Marriage Builders®
Posted By: JBKT16 Help Getting Started... - 05/13/15 02:14 PM
I am not sure where to start really. My husband and I have been married for 11 years with two wonderful little boys (ages 5 and 2.5). We went through a lot together to have them (numerous IVF's and miscarriages). We finally have the family we want but our marriage is not what it should be.

The stress that I feel over us has gotten so bad that I have gotten to the point where I yell and say things I shouldn't because I feel so desperate at times.

Just so you know I have been reading a lot on the site over the past few weeks and have learned all about the basic concepts. I understand that I should not yell no matter how bad he hurts me. I have also read His Needs Her Needs a little over a year ago and he was willing to complete the forms with me but did not actually read the book.

Now that I have read all through this site I see why the book was not that helpful to us at the time. There are so many other things that need to change before we can really start meeting each other's needs.

I have asked my husband to go through the program with me and he said he would after our last huge fall out, but that was over a week ago and nothing has happened. He was very sweet over Mother's Day and we had a great weekend, but the problems are already starting to show themselves again. Sometimes I think he just says "ok I will do whatever it takes" just to get me "off his back". He is so busy and he says "when have we had time?" But to me, if it was important enough we could have made a time.

There are some really deep issues going on and sometimes I am skeptical if anything could help them, even this program. When I read through it I can see that it is everything we are NOT doing, and I know it would help but.....

I am not sure what I am even wanting by writing this. How do you get going, how do you get started with someone who doesn't seem to realize how serious the problems are or who doesn't seem that interested in having a good marriage? I know he cares about me, I just don't think marriage is a priority for him. In fact, if he is willing to sit down with me, it feels as though it is only to get me to quit complaining (not because he loves me and wants a great marriage). Any insight, or just support would be great.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/13/15 02:28 PM
Enroll in the Marriage Builders online program since he already agreed to it.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/13/15 02:49 PM
He did not agree to enrolling in anything.... I printed out all the basic concepts and some of the additional articles off the site and he agreed to sitting down with me and going over them. Since, we have not "found time" to do this yet. I just walked the papers over to him (we work at the same school) and asked him to please read them word for word, and to please start thinking about them.

I am hoping that he can read them today and then when we do have the opportunity to talk he will have had time for some of it to soak in. I am pretty sure that he will have a huge problem with the "policy of joint agreement", which I believe would be the biggest help to our problems. To be honest, I was skeptical about it at first too, but the more I think about it the more I know we need it.

I guess I am wanting to know how to help encourage him to get on board. What to do when he thinks the ideas are crazy?!
Posted By: mrEureka Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/13/15 03:03 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
I guess I am wanting to know how to help encourage him to get on board. What to do when he thinks the ideas are crazy?!
What you are facing is extremely serious. The main reason women leave men is neglect, and neglect is what is going on in your marriage. Your husband needs to realize the seriousness of this situation. I don't know that simple encouragement is going to do that.

You need to start by insisting on his time. It is going to that a lot of time. For couples who have fallen out of love, it takes a minimum of 20 hour a week. If either of you is unwilling to invest that kind of time into your marriage, then you should start planning for a separation.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/13/15 03:05 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16


I guess I am wanting to know how to help encourage him to get on board. What to do when he thinks the ideas are crazy?!


JBK, how have you presented the program to him? What would be his benefit? Because if you are telling him the goal is to change him, that wouldn't be very attractive. How would he benefit from it?
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/13/15 03:20 PM
Originally Posted By: mrEureka
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
I guess I am wanting to know how to help encourage him to get on board. What to do when he thinks the ideas are crazy?!
What you are facing is extremely serious. The main reason women leave men is neglect, and neglect is what is going on in your marriage. Your husband needs to realize the seriousness of this situation. I don't know that simple encouragement is going to do that.

You need to start by insisting on his time. It is going to that a lot of time. For couples who have fallen out of love, it takes a minimum of 20 hour a week. If either of you is unwilling to invest that kind of time into your marriage, then you should start planning for a separation.


We do have serious problems that need to be addressed but I would not say that we are not in love anymore. We do still love each other and have a wonderful time together, when things are going well. But like I tell him, I know that no matter how good something is, in a matter of days we will be back to horrible fighting in just a matter of days. The problem is that the negatives are adding up a lot faster than the positives at this point, and I want to stop it before we are "out of love" with each-other.

I do feel neglected, especially of quality time together, but I think he honestly believes that there just isn't time/ money / etc to be able to spend a lot of time together. I don't believe he is conciously trying to make us suffer. Once we are home together he is exhausted and sometimes I am too.

What is hurting me even more than not spending the time together is the fact that he constantly feels threatened in our marriage and the way he handles it is destroying me. I have never cheated on him, never acted flirtatious, do not have male friends.... All the things that I would think would make someone feel so "unsafe" in a marriage, but no matter what I did and I have tried it all. He always feels like I am eventually going to cheat on him. He has said so many horrible things about me because of these feelings and majority of our problems stem from this.

Any advice??
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/13/15 03:25 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: JBKT16


I guess I am wanting to know how to help encourage him to get on board. What to do when he thinks the ideas are crazy?!


JBK, how have you presented the program to him? What would be his benefit? Because if you are telling him the goal is to change him, that wouldn't be very attractive. How would he benefit from it?


I totally understand what you are saying and that was basically the first thing he said "why so you can tell me everything that is wrong with me". But that is not at all what I am wanting. I want us to be better as a couple, both of us. I am willing to change things as well, it would not be just him. I would think he would be tired of the way our marriage is going as well. Who would want to live in constant battle with occasional good feelings in between?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/13/15 03:28 PM
]
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
I do feel neglected, especially of quality time together, but I think he honestly believes that there just isn't time/ money / etc to be able to spend a lot of time together. I don't believe he is conciously trying to make us suffer. Once we are home together he is exhausted and sometimes I am too.


JBK, the reason he believes this is because your marriage is a low priority to him. He manages to find the time to go to work, after all. I agree he is not trying to make you suffer, but neglecting you causes your suffering. It is the #1 reason women leave men. You are on a downward spiral right now and this will have a snowball effect as you go forward. Your marriage won't last under these conditions.

Because of that, you really need to take a serious approach to the situation. I would most certainly not allow him to bully and abuse you. When he does that, leave the room immediately while telling him you won't tolerate it.

Quote:
What is hurting me even more than not spending the time together is the fact that he constantly feels threatened in our marriage and the way he handles it is destroying me. I have never cheated on him, never acted flirtatious, do not have male friends..


Can you be more specific? What does he say bothers him? How does he express it?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/13/15 03:32 PM
Please read this article and tell me what you think: When to Call It Quits - Part 1
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/13/15 04:21 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
]
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
I do feel neglected, especially of quality time together, but I think he honestly believes that there just isn't time/ money / etc to be able to spend a lot of time together. I don't believe he is conciously trying to make us suffer. Once we are home together he is exhausted and sometimes I am too.


JBK, the reason he believes this is because your marriage is a low priority to him. He manages to find the time to go to work, after all. I agree he is not trying to make you suffer, but neglecting you causes your suffering. It is the #1 reason women leave men. You are on a downward spiral right now and this will have a snowball effect as you go forward. Your marriage won't last under these conditions.

Because of that, you really need to take a serious approach to the situation. I would most certainly not allow him to bully and abuse you. When he does that, leave the room immediately while telling him you won't tolerate it.



I totally agree that our marriage is low on the list of priorities, it always has been. Toward the beginning maybe two years into our marriage I began complaining about not being a priority to him. This was also at the time where he was really getting his career going, and that was definitely the priority. He is a teacher / football / baseball coach and coaching takes a lot of time. He quit coaching to make more money and have more time when we first got married. This did not work out for the best, he was miserable and I encouraged him to get back into coaching.

The coaching still interferes with our time, but it is no longer the only thing he cares about like it was before. He is a good dad and I think having kids really made him re- prioritize, especially after having our second child and our first began getting older. Now I feel that he cares about being a family man, but doesn't see the importance of he and I being priority even before the kids. I try to explain that us being bad, is not good for the kids. His response is " I will always be there for the kids".

Quote:
What is hurting me even more than not spending the time together is the fact that he constantly feels threatened in our marriage and the way he handles it is destroying me. I have never cheated on him, never acted flirtatious, do not have male friends..


Can you be more specific? What does he say bothers him? How does he express it?


He doesn't really express it at all. It comes out in sly remarks, dirty looks, etc. I tend to think our age difference is part of the problem. He is 44 and I am 31. He has never said that, I just often wonder, if we were the same age would he feel like this? It doesn't bother me at all, the age difference, in fact I always felt like we kind of meet in the middle (as far as maturity). But I can't change the fact that we are apart in age....

The other part that bothers him, that he brings up in a very mean manner is the fact that I had a past before him. (We were married only a year and a half after I graduated high school.) The thing is, he "had a past" before me as well. So how is he any better than me in that regard? He acts like I am some kind of slut, which couldn't be farther from the truth, and he knows it.

I'm not sure what the program says about bringing up the past (especially things that happened before marriage, before we even knew eachother, but I can't imagine that it is beneficial at all...)

Let me give you an example of something that hurt me yesterday....and this was after a wonderful weekend where I though we were making some progress.

We are both teachers at the same school, our hallways run perpendicular to each other. So we don't constantly see each-other but it is easy to if we need / want to. Before 6th period a coach that my husband coach's football with walked down my hall (which leads to another hall). He said hi as he walked by, but that was it. I was standing in the hall because it was passing period. Just a couple quick seconds later my husband came up to where our halls intersect and glared down the hall. Did not acknowledge me at all and then turned and walked away.

In my heart I knew it had something to do with that coach walking by, but I tried to convince myself otherwise. We had been so good, how could he be feeling this way already? I text him and asked why he looked at me like that down the hallway, I guess I was hoping there was some good explanation. He said I didn't look at you in anyway.... With a little more prodding he said he was looking for the coach. And acted like it was no big deal.

Later I asked about it again and he finally said I was seeing if he was going to you. I asked why would you see a random guy and automatically assume that he was coming to talk to me? But he basically refused to answer that question.Even once he saw that he was NOT talking to me, he still glared and walked away.

Everytime he tries to "catch me" doing something wrong, I never ever am, but that isn't good enough.

Sorry this is so long, there is so much to put down in words. I just want him to let me love him and he love me back without having to go through so much mental hell.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/13/15 04:35 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[The coaching still interferes with our time, but it is no longer the only thing he cares about like it was before. He is a good dad and I think having kids really made him re- prioritize, especially after having our second child and our first began getting older. Now I feel that he cares about being a family man, but doesn't see the importance of he and I being priority even before the kids. I try to explain that us being bad, is not good for the kids. His response is " I will always be there for the kids".


Thanks for your answer. He probably is a little insecure about you and that is ok. Many people are. What is not ok are his love busters. What is not ok is his bringing up the past and using it against you. It doesn't sound like you do anything to make him feel insecure, so I would assume this is just how he is.

I would keep this problem on the front burner until it is resolved, because your marriage is probably entering a free fall. When things get really bad, they get really bad FAST. But you can stop that. I would read the article I posted AND email Dr Harley and see if you can speak to him. [it is free] Dr Harley could even speak to him and help him understand.

Quote:
He is a good dad and I think having kids really made him re- prioritize, especially after having our second child and our first began getting older. Now I feel that he cares about being a family man, but doesn't see the importance of he and I being priority even before the kids.


The MOST important thing to your kids is your marriage. Their lives would be wrecked without it. It is the source of their security and well being. So he is not being a good dad if he places your marriage at such a low priority.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/13/15 04:35 PM
Here is the link to the radio show: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4200_radio.html
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/13/15 04:54 PM
Thank you again for the input. I had read the article earlier, but I just re-read it. The part that stands out to me is the "unconditional love", I do think that he feels my love should be there no matter what. And I want it to be there forever and do believe in unconditional love when referring to illness, financial troubles, those kind of things. But how can you honestly say you will love someone forever no matter how much pain and stress they cause you?

In fact, long before I ever read anything from Marriage Builders, he commented on how "his love doesn't waiver like mine does..." and made me feel guilty for the fact that my feelings towards him change depending on how I am treated. I never have stopped loving him, but there is definitely a sliding scale. Now after reading MB I know what we were basically explaining was the "love bank" in a nut shell.

I agree that he is insecure, that is who he is, at-least with me anyway. When I have said this to him he is very offended and feels like I am calling him names. What can I do to help the matter? I feel like I have tried everything, and nothing changes. The way he behaves because of these feelings are just wearing me down.

We need to improve on every aspect, but I feel that any progress will end as soon as he feels insecure again.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/13/15 05:19 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Thank you again for the input. I had read the article earlier, but I just re-read it. The part that stands out to me is the "unconditional love", I do think that he feels my love should be there no matter what. And I want it to be there forever and do believe in unconditional love when referring to illness, financial troubles, those kind of things. But how can you honestly say you will love someone forever no matter how much pain and stress they cause you?


Another point to consider about the illusion of "unconditional love" is to ask yourself if you would still love him if you were divorced and married to another man? Or if he beat you? Molested your children? UL just doesn't work in marriages, as you can see. It leads to neglect and abuse.

Quote:
I agree that he is insecure, that is who he is, at-least with me anyway. When I have said this to him he is very offended and feels like I am calling him names. What can I do to help the matter? I feel like I have tried everything, and nothing changes. The way he behaves because of these feelings are just wearing me down.


It is very offensive to him to hear this so I wouldn't tell him you think he is insecure. I would ask him instead "what can I do to make you feel safe?" Ask if there is anything you are doing that makes him feel uneasy. And keep in mind, his insecurity DOES NOT ENTITLE HIM to bully you.

Quote:
We need to improve on every aspect, but I feel that any progress will end as soon as he feels insecure again.


PLEASE write Dr Harley. He can get both you and your husband on the phone and get him on the right track. He is amazingly persuasive. And it does not cost you a PENNY. Nothing. They will even send you a free book. This is one way I got all my books for free over the years! smile
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/13/15 05:39 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Thank you again for the input. I had read the article earlier, but I just re-read it. The part that stands out to me is the "unconditional love", I do think that he feels my love should be there no matter what. And I want it to be there forever and do believe in unconditional love when referring to illness, financial troubles, those kind of things. But how can you honestly say you will love someone forever no matter how much pain and stress they cause you?


Another point to consider about the illusion of "unconditional love" is to ask yourself if you would still love him if you were divorced and married to another man? Or if he beat you? Molested your children? UL just doesn't work in marriages, as you can see. It leads to neglect and abuse.

Quote:
I agree that he is insecure, that is who he is, at-least with me anyway. When I have said this to him he is very offended and feels like I am calling him names. What can I do to help the matter? I feel like I have tried everything, and nothing changes. The way he behaves because of these feelings are just wearing me down.


It is very offensive to him to hear this so I wouldn't tell him you think he is insecure. I would ask him instead "what can I do to make you feel safe?" Ask if there is anything you are doing that makes him feel uneasy. And keep in mind, his insecurity DOES NOT ENTITLE HIM to bully you.

Quote:
We need to improve on every aspect, but I feel that any progress will end as soon as he feels insecure again.


PLEASE write Dr Harley. He can get both you and your husband on the phone and get him on the right track. He is amazingly persuasive. And it does not cost you a PENNY. Nothing. They will even send you a free book. This is one way I got all my books for free over the years! smile


I get what you are saying about unconditional love and I agree with you. When we have used the term in the past I was always thinking of things that come up in life and sticking together through them. Our infertility being one of them. Many couples can fall apart through years of infertility, but we stuck by each other, like we should have. Just loving someone no matter how they treat you is not right or fair to either partner....

I agree to your approach about the insecurity and have been trying not to use that word to him. But I have many years of "undoing" my approach on that issue. I guess I haven't been too sensitive with the issue because I just don't see what I have done so wrong as a wife to have a husband who is constantly implying that I am going to eventually cheat.... Especially when I am a very moral person who prides themselves on being upfront and honest. I would never cheat. For many reasons, I even told him not long after we married that I would leave long before I ever cheated. And he was SO offended by me saying this, I thought I was letting him know exactly how I felt, and I still feel this way today.

As far as trying to talk to the DR... How do you go about doing that? Also, considering there are such issues on many different levels, what exactly would I ask him for help with? One more thing about this, I think my husband would be very resentful if I tried to contact him, even if I think I am trying to help us. In fact, I honestly feel guilty even talking on here to y'all. He knows I have been reading about the program, but I just joined the forum today, to get some neutral perspective. I am such an honest person that I feel like I am somehow lying just coming on here and asking for advice.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/13/15 05:42 PM
I see the email link above, is that the address to try to speak with him?
Posted By: DidntQuit Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/13/15 05:57 PM
Yes. Copy your main posts from this thread and email the radio show. Give them your phone #. You can remain anonymous and don't have to go on the show.

This is an example of health and safety where you need help. You are seeking valid, positive help for your concerns and you should move forward.

Would you rather your husband lived in fear or losing you or have a chance to keep you? His best efforts are misguided and unsustainable.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/13/15 06:01 PM
Is the original post enough to show the issues at hand. To me the original post just got the conversation going, but did not really explain the issues. What would be more likely for me to get a response, copying the first post or attempting to paraphrase our problems?

Even if it is annonymous I would still need to tell him that I emailed and what the advice was, or we wouldn't really be able to implement it, right???
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/13/15 07:38 PM
Ok, I sent a lengthy letter to Dr H. Explaining the problems the best I could in a letter. How does the process work? I am assuming he can't respond to everyone. Does his team email back or what happens next? Thanks again for everything.
Posted By: DidntQuit Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/13/15 08:18 PM
Actually, you've explained the situation so well. Did you include your phone#?

If your husband finds out, let him know that you haven't been able to solve together the problems in your marriage and you believe that Dr. Harley can help you learn to create a great marriage where you both feel loved and cared for and he feels safe & protected from outside threats.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/13/15 09:51 PM
Where did you send the email?
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/13/15 09:54 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Ok, I sent a lengthy letter to Dr H. Explaining the problems the best I could in a letter. How does the process work? I am assuming he can't respond to everyone. Does his team email back or what happens next? Thanks again for everything.

What address did you send the email to?
Posted By: AnyWife Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/14/15 12:38 AM
Similar to you, my husband has said he will do the program with me but he continues to procrastinate starting.

In my case, this has gone on for months so I am not the best to be giving advice, but I believe I see a real improvement in getting my husband to take our problems seriously. And I think it's because I have improved how I broach the subject.

Like you I have been increasingly unhappy in my marriage and as MelodyLane said, once I acknowledged my unhappiness in my mind, it has had a snowball effect. When I began telling my husband I wanted to work on things his earlier reaction was always to dismiss/minimize/ridicule/distract regarding my concerns.

What I have found helps is to simply keep calmly (when possible - almost as if I'm commenting on the weather) keep repeating that I am not satisfied with the status quo. We may be getting along fine at the moment, but don't confuse that for my overall satisfaction.

He can dismiss the importance of my complaints and debate my logic all he wants, but he can't tell me I don't feel what I say I feel. I don't argue with him when he says I should not feel that but nor do I back down when he says he feels horrible that I feel bad and he's trying or whatever he says that attempts to kick the can down the road. It doesn't matter if I have good reason or not - I'm his wife, and this is where I'm at. I owe it to our marriage to let him know.

Below are some of the phrases I keep calmly using in conversation with him. If some of these are not good I trust the more experienced posters will offer corrections.

When he says he thinks everything is fine:
"I would like to do the MB program together."
"I am not happy."
"I feel very unhappy inside."
"I have a bad feeling in my chest all the time."

when he scoffs at a concern I've raised:
"It is important to me"
"It matters to me."
"This means a lot to me."
"I need this."
"I feel strongly about this."
"I'm telling you what I think."
"I'm telling you how I feel."

When he indicates MB is not a priority:

"I am worried about the future."
"I need to do something concrete about this now."
"I wake up in the middle of the night and I feel sick with anxiety"
"I am not okay."
"I would like a more fulfilling marriage and I think I could make you happier too."

When he says we will do it but then tosses up another reason to procrastinate:

"I need to know when we can do this."
"When, specifically, will we start?"
"I am not willing to keep feeling this way X time from now."

When we're discussing finances or something he considers non-marriage but I feel improving our marriage would improve everything:
"The number one thing that would reassure me right now for us to start the MB program."
"I would be less worried about this if I felt our marriage was as strong as it can be."

When he says he feels absolutely horrible about everything and it's all his fault but can we just leave the past behind us? (as if that's the end of the subject and I know nothing will change):
"I cannot tolerate being in this same situation in 6-months"
"I am reaching a breaking point. I need to see concrete changes."
"I love you but I cannot live like this another X months/years."
"I need specific deadlines that I can track."

When he offers some non MB solution in response to my complaints:
"I still want to do MB"
"I am happy to do that but MB is my number one priority."
"That's fine but I would like to also do MB."
"We can do that and MB simultaneously"
"I will be able to tolerate this problem better if I know we are improving our marriage."


BTW, I had never complained before I discovered MB and at first I was a bit ...unleashed when I started. Now I make my point and don't belabor it.

He is seeing his Dr. in a month regarding a medical issue he believes is an obstacle. We have agreed we will start the program after that. SO, like I said - I haven't gotten him to actually do the program yet, so maybe my advice is worthless, but I'm hoping my phrasing will help you because your husband's reaction sounds similar to mine in some ways.

I wish you the best of luck!
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/14/15 01:26 PM
Originally Posted By: SugarCane
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Ok, I sent a lengthy letter to Dr H. Explaining the problems the best I could in a letter. How does the process work? I am assuming he can't respond to everyone. Does his team email back or what happens next? Thanks again for everything.

What address did you send the email to?


Not to the right place aparently smile. Could someone send me in the right direction? Thanks, I sent it to the moderator....
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/14/15 01:30 PM
Where did you send it?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/14/15 01:31 PM
Did you read the link I posted?

Quote:
Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/14/15 02:43 PM
Oh, I'm sorry. I had read the response, apparently I completely overlooked the fact that you included the email address.... I apologize.

My husband was willing to read through all the basic concepts last night, very reluctantly, but was not willing to discuss any of it with me. The only comment he made at all is that "it was all stuff he had to do", which I don't see how he could think that it was all geared toward him....following the marriage builders program would require a lot of change in me as well. Which I would be glad to do if it helped our marriage.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/14/15 02:44 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Oh, I'm sorry. I had read the response, apparently I completely overlooked the fact that you included the email address.... I apologize.

My husband was willing to read through all the basic concepts last night, very reluctantly, but was not willing to discuss any of it with me. The only comment he made at all is that "it was all stuff he had to do", which I don't see how he could think that it was all geared toward him....following the marriage builders program would require a lot of change in me as well. Which I would be glad to do if it helped our marriage.


Did you send the email to mbradio@marriagebuilders.com?
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/14/15 03:20 PM
Yes I did and just got a reply. I don't know if they send a generic reply to everyone or if they read them first. The reply back said to call on a weekday morning and they would set up for me to call into the show.

Is this the typical response? Is there anyway to get any direct help without calling in? I honestly feel a little uncomfortable about that to be honest....even if it is anonymous.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/14/15 03:33 PM
Originally Posted By: AnyWife
Similar to you, my husband has said he will do the program with me but he continues to procrastinate starting.

In my case, this has gone on for months so I am not the best to be giving advice, but I believe I see a real improvement in getting my husband to take our problems seriously. And I think it's because I have improved how I broach the subject.

Like you I have been increasingly unhappy in my marriage and as MelodyLane said, once I acknowledged my unhappiness in my mind, it has had a snowball effect. When I began telling my husband I wanted to work on things his earlier reaction was always to dismiss/minimize/ridicule/distract regarding my concerns.

What I have found helps is to simply keep calmly (when possible - almost as if I'm commenting on the weather) keep repeating that I am not satisfied with the status quo. We may be getting along fine at the moment, but don't confuse that for my overall satisfaction.

He can dismiss the importance of my complaints and debate my logic all he wants, but he can't tell me I don't feel what I say I feel. I don't argue with him when he says I should not feel that but nor do I back down when he says he feels horrible that I feel bad and he's trying or whatever he says that attempts to kick the can down the road. It doesn't matter if I have good reason or not - I'm his wife, and this is where I'm at. I owe it to our marriage to let him know.

Below are some of the phrases I keep calmly using in conversation with him. If some of these are not good I trust the more experienced posters will offer corrections.

When he says he thinks everything is fine:
"I would like to do the MB program together."
"I am not happy."
"I feel very unhappy inside."
"I have a bad feeling in my chest all the time."

when he scoffs at a concern I've raised:
"It is important to me"
"It matters to me."
"This means a lot to me."
"I need this."
"I feel strongly about this."
"I'm telling you what I think."
"I'm telling you how I feel."

When he indicates MB is not a priority:

"I am worried about the future."
"I need to do something concrete about this now."
"I wake up in the middle of the night and I feel sick with anxiety"
"I am not okay."
"I would like a more fulfilling marriage and I think I could make you happier too."

When he says we will do it but then tosses up another reason to procrastinate:

"I need to know when we can do this."
"When, specifically, will we start?"
"I am not willing to keep feeling this way X time from now."

When we're discussing finances or something he considers non-marriage but I feel improving our marriage would improve everything:
"The number one thing that would reassure me right now for us to start the MB program."
"I would be less worried about this if I felt our marriage was as strong as it can be."

When he says he feels absolutely horrible about everything and it's all his fault but can we just leave the past behind us? (as if that's the end of the subject and I know nothing will change):
"I cannot tolerate being in this same situation in 6-months"
"I am reaching a breaking point. I need to see concrete changes."
"I love you but I cannot live like this another X months/years."
"I need specific deadlines that I can track."

When he offers some non MB solution in response to my complaints:
"I still want to do MB"
"I am happy to do that but MB is my number one priority."
"That's fine but I would like to also do MB."
"We can do that and MB simultaneously"
"I will be able to tolerate this problem better if I know we are improving our marriage."


BTW, I had never complained before I discovered MB and at first I was a bit ...unleashed when I started. Now I make my point and don't belabor it.

He is seeing his Dr. in a month regarding a medical issue he believes is an obstacle. We have agreed we will start the program after that. SO, like I said - I haven't gotten him to actually do the program yet, so maybe my advice is worthless, but I'm hoping my phrasing will help you because your husband's reaction sounds similar to mine in some ways.

I wish you the best of luck!


Thanks so much for the thoughtful reply. And the helpful examples. How do you keep calm when such hurtful words are being used toward you (like in my case)? That's what I am afraid I will have the most difficulty with. It has become so common for us to say harsh things to each-other that I don't think he even seems to notice it.

This morning for example. I told him that he always talks down to me and he replied "F you" and hung up on me. When I asked him later why he would go straight to something so horrible, he said that I wasn't telling the truth, that he doesn't talk down to me. Now, not much later, he is acting nice, like nothing even happened. It really seems like no big deal to him, when we talk this way to each-other.
Posted By: DidntQuit Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/14/15 03:41 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Yes I did and just got a reply. I don't know if they send a generic reply to everyone or if they read them first. The reply back said to call on a weekday morning and they would set up for me to call into the show.

Is this the typical response? Is there anyway to get any direct help without calling in? I honestly feel a little uncomfortable about that to be honest....even if it is anonymous.



It sounds like you didn't send your phone #. Otherwise you would have gotten a call instead of a basic reply.

I would call the # they gave and discuss the above concerns. Or email back with your #.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/14/15 04:14 PM
I guess my concern was them calling when my husband was around and it just leading to another fight between us.
Posted By: skd Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/14/15 04:24 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
I guess my concern was them calling when my husband was around and it just leading to another fight between us.
So you call them when he is not around. Find a time, find a way.
Posted By: living_well Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/14/15 04:27 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16

Thanks so much for the thoughtful reply. And the helpful examples. How do you keep calm when such hurtful words are being used toward you (like in my case)? That's what I am afraid I will have the most difficulty with. It has become so common for us to say harsh things to each-other that I don't think he even seems to notice it.

This morning for example. I told him that he always talks down to me and he replied "F you" and hung up on me. When I asked him later why he would go straight to something so horrible, he said that I wasn't telling the truth, that he doesn't talk down to me. Now, not much later, he is acting nice, like nothing even happened. It really seems like no big deal to him, when we talk this way to each-other.


You have DidntQuit posting on your thread which is perfect as she is an expert on this problem. Keep the faith, this programme is all about respect. You can turn this around if you are both willing.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/14/15 04:41 PM
Originally Posted By: living_well
Originally Posted By: JBKT16

Thanks so much for the thoughtful reply. And the helpful examples. How do you keep calm when such hurtful words are being used toward you (like in my case)? That's what I am afraid I will have the most difficulty with. It has become so common for us to say harsh things to each-other that I don't think he even seems to notice it.

This morning for example. I told him that he always talks down to me and he replied "F you" and hung up on me. When I asked him later why he would go straight to something so horrible, he said that I wasn't telling the truth, that he doesn't talk down to me. Now, not much later, he is acting nice, like nothing even happened. It really seems like no big deal to him, when we talk this way to each-other.


You have DidntQuit posting on your thread which is perfect as she is an expert on this problem. Keep the faith, this programme is all about respect. You can turn this around if you are both willing.


Thanks, all the advice is wonderful. I guess I am a little skeptical that such terrible habits can be broken, or that he will want to make the changes that it will take (on both ends), to help get us there.
Posted By: markos Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/14/15 05:14 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
We do have serious problems that need to be addressed but I would not say that we are not in love anymore. We do still love each other and have a wonderful time together, when things are going well. But like I tell him, I know that no matter how good something is, in a matter of days we will be back to horrible fighting in just a matter of days. The problem is that the negatives are adding up a lot faster than the positives at this point, and I want to stop it before we are "out of love" with each-other.


JBKT16, that sounds so much like how Prisca and I used to be. We didn't have a lot of trouble being in love with each other, when we weren't fighting, because we were great at meeting each other's emotional needs. But we were terrible at love busters, and therefore we were terrible at resolving conflicts.

Something I'm seeing here is that you need to keep problems on the front burner. Your husband agreed to do Marriage Builders with you, but then nothing happened for a week. Instead of letting a week go by, bring it up EVERY DAY which will show him it is important to you. Your husband engages in selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts. Each and every time this needs to go on a worksheet like Dr. Harley describes in Love Busters and you need to give him that worksheet each week and keep a record, with him striving to get that worksheet empty for an entire week at a time.

But for this to work you have got to bring it up and keep bringing it up - it is an issue, and it has got to stay an issue.

It is all right for him to feel jealous as long as he is not demanding, disrespectful, or angry about it. My wife feels very jealous of me at times and installs keyloggers on my computer and spyware and whatever else she feels is necessary to keep full tabs on me so that I couldn't have another relationship (even a casual acquaintance) without her knowledge - we are that integrated. But she is never demanding, disrespectful, or angry about it. If I do something that makes her feel bad, she tells me. If I continue to do something that makes her feel bad, especially a relationship that hurts her, she would simply expose that all over where it counts and let the rest of our family and friends reign me in - she wouldn't have to say anything demanding, disrespectful, or angry to me about it.

I believe you two need to work through the book Love Busters together, focusing on the first few chapters and exchanging the weekly worksheets Dr. Harley suggests, until the worksheets are empty. Then after Love Busters if you work through He Wins She Wins, you will probably have a great marriage, because it sounds like you already know how to meet each other's emotional needs. Along the way you will learn to resolve the difficulty that he is causing by not giving adequate time to meet your needs.

I would bring this up to your husband EVERY DAY. If he agrees one day, bring it up the next day until he does it. If he refuses or never gets around to it, keep bringing it up, but find out what Dr. Harley suggests.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/14/15 05:46 PM
I am hoping we will have a chance to talk some about it this evening. I have some questions about the undivided attention time. I know he will be skeptical and I want to be able to encourage the fact that we can really work in 15 hours.

We (really he) has a busy schedule that is physically exhausting at times. Once he is home he also wants to spend time with the kids, rest, take care of the yard, rest, etc. I know that our marriage needs to be first priority, and I want it to be, but I would love some examples of how or where you manage to fit your alone time in.

Also, we have two little boys that would need to be taken to grandparents houses anytime that we went out for a date. So I think we will need to find most of our hours at home, although I would love more "date nights" mixed in.

Anyone have any personal experiences they can share about how they found time to add more UA time in. Maybe give me a layout of how your typical week looks together. Especially if you have little ones.

Also, our kids are not "bad" by any means, but they can be very active little boys and are not the easiest to keep up with. Neither set of parents minds helping us out, but we do feel guilty asking for too much, because they have a hard time keeping up with them sometimes.
Posted By: DidntQuit Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/14/15 07:07 PM
I like Marcos' idea of working through Lovebusters and exchanging the worksheets.

Would your husband agree to doing that? When you bring it up and he agrees, the next question is "How would you feel about doing that on Saturday morning at 10am while the boys watch a video?"

In order to rework your schedule to fit in UA time, you will need to plan 20 hours in at the beginning of every week. (We usually lose hours.)

As far as babysitting- I would start looking for other options for sitters. That way you can use your parents in a pinch or for long UA weekends.

I would suggest that you do a forum search for UA time in the title. You will see lots of threads about how to make these things happen. You are not the first person with this issue.

Also, if you pay for archive access to the radio show, you can search by topic, and Dr. Harley and Joyce discuss things like this in detail.

Remember that Dr. Harley has written his books with men in mind. He says that his concepts come naturally to many women, so it is the man who he is trying to teach. We women get into some pretty bad habits too, so the earlier you start to work on them, the less baggage and change is necessary. Good thing that you are doing something about all of this now.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/14/15 07:19 PM
Originally Posted By: markos
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
We do have serious problems that need to be addressed but I would not say that we are not in love anymore. We do still love each other and have a wonderful time together, when things are going well. But like I tell him, I know that no matter how good something is, in a matter of days we will be back to horrible fighting in just a matter of days. The problem is that the negatives are adding up a lot faster than the positives at this point, and I want to stop it before we are "out of love" with each-other.


JBKT16, that sounds so much like how Prisca and I used to be. We didn't have a lot of trouble being in love with each other, when we weren't fighting, because we were great at meeting each other's emotional needs. But we were terrible at love busters, and therefore we were terrible at resolving conflicts.

Something I'm seeing here is that you need to keep problems on the front burner. Your husband agreed to do Marriage Builders with you, but then nothing happened for a week. Instead of letting a week go by, bring it up EVERY DAY which will show him it is important to you. Your husband engages in selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts. Each and every time this needs to go on a worksheet like Dr. Harley describes in Love Busters and you need to give him that worksheet each week and keep a record, with him striving to get that worksheet empty for an entire week at a time.

But for this to work you have got to bring it up and keep bringing it up - it is an issue, and it has got to stay an issue.

It is all right for him to feel jealous as long as he is not demanding, disrespectful, or angry about it. My wife feels very jealous of me at times and installs keyloggers on my computer and spyware and whatever else she feels is necessary to keep full tabs on me so that I couldn't have another relationship (even a casual acquaintance) without her knowledge - we are that integrated. But she is never demanding, disrespectful, or angry about it. If I do something that makes her feel bad, she tells me. If I continue to do something that makes her feel bad, especially a relationship that hurts her, she would simply expose that all over where it counts and let the rest of our family and friends reign me in - she wouldn't have to say anything demanding, disrespectful, or angry to me about it.

I believe you two need to work through the book Love Busters together, focusing on the first few chapters and exchanging the weekly worksheets Dr. Harley suggests, until the worksheets are empty. Then after Love Busters if you work through He Wins She Wins, you will probably have a great marriage, because it sounds like you already know how to meet each other's emotional needs. Along the way you will learn to resolve the difficulty that he is causing by not giving adequate time to meet your needs.

I would bring this up to your husband EVERY DAY. If he agrees one day, bring it up the next day until he does it. If he refuses or never gets around to it, keep bringing it up, but find out what Dr. Harley suggests.


Thank you very much for your reply. I can relate to what you are saying but I don't know if I would say "we are great at meeting each other's needs", but we do get along, enjoy each other's company and have things in common....when we are not fighting. The problem is now that most of the time it feels like neutral ground or we are fighting. He is also complaining some lately that I am not "fun or happy" anymore. Which is something I naturally am (happy / easy going). But for some reason he is not understanding that it is really hard to get "fun" with someone who just made you feel so poorly the day before. I am very forgiving and quick to move on but it is all starting to catch up to me.

But no matter what, you are correct it is the "love busters" that are killing us. I think if they were taken care of we would atleast begin to meet each other's needs....or at least we wouldn't be taking away from any positive feelings anymore.

Before the negative stuff got sooo big in our marriage, I never felt like we had / made enough time together. Even before kids came along. So you can imagine that after kids it has been even harder.

I do have a question for you about the jealousy issue, and the way y'all handle it. If this is too personal to ask, then I apologize... Has there been a past affair that created the jealousy or was it always there? Does it not bother you at all that she feels this way at all about you? This is something that has really hurt me time and time again throughout our marriage. I feel as though he has no faith in me or us, and I have never done anything to bring those feelings on. At first I tried to be considerate and understanding, but it seemed to only make the matter worse.

But you are right the jealousy / insecurity however it is stated, comes along with ugly looks, horrible words, demands, etc. So many it wouldn't bother me if he felt that way and knew how to handle it. At this point I can never imagine what that would be like. Everything associated with these feelings of his is negative or hurtful.

I am not trying to be skeptical. I love him and want the best for us and for him. I just feel worried that any progress will be undermined by the issue that we have had from day 1.

Thanks so much for the help!

Posted By: AnyWife Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/14/15 07:26 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16

...How do you keep calm when such hurtful words are being used toward you (like in my case)?...

This morning for example. I told him thathe always talks down to me and he replied "F you" and hung up on me. When I asked him later why he would go straight to something so horrible, he said that I wasn't telling the truth, that he doesn't talk down to me. Now, not much later, he is acting nice, like nothing even happened. It really seems like no big deal to him, when we talk this way to each-other.


I'll let the experts answer this in more detail - it sounds like Didn't Quit may have a lot more success here than me, but a couple thoughts:

My husband doesn't say hurtful things to me the way yours does so I am not dealing with that. Where he sounds similar to yours is that he is very avoidant/evasive of dealing with issues. He has several tactics, the main one to simply pretend the issues don't exist and go about his business as if everything is fine no matter what I say/do.

Regardless, I don't always keep calm. But I keep practicing and I am getting better, it's becoming more natural. When I lose my cool I reevaluate later (what will I say next time?) so I am ready.

Keep in mind that even the experts on here say it takes practice. I certainly don't always do this right. When I catch myself getting angry/accusatory now I try to just stop talking, exit, and calm down. But I do bring it back up because otherwise I'm rewarding his avoidance tactics.

Regarding the text I underlined:
First: Try to never start a complaint with "You always." "You always..." automatically brings out defensiveness and "talk down to me" may not be concrete enough for the garden variety man to comprehend.

I think a better approach than "why do you talk down to me" might be:
"I felt horrible when you said XYZ." (be specific about what he said) "I feel so frustrated and angry." or "I really cannot describe how bad that makes me feel." or "I actually feel sick to my stomach and find it hard to breathe..."

(I may be getting melodramatic but I literally do feel that in response to some things my husband says/does and I have started calmly informing him.)

When he acts jealous and unfairly accuses you of things you might also try (With genuine curiosity and concern, not indignation and hostility):

"Why do you think that?"
"What, specifically, have I said or done that makes you think that?"

If he tries to change gears like he was just joking or you're over-reacting, switch to "That isn't funny at all to me." or "I am NOT okay with you saying that to me." Or some of the above "I feel..." statements.

Try Emailing him? Prisca and Markos have a great marriage and they say they still use email for complaints.

Last night, I used email for the first time with (I think) success.
Not long after my post to you, we were having a nice conversation but he was talking really loud in a small room. I politely asked "Can you lower your voice?" He said "I hate it when you say that!" and stormed out of the room. Then refused to talk to me seriously and ridiculed my aversion to loud noise (from another room). I was so angry I wanted to smash something.

Later after we both calmed down he apologized but I sent him an email regardless saying I loved him but also saying that I need to be able to ask him to lower his voice and I stated some other concerns. I won't post it all here because re-reading it I think it was probably not as DJ-free as I believed at the time. But I did have this one sentence that I think is pretty good:

"I feel furious and hopeless for our future when I am trying to talk to you seriously and you walk away or make jokes or ignore me and dismiss me and my concerns."

LASTLY
I wanted to add to the phrases I've been using in my first post to you - I have also been telling him that the state of our marriage/lives is starting to affect my health. Because it really is and how can he argue that change is not necessary if my health is at risk?

Listening to MB radio every day also helps me gain perspective.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/14/15 07:33 PM
Originally Posted By: DidntQuit
I like Marcos' idea of working through Lovebusters and exchanging the worksheets.

Would your husband agree to doing that? When you bring it up and he agrees, the next question is "How would you feel about doing that on Saturday morning at 10am while the boys watch a video?"

In order to rework your schedule to fit in UA time, you will need to plan 20 hours in at the beginning of every week. (We usually lose hours.)

As far as babysitting- I would start looking for other options for sitters. That way you can use your parents in a pinch or for long UA weekends.

I would suggest that you do a forum search for UA time in the title. You will see lots of threads about how to make these things happen. You are not the first person with this issue.

Also, if you pay for archive access to the radio show, you can search by topic, and Dr. Harley and Joyce discuss things like this in detail.

Remember that Dr. Harley has written his books with men in mind. He says that his concepts come naturally to many women, so it is the man who he is trying to teach. We women get into some pretty bad habits too, so the earlier you start to work on them, the less baggage and change is necessary. Good thing that you are doing something about all of this now.


Thanks so much for the advice. I will search for some threads about the issue; I'm sure we aren't the only ones with the same problem. I guess I was hoping someone would share something like..."we spend an hour together at night, go on one date night a week..." something just to see what it looks like for others.

As for the babysitting... finances are an issue. In fact this is the first year we have had access to the grandparents for help. We had been living about an hour and a half away from them. So they could help occasionally but it had to be planned in advance and they had to spend the night.... We just moved this year to be closer to everyone. In fact, one of the main reasons I wanted to be back was to have the support and HELP of the grandparents (without taking advantage of them). We never went anywhere before without the kids because we simply couldn't afford the date night, much less the babysitter it would take to make it happen. We occasionally had sitters for events we were forced to go to.

We honestly have very tight finances and our already budgeting down to the minimum and can't afford to hire babysitters. So the options are honestly spend some time together at home somehow, or ask for family help.
Posted By: markos Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/14/15 07:44 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Also, our kids are not "bad" by any means, but they can be very active little boys and are not the easiest to keep up with. Neither set of parents minds helping us out, but we do feel guilty asking for too much, because they have a hard time keeping up with them sometimes.


We bring the grandparents a very nice crock pot dinner which makes them much more eager to keep the kids. smile
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/14/15 07:50 PM
Originally Posted By: AnyWife
Originally Posted By: JBKT16

...How do you keep calm when such hurtful words are being used toward you (like in my case)?...

This morning for example. I told him thathe always talks down to me and he replied "F you" and hung up on me. When I asked him later why he would go straight to something so horrible, he said that I wasn't telling the truth, that he doesn't talk down to me. Now, not much later, he is acting nice, like nothing even happened. It really seems like no big deal to him, when we talk this way to each-other.


I'll let the experts answer this in more detail - it sounds like Didn't Quit may have a lot more success here than me, but a couple thoughts:

My husband doesn't say hurtful things to me the way yours does so I am not dealing with that. Where he sounds similar to yours is that he is very avoidant/evasive of dealing with issues. He has several tactics, the main one to simply pretend the issues don't exist and go about his business as if everything is fine no matter what I say/do.

Regardless, I don't always keep calm. But I keep practicing and I am getting better, it's becoming more natural. When I lose my cool I reevaluate later (what will I say next time?) so I am ready.

Keep in mind that even the experts on here say it takes practice. I certainly don't always do this right. When I catch myself getting angry/accusatory now I try to just stop talking, exit, and calm down. But I do bring it back up because otherwise I'm rewarding his avoidance tactics.

Regarding the text I underlined:
First: Try to never start a complaint with "You always." "You always..." automatically brings out defensiveness and "talk down to me" may not be concrete enough for the garden variety man to comprehend.

I think a better approach than "why do you talk down to me" might be:
"I felt horrible when you said XYZ." (be specific about what he said) "I feel so frustrated and angry." or "I really cannot describe how bad that makes me feel." or "I actually feel sick to my stomach and find it hard to breathe..."

(I may be getting melodramatic but I literally do feel that in response to some things my husband says/does and I have started calmly informing him.)

When he acts jealous and unfairly accuses you of things you might also try (With genuine curiosity and concern, not indignation and hostility):

"Why do you think that?"
"What, specifically, have I said or done that makes you think that?"

If he tries to change gears like he was just joking or you're over-reacting, switch to "That isn't funny at all to me." or "I am NOT okay with you saying that to me." Or some of the above "I feel..." statements.

Try Emailing him? Prisca and Markos have a great marriage and they say they still use email for complaints.

Last night, I used email for the first time with (I think) success.
Not long after my post to you, we were having a nice conversation but he was talking really loud in a small room. I politely asked "Can you lower your voice?" He said "I hate it when you say that!" and stormed out of the room. Then refused to talk to me seriously and ridiculed my aversion to loud noise (from another room). I was so angry I wanted to smash something.

Later after we both calmed down he apologized but I sent him an email regardless saying I loved him but also saying that I need to be able to ask him to lower his voice and I stated some other concerns. I won't post it all here because re-reading it I think it was probably not as DJ-free as I believed at the time. But I did have this one sentence that I think is pretty good:

"I feel furious and hopeless for our future when I am trying to talk to you seriously and you walk away or make jokes or ignore me and dismiss me and my concerns."

LASTLY
I wanted to add to the phrases I've been using in my first post to you - I have also been telling him that the state of our marriage/lives is starting to affect my health. Because it really is and how can he argue that change is not necessary if my health is at risk?

Listening to MB radio every day also helps me gain perspective.


Thank you so much for this advice and specific examples. I really need help in this area. And you are right that I need to be more specific to him instead of generalities, he has told me that as well. Sometimes it hurts to even repeat the things he has done or said.

As far as telling him my health is suffering and some of the other comments you have made; I am saying all of those things, because they are very true. In fact, I have had so many heart palpitations, muscle aches, headaches, that I know are directly related to the stress I feel with us. When I say these things sometimes he takes me seriously and sometimes he acts like I am exaggerating.

I have tried so many times to ask what have I done to make you feel these ways, what can I do to help you not feel these ways.... But I never ever get any direct answers. When he does come up with an answer I never feel like he owns his feelings, it feels like he comes up with something to justify what he is feeling that is not really the reason.

For example, the other morning I had to go to a training for work. Class begins at 7:30 on normal, but the training didn't start until 8. So he still had to be at work at 7:30 where I had a few extra minutes to get ready. I guess he began feeling uncomfortable about the fact that I would not be on campus that day and started treating me strange. When I asked why he was acting the way he was, at first he played it off. Then a little later he said "you sure are getting ready early, why are you so worried about getting ready today..." This may sound innocent, but the tone in his voice and the look on his face just made my stomach cringe. The thing was I wasn't doing anything differently. I woke up a few minutes later than usual and then began going through my morning routine, exactly as normal. I wasn't dressed up or anything like that. I am always running late getting to school in the morning because I am responsible for everything, getting both kids ready, myself ready, letting the dog out, taking the kids to school... So I saw the later start time as "ok, I will wake up a little later but hopefully I can manage to be on time". But in his mind he justified treating me poorly because he convinced himself I was doing things differently. Why is that a reason for jealousy, especially when it wasn't true? I don't think he will admit to me or himself what he is really feeling.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/14/15 08:03 PM
Quote:
We (really he) has a busy schedule that is physically exhausting at times. Once he is home he also wants to spend time with the kids, rest, take care of the yard, rest, etc. I know that our marriage needs to be first priority, and I want it to be, but I would love some examples of how or where you manage to fit your alone time in.


I respectfully suggest that you are coming about this from the wrong angle.

We don't "manage to fit our time in." We schedule our time together first, and then we fit in the other stuff around it.

Quote:
Also, we have two little boys that would need to be taken to grandparents houses anytime that we went out for a date. So I think we will need to find most of our hours at home, although I would love more "date nights" mixed in.

UA time at home will not be near as effective as going outr on dates. It will not fill your lovebanks. Make it a priority to get out of the house on dates.

Quote:
I do have a question for you about the jealousy issue, and the way y'all handle it. If this is too personal to ask, then I apologize... Has there been a past affair that created the jealousy or was it always there? Does it not bother you at all that she feels this way at all about you? This is something that has really hurt me time and time again throughout our marriage. I feel as though he has no faith in me or us, and I have never done anything to bring those feelings on. At first I tried to be considerate and understanding, but it seemed to only make the matter worse.

Markos has never had an affair. He welcomes me checking up on him because:
1. He has nothing to hide
2. It alleviates any fears or "insecurities" that I have. When I see that he's really not up to anything, it CREATES trust.
Posted By: DidntQuit Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/14/15 08:06 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
.

We honestly have very tight finances and our already budgeting down to the minimum and can't afford to hire babysitters. So the options are honestly spend some time together at home somehow, or ask for family help.



You will need to do BOTH. Spend some time together at home, ask family for help, and readjust the finances to pay a babysitter to get out of the house, to leave all those things behind for awhile. I know what a limited budget is, and there IS a way. It just takes being creative. Get used to it now, and consider it a marital care cost.

Searching the threads will give you access to the ideas of many more people than the ones who happen to be posting right now. I know for a fact that Prisca and Marcos have posted their schedule and I have posted ideas. Your questions and concerns in that are a pretty generic and have been discussed over and over.
Posted By: markos Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/14/15 08:10 PM
Originally Posted By: Prisca
Markos has never had an affair. He welcomes me checking up on him because:
1. He has nothing to hide
2. It alleviates any fears or "insecurities" that I have. When I see that he's really not up to anything, it CREATES trust.


It also helps make us fantastically close to each other!
Posted By: buildsherhouse Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/14/15 08:12 PM
Originally Posted By: markos
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Also, our kids are not "bad" by any means, but they can be very active little boys and are not the easiest to keep up with. Neither set of parents minds helping us out, but we do feel guilty asking for too much, because they have a hard time keeping up with them sometimes.


We bring the grandparents a very nice crock pot dinner which makes them much more eager to keep the kids. smile
in addition to leaving food for babysitters I also try to keep in reserve a few games, books and movies that I know will hold their attention if the babysitter gets worn out.
I also schedule the day to get the older ones worn out and exercised before hand and the little ones napped and rested and cheerful.

I think you are lucky to have grandparents available. I pray every day that someone who is alone and is lonely will be sent our way to be our adopted grandma in a mutually beneficial way.

We pay for teen babysitters as much as can ( same set up where food and backup entertainment is already planned and the only task is to keep the kids safe) , and I am still looking for ways to trade babysitting with other local moms. Hasn't worked out for me yet, but has for others in other areas.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/14/15 08:15 PM
Quote:
I have tried so many times to ask what have I done to make you feel these ways, what can I do to help you not feel these ways.... But I never ever get any direct answers. When he does come up with an answer I never feel like he owns his feelings, it feels like he comes up with something to justify what he is feeling that is not really the reason.

For example, the other morning I had to go to a training for work. Class begins at 7:30 on normal, but the training didn't start until 8. So he still had to be at work at 7:30 where I had a few extra minutes to get ready. I guess he began feeling uncomfortable about the fact that I would not be on campus that day and started treating me strange. When I asked why he was acting the way he was, at first he played it off. Then a little later he said "you sure are getting ready early, why are you so worried about getting ready today..." This may sound innocent, but the tone in his voice and the look on his face just made my stomach cringe. The thing was I wasn't doing anything differently. I woke up a few minutes later than usual and then began going through my morning routine, exactly as normal. I wasn't dressed up or anything like that. I am always running late getting to school in the morning because I am responsible for everything, getting both kids ready, myself ready, letting the dog out, taking the kids to school... So I saw the later start time as "ok, I will wake up a little later but hopefully I can manage to be on time". But in his mind he justified treating me poorly because he convinced himself I was doing things differently. Why is that a reason for jealousy, especially when it wasn't true? I don't think he will admit to me or himself what he is really feeling.

You are being very disrespectful here.
Being disrespectful and treating his fear as nothing will not ease his fears at all.

What are you doing to make yourself completely transparent to him? What are you doing to become integrated?
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/14/15 08:17 PM
Originally Posted By: DidntQuit
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
.

We honestly have very tight finances and our already budgeting down to the minimum and can't afford to hire babysitters. So the options are honestly spend some time together at home somehow, or ask for family help.



You will need to do BOTH. Spend some time together at home, ask family for help, and readjust the finances to pay a babysitter to get out of the house,

UA at home is not effective.

Posted By: markos Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/14/15 08:19 PM
Originally Posted By: Prisca
UA at home is not effective.


UA time at home will not work because he will ignore her. He will not give her his undivided attention. He will divide his attention between her and things at home. Even if the children are asleep.

No woman who is having trouble getting her husband to do UA should be encouraged to do UA at home.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/14/15 11:20 PM
Originally Posted By: DidntQuit
[You will need to do BOTH. Spend some time together at home, ask family for help


JB, when DQ says you need to do both, keep in mind that the vast majority of your UA time needs to be spent out of the house on DATES. You should strive for 4 - 4 hour dates. That is 16 hours. It shoudl be followed by an hour at home alone in your room.. So that is another 4-6 hours in your own bed.

UA time spent at home is largely useless becasue it is too easy to get distracted by just about anything.

I would sit down wtih a weekly schedule and schedule out your dates. After that, schedule in your working time. Then add some family time. THEN you can schedule time for less importatnt things like coaching, hobbies, etc, if there is still time.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/14/15 11:22 PM
Originally Posted By: markos

UA time at home will not work because he will ignore her. He will not give her his undivided attention. He will divide his attention between her and things at home. Even if the children are asleep.

No woman who is having trouble getting her husband to do UA should be encouraged to do UA at home.


So agree. It is useless and she will only be competing with absolutely everything else. Not even Dr Harley and Joyce spend their UA time at home. It is too distracting.
Posted By: DidntQuit Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 02:41 AM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: DidntQuit
[You will need to do BOTH. Spend some time together at home, ask family for help


JB, when DQ says you need to do both, keep in mind that the vast majority of your UA time needs to be spent out of the house on DATES. You should strive for 4 - 4 hour dates. That is 16 hours. It shoudl be followed by an hour at home alone in your room.. So that is another 4-6 hours in your own bed.

UA time spent at home is largely useless becasue it is too easy to get distracted by just about anything.

I would sit down wtih a weekly schedule and schedule out your dates. After that, schedule in your working time. Then add some family time. THEN you can schedule time for less importatnt things like coaching, hobbies, etc, if there is still time.


I'm sorry all, if what I said was misleading. Mel, your first paragraph here is what I was trying to prepare her for. There is some time needed at home for things like planning mtg., doing worksheets,lessons and of course, bedroom time. I agree that getting out of the house looking your best on a 4 hr. date is a must, especially when there are distractions at home.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 06:41 AM
jkbt, Welcome! Oh my goodness it sounds like you have an uphill climb there, with young kids and such a deep disrespect that your husband would curse you like that.

For UA time, when my kids were young, we took turns having the kids do sleepovers Friday nights with another family with a daughter the same age as mine. So then you get a 4 hour date Friday night, and potentially you could do a date Saturday morning as well. Or maybe your kids can sleepover with grandparents Friday nights. Prisca and markos go to a gym that has babysitting for date nights, I wish I had thought of that!

It sounds like after lack of UA, Angry Outbursts are the biggest obstacle you two face. Have you read Angry Outbursts?

Quote:
Prior to the incident where a man was staring at you, you may not have been as sexually interested in him as he would have liked. A transcript of the discussion you had on the fifth day may have helped us fully understand what was developing between the two of you.

At the dinner you may have looked particularly appealing to your husband, and he may have felt inadequate. His intimidation may have sparked his argument with you, which was his attempt to put himself back into a position of control. But instead, you became angry with him and rejected him sexually by going to bed with your clothes on. That made him feel even more inadequate, and he felt he had to increase his abuse to try to regain control. He may have thought he needed to teach you a lesson so you would think twice about refusing him sex again....

The behavior of your husband that you describe to me in your letter is abuse, pure and simple. I'm sure you retaliated with your own abuse of him, and that's something you should learn to avoid, too.... There is no excuse for him accusing you of wanting to go to bed with a man that looked at you -- or wanting to do anything for that matter. He is being disrespectful and abusive.

There's another side to the story, of course. His side. He would explain to me that you do and say things that hurt his feelings, and whenever you do, he doesn't believe you love him, or ever did love him. He thinks you do not agree with him enough, and that proves you don't support him. He may think that whenever you prefer not to make love to him it's evidence that you don't love him enough.

But I would point out to him that your love for him is HIS problem, not yours. You love him to the extent that he is meeting your needs and not hurting you. Granted, there are times that he has done an excellent job meeting your needs, but there are other times when he's been awful....

Those are my opinions and observations. Now, what to do about it.

I would look him right in the eye and say to him, "Listen Buster, do you love me? Do you care at all about how I feel? If you do, you sure have a funny way of showing it! I love you and want to spend the rest of my life with you. But it sure will be unpleasant for both of us if you keep treating me this way. You are not doing things that I admire, you're doing things that I find disgusting!"

If he says, "Fine, then lets just get a divorce and end it all."

To that I would say, "It's up to you. I married you for life, but if you want a divorce, it's your call. If you want to be in a love relationship with me, however, you're going to have to treat me much better than you have been treating me. From this moment on you will never again bring up my affair, and if you are upset with me, you will have to treat me with respect until we can solve the problem. I will agree to do the same with you. If you are upset with our sexual relationship, I want us to discuss it as adults and solve it with mutual respect. I refuse to be treated like this, even by the man I love."

It may take him a while to digest what you say, and he may leave in a huff. But once it sinks in, he will probably agree with you that at least some of the problem is his.

Pay close attention to my section on Love Busters. You both need to work on avoiding Angry Outbursts. You probably need to work on avoiding Disrespectful Judgments and Selfish Demands as well. While you're at it, you may want complete my Emotional Needs Questionnaire to see if you are failing to meet any of each other's needs.

I think your marriage is secure, at least for the short run. Your husband, to his credit, still has your love. But he won't have it long if he gets away with this one. The most encouraging part of this crisis is that it may provide the catalyst to help you straighten your marriage out once and for all.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 02:59 PM
I was never meaning any disrespect to my husband. And I appreciate all the advice. To be honest, I don't think that some of the suggestions are reasonable here. Or don't fully understand our situation.

I do care about his feelings and feel bad and want to help him through his feelings of insecurity. I thought I had been doing everything I possibly could to do that, and it never got any better (it never "created trust" as mentioned before). In fact the more transparent I have tried to be, the more and more these problems happen. What am I supposed to do when transparency is not enough, and when the way he handles these feelings is just downright mean and disrespectful?

I am not trying to be difficult and I completely "buy in" to everything about the program, but I think there are deep issues here and I don't know if I can help him through them.

Off of the issue of feeling insecure, and on to the UA for a minute. Someone mentioned about "coaching and other activities" later..... I'm not sure if I made the coaching part clear. This is not a hobby where he coaches little league or anything like that. This is his job. Our marriage needs to be first, which it is not now, but our family couldn't survive without us having jobs. There is no way for our UA time to come before his job. I am going to have to get creative with how to find the time after his job.

I know some of you may suggest "he should do a different kind of job". This is something he did at the beginning of our marriage (the first 2 years), and it nearly killed us. He was miserable and I was to the point where I didn't hardly like to be around him. It is a much happier person in the career that he is very good at and I want him to have that in his life. Can't he have a successful career and marriage?

As for the dates being out of the house, I understand what everyone is saying, and you are likely right that the attention wouldn't necessarily be there. I guess what I was thinking was earlier in our marriage we used to get in bed a little early, and a lot of time we would goof around together, sometimes have good conversation and sometimes it would turn intimate. If we could somehow bring that back that would at least get some hours started and then try to work in the dates as well?

Since we are both teachers and the summer is getting really close I am hoping that we are able to set a standard for spending time together since it will be much easier to accomplish. Last night he did follow through and brought up the program and we talked quite a bit about it. I think this is a big step forward, but we shall see. He agreed to sitting down Sunday evening and talking about what all was coming up for the next week and to schedule our hours together. Hopefully this Sunday will be our first time to do this.

I very much appreciate all the advice, and I understand people come here and are skeptical, but I honestly feel like our personal situation is not being taken into account. Like the finances for example....

We have come a long way on our finances we spent thousands and thousands of dollars attempting to have our children, much of this was through loans. Some of which have been paid, some of which we are still working on. Our two year old began having medical issues at the age of about 14 months (he is 2.5 now) so we have been seeing 3 different specialist, along with repeated trips to the regular dr. He has also had two upper endoscopes and one colonoscopy in the last years worth of time. I found out I was extremely anemic during the middle of this time period, and had to do very expensive iron infusions. Have not been able to do some of the other medical things I need to do because of finances. Not trying to share our life story, just think that there are circumstances that are not the same for each couple. I think it is assumed that maybe we can handle our finances better and that there is money somewhere. Which I understand because a few years back that would have been exactly true.... But at this point, we are actually being very smart with our money, and trying to come back from the debt that we are in as well as manage that huge pile of medical bills I have sitting right in front of me.

So with that being said, I do understand that our marriage has to be fixed at all cost. I just think I am going to have to get more creative at times to make that happen.

I think someone mentioned sleep-overs. That is hopefully an option in the future, but at this point our kids are too little for that (they aren't even in school yet), plus the fact that we are new to the area and besides our family we don't have friends with little kids, or anything like that.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 03:02 PM
Originally Posted By: NewEveryDay
jkbt, Welcome! Oh my goodness it sounds like you have an uphill climb there, with young kids and such a deep disrespect that your husband would curse you like that.

For UA time, when my kids were young, we took turns having the kids do sleepovers Friday nights with another family with a daughter the same age as mine. So then you get a 4 hour date Friday night, and potentially you could do a date Saturday morning as well. Or maybe your kids can sleepover with grandparents Friday nights. Prisca and markos go to a gym that has babysitting for date nights, I wish I had thought of that!

It sounds like after lack of UA, Angry Outbursts are the biggest obstacle you two face. Have you read Angry Outbursts?

Quote:
Prior to the incident where a man was staring at you, you may not have been as sexually interested in him as he would have liked. A transcript of the discussion you had on the fifth day may have helped us fully understand what was developing between the two of you.

At the dinner you may have looked particularly appealing to your husband, and he may have felt inadequate. His intimidation may have sparked his argument with you, which was his attempt to put himself back into a position of control. But instead, you became angry with him and rejected him sexually by going to bed with your clothes on. That made him feel even more inadequate, and he felt he had to increase his abuse to try to regain control. He may have thought he needed to teach you a lesson so you would think twice about refusing him sex again....

The behavior of your husband that you describe to me in your letter is abuse, pure and simple. I'm sure you retaliated with your own abuse of him, and that's something you should learn to avoid, too.... There is no excuse for him accusing you of wanting to go to bed with a man that looked at you -- or wanting to do anything for that matter. He is being disrespectful and abusive.

There's another side to the story, of course. His side. He would explain to me that you do and say things that hurt his feelings, and whenever you do, he doesn't believe you love him, or ever did love him. He thinks you do not agree with him enough, and that proves you don't support him. He may think that whenever you prefer not to make love to him it's evidence that you don't love him enough.

But I would point out to him that your love for him is HIS problem, not yours. You love him to the extent that he is meeting your needs and not hurting you. Granted, there are times that he has done an excellent job meeting your needs, but there are other times when he's been awful....

Those are my opinions and observations. Now, what to do about it.

I would look him right in the eye and say to him, "Listen Buster, do you love me? Do you care at all about how I feel? If you do, you sure have a funny way of showing it! I love you and want to spend the rest of my life with you. But it sure will be unpleasant for both of us if you keep treating me this way. You are not doing things that I admire, you're doing things that I find disgusting!"

If he says, "Fine, then lets just get a divorce and end it all."

To that I would say, "It's up to you. I married you for life, but if you want a divorce, it's your call. If you want to be in a love relationship with me, however, you're going to have to treat me much better than you have been treating me. From this moment on you will never again bring up my affair, and if you are upset with me, you will have to treat me with respect until we can solve the problem. I will agree to do the same with you. If you are upset with our sexual relationship, I want us to discuss it as adults and solve it with mutual respect. I refuse to be treated like this, even by the man I love."

It may take him a while to digest what you say, and he may leave in a huff. But once it sinks in, he will probably agree with you that at least some of the problem is his.

Pay close attention to my section on Love Busters. You both need to work on avoiding Angry Outbursts. You probably need to work on avoiding Disrespectful Judgments and Selfish Demands as well. While you're at it, you may want complete my Emotional Needs Questionnaire to see if you are failing to meet any of each other's needs.

I think your marriage is secure, at least for the short run. Your husband, to his credit, still has your love. But he won't have it long if he gets away with this one. The most encouraging part of this crisis is that it may provide the catalyst to help you straighten your marriage out once and for all.


I have ready angry outburst and you are correct. This is a huge part of our problem. Both he and I. Once I get talked to so horribly I end up exploding. I can honeslty say that for the last week or so (since beginning to read here) that I have really been working on my reactions and I am getting better at controlling myself, and have not yelled in response to him.

He agreed to quite them as well last night when we talked. But one thing I don't think he realizes is how hurtful many of the things he says are, not only the obvious ones. Does that make sense?
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 03:12 PM
Quote:
I do have a question for you about the jealousy issue, and the way y'all handle it. If this is too personal to ask, then I apologize... Has there been a past affair that created the jealousy or was it always there? Does it not bother you at all that she feels this way at all about you? This is something that has really hurt me time and time again throughout our marriage. I feel as though he has no faith in me or us, and I have never done anything to bring those feelings on. At first I tried to be considerate and understanding, but it seemed to only make the matter worse.

Markos has never had an affair. He welcomes me checking up on him because:
1. He has nothing to hide
2. It alleviates any fears or "insecurities" that I have. When I see that he's really not up to anything, it CREATES trust.

[/quote]

I apologize if what I asked was disrespectful or anything toward y'all, I was not trying to come across that way. Just need help understanding if anyone else has ever gone through what I am going through with my husband (these severe feelings of doubt / without an affair that started it).

I am assuming that you have never treated him poorly (or that you don't now) about the feelings that you get? Horrible things have been said / implied to me because of these feelings he has. It is not the feelings that I am upset with. I know he can't help what he is feeling. But I am not a slut or dirty or any of the things that he has said or implied throughout the years. He even will admit he knows I haven't cheated on him and somehow seems to think that he is keeping me from cheating on him from behaving this way. It feels like he is trying to intimidate me into not cheating on him. Which seems so backwards. First off, I would not cheat on him for numerous reasons, and have tried to be considerate and transparent and it does not seem to help. What do I do?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 03:20 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16


I do care about his feelings and feel bad and want to help him through his feelings of insecurity. I thought I had been doing everything I possibly could to do that, and it never got any better (it never "created trust" as mentioned before). In fact the more transparent I have tried to be, the more and more these problems happen. What am I supposed to do when transparency is not enough, and when the way he handles these feelings is just downright mean and disrespectful?


JBK, and he may never feel secure no matter what you do. Some people are just wired like that. What the program would do is teach him to stop committing love busters when he feels that way.

Quote:
I am not trying to be difficult and I completely "buy in" to everything about the program, but I think there are deep issues here and I don't know if I can help him through them.


AGree.

Quote:
Off of the issue of feeling insecure, and on to the UA for a minute. Someone mentioned about "coaching and other activities" later..... I'm not sure if I made the coaching part clear. This is not a hobby where he coaches little league or anything like that. This is his job. Our marriage needs to be first, which it is not now, but our family couldn't survive without us having jobs. There is no way for our UA time to come before his job. I am going to have to get creative with how to find the time after his job.


Your family is not surviving. You are headed to divorce. How will you survive when you are divorced? I assure you that you won't get the benefit of that coaching job if you are divorced. We aren't asking you to make your family destitute, but you need to find an option that accommodates your marriage instead of the other way around.

Quote:
I know some of you may suggest "he should do a different kind of job". This is something he did at the beginning of our marriage (the first 2 years), and it nearly killed us. He was miserable and I was to the point where I didn't hardly like to be around him. It is a much happier person in the career that he is very good at and I want him to have that in his life. Can't he have a successful career and marriage?


You are killing your marriage. So the solution is to find a career that accommodates your marriage.

Quote:
As for the dates being out of the house, I understand what everyone is saying, and you are likely right that the attention wouldn't necessarily be there. I guess what I was thinking was earlier in our marriage we used to get in bed a little early, and a lot of time we would goof around together, sometimes have good conversation and sometimes it would turn intimate. If we could somehow bring that back that would at least get some hours started and then try to work in the dates as well?


I would focus on finding a way to get 4 4 hour dates out of the house instead of looking for ways NOT to do that. In the past you were in love and focused on each other. Now you are not.

Quote:
I very much appreciate all the advice, and I understand people come here and are skeptical, but I honestly feel like our personal situation is not being taken into account. Like the finances for example....


You are not looking at the big picture. Part of your problem is that you believe you can fiddle around the edges and effect some change. You cannot. You need to be thinking of your finances when you are DIVORCED because that is where you headed.

You need to take a more serious approach to this process if you want to stop the divorce train.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 03:22 PM
Originally Posted By: buildsherhouse
Originally Posted By: markos
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Also, our kids are not "bad" by any means, but they can be very active little boys and are not the easiest to keep up with. Neither set of parents minds helping us out, but we do feel guilty asking for too much, because they have a hard time keeping up with them sometimes.


We bring the grandparents a very nice crock pot dinner which makes them much more eager to keep the kids. smile
in addition to leaving food for babysitters I also try to keep in reserve a few games, books and movies that I know will hold their attention if the babysitter gets worn out.
I also schedule the day to get the older ones worn out and exercised before hand and the little ones napped and rested and cheerful.

I think you are lucky to have grandparents available. I pray every day that someone who is alone and is lonely will be sent our way to be our adopted grandma in a mutually beneficial way.

We pay for teen babysitters as much as can ( same set up where food and backup entertainment is already planned and the only task is to keep the kids safe) , and I am still looking for ways to trade babysitting with other local moms. Hasn't worked out for me yet, but has for others in other areas.


I totally understand and always try to have the kids in the "best way" possible when they go to someone else's house. But at the same time that is not always possible. Like last night we asked for my mom to watch them so we could go to eat and talk about all this. They had both been at daycare all day long so I really wasn't in control of how their day went. The little one was having diarrhea, etc. The big one can be "distracted" not so much with the two year old. He has a very strict diet (medical purposes) which is not easy to manage, he is a climber, he can scale anything. I turned my head for a few seconds one day while cooking and he was 6 ft up on top of a bookshelf! Luckily it was bolted from the top! I am saying this to say, he is not bad, just not necessarily an easy little one to take care of smile.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 03:23 PM
What is the standard divorce settlement in your state? How much can you afford living on only your salary and child support? I would figure that out and use it as a point of comparison when making decisions about whether or not you can follow this program.

Think about housing, car payments, etc. What kind of house can you afford on your income?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 03:24 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[
I totally understand and always try to have the kids in the "best way" possible when they go to someone else's house. But at the same time that is not always possible. Like last night we asked for my mom to watch them so we could go to eat and talk about all this. They had both been at daycare all day long so I really wasn't in control of how their day went. The little one was having diarrhea, etc. The big one can be "distracted" not so much with the two year old. He has a very strict diet (medical purposes) which is not easy to manage, he is a climber, he can scale anything. I turned my head for a few seconds one day while cooking and he was 6 ft up on top of a bookshelf! Luckily it was bolted from the top! I am saying this to say, he is not bad, just not necessarily an easy little one to take care of smile.


Can you raise these boys as a single mother?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 03:28 PM
You and your husband have developed a lot of terrible habits in your marriage that will lead to the demise of your marriage. IT will take a radical overhaul to turn this around. I see you trying to fiddle around the edges in the hopes that this will be enough. It will not be. Half measures will avail you nothing. Take it from people who have transformed their marriages.

Instead of coming up with a million reasons why you CAN'T do this program, I would use that energy looking for solutions. Otherwise you are wasting our time and yours.

And don't tell me you can't do the UA time or that your husband HAS TO have a 2nd job. We have people here who have 7 kids, with an infant, who manage to do this.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 03:42 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: JBKT16


I do care about his feelings and feel bad and want to help him through his feelings of insecurity. I thought I had been doing everything I possibly could to do that, and it never got any better (it never "created trust" as mentioned before). In fact the more transparent I have tried to be, the more and more these problems happen. What am I supposed to do when transparency is not enough, and when the way he handles these feelings is just downright mean and disrespectful?


JBK, and he may never feel secure no matter what you do. Some people are just wired like that. What the program would do is teach him to stop committing love busters when he feels that way.

Quote:
I am not trying to be difficult and I completely "buy in" to everything about the program, but I think there are deep issues here and I don't know if I can help him through them.


AGree.

Quote:
Off of the issue of feeling insecure, and on to the UA for a minute. Someone mentioned about "coaching and other activities" later..... I'm not sure if I made the coaching part clear. This is not a hobby where he coaches little league or anything like that. This is his job. Our marriage needs to be first, which it is not now, but our family couldn't survive without us having jobs. There is no way for our UA time to come before his job. I am going to have to get creative with how to find the time after his job.


Your family is not surviving. You are headed to divorce. How will you survive when you are divorced? I assure you that you won't get the benefit of that coaching job if you are divorced. We aren't asking you to make your family destitute, but you need to find an option that accommodates your marriage instead of the other way around.

Quote:
I know some of you may suggest "he should do a different kind of job". This is something he did at the beginning of our marriage (the first 2 years), and it nearly killed us. He was miserable and I was to the point where I didn't hardly like to be around him. It is a much happier person in the career that he is very good at and I want him to have that in his life. Can't he have a successful career and marriage?


You are killing your marriage. So the solution is to find a career that accommodates your marriage.

Quote:
As for the dates being out of the house, I understand what everyone is saying, and you are likely right that the attention wouldn't necessarily be there. I guess what I was thinking was earlier in our marriage we used to get in bed a little early, and a lot of time we would goof around together, sometimes have good conversation and sometimes it would turn intimate. If we could somehow bring that back that would at least get some hours started and then try to work in the dates as well?


I would focus on finding a way to get 4 4 hour dates out of the house instead of looking for ways NOT to do that. In the past you were in love and focused on each other. Now you are not.

Quote:
I very much appreciate all the advice, and I understand people come here and are skeptical, but I honestly feel like our personal situation is not being taken into account. Like the finances for example....


You are not looking at the big picture. Part of your problem is that you believe you can fiddle around the edges and effect some change. You cannot. You need to be thinking of your finances when you are DIVORCED because that is where you headed.

You need to take a more serious approach to this process if you want to stop the divorce train.


I don't know how to break up the quotes like you did or I would. I don't want to just scrape the edges, I want a full happy healthy marriage and honestly believe that we could have that. Also, I am still in love with him, and do care about him very much, but it is getting harder and harder to keep the feeling. He claims he still is in love with me, but I can't speak for him, only for myself.

I don't feel like we are headed for divorce, I feel like we are headed for a life of misery if things don't change. (But they are equally unappealing / so I understand the point).

As for the program teaching him how to handle the love busters that is what I pray could happen. It is like something else takes over him when he has these feelings, like I am not even dealing with the person I married.

As for the career, I just don't see how it is the problem. For example, before kids came along, even with the busy career, we had plenty of time we could have enjoyed each other and did not take advantage of it. So WE were the problem, not the career. I don't think he wanted to neglect me, just did not realize the importance. He is admitting now, that time is a huge part of what we need, so I am hopeful that we can change. Getting a different career would not change us and would also make him unhappy with that aspect of his life.

I will began to stress the importance of us getting out of the house together and find ways to make it happen. To add to everything we need to accomplish his mom is now in the hospital for at least a couple weeks. So now we only have one set of grandparents to turn to, but I know we are blessed to have that! We never have until now.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 03:49 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[

As for the career, I just don't see how it is the problem. For example, before kids came along, even with the busy career, we had plenty of time we could have enjoyed each other and did not take advantage of it. So WE were the problem, not the career. I don't think he wanted to neglect me, just did not realize the importance. He is admitting now, that time is a huge part of what we need, so I am hopeful that we can change. Getting a different career would not change us and would also make him unhappy with that aspect of his life.

I will began to stress the importance of us getting out of the house together and find ways to make it happen. To add to everything we need to accomplish his mom is now in the hospital for at least a couple weeks. So now we only have one set of grandparents to turn to, but I know we are blessed to have that! We never have until now.


JBT, his career is just fine as long as you can get 4 - 4 hour dates out of the house every week and follow the program. And yes, you are headed to divorce. You aren't coming here because you are happy in your marriage, so please don't try to tell me everything is fine. And I do realize you had another posting name previously because I recognize the story. [bb? something?]

Can you follow the program or not? If you can, I would be glad to help you. If you refuse to follow the program, you are wasting our time.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 03:51 PM
Isn't this you? http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2853719&page=1
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 03:55 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
You and your husband have developed a lot of terrible habits in your marriage that will lead to the demise of your marriage. IT will take a radical overhaul to turn this around. I see you trying to fiddle around the edges in the hopes that this will be enough. It will not be. Half measures will avail you nothing. Take it from people who have transformed their marriages.

Instead of coming up with a million reasons why you CAN'T do this program, I would use that energy looking for solutions. Otherwise you are wasting our time and yours.

And don't tell me you can't do the UA time or that your husband HAS TO have a 2nd job. We have people here who have 7 kids, with an infant, who manage to do this.


Sorry, I did not see this yet when I replied a while ago. I am certainly not trying to waste anyone's time. I very much appreciate all the help and advice y'all are giving me.

Just to clarify, he does not have a second job, this IS his job, his only job.

I do agree that it will take a radical overhaul to change our marriage, and I am willing and wanting to do the program. That is exactly why I am here wanting help, and asking for feedback.

I can not do the program alone, I have to have my husband on board to make it successful. If I went to him and said "you need a different career for us to save our marriage" his willingness to try would be over.

I don't want to hit only the edges, I guess I was thinking of it like steps in the right direction. For example, we both committed to the joint agreement, to sitting down on Sundays to plan our week out, and to stop the love busters (which I know will be a work in progress, but I do believe we are both serious about it). To me these are huge steps in the right direction. Maybe we are only scratching the surface at this point, but don't we have to start somewhere, these changes are to big to just happen overnight.

What am I saying to come across so wrong? How long did it take some of you couples who have successfully turned around a marriage? I'm assuming it is a process not an immediate answer. We already had some successful negotiations last night. Just on day 1 of trying to make a change.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 04:01 PM


Yes it is. I tried to log -in as that screen name but it continued to tell me I had the wrong info, so I eventually just created a new one. At that point I was in a really bad mind frame with him. I was to the point of giving up and becoming very depressed over it. I never asked him to work through the program with me at that point, and I know I was very defensive and angry.

Things got better for a little while and I got so hopeful that maybe our bad period was over. But I have now realized that each time they are better, it will only be temporary until we make changes in ourselves. Including myself. I have been reading the site for weeks before I came here to ask questions this time. I wanted to educate myself more and begin to attempt to change my responses to him. Something that he acknowledged last night that I was doing a better job with.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 04:04 PM
JBKT - my husband and I work crazy hours too. But we are still able to get our UA time. Sit down together with a schedule grid covering 7 24 hour periods. PUt in UA time. Then everything else. What you put in first gets done. The other stuff can be made to fit around it.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 04:11 PM
Originally Posted By: apples123
JBKT - my husband and I work crazy hours too. But we are still able to get our UA time. Sit down together with a schedule grid covering 7 24 hour periods. PUt in UA time. Then everything else. What you put in first gets done. The other stuff can be made to fit around it.


Thank you for the encouragement. Are all of your hours out of the house or is it mixed? That is the hardest part I am having trouble wrapping my mind around.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 04:14 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[

As for the career, I just don't see how it is the problem. For example, before kids came along, even with the busy career, we had plenty of time we could have enjoyed each other and did not take advantage of it. So WE were the problem, not the career. I don't think he wanted to neglect me, just did not realize the importance. He is admitting now, that time is a huge part of what we need, so I am hopeful that we can change. Getting a different career would not change us and would also make him unhappy with that aspect of his life.

I will began to stress the importance of us getting out of the house together and find ways to make it happen. To add to everything we need to accomplish his mom is now in the hospital for at least a couple weeks. So now we only have one set of grandparents to turn to, but I know we are blessed to have that! We never have until now.


JBT, his career is just fine as long as you can get 4 - 4 hour dates out of the house every week and follow the program. And yes, you are headed to divorce. You aren't coming here because you are happy in your marriage, so please don't try to tell me everything is fine. And I do realize you had another posting name previously because I recognize the story. [bb? something?]

Can you follow the program or not? If you can, I would be glad to help you. If you refuse to follow the program, you are wasting our time.


I agree everything is NOT fine, it is not even ok. It is bad. Yes, we do have times where we are "fine" but I know they are only temporary. All I was saying is that I have no intentions of getting divorced, and he doesn't either. So where does that leave us, just being unhappy? I know we could be happy and that is why I am here.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 04:18 PM
I do want to do the program and I do want help. If you read through any of the other post I made previously I hope you can see that I have had a different mindframe, and I have learned about the program. Before I just stumbled upon the board, not knowing anything about it before asking for help.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 04:22 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[I don't want to hit only the edges, I guess I was thinking of it like steps in the right direction. For example, we both committed to the joint agreement, to sitting down on Sundays to plan our week out, and to stop the love busters (which I know will be a work in progress, but I do believe we are both serious about it). To me these are huge steps in the right direction. Maybe we are only scratching the surface at this point, but don't we have to start somewhere, these changes are to big to just happen overnight.


Ok, if you are both committed, then start with these 2 steps: schedule 20 hours per week of UA [4-4 hour dates] time using this schedule: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4508_tuaw.html. Click on that link and then click on the PDF link and download and print up the PDF. AND focus all of your attention on eliminating love busters. The POJA can come later.

Do you have the book Lovebusters?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 04:25 PM
Also, tell me again when you are speaking to the Harleys? Are you getting help from them?
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 04:29 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[I don't want to hit only the edges, I guess I was thinking of it like steps in the right direction. For example, we both committed to the joint agreement, to sitting down on Sundays to plan our week out, and to stop the love busters (which I know will be a work in progress, but I do believe we are both serious about it). To me these are huge steps in the right direction. Maybe we are only scratching the surface at this point, but don't we have to start somewhere, these changes are to big to just happen overnight.




Ok, if you are both committed, then start with these 2 steps: schedule 20 hours per week of UA [4-4 hour dates] time using this schedule: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4508_tuaw.html. Click on that link and then click on the PDF link and download and print up the PDF. AND focus all of your attention on eliminating love busters. The POJA can come later.

Do you have the book Lovebusters?



So we shouldn't implement the POJA yet? I think some of our biggest love busters are independent behaviors (which also lead to the angry outburst,etc.), on both sides, so I guess I assumed that the POJA could help us start avoiding love busters.

I have read every article and basically everything on the website. So I have learned about what they are, but have not read the actual book.

I will head to the link you sent now...
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 04:29 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
[

Ok, if you are both committed, then start with these 2 steps: schedule 20 hours per week of UA [4-4 hour dates] time using this schedule: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4508_tuaw.html. Click on that link and then click on the PDF link and download and print up the PDF. AND focus all of your attention on eliminating love busters. The POJA can come later.

Do you have the book Lovebusters?



Let me explain why these 2 first steps are SO CRITICAL to your plan. They will create the greatest love bank deposits the fastest, which will motivate you both to go out on your dates. When you are passionately in love, you don't have to be prodded to find 15-20 hours per week; you will be refusing to miss your dates. You will be treating it as importantly as you do your jobs and won't be willing to cut corners.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 04:32 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[


So we shouldn't implement the POJA yet? I think some of our biggest love busters are independent behaviors (which also lead to the angry outburst,etc.), on both sides, so I guess I assumed that the POJA could help us start avoiding love busters.


NO, don't try to use the POJA until you have eliminated love busters. The POJA will go much smoother when you a) you have eliminated love busters and b) you are in love.

Quote:
I have read every article and basically everything on the website. So I have learned about what they are, but have not read the actual book.

..


Order the book today. You need to have the book and go through the lessons in the back. I would also order the workbook because it has all of the worksheets and several good lessons in it.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 04:32 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Also, tell me again when you are speaking to the Harleys? Are you getting help from them?


I do want help from them, but to be honest, I am a little nervous about this. I feel like I would be betraying him by talking to them behind his back, but I am pretty sure he wouldn't be on board with it. I don't want to backtrack now that he says he is willing to try.

Along these same lines....I honestly feel like I shouldn't be on here asking for help, but I am so desperate and am only wanting to help us. Would coming here be a violation to the POJA?
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 04:35 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[


So we shouldn't implement the POJA yet? I think some of our biggest love busters are independent behaviors (which also lead to the angry outburst,etc.), on both sides, so I guess I assumed that the POJA could help us start avoiding love busters.


NO, don't try to use the POJA until you have eliminated love busters. The POJA will go much smoother when you a) you have eliminated love busters and b) you are in love.

Quote:
I have read every article and basically everything on the website. So I have learned about what they are, but have not read the actual book.

..


Order the book today. You need to have the book and go through the lessons in the back. I would also order the workbook because it has all of the worksheets and several good lessons in it.


Ok, I will do that. Can we begin practicing the ideas of the POJA? This is what we did last night, and it really seemed to work. How do you know when the time is right to implement it? I was also thinking it could help alleviate some of his insecurities.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 04:38 PM
Is the workbook you are referring to the "5 steps to..."?
Posted By: apples123 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 04:46 PM
I've found that in any job that involves managing people, it is easy to let the time devoted to work activities to get out of hand. There are 7 days in a week, 168 hours. UA only takes 10%. If you spent 4 evenings a week out on those 4 hour dates, that leaves 3 other evenings for other activities. Plus there is time on the weekend days for most people.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 04:52 PM
Yes, we leave the house.
Posted By: PoppyNJ Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 04:53 PM
5 Steps to Romantic Love is the Workbook that goes with Love Busters and His Needs Her Needs.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 05:22 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Also, tell me again when you are speaking to the Harleys? Are you getting help from them?


I do want help from them, but to be honest, I am a little nervous about this. I feel like I would be betraying him by talking to them behind his back, but I am pretty sure he wouldn't be on board with it. I don't want to backtrack now that he says he is willing to try.

Along these same lines....I honestly feel like I shouldn't be on here asking for help, but I am so desperate and am only wanting to help us. Would coming here be a violation to the POJA?


POJA is for recovery and you are not in recovery. So, you should post here and you most certainly speak to the Harleys. It is not "betraying" your husband to get help for your marriage.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 05:24 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[
Ok, I will do that. Can we begin practicing the ideas of the POJA? This is what we did last night, and it really seemed to work. How do you know when the time is right to implement it? I was also thinking it could help alleviate some of his insecurities.


By all means, stop engaging in independent behavior [other than seeking help for your marriage] and don't do anything to aggravate the situation. But you will start using the POJA down the road when you have eliminated love busters and built up some love bank deposits.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 05:34 PM
Originally Posted By: apples123
I've found that in any job that involves managing people, it is easy to let the time devoted to work activities to get out of hand. There are 7 days in a week, 168 hours. UA only takes 10%. If you spent 4 evenings a week out on those 4 hour dates, that leaves 3 other evenings for other activities. Plus there is time on the weekend days for most people.


Thanks again for your advice... We don't spend any time at home on job related stuff believe it or not. We are some of the few teachers out there that manage to be good teachers without bringing stuff home. I work really hard to make sure I get all grading etc done during the day, and besides the first couple years have never had to bring stuff home. In the past he had a hard time seperating work from family when he came home (was always taking parent phone calls etc) but he has changed that and really does rarely do anything job related while at home.

The problem is really my husbands career is NOT 9-5 with 5 nights a week available. His job is seasonal in a way, during football season, he is not available but 3, possibly 4, nights a week. 2 of those being on the weekend. At his old school, he did not even get the weekend. That was one more motivation factor for us changing locations this past year. This schools head coach is much less demanding here than at previous locations. But during other times of year is available much more. During the Summer we have even more time than the average family considering we are both teachers. He does work some during the summer but it is not like having a 9-5 job.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 05:35 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16


Along these same lines....I honestly feel like I shouldn't be on here asking for help, but I am so desperate and am only wanting to help us. Would coming here be a violation to the POJA?


Health and safety is an exception to the PoJA and that almost always includes bad marital situations. Women in particular can become very seriously depressed in a poor marriage.

It's a temporary emergency measure - your long term goal is to ensure he is happy in the marriage you create too.

Depression is a true and present danger. I never thought I was particularly, but when I got out of my bad marriage it was like I saw the sun shine for the first time.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 05:37 PM
Originally Posted By: PoppyNJ
5 Steps to Romantic Love is the Workbook that goes with Love Busters and His Needs Her Needs.


Thanks, I was assuming so... Both of them have been ordered but will take a few days to get here.

I have stopped the "independent behaviors" since reading through everything on the site in the last couple of weeks. I never did have that issue in the beginning of our marriage, I think somehow it became my defense mechanism for the fact that he was hurting me so bad and so often.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 05:41 PM
Originally Posted By: indiegirl
Originally Posted By: JBKT16


Along these same lines....I honestly feel like I shouldn't be on here asking for help, but I am so desperate and am only wanting to help us. Would coming here be a violation to the POJA?


Health and safety is an exception to the PoJA and that almost always includes bad marital situations. Women in particular can become very seriously depressed in a poor marriage.

It's a temporary emergency measure - your long term goal is to ensure he is happy in the marriage you create too.

Depression is a true and present danger. I never thought I was particularly, but when I got out of my bad marriage it was like I saw the sun shine for the first time.



Thank you for the input on this. I would love to hear others opinions about it as well. I have always prided myself in being completely open and honest. Not just with my husband but in general as well. I think that is one reason why I was so hurt by some of the things he implied about me, when I know that is not who I am (as does he).

So a part of me feels very guilty being hear, talking to outsiders. But I do feel like I am only here for the sake of helping to create a healthy marriage.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 06:18 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[

Thank you for the input on this. I would love to hear others opinions about it as well. I have always prided myself in being completely open and honest. Not just with my husband but in general as well. I think that is one reason why I was so hurt by some of the things he implied about me, when I know that is not who I am (as does he).

So a part of me feels very guilty being hear, talking to outsiders. But I do feel like I am only here for the sake of helping to create a healthy marriage.


JBK, you should be open and honest with your husband. But you and your H do not use the POJA yet because you are not in recovery. So you should contact Dr Harley and get his opinion and then share that with your husband. HOWEVER, I would not show him this thread until your recovery is under way and the love busters have been eliminated from your marriage. Sometimes being "open and honest" in a dysfunctional situation causes more harm than good so you need to be sure it won't harm your marriage.

The opinion I am giving you is one I have heard from Dr Harley. If you think I am giving you advice that doesn't line up with his opinion, then please feel free to notify the moderators so they can remove my posts. This is not a personal opinion venue.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 06:21 PM
This is a step by step plan. You can't be honest until you have removed lovebusters.

Obviously you need help to do that.

Posted By: apples123 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 06:22 PM
I know all about not having a 9-5 job. You still mentioned having 3-4 nights per week in the busiest of times. Use all of those. If needed, add a morning date on the weekends.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 06:38 PM
Originally Posted By: apples123
I know all about not having a 9-5 job. You still mentioned having 3-4 nights per week in the busiest of times. Use all of those. If needed, add a morning date on the weekends.


If he worked however many nights and then we used all the rest for us, our kids would never see their dad, not one night a week??? That is not healthy either. I understand that our marriage is more important than being with the kids and that it will benefit the kids in the long run, but there is no way I would go three months of my kids not seeing their dad but a couple hours a week.

I guess we will worry about football when it gets here. Hopefully we will be able to make a lot of progress this Summer before we have to come up with more creative solutions for football season.

And when I say 3 or 4 nights a week I mean he is home before bed time vs getting home after everyone is in bed (I wait on the couch for him on late nights).
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 06:43 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Originally Posted By: apples123
I know all about not having a 9-5 job. You still mentioned having 3-4 nights per week in the busiest of times. Use all of those. If needed, add a morning date on the weekends.


If he worked however many nights and then we used all the rest for us, our kids would never see their dad, not one night a week??? That is not healthy either. I understand that our marriage is more important than being with the kids and that it will benefit the kids in the long run, but there is no way I would go three months of my kids not seeing their dad but a couple hours a week.


This post tells me you don't understand your marriage is more important. If he has a career that does not accommodate your marriage and your family time, then the career is the problem.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 06:45 PM
Keep in mind, YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING. We are just telling you what it will take to change your marriage. If you cant do these things, then you won't change your marriage.

I am getting weary of hearing you "can't do" this or "can't do" that. Fine, don't do it. It is all the same to me.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 06:48 PM
You continually insist that we change our advice to suit your CURRENT LIFESTYLE [the one that has created a terrible marriage] instead of changing your lifestyle to suit the advice. As long as that is the case, you will continue to get what you always got.

Like I said earlier: it will take a RADICAL CHANGE in your lives to change your marriage. If you refuse to do that, you will always have the same thing.

The UA time is so critically important to the success of this plan that when Dr Harley was in private practice, he turned away any client who would not commit to this step "because my program won't work without it."

So, you are wasting your time and ours if this doesn't change.
Posted By: markos Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 06:52 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
If he worked however many nights and then we used all the rest for us, our kids would never see their dad, not one night a week???


Dr. Harley recommends you schedule 15-30 hours a week for your marriage, and 15 hours a week for your children.

Subtracting 8 hours for sleep every night and 50 hours for work during the week leaves another 32 hours free. That would permit working 82 hours a week if you both really want him to.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 07:00 PM
I'm sorry that I am coming across in such a manner to you. I am only saying "I can't" when they are things that are out of my control. If you were suggesting I should re-evaluate MY career, and my career was interfering with our marriage then I would absolutely consider my options. But this is not my career it is my husbands. Discussing my husbands career doesn't seem like it will help solve the problem because I know he will not change careers.

So I guess I want to do everything I can possibly do to improve / change our marriage that is in my power to do. I am not trying to make excuses or be difficult but his career is not going to change. So I would love advice that will help me change our marriage in spite of that.

And yes, his career does and always will interfere with our marriage, but I have hope that it could be a good marriage in spite of this.

I want to have y'all to encourage me and guide me and I am not sure what I am doing wrong to have that here....
Posted By: apples123 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 07:01 PM
High school football is generally afternoon practice and one game night per week. Why is it taking so much of evening times?

Sounds like time is being used unproductively so where. Are y'all watching TV? Part of a club? Avid church goers?
Posted By: apples123 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 07:02 PM
And that leaves 40 week with little time pressure.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 07:12 PM
Originally Posted By: apples123
High school football is generally afternoon practice and one game night per week. Why is it taking so much of evening times?

Sounds like time is being used unproductively so where. Are y'all watching TV? Part of a club? Avid church goers?


Oh no, high school football(especially Tx football) is much more than one night a week and short afternoon practices. This is not just my husband being there is the requirements of all the staff. It's not like he stays after others have been released. In fact, sometimes they tease him about being the first out the door.

They have two game nights a week (one sub-varsity and one varsity) coaches have responsibilities on both nights. He is also the one stuck driving the bus a lot of times....
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 07:13 PM
Whatever comes before the marriage will destroy the marriage. If your husband puts his career first, then you cannot have a good marriage in spite of it.
Posted By: markos Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 07:15 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Originally Posted By: apples123
High school football is generally afternoon practice and one game night per week. Why is it taking so much of evening times?

Sounds like time is being used unproductively so where. Are y'all watching TV? Part of a club? Avid church goers?


Oh no, high school football(especially Tx football) is much more than one night a week and short afternoon practices. This is not just my husband being there is the requirements of all the staff. It's not like he stays after others have been released. In fact, sometimes they tease him about being the first out the door.

They have two game nights a week (one sub-varsity and one varsity) coaches have responsibilities on both nights. He is also the one stuck driving the bus a lot of times....


How many hours per week does your husband's job take?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 07:16 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
I'm sorry that I am coming across in such a manner to you. I am only saying "I can't" when they are things that are out of my control. .


No. His little job is not out of his control. We cannot hope to help you if you refuse to take the advice. We cannot help you if you INSIST on putting anything before your marriage.

We have told you this many, many times.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 07:18 PM
Here is how you need to prioritize your lives:

1. 20 hours for your marriage
2. 15 hours for family commitment
3. your jobs
4. personal hobbies

Somehow you all manage to find time for your jobs, so I KNOW you can find time for your marriage and your family!
Posted By: markos Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 07:40 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Also, tell me again when you are speaking to the Harleys? Are you getting help from them?


I do want help from them, but to be honest, I am a little nervous about this. I feel like I would be betraying him by talking to them behind his back, but I am pretty sure he wouldn't be on board with it. I don't want to backtrack now that he says he is willing to try.

Along these same lines....I honestly feel like I shouldn't be on here asking for help, but I am so desperate and am only wanting to help us. Would coming here be a violation to the POJA?


No, the POJA is not a loophole that a husband can use to keep his wife from doing Marriage Builders. smile
Posted By: markos Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 07:47 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
I do have a question for you about the jealousy issue, and the way y'all handle it. If this is too personal to ask, then I apologize... Has there been a past affair that created the jealousy or was it always there? Does it not bother you at all that she feels this way at all about you? This is something that has really hurt me time and time again throughout our marriage.


The only past affair in our marriage is hers, actually. I have never had an affair.

No, it does not bother me at all for Prisca to feel jealous about me or for her to check up on me. I feel good about having her 100% integrated into my life. We have an exclusive relationship, so of course a natural consequence of that is that neither one of us wants the other to do anything that would jeopardize that.

But of course Prisca is never demanding, disrespectful, or angry about it. I suspect that if your husband were to eliminate the demands, disrespect, or anger, the jealousy would not bother you as much. One of the biggest lessons around here is that negative feelings don't have to lead to negative abusive behavior. That's why it's so crucial for your husband to get on board with the plan to eliminate love busters and exchange the weekly worksheets.

Quote:
I feel as though he has no faith in me or us, and I have never done anything to bring those feelings on.


It's the other way around - you have to do something to bring on feelings of trust. For example, when he stops being demanding, disrespectful, and angry, you will begin to feel trust that he's not going to hurt you!

Quote:
At first I tried to be considerate and understanding, but it seemed to only make the matter worse.


You can be considerate and understanding and also insist that you will not tolerate demands, disrespect, and angry outbursts. That's how Prisca treats me.
Posted By: markos Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 07:49 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Quote:
I do have a question for you about the jealousy issue, and the way y'all handle it. If this is too personal to ask, then I apologize... Has there been a past affair that created the jealousy or was it always there? Does it not bother you at all that she feels this way at all about you? This is something that has really hurt me time and time again throughout our marriage. I feel as though he has no faith in me or us, and I have never done anything to bring those feelings on. At first I tried to be considerate and understanding, but it seemed to only make the matter worse.

Markos has never had an affair. He welcomes me checking up on him because:
1. He has nothing to hide
2. It alleviates any fears or "insecurities" that I have. When I see that he's really not up to anything, it CREATES trust.



I apologize if what I asked was disrespectful or anything toward y'all, I was not trying to come across that way.[/quote]

You didn't come across as disrespectful at all. That is a VERY good question! Dr. Harley and Joyce also treat each other the same way - if she feels jealous, he ends a relationship. It's that simple.

Do you maintain any relationships your husband is not enthusiastic about?
Posted By: markos Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 07:52 PM
JBKT16, I am a little bit worried that in the discussion about jealousy and the discussion about UA time, that this may have been missed. Please reread it:

Originally Posted By: markos
JBKT16, that sounds so much like how Prisca and I used to be. We didn't have a lot of trouble being in love with each other, when we weren't fighting, because we were great at meeting each other's emotional needs. But we were terrible at love busters, and therefore we were terrible at resolving conflicts.

Something I'm seeing here is that you need to keep problems on the front burner. Your husband agreed to do Marriage Builders with you, but then nothing happened for a week. Instead of letting a week go by, bring it up EVERY DAY which will show him it is important to you. Your husband engages in selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts. Each and every time this needs to go on a worksheet like Dr. Harley describes in Love Busters and you need to give him that worksheet each week and keep a record, with him striving to get that worksheet empty for an entire week at a time.

But for this to work you have got to bring it up and keep bringing it up - it is an issue, and it has got to stay an issue.

...

I believe you two need to work through the book Love Busters together, focusing on the first few chapters and exchanging the weekly worksheets Dr. Harley suggests, until the worksheets are empty. Then after Love Busters if you work through He Wins She Wins, you will probably have a great marriage, because it sounds like you already know how to meet each other's emotional needs. Along the way you will learn to resolve the difficulty that he is causing by not giving adequate time to meet your needs.

I would bring this up to your husband EVERY DAY. If he agrees one day, bring it up the next day until he does it. If he refuses or never gets around to it, keep bringing it up, but find out what Dr. Harley suggests.


Since your husband said he'll do Marriage Builders with you, order Love Busters and ask him to go through the first few chapters with you and start exchanging the worksheets it suggests. See if he says yes or no. We really need to know what his answer is before going further.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/15/15 09:01 PM
You are not the first one to show up who thought MB had some good ideas, but not all of it was possible. You are not the first to think that your situation was somehow different, and that you'd just have to somehow make it work differently.

I did, too.

It doesn't work. This program WILL NOT WORK if you cherry-pick it to death.
Posted By: alis Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/16/15 02:53 AM
Between this thread and your other thread, you have gotten 23 pages of advice. Your overall approach is still that you aren't willing to consider a lifestyle change to fix this marriage. How can anyone help you, if you won't help yourself?

Complaining with no intention to make substantial change is not real progress, it is lip service to your marriage.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/16/15 06:49 PM
I'm familiar with TX football. You are making excuses.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/16/15 06:53 PM
Btw that's still only 2 nights. For 11 weeks per year.


Prove to me the schedule is that bad. Write the whole thing down. (Are you catching my skepticism? It's because I work way more hours and still manage to make my husband my #1 priority.)
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 01:02 PM
Originally Posted By: markos
JBKT16, I am a little bit worried that in the discussion about jealousy and the discussion about UA time, that this may have been missed. Please reread it:

Originally Posted By: markos
JBKT16, that sounds so much like how Prisca and I used to be. We didn't have a lot of trouble being in love with each other, when we weren't fighting, because we were great at meeting each other's emotional needs. But we were terrible at love busters, and therefore we were terrible at resolving conflicts.

Something I'm seeing here is that you need to keep problems on the front burner. Your husband agreed to do Marriage Builders with you, but then nothing happened for a week. Instead of letting a week go by, bring it up EVERY DAY which will show him it is important to you. Your husband engages in selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts. Each and every time this needs to go on a worksheet like Dr. Harley describes in Love Busters and you need to give him that worksheet each week and keep a record, with him striving to get that worksheet empty for an entire week at a time.

But for this to work you have got to bring it up and keep bringing it up - it is an issue, and it has got to stay an issue.

...

I believe you two need to work through the book Love Busters together, focusing on the first few chapters and exchanging the weekly worksheets Dr. Harley suggests, until the worksheets are empty. Then after Love Busters if you work through He Wins She Wins, you will probably have a great marriage, because it sounds like you already know how to meet each other's emotional needs. Along the way you will learn to resolve the difficulty that he is causing by not giving adequate time to meet your needs.

I would bring this up to your husband EVERY DAY. If he agrees one day, bring it up the next day until he does it. If he refuses or never gets around to it, keep bringing it up, but find out what Dr. Harley suggests.


Since your husband said he'll do Marriage Builders with you, order Love Busters and ask him to go through the first few chapters with you and start exchanging the worksheets it suggests. See if he says yes or no. We really need to know what his answer is before going further.


I did order the books, the day that y'all advised me to. Just waited to receive them. Despite what everyone thinks I AM serious about changing, and I have already made a lot of changes to myself. Thank you for your advice.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 01:05 PM
Originally Posted By: Prisca
You are not the first one to show up who thought MB had some good ideas, but not all of it was possible. You are not the first to think that your situation was somehow different, and that you'd just have to somehow make it work differently.

I did, too.

It doesn't work. This program WILL NOT WORK if you cherry-pick it to death.


I do not think "it has some good ideas..." I think it is 1000% correct, but for some reason y'all are not understanding that he is NOT going to quit his career, and I am not going to divorce him just because he won't.

So I want to do the program and would love advice while going through it, but if y'all don't think I am serious then I apologize for wasting your time.

It is NOT that I am not willing to make a lifestyle change, I would, but his career is not mine.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 01:07 PM
Originally Posted By: markos
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
I do have a question for you about the jealousy issue, and the way y'all handle it. If this is too personal to ask, then I apologize... Has there been a past affair that created the jealousy or was it always there? Does it not bother you at all that she feels this way at all about you? This is something that has really hurt me time and time again throughout our marriage.


The only past affair in our marriage is hers, actually. I have never had an affair.

No, it does not bother me at all for Prisca to feel jealous about me or for her to check up on me. I feel good about having her 100% integrated into my life. We have an exclusive relationship, so of course a natural consequence of that is that neither one of us wants the other to do anything that would jeopardize that.

But of course Prisca is never demanding, disrespectful, or angry about it. I suspect that if your husband were to eliminate the demands, disrespect, or anger, the jealousy would not bother you as much. One of the biggest lessons around here is that negative feelings don't have to lead to negative abusive behavior. That's why it's so crucial for your husband to get on board with the plan to eliminate love busters and exchange the weekly worksheets.

Quote:
I feel as though he has no faith in me or us, and I have never done anything to bring those feelings on.


It's the other way around - you have to do something to bring on feelings of trust. For example, when he stops being demanding, disrespectful, and angry, you will begin to feel trust that he's not going to hurt you!

Quote:
At first I tried to be considerate and understanding, but it seemed to only make the matter worse.


You can be considerate and understanding and also insist that you will not tolerate demands, disrespect, and angry outbursts. That's how Prisca treats me.


Thank you for the reply, and I think you are right it is not the actual jealousy but the way he handles it. I have never thought about it that way until coming here. Maybe because he has NEVER handled it kindly.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 01:10 PM
Originally Posted By: markos
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Quote:
I do have a question for you about the jealousy issue, and the way y'all handle it. If this is too personal to ask, then I apologize... Has there been a past affair that created the jealousy or was it always there? Does it not bother you at all that she feels this way at all about you? This is something that has really hurt me time and time again throughout our marriage. I feel as though he has no faith in me or us, and I have never done anything to bring those feelings on. At first I tried to be considerate and understanding, but it seemed to only make the matter worse.

Markos has never had an affair. He welcomes me checking up on him because:
1. He has nothing to hide
2. It alleviates any fears or "insecurities" that I have. When I see that he's really not up to anything, it CREATES trust.



I apologize if what I asked was disrespectful or anything toward y'all, I was not trying to come across that way.


You didn't come across as disrespectful at all. That is a VERY good question! Dr. Harley and Joyce also treat each other the same way - if she feels jealous, he ends a relationship. It's that simple.

Do you maintain any relationships your husband is not enthusiastic about? [/quote]

Thank you for your kind answers. No, I do not have any relationships he is not enthusiastic about. To be honest I don't have any friends at all, male or female. The only people I ever spend time with other than my husband and kids, are his parents or mine.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 01:12 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[I do not think "it has some good ideas..." I think it is 1000% correct, but for some reason y'all are not understanding that he is NOT going to quit his career, and I am not going to divorce him just because he won't. .


But you haven't even tried. And yes, you are wasting your time and ours if you won't try.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 01:18 PM
Originally Posted By: apples123
Btw that's still only 2 nights. For 11 weeks per year.


Prove to me the schedule is that bad. Write the whole thing down. (Are you catching my skepticism? It's because I work way more hours and still manage to make my husband my #1 priority.)


During football season, he works from 7am, until about 7-8 pm (Monday Tueaday). Once he gets home it is almost time for me to be getting the kids in bed. I typically have dinner made and he eats. We eat before him on most nights during football (we try to eat together during other times of the year). Wednesday night he gets home a little earlier (maybe 6).

Thursday and Friday are game nights. Thursday he is not home until around 11pm or so. Friday he is not home until at least 12pm maybe 1 am if they are out of town. Saturday mornings he has to work until around lunch time. Sunday he is off. This is as a sub-varsity coach. In the past he has always been a varsity coach and they worked Saturday 5 or 6 hours as well as the same on Sunday. So until this year he has worked 7 days a week during football. Baseball is demanding in a similar way, but typically we get to see him much more than during football.

Most people do NOT understand how many hours these coaches put in but are quick to complain when their teams are not the best in Texas...
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 01:38 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[

Most people do NOT understand how many hours these coaches put in but are quick to complain when their teams are not the best in Texas...


What we DO understand is that it is not working for your marriage, so your first goal is to change this.

Have you heard back from Dr. Harley?
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 01:47 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[

Most people do NOT understand how many hours these coaches put in but are quick to complain when their teams are not the best in Texas...


What we DO understand is that it is not working for your marriage, so your first goal is to change this.

Have you heard back from Dr. Harley?


I just don't understand how everything is suddenly about the job. I do believe we could have a good marriage, even with the complications his job creates. It is the way we communicate, hateful things that are said and done that are causing our marriage to be less than desirable. The lovebusters are ruining us, not the job. A few years ago I would have possibly blamed the job (when he was bringing it home with him all the time) but he has fixed that issue, and I no longer feel that way. Also, we have to learn to take advantage of the time we do have. I have often complained about not using our time available in a productive way. If we could learn to do that (use the time available) then I don't think the time away would be as big of a deal.

I have the generic email back, but have not called. If I call in, will they answer even if I am not willing to talk on the actual show? I am nervous about calling to be honest.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 02:16 PM
Obviously, his job does not leave enough time to sustain a marriage, so that has to be addressed FIRST. Lovebusters are a huge part of it, but the major issue is that you can't sustain a marriage when you don't have any time for it.

You can eliminate all the lovebsuters but you will never have a marriage if you don't have any time for it.

No, they don't put you on the radio when you call in. They discuss your situation and ask how you would like them to address it.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 02:18 PM
It takes 15 hours to maintain the romantic love in a marriage and 20 hours to CREATE. If you can get in 4 - 4 hour dates per week while he maintains his job, then his job would work. The dates should be scheduled at a time when you both have the most energy in 2 to 4 hour blocks.

Can you do that?
Posted By: markos Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 02:32 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Originally Posted By: Prisca
You are not the first one to show up who thought MB had some good ideas, but not all of it was possible. You are not the first to think that your situation was somehow different, and that you'd just have to somehow make it work differently.

I did, too.

It doesn't work. This program WILL NOT WORK if you cherry-pick it to death.


I do not think "it has some good ideas..." I think it is 1000% correct, but for some reason y'all are not understanding that he is NOT going to quit his career, and I am not going to divorce him just because he won't.

So I want to do the program and would love advice while going through it, but if y'all don't think I am serious then I apologize for wasting your time.

It is NOT that I am not willing to make a lifestyle change, I would, but his career is not mine.


What does he say when you go to him and say "Honey, I need more time alone with you. I need you to arrange your schedule so we can spend 15 hours a week together, out of the house without the kids." What does he say when you do this?

We can't get very far unless we can persuade you to be more insistent with him.
Posted By: markos Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 02:32 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Originally Posted By: markos
JBKT16, I am a little bit worried that in the discussion about jealousy and the discussion about UA time, that this may have been missed. Please reread it:

Originally Posted By: markos
JBKT16, that sounds so much like how Prisca and I used to be. We didn't have a lot of trouble being in love with each other, when we weren't fighting, because we were great at meeting each other's emotional needs. But we were terrible at love busters, and therefore we were terrible at resolving conflicts.

Something I'm seeing here is that you need to keep problems on the front burner. Your husband agreed to do Marriage Builders with you, but then nothing happened for a week. Instead of letting a week go by, bring it up EVERY DAY which will show him it is important to you. Your husband engages in selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts. Each and every time this needs to go on a worksheet like Dr. Harley describes in Love Busters and you need to give him that worksheet each week and keep a record, with him striving to get that worksheet empty for an entire week at a time.

But for this to work you have got to bring it up and keep bringing it up - it is an issue, and it has got to stay an issue.

...

I believe you two need to work through the book Love Busters together, focusing on the first few chapters and exchanging the weekly worksheets Dr. Harley suggests, until the worksheets are empty. Then after Love Busters if you work through He Wins She Wins, you will probably have a great marriage, because it sounds like you already know how to meet each other's emotional needs. Along the way you will learn to resolve the difficulty that he is causing by not giving adequate time to meet your needs.

I would bring this up to your husband EVERY DAY. If he agrees one day, bring it up the next day until he does it. If he refuses or never gets around to it, keep bringing it up, but find out what Dr. Harley suggests.


Since your husband said he'll do Marriage Builders with you, order Love Busters and ask him to go through the first few chapters with you and start exchanging the worksheets it suggests. See if he says yes or no. We really need to know what his answer is before going further.


I did order the books, the day that y'all advised me to. Just waited to receive them. Despite what everyone thinks I AM serious about changing, and I have already made a lot of changes to myself. Thank you for your advice.


What does he say when you ask him to go through Love Busters with you? The suggestions I make involve you interacting with him and coming back and telling us what his response is. The program doesn't work if the wife tries to do it alone.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 03:52 PM
Originally Posted By: markos
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Originally Posted By: markos
JBKT16, I am a little bit worried that in the discussion about jealousy and the discussion about UA time, that this may have been missed. Please reread it:

Originally Posted By: markos
JBKT16, that sounds so much like how Prisca and I used to be. We didn't have a lot of trouble being in love with each other, when we weren't fighting, because we were great at meeting each other's emotional needs. But we were terrible at love busters, and therefore we were terrible at resolving conflicts.

Something I'm seeing here is that you need to keep problems on the front burner. Your husband agreed to do Marriage Builders with you, but then nothing happened for a week. Instead of letting a week go by, bring it up EVERY DAY which will show him it is important to you. Your husband engages in selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts. Each and every time this needs to go on a worksheet like Dr. Harley describes in Love Busters and you need to give him that worksheet each week and keep a record, with him striving to get that worksheet empty for an entire week at a time.

But for this to work you have got to bring it up and keep bringing it up - it is an issue, and it has got to stay an issue.

...

I believe you two need to work through the book Love Busters together, focusing on the first few chapters and exchanging the weekly worksheets Dr. Harley suggests, until the worksheets are empty. Then after Love Busters if you work through He Wins She Wins, you will probably have a great marriage, because it sounds like you already know how to meet each other's emotional needs. Along the way you will learn to resolve the difficulty that he is causing by not giving adequate time to meet your needs.

I would bring this up to your husband EVERY DAY. If he agrees one day, bring it up the next day until he does it. If he refuses or never gets around to it, keep bringing it up, but find out what Dr. Harley suggests.


Since your husband said he'll do Marriage Builders with you, order Love Busters and ask him to go through the first few chapters with you and start exchanging the worksheets it suggests. See if he says yes or no. We really need to know what his answer is before going further.


I did order the books, the day that y'all advised me to. Just waited to receive them. Despite what everyone thinks I AM serious about changing, and I have already made a lot of changes to myself. Thank you for your advice.


What does he say when you ask him to go through Love Busters with you? The suggestions I make involve you interacting with him and coming back and telling us what his response is. The program doesn't work if the wife tries to do it alone.


I understand that it won't work with me doing it alone. I think we are heading in the right direction just by him actually following through and bringing up the program (basically saying he was ready to discuss it). We went to dinner and talked through all the basic concepts (he had read them all the night before) and our major issues (which he recognized right away that he was making many more withdrawals than deposits), we both said we would work toward ending all love busters, and to learning to communicate and negotiate better.

So far that aspect has been much better, but we were all sick (throwing up) this weekend so the weekend wasn't a good indication of any progress. I don't have the book yet, so I don't know how he will respond when I ask him to go through the book. I have a feeling he will think that what we are doing is enough, but I know we need as much guidance as possible.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 03:56 PM
Originally Posted By: markos
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Originally Posted By: Prisca
You are not the first one to show up who thought MB had some good ideas, but not all of it was possible. You are not the first to think that your situation was somehow different, and that you'd just have to somehow make it work differently.

I did, too.

It doesn't work. This program WILL NOT WORK if you cherry-pick it to death.


I do not think "it has some good ideas..." I think it is 1000% correct, but for some reason y'all are not understanding that he is NOT going to quit his career, and I am not going to divorce him just because he won't.

So I want to do the program and would love advice while going through it, but if y'all don't think I am serious then I apologize for wasting your time.

It is NOT that I am not willing to make a lifestyle change, I would, but his career is not mine.


What does he say when you go to him and say "Honey, I need more time alone with you. I need you to arrange your schedule so we can spend 15 hours a week together, out of the house without the kids." What does he say when you do this?

We can't get very far unless we can persuade you to be more insistent with him.


When we talked about the 15 hours he said he totally agreed that we were lacking UA time and that it would need to change as well as the love busters. But then his comment was "I don't know if we can get 15 hours but we need to try to get as much as possible".

As I mentioned a second ago we were all sick this weekend, so we didn't get to make any progress, or get to discuss anything any further. To add to all the other commitments in his life, his mom is in a re-hab center and he and his sister are taking turns going up and being with her. Which is obviously important, but adds to schedule that much more.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 04:04 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
It takes 15 hours to maintain the romantic love in a marriage and 20 hours to CREATE. If you can get in 4 - 4 hour dates per week while he maintains his job, then his job would work. The dates should be scheduled at a time when you both have the most energy in 2 to 4 hour blocks.

Can you do that?


No, we can't, not entirely out of the house anyway. It would be impossible for us as far as time and money is concerned.... So I am just supposed to give up? I know there has to be people who have overcome challenging situations before.

What are y'all suggesting, that I divorce him because he won't want to get a new job? Even if he did get a new job, I have been through that with him and he was miserable. He did that for "us" at the beginning of our marriage. He would only resent me for wanting him to quit doing something he is passionate about.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 04:24 PM
Quote:
No, we can't, not entirely out of the house anyway. It would be impossible for us as far as time and money is concerned.... So I am just supposed to give up? I know there has to be people who have overcome challenging situations before.

This program does not work without the 15 hours outside of the house.
Posted By: markos Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 04:37 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
I understand that it won't work with me doing it alone. I think we are heading in the right direction just by him actually following through and bringing up the program (basically saying he was ready to discuss it). We went to dinner and talked through all the basic concepts (he had read them all the night before) and our major issues (which he recognized right away that he was making many more withdrawals than deposits), we both said we would work toward ending all love busters, and to learning to communicate and negotiate better.

So far that aspect has been much better, but we were all sick (throwing up) this weekend so the weekend wasn't a good indication of any progress. I don't have the book yet, so I don't know how he will respond when I ask him to go through the book. I have a feeling he will think that what we are doing is enough, but I know we need as much guidance as possible.


Tell him you've ordered the book and ask him to go through it with you when it arrives. There's no reason to wait. Tell us how he responds.
Posted By: markos Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 04:38 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
When we talked about the 15 hours he said he totally agreed that we were lacking UA time and that it would need to change as well as the love busters. But then his comment was "I don't know if we can get 15 hours but we need to try to get as much as possible".


I would respond to that by saying "But we have to - I absolutely need this much time for you." What does he say to that?

BTW, it's great that you went out to dinner - can you start doing that more often each week?
Posted By: markos Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 04:40 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
It takes 15 hours to maintain the romantic love in a marriage and 20 hours to CREATE. If you can get in 4 - 4 hour dates per week while he maintains his job, then his job would work. The dates should be scheduled at a time when you both have the most energy in 2 to 4 hour blocks.

Can you do that?


No, we can't, not entirely out of the house anyway. It would be impossible for us as far as time and money is concerned.... So I am just supposed to give up? I know there has to be people who have overcome challenging situations before.

What are y'all suggesting, that I divorce him because he won't want to get a new job? Even if he did get a new job, I have been through that with him and he was miserable. He did that for "us" at the beginning of our marriage. He would only resent me for wanting him to quit doing something he is passionate about.


I wouldn't prescribe "quitting the job" as the solution. I would simply insist that this problem has to be solved, somehow - you need him to spend 15 hours per week with you, and if he wants to solve that by rearranging the schedule, changing jobs, or whatever, anything will work as long as it solves that problem. I'm sure he can come up with lots of options, but not if you don't insist that you have to have this from him.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 04:49 PM
I read in one of the articles that he recommended getting the hours outside of the house was the best. And I agree. But while reading the article I had the feeling it was just 15 hours (without kids or friends around), not that every hour had to be out on a date.

If we got an hour a night alone, in the bedroom, that would be 7 hours. If we took advantage of "nap time" on the weekend (which we did do this saturday before we got sick) that would be another two hours. Then we could get the 6 hours out of the house together. That would be 15 hours. Would a schedule like this not work?

Here's the parts of the article that I was remembering:

"The time you plan to be together should not include children (who are awake), relatives or friends. Establish privacy so that you are better able to give each other your undivided attention.

Throughout our entire married life, most of the time that Joyce and I have spent giving each other undivided attention has been away from our home. That way we were able to avoid interruptions from our children or unexpected company...

When I apply the fifteen-hour principle to marriages, I usually recommend that the time be evenly distributed throughout the week, two to three hours each day. When time must be bunched up -- all hours only on the weekend -- good results are not as predictable. Spouses need to be emotionally reconnected almost on a daily basis to meet each other's most important emotional needs."

These are just a few of the phrases that stood out to me. It makes it very clear that the time must be alone, with no friends or family, but the way I took the article is that he suggest most of the time be out of the house. Not that every hour MUST be out of the house.
Posted By: happyheart Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 04:50 PM
Oh my,

I just read about the unlimited hours a person can work in Texas. And I thought 42 hours was bad (considering normal work week was 36-38 where I used to live...). Here, regular days over 10 hours are illegal...

Well except for emigration, you have to find the time to have fun with your husband. Much of this time, should be spent in blocks of 2-4 hours.

Wednesday:
You could go out with him right after work, if he is ready 17:30 and spend 3 hours relaxing and having fun together.

Saturday: you have 8 hours of time between 13:00 and 21:00 where you can put in 4 hours family time and 4 hours UA time.

Sunday, you also have 12 waking hours and can put in family and UA time.

On 1-2 of the other days, you could have lunch with him, if possible in private, since you are working at the same school.

The thing is, though, that
1. it is very hard to have an integrated life, if your husband is spending so much time away from the family.
2. if anything unexpected comes up, and it always does, you don't have 15 hours and will be stressed because there is no redundance in your schedule.

Is it an option to attend some of the games with him, not to spend time with him during the game, but you could explore the town and drive home with him.
It is dangerous for him to have so much time without you, especially since he is probably mixing with young people who do all kinds of not-marriage-compatible things, like partying with cheerleaders etc.
Posted By: happyheart Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 04:52 PM
Also, since he is coming home after 8, why don't you have the children go to their rooms by 19:30, so you can have time for yourself, untill your husband comes home?
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 04:58 PM
Quote:
But while reading the article I had the feeling it was just 15 hours (without kids or friends around), not that every hour had to be out on a date.

Yeah, I used to think that too.
Those of us pointing out that UA must be done outside of the home have talked to Dr. Harley himself. We have been through the program. I myself have actually argued with him about this.

Dr. Harley is the one who maintains that UA must be outside of the home. UA at home simply does not make enough lovebank deposits. It is not effective. It will not work.

He talks about this on the radio show as well.
Posted By: happyheart Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 05:06 PM
If you have no kids and hassles and are dating, an hour in between is probably more effective than in your situation.
The problem with an hour in the bedroom in the evening, is that you will be tired and probably will be sleeping together instead of "sleeping" together.

This is not fun time, like the time your husband spends celebrating with his team after they have won. Also, you will notice the clothes laying in the bedroom that have not been folded away, the kids will get up and do all sorts of things (I'm talking "mommy, why is the door locked, I want to a. pee, b. kiss good nigt, c. have you finish my paper for tomorrow, d. give me my school money, e. ask if I can see the end of Star Wars, just this time, f. ...).

It will probably not be a good environment where you can spend time connecting, laughing and talking about the good times, so that you (especially women need time to connect) will be in the best of moods to be romantically seduced. Instead, you will come to dread these sullen and tedious hours, locked up in the bedroom doing whatever you do in the bedroom.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 05:08 PM
Originally Posted By: Dr. Harley
One problem with spending your time for undivided attention in the house is that at least one of your children will interrupt your privacy. But even if you were to send all of your children out of your hours to child care, the environment of your home is likely to cause you to be less romantic. It's a place where you have been busy caring for children. Going almost anywhere else to be alone, giving each other your undivided attention when you are there, would tend to create more of an opportunity to meet each other's intimate emotional needs.

Here
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 05:42 PM
Originally Posted By: happyheart
Also, since he is coming home after 8, why don't you have the children go to their rooms by 19:30, so you can have time for yourself, untill your husband comes home?


I can't do this because then the kids would never see their dad. That is not fair either. They don't stay up much after he gets home, but they are typically still up. The little one is sometimes in bed, if he has a longer than usual night.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 05:49 PM
With the Marriage Builders program, you would schedule 15 hours of UA outside the house, AND 15 hours of family commitment time.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 05:52 PM
Undivided Attention and Family Commitment
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 05:56 PM
Originally Posted By: happyheart
If you have no kids and hassles and are dating, an hour in between is probably more effective than in your situation.
The problem with an hour in the bedroom in the evening, is that you will be tired and probably will be sleeping together instead of "sleeping" together.

This is not fun time, like the time your husband spends celebrating with his team after they have won. Also, you will notice the clothes laying in the bedroom that have not been folded away, the kids will get up and do all sorts of things (I'm talking "mommy, why is the door locked, I want to a. pee, b. kiss good nigt, c. have you finish my paper for tomorrow, d. give me my school money, e. ask if I can see the end of Star Wars, just this time, f. ...).

It will probably not be a good environment where you can spend time connecting, laughing and talking about the good times, so that you (especially women need time to connect) will be in the best of moods to be romantically seduced. Instead, you will come to dread these sullen and tedious hours, locked up in the bedroom doing whatever you do in the bedroom.


I understand what you are saying and I would think if we were just sleeping or not interacting in any way that the time would not count. The only way I would think the time in the room would count was if we were talking / interacting or having sex. To be honest, most of the time now, he doesn't even come to bed with me, unless we basically already know that we are going to have sex. He typically ends up falling asleep on the couch before I go to bed, and then coming in the room a couple hours later.

I have asked him numerous times to come with me, and he says he doesn't do it on purpose, that he is just so exhausted....which I understand that he really is exhausted. I do get the point about their being clothes laying around, etc (other distractions).
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 05:57 PM
Originally Posted By: markos
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
It takes 15 hours to maintain the romantic love in a marriage and 20 hours to CREATE. If you can get in 4 - 4 hour dates per week while he maintains his job, then his job would work. The dates should be scheduled at a time when you both have the most energy in 2 to 4 hour blocks.

Can you do that?


No, we can't, not entirely out of the house anyway. It would be impossible for us as far as time and money is concerned.... So I am just supposed to give up? I know there has to be people who have overcome challenging situations before.

What are y'all suggesting, that I divorce him because he won't want to get a new job? Even if he did get a new job, I have been through that with him and he was miserable. He did that for "us" at the beginning of our marriage. He would only resent me for wanting him to quit doing something he is passionate about.


I wouldn't prescribe "quitting the job" as the solution. I would simply insist that this problem has to be solved, somehow - you need him to spend 15 hours per week with you, and if he wants to solve that by rearranging the schedule, changing jobs, or whatever, anything will work as long as it solves that problem. I'm sure he can come up with lots of options, but not if you don't insist that you have to have this from him.


Thank you. This seems much more reasonable. The way it was coming across to me was "he has to quit his job" which I know he won't do.
Posted By: happyheart Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 06:09 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Originally Posted By: happyheart
Also, since he is coming home after 8, why don't you have the children go to their rooms by 19:30, so you can have time for yourself, untill your husband comes home?


I can't do this because then the kids would never see their dad. That is not fair either. They don't stay up much after he gets home, but they are typically still up. The little one is sometimes in bed, if he has a longer than usual night.


They don't have to sleep rightaway, but if you like, you can get them used to playing in their room for x time in their pajamas after teeth brushing until your husband comes home to tell them their bedtime story/say good night etc. But it is less hectic than when you still have to get them ready. Also, it is fair for the children to get at least 12 hours of sleep as they will be less tired during the day and in the morning.

Of course I do not live in your home, it is just my experience with my 5 children.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 06:09 PM
Quote:
I understand what you are saying and I would think if we were just sleeping or not interacting in any way that the time would not count. The only way I would think the time in the room would count was if we were talking / interacting or having sex. To be honest, most of the time now, he doesn't even come to bed with me, unless we basically already know that we are going to have sex. He typically ends up falling asleep on the couch before I go to bed, and then coming in the room a couple hours later.

I have asked him numerous times to come with me, and he says he doesn't do it on purpose, that he is just so exhausted....which I understand that he really is exhausted. I do get the point about their being clothes laying around, etc (other distractions).

UA time at home is definitely not going to work for you.
Posted By: happyheart Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 06:11 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16

I understand what you are saying and I would think if we were just sleeping or not interacting in any way that the time would not count. The only way I would think the time in the room would count was if we were talking / interacting or having sex. To be honest, most of the time now, he doesn't even come to bed with me, unless we basically already know that we are going to have sex. He typically ends up falling asleep on the couch before I go to bed, and then coming in the room a couple hours later.

I have asked him numerous times to come with me, and he says he doesn't do it on purpose, that he is just so exhausted....which I understand that he really is exhausted. I do get the point about their being clothes laying around, etc (other distractions).


That is exactly what you are up against.
Posted By: markos Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 06:12 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Originally Posted By: markos
I wouldn't prescribe "quitting the job" as the solution. I would simply insist that this problem has to be solved, somehow - you need him to spend 15 hours per week with you, and if he wants to solve that by rearranging the schedule, changing jobs, or whatever, anything will work as long as it solves that problem. I'm sure he can come up with lots of options, but not if you don't insist that you have to have this from him.


Thank you. This seems much more reasonable. The way it was coming across to me was "he has to quit his job" which I know he won't do.


That may well be what he finally decides to do. The important thing is that you need to insist that you need his undivided attention outside of your home for fifteen hours a week. Don't roll over, give up, stop talking about it, etc. Bring this problem up frequently, keep it on the front burner, until it is addressed.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 06:12 PM
Originally Posted By: happyheart
Oh my,

I just read about the unlimited hours a person can work in Texas. And I thought 42 hours was bad (considering normal work week was 36-38 where I used to live...). Here, regular days over 10 hours are illegal...

Well except for emigration, you have to find the time to have fun with your husband. Much of this time, should be spent in blocks of 2-4 hours.

Wednesday:
You could go out with him right after work, if he is ready 17:30 and spend 3 hours relaxing and having fun together.

Saturday: you have 8 hours of time between 13:00 and 21:00 where you can put in 4 hours family time and 4 hours UA time.

Sunday, you also have 12 waking hours and can put in family and UA time.

On 1-2 of the other days, you could have lunch with him, if possible in private, since you are working at the same school.

The thing is, though, that
1. it is very hard to have an integrated life, if your husband is spending so much time away from the family.
2. if anything unexpected comes up, and it always does, you don't have 15 hours and will be stressed because there is no redundance in your schedule.

Is it an option to attend some of the games with him, not to spend time with him during the game, but you could explore the town and drive home with him.
It is dangerous for him to have so much time without you, especially since he is probably mixing with young people who do all kinds of not-marriage-compatible things, like partying with cheerleaders etc.


Thank you for your thoughtful suggestions. I have often thought that we should make Wednesday night our "weekly date night", I think that might could work.

The lunch idea is good. Right now we do actually eat lunch together, but not alone. We eat in the teacher's lounge with everyone. Maybe if we just scheduled 2 days a week where we ate alone. That would get us one more hour (out of the house). It wouldn't necessarily be "fun" but it would let allow us some conversation....

Thanks again for the thoughtful reply. And yes the hours are ridiculous, and this is the LEAST hours he has ever had to work. At the two schools he worked at during the first 10 years of our marriage. He honestly worked 7 days a week. Many coaches have figured their salaries to be less than a $ per hour, if all time is considered.
Posted By: markos Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 06:14 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
I understand what you are saying and I would think if we were just sleeping or not interacting in any way that the time would not count. The only way I would think the time in the room would count was if we were talking / interacting or having sex. To be honest, most of the time now, he doesn't even come to bed with me, unless we basically already know that we are going to have sex. He typically ends up falling asleep on the couch before I go to bed, and then coming in the room a couple hours later.

I have asked him numerous times to come with me, and he says he doesn't do it on purpose, that he is just so exhausted....which I understand that he really is exhausted. I do get the point about their being clothes laying around, etc (other distractions).


That's exactly why Dr. Harley says UA time at home doesn't work. Most husbands will be too tired, too distracted, etc. Going out on a date is energizing. Sitting down together at home is not.

This is what I posted before and it comes from talking directly to Dr. Harley about it:

Quote:
UA time at home will not work because he will ignore her. He will not give her his undivided attention. He will divide his attention between her and things at home. Even if the children are asleep.

No woman who is having trouble getting her husband to do UA should be encouraged to do UA at home.
Posted By: markos Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 06:16 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Thanks again for the thoughtful reply. And yes the hours are ridiculous, and this is the LEAST hours he has ever had to work.


Dr. Harley has never had a man lose his job from telling their employer that their wife has to come first.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 06:19 PM
Quote:
The lunch idea is good. Right now we do actually eat lunch together, but not alone. We eat in the teacher's lounge with everyone. Maybe if we just scheduled 2 days a week where we ate alone. That would get us one more hour (out of the house). It wouldn't necessarily be "fun" but it would let allow us some conversation....

Do not count this time as UA unless it is fun and at least 2 hours alone. Squeezing an hour in here and there to make a check on the list will not work. You need to schedule everything else around your marriage, not the other way around.

It needs to be the highlight of your week.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 06:24 PM

Originally Posted By: happyheart
Is it an option to attend some of the games with him, not to spend time with him during the game, but you could explore the town and drive home with him.
It is dangerous for him to have so much time without you, especially since he is probably mixing with young people who do all kinds of not-marriage-compatible things, like partying with cheerleaders etc.


I do go to many of his games. All his homes games really. I bring the kids as well, that is another way I attempt to allow him to see the kids and for them to see him. But there is no possible alone time at a game, so I would assume that doesn't count, plus he has responsibilities even after the game is over. If it is a home game they have to fix the field, make sure the kids are picked up, lock up the locker rooms and fields, etc. If it is an away game then majority of the time he is the bus driver. Most schools have quit hiring bus drivers and forced the coaches to get their CDL, so they can make them drive without having to spend the money of a bus driver. This has been the same at all 3 districts we have been in. Some of the other coaches have health issues that permit them from driving....

As for the spending time with the young people. I don't think they have any influence on him or have any negative impact on our marriage. He is really good about not engaging them in any conversations about drinking, partying etc. Some of the other coaches are not so great about this. If anything he tries to encourage them against making bad decisions.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 06:30 PM
Originally Posted By: Prisca
Quote:
The lunch idea is good. Right now we do actually eat lunch together, but not alone. We eat in the teacher's lounge with everyone. Maybe if we just scheduled 2 days a week where we ate alone. That would get us one more hour (out of the house). It wouldn't necessarily be "fun" but it would let allow us some conversation....

Do not count this time as UA unless it is fun and at least 2 hours alone. Squeezing an hour in here and there to make a check on the list will not work. You need to schedule everything else around your marriage, not the other way around.

It needs to be the highlight of your week.


Ok, the reason I thought this might count is because "conversation" is one of my biggest needs. So if it was an opportunity to meet a need, I thought it might count. I am just trying to get creative, because obviously our schedule doesn't make for a lot of options.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 06:34 PM
Originally Posted By: markos
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Thanks again for the thoughtful reply. And yes the hours are ridiculous, and this is the LEAST hours he has ever had to work.


Dr. Harley has never had a man lose his job from telling their employer that their wife has to come first.


If my husband had to leave practice or a game for me once, then no he would not lose his job. If he said, "coach once a week my wife and I are going to go out and I will have to leave mid-way through practice", then yes he would absolutely lose his job. None of the head coach's he has had would have accepted anything like that.
Posted By: markos Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 06:34 PM
Don't make it easy for him to squeeze in a bit here and there - insist that he needs to put you and your marriage first. You won't help him by accepting less from him.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 06:34 PM
Quote:
because obviously our schedule doesn't make for a lot of options.

The two of you will probably need to brainstorm ways to change your schedule.
Posted By: markos Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 06:35 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Originally Posted By: markos
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Thanks again for the thoughtful reply. And yes the hours are ridiculous, and this is the LEAST hours he has ever had to work.


Dr. Harley has never had a man lose his job from telling their employer that their wife has to come first.


If my husband had to leave practice or a game for me once, then no he would not lose his job. If he said, "coach once a week my wife and I are going to go out and I will have to leave mid-way through practice", then yes he would absolutely lose his job. None of the head coach's he has had would have accepted anything like that.


Dr. Harley's never had it happen with any of the men he's worked with.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 06:37 PM
Originally Posted By: happyheart
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Originally Posted By: happyheart
Also, since he is coming home after 8, why don't you have the children go to their rooms by 19:30, so you can have time for yourself, untill your husband comes home?


I can't do this because then the kids would never see their dad. That is not fair either. They don't stay up much after he gets home, but they are typically still up. The little one is sometimes in bed, if he has a longer than usual night.


They don't have to sleep rightaway, but if you like, you can get them used to playing in their room for x time in their pajamas after teeth brushing until your husband comes home to tell them their bedtime story/say good night etc. But it is less hectic than when you still have to get them ready. Also, it is fair for the children to get at least 12 hours of sleep as they will be less tired during the day and in the morning.

Of course I do not live in your home, it is just my experience with my 5 children.


I agree about the kids needing a lot of sleep. They don't go to bed that late, the little one is in bed before 8 (usually 7:45) and the oldest goes to bed at 8:30 (sometimes it is closer to 9). I always have the little one ready for bed already when he gets home. Basically he says hi and we head to the bed. The oldest usually plays with him for a bit then we head to bed. But he can basically get himself ready for bed.

Also, they both take great naps so they get additional sleep there also. I have a feeling bed time will need to be bumped up for the 5 year old next year when he starts kinder, he is still used to taking 2 hour naps everyday and I know he will not get that opportunity next year.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 06:45 PM
Originally Posted By: markos
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Originally Posted By: markos
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Thanks again for the thoughtful reply. And yes the hours are ridiculous, and this is the LEAST hours he has ever had to work.


Dr. Harley has never had a man lose his job from telling their employer that their wife has to come first.


If my husband had to leave practice or a game for me once, then no he would not lose his job. If he said, "coach once a week my wife and I are going to go out and I will have to leave mid-way through practice", then yes he would absolutely lose his job. None of the head coach's he has had would have accepted anything like that.


Dr. Harley's never had it happen with any of the men he's worked with.


The previous coach (head football coach) he worked for (who was by far the most demanding that he has ever had) required them to work Saturdays all through the year, even when it wasn't football season. He expected them to be available for their outside fundraisers, 7 on 7 games (that were not even school related), etc.

And yes, he ran off numerous coaches that were not willing to work everything that he expected them to. Coaching is so different than other positions. They have to have good reasons to get rid of you in a normal job, including teaching, but in Texas, the football coach seems to be able to hire or get rid of anyone he pleases no matter what. That is why when a new coach is hired, the old staff (not just the head coach) is usually all let go no matter if they had done anything wrong or not.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 06:46 PM
Originally Posted By: Prisca
Quote:
because obviously our schedule doesn't make for a lot of options.

The two of you will probably need to brainstorm ways to change your schedule.


I agree. It will take us getting creative.
Posted By: happyheart Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 07:00 PM
In the long run, is coaching the right thing for him? Because you make it sound like a lot of work with little pay-off. Or is it possible for him to start something on his own?
Posted By: happyheart Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 07:01 PM
I understand that it will have been a life-long boy's dream, but is it compatible with life as the father of a family?
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 07:03 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
The previous coach (head football coach) he worked for (who was by far the most demanding that he has ever had) required them to work Saturdays all through the year, even when it wasn't football season. He expected them to be available for their outside fundraisers, 7 on 7 games (that were not even school related), etc.

And yes, he ran off numerous coaches that were not willing to work everything that he expected them to. Coaching is so different than other positions. They have to have good reasons to get rid of you in a normal job, including teaching, but in Texas, the football coach seems to be able to hire or get rid of anyone he pleases no matter what. That is why when a new coach is hired, the old staff (not just the head coach) is usually all let go no matter if they had done anything wrong or not.

This is probably not a marriage-friendly career anyway, then.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 07:07 PM
Originally Posted By: happyheart
In the long run, is coaching the right thing for him? Because you make it sound like a lot of work with little pay-off. Or is it possible for him to start something on his own?


It is a lot of work with little financial payoff. The payoff is his passion about it. He tried getting into sales, when we were first married. He was actually very successful, made a lot of money and a good name for himself. BUT he was miserable, he hated it. I encouraged him to get back into coaching, even with the pay-cut because our marriage and his personal well being was suffering.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 07:10 PM
Originally Posted By: Prisca
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
The previous coach (head football coach) he worked for (who was by far the most demanding that he has ever had) required them to work Saturdays all through the year, even when it wasn't football season. He expected them to be available for their outside fundraisers, 7 on 7 games (that were not even school related), etc.

And yes, he ran off numerous coaches that were not willing to work everything that he expected them to. Coaching is so different than other positions. They have to have good reasons to get rid of you in a normal job, including teaching, but in Texas, the football coach seems to be able to hire or get rid of anyone he pleases no matter what. That is why when a new coach is hired, the old staff (not just the head coach) is usually all let go no matter if they had done anything wrong or not.

This is probably not a marriage-friendly career anyway, then.


You are right it is not marriage friendly. The way I see it is I have to make the best out of it. He is not very happy when he is not coaching and therefor we weren't happy either. I knew he was a coach and likely would be for the rest of his life, so how would that be fair to expect something different after marriage?
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 07:14 PM
Originally Posted By: Prisca
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
The previous coach (head football coach) he worked for (who was by far the most demanding that he has ever had) required them to work Saturdays all through the year, even when it wasn't football season. He expected them to be available for their outside fundraisers, 7 on 7 games (that were not even school related), etc.

And yes, he ran off numerous coaches that were not willing to work everything that he expected them to. Coaching is so different than other positions. They have to have good reasons to get rid of you in a normal job, including teaching, but in Texas, the football coach seems to be able to hire or get rid of anyone he pleases no matter what. That is why when a new coach is hired, the old staff (not just the head coach) is usually all let go no matter if they had done anything wrong or not.

This is probably not a marriage-friendly career anyway, then.


You're right and that particular coach had a terrible marriage. He made it well known that he disliked his wife, to be honest no one blamed him. She was down right rude to everyone...including him. This made it even more difficult because I don't think he understood why some of the coaches had a problem being away from their families.

The coach he is under now is not married, divorced with grown children, but does seem to be more understanding about family than the previous was. That is one reason we wanted to change jobs/ locations when we did.
Posted By: markos Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 07:17 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Originally Posted By: Prisca
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
The previous coach (head football coach) he worked for (who was by far the most demanding that he has ever had) required them to work Saturdays all through the year, even when it wasn't football season. He expected them to be available for their outside fundraisers, 7 on 7 games (that were not even school related), etc.

And yes, he ran off numerous coaches that were not willing to work everything that he expected them to. Coaching is so different than other positions. They have to have good reasons to get rid of you in a normal job, including teaching, but in Texas, the football coach seems to be able to hire or get rid of anyone he pleases no matter what. That is why when a new coach is hired, the old staff (not just the head coach) is usually all let go no matter if they had done anything wrong or not.

This is probably not a marriage-friendly career anyway, then.


You are right it is not marriage friendly. The way I see it is I have to make the best out of it.


What if the best of it is a failed marriage? What if that's the absolute best that can made of this?
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 07:26 PM
I understand that y'all are saying a marriage is more important than a job. I just know the job is going to change, at-least not now anyway. And I am not willing to ruin a family and call it quits over a job.

Now, the pain he causes me is another story, if that did not get better it could cost the marriage. I have hope that he can change that, he is already starting to make progress, and I do still love him, and I think he feels the same about me. We just have not been productive about showing that and somewhere along the way we started on a downward spiral.
Posted By: markos Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 07:34 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
I understand that y'all are saying a marriage is more important than a job. I just know the job is going to change, at-least not now anyway. And I am not willing to ruin a family and call it quits over a job.


It takes two, though JBKT. If he won't spend that time with you, it will ruin the marriage and family.
Posted By: PoppyNJ Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 07:41 PM
But without the 15 hours of UA, there will not be enough love units deposited to fill your love bank. Even if he stopped all of his love busters (which he should) that will not fill your love bank. It will only stop units from being withdrawn.

You need not to have sacrificial cows....all things need to be considered to get your 15-20 hours....jobs, house size and payments, children activities, time with family and friends...

The ua time make you both fall in love and make good will easier.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 08:03 PM
Quote:
I understand that y'all are saying a marriage is more important than a job. I just know the job is going to change, at-least not now anyway. And I am not willing to ruin a family and call it quits over a job.

Marriage Builders will not work for you if the job is more important than the marriage.

You do not have to follow the plan. No one can force you. But don't expect things to get better. Marriage Builders does not have the option of "make the best of it."
Posted By: alis Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 08:17 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
I understand that y'all are saying a marriage is more important than a job. I just know the job is going to change, at-least not now anyway. And I am not willing to ruin a family and call it quits over a job.

Now, the pain he causes me is another story, if that did not get better it could cost the marriage. I have hope that he can change that, he is already starting to make progress, and I do still love him, and I think he feels the same about me. We just have not been productive about showing that and somewhere along the way we started on a downward spiral.


That "somewhere" was when everything else mattered more.

Think back to that rude ex-coach's wife. Their marriage was failing, and he was out with you guys/coaching events. You understand that is your future, right? You understand that you can't put this on the backburner forever?

You guys are unwilling to make the overhauls required for romantic love. That much is clear. You want the results, but without making a stand. Your sacrifices WILL catch up.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 09:55 PM
I have been reading your thread from the beginning, and read your old thread too. What stands out like a sore thumb is just how much time you spend trying to convince everyone here how your situation is different, more difficult, and we just don't understand why something that works for so many other people can not work for you.

I know more than I ever wanted to know about football in Texas! As you have worked hard to educate the masses on why this profession is an anomaly that needs a different kind of respect.

You are missing the point entirely. We all have our obstacles, be they professions and careers, passions and hobbies, kids and finances, to overcome to put our marriages first. You are not unique in that. Rather than continue to post about why this will NOT work for you, why not spend your time brainstorming how it WILL work.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 10:00 PM
So your husband hated sales but loves coaching football. These are not the ONLY options in life are they? If neither compliment your marriage, what other options are there?

Could he coach a younger team that has a less demanding schedule? Could you move to another state where the sport is less competitive and demanding? Could he do sales in the football industry or for a sporting goods business, where he could combine his passion and talent? Could he be a private coach, recruiter, etc? Off the top of my head....

This is what you should be doing (together), thinking of ways to either 1) make his career compliment your marriage or 2) find one that does.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 10:03 PM
If your reply is that he is unwilling to make any change, well that is a different problem entirely. Then you are talking about a husband who plans to continue to put his career before his family, and make independent choices regardless of what you think.

That has nothing to do with his job, and everything to do with his willingness to have a marriage of extraordinary care.
Posted By: LearnedTooLate Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 10:46 PM
Sooo, after accounting for ALL of the time invested in this coaching career, others have calculated that the per hour income comes out to about $1.00 per hour???

There have GOT to be other options.

Think, Think, Think.....

LTL
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 10:54 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[When we talked about the 15 hours he said he totally agreed that we were lacking UA time and that it would need to change as well as the love busters. But then his comment was "I don't know if we can get 15 hours but we need to try to get as much as possible".


Just let him know it will take 15 hours for this program to work. Schedule 4 - 4 hour dates out of the house each week. I would keep that on the front burner until he agrees and you have a plan.

If you and your husband REFUSE to implement the POUA, this program won't work. That is your choice, but you are wasting our valuable time if you won't do the program.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 10:57 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
I understand that y'all are saying a marriage is more important than a job. I just know the job is going to change, at-least not now anyway. And I am not willing to ruin a family and call it quits over a job.


Yes you are willing to ruin a family. You are sacrificing your marriage and family over a little job. The status quo will ruin your marriage. Anything that comes before your marriage will eventually come between you. That is what is happening now.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 11:05 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[

Thank you for your thoughtful suggestions. I have often thought that we should make Wednesday night our "weekly date night", I think that might could work.


JB, eliminate any notion of a date "night." Date nightS is what it will take. ONE date NIGHT will not work.

Quote:
The lunch idea is good. Right now we do actually eat lunch together, but not alone. We eat in the teacher's lounge with everyone. Maybe if we just scheduled 2 days a week where we ate alone. That would get us one more hour (out of the house). It wouldn't necessarily be "fun" but it would let allow us some conversation....


One hour blocks are not effective. It needs to be in 2 to 4 hour blocks to be effective. Its not like you and your husband don't have that time every week. YOU DO. You just refuse to do this step. And that is ok, just know the program won't ever work unless you actually do it. Pencil whipping this step is a waste of your time and ours.
Posted By: LearnedTooLate Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/18/15 11:34 PM
When Dr. Harley took on marital couples in his office, I have heard that that he would initially ask/request the couple if they were willing to commit to making the 15 hours of UA time available each week.

It was so instrumental in the overall success of his marital recovery plan, that he would refuse to take them on as clients if they would not agree.

That right there, regardless of the forum members comments advises you mare accurately how Vital that aspect is to a successful marriage.

Recalling your synopsis about the former head coach and the description of his nagging and rude wife..... Do you really think that couple started out that way?

What happened to them is one result of that husbands higher commitment to his coaching career versus his marriage.

Is that the path that you And you husband would like to follow?

Think about that very carefully. Where are you headed with the current status quo?

LTL
Posted By: apples123 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 11:29 AM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Originally Posted By: markos
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
It takes 15 hours to maintain the romantic love in a marriage and 20 hours to CREATE. If you can get in 4 - 4 hour dates per week while he maintains his job, then his job would work. The dates should be scheduled at a time when you both have the most energy in 2 to 4 hour blocks.

Can you do that?


No, we can't, not entirely out of the house anyway. It would be impossible for us as far as time and money is concerned.... So I am just supposed to give up? I know there has to be people who have overcome challenging situations before.

What are y'all suggesting, that I divorce him because he won't want to get a new job? Even if he did get a new job, I have been through that with him and he was miserable. He did that for "us" at the beginning of our marriage. He would only resent me for wanting him to quit doing something he is passionate about.


I wouldn't prescribe "quitting the job" as the solution. I would simply insist that this problem has to be solved, somehow - you need him to spend 15 hours per week with you, and if he wants to solve that by rearranging the schedule, changing jobs, or whatever, anything will work as long as it solves that problem. I'm sure he can come up with lots of options, but not if you don't insist that you have to have this from him.


Thank you. This seems much more reasonable. The way it was coming across to me was "he has to quit his job" which I know he won't do.


No, I work 80 hours per week and still get at least 15hours with my husband. But you must schedule it! Or it never happens.

Also, it isn't football season now, so y'all should be getting a ton of UA and FC time in.

Do y'all watch TV? Because something is eating up time.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 11:37 AM
Wow, that's a really late bedtime for kids the age of yours.

You keep focusing on problems. Any solutions in mind?
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 01:24 PM
Originally Posted By: alis
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
I understand that y'all are saying a marriage is more important than a job. I just know the job is going to change, at-least not now anyway. And I am not willing to ruin a family and call it quits over a job.

Now, the pain he causes me is another story, if that did not get better it could cost the marriage. I have hope that he can change that, he is already starting to make progress, and I do still love him, and I think he feels the same about me. We just have not been productive about showing that and somewhere along the way we started on a downward spiral.


That "somewhere" was when everything else mattered more.

Think back to that rude ex-coach's wife. Their marriage was failing, and he was out with you guys/coaching events. You understand that is your future, right? You understand that you can't put this on the backburner forever?

You guys are unwilling to make the overhauls required for romantic love. That much is clear. You want the results, but without making a stand. Your sacrifices WILL catch up.


I don't want the results without any of the work. I am willing to put in the work, but "it takes 2 to tango". My husband on the other hand, claims he wants a better marriage than we have now, but I'm not so sure he is willing to make much change. To be honest, I think he thinks we are "ok" until some big explosion happens between us, then he wants things to be better.

For example, I brought up some of this last night, and his response was "I thought we were good..." Yes, we were good in the sense that we were not fighting and had not been fighting since we discussed the program. My response was "you're right we have been better, but just because we aren't arguing doesn't mean we have fixed all our issues." I don't think he realizes that it will have to be a lifestyle change, something we are working on on a daily basis. Then he makes me feel like I am just an annoying nagging wife, that doesn't know how to just be, and that is not what I want at all.

And you are correct, that "somewhere" has always been when other things mattered more. Not just the job, a combination of things, there is always something.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 01:29 PM
Originally Posted By: apples123
Wow, that's a really late bedtime for kids the age of yours.

You keep focusing on problems. Any solutions in mind?


My kids sleep great at night, take good naps, and are happy. Most of the other parents of little kids I talk to have similar bed times (maybe a little earlier) and majority of them do NOT sleep through the night. I appreciate all your advice but that comment seemed very judgmental.

You're right we are focusing on the problems. Every solution that comes to my mind or gets talked about on here, I get told, won't work. So I guess I am running out of ideas.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 01:44 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[

You're right we are focusing on the problems. Every solution that comes to my mind or gets talked about on here, I get told, won't work. So I guess I am running out of ideas.


Actually, you mean you won't work. The ideas will work, but you won't because you are not willing to change. If you want things to change then you have to accept that it will take a radical change in your marriage.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 01:47 PM

No, I work 80 hours per week and still get at least 15hours with my husband. But you must schedule it! Or it never happens.

Also, it isn't football season now, so y'all should be getting a ton of UA and FC time in.

Do y'all watch TV? Because something is eating up time. [/quote]

You're right it is not football season it is baseball season. They were just knocked out of the playoffs last week, so this is our first week of not being "in- season" besides the holidays.

What is FC time again, sorry I know UA, but not FC.

No, we really don't watch a lot of tv, after he falls asleep on the couch I watch recorded shows, but that is not until after there is no hope of spending any time together. There is just always something.

Last night for example.... it was the first night since we talked about the program that we really had a chance to spend time together. (The whole family was sick over the weekend). He actually got done at school by 4pm, which is probably the earliest all year. So he calls and says since he is out early, he is going to go by and visit his mom in the hospital. I was dissapointed because I knew it was also the first time for us to have some family time (the kids had really been missing him, as well as me) and hopefully some UA time.

What am I supposed to say, his sister is already giving him a hard time about having to be up there a lot and him not being there. He is trying to go as much as he can, but he has us and a job. She recently moved back and does not have a job yet, and does not have kids.

After he gets home, he decides to clean the room that the dog stays in and put down this anti-bug stuff. All things that he had planned to do over the weekend, before he (we) got sick. When I complain, he says, "you would rather this place go completely to hell, just so we can talk, than for me to get something done".

This was insulting for numerous reasons. 1) He makes it sound as if I am a lazy slob, who doesn't clean the house. 2) I do probably 85% of everything around the house, and take care of the kids. 3.) I didn't even want to "talk" in the way he was making it sound, I just wanted to spend some time together.

He really just doesn't seem to get it. It doesn't help that he just can't sit still. He has to be going going going or else he just goes to sleep. And that is not about me, he is like that all the time, whether I am around or not, and always has been.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 01:47 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[
You're right we are focusing on the problems. Every solution that comes to my mind or gets talked about on here, I get told, won't work. So I guess I am running out of ideas.


You have a million and one reasons why you can't do this or that. If you spent that same effort focusing on ways to make it work, I suspect you would have a great marriage today. But you seem to believe that half measures and fiddling around the edges ["working on communication"] will avail you anything. It won't. And how do we know? Most of us here have been through the Marriage Builders course, have great marriages today and know what works.

The first step in the process is for YOU to get serious. That is the first step. You CAN do these things.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 01:52 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16

He really just doesn't seem to get it. It doesn't help that he just can't sit still. He has to be going going going or else he just goes to sleep. And that is not about me, he is like that all the time, whether I am around or not, and always has been.


YOU don't get it. How is he supposed to know what you want if you don't tell him? Have you told him you are unhappy? Have you showed him this entire program and sold him on it? Does he know it will take 4 - 4 hour dates per week? Does he know he needs to eliminate love busters?

I don't understand how you expect him to adopt a program he doesn't even know about for reasons of which he is unaware!

If you want to change anything, you are going to make more an effort.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 01:53 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[

You're right we are focusing on the problems. Every solution that comes to my mind or gets talked about on here, I get told, won't work. So I guess I am running out of ideas.


Actually, you mean you won't work. The ideas will work, but you won't because you are not willing to change. If you want things to change then you have to accept that it will take a radical change in your marriage.


I just don't get it.... I AM willing to do anything, but it takes more than just me. I guess I am trying to think of things that I know my husband will actually do.\

What good does it do to say we are going to find a different solution for his job, and say we are going to get out of the house 4 times a week when I know he is not able / willing to do that?????

Have any of you started at a point where one spouse was completely on board and the other was only somewhat on board? I know we can't be the only ones. I would guess that it is more common than not.

My thinking is if I can get us headed in the right direction and we both see the rewards in the progress, he will slowly get on board to be 100% in.

What did you do when your spouse wasn't 100 % in???? Any advice.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 01:55 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[

You're right we are focusing on the problems. Every solution that comes to my mind or gets talked about on here, I get told, won't work. So I guess I am running out of ideas.


Actually, you mean you won't work. The ideas will work, but you won't because you are not willing to change. If you want things to change then you have to accept that it will take a radical change in your marriage.


I just don't get it.... I AM willing to do anything, but it takes more than just me. I guess I am trying to think of things that I know my husband will actually do.\

What good does it do to say we are going to find a different solution for his job, and say we are going to get out of the house 4 times a week when I know he is not able / willing to do that?????

Have any of you started at a point where one spouse was completely on board and the other was only somewhat on board? I know we can't be the only ones. I would guess that it is more common than not.

My thinking is if I can get us headed in the right direction and we both see the rewards in the progress, he will slowly get on board to be 100% in.

What did you do when your spouse wasn't 100 % in???? Any advice.


NONE of our spouses were on board when we started. In your marriage NEITHER one of you are on board. You have been on this thread wasting our time with excuses about why this or that won't work.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 01:56 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[My thinking is if I can get us headed in the right direction and we both see the rewards in the progress, he will slowly get on board to be 100% in.


Good luck on that.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 01:58 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: JBKT16

He really just doesn't seem to get it. It doesn't help that he just can't sit still. He has to be going going going or else he just goes to sleep. And that is not about me, he is like that all the time, whether I am around or not, and always has been.


YOU don't get it. How is he supposed to know what you want if you don't tell him? Have you told him you are unhappy? Have you showed him this entire program and sold him on it? Does he know it will take 4 - 4 hour dates per week? Does he know he needs to eliminate love busters?

I don't understand how you expect him to adopt a program he doesn't even know about for reasons of which he is unaware!

If you want to change anything, you are going to make more an effort.


Yes, I have told him. I told him last night that his marriage was falling apart. I don't think it could be more honest than that.

I have showed him a bulk of the program, I knew if I asked him to read every word on the website that he would not do it. So I printed all the basic concepts along with a few of the articles that I thought really pertained to us the most. He read all of it, and I tried to sell him on it. Which he seemed to be a little sold, and yes he did agree to eliminate love busters (both of us did). He has done much better on that since, not perfect but better.

As for the time, his comment was "I agree that we need more quality time together, and that it has been lacking for a long time, but I don't know that we can get 15 hours..."
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 02:01 PM
I think he thinks I am just being overly dramatic or something when I tell him how much I need our marriage to change. It's not until we hit rock bottom that he admits it needs work and says he will make changes.

I have told him over and over again that the changes won't just happen that we need some kind of a plan (this was even before finding this program). So now I am trying to tell him "this is the plan we have been needing to keep us from cycling back like always..."
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 02:02 PM
No, you didn't tell him what it will take. You just told him about your fiddle around the edges plan. You don't even buy this program, so I don't believe you tried to sell him something you don't even want or accept.

Did you take my suggestion and speak to Dr Harley? Maybe Dr Harley can convince your husband?
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 02:08 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[

You're right we are focusing on the problems. Every solution that comes to my mind or gets talked about on here, I get told, won't work. So I guess I am running out of ideas.


Actually, you mean you won't work. The ideas will work, but you won't because you are not willing to change. If you want things to change then you have to accept that it will take a radical change in your marriage.


I just don't get it.... I AM willing to do anything, but it takes more than just me. I guess I am trying to think of things that I know my husband will actually do.\

What good does it do to say we are going to find a different solution for his job, and say we are going to get out of the house 4 times a week when I know he is not able / willing to do that?????

Have any of you started at a point where one spouse was completely on board and the other was only somewhat on board? I know we can't be the only ones. I would guess that it is more common than not.

My thinking is if I can get us headed in the right direction and we both see the rewards in the progress, he will slowly get on board to be 100% in.

What did you do when your spouse wasn't 100 % in???? Any advice.


NONE of our spouses were on board when we started. In your marriage NEITHER one of you are on board. You have been on this thread wasting our time with excuses about why this or that won't work.



If none of your spouses were on board when you started why don't you give me advice on how you got them on board, instead of criticizing me. I really am here for help and guidance, not at all to waste your time. I do want to be on board, honestly I would love to spend 15 hours a week with him, but I don't know how to move forward considering he is only partially on board.....

If you think you are only wasting your time with us, I apologize, if you would like me to quit responding that is what I will do. But I would love your help to know HOW to get someone on board who doesn't think the problems are that serious. (He does understand that the love busters are serious, but does not get how important having MUCH more time is.)
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 02:11 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
No, you didn't tell him what it will take. You just told him about your fiddle around the edges plan. You don't even buy this program, so I don't believe you tried to sell him something you don't even want or accept.

Did you take my suggestion and speak to Dr Harley? Maybe Dr Harley can convince your husband?


He would be furious if I asked him to speak to Dr Harley. I am afraid if I did that he would not be willing to participate in the program at all, and all hope would be lost.

Did you have your spouse speak with him? Was he upset about it at first?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 02:12 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[

If none of your spouses were on board when you started why don't you give me advice on how you got them on board, instead of criticizing me.


Because all of our time is wasted debating the concepts with YOU because you won't accept them. You are not a couple with ONE reluctant spouse, you are a couple with TWO reluctant spouse.

And yes, I am about ready to give up.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 02:13 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
No, you didn't tell him what it will take. You just told him about your fiddle around the edges plan. You don't even buy this program, so I don't believe you tried to sell him something you don't even want or accept.

Did you take my suggestion and speak to Dr Harley? Maybe Dr Harley can convince your husband?


He would be furious if I asked him to speak to Dr Harley. I am afraid if I did that he would not be willing to participate in the program at all, and all hope would be lost.

Did you have your spouse speak with him? Was he upset about it at first?


Like I said, you always have an excuse.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 02:14 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
No, you didn't tell him what it will take. You just told him about your fiddle around the edges plan. You don't even buy this program, so I don't believe you tried to sell him something you don't even want or accept.

Did you take my suggestion and speak to Dr Harley? Maybe Dr Harley can convince your husband?


I DO buy in. I honestly do, I think it is the greatest marriage advice I have ever heard, read, etc. I would love to have a marriage that worked the way that the DR speaks of....I am not skeptical of the program, I am skeptical of our ability to do it, when only one of us really wants it.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 02:15 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[

I DO buy in. I honestly do, I think it is the greatest marriage advice I have ever heard, read, etc. I would love to have a marriage that worked the way that the DR speaks of....I am not skeptical of the program, I am skeptical of our ability to do it, when only one of us really wants it.


I have seen no sign of willingness. NONE. I have seen endless excuses about why you can't do anything.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 02:16 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16

He would be furious if I asked him to speak to Dr Harley.


SO WHAT? Are you going to melt or something? Are you a little girl or a grown woman?
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 02:18 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
No, you didn't tell him what it will take. You just told him about your fiddle around the edges plan. You don't even buy this program, so I don't believe you tried to sell him something you don't even want or accept.

Did you take my suggestion and speak to Dr Harley? Maybe Dr Harley can convince your husband?


He would be furious if I asked him to speak to Dr Harley. I am afraid if I did that he would not be willing to participate in the program at all, and all hope would be lost.

Did you have your spouse speak with him? Was he upset about it at first?


Like I said, you always have an excuse.


Was not trying to make excuses. Just wanted to hear some personal experiences of how people have overcome their spouse not wanting to do it. But no one will share that.

I'm sorry you are ready to give up....isn't their a learning curve for everyone? I can't imagine everyone comes here and instantly implements the program perfectly.

Could you give me advice on how to handle what happened last night when I was hoping for some family time, and he had a million other things to do, and then I end up coming across as the nagging wife?
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 02:21 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: JBKT16

He would be furious if I asked him to speak to Dr Harley.


SO WHAT? Are you going to melt or something? Are you a little girl or a grown woman?


Point taken.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 02:21 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[

Was not trying to make excuses. Just wanted to hear some personal experiences of how people have overcome their spouse not wanting to do it. But no one will share that.


Show me WHERE you have ever asked me that???

Quote:
I'm sorry you are ready to give up....isn't their a learning curve for everyone? I can't imagine everyone comes here and instantly implements the program perfectly.


Deflecting and making excuses is not "learning."

Quote:
Could you give me advice on how to handle what happened last night when I was hoping for some family time, and he had a million other things to do, and then I end up coming across as the nagging wife?


Hope is not a plan. But we have already told you that. We have told you to SCHEDULE your dates. Was this a SCHEDULED DATE?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 02:26 PM
oh, and it is NOT TRUE that we have not told you how to get him on board. I posted this to you on Sunday. YOU STILL HAVE NOT FOLLOWED THE ADVICE!

Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Thank you again for the input. I had read the article earlier, but I just re-read it. The part that stands out to me is the "unconditional love", I do think that he feels my love should be there no matter what. And I want it to be there forever and do believe in unconditional love when referring to illness, financial troubles, those kind of things. But how can you honestly say you will love someone forever no matter how much pain and stress they cause you?


Another point to consider about the illusion of "unconditional love" is to ask yourself if you would still love him if you were divorced and married to another man? Or if he beat you? Molested your children? UL just doesn't work in marriages, as you can see. It leads to neglect and abuse.

Quote:
I agree that he is insecure, that is who he is, at-least with me anyway. When I have said this to him he is very offended and feels like I am calling him names. What can I do to help the matter? I feel like I have tried everything, and nothing changes. The way he behaves because of these feelings are just wearing me down.


It is very offensive to him to hear this so I wouldn't tell him you think he is insecure. I would ask him instead "what can I do to make you feel safe?" Ask if there is anything you are doing that makes him feel uneasy. And keep in mind, his insecurity DOES NOT ENTITLE HIM to bully you.

Quote:
We need to improve on every aspect, but I feel that any progress will end as soon as he feels insecure again.


PLEASE write Dr Harley. He can get both you and your husband on the phone and get him on the right track. He is amazingly persuasive. And it does not cost you a PENNY. Nothing. They will even send you a free book. This is one way I got all my books for free over the years! smile
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 03:09 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[

Was not trying to make excuses. Just wanted to hear some personal experiences of how people have overcome their spouse not wanting to do it. But no one will share that.


Show me WHERE you have ever asked me that???

Quote:
I'm sorry you are ready to give up....isn't their a learning curve for everyone? I can't imagine everyone comes here and instantly implements the program perfectly.


Deflecting and making excuses is not "learning."

Quote:
Could you give me advice on how to handle what happened last night when I was hoping for some family time, and he had a million other things to do, and then I end up coming across as the nagging wife?


Hope is not a plan. But we have already told you that. We have told you to SCHEDULE your dates. Was this a SCHEDULED DATE?


I asked earlier to share how you got your spouses on board. Everyone gets their spouse on board by having them talk to Dr H?

You're right, making excuses is not learning. You are also right that hope is not a plan. We had committed to sitting down Sunday night and making a plan for the week. We both thought this was a great idea. But then we were throwing up. Obviously we didn't purposely get sick just to avoid following through, but once again we didn't.

I thought since we didn't do it Sunday, by default we would try to Monday, but he doesn't think like that. Making anything happen will definitely depend on me.

So if something is not planned out, what are the expectations? If we planned a date one night, but the next night is open. Do I expect him to be tuned out all night? If nothing is "planned" does it let him off the hook for spending time with us? I am asking for suggestions here, if you are still willing to give them.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 03:16 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[

I asked earlier to share how you got your spouses on board. Everyone gets their spouse on board by having them talk to Dr H?


And I have told you how to get him on board. You have endless excuses why you can't do that.

Quote:

So if something is not planned out, what are the expectations? If we planned a date one night, but the next night is open. Do I expect him to be tuned out all night? If nothing is "planned" does it let him off the hook for spending time with us? I am asking for suggestions here, if you are still willing to give them.


Plan out your week and that way you are not disappointed.

However, I don't understand what you are doing since you have told us that 4 4 hour dates are impossible. What would be the point of this exercise if the goal is impossible?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 03:19 PM
My last suggestion is to read the thread again [and your old one] and decide if YOU are serious. Because I don't see a serious person here. I see a person who wants magic but is not willing to take any of the steps that would affect change. All of the answers are on this thread if you decide to take them. Good luck....
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 03:19 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
No, you didn't tell him what it will take. You just told him about your fiddle around the edges plan. You don't even buy this program, so I don't believe you tried to sell him something you don't even want or accept.

Did you take my suggestion and speak to Dr Harley? Maybe Dr Harley can convince your husband?


He would be furious if I asked him to speak to Dr Harley. I am afraid if I did that he would not be willing to participate in the program at all, and all hope would be lost.


Not at all. Anger or dismissal is a temporary thing, it's nothing. Conflict avoidance however is infinite. It's not all hope is lost if you don't get immediate agreement it's all hope is lost if nothing changes. You have nothing to lose.

The main problem here is you are too timid. It's common for men to think their wives are being overly dramatic - but only if she is not making a huge deal.

Not angrily, but cheerfully and persistently.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 04:01 PM
You know, if you haven't read "buyers, renters, and freeloaders," you really should.


You need to make a plan. What you will do, how you will respond to his disrespect. You shouldn't tolerate someone treating you so disrespectfully. As long as you are willing to put up with it, it will continue. You seem to have mistaken what marriage builders is. It is not about staying together no matter what. It is about creating a great marriage.

If that is not your goal, this is not the best place for you.

If it is your goal, you need to start taking action.
Posted By: alis Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 04:06 PM
We went through this. Same age as you, and our kids are same age.

In late 2011, we had a two year old, and I was pregnant. Replace football/independent life with video games.

I told him I would make plans to SEPARATE unless he was willing to make us a priority. And I was dead serious.

That, JBKT, is rock bottom. And it was transforming, as we made marriage #1. We even relocated and changed careers. When your marriage is #1, nothing else matters as much. I make $15/hour BELOW my "market value" - don't care. Hubby passes promotions - don't care. We are happy!

I was serious. Are you? Because he knows you aren't that serious.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 05:59 PM
Originally Posted By: alis
We went through this. Same age as you, and our kids are same age.

In late 2011, we had a two year old, and I was pregnant. Replace football/independent life with video games.

I told him I would make plans to SEPARATE unless he was willing to make us a priority. And I was dead serious.

That, JBKT, is rock bottom. And it was transforming, as we made marriage #1. We even relocated and changed careers. When your marriage is #1, nothing else matters as much. I make $15/hour BELOW my "market value" - don't care. Hubby passes promotions - don't care. We are happy!

I was serious. Are you? Because he knows you aren't that serious.


Thank you, I honestly don't want it to come to this, but I know it could. I have a couple times, when things got really bad, told him I was going to leave. He threatened to take the kids from me, says his family has more money and would hire better lawyers....

I think he also knows that there is no way financially for either of us to be able to be on our own. He also knows I don't want that for a lot of reasons. I think that is part of why he doesn't take my complaints seriously.

Why would he need a real threat of me leaving before he got serious....wouldn't you want it never to get to that point? I was very close once, to the point where I drove to his parents house and told them everything that had been going on. They came over and talked to him and helped us talk. I was desperate and didn't know what to do other than leave.

Did the thought of you leaving instantly get him on board? Thanks for sharing your story.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 06:07 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
My last suggestion is to read the thread again [and your old one] and decide if YOU are serious. Because I don't see a serious person here. I see a person who wants magic but is not willing to take any of the steps that would affect change. All of the answers are on this thread if you decide to take them. Good luck....


I am serious, and I have read the thread back a couple of times now. I see that I was not serious during the first thread, honestly I didn't even know about the program during the first thread. I was just looking for feedback.

We went to lunch together today and he actually brought it up. I think he is starting to see I am serious. We began to plan out the rest of our week, but had to quit when the bell rang. Maybe this is a start. I re-emphasized that from now on we need to plan the week on Sunday night. He agreed.
Posted By: alis Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 06:10 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Originally Posted By: alis
We went through this. Same age as you, and our kids are same age.

In late 2011, we had a two year old, and I was pregnant. Replace football/independent life with video games.

I told him I would make plans to SEPARATE unless he was willing to make us a priority. And I was dead serious.

That, JBKT, is rock bottom. And it was transforming, as we made marriage #1. We even relocated and changed careers. When your marriage is #1, nothing else matters as much. I make $15/hour BELOW my "market value" - don't care. Hubby passes promotions - don't care. We are happy!

I was serious. Are you? Because he knows you aren't that serious.


Thank you, I honestly don't want it to come to this, but I know it could. I have a couple times, when things got really bad, told him I was going to leave. He threatened to take the kids from me, says his family has more money and would hire better lawyers....

I think he also knows that there is no way financially for either of us to be able to be on our own. He also knows I don't want that for a lot of reasons. I think that is part of why he doesn't take my complaints seriously.

Why would he need a real threat of me leaving before he got serious....wouldn't you want it never to get to that point? I was very close once, to the point where I drove to his parents house and told them everything that had been going on. They came over and talked to him and helped us talk. I was desperate and didn't know what to do other than leave.

Did the thought of you leaving instantly get him on board? Thanks for sharing your story.


I was in such a state of withdrawl that my emotionless, serious, statement couldn't be taken as anything to mess with.

Plus, my husband was a good husband who allowed bad habits to form. It required a head-shaking to realize was happened. BTW, not all spouses will come on board. Some are not interested in extraordinary care.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 06:22 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
My last suggestion is to read the thread again [and your old one] and decide if YOU are serious. Because I don't see a serious person here. I see a person who wants magic but is not willing to take any of the steps that would affect change. All of the answers are on this thread if you decide to take them. Good luck....


I am serious, and I have read the thread back a couple of times now. I see that I was not serious during the first thread, honestly I didn't even know about the program during the first thread. I was just looking for feedback.

We went to lunch together today and he actually brought it up. I think he is starting to see I am serious. We began to plan out the rest of our week, but had to quit when the bell rang. Maybe this is a start. I re-emphasized that from now on we need to plan the week on Sunday night. He agreed.



Being serious is evidenced by action steps and that has not happened. I see no evidence that you are serious. Planning the week on Sunday won't matter if you can't find time for the 15+ hours.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 06:24 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[Why would he need a real threat of me leaving before he got serious....wouldn't you want it never to get to that point? I was very close once, to the point where I drove to his parents house and told them everything that had been going on. They came over and talked to him and helped us talk. I was desperate and didn't know what to do other than leave.


What happened to the lady in the article we posted? [When to Call it Quits]

What happened to alis?
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 06:47 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[Why would he need a real threat of me leaving before he got serious....wouldn't you want it never to get to that point? I was very close once, to the point where I drove to his parents house and told them everything that had been going on. They came over and talked to him and helped us talk. I was desperate and didn't know what to do other than leave.


What happened to the lady in the article we posted? [When to Call it Quits]

What happened to alis?


I understand that taking those steps (separating) works and that they will get serious or it will be over. I just thought that would be a last resort. How do you know when you are to that point? When it couldn't be solved without making such a dramatic change to the kids lives.
Posted By: FightTheFight Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 07:05 PM
Step 1:

Quote:
The first step, as I mentioned earlier, should be to express your need clearly without demands, disrespect, or anger. Invite your husband to complete the Emotional Needs Questionnaire with you that can be copied from the Questionnaires section of the Marriage Builders® website. After you have each described your most important emotional needs, the book ,"His Needs, Her Needs," will help you learn to meet those needs for each other. The accompanying workbook, "Five Steps to Romantic Love," provides worksheets that will help you both implement a plan to turn need -- fulfilling behavior into habits.


Quote:
[I]f your husband refuses to accept your offer, the next step I recommend is very controversial, but when you compare it to the alternatives, it makes the most sense. It has two parts. I call one part plan A, and the other plan B. These two parts are to be executed sequentially -- plan A is first, followed by plan B.


Step 2a:

Quote:
[B]efore you begin plan A, prepare for plan B, which is to completely separate from your husband. You can't simply move out of the bedroom. You must move from the house, or have him move. If you live in a state that supports legal separation, go to the trouble to see an attorney so that all financial and legal arrangements are made in advance. Be sure that you can support yourself for an extended period of time, such as a year.


Example Given:

Quote:
After Ellen agreed to follow my plan A/plan B approach, it took her almost a year to prepare for plan B. She saw an attorney, saved some money, got a better paying job, and found an apartment that appealed to her.


Step 2b:

Plan A

Example Given:

Quote:
About one month before she was ready to implement plan B, she poured on the charm with plan A, all the while encouraging Ken to join her in learning how to meet each others emotional needs. Ken loved all the attention (and sex) he was getting, but remained firm in his conviction that he shouldn't have to learn to meet her emotional needs. He believed in unconditional love.


Step 3:

Plan B

Example Given:

Quote:
After a month had passed, when Ken returned home from work, there was a note on the kitchen table from Ellen. She explained that she loved him, and wanted their marriage to be successful. But because the relationship was one -- sided, with she doing all the giving, and he doing all the taking, she decided that it was time to do something about it. If he wanted to talk with her, she could be reached on her cell phone.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 07:41 PM
Fightthefight, thanks for laying it out so succinctly. In addition to the extra resources mentioned above, you should consult with Dr. Harley and ask him to help you persuade your husband.
Posted By: happyheart Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 07:48 PM
Husband had a sales job that made good money but he was unhappy, which made the family unhappy.

Now he has his dream coaching jub, he apperently loves, although he does not seem happy from what you tell about him, rather exhausted. The job pays less than his sales job, has worse hours and takes him away from the family and from his wife, which makes you unhappy.

The only upside is, that he was in a worse mood in his former job. When he is in a bad mood he makes the entire family unhappy.

There must be an alternative that accomodates having a family life and makes you AND him AND the children AND MAYBE his family happy.
If he has no time to care for sick relatives, he has no time. Nobody can magically make the day have more hours
(trust me, if it could happen, I would have found a way).
Posted By: happyheart Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 07:51 PM
If a job is so time-consuming and exhausting, there must be compensation in the form of pay, so that a person can pay another human being to do the things he cannot do during the time spent working (like hunting for food, mowing the lawn, caring for the sick).

If the pay-off is not there and the work is making the person happy, but not worth it in pay, it is not called a job, it is called a hobby.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 08:38 PM
That's great, FTF!
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/19/15 08:42 PM
JBK, women get their husbands on board by setting the bar high and not settling for crumbs. She tells him: "In order to be happy in our marriage, I need you to take me on 4 dates out of the house every week. I need you to meet these emotional needs for me. I need you to never lovebust me again." If he refuses, she separates. She doesn't try to figure out how to make it work on his terms -- "Since you LOVE your job so much, I'll settle for 1 date night a week, and sitting with you on the couch while you fall asleep at night."

Set the bar high. He's only going to do as much as is required to keep you.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/20/15 03:35 PM
Originally Posted By: Prisca
JBK, women get their husbands on board by setting the bar high and not settling for crumbs. She tells him: "In order to be happy in our marriage, I need you to take me on 4 dates out of the house every week. I need you to meet these emotional needs for me. I need you to never lovebust me again." If he refuses, she separates. She doesn't try to figure out how to make it work on his terms -- "Since you LOVE your job so much, I'll settle for 1 date night a week, and sitting with you on the couch while you fall asleep at night."

Set the bar high. He's only going to do as much as is required to keep you.


I agree, I have not set the bar high enough, and that is why we are where we are.

The weird thing is I am a very confident person who typically stands my ground with everything, but with him, for some reason it is different.

In the beginning I did, but I would notice us fighting more and more and I guess I somehow thought I was protecting our marriage by being willing to "compromise / settle" (thinking I was avoiding us fighting even more). Now I totally understand how this only harmed us. I was being the "giver" all the time, now that I am familiar with the program I realize that I was "giving" and then I began "taking". Which at the time I felt like I was finally not settling, but I was also not being considerate. I have learned so much here, I just hope it is not too late to turn it around.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/20/15 03:41 PM
Originally Posted By: happyheart
Husband had a sales job that made good money but he was unhappy, which made the family unhappy.

Now he has his dream coaching jub, he apperently loves, although he does not seem happy from what you tell about him, rather exhausted. The job pays less than his sales job, has worse hours and takes him away from the family and from his wife, which makes you unhappy.

The only upside is, that he was in a worse mood in his former job. When he is in a bad mood he makes the entire family unhappy.

There must be an alternative that accomodates having a family life and makes you AND him AND the children AND MAYBE his family happy.
If he has no time to care for sick relatives, he has no time. Nobody can magically make the day have more hours
(trust me, if it could happen, I would have found a way).




He is happy in this job, and yes sometimes exhausted. Most of the love busters come in once his feelings of insecurity kick in. When he is not feeling that way, he is happy, and in return we are typically happy (yes it is more complicated than that, but that is where it starts).

That's why I brought up the feelings of insecurity earlier, because I would guess that they lead to 90% of the love busters on both sides. Honestly it feels like I am married to two different people at times (the happy charming guy / and the insecure one who takes those feelings out in horrible ways).

People that know him through work would have no idea that he is the way he is. He is charming, funny, very intelligent, good at everything he does, no one would ever guess what goes on behind the scenes.

And yes, I do understand that even without the love busters, we will not have the marriage we need unless we get the UA time.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/20/15 03:58 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Originally Posted By: Prisca
JBK, women get their husbands on board by setting the bar high and not settling for crumbs. She tells him: "In order to be happy in our marriage, I need you to take me on 4 dates out of the house every week. I need you to meet these emotional needs for me. I need you to never lovebust me again." If he refuses, she separates. She doesn't try to figure out how to make it work on his terms -- "Since you LOVE your job so much, I'll settle for 1 date night a week, and sitting with you on the couch while you fall asleep at night."

Set the bar high. He's only going to do as much as is required to keep you.


I agree, I have not set the bar high enough, and that is why we are where we are.

The weird thing is I am a very confident person who typically stands my ground with everything, but with him, for some reason it is different.

In the beginning I did, but I would notice us fighting more and more and I guess I somehow thought I was protecting our marriage by being willing to "compromise / settle" (thinking I was avoiding us fighting even more). Now I totally understand how this only harmed us. I was being the "giver" all the time, now that I am familiar with the program I realize that I was "giving" and then I began "taking". Which at the time I felt like I was finally not settling, but I was also not being considerate. I have learned so much here, I just hope it is not too late to turn it around.


Did you listen to the show from yesterday? Dr. Harley was talk about women who are different while with their husbands.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/20/15 04:15 PM
Originally Posted By: apples123
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Originally Posted By: Prisca
JBK, women get their husbands on board by setting the bar high and not settling for crumbs. She tells him: "In order to be happy in our marriage, I need you to take me on 4 dates out of the house every week. I need you to meet these emotional needs for me. I need you to never lovebust me again." If he refuses, she separates. She doesn't try to figure out how to make it work on his terms -- "Since you LOVE your job so much, I'll settle for 1 date night a week, and sitting with you on the couch while you fall asleep at night."

Set the bar high. He's only going to do as much as is required to keep you.


I agree, I have not set the bar high enough, and that is why we are where we are.

The weird thing is I am a very confident person who typically stands my ground with everything, but with him, for some reason it is different.

In the beginning I did, but I would notice us fighting more and more and I guess I somehow thought I was protecting our marriage by being willing to "compromise / settle" (thinking I was avoiding us fighting even more). Now I totally understand how this only harmed us. I was being the "giver" all the time, now that I am familiar with the program I realize that I was "giving" and then I began "taking". Which at the time I felt like I was finally not settling, but I was also not being considerate. I have learned so much here, I just hope it is not too late to turn it around.


Did you listen to the show from yesterday? Dr. Harley was talk about women who are different while with their husbands.


No, I did not listen yesterday. Would you mind sharing some of what he said?
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/20/15 04:17 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
No, I did not listen yesterday. Would you mind sharing some of what he said?

Listen to it now. It will be rebroadcast for another few hours.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/20/15 04:34 PM
Originally Posted By: SugarCane
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
No, I did not listen yesterday. Would you mind sharing some of what he said?

Listen to it now. It will be rebroadcast for another few hours.


I would love to but I am in the middle of class right now. My team had a meeting during my conference period, so I couldn't do anything personal during that time today. I need to bring some ear buds up so I can listen if I get a chance.

Normally I don't have hardly anytime to get on the internet during class, I only do now because it is the end of the year and they are just reviewing with me answering questions as they come up.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/20/15 11:40 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Originally Posted By: SugarCane
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
No, I did not listen yesterday. Would you mind sharing some of what he said?

Listen to it now. It will be rebroadcast for another few hours.


I would love to but I am in the middle of class right now. My team had a meeting during my conference period, so I couldn't do anything personal during that time today. I need to bring some ear buds up so I can listen if I get a chance.

Normally I don't have hardly anytime to get on the internet during class, I only do now because it is the end of the year and they are just reviewing with me answering questions as they come up.


You can download the app to your phone and listen that way anytime. I usually listen to it from my phone app on the way home.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/21/15 04:48 AM
Quote:
Did the thought of you leaving instantly get him on board? Thanks for sharing your story.


No, we wound up divorcing. Believe it or not, I am much happier on my own than I was with an angry, hostile, disrespectful partner, teaching my kids by example to accept poor behavior.

But I am hoping it's not to late for your family!
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/27/15 12:52 PM
Just figured I would update. If you listened to the show yesterday, they mentioned our situation at the end. She emailed and said that they ran out of time, but basically said he needed to be willing to put in the time to his marriage (I agree). The only thing that I didn't think was right on the mark, and likely I didn't explain myself well enough in the email, was them saying that he is being insecure because he wasn't meeting my needs.

They are right that he is not meeting my needs now, but it hasn't always been that way. We have never had a perfect marriage, but in the beginning I do feel like he met my needs. In fact the only problem in the beginning were the fights that stemmed from the feelings of insecurity and the way he handled them.

Anyways, I wanted to say that I continued to push how serious I was. We did a calendar for the week, so far he is holding up his part of it. He even came in joking saying "it is time for undivided attention". He was being silly but he was trying to be enthusiastic about it. The love busters are not gone yet, but they have been minimized. The only time we slipped back a bit was when I was disappointed about the lack of focus he had on the family Sunday. When I tried to express how I felt to him, he got really irritated and said I was nagging so much about "all of this...". That he was trying and that I was still nagging. He later said that I made him feel like a loser and a failure. He's right he is trying, and that does count, but there are still going to be things that come up.

How do I handle him in a manner where he understands where I am coming from without "being a nag" or making him feel the way he did Sunday? Should I just pick and choose my battles at this point, since we are making progress?

Thanks for any help.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/27/15 08:13 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
The only time we slipped back a bit was when I was disappointed about the lack of focus he had on the family Sunday. When I tried to express how I felt to him, he got really irritated and said I was nagging so much about "all of this...". That he was trying and that I was still nagging. He later said that I made him feel like a loser and a failure. He's right he is trying, and that does count, but there are still going to be things that come up.

How do I handle him in a manner where he understands where I am coming from without "being a nag" or making him feel the way he did Sunday? Should I just pick and choose my battles at this point, since we are making progress?

I would show him the article How to Deal with a Quarrelsome and Nagging Wife and explain to him that it is important that he takes your complaints seriously, now, and every time you make one. If he doesn't, your marriage will regress quickly to the stage where your resentment is so deep that no solution can be found.

You need to work on complaining respectfully. If you are sure that you have eliminated demands, disrespect and angry outbursts when you complain, then his job is to respond to the complaint, and not to dismiss it because it is yet another complaint.

Are you married to a nagging wife? Or does your husband ever accuse you of being a nagging wife? There's a simple way to overcome that problem in your marriage, but it will take the cooperation of both of you.

As a wife, you should put an end to demands, disrespect, and anger whenever a conflict with your husband arises. And don't bring up mistakes of the past. Focus your attention on the problem at hand. Offer your husband the opportunity to discuss it with respect, agreeing to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement until it's resolved. And your husband should have the same right to raise issues with you, without you becoming disrespectful or angry with him.

As a husband, you should address every complaint your wife makes with patience and kindness. You should enter into a discussion with her regarding every issue she raises, and do it without any disrespect or anger on your part. If you think that she has so many issues that you feel overwhelmed by them, organize them together and set priorities. Focus on the three that top her list, and when they are resolved, work your way through it.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/28/15 02:47 PM
Originally Posted By: SugarCane
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
The only time we slipped back a bit was when I was disappointed about the lack of focus he had on the family Sunday. When I tried to express how I felt to him, he got really irritated and said I was nagging so much about "all of this...". That he was trying and that I was still nagging. He later said that I made him feel like a loser and a failure. He's right he is trying, and that does count, but there are still going to be things that come up.

How do I handle him in a manner where he understands where I am coming from without "being a nag" or making him feel the way he did Sunday? Should I just pick and choose my battles at this point, since we are making progress?

I would show him the article How to Deal with a Quarrelsome and Nagging Wife and explain to him that it is important that he takes your complaints seriously, now, and every time you make one. If he doesn't, your marriage will regress quickly to the stage where your resentment is so deep that no solution can be found.

You need to work on complaining respectfully. If you are sure that you have eliminated demands, disrespect and angry outbursts when you complain, then his job is to respond to the complaint, and not to dismiss it because it is yet another complaint.

Are you married to a nagging wife? Or does your husband ever accuse you of being a nagging wife? There's a simple way to overcome that problem in your marriage, but it will take the cooperation of both of you.

As a wife, you should put an end to demands, disrespect, and anger whenever a conflict with your husband arises. And don't bring up mistakes of the past. Focus your attention on the problem at hand. Offer your husband the opportunity to discuss it with respect, agreeing to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement until it's resolved. And your husband should have the same right to raise issues with you, without you becoming disrespectful or angry with him.

As a husband, you should address every complaint your wife makes with patience and kindness. You should enter into a discussion with her regarding every issue she raises, and do it without any disrespect or anger on your part. If you think that she has so many issues that you feel overwhelmed by them, organize them together and set priorities. Focus on the three that top her list, and when they are resolved, work your way through it.


Thank you for the advice. I will have him read the article. The last couple nights have been great between us. To be honest I am not sure if I am "complaining respectfully" or not. I am trying to, but I guess he takes it as nagging. Are there any articles about the best ways to raise concerns without letting your emotions take over? Thanks again.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/28/15 04:21 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Are there any articles about the best ways to raise concerns without letting your emotions take over? Thanks again.

Yes, there is, but rather than linking it for you, I'm going to encourage you to get familiar with the Articles section of this website. Go to the red area at the top of every page and click the link "Articles". Those articles are crucial for you to read several times, if you are to use MB.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/28/15 05:28 PM
Originally Posted By: SugarCane
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Are there any articles about the best ways to raise concerns without letting your emotions take over? Thanks again.

Yes, there is, but rather than linking it for you, I'm going to encourage you to get familiar with the Articles section of this website. Go to the red area at the top of every page and click the link "Articles". Those articles are crucial for you to read several times, if you are to use MB.


I have read every single thing on the site, more than one time, but there is a lot, and I didn't remember specifically reading something like that. But I will continue to read and re-read.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Help Getting Started... - 05/28/15 05:53 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
I have read every single thing on the site, more than one time, but there is a lot, and I didn't remember specifically reading something like that. But I will continue to read and re-read.

Please let me know when you find the article, and what you understand from it.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 06/01/15 04:25 PM
I read the article about negotiating when you are emotional and it is helpful and I understand it. But what are you supposed to do when the other person doesn't want to talk about it at all. He says that all I want is to talk about all "this". Which really isn't the case, what I want is to help us improve.

The love busters had gotten better, but he really hurt me this morning. This is TMI so I appologize in advance.... My period started this morning (earlier than expected) and my husband was clearly irritated by that. My periods were always regular before having kids, but have become more inconsistent after having kids. He ended up making a comment that implied that I cheated on him since my period started early. I know that sounds crazy, but one time after we had sex, I told him he kicked in my period. I wasn't really meaning it so literally, it was time anyway. Ever since then he acts like if my period is off schedule, then I must be cheating on him.

I tried to explain that there was an actual reason this time, the dr changed my prescription for some reason and it threw off my cycle. He then proceeded to say "must be nice being on birth control" once again implying that I would of have cheated on him. The ONLY reason I am on birth control at all is because I was nearly bleeding to death. Ended up being so anemic that I nearly needed a blood tranfusion. From the moment they said I needed to be on birth control to regulate my period, he was ugly about it. This is a health problem (that he never showed much care about in the first place), it would be great to have a little support.

Sorry I guess I am just venting, I am so frustrated. This is a perfect example of how the insecurities will always hold us back, even after we fix the other problems.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Help Getting Started... - 06/01/15 04:34 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
I read the article about negotiating when you are emotional and it is helpful and I understand it. But what are you supposed to do when the other person doesn't want to talk about it at all. He says that all I want is to talk about all "this". Which really isn't the case, what I want is to help us improve....

...The ONLY reason I am on birth control at all is because I was nearly bleeding to death. Ended up being so anemic that I nearly needed a blood tranfusion. From the moment they said I needed to be on birth control to regulate my period, he was ugly about it. This is a health problem (that he never showed much care about in the first place), it would be great to have a little support.

Sorry I guess I am just venting, I am so frustrated. This is a perfect example of how the insecurities will always hold us back, even after we fix the other problems.

You are going around in circles again, I'm sorry to say. You have had the answers, over pages and pages, about what to do when your H will not take your complaints seriously.

You are back to where this thread started. This was posted to you on your first day here:

Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Please read this article and tell me what you think: When to Call It Quits - Part 1

At the moment, you are trying not to reach stage 3 of the "nagging wife". Ultimately, however, how your husband responds to your complaints is up to him. If he does not wake up to the fact that you are trying to save your marriage, you will have to call it quits.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 06/01/15 07:24 PM
You're right I guess I am back to square one. I honestly thought we were making some progress, and he was taking my complaints. But at this point he seems sick of dealing with it.

As for the article, I had read it, and I just re-read it....

My first thoughts are that it seems like it could be very successful, and I know it is. I don't want it to come to that, I think it would be devastating for our kids(I know that having a marriage that is like this is hurtful to the kids as well).

Even if I came to the conclusion that it was my only option, I don't think there is anyway I could support myself, and there is no way he would be pleasant about money. We are barely getting by now, many of the bills are in my name, I already work in one of the highest paying districts, so there is no "finding a higher paying job". How does a spouse go about this when they can't afford to? Since the kids are with me majority of the time, I would be feeding and taking care of three people, not just one, like he would be.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Help Getting Started... - 06/02/15 01:55 AM
You would move to a more affordable place, cut back on extras and make ends meet.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 06/02/15 12:40 PM
We already are cutting back on extras. There is NO extra at all. We don't go shopping, don't stop and get coffee each morning, don't have a gym membership. We already lowered our cable and phone bills recently and even moved our kids to a cheaper daycare. Plus if I were to leave he would never cut back on anything, he would say that was my choice....etc.

I mentioned him being willing to talk to them on the radio-show. He did not agree, but was not as reluctant as I thought he would be. I am going to try to convince him to go on, and maybe that would help give us a jump start. He is thinking that doing this program is my way of controlling him, and I am trying to convince him that it would benefit him as well.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 06/02/15 01:35 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
You're right I guess I am back to square one. I honestly thought we were making some progress, and he was taking my complaints. But at this point he seems sick of dealing with it.

As for the article, I had read it, and I just re-read it....

My first thoughts are that it seems like it could be very successful, and I know it is. I don't want it to come to that, I think it would be devastating for our kids(I know that having a marriage that is like this is hurtful to the kids as well).

Even if I came to the conclusion that it was my only option, I don't think there is anyway I could support myself, and there is no way he would be pleasant about money. We are barely getting by now, many of the bills are in my name, I already work in one of the highest paying districts, so there is no "finding a higher paying job". How does a spouse go about this when they can't afford to? Since the kids are with me majority of the time, I would be feeding and taking care of three people, not just one, like he would be.


Groundhog day. crazy
Posted By: apples123 Re: Help Getting Started... - 06/02/15 01:59 PM
He would cut back if a judge ordered support payments.

Please don't think I'm judging you because many people are in the situation but...are y'all house poor? From what you describe, you have a decent income but no money for babysitters or dates so I wonder if that's an issue.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Help Getting Started... - 06/02/15 02:04 PM
I think Dr. harley addresses budgets in HNHN for Parents.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 06/02/15 02:32 PM
Originally Posted By: apples123
He would cut back if a judge ordered support payments.

Please don't think I'm judging you because many people are in the situation but...are y'all house poor? From what you describe, you have a decent income but no money for babysitters or dates so I wonder if that's an issue.


I understand why you would ask that. You are right we have decent jobs and little to show for it. But the answer to your question is no, I don't believe we are house poor. Our mortgage is 16% of our monthly income. I think I have always heard that it should be kept under 25%??

I would say we are "medical bill / debt poor". We have had a lot of out of the ordinary things thrown at us financially. Yes we could have made some better decisions along the way, but we have also gone through a lot.

We spent thousands and thousands of dollars trying to have kids in the first place, 7 ivf's and 3 miscarriages later, we have two wonderful kids. Should we have taken out so much trying to have kids, maybe not, but we wouldn't trade it for anything.

Then when my little one turned one he began having some health issues. He is two and a half now, two surgeries later, two GI's, and an immunologist and we still don't really have solid answers. In the middle of all this, I started having health issues.... Nothing too serious but the cost added up quick.

Sorry for the long explanation, I know people think I am just making excuses and I know everyone has their issues. But we are honestly faces some challenges that not everyone had to endure financially.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 06/02/15 02:32 PM
Originally Posted By: apples123
He would cut back if a judge ordered support payments.

Please don't think I'm judging you because many people are in the situation but...are y'all house poor? From what you describe, you have a decent income but no money for babysitters or dates so I wonder if that's an issue.


A judge can get involved even if it is just a "seperation"? Sorry for the ignorance.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 06/02/15 02:35 PM
Melody -- I'm sorry you feel the need to be negative toward me. I honestly am looking for support. I don't understand what I am doing so wrong here?

At first I was not willing to ask him to speak with Dr H because I thought he would refuse and it would just lead to yet another fight. Since we were already not getting along, I threw it out there and was surprised not to get a "hell no". I understand that this was your advice initially, but I honestly thought he would never do it.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 06/02/15 02:41 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Melody -- I'm sorry you feel the need to be negative toward me. I honestly am looking for support. I don't understand what I am doing so wrong here?

At first I was not willing to ask him to speak with Dr H because I thought he would refuse and it would just lead to yet another fight. Since we were already not getting along, I threw it out there and was surprised not to get a "hell no". I understand that this was your advice initially, but I honestly thought he would never do it.


I think it is very negative to ask the same question over and over again and then ignore the answers over and over again. Like Sugarcane noted, you are right back to where you started. You spend enormous time coming up with "reasons" you can't do anything. If you spent that time focusing on solutions, you would probably be recovered.

Just go back and re-read your threads. All of your questions have been answered.

Quote:
At first I was not willing to ask him to speak with Dr H because I thought he would refuse and it would just lead to yet another fight. Since we were already not getting along, I threw it out there and was surprised not to get a "hell no". I understand that this was your advice initially, but I honestly thought he would never do it.


You are "not willing" to do almost everything we have advised.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 06/02/15 03:12 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Melody -- I'm sorry you feel the need to be negative toward me. I honestly am looking for support. I don't understand what I am doing so wrong here?

At first I was not willing to ask him to speak with Dr H because I thought he would refuse and it would just lead to yet another fight. Since we were already not getting along, I threw it out there and was surprised not to get a "hell no". I understand that this was your advice initially, but I honestly thought he would never do it.


I think it is very negative to ask the same question over and over again and then ignore the answers over and over again. Like Sugarcane noted, you are right back to where you started. You spend enormous time coming up with "reasons" you can't do anything. If you spent that time focusing on solutions, you would probably be recovered.

Just go back and re-read your threads. All of your questions have been answered.

Quote:
At first I was not willing to ask him to speak with Dr H because I thought he would refuse and it would just lead to yet another fight. Since we were already not getting along, I threw it out there and was surprised not to get a "hell no". I understand that this was your advice initially, but I honestly thought he would never do it.


You are "not willing" to do almost everything we have advised.


I'm sorry you feel like I am asking the same questions. I didn't think asking how you could do a separation with limited finances was something I had asked about before. I am willing to try and I thought we were making progress.... I'm sure everyone doesn't succeed immediately without some setbacks. Y'all mentioned getting him to talk to the Dr, that is my goal now....to convince him to do that.

The only thing that I don't think anyone is understanding is that we really are cut back on finances, there is not "extra money" that can just be found with a few lifestyle changes.

I will no longer ask questions here if I am wasting everyone's time. I am serious about changing and I have already made a lot of changes in myself, but obviously I can't do it on my own. This board has opened my eyes to a lot about what I needed to change, as well as what he needs to and I appreciate that. I can't talk to my family about this, I don't have any friends I can talk to, sometimes I just feel isolated, so I guess this has been my way of venting....
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 06/02/15 03:35 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[I'm sorry you feel like I am asking the same questions. I didn't think asking how you could do a separation with limited finances was something I had asked about before. I am willing to try and I thought we were making progress.... I'm sure everyone doesn't succeed immediately without some setbacks. Y'all mentioned getting him to talk to the Dr, that is my goal now....to convince him to do that.


What I see you doing is dismissing the advice and telling us you can't or won't do it for various reasons instead of looking for solutions. No one is saying it is easy to separate, but it will always be impossible as long as you refuse to do it. The goal of separation is to save your marriage from the current path it is on: divorce.

Quote:
I will no longer ask questions here if I am wasting everyone's time. I am serious about changing and I have already made a lot of changes in myself, but obviously I can't do it on my own. This board has opened my eyes to a lot about what I needed to change, as well as what he needs to and I appreciate that. I can't talk to my family about this, I don't have any friends I can talk to, sometimes I just feel isolated, so I guess this has been my way of venting....


Venting won't solve anything. But looking for solutions WILL.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 06/02/15 03:52 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[I'm sorry you feel like I am asking the same questions. I didn't think asking how you could do a separation with limited finances was something I had asked about before. I am willing to try and I thought we were making progress.... I'm sure everyone doesn't succeed immediately without some setbacks. Y'all mentioned getting him to talk to the Dr, that is my goal now....to convince him to do that.


What I see you doing is dismissing the advice and telling us you can't or won't do it for various reasons instead of looking for solutions. No one is saying it is easy to separate, but it will always be impossible as long as you refuse to do it. The goal of separation is to save your marriage from the current path it is on: divorce.

Quote:
I will no longer ask questions here if I am wasting everyone's time. I am serious about changing and I have already made a lot of changes in myself, but obviously I can't do it on my own. This board has opened my eyes to a lot about what I needed to change, as well as what he needs to and I appreciate that. I can't talk to my family about this, I don't have any friends I can talk to, sometimes I just feel isolated, so I guess this has been my way of venting....


Venting won't solve anything. But looking for solutions WILL.


I agree, that if nothing changes seperation will be my only choice. If we didn't have kids, I would already be to that point. But I am not ready to give up on him possibly making the changes needed.

I agree that I need to be looking for solutions. If he were to get on board with the program 100% I know it could save us, before separation. Now I just need to get him to talk to Dr H and pray he can convince him to participate fully.
Posted By: skd Re: Help Getting Started... - 06/02/15 03:54 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
We already are cutting back on extras. There is NO extra at all. We don't go shopping, don't stop and get coffee each morning, don't have a gym membership. We already lowered our cable and phone bills recently and even moved our kids to a cheaper daycare. Plus if I were to leave he would never cut back on anything, he would say that was my choice....etc.

If you think you are unhappy now, you can't even imagine how much worse it can get with time. As far as finances in the case of a separation, FIND A WAY. Yes you should expect him to pay and go to the full extent of the legal process to make him pay, but make a plan for him not to pay. Get a second job, find someone that can trade babysitting with you, do whatever it takes to FIND A WAY! I have a Masters Degree and a good job that doesn't pay squat so while I've been diligently looking for another job (in and out of the area) that pays more, I've sucked it up and worked a part time job anywhere from 20-40 hours a week. Does it suck? YES Is it better than being with my controlling, manipulating, and cheating H that wasn't willing to follow through with the MB Program...ABSOULTELY!!!!!

There are NO EXCUSES...only answers. Once again I tell you to be strong and...FIND A WAY!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 06/02/15 04:17 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[

I agree, that if nothing changes seperation will be my only choice. If we didn't have kids, I would already be to that point. But I am not ready to give up on him possibly making the changes needed.


We are not asking you to "give up on him" though. You have made that characterization throughout your threads and that is why you are STUCK here in the same place. Your way is the path to divorce. We are trying to help you avoid that.

Quote:
I agree that I need to be looking for solutions. If he were to get on board with the program 100% I know it could save us, before separation. Now I just need to get him to talk to Dr H and pray he can convince him to participate fully.


Separation could very likely save this. Keep that in mind. You have been trying for a very long time to get your husband on board, however part of the reason you can't do that is because *YOU* are not on board.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Help Getting Started... - 06/16/15 08:43 PM
Was that your email on the show today?
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/02/15 01:13 PM
I am back again. Have been wanting / needing help for a while, but couldn't really get on my computer during the summer. Now I am back at school and things are spinning out of control.

I really need help with our situation, not just general help....

I know y'all were to the point of not wanting to help me anymore. But I really need advice.

The Summer was ok for us, not great, but could have been much worse. Then we had to go back to school.... I am at the point where my physical and mental health is really suffering. My heart has been doing really weird things when the stress level gets high with him. My neck and shoulders are killing me constantly, and almost every time we interact I leave with knots in my stomach.

I'm not sure what exactly I need to ask, but I am to the point that I realize separation is almost inevitable. I hate to even admit it, but if we continue down the path we are headed it is the only option. I don't want to get divorced, I just want the stress and chaos to stop.

I need help understand how to handle him in the meantime and how to make a separation work for us specifically. Since we have to little ones, my main concern is them. Although the environment they are living in now is not as healthy as it should be, my oldest would be devastated if we were all apart.

I can't
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/02/15 03:08 PM
Sorry, I wasn't done with that post. Last night I felt like I needed to just get out, now. (With no plan in place). But it seems like it would be better if I had a plan, and in the meantime I could work on my side of things and pray that everything gets better.

What I don't know is how to handle everything in the meantime. It is so bad right now, not only are we fighting pretty much every night, we are fighting at work as well (we are teachers at the same school). We just happened to have the same conference this year, which means we are available to argue with each-other more than we typically would be. I feel like it is nearly impossible to do my job well, although I am trying to forget everything while I am teaching and do a good job for the students, it is nearly impossible.

How should I handle the fact that we work together? How do I handle all the drama and try to keep the peace while I am figuring out what to do?

I know this is getting long, but I have to share some other the situations that have occurred. Maybe y'all can share how I should have / could handle them.

And by the way, at times, we are working hard on things and everything goes great (we actually had a great weekend just this past weekend), but Monday all hell broke loose again.

So, although we had a wonderful weekend, on Monday he came down to my room first thing 2nd period (which is our conference) I honestly thought he was coming to be nice since we had a great weekend. But I guess he was coming because he was feeling insecure, eventually that came out and I tried to reassure him. He told me I should have known and it didn't mean anything if he had to prompt me. There are times I can tell he is beginning to feel that way, and I do try to re-assure him, but how am I suppose to know every-time he is feeling this way, especially when there were no circumstances to warrant it???? Even through this, we were stilling feeling great with each other because of the weekend.

A little later that day he emailed me (while I was teaching my students), I noticed it about 20 minutes later and responded immediately. To be honest, I didn't think much of it and was still feeling happy. A few minutes later (during the passing period) I was standing in the hall and he comes walking up, leans over to whisper in my ear (I thought he was going to say something nice or goofy) but instead he says "if you are not going to reply in a timely fashion do NOT email me". And he just walked away. My heart sunk into my stomach. First off, I didn't email him, I replied to him, and second how in the world does he expect me to do my job but be available to instantly answer his email?? He doesn't do this, in fact he takes hours to respond to me via email. When I got back on my email a bit later I noticed that he had said "sorry to interrupt you" as soon as I had replied. This was not a sincere comment, basically he was implying that I was doing something wrong or I would be answering him.

This scenario led to us completely spinning out of control. Huge fights about everything every since. Now the last couple of days he is back to acting like I can't even take a shower. If I take a shower I must be getting clean for someone. He says that I am not showing him I love him and that it makes his insecurities worse, but how do you show someone you love them that won't even allow you to take a shower, that calls you an idiot and a slut???!!

I have learned a lot from y'all and have done a lot of self reflection. I understand that I was not as sensitive about his feelings as I should have been, even though I did care, I think the pain he was causing me over these feelings is all I could see at the time. Even though I haven't been on the board I have still been learning, just not talking here.

I would love some advice in how to plan for a separation and what to do in the meantime. We have family around that we could potentially stay with, but there is no way we could afford two places. What I have been thinking is that the kids should get to stay put and we could alternate being there. Has anyone heard of doing this? I just want the kids lives to be as normal as possible. But I know he will NOT agree to anything I suggest, and won't it take two of us to make it work? Also, what do I do in the meantime? I would love to think that everything could change before I actually move out, but I know that is wishful thinking.

At what point does his insecurity become more than that? When is it something that I should understand he will always treat me poorly over? Is there a way that he will ever learn to handle these feelings he gets? Thanks again for any help y'all will offer.
Posted By: Elaina7 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/02/15 09:16 PM
First of all, you really are in danger. You are in an abusive marriage.
Have you ever heard of the abuse cycles. Everything is great "your weekend" followed by further abuse. then good, then bad.... and on and on.

You need to seperate now. YOu do NOT ask him. He has nothing to do with it.

You just leave with the kids to your families. I think it is safer with others watching over yall. You have your family trade off the kids if he wants to see them but never give them the kids if he is angry. Tell you family now. Have you told them?

You then give him a letter detailing what it will take for the two of you to reconcile.

1. Anger management with a behavioral therapist.
2. Do not contact you or see you in school hours.

Nothing else on earth can be dealt with until he gets anger under control and stops abusing you. Nothing! It is step on in MB!

I would file for an emergency transfer at work or something to get away from him. You guys can't keep working together. Think, what can you do?

I would not speak to him, see him etc until he agree's to do what it takes and then ACTUALLY does it.

stop fighting....if he starts.... leave! Walk away, do not engage/do not even speak at all.... just leave. if he won't stop, let you walk away, or leave-call the cops. I am serious. CALL the police.
I am an objective outsider and his behavior is dangerous. I think you have been in it so long that you can't see how bad it is.
he is not insecure... he is abusive.

Plan to leave this weekend. As soon as possible. Do not talk to him about it. Do not ask him.... just do it.
Do not think you can keep the kids in the house and trade. Huge steps need to be taken here.

If he goes ballistic, file a restraining order.
If he goes all soft and sweet-don't believe it. Actions counts.... words don't.
Don't give up till he has been in AM for at least 2 weeks and is following your wishes such as no contact.

This will actually give him a chance to step up to the plate, get into AM and hopefully save the marriage. This gives you the best shot. Staying and taking it only makes it worse every single day.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/02/15 11:05 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
I would love some advice in how to plan for a separation and what to do in the meantime. We have family around that we could potentially stay with, but there is no way we could afford two places. What I have been thinking is that the kids should get to stay put and we could alternate being there. Has anyone heard of doing this? I just want the kids lives to be as normal as possible. But I know he will NOT agree to anything I suggest, and won't it take two of us to make it work? Also, what do I do in the meantime? I would love to think that everything could change before I actually move out, but I know that is wishful thinking.


JBK, I agree with Elaina, I would plan to move in with your family with your children and start preparing for a longer term separation. I would also look into getting transferred to another school. Your husband is very abusive and the solution is to get away from him until he makes some radical changes.

What has caused his insecurity? What makes him insecure? Have you ever had an affair? Is there something you are doing or have done that has made him so insecure?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/02/15 11:18 PM
Originally Posted By: Elaina7
he is not insecure... he is abusive.


This part is puzzling to me. He is certainly USING his supposed "insecurity" to abuse her, but I don't understand how this started.
Posted By: Elaina7 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/03/15 06:22 AM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Originally Posted By: mrEureka
[quote=JBKT16]I guess I am wanting to know how to help encourage him to get on board. What to do when he thinks the ideas are crazy?!

I do feel neglected, especially of quality time together, but I think he honestly believes that there just isn't time/ money / etc to be able to spend a lot of time together. I don't believe he is conciously trying to make us suffer. Once we are home together he is exhausted and sometimes I am too.

What is hurting me even more than not spending the time together is the fact that he constantly feels threatened in our marriage and the way he handles it is destroying me. I have never cheated on him, never acted flirtatious, do not have male friends.... All the things that I would think would make someone feel so "unsafe" in a marriage, but no matter what I did and I have tried it all. He always feels like I am eventually going to cheat on him. He has said so many horrible things about me because of these feelings and majority of our problems stem from this.

Any advice??


Here is the beginning... She says she has followed good boundaries....

So? Are you thinking He is having affairs or do you have another idea?

I hope you are ok J..... I know what was said wasn't easy to read- but I hope you let it sink in. I will be praying for you!
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/03/15 11:14 AM
Because of the fact that you both are teachers employed at the same school, i would not separate without first contacting an attorney.
The fact is, you will see him at work every day and if he is a teacher he could just take the kids home with him after school. You need a lawyer to get a court order laying out the rules.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/03/15 01:13 PM
Originally Posted By: Elaina7
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Originally Posted By: mrEureka
[quote=JBKT16]I guess I am wanting to know how to help encourage him to get on board. What to do when he thinks the ideas are crazy?!

I do feel neglected, especially of quality time together, but I think he honestly believes that there just isn't time/ money / etc to be able to spend a lot of time together. I don't believe he is conciously trying to make us suffer. Once we are home together he is exhausted and sometimes I am too.

What is hurting me even more than not spending the time together is the fact that he constantly feels threatened in our marriage and the way he handles it is destroying me. I have never cheated on him, never acted flirtatious, do not have male friends.... All the things that I would think would make someone feel so "unsafe" in a marriage, but no matter what I did and I have tried it all. He always feels like I am eventually going to cheat on him. He has said so many horrible things about me because of these feelings and majority of our problems stem from this.

Any advice??


Here is the beginning... She says she has followed good boundaries....

So? Are you thinking He is having affairs or do you have another idea?

I hope you are ok J..... I know what was said wasn't easy to read- but I hope you let it sink in. I will be praying for you!


You are right I have followed all the boundaries I think can be followed, but nothing works. And to answer the questions, no I have not cheated, honestly I don't really even talk to anyone. I try to be social at work (with women), and he says he wants me to have friends but when he sees me act happy around anyone else, he says I am being "cocky" and that I don't act happy around him.

I can't answer why he feels this way, I really don't know. It started before we were even married but I thought it was because we were living long distance at the time.

I will talk more in a bit. Thank you so much everyone!!!!!
Posted By: apples123 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/03/15 01:36 PM
Can you see a lawyer while he is a practice?
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/03/15 01:36 PM
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5043_qa.html

Here is an a article Dr Harley wrote about controlling husbands you may find helpful:
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/03/15 03:45 PM
So, last night he came home and wanted us to write down and then discuss anything and everything that we thought the other needed to change. He was being very sincere (although I know that does not mean things have changed) and I agreed.

We spent a while each writing down things, and then began to discuss them. He told me he wanted me to be completely honest with him (I typically don't feel very comfortable sharing with him, because everything leads to a fight). So, I was. It was going well and we seemed to be in agreement about most things, until I got to the topic of school and how we are behaving. I told him I feel anxious each day not knowing what he expected from me, how often he was wanting to see me, talk to me, etc. At first he agreed that what we were doing wasn't working, but then he started to feel like I was saying I didn't want to ever have to see him during the day.

I made a point to talk about our conference (we have worked together for a while, but have never had the same conference or even lunch, so this hasn't been an issue before). Typically I work really hard during my conference so that I am not one of the math teachers that takes a bunch of work home. In fact I never take work home. But now that we are seeing each-other during this time, I feel like I don't have any time to relax, or to get work done. He suggested we bring our laptops to each others room and "work together", I guess I was really taken back by this suggestion and didn't handle it well. My reply was "now we have to monitor each other all conference period". This did it for him and all the nice, working on things, went away and he went right back to saying bad things about me. He thinks that I shouldn't complain about not "spending time together" if I don't want to see him during the day. That is not my idea of quality time, and I never said I didn't want to see him at all, just didn't want to commit to being together everyday all conference. And he thinks I am not considering his feelings.

Is this me being inconsiderate????? At this point it is hard to know what is right.

I am talking to Dr. Harvery's wife of the phone at lunch today, and I told him that. I think he was upset that I "went behind his back" but he actually acted like he would be willing to talk to Dr. H.

We were actually calm through it all, he did end up saying something very hateful and I walked out and slept on the couch. But he did not yell at me, I didn't get crazy like I do when he hurts me. So that was good to see.

I have made the mistake of telling him that I am on the brink, that I can not put up with it anymore (maybe thinking he would suddenly have a wake - up call). Then he continued saying "or what" (like then what are you going to do...). Finally I said I would leave. He said, just leave then. Said he wasn't going to have me mandating things, but I honestly felt like I wasn't trying to be honest, not mandate.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/03/15 04:09 PM
Originally Posted By: Elaina7
First of all, you really are in danger. You are in an abusive marriage.
Have you ever heard of the abuse cycles. Everything is great "your weekend" followed by further abuse. then good, then bad.... and on and on.

You need to seperate now. YOu do NOT ask him. He has nothing to do with it.

You just leave with the kids to your families. I think it is safer with others watching over yall. You have your family trade off the kids if he wants to see them but never give them the kids if he is angry. Tell you family now. Have you told them?

You then give him a letter detailing what it will take for the two of you to reconcile.

1. Anger management with a behavioral therapist.
2. Do not contact you or see you in school hours.

Nothing else on earth can be dealt with until he gets anger under control and stops abusing you. Nothing! It is step on in MB!

I would file for an emergency transfer at work or something to get away from him. You guys can't keep working together. Think, what can you do?

I would not speak to him, see him etc until he agree's to do what it takes and then ACTUALLY does it.

stop fighting....if he starts.... leave! Walk away, do not engage/do not even speak at all.... just leave. if he won't stop, let you walk away, or leave-call the cops. I am serious. CALL the police.
I am an objective outsider and his behavior is dangerous. I think you have been in it so long that you can't see how bad it is.
he is not insecure... he is abusive.

Plan to leave this weekend. As soon as possible. Do not talk to him about it. Do not ask him.... just do it.
Do not think you can keep the kids in the house and trade. Huge steps need to be taken here.

If he goes ballistic, file a restraining order.
If he goes all soft and sweet-don't believe it. Actions counts.... words don't.
Don't give up till he has been in AM for at least 2 weeks and is following your wishes such as no contact.

This will actually give him a chance to step up to the plate, get into AM and hopefully save the marriage. This gives you the best shot. Staying and taking it only makes it worse every single day.


Sorry I haven't been able to respond to your post yet. I wanted time to make sure I could really reply without being rushed. Your post struck a cord with me, more than anything I could have expected. I do know that what I am in is abusive. I have been knowing that for a while now. When I came to this site, I guess I found hope that even an abusive relationship could be saved.

The cycle you mentioned is so right on. It is a vicious cycle. We have been having many great times together and I think I feel hopefully, not that he has permanently changed, but that we could / should be happy together, and maybe we could gradually change. But then things go down hill.

I think everything you have said is SO right on. The only thing I disagree a little with is that he is not insecure, he truly is, and I honestly think he doesn't want to feel these ways, but he can't help it. With that being said, I think he is taking that and justifying how he is treating me, and saying that if I made him feel more love, then he would not behave the way he does.

I honestly don't think leaving immediately will work. I understand why you are recommending it, but with our job scenario, the kids, and the finances, I think leaving immediately would cause a huge mess and I need to feel more prepared than that.

Thank you so very much for your heartfelt reply. I can't tell you how much your words got to me last night and woke me up even more than I was.

As for work, there are no transfers or anything of that nature. We are teachers at the town's high school. Now that school has started it would be difficult to change jobs until next August.

Oh, and no my family has no clue anything that I am going through. I'm sure they know things aren't perfect, because we argue a lot and it is sometimes apparent, but they would be shocked. This is one thing I am having such a hard time with. I know how devastated they would be, and it kills me to think of telling them, but I know I need to.

But HIS parents do know. They don't know what all is going on now, but they know a lot of what has happened in the past, and that there are really big issues there. I told them in a moment of desperation at the beginning of last school year, thinking maybe they could help him. Of course he was furious that I did it and it really didn't help besides the fact that I know they know.

I'm sure there is more, but I am going to go ahead and end now. Thanks again.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/03/15 05:34 PM
I talked to Mrs Harley and discussed more about what is going on. She wants him to go on the show and talk to Dr H next week. I let him know that I talked to her, and I am hoping he agrees.
Posted By: Elaina7 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/03/15 08:32 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
I talked to Mrs Harley and discussed more about what is going on. She wants him to go on the show and talk to Dr H next week. I let him know that I talked to her, and I am hoping he agrees.


Good, I am glad that you at least will be able to talk to the Dr.

I was in your shoes once.... Its why it resonates. My ex use to accuse me of the same things but eventually started beating me if I did not give him the "appropriate amount of attention" (in his eyes of course). *In reality, it could be me simply not answering the phone or glancing away while he was speaking to check on our son.*

I have been in support groups for abused women & let me me tell you- telling your family is one of the biggest breakthroughs. I think of it like exposing an affair. Its meant to help hold the abuser accountable and give support to the victim. (It wont necessarily change things but it does help)

And if your H is or isn't insecure- it is His job to take care of issues like this and protect you. Protect you from the worse of himself. Don't beat yourself up about the conversation, but Dr H would tell you what he told me- don't bother having lots or any relationship talk. Until he can promise to keep you safe and protect you- there is no point. Nothing will actually be resolved.

I wouldn't mention leaving etc anymore. That is something you just do- not something to speak about.

But good job on sleeping on the couch because of his anger- keep leaving- get away- do not respond.

I understand about the finances. I would start looking into that as soon as possible. Your family might have some ideas for you.


Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/03/15 10:26 PM
Thanks again. I'm not sure that talking to her helped. I told him i did and he is acting like i betrayed him. He asked me to share the email i sent and after he read it he said "we're done" and wouldn't talk to me. I honestly think he is just upset that i have a place to turn, and afraid they might tell me to leave.

Although he was really upset, he was very calm, to be honest i am a little worried about what will happen when he gets past this calm "I am done" calm attitude. I hate that it is about to be a long weekend and instead of spending time with family and doing things we ought to be doing, we are going into it like this.

I know i need to tell my family, honestly i am temted to go talk to his now. I am just so embarrassed, discouraged, and know how bad it will hurt them.

I really don't know what is best. What i should do....
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/03/15 10:29 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16

I really don't know what is best. What i should do....


Just keep doing what you are doing and stop reacting to his bully tactics. You have done nothing wrong. If you will stop reacting to his scare tactics, he will be forced to stop using them.

So, if he is "done" does this mean he will be moving out? Can you help him pack? I would ask him about his plan.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/03/15 10:34 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Thanks again. I'm not sure that talking to her helped. ..


Also, talking to her helped very much, but you need to discuss the situation with Dr. Harley. I would write him TONIGHT and tell him what your husband is trying to pull. Send your phone # and perhaps he will call you.

i would go speak to your family tonight and let them know how abusive your husband has been. Ask them if you could stay with them. Would they take you and the kids in for the weekend? What about for a longer period of time?
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/03/15 10:41 PM
I'm sure he has no intention in actually leaving me. I'm sure he means i'm done worrying about us, and done trying to change anything.

I feel really worried about how the weekend will go.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/03/15 10:50 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
I'm sure he has no intention in actually leaving me. I'm sure he means i'm done worrying about us, and done trying to change anything.

I feel really worried about how the weekend will go.


What are you worried about?
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/03/15 10:57 PM
I guess i feel worried that it could escalate into getting physical. He hasn't before but it just seems like things are getting worse and worse. Sometimes i worry he would try to run off with the kids. He threatens to take them from me when he thinks i'm considering leaving, which i know a judge wouldn't agree to.

Yes, i have family that we could stay with. I am just afraid of what is to follow if i do that. He has always been hateful about my family and i'm afraid he would come over there and make a huge blow up with them.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/03/15 10:59 PM
Also, if i went somewhere today, what would follow at school tomorrow? That's the hardest part of all.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/03/15 11:00 PM
Also, if i went somewhere today, what would follow at school tomorrow? That's the hardest part of all.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/03/15 11:11 PM
Do i email him at the same address i spoke with her?

Also, is it right to let his family know, or only mine? I know i need to tell mine as well...
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/03/15 11:14 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
I guess i feel worried that it could escalate into getting physical. He hasn't before but it just seems like things are getting worse and worse. Sometimes i worry he would try to run off with the kids. He threatens to take them from me when he thinks i'm considering leaving, which i know a judge wouldn't agree to.

Yes, i have family that we could stay with. I am just afraid of what is to follow if i do that. He has always been hateful about my family and i'm afraid he would come over there and make a huge blow up with them.



I would call them and make plans to spend the weekend with them. You really can't afford all this "fear" anymore and need to start taking the initiative here. Make a decision today to stop being a perpetual victim. You are a grown up now.
Posted By: buildsherhouse Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/03/15 11:14 PM
I am very interested in what Dr Harley tells you. I hope you will share here. Keep reaching out for help. Also, it is not against marriage builders principles to hold some information privately in the process of getting advice when you are dealing with an abusive spouse. Be strategic with what you say until you have a plan confirmed.


As for what made the husband insecure, I have been told that some personalities are that way. Extremely jealous. What you said about family and everything fits into that. I can say for sure that sometimes there is no reason for a man to feel that way. They just do.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/03/15 11:15 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Do i email him at the same address i spoke with her?

Also, is it right to let his family know, or only mine? I know i need to tell mine as well...


You can email Dr Harley at the same email address. Tell Joyce what has transpired and ask her if she and Dr Harley could give you a call.

Let your family and his family know what is happening.
Posted By: Elaina7 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/03/15 11:17 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Also, if i went somewhere today, what would follow at school tomorrow? That's the hardest part of all.


Call your parents.... Tonight & come up with a game plan....

Pack & leave after school with your kids tomorrow night for the weekend.

Let the cards fall.

If he shows up & goes nuts- good- call the police & file a restraining order. It would be the best thing for him.

All abusive men say "im done" "leave" etc. it is just meant to scare you he doesnt want you telling others about your issues- this means you should!!!!!

If he starts Anything- call the police! Seriously- and get away from him.

Right now, call your folks & plan on going there for the weekend.
Heck- can your mom or dad come over tonight & just stay the night with you?

If he tries something at school.....go immediately to the office & Call the police!

If its just nonsense- dont talk to him, leave the room etc.

"You are scaring and bothering me- please leave me alone." Its your mantra.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/03/15 11:17 PM
Originally Posted By: buildsherhouse
I am very interested in what Dr Harley tells you. I hope you will share here. Keep reaching out for help. Also, it is not against marriage builders principles to hold some information privately in the process of getting advice. Be strategic with what you say until you have a plan confirmed.


Exactly. The policy of radical honesty and the policy of joint agreement DO NOT APPLY when there is abuse.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/03/15 11:20 PM
JBK, your fear has emboldened him for a very long time. You can make a decision today to stop doing this.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/03/15 11:21 PM
I know you are right, what about the kids, what do i do when he says "you can't have the kids"...
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/03/15 11:24 PM
Also, what about stuff? I feel like he might destroy all my clothes or do something crazy like that if i just left. This is so hard not knowing specifically what is going to happen.
Posted By: Elaina7 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/03/15 11:31 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Also, what about stuff? I feel like he might destroy all my clothes or do something crazy like that if i just left. This is so hard not knowing specifically what is going to happen.


Well, your life is worth more than stuff....

Take anything that is important- kids documents, birth certificates etc.... But some things are just gonna have to stay & risk it.

If you go talk to your family- they can help you with this.

If he physically tries to stop you from leaving "with the kids" - you call the police!!!! Tell them your going to your parents for the weekend & your husband is scarring you.

Your parents should come & be with you as you do this- don't do this alone!
Posted By: Elaina7 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/03/15 11:34 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
I know you are right, what about the kids, what do i do when he says "you can't have the kids"...


Without a court order- you or him could leave with the kids....
But the court would intervene if they needed.

He can not stop you from taking them.... And if your family is there- I don't believe he will try to stop you.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/03/15 11:51 PM
Yes, i will definitely share.

Joyce said "it sounds like a lifetime movie". Which i agree with but coming from someone who deals with marriage issues everyday, that says a lot!

I am worried about asking him to call because he will be back home before too long. I am elailing him now.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/03/15 11:58 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16

I am worried about asking him to call because he will be back home before too long. I am elailing him now.





Don't worry! You are a grown woman who is perfectly free to talk on the phone.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/04/15 12:18 AM
I have never been "free" to do much of anything. But i understand, just didn't think he should hear, and make things get worse before tomorrow
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/04/15 12:20 AM
Originally Posted By: Elaina7
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
I know you are right, what about the kids, what do i do when he says "you can't have the kids"...


Without a court order- you or him could leave with the kids....
But the court would intervene if they needed.

He can not stop you from taking them.... And if your family is there- I don't believe he will try to stop you.


I feel pretty sure he would try to stop me. Would it not be better to leave while he isn't there?
Posted By: Elaina7 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/04/15 12:50 AM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Originally Posted By: Elaina7
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
I know you are right, what about the kids, what do i do when he says "you can't have the kids"...


Without a court order- you or him could leave with the kids....
But the court would intervene if they needed.

He can not stop you from taking them.... And if your family is there- I don't believe he will try to stop you.


I feel pretty sure he would try to stop me. Would it not be better to leave while he isn't there?


if you can...sure!
Do you have time tomorrow when he will be gone?

Have you called your parents? His? Go do this while you can....
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/04/15 02:29 AM
I was talking to his sister when he got home, so i cut the conversation short. But she knows everything and is very understanding of where i am coming from. She knows a lot of our history anyway, but she was shocked that we were still having problems. Have not talked to mine yet. Am hoping i can go see them tomorrow after school. I'm not feeling too worried about us blowing up, we are just not talking at all. He may have really meant it when he said he was done.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/04/15 03:07 AM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
He may have really meant it when he said he was done.



You should agree with him. Tell him your first preference is to save the marriage, but if he won't address and resolve the things that are making you so unhappy with him, that you would agree that "we are done."

Saying this will neutralize his threat. Just AGREE with him.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/04/15 03:03 PM
I just saw this response this morning, but I did agree with him. I didn't talk to him at all and he didn't talk to me. He went to bed and I just staying on the couch.

I knew the silence (on his part) would end in a blow up and it did. After I got dressed this morning, he glared at me with a dirty look, then started talking about the way I was dressed (I guess he thought I looked cute and didn't like it). I continued to stay calm (which is a good step for me, because I have not been able to in the past). Then he caught me in the kitchen and started yelling in my face, to the point where I continued to pack up to where he basically had me corned. He never actually pushed me, but he backed me in to a corner (literally).

Then, when I was able to remove myself from that situation, he followed me out to the car and ended up throwing the burger he was making at me. Obviously he wasn't going to hurt me with a burger, but it was so insulting. Luckily the kids didn't see any of it. They did hear him raise his voice and the oldest was upset, but they didn't see anything that happened.

I drove off and did not engage him when we left for work. He tried to pick a fight with me, but I just left for work.

Fast forward to us getting to school. He comes up and asked "so what are you going to do" "are you going to be there when I get home tonight?" At this point he was being sincere and I think he was really realizing what he had done, and that I was really thinking of leaving (although I did NOT mention that to him anymore - he probably just could tell by the way I was handling myself). I got a text a little later that said "I'm sorry you have fallen out of love with me, I never thought that would happen." I told him that I did still love him, but that I some point I had to look out for my well being.

We ended up talking a bit in person after that. Everything was very calm and he was very receptive to listening (I do understand that he was only this way because he realized how bad it was - that nothing is changed for the future yet).

I just explained to him that I could not continue to take the abuse and that I had tried to stick through it for this long, and that I didn't have the energy anymore. Surprisingly, he seemed to really understand, or at least to listen without getting mad at me. He proceeded to tell me that he was in the process of emailing Dr Harley and that if going on the show and trying their methods would help that he was willing to do it. (All this after he was furious with me for contacting them in the first place.)

So now I am at a what to do now point? I really want him to speak with them, I have been wanting him to do that for a year now.

Here are the options I feel like I am considering:

Option #1: Packing up a bit and going to my families today while he is gone, and telling him that we need some space to work things out. And that if he will seek help and change things that I would be glad to try again with him AFTER he has shown me things can stay different.
Pros: Not have to deal with anymore "incidents"/ Get rid
of the stress of the unknown
Cons: No plan for finances / no time to figure out the
logistics / feel very unorganized about trying to
make it all happen in a couple hours (tell family,
pack, etc)
Option 2: Wait to see if he follows through with Dr Harley,
and begin to put things in place in the meantime (go
ahead and confide in my mom, work on solutions for
the finances / write a letter explaining my position
and what I would like him to work on while
separated) With the idea that one outburst would
result in me immediately leaving no matter when or
what.
What do y'all think? What gives us the best chance????
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/04/15 03:25 PM
Don't wait for him to contact Dr. Harley. Proceed with your plan, pack up and leave today. If your husband is serious about changing, this will keep him motivated to change.

You've waited far too long for him to change as it is. Let him prove that things are going to be different.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/04/15 03:34 PM
He threw something at you today.That is assault. His fists WILL fly soon.

You need to get out. Call the local women's shelter for advice, pack a bag and don't go back to the house. If you have to leave work to get it done, do it.

He is going to beat You if you don't get away.
Posted By: KPT Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/04/15 04:00 PM
Option 1.

I've been the source of angry outbursts in the past out of sheer frustration but I never, ever imagined laying a hand or anything else on my wife and never ever came close.

What he did, that's a whole different deal and on another level that could lead to something else. Please don't try to rationalize it.
Posted By: buildsherhouse Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/04/15 04:01 PM
Option 1 , definitely.
Posted By: markos Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/04/15 04:25 PM
Originally Posted By: KPT
Option 1.

I've been the source of angry outbursts in the past out of sheer frustration


Dr. Harley's position is that angry outbursts are not to be tolerated in marriage.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/04/15 07:46 PM
Ok, so now I feel pretty confused. Dr. Harley responded to my email this morning, and he advised that we separate and mentioned the fact that he could have had an injury or something that is causing his paranoid thinking.

But, the reason I am confused, is because he recommended me to plan a separation, not on a whim. I can't remember the exact words he used (I deleted it because it was on school email) but that was basically the point he made.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/04/15 07:49 PM
How should I be handling our interactions right now? I am not engaging in confrontation with him at all, and we have both remained calm. He wanted me to hug him before he left school earlier and I honestly didn't want to. I told him I wasn't ready for that after what had happened this morning. So now he feels like I don't care about him because I knew he needed my touch and I didn't do it. Am I wrong for this? Although he has hurt me very much, I don't want to intentionally hurt him (I know too much what that feels like).

Thanks again everyone!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/04/15 08:46 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Ok, so now I feel pretty confused. Dr. Harley responded to my email this morning, and he advised that we separate and mentioned the fact that he could have had an injury or something that is causing his paranoid thinking.

But, the reason I am confused, is because he recommended me to plan a separation, not on a whim. I can't remember the exact words he used (I deleted it because it was on school email) but that was basically the point he made.


Yes you should separate. I don't understand what you mean by "whim." Just separate. Will your parents allow you to live there until you can find another place to live?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/04/15 08:51 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
So now he feels like I don't care about him because I knew he needed my touch and I didn't do it. Am I wrong for this? .


PACK UP YOUR CLOTHES AND GO TO YOUR PARENTS. Tell your boys that they are going to spend some time at the grandparents because you are afraid of their dad. Let them know that have been fights and you will be staying at grandparents for a while with them.

We don't give a rip what your husband needs. He has made it impossible for you to be around him. IF he wants some "touch" he will have to make a radical change in his behavior..
Posted By: DidntQuit Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/04/15 08:58 PM
I would suggest that you email Dr. H. from your personal email and ask him to resend his email response since you had to delete it. It's very important to refer to that email for clarity and reassurance.







Posted By: Elaina7 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/04/15 09:40 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Ok, so now I feel pretty confused. Dr. Harley responded to my email this morning, and he advised that we separate and mentioned the fact that he could have had an injury or something that is causing his paranoid thinking.

But, the reason I am confused, is because he recommended me to plan a separation, not on a whim. I can't remember the exact words he used (I deleted it because it was on school email) but that was basically the point he made.


He just doesn't have all the facts. He doesn't know things are getting so bad, he is assaulting you just this morning (and be thankful it was a burger-he was so enranged and entitled that whatever was in his hand he would have thrown at you)

He would tell you to flee right away. You also need to tell your boys that daddy has been so angry at mom it is scaring her so we are going to spend some time with your grandparents.

He only says take some time if you have time to take.... YOU DONT!
Posted By: Elaina7 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/04/15 09:49 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
How should I be handling our interactions right now? I am not engaging in confrontation with him at all, and we have both remained calm. He wanted me to hug him before he left school earlier and I honestly didn't want to. I told him I wasn't ready for that after what had happened this morning. So now he feels like I don't care about him because I knew he needed my touch and I didn't do it. Am I wrong for this? Although he has hurt me very much, I don't want to intentionally hurt him (I know too much what that feels like).

Thanks again everyone!


BTW... we had a male poster who once threw his keys at his wife and the cops came and threw him in jail for a day..... again, men do not back women into corner or throw things at them.... it is a sign of temporary insanity "angry outbursts".

Honey, it is up to HIM to create an environment of care where you CAN meet his needs.
Again, what entitlement!!! DO you see what you wrote? He "needed" you touch?

You need him to act safe around you!
Did he think he placated you enough by his sweet talking for a while?

Melody is right- he has made it Impossible for you to want to hug him or meet his needs!
If you wanted to hug him and be all close after all of this, something would be very very off!! What person after abuse would want to go hold tenderly the abuser?

So where are you at? Have you talked to your parents? Can they come help take you away tonight?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/04/15 09:50 PM
JBK, you don't need to squander time sending Dr Harley a question he already answered. Just pack your clothes and separate. Call your folks and ask if you can move in for awhile.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/04/15 11:28 PM
Do what they are telling you to do and go to your parents.
Call the Principal and taKe Tuesday and Wed off to see an attorney.
Do you have a separate bank account?
Posted By: apples123 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/05/15 02:02 AM
Are you okay?
Posted By: Woundednotbroken Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/05/15 05:17 PM
Worrying about you. Hoping you're doing ok and just off to your parents for the weekend.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/09/15 04:06 PM
Yes, I am ok. Thanks for asking everyone. What happened over the weekend was not at all what I had expected....

On Friday I had decided to leave for sure. I was not questioning myself at all anymore, what had happened Friday morning was enough to push me past my limit.

It was teacher appreciation night and I had promised one of the players that I would come up for that. I didn't want to break that, so I decided to go up to the game (my husband was in the press box coaching) just to make an appearance and be recognized for the teacher appreciation thing. Then I would head home and get some things together, write him a letter and go to my parents house. (He doesn't get home until after 12pm on those nights, so there was plenty of time.)

Before the game he saw me and came down to talk to me, and eventually ended up saying I must be "with the kid" in an inappropriate way since he wanted to recognize me at teacher appreciation.

I basically told him to leave me alone, I was so upset and he was making it clear in front of everyone that things were not ok between us.

I guess he was thinking about what he had done / said because at some point he started texting me from the press box. I can't remember what all was said, but I was trying to keep the conversation very short. At some point he started asking what my intentions were and saying that I was acting different. (I think mainly because I was keeping my cool and wasn't engaging in the argument like I normally would). He started asking if I was wanting to get divorced and I kept telling him no, that divorce was not at all what I wanted, that I just wanted to be done with all the negativity and all the stress.

He finally started to ask if I was wanting to leave, I tried to avoid the questions, but it wasn't working. Eventually I just said that I did want to separate, but that I didn't want a divorce, that I wanted to work it out with him while being separated.

He got really upset (for once not mad upset, more sincerely upset for what he thought was happening to him/us). He has had a few panic attacks in the past. He began telling me that his heart was racing and that he was having a panic attack.

I felt bad for him, but I still felt like what I was doing was the right thing.

All of the sudden he was down from the press box, in tears, pleading me not to go. Saying he would change anything and everything, that he would set up counseling for himself, and talk with Dr Harvey, that he would spend more time together, never put me down, etc......

At one point, he gave me the impression that he would kill himself if he came home and I wasn't there (he didn't actually say that, but he implied it).

I was feeling really bad, but still felt like I needed to do it. Then I asked him, "so if I stay, what happens the next time you blow-up or do something really hurtful toward me?"
His response was, "you can ask me to leave and I will, no questions asked, at least I will have been given a chance to change." He had never said any of these things he was saying, not even after bad fights. I knew he meant everything he was saying, but I didn't know if he would be able to follow through like he hoped he could.

So I stayed. I didn't know what to do.

He was doing everything he said, being overly nice, took me on a date, spent time with the family, talked to a friend about a recommendation for anger management, he was supportive on these he typically isn't, etc.

He said he had "been awakened" and didn't want to lose me. We ended up getting into an argument last night over something stupid but there were no low blows or throwing things or anything like that.

I don't know what to think. Could just the real threat of me leaving be enough?
Posted By: DidntQuit Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/09/15 04:18 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16


I don't know what to think. Could just the real threat of me leaving be enough?



I would get him on the phone with Dr. Harley immediately and let Dr. Harley decide. He already has some suspicions about the cause of your husband's lack of control, but if he can talk with him, then he will be able to see how serious your husband is about getting help to control his anger.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/09/15 04:35 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16

His response was, "you can ask me to leave and I will, no questions asked, at least I will have been given a chance to change." He had never said any of these things he was saying, not even after bad fights. I knew he meant everything he was saying, but I didn't know if he would be able to follow through like he hoped he could.


This is a pretty typical with an abusive, controlling husband. They will make all manner of promises to keep you there and then follow through on nothing. I would immediately get him set up with Dr Harley and insist he enter an anger management program. [see Dr Harley's suggestions about anger management]
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/09/15 04:36 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
At one point, he gave me the impression that he would kill himself if he came home and I wasn't there (he didn't actually say that, but he implied it).


The next time he plays the suicide card, you need to call 911. You should NEVER allow yourself to be manipulated by suicide threats.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/09/15 04:48 PM
Quote:
I tried to avoid the questions, but it wasn't working.

You could have turned the phone off.

Quote:
He was doing everything he said, being overly nice, took me on a date, spent time with the family, talked to a friend about a recommendation for anger management, he was supportive on these he typically isn't, etc.

He said he had "been awakened" and didn't want to lose me. We ended up getting into an argument last night over something stupid but there were no low blows or throwing things or anything like that.

I don't know what to think. Could just the real threat of me leaving be enough?

He actually hasn't done anything yet. "Talked to a friend about a recommendation for anger management" doesn't mean he has done anything. ANYBODY could do that.

Angry men tend to also be very sorry and apologetic. I can't tell you how many times I heard "I'm sorry." Don't let your guard down just because he's thrown you a few crumbs.

You need to see him following an actual plan.
Posted By: markos Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/09/15 04:53 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
At one point, he gave me the impression that he would kill himself if he came home and I wasn't there (he didn't actually say that, but he implied it).


The next time he plays the suicide card, you need to call 911. You should NEVER allow yourself to be manipulated by suicide threats.


Nor should a suicidal person go untreated.

911 is ALWAYS, ALWAYS the right response to a suicide threat. If the person is bluffing they will stop doing it when 911 gets called every time and the cops show up every time. If they are not bluffing they NEED HELP.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/09/15 06:04 PM
Originally Posted By: markos
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
At one point, he gave me the impression that he would kill himself if he came home and I wasn't there (he didn't actually say that, but he implied it).


The next time he plays the suicide card, you need to call 911. You should NEVER allow yourself to be manipulated by suicide threats.


Nor should a suicidal person go untreated.

911 is ALWAYS, ALWAYS the right response to a suicide threat. If the person is bluffing they will stop doing it when 911 gets called every time and the cops show up every time. If they are not bluffing they NEED HELP.


What if the threat is not an immediate threat "I'm going to kill myself", more like a long standing threat "if you ever leave I am going to kill myself" how do you handle that?

Even that night for example, if I would have left, he wasn't even going to be home for a few hours, so the threat would have only been much later that night, if I wouldn't have been there when he came home.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/09/15 06:24 PM
Quote:
What if the threat is not an immediate threat "I'm going to kill myself", more like a long standing threat "if you ever leave I am going to kill myself" how do you handle that?

Even that night for example, if I would have left, he wasn't even going to be home for a few hours, so the threat would have only been much later that night, if I wouldn't have been there when he came home.

I would call the authorities anyway.
"My husband told me that he is going to kill himself later tonight when he gets home."

Let them deal with him. If he's serious, he'll get the help he needs. If he's trying to manipulate you, he'll never make that threat again.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/09/15 06:34 PM
Originally Posted By: Prisca
Quote:
I tried to avoid the questions, but it wasn't working.

You could have turned the phone off.

Quote:
He was doing everything he said, being overly nice, took me on a date, spent time with the family, talked to a friend about a recommendation for anger management, he was supportive on these he typically isn't, etc.

He said he had "been awakened" and didn't want to lose me. We ended up getting into an argument last night over something stupid but there were no low blows or throwing things or anything like that.

I don't know what to think. Could just the real threat of me leaving be enough?

He actually hasn't done anything yet. "Talked to a friend about a recommendation for anger management" doesn't mean he has done anything. ANYBODY could do that.

Angry men tend to also be very sorry and apologetic. I can't tell you how many times I heard "I'm sorry." Don't let your guard down just because he's thrown you a few crumbs.

You need to see him following an actual plan.




You're right I guess he hasn't "done" anything yet in the sense you are referring to. But him telling his friend that he has a problem (something I never thought he would do) and asking for a recommendation (he is a psychologist as well) is doing more than he would have ever done in the past. Also, he just text me and told me that he had emailed Dr Harley and is hopefully setting up a time to be on the show.

I know they are baby steps but I do believe he is serious. I am having a hard time not being really distant though. I know he means well but all the pain of the past is still there.

If he does follow through and if changes are made, how to I get back to feeling the love that I once felt? I do still love him, but it is not the same after so much pain.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/09/15 06:42 PM
Quote:
You're right I guess he hasn't "done" anything yet in the sense you are referring to. But him telling his friend that he has a problem (something I never thought he would do) and asking for a recommendation (he is a psychologist as well) is doing more than he would have ever done in the past. Also, he just text me and told me that he had emailed Dr Harley and is hopefully setting up a time to be on the show.

My husband spent years telling people he had a problem and seeking recommendations before he actually DID anything about the problem.

He's got a long road ahead of him. If he's serious, he'll fix it. But don't expect it to be a quick fix.

Quote:
I know they are baby steps but I do believe he is serious. I am having a hard time not being really distant though. I know he means well but all the pain of the past is still there.

Your emotions are trying to protect you. Listen to them.

Quote:
If he does follow through and if changes are made, how to I get back to feeling the love that I once felt? I do still love him, but it is not the same after so much pain.

If he's serious, and does what it takes, then you will fall back in love with him. And you will be more in love with him than you were before. It's going to be up to him to create those feelings in you.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/09/15 06:48 PM
Originally Posted By: Prisca
Quote:
You're right I guess he hasn't "done" anything yet in the sense you are referring to. But him telling his friend that he has a problem (something I never thought he would do) and asking for a recommendation (he is a psychologist as well) is doing more than he would have ever done in the past. Also, he just text me and told me that he had emailed Dr Harley and is hopefully setting up a time to be on the show.

My husband spent years telling people he had a problem and seeking recommendations before he actually DID anything about the problem.

He's got a long road ahead of him. If he's serious, he'll fix it. But don't expect it to be a quick fix.

Quote:
I know they are baby steps but I do believe he is serious. I am having a hard time not being really distant though. I know he means well but all the pain of the past is still there.

Your emotions are trying to protect you. Listen to them.

Quote:
If he does follow through and if changes are made, how to I get back to feeling the love that I once felt? I do still love him, but it is not the same after so much pain.

If he's serious, and does what it takes, then you will fall back in love with him. And you will be more in love with him than you were before. It's going to be up to him to create those feelings in you.


Thanks for this. This is exactly how I feel, but when he was being so sweet and really trying. He was wanting me to show him that I felt really close to him the same way he did, and didn't seem to understand why I wasn't "getting better" since he was being so kind.
Posted By: Elaina7 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/09/15 08:33 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Originally Posted By: Prisca
Quote:
You're right I guess he hasn't "done" anything yet in the sense you are referring to. But him telling his friend that he has a problem (something I never thought he would do) and asking for a recommendation (he is a psychologist as well) is doing more than he would have ever done in the past. Also, he just text me and told me that he had emailed Dr Harley and is hopefully setting up a time to be on the show.

My husband spent years telling people he had a problem and seeking recommendations before he actually DID anything about the problem.

He's got a long road ahead of him. If he's serious, he'll fix it. But don't expect it to be a quick fix.

Quote:
I know they are baby steps but I do believe he is serious. I am having a hard time not being really distant though. I know he means well but all the pain of the past is still there.

Your emotions are trying to protect you. Listen to them.

Quote:
If he does follow through and if changes are made, how to I get back to feeling the love that I once felt? I do still love him, but it is not the same after so much pain.

If he's serious, and does what it takes, then you will fall back in love with him. And you will be more in love with him than you were before. It's going to be up to him to create those feelings in you.


Thanks for this. This is exactly how I feel, but when he was being so sweet and really trying. He was wanting me to show him that I felt really close to him the same way he did, and didn't seem to understand why I wasn't "getting better" since he was being so kind.


Oh man, this made me sick to my stomach.....

My ex demanded me act all loving immediately after beating me, but since he apologized, all should be well once certain words are spoken.
Sorry, thats my own story & your H should not be putting ANY pressure on you to act close & don't do it! Policy of radical honesty... Be honest with your reaction & feelings without LB him. It bothers me to be close, to kiss, to fill in the blank. Remember "it bothers me"
If he starts to act hurt & punish you- thats an AO- separate!

What is your plan when DR H says the VERY next time he is angry to separate & he is only a "little" angry?
You need to be prepared to leave. At any moment.

*have you told your parents???? *
Why did you try to leave alone?

Next time- do NOT see him before you leave, that was a mistake.
Do not leave alone so you have support & wont end up "I didn't know what to do" again.
This is why I told you to have them come help.
Your H could still be doing all this work to prove himself while you & the kids are safe.
In reality, Dr H told me separation should not stop the serious guy from doing what it takes but it weeds out the unserious Really fast.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/09/15 08:58 PM
Quote:
Your H could still be doing all this work to prove himself while you & the kids are safe.
In reality, Dr H told me separation should not stop the serious guy from doing what it takes but it weeds out the unserious Really fast.

QFT

A good man will do what it takes to win his way home. If he doesn't, he wasn't worth keeping.
Posted By: markos Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/09/15 08:58 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Thanks for this. This is exactly how I feel, but when he was being so sweet and really trying. He was wanting me to show him that I felt really close to him the same way he did, and didn't seem to understand why I wasn't "getting better" since he was being so kind.


That's just an abuse and control tactic.

Nobody would go to their bank with a $10,000 debt in the hole and late, make a $100 payment, and expect the bank to restore normal relations.
Posted By: markos Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/09/15 09:02 PM
Originally Posted By: Elaina7
You need to be prepared to leave. At any moment.


Keep your finger on the trigger! Have a plan prepared and be ready to execute it at any time.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/10/15 12:46 PM
Originally Posted By: markos
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Thanks for this. This is exactly how I feel, but when he was being so sweet and really trying. He was wanting me to show him that I felt really close to him the same way he did, and didn't seem to understand why I wasn't "getting better" since he was being so kind.


That's just an abuse and control tactic.

Nobody would go to their bank with a $10,000 debt in the hole and late, make a $100 payment, and expect the bank to restore normal relations.


Thanks for this! It is so accurate to how I am feeling.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/10/15 12:51 PM
Originally Posted By: Elaina7
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Originally Posted By: Prisca
Quote:
You're right I guess he hasn't "done" anything yet in the sense you are referring to. But him telling his friend that he has a problem (something I never thought he would do) and asking for a recommendation (he is a psychologist as well) is doing more than he would have ever done in the past. Also, he just text me and told me that he had emailed Dr Harley and is hopefully setting up a time to be on the show.

My husband spent years telling people he had a problem and seeking recommendations before he actually DID anything about the problem.

He's got a long road ahead of him. If he's serious, he'll fix it. But don't expect it to be a quick fix.

Quote:
I know they are baby steps but I do believe he is serious. I am having a hard time not being really distant though. I know he means well but all the pain of the past is still there.

Your emotions are trying to protect you. Listen to them.

Quote:
If he does follow through and if changes are made, how to I get back to feeling the love that I once felt? I do still love him, but it is not the same after so much pain.

If he's serious, and does what it takes, then you will fall back in love with him. And you will be more in love with him than you were before. It's going to be up to him to create those feelings in you.


Thanks for this. This is exactly how I feel, but when he was being so sweet and really trying. He was wanting me to show him that I felt really close to him the same way he did, and didn't seem to understand why I wasn't "getting better" since he was being so kind.


Oh man, this made me sick to my stomach.....

My ex demanded me act all loving immediately after beating me, but since he apologized, all should be well once certain words are spoken.
Sorry, thats my own story & your H should not be putting ANY pressure on you to act close & don't do it! Policy of radical honesty... Be honest with your reaction & feelings without LB him. It bothers me to be close, to kiss, to fill in the blank. Remember "it bothers me"
If he starts to act hurt & punish you- thats an AO- separate!

What is your plan when DR H says the VERY next time he is angry to separate & he is only a "little" angry?
You need to be prepared to leave. At any moment.

*have you told your parents???? *
Why did you try to leave alone?

Next time- do NOT see him before you leave, that was a mistake.
Do not leave alone so you have support & wont end up "I didn't know what to do" again.
This is why I told you to have them come help.
Your H could still be doing all this work to prove himself while you & the kids are safe.
In reality, Dr H told me separation should not stop the serious guy from doing what it takes but it weeds out the unserious Really fast.





To be honest, I had no intention of seeing him. Yes we were going to be at the football stadium at the same time, but he has never once in ten years came down from the press-box to talk to me, no matter what. If I would have known he was going to do this; I probably would have had a different plan. I only went there to do my job for teacher appreciation night.

Before going to the game I was in a big rush with the kids. I wanted to get up there, make my appearance, and then I was going to call my mom on the way back to the house to pack a couple bags and go. Since he gets home really late on those nights, I thought there would be plenty of time.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/10/15 12:55 PM
I think he really feels like me not being loving and affectionate is a love buster for him. And how can I expect him to stop his negative actions if I won't fix what I am doing wrong. (in his mind) I have tried to explain that there are layers of hurt that he is going to have to peel away for me to feel that loving again, and he gets upset and ask how long is it going to take.

I have been much better about walking away, not yelling, calling names, etc. I did end up calling him a jerk the other day, but one name throughout many arguments is an improvement for me.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/10/15 01:13 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
I think he really feels like me not being loving and affectionate is a love buster for him.


Not meeting his needs because he is abusive is not a love buster. That is a creepy manipulation of the concepts. Making selfish demands on you is a love buster. He should never expect you to make sacrifices or meet his needs in a way that makes you sick. If he wants you to be affectionate and loving, then he needs to create an environment that makes that possible. Being controlling and abusive will never lead to a loving, affectionate marriage. It will lead to separation.

Quote:
And how can I expect him to stop his negative actions if I won't fix what I am doing wrong. (in his mind)


What you should do is move out if he doesn't stop. Like the others have said, you should make plans to move out if he doesn't stop.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/10/15 01:24 PM
Quote:
I have tried to explain that there are layers of hurt that he is going to have to peel away for me to feel that loving again, and he gets upset and ask how long is it going to take.

He can talk this over with Dr. Harley, not you. Stop engaging in these conversations. It's just another way for him to control you.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/10/15 02:06 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
And how can I expect him to stop his negative actions if I won't fix what I am doing wrong. (in his mind)


I worked for several years counseling victims of domestic abuse. I know your H has not to date been physically abusive, but he displays SO MANY behaviors that I have seen a million times in these unstable relationships. His pattern of abuse you - you get upset - he says he is sorry and begs you to stay...his loving nature after abuse (which seem to make you feel loved and cherished, without realizing just how skewed of thinking this is)...his threats of suicide, etc. if you leave...

The comment I quoted above is just another example. The mentality that his abuse is caused by you not behaving appropriately, it is a standard in every abuse situation I have worked with. Somehow, his behavior is your fault, and if you just did the right thing, behaved how he wanted, then he would not be forced to abuse you.

I really want you to see the seriousness of this. You are a stone's throw away from a trip to the ER or worse.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/10/15 05:11 PM
Originally Posted By: unwritten
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
And how can I expect him to stop his negative actions if I won't fix what I am doing wrong. (in his mind)


Somehow, his behavior is your fault, and if you just did the right thing, behaved how he wanted, then he would not be forced to abuse you.

I really want you to see the seriousness of this. You are a stone's throw away from a trip to the ER or worse.


Thank you. I guess the fact that he stops short of hitting me, makes it much harder to leave. There have been times I actually wished he would hurt me, just so I could justify leaving. I know that sounds horrible, but I have really felt that way, like it would be easier to get through physical abuse than emotional hell.

The behavior being "my fault" statement that you wrote above is exactly how he feels. He does not think it is abusive though, I think he truly believe majority of his behaviors are justified. Only when he really crosses the line (more than usual) does he admit that I didn't deserve whatever happened that time.

Everyone seems to think that he is going to end up hurting me eventually. If he has a point he stops at all through the years, what lets you know that it won't just continue like this forever?
Posted By: unwritten Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/10/15 05:24 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16

Everyone seems to think that he is going to end up hurting me eventually. If he has a point he stops at all through the years, what lets you know that it won't just continue like this forever?


Would you load a gun up with one bullet and keep pulling the trigger, because there is a *chance* that you will never get the bullet? That is exactly what you are doing. Abuse and control escalates. He is already escalating since you have started 'acting different' and he is tipped off to the fact that you are considering separation.

And what if it doesn't, and it just stays this way for the rest of your life. Is that the kind of life you want to live? Is that the kind of family you want to raise your children in?
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/10/15 05:43 PM
Originally Posted By: unwritten
Originally Posted By: JBKT16

Everyone seems to think that he is going to end up hurting me eventually. If he has a point he stops at all through the years, what lets you know that it won't just continue like this forever?


Would you load a gun up with one bullet and keep pulling the trigger, because there is a *chance* that you will never get the bullet? That is exactly what you are doing. Abuse and control escalates. He is already escalating since you have started 'acting different' and he is tipped off to the fact that you are considering separation.

And what if it doesn't, and it just stays this way for the rest of your life. Is that the kind of life you want to live? Is that the kind of family you want to raise your children in?


Thank you, I wasn't saying that I was ok with staying like we are for the rest of our life's. I am not alright with that at all. And I won't live that way forever, it has gone on long enough. Even though the issues have always been there, they have gotten much worse in the last few years, I would never have lasted 12 years of this.

And no, I do not want my boys to grow up in this environment. I will not stay if the changes do not last. Although we have argued some in the last few days, none of them have escalated like they typically do.

I was only asking if, in y'alls experience, there were red flags for the men (or women) who eventually escalated to violence (even after years of mental abuse / without physical)?
Posted By: unwritten Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/10/15 06:07 PM
I cannot speak for others, only for myself with my experience in domestic violence. Yes there are many red flags for someone who is capable of physical abuse. Most relationships do not start out with a beating on the first date. They escalate over the course of sometimes years. Your H displays the same behaviors as a physically abusive person, whether he is there yet or not, or whether he never gets there. But lets not speculate on what will or will not happen in the future and get caught up in that. I am simply trying to get you to see the seriousness of some of his behavior. Lets look again at what is happening NOW.

Your husband is already abusive. Maybe not physically, maybe never physically. You are unhappy. He is either willing to change the behavior that is abusive and transform your marriage with you, to one that is safe and where you both give each other extraordinary care, or not. But since he is so abusive right now, it is best for you to work through that program apart to protect yourself.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/10/15 06:20 PM
Dr. Harley defines all angry outbursts as "temporary insanity." You never know what your husband will do when he is having an angry outburst. He may have never struck you in the past, but that doesn't mean the next time won't be a fatal blow. Men, who are usually seen as calm and gentle and loving, have maimed or killed their spouses during an angry outburst.

This is why Dr. Harley doesn't tolerate ANY angry outbursts.

All it takes is one time.
Posted By: Wife_Loving_Life Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/10/15 06:36 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Originally Posted By: unwritten
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
And how can I expect him to stop his negative actions if I won't fix what I am doing wrong. (in his mind)


Somehow, his behavior is your fault, and if you just did the right thing, behaved how he wanted, then he would not be forced to abuse you.

I really want you to see the seriousness of this. You are a stone's throw away from a trip to the ER or worse.


Thank you. I guess the fact that he stops short of hitting me, makes it much harder to leave. There have been times I actually wished he would hurt me, just so I could justify leaving. I know that sounds horrible, but I have really felt that way, like it would be easier to get through physical abuse than emotional hell.

The behavior being "my fault" statement that you wrote above is exactly how he feels. He does not think it is abusive though, I think he truly believe majority of his behaviors are justified. Only when he really crosses the line (more than usual) does he admit that I didn't deserve whatever happened that time.

Everyone seems to think that he is going to end up hurting me eventually. If he has a point he stops at all through the years, what lets you know that it won't just continue like this forever?


JBKT, even though you are not the one with the anger management issue, I still think listening to Anger Management 101 would be helpful. Melody Lane posted the 4 segments here:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2603602

Dr. Harley specifically addresses abusers who feel "justified" while angry (you've probably heard that you deserve what he's telling you). That is temporary insanity at work. I'm sure that when he's not angry, he doesn't feel that you deserve what he gives you. But that's the danger--when he is temporarily insane, he can't be trusted to be rational.
Posted By: markos Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/10/15 06:53 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Thank you. I guess the fact that he stops short of hitting me, makes it much harder to leave.


But that's when you should leave. Not later when it is too late.

Are you listening to Dr. Harley? He's got a lot of information about this sort of situation.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/11/15 02:45 PM
Ok, i need advice on how to handle a seperation in a state that doesn't recognize legal seperation at all (texas).

What happens with the finances? Right now i pay the bills, and we alot a certain amount go toward groceries etc. There is not much left over so to stretch it amongst both will be difficult. He will not be cooperative and don't want him ruining our credit that is not as good as it should be anyway.

Also the insurance for the whole family comes out of my check. So my check is much lower than it would be. Any advice on how to approach this?

Also, if i go to my parents, can i say that i do not want him showing up there to "talk"?

I don't want the boys to miss out on their dad, how do we manage time? I also don't want to have them through the challenging week days, for him to enjoy them on weekends....

Thanks everyone.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/11/15 06:34 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Ok, i need advice on how to handle a seperation in a state that doesn't recognize legal seperation at all (texas).

What happens with the finances? Right now i pay the bills, and we alot a certain amount go toward groceries etc. There is not much left over so to stretch it amongst both will be difficult. He will not be cooperative and don't want him ruining our credit that is not as good as it should be anyway.


In Texas, you should file for divorce. You can file, reach a financial and custody agreement and then drag out the divorce. That way you will be legally protected. If he doesn't change you can eventually finalize the divorce. If he does, you can drop the divorce.

Also the insurance for the whole family comes out of my check. So my check is much lower than it would be. Any advice on how to approach this?

Quote:
Also, if i go to my parents, can i say that i do not want him showing up there to "talk"?


Absolutely. You can limit him to email only [if that is what you want] and have your parents do the child exchanges.

Quote:
I don't want the boys to miss out on their dad, how do we manage time? I also don't want to have them through the challenging week days, for him to enjoy them on weekends....

Thanks everyone.


You would need to figure out what works best for you and the boys and then suggest that.
Posted By: Elaina7 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/12/15 12:15 AM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Ok, i need advice on how to handle a seperation in a state that doesn't recognize legal seperation at all (texas).

What happens with the finances? Right now i pay the bills, and we alot a certain amount go toward groceries etc. There is not much left over so to stretch it amongst both will be difficult. He will not be cooperative and don't want him ruining our credit that is not as good as it should be anyway.

Also the insurance for the whole family comes out of my check. So my check is much lower than it would be. Any advice on how to approach this?

Also, if i go to my parents, can i say that i do not want him showing up there to "talk"?

I don't want the boys to miss out on their dad, how do we manage time? I also don't want to have them through the challenging week days, for him to enjoy them on weekends....

Thanks everyone.


I am in Texas as well, and as Melody Lane suggested, the only way to do it protected is to file for divorce.... You have 1 year after filing to do something with it or you have to pay the fee again to keep it in place for another year. My lawyer said its the "legal separation" of TX.

Some people could move out & have the spouse act all great but I do not foresee that in your case.

2- money, if you file but do not pursue action, he has to provide for you during the entire separation or divorce- so you should be fine there, in fact if he removes funds from your joint then you just take him to court & the judge will order it and hold him in contempt if he doesn't.
This also means that if you have been paying for insurance- you still do. It kinda holds your bills in a status quo arraignment.

3. Yes, you should come up with rules for him (such as don't show up at parents) and give it to him when you leave. It should also contain your pathway back home.
I would post it here for us to help you with it.

You sit down and write out what kind of childcare you would like to split with him then & give him that with the letter. Let your parents trade....

Now-follow the rules you give him!!! if you give him rules & he shows up- send your dad out & don't talk to him! If he gets threatening- call the police. If he cries.... Let him, him... Just stick to your rules as he is so used to being able to run all over you, he at first will not know what to do.
Posted By: Elaina7 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/15/15 05:51 PM
Are you ok?
How is it going?

Please let us know that you are ok and what is going on.

Thank you!
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/16/15 07:35 PM
Thanks, I didn't mean to just disappear from here. My little one and I have been a little sick and I have been crazy busy at work.

So, a lot has happened.... last week after the prior weekend where he convinced me to stay. Things started off pretty good but then we started fighting again. I just couldn't take it anymore. Although there were no terrible blow ups just constant arguing....

So, I packed up and went to my moms for the weekend. I called and told him that I would go for just the weekend, IF he would leave me alone. No trying to convince me to come home, or saying hateful things via text, etc.

He was furious, and his first reaction was "I am leaving the game and coming over there to talk to you..." I told him, if you come over there, I will call the cops. I had his sister wait for him after the game to try and cool him down and I think that helped.

To my surprise, he allowed me to have a great weekend with my mom. He did text a few times, but they were just nice comments, not trying to ask me to come home or anything like that. When I got home, he gave me the space I requested and while I was gone he had set up an appointment with a counselor for the following Monday (this past monday). I think this was a huge wake-up call for him. The week before shook him up a bit, but he is trying really hard to be perfect (not that I need him to be perfect, just need the chaos gone).

He has suggested a date night on Friday and also is reserving a hotel for the following weekend for us to get away from the kids. I am very CAUTIOUSLY optimistic, but I do think he is sincere, if only it could last. I think he knows now, that I do have the guts to leave if I need to (especially now that the cat is out of the bag and my family all know what is going on). Thank y'all for encouraging me to tell them. It is so nice to suddenly have a support system that I have never had before!

Also, he is going on to talk to Dr Harley tomorrow. I am really anxious about this. I don't think he is too happy about talking to him, he is only doing it because he promised me he would, so I don't know how responsive he will be to his advice. But at least he is willing to do it, never thought he would!

I will keep y'all updated with how things are going, just knowing that if something goes wrong, my parents already know the situation, is a great feeling.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/16/15 07:39 PM
Oh, and in case you're wondering....the counselor asked for me to come as well, even though it was just supposed to be him originally. The session went ok, although he did seem really put out by some of the things he said to him.
Posted By: Elaina7 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/16/15 10:13 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Oh, and in case you're wondering....the counselor asked for me to come as well, even though it was just supposed to be him originally. The session went ok, although he did seem really put out by some of the things he said to him.


I am glad you told family & went to your moms...yeah!!!!! hurray

One word of caution. Don't confuse him with more than 1 counselor unless it is a behavioral therapist teaching him anger management. Which I would insist that he takes right away.

Dr. Harley really can be enough for the both of you concerning marriage and having couples counsel together in the same room is a huge huge no, no!!!
Is this his anger therapist?

Stay strong and be prepared to call the police and/or leave as soon as you need too.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/17/15 12:32 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Also, he is going on to talk to Dr Harley tomorrow

Will he be on the radio show?
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/17/15 03:00 PM
Originally Posted By: BrainHurts
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Also, he is going on to talk to Dr Harley tomorrow

Will he be on the radio show?


Yes, just him, I am unavailable, and Mrs. Harley said it would probably be good for him to be the one on.

And your right about the anger management....that is what he was supposed to be getting, that's why I was confused when he asked if I was willing to go (per the suggestion of the counselor). The guy is a clinical psychologist who doesn't seem to have a "specialty". He did mention maybe me coming one more time, and then him just coming, so I'm not sure what type of counseling you could call it?!
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/17/15 03:01 PM
Last night he set up a table with candles and went and bought us food to eat. We waited until the kids were asleep and had a great night. This is not something he has ever done before, I am just praying that this really was the wake-up call he needed.

We are also going out on Friday evening....
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/17/15 05:20 PM
He is getting into Anger management?
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/18/15 01:06 PM
I am a little disappointed, yesterday they had to cancel the live show, so we were unable to go on. Just hoping he doesn't back out by the time it is re-scheduled!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/18/15 01:52 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
I am a little disappointed, yesterday they had to cancel the live show, so we were unable to go on. Just hoping he doesn't back out by the time it is re-scheduled!

Do you know when it's been rescheduled to?
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/18/15 05:28 PM
She left a message with him saying next week sometime, but she has not followed up yet.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/21/15 02:47 PM
We are rescheduled for the show tomorrow. Our date night went wonderfully, we really enjoyed it. Then we took the kids to the beach the next day and had a great "family date".

Last night we ended up getting into an argument though about my pants. He says this one pair of jeans I wear to school are too tight. I honestly do not feel that they are too tight, I think they are flattering and he doesn't like me to wear anything that looks good on me, unless we are going on a date.

He says I am being inconsiderate of his feelings....If it was just this one pair of pants then I would understand. But I never know what I can put on. I'm tired of feeling like I am not allowed to feel good about myself. ( I would understand if I was wearing low cut shirts or short skirts or something.)

Every morning when I get dressed I never know what he will say. Something that is appropriate one day, is suddenly too tight the next.

Am I wrong for "being stubborn" or is this just more controlling behavior? I want to consider his feelings and at the same time be able to feel proud of myself, something I haven't felt in a while (appearance wise anyway).

Thanks again.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/21/15 04:14 PM
Ideally, a couple should negotiate on such issues, but the problems in your marriage are so great right now that it is probably not a good idea to address this now.

In a good marriage, the couple will negotiate until they find clothing that both like. For example, if I don't like a shirt my H is wearing he will change clothes because he wants to look attractive for me. And vice versa. The key is choosing clothing that is appealing to both.

I would bring this up in your conversation with Dr. Harley.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/22/15 11:32 PM
I heard your show today. Be sure and listen before tomorrow at 12 noon because it will be replaced by tomorrows show. It may take a week for it to show up in archives!

Let me know your impression of the show when you have listened.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/28/15 02:57 PM
I just thought I should update and share why I haven't really been on in the last week.

Just before going on the show my husband began researching marriage builders, and came across this forum and my thread. (I know you are probably reading this, and that is completely fine)

He read through my thread and actually was not as mad at me as I would have expected, but since then things keep being brought up that I said on here. I'm not saying I won't talk on here at all anymore, but it doesn't feel like an outlet I can be totally open with knowing that what I say could cause disagreements later at home.

Honestly, I wish he would be willing to join in the conversation.

As for the show, he was being honest, not lying about anything he said, but it felt like situations were being down played, or maybe that they drew conclusions and he didn't correct them when they were wrong. But I know he took it very seriously and really did listen to Dr Harley, he was also very nervous about going on the show and I am sure that effected a bit the way he responded.

Just doing a schedule is no where near enough to answer our problems. Yes, we have had some success with doing a schedule, but that is not the problem. Since the show, he has not had any "outburst" at all. He has been working really hard on everything,and I can tell that for the first time, the effort is sincere.

But we just can't seem to stay on the same page. We went for a "weekend getaway" this past weekend and everything was great, wonderful, couldn't have been better. But we were already bickering as soon as we got back home. No screaming or outburst, best way to say it is "bickering". We had to go to my parents house for the first time since I left and shared with them (they watched the kids for us and we had to go pick them up.)

My mom and my husband had talked via text after the whole thing happened (when I confided in them and left for the weekend). Basically he re-assured them that he would treat me better and my mom was actually very caring toward him. I think he was surprised by this and said he gained more respect for my mom. I am saying all this to help explain the scenario Sunday afternoon. When we got there he didn't really even want to go in, but I encouraged him to, so the awkwardness of seeing them for the first time again, could be over with.

My parents were cordial, not rude at all, but not as friendly as they normally would have been toward him. He seemed very awkward and like he didn't want to be there.

When we got in the car I asked him "what was that about" (why were you acting so different, I thought my parents treated him fine considering the situation).

He said my mom made him feel uncomfortable being there and that she didn't make eye contact with him. I didn't notice the eye contact but she was sitting to the side of me.

I get that it is a bit weird / different since I confided in them about what was going on, but my family wants us to work it out, wants the best for us..... And were certainly not acting in a manner like they were trying to hurt him. After me asking what was going on, he got upset and I said something to the effect "do you blame her" (saying she knows her daughter was being hurt by you for years, do you blame her for being a little different). He said "no he understand why" but basically made it out to be that I was choosing them over him, which is not at all what I was doing, was only trying to have a support system.

Also, he has made me feel like I am not allow to confide in her anymore, and that if I do I should repeat everything I say to her. This is exactly why I never confided in the first place, I knew she would be there for me, but I also knew it would make things "awkward" and that he would see it as me going behind his back. Anyone have any advice on how we should be handling this? It's not like the situation is just going to go away......

Now, he is saying I don't care because after I got done with my meeting I made an excel sheet that had to be done, instead of coming down to talk to him more. I had came down to his room just before my meeting and it didn't seem appreciated anyway. Working together is becoming so stressful, and it should / could be a good thing. I like seeing him when we are happy and getting along, but feeling like I can't do my job because we have to deal with our drama is very overwhelming.

Thanks for any advice y'all could share, and for being a place for me to vent.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/28/15 03:09 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
I get that it is a bit weird / different since I confided in them about what was going on, but my family wants us to work it out, wants the best for us..... And were certainly not acting in a manner like they were trying to hurt him. After me asking what was going on, he got upset and I said something to the effect "do you blame her" (saying she knows her daughter was being hurt by you for years, do you blame her for being a little different). He said "no he understand why" but basically made it out to be that I was choosing them over him, which is not at all what I was doing, was only trying to have a support system.

Also, he has made me feel like I am not allow to confide in her anymore, and that if I do I should repeat everything I say to her. This is exactly why I never confided in the first place, I knew she would be there for me, but I also knew it would make things "awkward" and that he would see it as me going behind his back. Anyone have any advice on how we should be handling this? It's not like the situation is just going to go away......


You most certainly should continue to confide in your family and get their support. Your husband will need to stop doing things that embarrass him if he wants to repair that relationship, but you are not obliged EVER to cover up his abusive behavior. He has an opportunity to regain their trust and respect by stopping his bad behavior and becoming a great husband.

Also, I would call or write the Harley's again because from the sound of the phone call with your husband it seemed that you were abusing him. I would have NEVER recognized the situation as yours if I didn't know your H was going to be on the show. I don't think they have a clear perspective of the situation.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/28/15 03:14 PM
Quote:
Also, he has made me feel like I am not allow to confide in her anymore, and that if I do I should repeat everything I say to her.

When he has eliminated his angry outbursts, then you can talk about it together. Until then, the problem he needs to be focusing on is his angry outbursts, not whether or not you confide in your mom for support.

He doesn't get to have angry outbursts at you and then cut you off from your support system. Do not discuss this with him again until he has completely eliminated his angry outbursts. Flat out refuse to engage in the conversation. If he has a problem with that, he can take it up with Dr. Harley.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/28/15 03:39 PM
I agree that the show did not really reflect what is going on. I think he gave him good advice about anger management, but it wasn't the full picture, only a small piece of what is going on.

They should have had the full picture, we both sent very long, detailed emails, I would have thought they got the big picture. But it seemed as though while talking to him, the situation was downgraded, if that makes sense. I wish we could have both been on, but Joyce re-assured me that she had my side and that it would be the best for him to get the advice anyway, so he would know that his side was heard as well.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/28/15 03:42 PM
He has actually stopped the "outburst". I'm not saying we are getting along all the time, we are having great days, mixed in with a lot of little disagreements. But he is not calling me horrible names, or throwing things or any of the things that were happening before the show.

But the roller-coaster ride is what is so hard for me. Even though the disagreements are small, it is just so hard being great and then arguing and then starting it all over again. I know it will take time to get where we need to be, but I just want to go a few days, even a week without bickering, and going back and forth between good and bad.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/28/15 03:53 PM
Quote:
He has actually stopped the "outburst"

It has not been long enough since his last outburst to say that. His angry outbursts cannot be considered eliminated yet.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/28/15 03:59 PM
I agree that there are not necessarily permanently eliminated, but this is a great step forward for him. I have had a hard time controlling myself, I have done better about not yelling back, now that he is calm, but he says I am the one having the outburst now, because I have used foul language and have raised my voice some, but nothing like I used to when he was being so hateful toward me. I feel like this all is driving me crazy, the ups and downs.... What do I do to avoid being the one who is getting angry? This is NOT my nature, it only came about throughout the years and this being "normal" for us.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/28/15 04:34 PM
Quote:
What do I do to avoid being the one who is getting angry?

1. Shut up
2. Walk away
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/28/15 04:51 PM
Originally Posted By: Prisca
Quote:
What do I do to avoid being the one who is getting angry?

1. Shut up
2. Walk away


I was doing really really good with that for a while. That's when things really got bad between us. You're right though, I have to make sure I am not the one behaving like that!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/28/15 05:41 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
I agree that there are not necessarily permanently eliminated, but this is a great step forward for him. I have had a hard time controlling myself, I have done better about not yelling back, now that he is calm, but he says I am the one having the outburst now, because I have used foul language and have raised my voice some, but nothing like I used to when he was being so hateful toward me. I feel like this all is driving me crazy, the ups and downs.... What do I do to avoid being the one who is getting angry? This is NOT my nature, it only came about throughout the years and this being "normal" for us.


How has he suddenly learned to control his anger? Has he completed anger management?

In the call it sounded like you were quite abusive and had a major issue with angry outbursts too.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/28/15 06:31 PM
I don't know how he has done it....in fact that has been hard for me to wrap my brain around. No, he has not completed anger managment. I think more than anything, he just realized that he didn't want to jeopardize his marriage anymore.

If it was so easy for him all along, why in the world has it been so bad for so long??? I am glad for the efforts, but it does feel hurtful that he could just stop that easy. His feelings have not really changed, and the getting upset with me has not necessarily changed, he is just not blowing up over it.

As for me....I never was the kind of person to blow up at all. In fact I was a very happy, non-confrontational person when we married. I wanted nothing but to help us have a good marriage. I guess I was a bit ignorant in thinking that just appeasing him and trying to manage the things that were happening would some how make the marriage better. Looking back I know it didn't.

Throughout the years of hearing how much of a slut I was and being told disgusting things about myself (none of which were true), I eventually starting yelling back and "defending" myself. I know it is not right, I just didn't know how to handle all of the emotions he was causing me. I got married at 19, he was already grown. This did not help the situation. Even though in my heart I knew what was best for us, I think I would just give in for the sake of wanting our marriage to work, not wanting to disappoint him, maybe somehow he knew better than me since he had more life experience.

So I guess you could say my response to his abuse, was to act in a similar manner as well. But I took years to get where I am now. It was not like me at all. Is this typical? Do people begin to act poorly after years of feeling this way? I don't want to make excuses....I should act the way I need to, no matter what he does.

I never wanted to hurt him at all, all I wanted was to defend myself from the things I was feeling. Right now everything is focused on the outburst on both our parts, which is obviously a problem, but I see that he (we) are learning to control that. But what about the controlling behavior? He doesn't have to do outburst to make me feel so controlled. I don't feel like I can make a step without having to be paranoid about missing a text, or doing something to make him worry again. It is really hard to live like that. I want to wake up in the morning and get ready and feel good about myself, but if my clothes actually look good on me, then there is a good chance they are not ok with him. He won't admit this, but I honestly think he would be thrilled if I gained 50 pounds and didn't take care of myself. Which I am already headed down that road.

I know we can still be happy together. Just like this weekend, we had a great time together. But what I don't know / or what I need to know, is that the little hurtful things will stop and that I can have his support, even when we aren't out on a date night.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/28/15 06:40 PM
Originally Posted By: Prisca
Quote:
He has actually stopped the "outburst"

It has not been long enough since his last outburst to say that. His angry outbursts cannot be considered eliminated yet.


I agree with Prisca. Anyone can be on their best behavior for a short period of time. It doesn't mean the person has changed.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/28/15 06:48 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: Prisca
Quote:
He has actually stopped the "outburst"

It has not been long enough since his last outburst to say that. His angry outbursts cannot be considered eliminated yet.


I agree with Prisca. Anyone can be on their best behavior for a short period of time. It doesn't mean the person has changed.


I understand what y'all are saying. But lets just say that they stay eliminated....there is much more hurtful things that have to do with the controlling behavior that are still there. What do we do about those things? How does he learn to get past them, when he still has those feelings?? What do I do about having to stay by my phone every second so that I don't miss a text and trigger us going downhill? And when I say miss a text I don't mean I go hours without checking my phone....I mean I can text back 10 minutes (or even less) later and things spiral out of control. Even while I am teaching or tending to our kids.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/28/15 06:49 PM
What about my long post above? Any thoughts?
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/28/15 07:15 PM
Quote:
I understand what y'all are saying. But lets just say that they stay eliminated....there is much more hurtful things that have to do with the controlling behavior that are still there. What do we do about those things? How does he learn to get past them, when he still has those feelings?? What do I do about having to stay by my phone every second so that I don't miss a text and trigger us going downhill? And when I say miss a text I don't mean I go hours without checking my phone....I mean I can text back 10 minutes (or even less) later and things spiral out of control. Even while I am teaching or tending to our kids.

When he has his angry outbursts eliminated, there will not be a time when you miss a text and it triggers a "going downhill" catastrophe.

The problem is not that he'd like you to respond to a text within a certain time and that just doesn't happen sometimes. The problem is how he treats you when you don't do things the way he wants.

The problem of how long you wait to respond to a text CAN be handled in a very respectful way that makes both of you happy. Markos and I handle conflicts like this all the time now. But it CANNOT happen as long as either of you reserves the right to punish the other when things don't happen the way "they should."
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/28/15 07:19 PM
Quote:
So I guess you could say my response to his abuse, was to act in a similar manner as well. But I took years to get where I am now. It was not like me at all. Is this typical? Do people begin to act poorly after years of feeling this way? I don't want to make excuses....I should act the way I need to, no matter what he does.

It is very typical for the abused to become the abuser. It happens in marriages all the time.

Don't give yourself an excuse, though. There are reasons you respond with abuse, but there are no excuses.

The best defense: WALK AWAY. Trust me. I had an abusive husband, and the hours upon hours that I spent abusing him in return were nowhere near as productive or fulfilling as simply walking away and refusing to engage in the fight. There is empowerment in refusing to engage.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/28/15 07:41 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[I understand what y'all are saying. But lets just say that they stay eliminated....there is much more hurtful things that have to do with the controlling behavior that are still there. What do we do about those things? How does he learn to get past them, when he still has those feelings?? What do I do about having to stay by my phone every second so that I don't miss a text and trigger us going downhill? And when I say miss a text I don't mean I go hours without checking my phone....I mean I can text back 10 minutes (or even less) later and things spiral out of control. Even while I am teaching or tending to our kids.



Eliminating destructive behavior is the whole point of this exercise. We are not trying to eliminate feelings, but change behavior. Once you both eliminate all your love busters, you can negotiate things like how long you should reply to a text, etc. That has to be a JOINT decision.

You are getting GREAT advice from Prisca!! She has been through this and has resolved these problems.

Will your husband sign up and post on his own thread so we can speak to him?
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/28/15 07:55 PM
I would love for him to sign up and talk as well. Right now, he is reading everything I write, and I have suggested he join in. He doesn't say no, but obviously hasn't done it. I agree that the love busters need to stop on both ends. I was just saying that not that we are not blowing up anymore, it seems like we should be addressing other behaviors / problems.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/28/15 07:58 PM
Originally Posted By: Prisca
Quote:
So I guess you could say my response to his abuse, was to act in a similar manner as well. But I took years to get where I am now. It was not like me at all. Is this typical? Do people begin to act poorly after years of feeling this way? I don't want to make excuses....I should act the way I need to, no matter what he does.

It is very typical for the abused to become the abuser. It happens in marriages all the time.

Don't give yourself an excuse, though. There are reasons you respond with abuse, but there are no excuses.

The best defense: WALK AWAY. Trust me. I had an abusive husband, and the hours upon hours that I spent abusing him in return were nowhere near as productive or fulfilling as simply walking away and refusing to engage in the fight. There is empowerment in refusing to engage.


I know you are right....it felt sooo good when I started doing this before, and I haven't slipped all the way back, but I have been less successful than I was for a while there. There is nothing productive about what we have always done, not on his end or mine.

How did y'all manage to go from one extreme to the other/ how long did it take?
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/28/15 08:11 PM
Originally Posted By: Prisca
Quote:
I understand what y'all are saying. But lets just say that they stay eliminated....there is much more hurtful things that have to do with the controlling behavior that are still there. What do we do about those things? How does he learn to get past them, when he still has those feelings?? What do I do about having to stay by my phone every second so that I don't miss a text and trigger us going downhill? And when I say miss a text I don't mean I go hours without checking my phone....I mean I can text back 10 minutes (or even less) later and things spiral out of control. Even while I am teaching or tending to our kids.

When he has his angry outbursts eliminated, there will not be a time when you miss a text and it triggers a "going downhill" catastrophe.

The problem is not that he'd like you to respond to a text within a certain time and that just doesn't happen sometimes. The problem is how he treats you when you don't do things the way he wants.

The problem of how long you wait to respond to a text CAN be handled in a very respectful way that makes both of you happy. Markos and I handle conflicts like this all the time now. But it CANNOT happen as long as either of you reserves the right to punish the other when things don't happen the way "they should."





Maybe I don't understand or maybe I am not explaining well. We go downhill as in start bickering, not getting along, not being pleasant with eachother..... But there is no outburst (or there hasn't been since talking with Dr Harley) as far as yelling, name calling, saying terrible disgusting things.

But just because there is no "outburst" doesn't mean things are always happy or peachy....Punish is a good word, I do feel like if things don't go exactly to plan, I get punished, maybe thats a harsh word for it, but that is very much how it feels.

As for the joint agreement stuff. I very much would love for us to have a marriage that followed this, but I can't lie and say I am not a bit hesitant. I worry that it will be one more way to control everything. What happens when he won't agree to anything, when nothing is ok with him? What happens when we make an agreement and life gets in the way... Just going back to the phone example.... things come up sometimes, especially when you are trying to tend to two little kids. The other day he was texting over and over because I wasn't responding fast enough, and our son had ran off. Obviously I was more concerned about my son than his text being responded to immediately.

Thank y'all so much for the thoughtful replies!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/28/15 08:23 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
I would love for him to sign up and talk as well. Right now, he is reading everything I write, and I have suggested he join in. He doesn't say no, but obviously hasn't done it. I agree that the love busters need to stop on both ends. I was just saying that not that we are not blowing up anymore, it seems like we should be addressing other behaviors / problems.


Yes, you should be addressing your other behaviors, but the angry outbursts have to be eliminated FIRST. The program eliminates ALL of your love busters, starting with angry outbursts.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/28/15 08:24 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Maybe I don't understand or maybe I am not explaining well. We go downhill as in start bickering, not getting along, not being pleasant with eachother..!


Stop it.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/28/15 08:36 PM
Quote:
Maybe I don't understand or maybe I am not explaining well. We go downhill as in start bickering, not getting along, not being pleasant with eachother..... But there is no outburst (or there hasn't been since talking with Dr Harley) as far as yelling, name calling, saying terrible disgusting things.


It doesn't matter which way you "go downhill." The fact is, you do. And it doesn't have to be that way. You don't need to explain it better -- I get it.

But in a recovered marriage, you don't go downhill. You will be able to handle conflicts without all the bickering. You will be able to discuss the texting issue without bickering over it, and you will come to a solution you will both be happy with.

Quote:
But just because there is no "outburst" doesn't mean things are always happy or peachy....Punish is a good word, I do feel like if things don't go exactly to plan, I get punished, maybe thats a harsh word for it, but that is very much how it feels.

Any time one spouse seeks to punish the other, it is an angry outburst. Have you read Lovebusters?

Quote:
As for the joint agreement stuff. I very much would love for us to have a marriage that followed this, but I can't lie and say I am not a bit hesitant. I worry that it will be one more way to control everything. What happens when he won't agree to anything, when nothing is ok with him? What happens when we make an agreement and life gets in the way... Just going back to the phone example.... things come up sometimes, especially when you are trying to tend to two little kids. The other day he was texting over and over because I wasn't responding fast enough, and our son had ran off. Obviously I was more concerned about my son than his text being responded to immediately.

Whenever you use a word such as "obviously," you are disrespectfully judging your spouse.

I used to worry about POJA, as well. I hated to be controlled. I was told by Steve Harley that all POJA really is is "forced consideration for your spouse." It makes you consider his feelings as well as yours.

If you get what you want, but it makes him unhappy in the process, you are no better than he is when he abuses you. One problem a lot of couples have is seeing a problem as two-sided: his or hers. We must either do it MY way, or HIS way, and nothing else would ever make anybody happy. But there are so many solutions out there that can make BOTH happy, if you will just put down the nuclear weapons and talk about it like two civil adults.

Stop nuking each other.
Posted By: markos Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/28/15 08:38 PM
Dr. Harley considers abusive and controlling behavior to be a spectrum of several different things. Angry outbursts are the most extreme example. Dr. Harley actually classifies any attempt to punish one's spouse as an angry outburst. But even without angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments and selfish demands are also abusive and controlling behavior. They just rate a little lower on the spectrum.

You are right that all abusive and controlling behavior will have to be eliminated. That is part of following the program. With the texting response example, I notice that the basic problem starts with a disrespectful judgment: your husband feels that you "should" respond within a certain period of time, and when you don't he escalates to an angry outburst. Usually any sentence that's got the word "should" in it is a disrespectful judgment - it assumes that one point of view is right and the other point of view is wrong.

I had to drop all ideas of what my wife "should" do (and vice versa) so that we could create a happy marriage together. Now, when one of us doesn't do something the other would like, we ask for what we'd like! And if the other isn't enthusiastic about what we'd like, we negotiate an alternative. That goes for everything, including daily mundane things like texting each other and responding.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/28/15 08:38 PM
BTW, it is hard for you to see how this would work because you both are so used to pulling out your weapons and punishing each other. It's hard to imagine being about to talk about the texting issue, for example, without all the pain of punishment that is now associated with it.

But it can be done. Couples who have gone through the program and who have recovered marriages do it everyday. Markos and I used to be at each others throats, but we handle conflicts like that everyday WITHOUT bickering. And we are still very much in love at the end of the day when we go to bed.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/28/15 08:41 PM
Quote:
You are right that all abusive and controlling behavior will have to be eliminated.

You cannot use the POJA or negotiation until this is done.

Read: Four Guidelines for Successful Negotiation
Posted By: apples123 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 12:57 AM
1. An outburst doesn't require volume.

2. When I need to remember something, I usually have to write it down and repeat it to myself before the situation could occur. You might need to write a mantra on a note card then put it in your car and bathroom. Reading it aloud a few times a day will heLP you bring to mind when the instructions are needed.

Your card might say, "I will have no angry outbursts. If the conversation becomes unpleasant IN ANY WAY, I will walk away. If asked why, I will simply say, "I need a break." If necessary, I will leave the premises to allow a cooling off period."

If you are a Christian, add the reminder "Self-control is a fruit of the Spirit." Then pray over it.

You would read the card on arriving to work, at lunch and before going into the house at night.

3. You can do this.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 01:17 AM
If you need to address what you feel is an inaccuracy in your husband's thread, bring it up here.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 01:20 AM
The people here are great at reading subtext. Read some old threads; It isn't easy to lie here.

Before you two can do POJA,you need to eliminate all angry outbursts and disrespectful judgments.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 01:21 AM
Ok. I apologize. He is not downright lying, he is just not telling the complete truth. For example, i do get frustrated with the questions, but not at first. I answer them with 100% openness and honesty, but that's never enough. He will continue to question me to the point where i feel like i am on trial. Then yes, eventually i get frustrated.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 01:23 AM
That's badgering. I consider it a form of angry outburst.
If the conversation gets unpleasant, walk away.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 01:24 AM
Originally Posted By: apples123
1. An outburst doesn't require volume.

2. When I need to remember something, I usually have to write it down and repeat it to myself before the situation could occur. You might need to write a mantra on a note card then put it in your car and bathroom. Reading it aloud a few times a day will heLP you bring to mind when the instructions are needed.

Your card might say, "I will have no angry outbursts. If the conversation becomes unpleasant IN ANY WAY, I will walk away. If asked why, I will simply say, "I need a break." If necessary, I will leave the premises to allow a cooling off period."

If you are a Christian, add the reminder "Self-control is a fruit of the Spirit." Then pray over it.

You would read the card on arriving to work, at lunch and before going into the house at night.

3. You can do this.


Thank you for this post. You're very right, is doesnt require volume. When he doesnt raise his voice it is implied that he is doing nothing wrong. Tonight is a perfect example, i have kept my cool all evening, although everytime he's walked by he has made a remark. But since he didn't cuss or yell, somehow those are ok.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 01:26 AM
Originally Posted By: Prisca
BTW, it is hard for you to see how this would work because you both are so used to pulling out your weapons and punishing each other. It's hard to imagine being about to talk about the texting issue, for example, without all the pain of punishment that is now associated with it.

But it can be done. Couples who have gone through the program and who have recovered marriages do it everyday. Markos and I used to be at each others throats, but we handle conflicts like that everyday WITHOUT bickering. And we are still very much in love at the end of the day when we go to bed.


Actually i totally see how this could / does work. In fact it is exactly what I have always wanted in marriage. But didn't know how to achieve.

My problem is understanding how we could go from where we are now to that point, if he would really be ok with ever having a marriage that works this way.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 01:33 AM
Apples - yes he was being extremely sarcastic, that's the way he speaks to me constantly. He doesn't realize you were talking to me, i didn't correct him because you asked me to not write on there.

Also, yes i used to be bad about deciding things last minute, not because i was cheating or anything of that nature, i guess that was just my personality. But since coming here i have tried to be much more considerate of his feelings in that way. I have tried making plans ahead of time and not springing things on him. And yes, it may help sometimes, but honestly anytime i do anything wether he knows ahead of timebor not, it turns into something bad.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 01:39 AM
My husband doesn't raise his voice either. Today he gave a derisive huff. It is going in our complaints book tonight.

I have discovered my husband needs to learn about my complaints when I am not around. I started writing them in a journal so I Would be less associated with the bad feelings he gets from the complaints.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 01:44 AM
Melody - we do have lovebuster, i have read most of it. He and i read the first chapter and he got upset and said it was all from the woman's point of view (but that was before he spoke with dr harley). We were supposed to be starting reading together tonight and he is all mad at me, honestly i don't even know why. The only thing he really said was that i should have had the park on the schedule. (I took the kids to the park for maybe 15 minutes after school, because it was beautiful outside). He replied, well then i shouldn't have to put golf on the schedule.... He is not around after school, but it's not ok for me to make a decision to go to the park for a few minutes, and that is comparable to leaving the family for hours to play golf???

Now he just walked through the room and called me a lying [censored], because of the things i am sayingnon here, which are all true.

I didn't say anything back just for the record.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 02:00 AM
Now i am an F-ing [censored]....and he had the nerve to go into my sons room as he was trying to fall asleep and say that your mommy doesn't love me, and is going to take you away from me, you are probably going to have to go to Mimi's for a long time. My son was scared to death and started yelling and throwing things himself. I can't believe he would stoop so low as to scare our son.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 02:04 AM
Don't react. Comfort your son then go to sleep. Do not engage when you are this upset.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 02:13 AM
Email the Harleys to update them.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 02:34 AM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Now i am an F-ing [censored]....and he had the nerve to go into my sons room as he was trying to fall asleep and say that your mommy doesn't love me, and is going to take you away from me, you are probably going to have to go to Mimi's for a long time. My son was scared to death and started yelling and throwing things himself. I can't believe he would stoop so low as to scare our son.

I wouldn't stay with a man who called me a F-ing [censored].
Separate until his angry outbursts are eliminated.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 02:37 AM
What Dr. Harley told me:
Quote:
Prisca:

How is Markos doing with his anger management program? A point we often make is that if angry outbursts are not eliminated from a marriage, no other problems can be solved.

Best wishes,
Willard F. Harley, Jr.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 02:45 AM
Things will not get better for your marriage until you no longer tolerate his angry outbursts.

Markos hasn't had an angry outburst in 2.5 years, but he knows that if he has even one angry outburst today that I will kick him out. I refuse to live that way, and he knows it. He wants to keep me and our family, so he got himself under control.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 01:14 PM
Originally Posted By: Prisca
Things will not get better for your marriage until you no longer tolerate his angry outbursts.

Markos hasn't had an angry outburst in 2.5 years, but he knows that if he has even one angry outburst today that I will kick him out. I refuse to live that way, and he knows it. He wants to keep me and our family, so he got himself under control.


How long did this take and what made him finally turn around? I am glad he is posting on my husbands thread, I think he needs to hear from a guy not just all women.

Things went from bad to worse last night.... After I posted that last post on the site, I went in to comfort my son and calm him down. I did not say anything to my husband at all and he walked in the other room. When I came out from my son, he came and was trying to talk to me, particularly saying that the forum made us worse and was hurting us more than helping us, and that I was lying about him on here (I have no reason to do that).

I asked him if he wanted to be in the living room or the bedroom, and that I would go to the other. He was upset that I was not wanting to engage with him and said he would follow me wherever I tried to go. Then he turned off the tv that I was watching and said "he payed for the tv anyway". I don't know how he can say that considering we are both teachers, yes he makes more than me because he is also a coach, but it's not like I don't make money the same exact way he does. I then went on to say that if he wouldn't leave me alone I would call the cops... He then took my phone and slammed it on the tv stand in an attempt to break it. When that didn't work he said something to the effect of I'll make sure it is broken (don't remember the exact words), and then he went into the garage and I could hear him slamming it over and over into the concrete floor until he was satisfied that it was broken.

After this, I told him that he needed to leave. That the kids were already in bed and the right thing would be for him to leave and cool down and we would figure things out later. He refused to leave, so I went into my youngest sons room and picked him up, told my husband we were leaving.... I was going to put the little one in the car-seat and come back and get the oldest out of bed. But as I walked out to the car he went into our oldest sons room and starting saying how mommy was going to take him away from daddy and got him out of bed. Then when I told him to hand him over and that we were not going to stay in this environment, he would not let go of my son. Said he wouldn't let me take the oldest. There is no way I could have gotten him from him, and I was not going to leave him behind so I just stayed. Now I am just at a loss. We just came off the most progress ever, but now I have been called names again, and have a destroyed phone, and a hurt son (and yes he is correct that I have been quicker to get mad than him lately, but I stayed perfectly calm all night, and never said anything to him). Honestly, the biggest things have happened when I have remained calm, it is like he can't stand the fact that he is not getting me to behave that way.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 01:35 PM
Do you see now why you have to separate from him? Your marriage problems cannot be resolved unless and until he manages his anger. Just controlling his angry outbursts for a couple of days is not a solution, it is a band-aid.

Get yourself moved out of there and don't look back until he has actually gone through an anger management course and demonstrated a radical change for at least a year.
Posted By: doesnt_want_meFL Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 01:37 PM
I have no personal experience or wisdom to share for you, but I wanted to encourage you to take the advise you have previously gotten from the knowledgeable people here.
Please do NOT go back to your house, get your kids and go somewhere safe. The experience you just posted from last night is making me scared for you. If he has escalated to the point of destroying your phone so you can not call the police and physically keeping your son from you, you are not at all safe in the house with him. Please get away from him now before he escalates further!
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 02:01 PM
I am very concerned for his well being at this point. He continued to ask me what I was going to do and I said we can not be in the same house until things were straightened out.... Now he left school in tears really upset and won't answer my calls. I don't know what to do? I am very worried about him. I know he brought this on himself but I care about him and don't want him to do anything stupid.
Posted By: markos Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 02:06 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
How long did this take and what made him finally turn around?


I kept having angry outbursts until Prisca threw me out of the house and told me I couldn't come back until they stopped.

That was after two years of "doing Marriage Builders," too.
Posted By: doesnt_want_meFL Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 02:07 PM
I think someone previously advised that if you are concerned, or he threatens to kill himself you should call the police. Perhaps now we be a good time to do that?
Posted By: markos Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 02:07 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
I am very concerned for his well being at this point. He continued to ask me what I was going to do and I said we can not be in the same house until things were straightened out.... Now he left school in tears really upset and won't answer my calls. I don't know what to do? I am very worried about him. I know he brought this on himself but I care about him and don't want him to do anything stupid.


It's too late - he's already doing things that are an incredibly bad idea. The best thing you can do for him is stop enabling him and let him figure out how to straighten himself out on his own.

It worked for me!
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 02:26 PM
He finally answered, so I know he is ok. But he is extremely upset. I can't help but feel bad that he is hurting so much. I love him and don't want him to hurt, but I know his behavior is unacceptable.

He also thinks this forum is to blame for a lot of stuff. Which is not true....I knew what needed to be done years ago, but we were living far from family and I honestly had no where to turn.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 02:32 PM
Quote:
I can't help but feel bad that he is hurting so much.

He can change that.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 02:34 PM
Originally Posted By: markos
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
How long did this take and what made him finally turn around?


I kept having angry outbursts until Prisca threw me out of the house and told me I couldn't come back until they stopped.

That was after two years of "doing Marriage Builders," too.


How long (while separated) did it take you to get control of everything, and for y'all to be together again? Just curious, I understand every scenario is different.
Posted By: Elaina7 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 02:38 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
He finally answered, so I know he is ok. But he is extremely upset. I can't help but feel bad that he is hurting so much. I love him and don't want him to hurt, but I know his behavior is unacceptable.

He also thinks this forum is to blame for a lot of stuff. Which is not true....I knew what needed to be done years ago, but we were living far from family and I honestly had no where to turn.


I am sorry for all of this.
Stop talking to him please!
He should be worried about YOU!!!

(Calling him over & over is rewarding his angry outburst)

Go call your parents- tell them what happened-have a sudden illness to leave school and go pack your stuff- get your kids & go to your parents house.

Thoughts- never tell an angry man your calling the cops- just do it.
If your phone is taken- go to a neighbors house & borrow theirs even if you don't have kids with you- just get the cops there.

Always call the cops when stuff starts like this- again- even if you have to temp leave kids- go to neighbors or get in car to make it too a phone.

Don't ever just stay- you were in real danger!

So go get yourself safe- he is in a tailspin & it is only going to get worse..... Leave now because you care so much for him- it will give him a chance for help.
Posted By: Elaina7 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 02:43 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Originally Posted By: markos
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
How long did this take and what made him finally turn around?


I kept having angry outbursts until Prisca threw me out of the house and told me I couldn't come back until they stopped.

That was after two years of "doing Marriage Builders," too.


How long (while separated) did it take you to get control of everything, and for y'all to be together again? Just curious, I understand every scenario is different.


You should plan on a minimum of one year.
Longer if he struggles learning....

That is if he gets into an anger Management group etc. you can still see him/ talk to him if he behaves himself.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 03:37 PM
Originally Posted By: Elaina7
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
He finally answered, so I know he is ok. But he is extremely upset. I can't help but feel bad that he is hurting so much. I love him and don't want him to hurt, but I know his behavior is unacceptable.

He also thinks this forum is to blame for a lot of stuff. Which is not true....I knew what needed to be done years ago, but we were living far from family and I honestly had no where to turn.


I am sorry for all of this.
Stop talking to him please!
He should be worried about YOU!!!

(Calling him over & over is rewarding his angry outburst)

Go call your parents- tell them what happened-have a sudden illness to leave school and go pack your stuff- get your kids & go to your parents house.

Thoughts- never tell an angry man your calling the cops- just do it.
If your phone is taken- go to a neighbors house & borrow theirs even if you don't have kids with you- just get the cops there.

Always call the cops when stuff starts like this- again- even if you have to temp leave kids- go to neighbors or get in car to make it too a phone.

Don't ever just stay- you were in real danger!

So go get yourself safe- he is in a tailspin & it is only going to get worse..... Leave now because you care so much for him- it will give him a chance for help.


I did not want to enable him and I understand he put us in this position, but I do care about his safety and well being. All I wanted to know was that he was safe.

I knew the right thing to do was to leave, but with little kids it seems to be so complicated. What kind of mom would I be if I left the kids behind. He was already scaring them (he would never hurt them) but the things he was saying to my son were frightening him. In fact my son was afraid to walk up to me last night because he said "no, daddy said you want to take me away". Now I am the bad guy to my son when all I want is a happy healthy family for them.
Posted By: markos Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 04:12 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Originally Posted By: Elaina7
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
He finally answered, so I know he is ok. But he is extremely upset. I can't help but feel bad that he is hurting so much. I love him and don't want him to hurt, but I know his behavior is unacceptable.

He also thinks this forum is to blame for a lot of stuff. Which is not true....I knew what needed to be done years ago, but we were living far from family and I honestly had no where to turn.


I am sorry for all of this.
Stop talking to him please!
He should be worried about YOU!!!

(Calling him over & over is rewarding his angry outburst)

Go call your parents- tell them what happened-have a sudden illness to leave school and go pack your stuff- get your kids & go to your parents house.

Thoughts- never tell an angry man your calling the cops- just do it.
If your phone is taken- go to a neighbors house & borrow theirs even if you don't have kids with you- just get the cops there.

Always call the cops when stuff starts like this- again- even if you have to temp leave kids- go to neighbors or get in car to make it too a phone.

Don't ever just stay- you were in real danger!

So go get yourself safe- he is in a tailspin & it is only going to get worse..... Leave now because you care so much for him- it will give him a chance for help.


I did not want to enable him and I understand he put us in this position, but I do care about his safety and well being. All I wanted to know was that he was safe.

I knew the right thing to do was to leave, but with little kids it seems to be so complicated. What kind of mom would I be if I left the kids behind. He was already scaring them (he would never hurt them) but the things he was saying to my son were frightening him. In fact my son was afraid to walk up to me last night because he said "no, daddy said you want to take me away". Now I am the bad guy to my son when all I want is a happy healthy family for them.


You need to contact the police and file a police report. If he ever tries to stop you from leaving again, call 911.
Posted By: markos Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 04:14 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
I did not want to enable him and I understand he put us in this position, but I do care about his safety and well being.


Okay, nobody is suggesting that you quit caring about his safety and well being, so you probably need to quit interjecting that and using it as a reason not to follow the procedure that will make this problem better.

Regardless of how you feel about his safety and well being, you need to let him decide whether or not he is going to be safe and well. You can do that regardless of your feelings and whether you care or not.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 04:25 PM
You need to call the police. You need to stop telling him what you plan to do.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 04:29 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
I am very concerned for his well being at this point. He continued to ask me what I was going to do and I said we can not be in the same house until things were straightened out.... Now he left school in tears really upset and won't answer my calls. I don't know what to do? I am very worried about him. I know he brought this on himself but I care about him and don't want him to do anything stupid.


What you do is separate from him. If he is serious, then he will take steps to correct his behavior. Give him that opportunity.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 04:34 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[
I did not want to enable him and I understand he put us in this position, but I do care about his safety and well being. All I wanted to know was that he was safe.


His "safety" is not the issue here. YOURS IS. You are not safe with your husband. He is a big boy who can take care of himself.

Quote:
I knew the right thing to do was to leave, but with little kids it seems to be so complicated. What kind of mom would I be if I left the kids behind. He was already scaring them (he would never hurt them) but the things he was saying to my son were frightening him. In fact my son was afraid to walk up to me last night because he said "no, daddy said you want to take me away". Now I am the bad guy to my son when all I want is a happy healthy family for them.


Do the right things for yourself and your kids. Take your kids to your parents with you. Your husband is angry and unstable. That is not a safe environment for your kids.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 04:39 PM
JBK, the problem is that you allow yourself to be lured back by shows of good behavior instead of real, radical reform. You will continue to be a yo-yo if you do this. It is very typical that an abusive spouse will play nice long enough to get you off his back. That is all that happened here. You have to stop playing that game.

Move out with the kids and plan on staying away for at least a year to give him a chance to make REAL CHANGES. By that, I mean completing an anger management class and demonstrating true change over the course of a year.

You are "hurting" him by continually enabling him. As long as you do that, he won't have a reason to make the necessary changes that will allow him to keep his family. He is wrecking his marriage. Don't help him do that with your inappropriate sympathy that only serves to enable him.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 04:44 PM
Quote:
JBK, the problem is that you allow yourself to be lured back by shows of good behavior instead of real, radical reform. You will continue to be a yo-yo if you do this. It is very typical that an abusive spouse will play nice long enough to get you off his back. That is all that happened here. You have to stop playing that game.

EXACTLY!
Posted By: apples123 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 04:47 PM
Also, if he threatens self-harm, you should call the cops.

they will check on him.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 05:04 PM
Thank you everyone. I was not saying that I am not following through. I am following through this time, but I was concerned for his safety.

You're right myself and the kids safety are my first priority. I do want us to get our family back together and on the same page, but he is going to have to prove that he can do it first.

I emailed Dr Harley and he said the same as all of you are saying, that I should separate until he can prove to be past all of this.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 05:06 PM
Quote:
but I was concerned for his safety

Does he drink?
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 05:07 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
JBK, the problem is that you allow yourself to be lured back by shows of good behavior instead of real, radical reform. You will continue to be a yo-yo if you do this. It is very typical that an abusive spouse will play nice long enough to get you off his back. That is all that happened here. You have to stop playing that game.

Move out with the kids and plan on staying away for at least a year to give him a chance to make REAL CHANGES. By that, I mean completing an anger management class and demonstrating true change over the course of a year.

You are "hurting" him by continually enabling him. As long as you do that, he won't have a reason to make the necessary changes that will allow him to keep his family. He is wrecking his marriage. Don't help him do that with your inappropriate sympathy that only serves to enable him.


You're right, I want so badly for his changes to be permanent that when he takes steps in the right direction I convince myself that we are finally getting better. I think I am really struggling with my kids not getting to see mom and dad every night. My oldest has such a sense of family and will be so hurt by not getting to see either one of us on a daily basis.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 05:12 PM
Originally Posted By: Prisca
Quote:
but I was concerned for his safety

Does he drink?


Yes, that is another issue. He is not an alcoholic, but he does like to drink and as soon as anything gets going downhill for us he begins drinking. I even told him that he needed to never ever drink if things were not perfect between us. Of course he promised and didn't follow through. He was drinking whiskey throughout the evening last night and I am sure that just added fuel to the fire.

If we are getting along and he has a drink or two it doesn't effect him or the way he behaves, but when we are even the slightest bit at odds, and he drinks things go down hill really quickly.

I am not a drinker at all, so he thinks I am really judgmental about the drinking. I don't mind an occasional drink at a get together or something to that effect, but drinking as soon as you get home, or when it causes terrible things is not helpful to anything.

My concern though, was not about the drinking, he was coming from school and would never drink while at work, he is not an alcoholic, just doesn't make good decisions about when to drink and how much.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 05:16 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[
You're right, I want so badly for his changes to be permanent that when he takes steps in the right direction I convince myself that we are finally getting better. I think I am really struggling with my kids not getting to see mom and dad every night. My oldest has such a sense of family and will be so hurt by not getting to see either one of us on a daily basis.


Your kids are being "hurt" by watching their dad abuse their mother while their mother does nothing about it. Do you want your boys to grow up and act like punks around women? Your husband has behaved shamefully and as their mother, they need to see you take a stand against this. They need to know that if they grow up and act like punks, their wives will not put up with it. I would have a heart to heart with them and explain EXACTLY why you are separating.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 05:17 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[
My concern though, was not about the drinking, he was coming from school and would never drink while at work, he is not an alcoholic, just doesn't make good decisions about when to drink and how much.


He is a problem drinker. Any person who has no control over his emotional reactions should not be drinking.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 05:19 PM
And aren't you a Texan? Do you think your sons will have any luck finding a woman there who would put up with that treatment from a man?
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 05:36 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
And aren't you a Texan? Do you think your sons will have any luck finding a woman there who would put up with that treatment from a man?


Yes, we are Texans and you're right that I have been concerned for a long time what the boys were seeing and would eventually think to be normal. It is not ok or normal and I am not the kind of woman who lets people run over me, that's why i don't get why I didn't put a stop to all this before the kids even got to this age or heck before we even had them.

I honestly think my faith has been part of the problem... I know it may sound weird to some, but when you grow up thinking marriage is for life and you do whatever it takes to save it, it is really hard to find a way to admit that the marriage can't go on like this. Also feeling like I would be failing if I separated, considering all of my family is still married....grandparents, parents, aunts and uncles.... I do still want our marriage to be for life, but it is not going to continue in the manner that it has been.

I know that being a Christian doesn't mean that you have to suffer through abuse, but it has been something that held me back from doing what I knew was right, years ago.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 05:45 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[ honestly think my faith has been part of the problem... I know it may sound weird to some, but when you grow up thinking marriage is for life and you do whatever it takes to save it, it is really hard to find a way to admit that the marriage can't go on like this.


I don't think being a Christian has anything to do with it. If you think through this logically, separation gives your marriage the best chance at recovery. The status quo pretty much ensures you end up in divorce with damaged sons who believe it is ok to behave like punks. You are headed to divorce right now unless you do something to stop it.

Oddly, many cradle Christians believe that it is a "virtue" to hang around and tolerate neglect and abuse because of some odd, unChristian notions about "unconditional love." But nowhere does the Bible advocate staying with an abusive spouse. Harley addresses it here and you can see that everything he states about UL has been very true in your situation:

Quote:
The concept of unconditional love in marriage usually refers to a spouse’s lifelong commitment to care for the other spouse regardless of what the other spouse does. I’m in favor of a lifelong commitment to care regardless of unfavorable circumstances (health problems, financial setbacks, and other factors outside a couple’s control that can negatively impact a marriage). But I’m opposed to a lifelong commitment to care for a spouse when that spouse makes marriage-wrecking choices. It tends to give such people unrealistic expectations of entitlement—that they should be cared for, regardless of their willingness to care in return. Neglect and abuse characterize many marriages based on unconditional love.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 05:53 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[ honestly think my faith has been part of the problem... I know it may sound weird to some, but when you grow up thinking marriage is for life and you do whatever it takes to save it, it is really hard to find a way to admit that the marriage can't go on like this.


I don't think being a Christian has anything to do with it. If you think through this logically, separation gives your marriage the best chance at recovery. The status quo pretty much ensures you end up in divorce with damaged sons who believe it is ok to behave like punks. You are headed to divorce right now unless you do something to stop it.

Oddly, many cradle Christians believe that it is a "virtue" to hang around and tolerate neglect and abuse because of some odd, unChristian notions about "unconditional love." But nowhere does the Bible advocate staying with an abusive spouse. Harley addresses it here and you can see that everything he states about UL has been very true in your situation:

Quote:
The concept of unconditional love in marriage usually refers to a spouse’s lifelong commitment to care for the other spouse regardless of what the other spouse does. I’m in favor of a lifelong commitment to care regardless of unfavorable circumstances (health problems, financial setbacks, and other factors outside a couple’s control that can negatively impact a marriage). But I’m opposed to a lifelong commitment to care for a spouse when that spouse makes marriage-wrecking choices. It tends to give such people unrealistic expectations of entitlement—that they should be cared for, regardless of their willingness to care in return. Neglect and abuse characterize many marriages based on unconditional love.


I totally agree at this point in my life that I want to separate to SAVE us, not to force us into a divorce. I was saying I think part of my problem throughout the years, before I came to this realization, was the "unconditional love" stay married no matter what attitude that I was raised on. Not that my parents ever wanted that for me, it is just the way we were raised.

I know the bible does not say you should stick around through anything, but I have also never sat through a sermon that preached about what to happen when things have crossed the line... I understand the answers to those questions now, but when things were just starting to happen, those lines were not so clear.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 06:00 PM
J. Lee Grady has written extensively about abuse and the Church. Most pastors have VERY doctrinally unsound ideas about abuse. It is never addressed BECAUSE of the false doctrine of unconditional love.

Dr. Harley has the doctrinally sound plan - separate for safety and to save the marriage.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 06:36 PM
Thanks for all the support everyone....I can't tell you how much I appreciate it. Although my family knows things are going on... I need an outlet, other than them to turn to, and I just want y'all to know how much I appreciate everything.

I asked him if he would be the one to leave. I don't want the kids to have to be out of their environment if at all possible. He said he would go from today through Saturday and that he would have the kids Sunday through Tuesday. I will still be getting them from school and I will just leave and spend time with my family as soon as he is home from work.

I think this will be the best for keeping things as normal as possible, but I am a bit concerned about what the "exchange" will look like. I told him it wouldn't be a time to talk, or make insulting remarks, that it would be an opportunity for him to be cordial and prove that he can control himself.

Does Dr Harley suggest going by certain rules while you are separated and how to handle each other? I know that there should be no dating / cheating that is a given that I would never do anyway. But as far as how much communication / when or how to communicate / dealing with the kids, etc. Are there any suggestions for how to make it as successful as possible? Thanks.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 06:45 PM
It would be best if he would just move out and see the kids on a visitation schedule. That way the kids could meet him in the driveway for pick ups and drop offs. You can't afford to be in a situation where you are seeing each other all the time. Your contact should all be through email for the time being.

If he won't do that, then you really need to move in with your parents with the boys and have them facilitate the exchanges.

The set up you propose is not going to work long term and it defeats the purpose by constantly putting you in contact.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 06:45 PM
Think long term, not short term...
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 06:49 PM
Separation means getting SEPARATE homes. Another downside to your plan is that he can come home anytime he wants ...and probably will. He can/will come sauntering in whenever the spirit moves him, to pick something up. It will his home after all.

Do you want him busting in when he has the next angry outburst? You need to REALLY separate and get yourself into a position where you are really safe. This idea does nothing to protect you and just keeps you at his mercy. I have no doubt he will change his mind next week and refuse to leave anyway.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 06:52 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
It would be best if he would just move out and see the kids on a visitation schedule. That way the kids could meet him in the driveway for pick ups and drop offs. You can't afford to be in a situation where you are seeing each other all the time. Your contact should all be through email for the time being.

If he won't do that, then you really need to move in with your parents with the boys and have them facilitate the exchanges.

The set up you propose is not going to work long term and it defeats the purpose by constantly putting you in contact.


The problem is he doesn't get home until late so if the schedule says he has them from Sunday through Tuesday, then Monday and Tuesday, he is not out early enough for him to pick them up.

We could all be outside, with me ready to get in the car as soon as he gets there....would that work? I told him, we would not be allowed to show up at all during each-others days with the kids. The only reason I would be there at all on his days, is so the kids can get picked up and taken care of until he is available for them.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 06:54 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Separation means getting SEPARATE homes. Another downside to your plan is that he can come home anytime he wants ...and probably will. He can/will come sauntering in whenever the spirit moves him, to pick something up. It will his home after all.

Do you want him busting in when he has the next angry outburst? You need to REALLY separate and get yourself into a position where you are really safe. This idea does nothing to protect you and just keeps you at his mercy. I have no doubt he will change his mind next week and refuse to leave anyway.


Sorry I just saw this, after I posted my other response. You're right that it will not work if he comes over anytime he feels like it. I thought this could be a way of him showing he has control over himself and putting the kids in the most normal scenario possible....
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 06:55 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Separation means getting SEPARATE homes. Another downside to your plan is that he can come home anytime he wants ...and probably will. He can/will come sauntering in whenever the spirit moves him, to pick something up. It will his home after all.

Do you want him busting in when he has the next angry outburst? You need to REALLY separate and get yourself into a position where you are really safe. This idea does nothing to protect you and just keeps you at his mercy. I have no doubt he will change his mind next week and refuse to leave anyway.


I guess I am just having a hard time understanding how he brought this on us, but the kids and I are the ones who have to leave and he gets to stay?
Posted By: markos Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 07:26 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
I honestly think my faith has been part of the problem... I know it may sound weird to some, but when you grow up thinking marriage is for life and you do whatever it takes to save it, it is really hard to find a way to admit that the marriage can't go on like this. Also feeling like I would be failing if I separated, considering all of my family is still married....grandparents, parents, aunts and uncles.... I do still want our marriage to be for life, but it is not going to continue in the manner that it has been.


It's not your faith; it's your feelings.

The REAL reason you don't do what you need to do to save your marriage is because you are afraid and anxious etc.

But the reason you TELL yourself you don't do it is your religious beliefs.

It's actually your feelings that are creating your religious beliefs. Other people who share the same religion as you don't share those beliefs. Your feelings are inventing them to justify not doing anything. They will invent a hundred other reasons, too, and give you a bunch of questions that don't need to be answered and other distractions. You need to act, but you don't feel like acting, so your feelings will gladly toss you an anchor instead of a life preserver.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/29/15 09:24 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16

I guess I am just having a hard time understanding how he brought this on us, but the kids and I are the ones who have to leave and he gets to stay?


Move to your parents today. In the meantime, ask him if he will move out for the separation.If he won't, then make arrangements to stay at your parents until you can get your own place.

And you do understand why this is. Life is not fair and you are old enough to understand that.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/30/15 02:46 AM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Thanks for all the support everyone....I can't tell you how much I appreciate it. Although my family knows things are going on... I need an outlet, other than them to turn to, and I just want y'all to know how much I appreciate everything.

I asked him if he would be the one to leave. I don't want the kids to have to be out of their environment if at all possible. He said he would go from today through Saturday and that he would have the kids Sunday through Tuesday. I will still be getting them from school and I will just leave and spend time with my family as soon as he is home from work.

I think this will be the best for keeping things as normal as possible, but I am a bit concerned about what the "exchange" will look like. I told him it wouldn't be a time to talk, or make insulting remarks, that it would be an opportunity for him to be cordial and prove that he can control himself.

Does Dr Harley suggest going by certain rules while you are separated and how to handle each other? I know that there should be no dating / cheating that is a given that I would never do anyway. But as far as how much communication / when or how to communicate / dealing with the kids, etc. Are there any suggestions for how to make it as successful as possible? Thanks.


I've read about similar plans. Some authors promote them but they dont really work long term.
separation is separation. Not shared housing.
Those concepts are pushed by acedemics that have no first hand experience of your circumstances. In some cases, the authors aren't even married.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/30/15 02:15 PM
JBK, I hope all is well with you. When you are silent, I worry that your husband has gaslighted you into not coming back because he wants you to lose your only source of support. Please don't let that happen.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/30/15 03:00 PM
Please read.
Please Explain Gaslighting
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/30/15 04:54 PM
I am ok, just a really busy day at work, so I haven't been able to take a break and post....

I will update as soon as I get a chance. Thanks for the concern.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/30/15 05:44 PM
I know some of you advised against the plan I set out, but we are going to give it a shot. I honestly feel that it is the best for the boys. If he shows any signs of not respecting the guidelines, then we will immediately do something else.

I told my family what was going on, so that I will have a place to go when needed.

It is unrealistic to think that we would never see each-other at all, considering we work in the same school. So, having to exchange the kids will just be an opportunity to prove we can handle things appropriately. If not, we will do something different.

He would not be able to just "not bring me the kids" because I will be picking them up from school every day anyway. Basically he will be getting them from me, not the other way around. And I wouldn't do that to him, so there shouldn't be any problems in that regard.

The expectations are that communication is done through email, unless there is an urgent question about the kids situation, that can be done through text. If we run into eachother (including when he comes for the kids) interaction will be brief and polite, no talking about our marriage or anything of that nature. Neither of us is allowed to interfere in anyway with the others time with the kids. (No popping in at all) Also specified the days we have the kids, and some financial stuff.

After we got home yesterday, he explained to our oldest why we were going to be a part. And then he left and so far is keeping his word. I asked him to talk to our son because of what he told him the night before. My son was convinced this was all my fault, and I wanted him to tell him it wasn't. He was great with our son, and of course he is still confused. But he does understand that we are being a part so we can all learn how to behave in a better manner. It is giving me a teaching opportunity with him as well. He can get angry at times as well and I am trying to focus on the fact that we are all going to handle our emotions better than we have in the past, and that the past was unacceptable.

As for the "gaslighting" thing....that has definitely went on in the past but I am at a place now, where that is not going to happen. I want us to go on to have a happy healthy life together and the only way for that to happen is for us to both behave and react appropriately to situations. That includes me knowing what is right.

Thank y'all again for your support, I pray that he is able to make the changes needed for our family. I would love to be able to come back and say it worked like a charm!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/30/15 06:02 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
If we run into eachother (including when he comes for the kids) interaction will be brief and polite, no talking about our marriage or anything of that nature. !


Just know that the whole reason for separation is because you could not be "polite" to each other. You have already failed that test. It is because of this that Dr. Harley would recommend separation. A REAL separation. What you are doing is just window dressing that does nothing to fix the problem.

And yes, you do see each other at school, but that is a controlled, supervised environment. You won't have that protection with all this direct contact.

In my view, this new "plan" is just kicking the can down the road.

And lastly, what is the plan to correct his anger problem? Is there any plan here?
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/30/15 06:07 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
If we run into eachother (including when he comes for the kids) interaction will be brief and polite, no talking about our marriage or anything of that nature. !


Just know that the whole reason for separation is because you could not be "polite" to each other. You have already failed that test. It is because of this that Dr. Harley would recommend separation. A REAL separation. What you are doing is just window dressing that does nothing to fix the problem.

And yes, you do see each other at school, but that is a controlled, supervised environment. You won't have that protection with all this direct contact.

In my view, this new "plan" is just kicking the can down the road.

And lastly, what is the plan to correct his anger problem? Is there any plan here?


I understand that we could not be polite in the first place, but we are not going to be under the same roof or even going to be engaging each other.

I just don't see how this is just "kicking the can", we are separated. I will have my bag packed and ready to go as soon as he pulls up. Since I will be leaving without the kids anyway, he can't use that to keep me there like the other night in the middle of the blow-up.

He is seeing a clinical psychologist for his issues. He went last night and is going to be attending weekly. I do get your point, and I will be expecting the "expectations" to be followed completely. If not, I will take your advice and make a new plan.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/30/15 08:57 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
He is seeing a clinical psychologist for his issues.

Is their speciality in anger management?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 09/30/15 09:35 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16

I understand that we could not be polite in the first place, but we are not going to be under the same roof or even going to be engaging each other.


Well, yes, you will be under the same roof. You are living in the same home. He can come and go as he pleases and you will just be in the same situation. All of his stuff is there and all of your stuff is there. So yes, this is just kicking the can down the road. Separation means to separate, not to keep yourself in the home together and pretend to be separated.

You will need to be separated for at least a year so I don't this plan working at all, even in the short term.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Help Getting Started... - 10/08/15 04:52 AM
Here is your show.
Radio Clip of JBTK12 & JBTK16's Show
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 10/08/15 02:27 PM
Originally Posted By: BrainHurts


Thanks....now I wish we would have went on the show after everything happened and we separated. It seems like we need more advice now on how to recover.

And for your question earlier about "does he specialize in anger..." the one he has been going to did not. He was kind of a jack of all trades guy. But he decided to change to one that does, and he starts that this weekend. I think changing was a good decision, and I am glad he was willing to do that.
Posted By: DidntQuit Re: Help Getting Started... - 10/08/15 02:32 PM
Joyce and Dr. Harley always say that once you have been in the show you are part of the MB Family. So don't be afraid to email for additional advice.

Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 10/08/15 03:22 PM
Thank you.... and I did email them right after the incident happened and I was deciding to separate. He did respond and confirmed that I did indeed need to separate. (I had already done it at that point.)

Thanks again.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 10/09/15 01:47 PM
Are there any threads that are related to handling a separation that does not stem from an affair? I have tried searching, but pretty much everything I find is about Dr Harley's plan B and separating after an affair.

Thanks in advance!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 10/09/15 02:07 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Are there any threads that are related to handling a separation that does not stem from an affair? I have tried searching, but pretty much everything I find is about Dr Harley's plan B and separating after an affair.

Thanks in advance!


In your case, you would only be separated with limited, protected contact versus absolutely no contact as is prescribed in Plan B. You aren't in Plan B, in other words. In most of these cases, Dr Harley recommends communication via email or phone. After a while you can go out on dates if you feel comfortable.

FlowerGirl5 is in a similar situation and she spoke to the Harleys on 10-2.

Was there a specific question that you had? How is it going??
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 10/09/15 03:03 PM
Not a particular question I guess, just thought there might be a thread out there from someone who went through something similar. Everything I see doesn't seem to apply considering there is no affair on either part.

Is there a way to listen to old shows? I have only ever listened to the show that is airing that day.

It is going ok. The living arrangements are going fine. The kids seem to be really benefiting from the fact that they are still in the home, no matter who's day it is with them. The exchanges of the kids have been fine, nothing hostile or anything like that. There has been a couple times where conversation was started over our situation, but it didn't become a problem at all.

The things I am struggling with are....how much communication should be taking place, how long before we should try to spend time together, how should I handle the resentment I am sometimes feeling????? Just little detail things. There seems to be so much about what to do during a separation after an affair, but I haven't found much at all about what to do in our situation, other than the fact that separation is recommended.

Also, how do you know when "real change" is being made vs. just a temporary fix? He is making steps in the right direction and I can tell he is trying really hard. And I know his intentions are sincere, but when does it cross over from being a temporary fix to real change?

When we do start going on dates again, it is almost a given that the dates will go well, but that doesn't give me any indication on how "normal life" will go.

Last but not least, I know the things he needs to do to turn this around. But I'm not so sure what all I should be doing in the meantime? At the moment, I am just trying to relax and feel less stressed, that is something I have not been able to do in so long. I am reading love busters, because I know I was engaging in them as well.

I guess I just need some general advice on how to help make this separation a success and lead to a happy marriage.

Thanks in advance for hearing my concerns!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 10/09/15 03:21 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
The things I am struggling with are....how much communication should be taking place, how long before we should try to spend time together, how should I handle the resentment I am sometimes feeling????? Just little detail things. There seems to be so much about what to do during a separation after an affair, but I haven't found much at all about what to do in our situation, other than the fact that separation is recommended.


You should communicate as often as you feel comfortable and the communication is productive to your marriage. You need to use your judgement on this. Some couples are so volatile that being in too much contact causes more harm than good.

Quote:
Also, how do you know when "real change" is being made vs. just a temporary fix? He is making steps in the right direction and I can tell he is trying really hard. And I know his intentions are sincere, but when does it cross over from being a temporary fix to real change?


It crosses over when it becomes a habit. So, when he completes anger management and really, truly conquers his anger issues AND demonstrates changed behavior for at least a year, you can be pretty assured he has changed.

Quote:
When we do start going on dates again, it is almost a given that the dates will go well, but that doesn't give me any indication on how "normal life" will go.


Great dates should be your "normal life."

Quote:
Last but not least, I know the things he needs to do to turn this around. But I'm not so sure what all I should be doing in the meantime? At the moment, I am just trying to relax and feel less stressed, that is something I have not been able to do in so long. I am reading love busters, because I know I was engaging in them as well.


Just keep doing what you are doing. Learn to relax and eliminate love busters.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 10/09/15 03:51 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
The things I am struggling with are....how much communication should be taking place, how long before we should try to spend time together, how should I handle the resentment I am sometimes feeling????? Just little detail things. There seems to be so much about what to do during a separation after an affair, but I haven't found much at all about what to do in our situation, other than the fact that separation is recommended.


You should communicate as often as you feel comfortable and the communication is productive to your marriage. You need to use your judgement on this. Some couples are so volatile that being in too much contact causes more harm than good.

Quote:
Also, how do you know when "real change" is being made vs. just a temporary fix? He is making steps in the right direction and I can tell he is trying really hard. And I know his intentions are sincere, but when does it cross over from being a temporary fix to real change?


It crosses over when it becomes a habit. So, when he completes anger management and really, truly conquers his anger issues AND demonstrates changed behavior for at least a year, you can be pretty assured he has changed.

Quote:
When we do start going on dates again, it is almost a given that the dates will go well, but that doesn't give me any indication on how "normal life" will go.


Great dates should be your "normal life."

Quote:
Last but not least, I know the things he needs to do to turn this around. But I'm not so sure what all I should be doing in the meantime? At the moment, I am just trying to relax and feel less stressed, that is something I have not been able to do in so long. I am reading love busters, because I know I was engaging in them as well.


Just keep doing what you are doing. Learn to relax and eliminate love busters.


Thanks for everything.

But how do I know when it is a habit???? Not just something he is doing to get me to come back? And then it is all going to go out the window as soon as something starts getting to him.

As for the "normal life", our dates have always been good (for the most part anyway, there have been a few times that "date night" ended badly for one reason or another). But we can't be on a date all day everyday, so it's the in between, the times we aren't together... at work, or when he's at a game, etc. Basically anytime that we aren't going on a date or spending undivided time together.... These are the times that cause all the problems for us, and it is unrealistic to say we could just avoid ever being out of each-others sight.

When we start to date again, things will feel good and right, but how will I know that when I get back under the same roof with him and we aren't on a date, that things will be different, dramatically different than they ever were before?

What do I do about the hurt and resentment I am still feeling? Does that just go away with time?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 10/09/15 04:48 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[

But how do I know when it is a habit???? Not just something he is doing to get me to come back? And then it is all going to go out the window as soon as something starts getting to him.


He is doing everything to get you back so when you see him demonstrating good behavior over a long period of time, you will believe it. Dr Harley advises giving it at least a year.

Quote:
As for the "normal life", our dates have always been good (for the most part anyway, there have been a few times that "date night" ended badly for one reason or another). But we can't be on a date all day everyday, so it's the in between, the times we aren't together... at work, or when he's at a game, etc. Basically anytime that we aren't going on a date or spending undivided time together.... These are the times that cause all the problems for us, and it is unrealistic to say we could just avoid ever being out of each-others sight.


I am not sure what you are asking here. If you are not together how would that be a problem?

Quote:
When we start to date again, things will feel good and right, but how will I know that when I get back under the same roof with him and we aren't on a date, that things will be different, dramatically different than they ever were before?


Read above. You will know when things are different.

Quote:
What do I do about the hurt and resentment I am still feeling? Does that just go away with time?



That goes away when you replace the bad marriage with a great marriage.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 10/09/15 04:54 PM
You're right, it is not a problem right now, while we are not together. I was referring to when we are back together. If we go on dates and that goes well, and the communication we have is going well while being separated, what happens when we are back together, and have to face the things that he would get upset about in the first place.... Showing me he can do the right things on a date, doesn't really demonstrate that he could do the right things while living together again.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 10/09/15 04:59 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
You're right, it is not a problem right now, while we are not together. I was referring to when we are back together. If we go on dates and that goes well, and the communication we have is going well while being separated, what happens when we are back together, and have to face the things that he would get upset about in the first place.... Showing me he can do the right things on a date, doesn't really demonstrate that he could do the right things while living together again.


Your only contact with him won't just be on dates. Over a years period of time, you will be able to see him in different scenarios and see how he handles stress. You can also work with his anger management counselor and get his opinion on your husband's process.

You just need to go with the flow and be patient. This isn't going to happen overnight.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 10/09/15 05:15 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
If we go on dates and that goes well, and the communication we have is going well while being separated, what happens when we are back together, and have to face the things that he would get upset about in the first place.


And lets say he did a great job for the next 12 months making changes and you start being together all the time again and he goes back to his old habits. There is nothing stopping you from ending the marriage at that point. It's not like you have to stay and endure it.

But if you are looking for some type of guarantee, that is completely unrealistic.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 10/09/15 06:21 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
You're right, it is not a problem right now, while we are not together. I was referring to when we are back together. If we go on dates and that goes well, and the communication we have is going well while being separated, what happens when we are back together, and have to face the things that he would get upset about in the first place.... Showing me he can do the right things on a date, doesn't really demonstrate that he could do the right things while living together again.


Your only contact with him won't just be on dates. Over a years period of time, you will be able to see him in different scenarios and see how he handles stress. You can also work with his anger management counselor and get his opinion on your husband's process.

You just need to go with the flow and be patient. This isn't going to happen overnight.


I understand what you are saying, and I understand that there is no guarantee. I just figured as many people have gone through similar things that maybe there were things to look for, things to expect, etc. I am hoping that I know the right time, and can trust my judgment on when is right to get back together.

Thanks again.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 10/09/15 06:24 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[
I understand what you are saying, and I understand that there is no guarantee. I just figured as many people have gone through similar things that maybe there were things to look for, things to expect, etc. I am hoping that I know the right time, and can trust my judgment on when is right to get back together.

Thanks again.


Just look for him to convince you over a long period of time. That is why Harley suggests being separated at least a year. That is long enough to change bad habits and long enough to demonstrate those changes.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Help Getting Started... - 10/09/15 06:35 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16

What do I do about the hurt and resentment I am still feeling? Does that just go away with time?


Here, Resentment Type A and Type B
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 10/09/15 06:45 PM
Originally Posted By: BrainHurts
Originally Posted By: JBKT16

What do I do about the hurt and resentment I am still feeling? Does that just go away with time?


Here, Resentment Type A and Type B


Thank you
Posted By: Elaina7 Re: Help Getting Started... - 10/19/15 12:40 AM
Hi!
I think about you every day. How is it going?
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 10/19/15 02:58 PM
Originally Posted By: Elaina7
Hi!
I think about you every day. How is it going?


Hi, thanks for asking! It is going pretty good. I just wrote a long response earlier and accidentally clicked off and erased it!!! The arrangement (as for him and I switching off at the house) is going really well.

He is working on everything, even helping more with the kids and house, things that I didn't necessarily ask for. He is also going to anger management and seems to be controlling himself much better.

Honestly I am having a hard time with allowing myself to accept the changes, I just feel so guarded still (understandably), and can't help but thinking the changes will go away, once he knows he has me back. I know he is really changing, because the things he is doing and saying are not things he has done in the past.

We did have an issue yesterday that I would like to get some feedback on.............

Yesterday was our day to exchange the kids. So before he was on his way over (for me to leave and head to my parents) he text me and asked if I had plans for the day. I was honest and said "yes, me and mom are probably going to go to the beach for a bit."

The beach is honestly my favorite place to go, it is so relaxing to me, and I know pretty soon we are going to be out of beach weather.

His attitude toward me instantly changed. He said that I was disrespecting him by going and flaunting around on the beach without him in a bathing suit. Now I know how this should have been handled if we were together having a happy healthy marriage....we would have been using joint agreement and I wouldn't have been able to go if he was not enthusiastic about it.

BUT we are separated because he wouldn't allow us to have a happy healthy marriage. So I don't feel like the same things apply to us right now. I honestly feel like I want to relax and enjoy being stress free, it is something I can't even remember feeling since getting married. And I was not "flaunting around" anyway. Would not do that. I had on a bathing suit top and shorts and we sat our chairs down in an area where nobody was, and visited for about 45 minutes, then headed home. It couldn't have been more innocent. But instead of being able to relax I continued to get text about "what was I wearing", that I should be being more considerate of our situation, etc.....

He has not been acting like this at all throughout the separation so far, and I know he is changing. The only reason I wanted to bring this up is because I was curious what the standards were during separation??? I guess I don't feel like "joint agreement" applies at this point. The only true "joint agreement" right now is that we will not flirt / cheat etc. Which I would never go back on. My "free time" has been spent with my mom, 100% of the time.

Thanks for any advice on how Dr Harley would recommend handling these types of situations during a separation.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 10/19/15 03:12 PM

The policy of joint agreement does not apply when there is abuse and separation. His behavior just reminds you of why you wanted to separate in the first place. Not a good idea!
Posted By: unwritten Re: Help Getting Started... - 10/19/15 03:39 PM
It sounds like he is still using disrespectful and abusive tactics to control your behavior.

He could have just said, 'it bothers me when you go to the beach without me' or 'it bothers me when you wear a swim suit when other men are present.' That's it. He has made a complaint for you to choose to respond to or not.

To change his pleasant attitude towards you, and say you are 'flaunting around on the beach' is disrespectful and manipulative.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 10/19/15 03:54 PM
Yes, this is the behavior that made me want out in the first place. But I do see the changes he is making. It has been a few weeks since we separated and this is really the first incident of this sort.

I was really just wondering if I did the wrong thing, by not "consulting in him". I just don't think that's the way it should work at the time. Yes, once we are back together and there is no more negative behavior....
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 10/19/15 04:45 PM
Quote:
But instead of being able to relax I continued to get text about "what was I wearing", that I should be being more considerate of our situation, etc.....

Did you respond to his texts? You really shouldn't engage him in these conversations. No response would have been the best response.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 10/19/15 05:14 PM
Originally Posted By: Prisca
Quote:
But instead of being able to relax I continued to get text about "what was I wearing", that I should be being more considerate of our situation, etc.....

Did you respond to his texts? You really shouldn't engage him in these conversations. No response would have been the best response.


Yes, I did. I guess I was hoping I could ease his mind, so he would know that there was nothing to worry about. But like usual, this didn't work. It just added to the stress I was feeling by having to go back and forth with him.

There are times, where I know that the conversation just needs to end (that it is not productive and is only hurting us), but I feel like I am being disrespectful as well by just not responding.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 10/19/15 05:23 PM
It is vital that you stop having these fights with him. And yes, they are fights. Stop engaging.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 10/19/15 05:24 PM
Quote:
but I feel like I am being disrespectful as well by just not responding.

Doing nothing is not disrespectful.
Posted By: markos Re: Help Getting Started... - 10/19/15 05:26 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
but I feel like I am being disrespectful as well by just not responding.


Dr. Harley doesn't consider doing nothing to be a love buster. So not responding when your spouse wants you to respond is not being disrespectful. This was a hard one for me to grasp and is hard for a lot of people. But you don't have to do everything your spouse wants you to do. If your spouse wants you to do something and it's a bad idea (like continue a conversation that's going to go somewhere bad), don't do it.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 10/19/15 06:13 PM
Thank you.... It makes a lot of sense to not feel obligated to do things that you know are not helping your marriage.

Besides this one incident, he is doing great. I just wanted to know how to handle it if something similar happened again. Thanks again for the replies.

We went to lunch today, and everything was positive, no love busters or anything of that nature. I really am feeling hopeful about his progress, and I just pray we can eventually have the healthy marriage I have always wanted!
Posted By: Elaina7 Re: Help Getting Started... - 10/24/15 06:33 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Thank you.... It makes a lot of sense to not feel obligated to do things that you know are not helping your marriage.

Besides this one incident, he is doing great. I just wanted to know how to handle it if something similar happened again. Thanks again for the replies.

We went to lunch today, and everything was positive, no love busters or anything of that nature. I really am feeling hopeful about his progress, and I just pray we can eventually have the healthy marriage I have always wanted!


How is it going? Have you guys signed up for the accountability program? Has he been listening to the MB radio? Read any of the books?

Just wanted to let you know that I am still here rooting for you!
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 10/26/15 06:51 PM
Thank you.... We haven't paid to do the program. We are just using the books we have and listening to the show. I'm not sure if he is listening, but he is reading love busters right now, and going to someone for anger management, he also reads on the website. And I am re-reading love busters. Before I don't think he realized that some of the things he was doing were hurtful, but he seems to be understanding that a lot more now.

Everything has been going really well. He has been really changing and working very hard to be better. But the last day or so has not gone so well, not terrible, but not good.

I was ready for us to start going on some dates and occasionally doing things together. Saturday he came over for a couple hours and we did pumpkins with the kids and had good conversation while the kids slept. I thought it was great, and I think he did too.

We had already planned to have our first date Sunday night.... (before spending time together on Saturday). After saturday went so well, I felt very excited about the potential for the date night, especially since I was starting to trust that things were/are really changing. ( It has been a month since we separated.)

The day at the house went great like I said, and although we were both excited for the date, it just didn't go well. There were no "outburst" or anything like that. But we just were bickering, he said I was giving him mixed messages (for example, I tried to play around tap him on the butt to show him I was looking forward to the night and was trying to keep it lighthearted). He said he knows he would not have been able to do that sort of thing, because I asked him to please have boundaries on the date (since it was our first date since separating).

Am I wrong for thinking that his rules and mine aren't exactly the same at this point. Since he is the one that has broken my heart, I feel like he should be respecting the time it takes for me to get back to normal (well hopefully a new normal). I guess a good way to say it is "fair is not always equal".....

I know he will probably not come on and ask about anything, so can I ask something kind of from his side....

He is trying really hard ( I can tell he is), but he seems to be getting frustrated when he thinks that his "efforts are not working". They are working, but this is something he has said quite a few times. They are working in the sense that the resentment was already starting to go away, that I was willing to go on a date, and was actually looking forward to it. But I guess from his perspective they are not working because he doesn't come home to me at night, that I haven't started showing affection again (I am kind of guessing on these things, he hasn't actually said WHY he thinks his efforts aren't working, this is just my best guess). He has somewhat implied these things.

Any advice on how to handle the progress? How does he stay motivated to change, how do I show him things are working, and that I do want the best for us? I think part of why last night didn't go great is because of these issues. He was doing so well this whole month and seems frustrated that it is "not working". Any advice. Especially if there is anyone who has been on the other side of this.

I know I did a lot of love busters last night (I know this is unacceptable) and I am still learning to handle myself. The stress I feel when I start to see even a hint of what he used to be, puts me right back so defensive and so guarded....

Well, I know there is no excuse for my behavior. I guess I am asking what advice would you have for a guy who is in the process of trying, and is not seeing the results from his wife's side?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 10/26/15 09:55 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
But we just were bickering, he said I was giving him mixed messages (for example, I tried to play around tap him on the butt to show him I was looking forward to the night and was trying to keep it lighthearted). He said he knows he would not have been able to do that sort of thing, because I asked him to please have boundaries on the date (since it was our first date since separating).

Am I wrong for thinking that his rules and mine aren't exactly the same at this point.


Here is the rule: dont do anything that annoys or upsets the other person. It would upset you if he tapped you on the butt. Apparently, it upsets him too, so don't touch him anymore. I would keep your distance since it bothers him so much.

Quote:
He is trying really hard ( I can tell he is), but he seems to be getting frustrated when he thinks that his "efforts are not working". They are working, but this is something he has said quite a few times. They are working in the sense that the resentment was already starting to go away, that I was willing to go on a date, and was actually looking forward to it. But I guess from his perspective they are not working because he doesn't come home to me at night, that I haven't started showing affection again (I am kind of guessing on these things, he hasn't actually said WHY he thinks his efforts aren't working, this is just my best guess). He has somewhat implied these things.


It took several years to create the detachment and withdrawal in your marriage and it will take MONTHS to gain it back. Whining and demanding about getting a return on his investment just pushes you away more. So yes, he is right. All of his efforts are UNDONE by bickering and by complaining that there is one "rule" for him and another for you.

Did you find those conversations pleasant and appealing? Did they make you feel close to him? Or did the conversation REPEL you? Give him that kind of feedback.

Basically, one session of bickering and nitpicking NEGATES ALL OF HIS PROGRESS. He is working hard, but not SMART.

Quote:
Any advice on how to handle the progress? How does he stay motivated to change, how do I show him things are working, and that I do want the best for us? I think part of why last night didn't go great is because of these issues. He was doing so well this whole month and seems frustrated that it is "not working". Any advice. Especially if there is anyone who has been on the other side of this.


The advice is: STOP THROWING AWAY ALL YOUR PROGRESS BY COMMITTING LOVEBUSTERS.

Quote:
I know I did a lot of love busters last night (I know this is unacceptable) and I am still learning to handle myself. The stress I feel when I start to see even a hint of what he used to be, puts me right back so defensive and so guarded....


I would strongly suggest you back off from the dates for a while. Its obvious he has not changed. He is STILL reverting back to his lovebusting, demanding abusive self.

How is his anger management going? Doesn't seem to be working at all.

Quote:
I guess I am asking what advice would you have for a guy who is in the process of trying, and is not seeing the results from his wife's side?


Trying doesn't cut it. If he wants to attract his wife back, he needs to eliminate the lovebusters and demonstrate a radical change over a long period of time. Making demands on you demonstrates no change.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 10/26/15 09:57 PM
]
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
The stress I feel when I start to see even a hint of what he used to be, puts me right back so defensive and so guarded....



Tell him this. You can also print up my post and show him.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 11/04/15 04:58 PM
Haven't been on here in a while but I am feeling very discouraged. The whole time I have been very hopeful that things could / would change. But I am just starting to feel really down now, honestly for the first time in the separation.

He is working hard to be better, his feelings towards me have clearly changed (appreciates what he has to lose now, seems to respect me more as an equal person, acknowledges his past mistakes - he never did that before....) But even though his feelings toward us have changed, and some of his actions have changed, I am really starting to doubt that he can change his actions on a consistent basis.

I feel like I am to a point where I have been let down one too many times. For those of you who have made it through a separation, how did you not give up?

I want us to save our marriage, but am wondering if it is possible? He had been changing so much, but every-time I think things are really getting better, there is a "set-back", not any "outburst" like he was having before, in fact I am having a really hard time controlling myself around him. I just feel so hurt and damaged.

We are still separated, but do continue to have some interaction considering we work on the same campus. The recent set-back was Halloween. I had said all along that I didn't want him to miss out on Halloween since the kids are still little and love Halloween, so we all went trick or treating together. He met me at the house, we all went to his parents house to let his mom see their costumes, visited for a bit, then headed back to our neighborhood to go trick or treating. I can't even remember why he met us there, but we were getting in the car already when he showed up. I asked if he wanted to just ride with us since we were going to be coming right back anyway (we were getting along ok and I didn't think a 5 minute ride would be a big deal. He said "no, I'll just drive"... I said something to like "ok, but it isn't a big deal if you want to come with us". I thought we were getting along fine, then he made a face and said "it's typical". (Basically saying its typical that I don't get to be around my family.)

This may sound like nothing but to me it was the same kind of sly / sarcastic remarks I was used to. It was really frustrating on a day that I thought could be good. Then when we got to his parents house, he was acting weird toward me, and just in general. I don't even know how to describe it....just different / not in a good way.

Then We got back into the car to head back to the neighborhood to go trick or treating. I thought he was right behind me, and we would be showing up at the same time, but instead he shows up like 40 minutes later. By that time my family (we were all going trick or treating together) was already at the house. They were nice to him and honestly didn't make anything uncomfortable. But I could tell the second he showed up that he was acting even more "weird" / different whatever the right word.

I just tried to go on enjoying the kids. It was pretty hectic anyway because there were so many kids out and it was raining... So I was basically just chasing the little one around making sure he didn't get lost (not much interaction with anyone). Toward the end of the trick or treating my phone rang. I looked at it and turned it off. He asked "who was that?" I had no problem answering his question, I knew exactly who it was because they had called earlier and left a message when we were getting dressed. I responded "it is a real estate agent calling about our old tenants, wanting to know there payment history..." Instead of believing my response, he rarely ever does. He replied "well, how would you know that?". I replied, "because they just called a little earlier and left a message".

At this point he was seeming mad at me, for who knows what, and things went down hill. He then caught up to me and said "imagine that you carry your phone around with you" (implying that I intentionally miss his calls, which I never do.

Then he says "why would you bring your phone with you anyway (in an ugly voice). I was so put out at this point and replied, "why the F do you think, I was taking pictures of our kids, it is Halloween". Obviously I shouldn't have replied like this.....

Why once everything seems to be getting so much better, does he always go back to things like this. He thinks this is a "little setback" but I don't think he is seeming to realize those are the little things that were constantly making me miserable before, its the last thing I need to see at this point, is reminders of his "old self" and our "old life" together.

Sorry for the long post, I guess this is kind of a vent. I just don't know what to think. I was feeling hopeful and this last thing (although it may not be that big) just made me think "maybe he can't change". I want to believe he can!

I ended up telling him that I have opened up too soon, and that we need to go back to very limited communication / interaction. I had started allowing more and more when I thought things were really changing. Since then he has been respectful and says he wants a chance to prove that this time there will be no "set-backs".

Thanks for listening.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 11/04/15 05:29 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
This may sound like nothing but to me it was the same kind of sly / sarcastic remarks I was used to. It was really frustrating on a day that I thought could be good. Then when we got to his parents house, he was acting weird toward me, and just in general. I don't even know how to describe it....just different / not in a good way.


Are you able to see how all this contact is making things WORSE? The whole point behind separation is to stop the bleeding of your lovebank while he works on changing his behavior. Your husband should be going to anger management classes to learn to change his behavior during the separation. While separated, you should have very little contact until he has been through a program that radically changes his behavior.

Good grief, shut this down. Get separated from him and then keep all communication to email. If that doesn't work, then get an intermediary.

Quote:
At this point he was seeming mad at me, for who knows what, and things went down hill. He then caught up to me and said "imagine that you carry your phone around with you" (implying that I intentionally miss his calls, which I never do.

Then he says "why would you bring your phone with you anyway (in an ugly voice). I was so put out at this point and replied, "why the F do you think, I was taking pictures of our kids, it is Halloween". Obviously I shouldn't have replied like this.....


Angermanagementangermanagementangermanagementangermanagement. Nothing has changed!!!
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 11/04/15 05:54 PM
Yes, I do see at this point that I opened up too early. I have explained that too him. Even if he suddenly had changed at this point, I am so fragile that it is too risky to have potential set-backs.

He seems to understand the state that I am in, and is respecting my wishes so far. It is impossible to never see each-other, but we were choosing to have additional interactions because things were going well. I see now, how risky those were. I don't have much left in me, and I have to protect the little bit of my heart that is left.

We discussed the holidays and the fact that we are going to need to have separate ones. I think this is one of the reasons I feel so sad. I know it is for the best, I have had so many holidays be ruined by him, that I know I can not set myself up for that potentially happening. I guess I had hoped that we could be "better" by then.

The only "risk" I guess we will be taking is our sons 3rd b-day party it is two weeks from now, is already planned out and only makes sense for both families (his parents / mine) to celebrate together. We are just going to the park and having a picnic, and letting the kids play on the playground.

He is going to anger managment on a weekly basis. You are right that things do not feel changed when he does things like he did on Halloween, it is in between those times that I do see change. I know that it sounds just like before, but honeslty there wasn't really "good times" even in between the bad before. We could have a good time together, that was different. But i never felt respected, supported, etc. even in between the issues.
Posted By: markos Re: Help Getting Started... - 11/04/15 06:59 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Yes, I do see at this point that I opened up too early. I have explained that too him.


nonono

Nothing to explain to him. Just do as MelodyLane suggested.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 11/04/15 07:27 PM
Originally Posted By: markos
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Yes, I do see at this point that I opened up too early. I have explained that too him.


nonono

Nothing to explain to him. Just do as MelodyLane suggested.


I know that you went through something similar, and y'all have a happy marriage. How long did it take you to start behaving appropriately / consistently? I know everyone is different, just curious, since y'all went through a separation and came out the other end better off.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 11/04/15 10:09 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
He is going to anger managment on a weekly basis. You are right that things do not feel changed when he does things like he did on Halloween, it is in between those times that I do see change. I know that it sounds just like before, but honeslty there wasn't really "good times" even in between the bad before. We could have a good time together, that was different. But i never felt respected, supported, etc. even in between the issues.


All of the "good times" are negated by the bad. Your husband just wiped out all his progress in one day. This is why you need to stay away. You are great risk of completely destroying your marriage forever with all this contact. Every time he slips up and lovebusts, your lovebank takes a massive hit. It won't be long before you HATE him if you don't already. Once you come to hate him it will be very hard to ever turn around. That is what this separation was intended to avoid.

It is not in your 3 year olds best interest for you to be at a birthday party with your husband. I would plan separate parties under the circumstances. Cancel the party and take the child to Chuck E Cheeses on your own. Your husband can hold his own party.

Quote:
It is impossible to never see each-other, but we were choosing to have additional interactions because things were going well.
]

Why is it impossible? You can limit all contact to email and have no direct contact. If he acts like a jerk via email, you can shut that off too.

And I am puzzled by why you keep saying that things are "going well." For that to be true, he needs to be anger free for many, many months. When has that ever been the case?
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 11/05/15 01:29 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
He is going to anger managment on a weekly basis. You are right that things do not feel changed when he does things like he did on Halloween, it is in between those times that I do see change. I know that it sounds just like before, but honeslty there wasn't really "good times" even in between the bad before. We could have a good time together, that was different. But i never felt respected, supported, etc. even in between the issues.




All of the "good times" are negated by the bad. Your husband just wiped out all his progress in one day. This is why you need to stay away. You are great risk of completely destroying your marriage forever with all this contact. Every time he slips up and lovebusts, your lovebank takes a massive hit. It won't be long before you HATE him if you don't already. Once you come to hate him it will be very hard to ever turn around. That is what this separation was intended to avoid.

It is not in your 3 year olds best interest for you to be at a birthday party with your husband. I would plan separate parties under the circumstances. Cancel the party and take the child to Chuck E Cheeses on your own. Your husband can hold his own party.

Quote:
It is impossible to never see each-other, but we were choosing to have additional interactions because things were going well.
]

Why is it impossible? You can limit all contact to email and have no direct contact. If he acts like a jerk via email, you can shut that off too.

And I am puzzled by why you keep saying that things are "going well." For that to be true, he needs to be anger free for many, many months. When has that ever been the case?


I have never thought things were "going well" overall....what I was saying was that there would be days here and there where things were getting much better, and I would really start to get hopeful and start opening up. Then yes, at that point the things he would do would "negate everything". There was one stretch where things were going great (for a few days) and then there was an issue (don't have time to type it all out). I told him that the things he had just said completely erased the last few "good days". His reply to that was "you are going to let 5 minutes ruin all my progress? Once again, I was the one doing something wrong, but yes, 5 minutes did ruin everything. It also made me start to believe that he could NEVER change.

My "lovebank" to a huge hit after these last two incidents. I don't feel like I have much left in me anymore. I still care about him and have love in my heart for him, but I feel like I have been destroyed to the core...
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 11/05/15 02:41 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[qHis reply to that was "you are going to let 5 minutes ruin all my progress? Once again, I was the one doing something wrong, but yes, 5 minutes did ruin everything. It also made me start to believe that he could NEVER change...


I don't think he understands the effect of one lovebuster. One lovebuster is like shooting a huge hole in the bottom of a pail. All of his lovebank deposits bleed out of the hole. In short, he is shooting himself in the foot.

You didn't comment on my suggestions to really separate. What you have been doing is a separation "lite" and not a true separation. Can you see how that hasn't been working?
Posted By: markos Re: Help Getting Started... - 11/05/15 05:00 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
My "lovebank" to a huge hit after these last two incidents. I don't feel like I have much left in me anymore.


You are destroying the last chance your marriage might ever have. By the time he gets anger free, if he ever does, you will no longer be willing to give him another chance.

You need to stop seeing him and having contact with him.

And you need to quit saying it's impossible to never see him. Or at least stop seeing him. You can keep claiming it's impossible if you'll do it anyway.

Either stop seeing him and wait, or stop seeing him and file for divorce. Either way, stop seeing him.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 11/05/15 05:00 PM
I do think that our initial set-up was working (only texting when necessary - we don't really use email), and only seeing each-other briefly when we exchanged the kids. Then I started seeing some changes being made and started opening up more and more and allowing more talking, more interaction, etc.

I remember seeing on here that people starting "dating" again throughout the separation, and I guess I thought we were ready for that. Now I see that I should have stuck to the original plan longer, and seen more consistency BEFORE taking chances on too much interaction.

We are discussing our Thanksgiving child arrangements via text and I am so discouraged. He said for us to do our typical plan, which puts me having them Wednesday afternoon until Sunday morning, over the week of Thanksgiving (we are both off that week). He said he would bring them to me around 5 or 6 Wednesday. He knows we have a big family dinner thing with my extended family on that night, that is really important to me. I asked if he could please bring them by 3 so I will have a couple hours with them before all the company shows up.... (I wouldn't have seen them in days, which isn't "fair" anyway considering I wasn't the one who put us in this position).

Bringing them at 3 actually makes the time even, we would be "splitting" them Wednesday. Bringing them at "5 or 6" is basically having them all day considering they will be tired by 8.

So basically it has been a back and forth about 2 hours! Are you kidding me? He says he wants to win me back, he knows this means a lot to me, and wants to be difficult over 2 hours?! Am I seeing this wrong? I feel like I am getting screwed out of precious time with my babies because he couldn't act right as a husband (by not getting to see them for some days out of the week in the first place), and now I ask for something simple like bringing them before the get together and he is acting like I am the selfish one.

We have not been talking back and forth like this anymore, but this is something that had to be decided....
Posted By: markos Re: Help Getting Started... - 11/05/15 05:01 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
You didn't comment on my suggestions to really separate.


Come on, JBKT16. Stop ignoring this. You need to listen to MelodyLane - she knows what she's talking about!
Posted By: markos Re: Help Getting Started... - 11/05/15 05:01 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Originally Posted By: markos
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Yes, I do see at this point that I opened up too early. I have explained that too him.


nonono

Nothing to explain to him. Just do as MelodyLane suggested.


I know that you went through something similar, and y'all have a happy marriage. How long did it take you to start behaving appropriately / consistently? I know everyone is different, just curious, since y'all went through a separation and came out the other end better off.


I'll make you a deal. I'll come back and answer that after you follow MelodyLane's suggestions.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 11/05/15 05:05 PM
What I meant by "impossible" is that we work at the same school, have the same conference, same exact schedule all day long. So even if we don't intentionally see each-other, sometimes we just run into each-other.

But I agree that much more and I will not be willing to give him a chance at all. I pretty much felt that way after Halloween, but decided that it was worth "waiting and seeing", giving him another chance.

I also agree that all the additional conversations and interactions need to quit before my love is completely gone.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 11/05/15 05:13 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
What I meant by "impossible" is that we work at the same school, have the same conference, same exact schedule all day long. So even if we don't intentionally see each-other, sometimes we just run into each-other.


The contact I am concerned about is your contact outside of school. There isn't much he can do to you at work.

Quote:
But I agree that much more and I will not be willing to give him a chance at all. I pretty much felt that way after Halloween, but decided that it was worth "waiting and seeing", giving him another chance.

I also agree that all the additional conversations and interactions need to quit before my love is completely gone.


My suggestion - once again - is to end this fake separation where you both live in the same place. A true separation means you don't live in the same place anymore. It means finding another place to live and the kids stay with you part of the time and with him part of the time.

Would your husband move out so you can stay there 100% of the time? The kids could come visit him in another location.

You need to figure out how to really separate because you are likely headed to divorce. This fake "separation" is just kicking the can down the road and keeping you connected in a way that hurts any chance of reconciliation. It is also making you sick.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 11/05/15 05:15 PM
Was this move in, move out his idea? Are you afraid of rocking the boat?
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 11/05/15 05:22 PM
Originally Posted By: markos
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
You didn't comment on my suggestions to really separate.


Come on, JBKT16. Stop ignoring this. You need to listen to MelodyLane - she knows what she's talking about!


I understand y'all are right, and I can see it playing out just as y'all are saying.

To be honest, I have a hard time answering some of these questions (but I am not at all ignoring y'all) because I know he is reading every word I say, then I get text commenting on how I listen to y'all and need to talk to someone else. It's not that I am not listening and taking in everything you are saying, just don't like every comment I write on here getting thrown back in my face. (Just like I know this one will....)

I appreciate every single reply on this thread and I know if I never found "marriage builders" I would be still under the same roof going through hell, or in the middle of a divorce.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 11/05/15 05:27 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
What I meant by "impossible" is that we work at the same school, have the same conference, same exact schedule all day long. So even if we don't intentionally see each-other, sometimes we just run into each-other.


The contact I am concerned about is your contact outside of school. There isn't much he can do to you at work.

Quote:
But I agree that much more and I will not be willing to give him a chance at all. I pretty much felt that way after Halloween, but decided that it was worth "waiting and seeing", giving him another chance.

I also agree that all the additional conversations and interactions need to quit before my love is completely gone.


My suggestion - once again - is to end this fake separation where you both live in the same place. A true separation means you don't live in the same place anymore. It means finding another place to live and the kids stay with you part of the time and with him part of the time.

Would your husband move out so you can stay there 100% of the time? The kids could come visit him in another location.

You need to figure out how to really separate because you are likely headed to divorce. This fake "separation" is just kicking the can down the road and keeping you connected in a way that hurts any chance of reconciliation. It is also making you sick.


The "move in / move out" was my idea because I thought it would be the best for the kids, especially the 5 year old, to have some consistency through all of this.

The coming and going from the house hasn't been the issue. I have my stuff ready and leave when he gets there. The problem has actually been a few conversations that have unfolded at school, as well as the additional time that I willing spent with him (the date night / Halloween) because I thought things were getting better.

If I would have cut out everything but the brief child exchange, I think things would have been going ok at this point. The other problem is the texting. I said it was ok if there was a question about the kids that sort of thing, but he is constantly texting and a lot of times it ends in me being frustrated. (Although there has been nice conversations on days where things were going good.)
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 11/05/15 05:29 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Was this move in, move out his idea? Are you afraid of rocking the boat?


I have been so accustomed to not "rocking the boat" for so long.... And yes, that is a very accurate description with why I continue texting, etc. But the house thing I honestly did in the best interest of our kids.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 11/05/15 06:49 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Was this move in, move out his idea? Are you afraid of rocking the boat?


I have been so accustomed to not "rocking the boat" for so long.... And yes, that is a very accurate description with why I continue texting, etc. But the house thing I honestly did in the best interest of our kids.


The goal and purpose of separation is to become emotionally separated and if changes are not made, to be prepared to be divorced. What you are doing is not separation at all. You still live together, text each other, etc.

What is best for your kids is for their parents to be separated because of the emotional toll on their mother. What you are doing is most likely to result in divorce. This separation was intended to give you a better chance.

THAT is in the best interest of your children. Will your husband move out and let you stay there full time with the kids? If you are so concerned about the kids sleeping in their beds at night, your H could just take them out on playdates like most divorced couples do. For example, he could take them on Saturday afternoon and WEdnesday nights, but bring them back home at 8pm.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 11/05/15 06:52 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[
The "move in / move out" was my idea because I thought it would be the best for the kids, especially the 5 year old, to have some consistency through all of this.


There are better ways to achieve consistency.


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The coming and going from the house hasn't been the issue. I have my stuff ready and leave when he gets there. The problem has actually been a few conversations that have unfolded at school, as well as the additional time that I willing spent with him (the date night / Halloween) because I thought things were getting better.


Yes, it is an issue when you live together when you are supposed to be separated. This is a set up that is not sustainable and just keeps you emotionally entrenched. You are both still living together.

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If I would have cut out everything but the brief child exchange, I think things would have been going ok at this point.


ONCE AGAIN, you are using judgment that has failed you at every turn. It is beyond frustrating when you ignore the advice and then complain when your own special plan fails.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 11/05/15 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[The coming and going from the house hasn't been the issue. I have my stuff ready and leave when he gets there. The problem has actually been a few conversations that have unfolded at school, as well as the additional time that I willing spent with him (the date night / Halloween) because I thought things were getting better.


It is ridiculous to think that those "conversations" can *only* occur at school, therefore the only problem is school and not the fact that you are in direct contact. Do you think you have some special protection magic fairy who prevents conversations at your home?

The problem is face to face contact, WHEREVER THAT MIGHT BE. The whole point of separation is to eliminate damaging contact.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 11/05/15 07:09 PM
Ok, I understand everything that you are saying. We are NOT living together though....we are never ever under the same roof together. Interactions yes, but not living together.

He is furious that I am talking to y'all and says that the "reviews on marriage builders" are terrible and that y'all are ruining our marriage.

HE ruined our marriage long before marriage builders came into the picture, when I found y'all it gave me hope that there could be a chance for us...
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 11/05/15 07:11 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Ok, I understand everything that you are saying. We are NOT living together though....we are never ever under the same roof together. Interactions yes, but not living together.


Yes, you are living together but taking turns spending the night apart. It is not a separation, it is a band-aid, a pretend separation.

Quote:
He is furious that I am talking to y'all and says that the "reviews on marriage builders" are terrible and that y'all are ruining our marriage.


Of course he will be furious with any program that holds him accountable.

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HE ruined our marriage long before marriage builders came into the picture, when I found y'all it gave me hope that there could be a chance for us...


Agree with every word.
Posted By: markos Re: Help Getting Started... - 11/05/15 07:43 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Ok, I understand everything that you are saying. We are NOT living together though....we are never ever under the same roof together. Interactions yes, but not living together.


Stop the interactions.

When I was separated Prisca had me give her the key to the house so I could not come and go as I pleased. If I had not done that she would have changed the locks.
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Help Getting Started... - 11/06/15 03:19 AM
I don't really have to worry about him coming in angry or anything like that. He is doing much better with the outburst but the doors have latches on them anyway. Not meant to keep anyone out, but to keep my 2 year old in!
Posted By: markos Re: Help Getting Started... - 11/06/15 05:22 PM
Okay, well if everything is working well and you don't need our help...
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 11/06/15 07:05 PM
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
I don't really have to worry about him coming in angry or anything like that. He is doing much better with the outburst but the doors have latches on them anyway. Not meant to keep anyone out, but to keep my 2 year old in!

That's not the point.

You are not separated if he still can get in whenever he wants.

You keep asking how long it took markos to come around after we separated, but you're not listening to HOW I kicked him out. It doesn't matter how long it took markos, because you haven't even taken the first step.

You haven't taken control.

You are still living at the whim of an angry husband.

It's not going to work. IF your husband ever comes around to finally doing what he needs to do, your lovebank is going to be so deep in the red that you're going to hate him. You do not want to get to that point.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 11/06/15 07:18 PM
Originally Posted By: Prisca

You keep asking how long it took markos to come around after we separated, but you're not listening to HOW I kicked him out. It doesn't matter how long it took markos, because you haven't even taken the first step.


yep!
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 11/06/15 07:18 PM
Quote:
He is furious that I am talking to y'all and says that the "reviews on marriage builders" are terrible and that y'all are ruining our marriage.

This is not a man who is willing to do what it takes to recover his marriage. A man who is concerned about you and your marriage would encourage you to talk to whoever you need to in order to keep him accountable.

He would be here, asking to be kept accountable.

He would be talking to Dr. Harley, asking to be kept accountable.

He would NOT be furious at a bunch of strangers on the internet who are encouraging his wife to protect herself and her marriage.

He is furious because he is losing control.

You NEED TO TAKE CONTROL.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Help Getting Started... - 11/06/15 07:20 PM
Being furious at a bunch of faceless strangers is really telling. Seriously? He's not taking his anger management seriously at all.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 11/06/15 07:25 PM
so agree. We have a saying in Texas: money talks and bull**** walks. So far we have only seen the latter from this guy.
Posted By: JBTK12 Re: Help Getting Started... - 11/07/15 05:42 AM
Howdy -- It has definitely been a while since I have posted or responded on this site. But, after reading all of your professional advice and Disrespectful Judgments on my behalf, I feel compelled to share a little of my ignorance.

First to clear the air of a few things. I have faithfully been attending an anger management specialist and have made great strides in being able to control my temper and outbursts. I guess y'all know that from my wife's earlier posts (if you really pay attention to them). Still working on the disrespectful judgments -- they seem to be harder since my personality dictates a sarcastic side.

Next - I want to be upfront and honest. From being on the air, and before handing back all Marriage Builder material back to my wife (mostly because of the forum - MelodyLane, Markos, and Prisca), I do have respect for Dr. Harley and his work with others when dealing with relationships. Besides his work, he has the credentials to give advice. From going through our situation, I am thankful to men like Dr. Harley for the successes they have accrued in helping save marriages.

Next - As for the "strangers on the internet," I have absolutely zero respect. First Melody, as we also live in Texas, we have a saying too - "Don't mettle in other people's affairs when it does not concern you." and especially if you don't have the credentials to be giving the advice. Oh, but you might say I have been through a similar situation and this program helped me. Let's see, we have not had infidelity in our marriage (not similar) - oh, but you did - maybe the advice you should give to other wives is what not to do to make their husbands want to cheat on them. Markos, of all, I thought you were the wiser one of the three but then when my wife asked you a straight forward question, "I know you had been in a similar situation, how long did it take before you showed consistent change in your behavior?" you responded like this "I'll make you a deal, if you do what Melody says, I'll share" -- when shown this response to numerous people (male and female), most shared the common response "red flag" - why doesn't he just answer, wonder what he is hiding - unless these are the tactics taught to posters under Dr. Harley (which I highly doubt because he seems to be respectable). Prisca, how is it that you do not understand to this day that we do not live under the same roof. I stay with my parents when my wife has the kids and she stays with her parents when I have the kids. Just because she didn't make me cough up a key does not mean she does not have control over the house when she has our children. The couple of times I have come over, I respectfully knocked on the door and waited several feet back from the door so that when she opened it, she did not feel threatened or afraid. I understand (from my wife) that y'all are passionate about this program and possibly feel it is the best because of the success you had through it. As far as the control issue, I lost control the day she decided to separate. She controls when I am allowed back into our family. If and when we do make it back together, we will share power equally and work as a team. Neither of us will dominate the other - mutual respect.

Similar conclusions can be made using a variety of different methods. Not all couples are the same. There are extenuating circumstances to all relationships. But, the three of you don't bother to hear or read that - you only hide behind screen names and feel an overwhelming amount of power by subjecting others to your thoughts on THEIR relationship (and get upset when they don't do exactly what you say.) As far as not wanting my wife to go to anybody to find help or feel secure, not true, I asked her if she/we would want to go to a certified, degreed, and reputable marriage therapist of her choice. Someone where they got to know the both of us and our issues (one on one) or (together) if needed. I even asked her if she would want us to talk to her grandfather, who is a minister, and has had experience in guiding couples through their trials and tribunes using a Christian approach.

Finally - I have found a new respect and love for my wife because of this separation and I pray our marriage will be lifted to happier, healthier times in the future because of the situation I put my family in and through. I know I do want to be an integral part of their life for as long as I am given to walk on this earth. I am doing my part and trying to redeem myself for past mistakes to my WIFE and our CHILDREN.

Believe it or not, this was not an angry outburst. These are the thoughts of an ignorant soul that messed up his relationship with his wife and is now trying to show (through action, not words) how much she truly means to him.
Posted By: buildsherhouse Re: Help Getting Started... - 11/07/15 03:02 PM
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- maybe the advice you should give to other wives is what not to do to make their husbands want to cheat on them.
It doesn't help your position at all to threaten to have an affair. If you have an affair it is not her fault.
This comes across as a twisted way to try to control her through fear yet again.

I believe you mean to change and are working to change, but my message to your wife is to read carefully between the lines and not be intimidated by the numerous abusive tactics in this post. You have a long way to go before you get to equality and care in your marriage. If that's your goal, then get serious about it. Dr Harley, who you recognize as qualified,says it takes a year to change and three months of anger management before interacting much at all. Keep working. She should be in no hurry to take you back or interact with you. She's already not following the professional recommendations.
Posted By: JBTK12 Re: Help Getting Started... - 11/07/15 03:18 PM
Who is threatening to have an affair? I am certainly not, I may be a lot of things, but a cheater I am not. I do believe that when one is married, there was a reason you chose that person to be your spouse for life -

The excerpt taken from my post was directed at MelodyLane for all the advice she likes to give on this forum - it was meant to say she needs to stick to giving advice on things she might really know about.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Help Getting Started... - 11/07/15 04:18 PM
JBTK12, actually that was an angry outburst. And yes, we all know why you are angry. You don't want to follow the program, because you don't really want to change. You want to continue with your pretend "separation" and continue to fight with your wife and deliver lovebusters on a regular basis.

Quote:
First Melody, as we also live in Texas, we have a saying too - "Don't mettle in other people's affairs when it does not concern you." and especially if you don't have the credentials to be giving the advice.Oh, but you might say I have been through a similar situation and this program helped me.


You and your wife came to us. We didn't come to you. So no one is "meddling" in your affairs. You and your wife freely post your personal information here and ask for advice.

As far as "credentials," the only credentials we have on this forum is to give the advice that Dr. Harley would recommend. If you read the rules, if anyone is giving advice counter to his, that advice is removed. WE do not post based on our "experience." Obviously our "experience" is wrecking marriages, just as you have done.

Even so, my husband and I have been through the exact same program you are going through so I don't understand why you think I have no "experience." The basic concepts are the basic concepts. We went through the program with a certified marriage builders coach that was supervised by Dr. Harley.

What we do have is a thorough and complete understanding of Dr Harley's program. We have been through his program and have created happy marriages using these principles. So, the advice we give is from Dr. Harley. And yes, he has credentials.

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Similar conclusions can be made using a variety of different methods. Not all couples are the same. There are extenuating circumstances to all relationships.


I would just point out that you are not the best judge of that. I can certainly admit I don't have the credentials to save a marriage [outside of recommending Dr Harley's methods], can you admit the same? At least I have a great marriage I can point to; you don't.

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Prisca, how is it that you do not understand to this day that we do not live under the same roof.


She cannot understand something that is not true. You live in the same house, so it is ridiculous to say you are "separated" just because you spend the nights elsewhere sometimes. A "separation" means you MOVE out to another abode. You have not done that.

You have a whole team of people who want to help you save your marriage and what are you doing? Fighting with them. That tells me something very important: you are not serious about following the necessary steps to save your marriage. You have fought it the whole way and continue to fight it. Just know when you DO get serious, we will be here to help. But there is nothing we can do if you aren't serious.
Posted By: JBTK12 Re: Help Getting Started... - 11/07/15 04:59 PM
**EDIT**

Moderators note: if you are here to ask for guidance, we would be glad to open this thread. Since that is not your purpose, we will lock it. You will not be allowed to come here and fight and attack board members. Any questions, email me at mbdenali@gmail.com
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