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My WW and I have been married for 21 years. We have developed a rut, and have let our love banks become overdrawn. We have not met each others emotional needs for years. I am low T and low libido, and through stubbornness and fear had not sought treatment.
Ten years ago, WW had an affair. With the help of members here, and direct conversation with Steven Harley, I was able to help her end the A, and we entered a period of happiness and fulfillment. After the twins were born, we began to drift. I am a devoted and loving father, and WW is (was) a wonderful mother. We allowed our love for each other to take a second seat to the kids.
I did not follow all of the directions I was given 10 years ago. I failed to continue to meet her needs, and our relationship suffered. She began withdrawing from me, and I was blind to it.
After being a SAHM for 6 years, WW recently got a job with the grandfather of one of DD's friends (OM). Unfortunately this new experience and the attention from OM caused her to completely withdraw from me. I had no clear understanding of the degree of her unhappiness until we had a recent discussion, but by then it was too late.
I will try to be brief, but I have a couple of immediate concerns. OM was convicted of 3 counts of sex abuse over 20 years ago, as well as unlawful dealing with a minor. He was convicted later of assault and solicitation to commit assault when he and two thugs beat up his XW boyfriend. WW dismissed my discovery of this information, saying that it must not be true. She subsequently allowed our DS to ride in a combine with OM unsupervised. Also, last night DD(6) said OM and WW act like a couple.
Even though I don't have proof, I called WW's enabler sister tonight to inform her of my concerns. She knows about the A (but didn't offer any info), but she knew nothing about the crimes. I have not seen WW since this conversaton. I am not sure what will happen next. I am very concerned about the depth of the fog.
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Did you have a question for us? Did you want help saving your marriage?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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What was your former posting name?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I desperately want help. I am trying to remember my last username. I am working to better myself, and seeking medical help re Low T. WW agreed to see a counselor, but our appointment is not until 11/1. I will post old username when I find it.
My question is, what do I do about WW letting DD and DS be near this criminal OM while fixing my faults and trying to stop the A?
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I desperately want help. I am trying to remember my last username. I am working to better myself, and seeking medical help re Low T. WW agreed to see a counselor, but our appointment is not until 11/1. I will post old username when I find it.
My question is, what do I do about WW letting DD and DS be near this criminal OM while fixing my faults and trying to stop the A? Do you have direct evidence of the affair? i think its noble that you would try to fix your faults, but you have more pressing issues here, namely killing this affair and protecting your children from a bad dude. The reason your wife has had a 2nd affair is because she has poor boundaries around men. You could have met her needs 1000% and she would have still had an affair as long as her lovebank was open to others.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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WW agreed to see a counselor, but our appointment is not until 11/1. This will likely spell the end of your marriage because "counselors" are destructive to marriages. It will make it 10x harder for us to help you save this if you are seeing an unqualified marriage counselor who validates your wife's foggy thinking. Marriage counselors are not experienced with infidelity and cause great damage. The advice we give here comes from Dr Bill Harley, who specializes in infidelity.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Thanks for your quick response MelodyLane. I do not yet have proof of A other than my perception and WW's shiftiness. I am still looking for the trove of info in my old posts. Gimble was a big help back then.
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Thanks for your quick response MelodyLane. I do not yet have proof of A other than my perception and WW's shiftiness. That is where I would start. What would be the quickest way to get evidence? Do they speak on the phone? Does he come to your home?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Unfortunately I don't have any budget for PI now, but I did some amateur sleuthing in the past.
I figured out my original username, FORGED. Should I delete this thread and start again there?
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Unfortunately I don't have any budget for PI now, but I did some amateur sleuthing in the past.
I figured out my original username, FORGED. Should I delete this thread and start again there? I will notify the mods and ask them to merge your old thread so folks can see the backstory! For now, you need to quickly put together a plan to spy on her and get the evidence. I would also strongly consider seeing an attorney tomorrow about protecting your kids. Their protection comes first.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I have also requested a meeting with our Pastor, and she has agreed to talk there. Do you also recommend against that?
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WW works for OM. Place of business is near our house. I did look at her phone while she was asleep. Not much there. He texted a pic of him and a friend at a football game. WW also said in a txt to enabler SIL that I probably asked her to meet with pastor because "she couldn't lie to him"
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I have also requested a meeting with our Pastor, and she has agreed to talk there. Do you also recommend against that? I would FIRST get the evidence of the affair and then ask your pastor to reach out to her and ask her to end her affair. He can be a great exposure target. But don't do that until you have gathered evidence and exposed the affair. Are you familiar with the effectiveness of exposure? I found your last thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1323353&page=1
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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WW works for OM. Place of business is near our house. I did look at her phone while she was asleep. Not much there. He texted a pic of him and a friend at a football game. WW also said in a txt to enabler SIL that I probably asked her to meet with pastor because "she couldn't lie to him" That is great that you have access to her phone. You can download spyware on it. One good one is: https://webwatcher.com/another that some have used is teensafe. Check out this thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2832187#Post2832187
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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WW also said in a txt to enabler SIL that I probably asked her to meet with pastor because "she couldn't lie to him" You should stop trying to get your wife to confess and get the evidence. Don't ask her anymore if she is having an affair. Don't try to get your pastor to do this either. It is your job to get the evidence. Once you do that, we can help you with next steps.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I will work on the ware, and will gather other evidence. I will speak with our pastor solo at first, and will enlist his help at exposure time.
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Forged, you were here a long while ago, and much has changed on the forum since your first post. I don't usually post in betrayed husband's threads, but wanted to recommend that you read a recent husband's thread. I just have a hunch that you've got what it takes to have a similar result: wifedivorcing's story
DDays - six months of them THANK YOU God and Marriage Builders. We never knew that it could be this good! 
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I will read that thread and reread my old thread. I expect SHTF this evening. SIL said she would talk to WW today about OM''s crimes. Unfortunately I opened that can before I checked here.
WW is not tech savvy, so I should be able to get software loaded soon. She wears her phone like a scarlet letter, so it's all about the timing.
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I will read that thread and reread my old thread. I expect SHTF this evening. SIL said she would talk to WW today about OM''s crimes. Unfortunately I opened that can before I checked here. Forged, I would not take the time to read your old thread. The reason is because, unfortunately, the forum wasn't following the MB program back then; it was more of a platform to share personal opinions. We follow it to the letter now because we realize it gives you the best chance possible at recovery. I have been here every day for 15 years and I adamantly believe in the effectiveness of the MB program. WW is not tech savvy, so I should be able to get software loaded soon. She wears her phone like a scarlet letter, so it's all about the timing. Great!! One thread that would be very helpful is this one - he did save his marriage: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2801487&page=1
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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SIL said she would wait a bit to say anything to WW.
We are planning on making book inspired pumpkins tonight for school contest, but WW had to go to the office to meet with someone from a different company. She tried to take kids, saying no other coworkers would be there. I forbade her from taking kids, and had to leave work early to make that happen.
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SIL said she would wait a bit to say anything to WW.
We are planning on making book inspired pumpkins tonight for school contest, but WW had to go to the office to meet with someone from a different company. She tried to take kids, saying no other coworkers would be there. I forbade her from taking kids, and had to leave work early to make that happen. And that is the right thing to do. You need to take whatever steps necessary to keep your kids away from the OM. In the meantime, you have to QUICKLY get evidence of the affair so we can help you kill the affair and run the OM off.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I will read that thread and reread my old thread. I expect SHTF this evening. SIL said she would talk to WW today about OM''s crimes. I want to add that it is not your SIL's responsibility to protect your children from the OM, IT IS YOURS. You did the right thing tonight by not allowing her to take them around him. You have to ENSURE that never happens evne if you have to get a court order. We have had predators go after women with children in order to get to their kids. You can't let that happen.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I agree it is not SIL responsibility. I was simply trying to temper the poor advice she is already giving WW.
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I purchased Webwatcher and stayed up late helping WW with phone maintenance and photo storage. She watched her phone like a hawk. I had a couple minutes of opportunity to load it but it would not let me login. I could login on my phone, even in incognito mode. I will try again asap
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I was thinking of taking off work and surprising WW at her office with a snack or something, just to get a feel for the "dynamic" there, and possibly see OM... I have not met him, nor been to the office yet since WW has only been working for a few weeks. Is this a good idea or a bad idea?
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I was thinking of taking off work and surprising WW at her office with a snack or something, just to get a feel for the "dynamic" there, and possibly see OM... I have not met him, nor been to the office yet since WW has only been working for a few weeks. Is this a good idea or a bad idea? Thats a good idea.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Of course that did not go as planned. I went to her office, and not a soul was there. She said she had a full day in office of paperwork. No papers, no people. Her vehicle was there, as usual, as well as OM vehicle. There are plenty of other vehicles they could have used. I called her to let her know I was there, no answer. I used her PC to locate her phone, and location was turned of (rare). I know OM lives down the road from office, but she refused to tell me where. Sad and frustrated, but driven to get facts FAST.
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Of course that did not go as planned. I went to her office, and not a soul was there. She said she had a full day in office of paperwork. No papers, no people. Her vehicle was there, as usual, as well as OM vehicle. There are plenty of other vehicles they could have used. I called her to let her know I was there, no answer. I used her PC to locate her phone, and location was turned of (rare). I know OM lives down the road from office, but she refused to tell me where. Sad and frustrated, but driven to get facts FAST. Can you find his house and stake it out? Shouldnt be hard to do.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Well, we live in the country, so the driveways are LONG. I will ask her again and see how she answers. She sent me text saying that she had to go to the mucklands to help shuttle trucks, since they are harvesting ethanol corn. She said they are shorthanded, and was implying that I should go get kids from school. I let her know again that the "reason" I left work was due to stomach ailment and that I didn't feel up to getting them (legit). She tried again, and then acknowledged that she would get them. She knows that DD needs to finish her pumpkin for contest today, and it was their project. She is willing to disappoint our kids for whatever it is she is doing.
I will snoop some more for OM house. I have driven the road several times looking for an unmarked white truck, and boy, there are a lot of those! I will try to scout plate number when I can.
I was thinking of Intellius, but since OM just moved to this house 9/26, not sure it will be a listed address.
His crimes were committed before the registry... otherwise it would be easier to find him.
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So would she have left her car and driven something else to go to wherever she said she is at?
FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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Well, we live in the country, so the driveways are LONG. I will ask her again and see how she answers. NO! Don't ever ask again. All that does is put her on alert. STOP with the cat and mouse game and get the evidence. All you need to do is drive to his house and knock on the door when you suspect she is there. Truly, you need to be much more strategic about this.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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WW parks her car and uses a company vehicle when she has to drive for work.
ML, I am in full agreement that my strategy is underdeveloped. I am still in a bit of shock, but I am scrambling to get my plan in order. Proof is needed, and I am taking steps to get it.
I need to figure out how to get 5 solid minutes with her phone to get the ware installed. WW sleeps at the far edge of our bed with her back to me, facing her closet where the phone is kept at night. If DS or DD call her at night, she goes into there room, bringing phone with her.
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WW asked why I was trying to make OM look bad by talking to SIL. I said "because he is bad,and I want to protect you and our children." She told me that she talked to him about it and said he was charged because "he was 19 and she was 17" The court docs clearly show he was 26 at time of crime. Apparently the fog has disrupted her counting ability. I started to discuss, then paused, reiterated my demand that she not talk about OM to kids or let them near him, and said "It doesn't matter if you say you're having an affair or not. I love you now and will always love you. I am certain that the affair will end and we will save our M. I am certain we will get past this." She teared up and tried to hug me. I told her good night and went to bed.
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WW asked why I was trying to make OM look bad by talking to SIL. I said "because he is bad,and I want to protect you and our children." She told me that she talked to him about it and said he was charged because "he was 19 and she was 17" The court docs clearly show he was 26 at time of crime. Apparently the fog has disrupted her counting ability. I started to discuss, then paused, reiterated my demand that she not talk about OM to kids or let them near him, and said "It doesn't matter if you say you're having an affair or not. I love you now and will always love you. I am certain that the affair will end and we will save our M. I am certain we will get past this." She teared up and tried to hug me. I told her good night and went to bed. Did you hug her back?
FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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Yes, but she gave more of an arm hug. I am going to county clerk to get facts on crimes in writing.
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WW asked why I was trying to make OM look bad by talking to SIL. I said "because he is bad,and I want to protect you and our children." She told me that she talked to him about it and said he was charged because "he was 19 and she was 17" The court docs clearly show he was 26 at time of crime. Apparently the fog has disrupted her counting ability. I started to discuss, then paused, reiterated my demand that she not talk about OM to kids or let them near him, and said "It doesn't matter if you say you're having an affair or not. I love you now and will always love you. I am certain that the affair will end and we will save our M. I am certain we will get past this." She teared up and tried to hug me. I told her good night and went to bed. Forged, the goal here is not to be an enabler, but to be an affair buster. This sounds like you are inappropriately forgiving her. What you should be doing is NOT talking about the affair and getting the evidence. It matters VERY MUCH that she is having an affair because that is likely to destroy your marriage. I wouldn't talk about it and I certainly would stop being so cavalier about it. It sounds like you don't care very much. I don't know many husbands who would say an affair doesn't matter. And no, you won't always love her if she continues to have affairs. Please get the evidence!!
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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When you get the court records, have them certified. (Meaning that the court stamps them as true and accurate).
Last edited by Brits_Brat; 10/27/16 07:44 AM.
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ML, thanks for the perspective. I will immediately cease all A discussion. I will try to clarify what was said though, even though I won't discuss it again with her. I said it doesn't matter if she admits to the A, that no matter what the A will end, and I will be there to work one our M.
Sorry for using quotes when I was not accurately expressing the discussion
I am not going to be a doormat or enabler. Unfortunately a couple of her sisters are active enablers, and her parents are passive enablers. Exposing to them last time did have a strong effect on WW though.
I will get the docs notarized. I will also go to library to get fiche prints of the newspaper articles about the assault case, which he also lied about.
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ML, thanks for the perspective. I will immediately cease all A discussion. I will try to clarify what was said though, even though I won't discuss it again with her. i need to clarify my comments. It is ok to discuss the affair once you have evidence. Once oyu have evidence you should bring it up OFTEN and DEMAND that she end her affair. But by talking about it now, you just tip her off so she goes further underground. Saying that you will love her no matter what and pre-emptively forgiving her is very inappropriate. Will you love her if she NEVER ends her affair? I assure you that you WON'T. Unconditional love gives her false expectations and fosters neglect and abuse. And here you are dealing with the SECOND AFFAIR. Most spouses - rightly - would not put up with that. She is a serial cheater and in order to ever recover your marriage, she will have to make radical changes in her lifestyle. She has very poor boundaries around men and that has to change if you hope to save your marriage. I said it doesn't matter if she admits to the A, that no matter what the A will end, and I will be there to work one our M. So, I would avoid saying things like this. It comes across as very uncaring and also tips her off that you suspect. That doesn't help, but hurts your chances.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Got it.
I donated my Surviving book to the local library a few years ago. buying a new one today. Is it available on audio?
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Got it.
I donated my Surviving book to the local library a few years ago. buying a new one today. Is it available on audio? Good idea! He completely rewrote SAA a few years ago to include a part on exposure. You can get it here: https://www.amazon.com/Surviving-Af...;sr=1-1&keywords=surviving+an+affair
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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My evidence gathering is going slower than I hoped. I haven't been able to get near her phone in a few days. She sits in the bathroom texting long after I've gone to bed.
Last time I got evidence in her vehicle, but since she just parks it and uses a different truck that won't work.
I contacted county court clerk for docs. There's a good chance clerk knows OM. Maybe he'll hire cronies to come after me too. If clerk doesnt come up with docs from abuse conviction, I'm not sure how else to get them. A PI would be good for that probably, but I just don't have the funds. I found and printed the newspaper articles about the hired assault. (it was supposed to be a hit but thugs chickened out).
I called for legal help today, and will know more tomorrow. I will do what it takes to keep OM away from our kids.
Any ideas on gaining access to phone?
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Most County Clerk records are now available online. If you can't find them online yourself, email a moderator with the county, state and OM's name and have them email it to me. I'll see if I can find it. (I'm an attorney and a a bit more adept and understanding these websites than most).
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Thanks Brits_Brat. Message sent. I felt stonewalled at the start of my conversation with the clerk and was told only she could get the information. She responded "Hmmmmph, okaaaay" when given OM name.
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Forged, you are assuming that she is leaving the workplace to meet up with the OM. Is it possible that they are hooking up onsite? Theirs were the only 2 cars there, right?
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It is prossible. OM lived at this farmhouse. He built a new office building on site, with kitchen and possibly sleeping quaters. He moved to a different house down the road, and gave farmhouse to his daughter. There is plenty of space to hide an A there. When I stopped there the other day, I walked right in, looked around and then called out. I did not go in the back room regrettably.
I tried at 3am to work on ware, but WW was sleeping in kids room due to nightmare, and had hidden phone. I woke them early when I left for work. and spotted her hiding spot for next try.
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WW picked up sick DD from school today. She "stopped " at work with DD in the car to show OM our garlic planter. She left planter there, so now she has an excuse to go see OM tomorrow to pick it up. I'm curious why she thinks I would believe a big time farmer would need to see my rinky dink home made planter. I need to get some sort of surveillance in place now!
I'm not sure a PI would even help here, since we live in the country with no place to hide for observation.
I will stay up late and try loading the ware again. I know at least two of her best friends will be very influential one exposure starts. Once I get my ducks in a row...
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WW was texting OM tonight, as I watched on the online log. Need the proof, need to expose.
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Ready for the evidence to start piling up I read a bunch of fog speak and now my brain and heart hurt. Many deleted mssg to and from OM last night. I will see the next ones. WW is a bitter woman. I never realized how much before now. I have my work cut out for me. We still have our first counselling session scheduled Tuesday with a Christian marriage counsellor. I might cancel if I haven't exposed yet. I think it would be a waste of money.
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Have you read this and listened to the clips in here? Beware of Bad Counselors
FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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Ready for the evidence to start piling up I read a bunch of fog speak and now my brain and heart hurt. Many deleted mssg to and from OM last night. I will see the next ones. WW is a bitter woman. I never realized how much before now. I have my work cut out for me. WHAT did she say? Do you have evidence of the affair? We still have our first counselling session scheduled Tuesday with a Christian marriage counsellor. I might cancel if I haven't exposed yet. I think it would be a waste of money. It will actually hurt your marriage at a critical time.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Ok, now I've read, heard, and understood it. Cancelling tomorrow morning. When discussing it with WW last week, she had concerns such as "its supposed to be nice that day I wanted to plant garlic", and "kids have Halloween party day before and I have MOPS day after". Clearly she is not in the right place yet. Exposing the A is on the horizon.
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Clearly she is not in the right place yet. Exposing the A is on the horizon. Can you be more specific? I am not clear on what you mean. What do you mean she is not in the right place? What place? Do you have evidence? What is your evidence?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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By that I meant she in not in a mental place to work on M, thus, counselling would be a waste of time and money at the least, and a major catastrophe at the worst.
WW is chatting on the phone with facila-SIL with a lightness of being that makes it clear her EN are being met.
Evidence... I have very little, but I have equipment functioning now to gather evidence by the minute. I have a list of deleted texts late night to OM last night, but no contents. I have actual mssg contents of morning mssgs to OM, planning to meet today to get an unneeded garlic planter (who plants in the rain?)
I anticipate a landslide of info now that tools are active. Text is her primary mode of communication, and there were at least 30 deleted txt last night to OM. In the task manager, her camera showed a snap of the edge of her nightstand with her light on, but the images were deleted already. Apparently sending late night selfies to OM.
WW is offering to go to OM farm to get straw for our chicken coop. I said I would rather just buy some elsewhere. I am not sure if I should have just kept my mouth shut and let her go get it.
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You definitely want the court info before you do any exposure because you want to include that.
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Yes. Actual court docs, newspaper articles, Boy scout docs for character reference to increase concern and urgency. Photos and text and geo data to document A should be here soon.
I told WW that I cancelled counselling due to her timing concerns. She thanked me for being considerate of her needs. I expressed that the cancellation did not change our need to work on M.
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How do I know when I have enough evidence to expose?
A Pink Floyd line just popped into my head:
"The evidence before me is incontrovertible, there's no need for the jury to retire."
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By that I meant she in not in a mental place to work on M, thus, counselling would be a waste of time and money at the least, and a major catastrophe at the worst. Visiting any marriage counselor is a waste of time because they have no earthly idea how to save a marriage. Did you not want to use Marriage Builders? The reason Dr Harley created Marriage Builders is because MC does not work so he developed a program that does work. WW is chatting on the phone with facila-SIL with a lightness of being that makes it clear her EN are being met. How does this show you are meeting her ENs? Evidence... I have very little, but I have equipment functioning now to gather evidence by the minute. I have a list of deleted texts late night to OM last night, but no contents. I have actual mssg contents of morning mssgs to OM, planning to meet today to get an unneeded garlic planter (who plants in the rain?)
I anticipate a landslide of info now that tools are active. Text is her primary mode of communication, and there were at least 30 deleted txt last night to OM. In the task manager, her camera showed a snap of the edge of her nightstand with her light on, but the images were deleted already. Apparently sending late night selfies to OM. Do you have the ability to see these texts and pictures? WW is offering to go to OM farm to get straw for our chicken coop. I said I would rather just buy some elsewhere. I am not sure if I should have just kept my mouth shut and let her go get it. Why don't you let her go and then follow her there and catch her?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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How do I know when I have enough evidence to expose?
A Pink Floyd line just popped into my head:
"The evidence before me is incontrovertible, there's no need for the jury to retire." You need evidence that she is having an affair.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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ML, her levity shows that someone is meeting her EN, NOT me.
I do now have ability to see communication and pics since about 4am today.
I can't follow and catch because I would have the twins, and the approach to the farm is wide open and I would not have surprise ability.
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By that I meant she in not in a mental place to work on M, thus, counselling would be a waste of time and money at the least, and a major catastrophe at the worst. Visiting any marriage counselor is a waste of time because they have no earthly idea how to save a marriage. Did you not want to use Marriage Builders? The reason Dr Harley created Marriage Builders is because MC does not work so he developed a program that does work. I am concerned bc I have seen MC discussed a few times on this thread, despite the posts telling you how dangerous it would be for your M. Now it seems like you're putting it on the back burner until your WW is in the right "place" to work on the M? I didn't see an acknowledgement to ML's last post to you. Listen, even if you expose and end the A, the MC could be a potential disaster. Counselors have no idea how to recover from an affair and typically support wayward mentalities. I have seen this here on the forum and IRL. A MC (a Christian counselor btw) told me and my exWH that stringent EPs didn't need to be a focus since it was clear to her that my ex WH was "sorry" and "didn't want this to happen again". Which is the exact OPPOSITE advice needed. And he went on to cheat again due to lack of EPs.
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Thank you for your concern. Please be assured that the information that Brain hurts shared has fully sunk in. When we seek counselling it will be phone counselling here.
WW was texting OM while we played boccee with the kids. She just texted " I can't wait to be in your arms again" "I miss you so much"
Apparently emoticons don't show on webwatcher, since there were several txt that just said "this may be a picture, if it is, look in the photo section"
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OM just said "I can't wait either it's already been too long."
I'm walking away from this now to spend some more QT with the kids. I'll let the BS pile up for a while to keep my cool
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Thank you for your concern. Please be assured that the information that Brain hurts shared has fully sunk in. When we seek counselling it will be phone counselling here. Just so you know, many of us have done the program on our own using hte books, the workbooks and the radio show. We can help you recover and if you find you can't do it on your own, you could use the professional services here. My H and I went through the MB program in 2007 but many people have done a good job on their own so you have options. WW was texting OM while we played boccee with the kids. She just texted " I can't wait to be in your arms again" "I miss you so much" Keep it coming, that is enough to expose but i bet you get better evidence today and tomorrow. Apparently emoticons don't show on webwatcher, since there were several txt that just said "this may be a picture, if it is, look in the photo section" Did you look in the photo section? There shhould be a place where you can see the pictures.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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ML, thanks for the ongoing support. We did it on our own last time but WW didn't want to do all the questionnaires. (red flag #1.)
Nothing in photos, and WW has a habit of just sending emoticons sometimes.
I hope to get more solid stuff re: sex abuse convictions, but I will move ahead with exposure either way once I get some stronger evidence.
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ML, thanks for the ongoing support. We did it on our own last time but WW didn't want to do all the questionnaires. (red flag #1.) When you were here before, the board members didn't understand the MB program. You weren't helped with affair proofing your marriage, for example. The board is completely different today so the quality of advice will be much improved, I promise you. I hope to get more solid stuff re: sex abuse convictions, but I will move ahead with exposure either way once I get some stronger evidence. Great!! And bravo to you for getting the spyware in place!
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I know I should expose to the twins, but I am not sure how to do it. Even though they are only 6, DD already saw that OM and WW acted like a couple. It breaks my heart.
I made a list of prime exposure contacts last night. I will start drafting my exposure letter.
I already spoke with our pastor a bit about this situation. I am wondering if I should blast out the exposure message to the list, and simultaneously expose the A to pastor in a meeting with WW. Would that be too much of an ambush? My reason for this thinking is that if she knows the church knows about A, she might stop going. If I expose with him, he can help steer her back into the fold.
Just trying to get my plan in order.
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Read this and listen to the radio clips. Dr. Harley recommends to expose to as young as 4 years old. Exposing to Children
FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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I know I should expose to the twins, but I am not sure how to do it. Even though they are only 6, DD already saw that OM and WW acted like a couple. It breaks my heart. You would simply tell them the truth. Explain to them that adultery is immoral and tell them how it is bad. Tell them how much it has hurt you. I made a list of prime exposure contacts last night. I will start drafting my exposure letter. Are you using the templates and directions from the Exposure 101 thread in my link? What about the OM's friends and family? I already spoke with our pastor a bit about this situation. I am wondering if I should blast out the exposure message to the list, and simultaneously expose the A to pastor in a meeting with WW. Would that be too much of an ambush? My reason for this thinking is that if she knows the church knows about A, she might stop going. If I expose with him, he can help steer her back into the fold.
Just trying to get my plan in order. Use the procedures lined out in the exposure 101 thread. you should expose the affair ALONE to the pastor and ask him to speak to your wife. What exactly od you mean when you say "blast out the xposure message" to the list? Did you read the exposure 101 thread?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I did read exposure 101, but will reread it tonight. I meant I would send individual exposure letters to each person on the list. By blast I meant all in one sitting. I realize it sounded like I would send a group text or something.
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I did read exposure 101, but will reread it tonight. I meant I would send individual exposure letters to each person on the list. By blast I meant all in one sitting. I realize it sounded like I would send a group text or something. Gotcha! thanks for clarifying. Do you have a list of his contacts yet? Does he have a facebook page?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Read the 101 thread again... getting up to speed.
OM doesn't have FB account. His online rep is ruined at google results #2 and #3, documenting his violent crimes. I guess WW reading glasses are fogged.
I have snail mail addresses for OM's mother, two daughters, and his business. I have a list of other relatives from Been verified, but I am not sure how accurate it is. OM is divorced. Should I expose to OM XW?
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A few evening texts, one is scaring me a bit:
OM: I miss u I'm drying these beans all by myself
WW: I wish I could of been there with you ⭐
OM: I miss u so much
WW: I miss you too! I can't wait to be in your arms again...
OM: It's already been to long I can't wait either
WW: I just got a strong feeling that BS is reading our texts. 15 minutes after our last texts he acted very different to me.
OM:R u surprised I told u. Tell him to come see me
WW:Not necessarily the best option
OM:Your right most of the time
WHAT? He wants her to tell me to come see him in all his felonious glory, and all she can say is not necessarily the best option? WHAT?
I need to expose asap. I am now more worried than ever about this jerk.
All I have for evidence now are text logs. I don't think I can distribute that for exposure.
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Read the 101 thread again... getting up to speed.
OM doesn't have FB account. His online rep is ruined at google results #2 and #3, documenting his violent crimes. I guess WW reading glasses are fogged.
I have snail mail addresses for OM's mother, two daughters, and his business. I have a list of other relatives from Been verified, but I am not sure how accurate it is. OM is divorced. Should I expose to OM XW? Is his Mother and family on Facebook?
FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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After you expose you can confront OM. Read this "I encourage BHs to confront OM" Dr. Harley Did you read the exposing to Children thread?
FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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His mother is 80, not sure about FB for her. I have FB for one daughter.
I have no desire to confront this man.
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Uh oh.
I started exposure inadvertently by FB mssg to OM D. I followed with emails to all of WW family and friends so that trickle effect wouldn't happen. I am confident that evidence available will be enough for WW family. Only facili-SIL knows about A currently. They will be deeply concerned about OM past, and our welfare.
I was simply trying to create a draft and off it went. I attribute it to lack of sleep.
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From now on, draft in ms word. What did you send?
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I sent a personalized form of this to each of WW targets. I omitted the convictions part and modified the wording slightly for OM D. I did draft in docs, but instead of saving draft FB message for later, I hit send.
Dear (friends and family )
I am writing you this message because you are an important person in the lives of (WW) and I. As some of you may know, we have been going through some marriage trouble. (WW) has told me that she is no longer in love with me, which has shattered my heart. To my shock, I am saddened to have discovered that the reason she does not want to try to fix our marriage is because she has been carrying on an affair with her new employer. He is the Grandfather of DD's friend. He is also a violent convicted felon and sexual abuser. She has denied the severity of these convictions, which were upheld upon appeal. She has allowed our children to be near this man, even allowing DS to ride with him in a tractor.
She refuses to acknowledge the affair. I still love (WW) and I want our marriage to recover from this affair. If you have any influence on (WW), please do what you can to get her to stop this dangerous affair. I want to stay married, but the affair must end. Our children are being affected by this infidelity, and have picked up on the inappropriate nature of her relationship with OM.
As our friends and family, I am asking that you use your influence with (WW) to persuade her to end her affair and try to work on our marriage. Our marriage can be salvaged if she would only end the affair. Please support her in doing the right thing. Please support our marriage.
I would so appreciate your support and prayers.
Warmest regards,
(BH)
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I did not send to facila-SIL, which is likely why WW has not reacted yet. Her other siblings are likely conferring on the best course of action.
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I sent a personalized form of this to each of WW targets. I omitted the convictions part and modified the wording slightly for OM D. I did draft in docs, but instead of saving draft FB message for later, I hit send.
Dear (friends and family )
I am writing you this message because you are an important person in the lives of (WW) and I. As some of you may know, we have been going through some marriage trouble. (WW) has told me that she is no longer in love with me, which has shattered my heart. To my shock, I am saddened to have discovered that the reason she does not want to try to fix our marriage is because she has been carrying on an affair with her new employer. He is the Grandfather of DD's friend. He is also a violent convicted felon and sexual abuser. She has denied the severity of these convictions, which were upheld upon appeal. She has allowed our children to be near this man, even allowing DS to ride with him in a tractor.
She refuses to acknowledge the affair. I still love (WW) and I want our marriage to recover from this affair. If you have any influence on (WW), please do what you can to get her to stop this dangerous affair. I want to stay married, but the affair must end. Our children are being affected by this infidelity, and have picked up on the inappropriate nature of her relationship with OM.
As our friends and family, I am asking that you use your influence with (WW) to persuade her to end her affair and try to work on our marriage. Our marriage can be salvaged if she would only end the affair. Please support her in doing the right thing. Please support our marriage.
I would so appreciate your support and prayers.
Warmest regards,
(BH) Did you put his NAME in there?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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If you have not told these people the NAME of this dirtbag, I would get do that now. Finish your exposures today. I would also personally CALL her parents, close family and friends and ask them to follow up and speak to her. Ask them for their support. You should also speak to your children today. Send exposure letters to his family via snail mail. Can you afford to overnight them? What about the workplace? Is there anyone to expose to there? When she finds out you have exposed and comes after you, I would DEMAND that she end her affair and never see or speak to the OM again. Tell her your children are never to be exposed to him again even if you have to get a court order. You need to be very clear and very FIRM about this. Ask her to send him a no contact letter TODAY: My advice is to write a final letter in a way that the victimized spouse would agree to send it. It should begin with a statement of how selfish it was to cause those they loved so much pain, and while marital reconciliation cannot completely repay the offense, it's the right thing to do. A statement should be made about how much the unfaithful spouse cares about his spouse and family, and for their protection, has decided to completely end the relationship with the lover. He or she has promised never to see or communicate with the lover again in life, and asks the lover to respect that promise. Nothing should be said about how much the lover will be missed. After the letter is written, the victimized spouse should read and approve it before it is sent. [from SAA, pg 58] OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.
Sincerely, XXXXX
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I thought the forum was anonymous. I changed all entries in parentheses, including OM name.
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We went to church together, and then shopping. She still doesn't know about exposure. I spoke with her siblings, and they are working on a conference call for this afternoon.
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She now knows. Sisters are coming here to talk
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I thought the forum was anonymous. I changed all entries in parentheses, including OM name. This is what you appear to have written: "...because she has been carrying on an affair with her new employer. He is the Grandfather of DD's friend. He is also a violent convicted felon and sexual abuser..." That's all you appear to have written about him. There are no parentheses in that section, so where did you put his name?
BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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She now knows. Sisters are coming here to talk Talking to HER? If anyone asks for the evidence, tell them you have been having them watched and they are having an affair.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I put full name at end of third paragraph. Targets have the details.
W admitted to an EA, but then clarified that it was actually a non sexual PA.
I am not asking questions and did not probe for that. I am adamantly stating that NC starts today. She blocked him on phone. We will send NC letter after her sisters leave. It's hard with the twins. I did not expose to them yet but will be doing so asap.
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I put full name at end of third paragraph. Targets have the details.
W admitted to an EA, but then clarified that it was actually a non sexual PA. A lie. The texts referred to "in your arms again." That is physical. I am not asking questions and did not probe for that. I am adamantly stating that NC starts today. She blocked him on phone. We will send NC letter after her sisters leave. It's hard with the twins. I did not expose to them yet but will be doing so asap. How far do you live from his home and workplace?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Go tell her that now is the time to come clean, holding nothing back. Tell her you have evidence it was physical and that your marriage cannot recover unless she is completely honest. A marriage cannot recover based on lies.
If she won't tell you the truth, tell her you will need her to take a polygraph. She owes you the full truth.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Her mother and three sister just came to take her out to talk. NC letter will happen today. Honesty will come today.
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Sisters know txt content. We live 1 mile from den of iniquity
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Sisters know txt content. Good! We live 1 mile from den of iniquity You do realize you are going to have to move, right? She will be perpetually triggered and you will be dealing with this for YEARS unless you move.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67
The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.
These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.
Checklist for How Affairs Should End
_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.
_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.
_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.
_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:
_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).
_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).
_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).
_____Spend leisure time together.
_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.
_____Avoid overnight separation.
_____Allow technical accountability.
_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Are there opportunities for workplace exposure? Is there an HR department?
Have you finished all your exposures? What about your kids?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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OM owns the company and, if I'm not wrong, it's only 1 or 2 other people including WW.
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She needs to quit her job.
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She will quit job in the NC letter we send this evening.
We will sell our house and get the heck out of town, moving closer to her family.
Her sisters gave her a serious dose of reality. Off to work on the NC letter.
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What about her assertion that the A was not physical? I can assure that it was.
And what about exposure to the children?
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She will quit job in the NC letter we send this evening. Has she agreed to 100% NC? Meaning she will never return to the workplace again?
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From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67
The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.
These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.
Checklist for How Affairs Should End
_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.
_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.
_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.
_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:
_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).
_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).
_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).
_____Spend leisure time together.
_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.
_____Avoid overnight separation.
_____Allow technical accountability.
_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends. Since your WW is a multiple offender, please take these EPs extremely seriously. None of these should be skimmed over. How did your WWs first affair start? Was that also with a coworker?
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She will not return to work. She is changing phone number tomorrow. She has agreed to 100% NC. We are working on NC letter tonight. Since txt was primary mode of communication, it will be the last text sent from her old number tomorrow.
We read through the EP list together, and will start work immediately. I am calling to schedule a phone session tomorrow.
Her EA statement was corrected quickly, but she says it was a non sexual physical affair. I will press on the topic as step 1 of the EP list. STD testing will need to be done either way, I think.
Her first affair was with a mutual friend.
She is now a weeping apologetic person. Sorry for what she did to our family, and sorry the A is ending.
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Her first affair was with a mutual friend. How did that affair end? Did either of you ever see the friend again? Did he live nearby? Did he remain in your circle of friends?
BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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And what about exposure to the children?
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The first affair ended through exposure. It was much more deeply entrenched. It took a while to get myself on track and find evidence then. NC was fairly soon after exposure, and was complete. He lived in a different town, so separation was complete. The whole ordeal took nearly a year.
This time, the ordeal was less than a month. The problem is, we have to drive by OM farm to go anywhere, and OM drives equipment past our house frequently. It will be harder to get OM out of our circle, so to speak.
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The kids handled exposure better than expected. They were relieved to hear that WW was not continuing the inappropriate relationship with OM. The had both picked up the negativity in our M and were likely blaming themselves.
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Go tell her that now is the time to come clean, holding nothing back. Tell her you have evidence it was physical and that your marriage cannot recover unless she is completely honest. A marriage cannot recover based on lies.
If she won't tell you the truth, tell her you will need her to take a polygraph. She owes you the full truth. We talked until late last night. We went over the EP requirements, and began to work on them. The first order of operation is to establish radical honesty. She did not give me an honest answer to my question about the nature of the A. I have information to support that, but I do not want her to know what the information is at this time. She is still discussing things with facili-SIL, who lacks a moral compass. I will insist on an open policy with her communications starting today so that she can't continue to lead a dual life. When discussing the NC last night, after I thought we were on the same page, she said "what about our garlic planter, I should go get our garlic planter." Clearly, the concept hadn't sunk in yet at that time. After further discussion, she now gets it. ( I hope) I will press on the issue of radical honesty, and will let her know if she can't give straight answers a polygraph will be needed.
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This time, the ordeal was less than a month. The problem is, we have to drive by OM farm to go anywhere, and OM drives equipment past our house frequently. It will be harder to get OM out of our circle, so to speak. No, it won't be harder, it will be impossible unless you move. You have to make a choice, do you want to be married or do you want to live there. You absolutely cannot stay where you are and recover your marriage. You will be dealing with this affair for years and will finally divorce if you don't move. ...........this radio clip with Dr Bill Harley is the typical outcome when a couple does not move away from the OP. This WH, Bob, and his OW lived a mile apart and the affair has been on and off for 3 1/2 years. The BW is now divorcing him and their little boy is severely depressed. This is what happens when one ignores Dr Harley's recommendations for NO CONTACT FOR LIFE. We have seen this happen over and over again on the SAA board over the years. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2716http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2717http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2718
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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How contact should be ended: My advice is to write a final letter in a way that the victimized spouse would agree to send it. It should begin with a statement of how selfish it was to cause those they loved so much pain, and while marital reconciliation cannot completely repay the offense, it's the right thing to do. A statement should be made about how much the unfaithful spouse cares about his spouse and family, and for their protection, has decided to completely end the relationship with the lover. He or she has promised never to see or communicate with the lover again in life, and asks the lover to respect that promise. Nothing should be said about how much the lover will be missed. After the letter is written, the victimized spouse should read and approve it before it is sent. [from SAA, pg 58] OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.
Sincerely, XXXXX
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Thanks Mel, I am not fighting to stay here at all. It will be a daunting task to minimize and move a full scale blacksmith shop, but that pales in comparison to the work we have to save M.
I requested and was begrudgingly granted access to her phone. I looked at her late night text telling SIL about my request for details and her dishonest answer. The panic emoticon said it all. I reestablished the requirements for radical honesty, and explained what that means.
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Thanks Mel, I am not fighting to stay here at all. It will be a daunting task to minimize and move a full scale blacksmith shop, but that pales in comparison to the work we have to save M. I understand completely. I requested and was begrudgingly granted access to her phone. I looked at her late night text telling SIL about my request for details and her dishonest answer. The panic emoticon said it all. I reestablished the requirements for radical honesty, and explained what that means. Some of the critical extraordinary precautions are eliminating all avenues of contact. That would mean getting a new phone #, email address, eliminating social media, etc. Have you gone over all this with her? She needs to ELIMINATE any avenue of direct access. This is not of immediate concern, but it is pretty obvious your wife has poor boundaries around men and probably has opposite sex friendships. This is HOW affairs start. Can you rent out your home and move away? There are many ways to get out of there. For example, you could rent a place 45 minutes away, move there and drive to your blacksmith shop for work. I don't know if that would work, but I would start brainstorming solutions NOW so you can get out of there.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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We have established more boundaries. The phone number will be changed in a couple of hours. We need to go to the bank within the hour to deposit 2 paychecks since they are under the table, and WW has no proof she worked. Once the deposit is made, the NC letter will go out, then the number will change.
She has reliably handed me the phone each time she has received a text. She has blocked OM, deleted contact, and deleted text thread.
We have discussed the nature of the A, and the timing. After fits and starts, I believe WW understands the policy of radical honesty. It started when he kissed her and she reciprocated the first week of her job (~9/28) It progressed from that point gradually, and became physical by the end of the second week. It increased in intensity to the point of mutual gratification a week later, and then oral. I stopped her at that point, gave her a list of required labs, and asked her to call her doctor for an exam.
On the home front, we have zero savings, and are income limited since she is no longer working. We live in the boonies, and our property is not really rentable. I am making the address change a priority, but it will take time. I do not make income as a blacksmith any more, and I will need to liquidate some of the equipment and materials in order to even show the place. This is a sad but necessary outcome of the A. My children love working in the shop, and have been swinging hammers since they were two.
I know I am singing the blues here, but it will be hard to make a quick exit from this "homestead". I will find every available option to make it happen as quickly as possible. In the meantime we are developing strategies to avoid triggers and inadvertent contact.
We have discussed her boundaries, and will work on that in our coaching sessions.
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You are doing great and I was cheering until I got to this point:
"boundaries, and will work on that in our coaching sessions."
What is a coaching session?? And why do you need a "coaching session" to establish boundaries?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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You are doing great and I was cheering until I got to this point:
"boundaries, and will work on that in our coaching sessions."
What is a coaching session?? And why do you need a "coaching session" to establish boundaries? If you are talking about MB phone coaching with Steve or Jen, I can tell you that I have had experience with both and also talking to Dr Harley on the radio show, as well as doing the online program. Since your WW is a serial/multiple cheater, your best bet is to eliminate any opportunity for a SSL and for affairs. That means that on top of the EP list you were provided from SAA, you spend all of your free time together and you probably want to look very closely at any type of job for your WW - probably will be best for her to avoid jobs were she is working closely, one on one or for long hours with men. That is the advice I got from Dr Harley, so I would recommend you write to him on the radio show, outline the 2 affairs your WW has had with the close friend and then the coworker and be sure to point out how quickly the affair happened after she hadn't been in the workforce and how quickly it progressed. I'm not sure that you will be that same advice from his kids from my own experience. And your M cannot afford any more affairs.
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I will consider the phone swap.
Isn't the marriage builders phone counselling called coaching?
We don't need help to establish boundries. We might need help figuring out why WW has trouble with boundries.
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I will consider the phone swap.
Isn't the marriage builders phone counselling called coaching? Thanks for clarifying! I was getting concerned. But you don't need to go to coaching to develop boundaries. You can follow Dr Harley's checklist. We don't need help to establish boundries. We might need help figuring out why WW has trouble with boundries. She has trouble with boundaries because she does not observe them. She needs to observe proper boundaries. That will solve the problem. She needs to END all opposite sex friendships and stop having personal conversations with men.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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We don't need help to establish boundries. We might need help figuring out why WW has trouble with boundries. She has trouble because it feels good to get her ENs met by other men outside of the M. It's really as simple as that. I talked to Dr Harley about this EXACT issue with my ex, and he gave me the same answer that he has on this site. Spending time on the "why" is a big waste of your time and will not help you to recover the marriage. Waywards love to go to counseling to talk about the WHY vs actually putting EPs into place.
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Thanks SusieQ for this info on the coaching. I have had a solo session with Steven, which helped a lot with Plan B last time. I will write to Dr. Harley, and will extend the EP list as suggested. We are currently watching the infidelity video on the MB site. When we are done I will discuss the "extra" layers of protection that will be required.
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I have taken another day off work for more discussions and rebuilding. Yesterday we spent all day together, with Halloween parties for kids, a walk in the woods midday, and trick or treating at night. We stayed up late talking and watching MB videos, then held each other as we fell asleep.
WW will be tested today for STD, one of hurdles to rebuilding intimacy.
Tomorrow I will work, and WW will got to a MOPS meeting at church and will spend the rest of the day with an informed female church friend.
Webwatcher is still in stealth mode.
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I have taken another day off work for more discussions and rebuilding. Yesterday we spent all day together, with Halloween parties for kids, a walk in the woods midday, and trick or treating at night. We stayed up late talking and watching MB videos, then held each other as we fell asleep.
WW will be tested today for STD, one of hurdles to rebuilding intimacy.
Tomorrow I will work, and WW will got to a MOPS meeting at church and will spend the rest of the day with an informed female church friend.
Webwatcher is still in stealth mode. Good job! And a word of warning, your spyware should stay in stealth mode forever. FOREVER. Radical honesty does not apply to spy resources.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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NC letter was sent.
OM, I want you to know that out of respect for my husband and children I have realized that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel and selfish act that my family did not deserve. While I can't completely repay my husband for the pain I have caused him, I will make sure that this will not happen again. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.
10 minutes before she sent it, I stopped at farm to retrieve our garlic planter, see OM face to face, and request final paycheck. I got the planter unobserved, and did not see anyone. I heard a tractor so I drove to back of barn, got out and said "Are you OM? I am WW husband. I came to get garlic planter and WW final paycheck."
He said she was on direct deposit. Unfortunately WW went on the books last week. I said "Thank you. Please do not contact WW again." He pointed at me threateningly, and said "Don't tell me what to do." I said, "I am simply making a request that you will also hear directly from her." Then I drove off.
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Was that an actual letter or do you mean text? I don't think this OM will take a text seriously at all.
Who was exposed to on the OM side?
I'm really worried that there will be more d-days in your future until you get out of there.
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Was that an actual letter or do you mean text? I don't think this OM will take a text seriously at all. It should have been hand-written by your wife, and checked and sent, or emailed, by you.
BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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10 minutes before she sent it, sent it? How did she send it? Did you witness the sending?
BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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She will not return to work. She is changing phone number tomorrow. She has agreed to 100% NC. We are working on NC letter tonight. Since txt was primary mode of communication, it will be the last text sent from her old number tomorrow. If this is what happened, he's not going to take the NCL seriously and if your WW refuses to send a letter, shes probably not serious either.
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She sent it via text,the only form of communication they had except face to face. She can send it in writing as well. I watched her send it. I saw the delivery confirmation on WW.
Phone number will be changed today.
We are sitting at clinic for testing.
We have planned and utilize alternate routes to avoid OM house and farm.
PA kissing happened at farm several times. SC oral occurred at OM house 3 times at lunch, most recently last thursday. No Intercourse occurred.
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She is completely willing to send in writing, and was simply following my (poor) suggestion to send via txt since that is how they communicated.
I understand now that written would be more personal. We will have to drive past OM house after clinic to get address. We will also send to farm.
I could only target OM mom and daughter. OM is sole proprietor with only a few employees. No social media active according to been verified. I got no response from daughter, and snail mail perhaps arriving today for mother.
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PA kissing happened at farm several times. SC oral occurred at OM house 3 times at lunch, most recently last thursday. No Intercourse occurred. Unfortunately many WS will trickle truth their BS's. She started by saying this was a non PA and has escalated to physical but no intercourse - again, this is normal. I'm sorry to tell you that I don't believe her. I think the only way you will be able to know for sure is by poly. The thing that usually keeps an A from being full blown PA is if there is no opportunity = the affairees don't have access to each other, i.e. An online affair. But here, there was ample opportunity. Did she ever admit the first affair was a full blown PA or did she trickle truth out in that case as well?
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We have planned and utilize alternate routes to avoid OM house and farm. The problem is if she is by herself, there is nothing to stop her from going over there. You cannot trust her to have the self-control not to go there. That is not the way NC works. It is the opposite, if she has opportunity you should expect for her to be very tempted and the likelihood of broken NC to be very high. I'm sorry to be a Debbie Downer and the only reason I am pointing these things out is that I don't want you to keep getting hit by the dday train.
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The problem is if she is by herself, there is nothing to stop her from going over there. You cannot trust her to have the self-control not to go there. I would have to agree. Something that stood out to me is that she has had an affair before, and it took her less than 1 week to start this affair with OM. Get a poly. It will help her know that you expect 100 transparency now and forever. ETA: Considering that it was less than a week, I would also ask in the poly about any other affairs you don't know about. Wouldn't surprise me.
Last edited by DidntQuit; 11/01/16 06:53 PM. Reason: afterthought
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PA kissing happened at farm several times. SC oral occurred at OM house 3 times at lunch, most recently last thursday. No Intercourse occurred. Unfortunately many WS will trickle truth their BS's. She started by saying this was a non PA and has escalated to physical but no intercourse - again, this is normal. I'm sorry to tell you that I don't believe her. I think the only way you will be able to know for sure is by poly. The thing that usually keeps an A from being full blown PA is if there is no opportunity = the affairees don't have access to each other, i.e. An online affair. But here, there was ample opportunity. Did she ever admit the first affair was a full blown PA or did she trickle truth out in that case as well? She asked me to sit in (awkward) on std exam yesterday. Doctor said she was not sexually active and had to go get smaller equipment. We have had intercourse only once in last year. She did not trickle last time, after realizing that full disclosure was essential to my agreement to save M. Shortly after DDAY I had the whole truth.
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Handwritten NC letter has been mailed. WW wrote it and I didn't have to change anything.
OM, I am writing to you so that you know the relationship I had with you has ended. It was thoughtless and selfish. It hurt many people, particularly my husband and kids, who did not deserve to be treated that way. I am committed to my marriage and determined to make up for all the hurt I've caused my family. I love my family deeply and will no longer do anything to risk their happiness. I will not be contacting you and ask that you do the same. I do not want to see or hear from you. Please respect my decision to end our relationship and have no further contact.
Thank you,
WW
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BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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We put it in box together, but it is our roadside box. Now I am having concerns that it will be changed. WW sister (not facili-SIL ) told her it sounded like I wrote it. I spoke with her. She said WW should say she no longer has feeling for OM. I said letter should not be empathetic in any way.
She was supposed to go to MOPS today, but she said she was too emotional. Now I am at work and she is home alone with a spurned rapist around the corner.
She has been on phone with sister for a long time.
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We put it in box together, but it is our roadside box. Now I am having concerns that it will be changed. WW sister (not facili-SIL ) told her it sounded like I wrote it. I spoke with her. She said WW should say she no longer has feeling for OM. I said letter should not be empathetic in any way. Just leave it as is. The letter was written by Dr Harley. She was supposed to go to MOPS today, but she said she was too emotional. Now I am at work and she is home alone with a spurned rapist around the corner.
She has been on phone with sister for a long time. Just know that every time you leave is an opportunity for her to see him. It will drive you crazy.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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forged, I want to applaud you for stepping up! You have a long way to go to save this, but you have bravely taken the right steps. I would spend all your focus on moving because you won't be in recovery until that happens.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I am okay with her modifying the letter a little bit . It will be mailed today either way. I will approve the wording and we will mail it together. I do not want her to say I made her do it, or put the words in her mouth. She needs to feel it, say it, and send it for it to mean anything. She understands that my approval and the deadline are set in stone.
After Brits_Brat gave real court info, I honestly think WW is afraid of OM. Seeing the facts on NYS letterhead (all three pages) had a profound effect.
We are searching for options to make a quick exit from town. We will get a new car for WW to increase stealth in the meantime.
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I am okay with her modifying the letter a little bit . It will be mailed today either way. I will approve the wording and we will mail it together. I thought you said it had already been written and placed in the post box. You are not being very clear here.
BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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I am okay with her modifying the letter a little bit . It will be mailed today either way. I will approve the wording and we will mail it together. I do not want her to say I made her do it, or put the words in her mouth. She needs to feel it, say it, and send it for it to mean anything. She understands that my approval and the deadline are set in stone.  Any time the WS wants to deviate from what Dr Harley has written, that is a red flag. There is NO reason to change it, period. No, she doesn't need to "feel it" in order for it to "mean anything". Most WS probably don't mean it since they are still in a state of fog when the NC is sent. But it is part of just compensation and there is no reason to deviate. Red flags being thrown up here.
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After Brits_Brat gave real court info, I honestly think WW is afraid of OM. Seeing the facts on NYS letterhead (all three pages) had a profound effect. While that sounds nice, I wouldn't count on it. We have had WSs have affairs with dangerous people and also expose their children to said dangerous people and they don't just "wake up". True NC (not present here) and getting away might accomplish somewhat that but this OM will always be a threat to your M. Please don't deviate from what MB teaches. The A is like an addiction and your WW will be tempted, period.
Last edited by SusieQ; 11/02/16 12:08 PM.
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We are searching for options to make a quick exit from town. We will get a new car for WW to increase stealth in the meantime. That's good that you're looking to make a quick exit. I would take it a step further than getting a new car and just try not to leave your WW alone as much as humanly possible. She will be tempted. It's not just the OM that you need to protect her from (giving her a hidden vehicle) - it goes both ways.
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I'm seeing the red flags and am driving home now. Om daughter got the message today she says she has no influence over her father but that she is incredibly disappointed I am concerned that she will speak to him and increase irrational Behavior so I am going home to be with WW.
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she is incredibly disappointed I am concerned that she will speak to him and increase irrational Behavior so I am going home to be with WW. Your WW is "disappointed" that you don't trust her? I don't understand what you are saying.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I am concerned that the daughter will speak to om causing an irrational outburst. We put the envelope in the mailbox this morning our pickup is in the afternoon after talking with WW, I realized that her sister convinced her to modify the letter. WW told me she wanted to change it and said she would wait until I got home to send it
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I called WW's enabler sister tonight to inform her of my concerns. She knows about the A (but didn't offer any info), but she knew nothing about the crimes. Is this the sister that your W is getting advice regarding NCL from? Someone you called an enabler? She needs to discuss recovery of this marriage with you and stop talking to the sister.
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SusieQ, the SIL in quotes is Facili-SIL. SIL today is not enabler, but still thinks this is about feelings and closure.
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I am concerned that the daughter will speak to om causing an irrational outburst. We put the envelope in the mailbox this morning our pickup is in the afternoon after talking with WW, I realized that her sister convinced her to modify the letter. WW told me she wanted to change it and said she would wait until I got home to send it I am sooo confused. Why would your DD speak to the OM? How would she have any contact?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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SusieQ, the SIL in quotes is Facili-SIL. SIL today is not enabler, but still thinks this is about feelings and closure. The SIL needs to butt out and stay out of this. She has no earthly idea what she is doing.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I am concerned that the daughter will speak to om causing an irrational outburst. We put the envelope in the mailbox this morning our pickup is in the afternoon after talking with WW, I realized that her sister convinced her to modify the letter. WW told me she wanted to change it and said she would wait until I got home to send it I am sooo confused. Why would your DD speak to the OM? How would she have any contact? I think he means the OM's DD that he exposed to is going to confront OM and then OM will then do something.
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SusieQ, the SIL in quotes is Facili-SIL. SIL today is not enabler, but still thinks this is about feelings and closure. Did you hear this NCL advice from the SIL yourself?? Because wanting closure is wayward speak.
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Thanks SusiQ That is it exactly. OM's daughter just got the message, and likely will confront OM> I wanted to be here in case that happens. I took off work tomorrow too.
WW added one line to the above letter, and I do not object.
"I have given this a lot of thought, and my feelings for you have changed. I am committed to my marriage..."
I know it is not the stock letter, but it is not adding any sorrow or regret to the mix, simply stating a fact.
I did hear this directly from SIL about closure. It does sound like WW speak. She also said that WW should unblock OM to see what he says. I pointedly explained that this is a "no contact" letter, and that this is a deal breaker if it doesn't happen properly.
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She also said that WW should unblock OM to see what he says. Yikes. That's the opposite of what you want. This SIL needs to get out of the picture, pronto.
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I did hear this directly from SIL about closure. It does sound like WW speak. She also said that WW should unblock OM to see what he says. I pointedly explained that this is a "no contact" letter, and that this is a deal breaker if it doesn't happen properly. 
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Have you told your children?
FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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Another setback. WW discovered web watcher due to a software glitch. She was upset. She didn't demand that I remove it but made it clear it was a problem. This has not been a good day. I know the flags that this throws.
She said that she was upset that I lied to her after we agreed to radical honesty. When she aked if I was reading her texts, I said no.
I pointed out that I hadn't betrayed her, and that I had caught lies since d-day, such as severity of PA details. It was a back and forth that went nowhere fast.
I offered to install it on my phone as well, but ended up uninstalling it from hers.
I don't feel good about this at all.
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The kids handled exposure better than expected. They were relieved to hear that WW was not continuing the inappropriate relationship with OM. The had both picked up the negativity in our M and were likely blaming themselves. The kids know.
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That is the advice I got from Dr Harley, so I would recommend you write to him on the radio show, outline the 2 affairs your WW has had with the close friend and then the coworker and be sure to point out how quickly the affair happened after she hadn't been in the workforce and how quickly it progressed. I've looked around here, and don't see how to write in to Dr Harley on the radio show. Can you please steer me in the right direction.
Last edited by Forgedfe; 11/02/16 07:15 PM.
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Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.
FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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Another setback. WW discovered web watcher due to a software glitch. She was upset. She didn't demand that I remove it but made it clear it was a problem. This has not been a good day. I know the flags that this throws.
She said that she was upset that I lied to her after we agreed to radical honesty. When she aked if I was reading her texts, I said no.
I pointed out that I hadn't betrayed her, and that I had caught lies since d-day, such as severity of PA details. It was a back and forth that went nowhere fast.
I offered to install it on my phone as well, but ended up uninstalling it from hers.
I don't feel good about this at all. Let her know that you will be watching her from now on AND WILL NOT TELL HER YOUR RESOURCES. THAT IS PRIVATE. You have a right to protect yourself from her destructive behavior. Stop acting like you did something wrong. You need to learn to be a better snooper. And STOP offering to put spyware on your phone, that is silly. you have not had an affair. Radical honesty DOES NOT APPLY TO ABUSE OR INFIDELITY.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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You just need to be a better snooper. That is the only thing wrong here.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Another setback. WW discovered web watcher due to a software glitch. She was upset. She didn't demand that I remove it but made it clear it was a problem. This has not been a good day. I know the flags that this throws.
She said that she was upset that I lied to her after we agreed to radical honesty. When she aked if I was reading her texts, I said no.
I pointed out that I hadn't betrayed her, and that I had caught lies since d-day, such as severity of PA details. It was a back and forth that went nowhere fast.
I offered to install it on my phone as well, but ended up uninstalling it from hers.
I don't feel good about this at all. Let her know that you will be watching her from now on AND WILL NOT TELL HER YOUR RESOURCES. THAT IS PRIVATE. You have a right to protect yourself from her destructive behavior. Stop acting like you did something wrong. You need to learn to be a better snooper. And STOP offering to put spyware on your phone, that is silly. you have not had an affair. Radical honesty DOES NOT APPLY TO ABUSE OR INFIDELITY. X100
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] I offered to install it on my phone as well, but ended up uninstalling it from hers. Did she get a new #? And do you have a plan to get more spyware on her phone?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67
The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.
These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.
Checklist for How Affairs Should End
_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.
_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.
_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.
_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:
_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).
_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).
_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).
_____Spend leisure time together.
_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.
_____Avoid overnight separation.
_____Allow technical accountability.
_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends. Did she agree to ALL the items on this list? Technical accountability means that she hides nothing from you on her devices. So having spyware on shouldn't upset her. I have to tell you Forged, this is classic for a serial cheater: They will show extreme remorse when caught, agree to everything that is asked of them and then will backslide over time. They cling to their IB and SSL (secret second lives). This is what Dr Harley talks about and this is what I experienced for myself. You need to be prepared for this reality and how you are going to handle it. Technical accountability is EASY compared to some of the other EPs so I am real worried about your situation.
Last edited by SusieQ; 11/03/16 09:34 AM.
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Another setback. WW discovered web watcher due to a software glitch. She was upset. She didn't demand that I remove it but made it clear it was a problem. This has not been a good day. I know the flags that this throws. It makes no sense that she would be upset about this unless she had something to hide. If reading her texts would clear her name, wouldn't that be a good thing? A guilty spouse always tries to condemn the BS for spying.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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And I am sorry to tell you that I googled the situation with the doctor basically commenting that they could tell how long it's been since your W had sex by physical examination and what I saw online is that is not true.
I have never heard of that and thought it sounded weird.
This renews those feelings I had about a poly. With your WW being a serial cheater and not admitting to a full blown PA, I would just make sure you have the 100% truth about this affair and making sure there are no others.
A poly is a good first step to eliminating your WW's SSL.
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The ware gave her a sync failure notification which caused discovery.
I understand that I did not have an affair, but my benign neglect led her to the point of her bad decision. I did not cause the affair, but I did not prevent it either.
She willingly shares her phone with me, and we compare to the log to see if anything was deleted.
BTW, ware delete was unsuccessful. She has stopped texting it appears. That is good since she has been getting bad advice regularly. I will let it ride as is.
I checked phone log back to the only other contact WW had with OM, a kids party with OM granddaughter. There was no record of text or call to or from his number, or any other unidentified number since that time, prior to the declared start of a.
Last edited by Forgedfe; 11/03/16 09:51 AM.
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I understand that I did not have an affair, but my benign neglect led her to the point of her bad decision. I did not cause the affair, but I did not prevent it either You have a real problem on your hands and it has nothing to do with neglect and everything to do with a WS who has HORRIBLE boundaries with the OS. Your WW's A with this OM took off very fast. That's not really normal. It IS normal for a serial cheater however. If RADICAL changes are not made, this WILL happen again.
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She willingly shares her phone with me, and we compare to the log to see if anything was deleted. The fact that she "willingly shares" the phone does not mean very much. You can do things on the phone that will not show up on any "log" but will show up on spyware. Your WW is well aware of this fact. Forged, you need to wake up here real fast.
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You can do things on the phone that will not show up on any "log" but will show up on spyware. Imessages do not show up on the "phone log". Third party messaging apps will not show on the phone log. Logging into social media and looking at the OM's page will not show up on the phone log. The list goes on and on. The fact that she does NOT want spyware in and of itself is a reason for alarm, Forged. You need to wake up and start listening to us instead of spinning this to make it seem better in your head.
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The ware gave her a sync failure notification which caused discovery.
I understand that I did not have an affair, but my benign neglect led her to the point of her bad decision. I did not cause the affair, but I did not prevent it either. Oh no. What led to her affair was her poor boundaries with men. If she had not allowed another man to meet her needs, this would have never happened. This will continue happening unless this is addressed and resolved. "Neglect" causes bad marriages, it does not cause affairs. She willingly shares her phone with me, and we compare to the log to see if anything was deleted. That is good! However, anything she "willingly shares" is suspect. You need to have spyware on her phone that she doesn;'t know about. Anything she knows about helps her hide. BTW, ware delete was unsuccessful. She has stopped texting it appears. That is good since she has been getting bad advice regularly. I will let it ride as is. Good! And of course you should not tell her this. Radical honesty does not apply to infidelity or abuse. I checked phone log back to the only other contact WW had with OM, a kids party with OM granddaughter. There was no record of text or call to or from his number, or any other unidentified number since that time, prior to the declared start of a. WHEN did this happen? Even a wetbrain can work around this. She can just go and meet him. She can call him from a landline, she can get an "affair phone."
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I understand that I did not have an affair, but my benign neglect led her to the point of her bad decision. I did not cause the affair, but I did not prevent it either. I would again assert that putting spyware on your phone completely misses the point. You have not had an affair. She is a SERIAL CHEATER.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I did not put ware on my phone. Please rest assured I am not spinning this, there is nothing good about this.
OM doesn't have a Facebook page, and didn't even know his criminal activity was online based on intercepted info on dday.
WW is not tech savvy, and has not cleared history or cache on computer. I am not sure she knows how. I will look at those things again this evening for accounts I don't recognize.
We do not have a landline, and I searched every inch of home and car for A phone, several times before dday and after.
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Is the webwatcher still in place?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Is the webwatcher still in place? In addition to this put a VAR in the house to see if she has a secret phone.
FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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VAR is how A#1 was busted. I will get a new smaller version tomorrow. Watcher is still watching. WW has not been texting. I gently demanded that she cease marital conversations with SIL and facili-SIL. We went over the EP checklist today, and she thought she was doing better than she really was. I pointed out that even though she has not to my knowledge contacted OM, she still listened to and considered advice from SIL that was contrary to the requirements of blocking communication and ensuring complete separation from OM.
I have made sure she was not alone all week, for safety and sanity. Tomorrow she is going to visit her mother while the kids are in school, since I have a Dr. appt and need to go to work.
Today, she produced a bag of tshirts, coats, hats and other rubbish that OM had given her. It went straight into the trash.
OM daughter responded to a question I asked the other day. I asked if she had mentioned to OM that she knew about A (because of my message) She said that OM had told her about the "ended" A before she read my message. I was surprised to hear that.
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OM daughter responded to a question I asked the other day. I asked if she had mentioned to OM that she knew about A (because of my message) She said that OM had told her about the "ended" A before she read my message. I was surprised to hear that. Your child has been exposed to the OM since you exposed?? How is that?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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OM's daughter, not Forged's.
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Mel, my lingo must be off since I keep messing up stuff about the daughter of the other man. My children have been under my direct supervision since dday.
My children were exposed to him the night of DD frieds party 8/13, and two other times.
WW does not use IM on phone. I have access to all apps, and none are installed, I think things are moving in the right direction, and var should confirm that.
I have become as worried about SIL bad advice as I am about OM being evil
Last edited by Forgedfe; 11/04/16 05:34 AM.
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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WW received text from OM today, despite being on blocked list. WW swore on bible that she did not unblock number. Somehow I had forgotten to change her number. It has been changed now.
I told WW that I saw text on online log. When I got home she handed me phone and said "read it, this is your fault, this is because you told his DD" I politely informed her that there would be no message if there was no A. I asked that she not blame me for her mistake. I told her the clock was reset, and further contact would prevent us from resolution of our marriage problems.
OM said "U Text me Tuesday and told me that already in now I got a letter today in the mail from you tell me the same thing now here's what I got to say if your a
hole husband ever contact one of my family membersor upsets my daughter again there's going to be big trouble and you know what I mean that's all I got to say"
Needless to say this resets the clock. It increases my urgency to get the heck out of dodge.
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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[{  }] Hanging my head in shame I made a mistake... and it set us back.
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[{ }] Hanging my head in shame I made a mistake... and it set us back. Were all the other things on the EP list completed and/or agreed to by your W?
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yes. I blocked myself on her phone tonight and texted her... Apparently it only blocks calls, since my text went through. That means om didn't text her until he got her letter.
Long day! First injection to fix my low T, and first contact by OM.
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And she said I could put Watcher back on her phone
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And she said I could put Watcher back on her phone A complete wasted resource. Anything spy resource she knows about is useless.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Mel, geolocate data will still be useful even if it is known. VAR will be installed today. She is going to go buy some supplies for a project. I should be able to catch contact then if it exists. In a few days I can offer to "delete" watcher.
How concerned should I be about the threat in his text? Is that sufficient to contact law enforcement?
Last edited by Forgedfe; 11/05/16 07:25 AM.
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Mel, geolocate data will still be useful even if it is known. How? If I know you have geolocate on my phone, I will leave my phone in a place you expect me to be or turn it off.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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She understands and has agreed to technical accountability. If she turns off her phone, it will show up as unreachable. If she leaves it, she will not be able to check in per our agreement. VAR in place and active today.
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She understands and has agreed to technical accountability. If she turns off her phone, it will show up as unreachable. If she leaves it, she will not be able to check in per our agreement. VAR in place and active today. How often does she check in? Every 5 minutes? He only lives a mile away.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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If she turns off her phone, it will show up as unreachable. How often are you checking? Every 5 minutes? And what if her phone goes out of order or something? "Sorry you couldn't reach me but my phone froze up and I couldn't get it started!!"
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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She is going to go buy some supplies for a project. It would be best if you guys set aside errands until you can do them together.
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She drove opposite direction confirmed by geo. She never turned her phone off, and checked in at destination.
VAR revealed that she listened to SAA chapter 7 and 8 while eating potato chips or other crunchy snack. No calls except to me from any phone.
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SusieQ, I wanted the chance to test VAR.
Last edited by Forgedfe; 11/05/16 02:27 PM.
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VAR will be in place for the week. WW will be stuck home with sick kids, they both have pink eye and croup.
Mel, I understand the much lower value of watcher now that it is known. One very important thing has happened though, she has broken her dependence on texting. She had over 2000 msg last cycle. She would txt facili-SIL as much as OM, so her head was constantly being filled with bad advice. She has stopped txt to all SILs and OM.
WW attitude has changed dramatically. She is remorseful and is striving to meet my EN. She made dinner last night for the first time in nearly 2 months.
When she visited her parents Friday, she was belittled, berated and shamed. That afternoon OM sent her the only txt to her phone since NC request. I accused and blamed her for unblocking, when in reality I didn't properly block by changing her number.
She has told me repeatedly that it is over, and she is fearful of OM. She has apologized for putting our family and our marriage at risk.
We have begun meeting each other's needs for SF again. I am cautiously optimistic. Feel free to temper my optimism with reality.
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