About 2 weeks ago wife said she was unhappy, didnt love me and wanted divorce. Gave me most the usual reasons, grown apart married young.

Today I discovered she is having a phone/text affair. I confronted her and she said it was flirting and they had sent pictures. After further questioning she agreed it was an emotional affair. I have good evidence that phone sex was also involved.

At what point to I expose? To whom?

Do I exposed to OM's Wife??

Welcome to MB, sorry you find yourself in need of posting a question like this...have been there myself and it does suck.

My input--

Yes, you expose to OMs wife. She deserves to know -- wouldn't you want her to tell you if she had been the one to find out first?

Expect your wife to be angry at you for "hurting" the OM -- for "ruining" his marriage (ironic, I know), for being mean and vengeful. Let it roll off your back. She is most likely still attached to him (what she thought they had) and will act in his defense and her own self-preservation.

You further need to expose to anyone who can be helpful in ending the affair and act as a source of encouragement to keep her from slipping back into it again.

I think you need to have some measure of exposure to serve as some accountability for her and to have someone else (not you) as a source of encouragement for her to work on your marriage and not run away into another EA or PA.

Are you sure there was no physical contact between them? I guess it would be hard to imagine her wanting to leave based solely on an EA, but stranger things have happened.

Hang in there, BFRH -- there is a lot of wisdom in some of the posters here and they will have more "authoritative" advice than my inexperience.

Expose OMW and WW's parents. How did WW and OM meet?

bf, after you expose the affair, I would suggest having a meeting with the OM FACE TO FACE, if you can. Ask him what his intentions are with your wife. Tell him if he does not leave her alone, he will have the fight of his life. You will drag him into court to give testimony about his adultery with your wife in any legal proceedings. Make him as uncomfortable as you can.

Do you have kids?

Where does OM live? Is he near your place, or is it a long distance thing?

If he is in your vicinity and your WW is talking divorce, chances are the A didn't stop at texting/phone sex.

Sucks to hear, I know...but WS's usually only admit to what they have been caught doing (even with their hand in the cookie jar, they still deny). You need to do some more P.I. work, IMHO. You will find out more details, and more facts as you do...and, brace yourself...it isn't going to be easy.

Sorry you find yourself here.

They met online. He lives in Texas and we are in San Jose.
I dont think they have had PA but he travels for work so He could have come here or they couldve planned on it.

He has a wife and small girl. We have 3 kids 8,7, and 5.

Do I expose even if my wife agrees to no contact?

And you live.....?

...oh, missed your edit.

Sorry about that...san jose CA

Your wife cannot be trusted at this point in time. And, your #1 job is to protect your family from some lowlife OM. With that said...yes, expose him for the dirtbag he is.

Absolutely you expose to her! I would do it first thing and not warn your wife you are going to do it. The affair is much more likely to DIE if both ppl are watching from both ends. Secondly, his wife needs to know so can protect herself.

I guess my dilemma is this, if I cannot get my wife to admit to phone sex and sending naked pictures. Do I exposes for it possibly being just flirting?

I don't know anything that was actually said or sent. I cant get a hold of her phone (she has kept it so guarded) and Im sure everything is erased by now. So all I have to go on is phone records and her her saying it was an EA.

Is there any way that you could access her phone account through her phone provider's website? You could do some more digging there, if it's possible.

If you wife is serious about ending the A, and having no contact...she should be more than willing to let you access her cell phone at your leisure. If she is still guarding the phone...she's still in the A, and her promise for NC is a lie.

Expose now !!!!!!

You're still here?

You should be on the phone with OMW.

Do it now !!!!!

No, your wife's admission is irrelevant. Tell the OMW that this is an affair and tell her what you know and suspect. You KNOW it is an affair and your W has told you this. It is not just mere flirting.


Thats just fine. Tell the OMW everything you know. Give her your name and # and ask her to work with you to end the affair. You can compare notes with her and find out if he has traveled to your town.

Just talked to WW. She is going to get our cell phones separated so I cant see her account. I asked her for NC she said she wasnt sure which means NO.

Im talking to a lawyer this morning. I will talk to WW more this afternoon. If I get no concession or budging I will start the exposure.

I def believed I should exposes OMW regardless of what WW does. But if she is willing to do Plan A then I will hold off on exposing to family and friends.

BF, Plan A is NOT for her, it is for YOU, to be worked ALONE. She should never hear the term Plan A or plan B. Part of plan A is EXPOSURE of the affair.

You should expose to the OMW before you do anything. There is no need to contact a lawyer yet before you try to kill her affair. We have had affairs end the DAY they were exposed to the OP's spouse. At the very least, it will cause huge conflict in the affair.

The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A by Pepperband


The carrot of Plan A

Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.


The stick of Plan A

Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not apologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.

She is still having an affair.

Why are you letting her dictate what you should or shouldn't be doing? She already has one foot out the door, and you are going to let her decide whether or not you expose? You are going to let your future, and your children's future rest in the hands of a cheating wife and mother? If you do this, you are wasting your time.

Don't even think about telling your WW that you are going to do plan A, or even what plan A means...just do it. Plan A starts with exposure!!!!!

Look, I know this sucks...BTDT. But you gotta take charge of this, and letting her decide what happens next is only going to have one outcome........more affair.

Any advice and how to contact OMW. I think I know her name based on his myspace.

Tried some search tools and came up with many numbers matching his name and 1 matching hers, but none of his match hers.

Anyway to search marriage records So I could be sure of her name?

Do you have his home #? I would start there and call and ask for her. Disguise your # using *67 so your name does not come up on caller ID. When you call, ask if this is the wife of XYZ and then proceed from there.

I only have his cell phone. Ty for the *67 tip.

Do you have his name and town? You can look up the # in directory assistance.

You say that you know his W's name, so call his cell phone using #67 and ask for his wife. If he is at home, he'll probably hand the phone to her. If not, or he is suspiscious of someone calling for her on his phone...he won't know who you are anyway...no harm done. Then not only do you get the benefit of exposing the dirtbag, but he can also stew about the fact that he was so stupid as to hand the phone over to her.

Im reading some of the letters that Dr Harley has written regarding plan A. I see nothing about exposure.

He talks about negotiating an agreement for No Contact.

This is my theory, hash it out with me. Part of Plan A is filling my wife's Love Bank, how will humiliating her accomplish that?

If we agree to no contact after a certain time, and then can move towards recovery wouldn't that be better than exposing to everyone? I know that could be a long time but Dr H also mentions letting plan A take a while.

I am all for exposing once she is dead set on divorce. I believe that will help me ultimately end up with a better settlement.

I just don't see how exposure helps plan A.

And as far as exposing to OMW. If OM and WW cut it off and he is able to reconcile his relationship to his wife with her never knowing this, how could that not be better?

Thanks for your help guys.

Exposure came from Dr Harley, it is not something we invented:



You are kidding, right? If she does not know, then your wife is FREE to continue pursuing her H. With her not knowing, it makes it much easier to carry on the affair.

Also, he cannot fix his relationship with his wife if she does not know the truth.

Redhead, this is what is encompassed in Plan A:

The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A by Pepperband


The carrot of Plan A

Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.


The stick of Plan A

Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not apologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.

But if my wife has committed to No Contact and total honesty.

Then it is my place to tell OMW. It should be OM responsibility to to OMW.

If I had never found out and my wife committed to No Contact and we rebuilt our relationship..I think that would be better.

He said "Expose where it matters most." If WW has committed to No contact and following four rules...then where does it matter most.

It seems that the purpose of exposure is to bring about no contact. If no contact is agreed then what is that point of exposure?

But is exposure essential. I havent found anywhere DR H says it is essential.

Thank you for helping me I just want to do whats best.

Actually, it is your place to tell the OMW because you know about the truth. The LEAST LIKELY person to tell her is the OM. If your bookkeeper embezzles money from you, isn't it the "place" of whomever knows to tell you? Would you accept it I didn't tell you because "its not my place?" Of course not, that is silly.

The chances of the affair ending is MUCH MORE likely if the OMW does know.

Are you scared of your wife getting mad at you? I know that some men are scared of their wives. Is she bigger than you?

"IF"

earlier you wrote:


Your WW is NOT committed to anything but continued secrecy and deception right now.

Why are you asking a hypothetical --- when your reality is --- your wife has her foot halfway into another couple's marriage and you're somehow afraid to tell the other betrayed spouse there is a thief in her home and your wife is that thief!

Your wife is doing something despicable - she's a homewrecker - there is no "if" about it.



Pep

Nothing is "essential." You don't have to do anything. It is your life. We have just told you the BEST THINGS to do to save your marriage. Take it or leave it. If you don't want to take the advice given here, it is your prerogative. We can move on to others that really want help.

moving on..............

How about doing what is morally and ethically correct.

If you knew OMW's car had a flat tire and the steering wheel was about to fall off - would you mention it to her? It may not be "essential" for your safety - but don't you carry a moral obligation to warn someone unaware of the danger they are in?

I despise the OW's husband from my H's adulterous affair 13 years ago.

He KNEW - and he did not tell me.
He's a horrible person for allowing my marriage to be soiled by his wife and my husband --- when I did "expose" to OWH he said "I read their letters."

HE knew and did not reach out to help me - and he had been at our wedding!

Would you like to re think your position?

Pep

LOL Im 6' 3" 300 lbs shes 5' 7" 115 lbs.

I am not afraid of her. I am afraid of telling OMW who may not want to face it...not all women want to know. They have a small daughter. I believe together and working on whatever problems they have is better than possibly breaking them up.

What are the first priorities for my marriage?

NC and 4 rules... or Exposure and possibly having the whole thing blow up

If no NC is reached then yes exposure but everyone on the site seems to be rushing me to exposure and I dont see how that would help at this moment.

adieu, my dear 300 lb tall man

I wish you the best of the best -

Pep

Ok well then here is the question I guess I shouldve asked or thought I did... is phone flirting an affair.

I dont know If I have enough to go on to call the OMW.

This is hopeless..

I am sorry I know you have been through this and are recovered for a while...but this is just happening to me

I am trying to ask every questions I know of.

Bigfatredhead-

I understand. You're scared, nervous -- never been through this.

You feel as if you're in a mine field and the slightest wrong step might end in disaster.

But you need to trust the advice you're getting from folks like MelodyLane, PepperBand and others -- they not only know what worked for them but also have the benefit of the positive results other people have related here regarding exposure and No Contact.

So, you're afraid to tell the OMW what that they were / are having an emotional / phone affair.

OK, tell her what you DO know:

-Your wife and her husband have been exchanging flirty, racy text messages loaded with sexual meaning and language (your wife's admission to you)

-Your wife had / has developed strong feelings for her husband (your wife's admission to you)

-You don't know if he reciprocates but you do know he has been an active participant in the texting (you have phone records)

-You have strong suspicions the messaging involved nude or racy photographs (give her whatever evidence you have)

-Your wife admitted it had reached the level of an affair in her mind


If this isn't enough information for any normal wife to place her husband's cell phone where the sun don't shine, then I'm not sure what would do it.

You are clearly calling out what you do know. If you don't feel safe or comfortable speculating, don't.

BUT, by your own thread here you outlined that you KNOW enough to make it clear to the OMW that your wife is a threat to their marriage and she better deal with her husband on this.

Period.

If you don't do this, you are risking potential relapse on your wife's part or at least leaving the OM unchecked to pursue your wife through other channels.

You need someone watching and guarding both ends of this affair -- you watch your wife, she watches her husband.

Step up to the plate...

I think you misunderstood, and you are thinking once your WW tells you, "OK, I agree to NC" that you are home-free. The truth is...most WSs lie about contact, especially in the beginning. (I was shocked to learn how much my WH lied about after he agreed to NC...)

You said this just happened today. This is a big red flag that she isn't ready to give up her EA yet.

Exposure is the best shot you have of breaking the fantasy bubble of the affair. I would be willing to bet money if you don't expose the EA will continue.

As far as what to tell OMW...I think this is great:

People are trying to help you here. I really hope you will listen to the advice you have been given. Good luck!

BigRed,

I've seen BS's get 2x4's before, but you my man need a brick to the head.....


You say that your WW is not willing to give you access to her cell phone, but yet you are very sure that there is no contact with OM?.........WAKE THE F@CK UP MAN !!!!!!!!

I'm a BH....heard every lie in the book, been through everything you are going through, and you should listen up, because you are going to get f@cked around tenfold by our cheating WW and her new boyfriend if you don't.

Expose her now. It isn't about humiliating your WW...it's about her having to own her [censored], which she has yet to do, and you are enabling her to continue to talk to OM on her cell phone...WHICH SHE IS OBVIOUSLY STILL DOING!!!!! She has NOT gone NC with OM....I repeat NOT gone NC with OM!!!!

Do yourself a favor and ask your WW one more time if she will give you access to her cell phone and past records (since she claimed NC started). If she refuses...ask her why. You want to know what she will say?... because I already know..."it's an invasion of privacy" and "I'm a grown woman, I don't need you looking over my shoulder". I got $100.00 that says she uses 1 of these answers. You know what these answers are short for?..."I'm still in my affair, and as long as you don't see the proof in black and white, and I have you convinced that exposure is wrong, and you are too chickensh!t to do anything about it....I'm going to continue my affair".

C'mon, BigRed...take advice from someone who knows......expose the cheater already.

Go back and read Intro's post to you.

Now read it again.

Any of this getting through to you?

Read it again if it is not...

If she can't won't prove to you that she is no longer in contact with OM it is because she is still in contact with OM.

End of logical testing, soul searching and seeking enlightenment.

She's still deepening the relationship with OM.

She wants her own phone account? Shut her phone off and let her get one on her own.

Tell her no contact means NO contact...

NONE...
ZILCH...
ZIP...ZERO...NADA...

You aren't going to whine her back, you have to WIN her back and you can only win if you are willing to fight...

Go read Intro's post again...

Mark

Thanks for the replies. What I am mostly waiting for is WW to commit to NC. That hasnt happened yet. And I am watching her like a hawk tracking everything she is doing.

If she commits to NC and total honesty then I will call OM and tell him to tell his wife or I will.

If she doesnt not commit to NC soon then I will tell OMW.

To me it would be better for my wife to chose NC then to be forced into it.

Hi BFR,

I have read your thread and seen how everyone is trying to get through to you. What's the deal, Dude?

If your wife wants to separate your phone accounts, what is that telling you?

What are you doing to watch her "like a hawk?"

You need to follow the advice you've been given here if you want to have a snowball's chance in h*ll of saving your marriage.

Let me tell you a little story:

I tried to expose to OWH on D-day. I hadn't found MB yet, it was just an instinctual thing.

My messages were diverted by OW, his wife.

She and my WH then proceeded to make ME look like some nut job because I was upset by their EA. I was off my rocker, a few bricks short of a load, losing my marbles...pick your poison, they used it.

I installed a keylogger on WH-Gray's pc. Then of course I was privy to all of the disgusting details of their A. I stopped monitoring before it hit a PA but I could pretty much tell when it happened.

You need to wake up and smell the river, Dude. I can see how you are viewing exposure as some sort of revenge. That AIN'T it!! Think of it this way: OMW has a right to save her marriage if she so chooses. Well, she doesn't have a choice now because she doesn't know what the heck is going on! (Though she may suspect it.)

Don't leave this poor woman suffering like this!!

The affair is going to go deeper underground, they are going to get closer and closer and that will make it harder on everyone and you will have less chance of saving your marriage. Think about it.

Are you even reading anything here?

You don't wait for NC to start...
You call OMW, not OM, his wife, and tell her about the affair...

If you tell him to tell her, he will tell her to be ready because there is an insane, crazed jealous husband that has been stalking him because he thinks he's having an affair with his wife...That this guy is abusive and that is why he has been helping this poor girl in an effort to try to get her away from this nut case she is married to. (Sets you up for am order pf protection and getting you removed from your home by the cops too)


So then when you call, she'll know he is right and stand behind him all the way, because unless she already knows about the affair, she will not believe he's boinking your wife any more than you wanted to believe it...

So you call his wife first...

Then you tell your wife's family, his family, friends of the marriage, anyone else who might have influence over either of them and pressure them to end the affair. You don't even care why the affair ends, just so that it does.

You don't wait for the affair to burn out and then see what she thinks, you take action to end the affair.

You might have problems in the relationship, but right now the problem IS the affair.

Do you understand Plan A?

Discover her ENs and do what you can to meet them.
Identify your own love busters and kill them dead.
Have no expectations of your wife even noticing what you are doing. Expect NO reaction of any kind from her and no matter what her reaction is you keep meeting her ENs as best you can and avoid love busters.

And keep exposing...

And that's it. That is really all there is to Plan A. You do it as a PLAN, one step at a time and over and over again.

Meeting her ENs and avoiding love busters tries to bring her back because you are filling her LB$ back up.

The exposure tries to bring her home by giving her no other choice because no one else is supporting her actions.

It takes both to make it work.

Mark

Okay, so IF :RollieEyes: WW commits :RollieEyes: to NC :RollieEyes: and total honesty :RollieEyes:...you are going to tell OM to tell his wife :RollieEyes: ???????

If you play this thing out the way you state...every place I put Mr. RollieEyes :RollieEyes: in my reply is NOT going to happen!!!!!

You mean to tell me that a POSOM is going to tell his wife anything? Sorry, bigred, but he's simply going to tell you that he told her...then continue phone sex (and probably more) with your wife.

She will NEVER commit to NC without pressure from other people (people you should be exposing to). If you were correct, and she'd commit to NC without the pressure of friends and family, and only pressure from yourself...SHE'D HAVE DONE IT ALREADY!!!!!

Would it be better if your WW chose NC by herself, without being forced to?...sure. Ask around around this forum and find out just how many WS's agreed, instituted and maintained NC without pressure from their BS, family and friends....ZILCH. What makes you think your WW will do it? You seem to have a lot of faith in a woman who is texting pictures of her naked body to a strange man...don't you think?

Look, you don't have to take anyone's advice, even though we have all BTDT. But, I gotta ask...if you think we are all wrong and your WW is more sincere than any of us...why are you even here?

And it's not going to happen until you expose.
Why would she quit contacting him when her affair is so lovely and exciting, so much fun?
Bring it out into the light of day and see how fun she finds it then.

YOU are not doing anything wrong.
SHE is.

Do you know how to expose? It's not saying "Oh, she's so mean and so bad, make her behave!" It's not about revenge or control. It's about saving your M.

Call OM's wife NOW and tell her what you know.
Then call WW's parents, siblings, best friend, your parents. Tell them that WW is involved in an affair with OM. You don't know if it's gone physical but you do know that inappropriate photographs have been exchanged and phone sex has already taken place. Ask them for their support of you and WW. <-- this is key! It means they don't have to pick sides.

Some folks say you should ask "Do you have any advice?" when you expose. Personally I think this is a mixed bag. Some folks may have good advice, others may feel like they have to pick sides or decide to stay out of things.

When you expose, your WW will be hopping mad. She'll tell you she was ready to end contact but now you've ruined any chance of reconciliation. She'll tell you she can't trust you any more. She'll tell you it's her business, not yours. She'll tell you she hates you.

Those are all the same as a two year old having a temper tantrum when you take away their secret shiny playtoy. They don't like it AT ALL. It has nothing to do with right and wrong. It has everything to do with YOU getting in the way of her endorphin rush. Period.

Bottom line - every hour that you fail to expose, your wife is getting more involved with OM.

I dont think you are all wrong. I am scared to death to do anything. I am scared to death to make one wrong move. Its my whole freaking world we are talking about I am sorry its not easy for me to make a decision.

I talked to her last night she said she will not stop contact. I have hacked her email, key logged her computer, and can watch all her cell activity. Since I found out about the EA she has contacted him but he has not replied to her. I dont know if she told him I knew.

I am ready to contact OMW. Ive got all the ammo.

I talked to the Marriage counselor we are seeing tomorrow. He wants me to wait for our 1st session before I expose.

Did he say why?

No. I didnt have much time with him on the phone.

Edit: He prob just wanted more details before he gave that advice.

But I have come to the realization that its the thing I need to do. But I dont see harm in waiting until after our 1st session.

I understand that you are scared and have many, many, many BIG decisions to make...but waiting until you have your session tomorrow to expose is just buying time for your WW to continue contact until that time.

Sounds like your MC is going to be similar to mine and my WW's (forgive, forget, give WW space, can't control her life, etc....). It's a waste of time for someone in your position to have a MC like that...he's now an enabler IMO.

Call OMW today !!!!!!

A lot of so called MC's out there do not know how effective exposure is. Do so now before he tells you in front of WW not to expose.

I am sorry we are all so hard on you, BFR. It's just that we have been where you are so we know what's coming.

I remember well being EXACTLY where you are: afraid to make a move. Isn't the term for that "going tharn" as in Watership Down?

We are all just trying to help you. It might help if you look at it this way...I was told this a LOT, and it's so true: "You are afraid of losing your wife but guess what? You have ALREADY LOST HER. So you really have nothing more to lose."

After I tried to expose the first time and failed, I let the whole thing drag on for months before I finally was able to expose again. And that was thanks to the folks here at MB.

You can wait around. I was stuck, too, and prayed every day for one of the affairees to have an epiphany or for OWH to finally wake up and smell the river. I did the "carrot" of Plan A, no stick at all.

Well, that was the wrong thing to do but what did I know? Then I found MB and after lurking for a while I posted. It was less than a week later that I exposed and it was for the better.

I was at the point where I found myself asking myself why in the SAM HILL was I keeping THEIR dirty little secret? And I felt SO much better after I finally gave OWH the evidence. It was a giant weight lifted from my shoulders.

That's when things started to change for the better, when I finally had the encouragement and found the courage to take ACTION.

Charlotte

Each day that you are allowing contact to continue without exposing to OMW your WW slips further into her EA and your chances at a good R get slimmer and slimmer.

Most MCers don't know the first thing about how to deal with As.

This is exactly what will happen too.

MC will bring up the subject of exposure...WW will leave the session, call everyone she knows, and tell them all how paranoid BigRed is...make him look like the fool, then carry on with her affair.

BTDT.

If he plans on talking about it in front of your wife, you will have been effectively dispossessed of your greatest weapon against the affair. You will have been disarmed.

Marriage counselors have the highest failure rate of any of the counseling disciplines at 84% failure, because they do not understand the dynamics of adultery and haven't the slightest idea how to save a marriage. They are little more than divorce faciliators and can't help you save this. Most are not PRO-marriage.

Dr. Harley,on the other hand is a clinical psychologist with 35 years experience specializing in adultery. He knows how to save marriages from adultery. He is a leading expert in this area with 21 books under his belt.

In all the years I have been here, I have NEVER heard anyone say they were sorry they exposed. But I have heard numerous people say they were sorry they DIDN'T when they lost their marriage.

See, affairs thrive on secrecy, so what you are doing is ENABLING the affair by obstinately refusing to help yourself. it is a strategic mistake that I suspect you will come to regret dearly.

p.s. also, marriage counseling is a complete waste of time when one of the partners is in an active affair. Any honest MC will tell you this and not take your money. That is because recovery is impossible in an ongoing affair. It is a waste of time and money.

You've been given so much good advice, but I thought I would chime in with another perspective. I am a FWW -- and I feared exposure more than anything! It would have stopped me dead in my tracks. I didn't want everyone to know what I was up to! And I did everything I could to keep my husband from telling anyone!

What you are not understanding is that your WW is ASHAMED of what she is doing. Having an affair is something she desperately wants to keep hidden, and she will manipulate you in a million ways to keep you quiet.

Also, OM is likely very devoted to his family. This so far is a relatively short affair -- so the liklihood that OM want to blow apart his life with his wife and family are VERY SMALL. Once OMW finds out, he will be desperate to please her and will cut off your wife without a backwards glance. The longer you let this go on, the more entrenched their "feelings" become and the harder it is for them to let go.

And by the way -- you simply cannot wait for her to stop contacting him or agree to "no contact". It will NEVER happen.

She does not have the willpower to stop it. OM is meeting needs that you weren't -- and she will not be willing to give that up.

I don't know what he does for her -- do you? Is it that he simply makes time to TALK to her? Or that he ADMIRES her?
What needs is OM meeting that you did not?

She may tell you that she's stopped, but really she will just get sneakier.

If she were a cocaine addict would you feel guilty about cutting her off from her supply?

And one more thing, in case you didn't get this. Do NOT tell your wife that you plan to expose. Just Do It!

Do NOT wait until your MC session. That would be FATAL to your marriage. You can take that to the bank.

I think I am becoming more aware of what he is giving her that I was not. An attractive well built guy. He is former military well built and she said the pics of him were shirtless.

In all our conversations about the possiblity of recovery she constantly says she could never see making love to me again. And if I was to ask her on a date now she would say no.

Some insight one of our mutual good friends had given me was that she was getting increasingly more vain. He was worried because she had become more and more obsessed with her appearance.

In our conversation last night she said it was and emotional affair to the affect that she was attracted to him, that it was a lustful affair. That she could picture herself making love to him.

She has always been skinny. She eats same or worse then me and stays skinny. I on the other hand I have put on 50lbs since being married.

So yeah I know what he is giving her that I am not. But I am a few years away from being able to ever give her that.

I agree with others here who say that the OMW should be informed. But not just 2 end the affair. 2 end the OM's entitlement that he can do it again with someone else's W, if your W won't. It also does give the OMW the oppor2nity that she might not otherwise have - 2 decide for herself if she wants 2 stay married 2 someone like the OM.


You say this a lot, Mel. I don't dispute the truth of this statement, but when you 2uote him about exposure, I have 2 wonder where the 2uotes are coming from. Because in my sessions with SH, "exposure 2 everyone" was most definitely not any kind of "first rule". And, so far as I know, Dr Harley doesn't even mention exposure in his publications or on the website.

If I'm wrong, I'd like 2 know that. But unless Dr Harley posts these statements you're quoting himself, then it's just hearsay when you post them.

-ol' 2long

BFR --

That is a BIG red flag that she is getting more concerned with her appearance. Because that means she is preparing to SEE him.

My affair also started as the online/phone emotional affair -- and as I made plans to see OM I became obsessed with my looks.
Also purchasing sexier clothes and underwear.

So I suggest you get to OMW soon so she can put a stop to any trips he has planned through your town....

Right now, it doesn't make a difference WHAT it is he's giving her. You have to stop it!!! You are approaching this like it is a friendly competition. It is NOT!!! It is WAR!!! Forget the delays, expose the affair and show your WW you are NOT approaching this like a game of checkers!!!

Lexxxy's right, BigRed.

Forget waiting for the MC session...pick up the phone.

Every worry you have right now about OM is going to come true if you don't.

Pick up the phone.

My other fear..if I do this today..she wont go to MC tomorrow

MC will do NOTHING at all for your M if there is contact.

Might even set you back. My SIL and her XH's MC told XH to give SIL "space" while she was involved in EA. THey are now D.

You have a good point, and there is a good chance that you are right...she may decide to say "f@ck you BigRed...you embarrassed the h3ll out of me...stick it up your [censored]!!!!!". But, you know who she WON'T be able to run to?.....OM !!!!! Why? Because, he is going to be at home, with his BW.....getting a [censored] kicking.

Call her...or you may as well just pack up, move on, and mail your house keys to OM.

Do it.

So she misses a session.

Which is more important:

1 - a flawless attendance record with a counselor that statistically has a 16% chance of helping your marriage, a counselor your WW won't really be listening to anyway is incapable of hearing because she's involved with OM
2 - ending the A


Now let me think....

Besides, what guarantee do you have that she's going to go, anyway?

My thoughts exactly. Took the words right outta my fingertips.

Charlotte

Actually you are wrong. But all you have to do is ask. Those quotes are from this forum. Over on the Weekend section - those are Dr. Harley's actual posts. Dr. Harley talks about exposure quite a bit. In fact, that is where we got the idea.

Let me get this straight. You are "afraid" she won't go to MC, a complete and total waste of time but NOT AFRAID to ENABLE the affair.

Do you know where he works?

You can do all sorts of "social engineering" like the hackers do.

I called some random 800# at my XW's OM's place of employment and layed on the story that I was an old Navy buddy of his, and I lost his info, but remember that he got a job from one of his pals at this business. I said I was interested in working there, and wanted to get his office number and the number of his supervisor so I could let them know I might be interested if they have any openings.

The helpful woman who answered the 800# gave me all sorts of information, phone numbers, e-mails, etc.

So with some social engineering, you may be able to gather all sorts of contact information, if you know his former employer, where he went to college, his parents.

Heck, call his parents if you can find them and say you are a long lost college pal and want to call him at home sometime.

Most folks will give up the information, if you are friendly, polite, and have a good story.

Just know something about where he went to school, etc.

TJ/

EE, I laughed when I read this. People can be so gullible sometimes.

/TJ

This is going to be our first session.

I know that its not going to change her and thats she is not going to decide to stop A based on one visit.

My hope is he can put some sort of doubt in her head about what she is doing, or give her some sort of regret.

Then when I expose she will have at least heard from the counselor once.

If I expose today there is no hope of her even hearing what he has to say.

Then for heaven's sake, tell your counselor NOT to bring up your exposure plans.

You're wasting your time and money. She isn't listening to what you have to say...what makes you think she's going to listen to him?

Call OMW.

edit: Any MC with training in how to handle infidelity would not even counsel a married couple who has one party currently in the affair...he's not going to end the affair for you, if that's what you are thinking.

She won't be hearing him anyway. Not in the wayward state of mind.

Tell you what, Bub, I betcha dollars to doughnuts that she's going to appease you and it's a way to try and find an easy way out of your marriage for her.

This is what the waywards think: "If I can get him/her to go to MC then I can find an easy way out of this marriage so I can be with the one I truly love and then I won't have to worry about my BS's state of mind."

Charlotte

Ah, but I don't have access 2 that 4um. So it's still hearsay since it's not posted by him and it's not in his publications.

Why doesn't he post about such a key (or not) part of the MB methods in the publicly accessible 4ums?

-ol' 2long

I did

You are probably right. I do believe that those are my wifes exact intentions.

If my counselor doesnt say anything about exposure then what does it hurt to wait til after our first session.

And no I dont expect the counselor to be able to end the A. You didnt read what I read.

But if it puts and inkling of doubt or remorse in her head and if she likes the counselor, then when i do expose and she is pissed she is going to be more likely to go back to the counselor.

Your W is currently a WW...not a W. She is NOT going to magically start being remorseful from speaking with a counselor. She is NOT going to get an inkling of doubt about her current affair from a counselor. And, if she does end up liking the counselor, it will be because either a) he his pro-divorce or b) he tells you to give her space.

You have 2 choices, from what I can tell...

1. Remain status quo, and enable your WW's affair, while hoping someone outside your M (MC) will save it for you, while your WW continues to have secret phone sex with her lover.

or

2. Call OMW and tell her everything you know...take some [censored] from your WW...but, at least OM won't be available to her anymore (trust me...he'll be so tied up with his family, WW won't hear from him for a looong time...if ever)


Your MC is not going to get your WW to end her affair.

BFR, have you asked yourself why every single person who has responded to you has said "EXPOSE NOW!!!" and not one has said "hmm, you may be on to something, there - I think you're right to wait until after the counseling session."

Wonder why that is?

To reiterate Turtlehead......


EXPOSE NOW !!!!!!!!!!

nope, its not hearsay, those posts are right here on this forum and can be verified. Thats not hearsay.

dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
hear·say Audio Help /&#712;h&#618;&#601;r&#716;se&#618;/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[heer-sey] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. unverified, unofficial information gained or acquired from another and not part of one's direct knowledge: I pay no attention to hearsay.

I'm one of those that chose NOT to expose when I found out about my FWW's A, and I can tell you now with absolute certainty that, having gone through what I have for the last 3+ years trying to recover our M, if I had to do it again I would choose to expose the A immediately - to WW's parents, to my parents, to the OM's GF, and to their place of work.

Just do it.

I thought you said it was on one of the Weekend 4ums, which are only accessible 2 those who've gone 2 an MB weekend. If that's the case, then it's not "right here on this forum" and it is hearsay.

-ol' 2long

Surely you can access that part of the Marriage Builders forums? Are you saying in all these years you have never bothered to go to a Marriage Builders weekend? wow, thats a surprise..

Even so, hearsay is "unverified" information, and this can be verified so its not hearsay. Sorry..

I see! I've "never bothered 2 go 2 a Marriage Builders weekend!"

Why the Gehenna do I try 2 have a conversation with a condescending person such as yourself?

I wonder how many general members here have similarly "not bothered" 2 attend an MB weekend?


Apparently, until I bother 2 attend an MB weekend, I can't verify this information is Dr Harley's own words, so it remains hearsay. Sorry.

-ol' 2long

How sad you have never been, what a huge miss! We enjoyed it very much. However, just because YOU can't verify it yourself, doesn't mean it's "unverifiable." Therefore, not hearsay.


Hope you get to one some day.

Can I butt in here you guys....thanks.


CALL OMW !!!!!!!!

You are worried that WW will not got to MC if you expose.

It is proven that MC is a Waste of money and time when a WS is invoved in an affair.

So getting your WW their is pointless. Especially when the councilor will give your WW the heads up about your exposing WW.

I would be more worried that why am I sitting there doing nothing that will be effective to stop the OM from banging my wife.

I doubt I ever will attend one, as I can't go alone. And I don't think my W will ever be interested. But you never know. She's changing faster than I can keep track, these days.

But because I can't verify it for myself, it IS hearsay.

The reason I keep coming back 2 this particular issue is that, if Dr Harley says it some places and not others, it sounds contradictory, like having the MB plans in the first place but stating that he'd quickly DV if his own W had an affair (2 tell you the truth, I doubt very much he would DV in the very unlikely even his W did cheat at this point, because they have such a long his2ry 2gether - which is why most people who come here choose 2 rebuild). Steve told me he believes in surgical exposure, and didn't even think that I needed 2 expose 2 my son when I did (this past spring). And truthfully, it didn't change anything - even my son's view of his mom.

So, if WH really believes nuclear exposure is better for rebuilding marriages than surgical exposure, then I'd really like 2 hear him say that himself. Especially with an explanation.

Right smack dab here would be just fine.

In the original poster's si2ation, I think exposure 2 the OMW is a no-brainer - she deserves 2 know so that she can make her own decisions, whatever they may be. The next most useful reason 2 expose 2 her is 2 keep the OM from continuing this selfish behavior with other people's wives.

-ol' 2long

Well no, it is not. Hearsay is defined as "unverifiable," not just limited by your inability to see that forum. It is verifiable. And you know that.

I do hope you can go to a MB weekend some day. I think both of you would benefit greatly.



But, there is no contradiction at all, that makes no sense. Dr. Harley never says he believes in saving every marriage. Just because he would choose to divorce does not mean there are others who do not want that. A contradiction would be if he said "all marriages should be saved" and then said he wouldn't save his.

And I doubt you know better than what he would do if Joyce had an affair. That is not a credible assertion. You have never met the man.


Steve told you what to do for your situation. He tells others what to do in their situations. He has told some BS' to hang up and call the OMW right then. He has told others to picket the business place of the OM. He has told others to do "everything short of taking out a billboard." So using your own personal situation as some sort of RULE is misleading.

Even so, Steve tends to have different tactics than Dr Harley. They are different people. They both believe in exposure. I have showed you Dr Harley's posts and he discussed it frequently on his radio show.


And others might feel differently. Personally, I have advocated exposure to the OMW, but others might be necessary. We all want to help him end the affair, we will likely have different ideas about the best way to effect it. Yours is not necessarily the best way.

Did you mean SH? If so, I would like to see your PROOF he said that about "surgical exposure."

Otherwise it is just hearsay. Right here, please.

Right.

Still hearsay. Even if you post direct quotes here, I have no way of verifying that they're from WH, or whether the context is preserved. Are you the official spokesperson for Dr Harley?

Considering SH and WH have different approaches, and offer different, customized plans 2 their clients, who are we 2 give ANY advice about exposure, which is not discussed in the publicly-available books and web articles?

Since you have apparently met SH in person (I can't remember if you've coached with him yourself), then maybe you have heard him advocate surgical exposure and can verify 2 your own satisfaction.

I won't discuss coach/client privilege info on this 4um.

But yes, it is hearsay from your perspective, particularly if I'd quoted him. I wouldn't expect you 2 take it as gospel without verifying it yourself.

-ol' 2long

BFRH,

My WH went to MC while in his A.

First question the MC asked was what my goal was for MC...and I told him to save my marriage. He then asked WH what his goal was, and WH thought about it and said, "My goal is to decide to leave the marriage and be with OW, leave the marriage and be by myself, or to stay and work on the marriage."

MC said, "Okay. I can help you each with your goals."

Then he looked at WH and said, "In order to make this really important decision, you'll need to shut out OW's influence. You'll have to end your A today."

WH didn't say anything. Nor did I. I learned self-control in MC sessions.



At the end of the first session, MC asked that we have two sessions the next week...one alone with me and one alone with WH, and we agreed.

WH did not end his A that day.

He did ten minutes after his next session.

For you, BFRH, I would have already exposed if I could have found OW's H. I couldn't. He was supposedly in another country. I did search and do my best. I told my sons (well, YS told me after WH took him on a date with OW); I told his parents and asked for their help; and his sister, whom he was living with.

And WH still went to MC. You never know...whether it was really to justify his actions, to really make a choice, or what. Fact was, he went. He listened. This guy didn't dance him around...he laid out facts, explained and defined influence and that is was messing up WH's head. And WH made a deadline for his choice, too.

I had to focus on my self-control...and take my ever-loving-control-freakishly-large-hands off of what I had no control over. My WH. And WH moved back in two weeks after that.

We were in MC for a year and a half. We went from crisis counseling into personal growth counseling. It mattered.

LA

No, unlike yourself, I do not feel I am the official spokesman for the Harleys, which is why I post Dr Harley's direct QUOTES. I don't proffer up unsubstantiated, unverifiable - probably biased and self serving - hearsay as you do.

And no, Steve didn't say what you say here when I spoke to him about exposure. Others were there, they might remember differently.

The only thing he told me was that he did agree with our advocacy of exposure here, but that when he was coaching a couple, depending on the situation, he might DELAY the initial exposure until he had a chance to "SELL" the WS on voluntarily ending the affair.


If you feel this way, then why are you giving any advice here at all? Seems like you might want to take your own advice? But wouldn't it be a terrible tragedy for the folks here if we didn't tell them about one of the most potent weapons against adultery? We couldn't very well say we wanted to help folks if we withheld such valuable advice, could we?

Wow, I don't think I've ever met a groupie quite so full of themselves before you!

It's those quotes of Dr Harley's, which are different from his publications and the rest of this website, which promted me 2 ask for his direct input on the topic of exposure. What is someone such as myself 2 believe is the MB method? Your word? No thank you.


And you wouldn't advocate that? Right? And with even less information than SH has in a coaching environment?


Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? Do you really expect me 2 answer that question? Expect away, I'm not going 2.


Of course it would be a tragedy. But exposure in the wrong way can also be tragic.

Exposure makes sense, 2 a point, beyond which it is unnecessary at best, and potentially dangerous at worst. Your own example of SH suggesting that a BS picket in front of the OP's place of business clearly backfired when you did essentially that in lino's si2ation.

Just be careful out there.

-ol' 2long

2Long, that is why I didn't post "my words" as you did, but Dr. Harley's words from this forum. I agree that what you say is unsubstantiated hearsay and shouldnt' be taken seriously. It dovetails closely to your own approach to exposure, which was closer to enabling, IMO. This is why direct quotes are so much better than your words filtered through your own biased memory. Wouldn't you agree?

I hope you do take your own advice and STOP giving advice, since you admit you are so very confused. I would hate to see others here end up in a marriage with a 6+ year affair, wouldn't you? [or is it longer?]


Oh, so you don't agree with Steve's advice in this case? How do you know it "backfired?" Are you in touch with lino?

Backfired? Actually, it had the intended effect. The only problem was the realization that MB can be hazardous when SOME people will go to any extreme to aid & enable an affair. I wish I could take credit for that plan but it wasn't mine.

You mentioned on the other forum that Dr. Harley is not a "bright guy." Does this mean you think you are "brighter" than Steve too since you don't approve of his picketing advice? What are your own qualifications?

As you said about Dr Harley: click here

Do you think Steve is also "not bright?"

p.s. Why can't you answer that? I really would like the answer to this. Why do you feel you should continue giving advice here and others should NOT? Shouldn't you take your own advice? If that is good advice for us, why wouldn't it be for you?

Is it because you believe you are "brighter" than Dr. Harley? Are you brighter than the rest of us too?

LOL my post has been officially hijacked...

I'm really sorry, BFRH. 2long seems to have a resentment towards me that he feels supercedes the interests of others. He does this quite often.

2long, how about we continue this via email and leave this man alone? My email is listed in my signature.

Can someone link me to some posts where people exposed to OMW so soon and it worked out good,

I have read a lot where they wished they would have, that's great but that really doesn't help me make my decision, because they have no idea what the outcome would have been.

The one story I read where he exposed like crazy, scope11, doesnt look like it is turning out so well.

Thank you

BFRH, you are misunderstanding exposure. It is but ONE COMPONENT of a larger program to end the affair. No one has ever said that exposure alone is guaranteed to end the affair and magically save the marriage. There are MANY STEPS to this.

We do have affairs that have been killed the SAME DAY they were exposed, but that is the exception, not the rule. My H's affair was one that ended the day I exposed it. Exposure is one of many tactics. [Runnerboy is another that is fairly current]

However, only 15% of affairs even end in Plan A. Most end up in Plan B, which is complete separation.

Exposure WILL hasten the death of the affair, which gives the marriage the best chance. The marriage has NO CHANCE as long as there is an active affair, so the most effective thing you can do is to kill the affair. Dr. Harley recommends causing as much conflict as possible for the affair.

Affairs thrive on SECRECY. Exposing an affair is just like bringing in a crowd of people to the crack house to watch the crack heads. It is no fun to get high anymore when everyone is watching. They are based on fantasies so when the affairee is forced to explain himself and see himself through the eyes of others, he sees how sleazy and ridiculous he looks. This inflicts a huge blow to the affair.

If you are looking for guarantees, the only guarantee we can give is that if you continue to do NOTHING to save your marriage, you probably won't have a marriage. The ones that don't make it are the ones like you who ENABLE the affair.

****edit****

As a degreed professional counsellor myself...

I agree 100% with Melody Lane.

Exposure works.

Mr. Wondering

There are others. A current one is Mike_C2 over on JFO.

He did the kind of exposure that Mel is advocating here, but it appears 2 be working out favorably (so far, that is).

One I remember from years ago is J.R. He confronted the OM at his own house (per Steve Harley's recommendation in his particular case). He managed 2 do it without getting physical with the guy. In the end, however, it made no difference. It didn't end the affair even when the OM got cancer (and is probably long gone by now). He's been divorced and moved on for a few years now.

I didn't expose 2 Rat Meat's W after d-day, and for about 6 months I regretted not doing so. But I couldn't have paid for the way she reacted when she found out herself (RM was consulting on a research project for my W at the time, and when Mrs Meat found their emails on his computer while he was out of town, she reformatted all his hard drives!). My W's affair was really in 2 parts - the first about 4 years long starting in 1991, the 2nd when she hired him 2 consult for her in 2000. Mrs Meat found out about the affair in 95 and made RM go NC on my W, but she never told me about it. Wish she had.

She later threw RM out in the dead of winter, then called him back because she couldn't handle their 2 boys on her own. When he came home, he literally walked in on her and her OM boinking in their bedroom.

I managed 2 miss all the high drama at the time it happened, though I did get a good laugh a year or so later when I heard about it.

RM got DV'd in 2004 and married another idiot about a year later (that he was dating while he was still married and still in contact with my W).

Nowadays, I don't regret the choices I made back then. In fact, I'm rather satisfied with the results (in our marriage, I could care less what those 2wits are up 2).

One thing 2 keep in mind about exposure is the very PURPOSE of exposure - it's 2 end the affair. Now, it's not rocket science 2 realize that the best people 2 expose 2 are those who are close 2 the WS (like trusted friends and family) and can put pressure on them 2 end the affair and recommit 2 the marriage.

Think the OM will be a potential ally? You want NO CONTACT with him on your W's part, so why initiate contact yourself?

That's not 2 say you shouldn't contact him, just that you likely know very little about how he'll react or what he's capable of (he IS a liar and a cheat by definition, after all).

That's why I think exposure 2 the OMW is more important (she needs 2 know what she's dealing with, anyway).

As for family, exposure 2 them depends on whether they'll likely be willing 2 help you rebuild your marriage, or whether they're likely 2 "side with her". Do you have any idea?

Exposing 2 employers may or may not be a good idea. Mostly it depends on the HR departments rules about infidelity (assuming they work 2gether). Some big companies fire cheaters. Most really don't care.

-ol' 2long

I don't know exactly what all is in the link below but it's some really old MB discussion material on Exposure including further links to other old discussions.

EXPOSURE 101

Good luck,

Mr. Wondering

BFRH,

Here's a link to a couple of threads thread by TMTS (Toomuchtoosoon) who arrived on November 27 or 28 of last year and by December 3rd had already exposed to his in-laws and parents. He did not know of anyone on OM's side to expose to until the eve of his wife moving out of the house when he found out that OM had a girl friend. He exposed to her as soon as she was found and his wife never did leave the house...The apartment she had signed a lease on became their love nest until she was able to sublet it a few weeks later.

Read through his three threads and see what not only exposure but a well executed Plan A can do.

The Beginning

Questioning

The Long Haul and The Finish Line

The last of these three is 103 pages that will rip your heart out before giving you a reward that seemed impossible even a few days before...

And TMTS was one of the lucky ones. He never had to go to Plan B since the affair ended and he had done such good work in Plan A that his wife was ready to work on recovery almost before the smoke cleared.

Read it if you want to see what can happen.

Mark

BFRH

"Back in the day" I was a very scared BS. OM and WW both threatened me with worse outcomes if I exposed to his long term GF.

Mel, Pep, Kiwi , WAT and others rousted me up to expose.

Me ? I got tired of being controlled by the affair as if *I* had done something wrong.

I decided that if it were OMGF with the info about the affair would I want to know or not ?

I decided that if my recovery was so fragile that doing a righteous thing like telling OM GF what kind of a man the father of her child was would break it, then I could not walk on enough eggshells to sustain a happy life based on that.

I asked myself this question " what would I do if I was not afraid?"

So on a trip to Tescos I called OM GF. I told her everything. I still remember with a shudder the very SECOND that her heart broke.

She thanked me through her tears. We exchanged contact details.

Then I puked in the bushes outside Tescos. It got back to Squid from OM within 5 minutes, and Squid txted me " that's it ! If I can't trust you I will divorce you!" ( Oh the irony!).

OM GF tells me she threw righteous crockery and insults in tears at OM for a couple of hours while he tried to lie and obfuscate out of the well of pain he had dug for them both. His soft lips half convinced her that I was crazy, so I faxed her copies of his "love" letters to Squid.

That was the beginning of the end of the affair.

OM GF and I kept in touch to sync whereabouts and lies for a year. No contact for 3 years now. Not required.

OM GF thanked me for giving her the chance to rebuild her R with OM. They are now happier than they have been for a while. They owe a part of that to ME.

As for ME, I felt myself become a KNIGHT rather than a serf, taking control of my life not being a victim of it.

It helped me plan A, lovingly detach and rebuild our lives all because I did a courageous righteous thing when I was fearful.

The only part of wider exposure I regret is that i told one of Squid's best friends, and she just used it as the juiciest gossip of the month, giving Squid advice like " follow your heart".

Morally stupid people shouldn't be exposed to IME.

Exposure to OM GF was crucial. and effective

LovingAnyway just posted about how he exposed the best he could (OM was overseas so difficult to get info on) and how his WW still went to counseling. Look back about a page, or click his name following the subject line of my reply (where it says [Re: LovingAnyway].

Here's a quote from Down but not out, from today in GQII:

She is shaken up still from the exposure and I think the OM has now called it off (hence her comment what goes around comes around) but I have not asked her about this or confirmed - I have given up snooping.

Exposure is not a guarantee that the A will end immediately but it hastens the end of the A.
It DOES put pressure on the A.

Sitting around fretting does absolutely nothing to put pressure on the A. You are enabling the A. By inaction you have implicitly stated that the A is fine with you. Is that the message you want to send?

It doesn't matter if you have SAID the words "This hurts, please stop." Your WW is incapable of empathizing with that right now. It is just as effective as if you've smiled and said nothing.

Exposure will get the message through.
It will also change her perspective of the A from a lovely secret beautiful fantasy to a shameful difficult mistake. Exposure communicates in a way that words and tears cannot.

Runnerboy did the best and most immediate exposure I have ever read on this board. His thread shouldn't be too far back.

Here's the link: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2058426#Post2058426


(edited to add the link)

I agree. His was one for the history books.

BFRH,

I see that I have been mentioned several times in your post so I’ll give you my perspective as a BH who exposed immediately. You can read my post for all the details but I’ll give you a few so that it all makes sense.

I caught my WW and OM going at it in one of my rental houses and after confronting them, immediately called both OMW and their employer since he was her boss. Long story short, OMW threatened to throw him out and take him for all he was worth if he ever talked to my WW again. That was all it took for him to drop her like hot potato. There employer also fired both of them. I heard the “ you have ruined any chance we had, there’s no need to go to counseling because it’s over, I’ll hate you forever for embarrassing me and getting me fired, It’s all your fault” for several weeks. BUT, I firmly believe that the immediate exposure and its related consequences are what shook my WW back to reality and back to wanting to work on our marriage.

In fact, in our first MC session which was over a month after d-day and exposure, she admitted to the MC that if we had come to see him a month earlier that she would not have been interested in hearing what he had to say. See BFRH, I truly believe that most people start MC too early. It took a month of exposure, its consequences, and a pretty good Plan A before she was ready to even listen. Most WS’s only go to counseling to appease the BS and to be make peace with themselves that they “tried” to save the marriage. They are looking for justification in their mind to end their marriage and continue their affair with “the love of their life.”

Until the affair has ended through NC and your WW sees your commitment to recovery through your Plan A, MC has almost ZERO chance of having even a minimal influence on the WS. I personally think that you would be better served to EXPOSE EXPOSE EXPOSE and then do your best at Plan A before you ever even consider going to a MC. Most MC’s do more damage than good this early after d-day when the WS is still contacting and active in their affair.

I know it may sound crazy right now, but at this point, exposure will do MUCH MORE for your marriage than marriage counseling. Let me know if I can help in any way.

Thank you everyone for your help. We are still going to MC today. But i believe she is mostly going to make herself feel better.

We will see how it goes.

I talked to the MC more this morning he wants me to wait on exposure because he has seen it make things worse, dunno how it could get any worse...

I prayed this morning to leave it up to God, I have been trying to figure out everything my self, what is the smartest thing to do.

In reality I know God loves my wife and kids more than I do. He has a plan I will wait to here from Him. I will know it will be time to expose when I will feel like I dont want to anymore, but there will be that nagging spirit in my head telling me to do so.

As for California this state sucks. I talked to lawyer today. No fault community property. She can do whatever she pleases. It will end up being 50/50, with me paying huge supports, losing the house and dog

Exposure has never made it worse. There is the anger phase that the WS goes through once their cheating ways have been exposed. Making all kinds of threats.

But they are empty threats.

Exposure is the best tool to end an affair. Not all affairs can be ended. Some affairs are exit affairs and the WS was planning on leaving. Exposure just pushed up the departure date.

In that case isn't it better to end a bad marriage instead of suffering and false hopes?

BFRH,

Please do a search on Mortarman screen name...there was a great thread on how to fight for custody of your kids...which is crucial...so you prepare now for what may (or may not) come later.

Just like you talked to a lawyer...look up his posts (they are a ways back).

Great choice on the praying...because you know God works all the time. There are stories on MB where the WS exposed themselves, were exposed by others...and most of the time, the BS does the exposure...and these marriages recovered, BFRH...have hope. God works.

All the time.

LA

How did it go?

What are your thoughts on exposure with no plan A.....Does Harley address that concept?

Hey Big

Man, I know what youre hoping. Youre hoping that it just goes away. You seem to be willing to accept your wife being with someone else,carrying on a short term affair and then it ends. Then you are hoping that she is disgusted with her self. Then you are hoping that this disgust does NOT fade away. Then you are hoping that she learns her lesson and never does it again.

Wow, thats a lot of hoping.

Guilt fades away,bud. The only thing that will END this affair AND built up your marriage is YOU DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT. This affair is all about SECRECY and PLEASURE. You have to make it NOT SECRET and fill it with PAIN for both your wife and other man. When their relationship becomes painful and not fun, it will end. And then you go to work on your marriage. It MAY go away on its own, but if you don't take care of it, IT WILL ALWAYS COME BACK. Because she will be thinking, "I got away with it once, I can do it again"

And, big, this weight thing, start losing it TODAY. Don't say nothing, just start eating right and exercising. I think its shallow as heck to stop loving your husband or wife because they put on weight, but, I really can't deny that its not the nicest thing in the world for a spouse to let himself or herself go once they are married. It really IS important that you try to look your best for your spouse. Lose it man, there really are NO DOWNSIDES to it. Good luck, I understand your hesitation, but I think you will pay for it in the long run.

BFRH,
I really do hope the MC went well. I personally believe that you are fighting a losing battle until you expose this affair and insist on NC.

When I read your situation, I am reminded of the story of the flood victims who were waiting on God to deliver them. They passed on 2 boats and 1 helicopter which came to offer them assistance while waiting on God to save them. When they died and went to heaven they asked God why He didn’t save them to which He responded “ I sent 2 boats and a helicopter what were you waiting on.” Could it be that God is sending you the answers you need through the many experienced members who are trying to help you here. You have heard many who have lived this nightmare share with you the importance of exposure and still your WW and OM are continuing their affair while you just sit and watch it all unfold. Many times God provides us with the tools and expects us to use them to help ourselves.


Please expose to those who can help you end this affair. There isn’t a counselor in the world that can help your marriage until NC is established. You can either stand up and fight for your marriage or you can sit there and do nothing while your wife plays naked twister with her boyfriend. The choice is yours.

BFRH,

I am a FWW and wanted to let you know that what you have been told here by Runnerboy, MelodyLane, turtlehead and others is spot on advice. What a shame it will be if you do nothing. Prolonging exposure does nothing more than prolong your pain. Nothing else matters until the A is over, except a good Plan A. Have you read all the articles on "How to Survive Infidelity?" If not, that would be a great place for you to start.

I wrote a thread called "Inside the Wayward Mind" which may help you understand some of the things you have heard, or will hear, from your WS. It is linked in my sig line.

I really hope you heed the excellent advice of the vets here who are doing their very best to convince you that MCs are a complete waste of time and money for a M with a spouse in an active A. Your MC is poorly equipped to deal with adultery if he/she is telling you to wait. Wait for what, exactly? Wait for you WW to lose any remaining respect for you while she continues to walk all over you? WAITING WILL ONLY PROLONG YOUR AGONY!!!!!!

Stand up and FIGHT! Get behind the wheel of this run-away bus or you will be the one who gets flattened by it.

PS--about God...GOD HELPS THOSE WHO HELP THEMSELVES!!!!!!!

edited to add...You are looking for a sign from God on what you should do? Well, God put you HERE for a reason now, didn't He?

"Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word"

This verse keeps going through my head. She is still my wife and I have to view how I take every step through that verse.

The MC went really well. She opened up a bit, but she did admit she was just there for me to try and make me better and not for her. But I think the counselor made her realize she is so afraid of staying for fear of repeating her parents mistake that she has put up a wall between us and will not allow me in at all. And I think the A is helping facilitate that wall.

She went to bathroom during the session and the counselor advised me not to expose. He said my duty as a husband is to honor love and protect her and pray for Gods protection over her. She is being attacked by evil in the form of the A. She needs protection from that I know.

Last night she told my sister and my sister freaked which made my wife very emotional. My wife cried for a while and she never cries. We talked for about 2 hours with her head on my lap. (She hasn't been able to touch me with a 10 ft pole). We opened up about everything that was going on. We also just chatted and laughed a lot. It felt like some what of a turning point for me, I dunno for her.

I am going to talk to her when we get home, try and get a sense if last night changed anything. I know its not magically fixed, but it was a step away from the direction we had been going for the last three weeks.

Are you still unwilling to expose to the OMW? Regardless of what happens in MC or what your WW says you should expose to the OMW.

Regarding verifying the man's home address/phone...if the OM owns a home, most state have property tax bills or recorded deeds as public records. If you know the city, you can find the county and do an online search on the county treasurer or recorder's website. Once you can know the address you can find the home phone through the internet or operator assistance.

Or you can call 411 or use the internet to find all possibilites and call each home and ask for Mrs. X. Tell her you are trying to get in touch with her husband and ask if her husband's cell # is XXX-XXX-XXXX (or make up whatever sounds like a reasonable story so she doesn't think you are some nut) and if it is you know you have the right house.

BigRed,

The Devil did not make your WW take her clothes off, take pictures, and send them to OM...and God isn't going to make her stop.

You say that when your sister found out about the A, your WW cried and opened up to you afterwards? That's good. Now imagine her reaction after you expose to more people. This only shows you how exposure can work in your favor...doesn't it? What are you waiting for?

Sorry BigRed, but your MC sounds like a quack to me. It's one thing to pray, but it's another for him to tell a BH to "pray for God's protection over her". God is NOT going to end the affair...only she can. And the reaction after the A was exposed to your sister had NOTHING to do with God, and EVERYTHING to do with exposure.

Call OMW, or your WW is still going to be involved with OM.

How exactly is facilitating her affair protecting her???? She isn't being attacked by the affair, she is PARTICIPATING in it!!!! And you are allowing this by not taking steps to stop it!

Here's what you are weighing against:

Embarrassment vs. STDs
Shame vs. Marital breakdown
Chance to redeem herself vs. continual denial and betrayal of you, your family and everyone you know

You want to protect her from the affair - END IT, stop enabling it! Jeesh, you might as well book them a fancy hotel because that's how much you are encouraging it by not doing anything.

I agree...he should just book them a hotel. Then, he can say "the Devil made her do it, and I need to protect her from the Devil".

I cannot believe you are still not contacting OMW, BigRed. You are about to waste a whole lot of money on counselling with this MC...then, you are just going to have to take our advice anyway...get your head out of your [censored] man!!!!!

I finally found the right number. Im calling it. No answer Ill let you know when I make contact.

You are right its time to expose. Talked to her today again and she showed absolutely no remorse.

Good job BigRed.

I know this is a very hard time for you, and the last thing you want to hear is "I've been through it...been there, done that...take my advice...etc...", but we are only giving advice on what has worked for us in the past. No one here can gaurantee that she will end her affair, but what we can gaurantee is that she will definately have a harder time carrying on with it after OMW finds out what is going on between them. That's where you have to start.

WW will probably be pissed, and lash out at you for (and I've heard it all before) "embarrassing her...making her look like a fool...making people think she's a tramp, wh@re, sl@t...etc". Just remember that she did all this on her own...you had no part in it.

Tell OMW what you know, tell her that you want to save your marriage, then let OMW take care of OM from the "other side"...you deal with "your side". Even with the backlash from your WW, it will be easier to handle ending the affair with people working on both sides of the affair to end it. Without OMW on your side...you are screwed....IMO.

Be sure to give us an update...but, I will warn you again...WW will lash out......stand your ground, and don't take a step back.....until NC is established.

So glad to hear you are making that call! As it was I was SO afraid you were setting yourself up for an even worse scenario. Best of luck to you, making that call is not the easiest thing in the world to do but it sure feels good and right after you do it.

<<Lots!

Charlotte

Your MC has it partly right. You should be praying for her. But the most powerful prayer you can pray is that God will allow circumstances to rise up that will break her (or humble her). I and a lot of others prayed this about my husband while he was wayward. The breaking began almost immediately. Part of your PROTECTION of her as her husband IS to pray over her, but it's not necessarily always asking for a hedge of protection for her.

Bump...


How did you make out BigRed?

BFRH,

I’m glad to see that you are finally exposing to OMW. As a fellow Christian, I understand the concept of loving your wife like Jesus loved the church. I have also learned that the best way to love and protect a WW is to expose the affair. Her affair is hurting her even though she doesn’t understand that at the moment. The best thing for your WW long term is to end the affair and the best way to begin that process is to expose to anyone who can help break up this fantasy. It’s kind of like disciplining a child. It hurts you as a parent, but you do it anyway because you love them.

Just be prepared for the anger and venom that will come your way. The best thing you can do after exposure is to do your best to meet any of her EN that she will allow you to meet but do not apologize for exposing her affair. Remain firm that you will do everything within your power to end this affair and save your marriage, but at the same time, let her see you meeting her needs and being the best husband possible. She won’t recognize it for a few weeks, but if the affair truly ends, she will eventually look back and appreciate your efforts and that will go a long way towards healing your marriage.

One final word of warning, there are no guaranties that your best Plan A will save your marriage, but it is the best chance you have. Please understand that exposure is just the beginning and it will probably get worse before it gets better.

I wish you the best and know that you are in my thoughts and prayers.

What happened with exposure BigRed?...fill us in.

Just keep getting voicemail and I knows its them on the voicemail. Maybe its a old number with voicemail still on it.

We talked to my pastor yesterday. She said nothing. He didn't bring up the affair which kinda bummed me, he laid out what her actions were going to do. There is another pastor wife at church that went through similar situation and I am going to see if she will talk to her.

But yes my major prayer has been that God will convict her and break her down. The only way to save our marriage is true repentance on her part.

In our session with pastor I really confessed all my problems too her. Reading through this site I realized that when I thought I was taking care of her needs I actually had no idea what she needed. I was doing the things for her that I wanted her to do for me. I also confessed about a past EA that I had and problems with pornography. I dunno if this will help our hurt but I believe for our marriage to continue all the past sins on both sides need to be out in the open.

So the next step is MC tomorrow and have WW talk to the Pastors wife. If still no change maybe have 2-3 women from the church talk to her. If still no change then I will start to expose to our family and friends and close people in the church that do not know.

My brother really advised me to follow the Matthew 18 model of confronting sin in the body of the church.

So our marriage needs all you prayers. Pray for my continued "recovery" as far as meeting her needs and not doing any LBs. And help for continuing to lose weight, lost 23 lbs so far (I have found the miracle weight loss cure...infidelity.) She needs prayer that she will be convicted, broken down, and repent of what she is currently in. She talked to him on the phone for 48 minutes yesterday. She is so blind to how this is affecting her decisions. She says OM has nothing to do with it.

Thank you all for your help.

Why didn't you bring it up?



How many people do you plan to have "talk to her?" If this one doesn't work, here's another, etc. etc. etc. You remind me of that long ago commercial.


God helps those who help themselves. This is the truth. In my situation, it was only when I TOOK ACTION instead of sitting around "hoping" :RollieEyes: for an end to the affair that things started to change for the better.

When I took ACTION is when God stepped in and things started to turn around for me. He was waiting. I finally heard. Thanks to
MB.

The devil tried to stop me when I started to expose. LITERALLY. But I kept on truckin' with God right with me and I got it done.

Charlotte

Thinking back I guess I should of but the whole time he was talking I was really convicted about the past things I had done. Things that I had never asked her for forgiveness for.


I think I am helping my self but I am following the Biblical model. First step confront her with her sin. What I did with pastor and what pastors wife will do. 2nd step, take 2-3 people and confront her with her sin. If still no repentance 3rd step bring it before the church ie expose to our Christian friends and family so they can encourage her to repent.

The whole while I will try and contact OMW. But so far no luck which I think is God saying, not yet on that part.. but I will keep trying.

No it isn't.

We talked today. She said she is not contacting him anymore, but it doesnt change her decision to leave. She said once people found out about it was wasnt fun and secret. I guess she had told her sister and brother about it, without me knowing.

I will still keep checking her phone records. She apologized for the hurt she caused.

She said she is not open to recovery because she doesnt think the changes in me are real. She said that the changes need to happen without her around.

So Ill keep meeting the EN she will let me and avoid LBs.

She's lying BigRed...don't believe her. She probably didn't even tell her brother and sister any more than "my BH is such a control freak...you should see how he is watching over me like a hawk...he's paranoid". Talk to her brother and sister about it.

DO NOT FALL FOR THIS [censored] !!!!!!

I'd bet my 401K that Introvert is spot on!!!

I wouldn't bet any money on this. Your WS is still very wayward. All of the things she said are the things that 100s of waywards have said, verbatim. If you read on MB for any length of time, you'll see those exact words or variations of the same over and over again.

I'm a Christian too BFR, and I gotta tell you, not exposing IMMEDIATELY is going to hurt you. I understand the biblical method of confronting your wife, and you SHOULD do this, at least when it comes to the church. However, it is apparent to everyone but you that she is NOT sorry and has no intention of repenting at this point.

Counseling? Waste of time and money as long as she is wayward (or in the wayward mindset). She will not respond.

YOU are giving her a free pass to continue. There are quite a few BH's on here that will tell you to draw your line in the sand TODAY. Not sure that's the way to go just yet, but you should defintitely be exposing and possibly confronting the OM to ask him what his intentions are with your WIFE.

She has said she is not contacting him anymore. She has apologized. Even though it was a weak apology but it was something. It was a "still in the fog" apology. From everything I can tell she hasn't contacted him anymore. The biggest evidence is that she doesn't sleep with her phone anymore. She leaves it out on the counter where I can see it.

I dunno what more to do or what to require her to do. Any ideas?

And for the most part it was exposed, all her family knew about it, and all my family and friends knew about it. They didn't put a lot of pressure, but it was the reason it stopped.


What would be drawing the line in the sand? And who else is there to expose it to?

And for the most part it was exposed, all her family knew about it, and all my family and friends knew about it.
How did they find out? Who told them?
If YOU didn't tell them personally then you don't know they've been told.

And who else is there to expose it to?
OMW.

She told them. I can ask them if she told.


OMW... No point if its over. If it was PA definitely but I wont interfere with him fixing things with his wife.

Just do it man. What are you so scared of?....besides the whole truth?

WW play book:

Claim to you BH that the affair is over and she told everyone that she had an affair.

WW's are known to not be truthful near d day.
Why do you believe WW without trying to confirm the truth?

OMW needs to be told no matter what. Wouldn't you want to know the truth about your own life? Wouldn't you want to know.
I believe you have a responsibility to do the right thing and tell her. To do otherwise is to be an enabler.

any chance that you can make an appointment with the Harleys for phone counseling?? I have heard from others on these boards that a couple of 1 hour sessions did a whole lot of good with coming up with a plan for receovery.

Just a thought

God Bless your path

Being a BH I have always looked at your situation from a BH POV, but reading Trix's post brought to light a whole other issue regarding this thing. If you do not tell OMW you are no better than your WW, in the sense that you are enabling her husband to continue sinning...plain and simple. OMW has every right to know what your cheating wife has been up to with her husband, and you have the responsibility to help put a stop to it. If you do not do it you will have to answer to God just as much as your wife does.

Right now you are just as irresponsible as your lying wife...maybe not as irresponsible as a cheater, but you are now just as bad as any liar out there.

Show some responsibility already and stop being a liar.

We BS's spend most of our days wondering just how the h3ll our WS's can even look themselves in the mirror because of all of their lies, and now I'm here trying to support a fellow BH who is just as much of an irresponsible liar as a WW is? Not anymore.

Not only that, but you have the key to making OMW pain less hurtful...and all you have to do is dial 7 digits to do it. But you have decided FOR YOUR OWN BENEFIT that YOU are more important than the other innocent victim in this situation . You are very selfish...just so you know. You are here to ask others to help with your pain, but are to selfish to help someone else. Keep praying my friend :RollieEyes:

Screw it....I'm out.

Best of luck to ya.....see ya.....down under.

I been reading through the Q and A columns about surviving affairs and dealing with WWs. Not once does he mention exposure.

Plan A is used to separate WW from OM. If that doesn't work Plan B.

"If the first plan (plan A) is unsuccessful in separating the wayward spouse from the lover, "

Direct quote from "Surviving an Affair". Plan A is used and exposure it not a part of Plan A. You need to negotiate with WW to stop contact. "Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespect, and demands." Quote from Q and A.

I am really glad I did not follow all of your advice. You guys have been helpful in ways, but I think you being adamant in exposure is misleading to people.

Read through every Q and A about dealing with WWs. Tell me if you get the impression that exposure is part of Plan A.

I would not mind being proven wrong but I think you guys are misleading people.

Here are just TWO of Dr. Harley's posts from the weekend forum about exposure:

Yes, but you were advising me to do it the day I found out, without ever giving plan A any time. The point of Plan A is to get the A to end a "natural death."

I dont think you should be advising people to expose so soon.

Look BigRed. You have a moral obligation to tell OMW, even if you think that it is "too soon" for you.

Are you really this selfish in everyday life, or just regarding this issue?

LOL, every pastor I have talked to says I do not have a moral obligation.

It was an EA that ended quickly. I would be interfering with OM chances to make his actions right.

I no I am not selfish I tried and got voicemail for many days. Thank God because I would have been wrong.

You don't the slightest idea what you are talking about, much less what Plan A entails.

But never fear, I won't waste any more time posting to someone who is too thickheaded to listen. You have wasted alot of valuable time on a forum where many really do need help.

Introvert, you are bitter it is right there in you screen name.

I hope you can find help for this. You have been pushing this exposure thing harder than anyone. I fear your motives are for vengeance and not reconciliation.

I read all of the Plan A Q and A I know what it is about. Exposure is another thing DR recommends but it should not be used in every situation.

Read the highlighted paragraph on page 83 of SAA.

Quote: "Most affairs last less than six months after they are exposed to the light of day".

You expose to end an A. You Plan A to attract the WS back into the M and away from the OP.

Have you guys read the 5 letters in the Q and A about dealing with WW.

He does not mention exposure once.

If exposure was so important how come he never mentions it??

So, your WW has miraculously went from contact with OM to no contact? Just like that? Sorry, I missed the part when you mentioned that to us.

BTW, most pastor's don't have a clue when it comes to this stuff. They have alterior(sp) motives..."sweep it under the rug, as long as it doesn't shed negative light on the church."

You are ignoring people who have been through this before and your listening to people who tell you that your WW took naked pictures of herself and sent them to OM, because "the devil made her do it."

I attend service on Sunday too, but I gotta say you are being more naive then any BS I have seen here so far.

You are taking it out of context.

He never says exposure is the first thing to do. But everyone on this forums is on a witch hunt for exposure. It is like they get their jollies off of it.

What does my screen name have to do with being bitter?

Anyway...I have no alterior motive with you BigRed.......YOUR WW DOES !!!!!!!

Out of curiousity, so what does "so soon" mean to you then?

"So soon" to me says you don't disagree with exposure but that you have your own idea of when it should be done. Why don't you explain your logic to us...

She ended it, there has been no contact. I stated that a few pages back.

After she is banging OM for 6 months or so, I guess.

And you have confirmed this with OM, OMW, friends, family?

Everyone on the forum was urging me to do it the day I found out. That is "so soon".

From everything I read on Q and A Plan A has to be given time before exposure. Exposure it forcing the issue but part of Plan A is negotiating NC.

Friends and family. I am not exposing to OMW but I guess I could call OM but what would the point be. She has ended it.

Ah there is that bitterness again.

You know, I have a ton of homework to do but I HAD to post to you because YOU ARE DRIVING ME NUTS!!!!!

How can you NOT tell that man's wife about his affair? This is not about vengeance!! The woman has a right to know so she can save her marriage, IF THAT IS WHAT SHE CHOOSES TO DO!!!

LOOK-how do you expect her to do that when she doesn't know the truth??!!

I'll tell you what: NOT telling her is the equivalent of seeing someone in danger and NOT SHOUTING A WARNING!! Like, "HEY!! Bridge out!" Or "Watch out! There's a car coming!" when someone is about to step into the street and there's a car coming that they did not see.

Will you PLEASE tell this poor woman the truth already??!! GEEZ!!



Charlotte

LOL every introvert I know is bitter.

I expect OM to repair his marriage not me.

You act like OMW is some sort of saint who is just innocent when we all know that A's are caused my neglect from the other side.

I owe this woman who neglected her husband nothing.

Well, you totally missed the whole point.

Sounds to me like you just don't give a crap about other humans. Yeah, I gave you a DJ. Well, know what? I don't care.

Charlotte

And I stand by my last post. You really DON'T give a crap. Nor do you understand MB concepts. You'd better go back and do some heavy reading, Bub.

Adios,

Charlotte

Let's get back to marriage building folks.

BigRed...

I'm curious, just how in the world does the name "introvert" convey bitterness???

FWIW, I am a FWW who believes wholeheartedly in exposure...I happen to KNOW that if my affair had been exposed to just OM's parents it would have ended THAT DAY...As it was I ended up exposing myself to my mom...she and Mr. W then took things into their own hands where OM was concerned, the affair ended due to that and they SAVED ME from myself...I think people forget that exposure HELPS the WS...Prevents them from destroying themselves and the people around them...It is a GODSEND...

And BigRed, Mr. W and I have had dinner with Dr. Harley, his wife Joyce, Steve Harley and his wife...We discussed exposure at dinner...It IS a part of Plan A...I've heard it straight from the proverbial horses' mouth...

You are mistaken...But, thank God for freedom of speech, it lets the rest of us know about folks such as yourself...

Exposure gives your marriage additional insurance...2 sets of eyes watching the infidels is way better than one...Not to mention the moral obligation...

What I am seeing here is a man frozen in fear who refuses to protect his marriage...MAN UP BIG RED!!!!

Mrs. W

BigRed, there is no shame in being afraid, most of us were afraid too. But don't bite the hand that tries to feed you. Don't shoot at the helicopters. Your anger and bitterness is very uncalled for and seems like a cover for FEAR.

Many well meaning folks here, who have RECOVERED MARRIAGES, reached out to try and help you. Sure, you don't have to take that advice. But there is no need to spit in the faces of the good folks here who didn't have to help you but DID.

No one was obligated to post a thing to you, but they did because they are good people who thought you wanted what WE HAVE: a recovered marriage. [something you DON'T have]

Try and show a little class by not spitting on the good folks who went out of their way to help you.

Wow, that is possibly the most cold hearted thing I have ever read here.

Riddle me this, you are driving by my home, my house is on fire and my children and I are asleep. Would you ignore us, maybe it was my fault since I left that candle burning.

(Affairs are not caused by BS's neglect, being neglected may be caused by BS neglect, but the Affair is all on the WS).

Is that why you are making this easy on your WW? Because you feel like it is your fault for driving her to it?

school in summertime.

in·tro·vert


1. a shy person.

2. Psychology. a person characterized by concern primarily with his or her own thoughts and feelings (opposed to extrovert).

3. Zoology. a part that is or can be introverted.
–adjective

4. Psychology. marked by introversion.
–verb (used with object)

5. to turn inward: to introvert one's anger.

6. Psychology. to direct (the mind, one's interest, etc.) partly to things within the self.

7. Anatomy, Zoology. to turn (a hollow, cylindrical structure) in on itself; invaginate.




BigRed,

I cannot believe a grown man could act in such a self-absorbed manner. I left this thread a few days ago because of your lack of morals, lack of integrity, and your selfishness. How can you look in the mirror each day knowing that you are a part of hurting another human being (OMW)? You are a very pathetic man.

Your wife will not give you access to her phone records and you are so friggin' naive that you still think she is in NC? This is the same thing my WW told me "no, I won't let you have access to my cell phone records"....because she was still in contact!!!!!! Everyone here is telling you that she is still in contact (because of experience...and your WW's actions) and you choose to ignore us? Why? Because God told you so? This is so amusing to me for some reason. I believe in God too, but that doesn't mean he is going to stop an affair...there is only one person that can do that, and it ain't him. If he could, one would think that he would have not let her have the affair in the first place...no?

Are you really that dense?????

Grow some balls.

As a BH it makes me sick to my stomach to think there is a guy like you in this world that would rather stick his head in the sand than help out another human being (OMW). Maybe a year from now when you find out that OMW caught your WW and her WH screwing in a hotel room, then calls to let YOU know what is going on you will wake up...but it sounds like that is exactly what it's going to take, isn't it?

I'm out.

Call it "bitter" if you want, but at least I'm not a chickensh!t.

Let us all know how that 'burying your head in the sand' strategy works out for ya redhead.

BTW, if you lived next door to a child molestor how would you like it if no one warned you even though they knew?

Chickensh*t was kind compared to what I would say.

Hmmm, so much for the argument of exposure "so soon" as it looks like when you were pissed at your WW, you were fully prepared to contact OMW.

Huh? BFRH, IMO you are reminding me of a foggy WS for saying this...villifying a BS so that YOU can feel better about YOUR decision. Disgusting.

Ok Im going to try and address the last few posts. I havent been able to be on in while.
First of all let me recap because it seems people are posting without being caught up.

7/28/08 Wife says she wants a divorce but is willing to give me a chance. 8/11/08 found out about EA. Wife said she would not stop. 8/19/08 I finally find OMW number call it to EXPOSE for a few days and get nothing but voicemail. 8/20/08 she stops EA. I have access to her phone records, email, and bank account. I do not believe she has contacted him since she apologized. We are going to MC, and Plan A seems to be making changes. She is laughing with me, getting close to me, and has much less anxiety.


Introvert

I am sorry I called you bitter. And I never said introvert meant bitter I said every introvert I know is bitter. But I just spent the last 30 minutes re reading this entire thread. You have been forceful even call me chickensh!t. I just never felt like you had my best interest in mind. I am not a chickensh!t, i tired to call OMW and just got voicemail.

Melody and Charlotte

You have both been helpful and supportive. I dont want to bite that hand that feeds. But I do disagree with some of you ideas. I just want an answer to this...

IF exposure is such an key step why is in not mention in the 5 Q and A under Surviving an affair, Dealing with WW.

On calling OMW

If I ever feel morally convicted to call her then I will. I did try and call her and got nothing. To me that was God saying wait. I specifically asked him that if exposure was not suppose to happen then she would not answer the phone. She never did.

I am not a heartless selfish man. I went online and saw pictues of OMW/OM's daughter and cried knowing she could lose her family as my kids might.

But it is not the same as someones house burning down, it is not the same as having to call police when I report crime. It is a delicate issue. I have no idea what their problems are. I never saw anything OM wrote or said, it couldve been my wife completely pushing the issue. As a matter of fact I saw her last few texts to him, she was practically begging him to send her pics. I have a feeling he was just talking to my W, and she took it over the boundaries.

Is he innocent no, did he cross a line yes, can he repair his marriage with OMW ever knowing, yes.

What I do know

If I had exposed right away my W and I would not be where we are. Plan A is making changes I can see it.

Do the Harley's abdicate exposure, yes. But all the evidence points to the abdicating in specific situations. I really believe BS's should call the Harleys before they expose. Exposure in my situation could have ended in disaster. The EA ending up being expose by my wife herself and she intiated NC. Both my MC and Paster said they had seen similar situations where exposure made it worse.

I am not saying never expose I am not saying let WS's walk all over you. I am just asking that people seek professional advice and give Plan A time and prayer before they expose.

I did a couple LBs last night. Got the kids McDs and had them home late.

But later we looked at houses in the area we want to move if we can recover and we talked til 2 am about her work and what she was learning from the psychiatrist.

I know Conversation is a high EN for her. Im trying to keep it light and fun and non judgmental.

We have a date on Saturday night, bought new clothes went down a pants size, my sis said I looked good. I am going to get ready at my parents house then pick her up and bring her flowers like it our first date.

I am going to take her to dinner at a place we have never been together.

Still trying to think of something fun and cheap after dinner.

Did you cry that the WH could be carrying on his affair with your wife or some other woman? I don't understand your selective morality. You have said all sorts of things based in faith and mortality yet you let this woman twist in the wind and hope her WH will stop his behavior. Do you really care about her as a human being or only as long as it isn't your wife her hubby is boinking? I can't believe your pastors would take an attitude of "what she doesn't know won't hurt her." That's plain sad. It's just as disgusting as the Catholic Church protecting pedophile priests instead of children.


How do you know that? It's an "if" that has never happened. I get that you don't want to hurt the OM's wife and family with this information but your silence is doing just that. If your children's spouses cheat on them when they grow up and you find out about it are you just going to stand silent and pray that God intervenes? Does it matter if the BS is your best friend, or pastor, or a stranger?

Re read my posts I tried to expose and failed. And right now I dont feel exposure is the right to try again. You may be right and my heart may be changed I am just telling you how I feel atm. And pedophilia is not the same as an EA.

If you went to Vegas got drunk, got a hooker, would you have to tell you wife in order to have a good marriage?? While its not exactly the same, OMW does not have to know for things to be repaired.

Ill even bring it close to home, would I have had to know about my wifes EA in order for us to fall in love again??

Let me repeat I tried to exposed and continually got voicemail. To me that was a sign to wait.


I know my wife pretty well, Im pretty sure she would be outta the house atm if I had got in contact with OMW. But you are right it is a big "if", but with circumstances how they are currently I would have to say so far it was the right decision.

You are avoiding the BIG question.

Why do you feel like you are right by not telling OMW....on moral grounds?

I keep saying decision but thats inaccurate I had decided to call OMW and couldn't get a hold of her. I was actually pretty mad that I couldn't.

But a week later my wife exposed it to her family and she ended the EA. It was an answer to my prayer that she would be convicted, she was.

Before this happened I always told myself I wouldn't want to know if my wife had affair, as long as we could rebuild and recover then I wouldn't have cared what originally caused the problem.

I can saw now having gone through it, it wouldn't have mattered to me either way if I had known. It the results that count. Are the results of today because I found out about EA...who knows.

BFRH-- see this is where you are FLAT out wrong. Their marriage can NEVER be repaired (completely) if she doesn't know. Cause ya see, they would be living a lie. He is the only one that knows that. His wife has no idea. SHE doesn't get to decide what to do with HER life based on this knowledge. He (and you) are taking this choice away from her. No matter if they "repair" their marriage, it will be the equivalent of slapping a bandaid on a gunshot wound. Sorry. You're just not getting this.

I'm a Christian too, have been all my life, in fact, my daddy was a pastor. I think you're wrong for withholding this information from OMW.

FWIW, your own marriage is still in serious trouble if this is your mindset.

You know honestly I do not know.

What I do know is that I don't have a peace about continuing to try and call OMW.

I know that every person I have asked who I know has a better concept of morales then I do, says not to do it.

I and not convinced when it is compared to a fire, or crime, or pedophilia. Is it not the same.

Am I willing to call OMW? Yes, I have shown that, but right now I don't have a peace about it, it is not time crucial at this point since my W has ended it, so I will wait.

I really value your opinion. And I did think that letting her know was the right thing to do, then when I tried I could never get a hold of her I called every 30 minutes after work for a few days.

To me that was God saying wait. That is all I am doing at this point. Calling OMW is on the list in my prayer journal.

I believe in waiting on God's timing that is all Im doing.

Sorry to get preachy but I dont know how else to explain it.

And I knew they were home. The freaking OM was online playing WoW and talking to my wife that very moment.

The OM PLAYS wow? What is he, 10 years old?

LOL if he was I think I wouldve killed myself by now. I play WoW Im 28. I introduced my wife to the game , THAT IS HOW SHE MET OM!!!!!!!!

I freaking want my money back.

Since you believe this then your wife should not have to tell you if she boinked the OM.

This is just proof how clueless you are about marriage.

I never said pedophilia is the same as adultery. I said they are both disgusting and clergy who stand by and do nothing to end it are disgusting. If men of the cloth give such advice, God help us all. So apparently the degree of the sin/crime is also up for consideration. We should tell rape victims...at least he didn't kill you.


or it was a sign that she just wasn't home.

Can you read everything before you post. I tried to call for three days at times I knew they were home.

Your W is still in touch with the OM?

Constructive..really.

How would it make a difference whether I knew this or not. Everyone keeps saying I am clueless without letting me know why.

No I was refering to the times I tried to expose. I knew I had the right number and I knew they were home.

Here's why.

Do you want to live and love a woman who can look you in the eye and lie?

Is that simple enough for you?

Red

your are still snooping aren't you? I know I am in the minority with my thoughts of exposing if the affair has died so I won't even go there, but, at the very least, you have to CONTINUE snooping to ensure the affair is actually dead. She has shown you that she would lie, therefore, you are under NO OBLIGATION TO TRUST HER, just yet. Keep snooping, man. Just make sure.

No but if it was an isolated event, and she changed and moved on they she is not lying to me about something.

I check phone records and bank account once a week, and email every day or so.

No but if it was an isolated event, and she changed and moved on they she is not lying to me about something. [/quote]

Yes, it is lying. You putting your fingers in your ears and singing "LALALALALALALA" won't change her lies.

Lying is lying Red. I guess you are willing to accept half a woman. Sad really.

You know you can acess the internet without being at home...strange as that may sound. You said you got an answering machine, but whatever.

I'm glad out of everything I have said that is what you have taken away from my comments. As you implied the OMW is probably some shrew who wasn't taking care of the hubby so it's her fault. I will take your remark as a sign from God that I'm wasting my time. Adios.

No but if it was an isolated event, and she changed and moved on they she is not lying to me about something. [/quote]

Yes, it is lying. You putting your fingers in your ears and singing "LALALALALALALA" won't change her lies.

Lying is lying Red. I guess you are willing to accept half a woman. Sad really. [/quote]

Is there a difference between isolated incidents and patterns??

Of course there is. Each situation has to be handled differently. In this situation was it better that I knew. Yes it helped me change.

But if my wife had a one night stand 5 years ago, how would knowing help me? How would he never telling me make her a liar?

Should you know about every isolated incident of your spouse's life? No. Should you know about patterns? Yes.

I know I know it goes against the policy of radical honesty. But I am not convinced its the right thing to do in every situation.

That was a tasteless comment on my part. I didnt really mean it, it was outta anger and fear as melody said.

I do feel sorry for OMW and their daughter that they dont have a good marriage.

When I feel like its time to call her I will try again.

If you aren't gonna call and expose, I think you should snoop with other methods. Keylogger, voice activated recorder. Again, against MOST others, I understand why you don't want to call omw, as long as the affair is over. (Wether I agree or not is not important, its YOUR life) BUT, you are gonna have to be MUCH more vigilant because NOW, you don't have OMW beating him over the head, actually in a way, becoming an ALLY in your fight. This leaves the danger of him trying to contact your wife again. Catch her withdrawing, weak and wanting her fix, and BAM. Its on now.

You have to up your snooping Red, if you find that youve been REBETRAYED, maybe then you will have a change in outlook.

You know you have to give God time to work on people's hearts. If I had done everything exactly when I wanted to and said everything to my wife that I wanted to I don't think my marriage would be taking the small steps that it is.

In a month I could be posting that my wife felt so convicted that we called OMW together.

I am not going to call atm because a bunch of people online are telling me to. I will wait til I know its the right thing to do.

It would help you to know she could not lie to you.

Lies by ommission are still lies.


Boinking another man is not an isolated incident!


So you diligently defend some of Dr. Harley's rules and disregard other so you can keep your head firmly planted in the sand?

I'd bet anything your wife was in a PA. You will fell 100% better once you REALLY know. I was there.

I have been trying to find a good key logger for the Mac. The one I had she found it, it was weak.

In a month, if you do what you've been told, you'll be posting about how we were all right and it was a PA and your wife was gaslighting you!

Read KOS's post. Just like yours!

It might be serious but it can still be isolated. My head is not planted in the sand.

PEOPLE READ MY POSTS. I TRIED TO CALL NO ANSWER SO NOW I AM WAITING!!!

Of course it is easy to look back and say who is wrong who is right.

Of course its easy to look at someones situation and says its exactly the same as mine. Well they are not.

This is how I am handling it for now.

Red
Spector Pro is the best one out there, around 90 bucks. If thats too much, there are plenty of free ones, look on download.com. No spyware, no viruses and USER rated, which is good. And you can always bittorrent it if you like, but that is up to you.

And some voice activated recorders can be had for as little as 40 bucks. And check these EVERYDAY. I know its scary. Many many emails crushed my heart. Keep checking, you have the RIGHT to the truth.

Do you realize how lame that sounds? I tried to call?!

Please, man up.

READ MY POSTS. I did call there was no answers. I called for three days. I dont need to man up to anything. I tried and it failed. I am not going to fret about calling the number everyday for the rest of my life.

When I feel I need to call I will.

If I call and call and call and call. And I never get an answer will you still be telling me to man up.

If you weren't such a girl you would drive there.

PS. Sorry to offend you girls!

READ MY POSTS THEY LIVE IN TEXAS!!!!

Had you not found out about your wife's EA, would you be here, willing to look at what is wrong in your marriage and figure out how to fix it? Had you not found out when you did and started working on it, do you believe the affair would have just magically stalled at the place it was when you discovered it? Affairs progress or they end. I'm not as sure as you are that your wife's affair has ended, but I am sure that the OMW has no hope of fixing what is wrong in her marriage if she doesn't even know that it's broken.

There is more than one way to skin a cat.

She told me she wanted a divorce a week before I found out about EA. I would still be doing the same things I am now whether I found out or not.

I hear you. I just hope this doesn't backfire on you because we (MBers) have seen this time and time again. I never exposed to OW's spouses because I didn't know about MB. I still regret it. It would have ended with the 1st affair and recovery could have begun in earnest WAYYYY before it did.

I'm still here for you regardless and I'll be praying for you both.

It doesn't matter that you tried. It matters that you stopped trying.

I think the only reason you stopped trying to contact OMW is b/c your WW promised you NC and you feel SAFE...and you are afraid to give OM a reason to contact your WW. Well, I think you need to change your mindset about contact. Even if your WW promises NC, you are still NOT SAFE.

The risk that they will have contact again is high...the risk is even more higher when OMW isn't watching from her end...and even higher yet when OM and OMW don't have the opportunity to fix their own M.

BTW, OM is likely just waiting in the wings, waiting for his chance to reignite the A because he is still in fantasyland. Exposure to OMW is what helps to break the fantasy bubble in OM's world.

As far as a moral POV, I believe not telling OMW is coming from a very selfish place and this is something that you know is wrong...and I believe this is something that you will come to regret once you come out of your tunnel vision(ie, keeping things nice with your WW).

I have an idea BigRed.

If you feel that YOU have no moral obligation to let OMW know that her WH is having an affair with your WW, then why not hand the duty over to someone else?

There has to be a way for you to let someone in this forum know a contact # where OMW can ber reached. No one has to say any names or anything...just one phone call to say to OMW "your husband is having an affair with another woman...online, texting, not sure if it has become physical or not"...click.

Why not let someone else do it for you? Preferably a "vet" whp is better with words than someone like me lol.

I think it's been done here before...if I'm not mistaken.

**Warning! I apologize for the lenght of this**

Redhead-

I usually just read, as I still feel like I’m not as educated about MB as much as a lot of other folks around here, but I’ve been struggling not to chime in as I read your situation, and I just couldn’t hold it in anymore.

My experience: Due to immaturity, age, and lack of bounderies, I had an extended telephone/computer EA (both myself and my H were not knowledgeable enough to recognize it for what it was at the time; H new about contacts). I ended it on my own and recommitted to my H when we got M. I knew that if I was going to M him, that he deserved 100% of me, and I gave it to him.

While I was enmeshed in the 3yr EA, I wasn’t a good GF to him; I was selfish, distant, mean, verbally abusive towards him. I hid how often I spoke with the OM, I hid what we talked about. I bet that H new something was wrong, but didn’t attribute it to the OM, because OM was in another country and there was no physical contact. I still tried to plan contact, though…


My other experience: Due to H’s own lack of bounderies, he found that he made the horrible decision to have a ONS with a co-worker. He fell down the slippery slope into it (flirting, she made him feel good about himself, they were “just friends”, etc), he didn’t intend for it to happen, it wasn’t an EA at all, just a ONS that literally right in the middle of, he stopped and said “I can’t do this this isn’t right”, and ran.

He hid it from me for 1 year and 1 month. I had was clueless.

Let me tell you what I know now. The guilt, shame, hurt, hatefulness he experienced towards his self, while not coming clean, to me festered itself as verbal and emotional abuse to me. He was angry, accusatory, mean, selfish, and emotionally removed from myself and our child. It wasn’t until somebody physically forced him to tell me, that he did.

I was shocked, and physically went into shock. I feel like part of me died, and you know what, it did, the M that I thought I had, it was murdered the day I was cheated on, I just didn’t know it.

I have learned that it was the not-knowing, the secrecy of the both the EA (on my part) and the ONS (on his) that contributed to the downfall of our R. We were both getting needs met by outsiders, and as long as that is happening, no amount of recovery can occur. I also learned that lieing by omission is just as damaging as bold-faced lieing.

This is why the OMW needs to know. She may know that something’s wrong, he may be treating her horribly, she may be being too trusting because she’s not as knowledgeable about PA’s/EA’s as others are. Maybe she knows there’s problems in her M, but has NO IDEA what it is. I do not think it’s up to you to fix their marriage, but I do think it is your responsibility to educate that poor woman. I wish somebody would have educated my H and I long before. We wouldn’t have lost all of the years we did treating each other horribly. We could have had the M that we have now much, much sooner.

I fully believe that my H would have tried to take his secret to the grave, but I’m thankful that I found out, because I wouldn’t have the man that I knew he could always be, I wouldn’t have the wonderful man that I have now. Like others, I hate what the A’s did to us, but I wouldn’t trade what I have now for anything in the world.


Exposure and the NC Letters were key to our (ongoing) recovery.

The fact still remains that you had to KNOW there was a problem before you were in a position to try (or have the motivation) to fix it. Asking you for a divorce was your wife's way of telling you that. When you found out about her affair, you then knew why she asked you for a divorce. The OM has likely not asked his wife for a divorce, or told her of his relationship with your wife. Until she knows there is a problem, she won't have the opportunity you now have to work on your marriage before it is too late.

Hey, I know youre lurking. Everyone that doesn't like to be ridiculed lurks. I did. There are plenty of us who haven't questioned your manhood here. Youre in a tough time right now. You ain't thinking straight. You react with what YOU HOPE and WISH is happening. You might be right, or you may be wrong. If you don't do what you are uncomfortable with, its because you STILL have hope that your best aspirations ARE, IN FACT, TRUE. So go with those best wished, there is NO time clock.

But, whether or not you give your wife the benefit of the doubt, you ABSOLUTELY HAVE to keep snooping. And there is, unlike your OTHER OBJECTIONS, NO REASON to stop snooping. She has PROVEN herself untrustworthy. That doesn't mean that she can't BECOME the worlds best wife, I'm sure thats possible. It only means that COMMON SENSE says that you have to keep an eye on her actions.

I really admire your faith. Faith can be a wonderful crutch when EVERYTHING ELSE that you desire seems unattainable. I know. I'm in a situation where my FAITH is the only thing keeping me going. And I truly believe God will answer your prayers. But, to understand Gods plan for you, you MUST understand what is going on AROUND you. I know your HOPING everything turns out all right. But HOPE without action is ALWAYS JUST HOPE. Now, hope WITH action is called PROGRESS. And I really think, what YOU want is indeed progress. Good luck Red, I will reread your posts when my faith begins to wane.

Bigfat,

I’m a FWW who had an EA through e-mail exchanges. My BH didn’t want to have the EA exposed due to personal reasons and circumstances. The non-exposure to OM’s W definitely had a very negative influence on my recovery and M. Because of the non-exposure, the OM tried to contact me throughout the years. Usually his attempts to contact was months apart, sometimes up to almost a year apart. That kept me vulnerable in spite of the fact that I always informed my H and tried to restrain myself from acting on his attempts, but eventually (a few years into recovery) I had a weak moment and made the very wrong choice to react on OM’s e-mail. It leaded to a 2 day resumption of the EA and was a huge set-back for us and our M. I was back at square one of withdrawal and my H experienced the pain and hurt of betrayal all over again. I know OM would have probably never attempted to resume contact if the EA was exposed to his W in the first place.

Bigfat, don’t underestimate this type of addiction and take all take all precautions you can to protect your W and M. Expose to the OM’s W as soon as you can and if you still can’t get hold of her, try other means to reach her. Exposing to OM’s W will help protect your M and your W’s vulnerability because there is a smaller chance for contact to be resumed later on if both BS’s knows about the A and can watch from both ends. If you don’t do it, I can almost guarantee that the OM will try to resume contact with your W on some point. Exposure will also give the OM’s W the chance to learn the truth about her H and M and do something about it. Rather do it sooner than later. The longer you put it off the more difficult it will become to take that step and bigger the chance that you will eventually decide to not expose to her at all.

If you keep postponing exposure because you’re afraid the OM will contact your W, please keep the following in mind:

1. Whether you expose now or later, there might be a risk of the OM contacting your W anyway, so it’s better to do it now than later. It’s better for her to start withdrawl all over again now while you’re still in early recovery, than later when she has moved passed most withdrawl symptoms and then have to start the withdrawal all over again… Therefore, postponing exposure will only prolong recovery in the long run and the time it will take for your W to get through withdrawal.

2. If you expose and the OM feels angry with your W about it, it will deplete “love units” from his “love bank” for her and that will be a good thing. If the OM tries to act vindictive and revengeful after exposure it will disgust your W and deplete “love units” from her “love bank” for him and that will be a good thing too.

Thank you all for your recent replys. I have been on vacation and havent been able to reply. Suzet yours was very helpful. Things seem to be getting better little by little. She has actually referred to our future together a few times. She says she is trying to stay optimistic.

The big hurdle for us right now is passion or desire. She has absolutely no desire to touch me, hold my hand or anything. I thought of it makes her ill. And I have no idea what caused this or what it means. I think most of it rests on my weight and appearance. Which I am working on (lost 30 lbs so far). But I dont think I will be at an acceptable weight to her for a long time.

Right now she is giving it 6 months. If she cannot touch me or hold my hand by then she says "Its a big red flag for her".

She is treating me better but occasionally says some mean things. My pastor adivse to not listen to what she is saying, just continued to love her, meet ENs and avoid LBs.

I told her I think the best way to restore passion is to go through MB. My question for all of you is do you think I need to buy the course or can we just go through the basic concepts and answer questionnaires?

Right now I think my biggest job is working on myself. I'm working harder, spending better times with kids, and losing weight. The biggest improvement I need is going to be my spiritual life. Im reading the Bible daily and keeping a prayer journal. Some days I feel close to God other days miles away.


Two great passages I would like to share with you guys

John 12:27-28 (New International Version)

27"Now my heart is troubled, and what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. 28Father, glorify your name!"


Jeremiah 29:11-13 (New American Standard Bible)

11'For I know the plans that I have for you,' declares the LORD, 'plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope.

12'Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you.

13'You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.

Big Red,


What's a "big red flag for her"? You are worried about her "red flags"? Are YOU having an affair...or showing signs of one? This is very confusing...she has an affair, and you are worried about her red flags about you? That's messed up man.


This is a red flag....

"The big hurdle for us right now is passion or desire. She has absolutely no desire to touch me, hold my hand or anything. I thought of it makes her ill."


You need to find out what her EN's are, because from what I've learned at MB is that "Affection" is usually a top 5 EN for a woman. And if she isn't comfortable getting affection from you, and it is one of her EN's, then she is/will be getting it elsewhere.....that's what a red flag is.

What she meant was if after 6 months of recovery, as far as doing MB together, dating, and meeting the ENs she will allow me to meet, if after that she still will not let me touch her and she cant touch me. Then its a warning to her that she cannot love me again.

I have no idea what caused this sudden shift in attitude. We made love the day before she said she wanted a divorce, after that it was if I was a leper.

I specifically asked her about affection. That was one of her needs I did meet. But as of now she says she is getting it met by just loving on our kids more.

She wont admit it but I really think my weight is the biggest issue. She says it would make her shallow. Her mom if 400 lbs+ and she is afraid of that. My friends noticed her getting more and more vain recently before D-day. She complains about working with fat people. She was 114 lbs and has lost 10 more. She is so skinny her psychiatrist keeps asking her is she is anorexic.

I really believe she had a mental break down and just looking at me or the thought of making love to me freaks her out. It hard to envision a good recovery without her getting over this.

I am not a giant disgusting dude. Here is a pic of us and I am 30 lbs lighter now. She really needs some psychiatric healing in this area.

Pic

It should be a warning to you as well. My WstbxH initiated his best SF performance ever 2 days before asking for a divorce. I didn't discover the A until the following week. When I asked him about it, he said he was just giving it "one last chance" to decide what he wanted. It was a desperately wayward-ish thing to do, really. I believe he thought he was getting his "closure" from me.

I'd be highly suspicious that the A is still active in your case.

By all evidence the A has ended. My wife is actually talking about our future at this point.

She wants this to work, but is afraid passion will not come back or was never there. She doesn't want to "settle."

I am just having a hard time dealing with the fact that she cant touch me. I asked her if I could hold her hand the other night and she said no. We were having a good time, shes admitted that she is feeling better about things and having fun.

I haven't been able to hug, kiss, make love to, or hold my wifes hand in 6 weeks. Its driving me freaking crazy.

I don't understand it and she has no explanation for it.

As far as physical attractiveness we are opposite in that respect. I see heavier set women and think if they were nice Im sure they would make a great wife. Whereas a big part of her EA was about his fit appearance.

This is going to be a hard hurdle to overcome. She hasnt come out and said it but from what I can tell she hasnt been physically attracted to me in a long time. I have been withdrawing Love Units almost our whole marriage not even knowing it. I played College Football when we met, after we were married I stopped playing but kept eating and I put on 50 lbs and have had that 50 lbs since then.

I wish I would have found MB long ago and known that I was withdrawing love units. It would have drastically changed my attitude toward my weight. I always knew it was a problem, but I never knew it was making my wife not love me.

Can we make a rule against posting pictures? No offense Red, but placing faces to your story makes me all sissified and blubbery.

I hope she can see through her fog and come to appreciate how much you love her!

NP, just thought it was relevant.

If she allows herself to touch you or to let you touch her, her feelings for you will resurface. This is what she doesn't want right now (feelings for you).

Continue with having the good times with her and let her come to you. Meet her needs for recreational companionship, domestic support (help around the house, havoing fun with the kids and her, ...BTW, affection needs can be met without touching, etc.

Don't bring up her feelings or talk of the relationship at this time. Talking of the R only magnifies what she thinks she doesn't feel and can't get back.

In other words, go in through the back door, not full frontal.

Oh, I forgot to add, great pic. You're a good looking dude and she is a neat looking lady. Hang in there.

Thank you for the reply. I think that is one of my problems I cant stop talking about the relationship, because it is all I think about. And I see frustration in her when I talk about it.

As this point would it be considered an LB?

We have been doing well with the Rec Companionship..going on dates, working out, swimming, it just doesn't seem to be helping so I am frustrated.

Ive been helping with everything in the house, and my relationship with the kids has gotten a lot better and she admits to that.

I know I just need to stick with it but I am losing faith because there is no reciprocation.

I need to just be fun and have fun with her and the kids.

What are the best ways to show affection without touching?

Hi BFRH!


This is so very typical at this stage. Pouting, dragging her feet, talking about "settling" etc. It's all part of the foggy post-wayward yuck-fest. Keep doing what you are doing and ignore it. If she really wanted to leave, she would have left by now.

Make sure you aren't whiny and needy- you need to remain strong while showing her you love her and can work through this. It is a delicate balancing act, but what she needs to know is that-while you ARE in this 100%, the door is always open for her to leave. You'll go on and find love again without her, etc (this is shown through body language, and short, non-threatening comments, etc). Noone is making her stay, KWIM? This will create more inner conflict on her part, and is what your goal should be right now. The more conflict she has, the more reality will settle in and she will come to realize that the feelings she is experiencing right now will subside and the emotional connection she once felt with you will return. But, you MUST remain confident in yourself. You must SHOW that you KNOW your worth as a man. Some of this may feel like acting, since you have been dealt a huge blow to your M, your ego, your self-esteem, etc... but you must "fake it till you make it" for a while.

Just don't let the remarks about settling and so forth eat away at your soul. She will be mortified at her ignorance when the fog clears, and will go about making up for it at that point. Until then, though, it's up to you to smile, be a good dad and husband, grit your teeth, and give her a little more time to de-fog and realize what a mess she has made.

I do caution you, though...MAKE SURE THERE IS NO CONTACT!!!!! A sudden, drastic change in "temperature" is a big red flag for a BS. Especially at this stage when she is desperate to replace the "high" of the A. KEEP SNOOPING! If you can confirm NC, though, I would also say that after a few more weeks of this, something's gotta give. She needs to pull her head out and start pulling her weight in recovery or you will be forced to draw a line in the sand. Most times this DOES need to happen...but a good Plan A and a serious show of confidence on your part MUST come first!

TY for the reply. I really need to up the confidence. Sometimes I find my self being a puppy dog at her side, helpless with out her. It pisses me off and annoys her. And I think part of the reason I do that is for some sort of reaction for her.

I need to continue doing what I know is right. Ignore her mean comments and pouty demeanor and keep soldiering on.

I need to not worry about a reaction from her. Which sucks cuz thats the one and only thing I want right now is her freaking attention and affection.

Am I wussing out for letting her have the bed??

I don't think letting her have the bed would be wussing out. It is an act of kindness, IMHO. Others might disagree.

I do agree with LaLa in the confidence and that you must show a good Plan A. It's the first step and the most important. And then if something doesn't give, you have to reevalute and start planning for B perhaps. Harley says men can do three to six months of Plan A. And since you have decided to go this route, make it an exemplary one.

Plan A is first and foremost about you. It is where you become strong. It's about really looking at yourself and any changes you need to make in self-improvement and how you relate to your wife. Notice I did not say wayward wife. Keeping your real non-wayward wife in mind, not this alien one.

Have you read Ark's be the lighthouse?


Yes, I believe to keep bringing up the R would be a difinite lb at this point.

Let her bring it up. And then when she does, only listen. Say as little as possible except to answer any questions. BE A GREAT LISTENER.

If she says things like "I know I can never get the passion back" Say "I'm sorry you feel that way, but I do feel passion for you".

If she says "You will never be able to forget" You say "I'm stronger and more forgiving than you know"

If she says "The OM made me feel so alive and special and exciting" You say "Yes, I can understand that a new person might be able to bring out those types of feelings, and I'd like for you to feel that way with me again, and me with you"

See, you are talking to her as someone who cares about her feelings, but without begging, pleading, demanding.

How do you show affection without touching? With your voice, your eyes, your words, your actions.

When she walks by, don't start pleading with her to talk to you, just say something like "Ummm, you smell nice" and maybe glance up and smile then reconcentrate on what you were doing.

When she does or says something really sweet to the kids you could say "you have always been such a good mom". Then just look away and keep doing what you were doing.

See, it's about being there, but being a little bit mysterious. Always leave them wanting more.

Just like when you were dating them.

To me, that is Plan A.

Expect no particular reaction. And act, don't react.

Hope that helps somewhat.

Red

The best advice I CAN give is ask advice from FWW. If THEY say how your wife is acting is normal or suspicious or fair or cruel, I would listen to THEM and listen HARD.

To find out something you got to those with experience. THe actions of WW and FWW are REMARKABLY similar. Its really amazing. ANd they all thought at the time that they were so unique in their feelings, circumstances and actions. ANd they it turns out its just a bunch of re runs.

We can all GUESS. These girls KNOW.

You really need to look at what you have described as your own behavior, used to initiate a reaction.

This is one thing you really need to stop. If it pisses her off and annoys her...DON'T DO IT. It is not the type of reaction you want, right? Not a good reaction and not what you want.

Plan A is all about attracting the WS back to you. Not about bad behavioral patterns used to get a response even if the response is negative.

Thank you all for the replies. Yeah I am getting into the mindset of work on myself first, treat her kindly, be a better Dad.

I sent her a funny text message while she is at work tonight. Funny quote from a movie we watched last night.

She never replies, but I know she sees them and smiles. In the past when she would get home from work I was almost immediately ask her if she got it. I need to stop that.

When she gets home I will ask her how work went and leave it at that.

One of my big confusions is that one of the things she says she needs is to be dated and pursued. She says I never did that before. But I dont think she is ready for a full on pursuing like I would as if we were dating.

So I try to show her a lot of attention but I think it is smothering her. I need to stick to simple dates, flowers, short phone calls asking how its going, and cute text messages.

And all that not expecting any reaction. Tall order but I just need to repeat that to myself and read your replies daily.

Thank you for you help and I will probably be writing often for encouragement.

The biggest reason I think she is refusing physical contact is from what was said earlier "It will stir emotions in her"

She has told me her biggest fear is that the changes wont be permanent, especially the weight loss. I have lost in the past then gained it back. This time hopefully God willing and with hard work it will be permanent.

So I think she is waiting for an physical interaction until she feels I have really changed. Who knows how long that will be.

Yeah but I would def like to hear from so FWWs about what they believe her motives are for no physical interaction.

No. What is it?

I have been reading NoNames thread. Ours seem very similar. One thing I realized is the confidence and courage I need to gain to set boundaries and expectations.

I was always afraid to bring up the EA in MC because of her reaction. I cannot be afraid of that anymore. I don't think there is really anything more about the EA to discuss other than the proper steps that need to be taken.

In our next session I am going to lay it out. To start recovery we need NC letter, I need her email password, and she needs to erase his number off her cell phone.

And in recovery, we need to read all MB concepts together, fill our questionnaires, and give each other 15 hours per week undivided.

After prayer this morning I realized where my greatest source of confidence needs to come from, God. I need to have the confidence from knowing He is in control. That He can be glorified through this regardless the outcome. When I keep that in mind I worry less and know that I will be less "puppy dog-ish."

My courage comes from knowing as the man of the house this is what I need to do to protect it. This OM was an intruder. I need to cut it off and stop it to save my family.

My first guess? She's protecting the A, or the memories of it.
It's a weird way of being "faithful" to the OM.

And she's doing THAT because either she's one of the following:
- still in contact
- not through withdrawal
- scaredto open herself up to intimacy w/you for fear it will fail

I think its a little of all 3.

We were on a family vacation last week and brought her computer. While she was playing online she started chatting with him. Right in front of me. Even had the nerve to tell me that his wife was pregnant.

I told her "Do you think I give a flying F***". Then after I calmed down I told her I would not be dating her if she talked to him. She said that "I thought you were OK with me talking to him while playing WoW." (Yeah right) So she agreed to stop talking to him even on WoW.

By all other accounts she has never talked to him since original NC in any other way.

I do def think she misses him. His myspace was on her Internet history.

And she has told me she is afraid of us failing and my changes not being permanent.

Glad to see your confidence level rising!! I don't recall, how long ago did you expose to the now pregnant BS? If your WW is still communicating during WoW, she can't defog. She can't concentrate on you while continuing to put energy into the OM, no matter how sparse the communication. She continues to set herself back to day one of WD. She's showing some real disrespect in chatting with OM right in front of you. Time to re expose. OM having a hormonally raging BS is a good thing for you. You can count on this gal to shut down all communication with your WW ASAP. As a bonus, she may just let WW know what she thinks of her. This talk of yur changes not being permanent I think is her continuing to justify what she was/is doing. Doesn't look like her changes are too permanent yet....hmmmm

Good luck. GF

He didn't.

Red
You guys ever consider giving the WOW the boot?? My kid was on that for about 6 months, not the most productive thing in the world and the storys really sucked too.

IMO.

I agree the amount of affairs that happened on WOW is unbelieveable. How can anyone let their WS continue to do WOW after D day?

This is exactly why there are pages and pages of members here telling you expose to OMW to prevent this from happening...

Your WW's WD clock has been set all the way back to day one and if you don't expose they WILL have contact again.

MMOGs are a very bad idea for marriage IMHO. My H was playing one a couple of years ago and we got rid of it after about two months as it was becoming a problem. They are highly addictive, they require a lot of the player's time, and defintely seems to be breeding grounds for A's.

Quote

By all other accounts she has never talked to him since original NC in any other way.


From all the info I've read this year, affairs are like iceburgs, WHAT you see is only a LITTLE BIT of whats going on underneath. The more you SEE, the more is hidden.

I CALLED OMW!!!

Here is how it went.

I called an OM answered

Me: "Hi is OMW there?"

OM: "Who is this?"

Me: "Brian with Citibank"

OM: "We dont have an account with Citibank"

Me: "I am calling about an account in your wife's name. I can only speak with her."

OMW: "Hello, this is OMW"

ME: "Hi sorry for the deception. My name is BS are you married to OM?"

OMW: "Yes"

Me: "You husband plays WoW under "x" name. My wife also plays WoW.

Your husband and my wife have had or are having an affair. I have phone records and emails. They have sent inappropriate messages to each other."

CLICK. OMW hangs up.

Ring ring. I call again. OM answers.

Me: "Hi this is BS"

OM: "Hey" (he knew me from WoW)

Me: "I just talked to your wife and told her that you and my wife had an affair."

OM: "How can you have an affair over the internet."

Me: "Well it was an inappropriate relationship. I have seen all the things you have said to each other. I have email and phone records to prove it. Please stop talking to my wife or I will continue to call your wife."

OM: "We have stopped talking."

Me: "That is a lie I was there last week when you told my wife that your wife is pregnant."

OM: "Please leave my wife alone. I hope you and your wife work it out."

Click. OM hangs up.

We are playing it together now. It as become Rec Companionship. I am willing to give it up. I dont think she is for now. We have actually had fun together playing it.

Should I tell my wife that I called? I really dont think she would find out if I didnt, but I dont want to seem dishonest.

I wouldn't tell her immediately, she will spin into a damage control mode with OM. He will contact her, she will confront you, you will in turn, ask her what part of NC with OM she doesn't understand. You will have to stand your ground with her and firmly state that YOU are standing for your marriage for both of you and you are insuring that the trespassing OM will stay out of your marriage. The rule is simple, he stays out of your world or you are coming into his. Great decision GF

YAY, Big Red!!!

I am SO proud of you!!

Telling the truth is ALWAYS the right thing to do, and it feels great, too!!

I'm not surprised she hung up on you. She will be WATCHING him now! GOOOOOOOOOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Charlotte

BFR, I have also been reading your posts. We do have quite a bit in common. I don't feel I have enough experience to give you advice but we are dealing with a lot of the same crap right now.

You said the other day:

She wants this to work, but is afraid passion will not come back or was never there. She doesn't want to "settle."

When I hear these words it makes me crazy. My wife says word for word what yours said here. When she tells me that she shouldn't have to settle it just pushes some buttons with me. You are right we are going through a lot of the same things.

I confronted her first OM over the phone, like you did to him and his wife tonight. My wife was livid that I did that. Stay away and let her go off. Making that phone call and then calling back was the best thing you could have done. You will see this in the next day or so. After I confronted that POSOM in my situation he sent my WW a text telling her it wasn't worth it.

Having the balls to stand up for yourself is the hardest thing here. I am still having trouble with it. I am not the model for standing up for myself but I am doing my best. The last thing I want is to D. I am now taking care of myself and preparing for the worst. I am really trying to listen to these people, as you should too. They have been here and know what you are dealing with. It's hard but everything they have told be has proved true or worked out so far.

I will continue to keep up on your post.

She'll find out before you go to bed tonight, tomorrow morning the latest if OM can't talk because of the bleeding......

Thank you for the reply. Its good to know there are people going through the same thing.

Until I read your thread I thought she was avoiding contact because of my weight. I now realize its the withdrawal. Which gives me hope that I don't need to lose 40 more lbs to win her back.

And will someone please tell Introvert I exposes to OMW. Then he wont think Im such a wussy

LOL! Yeah, I was wondering if he was around or not. I wanted to look for him earlier but I figured if he was on he'd check on your thread. He wouldn't be able to help himself, IMO.

Charlotte

Great to hear you exposed, BigRed!!!

Way to go BFRH!!!! And no, don't tell your WW. It will be very informative if she finds out on her own!

Awesome BigRed!!!!!!!

I'm proud of you man.

Now...since OM and your WW seem to think they can dupe you with the "we don't talk anymore" crap. DO NOT TELL YOUR WIFE YOU CALLED OMW!!!!!!! That way, when (and I say "when"...because she won't be able to contain herself after OM tells her)..."when" your WW confronts you about how you are "making a fool of her"..."embarrassed her"..."you are paranoid"...etc...you will have proof that NC is NOT in place.

Do not tell her about your phone call(s).


You did the right thing, by yourself and by OMW.

Thank you all for the support and the responses. I def fell a lot better.

So now I am just going to continue dating her, meeting her ENs and avoiding LBs, which are neediness, bringing up the M repeatedly, and laziness.

I have got my boundaries all set for when she makes a commitment to the M.

My MC advised me to wait until she is committed before I lay down all my boundaries.

One of the dynamics of our marriage was my domination and her submissiveness. Over the past few weeks Ive discovered so many things that she was unhappy about and never said anything.

So I think I should wait so she doesn't feel I'm dominating and controlling her once more.

She has agreed to go through MBs, so I think I will buy the 12 sessions on Emotional Needs. But I dont think its a full commitment. She is still in a try it and see mode.

Here is my list once she fully commits to Recovery. Help me with this list.

NC Letter
Erase his number off her phone
Give me her email password
Delete him as a myspace friend
Agree to follow Four Rules for a Successful Marriage: Care, Protection, Honesty and Time

I would take the myspace thing one step further and ban it altogether. It's always been a no-no in my house, but FWH signed up for an account anyway to have an additional means of contacting the skank. IMO, MySpace and the like is just a breeding ground of trouble, and she also needs to take extraordinary precautions to avoid having contact with OM. It would be kind of like keeping her job if she had a PA with a coworker - it's too tempting to re-establish the A.

I gotta agree. There really is no reason for a married person to be ANY social sites. I know because of my age, I missed the internet lifestyle by a few years, but..........why would an adult person want to find friends on the internet????

BFRH made contact!

If OMW chooses to ignore the info that's up to her, but you did the right thing. Next time you have W's phone, just delete his number. Get rid of the myspace account all together.

How can she fully commit to recovery, if she doesn't do these things? This sounds like a case of which came first, the chicken or the egg.

Yeah I will have to think some more on that. It does have some useful stuff. She has lots of our kids pic on there, and she uses it to keep in touch with some friends.

I have always had her myspace password and I dont think they ever used it to get in touch.

I just want him off her friends list, so when she looks at her list she is not tempted to go look at pics of him.

The only reason I am hesitant to do those things is because one of the biggest problems in our marriage was my dominance. It was weird on my personality profile I am 95/100 dominant and she is 15/100 towards the submissive. But unlike most dominant people I am really low on hostility.

I pretty much did what I thought was right our whole marriage, I still cared for her, showed her affection, but I did many other things that drove her crazy, depleted Love Units for so long and she never let me know.

Our biggest part of recovery has to be her ability to tell me when she has a problem and give input. To follow the POJA.

She feels she never got to make decisions. So now I am going to let her make those decisions. I am still going to hold my boundaries. But I will let her make those decisions while having the full knowledge of what the consequences will be.

I was thinking about this last night and I think in order for your WW to be successful with NC for life, she's going to have to give up the WoW...same as she would have to leave the job if they worked together.

In that game you can see who else is online playing and message people while you play, right? Not a good idea at all if they both do it daily and hours at a time...

Yeah def something I am thinking about. I think I will ask the MC what he thinks also.

I just talked to her about the upcoming expansion pack and she is excited about it.

I asked her if it was something she wanted to play together and she said yes.

I think that boundary should be that its only something we do together and I will have to have her password so she can only log on when I am home.

But again with the dominance thing the more demands I make the more she will go into her child-like state. So I need to tread carefully.

We will have to see when we get there. If we are in recovery and she is meeting my ENs and I hers. It prob wont be on my mind.

Come to think about it I have not touched my wife in 6 weeks, when that happens there wont be much of anything on my mind.

I think I need to approach it like this.

"WoW is something I struggle with. I like the game and have fun when we play together. But I am at work I worry that you are online playing and talking to OM. I know you have said you will stop but I still have worries and doubts."

Depending on how she responds I will know if we are truly in recovery or still in withdrawal. At that point I can proceed with asking that I retain her password.

Another good thing I thought of. I am not controlling her or invading her privacy I am trying to make our marriage affair proof.

Im sure I read that somewhere.

Or, you could say it is an EP (extra-ordinary precaution)

This is good. I thought I'd already posted this to you but I guess I didn't. Another thing you can explain is that there is a difference between "privacy" and "secrecy". Privacy is going to the restroom alone. Secrecy is doing something in secret that you don't want anyone to know. What she was doing was in secrecy. There should be no secrets between a husband and wife.

WOW! Did i ever screw up big time.

I was on MB last night at home. She was playing WoW. She asked what I was doing. I told her. She walked near me to do something and started reading over my shoulder. I closed the window.

She went and sat back down. I told her I didnt want to hide anything but that if she wanted to read what was written I would like to explain somethings to her first.

She came over again and before I could explain started reading over my shoulder. I closed the window again asked if she could wait. She went to bed and closed the door.

Then I followed her. And in my pre D-Day way tried to force her to have a conversation with me about it. Good for her she held her boundary but I kept pushing.

She blew up and said I had just "pooped" on all the work we had down the last few weeks.

I really felt like I had just depleted the last few weeks worth of love units.

This morning I talked to her and explained that I screwed up and I am prob going to do that from time to time. She was receptive.

She explained that the problem she had last night was about the forums. And the fact that I was sharing about us and her to strangers who had no idea who she was. She felt invaded upon.

I guess I would feel the same way. I should have never been checking the forums at home.

But that is past and here is where I find myself. I think I agreed that for now I need to ease off the forums.

I know what I need to do from this point. Everyone on here has been truly helpful. I dont think my marriage would be where it is at without everyone's help. I truly thank you all.

But I know what I need to do from here. I know what my path should be. Please pray for me that I will keep it.

I am going to ask the moderator to delete this thread. I dont want her coming on here and reading what I have wrote.

I am sorry if this feels like a rejection to some. It really is not I give my heart felt thanks to all. But I think from now on my recovery needs to be between me, my wife, and MC.

Thank you all so much.

Red:

Don't give into her on this.

Don't delete this thread.

She wants to come read it?

So be it.

She had inappropriate relationships with others on-line and "doesn't want others to know" what she did.

You SHOULD have kicked her to the curb. But we advised you how to start FIGHTING for your M. How to fix parts of you that was broken.

And she STILL wants to play WoW while your trying to figure OUT how to save your M.

Let her read here.

So what.

I may be the best thing that ever happened to her.

LG

BFRH

One step forward, two steps back...

If you decide to ease up on the forums, that's your decision of course but don't be guilted into it by your WW. She continues contact with OM right in front of your face, won't commit to your marriage, won't touch you...and you are the one "pooping" on all the work? Unbelieveable.

I don't need to personally "know" your W. Her actions, or rather inaction, speak for themselves as to who she was/is. Some times total strangers will give you objective answers because you don't want to see the truth for what it is. I pray that you don't put your blinders on again. Good luck to you.

BFRH,

I agree with BR and LG.

Also just want to point out to you...if she caught wind you are being advised WoW is not good for your M here, she probably will gaslight you and not want you here. I'm going to guess she is at least mildly addicted to it(I know several people who are)...then add to it that she loses her avenue of contact with OM...

She is still in the wayward mindframe. Don't let her bully you!

I agree.

You also need to explain to her just how much pain you're in, and that you need the support from others that have been through what you're going through - you aren't on here to talk about what a horrible person she is, you're here to get help, and you have a right to that.

If she's truly interested in making things work, she should be able to understand that. You have not made a mistake by coming here.

Well, if she's reading over your shoulder then let me tell her this....


If you weren't playing WoW (honestly I don't even know what that is, but it sounds childish to me)...your husband wouldn't even know this forum existed.....WAKE THE H3LL UP !!!!!!!

Yeah I think you guys are right. I will not have it deleted. Its something that I need to be able to read on occasion to get encouragement and see where I have come from.

But I do think I am going to ease up on posting for a while. Right now I know what I need to do and I need to stick with that and not be constantly 2nd guessing myself.

I am not afraid of her reading it. I am not ashamed of anything I said on here. Except maybe the spat with Introvert

Shoot, Red.

I just went over this whole thread. Your wife ABUSED your trust in her and you'v spend the whole time either DEFENDING her or pointing out how YOU were partially to blame for her infidelity.

This is clear as day. If ANYONE, with a grade school education, were to read this thread, they would ALL (100%) come up with the conclusion that YOU love your wife and will defend her EVEN when she screws up big time.

Let her read this. If she doesn't understand afterwards HOW MUCH she is CHERISHED, in spite of her faults, well, then.....its because SHE CHOOSES NOT TO.

She's looking for excuses to kick her affair up a notch. NOW, she can mess around because her husband BETRAYED her trust on the computer. Don't let her take it in that direction.

TY for the kind words. But I think my outburst the other night really set us back. Her attitude has reverted to 1 month ago.

Im now realizing it was probably the biggest LB I could have done. I really dont know what I was thinking. Other than I feel so much pressure to be the perfect husband that I cracked.

Keep praying for me.

I had hoped you turned the corner Red. I can see you have not.

You are still going to let your wife, who lies to you and seeks other mens comfort dictate how you act and feel.

You're acting like a scared girl.

How could you possibly expect her to respect a man who she can manipulate so easily.

Go read Noname's thread and see what happened when he finally stood up for himself.

Stop being a doormat.

I am not really sure what you mean.

I did expose and I still have boundaries set up for when she wants to commit.

But in the mean time I think I am still in Plan A. She is still deciding if this is what she wants. She still has no desire to be with me.

So I still need to meet her ENs so that she will want to be with me. I was just upset that I had set us back some in that respect.

Am I missing something, or doing something wrong?

BigRed,

She has no desire to be with you. If you are still sitting there dwelling on this, you are getting nowhere. My WW still doesn't want to be with me physically or emotionally. That fact kills me, but I don't show it to her anymore. Just the other day she said how she wasn't happy and what I am doing wasn't helping her be happy. I simply told her that she is free to leave, I don't need her. She didn't know what to do when I said that. Normally her comment would have hurt me and I would have pushed her to talk with me.

If you get upset every time you feel you have been set back to the beginning you will kill yourself. I used to feel just like you described. Stop doing that and just worry about yourself.

You need to stop letting it bother you when she gets upset. You are doing more damage by showing her it bothers you and then pushing her to talk about it with you.

The hardest thing I have done was standing up for myself. It scared the crap out of me. But I can tell you I haven't felt this good about myself in a long time. Stop worrying about what she is thinking and feeling and just take care of yourself.

I'm not the best one to give advice. But I can tell you that if you listen to what these people are telling you things will get better. I didn't believe it when they told me either but now I wish I had done it months ago.

A part of me is ready to take that step.

I guess I am confused on where I am at or what I am suppose to be doing at this point.

I believe there is NC but she is still in withdrawal.

Am I suppose to make ground rules for completely establishing NC at this point or give meeting her ENs more time.

She said she is willing to do MB.

I guess my question is this. When do I know when it times to say, do these things or I am done?

Bfrh, perhaps this thread might be of use to you. It's an 'oldie but goodie'. There might be some ideas you find useful.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=029805;p=1

Wishing you the very best.

I thought you said she still plays some silly childish game with the OM?

That's NC?

She plays but its not with him. She usually plays with me. Its a MMORPG so there are 1000s of people on at any one time.

Thats a great post thank you. But I think here is where my problem is

Quoted from Ark:
"Plan A is ALL about the assumption that the WS is still in the affair or in contact..."

She is not in contact. It has been 4 weeks since initial stop then 2 weeks from when she talked to him one time for about 3 sentences with me in the room. Then agreed not to when I said I wouldn't date her if she continued.

And she still seems very much in the fog. Still in withdrawal after 4 weeks from a 3 week EA?!!?!

Should I be expecting more from her?

How long do I let it sit in this phase? She seems very comfortable. I do most the housework. I have given her the bed and I make the house a very peaceful place. I plan and initiate all the fun with her and the kids.

I leave her notes and text messages, get flowers, take her on fun dates and get nothing but an occasional "thank you"

I think she is in withdrawal as far as the three states of marriage. It feels like the EA is not the issue anymore. I know it contributed to her mindset but it seems like there is much more to overcome.

So I am acting like I would as if it where plan A. Other than 1 screw up I have done a very good Plan A.

But I don't know how much longer I continue this; I would do it for 6 months if that's what it took but sometimes it just feels that I am giving her time to save money to move out. It does not seem that instituting a "Plan B" would fit my situation.

Again everyone's help is greatly appreciated.

Read the rest of the thread I posted to you.

You might not have the full story, and yet, you might. It matters not. The point is that a solid plan A must be accomplished in order for Plan b to have any effect at all. Plan A rarely stops an affair, according to Harley. A good Plan A followed by an EXCELLENT Plan B can do so.

At this point? You shouldn't be 'expecting' anything from her at all. Her viewpoint seems to be a WW going through WD (We HOPE!) This WOW thing allows her to 'be in contact' without really 'being in contact', you know?.

How are you doing with the advice to focus on YOU? Are you pressuring her? Are you annoying her? Have you quit playing the game yourself? Because, quite frankly, you sound as addicted as she is.

Again, please read the whole thread whilst you are CALM and not trying to 'force' her into what you want. DROP the relationship talk right now. You are wooing her back. Right?

If you don't want her back, then please excuse my post.


Stop that. You are coming off as a pushy guy and you're supposed to be in Plan A. Whilst in Plan A....expect NOTHING.

Honestly? A woman who is in withdrawl from the marriage is a much different creature than a man in withdrawl. Sometimes a man in WD will respond to a whole bunch of attention. A WOMAN in WD (from the marriage, not an affair) wants to be left alone. Remember that if she chooses to re-engage in the marriage afer WD, there will be conflict. Conflict can lead to intimacy, but if she jumps from WD to intimacy....well....something is 'off'.

Work on YOU. Are you finding things you are interested in and persuing them? Are you fit?



If I were you, I'd sleep in my own bed. Plan and initiate all the fun you want to with your children, and INVITE her to join in....but if she doesn't? Say, "Okay" and take off with the kids and HONESTLY have a good time.


Why is that? Can you remind me? Perhaps I got threads confused. (honestly)

Again, please read the WHOLE thread that I linked. In a calm, supportive, 'manly' way.

I think I am doing well with focusing on me. I have lost 40 lbs. My relationship with the kids is getting better. I read to them every night, help with homework. I was going to invite a friend to go golfing. I haven't done that in forever.

I need to be better about no pressure. I do it rarely and its slight. Like this week I asked when she wanted to start doing MB (She had agreed in the past to do it). Last week I messed up bad and tried to pressure her into an argument. At first I wanted to talk about it almost everyday. I am much better now.

I dont think I am annoying her. I have tried to back off in every way possible. Ive been good at not seeming needy but again I occasionally screw up. For instance, last night I asked her if she wanted to meet me at work this morning, go for a run, then go to lunch. Later she said no thank that she wanted to stay home and go to gym. She said "Its not a rejection, I just already had planned my day in my mind." I responded, what I thought was jokingly, "Sure feels like it." But I am sure it came off bad.

The only time I play the game is with her. It is something fun we do together. I have not seen her playing it very often.


Do you mean stop that as in sending the text messages? or stop expecting anything?

I dont expect anything. If I sent a funny while she was at work. I would almost immediately ask her if she got it when she got home. I have stopped doing that.

The text message are simple. For instance, she started at a new store yesterday I said "Have a good day at your new store." or Ill send her something funny like from a movie we saw together.

I left her a note in her car last week. I drew a picture of a flower and wrote "A flower for you..Have a good day." She had it as her book mark for a day then thanked me when she handed it to me in a stack of paper to put in recycling.

And I have seen slight instances where she is entering conflict.

I have been working out a lot. I go and bike rides every Sunday morning and bring her home coffee. I am going to start playing basketball with some guys and start golfing again.


Yeah I have been having fun with the kids. She comes most the time and has fun. She came to tennis with us and didn't seem to have fun except when it was just her and myself playing.

Yeah I am kinda feeling I should have never left my bed but I don't know how to approach it at this point. Ive slept on couch for 5 weeks. Moved all my toiletries to kids bathroom. Basically given her the room, except I shower and dress in there.


I thought a plan B when the affair is still on going. From everything I gather and everything she has said she doesn't talk to him anymore.

I feel like Im fighting WD (from marriage) not WD (from OM).

There has been a few positives though, but Ive found in the past I read into them too much. When we were in Costco she specifically wanted to look at the men's clothes. She picked out some workout shorts and a workout shirt for me.

She does say thank you occasionally.

Just move back into your bed..NOW!

When it comes bedtime tonight you can say "I'm not sleeping well on the sofa and realized it's time I get back in my own bed!"

It doesn't have to be a big deal, Red. It IS, after all, YOUR bed. If she isn't comfortable with it, she can try the sofa.

And move your things back to the bathroom too. No need for her to feel she has your approval of a separate life where she is The Queen.
Just keep a smile and be pleasant; no drama.

Do it!!

We are going to MC today. I am going to let her do all the talking. Act as if Im confident about where I am at and how I have treated her.

How was MC?

Red

I think 180 might be easier for you to pull off. I understand your confusion with A. Your questions make sense. NOw 180 will probably be HARDER for you to do, but EASIER for you to understand HOW to do it.

Youre wife ain't diggin you. What she would find "supportive" in an action from a husband she likes, she finds "smothering" in you. When your spouse can't stand you, all the nice things you do for her are seen as ANNOYING. If her OM acting JUST LIKE YOU, believe me, she would giggle, find his actions CHARMING, etc. Its real UNFAIR, and real HEARTBREAKING at the same time.

I think Plan A is more productive when a wife is simply pulling away, NOT when there is another man in the picture. Because while someone else besides her husband has her heart, NOTHING the husband can do will be productive, or very little.

180. Look into it.

Hey, Just an update.

On 10/5/2008 she went to the Women of Faith conference in our area. When she came home she apologized and asked my daughter for forgiveness about somethings she had said.

Then she had asked if I had bought the marriage builders home study course yet. I asked her if she wanted me to and she said "Yes."

Last night I asked her if she wanted to start praying together before bed. So we will now be praying with each other each night before bed.

Im still on couch and we are far away from healed but things are looking better.

Hey, Big Red, I believe James would call that the "little victories" I agree it sounds very promising. You need to change your screen name, now. You are doing the self improvement thing, youv'e lost 40 LBS. BigBuffRedhead comes to mind. Keep working your plans! GF

Thank you for the encouragement. Yeah I def dont feel like "bigfatredhead" anymore...but its been my nickname since college. She used to call herself "Bigfatredhead's Wife" on her voice mail. That changed once it became true . Now that I am losing weight hopefully the joviality of nick name will come back.

Hello BFRH. I'm kind of in the same position so I've been reading your thread with interest. I'm sure that everyone advising you here is right about exposure but I do understand how hard it is to do something hurtful to the person we love even if it's the right thing to do. I feel the same way. I'm a pure novice here so don't mind me, I just wanted to say good luck and that you sound like a very kind, good man - she'd be a fool to let you go.

Update:

Yesterday she said she does not see us getting divorced and invited me back into the bed. There is still no physical affection nor SF, but as we sat on the couch and watched Dr Harley's DVD she put her feet on me.

For those out there struggling Plan A really works. She said the biggest reason she wanted a D was because she didn't think I was capable of changing.

If I had not found this site I probably would have continued blaming her for our problems and saying she was the one that needed to change since she had the EA.

While she does need to change, so do I and the changes I made were mostly due from this site and the encouragement of the people on it.

She says her three biggest needs are for me to be lead the family in prayer and devotionals, invest into the kids, and invest and enjoy time with her. And I agree with those 100%.

Thank you all again for your prayers and support. I will keep you updated on our progress.

Update:

7/28/08 Wife said she wanted a Divorce


11/22/08 Wife said "I Love You."

We were at the Weekend to Remember put on by FamilyLife Today. We had to write a love letter to each other. I thought hers would be generic and lame. But it was good and heart felt at the end she said "I love you."

She said the biggest factor in restoring that love is Marriage Builders. We have the home study program and it is going great.

Hope this will be and ecouragement to people. MB does work; Plan A works. I beleive with a lot of faith in God and some hard work a lot of marraige problems can be overcome. We are far from healed or perfect but we are working on it each day.

Great seeing you pop in, BFR. I'm so glad things are going well for you guys. It's a lot of work, for sure.... you'll reap what you sowed 100 times over, though. Thanks for the update.

BFRH:

GREAT NEWS!

KEEP WORKING IT!

LG

(Happy Dance)




Mark