I have been on the marriage builders website all weekend and decided to give the forum a shot. To tell you a little bit about myself, my husband and I have been married for almost 15 years and together for 17 years. We married shortly after I graduated high school because I got pregnant with our son. When I was 19 and my son was a year old, I had an affair with someone I worked with.

I quickly got caught and immediately felt remorse and vowed to never do it again. My

husband and I quickly recovered and moved on, almost as if it did not happen. He said he forgave me and I actually think the affair helped strengthen our love.

I did however feel that my husband continued to hold it over my head and questioned if he truly forgave me. Fast forward 13 years and another child later and we had built a marriage in which I had been affair free and happy.

Then last year I started working with another male teacher. At first there was nothing but a friendship. He was married, I was married and we actually knew each others spouses. Something however changed at the end of last year. Talking turned to flirting, flirting turned to feelings and I think we all know how this ends.

He ended up confessing to his wife and she told my husband. I was in utter shock for so many reasons. I did not now how I felt, I did not know why I did what I did, my husband hated me, my children were ashamed of me. My husband immediately kicked me out and told me that if I even contacted the other man that he would never even consider giving us another chance. My children also threatened to never see me again. This was enough to scare me and I have not had any contact with the other man.

I did go through a grieving period but felt extremely selfish and guilty. I did not know at this time that this was natural. All of this happened right before Thanksgiving and Christmas. About a week after the incident my husband agreed to go to therapy with me. We really started communicating and I tried to be completely honest with him about everything. We were doing and sharing emotions we hadn't in a long time. A couple weeks before Christmas he asked me to move back in.

We even went on a family trip together right after Christmas. I have continued to look at who I am and really try to improve myself and my marriage. This story however, does not have a happy ending...yet.

The night we got back from our trip my husband sat me down and told me he was moving out. He said that he was just putting up a front for our kids during Christmas and it was over. He was very firm and seemed cold and unwilling to compromise. In shock and confused about all of the breakthroughs and progress we had made, I did not understand and still do not. This was a week ago.

While my husband did tell me that he just needed his space and time to think, I am crushed and so are my children. He no longer wants to go to therapy, in which we just started to really make progress in. I am just so confused!!! I have completely ended my affair. The other teacher was moved to another school. I am totally remorseful, and have taken complete responsibility for my actions but none of this is enough for my husband. He says he can't get over the fact that I have now done this twice and he can't get past the pain and memory of the affair.

I know however that the last 8 weeks we have shared were not a sham. I just don't understand how all of the sudden he wants to give up. I still love him and I know he still loves me. I just don't know what to do and where to go from here.

Hi fifteenyears, welcome to Marriage Builders! Can you do us a favor and break that down into paragraphs? It is extremely hard to read like that. thanks!

The basic problem is that he has no reason to believe that this won't happen again. The first affair was swept under the rug [you even state it was good for your marriage ] and now nothing is really being done to address your issues. The problem is that you have inappropriate boundaries with men. Where has that been addressed here? What will protect him from another affair?

See, your remorse is not enough. It was not enough to stop a 2nd affair and it won't be enough to prevent a 3rd affair. He is not safe with you until you take steps to eliminate the conditions that led to the affair.

It takes about 2 years to get over most affairs and sometimes the resentment of 2nd affair is just TOO MUCH to get over. His emotions are telling him this is too much. And his emotions might be right.

What steps did you take to EARN his forgiveness? It sounds to me like this was just swept under the rug.

I would read this article. This might help you understand what the real problem is and how to earn your husband's forgiveness:

Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?

For the first affair, not a lot was done therapy wise but I did everything to earn my husbands trust again. I did not go out without him. I got rid of friends who were bad influences. I tried to show him how much I loved him. I quit my job. I was totally and completely honest with him about everything I did. I took edge precaution not to flirt or put myself in a tempting position with another man. I never however dealt completely with the reason why I cheated in the first place.
And for 13 years I was faithful and happy. The second affair really caught me off guard and by surprise. Before I even realized it I was emotionally and physically involved with someone else.

You said that he will not feel safe until I have taken the steps to elliminate the reason for the affair. What are these steps? I am going to therapy and dealing with my issues like having boundries with men. I have been writing letters and poetry to my husband, I am readings How To Survive and Affair. I have been on this website all weekend trying to find ways to better my marriage, myself, my huband. I'm not sure what else to do. Are you suggesting that I give up on my marriage? Just let him give up?

Yet here is what you told us in your first post:


So no, nothing changed. You had this affair because of your inappropriate boundaries with men. You allowed another man to meet your needs. TWICE. You have done this to your husband TWICE.


First off, I would put off therapy, because it is a distraction frm the real problem. Instead focus on ways to make your husband feel safe. There is nothing here that would assure him he is safe. I would honestly examine the conditions that led to this affair [ie: flirting, allowing men to meet your needs, etc] and acknowledge this to your husband. Tell him your plan to make sure it never happens again.

Some waywards make up a list of extraordinary precautions and present that, along with a PLAN for recovery to their spouse. EP's protect the spouse from a repeat affair. That is where I would start.

Your heart is in the right place, fifteenyears, the only thing missing is a PLAN to protect him from a repeat. And I am sure he is completely discouraged by the fact that you are going to therapy instead of fixing your marriage. I think he might change his mind if he sees a viable plan.

Have you answered all of your husband's questions about the affair? Does he feel like he has the full truth?

MelodyLane,

You are really asking me some tough questions but I appreciate them because these are things I have not truly thought of. I honestly though therapy was a way to deal with at least some of the issues of the affair.

I have been trying to answer all of his questions very openly and honestly. I have been trying to figure out exactly why I let another man fill my emotional needs more than once. I have expressed these thoughts with my husband as well.
What I have not done is actually write down what I am going to go to make sure this never happens again. I am going to do that right away.

Can you answer another question for me? What is with all of the shortened lingo on this forum ex: EP's for Emotional Priorities. I get that one but I can't figure them all out and haven't found anywhere on this forum to explain. This is my first time ever on a public forum so I am still trying to figure out the tricks.

Dr Harley is a clinical psychologist who specializes in infidelity and here is what he says:


In other words, we know why you have affairs. You probably have friendships with men [a big no no for a married person] and have inappropriate boundaries with them. You told us in your first post this very thing. You flirted with this man, which is a form of courting, and you allowed him to meet your needs. So 2 of the conditions that led to this affair are: 1. opposite sex friendships and 2. flirting with men.

Those are 2 conditions that you put on your "EP" list. [extraordinary precautions]


And this is what has scared him off, I assure you. We don't need to know WHY, we just need to know you will STOP IT. If I were him, and you told me this and were off going to therapy, I would give up too. He just needs to see a real action plan. And I would lose the therapy. That is just a distraction at a time when you need to focus on your marriage.


Good girl! We will help you with this. I will post a list of EPs and you can use that as a template.

Another thing you can do on your own is to tell your families the truth. If that has not been done, it will go a very long way in assuring him you are truly remorseful about the affair.

Also, there are some things you said in the first post that would send most betrayed spouses running. I am going to point them so you don't say them to your husband again.

1. "My husband and I quickly recovered and moved on, almost as if it did not happen. He said he forgave me and I actually think the affair helped strengthen our love." <----don't tell him that an affair "strengthened your love." An affair is a HUGE LOVEBUSTER and only erodes love. Your love was strengthened IN SPITE OF THE AFFAIR. When a BS hears comments like that they believe the WS thinks the affair is a good thing

2. the issue of forgiveness. Make sure you understand that forgiveness is not an entitlement. It has to be earned. The reason your husband did not forgive you before is because you didn't earn it. He needs to know you will do what it takes to EARN IT and that you know it is not an entitlement.

3. the trauma of the affair will not go away overnight. Even under the best of circumstances, it will take about 2 years. So you will have to be patient with him and show compassion for the trauma that has been inflicted upon him.

ep=extraordinary precautions
ww=wayward wife
WH=wayward husband
mb marriage builders
DD= darling daughter
DS= darling son
ap= affair partner
om=other man
ow= other woman

It's list shorthand so we can type faster.

CV

The second affair really caught me off guard and by surprise.

Wow, something new in the world of adultery!

"Off guard" and "surprise" can be terms used to describe skidding on ice while driving, or stumbling over a child's toy. Thay cannot be applied to DECIDING to remove one's clothing, and point one's heels at the ceiling while POSOM enjoys what was intended to be solely the rights of your husband....FOR THE SECOND TIME!!!!

There is NO reason for your BH to believe:

• you have any idea of the extent of your betrayal
• you are "sorry" about anything beside being caught
• there is any chance you won't be "surprised" a third time in the future.

You have massive amounts of self-repair to do before even considering asking BH to work with you to repair your marriage. The tools to start the necessary work ON YOU are on this site. Get to work!

You can consider this a very good representation of what your husband feels so I would read this very carefully. He has no reason to believe you won't be "surprised" again. And then his life is destroyed .................again. But it wont' be a "surprise" to him if it happens again, so he is just protecting himself.

[video:youtube][/video]

Infidelity: What every couple should know.


What every MB forum poster should watch.

Here is an example of some extraordinary precautions that might fit your situation. These are things you should do voluntarily to make sure you don't have another affair. This is the kind of stuff your H needs to see, an ACTION PLAN.

A) Change cell phone number and give password & account access to your spouse.
B) Change email account.
C) Eliminate all social networking accounts (i.e., Face book, Classmates, My Space, etc.)
D) Elininate all opposite sex friendships - NEVER be alone with a member of the opposite sex
E) Never go out in the evenings without my spouse
F) List out passwords for all business and personal computer logins, and any other passwords my spouse does not have access to.
G) Give my spouse access to any banking/financial accounts, business and personal.
H) Install software that tracks all internet use, giving my spouse administrative access.
J) I will contact an attorney that will work on my spouse�s behalf and write a post-nuptial agreement.
K) Offer to move out and allow my H to move in, since I am the reason he is losing the right to live with his own kids
L) Confess my affair to our families and make sure they don't blame him for the state of our marriage.
M) Never flirt with men, have personal discussions, and never go out alone, even for business lunches

Fantastic!
This was GREAT

Your only hope at redemption was to get caught.

Your husband loves you.
That's the problem.
He does not know how to reconcile his love for you with your second betrayal.

Right now, you don't know how or why you had your SECOND adultery.

Best advice this side of the Rockies:

Call for an appointment with the Harleys.
You're a 2 time 2 timer .... you need the actual professional advice from the BIG GUNS.

Scheduling an appointment *** LINK ***

*** LINK *** to abbreviations

He does not know who you are.
The wife he thought he had does not exist.
He realizes he is married to a woman who is willing to cause him immense pain ... twice!

You have no idea the damage you've done.
Watch that 30 minute video I posted.

Fifteen, good to see you posting on your own thread! Welcome to Marriage Builders! Listen closely to MelodyLane and the other posters here - they will give you advice you should not ignore. You can't know this, but some of our best posters are here and are advising you - this is rare on the weekend. Don't take their words for granted.

We have another poster on this site right now who is trying her darnedest to avoid responsibility for her affair. It's refreshing to see that you are willing to listen.

Stay with us. You've come to the right place.

AFFAIR #1
AFFAIR #2
Since you have had TWO affairs with co-workers, I would also make damn sure you don't work with men again. Your H is not safe unless that hole is plugged.

EPs - Extraordinary Precautions. We have a thread that defines the most common abbreviations. Here you go: Here

Is is fair to ask my husband to set up extraordinary precautions as well? While I am the one who cheated his is also very flirty and has tried to make me jealous in the past with his flirting. He has also told me a number of lies in the past that have broken my trust in him. While I am almost positive he has never cheated on me, even after two affairs I have doubt in him. I dont know if this is because of my own guilt or not. What can I do about this issue?

Fair? Sure. Wise? No.

He's not at all certain he wants this marriage.

Perhaps you ought to concentrate your efforts on YOUR side of the street?

You can deal with his precautions later .... when he's decided you are safe for him to remain married to.

Sheesh !

Did your H catch you, or were you caught by someone else and then your A subsequently disclosed to your H?



So, your H was unaware of the second A until someone else disclosed it to him?

Yes, I'm going somewhere with these questions. I was twice betrayed myself.

His flirting did not destroy your marriage and your children's family. YOUR AFFAIRS DID. Your actions have destroyed the lives of 4 people. And you want to talk about his faults? Are you kidding? If you want to save your marriage, you need to concern yourself with the immediate damage and stop focusing on his minor faults.

Wait until the bleeding stops. See, your knifing victim may not have been perfect - none of us are - but it might be helpful to wait until he stops bleeding out from the brutal knifing you just inflicted on him. His flirting is something that has to be addressed IF YOU EVER GET HIM BACK. But that won't be an issue if you don't get him back.

You do understand you don't have any leverage right now, right?

When someone is truly remorseful for the bad things they have done, they don't tend to CITE the wrongdoings of their victims.

Put more simply, true remorse is taking accountability for one's OWN crimes, not keeping score on OTHERS. Stop taking your H's inventory and take your own. Doing the former WILL NOT attract him back. It will tell him that you are not really sorry.

When I see a wayward cite the wrongdoing of others it makes me question their sincerity.

Or, their common sense.

What say you, fifteen years?

Fifteenyears,
I have been married for 10 years this March.
We have 3 children; my wife had an affair....
She started going to counseling to address her own issues, and asked me to go to counseling to address mine....
My wife thinks that therapy is the answer. She even agreed to see a Christian Marriage Counselor; but so far she hates the idea of following the recovery plan outlined in book Surviving an Affair.
So, I see all of her actions as meaningless; and I filed for divorce to protect myself from her. I decided that I could no longer deal with the pain she causes by her hurtful actions.

when I watch movies or tv, and if there is a sex or adultery scene I have images appear in my mind of my wife and her affair partner having sex.
I have had bad dreams of my wife lying to me and leaving our family.
I think about the 3 children we had together, I helped deliver all of them....I wiped my wifes bottom when she was unable to ...her body was special to me, something another man shouldn't have his hands all over. It breaks my heart that my wife just gave her body to him...
I have had difficulty concentrating on day to day tasks, my small business has fed clothed and housed our family for 6 years, and I'm about to go bankrupt because I was an emotional wreck for 3 months.
I was a marathon runner, I ran a half marathon nearly every weekend...for the past 4 months I have difficulty sleeping, I rely on sleeping pills and anti anxiety prescriptions to help me function...
Sometimes I wonder exactly what my wife did with this man, but I would rather not know the details; I can't emotionally handle the details.

I mention the above so you can understand maybe some of the things your husband is going through. Affairs are deal breakers.

A few of your sentences are....flawed. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and not call them disingenuous and self-servingly deceitful, and I've taken the liberty of editing your statement for veracity:

...even after because of my two affairs I have doubt in him. I don't know if this is because of my own guilt or not.

Now, isn't that better?

Me to my FWW of 15 years upon discovery of her long term affair: "I will forgive you and work to make us better, but know this, if you do it again you're out."

I have to believe she believes me when I said that.

You may not have any conception of the destruction you caused because your first tryst was simply swept under the rug.

I congratulate your husband who kept strong during the holidays so not to ruin them despite he being dead internally.

You have some real work here.

Unfortunately you have put you and your husband at risk for STD's. At the very least the both of you should be tested. These are just some of the consequences of affairs. You were given the gift of forgiveness the first time. Surely you must have realized that a second emotional and physical affair would probably end your marriage so why did you risk it?

HDW,

Your story sounds so much like my husbands and it breaks my heart to know your pain and how similar it is to my husbands. All I want is for him to be happy again and it kills me that I am the cause of his pain. It kills me to see your pain and how it is destroying you. I am so sorry. I know those words don't mean much but they are sincere.

Everyone else,
It has been very difficult to read a number of the threads on this post. A lot of you have questioned my sincerity and desire to truly change as a person and for my family.

Though it has been hard, I have taken everything good and bad to heart that has been posted on this site. I was and am wrong to point out my husbands wrongdoings because no matter what they are they will never be as bad as what I did. The pain and guilt that I am feeling right now is only a fraction of what my husband is feeling.

I do realize this and want more than anything to change. Even if I lose him, for his future and the future of our kids, I know that I have to change!! Please don't mistake my honesty for not truly being sorry. Please do not think that I am not going to do everything within my power and the Recovery Plan to make things right.

Wrong.

What he NEEDS is to feel safe and protected.

What you "want" is of no importance.

15Y - think about the difference between a need and a want.

You "need" to come up with a plan.
All this 'feelings talk' is getting you nowhere.

I suggested you contact the Harley's for an appointment.
Why don't you do that?
You cannot wish/want/desire/hope this better.

You NEED a plan.

Scheduling an appointment *** LINK ***

fifteenyears, that is all we need to hear. It is helpful that you are so honest with us so we can tell you how your thinking is perceived. If we see it that way, it is very likely your husband does too.

I would pay extra special attention to Neverguessed's post because I believe he expressed what your H is feeling. Your H does not see a real solution here. There is no PLAN to protect him from another affair. He sees you saying you don't know why it happened and sees you going to therapy. He sees no solution in sight so he has given up. As he should.

My suggestion to you would be to write him a letter and let us help you with it. The letter should tell him WHY you had the affairs [poor boundaries] and what you intend on doing to prevent a repeat affair. Tell him you will do everything to protect him in the future. In the letter, I would express your understanding of how devastating your affairs have been to him and that you know now that it takes 2 years to recover.

If you show empathy for his pain and an understanding of what really happened, along with an ACTION plan for recovery, I think he might reconsider. But he needs to see ACTIONS, not words.

"make things right"....define what you mean by "right".

Very often wayward spouses have such the sense of entitlement that they think they get to define what's "right" and what's wrong. Perhaps a part of overcoming that (as you "CHANGE") is accepting that what's "right" might just be accepting that your husband is divorcing you, being gracious about such decision, agreeing to very favorable terms in as fast a divorce as he wants and giving him a wide birth (space from you) if that's what he wants. I hope it won't come to that and you and he can work MB and recover your marriage...but it's not necessarily the "right" thing for your husband.

Remember too...statistically, a significant of amount of divorces are called off at the very last minute before the divorce decree is signed (so you can't waver until the actual end). Also a fair amount of divorcees end up remarrying their spouse (even when it's over...couples and families find a way to bring it back together and feel a NEW relationship and marriage is the path to recovery). If you truly change anything is possible. How big is your God?


To many a second affair is a pretty good indication that you're a serial cheater. Judging by your actions (which is the only way anyone can really assess someone's character) the "Once a [serial] cheater...always a [serial] cheater" seems to fit. However, personally...I might cut you a break on what you did as a 19 year old married woman and pretty much count this as your first adult infidelity. Heck, I didn't get married until I was 30 and the stupid stuff I did when I was 18-30 I'm glad no one is holding against me today. I'm not excusing it...just trying to give a little perspective. You're about 35 with several children looking to you for moral guidance. Whether you recover your marriage or not...this readiness to "CHANGE" you speak of (again your actions are what are more important) can and will be quite achievable and valuable to you and them no matter the outcome. REPENTANCE = CHANGE and repentance is a gift from God that will benefit you and yours for years to come and hopefully it will be enough to impress your husband to give you another chance.

Mr. Wondering

Hi 15years. Glad you started your own thread to get some help.

Have you offered your husband your cell phone, your email, your passwords ? Have you asked him what he needs to feel safe enough to even give this a try ????

Have you listened to him without saying, "Yes, but you...." ? Have you told him every day, many times a day that you are sorry ?

Find out what will make him feel safe and then DO those things. And if he adds more things to his safe list, then DO those things too.

I do realize this and want more than anything to change.

I'm not sure you understand what "anything" involves, but taking you at your word, let's get to work.

1 - Research this site and find a copy of a "No Contact" letter. You should personalize it with your names, etc, and hand-write it. In summary it says, "POSOM, I was wrong to engage in an affair with you. I will be spending every effort to repair what I did to my family. Do not ever again contact me by phone, e-mail, Facebook, or in person." Give the handwritten copy to your BH, with an addressed envelope, and ask him to read it, seal it, and mail it.

2 - Quit your job. Today.

3 - Make an appointment to get tested for STD's.

4 - Expose your own infidelity to your family, your in-laws, all your friends and acquaintances, your clergy, etc. Explain what you did, and enlist their support in helping you maintain the barriers you will be setting up to ensure it never happens again.

These tasks should keep you busy for the next two days. Post here on your progress, and LISTEN to the veterans here, without question.

*** LINK *** to sample NC letters

I have already offered to give my husband all of my information. He already has my email addresses on his phone. I have gotten off of FB, and my school email is being monitored by the district. Three weeks after the affair my H and I sent a letter to the OM. I have already been tested for STD's per my husbands request and my husband told both of our families everything the day that he found out. All of our friends, families, and all of my Co-Workers (entirely different story)know about the affair.

I told my husband that I would get a copy of our cell records from now on and he could do anything he wanted to check up on me. He said that he did not want me to feel like I was living like a prisoner for the rest of my life. The thing is, I don't care if I live like a prisoner. I deserve to live like a prisoner for what I have done. I wan't him to check up on me, to feel safe.

NeverGuessed, the only thing from your list above that I have not done and cannot do is, quit my job. The OM has been moved to another school and level completely. There is really no way that I could or would ever see him again.

I know this is only the very beginning of what I can do to "change" my behaviors. I have written out a letter with a PLAN and EP in it. My H however has requested right now that we have as little contact as possible. He says he needs his space to think. So do I respect that space and wait to give him the letter or do I go ahead and give it to him as soon as possible?

Mr. Wondering,

I don't know what "right" is. I agree with you that if my husband wants a divorce I have to respect this and I will. I appreciate and respect what you are saying. I understand that it is so much more than what I want and actions speak louder than words. That is why I am on this site and this forum. That is why I am reading How To Survive an Affair right now (my husband already read it). That is why I have already set up EP and boundaries for myself.


No matter what I know I have a long road ahead of me and am already trying to fix myself but still have a million miles to go.

Do you mean Dr Harley's Surviving an Affair?

I still recommend you quit your job. If there are no men working there now, there are likely to be at some point in the future.

Find a job with women.

Also, don't just offer him your info - give it. Make him a list of all info and passwords, so if he chooses to he can check at his leisure. I recommend putting GPS tracking on your phone, if it doesn't already have it, and giving him the info for that, too.

15Y,

One of the details I picked up on was that you went to counseling with your H and felt you were doing well. Did your H feel that the counselor was taking your side or shifting the blame onto him.

Have you asked your H how he really feels?

God Bless
Gamma

Gamma,
Yes, at first the counceling seemed to be going well. My H said it made him feel better and he respected my honestly. At our last session however he felt like he was being picked on. My husband and I have had a lot of conversations and I have listened to his needs. For the past six weeks I have been doing anything and everything he has asked. A week ago today however he decided he needed some space and moved out. He told me that he was really confused and he could forgive me but he cannot forget and this is what is killing him right now.

Yes, Surviving An Affair. That us how I found the website.

15Y,
Good for you for the exposure, NCL, and STD testing. As extreme as it sounds today, you (and your BH) will learn that you will eventually need to transfer to a different job-site, because every time you visit the staff cafeteria (where you chatted with "him"), or walk past a classroom (where "he" taught) you will be reminded of the time you were besotted with another man, and acted on that impulse. (BTW: My FWW had her fling with a retired fellow-teacher as well.) If POSOM has moved on, for the moment I think you have other things that can be pursued. But start researching the transfer process....

You said your husband has "forgiven". No, he has not. "Forgiveness" implies NOT taking action against the one who harmed us. He will not be able to "forgive" until the anger/disgust he currently feels has abated. Right now he's subordinating the various forms of acting on those emotions to his opportunity to effect withdrawal from you. Read through this thread; it might help you (and him):

"Forgiven" Thread

That is usually how men feel in counseling. That is the difference between Marriage Builders and traditional counseling. MB has an actual action plan that addresses and resolves the problem. Whereas going to counseling does not solve the problem. They have no plan.

I am hopeful if you go to your husband with an actual PLAN that focuses on protecting him and changing your actions, he might reconsider.

Today is my husband's birthday and I asked him If he would allow me to give him a letter tonight. He said yes. In this letter I have included my EP's, my Plan of Action for recovery, An explanation of why I did what I did, and I few other things I felt necessary to include. I am asking anyone and everyone to read it and give me your advice and opinions. The same advice and opinions that have begun to change who I am and the way that I think the past few days.

Thank you!


The letter is posted below:


1-10-12
Happy Birthday Sean! I wish I could grant you a birthday wish and take away all of your pain. All I have for you this year is this letter. I am asking that you read this letter carefully and take everything in it under consideration. I think you will find that this letter is very different than any one I have ever written to you. See this letter is my PLAN of action that I am going to take to ensure that I will never hurt you or my children again. Even if you do decide that it is over, I am going to continue with this plan no matter what.
What I have come to realize is that you no longer know who I am and the wife you thought you had does not exists anymore. This is true, and it is sad that what we had is gone because of me. But I am working to replace the old me, with a better, more honest person. My greatest desire is that through my changes we can and will have happy memories again. I have also come to realize however that it is not what I want that matters. It is what you want and need. I however, am not ready to throw in the towel and WILL DO WHATEVER IT TAKES AS LONG AS IT TAKES TO MAKE OUR MARRIAGE WORK!
Desperate for help and answers I got on the Marriage Builders forum. If you would have asked me a few days ago about it, I would have said it was awful and I am never going back on it. But I think that God sent me to that site because he kept luring me back to it. I posted our story on the forum and almost immediately people started responding. They were not however the responses I expected to get. These people were brutally honest with me about what I did. They were asking me very hard questions and analyzing everything I said. They told me that you no longer felt safe with me and I broke you and they understood exactly why you left me.

At first I was so defensive and asked �how can they judge me, they even know me.� But then I really started to listen. These people were trying to help me by making me see myself for who I really was. I am a wayward spouse (WS) that truly needs to acknowledge and take responsibility for what I did. A person that needs to change and come up with a PLAN of true sacrifice for the ones she loves. I know that I will never be able to say I am sorry enough to make it better. I am hoping you can give me a chance to show you that I am sorry, from now until forever.

First of all, I want to say that I am sorry for taking inventory on your mistakes and focusing on how you hurt me rather than taking accountability for my own crimes. Thank you for being so strong during the Holidays. I know that took a lot out of you and I see now how hard it was for you to pretend that nothing was wrong for the kids. Thank you!!!

I have spent hours on the MB(Marriage Builders) forum and am not anywhere near done. What I have already learned though is that it takes more than just saying you will not do it again. We have actually had this discussion and you said that if I could guarantee that I would not do this again in ten, fifteen, or even twenty years that you would stay with me. We�ll I truly believe that the steps in Marriage Builders is that guarantee. But these steps, and changes don�t mean anything if I am not willing to use them in my life and truly change. Well, I am ready to use them!

I have mapped out a PLAN of action that I am going to follow and I am going to share it with you. I realize this will mean nothing to you unless you actually see it in action but I want to write it down for you to show you that I have thought long and hard about my changes and have already started working on them. I realize I have a very long way to go but am willing to take the steps.
Liz�s Plan of Action

What can I do to make YOU feel Safe?

1. I will be completely honest with you about everything, past and present
2. I will allow you to see everything I do � my text, emails, phone calls � EVERYTHING!!
3. I will eliminate all of my social networking accounts and never get on one again
4. I will not do things without you, unless they are with trustworthy female friends and you feels completely safe and comfortable about it.
5. I will fill your emotional needs and encourage you to tell me when they are not being filled
6. I will Let you know if my emotional needs are not being met
7. I will put myself into tempting situations, or one on one meetings with the opposite sex
8. I will not have a friendship with the opposite sex, including texting, phone calls, personal conversations, lunch etc�
9. I will not flirt with another man or attempt to make you jealous in any way
10. I have to EARN your forgiveness. No matter how long it takes , I will be patient and show you compassion for the trauma that I have caused.
11. I will never attend another work happy hour or party without you by my side
12. I will contact an attorney that will work on your behalf to create a Post-nuptial agreement.
13. I will do whatever keeps you comfortable with the housing and children situation.
14. I will make your phone calls and text my number one priority, answering them and returning them immediately.
15. I will leave my phone accessible to you at any time. And will trade my phone with you any time you request, NO questions asked.
16. I will commit to at least 15 hours with you minimum with you each week to give you my undivided attention and meet your emotional needs.
17. If my affair partner tries to make contact in any way, I end contact immediately and contact you to let you know.
18. Anything else you want to add to this list is as boundary, will be added!

I know that you stated that you don�t want to live like this, but I do. These are the consequences of my actions. I do not see them as punishment; I see them as necessary for me to be a better wife and mother.

What Conditions led to my affair?

1. I had poor boundaries with men and let myself be put in situations that I should have never been in in the first place.
2. I was naive enough to believe that it was safe to have a friendship with a man.
3. I was selfish and not thinking of the devastation that the affair would cause
4. I didn�t end the affair before it got physical because I was weak and was caught up in the lie of the affair.
5. Instead of communicating and being honest with you, I confided in another man rather than talking to the one I truly loved about how I was feeling.
6. I blamed you and justified my affair by picking out your flaws and using them as excuses for my own selfish actions.


How am I going to prevent a future affair?

1. I am going to commit to following the list above, EVERY DAY!!! Taking the Extraordinary Precautions that are necessary to keep my marriage safe.
2. There is No Compromise to the list. I will not change or eliminate anything on the list.
3. I will continue to set up Boundaries that you or I feel necessary for our marriage.
4. We will make Joint Decisions that we both agree on, together.
5. I will be Honest about my feelings, my finances, my social life, EVERYTHING!
6. I am going to Remind myself every day of the devastation that I caused, that I will never completely be able to understand how much I hurt you.
7. I will follow and use the tools given to me on the Marriage Builders website and in Dr. Harley�s books.

These are not just words. Words mean nothing to you and will do nothing to prevent me from repeating my mistakes. These are actions that I have started to work on and will continue to work on.

Last but not least, I don�t just want to be FORGIVEN. I have to EARN your forgiveness. I want to show you that I have the willingness to compensate you for the damage that I have caused to your emotions and your heart.


WITH ALL OF MY HEART,

Liz

fifteenyears, this is very good! I made some minor changes. I want to explain to you that this is not a program of sacrifice. This is a program of freedom. These changes in behavior will protect you and your husband and your children from harm. That is FREEING, not sacrificial. It is not punishment to live a life that is protected from harm, it is liberating. It is important that you understand this before you speak to him. Because if you view this as sacrifice, you won't be doing it for long. The ultimate sacrifice is your marriage, and taking these steps prevent the loss of your marriage. Do you see what I mean?

In other words, when I "sacrificed" smoking 4 packs a day, I got something much, much better in exchange: my good health. This needs to be viewed in that light.

And here is the program of recovery that will restore the love in your marriage [add Surviving an Affair to the book list]. I would tell him that this is the plan you are proposing for the recovery of your marriage. It is an action plan that you will do on your own [you TWO] without counseling. [if do-it-yourself doesn't work, however, the next logical step would be to sign up for the MB course and they will assign you a coach but there is no reason you can't do this on your own if you are methodical and committed]

The Marriage Builders� Home Study Courses, Seminar,and Accountability Program

I'm not a qualified poster, but, you need to put the word "not" in number 7.

I would find a way to not allow this to happen in the first place. Such as changing your cell phone # and/or email address. How would he contact you?

Good catch HapHusb !

The sentence should read:

7. I will not put myself into tempting situations, or one on one meetings with the opposite sex.

15Y, you seem to have taken this very seriously. Keep at it!

NG, what would be your reaction to this letter if you were her husband?

Thanks haphusb!

Also, do you have any "friends" that KNEW about the affair while it was going on?

Checking up on you will make your husband feel safe. There is nothing more effective at building trust than watching what your spouse does when you think she is not looking. Like Harley says: "Lack of trust does not make spouses paranoid and miserable, it makes their marriages safe."

It also helps him hold you accountable. You should both have access to everything.

15Y-

Really well done.

I would have a hard time not letting you try to earn my forgiveness after reading this if I were Sean.

I especially like how you tell him whether he stays or goes, you are going to stay true to this course to earn his forgiveness.

I havent said this to a WW before, but having a remorseful, shamed, and guilt-ridden WW is an excellent start to a BH's recovery.

Good luck.

Yes, thank you all of you! I am so committed to this and I really don't want my husband to feel like it is a sacrifice. I do not feel that way at all. In fact I am excited about this new journey.


ML, there is really no way for my EX-AP to contact me. I have blocked him from my phone and emails. I am no longer on FB. He is no longer at my school. The only thing I worry about is that he and his wife do not live far from us. I have been making sure that I go to the stores on the other side of town, just in case. But I am afraid that at some time one of us will run into him. I just felt that for my husbands reassurance I would add that one because shorty after it happened he asked me to tell him if he ever tried to contact me in any way.

I am buying the books His Needs, Her Needs today. I am giving a copy to my husband and keeping one for myself.

Unlike some of the WS I have not had any contact with him since D-Day. I did go through a couple weeks of grieving for the loss of the relationship and feelings but I have been out of that fog for several weeks now.

You don't know how much that means to me but I know I have a long way to go. Thank you for your kind words and guidance and thank you every one for some tough love and guidance. I really needed it. I think I will be on this site for a long time and I hope that I can someday help someone in the way that you guys have helped me. No matter what happens I can truly say that you all are a gift from God!

Thank you for listening and making it worth our while! I thought it was notable that our tough love could not run you off even though you said you felt like running. I have said a million times that a person who is SINCERE about recovery could not be run off by wild horses. You have proved me right.

ML,

There is a saying that I've come to internalize in all things:

Reputation is the perception of what you are; character is the reality of what you are!

15Y's REPUTATION here (based on her own testimony encapsulated in a few posts) is, unsurprisingly, not sterling. As an outsider, looking in and being forced to make a wager, I would certainly NOT have backed the odds of this being her final transgression.

Fortunately for her, her BH has a more generous opinion of her CHARACTER - "..you said that if I could guarantee that I would not do this again in ten, fifteen, or even twenty years that you would stay with me." That statement is an undeserved gift of incalculable worth.

This is EXACTLY what got me to ride through my bride's betrayal 30 months ago. I KNEW that she was not THAT WOMAN, deep down. Fighting through together would be tough, but I could see the reward (hence: E-A-O-T-P!).

Net/net: NG would not have been satisfied with this (or any) letter from anybody but the person who was/is Mrs. NG. 15Y seems to be blessed with a spouse of similar affections toward her.

The work has started, with the formulation of a viable EP plan. It must continue with elevated levels of UA-time, coupled with concentrated attention to the key emotional needs of BH. We will all be here watching and helping.

Love this

I advise getting a move in the works. You can't live in the fear of bumping into OM and still heal. Ditto your BH.

You're coming along well!

No matter what he decides, I want to be there for him to support him. I will keep you posted and I am going to encourage him to get on here. He has looked at the website several times but is reluctant to get on the forum part of it.

15Y, you might point him toward the radio show. Especially if he is not much into reading, which seems to be the case for many people.

Tell him we're really a nice little bunch of people, once you get to know us.

And we only have to BS's once in a while.

Hardly ever.

fifteenyears, he would get lots of help here. We could help him recover your marriage in a way that would almost guarantee it was affair proof. We don't deal in hope, we deal in certainty.

We would not push him to stay in the marriage if he doesn't want to, but we would show him how his marriage could be recovered in a way that would protect his interests.

No matter what happens I can truly say that you all are a gift from God!

Do you enjoy stories with morals? Too bad, you're gonna get one anyway:

A man was stranded on his roof in a flood and prayed to God to save him. A man in a rowboat came by and asked if he would climb in, and he said, "No, I'll await God's help!"

A helicopter hovered overhead and started to lower a ladder, and the man said, "No, I'll await God's help!"

The man drowned.

At the Pearly Gates, he stormed at St Peter that as good and faithful a person as he had been, he was left to drown as his prayers were unanswered.

St Peter looked at him and said, "Unanswered? Why do you think the Boss sent the rowboat and the helicopter?"

Good to see you're planning to climb aboard, my friend!

Good job 15years ! Keep up the good work.

There have been lots of ups and downs for me/us, but we are working the plan. You can do it. Keep posting on here for help. I'm still on here every day, reading, learning.

Tell us how your husband is doing,okay ?
Blessings,
FF

I haven't been on marriage builders very long and i don't normally post on other people's threads but i just want to say how sorry i am for you. I know what it's like to lose your husband because of the bad choices you make. And i know the soul crushing feeling that comes from knowing that you have no one to blame but yourself. But you've taken the first step towards recovery/redemption and that is admitting your mistakes and trying to do better. I'm not going to tell you what you need to do for recovery as I'm completely not qualified to do that but i do think you have made the right decision in coming to this site. I've only been here a short while and already it has helped me immensely with my husband leaving me after my affair and the bad choices I made thereafter so you are in the right place. I hope it works out for you.


PS I'm a little bit confused was this a PA EA Or both did you have sex with the other man and how long did the affair go on for And were you in love with the OM.

ML, I will tell him that.

15years and RecoveryLady,
I wanted you both to know that I am also a WW and I am praying for you both, and for your husbands. I am thankful to not know the pain of being betrayed, like what I did to my husband, but I do have some idea of what you are both living right now.
May God grant you rest and sleep tonight, and hope for tomorrow.
FF

Recovery lady,

Your post made me cry because what happened to you is my biggest fear. I am so very sorry that it did not work out between you and your H. Are you guys still on speaking terms? Do you have kids?

This site is wonderful, a real gift from God no matter what happens. This is one thing I know for sure right now.

The relationship started out as an EA at the end of last year. We were co teachers together and already started flirting last year. Nothing happened this summer but as soon as school started in August we picked up where we left off. By the end of September it had turned into a PA. 11-12-11 was D-day.

I honestly don't know if it was real love or not. At the time it felt like it but now it just seems like silly puppy love. It is really hard to think about it now as anything good because it makes me sick to know what I did.

Thank you FF! Your forum was actually the first one I read on this site. I could really relate to everything you said.

Ooooh oooh oooooooh pick me pick me! I know the answer to this one!!!!!!

Even if you consider yourself to have been "in love", that does not REMOTELY make it real love.

It was not, is not, and never will be real love. It was selfishness, lust, and infatuation. I'm really, really glad you find it hard to think of it now as anything good. It wasn't, not even a little bit.

The time will come when it will not be hard - it will be impossible to think of it as anything good. You're getting there.

Your husband moved out because you are a serial cheater. He has absolutely no idea when you will cheat again. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. You were a newlywed and you cheated, you were married 15 years (happily) and you still cheated. He deserves to be happy.

Fifteen,

Never post outside of my thread, as I am a mess. I read your story the other day. Wow, I thought I was reading my own post, minus a few details. My WW had her As 1 year after our marriage, our son was one year old, she had 4 one night stand type As. We too were just out of high school, she too was 19 at the time I was 21. Add 15 year (ten years post DDay) and how about that another A.

Being on the BS side of things, I can completely understand why your BH left. For many reasons I have decided (for now) to try to make my marriage work despite what many have recommended here.

I must say it is not as easy a road as the first time around. I was able to rationalize what happened early in our marriage as a bad choice for a young woman who didn't know what she wanted at the time.

Now, I cannot get over the fact that my WW knew exactly what the size and shape of the dagger, and what pain it caused when she so carelessly slammed it through my heart, yet she was capable of doing it again 15 years later. Knowing full well what it would do to me. I can say it broke me the first time. I cannot describe to you what it has done this time, I cannot honestly say I will ever get it all back together again. Time will tell. I sometimes question my decision to stay because I can only think it will happen again. Not an if, but a when. She is like sweet poison- I know its killing me but I keep drinking.

Part of my reason to stay is fear. I at least know what I have, I don't know if I want to chance settling down with someone else, that woman may be worse than what I've got. Life is to short to go through this again.

I'm getting a little long and will quit.

I have no advice for you. I just wanted you to know my perspective on what my WW did to my marriage and me, as I can only imagine your BH feels a bit of what I do.

I hope this can help you in your path to save your marriage.
I will pray for both of you.

Your husband moved out...He deserves to be happy.

OTH, what you posted is absolutely correct. What you might not realize is that many of us here are proof that (if possible) reconciling with the FWS and recovering the damaged marriage is the best chance an FBS has for ultimate happiness.

Giving each couple the best chance for that result is why most of us are here.

Reconciliation is possible. For repeat adultery, the path is much narrower, and few make it. Still, it does happen. Those few times involve a completely repentant FWS, who gives their life and viewpoints a complete overhaul.

There can be a distinction between a serial adulterer, and a repeat offender. A serial adulterer is addicted to the thrill of adultery itself, and almost never choose to change. Though there are surely a few who repent and make things right with God, I would never, ever, ever advocate a BS to risk their own sanity on someone in this category. (Mulan's WXH is a prime example that springs to mind.)

A repeat offender is still addicted to the individual OP each time they cheat, but have failed to change the conditions in their life that made further A's possible. They are almost certain to cheat again, UNTIL they are willing to change everything that leaves the tiniest crack of a door open to getting their needs met by someone besides their spouse.

A person in the second category still may have a chance to R their M, under certain conditions. It's lots of work, but can be done. Even if the M is not saved, the work should still be done so a WS can become a FWS. Much patience is needed, as the damage runs much deeper in this case than with your garden-variety one-time A.

The point is, that whether the effort to save the M succeeds or not, the spouse (BS or WS) who makes the attempt will become a better person for having been through the process.

Non-specific, and not particularly practical bits of advice are always very interesting (to me).

"You deserve to be _." ??? What? Happy? Loved? <~~~ LINK

I have, after careful consideration, come to the conclusion that bits like this are, in essence,messages intended to comfort and console the sender more than the receiver.

Including when I myself am the author of self-soothing messages.

I just got some devistating news from my H today. I gave him my letter and while he said that he took it to heart and he still loves me, he can't trust me and does not want to live in the way that I layed out in my letter. He still sees it as a prison sentence for me and is worried that sometime in the future if he is not meeting my emotional needs, I will break down and find someone else again.

I know that I have to think of him and not myself. I am trying to hard right now to do that. I told him I respected his decision but through MB I thought we could build our marriage up and that using the steps everyday together would eliminate another A.

I am devistated but I have to think of him and my children and making myself better for them. It is just hard when you know you are the reason you lost the best thing you've ever had.

I am sorry 15. If it is any comfort, I know that just recently one of the posters, MirrorMirror, had decided on divorce and changed his mind. They are now working on recovering and a new life.

Please keep posting. God can still change hearts and lives !!

Be "devastated", 15Y, if you must; that's a legitimate emotion on receiving disappointing news.

Do not, however, be:

• Angry at him. His reaction, this soon after D-day, is understandable.
• Dissuaded from following through on a good start in a program of repairing yourself. Remember, the target was, is, and will continue to be, your actions.
• Discouraged. Friend, this is a marathon you're just starting. A stumble at the start can be made up over 26.2 miles.
• Disincented from communicating with us here. We will NEVER abandon you if you don't abandon MB.

Effective and consistent application of the MB practices will demonstrate the resolve your BH needs to see. Attention to his ENs will remind him of why he initially loved you.

Work the program.

Work the program for you. It's still worth it. It's still what you need.

Thank you! I am still going to work the program. It might be the only thing that gets me through this.

I'm so sorry to hear that your husband does not want to try and reconcile. It sounds so familiar to my husband said to me "i have no interest in being your prison warden for the rest of our Lives" and while i can understand that it still breaks my heart. but at the end of the day it's not my decision is his all i can do is say I'm sorry and be willing to do anything he asks and hope for an opportunity to make it up to him if he ever lets me. As for you all i can say is keep working this program and Keep your eye out for an opportunity to show you remorse regret Shane or whatever other word you can think of to say how sorry you are that's what I'm doing.

fifteenyears You asked if we are still on speaking terms and yes we are in fact when we are together we get along great for the most part (as long as we keep it small talk) the problem is when we are together for too long my husband gets uncomfortable and doesn't know want to say. Then this gets me upset and depressed and my husband notices this and it just goes downhill from there. The only thing we seem to be a able to communicate on without getting emotional is our children we have 3 girls and they are the most important thing in our lives. We work together to make sure that they have everything they need and that this whole ordeal is as easy on them as possible.

RL,
I was reading your entire thread today. I could relate to entire story, right up to the divorce. My heart broke for your entire family. We have two children and they are so important to both of us as well. I feel the same way as you do, that I have to understand what he us going through and use any and every opportunity to continue to show him my commitment to change. I am doing this for myself as well. I have done a lot of soul searching the past couple of weeks. I see so many things about myself that I should of improved on ages ago.

I will be praying for you and your family. No matter what happens I know that we will come out of this better people and hopefully our H's will be able to feel safe with us again, even if we are not together. I'm not throwing in the towel yet, but I have to give my husband what he wants verses thinking about what I want.

15,

You said
You may not realize this but this is GOOD news. Your H has spelled out the path for recovery. Look at what he said and think about it. He does not want to live in fear. He does not want you to live as if it were a prison for you. He worries that he is not enough for you and has never been enough, thus the next best offer will see you leaving him.

Now, you can sit down and develop a plan to show him that his assumptions about how you feel, what you want, and how you act WILL protect him and WILL make you happy to do it.

This is about perspective 15 and you need to start to express your goals and dreams in ways that address his fears.

Think about it, discuss it here and develop a plan. You are not divorced yet and he has not filed yet. There is hope, but the window is small. GO FOR IT!

God Bless,

JL

She did give him a plan - in the posted letter - and we did discuss it with her. Apparently he believes this would be a prison and he would be the guard. I think she should stick to it and try to show him by her behavior that she has changed.

15years, another suggestion is to counsel with Steve Harley of Marriage Builders and see if he can persuade your husband. He does phone coaching and is very good at saving marriages. You could counsel with him alone first and he could tell you what to say to get your husband on the phone.

I have thought about the coaching because my husband is not a big reader. He just seems so anti anything that is going to save our marriage right now. I feel like he has given up and don't know what to do about it.

Definitely going to show him with my behavior. He is so up and down. One minute he is yelling and me and blaming me for everything. The next minute he is texting me to see if I'm okay. One minute he is not talking to me and the next minute he is winking at me.

I told him no matter what I am sticking to the plan. I mean these boundaries and changes are things that everyone should have in there marriage, NO MATTER WHAT.

I Guess what I'm confused about is other than my behavior, what can I be doing to help him? When he has been yelling at me, I have been patient and no matter what he says to me, I say that I am sorry that I caused him so much pain. He is just so angry right now and I don't know exactly how to act and what to do or say. I want to reach out and touch him and comfort him but is that fair to either of us?

I have also tried to encourage him to get on this website and the forum. I just don't want to overstep my boundaries with him and make it worse.

One more question for the moment: should I share my plan with my children? They are 14 and 10. We have both been very honest with them the entire time about everything. They are both very smart, sincere, caring, children. I don't want to burden them with too much but I feel that I owe these changes to them as well. They deserve a better mom, especially after what I did to them.

Thats why I want to get him on the phone with STeve, he is very good at giving reluctant spouses hope. See, Steve is very logical and he will lay out a PLAN for your husband that makes sense. Most men don't like counseling but they do like Steve because he is very logical and only believes in actions. [no psychobabble] Steve will tell you what to say to get him on the phone with him. For example, he might ask you to ask your H to call him so they can discuss how to help you adjust. Then Steve will use the opportunity to show him a real plan and give him HOPE. [hope based on a EVIDENCE, that is]

Okay, so how do I go about talking to Steve?

Click on the counseling center link at the top of the page. And when you make an appt, request STEVE HARLEY.

So would I have to do a session and then my H do a session? I'm sure it would be worth it but at $225 a pop, not sure how many sessions I could afford. I really want to do this but am afraid that my husband will refuse and it will be money down the drain. I also don't want my H to feel put on the spot, he hates that.

I did send him an email about Steve Harvey and marriage coaching. I'm not sure if this was a good idea or not but I felt like I had nothing more to lose.

It will never be money down the drain!

It's an investment in yourself and hopefully it will transfer into an investment in your marriage!!

I wouldn't think you would need more than a couple of sessions just to motivate him to get on board. If you can get him motivated, the forum could help you with the rest. When you talk to Steve, you will see what I mean about how persuasive he is.

Typically...people are more self interested/concerned. Perhaps his concern here is not so much YOUR "prison sentence" but rather his "prison guard duties".

Your "plan" includes giving him open access to monitor your activities and right now, this early out, to him that sounds like he, should he choose to recover, will be in charge of daily/weekly monitoring your emails, chats, cell phone, mail, etc forever. He [rightfully] feels that doesn't resemble a marriage he desires where HE is in charge of monitoring YOUR fidelity.

Again...he's right, but only because he's misinterpreting "the plan" you've presented.

MB concepts and "extraordinary precautions" you mentioned in your letter are NOT prison terms. You aren't "surrendering" to conquering forces. This isn't "reconstruction". The precautions and MB Plan are the result of the research Dr. Harley did when answering the questions...."How do some couples succeed at long term marriage?". They are the practices and habits of successful couples. They are the what he, you, me and my wife should have been doing all along.

I don't "monitor", per se, my wife now. I COULD if I wanted to and I do perhaps log into her email from time to time where years ago I wouldn't have....but that's not MONITORING her but rather as a good practice [there's not supposed to be privacy in marriage...who knew???] I don't feel insecure at all in our relationship and I don't feel it's a prison. Actually...it was more like a prison BEFORE 2005 when we were both unhappy. Being in love with your spouse (and them you) is liberating.

Mr. Wondering (got a phone call in the middle of this so I kind of lost my momentum)


p.s. - Wanted to mention...this principles, practice and "precautions" are reciprocal. It is no more a "prison" for you than it is for him. You BOTH undertake to protect the marriage and these precautions you listed go both ways. He's not to have opposite sex friends/relationships either....he's not to chat with old flames on facebook or even be friends with them (if he keeps facebook at all). You guys are only just a little over age 30....it's not to late for your relationship and your kids will certainly be better off with you two together than apart. Most likely he will too (not necessarily though).

As to what you should tell the kids, of course make no promises about the M or R.

Let them know that you know you messed up big-time, and because you choose to never allow that to happen again, you are implementing a plan to protect your family, and your own heart from being vulnerable.

They don't necessarily need to know every aspect of the plan, but I would tell them many of your EP's. At their age, they are beginning to think thoughts of relationships and romance, so it can be a good teachable moment to direct their minds to proper boundaries with the opposite sex.

Then, as you model good behavior for them, they will have a better chance to set their own boundaries well.

MW,

Everthing you are saying makes perfect sense and I agree. Right now my husbands thoughts are that "it is his turn to be selfish". I know that right now he is reacting to the intense pain that I caused him. I truly feel that he does not know how to deal with the pain that I have caused him. I am trying to help him but don't know how.

Would it be good to send him your post from above or is that not a good idea. I have continued to encourage him to get on the website/forum but I am afraid if I push too hard, I will just push him away.

Print out a few things you like and leave them next to the toilet. You are right to feel the need to caution yourself against pushing.

I don't know. I'd wait a day or two and try to accumulate a few things to say rather than persistent comments. You want the most bang for your buck each time you contact/bother him as you don't know how many opportunities remain (he may cut you off at any time).

My guess is he's already reading along and he'll see my post. You told him about MB and the forum so natural human curiosity will bring him here to read whether he tells you or not.

Back in 2005 I didn't post for help. I posted to others supporting them but not at all about our situation. I sat back and watched happily as the MB posters pushed and prodded my wife as she pull herself out of the fog. They said to her as neutral third parties what I didn't know should be said and things I couldn't say. I didn't have to be the bad guy...rather I was her sounding board as she managed her way through her own help threads and along the path to FWW.

That's not to say that he shouldn't post here. He should. He needs help making an important life decision too. Many of us have been where he is...unsure about which direction to go. I'm very glad I choose to reconcile with my wife....but that doesn't mean it's always the right thing to do. Some guys just can't, no matter how hard they try and some wayward wives, no matter what they say...just can't follow through. Waywardism isn't cured simply by "no contact"...it's an ingrained way of life that needs to be unlearned and cast aside ....a complete change...repentance. It takes at least one full year to get most of the way there***

***with that in mind...both you and your husband, should he be reading and/or get on board need to realize you will make mistakes. Entitlement and selfishness will still rear up in you from time to time as you learn to control and harness your over indulgent taker. This is not an overnight program. Learning takes time. Implementing new behaviors takes time and it takes time for these new learned behaviors to take root and become your new habits and new thought processes (feelings follow actions). Patience.

Mr. Wondering

Watch the movie Fireproof with him

Ironically, a friend at work just gave me that movie. I will try to get him to watch it with me.

Mel,

You said If she and her H will counsel with the Harley's great. BUT, while she wrote down a plan, she clearly didn't fully understand what it means and what she needs to know, or the "news" she mentioned would not have bothered her so.

Her H told her what was really bothering him, and she needs to figure out how to express and show her husband the things that will eventually calm the waters and allow her to grow and learn in this marriage. I have no doubt that any of the Harley's can show her how to do this, but she still needs to step back and focus more on her H and what he is saying. He is giving her valuable information. She should use it with her plan. She must learn to see things from her H's perspective or she has no chance of changing her perspective and influencing his.

15 did you think about what I said?

God Bless,

JL

fifteenyears, I would go listen to Dr Harley's radio show from yesterday. [it will replay until noon cst today and then you can find it in archives] The caller is a WW whose H has left her because of her affair. Her H is now having an affair but Dr Harley tells her how to approach her H by giving him assurances [through actions] that this won't happen again.

Go click on the radio link and select rebroadcast. After noon today, go to archives and pull up the 1-12 radio show and listen to it. It is very informative.

JL,

Your member name is a perfect representation of me right now because I am "just learning" how to change who I am. I am reading everything you said to me. I even printed it up and highlighted the parts that stood out to me (can't do all the fancy stuff that you guys do on here yet). I am taking in EVERYTHING my husband says and does and trying to reflect on it. Every time I see him, I tell him and try to show him how sorry I am.


The biggest things you said that I have really been thinking about are that "he worries that he is not enough for me" and that I "need to start to express your goals and dreams in ways that address his fears."

The problem is that I don't see him everyday. There are so many things I want to share with him and tell him but I feel like that would be too much and scare him away. And if there is one thing that I have learned from this site, actions are much more powerful than words. How do I show him that he is good enough, my goals and dreams? How can I address his fears when he is too scared to be with me right now?


I think the news that I got the other day bothered me so much because my husband is reacting out of his fear and anger from the situation. I completely understand and honestly, I would be doing the same thing. In fact, when I truly try to put myself in his shoes, it makes me feel sick! The biggest question he keeps asking is "WHY". My reasons why are not what he wants to hear right now. He feels so betrayed by me, as he should.

One thing that have already started to change about myself is how I speak and act towards my husband and my children. What I am still struggling with is HOW I can show him my plan of action when I do not see him every day? How can I convince him that this plan is not a prison sentence for either of us?

Yesterday, he came over to spend time with our kids. I coach cheer leading and had to go up to a basketball game. I told him I was leaving around 3, and if he didn't want to see me he could come over after that. He showed up at 2:30. We talked and laughed and he reached out for my hand. I reached out for his and we hugged.

He then proceeded to tell me how sorry he was. Why is he apologizing to me? I hugged him very tight and told him that he had "NOTHING" to be sorry for that I was the one who was sorry and it hurt me to see him in so much pain. I asked him what I could do to help with the pain and he did not say anything. I then told him that no matter what I am here for him and I want to help him and stand by him no matter what he decides. It was a wonderful moment but I was left feeling like I did not do enough.

I am just so confused with how he is feeling and I believe he is as well. Everyone on this site has been so helpful but I feel very confused as to how to approach my husband; what is too far, how to show him that I love him and want to protect him forever, how to help him with his pain even though I am the source of it.

The three biggest emotions that he has shown me this week are Anger, confusion, and pain.

Anger - he said that I was selfish and now it was his turn to be selfish. Yelling at me about the situation that we are in and the choices that he is making now are because of me (I just apologized and agreed with him because he is right).

Confusion - One moment he will not talk to me and the next moment he is holding my hand, hugging me and telling me how sorry he is. One moment he is cold and the next moment he is winking at me.

Pain - Trying to cut me out of his life. Thinking that by divorcing me, getting rid of my email on his phone, and not talking to me that the pain will go away. How can I be transparent for him, if he will not even let me in?

Some of the very small steps that I have already taken are 1. keeping my house very clean (big pet peeve of his) I believe that this would be one of his top ENs. Before he left, we did fill out the EN in the book of SAA. He did not write this one down but I think that is because he didn't realize what Domestic Contribution was. 2. Being patient and understanding with everything he says and realizing that this is not about me, but about him. 3. Continuing to answer his questions honestly. 4. Not asking him for anything, letting him have his time away to think. 5. Telling him about MB, the site and forum on a regular basis. 6. Working on Joint Resolution on very small things right now, like what we should tell our kids and who gets the kids on what days.

JL, I am looking at everything everyone says and applying it to my life in every situation. I am 33 years old, it is time to grow up and stop being naive. It is time for me to put my needs aside and look at what my family really needs. I have figured myself out and what I need to do for me, but I just don't know what to do for my husband.

I know you say to listen to what he is saying and try to apply it to every moment I have with him. Right now that is what I am doing even though the moments are far and few between. One day at at time has become my new favorite motto.

I will definitely listen to it. I downloaded the MB app on my phone.

Something you need to understand, from the betrayed's viewpoint. OK? This is intended to help you change your course. Not to admonish you.

When I was freshly betrayed, my husband's continual 'sorry' was very annoying. To say the least. I did not trust his 'sorry'. It felt disingenuous. In my mind I was thinking:

"Yeah. You're sorry alright. Sorry you got caught. Sorry you can't pretend it did not happen."

You get the idea, right?

Instead of "Every time" telling him how 'sorry' you are .... SHOW him how changed you are.

Your 'sorry' over & over is worth less than a plug nickel. It has little, if any, lasting value. (as far as your H is concerned)

Demonstrate how much you have changed.

You are allowed to say "I am so sorry" ..... but understand it is not enough. Do not stop there.

Continue to say "I will do whatever it takes for as long as it takes to make this right."

And, every day ask: "Is there anything I can do for you today?"

When the betrayed spouse is on MB and asking "Why?" .... It is clear that there is really no truly satisfactory answer to this question.

When you are asked, perhaps the following will help you respond.

"I took baby steps to hell."

Please take a look at this link:

*** Anatomy of Adultery How It Starts ***

Where YOU will have a particular problem is when he asks:

"Why again?"

You need to admit that you did not learn the lessons about boundaries and protection the first time.

I hope this is enough.

I think this is very hopeful !!!

He is conflicted.
Which is a good thing.
Being in conflict means he feels an attachment to you.
What you do not want is indifference.

We don't call this a roller coaster ride because the name sounds cute!
The emotional roller coaster is up and down at break-neck speeds.
"I hate you" to "I love you" in the blink of an eye.

I think it helps if you understand that this is part of the process.
Don't get spooked by it.

Fasten your seatbelt.

One of the great big beautiful things wayward spouses can take from the MB forum is, you get the POV (point of view) from the betrayed's perspective and you can use that POV to help your situation !

15 .... You are already in. You are his first thought in the morning and you are his last thought before he falls asleep You are in his dreams.
You are IN all the time.

BH is trying to force you 'out'. You are not out. You are in.

Do what we advise without measuring BH's response.

Trust me.
You are 'in' way more than you realize.

15Y, Pep makes a very good point about the developments you're seeing as being POSITIVE, not NEGATIVE, in this stage of your BH's shock recovery.

Let me reduce this to the minimum. You've stated he is exhibiting anger, confusion, and pain. Would you prefer you see withdrawal, isolation, and - God forbid! - substitution, in his coping strategies?

As brutally as he's been hit, he is still bringing his wounds to YOU, the one who inflicted them. (Not to "pile on" right now, but he's showing more restraint than I would have, given the complete story. You're a VERY lucky woman.)

Be consistent in your progress. Ignore the "highs" and "lows", and stay focused on the long term. Every day that passes provides you another day of change, and him another day of healing.

Thanks PB! It is good to get straight up and honest advice from someone on the other end of it.

You're welcome.

I am motivated to reach out to you for several reasons.
Not the least of these is .......

NG,

Thank you for your insight. I am in no way complaining about his changes, just observing. As part of my recovery, I am taking it one day at at time and feel lucky to get a chance just to talk to him, "high" or "low". I am in this for the very long haul, no matter what it takes and what they end result it.

15,

Pep has given you great advice. Listen to her. Also realize that anger is a secondary emotion driven by: fear, pain, anxiety, frustration, etc. So you are seeing manifestations of what he told you, just expressed differently from time to time as his ride on the roller coaster takes him up and down.

I fully agree with the "I'm sorry" statement. Try humor, try care, try to let him know that you KNOW what you want and it is him.

As for why? Well, I liked Pep's answer. Another would be pure and simple selfishness. Another is assumptions: you assumed several things (you would not get caught) (you could talk yourself out of it) (your rationalization that it would NOT hurt him too much or he did not care) Any or all of these could be the reason, but selfishness is clearly a big reason.

I would expand on what Pep has also said, by saying you should never lie to him. But, by the same token try to enjoy your time around him as well. Meet his needs or if you are unsure about his needs try reading the needs articles here and then His Needs Her Needs, you will get a better idea of how to address his needs.

The thing you need to fear is withdrawal and indifference. There is a famous saying that goes

There is hope for your situation. It will take time, focus, and lots of patience but he is still interacting with you and showing you care. That is good.

God Bless,

JL

The title of my forum fits perfectly with my situation because once again I am asking, What to do? The roller coaster has taken a massive dip down and I as the WS don't know exactly what to do.

Something that I do not believe that I have mentioned yet on this blog is that the night my husband decided that he could not deal with the pain anymore and was leaving (1/2/12) he confessed to me that he had been chatting with another girl. He said he met her when he was out one night and that they had been texting and talking.

He mentioned that she was divorced because her husband cheated on her (something in common) and that she knew he was married and nothing had happened yet. That they had just been talking and texting a lot.

This really hurt, but being the WW, I knew that I could not get angry and that I really didn't have much of a leg to stand on at this point. I tried to push it out of my mind and just told him that if he was going to seek out this relationship, that I would like to know.

I did bring it up only a couple other times but never in an accusatory way. When he asked for the divorce, I did ask if it was because of someone else and he said no. I know I had no right to do this but I said it before I could really think about it.

This morning while paying my phone bill, my curiosity got the best of me and I started looking through my husbands phone bill. What I have found out by the phone records are that he has been having a number of lengthy conversations with another female on both her home and cell phone. They started on 12/18 while we both were still living together in the house. The last call from either number is on 1/5/12.

So, this is where I am, as of this moment. I feel like this is a well deserved stab in my heart. I'm really not sure what to do or say about this. I know that I do not have the right to confront my husband and I am the one who caused all of this pain for both of us.

I don't know anything more than the phone calls and don't really know if I want to know anymore or even deserve to know anymore. I guess my question is What do I do now?

You are so right. I did ASSUME a lot of things. As the saying goes when you ASSUME you make an [censored] out of U and ME. I ASSUMED that I would not cheat again because it had been 13 years. I even when so far to as to ASSUME that he had already or was cheating on me to justify what I was doing. What a selfish, stupid person I was. As Pepper said - "baby steps to hell" because that is where I feel like I am right now. It is a good thing I turned around and started in the other directions but man it is hot in here!

Point #1.
No one 'deserves' to have their spouse cheat on them. Not me. Not you. End of discussion.

Point #2.
Cheating does a lot of personal damage to the cheater.
Name one person who became a better human being because they cheated?
Not one.
A cheater may become a better human being after they repair the damages and make amends. But cheating does not build character. Ever. End of discussion.

Point #3.
Are you married?
Yes, you are.
Do you have the right to ask your husband about his conversations with OW?
Yes, you do.
Also, you have the responsibility, as a newly emerging MB'er, to be HONEST.
If you're going to get anywhere in your recovery, it must begin with honesty.

State the facts and make your request in a non-accusatory way.

"I know you've been in conversations with OW. I hope you are not making the same mistakes I have made. If anyone knows the pain of losing one's values, it is me. I am asking you to stop contact with OW."


Be prepared to listen to his; "Yes but you did thus and so".

You respond "I know that my lying and cheating has hurt you. I also know that my cheating has hurt me as a human being. I am asking you to not hurt yourself in the way I have hurt myself."


Then, let it go. Don't nag.
However, find out if OW is married.

I had a little thought when you mentioned this that he may have been worried about the kind of EPs HE would have to face. It IS possible, but I would do as Pep suggested.

There is NEVER an excuse for an affair. The fact that your spouse had an affair doesn't excuse your actions.

Stick to the MB plans.

So this is you on the radio show from 1-12? Because that is the EXACT situation the caller describes to Dr Harley on this show:

Part 1,

Part 2,

Part 3.

the night my husband decided that he could not deal with the pain anymore and was leaving (1/2/12) he confessed to me that he had been chatting with another girl.

Grrrrrrr! Keeping this from US for almost two weeks is not highly indicative of the new, highly marriage-oriented person you have decided to work toward becoming.

We can't help you with what we do not know about.

ML, that was not me on the Radio station but I did listen to all three segments and it was very scary how much it sounded like me.

NG, I did not think it was my place as a WS to do anything about it. Especially since he was leaving me. I'm sure in his head he is now Justifying and ASSUMING that this is okay because we are separated and I did it first. Believe me, I am not justifying his actions but I know that he will.

I am still learning here. I really wasn't trying to keep anything. I guess I was in my own denial about this situation because I really didn't want it to be real.

I just called my BS and he was with a friend. I did not think it was a good time to talk. He said he was going to call me back later. I looked at the phone records and he has been talking to the OW since December 18th. Everyday up until January 5th. These are just the phone calls. I can't get any access to the text messages.

When he told me about talking to her on 1/2/12 he told me that she was divorced for a year b/c her husband cheated on her. I however got this information from him. I do have a name and a couple of phone numbers. Not much more than that at this time.

Pepper your advice was wonderful and I am going to use your words and the strength of God when I talk to him and try to stay calm, cool, and collected. I am not going to accuse or blame him for anything.

Any other words of advice before he calls me back would be extremely helpful. Again, no matter what I am going to go through MB to make myself a better person in my future, no matter what my future holds.

Thank you everyone for giving me the strength to see myself for who and what I truly am and who I am capable of becoming.

Does the OW have a facebook page?

This is exactly how I wound up here, and thankful I did.

My heart is truly breaking but this is where I am right now. I called my husband tonight and asked him about the OW. I was very calm and did not accuse, I just asked questions. He told me that he has been in a relationship with her since the middle of December. It has already become a PA. He tried to blame it on me but I calmly said that "I will gladly take the blame for my own affair, but not yours."

He also justified it because he said they were just texting and talking to each other until he moved out (not sure how true this is). Either way, I told him "an afair is an afair is an afair." Pepper I used a lot of your lines, THANK YOU!

He showed no remorse and actually seemed a little agitated with me. I also found out that last Tuesday night when he left our daughters school event to "go out to dinner with his dad and brother" that he really went to a concert with her.

ML, I actually got back on fb today to try to find her. I did find someone that seemed to fit the description and I am not sure if it is her. I did call her and leave a message on her phone. It was very calm but I just explained to her that she and my husband were in an affair and it was wrong because he was still married to me.

I have not lost hope in myself. I still believe God led me to this site to give me strength right now.

Well, this is a whole bunch of mess. This is one of the many reasons that we tell BSs to shore up their boundaries after the discovery of their WSs A.

You need to snoop and find out about her. Then you need to expose. You should do Plan A for a short time, 3-4 weeks, and then Plan B.

Does your WH(BH) know that you post here? Does he know about MB?

fifteenyears: I'm so sorry about this latest unfortunate turn of events. It's not fair to you he should've waited until you were divorced before starting another relationship. I have the same fear that my STBXH is going to start dating and i do not know how I'm going to handle it. But you need to stay strong and listen to the excellent advice that you will be given here. Tell your husband still want to reconcile but that he has to end the affair and most of all to not let this be swept under the rug this doesn't change anything you did you still had a affair the only thing that's different now is he's had one as well.

Scotland,

He does know about this site and I have been trying to get him on this past week. He also knows my user name and all of the information. Now I realize why he was so reluctant to get on.

RL - I agree with everything you said. I am heartbroken but I am not going to let it break me or sway me from the progress I have already made using this program.

Being the cheater then being cheated on in less than two months...I would not recommend it to anyone. Sorry I had to start my day out with a little humor to keep me going. I did not get much sleep last night. My mind would not stop racing. Just when I thought being the betrayer stinks, being betrayed is even worse.

At this point my H does not feel like he did anything wrong. He is showing almost no emotion what so ever right now. What was the word you guys used - INDIFFERENT - Yeah I think we are there.

My children, parents, and a handful of my friends know. My H told me that his parents know but it would not surprise me if they encouraged it and feel the same way he does, that it is just. They have been against us healing and getting back together from the beginning. Which doesn't surprise me, they are both cheaters who swept everything under the rug so far that now they cannot even except the reality of this situation. To them, it is always someone else's fault and its better to just not deal with it. So I know why my H is acting the way he is.

Sorry, I am venting a little bit because I need to get it out. I don't want to have an AO on my husband. I am going to try to talk to him today at some time.

My children are a wreck right now. They do not want to see my husband or talk to him. I know he is going to blame this on me but I have not said one word against him other than the truth and the facts of the situation. Actions truly speak louder than words and my children are disgusted with his actions.

Double wammies really hurt bad! I am going to have to steal someone else's line today to get through the day.

"I CAN DO ALL THINGS THROUGH CHRIST WHO STRENGTHENS ME"

The difference between you and your H is that you ENDED your affair. He hasn't. I would DEMAND that he end his affair, 15yrs. DEMAND IT. And make it very clear to him that you are under no illusions that he left the marriage for his affair. You ended your affair and offered to do everything to repair the damage, on the other hand.

Who is the OW? Does she have a facebook page? If so, I would send her parents a private message telling them that their daughter is dating a married man and ask them to use their influence to persuade her to leave your husband alone. Check out my link in my signature for a sample letter and instructions on how to do this.

Also, did you hear what Dr Harley told the lady in the radio clip about Plan B?

From the new book by Dr. Harley Effective Marriage Counseling pg 94:

"Granted, there are situations when demands may be necessary in marriage. During a spouse's affair, for example, I recommend that the betrayed spouse demand there be no contact with the lover. If there is continued contact, separation or even divorce would be the logical consequence. While normally demands don't work, in this case there are no reasonable alternatives because thoughtful requests are even less likely to separate lovers."

Your husband is going to find it very difficult to R. Each time you had an affair, not a ONS, you lied, manipulated, deceived your husband. You NEVER confessed, you were discovered or ratted out. This has proven to him that NOTHING you tell him can be trusted. Your guilt only manifested after you were caught. I am sorry for your kids, as I have been in their position. The kids are the innocent ones.

Ouchthathurt, that statement really did hurt but you are right. Do not think for one minute that I have forgotten that I got this ball of misery rolling. My H however took the ball and threw it even further. I understand that what I did is a major reason that he turned to someone else. I however will not be used as the excuse for it.

You are right, I never confessed but one thing I can say is that as soon as I was caught I immediately left my AP behind for my H and my kids. Even before I knew about this program I started the steps to my R.



I'm by no means saying pin a rose on my nose. I am still very aware of how much pain I have caused my H not once but TWICE! Despite the pain that he is causing me right now, I will still respect him and his pain. That is one thing I have learned from my own experience and MB. Revenge and blame are never the answer.

My biggest concern right now is my children. I feel that I am already in plan A, I guess since yesterday. I think if I can I will do this for a couple more weeks. I will then go with plan B. I have not decided how long yet. I'm still not ready to give up, yet. But I know I cannot hold on forever.

Working on me, may require me to let go. We shall see. One day at a time!

A 2nd A certainly complicates things. The good news is, it's still possible to R once both A's have ended.

Follow the plan to a T. It's a big job working to earn your "F" while simultaneously being a BS and fighting another A. You can do it!

Also, I recommend mentioning your own infidelity briefly and without details in your exposure letter. If you say nothing, WH and OW will take great delight in telling their family and friends that you cheated first. This will take away most if not all the indignation that would have been turned against the current set of waywards, and send it to you instead.

I would just add something like, "I know first-hand how destructive adultery can be. I recently ended my own affair and committed to repairing our marriage. I know we can be happy together again, once we only have two people in our marriage. I know others who have succeeded, and I am confident that we can, too."

Whether you feel it or not, project the same full confidence as if you were only a BW.

ML,

The only thing I have on the OW are two phone numbers and a couple possible addresses. Not sure which one is her. I looked on fb and the only person I found, I'm not sure it is her. I'm not sure how to find out more at this point without him being at home. Im pretty sure he created a new email address.

Can you have his place watched?

He is staying at his parents house right now. I am going to go talk to him tomorrow. I will try to find out some more info from him.

A lot has happened this weekend and once again my life has taken another turn. I think it might have been for the better but I am so scared and I know my husband is too. He told me that he is going to break it off with the OW. We are going to write the NC letter sometime this week.

What makes me nervous is getting started on recovery and rebuilding. He is scared that he will never be able to trust me again or actually truly forgive me.

I am scared that he will not think I am as exciting or good enough as the OW now, especially since she has caused him something new and exciting lately and all I have done is cause him pain.

We are both scared and don't really know what to do or how to get started. We both agree though that our love and marriage is worth saving.

I am also very scared that he is going to have a hard time breaking it off with the OW or change his mind and not do it at all.

I know I have learned a lot on this forum already and am going to reread and write down what a lot of you have said and use it.

I don't know how your finances are, but beg, borrow or steal (not really this one) the money if you have to and get on the phone with Steve Harley NOW.

You both are in a good position to right this listing ship, IMO. It is recoverable.

Yep, you know what to do. Even if he does have a FR, you still know what to do for that, too.

Be very careful to implement every possible EP after he goes NC.

It will be very critical to get 20+ hours of UA time in. This is not time you spend dissecting the A's, though that will need to happen some, too. This is time that the two of you spend happy time together, meeting EN's and learning (again) to associate good feelings with being together.

fifteen,

So glad the tide has turned don't be afraid, do what you know is right you can only control yourself so you do your part and the rest will fall into place, work with your husband support each other through this following the steps MB uses.......
Figure out each other's needs and then spend lots of fun time together........
It is so much fun falling in love again, you will feel like a teenager again.......
Keep posting the vets will walk you through it.......I couldn't be happier........dont' worry about the OW Your husband doesn't want her he want the old you back the girl he married give him that girl

Congratulations fifteenyears i knew it would work out for you. You have an opportunity that some of us would absolutely kill for and that is make it up to your husband. To attempt in some small way to make up for the actions that have hurt so many (not to say that your husband's actions haven't done the same) treasure this opportunity and give it your all. Keep posting here and listen to all great advice you will get. You have a long road ahead of you but you are lucky to be able to be on this road. you are in my prayers fifteenyears I hope it works out for you. You are truly a lucky woman and I can't help but envy you take care.

I have been very busy this week, as NG puts it riding the roller coaster from hell. I am hoping though that things are starting to look up.

Where are my H and I at now? Well, we are talking again and sharing our feelings. We are starting to take care of each others EN's. He has broken it off with the OW and we are going to write the NC letter tonight, together. We are also going to create a list our EP's and EN's and keep them in an "US" notebook.

I am still very scared because I know we have a very long, hard, road. I am confident thought that the MB +True Love combo is exactly what we need and what we have needed all along. We both have to learn to trust and forgive each other, ALWAYS!

Please pray for both of us. This is sounding like a farewell forum speech but I promise you it is not. I still have a lot to learn and my H has started to open up to this site and forum.

RL, I will continue to pray for you and wish you the best. No matter what do not give up hope in yourself!

15yrs, that is great news! I would caution you about a couple of things, though. Not having a plan for recovery is a plan to fail. Most marriages do not recover from affairs. Just look at those around this forum that didn't go through recovery the first time. They are back with repeat affairs. Recovery does not happen by accident.

GEt his committment to go through this program completely. Cherry picking never works. It has to be complete. Dr Harley is not kidding when he says it is a very narrow path.

There are several ways to do this listed here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi9000_courses.html

And here is Harley's excerpt from Requirements for Recovery:

here

15,

Congrat, on your marriage now having a chance. I would read Mel's comments to you very carefully, don't "cherry pick" the concepts.

Let me address a few things you have said and offer you ideas from my perspective. You probably have done many of them so I apologize in advance for boring you.

You said
Excellent idea, did you write a NC letter to your most recent OM? If not, you should as well.


Ok, this may be long but I want you to share it with him and discuss what I have to say. You don't have to agree with me, but discuss it. First, forgiveness is a gift you give yourself. At some time he will realize as will you, that offering the grace of forgiveness will help him more than hanging on to the hurt. This concept has been discussed on this site many times over the last decade or so. Some say it is the act of deciding to not seek retribution from someone who has wronged you, although they can never make up for what they did. Some say it is a "setting aside" of accountability for what has been done, again because no one can go back in time and UNDO what has been done. HOWEVER ALL AGREE FORGIVENESS IS NOT FORGETTING! This is very important. Many people confuse forgiveness with the act of forgetting what has happened.

Frankly, the last thing either of you want to do is forget what has happened. Now the feelings associated with the memories will disassociate from one another with time. Why should you not forget? Why should he not forget? Because you don't learn from things you forget. "Those that forget history are condemned to repeat it." This quote works for both of you. AS your marriage gets better and better with sharing and better communications you two will look back years from now and realize how special it was to overcome these failures. This is important.

Now for trust, let's take this apart for a moment. Harley states clearly that one should NEVER blindly trust their spouse. It leads to taking things for granted, it leads to assumptions, etc. But, what is trust, really it is the belief we have that someone will behave in a predictable manner in any given situation. This belief that we can predict someones behavior is based on past behavior with the more recent past more heavily weighted.

Your H can learn to trust you, and you can learn to trust him if your behavior is consistent with your words and promises. The longer each of you synch's up behavior and words, the more either can trust the other. Here is something else. Communications! The more you communicate your feelings, plans, goals, the easier it is to see if the actions are matching up. Us guys have a harder time with communications, but often that is a protective strategy. You need to know this and make sure he knows that YOU will protect him. You both need to understand how males and females communicate, there are more than a few books on the matter, read them, discuss them, and learn. You both will enjoy one another much more in the future.

A reasonable fear. But consider that most men bond with their spouse via sex. IT IS the way most men do that, I know that women don't realize this but it is nevertheless true. So consider how he felt about your A's. He has the same fear. Tell him about your fear, ask him if he fears the same thing. You just might find that he went to another woman not just for revenge, but perhaps more importantly to determine if he was still a "man". Your affairs rejected him as a husband and a man.

I am not excusing his affair. It was just as poor a choice as yours. I am saying talk to him, tell him what you fear. Tell him what you want. Ask him what he wants. It may be something the OW did, but most likely he wants to feel wanted, needed, and desired. Do NOT underestimate the need to be NEEDED. It is strong in men.

Excellent. Start by talking, holding one another, laughing, and being very honest. He will trust you more if you are honest even if it might hurt him for awhile. Read Harley's articles on figuring out needs and then discuss how each of you want them met. This is an excellent way for you two to sit side by side and discuss his concepts will beginning to touch on very difficult topics.

Just as he fears you will do it again.

Excellent idea.

Oh! one last thought. I will use my own life experience to make a point that many have made to you about EP's. I was a bachelor into my 30's I had a very enjoyable bachelor life. When I married I traveled alot. Up to three weeks out of four. I decided when I married that I would make sure that I never strayed. I did this by deciding to never go anywhere there was music or dancing while I was traveling. I would not hang out in a bar. I would dine alone unless the group I was meeting with dined as a group. I would return to my room and work/read/watch TV. I have followed that plan for 36 years now and I have never been tempted to stray. Not because I am up for Sainthood, but simply because I removed myself from temptation. Now this may sound boring and it was, but really I only traveled to work.

My point if you and your H develop plans to avoid temptation and also plans to make each other happy, you can both protect yourselves from the temptation to stray. It is also much easier to follow those plans if when you are together, the times are good.

Much more to say, but discuss this with your H and then go do some reading here and within Harley's books.

God Bless,

JL

ML and JL,

Thank you for your wise words. JL, I have encouraged my husband to read what you wrote. We have been talking and very slowly trying to build up our relationship again. My H did request last night that he still needed his space. He is not ready to jump back into us yet and really needs time to reflect on himself and what he needs.

While this hurt to hear, it was him being completely honest with me for the first time in several months. He told me that he does not want to quickly get back together based on my emotions. That he needs to make sure that it is what he wants.

If I would have never found this site, I would have been devastated by this and possible very angry about this decision.I would have given him an "or else" option.

That however was the old me. I have to realize that even though I WANT more than anything to be together and have him back home in my arms. He NEEDS his space to think and heal.

We are still talking and spending time together but he asked me not to pressure him on any decisions right now. I have to respect this and be patient and accepting of whatever he wants.

For the past few weeks, I have had a sick feeling in my stomach that would not go away. Even the other night when we talked about getting back together, the sick feeling would not go away.

Last night when my husband finally opened up to me and let everything he was feeling out, that feeling went away. Again, it was not what I wanted to hear but his complete honestly with me gave me a sense of relief that I have not had in a very long time.

BABY STEPS

I told you you were "in".

Sometimes an "I-told-you-so" can be lots of fun.

I'm skeptical of a man that just had sexual relations with another woman not his wife....that he JUST sent a "no contact" letter to...demanding/requesting essentially no questions asked "space".

You may not be in a position to demand "no contact" but (I'm asking here) can you ASK that he commit to his recent promise of "no contact" and provide accountability (just as you are willing to provide any and all accountability that HE needs to demonstrate that you aren't in contact with OM or any other men).

An unwillingness to be accountable is a pretty good indicator that he remains in contact and, as such, an active affair which means you aren't making any RECOVERY progress whatsoever.

You can't recover your marriage with a third party involved so despite how badly you want a chance....allowing him to cake eat at some point really won't behoove either of you.

Not sure where to direct you from here...just something to think about.

Mr. W

Mr. W

I will not lie, I am a little uneasy about the situation as well. He has sent her a "no contact" letter via my request. We blocked her numbers on our phone account and he gave me his email account password. It is through his work and he cannot erase any emails because they are all archived.

Am I a little worried that he might have another account, YES! I asked him and he said no. Am I worried that he might try to contact her even though he has told me that he wants nothing to do with her anymore, OF COURSE!

He has acted very accountable telling me everything about her and giving me access to his accounts. I still have a fear however. I think anyone would. And I am conflicted on whether or not I am in the position to question his every move.

We are spending a lot of our time together even though he has asked for some space, he still has come over every night this week to see me and the kids.

I do want us back together but I am not willing and not blind to the fact that she has to be completely out of the picture before we can move on. My instincts tell me she is, but there is still a gut wrenching feeling in my stomach that says she is not.

Not sure exactly what to do at this point?

Were you on the radio show today?

Quietly snoop, and also observe his behavior over the next few weeks. If he's in NC, he will progressively de-fog. If he's still in C, expect quite a bit of wayward-level anger and increasing fog.

It's not an exact science, but you'll have a pretty good idea.

Snooping is your best source of hard intel.

Yes, that was me.

Thanks for the advice. I am not going back into this blind and will not compete with an OW. I want our marriage to work but not until he is ready and committed.

15,

You of all people know how addictive an affair can be. Be aware that your H will and must go through a withdrawal phase and even if he is not in contact, he will be moping around. If he seems very happy, then watch out. He is getting his fix.

Mr.W's admonition to be wary is very much spot on. You cannot demand anything (not because you don't deserve to) because a good relationship is not full of demands. He must make his decisions and you must make yours.

You have done well so far. Keep growing and learning, talk with him about what I posted and remember if you feel relieved by his honesty how he will feel as you are fully honest with him and that includes your feels. He cannot fix your feelings, but he needs to know what you are dealing with.

Please, please don't try to guilt him into something. Just reach out and touch him, let him know he can talk to you about anything including his feelings for OW. This will be tough for you, but as he opens up he will see who really has his back.

Hang in there you are doing well. Have confidence in that at least.

God Bless,

JL

Everyone, I just want to thank you again for your advice, honesty, help, perspective, and everything you have done to not only get me through this but make me truly see who I am and what I want to become.

Without going into to many details because if you can't already tell, I am a little wordy at times, I know for a fact that my H's OW is out of the picture. This however does not mean that I will not continue to snoop or turn a blind eye to anything that seems out of the ordinary.

As far as him wanting space, I have come to figure out that he is just not quite ready to jump right back into our marriage. Now, I know that sounds fishy but let me just tell you what the last three days together have been like.

First of all, we have spent A LOT of time together. So even though he has not moved back in, we are spending quality time together. We have talked honestly about all of the A's and have asked each other a lot of questions about why they happened, what was wrong with our marriage etc...

We have honestly (play on words) been more honest with each other and had the best conversations with each other than in the past few days than we have in our entire marriage.

I have come to discover that my two most EN's are conversation and honesty. Two things that my husband was not giving me during out marriage. Yes, we talked but we never really talked about how we were truly feeling. I have come to discover that I NEED this more than anything in my marriage and have shared this with my husband.

Now when my husband ask for space, I believe he is really asking to take things very slow. Which I am trying to do although it is hard because I like to "fix" problems quickly. Unfortunately I know that there is no quick fix. He is still very scared to give me his heart and is still dealing with the thought that I could do this again.

I know deep down in my heart that I will NEVER do this again. Why? Because I have learned from this site the EP's that I HAVE to follow to stay out of trouble. I have done some really deep digging to discover who I am and why I made the mistakes I made. I am not pushing this mistake under a carpet and forgetting the pain that it has caused to so many people.

Most of all, even though it did not deserve it, I got a dose of my own medicine. Let me tell you, it does not taste good. The pain of being betrayed because of my betrayal is some of the worst pain I have ever felt in my life. It is just as bad as having someone close to you die. To know that I inflicted this pain on my husband twice because of my own selfishness, hurts the worst.

I have told him this but again, he is going to have to see it in me, through me. I tried to push him at the beginning and it sent him running in the other direction. I don't want to guilt him, I don't want to push him, I just want to be here for him.

I will continue to use your advice and guidance to help me be the best me I can be (I'm a poet).

Thank you again and continue to guide and pray for me.

Fifteen

Does not sound fishy to me at all, under the circumstances.

Stay focused.
You are still "in", yanno?

Suggestion:
Start wearing your husband's shirts around the house.
That really helped me stay emotionally connected to my H when we were not together.

This is where I went wrong. I forgot the pain it caused us and got wrapped up in ME! Thanks JL for pointers that I lost.

15,
Thanks for posting on my thread. You are really going through a rough time. I am praying for you both.

senninpaswife,

You are more than welcome. I truly hope it helps both of you.

God Bless,

JL

Alright, I am coming to the experts again for advice on my recent situation with my BS. Everything is moving very fast but also very slow and my emotions are so conflicted. I need help and want to make sure I am doing the right thing.

I have finished SAA and have taken A LOT of notes. Dr. and Joyce Harley sent me Love Busters and I just got it today. I am going to begin reading it tonight. So I am on board to recovery, my husband however is still reluctant.

I am going to give you guys some very personal info but I think you need it to completely understand my situation and give me the best advice. So here goes...


Last week my husband and I started having sex again. It has been amazing for both of us. we even spent the weekend together with our kids. Even though he seemed a little cold this past weekend, I was excited that he decided to hang with us.

On Sunday I tried to talk to him about coming back home and he got real uncomfortable and said he still did not know what he wanted and he has to know for sure before he makes any decisions. He also said that I was being pushy and it made him uncomfortable.

This week we started sexting each other and he started to smile and laugh with me again. It feels great but then he leaves and I feel sad.

A part of me understands how he is feeling and know I have to be patient and continue to work on myself and my flaws. Another part of me however feels like he is trying to have his cake and eat it too...let me explain!!!

I feel like he is living the single independent life (no kids, no wife, no curfew, no responsibilities) but then he can come to me whenever he wants to get the EN's he needs. I am afraid that he will get used to this and never want to come home. Am I being ridiculous? Am I being selfish?

Don't get me wrong, we have come a long way in just a couple of weeks, but I just don't know how long I can emotionally do this. He has the peace of mind that I am at home each night with the kids while I am left wondering. He broke my trust with his own affair and even though I know without a doubt that the OW is gone, I still hate that he is not in bed with me at night.

I guess I am just looking for a timeline if there is one. I don't want to be pushy but know that in order to revive our marriage, we need to start recovery. We have already taken a few baby steps but I just feel like we can't really start until my H is back under our roof.

Let me know what you think.

Still riding the roller coaster!!

I think the problem is just as Dr Harley said it was, that he is scared to death of you. He doesn't WANT to feel in love with you and is scared to take the next step.

I would not push him. Rather, I would counsel with Steve Harley and let Steve sell him on a plan and show him that it will be different this time.

You don't have to push him, 15yrs, you have time to make this work.

If he is not PROVABLY in NC, and verifiably accounted for at all times (e.g. staying with your father or his pastor at night if he's not ready to come home), assume the A is ongoing.

Even allowing for the BS element, this behavior smells like a rotting mackerel.

During Plan A, you can verbally express your boundaries, though not sticking to them yet. "Honey, I know I have hurt you, and I apologize for my part in this. I want to be in a M where we love each other, and where we both sleep in the same bed."

Also keep snooping. If there's something to find, you want to be sure to find it. DO NOT let him know what you're doing. Keep all sources secret. If you find something, come on here before confronting.

Because of your own A, I recommend a slightly longer Plan A if possible, more toward the 6-week side of the 3-6 weeks Dr. H advises. You need more time to show your changes are genuine, if you're able to do it without causing harm to your health.

If that amount of time goes by and he is still acting like this, and unwilling to be verifiably NC, then you would need to go dark. Your own A does NOT mean that you must submit indefinitely to the abuse of a RA.

15,

I agree with Mel and Neak, but I have a few additional thoughts for you to consider. Let's review what he said and discuss how he might be seeing it. All I am going to say presupposes that his affair is over and he is out of withdrawal OK?

You said The first part of this would probably frighten him. It was great, he was feeling it, and he starts to feel himself reconnecting to you. Then he thinks it only took you a few weeks to get him to this state and the fear starts.

What could he fear? He fears he won't be able to detect when you find him to be less than you need. He fears that while the sex was great, he was not good enough to keep you in his bed. He fears that he is being a "wimp" be letting you into his heart. YOU MUST UNDERSTAND what he fears are what he sees as his failures that have led to your affair.

You don't have that fear because you think and he claims it was your affair that led to his affair. Do you see where I am going?

The point, he is on an emotional roller coaster so expect a "little cold" after "hot". If you are consistent and honest gradually the ups and downs of his roller coaster will diminish.

Then you said You were cornering him to make a commitment and he cannot with his fears. Listen to what he said, it is HIS truth, to him you were pushy.

You continue to make home inviting to him both because the children are there and because you are fun to be around and he will gradually conquer his fears. And remember one of his fears is that he will think himself a "wimp" if he gives in to you. So don't push, encourage.

I do a lot of business with government entities. I learned decades ago, that one should NEVER ask a question where the easy answer is NO! If you talk to him about coming home you are setting yourself up for the "easy" answer. Time and patience 15. You can do this.

One last point Dr. Harley has a concept called "disrespectful judgements". The definition of which has changed over the past decade or so. But one important things to remember by any definition it is one of the deadliest of love busters. You have a classic example in this post. You said You are assuming you know how he is thinking. You are assuming that you know the motivation for his actions. You are assuming that because you feel the burden of the family he is running from this burden. The odds are high you are wrong. But, if you act on these assumptions with no data to back them up, you are likely to set back recovery. You are not being selfish, you are committing a disrespectful judgement.

Learn to see these things. Ask yourself where is the data? Am I projecting something from me onto him? How can I obtain data that would confirm my judgement? Work on that, but don't act on a disrespectful judgement.

Do you see the point?

You are doing well 15. I know it seems like this has been going on forever, but recovery is measured in years, not weeks or months.

Hang in there.

God Bless,

JL

Thank you so much! You always help me see things from my husbands eyes and perspective. You are a Godsend JL and I thank you!

Thank you for your wise words. Patients is one of my many weaknesses that I am working on.

I will assume you meant patience. Which is the ability to tolerate delay. It seems pretty passive. Waiting.

How about looking at your perseverance instead of patience?
Perseverance is the continuation on a course of action even in the face of difficulty. Determination of follow through. When you give yourself something to work on, I think working on an action is better than working on waiting.

Am I arguing semantics? Yes, somewhat.
But more than semantics, I want to encourage a state of mind.

You GO GIRL! Fix your eyes on your MB plan and Persevere !

I just had to bring this to your thread.


You're 'getting it'.
I can tell you're 'getting it' by the advice you're offering.

I am pleased.
Just thought you might use the positive feedback.
You have not been on MB long.
You're a fast (motivated?) learner.

keep it rollin' .................

Once again I am here and am wondering "What to do". I will give you the very short and sweet version of how I am feeling and then I will have to give some details so the big guns can help me.

Short and Sweet - My husband is taking all of my love units and not doing a very good job of giving back.

I know this sounds very selfish on my part, and maybe it is, but please read the details below. Then you can tell me if I am being selfish and irrational.



I have to go back a little ways just to give you a little insight on our "old" marriage. In our old marriage I met every one of my husbands EN's. He even said this himself a few weeks ago. I pleased him sexually and on a regular basis, I allowed him to have his free time but we also spend quality time together. I have kept myself fit and attractive for him and often times dressed up just to impress him.

However, over the years I felt like he started to take advantage of me. Long story short, a lot of my EN's were not being met and I never felt that I could express this to him. Again, no excuse for what I did, but definitely reasons that I have begun to address.


Now today, I am trying very hard to take in all of your advice, read the books and better myself in every way. I already know that no matter what happens, MB will be a part of my future life. I have expressed this to my husband and this is where I think the problem lies.


First of all this is where we are now
1. We are actively having sex
2. He is still saying he does not know what he wants
3. He has come over and spent the night a few times
4. We have been talking, laughing, enjoying each others company


The other side of it though
1. He has been drinking and going out with his alcoholic dad and brother...A LOT

2. Last Wednesday he showed up at the house at two in the morning, drunk and wanting to be with me

3. Last Friday I had to pick him up at the Casino, because he was too drunk to drive home.

4. He has shunned God for now and stopped going to church

5. He is not spending very much quality time with his kids, in fact the past couple times I have had to ask him to spend time with them.

6. I have tried not to be pushy but whenever I ask him about working on our marriage, he blows it off and says he needs more time to work on himself.

7. He is not being very productive at work (one of the reasons he gave me why he needed more time was to really focus on work)


This is how I feel right now:

1. I feel like I am being used for sex and he is having his cake and eating it to. I know JL you said I should not assume this but his actions lately have led me to think otherwise.

2. I am positive that there is not an OW (I have been keeping both eyes wide open) but I honestly feel like alcohol and going out have become his OW.

3.I really miss our partnership and need the entire marital package. The sex is not enough for me anymore and although I am really trying it is taking an emotional toll on me.

4. I feel like he is once again sweeping things under the carpet, he is just drowning it in a bottle instead. He refuses to "deal" with the situation so he is dealing in his own unhealthy way.

5. I feel he likes the idea of MB but is scared of it because he knows that it will require a lot of work and changes for both of us. He has gotten used to going out whenever he wants both within our marriage and now. He doesn't like the idea of actually asking me if it is okay (something that I have wanted for years that he has never been able to do)

6. I just feel like we are not moving forward that he wants to stay on this plateau because he has me where he wants me but he can still do whatever he wants.




Last night was the real kicker for me. He is house sitting for a friend of his parents right now. When I text him at 6:30 to see what he was doing he said that he was just hanging out with the dogs. We texted back and forth for awhile and then he texted me and asked If I wanted to come over and have some "none obligation" sex. For some reason this really hurt my feelings. It made me feel cheap and not loved. I expressed this to him and he said I was "missing the point".

Well around 9:30 I decided to call him to say goodnight and he did not answer his phone. The second time I called it went straight to voice mail. Using my spying skills and programs I found out that he was at a local bar with his dad (his dad goes there EVERY Friday night).

When he did finally call me back he did tell me where he was (I already knew). I told him that I was hurt that he lied to me about what he was doing and he basically told me that he decided to go up there last minute, that he doesn't have to check in with me because we are not living under the same roof, and I was being irrational.



Guys, help me!!! I want to save my marriage and I feel like he does too but I feel like I am doing all of the work. I am trying to have patience and perseverance. I have not been pushy and have let him have his space. When we are together I try to do everything for him, make him comfortable, joke with him, have sex with him, and show him that our home is warm and inviting and we miss him.

I'm running low though on a lot of things and really feel like I need to let him know this. I am just not sure how to do it and what to say or do.

15,
Reading this sound just about where we are, other than you are plan Aing like a champ, and my WW is slowly coming up to speed like a freight train.

I see your list and see a lot of me in there. I suck at work, no motivation- depression. Have been distant and sex is the only thing that seems to get us close, she may see it like you do-not sure about that.

I can only wish my WW had your motivation. She has been discouraged by my ups and downs and unwillingness to commit to the marriage. The only difference I see here is we are still living together.

You are doing all the work, and it will pay off. He is seeing hope in you and a person who really cares about him and his marriage. Don't give up, keep doing what your doing and he will start coming around. It's going to take some time.

Thanks Sen that means a lot, especially coming from the perspective of someone in almost the exact same situation as my husband. I was feeling pretty hopeless this morning...seeing your post really helps.

P.S. I am praying and thinking about you and your wife on a daily basis.

Might be a good time and issue to call into the radio show and speak to Dr. Harley about.

On one hand...he's conflicted and testing you in a if you truly care about me...you'll keep fighting for me. On the other hand he could be partially or fully just punishing you. On the third hand he could be heading for problems with substance abuse and escapism himself.

At some point...not today...but upon a time line you perhaps discuss with Dr. Harley you've got to erect boundaries. Something like..."I'm not going to divorce you but I'm not going to continue tolerating this treatment either" and you'll simply follow Dr. Harley's plan in "When to Call it Quits" yourself. However...the "Quits" part to me...especially in your position wouldn't be divorce...just a prolonged Plan B giving him two years at least to pull his crap together and commit to being in a relationship with you.

That being said...if the problem is (or is becoming) his relationship with alcohol...perhaps Alanon for you would be a source of comfort and advice. He could be sinking down this whole and need his wife to help pull him out. He doesn't realize he has a problem YET...but just you going to the meetings may wake him up. I don't know....no personal experience.

Again...I don't know when or how these boundaries come into play best when used by a former wayward wife on her recently betrayed husband. It's delicate as he may be fragile (I say may because he may know exactly what he's doing and intentionally punishing you which is mean and unhealthy for him...I've seen the divorce betrayed husbands who like to punish their wayward wives, other people's former wayward wives and just all or most women in general come through these boards and it ain't pretty). I understand your husband's hesitancy to be in relationship with you but at some point sooner than later for you, the kids and himself...he's got to choose.

I wish you well.

Mr. Wondering

Might as well go to the 'kicker'.


This definitely sounds like a 'test' to me.
Are you still 'that woman' who is willing to have non obligation sex?

I think you did OK.
May I suggest an alternative?
Not to criticize, but to help you expand your repertoire.
Just so you can respond to future 'tests' in more pro-marriage ways, and come across less defensive.

15, a 'test' of what your boundaries might currently be is far less accusatory than him saying you currently have low boundaries. You 'get' that, right?
So respond as if his intention were to test you, not to insult you.

Something along these lines:

"I'm holding out for love and lovemaking."
"I did not like myself when I strayed from my values."
"That's not what I am looking for."
"You are very sexy. I want more than just sex."
"I want to love you with every fibre of my being."
"Just having sex when I desire love, would be dishonest of me."

You get the idea.

It will be easier for you to respond non defensively after some practice.

Plan B was suggested to me by some posters, but not others. Dr. H actually weighed in on the issue on my thread, and said that the effect of my doing Plan B on my BH would be the end of our M... Dr. H on Plan B. I was on the MB radio show 2x where both times he advised against Plan B.

I don't know what the answer is, 15...if you've read my sitch, I'm in a similar boat, except H did move back home, and it's been over 2 years now since full disclosure of my PA. As a FWW, I often feel as though I've essentially weakened - if not destroyed - my negotiating position. I completely understand & agree with what Mr. W is saying about erecting boundaries, but have had little success in doing so myself with my H, so can't advise you there. I've continued operating on the belief that this is what holds true for my H:

...but at the same time, being in Plan A for approximately 15 months (admittedly not always the best Plan A), and dealing with some pretty major life issues apart from our M, has been a struggle.

The differences I see from my sitch are that 1) you're not very far into this - with your D-day being last November, things are relatively recent; 2) he has slid somewhat into WS behavior himself with a budding EA although you believe that it is over (I think I have that right?) and 3) there could be some potential chemical addiction issues - addiction is a disease that can have a genetic component and you've stated his father and brother are alcoholics.

An email to the radio show is an excellent idea. Dr. H and Joyce are great to talk to, and extremely helpful.

I was actually on the radio show a couple weeks ago. Dr. H suggested that the very best thing for our marriage would be for my husband to come back home. We actually talked today about it and what my H does not get is the MB is a way to improve your marriage. He keeps taking it as my way to try to "change" him. He just get insulted and upset and says "I thought we had a good marriage, it disappoints me that you didn't". I really tried to explain to him today that MB gives you the tools and knowledge to make a good marriage even better. That I don't want to change him but want to make our marriage the best one it can be. I actually think I might have gotten through but he still says he is not sure what he wants and needs more time.

Once again I need some advice from the pros. Just a very quick recap on what has been going on since last weekend.

1. We have been spending a lot of time together but he still will not committed to moving back yet. We had a very long and productive talk on Sunday morning about respecting each other and our marriage.

2. We went to a friends Super Bowl party together on Sunday and we were both very affectionate with each other and comfortable together.

3. He has not been going out and or drinking. He has been telling me what he is doing when we are not together.

4. I actually went to help him at work on Monday and we went to dinner on Tuesday.

The past few days have been great but I think I might have might have made a mistake. Having sex with him without having any kind of commitment and without him even considering moving back home is really emotionally affecting me. I told him this and while I did not use selfish demands and say commit or else, I did say that until he knows for sure what he wants I do not know if I can continue having sex with him because it hurts me emotionally.

I told him this on Sunday evening and he seemed a little upset at first but we have continued to talk, be affectionate, and hang out...just not with any sex.

The problem is I am now feeling guilty about this and wondering if I made the right decision. A part of me says yes that if I continue to have sex with him then he has the best of both worlds and will never come home but another part of me says that I am using this as an unconscious "selfish demand".

The other night at dinner he told me that he still feels that coming home means he is officially giving me his heart back and he is just not ready to do this. He says that he has to be able to trust me and forgive me first. I however feel that him coming home and being with me is the only way for him to find out if he can truly trust and forgive me.

I guess what I am taking forever to get at is, did I make the right decision to stop making love to my husband until he knows what he wants or am I being selfish?

Well I think it has to be a mutual decision for the two of you, right now if you don't feel it's the right thing yet then he will understand as long as you explain the reason to him......
Just keep spending great time together, go slowly and eventually it will seem normal and part of the relationship again........I am a BS but remember feeling that way a couple of times and slowed things down........
But in the end you are a married couple and your sex life is part of sharing and being in an intimate relatioship......as long as the rest happens it will feel right so work on those parts .........
sounds like things are moving well..........

I would think that you would want to take EVERY opportunity to demonstrate to your husband that you will fulfill all of his emotional needs.

This is your Plan A time -- even though things are backwards.
You are trying to entice your husband back to the marriage.
I don't understand why you would put up barriers.

...did I make the right decision to stop making love to my husband...

Probably not. Try this simple exercise: 1)Mentally swap genders 2)change the EN in question. So this yields (from a WH in your exact situation): Did I make a mistake to stop performing maintenance on my wife's car?

A lot easier to consider that right? And certainly the answer would be an easier, "Moron! You have the opportunity to do some serious Plan A activities, and you don't want to get your hands dirty!!!"

Sadly, you have the pervasive 21st-century female view that SF is somehow the be-all and end-all between married couples, and is to be doled out by the wife if the husband has been worthy. NO, IT'S ONLY ONE OF MANY THINGS THAT SHOULD BE ENJOYED AS A COUPLE. (And at my advanced age, my crawling under my bride's vehicle to change the oil is a helluva lot more of a demonstration of love and affection than her agreeing to get frisky!)

...am I being selfish? No, just uneducated. However, if you maintain your prior attitude, having had this sterling lesson, THEN you would be selfish!

15, my H had the same request - "no strings" sex - after he moved out.

I was often very conflicted about it, myself. On the one hand, it was a way for me to meet one of H's needs and make deposits in his LB$. On the other hand, I struggled with feeling used for sexual purposes. Things weren't always "wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am", but sometimes they were. I cried a lot of tears, but I continued to make myself available to him for SF. He's great in bed, so it's not like I was getting a raw deal...it was the "IF ONLY" part I kept getting hung up on...SF with my husband would be great IF ONLY he'd tell me he loved me...IF ONLY he'd move home...you get the picture?

Dr. H's advice, on my thread, was that SF should be mutually enjoyable, that it should not cause either party massive LB$ withdrawals.

That is the question you have to ask yourself - does SF with your H cause withdrawals from your LB$? Can your LB$ handle that withdrawal in light of the potential for you to make a larger deposit in HIS LB$?

Have you approached that BH moving home would help the family to save money?

That him moving home does not signal BH has been convinced you have changed. Though that living back home will make easier for him to see you puting in the necessary work to self improve.

As to SF, if seen one spouse just string along the other spouse for SF only to pull and adios baby.

But read up on SF and what hysterical bonding is and how it helps the WS and BS reconnect and bond. You know how bad your BH wants SF. You did not deny OM SF. Now you want to Deny BH SF.

Black and white statement but BH seeing himself being cut off again because of all the manure started by the OM you have a BH possibly getting madder at the OM instead of the OM and your affair with the OM.

Send an email to the Harley's it may get answered for free on their radio show. You got the money honey, call you for the best way to handle SF and how to have a new strategy from them on how to handle BH with where he is now.

You sure didn't have any trouble not turning the OM down. What do you think turning your BH down does to him emotionally knowing this?? I would've been crushed. He's got this mental movie (with no stop or pause button) running through his head that he is trying to purge and you pull this?? It's still more about you and your feelings when it should be about his.

You're acting like he should be trying to earn something back from you instead of you earning something back from him. Your thinking is ALL bassackwards.

Seems to me that YOU were the only one to enjoy that luxury!

Okay, now you're finally on to something.

You can't repair this mess living separately.

Hell no to the first question, and Hell yeah to the second!!!!

Going to be completely honest here; if you were my wife and you pulled that stunt with me the next time you would see or hear from me would be divorce court. And I am NOT kidding. Help this man heal in any way you can! If it makes you feel cheap, well tough. You brought it on yourself. Welcome to the consequences of your actions.

ETA- This is just my opinion, from the twice betrayed male perspective. Not to be conveyed as any MB endorsed advice. There...CYA accomplished!

TW,

Everything you said is dutifully noted and appreciated. I think I am just a little more sensitive because my husband had a RA on me so it adds another twist into this situation and my emotions. I agree though, I need to suck it up because I do enjoy SF and I do think that it is bringing us closer. Thank you!!

I am in NO way condoning what he did. Don't take what I said as that. But ask yourself one question and answer with complete honesty; Do you think his affair would have occurred had yours not?

Not that he's off the hook for what he did, but his RA was born out of rage, anguish, despair, and an adolescent desire to get a little payback; to try and assuage some of that hurt you inflicted on him (your affair, not so much). I'm betting it didn't work, and now he feels even worse than he did before. Yet he's still battling his own demons and fighting his way back to you.

And you hold him at arms length......



Give him a reason to want to come home. All you're doing now is giving him a reason to stay away.

This seems very contradicting to me. As if, "well, he did have a really good excuse."

And I could be wrong, but I thought A's were born out of lack of boundaries, etc...not anger, immaturity and sadness...which seems to be the excuses most WS like to blame to begin with.

fifteen years...just wanted to send you support.

I can imagine how dealing with being a WS and dealing with being a BS is very difficult...and confusing at times.

Is your WH as remorseful about his A as you seem to be about yours? What is he doing to win you back? Would that help you with the SF?

I completely agree with you TW, that he would not have done what he did IF I would not have done what I did. But isn't that just making excuses for his actions? Does't that in a sense give me justification to say I would not have done what I did IF....

I cannot and will not make any excuses for my actions. I can name a number of reasons but there is and NEVER will be an excuse for hurting my spouse like that. That is one thing I have come to realize on this forum and reading all of the information on this site and in the books.

I completely understand that my actions led to his choice to have an affair, but it was his CHOICE not mine. I will take the blame for the reasons why it happened, but I will not be the excuse.

With that said, I have and never will throw what he did in his face. I have made peace with what he did, not sure if I can say that I have forgiven him quite yet. I am just saying that my emotions are very mixed up right now because I have guilt, shame, and fear from being both the WS and the BS all in a very short period of time.

Rubydoo,
He is remorseful, but like TW he says that he never would have done it, if I would not have done it first. He is being very affectionate with me and we are spending a lot of time together but he still says he does not know what he wants. I think this is what is playing with my emotions the most, the fear that he is going to walk away at any moment.

Me either, I have already taken them down and feel much better

NG,

I always appreciate your wise words and radical honesty. I called my husband right after reading your message yesterday. It went very well.

Thank you!

I don't see anything contradictory.
WW PA pushed BH out onto the slippery slope.

As Doc H said we are all wired to have an PA. Extra precautions are needed to prevent them.

Well this BH has boundaries only strong enough as long as his WW did not cross the line first. He never put boundaries in place strong enough to withstand a dday because this BH knew that they were never going to be needed.

Never needed just like the life boats that they removed off the Titanic before they finished building her.

Everyone knows a RA is wrong. Even the BS, because we have seen many a BS here spew their own fog babble justifying their going off to have a RA.

That's why we all try to talk a BS to back away from the revenge affair ledge before they leap.

fifteen, if I in ANY way implied that the responsibility for his affair lies on your shoulders, I apologize. That was not my intention at all and not what I meant to convey. I just wanted you to think about the "would he have done this if" part.

His RA is all on him. It was an incredibly stupid move on his part and he's gonna have to accept responsibility for it.

Do you think he would be open to starting his own thread here? I think it would do the both of you a lot of good.

I am also reading this as "well he had a really good excuse" but also as "it's not his fault because his wife had an A(s) first."

I'm sure most WS could blame actions of the BS as the reason why they had an A or got on the slippery slope...but at the end of the day the reason was you, the WS.

RD, TW, TR:

With all due respect, we can debate forever the causes for infidelities of every stripe, whether more-or-less worthy, but for the purpose of this thread, 15Y's spouse's actions are not at issue here. 15Y has significant work to do in cleansing her own half of the stable.

Anyway, just my thoughts....

I realize 15y is working on her...who else could she work on...but she is also a BS and I'm sure very hurt from that too.

TW, no need to apologize. I see exactly where you and The Road are coming from. I also agree with Rubydoo that he made the decision to stoop to my level. The saddest part is that he lost my kids trust and respect by doing this. They have started to trust me again but without him being home they are having a real hard time trusting him.
I have also tried to encourage him to get on here. He has gotten on a few times but reading and writing are not really his .thing. He did however read SAA which I was impressed by. I will continue encouraging him to get on without seeming to pushy. This site has been a miracle for me and I know it would be beneficial for him as well.

I just wanted to let everyone know that my husband moved back in this week. I am extremely excited but also very nervous as well. We are following the MB program and he has agreed to read Love Busters with me. We have been spending a lot of time together. I have not been keeping track of the exact hours but I am sure it is at least 15+.

Please continue to pray for me and support me. I am sure I will be coming back here often to get advice. Just curious if I should continue to stay on this thread or move onto the Recovery one?

Any additional advice or thoughts are welcome and thank you for everything I have learned and will continue to learn from you.


Fifteen

Congratulations! Baby steps

Good news.

I did not debate anything. 15years asked for input and I gave her my take.

You can chose to ignore her husbands actions but but they are an issue. His affair can not be swept under the rug. Neither one of the two affairs in this marriage can be swept under the rug.

As to 15 years has to clean her own side of the stable you are totally wrong.

Many a time it has been written here on MB that one spouse has to do the heavy lifting for the both of them to get recovery jump started. Combined with the both them manuring all over both sides of their stable it is not the time to say I'm only going to clean my manure on my side.

As to 15 years has to clean her own side of the stable you are totally wrong.

TR, sometimes it seems you go to great pains to refute someone else's point, even going so far as to make yourself appear totally ignorant of the MB tenets - or maybe you really are.

15Y's spouse is not here. If he were, it would be a wonderful opportunity to counsel him to start working on himself, as we are so diligently urging 15Y to work on herself. Having 15Y spend intellectual/emotional capital on whatever flaws exist within him is NOT efficient. Moreover, it would likely lead to a dead-end to her progress, as she would most assuredly notice the disparity in their situations.

MB is an action-biased plan. One's actions are designed to impact one's own composition. Whatever is to be the future of their marriage, our hope would be that the process would yield the best 15Y possible. That is the basis for the "cleaning one's own half of the stable" analogy.

As for your point about "often the initial burden falls unevenly on one spouse", you actually got that RIGHT! The reason for that, is that the spouse that is so "unfairly" loaded within the tasks of recovery/repair is the ONE SPOUSE THAT GETS TO MB FIRST! So, until the absent partner can be brought here (and "here" might only be to the books and practices), we rightly put our efforts to providing/guiding the partner in attendance with advice.

Okay, ugliness is over! 15Y: Good to hear of the positive developments. You should expect that there will be awkwardness as you and FBH re-approach each other. Keep these in mind:

1) Yours will not be a straight vector toward improvement. Manage the "dips" and keep the general trend in view.
2) When in doubt, let him take the lead.

When you stop ranting can you point out where I said her husband is on MB?

You like to atribute things to me that I did not say.

Being you don't like the way I say things then just don't respond to me.

Being you don't like the way I say things then just don't respond to me.

This, from the person whose initial gambit into this...exchange...was, to my advice:

So you want liberty to (in)correct MY posts, and haughtily resent my setting the record straight?

You, sir, are a VERY funny fellow!

15Y, sorry for this distraction from your good news.

15, I had responded to your post on my thread, but in case you missed it, I just wanted to congratulate you on this good news! The fact that he agreed to follow the MB program and is reading LB with you is huge, and shows he is interested in recovering your M and building it into something more.

Neak said it...baby steps! Try not to let yourself get discouraged...working together, you two have a chance to achieve so much more!

Things have been going very well for the past two weeks and my husband and I have been reading Love Busters. In addition our pastor is doing a series on marriage, sex, divorce etc... A lot of what he says is VERY similar to Dr. Harley. In fact I feel like he might have read one or more of his books to help him with the sermons.



This however would all end today and I am so scared that all of the baby steps we have taken took a giant leap back this afternoon. We went to a local art gallery because my daughters art work was on display. We were looking around and having a great time when all of the sudden my husband was in a big hurry to leave. His face was red and he looked really angry. I looked behind me and saw my OM. I immediately got sick to my stomach, grabbed my daughter and we literally ran out of the gallery.


My H completely shut down on me and as soon as we got home he said he needed to get away. That was three hours ago and I don't know what to do. I don't know if I should give him space, how much space, what I can do to help.

I am so worried about my H and feel so guilty about what happened. We had just had a conversation this morning about him needing to talk to someone to get out some of his anger so he did not take it out on me, and now this happens.

We also talked about how he is still in limbo and wants to give me his heart but is still scared. Now I am worried that this is going to make him run in the other direction and want to give up on us completely.

I just don't know what to do to help him.

Think about moving to a new town.

Time to call the realtor. Sell and move far away from the OM.

I'm so sorry this trigger happened to you both. You did exactly the right thing getting out of there ASAP. Just let your H know you are willing to do whatever he needs when he's ready to talk.

Yep, moving is the way to go. You won't realize how glad you are to have the sword of potential accidental contact hanging over both your heads, until it's not there.

Oh boy, as a betrayed man, I can clearly see what your BS is dealing with, and it's NOT easy 15! He's trying like hell to make something work with you after your betrayal and then has this tossed in his face unexpectedly during a recovery family outing? I don't think there's a font big enough to display the OUCH on this one.

When he comes home, and he will, sit him down, apologize like hell, and ask him what he wants YOU to do to ensure this never happens again. Make sure that you make him understand that you will do whatever he requires to recover your marriage. Anything! If it requires moving, then move.

These are steps you will have to take to preserve your marriage. Make sure you mean it if you offer it, because if you back peddle one bit when it all actually comes down, you're done.

No room for error on this one.

JMO

I am so scared that all of the baby steps we have taken took a giant leap back this afternoon.

NG to 15Y, 24 February 2012:

If your BH were here I'd gladly give him the advice I gave to MSS, when presented with a trigger.

• Accept the fact that the trigger is present.
• Analyze the trigger as regards "current" versus "historical" content
• Dismiss the trigger.

OM's existence is a historical fact, THAT'S ALL. He is dead to you, the sooner he is dead to your BH, the better off both of you will be.

Okay, NG, I have a little problem with this one. This isn't your typical trigger. A trigger, the way I see it, is a small reminder such as a song, movie, hotel,restaurant, etc.

What happened today pretty much transcends that. This is a blatant face to face with POSOM while they are out trying to rebuild the family unit. This goes WAY beyond trigger in my opinion.

The POSOM may be dead to her, but he is VERY much alive to BS. That's the problem, and it's not a problem that's gonna resolve itself just because POSOM is dead to her.

It is not dead to BS, and at this point, that's all that matters.

What happened today pretty much transcends that. This is a blatant face to face with POSOM while they are out trying to rebuild the family unit. This goes WAY beyond trigger in my opinion.

We can agree that the trigger was severe and upsetting. However OM's face/presence still falls into the "historical" category. If he had run up to 15Y and said something inappropriate, that would have gained "currency" in the calculation.

Changing venues is the ultimate remediative action for this, of course, as the three or four posters prior to me mentioned. But 15Y and XBH haven't moved, and if THAT decision was POJA'd, they're going to have to develop, or implement, other tactics to deal with the triggers of the future.

My tactic can work. I offered it. Mr 15Y is not here to be urged how to make it work. He should be.

We should be open to any other tactics. But "You must move" has been done.

NG, think about this for a second. Would you be so willing to call this "historical" if your OM were still alive? You have a luxury that 15y's hubby doesn't. Your OM is dead and gone, but his isn't, and he has many chances to run into him , evidenced by today. I think there's a big difference in the thought process when you consider all these factors.

You know that there is no chance of this kind of setback in your life. Again, he doesn't have that luxury, and today brought that to the surface, and he is rightfully enraged and mortally wounded....once more. Wouldn't you be?

I agree though, 15y's BS should get on board here. It would do him a world of good. Not to mention their marriage.

TW, you missed my subtle challenge in my answer.

I gave 15Y (and maybe her FBH) a possible tactic to deal with the situation (besides moving). You didn't like my idea, and I'm very okay with that, as mine is only based on my experiences (although POSOM in our case did manage to live a bit longer than 15Y has been here).

Saying "Your idea is not good", is less than useful if the alternative is "You poor thing...." I'm all for handing 15Y a tissue (or FBH a shot of single malt), but it is best accompanied by some advice.

So, what is your recommendation? (Moving having been already been posited.)

What happened was not just a trigger for the BH it was a trigger for the WW as well.

Something way more important that happened. What happened is that NC was broken three times once for the BH the WW and their child.

There will always be recovery problems as long as NC will be broken. It is evident that activities they do are also done by the OM. Changing their recreational activities for the rest of their lives to avoid OM will only serve to be a reminder of the OM and their changing their lives will serve to further trigger them that the OM is still controlling their lives.

This is not a problem of controlling triggers.

The problem is that they are not able to maintain NC with the OM.

They need to move far away form the OM.

It makes no sense to say the BH must handle contact with the OM when the situation to do whatever is necessary to have NC with the OM.

While moving sounds like a great idea, it is not possible right now. If my husband wants to move, I will be willing to do that in a heartbeat. But no matter what we cannot move tomorrow. My husband is hurting and while moving me be a future solution to the problem, it is not a solution right now. In addition,the gallery we saw him at is not even in our town.

Everyone is picking on NG right now but I honestly think he has a very valid point. My H just came back home this morning and he was more worried about me seeing him and the reaction that I had than anything else. He stated he is giving me tactics to deal with the situation right now and I trust his tactics.

In addition, I am also trying very hard to get my H on here. He stated the other day that he needed someone (other than a counselor) to talk to get get all of his feelings out. I really feel that this forum is the best thing for him but he has to come to that conclusion himself.

TW,

I just read over some of the things that you are saying and I also agree with a lot of your points. My H actually just read over some of the post on here as well (fingers crossed).

I am going to try to find some of Dr. H's words on triggers. If anyone has a link that would be great. If not I am going to fish around the website.

Thank you everyone for your advice. Keep it coming!

Everyone is picking on NG right now but I honestly think he has a very valid point.

Like there was ever any real doubt about that!

H...was more worried about me seeing him and the reaction that I had than anything else. He stated he is giving me tactics to deal with the situation right now...

He should come here, XVA. Let's hope he does.

He would be very welcome!

I didn't miss it, and wasn't necessarily disagreeing with you either. It was simply my opinion that being in such proximity to the OM was inherently dangerous to their recovery efforts. How many hits like that can either of them take before one or the other says enough?

No one was picking on anyone. Everyone stating his/her opinion is what this place is supposed to be about, as long as that opinion follows the MB recovery plan. I'm fully aware that I'm still in the learning process of MB, but you don't have to be 10,000 post count poster to know that any kind of contact with an AP could be fatal to any chance of recovery. I like your tactics for eliminating triggers and they can and will work as long as this contact is eliminated. If not, then nothing will work. So, how is this accomplished without getting as far away from the OM as possible if it's already been established that contact is likely to occur again if they don't?

Okay, this is where I'll gladly show my ignorance because I have NO idea.

First time here, cause two threads is all I seem to be able to monitor these days, but I just skimmed the last two pages and can I ask a question no one else has?

Why was OM at the gallery? Are you all art fans? Its another town right? Is he trying to reignite this? Does that need to be dealt with?

I will say walking out and wanting some time alone was completely understandable as a BS. I would have done the same at a minimum.. If that gives you comfort he is reacting reasonably and normally.

You beat me to it Reynolds.

15yrs, I had the same thing happen when OW showed up at one of my kids school recitals. She had no reason to be there.

It set me WAY back. Red flags were going off in my head all over. I kept asking myself why did OW think it was OK to show up there? I was sure that the affair had picked up again. That was the only way it made sense to me.

Why did The OM in your situation feel that it was OK to be at an art gallery where your daughter was exhibiting her work? Surely OM knew your connection to the exhibit.

Give some serious consideration to moving. You can only control yourself and this OM has no respect for your family and is spitting in your face.

Or you can spend the rest of your life trying to avoid OM and never really recovering.

I was thinking the same thing, is this a particularly odd coincidence?

If the town is near to both you and OM and somewhere where you would both visit regularly, then its a problem.

If however you travelled to visit this town and it is also far from OM - could he have known that you would be there? Is it possible he is keeping tabs and knew of your daughters exhibit?



Its what I would do too.

Love the opportunity to run into her boyfriend somewhere in town (however remote) by chance. Id then be able to bash his face in.

Just saying.

To clear a few things up. The art show yesterday had a number of different schools in the area showing off their artwork. His children are young and they must have had work in the art show as well.

I promise you that he did not follow me there. In fact, if we would not have run out of there in such a hurry I bet we would have run into his wife (something I would not want to do).

MSS - Believe me, I think it took everything my husband had not to run up to him and punch him out. His face was extremely red as we walked out the door.


On another note, TW I was JJ about everyone picking on NG. Sometimes sarcasm is hard to see in writing. I honestly appreciate every last word of advice on here whether is is by a weathered poster or someone new. I think everyone who post has something to add and agree that if it follows MB then it is valid and deserves a read.

In addition, I completely understand why my husband reacted the way he did. I was just worried about him and did not know what I could or should do on my end. I am still looking for the reading on triggers. Can anyone send me a link on this? I could not find it on the site today.

He is coming back home tonight and we saw each other briefly today. I am just trying to comfort him and telling him I will do whatever he wants and whatever it takes to help him through this.

NG, I am trying to get him on here without being pushy. He does always look over my shoulder when I am posting and I always allow him to read my posts when he wants. Today he was on for about a half an hour. Even just reading little bits of info is a lot for him and I think it helps.

TW - you certainly understand that I love the give-and-take on these threads, as long as the exchanges focus on the pertinent issues - and ours did! Spirited discussion can create joint insights where neither party had vision previously.

XVA - 30 minutes reading some of the more thoughtful notes here can give an evenly proportioned view of the thrust of this site, and the principles/practices behind it. Good for your FBH!

15yrs. How are you going to ensure NC for life under these circumstances? Isn't that one of your EP's? As a BS who has been down this street...I was more interested in the NC for life than WS trying to help me deal with the trigger.

What can you do to keep this from happening in the future.

15Y,

What I picked up on, was that the OM was able to attend this show without any feelings of awkwardness or shame, while your BH is still suffering. Did you adequately expose OM or did he get off the hook with no pain?

The punching the guy out would have been a good thing if you are continuing to live close by.

God Bless
Gamma

Gamma,
His wife is the one who exposed us to my H. Since this day I have had NC with him at all. My H and his W talked for awhile right afterwards but they no longer talk. As far as I know they are rebuilding their marriage as well but I have stopped allowing him or anything related to him being my business since my A was exposed.

Even seeing him yesterday only made me feel sick and shameful. It did NOT bring back any feelings of the HIGH that I experienced during my affair. Only pain for myself and for my H.

Pokerface,

I did promise NC for life. I will do whatever my H wants me to do to ensure this. Neither of us were thinking about the possibility of he and his family being at the gallery. We were thinking of our daughter and how proud we were that she made it into this show that was very exclusive.

I did not even assume that he would be there otherwise we would not have gone. As for other possible events that we could see each other at, there are little to none but If I even feel that there is a slight possibility, I will not attend.

I thought of why was OM there. Then I came to the conclusion that Why is not important but that the OM WAS there to be important.

As to can't move now.

HorseFertilizer!

You and BH look for new jobs, then put house up for sale. Even in a bad economy good people will proven track record to perform the job, and show they have a history of holding a job long term will have no problem finding new employment.

Exactly. I was just trying to show the anguish and doubt that an accidental meeting of the OW put into my own head. The intense anger was back with a vengeance. 15Y, don't discount the damage that this contact has made on your BH.


This may work in the short term but is not a good long term plan. It keeps the A in the top of your mind as you will always have to look over your shoulder and plan your every move to avoid OM. And despite all your efforts, chances are good that it could happen again.

This is not a good recovery plan.

Was your DD with you? I remember the look on my own DD face when she looked out at the audience and saw OW sitting in the front row. It was a look I cannot even describe. My heart was truly broken for my DD. It was at that point that I took control of my life to make sure that it would never happen again.

This doesn't matter one WHIT in determining the actual danger to you, totally separate and apart from the excruciating pain felt by your BH. Whether you felt it on the surface or not, that DID ABSOLUTELY trigger those parts of your brain that felt pleasure in OM's company. It set your R back, whether you feel like it did or not.

This wasn't just a trigger, it was an actual breach in NC. Accidental, yes. Properly handled, yes. But a breach nonetheless. It is vital to prevent this from happening again, because there is no way to R properly without complete NC in place.

There have been posters on here, even some veterans that I respect very much for their wisdom to others, who have had a blind spot in this area. NC means NC, and without it, healing will be slow and incomplete.

This is not said trying to beat up on you, but to hopefully instill within you a sense of urgency about moving. Whatever you lose by leaving at a bad time financially, is nothing compared to what you will lose if you stay.

I think the wife needs to know that you ran into him.

I am glad your BH seems to be getting over it, but you need to do that as a minimum. If this wasn't an accident there needs to be fallout on his side.

And I agree, move..

Just last night I was telling another person on this site to hold onto hope and an hour later I am feeling extremely hopeless!

What do you do when your H tells you that he will never love you the way he did before? That he refuses to let himself be hurt by you so he has decided to pull away every time he feels himself getting close. That he has put up a wall to protect himself and is not planning on tearing it down.

Just when I thought things were on the right path for my marriage my husband crushed me last night and I once again feel like I am back square one and don't know how to move any further.

Again, short and sweet recap - I had a PA our first year of marriage and another one 13 years later. My H had an RA to get back at me (that he still does not see in the same light as my
A and feels that I should not have issues with it). We were separated for a little over a month and he moved back in in February.


I have never been able to completely trust my H. I know Dr.H says that you should never completely trust your spouse but my H has told little white lies throughout our entire marriage. He says now that he did it because it gave him a little bit of satisfaction seeing me squirm after my first A (a year into our marriage). He always justifies it though by saying that in the 16 years that we have been married, he never cheated on me and he never would have if I would not have done it to him, twice.


What he refuses to realize however is that it really damaged me. Add my A's and his A onto that and you are dealing with some major trust issues on both sides.

Don't get me wrong in any way, I know that what I did was far worse and did just as much damage. I am not throwing myself a pity party. I am so done with that!!! I have completely changed who I am, how I feel about myself, and my goals for my family and my marriage.

For the first time in my life I see how amazing my marriage can be. I see how MB is such a blessing to any marriage and what an awesome marriage you can have if you follow Dr. H's guidelines. My H seems to jump on board but then when things start to go good, he jumps back off and wants to hold onto the resentment. His hang up is that he had no clue and it caught him by surprise and he is worried that I am going to surprise him again. That is why he is not giving me his all and says that he never will.

It is just so hard when my H seems like he is on board and then throws me a curve ball like he did last night. It started with him getting mad at me for checking the phone record and calling a number that I did not recognize.

I told him that while I am trying to trust him again that it is hard for me not to snoop a little and that he was more than welcome to snoop on me anytime (I encouraged it).

The irony in everything is that I, the one who has had two A's am the non trusting one, and he has blindly trusted me. Even now he refuses to snoop or check up on me. Instead he has just decided to not give me his all...and this scares me.


I'm not sure exactly what I need or am asking for here. You are my sounding board and have not led me astray so I trust everyone's thoughts and opinions.

What have you done to restore his trust in you?

How long ago was your 2nd PA and his RA?

Sometimes it's better to stay on one thread or at least put key dates/info in the tag line.

This must have hurt a lot, XVY. Sadly, your husband appears to be on a path that an FBH of another poster here has been following for over two years.

Some learned mind could give you possibilities for why he is taking that position toward the possibility of a better tomorrow. In all candor, the "reason" is less important right now than your reaction. It should be.......nothing.

Don't stop what you're doing. Don't engage him in "my offense/your offense" debates. Don't give his "no chance" pronouncements undue thought.

You are learning/following MB practices to make XVY the best XVY she can be. If Mr. XVY wants to enjoy the benefits of your progress and improvements, he will be a lucky man. If not.....

You can only do what you can do. Making a (admittedly difficult) decision for him is NOT in your power. You can sell, you cannot consign.

Keep working the program.

That is how he feels NOW. It will take a long time for that wall to come down, so just keep trying. He is just telling you how he feels NOW and that is the truth. But if you keep it up, his feelings will change after you demonstrate to him over time that you can be trusted. Are you so transparent now that it would be virtually impossible for you to carry on an affair? Are you a wide open book?

It will take about a year and a half for that to stop. It is not going to go away overnight!

Thanks NG! I believe I know who the FBH you are referring to and that is what scares me. The funny thing is, that he still shows me affection and care until I do something that upsets him. Then he turns cold and says these things that really break me down.

I do admit that I am a sucker for the "your offense, my offense" argument and it gets us nowhere every time.

I will keep working the program because I have never been so sure of anything in my life. I will not give up unless he does and then I will pick back up and keep myself going.

Thank you again for your thoughts!!

ML,

I am but he seems non responsive to it. I offer him my phone, I tell him what I am doing at all times. I take my children with me almost everywhere I go or my H and I go together. I do not stay after school unless I have to. My emails are all open to him. My phone is unlocked. He has access to our cell phone account so he can check it at anytime.

His theory however is that I was so secretive the first time and he had no clue that he feels if I really wanted to have another one, I would no matter what.

As long as you are being transparent, it will be fine because you are demonstrating a willingness to have him investigate. It is secrecy that is a red flag. And if he is shrewd, you won't know how he snoops. My H has no idea how or what I check and to this day, does not know how I found out about his affair.

Gonna steal NG's abbreviation here, XVY, and make one single suggestion;

Stop using his RA as a reason for you to NOT do the things that YOU need to do to put the "F" in FWW.

You lead the way, and then it's up to him to follow.

HHH,

That is great advice. I do find myself upset over his lack of concern for my feelings over his RA. I need to take the focus off of this and keep working on me and my own A that started this entire thing.

I can't wait for the day that I FEEL FOREVER comfortable putting the F in my WW title.

Be the example, be the light.

Though the letter I steal this line from is Dr. H writing to a BH about his WW, I will repeat it to you; "Do not judge him."

Having a RA is never the answer, he was wrong. He acted out of fear and anger.

Show him the way to forgiveness through action, and maybe... maybe he will seek the forgiveness you offer.

Fifteen,

Me and my H we both had affairs. Me recovering from his and him from mine are different processes when it comes to the time and feelings. We talk about it differently, we feel about it differently. It has been helpful to acknowledge these feelings to BE and stay different, since I cannot make him feel like I feel and vice versa. In the early stages of recovery, I somehow thought that we feel the same way and this caused a lot of argument and sometimes this "you did it, too" showed up. I was very good in that, btw.

FWIW, my H was and still is very reluctant (it might be a ploy, I don't know) to snoop after me. I am completely transparent though, but it is how it is. I have encouraged him to snoop his [censored] off, but people choose their own way themselves.

Thanks Mrs. Recon
This information really helps and I do find myself saying "you did it too" a lot more than I should. I also think that a lot of my snooping is a result of my own guilt for my actions. I guess I feel guilty snooping on him when he doesn't seem to be snooping on me. I know it sounds silly but is how I feel.

Yesterday a wrote my husband a letter before I left for work. I was not ever sure if he would read it.

Last night when I was putting Laundry away, I found it in is drawer in his memory box where he keeps all of the notes and letters that I have given to him over the years.

This made me cry and filled me with LB's. It was what I needed to keep going last night (hard day).

BABY STEPS ON THE MARATHON OF MY LIFE!!!

Good! You keep right on modeling your side of a good M. Show him what R looks like.

15, my new favorite Dr. Harley newsletter.... a MUST READ !

LINK to Dr H newsletter

When things seem 'complicated' and you are not sure what to do .... return to the basics.

Polity of Joint Agreement
and
Policy of Radical Honesty

Time, plus those policies, will change your life.

Thanks, Pep!

I am bumping my thread up for Lost in Love 2. I see a lot of similarities between the two of us and think she should read my thread.

What I find most ironic about my current situation is that although I had the first affair and got this whole mess started, I feel unsafe in my marriage. I have been so transparent and want to continue to be transparent but my H still wants to hold onto his privacy and this makes me feel unsafe. In addition he feels that his walls and boundries do not have to be as high as mine....this really bothers me.

Marriage builders has made me realize that the two things I want most in my marriage; complete honesty and joint agreement on everything are two things that my H really struggles to give me and even before my A, he struggled with these things. He really does what he wants when he wants and I feel like he does not respect my thoughts on this.

I feel like we take two steps forward and then he pushes us back. I know and want to do MB 100% but he wants to half azz it and even makes fun of me sometimes with how dedicated I am to the program.

It is like for the first time I have opened my eyes and can see just how great our marriage can be but my H's eyes are still foggy. Not affair foggy but just that he does not want to give up the marriage we had and does not realize how deeply unsafe and miserable our previous lifestyle really was.

It is just so very hard now trying to be honest with him and get him to see this because of my A. I am hoping with time that he does begin to see but I am very scared that his resentment and bitterness with overwhelm him and he will never let me back in.

No matter what I am sticking with the program. Not really looking for advice, I just needed to vent a little bit. Any thoughts or advice however is always gladly accepted.

Some of that is A-fog, too. He wants to keep believing that what you did was worse, and that as a result you're the only one who has to change, because that makes it more comfortable for him to have cheated, too. As long as what you did was worse, then he doesn't have to feel so bad for doing what he did.

But it wasn't worse - they were both terrible.

Till he's ready to own his A, you can expect similar behavior. Due to your own A, this isn't a cut and dried situation where you do X days of Plan A then go go Plan B. You may end up in Plan B eventually, but only after a lengthy demonstration of what your half of a good M looks like.

Because you have to run a marathon, pace yourself more carefully than most Plan A'ers would need to. Nurture yourself, and give your Taker as much as you can so it doesn't run too far amok. WH is making progress, and so are you!

Thanks Neak! You don't know how much I needed that.

My H lost his job today He is an insurance salesman and was told in January that he had to get his sales up or else.... He told me this much in January and I told him that I would do anything to help him reach his sales goals.

He also told me that if he lost his job, he would probably have to leave me because his resentment towards me would be too great for him to stay.

He said all of this in January and since I have offered to work with him, for him. Make calls,flyers, and do whatever it takes
to help get him back on his feet. He let me do a few things but not a lot.

Now that he lost his job I am terrified that he is going to leave. I don't know what to do to help him. Yes, I do take responsibility for the first month or two after the affair but the past few months he has spent a lot of time "playing" rather than working. I guess I just don't know how much of the blame I should put on my plate.

In addition how do I help him through this? I feel like this is going to bring us back to square one....again

Even if he leaves now, it's not about losing the job. It's just his choice.

This is a great stress on the whole family. Still, don't let it distract you from your goal. You do what you're supposed to, each and every day, no matter what BH does or doesn't.

You're going to get through this.

Are you okay fifteenyears?

XVY - what goes on, friend?

Thought about you and your husband today. How are you both holding up?

Mrs. Bricks,

Thank you for thinking of me. I frequently think about you and Mr. Bricks, especially since our situations are very similar.

Still on the same roller coaster ride. My H lost his current job last week so he had to let go the 26 year old that he hired to help him. I feel very relieved by this for a number of reasons.

At no time did he do anything to make me not trust him, but I just know how easily boundaries can be crossed when you are working with someone of the opposite sex.

He has also been very happy since he lost his job. I know that sounds strange but his job was very high stress for him even before all the drama a caused. He has actually be offered another job in the company that entails a lot less stress and hours.

I do wish that he was as involved as I am with MB and MB practices as I am right now but I have to remember to take baby steps and continue to work on myself and the marriage that I want.

The honestly in our marriage still needs work but has greatly improved. I am more honest with my emotions and how my H affects me. My H is more open and honest about what he is doing as well.

How are things with you and Mr. Bricks? I have thought about counseling with Steve Harley but I did not think my H would agree.

Would he be up for you counseling with steve by yourself? Steve's pretty good at getting people on the phone. (aka- my H wanted nothing to do with talking to steve, and now somehow steve's got him making EN checklists....) Worth a shot!

Thanks DoroM, I might give it a try. He listens to me when I talk about MB and has even gotten on the site a few times. He knows about all of the concepts as well. He is just getting his feet wet though instead of diving in. I want him to be in the water with me vs. on the sideline.

Why not just approach your husband about having just one session with Steve? Just one. Don't make it sound like a firm commitment to anything, just a little favor, or something of the sort. And if he doesn't like what he hears, you won't ask him to do it again. Just one little chat. I don't think he would think that's too much to ask.

I've never talked to Steve (or Jennifer) myself, but from what I've heard, if you can get your husband to talk to him just once, you won't have to worry about bugging him to do it again. Steve will take it from there.

You are very welcome and I appreciate the kind thoughts!

So sorry to hear about your husband's job especially with the current economy but good to hear that he's been offered another position. I hope it all work out for both of you.

I understand about not having on the MB program together, it must be really tough on your part but please continue to do so and keep encouraging him, miracles still exists with some extra hard work.

BRICKS and I schedule our UA time together every week and we make sure to spend those time together. The hardest part is finding an exercise that benefits both of us without sacrificing anything for the other but that is getting better. We are also doing good at fulfilling our ENs and more mindful to not love bust each other. POJA is something we abide daily. Such an important tool to successfully negotiate about anything.

I am humbled that BRICKS asked me to stay and work on our marriage using the MB principles. I wish I found this site before I had an affair, but was lucky enough to be here still.

We counseled with SH for almost 3 months and we both liked him a lot. It's been 2 weeks without SH and the first week was really scary most especially after what happened to WPG and her husband. Just the thought of both of us not being accountable to another person freaks me out so we decided to purchase the online program where we can email Dr. Harley if we have any questions by posting in the private section of this forum. So, I think you should give SH a call. The price is so worth it. If we didn't have a lot of expenses right now, we would still continue counseling with him but hopefully this online program will help us continue what we are already doing.

I wish you both of you peace and love. Take care.

Take

Today was the 6 month anniversary of D day. My H and I planned a day together filled with UA time. It was also however a time we were going to talk about our marriage and see where we are going and where we want to go.

All was going really well until something sparked my H and he once again brought up how he could not understand how I could be so sneaky and tricky and that he was still having a hard time getting over my deception.

I tried to assure him and told him the EPs I had set in place that I have followed to a tee. I also told him that I have been and forever will be transparent.

His response was cruel and hurtful. He said that he does nor think that he can truly ever love me again. I told him that I do not want a loveless marriage. The thing is that I know in my heart that he still loves me. We have had such a wonderful few weeks full of time together, conversation, time with our kids, etc... For the first time in my marriage I have felt secure...then he drops this bomb on me. I want an MB marriage. I want to be equal and respected. I want my H to love me. Am I asking to much this early after my A? It just makes me feel so hopeless when my H says that he will never love me again. Is this just his protection? Is it worth even trying anymore?

Tough questions, XVY, and tough answers to them!

A BS's ultimate acceptance of a new, MB-based start to a damaged marriage is not a right to be expected by the WS. We'd like to think that we (with the initiation of Harley's practices) have the formula to give a recovering couple the best shot. But given the vagaries of self-respect, ego, the depth of affection before the A, previous marital issues, and the incalculable balance between vengeance and forgiveness in the BS, there is no surety in the result.

I'm certain by now you've read WPG's thread, to what appears to be its unfavorable conclusion. Is there anything, A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G, that she could have done more to bring her BH to understand the depth of her commitment to him?

That said, you can only keep working your side of the street. Be consistent in your approach, be as understanding as necessary toward his "outbreaks", and keep working the major elements of the plan - UA time, O&H, POJA, no LBs, maximum possible EN satisfaction.

Remember, every day that you're together is another day on your side of his theoretical scale.

ETA:
His response was cruel and hurtful. Wrong mind-set, friend.

His response was honest and pain-filled. Do you see the difference?

Agree with NG...



Also...many a betrayed spouse here had to deal with a freshly former wayward spouse in withdrawal who didn't think they could ever love them again. Irony aside....if "we" can do it so can you. Just endure and distract. Perhaps the serious conversation wasn't a good idea. Consider how good it might have been if you'd just cancelled it and went out for a good time instead. Forced serious conversation in early recovery is rarely productive....too easy for resentments to come to the surface.

Recovery is a roller coaster.

Progress is made as you realize the lows aren't nearly as bad nor occurring as often. Today was a bad day. Get up and fight for your marriage again tomorrow.

Mr. Wondering

fifteenyears. I had a really hard time with that one myself. I put my FWH through the ringer forward and backwards yet he held on. One time after I apologized, he told me that I could put him through the ringer anytime I wanted. It made me love him even more.


Just keep working on your side of the street. 6 months is early days.


Don't turn it around on him fifteen years. You were cruel and hurtful also...in his mind he is thinking that at least he is straight forward and not deceiving you.

Don't give up fifteen years. Keep working the MB plan. Giving up will just show your BH that he was right not to believe in you again.

NG,

Your response is honest and painfilling because of the fact that it is so true yet hurts so bad. How do I respond when my H says he will never love me but his body language for the part few weeks tells a different story?

6 months is right about the time when a BS starts to come out of shell shock and feel anger. this is a part of the grief process, and gives you an opportunity to offer JC. you should not feel put out about it; you should be thrilled that he is still talking (and still w/you)! keep up the good work, and post here when you're feeling low. this will likely go on for awhile as your BH works through his grief. as long as you keep filling his LB, you will have a chance to get there in the end. you've already shown him the worst you can do; now is time to show him your best. is your BH posting here?

Thank you Letty, I needed that. No he does not post here

you're welcome ;-)

pity he isn't posting here to air his thoughts and concerns. plenty (sadly) of BHs to help out. good on you for making things right.

it's early days yet and you still have a lot of work ahead of you; however, you are still together and that is step one! the trick is being able to soak up his pain as he works through this. i know you know you've hurt him so badly you're lucky your marriage didn't implode. it really does take about 2 years for things to come right when the WS is doing everything they can, so just keep that in mind. when the WS *isn't* doing everything they can, it never recovers :O(

have you read doro's thread? you could be of help to one another. she is also coping with a BH who is voicing concerns about the longevity of their M, but he is also still with her and working with SH here at MB.

What is the name of her thread? I feel like I have read some of it but not all.

Here it is DoroM's Thread: Don't know if I should divorce after own infidelity

How do I respond when my H says he will never love me...

An ANSWER I cannot supply, because I don't have intimate knowledge of the dynamics of your intimate relationship.

A MENU I can propose

"Maybe not, but I love you, and let's see if that can get us restarted."

"I understand your hurt and distrust. Let me prove to you that I can be the wife you want and need again."

"I hope the 'never' is wrong. Give me a chance to work on that, please."

"You loved me once. I will be more of what you deserve in a wife in the future."

"Please don't say 'never'. I, on the other hand, will 'never' stop trying to make amends for the past."

These are not NG-isms. They are all verbatim from love-notes from my bride. You might try slipping similar notes in places where only your husband will find them, unexpectedly.

And the last, best one: "However much you hate the things I did, I detest them so much more because I did them to you."

(Have I mentioned before how much I love that woman?)

NG,

Thank you for all of those wise words from your wife but I think it might be too late. My H decided to leave last night and stayed out all night. We met up this morning and he told me that he was done. That he could not and would not let me into his heart again.

I asked him about the past four months at home and how I saw glimpses of the love and care that he once had for me. He cried, but remained cold and almost cruel. I begged him to give us more time that he had just begun to heal and I had barely had a chance to prove to him that I could and would be the most wonderful wife.

He did not want to hear it. He has given up and thrown in the towel and there is not a lot I can do.

What I don't understand is that he is either one of the best actors in the world and needs to get on a plane to Hollywood, or he has actually started to care and love me again and that is scaring him. Just last week he held me and told me how much he needed me. This is why I am so confused. He says he is numb, yet he has been so affectionate and loving toward me in the past few weeks.

He told me today that he has just been sticking around because of the kids but I am just not buying it.

I am sorry but I am not giving up even if he has. I can't because I know that he still loves me deep down somewhere. I will not give up until he tells me to.

I know this is an extremely selfish thought right now and I know it will pass but I honestly feel like crawling into a hole and dying right now. I know that I had the A and maybe I deserve this but this is the second time my H has pretended like everything was great only to punch me in the stomach and run away.

I know that he is hurting but he came back into our marriage only three months ago and is already ready to call it quits? He already played this game and left to have his own A, nearly destroying our children and now he is going to do it again.

I'm sorry, maybe I don't have a right to be but I am ANGRY!!!

Keep it to yourself...

infidelity breeds a whole lot of unfairness all around...

Your anger is justified and normal but expressing it to him won't likely help your situation. Anger isn't part of YOUR plan.


You can only control you.

Mr. W

my heart goes out to you 15y. there are sooo many of us BH's who would give our right arms to be in your H's place. ironic how it always seems that way. wherever there is a remorseful W there is usually an H w/ a hardened heart, witness WPG. stand your ground. do not be fooled just yet. it may be a ploy by your H to push you away on Mother's Day no less bc he feels hurt. Mother's Day is a funny thing. your H will always love you 15y. you are the mother of his children. you can never take that away. dont think for one second he has not thought long and hard on that. as you gaze upon your H and your family today, take heart.

it is indeed a struggle. it is hellacious. it is sad. it is long. but love overcomes all. be still. let go, let God.

Happy Mother's Day 15y! take solace that regardless of what your H has said to you today, you are still a family this day. you are still married to him. live in this moment.

hey Mr. W, Happy Mother's Day to the missus.

I'm so sorry to hear that the has left, fifteen.

I must ask: how do you know that his so-called "revenge affair" is over? What were the circumstances of that ? Who was she? etc.

Perhaps he's being really mean and passive aggressive going on like this on mother's day. Like it's a test or something to see how much he can hurt you to see if you really mean what you've been saying all along (that you're not giving up trying). He may even be doing this subconsciously.

Listen...recovery necessitates a whole lot of swallowing of your taker. As a [former] wayward on average you've likely got a very high/active taker. Putting yours in storage is likely a lot harder for you but it remains necessary. Do what you set out to do...stick to your plan and let the chips fall where they may. No expectations. You are a changed person. A repentant person. You'll be ok either way.

You will make it.


Mr. W

I always think the same thing when a spouse leaves suddenly for space. I hope you are snooping on him because there's no way to recover a marriage when a 3rd person is intruding.

Mr. W

Thank you Mr. W I needed that. I feel the same way like this is some kind of cruel test to see how much I truly love him. I really think he started to let me in and it is scaring the Hell out of him because he does not want to love or trust me again.

I just wish he would give us more time to break down his stubborn wall. I even suggested talking with SH.

The good news is, I have one more week with him to try to convince him that we are worth the fight. Our kids have a week left of school and we both agreed to "act normal" for another week for them. Below is the email that I sent him with a little help from NG


I know that you have made your final decision to give up and shut down, but I will not give up without a fight.

You don't love me, well that is fine because I still love you and want to continue to fight for us even though you don't.

You think I don't understand your hurt and distrust? That I think it will just go away? Hell no! I know it will not go away. But you have barely given me a chance to show you that I can be the wife you want and need again...forever.

You loved me once but you loved the old me. The new me is going to be even better than the one you loved before...new and improved model of Liz.

Please don't say "never" I am the only one allowed to say "never" as in I will "never" stop trying to make amends for the past.

However much you hate the things I did, I hate them even more because I did them to you.

I messed up our past but I will not sit back and allow my mistakes to mess up our future.

Do you really think ending us will take away the pain?

Thank you!!

That is a good questions and don't think it hasn't crossed my mind. This feels a lot like the first time he left when he was in a foggy RA. The difference this time is that he has been very transparent with me since he has been back at home. I have access to his phone at any time, I get on our phone records often and I have his email address on my phone.

The really scary thing is that one time he did tell me that if someone wants to have an affair and hide it, it is easy. All they have to do is get another phone and another email address. Those words always sit in my thoughts.

I don't think however that this is an A. I actually started this by putting pressure on my H yesterday. I think I pushed him into this. When he told me yesterday that he did not think that he could ever love me again, instead of taking it I got upset. I basically told him that he needed to figure it out and that if he felt that he could not ever love me again, then that is not the marriage that I wanted. I did not however mean that he had to decide the next day. Since he got mad and left last night we never got to finish our clear up this conversation.

BAM, that leads to today and his decision that he is going to leave and that he actually made this choice a long time ago but I sparked it yesterday. Something is just not right and I am not buying it. I know what indifferent is, and although he says that he is there, there is no way that he could be acting on some of the things he has said and done since he has been back.

I will not give up without a fight!!! Wish me luck this week!

You didn't answer these questions, fifteen.

Sorry SC,

He sent her a NC letter back in January. The circumstances of the A were that he needed to fill is ego and get revenge on me for hurting him so bad. It lasted from the middle of December until the middle of January. I found out about it through phone contact and confronted him. He immediately broke it off with her, sent the letter with my approval and we began working on rebuilding our marriage.

He moved back in the middle of February and I have been keeping close taps on him ever since. The affair was exposed to our families, children, and some friends.

WHO WAS SHE, fifteen?

I'm trying to find out whether she was a colleague, a friend or someone who lives in your neighbourhood. I'm trying to find out how hard it would be for him to have been seeing her all this time if he wanted to.

I should have just asked that, I suppose!

He met her at a bar. She does not live near by and there are no other connections friend wise to tie her to us.

Sugar,

I did ask my H today if there was someone else. Of course, he said no and asked me why I always assume that another person is responsible for the way that he feels. He said that there isn't anyone else and there hasn't been since he broke it off with her.

He also said that he has never loved anyone but me. I believe him when he says this.

In his fragile mind he does not believe that his A was wrong and this has plagued us for the past three months. I can't help however to feel like the way he is acting is the same as he did when he was an an A a few months ago.

His behavior just does not make sense. Yesterday we were out to dinner having a great time, I bring up our recovery, he tells me how he feels, it upsets me and I ask for more = Today he wants to call it quits. Something is just not adding up in my mind.

I will not give up without a fight!!! Wish me luck this week!

We'll be here in your corner during your fight with words, prayers and advice if requested. Do NOT fight fair, XVY. I remind you that your children's well-being is as much on the line as your own.

Thanks NG and thank your wife for her wise words and wish her a happy moms day.

Sorry to keep venting here but I have a few other thoughts that have been haunting me all day. The past few weeks my h has really been stepping up to both husband and parent duties. We done a number of things together as a family and have really enjoyed this time together. This is something that rarely happened before. This once again makes me question why now, today he decided to call it quits. Do I have the right to ask him this?

Since we are keeping this quiet from our children this week I think I am going to Plan A to the extreme!!! I have already been plan A ing him for the past few months but I am not going to let his decision today get me down or change the way that I am treating him. In fact I am going to go above and beyond.

Does this sound like a good idea?

wow, you guys have been busy this morning. it's 7am here and i'm off to work, but...

there was an RA??

i will catch up when i get home! oh dear...

Letty,

You make me laugh. The RA was in January and yes it does add s
Drama to the situation. It is quite amazing how much can happen in 24 hours. Yesterday at this time my H and I were eating sausage and sipping wine at our favorite winery....so many wonderful memories

I don't think a WS can ever completely understand what it is like for a BS. One minute you love them and would do anything to keep your family together, the next minute you are so enraged you wish they would die a terrible death for everything they've done to you and your children. Everything triggers pain - angry words, beautiful memories, a gentle touch - it all triggers memories of betrayal and what you have done to them. They want so badly to have their family back, their marriage back - but you have permanently altered it, defiled it. It's going to take work to clean up that mess. It is doable. I believe almost all of us BS's in our hearts want nothing more than to build a beautiful marriage with our WS's.

I can say with deep remorse that I blew it when my WH started to turn his heart toward me again, after months of praying and trying to get to that point. When he finally began to come toward me again, it was like it was finally safe for all the anger to boil up that I had been repressing in order to do what I had to do to try to save the marriage. And then I was terrified. What if it wasn't real? What if he didn't mean it? What if I opened my heart to him just so he could shatter it again? I hardened myself to protect myself. It was sheer terror that I let take over me, that caused me to distance myself a little when he finally turned toward me. I wanted him to keep coming, to prove that he wasn't taking off again. I needed that. And I let some anger come through because I needed desperately to see some real understanding and remorse from him.

I would give anything to have him be where you are right now, but I can also see your BH point of view. He's an emotional wreck. And if he had an A too, in retaliation, that is grossly irresponsible and wrong. But you still have to own that you started all this.

I do not know him, or you, but I can tell you what would have helped me (and even my kids) in this situation. I needed to see that my WH meant it, that he was really going to change, try to make up for things, separate from OW, love me and our children, protect us all from further pain. Don't go running after him begging and pleading. Let him express his anger, let him take off, you can't control his poor choices in reaction to yours. But just quietly continue to do everything you can to SHOW him that you love him, that you are a changed woman, that you are sorry, that you will be a great wife and mom, that you would never do something so horrible again. My husband and I were in recovery for a few months, and I saw this from him. I began to trust him again. I have never felt so in love with him or so close to him as I did then. But when we hit a rough spot, I got scared and closed off a little. He could have turned that around in a couple of days of just demonstrating love. But he let it scare him too, and left. Biggest mistake of both our lives. We are in hell now, OW is back with a vengeance. Awful. He started to turn toward me again a few months ago, after being separated for over a year (situation I described above), but I was even more scared this time, and he didn't do what it took to convince me.

Be the wife you keep promising him that you can be, and remain that person regardless of what he does or does not do. He has a whole lot of anger and grief to work through - he's afraid, but when he sees that he can trust you to remain constant in your love and your resolve, even through some ups and downs from him, I think you will begin to see him open his heart, trust you, and be the husband you need as well. I'm no expert, but that's my 2 cents from a BS point of view.

Most likely something triggered him, whether direct contact or indirect.

If he was only a BS, or only a WS, it would be much easier to predict and understand his behavior and thought processes. Because he is both, it's not usually possible to tell which one he is at any given moment.

That's why you don't stress it, even when it's stressful. You stick to fixing you, and keep doing that until/unless it becomes time to Plan B. (It's not yet.)

RS,
Those two cents were worth more than a million bucks to me. I know that no matter how hard I try I will never completely understand my betrayal the way he does. Even though he had his own RA it is just not the same. No matter what I am planning to continue to be the best wife and mother I can be. I owe that to everyone including myself.

Be careful he's not perceiving it as you quite possibly pouring it on in front of the kids such that you are guilting him into staying or worse...making him out to be the bad guy if and when he decides to separate/divorce.

Mr. W

That was and is not my intention but I see your point. I think I am just going to act the same way I have been. I will not kill him with kindness but I will not mope, cry, and beg for him to stay behind closed doors. I am well aware it has to be his decision. I am also aware that if he can't forgive me, then our marriage does not have a shot. Right now, I fear that he has convinced himself of this.

Once a person has become indifferent, is there any turning back?

Yes, and if you begin to see anger that's actually a good sign. Anger is a step closer than indifference.

fifteen. Maybe it is just a Mothers Day trigger. I had the same problem myself on Fathers Day...especially when I had to look at all those sappy cards. I would work myself into a rage (before I found MB). I ruined two Fathers Day before I got a grip (and a couple of B-Days also.)

I would love to see him get on board with MB. That is when I was able to work through my anger and find peace.

Stick with it. It is very early days for you.

PF,
I have been trying so hard to get him on here for support. That is and has always been on of his biggest problems, keeping everything in. Sometimes he reads the forum but he will not post.

Will he do coaching with Steve Harley?

I brought that up today and he did not really respond one way or another to it.

Okay, it's Sunday night. What are your plans for promoting your plan on Monday?

I'm glad if it helped a little. Keep going! Don't give up! Your marriage and family are worth it:)

Have you read SAA? His love bank is totally in the red. You've got to fill it back up, slowly but surely. It's not hopeless.

Dr. Harley says the only way to recover from an affair is through the just compensation of building a great marriage. He can't just forgive you right off the bat. Eventually he has to get back on board, but it sounds like he is off and on. You can Plan A by yourself. Don't get discouraged, or he will too. Easier said than done, of course, but try to love him from a place of strength, because you choose to love, not from a place of weakness where you need something from him.

My heart goes out to you trying to turn this around. It says a lot that you are taking responsibility for your own actions - your mistakes, and your behavior now. Stay strong:)

NG,

It is so weird because last night we played tennis as a family and my H and I watched one of our favorite shows together. He was however a little cold.

My biggest plan is not to be a basketcase. Last time he said he was leaving I cried and moped around for days. I will not do that and will continue to shower him with love. The past three months he had been here I have done nothing but cater to him and my children to make them happy. He had even commented on how wonderful I have been.

I'm not really sure what else to do other than show him what he will be leaving behind if he decides to give up on us this early in the game.

..show him what he will be leaving behind if he decides to give up on us.

Perfect, my friend. Look good, cook(?) well, be attentive and affectionate, hide more love-notes,....

He may not get the message while he's home, you understand. You want him to notice the difference if he does move out, anyway.

Its funny that you mentioned the love notes. Just today I put one by the coffee pot (we both love our morning coffee).

Him leaving makes me feel ill. Not necessarily for myself but for my children. I am not sure if they can mentally handle him leaving again. I however promised myself that I would not use that at leverage to keep him here. He has to decide that on his own and I feel that he will resent me even more if I do that.

I have come to realize that I have done every last possible thing that I can to help my H and myself. I am truly a changed person and no matter what the end result is I can take that will me and continue.

It just makes me so sad. Because I really truly feel that if my H gives up on us, he will one day regret it. His heart is so hard right now and filled with anger and resentment. I wish I could find a way for him to see that letting go will make him feel so much better.

I know, I can only help myself and his choices are his, but is is going to break my heart if he lets these feelings lead him rather than our love.

Adultery, the 'gift' that keeps on breaking hearts.

Anger & resentment are both high energy requirement emotions.
It's exhausting to maintain for a long period of time.
Fear of having his heart broken, again, is his fear.

15, you know I'm in the corner supporting your M recovery.
Plan A, then Plan B sista'.
You know the drill.
Your 'calling' is now to elevate yourself above your raw emotions/fears, and to be the Plan A rock star .... on a time limited basis. Then, if necessary, you must challenge yourself even further to Plan B like the dark side of the moon.

You do have your limits as well.
I have no idea what those limits are.
You will make that discovery.

Sorry for your pain.

Thanks Pepper! You have been a wonderful support and inspiration. I am going to plan A my butt off this week and just let him decide what he wants to do without saying anything one way or another.

Plan A is a good call.


Plan B?


Write the radio show. Explain your situation, ask if Plan B would be appropriate.


Your H screwed up with his RA... at the same time, slapping a Plan B on a betrayed spouse who is struggling to make a decision to recover is a lot like using a steel toe boot to kick someone in the teeth in the hopes to motivate them to move.... when they are already buried up to their neck in the sand.


If your marriage is not better than it ever was after two years of recovery (in other words; using PoJA, PoRH, following UA, meeting EN's, LB's, making respectful complaints, fully transparent, adherent to EP's) you should divorce.

I agree with this and told my H that we needed more time. He is so back and forth but yesterday he seemed so cold and dead set on leaving.

Is plan B completely disconnecting from my H? I actually already told him that if he decides to leave that this is the way it is going to have to be.

I know he is hurt but this is the second time he has sucker punched me and caught me off guard with an "Im leaving" when I thought all was good. The first time it was to carry out is RA which to this day he says is not the reason that he was done with us and that is why he started his A.

[b][color:#FF0000]I am thinking if HE makes the choice to leave a plan B might be necessary for both of us. For me to stay sane and for him to truly see if he is better off with[/b]out me.[/color]

I'm sorry the Message above is ai confusing. I was fringe to test out the color.

I just asked H if he was coming home for dinner that I was making stuffed chicken. His response was "going to watch the game at T's(male friends house), so no"

It's like he is trying to hurt me and push me away. I don't even know how to respond to that. I don't want to be too pushy or needy but I can't be a total doormat either. I'm feeling so hopeless

15Y,

Dumb question, have you combed through the BH threads here to see what they wanted from their WWs?

Perhaps there is something he never got from you?

Perhaps the fact that he found his affair unsatisfying was too much to bear.

God Bless
Gamma

Not a dumb question at all Gamma. I have not only combed through, I have an MB journal of WW and BS posts that have inspired me to change and shown me how I can help my spouse.

I have said I am sorry with words and actions. I have asked him what I can do for him. Honestly Gamma, from my intense research on here many have said that some people just can't let go of the pain. That is where my H is right now.

He also keeps everything in instead of letting it out. Very bad communication skills which makes it extremely hard to know how he is feeling.

Just want to repost for emphasis.

And I say this coming somewhat from your H's position, having been burned again years after the first affair, except that your sitch is more complicated due to his (surely) fog from his own RA.

I would NOT give my STBX the chance that your H is giving you to Plan A him...even if he did everything under the sun to be given that chance... I am not trying to discourage you but to give you some perspective.

It sounds like you are trying your best...keep it up!

SQ,
That means a lot to me. Especially coming from someone who is in my Hs position and has been hurt in the same way. You definitely put it into perspective and remind me that all of the pain and sorrow I am feeling right now, stems from my own selfish actions.

Thank you for the perspective but also the encouragement.

15Y,

He also keeps everything in instead of letting it out...hard to know how he is feeling.

That would have described me for 20 years after my Ws affair early in my marriage with OM2 but before I found MB. When I found MB my W was in an EA with OM4.

The EA with OM4 by itself was bad, but given that I never recovered from OM2 it made me feel like my entire marriage was tainted, mentally my W never came completely back from OM2.

I suspect your BH feels that your OM2 was just a continuation of OM1, and that while you may have been loyal physically between those two episodes, mentally you were still wayward.

God Bless
Gamma

Are you and your wife still together ?
I can see where my BH with feel that way. in fact, his parents tried to convince him that I have been cheating our entire marriage. In all actuality, the 13 years in between I was the perfect trustworthy wife.

The most ironic part of the whole situationis my H put himself more tempting situation than I did and often told me white lies about what he was doing. So while he completely trusted me, I have never trusted him.

this is 1 of the things he can't get over, the fact that he trusted me with all his heart and I betrayed him.

My H just came home early from his friends house, before the baseball game even ended....this never happens. Said he wanted to watch our show.

Two thoughts went through my mind
1. He wanted to spend time with me
2. He wants to watch the final episodes before he moves out and no longer has access to them.

I'm going to go with one and go spend some quality time with him. Wish me luck

Sorry, I am a little pathetic right now posting so much but it is good therapy and I need to do it.

Last night went well. My H is still being cold in the area of affection but we are having good general conversation.

He did cuddle with me last night in bed while he was sleeping. It almost felt however that when he would wake up and realize this, he would turn away. He did this several times last night...either way it felt good.

Today I left him a poem on top of the chicken dinner I made him last night.

I will fight until the bitter end!!!!

Can you "all accidentally" snuggle with him?

As long as we're composing poetry, perhaps this one will hearten your outlook:

There was a lady named fifteenyears,
Who had to struggle with doubts and fear.
Her efforts would vary,
Her BH was wary,
But they reconciled to all our cheers!

NG is a poet, I didnt know it.

Hang in there 15Y, my wife did and we're going to get thru this. Let mood shifts flow right off you but dont be his doormat. Eventually a lot us come realize that a stupid mistake was made. Nothing else.

Thanks,NG this,made me smile
I haven't done that in quite awhile.
I got myself into quite a jam
But I won't give up that not who I am.

Thanks for the encouragement. I have actually sent my H a number of your post for inspiration.

If I had one wish to be granted XVY, it would be that we BHs here could convey to Mr. XVY the wonderful possibilities that await him with a fully remorseful FWW.

Anyway, I'm glad my attempt at poetical(?) support was welcome.

15Y,

Are you and your wife still together ?

Yes we are, but I need the truth about OM2 and etc for our longer term survival.

For the time I've given up asking my W what happened and am tracking down OM2.

I hope that the guilt from not telling me will eventually build up to the point that my W spills. The little comments she makes every so often make me believe this will happen.

W did say that she didn't want to tell the sexual details, and that it was so long ago and of course her saying that has kept me in the game.

Did your H ever confront or retaliate against these OM?

God Bless
Gamma

Okay, XVY, it's Wednesday. What are your plans for winning your FB/WH's heart and soul today?

No, he never did. He did tell OM2 that if he ever tried to call or contact me again he would kick is azz. OM1 was a one night mistake and we never had to see his face again because I quit that job immediately and never turned back.

I just think about how stupid I was both times. I thought I learned my lesson after OM1 and truly stayed out of trouble for 13 years. I makes me so sick and ashamed that I fell back into that boat again. I see so clearly now the things that I must do to stay on the right path. I actually WANT to do them.

Before, I thought nothing of going to Happy hours with co workers that were males. We always had Christmas and End of year parties and sometimes my H would come but I was fine if he didn't. One co-worker would always text me stupid dirty jokes. This really bothered my H and at the time I was did not understand. SO NAIVE, AND STUPID!!!

My H does not seem to want to know any more details. Right after it happened he asked a lot of questions and the truth came out. He never wanted explicit details though.

It's really up to him as to what he wants to know. Some BSs want all the little details, and others just want to know if you did X or Y at all, no details. He seems to have reached his limit, so I wouldn't press more details on him--which it doesn't look like you're doing anyway.

Sorry the site was down for awhile and it has been a busy day. In addition, I think I am getting strep throat...perfect timing.


The pressure is on!!

Well, tonight is his golf night so we will not see each other until later in the evening. I am once again going to fix a yummy dinner (but I always do that). I am going to clean up the house (he loves a clean house).

I have been giving him love notes all week. I looked in his drawer where he keeps all of the letters and cards I give him and saw the poem I wrote yesterday. It made me very happy that he cares enough to keep it.

The theme for today was "I love you". I told him that I know it is hard for him to say and that my past actions have not shown how much I truly love him but I do and my future actions will prove this.

Each day I have put the letters in a different spot.

He is still acting cold and last night I woke up to a pillow between us. At first I was offended but thought about it and he often times puts a pillow in between his legs when he sleeps so I think I was being over sensitive.

He is starting to text me again to see what I am doing...this feels good.

The big plan is that I am not even going to bring up that he is leaving. If he wants to leave at the end of the week he can but I am not going to ask or bring it up.

I am going to continue the love notes and doing what I have been doing, being transparent, letting him know my every move, staying at home with my children, etc...

...being transparent...

On that topic, I hate to be...crass...but transparency is not a bad thing in evening casual wear. Coming home from golf outings, I have been known to appreciate the possibility of "playing around" after "playing a round".
I'm telling Mrs. NG!
Shut up! What are you, some kinda Boy Scout?

That sounds really nice but I was just diognosed with strep. I don't think giving my H strep is going to help my cause any

I don't think giving my H strep is going to help my cause any

On balance, you're probably right!
Get well soon, though!

15Y,

He did tell OM2 that if he ever tried to call or contact me again he would kick is azz.

That's a good sign, when I hears that a BH did nothing it's more like indifference.

OM1 was a one night mistake

Please don't ever use that minimizing language with your H, a mistake is not dotting an I on a test.

I just think about how stupid I was both times.

Again watch your language you are not stupid, you are a school teacher, to play dumb is insulting and minimizes your apologies.

I've noticed that with my Ws description of her affair with OM2 it has approached more and more her admission of her own fault. At first the tone was that it was my fault, then it was defensive, then it was about how handsome OM2 was, just a few weeks ago it was that things she did might have caused me to distrust her. Perhaps this is why I notice language so much.

My H does not seem to want to know any more details.

Not always a good sign as men tend to ruminate and explode years later.

God Bless
Gamma

Gamma,

I am sorry that it sounded like I was trying to minimize my first A. In no way was I trying to do that but after reading it did sound like I had no regard for it because it was only one night. Even though the SA took place only once there was an EA for several months. I think they are one in the same and the hurt, pain, emotions, and destruction is no different.

I really hate to use the word stupid. Maybe naive? Either way I had blinders on and made horrible choices that I am so very ashamed of.

You are right about the explosions. Again, my H is a very "keep it inside" type person. When we get into arguments however the pain that he has been keeping in comes out and it always involves the dirty little details.

NG,

On a positive note, my strep did not keep H away last night. He was very affectionate and there was a lot of "transparency" if you know what I mean. I hope he doesn't get sick but if he does it can be one more thing that I can do for him to show my love.

He was very affectionate and there was a lot of "transparency"...

Does she mean.....?
Let's hope so!

So, what's your plan for today and tomorrow?

I unfortunately will not be getting home until around 8 tonight. I am going to ask H if he wants to watch our show together and make sure that I cuddle on the couch with him.

He went on an interview last week so I am going to be sure to ask if he has heard anything.

I really want to ask him about my love letters. Although he has not said a word about them he has kept all of them. I will probably just let this go though and see if he says anything to me. Maybe subtly hint about them.

My greatest fear is that he says goodbye tomorrow or Saturday and that he is leaving. But I have mentally prepared for that and Indie had some wise words on a another post. She said if he decides to leave I have to respect that decision.

My H just text me and ask me If "I cared if he goes to watch the hockey game with his brother tonight". Why is this a big deal??? I will tell you, why. My H NEVER usually ask me if he can go do something with friends. He either tells me or just goes to do it.

This simple question filled my LB and although simple, really means a lot to me. I think I will tell him this.

Don't think about telling him, but TELL him.

Already did

15Y,

When we get into arguments however the pain that he has been keeping in comes out and it always involves the dirty little details.

Keep in mind that those "little" details are really important to men. Women seem not to notice, but to men they are huge.

After OM1 for example her orgasmic style changed, after OM2 she never again kissed me with passion, after OM3 she started orgasming during intercourse. My W has no recollection of any of this, or it is so unimportant to her that she never thinks about it, but it killed me.

I'm not encouraging you to lie about those details, quite the opposite, men need the absolute truth or their wild fantasies will drive them mad.

God Bless
Gamma

Gamma, I just read over this again and was thinking about my sexual situation with my H. I have also changed my sexual mannerisms but I have done it more for my H than any other reason. I used to be somewhat shy at times and would not relax in certain positions.

Since my A I have been much more relaxed and involved (trying to keep this G-rated) in the moment and my H. My change if heart was the fact that if I can give my body away to someone else I sure as heck better not be shy with the man who has loved my body for 15 years.

SR is my H's top EN and since I have come to realize that and cherish it I have changed and our sex has changed. I told my H this much and he seemed very pleased.

I guess what I am getting at is has your wife expressed why she has had these changes? Are you sure they dont have something to do with you?


NG,

Today my love note was constructed with songs from one of our favorite musical artist. I put the letter in the cd player of his car and an going to make a cd with all of the songs on it.

Just a quick update, H is still athome with no talk of moving out. In fact the past couple days have been really nice.

15 - so happy for all the progress.

I do not usually follow WS' threads because of the triggers, but I've been cheering for you and your H, to find peace together!

Good luck!

Thank you E!! That means so much to me coming from you. I have also followed your story and I know your BH has hurt you immensely. It takes a truly brave and strong person to cheer on someone who has hurt their family in the Same way that you and your family have been hurt.

H is still at home with no talk of moving out. In fact the past couple days have been really nice.

Now what are your plans for tomorrow, and the holiday weekend?

And to make it more of a sure thing, my friend, tell us why the past couple of days were really nice - for HIM. Actually, you don't have to tell us - what's important is that you actively identify those things that mean "happy marriage" to him, and bury him in them.

NG,

Thanks for asking and thanks for holding me accountable....actions not just words. I have been filling my Hs top needs to the max and it is making me feel better.

One thing I noticed this past week is that my H asked me about my end of school party. This is a party that involves teachers only. Spouses can come but are often times encouraged not to. My H actually asked me if I was going. 1. Showing me that be did care about me even if he says he does not. 2. That he still does not trust me...a given. This gave me the opportunity to show him action by not going or even thinking about it, and also letting him know that I will never again attend an after school function without him. Instead we spent the entire weekend together....lots of UA time.

In addition, I continue to read MB stuff and apply it to myself and my marriage. My H is still not totally on board but I find him trading the posts from my phone and asking a lot of questions.

On another posters forum today, Pepper gave some good advice on empathy to another Wayward. It was very ironic that I read this because I continue to struggle with my feelings and sometimes forget what I put him though. This forum and the wise people on it always bring me back to reality.

That's sad that the school would not encourage spouses to attend. No wonder we see so many affairs involved with teachers/professors.

Did you POJA this? Why not have him go with you and send even a bigger message to the school that you will have your BH attend and let your BH see your interactions with your coworkers?

I'm all for UA time because that's more important.

I don't join ANY work functions that doesn't allow spouses. I've been very vocal about this at work that they have changed their policy to always include spouses. Just something to think about.

Good job! My school ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS includes the spouses. It's a big red flag when a workplace doesn't want them. If the only issue is the cost, well, just don't have events as often. Maybe you can be a catalyst for change.

I see you looking at me.


Go read that same thread today.

XOXO

15Y,

I guess what I am getting at is has your wife expressed why she has had these changes? Are you sure they dont have something to do with you?

The only change my wife acknowledged is that after OM2 she never felt the same about me. I think it was part her and part me, my part was that I gained some weight at that time which reduced her attraction to me, and her part is her guilt which she has carried all these years.

I know she feels guilty because talking about it is like her touching an electric fence, and she retreats behind a brick wall after a brief statement. Oh well I hope my speaking with OM helps nudge her into talking.

God Bless
Gamma

Yeah my school is really bad about happy hours and parties that do not involve spouses. My H and I did talk about it and he says that he does not want to go to any work related party any time soon (big trigger for him).

That is fine with me because I do not hang out with this group of people anymore and not to sound high and mighty but a number of them and their behavior repulses me...funny how I never realized this before. The head of my department and his ex-wayward lover hang out all of the time. And he wonders why his wife does not like him?

I told my H that I will never ever go to another work event without his presence and if he does not want to go, then we wont go.

Pepper,

I really want to get back to that thread. I read the entire thing yesterday and really feel for both the WW and her BH. I hope they can both learn through this forum and MB.

15, I'm really happy you jumped in to help out the noobie WW.
Helping out others will deepen your own understanding of MB in action.

And it will help show new people that WWs CAN turn themselves around. There needs to be more FWWs around to help noobies out.

What is the plural of "hiatus"? Anyway, I hate them on threads that I am committed to following!

What goes on, XVY? How are you facilitating and expediting the recovery process since last you posted?