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Two years ago i had an affair with a co-worker and at the same time found she was pregnant. We decided to work through it for the family. we went to a therapist, we didnt have a whole lot of money so we saw someone with minimal experience, which now in hindsight was a horrible mistake. We stopped after about six months, she said she felt it wasnt really working and that we should try on our own. which was another mistake. This was our first hurdle in our relationship, at the time we had been together for 7 years. We really didnt know how to properly handle it, but thought what we were doning was the right thing. Apparently not. She took upon herself to try to handle and bottle up any emotion and talk to her friend and mother instead of me. She would tell me that she would go through bouts of depression, but only tell me about it afterward when she was feeling alright. This went on for two years, well three weeks ago she comes to me and says she wants a seperation and possible divorce. that she still hasnt been able to get over the cheating and that she doesnt know if she can love me and look at me the way she used to. she also adamitly feels she has done everything possible to save this marriage by bottling it in and not letting me in on how she feels at that moment. With the bad experience with counseling she doesnt feel it would make any difference this time around and to not try to make her go because she would only be resentful toward it. My friends and family tell me to give her the space she needs to work this out, but after finding this website and reading all this literature, I want to show her that we do still have hope. that her resentment is normal and that it takes the two us to work this out, and that we went about it the wrong way the last two years. I would appreciate any helpful advice.
Last edited by johnpc73; 08/20/08 09:11 PM.
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How is your money situation now? Can you afford to counsel with the Harleys? It is about $185 per hour, but it is much cheaper than divorce. They are well worth the cost.
If money is a barrier, at least try and convince her to come to the boards here and seek advice from those that follow the MB principles. Its free, so what does she have to lose right?
Also, go to your nearest bookstore and buy "Surviving an Affair" for her. Be prepared to take the reins and do all the work for now. Bottling up her emotions has most certainly resulted in a huge amount of resentment that she now feels towards you. Its going to take some work to undo that.
ex-WW had 2 PAs in first 2 years. Buh-bye.
Divorce finalized: 1/28/09
Now just living and loving again.
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She has asked for the seperation to think if she can still be happy in this marriage if she is better off out of it. Like I said she believes that she has done everything possible to save it. If i try to push this on her wont it make things worse and cause more resentment. I have already bought that book and have been reading and it has opened my eyes so much about our relationship and how we mishandled the situation.
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Is it possible that she is now having an A? You should probably investigate that route so you can cover all your bases.
Read up on Emotional Needs, see if she will fill out the questionairre with you and get busy making sure you are filling her TOP Emotional Needs. My H does many great things, but in the past has completely not touched upon my TOP needs which ultimately depletes my lovebank. That can only last for so long. It's like trying to pay for something in foreign currency. You have to find out what her currency is so that you can make deposits using it.
BS(me) - 40
FWH - 36
6 years of discovery.
Now - one day at a time....
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I thought about that, she's been accessable anytime I need to get a hold of her. We have a son and we have been sharing custody. I'd like to think she wouldnt go down the same path I went down. Like i said is it too early ask her to do these things when in her mind she feels she has done it all and nothing has worked. I dont want to end up pushing her towards the divorce as the answer because i kept bugging her and didnt give her that time, or is 2 1/2 wks enough time and I should start making my move and quit letting her hold the reigns?
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Has your W shown any interest in reading the same book since you have it? I don't think mentioning this site will be pushing her away. I would reinforce - what do have to lose since you're losing it anyway with the situation the way it is. I think distancing yourselves will only allow you both to disconnect more. I wanted to divorce my H after EA but it was his commitment to me and R that kept me around. We happen to have a good MC though too. When I found this site I would send my husband links to the articles and he appreciated it and really liked this site. If you send her a link I would stay away from "I think you'll like this article." I would rather say "Reading this article made me realize how I didn't meet your needs."
G
me - 47
H - 46
DS 16 - DD 13
H EA August 2007
"Anger makes you smaller, while forgiveness forces you to grow beyond what you were." Cherie Carter
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I just bought the book and she doesnt know because i dont know if she wants to hear it, I also ordered the 30 minute video on infedelity. I dont want her to resent me any more than she already does. but is 2 1/2 weeks enough time to stay away?
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John, did you move out?
And what happened to the baby of your OW? Do you still see the OW? Do you see your child?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Did she ask you to move out so she can have "some space?"
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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no she moved out the other woman has been out of the picture for 2 yrs. i see my son all the time. but my dilema is do I try to introduce her to the this website risking that she might resent me even more
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the baby is from my wife not the other woman.
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ahhhhhhhh gotcha!
What do think has prevented her from recovering from your affair? Were you entirely honest with her? Did you answer all her questions?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Yes i was honest with her. I strongly believe we were not educated properly about how serious the cheating would be to the relationship. it all started with the therapist we sought out. We didnt have alot of money at the time and insurance didnt cover therapy, so we sought a local university that there graduated program offered discounted therapy so that there students could gain experience. i believe from there it was all down hill. of course i didnt realize that until I found this website. But if you ask her its all my fault because I didnt do anything during those two years. Better yet I wasnt doning the things she wanted me to do, even though she never expressed anything to me.
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Melody, did u have the affair or did your husband?
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I don't see how she can resent you for trying. If anything you will both gain knowledge and other people's experience you didn't have before. It will benefit her even is she decides to pursue D. Hopefully she won't but seeing this site as a benefit to her may bring her to it.
G
me - 47
H - 46
DS 16 - DD 13
H EA August 2007
"Anger makes you smaller, while forgiveness forces you to grow beyond what you were." Cherie Carter
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I'm just torn, friends and family say to hold off and wait some, but people I talk to in this forum say to show her the information. i just to make sure I make the right move. Like I've said its only been 2 1/2 wks but it feels like 2 1/2 months.
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Better yet I wasnt doning the things she wanted me to do, even though she never expressed anything to me. What does she want you to do? And would you start doing those things? My H had the affair.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I thought I was tending to her emotional needs but after talking to her apparently I wasnt. She said I had two years to figure it out and what makes her think that I will start now. I wasnt paying enough compliments to her. I didnt tell her she looked nice enough or what a great job she did losing the baby weight and getting under her pre-prenancy weight. I am guilty of that and it was my fault that it was implied that I was proud of her. But I think her biggest complaint is that doesnt feel that she will be able to get past the cheating. That if she hasnt gotten past in two years, what are the odds that she will get past it at all? Even though we havent done any serious counseling. She seems to think she has this all figured out. I have already decided to go to counseling without her. I want to make myself better. I think she seriously believes she has no fault and that she has zero resposibility for the affair.
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hmmmm, her complaints aren't making much sense to me. Would she come here and talk to us?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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why arent her complaints making much sense? Right now no she wont do any of this because of the last experience. She feels it didnt get anything accomplished.
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If her complaint is that you are not complimentary enough, wouldn't the solution be to tell you this? Wouldn't the solution be to CHANGE THAT?
I am just not getting how moving out resolves the problem if that is the REAL PROBLEM. Either that or we are not getting the full story. I am not understanding the situation.
I don't understand why she wouldn't come here. We are not "counselors" here. But we do know how to build a great marriage. We are posters just like you.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I think she seriously believes she has no fault and that she has zero resposibility for the affair. Have you been telling her that she is responsible IN ANY WAY for your affair?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I have never said that this was any of her fault. You would fully understand the story if you read my opening post. The lack of compliments is just the icing on the cake. I think there lies some deep resentment that she would not foward with.
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But right now she refuses to talk to me about anything.
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I have never said that this was any of her fault. Why, yes you did. I showed you the quote. What do you mean by that then if you don't mean exactly that? I think she seriously believes she has no fault and that she has zero resposibility for the affair. You told us here she believes she has zero responsibility for the affair. Did you tell her that? You would fully understand the story if you read my opening post. The lack of compliments is just the icing on the cake. I think there lies some deep resentment that she would not foward with. I have read your opening post 4 times, John, and I do not get why she still has resentment. You say you have "done things wrong" these past 2 years. What exactly did you do wrong. I am not the brightest bulb on the tree, can you add more information so I can GET IT? I really am trying. See, there are some BS's who really cannot get over their resentment. But in my experience, those BS don't even TRY. Your W has TRIED, though. There are several things that could prevent this, and at the top of that list would be: a) continued contact with OP b) refusal to be honest about affair c) refusal to meet the needs of the BS d) a lack of remorse e) lack of accountability and/or blaming the victim f) a series of affairs There are others, but those things come to mind. So you can see why your comment about her "taking responsibility for the affair" sets off my red flags.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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There has been no contact with the other person, I have been honest although she feels that i am still not telling all the truth. I never refused to meet her needs I just didnt know exactly what they were. A day doesnt go by that I dont regret what I did, but I never really told her that until all of this happened. I guess I do feel that if we didnt get in that rut where our communication started to decline and she didnt really seem to interested in what I had to say, maybe i wouldnt of went looking for someone to listen to me. i even told her that I thought we were losing our connection and she agreed something was going on but we never followed up on it. i have only cheated once. I might not make sense I dont know all of the abbreviations that you are using. The wrong things we did was how we handled the affair
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ok, you are making me work too hard to get to the real story and I may give up if I have to do much more of this. No one can help you if you are not brutally honest. But something is wrong here and you are not telling the entire story. I don't like having to pull teeth to get the complete story. I seem to be working harder than you.
1. I have been honest although she feels that i am still not telling all the truth.
Exactly what does she say about this and why does she feel she is not getting the truth?
2. A day doesnt go by that I dont regret what I did, but I never really told her that until all of this happened.
How could you fail to tell your victim that you don't "regret" what did to her? Are you saying in all this time you did not show remorse for hurting her?
3. I guess I do feel that if we didnt get in that rut where our communication started to decline and she didnt really seem to interested in what I had to say, maybe i wouldnt of went looking for someone to listen to me.
So which is it?? You did blame her or you didnt??
So far, by READING BETWEEN THE LINES I have gleaned that you:
a) have expressed no remorse
b) have not made her feel she was getting the full truth
c) blame her for your affair
d) are not forthright with the truth, but play cat and mouse games - you are cagey
Am I on the right track?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Your right I didnt express enough just how remorsful I am. She thinks there was more to the relationship than there was. She doesnt believe that we didnt have sex. No it was my fault for giving in to the typical cliche of someone paying attention to me when she wouldnt. i wasnt mature enough to handle the situation properly and I went down the wrong path.
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She thinks there was more to the relationship than there was. She doesnt believe that we didnt have sex. Did you have sex with the OW? Was there more to the affair than you told her?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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No I didnt but she doesnt believe that. She believes it was only sexual because she was younger
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No I didnt but she doesnt believe that. She believes it was only sexual because she was younger You know, it would be a huge mistake to lie about this. I know when we are in trouble, we try and minimize the fallout by cutting corners on the truth. If you are holding back something, she will not rest until she knows. if you are holding something back it is better to ante up than to her find out on her own some day. And she will find out eventually. I promise you that. that would be much worse than if you told her on your own. Women are very intuitive and they almost always KNOW when someone is holding out on them. It drives them CRAZY. And they pick and pick and pick even if it takes 50 yrs to get it out. She starts to think she must be crazy. It is a very cruel thing to do to a loved one. We are like BLOODHOUNDS when we sniff out a trail. And when can't root out the truth, she gets more and more frustrated but her instincts keep telling her ......there is something, there is something.. And that little something can destroy the marriage and cause the wife to hate her H. So, John, i tell you this as a friend. If you are holding out, you are more likely to lose your marriage that way than if you spill your guts and got it over with. She KNOWS if you are telling the truth or not. And another important thing to know is that if you are hiding something, you will never have the intimacy that is the cement in a marriage. There really will always be a wedge there. You can afford to be honest with me here.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I think she seriously believes she has no fault and that she has zero resposibility for the affair. Bwhahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaa  Well she's a smart girl. NEWSFLASH - YOUR WIFE HAS NO RESPONSIBIULITY for your CHOICE to have an affair!!!!!
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
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I have been honest although she feels that i am still not telling all the truth. Honest enough for WHO? You? Completely honest and "Honest enough" are NOT the same thing.
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
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I thought about it all night about what you said, and I looked back at 2 yrs ago. I didnt give her the proper apology that she deserved.I did apologize but not what she deserved. That has been a problem all my life, being able to open up emotionally and show all my feelings. So your right I didnt show her my deepest remorse. But now is it too late, by being bottled up emotionally have I ruined our chances to reconcile.
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ok, that is a START. How about being honest about the rest of this? You have nothing to lose and everything to gain.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Yes it became sexual, but how will telling help make anything better telling her 2 yrs later. I really thought I was sparing anymore hurt by not telling her
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What if this information is the last straw and gives her absolution in wanting a divorce?
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Yes it became sexual, but how will telling help make anything better telling her 2 yrs later. I really thought I was sparing anymore hurt by not telling her Do you not see how not telling her the truth has destroyed your marriage? Can you see with your eyes what this has wrought? You have hurt her by LYING TO HER for 2 years. You have made it impossible to trust you. I knew you were lying and I have never clapped eyes on you. That is how obvious you are. She can never trust you when you have secrets with the OW to which your own wife is not privy.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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What if this information is the last straw and gives her absolution in wanting a divorce? Isn't that her right? If she wants a divorce because of this information doesn't she have a RIGHT to leave? My God, you lied to her for 2 years. Do you believe she is your PET that you keep in a marriage based on a lie against her will? John, you have made a very bad mistake. And you may lose your marriage over it. But she deserves to know the truth about her own life. She has known all this time you were lying. I KNEW it right away because you speak the language of WEASEL. Waywards speak in circles because htey are hiding something. People instinctively know this. She KNOWS.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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So has my idiocy ruined any chance of a reconciliation or is there still for us?
Last edited by johnpc73; 08/22/08 09:20 AM.
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john, There's hope BUT you HAVE to be HONEST! Read "Joseph's Letter"--the best explanation of the BS (Betrayed Spouse's) viewpoint... Joseph's Letter Also, the translation for all the abbreviations is at the top of this forum on the thread Acronyms Abbreviations
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I was doing it trying not to make the hurt any worse.
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What if this information is the last straw and gives her absolution in wanting a divorce? John, Consider the alternative. First off, withholding the truth has gotten you where you are today, which is in dire straits. Your denial that it was a sexual affair has obliterated her trust in you. It put her in a position where she had to decide whether you were lying or she was crazy. Luckily, she chose the former. It would have been immeasurably cruel of you if she had started to doubt her own sanity after you had emotionally eviscerated her. Also, attempting to manipulate someone's decisions through withholding of the truth is to deny them their status as a human being. NOT telling her in order to try and get her to stay with you under false pretenses is tantamount to treating her like a pet, not like a wife or equal. As a betrayed spouse, I can tell you one of the most important aspects of recovery is "intent". I could get all the details of the affair from my wife, but if they are given to me as a result of a police style interrogation, I will not be any closer to trusting her. If on the other hand, she surrenders that information to me because she KNOWS and ACCEPTS that I need it to heal and learn to trust again, that makes all the difference in the world. It also shows that she gets it. That she is owning her actions and putting my feelings of betrayal above her feelings of self-protection. At this point, I think if you continue what you have been doing you will undoubtedly end up divorced and she will be better off for it. Its time for you to change the status quo. I would recommend writing her an extremely humble letter that divulges all remaining (and yes I mean everything) details of the affair. Tell her you realize that this will probably be the final nail in the coffin, but she deserves to know the truth for her own mental health regardless of what she decides to do. Reiterate your love and desire to remain married to her and do whatever it takes. But make it clear that you are confessing for no other reason whatsoever than that she deserves the truth.
ex-WW had 2 PAs in first 2 years. Buh-bye.
Divorce finalized: 1/28/09
Now just living and loving again.
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I was doing it trying not to make the hurt any worse. You were trying to save your [censored]. Its time for honesty, friend. If you were trying to not hurt her you wouldn't have driven her crazy for 2 years with your lies. You know she KNEW and you wouldn't tell her. It is time for honesty, John. The full monty.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I would recommend writing her an extremely humble letter that divulges all remaining (and yes I mean everything) details of the affair. Tell her you realize that this will probably be the final nail in the coffin, but she deserves to know the truth for her own mental health regardless of what she decides to do. Reiterate your love and desire to remain married to her and do whatever it takes. But make it clear that you are confessing for no other reason whatsoever than that she deserves the truth. BINGO! Great post, andrew. You have it exactly right and I agree with your proposed course of action.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I must be serverly dense, but her knowing every miniscule detail will make her feel better? Why is that?
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I must be serverly dense, but her knowing every miniscule detail will make her feel better? Why is that? She has a right to know the truth about her OWN LIFE. She has a RIGHT to know each and every detail about your affair. As it is now, you and the OW have secrets to which she is not privy. Do you think that inspires trust? KNOWING THE FULL TRUTH IS THE ONLY WAY SHE CAN EVER RECOVER. How can she trust you when you are LYING TO HER? How dare you treat her like she is an idiot who is too weak to handle truth. How insulting.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I must be serverly dense, but her knowing every miniscule detail will make her feel better? Why is that? This is a common misconception for waywards. Confessing everything to her WILL cause short term pain for her, but why aren't you thinking long term? Confessing has the effect of cleaning the infection out of the wound. Once everything is out in the open and no secrets remain, true healing can begin. Even if she leaves you, the confession will allow her to heal and move on, rather than carry lingering doubt and resentment to her next relationship. Your focus should be on what SHE needs, not covering your own [censored] by hiding the truth. Thats all you are doing. If the lies persist and the infection remains, the wound will never heal. Do you think I want to hear about my wife's sexual affair? Hell no! But I also know myself well enough to know that if I feel that ANY secrets remain, I will never regain any capacity to trust her. Lies only protect the liar. Ignorance is not bliss, and knowing the reality of a situation is never a bad thing. Just to clarify one thing though, you don't need to "core dump" on her everything that happened in the affair. Confess the fact that it was sexual because thats a major detail, and then tell her that it is her decision regarding what she wants to know and you will answer anything she asks willingly and honestly. Start treating her with respect and let her make her own decisions.
ex-WW had 2 PAs in first 2 years. Buh-bye.
Divorce finalized: 1/28/09
Now just living and loving again.
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I need to take my son to daycare will the two of you still be around? You are giving me so much insight.
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I'll be around for a few hours. I'm working at home today so I update the page every so often.
ex-WW had 2 PAs in first 2 years. Buh-bye.
Divorce finalized: 1/28/09
Now just living and loving again.
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I just read Joseph's letter and it was a very interesting way to put things into perspective. I never looked at it that way, I thought I was sparing the person more anguish. Without pressuring her how do I get her to look at this website or at least read some of the material in this website. Because she is jaded about any kind of therapy right now. Should I just wait? I made an appointment with a therapist today. Is there a way to tell if I'm speaking to someone good, or should I see several and see which one seems to be the best.
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John, you don't need a therapist to just tell her the truth. You need to be honest with her. She already went to therapy and it did nothing.
I would suggest writing her the letter like Andrew suggested, confessing the truth, and apologizing for lying to her. Dont tell her you were "protecting" her, that is insulting as he11 and she won't believe it anyway.
TEll her that you spoke to some posters on Marriage Builders who helped you the truth. Tell her that we would like to talk to her.
Is she disgusted with therapy because they told her to "get over it?" Did they tell her that? What all happened in therapy?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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You are in a tough spot here. If you try to show MB to her now, you are almost definitely going to fail. Why? Because she feels that she has done the therapy thing, none of it has worked, and you are the same guy you have been for the last 2 years. She has spent 2 years trying to become close to you, but been unable to, due in large part to your continued lying. I think before she will even consider reading on MB, YOU need to do something to break the status quo. YOU need to perform some act that lets her know that you are not the same brick wall that she has beat her head against for 2 years. Discussing MB won't accomplish that.
I think you know what will. You need to stop trying to protect yourself in all this and start working on giving her what she needs. You said she felt that you were lying about the PA. Its time to validate those feelings and tell her that she was right. There simply isn't a way that you can come out of this with your marriage intact and your secret safely hidden. It doesn't work like that.
My recommendation is as it stands in my previous post. Don't bother trying to show her MB right now. It will just be more of the same for her. You need to communicate the truth to her in utter humility, and then stand back and accept her decision. If you want to make sure your message comes across how it should, write out what you want to say, post it here, and we can give you a betrayed spouse interpretation of it.
One of the hardest things for you to really accept I think, will be that there may be nothing you can do to bring her back. Some actions have irrevocable consequences. Confessing is the ONLY way for to fan the tiny spark that might still remain. Or it may be the last straw and she immediately sees a lawyer. If that is what she does, your atonement to this woman should involve making divorce as easy and painless as possible for her.
Last edited by andrew3; 08/22/08 01:13 PM. Reason: Replaced a word.
ex-WW had 2 PAs in first 2 years. Buh-bye.
Divorce finalized: 1/28/09
Now just living and loving again.
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Oh and the reason I suggest a letter is because its non-threatening. She won't feel like she is being confronted or pressured to come up with an answer or carry a conversation. She can read it and absorb it at her leisure and think about how to respond.
ex-WW had 2 PAs in first 2 years. Buh-bye.
Divorce finalized: 1/28/09
Now just living and loving again.
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I agree with your idea about the letter, Andrew. And I would also suggest he post the letter here so we can give him feedback. He is still foggy from deceiving her all this time so it will be important for us to weed that out. She doesn't even need to see any more sign of fog.
Lets see how she takes the letter and then take it from there.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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p.s. Andrew, your posts are fabulous. I am thrilled you are here to help this man.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Thanks MelodyLane.
I have tried to absorb as much information as I can from the wealth of knowledgable veterans here, yourself included of course.
Unfortunately, I won't be around tonight or tomorrow night since Im heading out to help a friend take his Boy Scout Troop Camping. He is in very capable hands with you though.
ex-WW had 2 PAs in first 2 years. Buh-bye.
Divorce finalized: 1/28/09
Now just living and loving again.
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Just got back from a session with a therapist. I think it went well. She wont be helping me in the future, it turns out she is out of my insurances network but one of her associates that she recommends is in the network. So I'm trying to book some sessions with her, but apparently not all therapists work on fridays.
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What are you going to therapy about?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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For me and the marriage. I know I cant get her to go, but that doesnt mean I cant to help me out and figure things out about our marriage. I want to fix my issues.
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For me and the marriage. I know I cant get her to go, but that doesnt mean I cant to help me out and figure things out about our marriage. I want to fix my issues. ok, do you need a therapist to fix your issues? It seems to me like the main issue here is honesty. MC is usually pretty much a waste of time. Most MC don't have the slightest idea how to save a marriage. What did you think of Andrews suggestion to write the letter?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I agree with the letter but I dont feel the same about MC there's gotta be some benefits to seeing a counselor
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I agree with the letter but I dont feel the same about MC there's gotta be some benefits to seeing a counselor Yes, there is a benefit....to his POCKET BOOK. Marriage counseling has the HIGHEST FAILURE RATE of any of the counseling disciplines at 84% failure. They have a higher divorce rate than the general population. They are not pro-marriage and don't have the slightest idea how to save marriages. If you went to one with your wife right now, I have no doubt that he would try to get you used to the idea of a DIVORCE and strive to faciliate an amicable divorce, RATHER THAN figure out what the real problem is and work to fix it. therapy is cute and all, but just not very effective in problem solving. It more often causes more problems than it cures.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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So then how do you reconcile a marriage. The couple does it on their own? We tried that and we didnt get very far during those two years. She stayed bottled up thinking that was the answer and I let her. Williard Harley is a marriage counselor?
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So then how do you reconcile a marriage. The couple does it on their own? We tried that and we didnt get very far during those two years. She stayed bottled up thinking that was the answer and I let her. Williard Harley is a marriage counselor? Most people DO recover their marriages without marriage counseling. MC is largely a FAILURE. But Dr. Harley's program is extremely successful. You can do it out of the books or you can pay for marriage coaching at MB. We on the forum have recovered our marriages and know the program and can help you too. The reason you didn't get very far is because of your dishonesty. Your marriage is not recovered for the very reasons I gave you. I am not a counselor but people here figured it out. The reason is that it is impossible to recover a marriage when one member is dishonest. It is impossible to recover a marriage when one has no remorse for an affair. We can help you recover your marriage using Dr. Harleys principles if it can even be saved. MB also has marriage coaching that goes for about $185 an hour and that is very effective. But there is not much to do until you can attract your wife back.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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So you dont believe that her keeping everything bottled up didnt play a small part in our lack communication. So after the letter what would be the next move
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I disagree with Mel. There are some really good MCs. MC helped us with our communication and listening to each other and helped save our marriage. We had MC first and I found this site afterwards. My H liked the articles on this site and the questionnaires. We saw MC for about four months. The MC felt Dr. Phil's book Relationship Rescue was a good start for us because the first chapter focused on the individual. I like the first three chapters because it was about understanding yourself. You can get right with someone else until you're right with yourself. Some people don't believe it but I stronly believe this to be true.
me - 47
H - 46
DS 16 - DD 13
H EA August 2007
"Anger makes you smaller, while forgiveness forces you to grow beyond what you were." Cherie Carter
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So you dont believe that her keeping everything bottled up didnt play a small part in our lack communication. So after the letter what would be the next move What do you mean exactly by lack of communication? I think dishonesty probably played a huge part in that, don't you?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Yes I understand about the dishonesty, can we moved past the part and also look at the other issues in the marriage. Everytime I bring up another issue in the marriage you revert back to the dishonesty, and yes I am aware of the importance of that. Harley expresses alot about communication in the marriage, that went missing during those two years.
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John - Mel keeps bringing it up because it is the single most important thing - it has caused you to get to the point where you are today.
First things first.
If you think you can weasel around being honest by deflecting onto other "issues" like communication you are mistaken. Nothing will improve until you take that first step.
Dr Harley's plan is pretty simple - he doesn't focus on "individual" counselling and digging into all your past because he believes that is a waste of time. Dr Harley focuses on modifying your BEHAVIOUR NOW.
His basic concepts are as follows:
1. 15 hours a week of undivided attention.
2. Being the source of your partners greatest happiness (meeting EN's)
3. Not being the source of your partners greatest unhappiness (avoiding LB's)
4. Openness and Honesty.
There's a lot of great material on this site about those things.
You won't find much about communication though.
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
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Yes I understand about the dishonesty, can we moved past the part and also look at the other issues in the marriage. NO. Why would we talk about the peeling paint in the girls bathroom when the Titantic is sinking? Your dishonesty has about destroyed your marriage, and until it is seriously addressed there is no other 'issue" to address. Talking about "communication problems" when you have been ABUSING your wife for several years with adultery and then 2 years of LYING is a silly diversion. I don't think you GET what is going on here, John. It is not your "communication issues" that has caused your wife to get sick and tired of your crap. So no, if you want to waste your time blabbing about completely irrelevent issues, be my guest. But I won't waste any time on someone who spinning his wheels with nonsense.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I agreed with her that I should write my wife a letter telling her everything about the affair that I didnt tell her. So we shouldnt discuss anything else until that happens?
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So you're telling me that if I had been upfront with everything in the affair, she wouldnt of tried to resolve it herself over the last 2 yrs?
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I'm not spinning my wheels, I'm trying understand the aspects of all of my mistakes. You can't tell me that was the only mistake I made. I understand it was the biggest but it cant be the only one.
Last edited by johnpc73; 08/22/08 08:55 PM.
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I'm sure it isn't the only one - but it is the one that made the biggest impact.
WHEN are you going to act and tell her? What is your TIMEFRAME for writing and giving her that letter?
See I KNOW you - you're a lot like me - you want this FIXED right now dammit. I'm very sorry but it doesn't work like that. You can't see the end from the beginning here. You must take one step after another, one foot in front of the other.
You want to know all the steps - but the steps will be guided by what happens after you have taken the previous step.
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
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See! Saying it like that makes so much sense to me,and your right I want to try to fix it right now. I try to tell myself that this is a marathon and not a sprint, but sometimes I feel that the window opportunity is closing and I do have to sprint. I'm scared that the longer she doesnt have much interaction with me as far as talking then she will forget about me and the good things we did have in our relationship. Then I tell myself that she cant forget 9 yrs that quickly and I have to calm myself down. I havent really established a time frame, andrew brought up the idea today. I want to make sure its the right time though, I dont want to screw this up again.
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it IS the right time. Duh.
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
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I'm not spinning my wheels, I'm trying understand the aspects of all of my mistakes. You can't tell me that was the only mistake I made. I understand it was the biggest but it cant be the only one. WHAT?? You mean there is MORE? There is something WORSE here than adultery and lying? What would that be?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Ok then. Melody and andrew would like me to post it so that they can proof it and make sure I dont mess this up.
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I'm talking about the other things that she mentioned that made her leave, the lack of emotion, not meeting ther emotional needs, making her feel like she had to walk on egg shells around me.
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No weasel words, John!!! 
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I'm talking about the other things that she mentioned that made her leave, the lack of emotion, not meeting ther emotional needs, making her feel like she had to walk on egg shells around me. Why does she feel she has to walk on eggshells? Did you bark at her? BE HONEST!
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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What are weasel words!? She said I would get easily irritated with her if she didnt do something exactly the way I wanted her to do it, or if she didnt answer a question the way I wanted her to answer it.
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What are weasel words!? She said I would get easily irritated with her if she didnt do something exactly the way I wanted her to do it, or if she didnt answer a question the way I wanted her to answer it. weasel words = bullcrap and talking around the issue like you just did in the paragraph above. Your comment begs the question, DID YOU GET IRRITABLE WITH HER? See,how you answer stuff like this in a very indirect, roundabout manner? Instead of saying: a) I was a [censored] who was irritable with her you say: b) she SAID I would get easily irritated So, now I don't what is true. Were you irritable with her? Were you ugly and mean to your wife. WERE YOU A [censored]? What did you DO to make her feel like that?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Look, if I knew what she meant I would say it. The words I'm saying are words she used when she told me. This had never been mentioned until that day. I dont yell at my wife, in fact we dont yell at each. I really cant recall us ever having a yelling match about anything. I still dont know because she wont discuss anything with me right now.
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What is your HONEST ASSESSMENT of your own behavior towards her? How would you describe your own behavior if you were going to be brutally honest?
How old are you, John? How long have yall been married?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Where's the letter John? Will your wife come here to MB?
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
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I'm 35 we've been married for almost 4 yrs but together for 9, she is 28. My assesment is that i knew I had a problem expressing my feelings towards her, I didnt realize it was as bad as it was. When I told my aunt who is like a mom to me, she said I was emotionally cold. The last ten years I see my family maybe twice a year, so if someone who I dont see as much tells me that, I can only imagine how I've made her feel. i can only imagine because no one has ever told me this before. People have said I tend to be to blunt with things I say, so I would say maybe thats how I make her feel. I'm having to guess like I said before she hasnt sighted anything in particular. I told you kahuna it was an idea that Andrew proposed today. I've been here at work since 2. No she wont come to MB, not right now at least.
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John I know I am coming in here later then the others. But I have to agree with Andrew and Mel. You need to write a FULL HONEST letter to your wife. If shes against taking it then leave it somewhere she will see when shes ready to read it she will. Just simply say this is the whole truth about 2 yrs ago. And walk away. BUT THE LETTER NEEDS TO BE THE WHOLE HONEST TRUTH. ABOUT EVERYTHING THAT LEAD UP TO THE A, DURING THE A, AND AFTER THE A, TO PRESENT TIME.
Yes the reason they keep going back to the HONESTY issue is because you have a problem in being honest. OMG I was like that. Up till a few weeks ago. I gave DH his letter. He is so much happier. Difference my A was 9 yrs ago. We were already well into R, he didnt want it then *or didnt mention it then* till recently and I gave it to him. Each move at there own pace.
Yes if there are other issues they can be addressed but we need to BELIEVE you are open with us.
Be proud you are here. This is a great community and full of great advice. YOU are seeking advice and guidence from wonderful people who put so much time and effort into others on here.
You mentioned you bought the book? Well dont hide it. Leave it on the coffee table or night stand and see what she will do with it. She needs to SEE you are trying. I think she feels that she hasnt seen you TRY or whatever in 2 yrs and shes tired of keeping her pain inside. YOU need to protect her John. And let her know that as well.
Married 1996 4 wonderful children 16, 13 *OC*, 10, 7 FWW 30's FWH 30's My dday 1-2007 he came clean to me My story New beginings
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Im not disagreeing about the letter they are right. Am i coming off that way. If I am I dont mean to, Andrew just mentioned the idea this afternoon. i just got home from work, i do need a chance to actually sit down and write it.
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She doesnt know about the book, but I'm hiding it at home. I think she is avoiding the house, she has only been by once to drop my son off. She does know about me seeing a therapist only because I'm on her insurance at her work and I needed to get the information from her.
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Was the therapy thing a ruse to get her back?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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No. After she told me those things and left I stepped back and looked at the last two years and also told my family what she had said, and they agreed with her. They actually said we were both that way with each other, I was worse though. They said I was just like my mother, and I see how how my mother is, she isnt the most affectionate person. I told myself I didnt want to end up being like that to people I care about and turned out that way anyway. I keep replaying this one sentence she said to me"you had two years and you didnt anything."
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Hey John, there a couple of really helpful books that can show you how to fall in love again that you would want to check out. I would start with:
His Needs, Her Needs
Lovebusters
Fall in Love, Stay in Love
You can buy them cheap on this website or get them at most bookstores. The way that MB is different from therapy is that it teaches you NEW behavior. It focuses on behavior modification which is much more effective than sitting in therapy yapping about grievances. There is a world of difference in effectiveness, I promise you. [I have been most routes and so have many ppl here]
Go read all the articles here about lovebusters and emotional needs and that should give you some understanding of how love is built in a marriage and what you have done to erode it in your marriage. That understanding might be helpful in formulating your letter.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I'll do that thanks. I am having a hard time trying to read into the boundaries of the seperation, we havent spoken about it. I saw her last on monday and she didnt have her rings on. I asked her about it later and she said that its because we're seperated, that what you do. I said that we were still married and she said technically. I said what does that mean. She said seperation is the next step you do before divorce. I asked her that you are telling me right now at this moment you are 100% ready and decided to call the lawyers, because if you are then why are you dancing around with this next step"seperation". She said no that she wasnt sure. She said we were seperated and free to see other people. I saod is that what you are doing letting people know youre available. She said no I dont want see anyone, but we are seperated. Then she said " you took off your F***** ring last time and didnt even tell me!" Then she said she needed to go because our son was crying and we havent discussed anything since then and that was Monday. I dont know what I can and cant say or what we can even talk about. How do I approach this or do I even try right now?
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The first thing you can do is stop arguing with her. That is not going to get her back. That is going to push her away more. Frankly, she can do what she wants while separated and you can't stop her. Making demands won't get you anywhere except frustrated.
Do you think she is having an affair? Is she living with her parents? Do have a good relationship with her parents? Would her parents tolerate her having an affair?
Go read the article on lovebusters.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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John, consider yourself in a NEW dating situation. If you are interested in a girl, do you speak to her the way you spoke to your wife yesterday? Or are you as PLEASANT and attractive as possible?
Do you get where I am going here? When we are married we get into very unattractive habits that turn a spouse off. You can't afford to be unattractive while trying to attrct your wife back. She already thinks you are a jerk, so when you argue and fuss with her, you just give her MORE AMMUNITION to support her decision to leave.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I dont think she is having an affair, she is living with her best friend and she wouldnt tolerate it.I told her that it hurt to see the rings off and that I didnt think we were at that point. Thats when she made when she made the comment about me taking my ring off without telling her. Most of the conversations I have with her I try to make pleasant, but those are few and far between. I dont how much communication to have with her, she kind of avoids topic and then will say "because we're seperated." Friends and family say to make minimal contact, give her her space. I feel I need to talk to her daily just so she doesnt forget that I havent always been a complete jerk. It just cause such a big knot in my stomach, its ahrd to eat or sleep. I keep replaying conversations we have and end up trying to read into too much. If I can just stop doing that I could get through a day alittle better.
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That had some great points. I hate having access to all this information and being able to share this with her. Do you think its a bad idea print off this information and see if she would at least read it, or is that pushing her too soon. I constantly go back to something she said to me, she said "do you know anyone that made it through an affair that is married because I dont, and thats because it doesnt happen a marriage cant make it." We really dont know too many married in the first majority of our friends are single. I wanted to say it but I didnt was that "no I dont know anyone that has made it, but if they did make theyre not exactly going around advertising it either." I later came to find out my aunt and uncle went through this 15 yrs ago and made it and I had no idea. A good friend of ours just told me that his parents went through awhile ago and were able reconcile, and all these people on this forum. I just want to point that out and tell that it is possible because the majority do make it. How accurate do you feel about this quote, "When its all said and done, the only people that matter are the people in the marriage." I think she's really concerned about what friends think about her if she were to stay with someone who cheated. She has kind of made some comments about that.
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Well Dr Harley says 2 things -
1. The majority of marriages do not survive an affair. Even if a marriage survives it is unfulfilling and unhappy. The infidelity rate in marriage is somewhere between 60 and 80%. The divorce rate is 50% in the USA. Think there might be a connection?
2. 100% of people who follow his program end up with a happy fulfilling marriage even after infidelity.
So the news is good if you will work the program.
I suspect she may be seeing someone John and you are very naive to think otherwise. Huge red flags there.
I do suggest printing out the basic concepts including information about emotional needs and love busters and see if she will read them. Alternately, the book "Fall in love, stay in love" by Dr Harley is a good summary of his plan for a happy marriage.
There are many people here on this site who now have great marriages even after indifelity. I am one.
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
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Why do you believe she is seeing someone? I shouldnt trust what she is saying? What are the red flags?
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I definitely dont like hearing that. We had told each other if there was someone else we would tell each other. I dont like having that juggling in my head its ahrd enough to work as it is. I believe she has more conviction than that. Her mom and best friend would not let her pull that and not be straight foward with me. They know how my cheating hurt her and what it put her through.
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Well she's given you permission to date. DUH - it's not that hard adding up one and one. Adds up to TWO in case you were wondering.
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
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I dont think she know what your suppose to do when you seperate, I dont know what you are suppose to do. Theres not exactly a handbook. I did the same thing two years ago, but I did it without telling her, and that p***ed her off. She called me a hypocrite for giving her a hard time because I did the same thing.
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I dont know where your getting your numbers but the ones I've seen show the majority of marriages making it through an affair. I have seen though the 60% to 80% affair rate.
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I dont know where your getting your numbers but the ones I've seen show the majority of marriages making it through an affair. I didn't see any numbers given, just that Dr. Harley has said that most marriages don't survive an affair. I've heard him say that on his radio show.
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I heard him say differently on the video on this website on infedelity.
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I think you are mistaken in what you heard John. Dr Harley always says recovery from an affair is a NARROW road. He does say that IF you both follow his plans that you will have success (100%) But most marriages do not recover from an affair - EVEN if they stay together, they never get over it and have a great marriage UNLESS they follow his plan for restoring love.
Why are you so hung up on statistics?
Here's a statistic. Frank Pittman a psychologist has said that in 40 years of marital counselling he has seen (I think) 3 long term marriages end that were not ended because of adultery.
In other words, all long term marriages that divorce inevitably have involved infidelity.
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
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Well I guess I've seen other websites and read other articles that give more positive success rate of marriages surviving through an affair. I know its going to be really hard because she has 2 yrs hurt and hate that I caused but I got to stay positive in knowing that I can get through to her. Its going to be a hard sell to get to want to try Harley's program and I dont know how to plant the seed to get her interested.
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I think we are getting off topic here.
John, have you had a chance to write that letter yet? The sooner you get it done, the sooner you can get it to her.
I do want to reiterate one point to you though. The purpose of this letter is not to try and get your wife to reinvest in you and in this marriage. You should not have any expectations on that front. It sounds like a distinct possibility that she is just done and uninterested in remaining married to you. That is her choice.
You are writing this letter, because it represents a change that you need to make to you. You are giving her all the major details and telling her you will answer any questions without equivocation, because she deserves it. You are treating her like a mature adult that has the right to make decisions regarding her life based on truthful information. You can't change her. All you can do is make the changes you need to make to you and maybe she will react to those changes.
Again, I wouldn't bother bringing up Marriage Builders right now. She won't be interested until she becomes intrigued by the source of your change. If she asks, be honest with her, but let HER initiate that conversation.
ex-WW had 2 PAs in first 2 years. Buh-bye.
Divorce finalized: 1/28/09
Now just living and loving again.
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John - I agree with Andrew - where's your letter?
You are on this site so you have an excellent chance of recovery.
But you're putting the cart before the horse. Take a step at a time and stop avoiding it. Your marriage won't recover without honesty as you have already discovered.
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
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The wont help or hurt, it doesnt matter. She's done.I talked to her yesterday and today and everything steams from the act itself and the emotional abandonment I caused her the last two years. I didnt know what I was doing and I didnt know how to fix it. She asked for help and I turned my back on her. I didnt realize i was doing that, but i did it. It doesnt seem she will be able to get over it. I guess youre right big kahuna, I guess you can say you told me so. I'm gonna keep going to counseling and keep reading Harley's books. She's already asking about when we could canput the house on the market. She told me that she didnt realize it but mentally she has been leaving for two years. I dont know if that is really her talking or the resentment she said she feels for all the hurt I caused her the last two years, but that's where she's at right now.
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Well you can of course just give up or you can fight.
It's not over by a long shot.
What do you want to do?
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
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The wont help or hurt, it doesnt matter. She's done.I talked to her yesterday and today and everything steams from the act itself and the emotional abandonment I caused her the last two years. I didnt know what I was doing and I didnt know how to fix it. She asked for help and I turned my back on her. I didnt realize i was doing that, but i did it. It doesnt seem she will be able to get over it. I guess youre right big kahuna, I guess you can say you told me so. I'm gonna keep going to counseling and keep reading Harley's books. She's already asking about when we could canput the house on the market. She told me that she didnt realize it but mentally she has been leaving for two years. I dont know if that is really her talking or the resentment she said she feels for all the hurt I caused her the last two years, but that's where she's at right now. So what you are saying is that you won't write the letter, because you don't stand to get anything out of it? Your wife does not deserve the truth?
ex-WW had 2 PAs in first 2 years. Buh-bye.
Divorce finalized: 1/28/09
Now just living and loving again.
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I want to fight, but the wall she has up seems so impenetrapable. What and how do I get started. Last night she told me that she realized that she ahd probably had been leaving emotionally the last two years. That pissed me off, to know that I've been emotionally invested the last two years to try to make this work and all along she's been slowly leaving. In the begining I had made a comment that I thought we had half assed trying to reconcile. Not that because we didnt want to try, but that we didnt know what to do or the amount of work involved. She trys to make herself out to be some kind or martar for trying the past two years and then she makes that comment. I didnt say anything to about it, but I wanted to. She thinks that she is some kind of great communicator, but she's not. That's one of her faults, but she doesnt believe. We are both not great communicator. The difference is I know it and I want to work on it. I just never realized how bad I was at it until now.
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I want to fight, but the wall she has up seems so impenetrapable. What and how do I get started. Last night she told me that she realized that she ahd probably had been leaving emotionally the last two years. That pissed me off, to know that I've been emotionally invested the last two years to try to make this work and all along she's been slowly leaving. If you were pissed off by her comment, imagine how she has felt like being lied to for the past two years. In the begining I had made a comment that I thought we had half assed trying to reconcile. Not that because we didnt want to try, but that we didnt know what to do or the amount of work involved. She trys to make herself out to be some kind or martar for trying the past two years and then she makes that comment. I didnt say anything to about it, but I wanted to. She thinks that she is some kind of great communicator, but she's not. That's one of her faults, but she doesnt believe. We are both not great communicator. The difference is I know it and I want to work on it. I just never realized how bad I was at it until now. If you want your marriage you need to muster up the strength to fight twice as hard. What did you expect she would do? It took you two years to tell her and since you admit that neither of you are good communicators then perhaps you didn't say the things she wanted or needed to her. She shuts down, you get pissed and that's the end of the conversation. If she is that closed off to you, you should write the letter. At the very least you can express your remorse, your desire to be a good husband, willingness to provide just compensation, apologize for everything from the affair to the way you handled it, etc. At this point, you have nothing to lose if she already has one foot out the door.
BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011
Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.
We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
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I want to fight, but the wall she has up seems so impenetrapable. What and how do I get started. Last night she told me that she realized that she ahd probably had been leaving emotionally the last two years. That pissed me off, to know that I've been emotionally invested the last two years to try to make this work and all along she's been slowly leaving. In the begining I had made a comment that I thought we had half assed trying to reconcile. Not that because we didnt want to try, but that we didnt know what to do or the amount of work involved. She trys to make herself out to be some kind or martar for trying the past two years and then she makes that comment. I didnt say anything to about it, but I wanted to. She thinks that she is some kind of great communicator, but she's not. That's one of her faults, but she doesnt believe. We are both not great communicator. The difference is I know it and I want to work on it. I just never realized how bad I was at it until now. John your attidude is all wrong. If you want to fight for your marriage, then fight for it, and stop complaining about her walls. If you want your marriage, her walls are irrelevant to the amount of effort you can put in given the options open to you. Secondly, the way you write here comes off as you trying to downplay your role in her leaving emotionally and blame it on her own issues with communication. Well, she may have issues with communication, but those are also irrelevant to you right now. Remember you told us that she never believed you when you said the affair wasn't sexual? Well, people like MelodyLane picked up right away that you were lying about that and your wife knew it too. You have no idea the huge toll that those lies take. Your wife was willing to take you back and she even stayed for 2 years, while you repeatedly lied to her face and told her she was crazy (implicitly if not explicitly) and then you accuse her of a lack of effort. The single greatest thing you can do for your wife right now is be honest with her, for her sake, not for yours. You have been a liar for years now. What change will make the most difference to her? The answer is to take the first step back towards a life of honesty and integrity. But you should be doing that ANYWAYS, for you. What sort of person do you want to be? Instead, you are rationalizing ways to continue hiding the truth from her because "she has impenetrable walls". Thats a copout. A way to convince yourself that taking the easy road is the right road. How do you get started? Easy. Right a confession and apology letter and then either slip it under her door, mail it to her, or have her roommate pass it to her. No interaction is required. We will gladly help you fine tune it. Lastly, contradictions don't exist. You cannot claim to want your marriage, when you are unwilling to take the first step. Actions speak louder than words and your actions are telling us you aren't willing to tell her the truth. Unless you take decisive and immediate action to change that, your wife is better off without you.
Last edited by andrew3; 08/26/08 09:21 AM.
ex-WW had 2 PAs in first 2 years. Buh-bye.
Divorce finalized: 1/28/09
Now just living and loving again.
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Raven, I've done that. I have written two letters, the last one apoloizing for not expressing my remorse or expressing my feelings more freely towards her and her needs. She looks back at the last two years as her doing this great communication job and is being so stubborn she wont believe otherwise. Especially from me, she thinks I 'm coming at her. I keep telling her if I knew I was truly causing her this much pain all along I would of done something to try to fix it. I just hate to hear the way she talks, that its so set. Maybe tour right the only for her to hear me is to keep writing letters. Hopefully she'll read them and not throw them away. She absolutely refuses to want to see a therapist right now, although she has told me she has alot of pent up resentment and bitterness. I try to tell myself that its the resentment talking and that not really how she feels.
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I dont think I was accusing of a lack of effort, I think she admitted to that when she said she had been leaving mentally for two years. I'm not complaining about the walls, I want to know what to do to crack through the wall. I guess I have to try to be patient, I'v started counseling sessions with a therapist to work on me. Do you think it's good idea to print out the steps on how to survive infedelity off the web site and see if she would at least read them?
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I dont think I was accusing of a lack of effort, I think she admitted to that when she said she had been leaving mentally for two years. I'm not complaining about the walls, I want to know what to do to crack through the wall. I guess I have to try to be patient, I'v started counseling sessions with a therapist to work on me. Do you think it's good idea to print out the steps on how to survive infedelity off the web site and see if she would at least read them? John, You said you have written her some letters, but have you admitted to her yet the full truth of the affair? Have you told her that she was right that it was sexual? I did not see that in any of your posts here. As for her leaving emotionally, maybe thats true, maybe it isn't. Maybe its like her version of rewriting marital history as a response to not feeling like you were actually trying to recover. Who knows? I just don't see what help to your situation analyzing her motivations can bring. I don't think printing out anything from this site will be helpful right now. Your wife is heading out the door and you need to shock her into hesitating and reevaluating. Maybe thats impossible, but you need to do something that will show her that you are not the guy that wore her down emotionally over the last 2 years. It seems that the people who are replying to you with a unanimous voice believe that complete and honest disclosure is the way to do that.
ex-WW had 2 PAs in first 2 years. Buh-bye.
Divorce finalized: 1/28/09
Now just living and loving again.
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So how do I shock her into hesitating and reevaluating?
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Have you confessed that the affair was physical yet?
ex-WW had 2 PAs in first 2 years. Buh-bye.
Divorce finalized: 1/28/09
Now just living and loving again.
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No, thats going to cause her to hesitate and reevaluate?
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John, Why would she want to stay with someone who lies to her? This is still all about you and what you want.
You need a plan. I strongly urge you to call the Harley's counseling center for an appointment for yourself. They can help you develop a plan to recover your integrity and hopefully heal your wife and your marriage.
This is not therapy, it is a marital recovery plan.
It is way way way cheaper than divorce. Even if your wife does not want counseling, you will benefit from straight-shooting advice in developing a plan.
Chrysalis
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I'm having a hard time believing that doing this after two years is going to be benefical, when the things she keeps reitterating on dont mention the physical part of affair just the fact that i did it period and the two years she spent trying to get through it by herself and believing that I wasnt trying to help. Will my insurance cover any sessions with the Harleys. I have begun counseling sessions already.
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No, thats going to cause her to hesitate and reevaluate? Good grief man - how could you claim that you were working on the M for the last two years, when what you actually did was to continue lying to your W to protect your own [censored]? It's time to man-up, fess-up, let her know what YOU would like your future to be with her, and leave the decisions she has to make to her. Stop trying to manipulate your BW with your dishonesty!
ManInMotion
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(see "MiM's Story" for more details)
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John, she is right about the two years. You weren't trying to help her heal, you were trying to make the problem go away without being truthful.
Let me tell you a little bit of my story. My H lied to me for 2 years after I first discovered his A. He kept taking it further and further underground.
There were secret cell phones. When I heard them ringing, he watched me go through breakdowns and still tried to make me think I had imagined the sounds. When I found the phones, he lied to me about the frequency of calls. The day of my mother's funeral I went through his cell phone records for one of the secret phones and discovered months of many calls a day.
We had one more D-day after that-- I tell you, he was a hard, hard case. By the time of the last D-day, I was severely traumatized. In many ways, leaving would have been easier. I certainly had no hope left that this man could recover his integrity.
We had one compelling reason to try to keep it together-- a special needs teen who badly needs us both. That was the only reason. Not even our 30 years together-- just a last ditch effort to try to keep from shattering our child's life even further.
He turned over his work pager and work email access to me. He is fully accountable for every move. It has taken him months to get over his wayward attitudes, but he has come a long, long way. He accepts responsibility for the damage he caused to me (and there is indeed long-term damage to me.)
He is a different man today. I am in love with him again, and he with me. I never thought that could happen.
Find the $195 to schedule an appointment. Good grief, around here divorce attorneys come at $300 an hour, and you have to have 2 of them!
You need to find your courage. That is what you are lacking. The rest of it is just excuses.
The benefit to the coaching center here is that it is extremely practical and will help you make a plan. You need a plan with concrete action to take. It is not a waste of money. It will save you money and help you become a better man.
Chrysalis
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John - I was lied to, over and over and over again, for nearly a year after we began recovery. I was lied to about the length of the affair, and about other affairs.
I don't know if I can explain to you, properly, how insanely CRAZY it made me fee.
There is nothing ... nothing worse you can do to a loved one than to continually LIE to them.
Stop it.
Stop it right now. It is NOT loving. It is NOT protecting. It is CRUEL and INHUMANE!
Tell you wife the truth, John. The longer you wait, the more resentment she will hold against you.
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No, thats going to cause her to hesitate and reevaluate? Maybe, maybe not. Its not what you are confessing that is as important as the act itself. You have been a liar for years now and that is almost certainly a great contributor to your wife's distance and hopelessness now. So how do you correct that problem? With honesty. By confessing everything and laying it all out in the open, you just might cause your wife to think "I'm not used to honesty from him, maybe he CAN change" or something along those lines. Or she might use it to validate all the resentment she has built up from being manipulated and immediately file for divorce. Can you answer this question... Does your wife deserve to know the truth? Or does she deserve to be manipulated through misinformation? The answer should be obvious as should your course of action.
ex-WW had 2 PAs in first 2 years. Buh-bye.
Divorce finalized: 1/28/09
Now just living and loving again.
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I did tell her I want my future to be her and our son, maninmotion. Alright Andrew What am I suppose to say in this letter. Am to go into extreme detail. She knows I've told her everything except admitting to the physical part of the affair. By doing this what outcomes can I come to possibly expect, so that I can prepare myself mentally for this. I'm already a wreak as it is.
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why don't you put a simple letter together and post it here. You were going to do that a few days ago.
She might still leave you, but if you can't find your integrity you have no chance of a full and happy life with her or anyone else. If you can become an honest man you might just have a chance.
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John
I don’t post here much but have been around for several years. You need to listen to these people here and come clean.
Over several years my WS has lied to me and I’ve always know whether she was willing to admit it or not. Over time your BS has gotten tired of the lies; trust me she knows. I suggest the only way for you to start to rebuild your marriage is honesty.
Take care and I wish you the best of luck
ME 55
S 33,31,29,D 19
DDay 9/2005
Continued contact thru 7/06
Contact 12/06 Contact 5/07
Divorced 12/14/09
Married 13 days short of 34 years
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And no, leave out the extreme detail, keep it simple, but offer to answer her questions fully and to take a polygraph if she desires.
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No, don't go into extreme detail. She gets to decide how much she wants to know. Your resonsibility is to be open and honest with any questions she has.
I would keep it pretty short and simple. I would start by validating her feelings about the last 2 years regarding your approach to recovery and how you were not completely honest with her. You can list a few reasons such as not wanting to hurt her more, or you were too ashamed to admit or whatever, but make it clear that those are just excuses to avoid doing what you had an obligation to do: be honest. Take responsibility for the damage done by the repeated lying, and then come clean and admit that the affair was sexual, and I would give the timeframe that it was. Tell her that you will answer any and all questions that she has without hesitation or equivocation.
In conclusion, I would stress that you are telling her this now not to hurt her or manipulate her, but for the sole reason that she deserves to know the truth. Then apologize again for keeping it from her for so long. Finish off by restating your desire to do whatever it takes to help her heal from this and will respect any decision she makes regarding the marriage. Tell her you love her, are extremely remorseful and ashamed for hurting her through your selfishness, and you want to spend your life making it up to her.
On a final note, this isn't "Andrew's plan to get John to confess to his wife." This is the first step of the Marriage Builders Recovery Plan. I am just one of many voices in this thread trying to bring you around.
ex-WW had 2 PAs in first 2 years. Buh-bye.
Divorce finalized: 1/28/09
Now just living and loving again.
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What about when she said that she realized that she had been leaving mentally for the last two years. How can she right telling she gave it her all, and then make comment. Then she directs the last two years telling me she feels I did nothing. i would ask her if she wanted to talk about it during that time and she would tell me whats the point in talking about its not going to change anything this is something I got to get through. I'm making excuses here this is what she was telling me during the two years.
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I'm not sure I understand what your last post is asking.
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What about when she said that she realized that she had been leaving mentally for the last two years. How can she right telling she gave it her all, and then make comment. Then she directs the last two years telling me she feels I did nothing. i would ask her if she wanted to talk about it during that time and she would tell me whats the point in talking about its not going to change anything this is something I got to get through. I'm making excuses here this is what she was telling me during the two years. You haven't done anything for the last two years John. WAKE UP!!! You have been going through the motions and that's it. You have been lying to her and yourself for two years and you still don't see it. Why in the world would she care if you talk to her more or whatever efforts you see yourself doing the past two years if she still knows you aren't telling her the truth? As far a she is concerned you are still lying and therefore everything that comes out your mouth is a lie. She has absolutely no reason to believe anything you say or do. You say you will do anything to save your marriage and help your wife but you are more worried about covering your butt still. I went through the lies and omissions for about 3 months. I can't imagine how mentally draining 2 years can be. You can pat yourself on the back for whatever effort you think you have made in recovering your marriage, but it was all smoke and mirrors. If you don't want to fess up then perhaps divorce is the route to go for you because your wife doesn't deserve this cruelty.
Last edited by black_raven; 08/26/08 12:17 PM. Reason: missing word
BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011
Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.
We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
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I've come to accept the fact I did abandon her emotionally during the two years and i did just want it to go away, but now that she makes this comment, doesnt she have any accountability to the fact that she wasnt completely emotionally committed?
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John
It does not matter what she has or has not done. It doesn’t matter whether she has given 10% or 100% to make the marriage work. Yes, all BS plan to leave, why wouldn’t we? If you want the marriage to work you and only you had better come clean. Listen to Andrew and others here.
ME 55
S 33,31,29,D 19
DDay 9/2005
Continued contact thru 7/06
Contact 12/06 Contact 5/07
Divorced 12/14/09
Married 13 days short of 34 years
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I'm not sure I understand what your last post is asking. He wants to know when we're going to start placing the blame on his BW. johnpc73, your thread is becoming tiring and frustrating. You've been told what you need to do and yet you still haven't done it. You've got plenty of people here who are willing to help you try and recover your marriage and yet you won't LISTEN TO THEM even though their advice is unanimous. Stop going around and around as to why you don't think it's a good idea to tell your BW the whole truth. YOU don't know anything. If you did, maybe your marriage would be recovered and you wouldn't be here asking for help and advice. They people here DO know what they're talking about. They've given you the help and advice you need, so take it and use it already.
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johnpc73
I have been reading this post for a while. Sorry I have not posted.
John you sound like my H. When are you going to wake up! You for a very long time, you did nothing.
Lets see, If you write this letter, you have hope.
If you don’t, there is no hope. Its that simple.
You have been a cheater and a liar for toooooooo long. Your wife knows that. You are treating her like a idiot doormat. Give her the dignity and respect that she deserve.
You have to prove to her, you love her, in love with her, protect her, be totally honest with her, now and forever!
You have done nothing, nothing at all. She waited and waited, you sat there and did nothing.
What did you expect her to do..... She waited for you to GROW UP.
I cannot believe the amount of people here that are giving you great advise. We are here for that reason, because we have been there......
You are going to regret you doing nothing.
You are capable in writing here, why aren't you capable in writing to your wife....
Don't you get it. She still sees you as a cheater and a liar now. That is what you are. You are not protecting her, you are protecting your sorry [censored]. You brushed it under the carpet for 2 years. Guess what it didn't work.
Listen to yourself.
BW 49 (me), WH 46, married 22 years
10/5/2007 found out about the affair
11/3/2007 H moved out
11/20/2007 H moved back in
2/1/2008 H moved out again
3/18/2008 H filed for divorce
6/10/2008 H moved back home
Today-In recovery, but a long road ahead.
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What about when she said that she realized that she had been leaving mentally for the last two years. How can she right telling she gave it her all, and then make comment. Then she directs the last two years telling me she feels I did nothing. i would ask her if she wanted to talk about it during that time and she would tell me whats the point in talking about its not going to change anything this is something I got to get through. I'm making excuses here this is what she was telling me during the two years. I wanted to go back to this and explain something. Your lying put your wife at extreme risk for emotional breakdown. The only possible way to live with a liar and keep some little shred of sanity is to mentally rehearse leaving. I did it every single day. Of course she was mentally leaving you for the last two years-- because you drove her to it. Man up. Stop blaming her for anything. She is not to be blamed here. You want to fix it? Own it. ALL OF IT. Get over the idea that she owes you anything. She does not. You do, however, owe yourself and her a great deal, and it starts with truth.
Chrysalis
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I've come to accept the fact I did abandon her emotionally during the two years and i did just want it to go away, but now that she makes this comment, doesnt she have any accountability to the fact that she wasnt completely emotionally committed? No. Her accountability is not your problem. If she comes here, we can help her, but you are here, and you are the only one we can help. She didn't owe you complete emotional commitment. She still doesn't. She may at some point choose to commit to you again, but you have a lot of work to do. Do you want to save your marriage or not? If you do, you absolutely have to get over the idea that you get to limit your consequences or the amount of work you have to do or how honest you have to be.
Chrysalis
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I know. I'm terrified at what the outcome wil be. I dont want to lose her. I spent the last two years falling in love with all over again, I love her more now than I probably ever did in our relationship. It sucks! And I know it, but it still sucks.
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I know. I'm terrified at what the outcome wil be. I dont want to lose her. I spent the last two years falling in love with all over again, I love her more now than I probably ever did in our relationship. It sucks! And I know it, but it still sucks. "I am terrified at what the outcome will be"-- now these are honest words. The next words need to be "I will do whatever it takes to make the changes I need to make."
Chrysalis
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I know. I'm terrified at what the outcome wil be. I dont want to lose her. I spent the last two years falling in love with all over again, I love her more now than I probably ever did in our relationship. It sucks! And I know it, but it still sucks. She has been emotionally leaving for the last 2 years because you have been LYING to her for 2 years. Even NOW you want to save your own skin an don't CARE about her at all. You're upset that your pet is getting out of her cage. I'd leave you too. If you can't be man enough to take the first step and continue on this tortuous mess of your OWN MAKING then I woulcn't blame your wife for leaving. I'd buy her a taxi fare. You have already lost her John. She's gone. You can turn this around but your weasel words are not going to do it for you.
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
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Alright Andrew I'm going to need your help here,I'm not the best at expressing myself, thats part of reason for the counseling. Here something I've written.
I have been doing an injustice to you the last two years in not being completely honest with you about the affair. I dont want to hurt you anymore than what you are already hurting. I was too ashamed to admit it thinking I was protecting you, but in reality I was only hurting you more. I'm not trying to make excuses, but I feel i owe you the respect of being completely honest with you. At the end of the affair before you had found out, the relationship had become physical. I love you and I'm ashamed and i hate myself for hurting you by trying to protect myself. I'm terrified at the outcome this will cause you to choose, but I will try to accept the decision you make. I do love you, and I'm willing and want to do what ever it takes to make this up to you.I will answer any questions that you may about the affair at anytime without question. Just know that I'm not doing this to hurt you more, but because you deserve to know the truth.
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John,
I am not very good at writing letters myself but as a BW, that is the first genuine thing that you have typed since your first post. I would have been thrilled to get that letter from my WH. Whether it will cut through the grief and despair of two years of lies, I don't know but you will know that you have made the effort.
I don't know if you are a praying man but as a praying woman, know you will be in mine.
God's Blessings,
Say
Me, BW-57
FWH 54
4 kids and 4 grandbabies between us
In recovery since D-day, May 28,2007
FWH never onboard the MB boat but still clinging to the side.
One day at a time by God's grace.
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Dear xxxx,
I have been doing an injustice to you over the last two years by not being completely honest with you about the affair. I told myself the whole truth would only hurt you more, but in reality, I was just protecting myself and trying to avoid the consequences of my affair. I convinced myself that I was committed to recovery, but I see now what you saw then. I see how far short I fell of your expectations. You were good enough to offer me another chance and gave me 2 more years of your life, and I repaid that gift with further dishonesty. I cannot express how ashamed I am that I have caused you this pain.
I owe you the respect of being completely honest with you. At the end of the affair before you had found out, the relationship had become physical. It is your choice to decide how much or how little you want to know, and although it may not mean much, I promise that I will answer any question you have without hesitation or reservation. I love you and I'm ashamed and I hate myself for hurting you by trying to protect myself.
I'm terrified at the outcome this will cause you to choose, because above all I don't want to lose you. I will accept whatever decision you make, and if you choose divorce, I will help make it as easy as possible. I do love you, and I'm willing to do whatever it takes to make this up to you. I'm so sorry for what I have done to you. Just please know that I'm not writing this to hurt you more, but because you deserve to know the truth.
Love,
xxxx You wrote a good letter John. I made a few small wording and formatting changes. Maybe some other members will chime in with their thoughts.
Last edited by andrew3; 08/27/08 07:51 AM.
ex-WW had 2 PAs in first 2 years. Buh-bye.
Divorce finalized: 1/28/09
Now just living and loving again.
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I appreciate your help Andrew. I'm very scared to do this. Like tou said it will either be the final nail in the coffin or it willhelp her heal and she will want to give this a third chance as she likes to put it.
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John, please let us know how it goes. You are taking the first steps to making this as right as you can.
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I dont feel very good about the outcome, she's already told me that she has alot resentment and bitterness from the last two years. She told me how that she was sorry that this had blindsided me and I thought we were getting better, but that she cant help feel like this is a little vindication for how I blindsided her two years ago with the affair but mine was worse. It's when she says things like that make me believe that its the anger that has been talking and not really her. If that makes any sense.
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You will face resentment for a while. Have you read up on meeting her emotional needs on this site? There is a great deal of excellent information. The more you can do to meet her emotional needs (openness and honesty is a big one for most betrayed spouses) in the ways that are meaningful to her, the better your chances are.
Chrysalis
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Which of the ten listed do I need to read up on. All of them?
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Which of the ten listed do I need to read up on. All of them? Do you have any idea which ones are most important to her of the 10? Start with those. For many women it includes conversation, affection, domestic support--- what has she asked you to do in your relationship that you have felt was unnatural for you? Often that will point to a big emotional need that you can learn to meet. The cool thing is that we can all learn to meet our spouse's needs better.
Chrysalis
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When do you plan to give her the letter? Don't put this off.
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I wont see her again until sunday. i'll give it to her then. Well she's been saying that I abdandoned her emotionally the last 2 years and i havent been giving her the attention that she needed.
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I wont see her again until sunday. i'll give it to her then. Maybe some other members can chime in here, but I don't know if literally handing it to her is a good idea. It kind of puts her on the spot if she decides to open it right then. You know her best though. Your call. Well she's been saying that I abdandoned her emotionally the last 2 years and i havent been giving her the attention that she needed. How do you respond to these statements by her? Can you guess what her top ENs are? Don't ask her, just start doing what you can to meet these needs without making a huge show of it.
ex-WW had 2 PAs in first 2 years. Buh-bye.
Divorce finalized: 1/28/09
Now just living and loving again.
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I saw a therapist today. Don't know if I learned anything new or if she just reitterated the situation. I hope the therapy and this website can both be beneficial and not cross contaminate each other.
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My co-worker told me last night that sometimes I talk to people in a condensaying manner. I didnt quite know what that meant, she basically said that I talk to people like they 're dumb. I felt so bad when I heard this. One because I have never been told about this, and two that I have probably, no definitley been talking to my wife like this for the past nine years. This is what she meant when she said she felt like she had to walk on eggshells around me. Thats a horrible feeling to have, she probably didnt even want to come sometimes. She said this was one of the added things that brought her to want a separation. For nine years I was constantly withdrawing love units and not even knowing it. How do I stop myself when I dont know Im doing it until its too late.
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John, print out 2 copies of the Emotional Needs Questionnaire on this site. You might consider telling your wife just what you wrote here-- that you realize how wrong you have been in the way you have talked to her-- and want to change the things about yourself that have hurt her. Ask her if she would consider filling one out as a favor to you.
But first, she needs the truth told to her. I think you could have a short conversation with her, tell her you are learning a great deal about how wrong you have been about many things, and want to change. Then give her the letter and tell her she may want to read it privately. If she is receptive to you in the conversation, you might be able to give her the questionnaire at the same time, but that is really a judgment call.
And you should also tell her that you bear all the responsibility for what has gone wrong, and that you know that. That is something my H has done repeatedly. The first 500 times or so I didn't much trust what he was saying, but now it gives me great comfort.
Her initial reaction is likely to be very upset, but this can often change over time. Be persistent in learning and doing everything you possibly can to change your behavior. Be persistent in trying to demonstrate loving and humble behavior. Do not give up hope too easily.
Chrysalis
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I do plan on telling her when I see her this weekend. I dont think that she will do the questionaire. I was talking with my therapist and she was saying that she was in a sort of payback mode and that she is not going to be receptive to anything right now. She says she wants to see me hurt just like she has been hurting for the last two years and that I gotta take it right now because its just deserved. I just wish she would believe that counseling could be helpful, but she's basing everything on the last experience we had with counseling and she wont listen to anything right now. Maybe in time.
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Any suggestions on how to lift youself out of a depressing funk?
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John, Some depression is a normal part of remorse, I think. Dr. Harley suggests that for a period of time when this is all new, both spouses often benefit from anti-depressants. If you are feeling really crummy, you should talk to your doctor about this.
I also think taking positive action will help. What good things can you do to benefit your wife today?
Chrysalis
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therapist suggested i minimize communication to two to three times a week and when i do make sure she knows I love her and that I'm here if she needs me, but also to make sure she knows that I'm hurting. She believes she is in a payback mode and wants to see me hurt the way she's been hurting for the last two years.She doesnt want me to seem to needy.
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You think thats some decent advice?
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Hard to say, not really knowing you or your W, but it makes some sense. However, it doesn't really speak to your depression. It also doesn't give you a plan of action.
I would like you to do some serious reading on Emotional Needs and Plan A on this site. Plan A is usually applied to the betrayed spouse, but right now you are the one who wants to save the M, you are the one who is here, and you are the one who can work on yourself to help things get better.
Plan A is a plan of making yourself into a better H and showing your W that you can and will meet her emotional needs.
Read, read read the articles, think hard and long, and come back and talk to us.
But don't waver about giving her that letter.
Chrysalis
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I have been reading how to survive an affair. Can you really apply plan A to my situation? Me and my therapist are working on me becoming a better husband and the issues that I have. I havent seen her in person since I have been going to the therapist. I plan on telling her about my sessions and what we talk about when I see her this weekend. I think the depression I felt today came from pure lonliness, being in the house by myself with all the memories and pictures. I guess it got to me. I had been doing pretty well all week up until this afternoon. I didnt have anyone to talk to everyone was at work. It started to build up inside, but I finally got ahold of my mother and I unloaded on her and now I feel better,plus i have my son for a couple of days. She's not willing to spend any time with me right now so its hard to try to meet any of her emotional needs. The only real way she will respond to me is through texting, and she only gives quick answers. If I ask how her day was at work, she will answer "fine." But will never go into any detail.
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John,
How are you today? Did you give your wife the letter? How did it go seeing her yesterday?
Chrysalis
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John, Haven't followed your situation much at all. I just clicked on it after I saw Chrysalis post on it, but I thought I'd maybe have something to offer you. There is a movie coming out later this month called Fireproof. It's by the people that made "Facing the Giants" which if you haven't seen rent it ASAP. These are faith-based Christian movie's that made it mainstream. "Fireproof" is about saving a trouble disconnected marriage. The website is www.fireproofthemovie.comAsk your wife to go. You MAY want to order tickets to it early on-line as the churches may sell out the first few days/weeks in your area. If she won't go...go yourself, it looks like it's going to be great. Mr. Wondering
FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered
"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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John,
How have things been going?
ex-WW had 2 PAs in first 2 years. Buh-bye.
Divorce finalized: 1/28/09
Now just living and loving again.
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My wife isnt talking to me right now. Therapist wasnt 1oo% with me giving the letter, but I didnt it anyways based on what you all said. Now i'm second guessing what you said. Therapist thought I should of waited until she actually asked, like when she was ready to try therapy. I might have really lost her for good now.
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John,
What do you mean she is not talking to you? Is she hanging up on you? Did she say she didn't want to talk to you?
Even if she will not speak with you, you can keep trying. You can give her another letter, this time saying that you are prepared to do whatever it takes to build the marriage she deserved all along. And tell her you want her to come home and be a family together.
Telling her the truth did not drive her away. The previous lies and selfishness on your part did. You took a big step towards becoming the kind of man you want to be by telling the truth.
My marriage only started to heal after my H took full responsibility for nuking it. There are no guarantees, and never were, that your wife will be willing to give you another chance, but you can control your actions and choices from here on-- and you should always choose integrity and respect.
Chrysalis
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My wife isnt talking to me right now. Therapist wasnt 1oo% with me giving the letter, but I didnt it anyways based on what you all said. Now i'm second guessing what you said. Therapist thought I should of waited until she actually asked, like when she was ready to try therapy. I might have really lost her for good now. I would be very wary of any therapist that counseled you to withhold the truth from your wife. Hadn't your wife been asking you for the truth for the last 2 years? Recovery is impossible without honesty. Giving her the letter was probably the first act of respect and care that you have given her in a long time. We told you that it may be the final nail so to speak, but that was not your choice to make. Trying to win someone back with dishonesty and manipulation is the antithesis of love. Regardless of whether or not you can recover your marriage, giving her the letter marked the first step of your journey back to honesty and integrity. Your wife will remember that.
ex-WW had 2 PAs in first 2 years. Buh-bye.
Divorce finalized: 1/28/09
Now just living and loving again.
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You keep saying she was asking but she didnt it was a comment that she had made once in thelasttwoyearsthatswhy the therapist said what she did,not because she didnt want me to tellher, she wanted it be a different time to bring that all up. she know its the act itself that she having a hard time withthe affair itself and me not being there emotionally and leaving
herto figure it out on her own. These are words she said herself to me so I'm not assuming anything here. She told me she was bitter and resentful for how I wasnt there for her the last two years and that she was sorry that this blindsided me but that she cant help but think that this was a little retribution for the way I blindsided her with the affair only what i did to her was worse. You know only up to a couple of weeks before she left she was already planning when to get pregnant with our second child. When someone is saying things like that youre not necessarily thinking something is wrong with the relationship. This is what i mean about our issue with communicating with each other, only talk about the good never dicuss the bad, and apparently there is alot of bad.
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she's upset with me not being straight with her and she doesnt want to speak with me right now. I've already told her that in letter already. The therapist thinks that she is scared try again right now because she afraid of trying again and then being hurt again, she's afraid to trust me because i already abandoned her once and she afraid I'll do it again. So she's not being receptive to any kind of recovery right now, therapy or this website.
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You keep saying she was asking but she didnt it was a comment that she had made once in thelasttwoyearsthatswhy the therapist said what she did,not because she didnt want me to tellher, she wanted it be a different time to bring that all up. she know its the act itself that she having a hard time withthe affair itself and me not being there emotionally and leaving
herto figure it out on her own. These are words she said herself to me so I'm not assuming anything here. She told me she was bitter and resentful for how I wasnt there for her the last two years and that she was sorry that this blindsided me but that she cant help but think that this was a little retribution for the way I blindsided her with the affair only what i did to her was worse. You know only up to a couple of weeks before she left she was already planning when to get pregnant with our second child. When someone is saying things like that youre not necessarily thinking something is wrong with the relationship. This is what i mean about our issue with communicating with each other, only talk about the good never dicuss the bad, and apparently there is alot of bad. She was asking. She may have stopped verbally asking after being lied to for so long, but she was asking. Don't you ever wish your partner could just read your mind and know what you want without having to say a word? You've already said she is not a good communicator. If she wanted out she could have left a long time ago but for some reason she stayed even though she struggled. Her actions look like they were crying out to you and you continued to withhold what she wanted...the truth. I would image that the length of time the lies or omission of the truth went on just wore her down. She was planning to get pregnant just weeks ago and then left. Maybe she didn't want to compound the problem with another child. I don't know, but it seems like you expect her to coming running back to you. It is very hard for me to recover from months of lies; I can't imagine years. Give her some time and don't give up hope just yet.
BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011
Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.
We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
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I definitley dont expect her to come running back to me. If I were her I would be doing the same thing. I would want to see her make the effort for the marriage and see that she is serious about wanting to change. I havent given up. I'm just so antsy about having all this information from this website and the therapist that I want to shower her with it but i cant and thats frustrating.
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John,
Are you still here? What's happening with you? I've been following your story and hoping for the best.
Have you had any reaction from your wife to your letter, finally telling her the truth?
RHW
Me BS 61
Him FWS 63
Married 40 years
D-Day 6/30/06
Still can't believe it.
6/08 Recovering nicely. Anything is possible!
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It has been awhile. I have been seeing a therapist alone, and I thought i was making progress with my wife but it looks liks things arent getting but not really getting worse. I dont really know what to make of things. I could use some helpful advise. We had a long talk on saturday, and to give you the cliff note version. She said i needed to treat the situation like we were going through with the divorce and that i neede to look at it like we were two single people because that was what she was doing. She said she has gone on a couple of dates. That hurt to hear. She was also saying that she couldnt be in a marriage that had an affair and that she didnt look at me the same way. That the marriage we had before was what she wanted. She then went on to say that at first it was easy for her. She was having fun going out and having a good time and everything was easy. Then about two weeks ago she said it hit her and she started to feel confused and unsure what to do. She didnt know if it was that she starting to miss me or the familiarity of the relationaship and being a wife and mother. She is having a hard time, but she knew right she doesnt want to come back to the marriage. She wondered if that she got together with me at young of an ageand she wondering if she missed out on going out. I told her that we never regulated each other from going out with or without each other. Then she said it felt it was more like the last two years. She also wants to make the right decision her and our son. She doesnt want to decide on anything that she would be able to take back. But then she goes and says that she is willing to make a decision and if it is the wrong one she is willing to live with the regret of this marrige. Overall I asked her what are you trying to tell me? She said I am not ready to make any decision that i cant take back. I need more time but I dont know how much. So she leaves and gives me a long hug. I even released pressure twice to let go but she hung and then she finally. So I wondered if I just got the kiss of death with that hug or that she still cares about me and the relationship. I left that conversation even more confused than when I went into it. I would appreciate any helpful information.
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John,
Um, now it sounds like SHE is caught in affair fog babble. "Gone out on a couple of dates" could easily be code for "involved with someone else." The "confusion" she speaks of. Not wanting to make a decision (cake eating).
Anybody else seeing revenge affair?
Hope vets with this kind of experience will jump in.
RHW
Me BS 61
Him FWS 63
Married 40 years
D-Day 6/30/06
Still can't believe it.
6/08 Recovering nicely. Anything is possible!
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No, I asked point blank if it was someone i knew and she said it wasnt any one person, just went on some dates, and if it is revenge affair, fine get it out your system and lets move on. I definitely think she does want her cake and eat it too. I think she has the right fot now. I did cause her alot of pain, but for how do I let her have her cake before I say she needs to make some kind of a decision. Its been two months so far since she has left. Do I give her another month or longer, or what?
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John,
How many times did SHE ask YOU "point blank" questions about what was going on? Sorry, she sounds foggy as h*** to me.
You do NOT need a revenge affair complicating all this. It wouldn't "even the score" so much as mess things up further. To say nothing of dragging things out over much more time. Why would that be OK with you?
Hoping someone else will jump in here and add something because my only advice to you in the moment would be to do some serious checking and verify what's she's telling you about there being no one else. John: PEOPLE HAVING AFFAIRS LIE. Remember?
RHW
Me BS 61
Him FWS 63
Married 40 years
D-Day 6/30/06
Still can't believe it.
6/08 Recovering nicely. Anything is possible!
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Can you get your BW to have at least one phone session with the Harley's?
It appears that she is trying to make you jealous, cause you pain, having an affair. It could be any combination of these three and who knows what else.
Have you been plan A'ing her?
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She told me that she was dating. I asked who was it? Was it Greg? She said no, it wasnt any one person, that she had gone on dates. When she confronted me the first time I did tell her. I dont think she hiding anything, if she was dating someone and this was truly over that would be the way to get to believe we wer through. I agree she is foggy and she told me she was. One more month would be three months that shes gone and i dont know if thats giving her enough time to think and that maybe I should start to move on mentally. I need to be refreshed but dont remember what paln A is and would that apply to this situation where i was the who cheated?
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Neither an affair nor revenge affair is OK. OK!
Save the marriage if you can, but she DOES have the right to tell you to beat it.
But I, being poor, have only my dreams; I have spread my dreams under your feet; Tread softly because you tread on my dreams -Yeats
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After finding out what plan A is, yes I have been plan A ing her. I have been respectful to her, dont start any outbursts and I have been patient and have given her the time that she has asked for. I feel though that I am getting close to that time where its time for me to start moving on at least mentally. I cant continue to beat myself up for what I did, and I cant keep letting her throw it in my face.
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