Long story but I will try to condense it.

Been together 8 years, married for 5.
Im 31, shes 29.
We have a 2 year old daughter

Around the time our daughter was born we really started having problems. I am not the kind of guy that is good with babies. My wife did a lot on her own with the baby and feels like I didnt do enough to support her. She carries this anger towards me to this day. This is one of many things she claims she cant get over and move past.

I am a provider. I make a very large income and she makes very little. Im the first to admit im not a great emotional supporter. My wife is very emotional and relies heavily on her mom and sister as her "support group". They both dislike me and always have.

Around the time our daughter was born my wife had very bad PPD. Was medicated for it and weened off the medication. Im not convinced she ever fully came out of that depression. Anywa around that time our sex life flatlined. Zero sex for almost a full year. I have always had a fantasy of a 3some with my wife and another guy. She liked this idea also and long story short, i let her sleep with her ex one time. She said it was awful, she felt used, etc. it didnt turn out at all like we thought it would. However our sex life picked up after that.

We bought a new house about 6 months ago and moved in. Ever since we moved in she has been distant and cold towards me. Our sex life flatlined again around this time. I managed to talk her into it a couple times. The last time was about a month ago and when we finished she started crying. I couldnt get her to tell me why she was crying. She dismissed it as hormones/emotions from her recent cycle.

We have had some heated arguments in the last 6 months and at some point about 5 weeks ago she went to see an atty for divorce consultation. She didnt tell me at the time she had done this, but a friend of mine works in the same building as the atty firm she consulted with. He saw her car in the parking lot and saw her in the lobby of the attys office and notified me.

I didnt tell her that i knew, but asked her if she would go to marriage counseling. She agreed and we have been weekly for 5 weeks now. She has been telling the counselor she wants to work on our marriage, but i know shes talking with this atty. My spider senses are screaming this is BS, theres more to this story than she is telling me. I have a feeling she is emotionally, if not physically cheating with her ex. I have no proof and need to know whats going on so i put a GPS on her car. A week goes by and she finds the GPS. She comes unglued at me and says she is done and wants a divorce. That gets us to now pretty much. She hasnt moved out but we barely speak to each other. She has slammed the door on me emotionally and there doesnt appear to be any way to open it.

Any advice is welcome!

Thanks

Welcome to MB.

You need to get spyware installed on her devices. Can you at least check online phone records to see who she is talking to?

I have access to phone recordsand have been watching them closely, but she uses imessage religiously which dont show up on a phone bill.

The only device she hs is her iphone. No ipad or laptop. The iphone is not password protected. I could grab it in the middle of the night but she has her instagram/facebook notifications turned on, so i would be clearing those notifications by opening her phone and she would find out when she looks at her phone in the am.

Then put spyware on her phone when you can get her phone. A spyware that can show you all her activity.

Im completely un-tech savvy. Wouldnt know where to start with spyware

At this point, no one has filed for divorce. I have contacted the district court to confirm.

We are currently still living together. No one has moved out (yet).

I have asked her if she would consider reconciliation and wrote her a very humble letter, falling on the sword and owning a good portion (but not all) of the problems in our marriage. She read it but did not respond. We are trying to sell our house right now, and I have a feeling the day it sells she will bolt and file. Im hurting bad but also trying to make decisions with a clear head and trying to be logical. At first she told me she was done and wanted to immediately start talking about division of assets, "where do we go from here, what do we do now, i need a new car and cant afford one by myself, i need you to help me leave you" type talk. I didnt respond to any of it. Arkansas is not a "no fault" divorce state. Irreconcilable differences dont count as grounds for divorce. You have to claim abuse, infertility, indignities, abandonment, or have been physically separated for at least 18 months. This is not a divorce that will be over anytime soon if thats what she is hoping. So i didnt even bother responding to that. It felt like a knee jerk on her part because she was so pissed off about finding the gps on her car.

I have been avoiding relationship talk with her for about a week. Not pressing the issue. Trying to give her emotional space to cool off, calm down, and come back to the discussion table. We have been texting about non-marriage/non-relationship topics but she is short and brief with what she has to say. I understand she is angry but im having trouble figuring out if her emotional state is because of me or because of another guy or some combo of the two.

Hi Winslow, welcome to Marriage Builders. You MUST spy on her and get the evidence. We cannot help you move forward unless you do this. The reason is because it is the key to saving your marriage. You must bust up the affair and the only way to do that is to get the evidence and expose it.

Can you hire a PI?

I can hire a P.I. but im not sure what good he would do. I feel like I know where she is 24/7. If shes not at home she is at work or has our daughter with her doing something. Not sure when exactly she would have time for a physical relationship. She hasnt been staying out late or anything lately.

People can be inventive in carrying out affairs and hiding the proof from their spouses. Contact can be kept up by secret phones, hidden email accounts, all kinds of ways. Cheating doesn't have to be 100% physical. Waywards can be cheating emotionally.

Unless you are with her 24/7 there are a million opportunities. She could have him in your home or go to his home. Your daughter is only 2, so its not like she couldn't carry on an affair with her around. You should hire a PI to tail her and ALSO place some voice activated recorders where she might use the phone, such as in her car or your house. You should also look around for a secret cell phone.

Do you want to save this? You need to step it up - and FAST - and get the evidence. Getting the evidence is the KEY to saving this.

Go to Radio Shack and buy some little voice activated recorders along with some velcro strips. Hide one under her car seat. OR ask the PI to do this. Work together with a good PI to get the goods.

Another thing you can do is grab her phone and read through it. I don't understand your reluctance to snoop on her. Of course you don't want to get caught, but getting caught is no great disaster, you just try another way. You have a RIGHT to know everything your wife does and it is clear she has something to hide. Its not like you are doing something wrong.

*MOST* cheating spouses don't stay out late because it would draw attention from their spouse. They are extremely clever in covering their tracks by meeting their lover at work, hotels, their own homes. It is common for them to take off work and meet their affair partner someplace. Even the dumbest cheater can conduct an affair without staying out late at night.

We had one such cheater who was crippled in a wheelchair and couldn't even drive. His wife dropped him off at work every day and picked him up. He had an affair at work for years!

Do you have her iTunes password? If so, get Wondershare from Dr. Fone. That will allow you to download her iMessage history, including deleted messages (within a certain time frame).

Turn of events. She came home this morning from spending the weekend at her moms with our daughter and she was 100% normal. Acting like everything is fine. Talking to me. Halfass flirting with me. 100% back to her normal self. I have a feeling when our kid goes to bed she will be chasing my zipper. How do I play this? Is this fake or a hormone swing? What the f is happening here??

Did you read our posts?

you said earilier:

And now you tell us she spent the weekend away from you! huh?

I have read everything posted. I intend to get a VAR and put it in her car. I also intend to get a diffrent style gps and put it under the car somewhere she will never find.

As far as spending the weekend away from me I literally know everywhere she was the entire weekend. She never left her parents house which is 3 hours from here.. They had their annual 4th of july cookout with her family and grandparents. She never left the house except to come home this am. Also, the suspected OM was at his house here in town this weekend. I even drove by his house to check/calm my nerves. Nothing suspicious went down this weekend.

How do i play this, short term? As in tonight when she wants sex and to emotionally reconnect? Is this a scam? Seems to good to be true.

Good!



HOW do you know?

You should be kind, polite and accommodating.

Im so lost and confused. No sex last night but we had a good day and went to bed in a good mood. Today was polar opposite. When she came home from work at 3 to change and go to the gym she was 99% b*tch 1% water. I got suspicious and followed her to the gym. She was there for an hour and then went to pick our daughter up from daycare. Suspected OM vehicle was not in the parking lot. She came home still 99% b*tch 1% water. Has had a cold look on her face all night, wont hardly look at me, giving me the cold shoulder, etc.

I dont understand what happened overnight last night. This is crazy

None of this is confusing to us. It is just a distraction to following the plan we outlined. You need to understand that her mentality is that of a falling down drunk as long as her affair is active. It is an addiction just like alcohol addiction. Her moods will swing wildly up and down. Your best plan is to ignore it and focus entirely on your plan.

You should be 100% focused on getting the evidence of the affair so we can help you save your marriage. how is that coming along?

I cant find a P.I in this area. I put a VAR in her car tonight. I havent had a chance to get her phone long enough to go through it. I have nothing at this point but a hunch. I have been keeping an eye on suspected OM's house at times when she isnt home. Nothing so far. She just took a shower and went upstairs and text me to tell me she is sleeping in the upstairs bedroom tonight. This hurts

Keep at it!! That is a great start. Another thing you will want to get is a semen test kit: here you just have to get ahold of her underwear to conduct the test.

Im honestly not convinced of an ongoing affair. She seems to resent me about letting her sleep with her ex. Thats one of the big things she is telling me she cant forgive me for. I put pressure on her and she hates me for it.

This is why you need to get the evidence. You shouldn't be convinced of anything without evidence.


As she should. That was a disgusting, uncaring thing to do. But it doesn't lead to a divorce.

We can help you, but you need to put aside your own biases and find out what is going on here. On a FACTUAL basis, rather than a speculative one.

I dont know that I have enough time. If there really isnt an affair and she is just broken emotionally, i could sit around trying to find evidence of an affair that doesnt exist while not addressing the issues she is presenting me with. Right now I have no evidence of an affair and a long list of things that have led up to this point. Why shouldnt I address what she is feeding me meanwhile setting my traps to discover an affair if there is one?

You should do both. It is good to address her issues, but you need to - PRONTO - get evidence of the affair. There is every sign of an affair here, but in order to turn this around, you need the hard evidence. You say "right now I have no evidence" and we realize this. This is why we are telling you to get evidence. The longer it goes on, the harder it will be to save this.

Ok. Well i am doing everything I am capable of to get evidence of an affair. In the mean time what do I do?

Our text messsages tonight:

Me- I really want to talk to you and find out what you are feeling. I felt like we had a good day yesterday and im trying to figure out what happened since then. I can tell you have something on your mind. I dont want to pressure you but im ready to listen when you want to talk.

Her- I told you i wanted a divorce and you asked if we could separate instead. And neither has happened. I feel like you are trying to sweep this under the rug and move on. And I just can't do that. I don't trust anything anymore. I can't even enjoy you helping with {daughter} bc I'm trying to find your motive. That's just the truth. Sorry if it hurts.

Me- Im honestly not trying to sweep anything. Im just working on being a better husband and dad. I dont want to sweep anything under the rug. Im begging you to consider working with me on our marriage and give it another chance. I asked if you wanted to try separation instead of divorce and you said you would think about it, so i havent pressed you for an answer. I figured you would decide when you were ready. I want you to take all the time you need. I love you and I want to find love, trust, and respect with you again. You mean the world to me {wifes name} and I am fighting for us because I believe in it. I believe in you. And i want to be a family.

Her- I just feel like this is the same thing over and over again. And I'm tired. And I don't know if I can do it anymore. Or if I want to. And if we separate where are you going to go? I can't go anywhere right now. There are a thousand things going through my mind.

Me- If you want my motive, its blind faith. Im working on improving myself to be the husband you deserve and the father {daughter} deserves. I have been neither and thats come to an end. Im turning a page in life and embracing the blessings I have.
You dont have to do much except sit back and watch. You are already an awesome mother and a beautiful person. Everything I want in a woman is right here in front of me trying to walk out because I have taken it for granted. It kills me. I want you to be around to see me for who I am becoming. If we split up you wont be around to see it.

Her- But this is still about you. And that's what I'm irritated about. I appreciate the changes you are making. But I'm waiting for things to not go your way, you snap, everything is my fault and you get pissed. I don't want you to do these things for me. They should be for you. What is in your mind for separation?

Me- Im sorry if im making it sound like its about me. Its not. Your feelings and needs are equally important to mine. Im just saying i cant show you the husband you deserve if you arent around to see it. Everything else is just on me. Im not saying separation is the only alternative to divorce. There may be other ways to work through this. I want you to know I am committed to you and to our marriage 100%. I have more work to do than you do. Thats why it sounds like this is about me. In my mind a separation is about cooling off and clearing our heads about our marriage. Going to counseling together weekly to discuss things. Keeping open lines of communication, not seeing other people, and having the goal of coming back together.

Her- I don't know if I want that. I just know that living together right now is hard for me. You keep asking me what's wrong and that's what it is. There, I said it.

Me- {wifes name} I know you are broken. I know you are tired. I know you are exhausted. I know you are hurt. I should never have tracked your car. I should never have asked you to sleep with {ex bf}. I should never have gotten upset about keeping our daughter while you go out with your friends. I could make a list a mile long. Im so so so sorry. Thats all in the past. My promises may seem empty right now but in time you will see. I promise to never hurt you again. I love you so much this is destroying me inside.

No reply. She went to bed.

First off, you can stop with the relationship talks and focus on being as pleasant and inviting as possible. The conversation you tried to have above was very futile and unpleasant. It only pushed her away. Simply let her know you love her, be as attractive as possible and don't try to force any deep relationship talks. It just makes you look bad. Don't try to reason with her, just be pleasant and inviting.

Do you have an anger problem?


Hopefully you understand this was the wrong thing to say? There is nothing wrong with tracking her car. Don't say that now, but in the future you should know it is not appropriate to apologize for snooping on spouse who is obviously hiding something. That is out of line.

You might find this thread very helpful: here If you can follow a plan you can likely end up like him.

I would let her know you are not interested in divorce OR "separation." You can't claim to be fighting for your marriage and say you will agree to "separate." That is not logically consistent. The best stance is to just to say you don't want either, you want to work on your marriage.

Pleasant and inviting has been my strategy for the past couple weeks. Im hearing her say she questions my motive for this transformation and doesnt put any stock in it. This really is the first "relationship talk" we have had since she asked for a divorce 2 weeks ago and we had some dialogue at that time about the state of our marriage. Ever since then i have made an honest and conscious effort to be as positive, optimistic, easy going, helpful, and happy as possible. Have not brought up feelings or relationship once until tonight and it obviously didnt go well.

Honestly this is good advice. My suggestion to separate was my initial response to her asking for divorce. Its not what I want but its a compromise and in my mind buys time to let cooler heads prevail. I dont want a separation. I want to work on our marriage under the same roof as a married couple. But she may think i want to separate now because I suggested it. Will clarify this with her tomorrow. Any suggestions on how to pitch that?

Edit: she told me in the texts tonight that living together right now is hard. She mentioned she wanted a divorce and i wanted separation and neither has happened. If she wants a divorce she can file. Im not going to do it for her and make it easy. Its not what I want. Neither is separation. Im leaving this ball in her court fully expecting her to file for divorce at this point.

You have the right idea! Focus on a) being as pleasant as possible and b) snooping like a blood hound to get evidence of her affair. I know you don't want to believe it but she is having an affair. Getting that evidence is the first step in saving your marriage. Go read that thread I linked and you can see how it works.

Do you have the book Surviving an Affair? If not, you can download it and read it on your computer or phone. It will help you understand the dynamics of what is happening here.

The best way is to tell her you have been doing a lot of thinking and have decided you don't want to separate or divorce. You will stay and work on your marriage. Tell her If she wants to move out, you can't stop her, but you are only interested in recovering your marriage.

I dont have the book but feel like i have read it already by reading all the threads on this forum. I have poured over her phone records and see no contact with the OM in several months. She deleted her texts with him on her phone. She changed her FB password recently and i havent had any luck guessing at it. I am not being naieve when I say i dont think she is currently cheating, but i wouldnt be at all surprised if the grass appears greener due to the past relationship and the goings on that they have had since we have been married.

Edit: they go to the same gym. He wasnt there today when she was, but that doesnt mean much. She does hair for a living and her schedule is spotty during the day. Assuming she is having an affair AND assuming its with the one guy i have in mind, he works for the school district, not sure of his position or wether he is off all summer like a teacher or not.

Ok, you need to get the book. You can't understand the program just from reading threads.

And yes you are being naive when you say you don't think she is cheating, since it is based on pure blind speculation. Just know this can't go forward until you do some real Intel and get the evidence. If she deleted texts, they can be retrieved.

I don't understand why you won't hire a PI. A P.I. Can get everything you need in a couple of days. I am getting the feeling that you are not taking this very seriously.

I have googled P.I's and there are none in my area. We live in a small town.

Just laying here and cant sleep. Thinking about the last time we had sex. It was weak and she wasnt into it, and when we were done she started crying. Feeling guilty about cheating maybe? Why else would someone cry after having sex with your husband of 5 years/lover of 9 years?

Lets say nothing turns up from the VAR. i cant get her texts and no P.I. - What about, as a last resort, confronting her and bluffing that I have evidence.... "Look, {wife's name}, I know you have been having an affair. The tracker was on your car for a long time, you cried after we had sex the last time, and I have tested your underwear, theres nothing else for me to say. You are busted."

Something along that line? Her reaction to that statement will tell me everything i need to know and hopefully get her to confess?

No, don't do this. Most people in affairs when caught redhanded or with solid evidence still try to deny it, so a bluff is unlikely to get a full confession. It is likely to just start an argument and send her affair further underground. You need to get the facts, and they are not going to come from her.

You need to put more thought into how you can install spyware on her phone. I believe you said she leaves it lying around and it is not password protected, which puts you at a huge advantage. Most people who come here are working with phones that are heavily guarded and PW protected, and yet when they put effort into it they are still able to install spyware on it.

It could be with a different OM, don't narrow your search to include just this one OM (for instance, looking at her phone logs only for his number).

I went back 4 months in our phone records. Not one phone call that I couldnt determine who it went to. She calls the same 8-10 people's cell phones. The few land line calls I found were all innocent, brief and no one number repeated more than once.

Same with all her texts. She uses imessage so those dont show on our phone bill, but all sms texts show up. Searching 4 months of those yielded one text to the suspected OM back on april 10. She has since deleted her texts so without the aid of someone tech savvy i have no way of ever seeing them.

I went through her purse last night after she went to bed upstairs. Nothing out of the ordinary. I even went through her wallet looking for names/numbers/biz cards etc. all clear.

I have her old iphone that is deactovated that our daughter watches cartoons and plays games on. Somehow it still syncs with my wifes new phone and shows any calls in out plus i have all her contacts on it. Nothing unusual there that i can find.

IPhones by default keep track of where they go. Look in Settings:Privacy:Location Services:System Services:Frequent Locations and check for possible affair locations.

"Frequent locations" button was off. No dice

I plan to tell her toda that after thinking about it, i dont want a divorce and i dont want to separate. I have every intention of staying in our house and working on our marriage. I cant force her to stay and i cant keep her from leaving if thats what she chooses to do.

Here is whats coming: "i have nowhere to go! I cant afford anything right now!"

how do i play that?

Next time you have the phone, turn it on!

Do you live in a country that has other towns? In my country, we have other towns around us. Do you?


That completely misses the point. You don't need her confession. The point of getting the intel is not to get her to confess, but to provide evidence when you EXPOSE the affair.

GET THE EVIDENCE! Do you want to save your marriage? Then stop messing around and get serious.

"So sorry!"

Why would this be your problem?

Its on now.

I contacted a PI this am from a city 45 mins away. He said he can do gps, follow her, get photo evidence, etc but thats only good if its a regular physical affair. He has no resources to get her texts or anything like that

Good man!! And you can work on getting texts and voice recordings. Another thing I would do is search her car and purse for a secret cell phone. If she is sleeping upstairs, I would put a VAR up there too.

Went thru her purse last night *thoroughly*

All clear.

Will search her car tonight

She could have him listed under someone else's name - i.e. calls to "Jane" are really calls to "John". Do you know that those numbers belong to those people?

She text me just now (our house is for sale)

Her - We need to find a plan for us between now and when the house sells.

I havent replied yet. Anybody want to help me tee this one up?

I hear what you are saying, but I have all these same people in my phone also. They are all legit. We are part of the generation that doesnt really make phone calls to each other. Everybody my age texts. Its almost weird to call someone anymore. Crazy how that happened

I would take the house off the market. Tell her you have changed your mind.

Does she have some other apps on her phone like Whatsapp? That is undetectable on a phone log.

And what texts did she delete?

Is this a good time to let her know I dont want to separate or divorce and im not leaving the house, nor should our daughter? Im staying to work on the marriage and if she wants to leave I cant stop her.

She will probably go ahead and file, get temp custody and have me removed from the house. Thats how I see her reacting to this.

She has every social media you can have. Twitter, instagram, facebook, snapchat, who knows what else. I dont ever have more than 30-45 secs with her phone to look around. Definitely not enough time to steal it and download programs and stuff. The last week or two she has been keeping her phone in her hand 24/7.

I can't imagine that she could get you removed from your own home. That almost never happens. I think it is a good time to tell her that you won't be leaving or cooperating with any separation schemes. Tell her something like this:

"Sally, I have given this much thought and have had a change of heart about separating. I will focus on saving our marriage and am not willing to separate. Because of this, I have changed my mind about selling the house. I love you and want to focus on our marriage. I will be sad if you decide to move out, but I know I can't stop you. all my love, Winslow"

Expect her to FREAK OUT and make many threats to bully you into going along with her plan to destroy your marriage. DO NOT REACT.

Simply tell her you love her and are sorry she is upset, but you won't cooperate with any schemes to break up your marriage or your daughter's family.

This is what I am thinking of sending. Anyone want to critique it?

I was up until 4am last night thinking about what to do right now, and I am going to leave the ball in your court. After thinking about it I dont want a divorce and I dont want to separate. I want to work on our marriage. Im not going to leave. Im 100% committed to this marriage. Separating or divorcing are not going to fix our relationship and neither of those are going to help us raise our daughter. I want to set an example for her that marriage is a committment and it means something. Outside of infidelity or abuse there is nothing that cant be worked out. I want to be her role model for what she should expect from her husband one day. I cant stop you from leaving if thats what you chose to do. And I am not trying to make this about me. This is about us.

This is good, but you need to delete the words I deleted below:


You are not leaving anything in her court. You are taking back control of your life.

She still hasnt given me a decision on wether or not she wanted to separate instead of a divorce. She just keeps asking me "what our plan is"

I would use the phrases that Melody gave you word-for-word. And just keep repeating that same message. Tell her what you are willing to do and don't provide reasons why. Anything short of that just leads to arguments.

But what matters is what YOU have decided. You have decided you want neither. So the ball is not in her court.

Sent. Im scared now

She'll be angry. You stay calm and be very pleasant.

Good job!! Just expect her to FREAK OUT so you won't be surprised.

I would also maneuver the conversation back to taking the house off the market. The house can't be sold without your signature.

Happy Birthday, MrAlias!!

One step at a time. Im spoon feeding this to her instead of throwing the whole pie

NO spoonfeeding. That is not strategic to drag out the bad news. it is better to get this all done in one fell swoop. She is going to be furious that you are interfering with her plans to bust up your marriage so you might as well get it ALL out there NOW. She will be angry so get your money's worth so you can move onto next steps.

10-4

Her reply- So this can be my fault? I'm screaming at the top of my lungs and I feel like you have your hands over my mouth. I'm not happy. I don't think I have anything left to give you. I will move out as soon as my sisters roommate moves if that's what I need to do.

That screams "other guy in the picture" to me

'just know that I would hate to see you go, but you are always welcome here. I will miss you terribly. I love you, Winslow"

Her - I don't want you to touch me. I don't want to laugh at your jokes. I don't want to sleep in the same bed as you. I don't want to do anything with your outside of (daughter). This is where I'm coming from.

Her- Seems like you wanna stay in the house and just party on like no big deal. And there was a time when you said if we split up the only thing that would change would be you would be changing a few more diapers and do your own laundry. (I did say that out of anger)

You have just thrown a huge wrench into fantasy land. There is probably a plan to take the proceeds from the sale of your home and buy/rent a place with the OM. You have ruined that plan. When she sees that her threats and anger won't motivate you to back down she will start second guessing her plans.

ALSO, she can be expected to rewrite history to justify her plan to leave you. For example, she will exaggerate the problems in the marriage to keep you off balance. When she does that, respond with

"I know l made alot of terrible mistakes. I am sorry I made you unhappy. I am willing to change all the things that made you unhappy. I want us to be happy together. I want us to raise our daughter together in a happy, in tact home."

Be humble, kind and demonstrate a willingness to eliminate the offensive behavior. Be a broken record and continually tell her you want to create a happy, loving marriage.

She is flying off the handle. What do i say?

"I know l made alot of terrible mistakes. I am sorry I made you unhappy. I am willing to change all the things that made you unhappy. I want us to be happy together. I want us to raise our daughter together in a happy, in tact home."

And then stop responding.

Her - You don't get to control everything. I'm so mad at you. And you say "I will seriously miss you". You probably need to find a place to stay until I can move out.

She is trying to control you!! See how irrational cheaters are?

Her anger tells me everything I need to know about wether or not she is cheating. An exhausted non-cheater would not be blowing up mad over my responses.

Her - But this isn't just about (daughter). She will grow up and move out some day. And we will be left with each other. You sound like a broken record. I have no reason to believe anything that you are saying to me because we have been here so many times. You are manipulating this and turning it around on me. It's not gonna happen.

Yes, the anger comes from the fact that you are interfering with a powerful fantasy. That fantasy is an affair, I assure you. You can burst that fantasy if you get evidence of the affair. This is why we are pushing you so hard to get evidence.

There is no evidence! I am doing everything suggested to get evidence and finding nothong

What do i say to her last reply?

So, I would just stop texting and when she comes home today, be as pleasant as possible. If she tries to force you out, just let her know you have no reason to go anywhere and will not move out. She asked you to move out until she could move out, and you should not do that. Be firm and don't cooperate with any marriage wrecking ideas.

And DON'T let her bait you into a fight. She will try very hard to bait you into a fight. Don't let her succeed.

Keep trying. You will get it.

Me - Im owning my mistakes. Taking responsibility for the damage i have caused. And i am standing up for our marriage. I understand you are upset and in sorry. I dont want you to leave.

Listen, you are doing GREAT. This is a very tough, volatile situation to manage, but if you have the ability to put aside your emotions and follow a plan, you can make it. You seem to be able to do that, so hang in there and don't let her get you down.

I saw you reading wifedivorcing's thread last night. That was one of the worst cases we have ever had, but you will see how he was able to take action and ended up saving his marriage. You actually have a better chance than him because you have a child together. There are no guarantees, but you have a good chance at saving this.

Your help and support means more to me than u will ever know. Thanks for the fast replies

You are very welcome. I am happy to help someone who can follow a plan!

Im literally shredded inside and doing everything in my power to keep a straight face and a calm demeanor. I can say with all honesty that this hurts worse than facing the death of a loved one.

We understand completely. Just know it won't always be like this.

Should i avoid her tonight? Or is she gonna do that for me? Also what if she leaves and tries to take our daughter?

Don't avoid her. She will probably be angry at you and then will avoid you. Just be calm, polite and don't argue with her. She will try to bait you into a fight and bully you into moving out. Don't fall for it. Be calm but FIRM and do not agree to move out. Even if she calls the police on you, do not leave. You cannot be forced from your home without a court order.

I would ask her to leave your DD with you if she tries to take her, but there is not much you can do if she wants to take your daughter. If she HIDES your DD from you, then you will have to hire an attorney. If she does that, it will be a HUGE legal mistake because that infuriates judges. We had one mother who took her two kids and left town with them. The judge was so angry that he made her go home and pack her things, move out and hand the kids over to the dad. He gave him full custody!

She may try packing and taking the DD as a ploy to get you to move out. Don't fall for it.

Also, keep your phone in your pocket with the recorder turned on when you speak to her. If she makes a false claim against you to the police you will have a recording.

So whats my next move here. I have a feeling she is going to bury this affair to thr point we may never get hard evidence. How can i proceed from here IF that happens?

She just text me "what am i supposed to do?"

Me- i dont want to make decisions for you. I dont want you to go, and I love you

Her - But why don't you want me to go? Aside from (DD)? I just don't understand how you could do the things that you did and then all of the sudden change your mind. I don't trust you. I don't even like you right now.

Me - I understand you are upset and hurt. I understand I contributed to most of it. I love you and I want to be a better man. I have learned the price of my selfishness is something I cant afford to pay. I want to be a loving and supportive husband to you.

Just keep snooping until you get the evidence. Cheaters are always sloppy because they are addicted. In fact, she is probably running to the OM today to cry on his shoulder since you ruined her plans.

I just drove by his house and he was leaving so i followed him. He went to the gym. Wifes car isnt in the parking lot. Sitting here waiting to see if she pulls in.

I think its funny how she keeps telling me she doesnt believe me/doesnt trust me. Im guilty of betraying her trust by putting a gps on her car in hopes that i would find out shes not having an affair. But that makes me the un-trustworthy one? Nah! When i catch them slipping this coin is going to flip. I will hold the scarlett letter in the mean time so its in hand and ready pin at the appropriate time

This is CLASSIC behavior from cheaters. You will see this accusation made over and over again on this forum thousands of times. It is her attempt to keep you off balance and on the defense.

When you do get the goods, come back here and we will give you a very detailed, strategic plan. DON'T accuse her if you get evidence of the affair. We are more strategic than that.

When things calm down and you get a chance to read other threads, you will see that cheaters act very much the same. It is downright shocking.

Just so you know, I am usually not on here all day. I just happen to be on vacation this week.

It sounds like I picked the right week to fix my marriage!

good timing!

edit: nevermind

We have had wayward spouses find this forum by Googling for and finding their text messages. Maybe you should paraphrase? You don't want her finding out your battle strategy at this time.

Have you pulled her credit report? Does she have a separate bank account?

You can save more than 1 number under a name so OM could be saved under Mom for a
All you know.

Good call. I should go back through and edit my text quotes

Well shes home. She folded the laundry and cooked a quick dinner. Seems to be civil but doesnt have much to say. Im letting her cool down before even thinking of trying to talk to her. And even then not going to press relationship/marriage topics. I'd really like to make her feel like we are moving on and everything is on the upswing so she will loosen up with her phone and maybe mis-step on this presumed affair.

Looking at her phone record today she made a 1 min call to her atty this afternoon

Don't let it upset you. Just stick to your plan. If you get served, you can address it at that time. It still doesn't mean the end of your marriage. In the meantime, don't cooperate with any divorce/separation scheme, be as pleasant as possible and snoop like a bloodhound!

Also, carry a VAR with you and place a few in the house.

She is just cold towards me tonight. Not starting fights. Just cold. Still occassionally talking to me about random stuff but completely avoiding the relationship. She is vacuuming the bedroom right now. Stone cold [censored] face.

I dont know how long this will go on but i hate it already.

This will go on for a long time, so you had better buckle up!

How do i play it? Do I start plan A even though i dont have evidence for exposure? this feels stagnant all of a sudden. Any relationship talk or should I leave her hanging? Give me a timeline or something. I have retained the P.I. but im not confident he will catch her prowling. How do i proceed?

She is going to sleep upstairs again tonight. This is probably the new norm at least for now, from the way this feels. I expect her to move out once her sisters roommate moves. Couple weeks out. What do i do in the meantime? If no evodence surfaces what do I do? Twiddle my thumbs and watch her leave?

Also, I feel like I can convince her I am aware of her affair at this point. I can BS pretty good and she is the kind to buckle under pressure. Im thinking she will file for D and I will lose my opportunity to try this. I have a feeling its coming pretty soon and I doubt seriously she will risk hetting caught having a physical affair in the mean time, ergo no evidence to be had between now and then.

Yes, you should stay in Plan A. Plan A is 2-fold: you offer to meet her needs in the future and you expose the affair. You are GETTING the evidence for exposure so that should be soon.


NO relationship talk.

I have been here for 15 years and have observed thousands of cases. I can only think of TWO in that time that couldn't find the evidence.

Actually, I take that back. One of those cases found the evidence after TWO YEARS. It took her two years because she was lazy and eventually it fell in her lap. By then her marriage was destroyed and it was too late.

But you don't NEED to convince her you know. I am not following how you feel this will be beneficial.

At best, bluffing her might get a confession of a "friendship," and that won't do squat for you. She will minimize it to nothing. If you don't have evidence, you just hand her the ability to deny, deny, deny the affair when you expose. Your exposure will be worthless.

Get the evidence!

Until u have evidence strong enough to convince a jury, dont say a word about your suspicions. You dont want to show her your hand.

People in affairs are addicts. She will slip up.

I hear you. Im just planning ahead for the likely scenario when no real evidence turns up and she files for divorce and moves out. At that point I am fast losing time to bust her and she is smart enough to put the brakes on her affair long enough to get through the divorce without egg on her face.

It makes sense to, at some point, put up a big bluff im hopes she will cave. A guilty conscience is a weapon in itself.

Have you looked at operation investigate? I recommend hiring a PI if you can. Youwill likely have evidence in a few days.

I am planning ahead that you will get the evidence to expose the affair.


An affairee does not put the brakes on the affair. That is like imagining a heroin addict or an alcoholic will "put the brakes on" the drinking when they are under scrutiny. They are sloppy and careless.


This will not help you in any way. You might be able to force a halfassed "confession" of "something" but when you go to expose she will deny it all.

So that begs the question, how do i proceed if nothing turns up? Mentally i need to have all my bases covered. Im not looking for another way to skin this cat. I fully understand the power of exposure but what if that option doesnt present itself for me in time. What is the backup plan? Im hearing you all say if I dont have a damning text or picture then I need to avoid the topic of infidilety alltogether. So what do I do if proof doesnt surface? Walk away and say oh well?

I have retained a P.I. but he can not help me with discovering an EA. he can only provide evidence of a PA, which, if you knew her schedule you would understand she has very few gaps in time in her day to day life to conduct such a thing. Im not dismising an EA at all but a P.I. is of no help in discovering an EA

Are you French? I don't think I have ever seen someone who was so anxious to surrender.. If no evidence, then no exposure and I would render this hopeless. Nothing we can do for you.

We didnt ask you get a "damning text or picture." We asked you to get evidence of an affair.

I mentioned to her just now before she went to bed that at some point I would like to open up a line of communication with her that is reasonable and not emotional. She flipped out. Said theres nothing to talk about. "Communicate about what?" Gave me a cold look and then stomped off to bed.

Ok so without cold hard proof of an affair this whole thing is doomed. Why go down with the ship when I could at least jump onto a piece of driftwood that may sink anyway, or it might save me? I dont understand the logic

WHY?? WHAT?? Didn't we tell you not to do that? If she was falling down drunk would you try to "open up a line of communication??" Wouldn't that be insane?

YOU are being unreasonable and emotional. STOP IT! Stop making the situation worse.

I have no earthly idea what this means. It is a very irrational statement.

I suspect what is really happening here is that you have not hired a PI and are not spying at all. You are trying to set the stage for coming back and saying "oh no, there is no affair" or you "can't find evidence" hoping we will give you different advice. But thats not going to happen.

That's ok, but we can't help you in that case. If you can't do this, I would view this as hopeless. You don't have to take the advice.

Let me know when you get the evidence and I will help you. There is nothing more that I can do until that happens.

So you are calling me a liar? Do you think im doing this for fun? I am trying to save my marriage but i cant fabricate evidence. If there is none to find there is none to find. Please dont be rude. Im doing everything i am capable of

Titanic = marriage
driftwood = my bluff to her of having evidence of an affair with which I hope to coerce a confession. Detectives use this all the time interrogating suspects.

I'm done here. If you get some evidence come back and we can help with next steps. Otherwise there is nothing more to be said.

You WILL get cold hard proof. Do some lateral thinking. You have the huge advantage of knowing the name of the person likely to be the affair partner. Start thinking about what searches you can do on that name. People are careless. I found the fat slag by doing a name search in a hard drive backup.

Winslow,

Your only hope of saving this marriage and/or regaining your wife's love for you is to follow, by the letter, the advice you are being provided here. Talking about what-if(s) will do you no go and only distract you from the things you need to do.

Your tasks:

1). Snoop. Do everything in your power to find evidence of an affair. If and when you find that come back here and these wonderful people will tell you EXACTLY what to do to have the optimal impact on saving your marriage. Don't go off thinking you have a better plan. You don't.

2). Plan A. This one is just as critical as the snooping. You need to make the home as pleasant as you can and you need to look extremely attractive (even though she may not realize it right now in her foggy state).

Doing a perfect Plan A will help you if there is or isn't infidelity.

If she's having an affair (likely) you will be a place she can land WHEN her affair is exposed and falls apart. Almost all affairs die a painful death.

If she isn't having an affair (highly doubtful) by looking attractive and proving you are a wonderful husband and father she'll have a change of heart. She'll get over being mad at you when you show her consistently that you've changed for the better.

Relationship talk isn't a part of Plan A when dealing with a fogged out wayward. There is nothing you can do to change her mindset (so stop thinking you can).

Waywards are like carbon copies of each other. They all act and do the same way. Stop following your heart or what you think you know about your wife and just follow the plan as the others have advised.

So what are you going to do today (besides snoop) to show your wife the new you? I'd say plan some fun things to do with your daughter this weekend and invite your wife to come along. If she doesn't want to go follow through with your fun anyways. Invite her to the next fun event.

You are doing everything you believe you are capable of.

MelodyLane believes you are capable of more.

How would you like to have someone who has helped hundreds or thousands of people go through this for over 15 years, helping you and coaching you through this, to give you the best chance possible?

A coach is someone who helps you realize you are capable of more than you think you can do.

Often when my children were younger I'd tell them to do something and they would say "I can't" or "I'm scared." I would respond "Do it anyway." Today they can do those things without problems.

She wanted to talk last night so i listened. She told me she was miserable, has been miserable for months, and this has been a downward spiral for her for 3 years that has finally hit rock bottom. She said she doesnt like me, doesnt trust me, feels like I have emotionally abused her, my personality has been so overwhelming that she doesnt know who she is anymore, she just wants to be happy and doesnt think that she can get over all the negative stuff in our past to be happy with me again.

I told her im not stopping her from leaving. She said she has no money to move out. She said her parents offered to loan her money to hire an atty and get a divorce. She feels trapped in the walls of our house and just wants out. She is planning to move in with her sister in 2 weeks when her sisters roommate moves. She wants space and to get away from me.

I listened to all that and it hurt like you can not imagine. I told her i understand, i agree, i dont blame her for how she feels, and i understand if she cant overcome all the things she told me were upsetting her. I told her I was here for her, I love her and I want to address everything she has on her mind when the time is right. Gave her a hug (she didnt hug back) and i walked out of the room.

In trying to be strong but I feel like she is emotionally punishing me by acting this way. Theres no way she is legitimately maintaining this level of disdain towards me. It seems like the nicer I am to her, the more she shuts me out. As an experiment today I went cold towards her earlier and got in my truck and left. She called me 4 times and sent a text ("where is DD's phone?") Came back home after 45 mins acting blank and quiet and she said "whats wrong? Is something going on? Where did you go?" And I said "nothing, im fine. I was on the phone with my dad." And that was about the end of my experiment. But I noticed she seemed to care all of a sudden when I did this.

You did great!


She shuts you out because she needs to DEMONIZE you in order to justify her plans. When you are nice to her you confuse her and wreck her plans.


And doing so only REINFORCES her demonization of you and makes the OM look good. I assure you the OM is not "going cold." I am sure the OM appreciates your efforts to make him look BETTER. It doesn't help you one bit. Women are not attracted to men who are "COLD" to them.

Your plan of giving her the cold shoulder is not strategic and only helps the OM.

She needs you to "go cold" so you play into her plans to wreck her marriage. That makes her feel better about her plans to leave you for the OM.

Keep in mind she is leaving you for a guy who is not cold to her, so you should question the effectiveness of your strategy. It is not strategic at all.

Why hasnt she left yet? Her family has offered her money for an atty, money for an apartment, etc. Why is she still here drowning in her sorrows? If she is as miserable as she claims, why is she still here?

My theory is she isnt as miserable as she claims to be, and she is having to make a conscious effort to wear this scowl around on her face 24/7 in hopes that it will kill my desire to save the marriage and make her feel better about leaving. Essentially scripting a miserable ending to the marriage which she would try to pin on me as the source. I mean I am literally being as nice as humanly possible without riding her coat tail. Almost azz-kisser level nice, and all she has to say is how miserable she is. Feels like I am pushing her away by being nice.

Told wife i was thinking about taking DD to a movie. She said she was thinking abt doing the same. So now we are going to see "The Secret Life Of Pets" as a family

Because she is very confused and doesn't know what she wants. She may leave, but MOST DON'T. Her "plans" are about as practical as the "plans" of a falling down drunk. She is addicted to the OM but she knows deep down there are alot of problems with that plan.


She is MORE miserable than she claims, she is living in holy hell and doesn't see a clear path out. Her goal is to pretend like living with you is intolerable, therefore, she must leave. Then when she leaves, she will bring the OM out into the open. That is the PLOY she is using.

So when you are nice to her, you confuse her and mess up her plan. When you are COLD or mean she uses that as ammunition to justify her plan.

Great!!! Be nice and polite and pleasant.

Anything new on the snooping?

She WANTS you to be mean and cold. That helps her fantasy. That helps her demonize you. Don't confuse women with men. MEN like to chase, women hate it and will resent you for it. Don't think for a minute that helps, it only harms.

What were her chief complaints about you a year ago before she wanted to leave?

Follow up items:

1. getting the book Survivng an Affair

2. getting intensive snooping in place

How is this going?

1) got it. Started reading last night. Didnt get far.

2) voice recorder in car. She has been home/off work all day today though. Nothing to report.

Movie went fine. DD sat between us. Wife didnt have much to say to me but it was fun for both of us to take our daughter to her first movie ever. DD loved it. Wife took a selfoe of all 3 of us when we sat down. That surprised me. Anyway when we got home from the movie my wife said "oh i forgot i needed to go to target. I will be right back". She left 15 mins ago. Target is about 3 miles from our house. Curious to see how long this trip takes.

Honestly dont remember. We have had our little disagreements along the way but I cant remember a time when she came to me with a laundry list like this. She has struggled with depression off and on since she had our daughter. She is currently on Lexapro and has been for about a month. I havent noticed any signs of improvement but she is obviously making a conscious effort to be cold and distant towards me, so i dont think antidepressants can have any measurable effect on behavior like that.

Do you have the VAR set up??

Winslow,
Whatever you find out, don't confront your wife or tell her about the VAR!! Most likely, you will need snooping methods far into the future.

Bring info here for next steps. Plat it cool and stay calm.

Yes. Will check it tonight after everybody goes to sleep. Have to kill the security cams at the house and then go retrieve it, connect it to my computer to upload files, then replace it in the car and power up the cameras again. Lot of work to do every day without getting caught

Understood. She told me last night that after finding the gps on her car she took her phone to verizon to see if i had installed spy apps or anything on it, and she changed her passwords to everything again. I was like "why would you care if you werent doing anything wrong?" And her reply was (im paraphrasing) "am i not allowed to have any privacy? You dont trust me and I cant be with someone who doesnt trust me. You have no reason not to trust me"

"You don't trust me!!!" is the CLASSIC refrain of cheaters. IT IS TEXTBOOK. People who have nothing to hide, don't hide.

But I would not have this discussion with her or she will hide better. Just keep snooping and be as clever as possible

My daughters phone is partially syncing with my wifes phone so i can see her browser history amd contacts. I noticed on her browser history today she is looking at cars for sale. I assume she is planning to buy her own car soon

i wonder if you can see some of her apps if you sync with itunes? Can you sync it with itunes?

Yeah i tried it but it I dont know my wifes itunes login.

She went to bed without saying anything to me last night. I text her and said thanks for going to the movie with us and goodnight.

This was her reply - I can't help but ask what this morning was about? I don't want to be made out to be the bad guy in our situation. Last night was a productive conversation. I'm glad I could be honest with you.

Me - I had to go for a drive to clear my head. Dad called to ask me work related questions and i guess he sensed some tension so we talked for a little while. Last night was productive even though it was difficult. I like getting stuff out in the open. I will never tell you a lie. I love you too much to ever do that. Thank you for being honest with me. Thanks for talking to me. I like listening and am working hard to be a better listener.

She didnt reply. Noticed this AM she took her wedding rings off. Not sure if thats an attempt at getting a rise out of me or what. She hasnt taken them off in the 5 years we have been married. Hurts like hell to see her hand empty.

She was gone about 45 mins and came home with bed sheets for thr upstairs bed in a target shopping bag. I checked the voice recorder last night and there was nothing. Just her driving and listening to the radio.

Anyone heard of an iphone spy program called webwatcher? It can be installed remotely (no device access required) and no jailbreak required. Apparently all you need is the person's apple id login.

I have my wifes apple id and password after asking her what it was last night so i could download netflix onto my daughters phone. Hopefully she didnt change it after giving it to me.

I have used webwatcher for computers but not the iphone and it is awesome. You should go for it! And do it quick before she changes her password.

And she changed it.
DANGIT!!!!!!

What if I just tell her "i need your itunes password" and if she wont give it to me the convo turns to "what are you hiding?"

Wife wanted DD to sleep with her upstairs last night. DD had a meltdown wanting Daddy. I told wife she was welcome to sleep in the bed with us. She went and got her pillow and slept with us. Wouldnt touch me and was still cold toward me, but its a baby step.

This morning was good. Wife and DD wanted to go to church so i got DD ready in a matching dress and shoes, did her hair, etc. wife was thrilled that I did a good job. On their way out the door i noticed my wife was wearing her wedding ring. Seemed to be in a good mood. I stripped the bedding and washed it (usually wife does this).

Why didn't you go to church with them?

Its a long story, but despite a very religious upbringing, I am agnostic and have no desire to attend church.

Also, I found a book my wife just started reading called "Finding Me Again" and the author is Nancy Kay, who happens to be my wife's therapist and was our marriage counselor until my wife asked me to stop going with her.

You may want to ask yourself what's more important to you...you agnostic belief and lack of desire to attend church or your marriage? An hour or two out of your Sunday to sit with your wife and child (you can day dream, plan your day, think whatever thoughts you may have, meditate, just chill) may be VERY important to her. My husband is "spiritual" but not religious. There is nothing more I would like than for him to attend Mass with my so and me every Sunday....and our marriage is VERY solid/strong. There may be a good chance that your wife is putting the disconnect between your beliefs and hers under an microscope and adding that to her list of what she's "done" with....

Excellent point. I will try to start attending with them. Have a feeling wife is going to start moving out over the next couple days. Her sister is leaving for vacation for 2 weeks and her roommate is moving out during that time. Room is opening up at their house tomorrow morning. We will see.

No report. VAR turned up nothing today except radio and road noise. Wife still cold. She is still sleeping upstairs. Says she has "a lot think about". Im still being nice but not kissing azz. No change so far.

Tonight has been nice. DD and I have been upstairs in the bonus room playing while my wife did her aunts hair downstairs. When they were done my wife came upstairs to see what we are up to and brought popcorn. We both played with DD and for that moment she wasnt cold towards me

Update: she laid down with DD and I in our bed until DD fell asleep and then she went upstairs to go to bed. We seem to be getting along fine, she is purposely being cold towards me and sleeping in a separate room. I dont understand what this is about. She is treating me like the cheater!

Edit: There is a room open at her sisters house as of tonight and she hasnt given me any indication that she is moving out. Just keeps saying she has a lot to think about, feels like we have been "here" a thousand times and feels "stuck on this rollercoaster and just wants off". Her concerns seem to revolve around us always having the same problems that never get fixed, she feels like I always manipulate her and talk her back into the relationship when we have problems, etc.

Problems which may seem insignificant to you could be serious to her. You need to address her complaints for her to want to be with you.

Have you ever asked her to list the problems which never get fixed? Tell her that you want to work to solve the problems, so would she be willing to list them?

This may seem silly, but if she agrees, I would LISTEN, write them down, and ask her to read your list to verify that you have defined the problem accurately. Don't make opinion statements about anything she says. Just repeat it back and write it down. Tell her that you care about her happiness and will figure out a plan to solve the problems.

Can you try this? It is possible that the counselor has her convinced that you'll never change and she needs to leave you to find her own "authentic self". If you show a willingness to accommodate her needs and pay attention when she is bothered, it will go far.

Can you try this?

She is hiding something though or she would not be changing passwords. Keep snooping.

How is the intel coming along?

Nothing to report from snooping. The VAR has just caught her talking to our daughter driving down the road and the radio playing. Phone records show nothing other than her normal calls. Cant see imessages on the phone bill which is probably 75% of her text messaging so thats the big dark area and I have no access to it without just asking her for her password

I have been avoiding relationship talk with her and for me this falls under that category.

I have a bad feeling about her counselor, and I think you may be right. She hasnt made it far in the book based on where her bookmark is. I have read half of the book and to me its hogwash. Basically the book uses a bunch of metaphors and short stories to make the point that if you are unhappy with your life, dont let fear of the unknown keep you from throwing everything in the trash and starting fresh again. Its BS hippy logic, but my wife is naieve, reaching for answers to her own unhappiness and will take anything her counselor says to heart.

Currently my wife is looking for a new career path, considering dropping her hair career and doing something, anything, else. Her browser history shows job searches at random. Everything from dental assistant to retail sale, to front desk receptionist. Her search history also shows lots and lots of new car searches. Appears as though she is still planning to buy herself a car. None of this makes me feel very confident in the marriage recovery i am attempting here

Would it be too cliche and/or off-putting to send her flowers at work?

How did she find the GPS? Did you hint about it? Did she stumble across it?

Could her ex have a different car?

The stupid company sent a "welcome" packet in the mail about 2 weeks after i bought and received the unit. She checked the mail one day when I wasnt home and saw the packet, opened it, and then she went out to her car and found it plugged in under the dash.

No, her ex only has one vehicle. I have been by his house enough times to know this without a doubt.

When your wife complains, do you minimize it or do you come up with a plan? In the minimum, the next time she gives a specific complaint, do not shrug it off.

Your initial post reflects long periods of time when you ignored her complaints.

Responding to a SPECIFIC complaint when she brings up is not relationship talk. It is part of Plan A.

Maybe you don't need her to list but don't turn a blind eye to something you feel is petty or small. If it matters to her then it should matter to you.

Understood. Thats one of many things I am trying to work on. The problem is my wife wont hardly speak to me right now so trying to work on things is proving to be next to impossible. The list of things she is upset about seems simple to me to fix.

She complains that we never had a joint bank account and when she brought it up I resisted. I have a new attitude towards it now, so consider it done. I can do that tomorrow. Her response: "dont do anything right now"

I gave her $500 yesterday just because I dont know if she is broke right now or not and I want her to have some money on hand. Didnt make a big deal about it. Just slid it in her purse without saying anything. She hasnt said a word to me about it.

She says that she doesnt trust me. I offered passwords to everything I have. Told her she can track my vehicle all she wants. Im an open book and want her to feel like she can trust me. I have nothing to hide. Her response: "I just have a lot to think about right now"

I havent been the supportive husband that she wants. I have been busting my azz around the house lately, doing everything I can with our daughter, offering words of support, etc. Today I noticed she was very closed off to me and had very little to say. I sent her a text that said "You seem kinda bummed today. Try to have a good day. Everything is gonna be okay. If you need anything from me just ask." Her reply was a "thumbs up".

I havent interacted with her family like she wants. I cant do anything about that until her family comes around, but I owned that one, acknowledged the relationship she has with her family is far more important than I have acknowledged. I explained that my family is small and disconnected so I dont feel the way about my family that she does about hers, and thats my fault, and I see how important they are to her now and I can respect that.
"Blank stare. No response"

She feels like I am a wet blanket on her and she doesnt even know who she is anymore. I own that also. I can be overbearing, intimidating, opinionated and controlling at times and I am working to get my personality under control. I realize that my personality works great outside of our marriage but I am learning that this relationship is far more sensitive to personality conflicts, and I am working on becoming more self aware to keep this under control. Her response: "I just dont know if I am willing to do this anymore" or something to that effect.

Everything I am saying is meeting a brick wall. But she also hasnt slammed the door (yet) by moving out, etc. She hasnt filed for D (yet). She is camping out upstairs like a little kid pouting. Im ready and willing to address everything she is upset about, own my failures, and start being the best husband I can be, but she wont have it.

Also, and my wife 100% admits this, she is the type to bottle up her frustrations with me and hold it for months before dumping a huge bucket of her pain and frustration on me. That in turn makes her feel like our relationship is awful because look at all these problems!! I have tried to explain the importance of communicating her grievances to me so we can work on them and work through them, but she just cant do it. This is my #1 beef with our relationship. She is an awful communicator and it makes little problems into huge ones over time.

The monumental disrespect outlined in red exemplifies everything about your attitude during this marriage, and it's no wonder your wife won't have anything to do with you. How dare you describe her in that way, after all the things you listed about your own behaviour prior to this.

You pretty much abandoned her to bring up her new baby on her own. Have you any idea how much a woman wants her husband and father of her child to support her and show his love by being involved, in those early, crucial, frightening, magical months? By leaving her to it because you were not good with babies, you shattered one of the most important hopes she had for your marriage at that stage.

And you think that now you've been frightened into "being ready" and owning your failures" for all of - what? A month? - that she should grow up and stop acting "like a little kid", and take you at your word? I don't think she's the one who's been acting like a little kid here. You should be ashamed of your behaviour as a father until now.

You've a lot to learn about Marriage Builders, especially about meeting your wife's emotional needs - for Family Commitment, for example - and also about avoiding Love Busters such as disrespectful judgements ("like a little kid pouting").

And by the way, avoiding relationship talk goes against Dr Harley's advice to offer to meet the emotional needs she will let you meet, and to offer a much better marriage, if she will end the affair and give you a chance. I realise that you cannot be certain that she is having an affair, so you cannot get her to agree to end it, but even if she isn't, you've made a pig's ear of your marriage and you need to respect her feelings about that, and talk to her about how all that will be changed.

Wife just text me a screenshot of a text from her ex that she got today. It says "everything going good?"

She said (to me) "EXBF just sent me this. not exactly sure what im supposed to do. So im just letting you know."

My response was: "I'd appreciate if you told him not to contact you anymore. I really feel like he is a problem and needs to go completely away."

Its taking everything in my body to not drag this guy out in the street and spill his blood. I know what he is doing. "Everything going good?" Tells me he is asking her "hows your divorce coming along?" Im furious.


Edit: she replied to him: "Not Really. Sorry that I kinda drug you into all of this. The whole thing is pretty messed up so I think its best that we dont talk anymore. I think its making things more complicated. I hope that makes sense"

His reply: "yep"

I told her "thank you"

She said "no problem"

This tells me my suspicions and you all's were accurate. It sounds like she has been in regular contact with this guy giving him the details of our marriage falling apart and probably getting emotional support from him. He is waiting in the wings for her to leave me so he can slide in and rescue her from the pain. This was an emotional affair and she has told on herself. What to do now?

Translation: she's a miserable, spiteful, vengeful beotch, and this is all her fault.

Whoa. Read the previous 18 pages of me owning every problem in our relationship before making that comment about the one issue i have with her.

That was all negated - all of it - by your description of her "like a little kid pouting". If you really "owned" all that you described, you could never have made that comment.

I accept the blame for every problem I have cause in our marriage. Regardless of what problems i feel like she is responsible for. Taking responsibility for my own contributions has no correlation with the problems I feel like she has. My reference to her acting like a child, I feel like, is an accurate comparison. Would I say to her face "you are acting like a child"? Of course not. Im venting on this forum my frustrations. I think a mature way of handling this on her part would be to talk it out with me. But with the latest revelation of her all but admitting her affair, i feel lost with how to proceed from here

I would go pay this rat a visit and tell him to take a hike and stay out of your marriage. He needs to know that this is none of his business and he is causing problems in your marriage.

SC, just so you know, I told him to stop having relationship "talks" with her because he was pushing her to "communicate" with him when she is in withdrawal. I told him to avoid these type of combative discussions and focus on meeting her needs and being as pleasant as possible. That is what he means when he says he is avoiding relationship talks.

When he gets the evidence of an affair, if any, we will coach him to address this with his wife.

Id love to, but he will tell my wife and then she will get mad at me for not trusting her to end it. Trying hard to avoid things that make her mad right now.

That's fine. Our goal is to save your marriage by running this rat off, not to avoid making your wife angry at all cost. He needs to hear from you every time he interferes in your marriage.

Gotcha.

This is a quagmire because i am the one that suggested she sleep with him a couple years ago to somehow put heat back into our bedroom time. It appears as though this blew up into something I never intended. The issue with me stepping in here is she will get mad at me and say Im the reason they ever started speaking again. This is my fault. So how do i run him off when im the reason he is in this situation?

But you are now a caring, protective loving husband who is no longer willing to put his marriage in jeopardy. Regardless of what happened in the past, this jerk needs to take a hike. You need to show you care enough for your marriage to run this rat off. This guy is a piece of crap to be hanging around your marriage.

I would explain to your wife that you are SICK AT HEART that you ever suggested swinging and deeply regret having any part of sharing your treasured wife with another man. Tell her you cannot BEAR to have this RAT hanging around your wife because you love her too much. Ask her to NEVER EVER see or speak to him again.

I will have this talk with her if i can find the right time. Id like to let her know i am thankful that she has done her part to end the communication with him, but I still feel it is necessary that I communicate the same to him myself, so as to remove any doubt to on anyone's part that this is over and done. She will likely have an attitude towards this because she will feel like I dont trust her to end this herself. Which I dont. I just have to find a non-lovebusting way to say this to her so as to not create even more turmoil in the relationship.

I believe that through me tracking her car she believes I am watching her, and she felt like she needed to put it out in the open for me. My fear is that its a distraction to keep me from digging deeper into what exactly they talked about, how frequently, and how evolved the EA may have truly been. My gut tells me she feels caught, wants to sweep it under the rug and never bring it up again. Honestly I feel the same way.

You can stop "digging" right now because you aren't going to "dig" out the truth. Allowing him to stay enmeshed in your marriage is a distraction from saving your marriage. My fear is that you imagine you can "dig" this out of your life when you should be focusing on running this guy off.

It is your job to keep him out of your marriage. That should not just fall to your wife. Here is where I think you are going wrong. You believe that since you invited this rat into your marriage that you can't take a stronger action against him. You need to disabuse him of this notion yourself. You invited him into your marriage, so why leave it up your wife to do this? This is your job.

Go confront him, tell him to take a hike and ask your wife to never see or speak to him again.

That is a bad plan because she will only forewarn him. Better to just go do it. You don't want to give them a heads up.

Say what you have to say to this man. If she asks about it, tell her that you thought he needed to hear it from you too. Then ask her to change her number so he will stop contacting her.

How long should I expect my wife to camp out upstairs? This is getting ridiculous. We get along during the day. No arguing or fighting or even disagreeing. Everything is feeling better by the day but she keeps going upstairs to sleep. Whats her logic? How long will this last? What needs to change or what will the turning point be? Im starving to reconnect with her and this is killing me

I cant help but think its a good indicator for our relationship that she voluntarily sent me a screenshot of him texting her and then she asking me what to do, and then doing what i asked - telling him things are not good, their relationship is causing problems, and not to contact her anymore. Seems like, to me at least, that if she didnt care about repairing our marriage or really was done, she wouldnt have done any of that today.

After that she asked me to meet her at bed bath and beyond to order new curtains for the living room. Then we went next door to old navy and shopped for clothes for DD together. Things went well this afternoon I felt like. But she is still sleeping upstairs

Not until she is in love with you again

So thats the obvious answer. Can you expand on how we get from here to there? I told her last night that she can come back to bed anytime she is ready. I understand where she is right now, so i dont want to put any pressure on her. And i told her i just want you to know i miss sleeping together in the same bed.

She didnt respond.

Yes, you need to do this. That is what the book Lovebusters covers. Have you read it yet?

It's also what SugarCane was trying to point out. Even though you are venting here, she saw something relevant.

It's worth mentioning that (Per Dr. Harley) a lovebuster's reality is determine by your spouse, and not you. In other words, if she says it's a problem, then it is. Don't spend valuable time arguing or defending yourself. Instead ask how high and how far to get clarity for a forthcoming behavioral adjustment.



You may feel like your personality works great outside of marriage.

Also keep in mind that spouses get the multiplication of our annoying ways, and spouses will tell us, but others probably won't. Others notice, but would rather move on than make an issue.

One example of this is that several of us who read your posts can quickly point out your probable lovebusters without your telling us. SugarCane took the time to point some things out to you. Just food for thought.


So to go back to your question about how to go from A to B?

1. Run off the OM. You hired him, now fire him. (Reread Melody's recent posts and take action. Post when said action is complete.)

2. Read the advice you receive and try to see how it COULD apply to you. Then kindly respond. Try not to lash out even though you are vulnerable right now and it hurts.

3. Yes, send flowers. But don't expect her to jump into bed with you for it. Do it to help her feel special. Granted, you are trying to motivate her back to you, but you can't have expectations since she may feel manipulated not motivated. Tell her what to expect from YOU in the future...how you will show care for her.

It will take a couple of months for her to believe any changes are real.

Be patient with her, Winslow.

Text sent to OM just now

"Do me a favor and stop texting my wife. Do not contact her anymore. Understood?"

I dont expect a reply. He is a chickensh*t

If he tells her i text him she will be mad about it at which point he will have done exactly what i told him to stop doing.....and i end up knocking on his door.

Or she says nothing to me and acts like he didnt text her... wrong for her to do

Or he doesnt contact her and we move on

She may act mad but underneath she will know that you are fighting for her.

It's possible also that she doesn't want you to find out what they've been discussing. All typical.

You still need a way to verify no contact.

You were TOLD to knock on his door. This isn't something that you should "end up" doing; this should have been your first move. Why didn't you follow the advice you were given?

As it is, you've sent an ineffectual text message, asking him to "do you favour". The whole message is ambiguous about whether you are telling him to take a hike, or asking him as a friend for his help. It does not make it clear that he has no business talking to your wife about her marital woes, and that he is causing problems, and that regardless of what you encouraged to happen before between them, you want him gone now, for good. "Understood?" might have been meant by you as a vaguely threatening statement, but since you didn't not spell out what you meant, it is not necessarily the case that he "understood" that he is breaking up your marriage.

A text message just seems cowardly. We can all say tough-sounding things when hiding behind our phones or computer screens. It would have been much more effective for you to have seen him face to face, and made sure he heard everything you wanted him to hear.

1) No one gave me specific instructions as to the only acceptable manner of confronting the OM. I was instructed to run him off and thats what I feel like I did.

2) "Do me a favor" is sarcasm. I didnt literally ask him a favor. I told him to not to contact my wife anymore.

3) He started typing a message to reply to me (indicated by the "..." that appeared immediately once i sent the text. But he never responded

You were specifically told to pay him a visit.

Have you read Surviving an Affair yet?

What is going with the PI?

Well, I would assert that texting the OM is "chickensh**." You need to take this more seriously and pay him a visit. He can't be expected to take it seriously if you aren't.

"1) No one gave me specific instructions as to the only acceptable manner of confronting the OM. I was instructed to run him off and thats what I feel like I did. "

I told you to pay him a visit. A text wouldn't "run off" an 11 yr old girl. Feelings are not truth.

Winslow, don't want to kick you when you are down, but please don't bite the hands that feeds you.

Can you see from the quote above how I made a special effort to steer you back to Melody's clear instructions? (You don't need to respond to that.)

I have been in your shoes where I was so emotional that I couldn't think straight. But understand that from my perspective it seems like you are so emotional that you are skimming the points made and applying a defensive filter. That isn't going to help you.


I recommend that you print these posts and highlight any specific advice. Then make your axtion list from those items.

You need clarity and I'm not great at being succinct. Melody sure is though. Thanks goodness for that.

"Axtion" list. Lol.