My husband (of 12yrs) recently came clean on an affair from months ago. It lasted 4 months....only because he is military and had to come home. He says it is the first, only, and last time. I suspected, questioned and he still lied...for 6 months. Only reason he told is I caught him emailing her. We are seperated by a few states right now....he had taken a job elswhere. We were all planning on going but the bomb was dropped 1 week prior to him leaving. my problem is that before we got married and throughout our marriage I emphasized how horrible I thought cheating was and that I didn't think I could ever forgive it.....now I am actually in the situation.I do love him.....but do I go against everything I have believed to fix this? I need help in forgiving.
forgiveness will be much easier after you are convinced that your husband considers your feelings whenever he makes a decision (follows the Policy of Joint Agreement), is completely honest with you about everything (follows the Policy of Radical Honesty), and is meeting your important emotional needs. For you to be convinced, he must not only agree to these changes, but he must also demonstrate his commitment by living them for a while. Forgiveness may still require a bit of generosity on your part, but if he makes these changes, I think you'll be able to handle it. When that happens, the burden of resentment you are carrying will be lifted, and the love you have for each other will be restored.
My husband (of 12yrs) recently came clean on an affair from months ago. It lasted 4 months....only because he is military and had to come home. He says it is the first, only, and last time. I suspected, questioned and he still lied...for 6 months. Only reason he told is I caught him emailing her. We are seperated by a few states right now....he had taken a job elswhere. We were all planning on going but the bomb was dropped 1 week prior to him leaving. my problem is that before we got married and throughout our marriage I emphasized how horrible I thought cheating was and that I didn't think I could ever forgive it.....now I am actually in the situation.I do love him.....but do I go against everything I have believed to fix this? I need help in forgiving.
Welcome to MB, broken. Sorry you're here, but you're among friends.
It's funny - the things we profess to believe in and what we actually end up doing are often not the same things. You'll see that here, time and time again. My FWH and I said the same thing: If either one of us screwed around, our M was over. It was our "one unforgiveable sin." Well, he did it and we're still together 14 months later. The truth is that you don't know what you're going to do til you get there.
Now here you are. Time to start reading everything on this site. You'll get an eyeopener on what A's are, how they get started, how to end them, and how to heal your M. It's not about the sex, it's not about anything wrong with you. Read and learn, broken. If your goal is to learn to forgive him, you'll find help here.
Questions: Who is the OW? Is she married? What are you doing now in regards to your relationship with your WH? Why haven't you joined him?
Forgiveness does not equal forget. Just to remind you.
You will forgive. You will never forget.
The moment I finally crossed over into "forgiveness" happened in church. We were saying "The Lord's Prayer".
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"And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive them that trespass against us"
I was suddenly acutely aware of my sins and how I had been forgiven by God. If I was asking to be forgiven, I best be offering forgiveness as well. It is a two way street.
It's a big step. Don't beat yourself up if you can't do it right away.
Welcome to Marriage Builders, the club nobody wants to join. I am not going to restate what you have already been told. This is a place where you can vent and you can learn.
Mostly learn.
But that will be up to you. Your best route is to post here often and with detail. Note the way I use paragraphs. Helps us with old eyes read what you have to say and respond.
ow is not married and in another country. What I am doing in regards to my husband is staying put right now. I have 2 kids in school and they finish may 28....we planned on joining him afterwards, before I got the news. It is funny where we find ourselves and I plan on reading alot that is on this website. My WH is actually the one who steered me here...he has posted as well. We talk alot....but I cannot let go....This has been with in the last 3 weeks. My heart still hurts like crazy, it's hard to breathe at times, I get flashes of anger and then hysterical crying fits....I am in no control and I can't stand that.
Thank you marcos, I plan on reading all you suggested. My WH also has been on this site...he has posted as well, not here though...he has ordered some books for us to read, hopefully that will help.
ow is not married and in another country. What I am doing in regards to my husband is staying put right now. I have 2 kids in school and they finish may 28....we planned on joining him afterwards, before I got the news. It is funny where we find ourselves and I plan on reading alot that is on this website. My WH is actually the one who steered me here...he has posted as well. We talk alot....but I cannot let go....This has been with in the last 3 weeks. My heart still hurts like crazy, it's hard to breathe at times, I get flashes of anger and then hysterical crying fits....I am in no control and I can't stand that.
What is your WH's posting name?
What you are feeling right now is normal. You are the survivor of a terrible crime. Many compare the emotions to post traumatic stress syndrome. It's horrible, unlike anything else.
But you will survive this and it will get better, hear me, 5sec? It will get better.
Should I really give that info....He had given it to me and I have read his posts. I believe he is sorry....Don't know if it is only because he was caught or not. He seems geniune but then again I believed this would never ever happen....guess I have egg on my face for that.
Should I really give that info....He had given it to me and I have read his posts. I believe he is sorry....Don't know if it is only because he was caught or not. He seems geniune but then again I believed this would never ever happen....guess I have egg on my face for that.
We only ask so we can read his past posts as well, in order to see what kind of mindset he's got/had. No need to give it if you're not comfortable doing so.
Hi there, a lot of are faced with this question, me as well, I too believed that an affair was something I couldn't accept and forgive...... I think you have to give yourself lots of time to work through your emotions when it comes to the affair, it's like a death and there are a few stages to live through before you can make a good decision. I feel differently now then I did 4 months ago when I found out......I'm calmer now and my emotions don't just take over anymore... There is a lot to consider, what is your husband willing to do to make things right, was the marriage in a good place or did it need some work, we have to be honest about a lot of things now.....I have learned a lot about myself in all this. You don't need to decide this minute, take your time, figure out what you want and if you two both still want the marriage, then work at it and make it the best you can make it, use this as a jumping off point to success... I agree with the above poster, I think forgiveness is in all of us that are generous at heart, but do we ever forget No!........There isn't a marriage out there that is perfect I guess we all have to decide what works for us and you know yourself and your husband and you in your heart know if staying together is something you two can work out........Honesty and Self searching now is the key to creating a good marriage. good luck
I think it is deerhunter71. I have been reading so I don't see why he would mind. I am thankful he found this...it's nice to hear from others who have been thru the same and how they coped. I don't feel alone but I still feel out of control.
Broken5, I've seen your H's posts. (Sorry, I haven't chimed in on his thread, because I've needed a break from posting here for the past few weeks.)
I hate that you are where you are. I put my own wife in such a situation starting in Oct.2008. After I got backed into a corner by events, I had to come clean to her (15 months ago today, in fact). Throughout the affair, I never had it in mind to leave my wife, but I also was content to "have my cake & eat it too" and to keep putting off doing the right thing. Until my other woman's husband found her out, I'd kept everything secret; and so you can say that I too ended it only because I finally had gotten caught.
All I can offer you for the moment is the hope that it is certainly possible that his regret is genuine, and that it can evolve into a proactive remorse where he looks to do right by you & strives, albeit imperfectly, to make your relationship better than it was before his affair.
And that has to be your mutual goal: to make your relationship better than it ever was before his affair. (Because however it was before, that wasn't good enough to keep this from happening.) This will take hard work by both of you, on a sustained basis. Even best-case, you shouldn't expect to be over things in a month or 6 months or even a year or more. As I think you already recognize, your ability to recover will be heavily contingent upon his effort in protecting you, being honest/transparent with you, and making sustained efforts to meet your emotional needs, going forward from now. It'll take him coming to grips with & acknowleging just how selfish he let himself get. (It's that selfishness that's at the root of these things ... it enables all the lies and deception and everything that goes along with this stuff.) That realization sometimes takes wayward spouses a while to come around to. At the same time, although the decision to engage in the affair was all his & although his choice to do so was inexcusable, he can't fix things all by himself without a conscious decision on your part to give him a shot at making amends to you, and without effort by you to meet whatever needs he had that he improperly sought fulfillment for outside your marriage.
My wife also thought I'd never do what I did. And, up until the time I started getting involved in my affair, I'd have told you that you were crazy if you'd even have suggested that I could potentially get involved in one. Sometimes heretofore "good men" jettison good sense and do horrible things, and there's little making sense of it.
Hang in there and keep reading here (especially the Harley material in the yellow box at the right side of the page). Most of the folks here are betrayed spouses who've suffered what you're suffering and can give you some of the best advice you'll get anywhere.
All I can offer you for the moment is the hope that it is certainly possible that his regret is genuine, and that it can evolve into a proactive remorse where he looks to do right by you & strives, albeit imperfectly, to make your relationship better than it was before his affair.
This is how I feel as well. Who I am today is not who I was then. I am more aware of my weaknesses then I ever was before it all. I can protect myself and my marriage. Its like - there was a ccrack in m foundation I couldnt see before. Now i have the contractors out (dr. harley and the bible)...I have bought the new timbers and cement and I am securing that crack and double re enforcing it.
Originally Posted by GloveOil
And, up until the time I started getting involved in my affair, I'd have told you that you were crazy if you'd even have suggested that I could potentially get involved in one. Sometimes heretofore "good men" jettison good sense and do horrible things, and there's little making sense of it
ditto - saddly - my H was suspicious of me before I ever cheated...he had set up a video tape in the room where i chatted on the internet with men...has me on tape saying "I will never cheat on you, never never never."...Hard for him to believe me...but - saying you wont touch the fire is different once you have had to scrap off the burnt flesh...bandage it and carefully help it heal for months. Once you have been burnt and healed - well not only will you not touch the flame...but you stay as far away from the the wood, the matches, the fire place and anything else that might be flamable...Itslike...an old injury though completely healed that aches when ever you see what caused it.
I am sorry your here broken5...i really wish you healing in your life and a recovered marriage.
Here is a copy of my wife's take on forgiveness...... maybe you can gleen some helpful info from it...
She was responding to a post from another member about forgiveness as well.... she posted this over two years ago.
Originally Posted by SexyMamaBear
I thank you for this topic, as I understand why you posted it. I started a thread back in August during our false recovery on this very topic.
Forgiveness is an act or attitude, IMHO, that I CHOOSE. I chose to forgive my husband, I think, immediately. Or, at least, after the initial shock wore off. Why did I forgive? Because I knew I could never restore my marriage without forgiveness. I could never have what I was working so hard to fight for, if I did not forgive. Without my forgiveness, our marriage was doomed...no matter what my FWS was willing to do for me.
So, what is forgiveness and how do I know I have done it? I believe forgiveness means removing the PUNISHMENT for the offense (not to be confused with consequences). What is the punishment for infidelity? Well, my religion must come in here. The punishment for sin is death? Should my FWS receive death? Should he receive the same betrayal and abandonment I suffered? Should he be so beaten down that he no longer feels worthy of love and forgiveness?
All those things would be punishment. How do I know I have forgiven my FWS? Because I do not want him to receive the appropriate punishment for his betrayal and abandonment. Because I do not feel pleasure or justification when he is agonizing over the damage he caused to me and our children. In fact, I hurt FOR him when he is overwhelmed with his grief, guilt and shame. That is how I know I have forgiven him.
But the truth is I forgave him before he wanted it. I did not ever desire him to receive the appropriate punishment for his betrayal.
I DID want him to suffer the natural consequences, however. But not to hurt him; but because I knew that those consequences would help to restore him to God and to his family, where he belonged and needed to be.
I find it incredibly difficult to have this conversation without it centering around my spiritual faith, although I AM trying.
You see, I KNOW that I could NOT forgive this offense without God's supernatural happening inside of me. This is all way too big for me.
I NEED God to:
help me forgive heal my wounds restore my marriage unite us again in body and spirit
This IS ALL supernatural. How can I remove God from this discussion????
I remember last summer being worried that I would forgive "too quickly" because I am a forgiving person. I sought God's guidance in the question of WHEN to forgive. Here is a cut and paste of my post back in August. I agree with my statement even more today. We watched THE PASSION on Easter, and it reminded me of this.
I didn�t want to forgive my husband for his infidelity before it was the �right time�. Fearing that I might too quickly forgive my husband before he is �deserving�, I prayed that God would show me when the right time would be. God immediately spoke audibly to me the verse, "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do." The he said it to me again a little differently: "Forgive him, SMB, for he knows not what he has done."
I felt overwhelmed as I considered Jesus� great suffering. It must have been an emotional suffering as well as a physical one. How did Jesus forgive and when? It appears to me that, Jesus, being consumed with love for those who persecuted Him, offered complete forgiveness with the hope that those same people would be restored to His Father in Heaven. He forgave immediately, in the midst of His agony, when His suffering was the greatest. He didn't wait "x" amount of months; he didn't wait to see remorse/repentance, he didn't wait for any action or words from the offender. He offered forgiveness immediately WHILE he suffered. He asked his Father to forgive them as he sacrificed himself to save them.
Today, I see this as true. FWS DIDN'T know what he had done. He could not yet comprehend what destruction he was causing...to those he loved most. And those that crusified Jesus, could not yet comprehend what their actions meant.
THAT did NOT stop Jesus from forgiving them while he was at his GREATEST suffering.
So this is the IDEAL. But we all know that forgiveness can be challenging. We may have to CHOOSE to forgive every single day. We may have days where we do not FEEL like forgiving. I think early on, some BS's have to make a daily choice to have an attitude of forgiveness, but must be patient with themselves when the triggers bring on the immense hurt or anger. Over time, forgiveness will get easier and eventually be a non-issue...as long as we are seeking to be forgiving.
But we complicate forgiveness, thinking it is more than it is. In my book, it is removing the appropriate punishment...or the desire for the appropriate punishment to be divvied out.
It is NOT:
removal of natural consequences forgetting the offense pretending everything is restored refusing to process the emotions that resulted from the infidelity (hurt, anger, sorrow, grief) trusting without reason
I know that Dr. H talks about just compensation. I think this is a great concept, which I understand better now that I have witnessed it from my FWS. He has offered a great deal of just compensation, ranging from steps to protect our marriage to a post nup agreement that gives me the cash value of his business.
But my forgiveness is NOT dependent on his just compensation. There is nothing he can do to DESERVE my forgiveness. It is there only because I CHOOSE it to be.
BUT his just compensation DOES help restore my trust in him. It does make me feel safe in our marriage again. It does rebuild the relationship that was devastated. It does demonstrate to me his commitment to be my husband forever.
My personal belief is that forgiveness is GIVEN, not earned. It is an choice the BS makes for no reason other than it is right. Without it, marriages cannot be restored. With it, all things are possible. No matter what our FWS do, without our forgiveness, our marriages are doomed.
I know I have forgiven because I do not want my FWS to receive his "just reward" for this betrayal and abandonment. To me, that's is the only thing forgiveness is about.
But forgiveness opens to door to a lot of other wonderful things...restored relationships, peace and joy.
Should I really give that info....He had given it to me and I have read his posts. I believe he is sorry....Don't know if it is only because he was caught or not. He seems geniune but then again I believed this would never ever happen....guess I have egg on my face for that.
Since you have read your husband's posts, you should recognize who I am. I have posted to BH71 a bunch and intend to keep on as often as he posts and says something. I think he is worth my time. I note that Schoolbus has also posted to him and from what I have seen, she doesn't do so to waste her time either. And she is better at this advice stuff than am I.
What you will learn here and from the books, is a set of emotional tools that when properly used, will last you a lifetime. Out of the rubble of your marriage, you will find ways of reaching a level of happiness you probably would have never reached otherwise. All you have to do is learn and develop and do the program.
I am excited for both you and your husband. It is rare for both parties to both work on the marriage and recovery at the same time. It is usually just one working and the other either following along or acting demented as the case may be.
I am proud of BH71 having the courage and the smarts to come here. Most males have a thing about relationship books and help, sorta like going to the Dentist. Not BH71, he is really getting with it. And that 5SEC is really, really a big deal.
Secondly, I am proud of you showing up here and asking for help. It shall be provided
I can't be more thankful than I am now for my husband coming on here and steering me here. This is a difficult time for us. I know he is hurting as much as I am. I have gotten wonderful advise as I feel my husband has as well. You are all being more helpful than you will ever know. I love my husband....I don't like to see him suffering, but I don't want him to forget how much he hurt me either. This is so new for me to be so out of control, I know that in time that will get better. I also know with the help of all of you that it is possible. My husband is really trying hard and I am pretty impressed with what he has dug up already. He has alittle more "excitement" in it but I am trying, that is all I can offer right now.His intentions are definitely noticed.
I can't be more thankful than I am now for my husband coming on here and steering me here. This is a difficult time for us. I know he is hurting as much as I am. I have gotten wonderful advise as I feel my husband has as well. You are all being more helpful than you will ever know. I love my husband....I don't like to see him suffering, but I don't want him to forget how much he hurt me either. This is so new for me to be so out of control, I know that in time that will get better. I also know with the help of all of you that it is possible. My husband is really trying hard and I am pretty impressed with what he has dug up already. He has alittle more "excitement" in it but I am trying, that is all I can offer right now.His intentions are definitely noticed.
you say you are thankful he steered you here, and you notice his actions. Have you let him know your thoughts?
Just don't be so hard hearted. If he is trying to get in then just let him. Sooner or later you will forgive him. You don't have to forgive him immediatley. Instead work with him, soften your heart, and let yourself love him, even though he has wronged you, then you can forgive him.
I assume you don't want to forgive right now because you are afraid that this could happen again. If you don't soften up a little it will happen again. Lets make up statistice here. You can have a 20% chance of making things work out if you don't soften up, and a 80% chance of making thinkgs work if you do soften up.
For the record ... and speaking only for myself .... I see NO EVIDENCE that you are "hard hearted". None whatsoever. I see evidence that you have been deeply wounded. You will soften your heart when it is time for you to do so.
We are 21 months past D-Day and like you, I could not believe that my DH of 15 years at the time was even capable of being such a deceiver. His integrity and the strength of our M was something the gave me great pride. He started his A while overseas alone when he was there a couple of months. I joined him later and he continued his A with the XOW for the next year only seeing her five times during that year when he traveled to the location she worked. To say that I was devestated would be an understatement. I actually can admit to being on the verge of a nervous breakdown. I have never felt anything so horrible. It took me a long time before I even tried to forgive my DH. I went through extreme emotions and the anger I exhibited scared me and my DH like crazy. During our long M, I never disrespected my DH the way I did after D-Day.
When a M couple is living apart it is very difficult because it is so hard to meet each other's emotional needs. You can't do it. We couldn't do it being oceans apart. It took me a long time to realize that my DH is not perfect and that his loneliness and not having his family left him vulnerable. The A continued because once me and our kids moved overseas with him he was already "addicted" to the feel goods of having a woman worship the ground he walks on. The woman was a native in the third world country where we were and she literally treated my DH like a god the few times they were together. While I am inhibited when it comes to my DH, and I not shy in the bedroom and I love to pamper my DH once he was with someone who thought he was a king he found it hard to break away from the cycle. The moment I found out my DH called her in front of me, told her how much he loved me and how stupid he was and we left that country.
Realize that your DH is under a lot of pressure being away from his family. Make sure you make every effort to create a safe environmnet for your DH. I had to forgive my DH in segments. He told me the entire story of his A and I forgave him for each even seperately because forgiving all at once was too hard. The part that I had a hard time with is that we found out the the xow was sleeping with so many other guys and my DH was actually shocked to realize that she was such a wh*re. No duh sherlock!! That made me mad for a long time but I finally had to realize that he had to make her out to not be such a bad person because if she is that terrible (which she was) what does that make him in his mind.
You can rebuild a stronger M and union but it takes time and a lot of hard work. I can tell you that I thought our M was perfect before, but now our M isn't perfect but we have reached a greater level of intimacy and our M is "protected" becuase my DH and I go out of our way to protect and safeguard it.
I know you feel like you are going to die right now but trust me, it does get better. I actually laughed the other day when I thought about one of the stupid things my DH did during his A and that was a real growth spurt for me. Work hard on your M and let your DH know how much you love him even when you are hating him for what he did.
Forgiveness, IMO, is something that cannot be rushed. It took me AGES to reach forgiveness. I don't get hurt or angry easily, but once I have been deeply hurt or angered, I usually don't ever let go of that. So it was literally months (like 2 or 2.5 years) before I felt true forgiveness enter my heart.
What you CAN do is tell DH71 what he can do to help you feel safer. Like give you his password to all his accounts, or get a cellphone that has GPS and keep it on and enabled and on his body at all times so you can see where he is, or put a keylogger on his computer so you can see where he's been surfing/chatting/emailing and what he's said. Make sure he knows you're requesting these things (or whatever is appropriate for your situation) not to punish him, but to let him know how he can make you feel safe. He is repentant, and he will want you to feel safe.
In MY case, when I felt safe I was able to relax and only after I could relax could I forgive.
Thanks Cobol-girl, I do tell him I love him and in the same sentence I tell him how much I hate him right now. We talk everyday, 2x a day, and we email or text when we are thinking something. I think we are on the right track, I just have to get this forgiving thing dowh.
okay folks, here I am at 1:00 a.m and have a rush of madness. I can't stop thinking of the act....I keep telling myself it is done and over with, focus on something I can do something about. Here is my "i just can't believe he did this" moment. uuuggghhh, I hate being out of control!
Go to the forum list and select notable posts. See the list down at the bottom of this page? While you are there, read longhorn and Wats posts. Keep in mind, that you have a repentant WH, an FWH
Post on this board like crazy and talk to your DH until you run out of breath. The fact that you are staying with him after such a disgusting act shows how much you really love him. I know its hard. One of the hardest things for me was to re-gain respect for my DH. I regurgitated when I thought about him and that nast woman. She was ugly and nasty and it made me sick to my stomach for a long time. I have learned to control my thoughts (somewhat) and not get sick when I think about what he did. I know you love your DH with all your heart. No one could stay with their spouse after infidelity if they didn't love them. You are going to have some really crazy times but take care of yourself and your DH. He really needs you right now. I didn't realize for a long time that my DH needed me as much as he did until one day it was a look of desperation in his eyes that told me he loved me and needed me more than ever.
okay folks, here I am at 1:00 a.m and have a rush of madness. I can't stop thinking of the act....I keep telling myself it is done and over with, focus on something I can do something about. Here is my "i just can't believe he did this" moment. uuuggghhh, I hate being out of control!
This will take a long time to stop entirely. (years, in fact) The improvement is slow going, and it is up and down, forwards and backwards. You will feel disoriented. ALL OF YOUR DISORIENTATION/PAIN/YO-YO FEELINGS ~~~> EXPECTED. What you are experiencing does NOT mean there is something wrong with you. Recovery is hard. Harder than most people think ... until they get there themselves.
It is exceedingly difficult to function/think/make decisions when experiencing such conflicting love-hate emotions.
I know what it is like to feel such deep love and passion for your wayward spouse that it makes you ANGRY that you even have these loving feelings after betrayal.
Recognize this for what it is. Trauma. You are recovering from trauma. Isn't it amazing how much this hurts PHYSICALLY? Your chest hurts. Your body cannot function properly. You feel exhausted but cannot relax. Sleep is fitful. THIS IS TRAUMA.
Spend as much time as possible together with your husband, doing pleasant things. Make love as often as possible. Even if it is "mad angry sex" ... it is forging a bond. When you are discussing the adultery .... schedule time for it to end. After 30 minutes (or whatever works for you) STOP. Do something else.
It is important to pamper yourself. Whatever you like. A massage? A trip to the hair salon? A new pair of shoes? Some new bedding? An exercise class?
Now is the time to deepen your spiritual life. Pray. Read.
And, as much as you can, it is most important to laugh. Laughter stimulates healing relaxing hormones into your brain and wards off depression.
If you are depressed, or anxious, speak to your physician and get treatment.
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I hate being out of control
The items I listed above, are within your locus of control. You cannot control past history. You cannot squash (control) your grieving ... but you can choose to deal with your grieving in ways that make you healthier.
pepperband, thanks so much for your words...they really do help. I am grateful for this site and all who dedicate themselves to help others. I am sure I will be posting alot. Yes, I do love my husband and yes that makes me mad especially after the A....but that doesn't change the love I have for him, surprisingly. I know it will take time and I am starting to do things to pamper myself.
Okay so, I have been reading things and listening to things and everything suggests that the BS usually has given reason to the A happening. I don't believe it....everyone has temptations, it is our decisions that create the problem. Right?
Okay so, I have been reading things and listening to things and everything suggests that the BS usually has given reason to the A happening. I don't believe it....everyone has temptations, it is our decisions that create the problem. Right?
Keep reading. Basically, the seeds of temptation are in all of us. And a lousy marriage is no excuse for adultery. There doesn't seem to be a correlation between the quality of the marriage and the incidence of cheating.
Forgiving is something that doesn't just happen, and yet it seems like it does.
It sort of unfolds. Little by little, it creeps up on you, and then all of a sudden you realize you have forgiven. So it isn't something you will rush, or can rush, or can say to yourself, "Okay, today you need to forgive him."
There was a thread "On Forgiveness" a long time ago somewhere. Don't know if it got lost in the system crash, but we can see. Maybe bump it up for old time's sake. Lots of people contributed to that, and it was pretty good.
I've posted to your husband. So that you know, I have a little specialty in knowing people via their writing. He is honest and sincere. He regrets what he has done. He is desperate to figure out what he can do to help you get through this. His major problem is that he is a fixer, and he wants to be able to fix it all and have things be "right" as soon as .... now .... only that isn't soon enough! He is devastated at his own behavior, and that he has hurt you, and wants the marriage to be better and stronger. He does want the marriage to be rebuilt in a stronger fashion - and he wants to be the man you need him to be.
It won't happen today, though. It takes awhile, can be up to two years or more, depending on the people and the work they do.
But you can forgive, you can rebuild your marriage, and he can become the kind of husband you need him to be to support you through this.
And yes, you can post here throughout the ordeal - because for every new BW, there is a team of us who has already walked the path you are on right now.
Someday, you will be posting to a newly betrayed wife, and telling her that SHE can make it through. Believe that - because it is true.
Thank You schoolbus, I needed that right about now. I hung up on WH just a few minutes ago because I didn't like one of his answers. I just don't want to talk to him right now. I am angry....again.....
There is something I would like to add to Dr. Harley's concepts that might help you. There are several actual types of affairs and he refuses to go into detail for his own reasons. Most folks don't need the detail I am about to give you, but I think you do.
There are guys and gals who have affairs out of entitlement. They think they can get away with it and a lot of them are serial predators who give not one hoot about their spouses.
Another type (and there are others) sorta falls into an affair more by accident than on purpose (I can send you to the 15 Steps to an Affair thing) and that type almost always has two things in common. The first is that they rebond with their family even more than they were before once the affair is dead. Secondly, they usually thought well of their affair partner AT THE TIME, because that is their nature.
I have had folks tell me they would prefer that their spouse would have had an entitlement affair, with no emotional bond. I go "Oh yea!" How soon do you think they will get an itch and do it again?
The one with empathy will almost never, ever do it again and will work real hard for redemption and recovery and often be a much better partner than before. There is way more hope and promise with the guy who has a heart than one who is heartless.
Okay so here it is, I thought that my husband could not ever do something like this, mainly because he went thru it himself when I met him. He was married young, 3years, with a WW who didn't want to stay married. That is when we met. Over the years I have seen him turn into someone with heart, morals, respect. That all went out the window this last deployment...I can't say that I can accept any responsibility for that. I don't know what happened, why he was able to do what he did, and know that it was wrong but kept doing it. Will there ever be an answer...who knows....All I know is that several times, I was home, with 2 kids, the house, full time job, and the responsibility of keeping things strait while he was gone. He has no excuse for doing what he did.....I am so angry right now I can barely stand it.....In the long run....i love him....why does this have to be so hard!!
One more thing. I want to share my personal mantra with you that I have practiced for years. I am a sinner. I don't like being a sinner, so I have adjusted and changed over the years to not be one. But I am one because the seeds are within all of us.
Any relationship I have is going to be with someone just like me, a sinner. If someone tells me they have never done something wrong, I a) know they are a liar, and b) can't imagine how I could ever live up to that level of High Minded arrogance.
I prefer a relationship with someone who has got it wrong, realized it and fixed what was wrong in themselves to preclude them ever doing it again. I like that better than a relationship with someone who has never had to challenge a mistake they made and grow accordingly. I would always worry that the one without sin would wake up one fine morning and cause me more problems than I want in my life.
It is often said on this site that the person who says they would never have an affair is the one most likely to go there.
In my view, the probability of BH having an affair in his future is somewhere between never going to happen and zero. He has been to the mountain and the mountain fell on his sorry ar^se and he wants no part of it in his future. That is a pretty good place to be. Some better than a guy who has never done it but could some day. Of course it would have been a whole lot easier for him to have learned the lesson way earlier in his life, like before your watch, but there is not reset button.
He has no excuse for doing what he did.....I am so angry right now I can barely stand it.....In the long run....i love him....why does this have to be so hard!!
I wish I had a magic wand. I really do. I would wave it at you two good people and make it all go away. See, I have seen so many other people here and have been where you are myself. So I know how you feel. I had a double betrayal. My closest relative, the only one left in our family besides me. He was the OM, the only one I, smart guy that I though I was, trusted to be close to my wife. I thought I knew all about affairs.
I didn't. I thought I knew all about it for any number of reasons, but I didn't. I guess I do now. I have been here off and on for five years. You see a lot in five years.
If it helps you, I have seldom seen a man so repentant as your husband. He is the poster guy for the repentant spouse. Honest.
I teased him one night because I tend to stay up late. And he posted at a very late hour. I could tell he had been sleepless and thinking. That man has realized that he loves you with all his heart and he is terrified you will throw him under the bus.
And he accepts that you may very well do that and he knows that he has nobody to blame but himself.
Keep reading and learning. I can tell you that we have couples on here now and in the past that have stronger and more loving relationships now than they did before one of them, or both of them, had an affair.
Okay, so these are just random thoughts that I am throwing out....Is there anyone out there who was betrayed and then was able to do the betraying? Knowing something is wrong and doing it anyway to me is intentional....how do you get past that?
Okay so here it is, I thought that my husband could not ever do something like this, mainly because he went thru it himself when I met him. He was married young, 3years, with a WW who didn't want to stay married. That is when we met. Over the years I have seen him turn into someone with heart, morals, respect. That all went out the window this last deployment...I can't say that I can accept any responsibility for that. I don't know what happened, why he was able to do what he did, and know that it was wrong but kept doing it. Will there ever be an answer...who knows....All I know is that several times, I was home, with 2 kids, the house, full time job, and the responsibility of keeping things strait while he was gone. He has no excuse for doing what he did.....I am so angry right now I can barely stand it.....In the long run....i love him....why does this have to be so hard!!
You should be angry, he had no right to do what he did!
You are going to have times that you are in a very dark place, please remember that is normal and continue to vent here as you've just done.
Okay, so these are just random thoughts that I am throwing out....Is there anyone out there who was betrayed and then was able to do the betraying? Knowing something is wrong and doing it anyway to me is intentional....how do you get past that?
Broken5sec, your H is not unique. He has done what all waywards do.... selfishly devestated the person they promised to love and to cherrish. Doesn't matter what his history was or what type of childhood he had.... He made a selfish decision to have an affair!
Okay, so these are just random thoughts that I am throwing out....Is there anyone out there who was betrayed and then was able to do the betraying? Knowing something is wrong and doing it anyway to me is intentional....how do you get past that?
Yes, I got it. I am searching to find it now. It has been years since I read it. Be back later.
This is a classic. Because it is not part of Dr. Harley's site plan, it doesn't get a lot of play. And Dr. Harley is not big on why, he has his flat blanket reason. It does help to read this in certain situations. It used to get a lot of play 3,4, 5 years ago. There are several of us here who can discuss it with you.
5sec, Larry's post here is very insightful. The following two things caught my eye, and I wanted to highlight them again for you.
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Secondly, they usually thought well of their affair partner AT THE TIME, because that is their nature.
Larry is so right in this respect. I can only speak from my experience, but my FWH did not see the OW for what she really was until he became himself again--my very loving, devoted husband. He had severed all ties with the OW; but because he felt so guilty about the A, he did not acknowledge her attempts at seduction until several months after the A ended.
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The one with empathy will almost never, ever do it again and will work real hard for redemption and recovery and often be a much better partner than before. There is way more hope and promise with the guy who has a heart than one who is heartless.
I agree wholeheartedly with this. I have felt since I first read Deerhunter's thread that he is of the same ilk as my dear FWH, whose heart breaks when he sees me sad or depressed over his A.Before you even started your thread, I felt a kinship with you (despite the difference in our ages) because of how contrite your FWH seemed to be.
I hope the best for you on this rocky journey to recovery.
You hold the power. BH has given it away to you with his thoughtless choice. You now determine the future course of your relationship with him. You also determine your own future by what you do today and every day. And that is the important part.
Be careful. Don't just be guided by your emotions of the moment, because the moment will pass and you will be in the future. You cannot control the past and you cannot control the future. The only person you can control is yourself. And your destiny is where you want to look.
You can only control the present. And you must understand that the emotions of the present will not be the same as the emotions of the future.
Please don't fuel your current discontent by imagining that how you feel now will follow you into the future, say a year or more down the road. And don't let others lead you into obsessive thinking. Obsessive thinking is a terrible price to pay when you allow it to consume you.
This forum is about Surviving an Affair. If you choose to do the surviving, there are emotional tools here to help you, if you choose to use them.
Forgiving is one of those tools. Divorce is another. Hate forever is NOT one of the tools because hate attacks YOU, and not the cause of your emotional turmoil. Your husband has led you to a place for your PERSONAL recovery. And that is the goal, not fueling anger and emotional turmoil.
Goldenyears is down the road from where you are. She is giving you a look into the future if you choose to go a certain way.
Okay, so these are just random thoughts that I am throwing out....Is there anyone out there who was betrayed and then was able to do the betraying? Knowing something is wrong and doing it anyway to me is intentional....how do you get past that?
You will learn over time that it wasn't about you. It was all about him. In order to meet whatever need is causing the A, a WS will turn their world upside down to justify getting their need met. They will threaten everything that is good about their world to get their fix.
Part of their brain runs like this: mememememememememe
I wish I could just go to sleep, wake up and this all be over. I can't even concentrate at work that much....Thanks for everyone's support....it is so much more than I ever anticipated...
Be careful you do not become obsessive. You can get past all this as you learn the emotional tools it takes to do so, emotional tools that will serve you well as you journey through life, and not just in this situation.
Read your thread from the beginning. Focus on the recovery instead of the repetitive thoughts that bounce around in your head. There is a time for woe me and there is a time for get to work.
broken, maritalbliss is right--it WASN'T about you. It was about HIM. His vulnerabily, his lack of protecting his boundaries, his selfishness.
Of course, I didn't see that right away either. When you're doubled up, writhing in pain, all you have are questions to which NO answers are acceptable.
Like you, my H was away for an extended time (job related). Hard to meet those all-important emotional needs when you're separated by many miles. I'd like to say that was the reason we weren't meeting them, but the truth is, until we found MB (unfortunately, AFTER my FWH's A) we didn't really understand how the whole thing worked. Love banks were low...his more than mine, apparently.
All the elements of a perfect storm. By the time ours hit, he'd had time to fall out of love with me completely. Of course, I didn't KNOW this till I discovered the A.
Doesn't sound like that's true in your case. I've read your H's thread, and it's very clear he is remorseful up front. As much pain as you're in, please understand that you are very, very fortunate in that he will not be delivering more blows as you struggle to reclaim his love. THAT period can be as painful as the initial blow. Many of us can attest to that.
Still, you will have to go through your grieving, and there's no telling how long it will take. I can assure you, though, that it will take less time than it does when a spouse is not repentent and/or will not end the affair.
Read the MB materials and stay with us. You WILL get through this. (((broken5sec)))
well, my WH had taken advise to tell me about the process of his A. It goes without saying that I didn't like it. I have told him that I don't want to talk to him, that I want to think about my life, what it was like and what it can be...with or without him. You see, him being military I have had to do it all on my own while he was gone, so that isn't an issue for me. I don't beleive in staying together for the kids sake...so right now it is truely about me and what I want. This doesn't change the fact that I love him....I do....forgive is very hard for me....even knowing how remorseful he is. everyone has always told me how strong a person I am ..... I don't feel strong right now and I need to get that back. Thank you all for your posts, I will continue to turn here to vent, I appreciate all of your input and advice.....I desperately need it.
well, my WH had taken advise to tell me about the process of his A. It goes without saying that I didn't like it. I have told him that I don't want to talk to him, that I want to think about my life, what it was like and what it can be...with or without him. You see, him being military I have had to do it all on my own while he was gone, so that isn't an issue for me. I don't beleive in staying together for the kids sake...so right now it is truely about me and what I want. This doesn't change the fact that I love him....I do....forgive is very hard for me....even knowing how remorseful he is. everyone has always told me how strong a person I am ..... I don't feel strong right now and I need to get that back. Thank you all for your posts, I will continue to turn here to vent, I appreciate all of your input and advice.....I desperately need it.
Yes, I was one of the posters who advised him to give you a timeline if you are comfortable with that. Many BSs prefer to see it in print as a way of making it a little less immediate and emotional. You choose if you wish to get the info that way.
5sec, my H exposed himself...oops, that didn't come out right confessed his A to our boys. Later on my eldest said to me "As strong as you are, I can't believe you didn't kick him out." I responded "The reason we're still together is because I'm that strong." You don't need to 'get' your strength back. You've still got it. You just need to process this terrible crime that was inflicted upon you, your trust, and everything you thought was your reality. And you'll get it. Don't worry about forgiving right now. That will come.
How have many of you been able to work a full time job, raise kids and have to remember to take care of the bills during all of this.
You'll be surprised at all the things you used to do that no longer seem so important. And that's not always a bad thing. Right now you need to remember that you and dh are your children's reality, and you need to stay as physically and emotionally healthy as you can for yourselves. That helps them. The rest just sort of follows.
You know, he says that it just happened....I see it as he persued it.....
Read the 15 Steps that Larry mentioned and read the links to the right of your screen. Affairs don't just happen. Of course he pursued it - not her, mind you, he pursued it. The hit, as H called it. He just didn't realize it because the noise in his brain drowned out the realization (the noise, of course, being "mememememememememememe")
Hi, you are right where I'm at and all the feelings you describe are mine as well. I think it just hurts so much that our husbands just aren't who we thought they were. I never in my wildest thoughts worried about an affair....my husband is an educated man who sees this kind of destruction in his work on a regular basis.....he is a catholic who over the years has taken a strong stand against others who have engaged in an affair...... That said here I am going through all and every emotion possible I feel like my whole world has been ripped out from under me. Everything I trusted and believed in is gone..... My husband is as well trying to fix things between us and seems remorseful and sounds like he really understands what damage he has done to our marriage and his family. You and I are going to have to dig deep inside and find the generousity for forgiveness. We both still love our husband's and I think want it to work.... This kind of situation rips us apart on a lot of levels within ourselves but look at it as an opportunity to be better women..... I trying to look at it this way, I've always wanted a great relationship with my husband and this might be my chance to fix what was wrong and really make it a great place to be for the rest of my life....... I hate that a part of him belongs to someone else now. I understand no marriage is perfect and maybe if this hadn't happened it wouldn't have opened the doors for us. I know it's tough but I've read your husband's posts as well and he sounds like he could be that man for you....
hey Larry I tried to open up the link to the 15 steps so I could read it, couldn't do it could you try sending it agin......I'm assuming in your post you think I should read it. I'm like a sponge these days.....eveything and anything I can get my hands on
If you are angry over the affair in general, well, you have a right to that. That anger will ebb and flow. Sometimes it will be there when you wake up, and be there when you go to sleep, too. Other times, it won't visit for a week or so. Sometimes, you can point to why it is triggered, and other times, well, who knows? It's the nature of our predicament.
As for the other kind of anger, when it comes as the result of discussing the "relationship" or the A:
You won't always like his answers.
He won't always like your questions.
This may sound absolutely crazy, but it isn't necessarily in the agreements, in the "liking" of answers, that we have rebuilt our marriage.
It was in the honesty of the answers. It was the honesty that really brought us together - not what I liked about what he said, but what I did with what he said, and vice-versa, that made the difference in how we recovered.
There was so much in the early days of recovery that I wanted to know from my husband. I was asking the same questions that you are asking. Why did he do this? What was wrong with me as a wife? Why couldn't he just talk to me about our problems? Was there something wrong with me as a person? Has he always felt this way, does he want a different wife, is there even one crumb of me that he wants......?????????
The devasation of "me" was in there. That alone was crushing. Add to it the devastation of what I saw, we saw, as "our relationship". Then, on top of that, the rear-view mirror effect, looking back at all the time together, what that all meant, and trying to reconcile what I knew then with what I had come to know - the AFFAIR.
Push that all forward, and wondering about the future of the marriage, "us", "me", and who knew.
To add to the mix, I had questions about the affair as a stand-alone entity; what was it about, who was "she" to my H, and what happened step-by-step in that....along with a million other questions.
Betrayed spouses have lots of shakiness under their feet that lead to what feels like no foundation at all.
Yet, to rebuild, the two of you have to begin with a few basic things. Each has to believe in the idea that the marriage CAN be recovered (with hard work). Also, you both have to understand that honesty is one of the pillars you will work with. The Harleys fill in the rest of the pillars - emotional needs, POJA, and the rest.
It is the honesty that the two of you can really work on right away. While it is very hard to hear what happened, or his criticisms, or his emotions, or any hard truth, the fact is that the truth is one major foundation you want in your marriage, as much as it may hurt.
You deserve to know the truth of your life. To try to build your life on fantasy, or a soft-sell, or a prettied-up version of the real story only does a disservice to what you and your WH are trying to accomplish. If he were to try to "protect" you by covering up the truth, it SHOULD anger you. On the other hand, if he tells you the truth about his feelings about what he thinks needs improvement in the marriage, even if you don't like what he says, that is something you should mull over and talk about.
So while what he says may anger you, evaluate it with the idea of its truthfulness. If it is the truth, work with THAT. Don't allow your emotional reaction color or cloud the hard work you are doing.
If it is exaggerated, or not the complete truth, or an outright lie - that is the time to be angry. Because not offering the truth is not working toward the recovery of the marriage, it is destructive to the relationship, and THAT should make you good and angry.
every time I see your name jessie I think "They baptised jessie taylor....in cedar creek last sunday...king jesus gained a soul and satin lost his best right arm" etc....
Among the local taverns they'll be a slack in business 'Cause Jesse's drinkin' came before the groceries and the rent Among the local women they'll be a slack in cheatin' 'Cause Jesse won't be be steppin' out again.
They baptized Jesse Taylor in Cedar Creek last Sunday Jesus gained a soul and Satan lost a good right arm They all cried "Hallelujah" as Jesse's head went under 'Cause this time he went under for the Lord.
The scars on Jesse's knuckles were more than just respected The county courthouse records tell all there is to tell The pockets of the gamblers will soon miss Jesse's money And the black eye of the law will soon be well.
(Chorus)
From now on Nancy Taylor can proudly speak to neighbors Tell how much Jesse took up with little Jim Now Jimmy's got a daddy and Jesse's got a family And Franklin County's got a lot more man.
tough day, tough night. I can hear what everyone is saying and I know that it is possible to survive this. I need me time now...I need to know that no matter what I decide it will be good for me. I do so love my husband but right now it is hard with all this hurt to see anything past tomorrow. It is amazing to me how pin point some of you have been about my feelings. It gives me hope that I will survive and I know I will....I guess right now I am just hoping to make it thru the night. Thanks for listening everyone....you are all truely a blessing!
good Saturday morning all....I really don't have much to say this morning I hope you all have a good day...I may post later as my moods decide for me! LOL...I don't like this rollercoaster I am on and can't wait for it to slow down and let me off!
Sounds like you are hanging in there. Actually, it may not feel like it, but you are doing very well. After D-day I was like a zombie at work, and am surprised I didn't get fired. It took me 3 months to find MB and it was HORRIBLE until I came here.
Remember to take good care of yourself. Try to get out and exercise or go get a pedicure, or whatever makes you feel good. This stuff is very draining.
Broken- I too was a basket case at work. I work in retail, at customer service. I really need to keep my emotions in check when I am getting yelled at by someone. I didn't do so well when I was crying all of the time. I cried in the shower, in the car, in bed, at work. It was ridiculous. It made me feel better after a while though.
Hang tough. It's a long ride and I am sure that you can get there. You have the first part, a remorseful WS. That is a great start. You have found MB and that is the best chance you have to recover. You are doing marvelous.
What you need to know is that what you are feeling is NORMAL.
You aren't going crazy. The crying and mood swings are a normal reaction to what has happened in your life.
The other thing that is important to think about is that the time to make big decisions is NOT NOW.
Your mind and heart are not in the place for big life decisions. Give yourself time to do that - time to heal, to recover your sense of self and place and time. Especially the time to recover the sense of what your marriage really was at one time - and that sense of what the future could be with a committed effort between the two of you.
That kind of decision and that kind of emotional investment can't be made when you are crazy with pain and heartache.
You are right about "me" time. Include in that some time for your husband to try to help you recover. Let that option be open for him - to close that door altogether and not let him at least try to help you in your time of need might be something that you look back on and wish you had done differently.
Finally, there is one thing to know about this entire recovery process. Whether you decide to stay with your husband or to divorce and move on without him, you will STILL have to recover from the affair. The rollercoaster is not much different in terms of emotionality. The pain and heartach will remain. The questions will remain. The trail of ashes will remain.
The difference will be whether or not you emerge married or single, and that is only for you to decide.
Today I talked to WH and let him know that even with all the blasting I have given him over his "coming clean" letter that I wasn't giving up. I love him, and I told him that I love him. don't know if you all know this but a week after I found out he left for another state to start a new job. One where we were both going to be heading too. I at first decided that I wasn't going to go but I realize that I want to see him and let him hold me when I cry. I also want to hit him sometimes too and that would be better if he was close!! j/k. I am not ready to give up on my marriage...I do however have a lot of healing to do and he says that he is ready for it all. So Yeah for us...for now. I know I will be guarded for a while but we both have our eyes wide open and hopefully with all of your help we will prevail!
Why is that pepperband? I know exactly what you mean though.
Well, pretense is gone. Assumptions are gone too. There is conflict, especially internal conflict inside yourself. All these changes are draining, and they are also exciting. You have no idea what is next. Danger and drama have replaced boring, complacent, dependable, and predictable.
There is a sort of freedom when the usual niceties are suddenly stripped away. A rawness. It hurts, but it is also exciting. You will learn a lot about yourself in the coming months.
There is a sort of freedom when the usual niceties are suddenly stripped away. A rawness. It hurts, but it is also exciting. You will learn a lot about yourself in the coming months.
I spent some time posting to your H over the weekend. I'm trying to give him some action steps he can take. I hope some of these things have some return for you in the months to follow.
One of the hardest things for a repentant wayward is coming to grips with the depth of the destruction that they have created. This too is a process.
I would recommend that you and your H have a few days together that he answers every question that you may have. The most difficult part of the "Radical Honesty" after an affair is you not exploding and/or shutting down and ignoring H every time he answers your questions honestly.
Dr. Harley says, you should thank your spouse every time they tell you the truth, even when it hurts. My wife never thanked me, but she didn't punished me either(well she did scream a few times)! But I do "get" what the good Dr. is trying to say. If we punish our spouse when they are honest they are likely to go back to the habit of lying. If we thank our spouse, they are likely to continue the behavior we really desire, one of openness and honesty.
Schoolbus wrote you a beautiful post Saturday, I hope you'll read it again when you can.
Today I talked to WH and let him know that even with all the blasting I have given him over his "coming clean" letter that I wasn't giving up. I love him, and I told him that I love him. don't know if you all know this but a week after I found out he left for another state to start a new job. One where we were both going to be heading too. I at first decided that I wasn't going to go but I realize that I want to see him and let him hold me when I cry. I also want to hit him sometimes too and that would be better if he was close!! j/k. I am not ready to give up on my marriage...I do however have a lot of healing to do and he says that he is ready for it all. So Yeah for us...for now. I know I will be guarded for a while but we both have our eyes wide open and hopefully with all of your help we will prevail!
Nah, slug him in the arm, he's a guy, he can handle it.
When BH first showed up here, he and I talked about this new job. For the future of your family, it seems to be important. He really, really worried both ways, not being with you and not moving you and your family up a notch in life. I did not get any feel that he was running and hiding or that taking the job was all about him. I got a very positive signal that he was doing it for the good of the family. Guess that puts you in top billing in his mind.
Schoolbus and Pep have done a great job helping you deal with your feelings. As time goes on, you will process and start down the road to focusing on the good things and it will get better. And yes, you need to let your husband hold you. That's coming so, calm.
And prepare yourself to hear some rather odd plans that hubby might have had during the fantasy. My WH's OW was a neighbor, two doors down. His plan was to have me move out of my home and in with my sons. Then OW would take my place and move in with him. I have a beautiful garden and the OW love gardens. Then when her husband got back from fighting in Iraq, we would all live side by side happily, and even do things together. He always insisted that the OW was so much like me that we would be one big happy family.
During an affair, their intelligence disappears for a bit.
tst - I believe that I told my WH before that I appreciated him being honest even if I didn't like it. I reminded him of this rollercoaster ride I am on and that he is just going to have to be patient. I did however write him an email today thanking him again for being honest when I ask a question.
I know (believe me I know) how hard it is to have your questions answered. But please please please do not shut your H down when he answers your questions honestly. If it hurts too much ask him to stop, that you need a break, that it's all too painful. Do your utmost to control the love busters.
This is what worked for me: Rather than have my H tell me everything at once (I couldn't have survived it, and he was prone to trickle-truth), I wrote my questions down. I waited for 2 or 3 days and if they were still important, then I asked him.
A lot of questions that seemed all-consuming were insignificant to me after just a few days. Also, I learned that a lot of my burning questions were just different ways of getting at the same info.
It might help you if you write down your questions and then ask them 3 days later.
broken, I have been reading your thread and although I cannot offer advice (I am in the same boat as you and trying to get through the days) I must admit that I think it is such a positive sign that your H is on this website and trying to make it better. I know that doesn't take the pain away, but I think that he is truly sorry. As for the posters, I think you all are fantastic. You offer excellent advice and although I wish none of us had to experience what we did, I am grateful you are all here to help.
I am still posting...some days are better than others. today I am sad. I know that my WH is sorry for what he has done. I have seen it in his face and hear it in his voice. That should matter...right now it is hard. I am still in disbelief...I actually asked him who the Heck he was while he was gone because some of the stuff he tells me I just can't imagine from him. I don't know if I will ever understand what he has done or why but I am trying...I guess the hurt is all to new still....I am trying, that's all I can say. Oh, and thanks for all the tremendous support....I am very thankful!
I am totally where you are right now. I know my H is sorry for all that has occurred. But it is hard some days more than others. I know I'm working on meeting his EN's and I need to make sure he's meeting mine.... But now that I'm suspicious, I'm having a more difficult time today than I've had.....
Might help to think of him as a junkie, who, once he got his fix, became a completely different person.
I still believe my ex was a good man who was tempted and fell. For years he was a good man, and all of the affair stuff was just so uncharacteristic for him.
Your feelings are normal. I went for months like a zombie, not able to believe the betrayal happened.
Broken-Yes, WH is nothing like H at all. He looked like him and sounded like him but he wasn't. He had been taken over by an alien. That alien may come out every once in awhile from here on out. Just remember that it is the addict alien. You are doing well and it is normal to have some sad days. Have you thought about ADs at all? I know that when/if my WH comes home, I will need some meds to help me through.
Its extremely difficult to see the person you know and love do something so disrespectful and hurtful. I never thought my H would dream of doing this. But A are addictions and they can and do happen. It often feels like a nightmare. We are here to listen anytime. I wish I started posting much sooner than now, but its better late than never.
I think that when I made the decision to stay it helped me to begin to accept what happened. It was at that point that I think I hated my H more than ever, but needed him at the same time.
I punched him hard on the leg one time - just once - on the thigh. I wasn't proud of that. I slammed my fist down in frustration over the situation and he was sitting there - it slammed him on the leg. I meant to hit his leg, and yet, I was not thinking at the same time. He told me that he actually "wanted" me to hit him, because somehow it made him feel REAL about the whole thing, that he felt he just needed to have that reality about it all. I told him it lowered me and I never wanted that.
Things were very rough, very hard for us. My H had been diagnosed with cancer at this point, and my anger level was quite high, his reality shaken, our world collapsed. We had nothing left - a shattered marriage, a shattered life in body, that cancer left an uncertain future for him and his livelihood, and then this wreckage I called an inner soul.
Then I punched him on the leg.
I was as low as I think I could have gone.
Out of that, we did rise again.
What Pep talks about is being stripped bare. Bare to each other, without any walls anymore. Because you have completely lost everything, there is no longer a need for defense. You are broken, you are alone, you are lost and have nothing...no one..and you cling only to that which you know instinctively to be the most honest and true thing in your life.
And that happens to be the person you love who also happens to be the person who betrayed you
which takes you somewhere you have never been before.
And you and he find yourself facing one another in a new universe.
It is raw.
From those ashes, from that rawness, you start the marriage over. This time, build on THAT foundation, because this time you will see every brick, and be aware of each stone you are laying, every nail, every moment.
Fit each one correctly - because this time you will have the tools in your toolbox. This time, you both will be working with a plan, and working together.
From those ashes, from that rawness, you start the marriage over. This time, build on THAT foundation, because this time you will see every brick, and be aware of each stone you are laying, every nail, every moment.
Fit each one correctly - because this time you will have the tools in your toolbox. This time, you both will be working with a plan, and working together.
Bare to each other, without any walls anymore. Because you have completely lost everything, there is no longer a need for defense. You are broken, you are alone, you are lost and have nothing...no one..and you cling only to that which you know instinctively to be the most honest and true thing in your life.
Naked emotional honesty. Not every MBer is capable of "going there". The ones who are, are also capable of building a marriage better than they dreamed possible.
Because of this ....
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This time, build on THAT foundation, because this time you will see every brick, and be aware of each stone you are laying, every nail, every moment.
It is exhausting, tho. Totally exhausting. Take breaks. Have some fun.
I am still posting...some days are better than others. today I am sad. I know that my WH is sorry for what he has done. I have seen it in his face and hear it in his voice. That should matter...right now it is hard. I am still in disbelief...I actually asked him who the Heck he was while he was gone because some of the stuff he tells me I just can't imagine from him. I don't know if I will ever understand what he has done or why but I am trying...I guess the hurt is all to new still....I am trying, that's all I can say. Oh, and thanks for all the tremendous support....I am very thankful!
You will come to understand that your H's actions are not understandable. Does that make any sense? You will come to a point of acceptance that it happened. This is still pretty early for you. The only thing that would help at this point would be for time to speed up, and we all know that that can't happen. I remember being where you are and desperately wishing I could sleep for 6 months to get through the worst of it unconsciously.
However, that didn't happen. And along the way I found out a lot about myself and a lot about my H. It was like the veneer on the outside of our personalities was stripped away and we were left with raw material to mold together.
I can't say the process of recovery has been nothing but terrible. H and I have reached a different level of maturity in our M, and that's great. It came at a terrible price, but it's great.
I think the best advice I can give you at this point is to be patient - with yourself, with your H and with the process. And stay open to what you're going to be learning.
MB, it certainly is difficult to be patient but I know that is what I need to be. I have also told my WH that even when I flip out and don't want to talk to him to not do anything drastic until I am in my right frame of mind. I do the same...I may freak out but then I calm myself down and talk. For me it's better that way. Hope everyone is having a good day...this might be a good one for me.
I don't understand how you can want to end something and not be able to do it. I don't understand that if you do want to end it and you are given an easy opportunity to do so that you don't do it....and I don't understand how you can care about someone yet treat them so awful....just thoughts flying thru my head again.....
I know how you feel. Sometimes I feel it would be so much easier to walk away. I even imagine a new life, new place, what I would do, etc. But in every vision, I always picture us working our way back to each other. That is the reason we are here its because we know deep down that we want our M to work.
I tell myself that my WH isn't acting like himself because some alien has taken over....but he is still there. Locked deep deep down under his cloud of lies and fog he is there.
you know, my network of friends and family is great...I am blessed. I have so much support that I sometimes feel I don't deserve it. This place here....priceless. I think I have learned so much in the last couple of weeks that my head hurts with all the information I am getting.....Thanks to all....you are helping me deal with the A alittle easier....
Have any of you ever wanted to reach out to the OW and make her hurt as much as you do? (Verbally) Is that absolutely horrible for me to feel like doing?
She is part of the problem in that she is a sleaze with no morals. But there are millions of women in the world like that. She just happened to be around.
A woman who has an affair with a married man doesn't care how you feel. Better not to rut in the mud with her.
By the way, did hubby write her a no contact letter?
Have any of you ever wanted to reach out to the OW and make her hurt as much as you do? (Verbally) Is that absolutely horrible for me to feel like doing?
Often you'll find when you go down to their level...
they beat you with experience.
We've had BW's here that have confronted the OW only to have the OW start a fight and THEN call the cops and press charges.
If you are on her property or at her work (b/c typically to confront cockroaches you have to find them) the cops are more likely to believe her side of the story.
On top of that...they run to the MM and cry victim and try to make you out as the crazy lunatic (which they already think because your WH has told them you are crazy).
Waywards LOVE drama and they know how to manipulate it to their advantage.
So just "think" it...don't do it.
Besides...revenge, if you are going to do it, is a dish best served cold.
Yes, WH wrote a no contact letter to the OW. Does it help...not just yet....I still have so many different emotions going thru me. I have been reading some of the books he ordered for us too and I am sorry...how can I be accepting and calm and nice about what he has to say??? Why should I make it easy for him for this to get in the past??? I don't know if I agree with the tactics in this book...maybe it is still too fresh for me but right now I don't agree.....
I love how you are able to express yourself so clearly. Your words are those that open the souls of so many betrayed spouses here - and put the thoughts right onto the pages of this site.
I think every betrayed spouse has wanted to grab the affair partner in some way and "help" them feel the pain of the betrayal from the BS' point of view.
There are some OW and OM who do "get it" ultimately. You will find them here - on MB - as FWW or FWH. They ultimately have understood the pain of the BS and they do figure out what their affairs have done. There are OW and OM who have come here for guidance in stopping their affairs, and have expressed remorse. It does happen.
For what it is worth, it might help you to know that the OW aren't what your focus needs to be at this point. I know you can't help it, though. It is a natural flow of the recovery process to try to understand this facet of the affair - to understand who she was, and why that particular choice was made. We can all tell you that it really wasn't about her, and that she was a choice more of opportunity rather than much of anything else, but that won't ease your mind too well.
Can you consider this thought: The OW is in her own kind of he//, that her own sin will keep her there? And, her sin will haunt her for a long time in ways that will follow her that you can never imagine.
If you want to forgive, then there is a need to understand the brokenness of the people you are forgiving (or trying to forgive). This was something that was the opening door for me in the process of forgiving. Once I figured out that the people who perpetrated the sin(s) against me were far more broken than I was, I realized they needed more help than I ever would.
From there, it was easy for me to see that on the levels of human depravity, I was far above the OW in my sitch.
I stood above her, if you will, looking WAAAAY down to where she was (and still is).
How could I not feel terribly sorry for this wretched, pathetic, depraved person, who had no moral basis, could not find enough love for herself nor respect for herself that she searches bars and even lower places for men, believing that THIS will raise her self-image? That, in itself, showed me who she was.
It was then I knew her true nature. And from there, I knew she was far more broken than I was.......and the forgiveness she needed from me was easy to give. The forgiveness she NEEDED TO SEEK? That part she was on her own for.
Once I forgave her, I found myself permanently released from caring about her. And she no longer had control over me or my feelings. I WAS FREE.
I guess that kind of takes us back to the topic of your thread...
School bus...thank god for you and your guidance. It is hard for me because the way my WH speaks of her she was a pretty good person...with alot of what you might call baggage...it hurts to hear how he was so comfortable with her and how he "enjoyed their time together". I know that everyone asks for honesty but it sucks....and it hurts....and makes it so hard to accept and move on. Today I hurt...but I guess that is what's expected. I am still in this fog and have found myself having a hard time getting out of it. I know everyone says it takes time....
Broken-He really has to believe that OW was a good person and not something like Schoolbus described, which BTW I could say about the POSOW in my sitch too. He has to believe that he wasn't totally hosed by who she really is. It is a fantasy OW that he sees still, not the real OW. I have seen others who are recovered state that this is normal at first and usually as recovery progresses, the WS "sees" the OP in a different light.
Broken, it's small consolation, perhaps, but this is normal, I think. Early-on, I thought of my OW in a similar way... as a basically good person who had a lousy marriage (never mind that about all I knew of her marriage was what she chose to tell me.) It was as if I'd convinced myself that I was doing the woman some sort of act of charity by being her confidant, shoulder to cry on, helping her through a rough patch in her life. That sounds so insane to any normal person, doesn't it? But that's how guys get when they let themselves go like I & your husband did -- the most vile behavior gets rationalized (in our minds) in a self-serving way, to allow us to continue getting the affair "fix."
And the fact that I cared for this person, that I felt myself (at the time) to have been "in love" with her, was VERY hard for my wife to take. I remember something my wife said to me once, in the aftermath of my affair, along the lines of "The thing I have the hardest time with is the idea of you actually LOVING her ... I almost would've prefered the idea of a prostitute!"
Over the course of many months, as my head cleared, I was able to look back and see that "love" for what it was: It was me giving in, in a very lazy and cowardly way, to an unexpected opportunity to satisfy some very selfish needs/wants of mine via a path of least resistance. And OW? I came to see that she was being every bit as selfish & opportunistic. Today, when I think of her (now ex-)husband and how he must have felt as he saw his marriage slipping away, as his wife pursued another guy, and then me, and when I think of how indifferent & inconsiderate OW was toward my wife during my affair, I'm unable to muster any more pity for OW than I'd feel for a criminal sitting in prison serving a sentence (and that small pity only because I was the same sort of "criminal" once). But these realizations don't materialize in just a month or two. It can take awhile.
If you want to forgive, then there is a need to understand the brokenness of the people you are forgiving (or trying to forgive). This was something that was the opening door for me in the process of forgiving. Once I figured out that the people who perpetrated the sin(s) against me were far more broken than I was, I realized they needed more help than I ever would.
From there, it was easy for me to see that on the levels of human depravity, I was far above the OW in my sitch.
I stood above her, if you will, looking WAAAAY down to where she was (and still is).
How could I not feel terribly sorry for this wretched, pathetic, depraved person, who had no moral basis, could not find enough love for herself nor respect for herself that she searches bars and even lower places for men, believing that THIS will raise her self-image? That, in itself, showed me who she was.
It was then I knew her true nature. And from there, I knew she was far more broken than I was.......and the forgiveness she needed from me was easy to give. The forgiveness she NEEDED TO SEEK? That part she was on her own for.
Once I forgave her, I found myself permanently released from caring about her. And she no longer had control over me or my feelings. I WAS FREE.
I guess that kind of takes us back to the topic of your thread...
Wow, Schoolbus, your words are amazing!!!!! I think every FBS needs to read this... You are an inspiration to all of us.
Probably the second most difficult series of posts I have ever engaged in here were with a person who was REALLY in love with his OW. YOUR husband WASN'T and ISN'T. Trust me, I know the signs. Gloveoil has done a very, very nice job of explaining it. Read and believe because it is all true.
See, we are taught by Dr. Harley that the seeds of adultery are in all of us. And as you look around here and at life in general, you notice the Pastor, the plumber, the candlestick maker have all given in to the inner voice of stupid with predictable consequences they ignore until it bites them. It is what it is. And it is as Dr. Harley has said.
The seeds of adultery are in all of us.
That is a wonderful concept and it explains how this really fine person we trusted could become a person kidnapped by aliens.
I saw something on another thread I want share with you:
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I do, however, think it's important to consider who this woman is and not just write her off as completely manipulative and cold-blooded to the core. She wasn't always like this - and she doesn't always have to be.
I think is it likley that you will get back the old husband you know and love and even, maybe, a new and improved version. And this time, he will have had a life lesson that I believe has hurt him terribly. Yea, he did it. And that, for good people, makes the hurt even larger.
Larry, I detest this! It's a cop out line that is used to minimize away the offense of the criminal that commited a crime.
The seeds of murder are in us all. The seeds of stealing are in us all. The seeds of gluttony are in us all. The seeds of laziness are in us all. The seeds of pride are in us all. The seeds of dishonesty are in us all.
The seeds of faithfulness are in all of us as well!
What Dr. H teaches is that given the "right" circumstances, in his opinion, all of us are capable of having an affair......
Doesn't mean we all will! But those of us who do should not EVER use this as an excuse!
B5S's H has a lot of work he needs to do. He can never make right the wrongs, but he can provide just compensation beyond just a NC letter.
5sec, GloveOil is my 'go-to' guy when it comes to getting insight on the WH's mind. Read his posts carefully and you'll learn much.
5sec
We BS's have to love a FWH who truly gets it and calls a spade a spade. GO is a source of comfort to all of us with his fearlessness in sharing what it's like in the WH's mind. Then he goes a step further and tells us what a real man does after he has crushed the person he promised to love and protect.
Hey all....Do you really think being seperated is a bad thing? I mean, you don't have that comfort to fall into and you get time to think about things. Sometimes good, sometimes bad....but at least it isn't clouded with the comfort of what you once had...because that is all gone now. As you all know I have an extreme ride going now and I am wondering if right now I am not better off alone to evaluate me. I go from such extremes that it scares me....I know this all takes time but I am getting alittle tire of it. I feel weak, broken and so indecisive (sp?). What questions should I be asking myself about my spouse that will help me decide what to do? Is there anything specific that helped any one of you?
Hey all....Do you really think being seperated is a bad thing? I mean, you don't have that comfort to fall into and you get time to think about things. Sometimes good, sometimes bad....but at least it isn't clouded with the comfort of what you once had...because that is all gone now. As you all know I have an extreme ride going now and I am wondering if right now I am not better off alone to evaluate me. I go from such extremes that it scares me....I know this all takes time but I am getting alittle tire of it. I feel weak, broken and so indecisive (sp?). What questions should I be asking myself about my spouse that will help me decide what to do? Is there anything specific that helped any one of you?
Suggestion:
From what I gather from BH, I believe you could afford to talk to Jennifer or Steve at the coaching center. Because of your circumstance, it is gonna be a couple of months before you can be in one spot, if I understand.
I think you need a custom plan. You sound very, very lost right now. And in that state, decisions become very hard to make. All I have ever heard is how great they are.
Hey all....Do you really think being seperated is a bad thing?
There is a short list of things that Dr. Harley finds uncompromisable for marital recovery. One of them is that a couple needs to spend a minimum of 15 hours of undivided attention time together per week (20 - 30 hours per week if one or both is dissatisfied with the marriage) meeting each other's intimate emotional needs (affection, sexual fulfillment, conversation, and recreational companionship) in order to be in love. He won't even counsel a couple that won't agree to this. (Although if they agree but can't figure out how to do it yet, he will counsel them to help them figure out how to do it.)
This is, ultimately, indispensable. Does the separation help you spend 15 (or more) hours together alone each week?
Another policy Dr. Harley follows in his own marriage and strongly recommends for any other couple is to never spend the night apart. Does the separation help you accomplish this?
@ Larry, I AM very lost right now....and not a whole lot I can do about it. WH will be back in a couple of weeks so we will see what happens then.
Dear lady, I understand. I would bet there will be lots of tears and hugs when the two of you get together. At least I hope so. I can feel the pain from both of you.
Markos is right. On the other hand, what about all of those military deployments? Your situation is not uncommon, just very, very stressful. And you are not alone in that. Maybe smiley will share some of her secrets with you. She is expecting and her WH is overseas.
I KNOW the courage it took for you to post your first time and I KNOW the courage you must have to read all of those who are trying their very best to share and help you. I KNOW the courage it takes for you to sort out what works for you and what doesn't. I understand your pain.
Time will help. Reading Dr. Harley's works will help. Getting help from this forum is a good thing. You will get there, don't despair. I know, easy for me to say. Sorry.
If you won $10 Million in a lottery, would you wing it with your investments or would you vet out to find the best financial consultants available? I don't think you would wing it... Well you need to take the same approach with your M and vet out the best counselors available in the specific area of recovering from adultery..... MB is the best, IMVHO.
Make plans to go to the next MB Weekend and coach with the Harleys in the meantime.
You can still work on your marriage, and yourself, even still.
You said you feel weak, broken, and indecisive.
The best place to go when you feel weak - call your husband. He wants to be your strength and help lift you back to your feet. He needs to do this work in order to understand your needs, and you need to allow him to do the work in order to see his changes.
When you feel broken, call your husband. He needs to do something to help salve your wounds, and as he does this, you can begin to feel that he, too, feels pain and is beginning to understand the pain he has given you. It is in hearing your pain and helping you rise again that he will gain a view of his true disastrous burning of the marriage, and know the work he must do to make reparations to you. It is in helping you through the pain that you can once again feel his love coming toward you, and sense that man you once loved and trusted. Allow him to help you when you feel so broken.
When you feel indecisive, call your husband. Tell him of your feelings, so he can reassure you of his steadfast love and desire to rebuild the marriage. So he can once again tell you of his remorse and determination to do whatever it takes to make the changes he needs to make, and to help you through the roughest time in your life. So that you can hear his voice and you can allow yourself that indulgence - to ask that question, get a fix of his love, to pretend to feel his arms around you - whatever it is that you need of him. Just so that he can make that temporary fear go away, and he can help that indecision fade enough and you can get your feelings back on track.
All of this is part of the rollercoaster ride. Don't ride it alone. Your husband wants to help you. This is the time in your life that you need someone to strap themselves in the seat next to you so when that rollercoaster hits the corkscrew curve in the dark you can grab onto them and scream - and you can KNOW HE IS THERE. Grab on to your husband. He wants to help you.
Hey all....Do you really think being seperated is a bad thing? I mean, you don't have that comfort to fall into and you get time to think about things. Sometimes good, sometimes bad....but at least it isn't clouded with the comfort of what you once had...because that is all gone now. As you all know I have an extreme ride going now and I am wondering if right now I am not better off alone to evaluate me. I go from such extremes that it scares me....I know this all takes time but I am getting alittle tire of it. I feel weak, broken and so indecisive (sp?). What questions should I be asking myself about my spouse that will help me decide what to do? Is there anything specific that helped any one of you?
If you need to separate for awhile to think about things, go sit on the porch. Or take a long bath. Or a walk in your neighborhood.
But don't, either of you, move out. You are at Ground Zero in the remaking of your M. You've both got to be on-site to make that happen.
I didn't ask myself any questions about my spouse, don't know why. I was just going day-by-day, piecing Life back together and looking for little patches of comfort to call my own. Looking back on it, I needed H there to do that with me, even though I had a number of moments when I wanted to beat the tar out of him for what he did to me.
@ Larry, I AM very lost right now....and not a whole lot I can do about it. WH will be back in a couple of weeks so we will see what happens then.
Oops, my bad. I forgot you two are currently physically separated. I thought you meant 'legal' separation.
That's a tough one. I think I'd be burning up the cell phone, calling FWH as much as possible. I also think I would spend time writing and sending letters, emailing, texting - as many things as I could to stay in contact with H.
Thanks all for the support. I have my moments that's for sure. WH and I do talk alot...on the phone...via email....and texts on the phone. He is trying very hard and I am slowly softening up. I will be mush when he comes home for 3 weeks...your all right...too much time alone isn't good....i am looking forward to seeing him.
Thought so. Time of renewal. Time of healing. And time to get to work. In some strange way, the time apart might have helped. Pep talks about that in another thread. Just saying. . .
Well, it's friday all. Hope everyone has a good weekend. I will be plenty busy with all the house work and kids stuff....they sure are a blessing by keeping me busy. Quiet time is usually later in the evening for me.
Okay, so I have had a weird weekend. Kind of somber. I accoplished some home jobs I needed to do and then on Sunday I just layed in bed all afternoon. I didn't want to think about anything (although that was not the case) and I didn't want to do anything. Thank God my kids are in a neighborhood where they can play outside all day and be busy. I didn't really sleep but I rested....felt weird. Maybe my downfalls on the roller coaster are starting to shorten up alittle??.....
Okay, another rant....why is it everything I read and everyone I talk to want to come up with excuses as to why the affair happened. It is a choice....people are in control of their lives and they make choices....why does there have to be an excuse for the choice that they make.....They choose not to or they choose too....with every bit of information they have, what is important and what is not.....uuugggghhhhh this is so frustrating!
I have had choices to make several times in the past, and I chose my husband and my kids...why is it so hard for the other person to choose the same thing???
I have had choices to make several times in the past, and I chose my husband and my kids...why is it so hard for the other person to choose the same thing???
Broke, this is why the wisdom of Dr. Harley is important for you. He has answered your questions in a way that nobody on here can duplicate. Have you read through SAA yet? If yes, what about his explanation don't you buy?
I am still reading thru it larry....I have to put it down every once in a while because it makes me mad. From the way I perceive it the one who got hurt the most is the one who does the most work to make it work.....but I am still fresh and new with all of this so.....
I am still reading thru it larry....I have to put it down every once in a while because it makes me mad. From the way I perceive it the one who got hurt the most is the one who does the most work to make it work.....
That's why my wife made a list of requirements for me to complete prior to agreeing to letting me come home. The requirements are in Pepperbands Notable Posts thread, but I'll copy them for you.
Originally Posted by SexyMamaBear
REQUIREMENTS TO COMING HOME
Humility
Remorse
Surrender emotionally before me and spiritually before God
Godly sorrow (not fleshly sorrow) (Godly: sorry that I ever had the A & did this to our family. Fleshly: sorry I hurt you)
Authentic repentance
Owns his choices and the consequences they caused (to himself, me, children, extended family, friends, etc.)
Apology for the A and his hurtful actions before and after
Confession & apology to children
Confession to extended family & certain close friends that have confronted him
IC, MC, & Family
Accountability forever to 3 men that I choose
Attend church again
NC Letter
Provide all cell phone & credit card records from this past year
Complete radical honesty about our entire history together
15+ hours together weekly
Pray with me daily
Polygraph
Post Nup agreement that provides for me very well if we ever divorce
These were part of the Just Compensation that Dr. Harley talks about.
You do not need to settle for crumbs, you need to set your bar HIGH!
If your H refuses to meet the standard you set..... then you move on without him. If he is meeting the new standard, then you get to choose if that is enough for you to go forward with recovery.... because recovery , although good, is very hard work.
I am still reading thru it larry....I have to put it down every once in a while because it makes me mad. From the way I perceive it the one who got hurt the most is the one who does the most work to make it work.....but I am still fresh and new with all of this so.....
Normal. This is totally normal. It's because you haven't accepted the A yet. You will. The day is going to come, when you suddenly have a moment of consciousness for the mechanics of the A. It was sort of an 'ah-ha!' moment for me. Of course, that doesn't make the pain less.
Also, the people you are talking to don't 'get it'. They don't understand the mechanics, so they grope around, looking for an easy answer. Disregard this. Keep reading here.
. From the way I perceive it the one who got hurt the most is the one who does the most work to make it work.....
Keep in mind that this is only true when the A is still active!
My wife had no strength left to carry any of the weight.... It's was necessary for me to carry it until she gained her strength back..... It took about one and a half years of solid recovery before she gained that strength back.
When the A is dead, it's time for the wayward to carry the load. ALL of it! And although you may not know what to expect from H..... expect much! Do not allow him to be part of your life if he is going to be All Talk, No Action (ATNA)! The ATNA Club has a thriving membership roster among (F?)WS's .... Refuse to be part of a marriage where your H is a memeber of that club!
I thought that might be the case. It is a whole new world you have found and you don't like it, you don't like it at all. Your rock showed you cracks you never knew he had.
And yes, initially, the one who gets hurt is the one who often has to do the most. For whatever it is worth, your husband is doing more work that many, if not most, I have seen arriving on this board. Maybe even better than that. If you include all the ones who do not come here but the BS does . . . small solace when you are hurting, I know.
No, he is not doing more than most Larry! And BTW when a H cheats these are not cracks in a rock... these are cliffs that we shove our marriage, our spouse and our children over..... by choice.
I figured that you, once being an OM yourself, and being a part of destroying a marriage, then marrying this same woman and being betrayed by her too, would understand this all to well....
Then we will have to agree to disagree. I believe BH is doing more than most AT THIS STAGE OF RECOVERY. I haven't a clue if he will continue. I believe he will.
You are welcome to post your opinions, as am I. I see no purpose in being disagreeable. Attempting to open up the contents of a locked thread is not helping this newbie in any form or fashion. If you write to me at my email address, I will be most pleased to provide the additional information you do not have.
I will refer you to a letter I have received directly from Dr. Harley wherein he says, "And we don't judge."
My H was deployed at D-day and it took another 3 months to get together consistently. We did spend nearly every weekend together, racking up airline bills. And we spent a great deal of time on the telephone. Our situation was a little different in that H was still working with OW and saw her every few days. It looks like your H has established NC and that is a really good thing.
I concur with those that say to set the bar really high for H's return. I did not really do that and suffered many months of "trickle truth" from H and a false recovery that culminated in him contacting OW via phone and email several months later. And then he trickle truthed about that for another 3 months.
If you can possibly handle it, attend an MB weekend. It covers all the aspects of the MB program and provides a coach that gives that accountability piece. The program is very specific and people who deviate from the MB principles do not seem to be very successful. Maybe they are still married, but not that many seem happy in their marriage.
I hope the time can go by really quickly until you and H can really begin to R your M. In the meantime, hang in there the best you can.
Attempting to open up the contents of a locked thread is not helping this newbie in any form or fashion.
Larry
Larry, I disagree that it doesn't help for people here to know the perspective from which we post. That is WHY I have "FWW" in my signature line - no other reason. It's not like I walk around with "FWW" on all my clothing - Here at home I am simply me - we don't use labels at home, or even around town -lol- but HERE, where we are offering advice to people in crisis [most of the time affair related crises], it DOES matter.
Further, there are some people that post here who would not wish to take my advice based upon my history - and that is their right - I accept being "judged" where my past is concerned - I understand that the poor choices that I made then are subject to judgment by others - Heck, *I* judge my adultery - it was WRONG - I was BAD then! Now, I am no longer making poor choices today - who I was then, is NOT who I am now, but that doesn't mean that the consequences of my adultery are removed. Part of those consequences include some people not wishing to interact with me...I fully accept responsibility for what I did back then, and part of taking full responsibility is owning ALL of the consequences...
I do not understand why someone would be opposed to having others know their history...Especially in the case of being a FWS or FOM/FOW - It doesn't make sense to me...
I do not understand why someone would be opposed to having others know their history...Especially in the case of being a FWS or FOM/FOW - It doesn't make sense to me...
Mrs. W
I have observed YOU, Mrs W, make use of your FWW status for the greater good. I think you, Mrs W, use your past wayward experience in a way that is VERY helpful and VERY effective, to help others.
Same goes to you, TST, you use your former waywardness as a powerful weapon to help former wayward men, and to help their wives. Your turn-around gives hope to many others. Your turn-around inspires many others.
KUDOS to you BOTH
You BOTH have experience as waywards, and you USE that experience in a way that is both BRAVE and ADMIRABLE. Something I can appreciate, but never duplicate.
And your forthright honesty about your past waywardness is a shining example that people CAN change, and that marriages CAN be "saved".
Your openness about your past (both of you) is very inspiring. By that I mean, you use HONESTY and OPENNESS to help others.
Dr Harley writes:
Quote
Honesty and Openness is one of the ten most important emotional needs identified in marriage, which means that when it's met, it can trigger the feeling of love. But it's counterpart, dishonesty, is one of the five most destructive Love Busters. When spouses are dishonest, they destroy the love they have for each other.
Now, I realize that posting on a forum is not meeting EN, as it is in a marriage. Having said that, I think that both of you DEMONSTRATE "Honesty and Openness" to the rest of us, by example.
Your successful marriages (both of you) speak volumes about the strength of character that comes from DOING the WORK, not talking about doing the work.
Anyone can regurgitate the Harley concepts if they hang around long enough. It is good. It is fine.
BUT, when a former wayward with a successful marriage after recovery speaks .... I ALWAYS PAY SPECIAL ATTENTION.
Because, you don't just talk the talk .... YOU WALKED THE WALK YOU FOUGHT THE FIGHT
YOU ARE BOTH LIVING TESTIMENTS TO THE POWER OF DOING THE GOOD THING AND GETTING THE GOOD RESULTS.
If you had hidden your former wayward experiences from the rest of us on this forum, you would be just another couple of posters, and not the inspirational role models that you have become.
If you had hidden your former wayward experiences from the rest of us on this forum, you would be just another couple of posters, and not the inspirational role models that you have become.
And this goes out to EVERY FORMER WAYWARD poster who has been open and honest about their past.
I will refer you to a letter I have received directly from Dr. Harley wherein he says, "And we don't judge."
Just because Dr Harley doesn't judge doesn't mean others won't. I'd like to know the context in which he said that - if he is counselling someone for instance I'm sure he wouldn't. Most people seem to judge bad behaviour.
hey all...well, I think I am going thru an angry stage right now. I try not to but I always wind up making WH upset because I argue points with him. I do apologize after the fact because I know he is trying.....but I still get the message across.... I have a phone interview tomorrow for a job up where WH is. I haven't made a decision to go yet but I am keeping my options open. Guess if I get the job decisions will have to be made....I hope I am ready....not too sure I am. I hope with him coming home for a few weeks will help in the decision process...at least we will be able to see each other and physically show that we are working on this.
broken-fingers and toes crossed for you getting that job. I am sure that the time together will be a HUGE improvement. UA is THEE most important component when you are trying to have a happy and fulfilled M whether you are R from an A or not. Many BS/WS say that they start to notice their feelings of love disappearing as the UA goes down. I am sure that there will be an up and down effect to R for you. It is a HORRIBLE roller coaster ride. THose who have gotten to the end say that the ride is WELL WORTH IT. tick with MB. You are doing GRAND.
I am speaking to WH now and I have to ask...because he doesn't have an answer....why is a marriage not important when the affair is happening but as soon as you are caught it all of a sudden means the world to you???? Any good answers out there?
I am speaking to WH now and I have to ask...because he doesn't have an answer....why is a marriage not important when the affair is happening but as soon as you are caught it all of a sudden means the world to you???? Any good answers out there?
The awareness of what a WS has done can wake them up enough to pull them out of the fog....... Then the guilt, shame and remorse follows......
However, there is never a good enough answer that can remove the damage that has been created......
There is a good thread on the recovery forum called, something like, Can working MB lead to repentance! Check it out when you have time.
Hey all, after having a lengthy conversation with WH this week he decided to come forward to his parents about our situation and then drove to my parents and told them. He also apologized to everyone for the situation we are now in. He cut off all social networking and has talked to Steve in the counseling center. Not bad for a start huh? I am going to make and appt with Steve as well...he told WH that he would like to talk to me....and after some thinking.....I agreed. Keep you posted!!
OH Broken, That sounds GREAT. Everyone who has talked to the coaching center has RAVED about how much better they feel after wards. I am glad to here that DH is on board so far.
Hey all, after having a lengthy conversation with WH this week he decided to come forward to his parents about our situation and then drove to my parents and told them. He also apologized to everyone for the situation we are now in. He cut off all social networking and has talked to Steve in the counseling center. Not bad for a start huh? I am going to make and appt with Steve as well...he told WH that he would like to talk to me....and after some thinking.....I agreed. Keep you posted!!
Hi Broken,
Your post made me cry...... sorry but this stuff really matters to me even though I don't know either of you IRL.
NOW a recovery can begin!
The only element missing is the two of you being together for 15+ hrs of UA time.... If your willing, Steve Harley will help you with all of this!
That is great progress! How did all of your parents react? Do you have their support?
Well, I haven't heard from his parents but my mother called today and told me that her and my father were there for me. She told me that WH told them everything, they were shocked (no duh!) and that they would like to see a positive outcome. You see, my parents have been together for 55+ years and I am sure they have had their share....they of course want me to fight for the marriage even though it hurt me beyound words. They also want me to be happy.
TST, I told WH that his actions this weekend showed me that he will do what he can to make amends and that I was proud of what he had done. I also told him that what worried me is his patience...he doesn't have a good history with that and it worries me about how long this recovery thing can take. I hope he has the strength and patience for it....I am sure that he will try his hardest though....I just have to keep on him to continue....
So happy to hear this. This is a very good sign for your marriage.
My parents (married 60 years) were on my side to save the marriage. They loved my husband. Sadly my dad died and my WH never talked to him. WH did send a letter to my dad saying he was sorry. But the affair continued.
TST, I told WH that his actions this weekend showed me that he will do what he can to make amends and that I was proud of what he had done. I also told him that what worried me is his patience...he doesn't have a good history with that and it worries me about how long this recovery thing can take. I hope he has the strength and patience for it....I am sure that he will try his hardest though....I just have to keep on him to continue....
I suppose like most waywards...he's an admiration junkie. His strength and patience likely can be extended by you finding ways to admire him for trying and making progress despite him still being foggy. You'll have to counterbalance criticsm with positive feedback. It's not that hard. Really it's YOUR PATIENCE that will be tested more than his if you can mind your LB's while he processes and understand fog clearing takes LOTS of time.
Have you already purchased his needs/her needs? I suggest getting in on a CD so you can take a roadtrip with your husband and listen to it together in the car. I've mentioned 20 or 30 times here why I think getting a man cornered in a car free from distraction and with a goal (driving to a specific destination) is a great way to talk about this MB stuff so I'm not going to go into all the reasons again. Just do it.
Sorry I've been gone - I've been sick, and the Internet service here has been out on top of that. When you live in the sticks, stuff happens.
I love the progress that has been made! If you go back and read your own thread from the start up until today, you can see progress. You might feel like you are on a rollercoaster - and you are - but you will see that these hills are getting a bit easier on you. Your ability to handle the curves and swings are getting better. There is something to be said for what your H has been doing. While you feel like you are doing most of the work, you have to give him some credit for what he has done, too.
There are so many situations where the WS does absolutely NOTHING. And I do mean NOTHING.
Your H has exposed the A to the parents, he has gone to the counseling center, and he is here for help. Those steps are big steps, and they are tough. Look at those as his "work" - and try to see that as his attempt to build a foundation.
Your work is hard, also. I think it is harder, because you (and I know from experience) are coming from a point of complete devastation and weakness. What you need to focus on is regaining your strength, too. While this A hit you and took what you think of as your complete and inner soul from you, it may actually come to pass that you will find yourself rising out of this as a much stronger person than you ever thought possible.
How?
This recovery process - whether you stay with your WS or not - puts you in the position to look at your life in a light that you haven't done before. At this point, you will find yourself looking at things like:
How do I define myself? Am I defined by the relationship with my husband, my children, my family? Is the role of wife "ME"??? Am I only a person based on the role of "wife", or is there more to ME than the marriage?
And you will realize that somewhere in your life you placed your cards - your "self" - in the relationships with other people in your life.
You forgot how to focus on YOU - that is, you lost the definition of "who I am" separate and apart from others.
Somehow the affair points a finger on this - it puts a huge neon sign on this issue in the betrayed spouse's life.
(I think it also does on the wayward's as well - but I'm not addressing it here.)
So you will look at how YOU define YOU.
And in this process you will say, "I am NOT defined by this AFFAIR." You will also say to yourself something like, "There is more to me than the marriage, my husband, and what happens inside my home. I need to develop the 'other' sides of me, because somewhere I have lost those facets of myself that keep me interesting and lively, that keep me feeling life, happiness, and bountiful with energy."
You will find a new person - or more like, a newly recharged and re-energized and better YOU. Because the process you are going through will change how you see and understand yourself, your relationship, and in turn, your life.
As I have observed the recoveries (and the not-recovered, and those who have CHOSEN not to recover!), I have seen this process play out with the people who CHOOSE the Harley method.
Those who have not chosen the MB plan....don't seem to fare as well. Just my observations, since I "enlisted". SB
I see what you are talking about. You know, my life has been defined in other ways, being military you don't have much of a choice. You always have to accomodate your spouse, because they don't have a choice in the matter. I am scared about finding myself and it not being with WH. I Love him, I love our children, but what if I decide that I don't love being married anymore? It's been a long time since I thought of just myself....and that is scary! I know that WH is trying very hard to make amends, and I have told him how proud I am of that. So many emotions, so many thoughts, so many directions to go.....it is tough....Thank you to everyone though for your encouragement, it is so important to me to have you all here.
You don't have to be afraid of the decisions you might make in the future. They will be the right decisions for you, because when you come to make them you will have taken the time to do it the right way. The fact that you are here, asking for help, reading, making appointments to talk to the experts, tells you that you are looking for guidance from people who have been in your shoes - and that tells you that you are not making snap decisions, or taking these things lightly.
You are taking your time, working things through slowly.
That is how GOOD decisions are made.
So do not be afraid of making a choice that is wrong.
And so what if this, if that, if....anything?
As you progress through the recovery from this event in your life
you will see someone coming through the dust at the other end of it all
someone strong enough to handle
whatever decision she makes for herself.
You will know that you made the right decision.
You will be fine.
You ARE fine, right now. Taking it day by day.
One day, one moment, at a time. You ARE doing this.
Hey all! Well I talked to steve today. It was good. I see where he is going and what he wants to do. I still don't know if I agree that this was not intended....that it "just happened" or "he didn't protect himself from the emotional needs that he was getting". I see the affair as letting someone get in emotionally and acting on it...consiously knowing it will hurt the other person and not caring about that ( or not caring enough to stop it). I might still be in a bad stage to start this forgiving and recovery thing. I just don't know....I REALLY DON'T KNOW. My head and heart fight everyday....I love him, I hate him, I want him to hold me, I don't want him near me. UUUUGGGGHHHHH. Frustration.....
Hey all! Well I talked to steve today. It was good. I see where he is going and what he wants to do. I still don't know if I agree that this was not intended....that it "just happened" or "he didn't protect himself from the emotional needs that he was getting". I see the affair as letting someone get in emotionally and acting on it...consiously knowing it will hurt the other person and not caring about that ( or not caring enough to stop it). I might still be in a bad stage to start this forgiving and recovery thing. I just don't know....I REALLY DON'T KNOW. My head and heart fight everyday....I love him, I hate him, I want him to hold me, I don't want him near me. UUUUGGGGHHHHH. Frustration.....
Normal. And you know what? He REALLY didn't think about its affect on you. Isn't that crazy? It's wayward-thought. My FWH didn't think it would hurt me! He didn't think it was "that big a thing."
I am sorry, broken. They are crazy - and they don't think. That is why we can never figure out the "why". There just isn't a rational why - except that their boundaries were bad, and they allowed it to happen. They say crazy things, and they do crazy things!
You have come to a good place, and are taking good steps.
It is clouded in a manner so that they can justify their own wrongdoing. I can kind of explain the thought process - not that it will help in the healing any, and no, it will NOT make the pain go away, but it might help you understand how the thinking gets so skewed and so messy that somewhere in there it makes some kind of "sense" to the person in the affair.
From the outside looking in, however, the behavior being observed makes no sense whatsoever, of course!
The phenomenon behind the psychological/cognitive process is called self-deception and self-betrayal. If you would like to read a good book on it, the best one to get a good understanding is "Leadership and Self-Deception: Getting out of the box" by The Arbinger Institute. This is written in a story-fashion, and does a terrific job of bringing the message home, and can make a great change in your own life. I really advise it for people who have had affairs, or for those with major family or marital problems.
Here's the concept:
Let's say you should do something for someone else. It is the right thing to do. The problem is, you really don't want to do it, you want to do something else. What you WANT to do is something for yourself - something selfish.
You have a decision to make. Do you do the right thing, and do the thing for the other person?
or
Do you go ahead and do the thing you want to do, for yourself, and be selfish instead?
It is at this critical moment that the choice to have an affair begins, and all the justifications and blaming of the spouse begins.
All of it.
Prior to this moment - the moment of self-betrayal - the person is operating on normal.
The moment the question is posed in the mind, such as "should I proceed?" or "how would my wife feel?", the point of possible self-betrayal is reached.
The first betrayal is really self-betrayal, because the issue is within the SELF.
The question is self-directed - "Do I do the right thing for the other person? Do I go against what I know to be correct and moral? Or do I betray my own values and do the selfish thing?"
If the choice is to go for the selfish thing, the self-betrayal has been completed.
Then, the betrayal of the other person begins.
The thoughts change to this:
"Well, my wife really hasn't been paying much attention to me." "I really haven't been happy for months now." "I have tried to talk to my wife, but she has NEVER been a good listener." "I have worked hard in my marriage, and I don't see my wife doing much on her side. I deserve a better relationship. I deserve someone who understands me." "What my wife doesn't know won't hurt her. If she finds out, I can just leave, she probably doesn't really want the marriage anyway, with the way she acts sometimes."
The other person becomes blameworthy in the process, the betrayed is somehow the bad guy, and the wayward is now not only justified in the affair, but entitled to it - because of the betrayed's behavior and lack of "understanding" or "meeting of needs", etc. Furthermore, the betrayed's behavior takes on the characterization of having been this way for a long period of time - when the reality is quite different.
This all began at the very moment of the self-betrayal - and not one moment before.
This is a careless change of thought. It is reckless, and in the case of affairs ----- you are living the results.
It can happen in many other circumstances, too. On the job it happens with other consequences. In family situations, other things result - look at how elderly parents are cared for, as one example.
While you are reading, read this book. Have deerhunter read it too. It will hit home, even though the book is written for the job place, it easily translates to a marriage.
You know sb, He has never once said any of those things. He says that he has no idea why he did it, how he did it and how he kept doing it. He knew it was wrong...but I guess he didn't care. He says he never thought I treated him wrong, or badly, and that he was in his own little world and thought that I would never find out. He also thought that it would be okay to stay friends with this woman....???????? I still have no better understanding....he has looked (with the help of steve) and see's that this girl somehow met his emotional needs (friendship, caring)and of course eventually sexual.....I would be very easy for me to end this....I am used to him being gone for months at a time so the adjustment really wouldn't be hard. I feel crazy though, because I don't want to be without him.
He came home this weekend and when I saw him I didn't want to kill him so I guess that was good. I also didn't want to run into his arms either. I has been nice for him to hold me though. I guess nothing good comes without fighting for it. I am going to move to where he is and I am going to try. I don't know if I will ever be able to "forgive" the act but I am willing to try and move past it. We have done alot of talking....I don't know if it has all been good but.....I can't work on it 400 miles away. I am sure I will still post when I am at my witts end and when I am extremely happy....you all have helped so much in that. I will continue to let you all know our progress.
He won't "know why" he did it, not for a long time, if ever.
Neither will you.
In his mind, he had justifications - the one you stated was probably the major one - that you would never find out. So he went through with this affair because of the concept of "what she doesn't know cannot hurt her".
My husband actually said the very same thing. It was his plan to take the secret of his affair to his grave. Nowhere in his plan was I ever to find out.
Only, his plan went crashing down when
I FOUND OUT.
This wiped out his little justification, then, didn't it?
And suddenly, all of this skewed thinking looked like everything it was: skewed, ridiculous, selfish, outlandish, outrageous, immoral, hurtful, and everything else you can name.
He could not explain himself. The process, however, is the same. The self-betrayal occurred, the "justification" in the mind (whatever reason the brain decides), and then the look toward the relationship for cracks which help blame the other.
In your case, the "blame" may be that you were not readily available to him (due to distance), and she was there to meet his ENs (and did).
I am very happy that you are moving to where he is. You can work on rebuilding. That gives him a chance to show his remorse, his love, his regret, and also a chance to make restitution and amends. The two of you will be able to spend time together to reestablish those bonds.
You CAN learn to love again.
I have been there. This is my third time going through this.
It is taking longer for me, this time. But I have seen my love returning, and each day it is stronger. I remember well my love at the start of my marriage, and I build on that when I am weaker.
I had a bad day Saturday. I have the unfortunate situation where OW lives and works where I have to look at her skanky self frequently enough that perhaps I need some sort of vaccine. I needed a booster shot Saturday, but was low on energy for my force field. She appeared, and I was contaminated.
My H helped me through it.
I let him do that. I wanted to do it on my own, but yet again, I learned that he is the best person to get me through.
Let your H get you through this. There is something for you to learn there.
Why is it that the person who hurt us the most is the one we want comforting us? Strange.... I am having lots of ups and downs since I made a decision. We are making lots of plans for the move and I feel like I just want to throw up. I get fleeting thoughts of things all the time, and it is driving me crazy. I am glad that I decided to try and work on things, now I just wish I could get a handle on these thoughts that insist on poppin into my head. It is amazing what simple things may trigger my thoughts....sometimes it doesn't make any sense as to why I think of things. I am scared to death that I am making the wrong decision, am I strong enough for this. I feel beaten down at times. But, I snap out of it and move on. There is a long road ahead....I hope that I don't decide to turn off it half way thru....I'll keep you all posted. Thanks for all the support that you are all so willing to give.
Okay, so my weekend was pretty good. As long as I am busy and keeping occupied I have no problems. Give me some down time and my mind goes crazy! I read the managing memory thing and I am going to have to try really hard. This time of year is when this A all happened (a year ago) and I still can't believe that I am living through this. I never thought that my H would ever be capable of this....I asked him yesterday if he had any convictions that he held so dear...because to me this goes against all of mine. I have always been so passionate about people who have affairs and how much it disgusted me. Now I am living with it and don't know how to handle it. He is trying really hard....it just doesn't make up for what he has done. I love him so much but I am so afraid that I cannot move past this...no matter how hard I try. I guess only time will tell..... you know, in the begining of all of this he told me he would always care for her and wonder how she is doing and always hope she is doing well....that repeats in my head all the time and I think that sucks....I wish he never told me that...I will never know when his mind trickles off to think of her...and that I can't stand. This roller coaster really sucks when it starts going up and down these hills....it make me nausiated! I know this is all still early but my god...when will it end!!
Okay, so it is getting closer and closer to the time we pack up our house and move. The closer I get the more I think I don't want to go....is that just fear? Fear of the unknown. I am in such conflict right now...Day by day, one at a time.....that is what I keep telling myself.
Hi there Broken, It's just the unknown that you are afraid of, what's the worst that can happen, you have to relocate again. The two of you have come a long way in a short time and I've read both sides, I think you have a great future together if you both try to understand each other and makes things good between you again.... This marriage/family is worth a shot at least... Imagine life without him ........then think of a better relationship with him.......I think the latter can be great if you let it............good luck
Thanks guys. I took a different move last night...I asked him to sleep on the couch and then went down and brought him back up. I told him that I know I have to try and move past this and start doing positive moves instead of negative. I know I don't want to be without him now....I just have to move past the hurt. I know this is where I want to be....and I know it is going to be alot of hard work....I think it will be great once this is past us. These ups and downs have to slow down at some point and time right??? I am now ready to help make it slow down....ready to try and put this behind me. you know, writing this is the first time I realized that yes...this is what I want to do. so, go forward......and do everything to stop looking back.
I see on your H's thread that OW found the home phone # and is now harrassing you....
I want to stongly caution you.....
DO NOT suggest or allow H to talk to OW at all! Dr. H strongly suggests against this as it can reignite the A.
If you have a desire to talk to OW and find out what she want's... that's up to you, but please do not send your H on a fools errand to see what a bunny boiler OW want's.... Truth is, all OW want's is your H and she knows she must destroy your M in the process in order to get another shot with him.
I'm sorry this OW is still trying to do more harm to you. You would think she would have enough of a conscience to stop interfering in your marriage. Do not fool yourself, OW has no conscience. Her actions prove she is still a liar and a destroyer!
I strongly recommend that you help your H eliminate any way for OW to intrude in your marriage any further.
SchoolBus, so true to say that WS thinking is screwed up and the other part you wrote about them trying to justify it. MY FWH explained it that if he had ever been truthful with himself he would have seen the fantasy for what it was, so he lied to himself right along with lying to me. He sees that now, but in the fog he saw nothing.
Broken, you are so lucky to have SB in your corner because so many wise words to you all in the same thread. Not sure if I missed anyone saying this to you so I'm sorry if it is a repeat. To me, being a Christian, forgiveness comes easy if I believe that God forgives me my sins. What I am working on is trying to forget, which if I am honest with myself will never happen. My life will always be defined as before the A and after the A. I do pray with time it will fade somewhat and not be such a sharp pain and maybe become a dull ache.
I hope your leap of faith works out great for you and one day you look back and are glad you jumped!!!!!
I tried talking to OW but she wouldn't. She got mad that WH wouldn't talk to her and left some choice words on the answering machine. Thing is....she is calling because of the emails I sent her....I guess I finally hit a nerve. I don't know why I wanted to know from her her side....it doesn't help any, actually maybe hurt worse. She wouldn't give me that....but she talked about how good a father and husband my WS is.....How the hell can she think that?? Anyway, I am still taking the leap....Not sure how positive I am about it....the hurt is still like a fresh cut....That is just taking forever to heal. I told WH that I think I am holding myself back alot...everytime I start to enjoy myself or think things are going good I start to pull back....not really sure why, protections thing I guess.
I am certainly not positive that I am making the right move...sometimes a huge part of me just wants to put my hands up and throw in the towel....seems like it would be easier that way. I am in no way any less confused or any less hurt than I was the day I found out. I ask myself all the time why I even have this man in my house...is it love???? or is it just a comfortable feeling that I want right now??? This is a huge step I am taking, some parts I am looking forward to and some steps I am not.....I hope this is all normal because I don't feel normal right now. One day at a time right????
I actually had several e-mails back and forth between me and OW. I would not recommend it to anyone. She lied as bad as he did and it was very hard to read her words of her love for my H. How they were meant to be (high school sweethearts and all). She did apologize....blah blah blah. She was all happy that I would NOT tell her H or her kids so they would never find out what she did. I did tell. Just remember, cheaters LIE, so trying to get her side or the truth is futile.
Okay, so the OW said that WH is a good father and husband. So, I asked...did you discuss us with her? After some thought he said yes......then I asked what about....and he said that they had talked about how wrong this was and that it shouldn't be done and they continued anyway.....WTF!!!! I don't know...I am leaning more foward to just keeping the family in the same state now as to fixing my marriage.....this is wrong on so many levels....he knew it....even discussed it but continued anyway....such disregard for me and the kids.....why should I give up everything for that?????? I want to be close to family and I want him to be close to his kids....as for me....I may be throwing in the towel.....why shouldn't I????
hi broken, stop talking to her, she is trying to put doubt in your mind and you are letting her.....forget it, she is a liar and will do what she has to. She is trying to get under your skin in order to cause trouble between you and your husband. Don't take her calls, don't read the emails. just stick to your plan to work things out with your husband..... He isn't talking to her or doing anything to hurt you.....remember that..... don't let her take anymore from you......look at the big picture....
JT, it isn't what OW wrote in the email...it is what he said after I questioned him. He was in no fog during this relationship..he told me that they discussed how wrong it was....he tells me that he knew how wrong it was....how can I live with such disregard for me. I deserve so much more....He tells me everyday that he loves me and he is sorry....but you know what....at this moment none of that matters to me. He was well aware of everything he was doing.....and now he wants forgiveness that I am not going to give. I am so angry right now...I could spit! My roller coaster ride is coming to a stop. My only concern right now is that my kids have a father they can see when they want to see him. I will be closer to my family and I will have support that I need so desperately right now. I am done.... do you all really think that even though WH knew exactly what he was doing, knew how wrong it was, continued to do it anyway, get mad at me when I questioned him, lied to me for 6+months that I should just say okay and try.....Not gonna happen here. Sorry If I disappointed any of you but I am done. Thanks for all the support....I truely appreciated it. now It is time for me to move on past this.
JT, it isn't what OW wrote in the email...it is what he said after I questioned him. He was in no fog during this relationship..he told me that they discussed how wrong it was....he tells me that he knew how wrong it was....how can I live with such disregard for me. I deserve so much more....He tells me everyday that he loves me and he is sorry....but you know what....at this moment none of that matters to me. He was well aware of everything he was doing.....and now he wants forgiveness that I am not going to give. I am so angry right now...I could spit! My roller coaster ride is coming to a stop. My only concern right now is that my kids have a father they can see when they want to see him. I will be closer to my family and I will have support that I need so desperately right now. I am done.... do you all really think that even though WH knew exactly what he was doing, knew how wrong it was, continued to do it anyway, get mad at me when I questioned him, lied to me for 6+months that I should just say okay and try.....Not gonna happen here. Sorry If I disappointed any of you but I am done. Thanks for all the support....I truely appreciated it. now It is time for me to move on past this.
b5s, I haven't posted much on your sitch because you've been getting great advice that I would've just dittoed. But there's one thing I want to mention - it seems like when you hear things your WH said to OW about you, your M, your family, you feel like giving up. I understand that. Every new revelation from my FWH about the things they talked about made me sick. It set back my healing. It made me want to throw our marriage out and just give up. After all, look what HE did, right?
I think conversation about me and my family is personal to me. And H invaded MY privacy when he spoke my name to her, or my children's name. Hell, even knowing that she knew and said my DOG'S name set me off! He took our personal, intimate lives and put them out there for his and another woman's pleasure. What right did she have to know what grades my son gets!
That's what I went through, and I think you're going through a similar thing - it's not just the physical A, but the betrayal of your identity. I gotcha on that. So, may I suggest you keep going forward? Okay, you can throw in the towel, but then go pick it up. Okay? Because eventually you will come to this realization: OW wanted what YOU have. All of it. All of your life, the intimacy with your H and family, all the good things she heard your H talk about. And she can't have it. YOU own it. Know that and enjoy the realization.
Broken, your husband is only trying to be honest with you, I remember and still do all the pain the truth brought into my life... That's the hard part our belief system to what we believed our husband's to be and the value we thought our marriage vows had were all destroyed by a decision we had no control over.... I agree with maritalbliss the OW wanted your life because it was a life one would want. This is your life don't let anyone take it from you........Your husband sounds truly sorry for what he has done to you and your marriage and family..... He sounds like he is willing to do what it takes to make things right..... I know you are mad, I was too, but I believe in forgiveness and keeping the love and family together, it's not easy but I think in the end it will be worth it for both of us.....
EVERY wayward knows what they are doing is wrong...... Why else would they lie and keep it all a secret? This is the norm for waywards.... And, Yes, All waywards are screwwed in the head!
The up side to your situation.....
Your H is not that same man anymore. He is not that piece of chit that he was while lying and cheating. He is not continuing in a deceptive, scum sucking affair. He is being open and honest again.
He IS making the changes necessary to be the man your family deserves.
I will continue to pray for you and your children.
I have not posted to you before for the same reasons. You have been getting great advice. I agree totally with maritalbliss's comments. My H had conversations about our intimate life with OW, to include many, many very personal things about us and our family. And he lied about it. And each time something new was revealed, it was as if it was another D-day and everything that hinted at recovery was set back again. Your H appears to be open and honest about all your questions. I kept coming up with questions until I finally had no more. I finally realized that having intimate conversations is what people in affairs do- they talk and talk and attempt to justify the A in their head by how the spouse at home behaves. Of course, it is totally bogus and deep, deep down they know it.
I think you are doing the right thing with the move. And I wish you the best.
Broken, it takes one heckuva fog for a good man -- one who cares more & knows better than to hurt his truest love in this way -- to choose to ignore his conscience. It takes one heck of an arrogant, self-entitled man to choose to take each successive step on the road into an affair. It takes one heck of a weak, fearful, self-centered man to choose to lie about it for months on end. It takes a broken man, a more humble man, a more decent man, to be able to look the one, whom he swore to protect above anyone, in the eye and tell her the awful truths about his choices and to put himself at her mercy.
Your husband has been all of these men. You now know which he was a year ago. Which is he today?
I have read DH71's thread, and tried to offer him some support.
I am going to post to you my Dday:
I am LG, my BS is Flamingo.
Quote
10 minutes later, my cell phone vibrates. It's Flamingo. I don't answer it. 5 minutes later, other call. I realize something's up. I walk out of the meeting, talking to Flamingo.
F> LG, I just got a call and a woman said "I don't deserve him!" and hung up. LG> What? F> she repeated it, and then said: What's going on? LG> Don't worry, I'll take care of it. (Mr Fixer....)
I then listened to the message that Flamingo had left.
That was the most amazing and powerful ILU that Flamingo ever said to me. I saved that message as long as I could, and then one day, without notice, Verizon deleted it. I saved it over a year. Da@n Verizon.
THE cat was out of the bag.
Flamingo suspected, and thought it was someone else, for about a year.
She calls me at the office. Let meet for lunch. We need to go over some things. Ok.
She calls me back.
I'm committed now. I understand a little bit about MB. And I also know I have been lying for a very long time. I personally vow to myself, I will answer any question, with complete honesty.
F> LG, how long has this been going on? LG> 5 years. F> 5 YEARS!, OMG! Any Children? LG> No Children. F> OMG!, LG, how could you? LG> silence. F> OMG, She hangs up.
Just after that, OW calls me, she's on her way. She was at the park, and I wasn't there, what's going on?
LG> It's over. No more Lies. OW> How could you! LG> I think you know why now, for sure. OW> BUT YOU WERE OUT OF THE HOUSE! LG> Yes, BUT SHE CALLED ME, and ASKED ME to COME HOME. OW> hangs up.
F> Calls back. I need more than Lunch. I just told my supervisor what I just found out. And he told me to take all the time I needed. "Can you drive me home?" LG> Yes, I'm on my way....
I avoided OW that day. She called my cellphone incessantly. But she did not come to the house.
Flamingo and I sat on the couch. We talked. She asked me all the real big questions first....
WHO? Any others? STD's Can I afford this House without you? Was DS ever exposed to OW? No, not directly, and you were there. Overnights?
Then we started to get into the details
She raged sometimes, but was amazingly calm. Thank you MB.
I just spoke. Times, places, what happened, She would ask questions and I would answer.
The big picture came out. She got more details later. I was debriefed over the next three weeks. Literally.
We had to go get DS from school. We had talked for 5 hours at that point. When we returned to the house, DS went out to play and we heading to the privacy of the bed room...
That's when I started rubbing her feet, with lotion. Something she really enjoys. I broke down and cried. THAT was the real turning point.
She knew going forward, that I had changed. I had turned a corner. She knew I was different, but she just didn't know it for sure until then.
She was different as well. MB had provided just enough protection.
I had also ordered HNHN at that point, and she knew it. I had also knew about the MB weekend in Philly in Oct 05. We signed up for it five/six days later.
Friday? The OW shows up at my office. She walks in, and sits down. "You need to talk to me."
LG> Stay on that side of the desk. OW> Why? LG> Because it's where you belong.
The phone rings, it's Flamingo.
F> Hi! what's up? LG> OW is here right now, she just walked in. F> I'll be right there. LG> Please hurry!
LG> to OW: You can go now, she will be here in 5 minutes. OW> No, I'll stay.
Flamingo shows up.
Why she didn't ******-slap OW I will never know. But she smiled brightly and sat down.
15 minutes later, OW stood up, and walked out of the office.
That was the last time I talked to her. Flamingo talked to her two more times. Once thru the door, when Flamingo locked it and F told her that she wasn't wanted here. And the next time, about 10 days later, after we had caller ID installed, she called, and F picked up.
That was a close to a B-slap as you could get.
And that was it.
Flamingo told the OW the time she called 10 days later that if she attempted to contact me again, Flamingo would call her (then) 18 year old son and tell him in very explicit detail what his mother used to do on my office floor.
Don't try to get info from a OW. They will lie to get whatever result they want. And that may be just pain for YOU. It may have NOTHING at all to do with getting the WH to come be with tham.
I posted that portion of my story to reveal the most importatnt part to you. The part about asking questions and getting answers to those questions.
I remember standing at my desk when my DW called me that morning, and I made a promise to myself that I was going to be honest going forward. I knoew the difficult and embarassing questions were going to come. But I was committed to answering them, honestly.
I posted this to DH71's thread today:
Quote
My point is that you need to start revealing to B5S what you DID talk to OW about. You mentioned two upsetting things, that you two DID talk about what you were doing was wrong. Well, Duh!, But you kept DOOIINGGG IT!
The honesty helps alot. So be more honest.
Start listing, on note cards, one subject a card, what you talked about with OW. Everything. Baseball scores. weather, Cars to buy/Like, Vacation ideas, sexual positions, about ten subjects abour Your wife, Your children, your job, her job.
Put those cards in a "hat" And hve her pull one out, and then you talk to B5S about what you and OW discussed. And you reveal everything. Where you two talked, for how long, and the context of the time, placeand what was going on around you.
Reveal it ALL. Expand the answer. If the question is: Did you go to the Beach? Bad Answer: Yes. Good Answer: Yes, we went June 5 to smith beach. We left from hometown at 8, I drove, she was in the jeep with me, we arrived at 10, and we stopped at the X diner and had french fries and cokes. We parked at the manhatten hotel at the beach. She put the coins in the meter. We hung out at the beach, in the sand from 10 to 12:30, then we went for lunch, we went to Dairy Queen, on the beach we talked about.....
See the difference?
She can add some cards to the "hat" as well. Questions SHE has. Not just about convo's with the OW, but things SHE would like to address.
Get in the habit of answering and doing a mind dump. Do this for about one hour twice a week. The rest of the time, try to just do MB things, like UA time, and avoiding LB's and other L$B withdrawals.
Eventually, the "hat" will no lnger have any cards in it.
It gives you two a way to share what happened when he was with OW. And reveals ALL HIS SECRETS with her.
Some of that truth may hurt you alot.
It appears that although you do get hurt BY THE TRUTH, that you STILL NEED the TRUTH. Some BS' need every detail, and others only the overview, and each BS is on that continuum.
You can look at a card, and put it back in the hat if TODAY isn't the day for that convo.
If DH71 is giving you the truth, then that is a very good thing.
I, too, spoke with the OW. She lied to me, and she also told some truths.
The problem was her "truths" were truths that "worked for her".
My H told me Radical Truths. Sometimes those truths hurt deeply. They were important for me to know, because I had to have that information in order to use it to reformulate the idea of my marriage in my head.
You see, I had an idea from MY PERSPECTIVE of what my marriage was.
But what I needed to understand was what my husband's perspective of the marriage was, too.
At the time he was having the affair, we had some similarities in our views of the state of the marriage, but we had some differences as well. I thought some things about what he thought of me, and what he thought about how I felt about him. I was wrong about many things! In turn, he had his ideas, and he was wrong, too. But by the same token, we meshed well on other things, and we were right on many things, too.
I was devastated by the affair. I was devastated that my H had shared what I considered to be intimacies with the OW. The outcome was that I came to know more about how my H felt within our marriage - and then I came to understand more details about his affair as well. In the end, what he had to say to OW, while painful to hear, did help me in improving myself, and in making the changes to our marriage that I must admit needed to be made.
It was NOT the way I would have chosen to go about having to hear these things. It was NOT the way I would have had him let me know about these issues. Unfortunately, it was the way it all came about.
When the OW calls, you do have choices in the way you can handle her. -you can get upset, and let her enjoy the fact that she gets to you -you can get angry, and let her see that she is making cracks in your armor -you can quietly hang up the phone and she will continue to call anyway until she tires of the game -you can begin to talk about the football game or soap opera you watched yesterday on tv and refuse to stop talking until she just hangs up -you can blow a loud whistle into the phone every time she calls -you can pretend to breathe heavily into the phone and not talk at all until she hangs up -you can just lay the phone down in front of the television and walk away with it off the hook and ultimately she will hang up -just don't answer it if the caller ID says it is her -block her number -tell her that you have interesting photos of her and your next plan is to post them on facebook if her calls continue, then hang up -tell her that you are now recording all of the calls and that your attorney is quite interested in the frequency and content of them
Take the power from her. You choose the method.
And if I were you, I would move to be closer to my H. You will get over your anger, it is part of the rollercoaster ride, I promise. Ride it out.
I read everything you are all saying. It is hard. when WH and I talk he tells me that he was happy in our marriage, that there was nothing I "did" to make this happen. He never thought of ending it....so why did he do it? I am angry...I don't want to give him the time of day right now....I want to let it all go....I am tired of hurting and tired of how hard this is. I am tired of people telling me how strong I am because right now I am so broken I don't know which way is up. I am not the same person, people I work with and my patients can all see the deep whole in me....I can't comprehend what he has done.....or accept it. I know I will never forgive it.....I know he is sorry, I know he regrets it....but he had discussions about this with the OW....he knew the consequences.....now he has to live with them. I am not sure I WANT to fix this. I am still moving...I made it clear that I am only doing it now so that he can be close to the kids and I can be close to my family....I don't think I have the strength to go through this.
I don't think I have the strength to go through this.
Then ask yourself this question: Do you have the strength to go through it by yourself, without him? Because you have to go through it, either way. Which way do you think would be less painful, for you and everyone you love?
I read everything you are all saying. It is hard. Without a doubt, one of the hardest things you will ever do. Your choice is to try to recover yourself and your marriage, or just yourself. when WH and I talk he tells me that he was happy in our marriage, that there was nothing I "did" to make this happen. My husband said these very same things. This makes no sense, yet he said these things. I wish that I could offer you logic for this. There is NO LOGIC. He was an idiot. A self-serving, mentally challenged, non-thinking, superficial, egotistical idiot. It makes no sense, and although you can try, probably never will. I am going on 28 years from his previous affair, and 5 from the most recent, and there is STILL no logic. He never thought of ending it....so why did he do it? He wanted what he wanted, when he wanted it. I can only reason that there was pure selfishness here, beyond that it makes no sense. I am angry You will be angry, sad, mad, hurt, needy, melancholy, numb, drained....and perhpas all in the course of 10 minutes. It is not abnormal following an affair. Can you do this alone? Without any answers? without support? ...I don't want to give him the time of day right now then don't - tell him that you can't right now, but maybe you need to leave the door open for tomorrow's mood...it may change.... ....I want to let it all go....I am tired of hurting and tired of how hard this is. You are in the hardest part of this fight. Right now, you are in the midst of the most difficult point of recovery - and that rollercoaster is the fastest, craziest ride you have ever been on. You didn't buy the ticket, and you cannot get off. whether you stay with him or not, that ride will continue. For now, my advice is to make nno decisions. Let the ride expire....ride it out...and let time make the pain die down, because whther you believe this or not, time does help to give you some perspective, some healing, some ability to think better. In the meantime, you can work on yourself, your needs, your own recovery. Trust those of us who have been right where you are - we know the hurt, the pain the crazy feeling the desire to just hide the need to run the screams that well up the chaos inside....we know it all too well. Yet we also know that by following a plan, a course, we made it through to the other side of all of this mess. One way, or the other, we came through. You will, too...
we are here for you
your husband can be there for you, too, if you let him he wants to be...
I am tired of people telling me how strong I am because right now I am so broken I don't know which way is up. because right now you ARE broken, and at a weak moment. you will regain your strength
I am not the same person I won't lie to you - this event will change you. In some ways for the better, and in other ways the scar will be raw for a long time....but it will ultimately heal over...you will help in how it heals by your choices now. , people I work with and my patients can all see the deep whole in me....I can't comprehend what he has done.....or accept it. No one expects acceptance . You are grieving.... I know I will never forgive it I thought I would never forgive the men who raped me. I was wrong. Forgiveness was actually the release I found from the crime against me. An odd thing, but true....For now, you do not have to forgive him. Yuo need to focus on healing your own pain first, then worry about the next steps. Forgiveness is a process, and you are not ready to unfold that process yet. Allow yourself the time to grieve first. Do not push yourself. .....I know he is sorry, I know he regrets it....but he had discussions about this with the OW....he knew the consequences.....now he has to live with them. I am not sure I WANT to fix this. I am still moving...I made it clear that I am only doing it now so that he can be close to the kids and I can be close to my family....I don't think I have the strength to go through this. Whether or not you have the strength is not the issue. For better or worse, you are going through this - and the process is already before you. The ability is within you to make educated choices - you show that by coming to this site and asking for help, asking for advice, trying to understand the affair and searching for answers. You are in a very hard position, and you ARE handling this well - better than you think you are.....if you could only see yourself from the future looking back, you would see that you are doing things the best that you knew how. You ARE doing that, and that is all anyone could ask of you - that is all that YOU can ask of yourself.
I will pray for you to have peace within your spirit . I know where your heart is, I have been there myself.
Wow....where did you get your degree? Everytime I read a post from you it just makes me sit and think. I really hate all these feelings that are enveloping me...I am irratic....Things may change, who knows....I don't see it right now.....I really hate him right now...and really angry.....and I don't see an end....but I know there will be one. Schoolbus...your words are so grand.....I am so thankful for you and all of you here...your right too...I don't feel like I am doing anything right now and it is hard to imagine that I may be doing good....it doesn't feel that way. I am however, constantly trying to think logically about everything I do and say. Always asking myself if it is the right decision....I guess only time will tell. It sure feels like time has stopped sometimes though. I will continue to come here for your advise and only hope that I too can survive this positively.
Broken, have you read some other people's threads that have recovered their marriages? Maybe you could see some similarities in them that are in you and see the advice that was given to them.
For purposes of anonymity, I don't reveal the type of degrees I have, or where I got them.
I do have a lot of experience in what I do both in my professional life, in my research, my rather annoying need to understand and analyze the human mind, memory, learning, and behavior, as well as the work I do with the disabled and disordered clientele I also serve on my "own" time (yeah, I have "loads" of that!).
But when it comes to affairs, I lived through three that my husband has had. I also had a ONS a very long time ago, very early in our marriage. I learned a lot from the punches I gave, and the ones I received. I am a quick study, and my education since that long ago time has afforded me the ability to really analyze the mentation behind the behavior.
In my childhood, I survived long term molestation and rapes by a male relative; rape by another male; as well as physical and mental abuse by my father. Had child services ever been notified, it would be certain removal from my home due to the physical abuse alone - my father at one point actually shoved my head into a toilet. Yet I found the ability to forgive this - all of this....and more.....
In the process of forgiving, I found that this forgiveness thing
was the only relief I would ever find for MYSELF.
I know where you are. I have been there. Your words here could be my own, as I passed through the shock and pain of hearing, yet again, that my husband chose to cheat on me.
In our marriage, he had two affairs in the first four years. (I had a ONS in the first year.) We managed to recover our marriage, after a separation of about 3 months. When my H walked out the door for his OW in his second affair, he said these words to me:
"I do not love you, I have never loved you, and I will never love you."
And he left.
Three months later, he returned. Unknown to me at the time, I did a Plan B......the only time he ever saw me was when he picked up our daughter. I hardly spoke to him, even on the phone. Maybe it was a Plan B to him - it did protect my love for him. Anyway, he called, and I did still want him to come home.
Then, we were both faithful and changed our marriage....for another 26 years. Until right after our 30th anniversary, when he had this most recent affair.
And now, we are coming up on our 35th anniversary. I found it within myself to get through the pain again. It was harder this time.....yes.......much harder. There are still days when I wonder
WHY?
Even though I know there is no real answer to that question that would ever satisfy me.
My focus in life has changed. I have come to understand more fully than ever that
all of us are broken some of us are more broken than others some of us are broken right now, more so than others and maybe tomorrow the others will be more broken then
if I count myself among the humans, I have to recognize that in that breath
I, too, am broken
and will face the need for forgiveness just as surely as the sun rises and sets.
I can talk to you about forgiveness. When you are ready to think about it.
You are not ready. That is okay. Forgiveness is not the priority right now.
You need to heal from the shock, first. You need to BELIEVE that you can make it through this.
I made it through. You can make it through. Hold on to that which sustains your heart, your spirit, whatever it is that keeps you knowing that life is beautiful, breathtaking, and precious.
Elegance....that is for sure. Thank you. I know I have alot of healing to do. WH and I had another bout of arguing last night (me arguing, him listening and trying to answer)I say hateful things to him...and I know he is hurting but I want him to hurt more. I can't believe some of the things that actually come out of my mouth. Then, this morning he asked to talk to me before our children got up. He was up taking notes, reading 3 different books, trying to find the "why" and to give me answers. WOW is all I can say. I can't believe that even with all I have said to him that he would do that. I do have to give him credit for all his efforts...and I do have to stop wanting to make snap decisions. I don't know though if I can see this working even after the pain subsides....but I know that I just need to ride it out. I do hope that something good comes at the end of this....right now it is just so hard to see. I'll hang in there...and I know I have to give credit where credit is due...and WH knows that I am seeing what he is doing.
Schoolbus, I have been struggling with carefully hidden resentment and whether that resentment means I have or have not forgiven my recovery-dedicated FWH. There are still however some unanswered questions about our past. Reading your beautiful response on forgiveness gave me a boost last night when I really needed it. If you can be forgiving of all those horrible betrayals, I certainly must get beyond my issues.
So, WH left yesterday and I don't know how I fell about that. It's only going to be two weeks before all the chaos of us going up to where he is begins. You know, we talked alot while he was here but yet I seem to find so much more things to ask and gripe about as soon as he left....crazy what alone time can do. I can see why the 15hrs a week of UA time can make a difference. It doesn't give you the time to think of what has happened, or feel the pain of what has happened....although I don't feel I am at the point where when I look at him I know that is where I want to be, even when we are having a great time together. There is part of me still holding back......Well, you all may have some break time from my posts....soon it will be time to shut everything off and move....I will try and keep you all posted in the meantime. Thank you all for the amazing support you give here.....all of your stories are inspiring.
I can't say I've officially forgiven my WH but because I've had a pretty peaceful Plan B (10 mths) I've been able to focus on my personal recovery pretty well. Of course I didn't start immediately after going into PB, it took a while to get my feet under me and stop the thoughts, anger, etc. But I eventually was able to get past that. Now I don't think about him as much and the anger I can control better by focusing on something else. And going to counseling was a huge help.
I read a great book that helped me a lot. It's called Help and Hope for Hurting Wives, When He Leaves by Kari West and Noelle Quinn. I highly recommend this book. They are christian women who when through infidelity and had resentful WH's. They do a great job of explaining a lot and putting feelings into words. It left me feeling very hopeful about my future.
Here are some things from the book about forgiveness:
1. "Forgiveness is a positive response to someone else's problem."
2. "You remember the injury but no longer react to the pain."
3. "...unforgiveness offers false protection by setting up a boundary of resentment that is unhealthy."
4. Forgiveness sets free energy you've used to nurture anger."
5. "Forgiveness is not a feeling."
6. "..is acting out of what you believe is right in spite of how your feel."
7. "Forgiveness is not about him, but about you. A forgiving spirit leaves you with a clean heart and open hands. Unforgiveness snuffs out the spiritual spark that propels you forward."
8. "If you have tried your best to effect healing in a relationship...but are unable to make any progress, pack your emotional bags and move on. You cannot limit your recovery because someone else refuses to go along with it....There must come a time after we have tried everything reasonable to confront our hurt feelings, when we must claim our freedom. It is our God-given right and our healing depends on it."
I could just keep typing there are so many good things said in this book! I've highlighted the heck out of it!
Anyway, what I finally came to realize is that I had to refocus my energy on my healing and stop the thoughts of WH. I also had to make sure I didn't hear things about him. That can really set me back because I did hear things and they weren't good things for me to hear. I finally had to tell people, don't tell me anything! In other words, a dark dark Plan B is the ticket. Forgiveness will not come quickly. I think it will still take me some time. The need for him to make it up to me, for him to hear and understand the pain he caused me, has dissipated a lot. Me being right in his eyes is not going to make me whole anyway. And I don't have any reason to believe my WH will ever repent or feel remorse. I just turn it over to God to handle for me. I'm willing to forgive and I'm going to just let God show me how.
not a good morning today. How can someone wake up and feel horrible the second they do? It is amazing to me that I can do absolutely nothing but wake up in the morning and be so sad that I have to cry. I sit down and talk to myself...tell myself to let it go and to think of something else...like the move...then that doesn't really thrill me either....I mean, I am glad about moving, at least I made the decision to do that, but I am leaving so much here....It all does seem to be going alot easier (emotional wise) but I am still no where near making a decision on my marriage. why am I haveing such a difficult time with that? I am so lost, so alone (or at least feel that way, I know I am not alone)I have already contacted some therepist where I am moving and plan on doing something as soon as I get there. My brain is so twisted with different things I can't stand it. ( I guess I just answered why it is so hard huh? LOL ) have a good day folks....it's going to be a long one for me.
Hey broken, Hang in there girl, we all have bad days and days of doubt.... Try to look at the positives today, even if they are small, hang on to them. Tomorrow will be better.......... Time is the answer here..........
Okay, so I am now officially done work and I have been putting things aside that we are going to need to live off of until we settle in. I threw away stuff that my husband brought back from his deployment when the affair happened. I am sitting here thinking that it will never ever be the same, I will not feel the same for him and I will never look at him the same. Everyone says that it could be better, it will be better if we try....I really hope that is true....I have so much on my plate right now that I don't even want to think of anything...I am too focused right now on packing, moving and keeping the kids sane through all of this. Oh, btw, I hope everyone has a safe holiday weekend.....
I did have a safe holiday weekend, since ours was last week,
Broken, you are of course going to feel all sorts of feelings. This isn't a sprint. Recovery takes 2-5 years. You seem to be doing a lot of things right. I thank you for sharing. I am sure you are helping a lot of others with your feelings and posts.
okay, so....we are all here together. Kids are having a hard time with the move...they had so much freedom at our home and now life is turned upside down...so many stressors on top of the A that it seems almost impossible to work on us....I know we have to make time though....I guess we will see what happens....
Every day will get easier, take it slow, just enjoy each other and the kids.... Make sure you take the time to do some fun things together with the kids and by yourselves..... Kids bounce back quickly......won't take them long, all they care about is that their family is all there together..... Keep us posted........good luck
slowly starting to put the past in the past. There is so much I want to do but it is all on hold right now because we aren't really sure where we will be living yet. I still have my moments of bad thoughts but I am trying hard to not let this A define my marriage. I (and we) still have alot of work to do but I think it is going to be fine....time will help....Hope everyone is doing well...so far here it is okay. take care all....
staying positive and finding forgiveness will give you great peace of mind... I think you have an opportunity to make this marriage the best one for both of you. keep yourself busy when you mind drifts I clean something to distract myself......my house has never been cleaner.....haha!!! Glad you are feeling better about things and that part will get better as more time passes.....
Broken, I was thinking about you this morning and I was going to search for your thread. I am glad that you were able to update us. I am super happy for you. This forum is here whenever you ne to vent.
Hey everyone...it has been some time since I have been here. Well, here is an update....DH71 was gone for 3 weeks...on a trip for work...last one hopefully. It was hard....I have seen a therapist 2x and really like the guy...recommended by a friend...anyway...I am working on me right now. I decided the last week not to talk to DH71 because I really haven't had anytime for myself to think about things. Well, I didn't miss him while he was gone and I didn't wonder what he was doing or try to figure out what he was really saying....or if he wanted to talk at all....I really felt better not talking to him. Anyway. he is back now and I started a new job. Time is now very limited....and hard to find time for each other. We have...found time though. I am finding it to be alittle easier to be with him...I get mad sometimes because I think that he worked so hard for me to consider staying with him and now that I have decided to try he has stopped. He still tries really hard for me not to do much around the house or with the kids but that isn't what I want..I want his friendship, his thoughts and feelings..but when he gives it too me I am not sure I can handle it. Usually it is about how much he loves me, needs me and the kids, and doesn't want to do without us. so, still a roller coaster going on...just not as steep of hills anymore. I am really now going thru some feelings if I really like him or not...has what he's done changed how I feel....it is amazing how back and forth you go.....I know it will take time....and I know that I don't have to make any decisions.....it would just be nice to be secure again....know where the future is headed.....or at least what I want.....I am not angry anymore.....very disappointed....don't know if I am even that hurt anymore..... Anyway....I hope everyone is doing well....you have all been a big support to me at the begining of my troubles and I pop in often to see what is going on.....you guys are blessings to alot of people and we are all fortunate that you are here. Take care and I will update again soon.
You're coming up on the six-month mark. Your feelings are pretty normal, if that helps any. You need to watch for another angry phase soon. It happens. You might go through a phase where you think, "How come I have to do this work, and he gets off scot-free?"
Only the WS doesn't really get off scot-free. They battle their own demons, and they are working a very different timeline. Know that.
I understand that sense of not feeling filled - because you are not getting that one question answered, are you? That question, "WHY????" It is the big one, and there doesn't seem to be an answer that fully hits it out of the park for you. Only these vague things, these little things here and there....maybes....and then not really any one thing that answers it for you.
And no, you won't really "like" him at times. He has done something to really hurt you. It colors how you look at him for a long time. It makes other things seem gray, things that used to be bold and clear about him. That part does fade, as you allow him to meet your needs, and as you also work to meet his.
Even when you do not want to meet his. It is part of the process of recovery. Even when we are empty, part of refilling ourselves seems to be in the giving.
If what your FWH is doing is not what you need, go back to the ENs, and tell him. He needs to know that - because he cannot fix what he doesn't know is broken. Be specific about what you need.
Another book to try doing together is Relationship Rescue. My H actually did it with me, and it helped us reconnect. Do the work in it. You two can learn a lot about each other, in small increments, because I know you don't have lots of time!
Okay, so I have had a bad week and it has been a while since I have posted. Shouldn't I be feeling somewhat better by now? I don't feel like I have improved at all...and all my doubts are coming back hard and strong!! I am begining to think that I have made the biggest mistake of my life, leaving my life in our previous residence.....I felt like a kid last night, all I told DH is that I wanted to go home...just walk away from it all...so why am I not doing it? I have been so depressed lately, I just want to go to sleep and not wake up till it is all over with (the pain that is, not my life). All this is so frustrating!
I am so sorry you are feeling down right now. I can tell you that this is a hard and long process and you are bound to feel this way at times. How long has it been? I have heard(I haven't gone through recovery myself) that the BS tends to go through a really bad anger stage about 6 months into recovery. Have you considered ADs? I know that if my WH were to come home, I would need to go on some to keep my emotions more level.
I am sure there are other posters with more experience that can help you. Have you read other people's threads on the recovery forum? There may be some things over there that can help you.
Are you two getting 20+ hours of UA doing things that cover the four most important ENs?
hi broken5sec, I could have written that post myself, I have been thinking the same thing lately, that it would just be easier to live life out by myself. I have been feeling like bailing a lot...... I think we are fixers by nature and the things we are trying to fix can't be, we can't change the facts or our history........so we go round and round trying to make some sense of our lives and what it all means now...... We feel that burden on our shoulders........ I think we have to start thinking in a more practical way, we have to understand we can't change the past and since that can't happen, we need to decide how we will remove the burden we feel, are choices are, remove what causes us the burden(our husband's), or do nothing and just live with it, or the 3rd choice and the one I'm chosing I am going to trust in my husband until something happens, this is where I'm starting, I am understanding that I am making this decision to end the burden I'm feeling, this is my choice and I have to give it my all 100% I'm letting go of what I can't change and working towards a better marriage and letting go of all the doubt I was feeling..... I am keeping in mind this is my choice, I could chose something else but I didn't and I must understand that things will only change if I change my attitude and let go of a past and work towards a future..... I feel better now and I'm seeing a positive happy reaction from my husband, he is regrettful for what he has done and the pain he has caused me, It's been 9 months and for the first time I feel better myself and the triggers have been fewer now that I've chosen a path instead of living in the past......... Trust until for now......start there.........he loves you.....
At the six month mark, I told my husband that I wanted to quit. I was ready to leave, to walk away and never face anyone ever again. I just wanted something to stop the pain, to relieve my anger.
A few days later, that mood changed. It was like a rollercoaster ride, that first year or so. I was up and down, and I did not buy that ticket, no sir. But I was for sure on that ride, and I had no way off.
What I can tell you from being here for almost five years is that I do know that the best healers are time and a plan.
Together, those things work best. My observations are that it doesn't seem to make too much difference in the pattern of recovery for people who are betrayed if they remain in the marriage, or if they leave the marriage. The pain is there, the anger is there, the roller coaster ride is there. Leaving or staying, the ride's there..........
That first year, you basically regain your sense of self. You realize how much you placed "who you are" into someone else, and suddenly you find that person was not what you thought - and also that who YOU are is not what you thought. You question your life, your "truth" of your life. You feel like the rug was pulled out from under you, and you spend lots of time thinking about the past - and also about what you "might have missed" or "might have done". Things run around in your head sometimes so fast you cannot process them, yet at other times you feel completely blank and find yourself standing somewhere and "wake up" only to wonder how long you were there.....what were you doing just now?
People ask you about your weight, your appetite, your health and well-being. You say you're fine, but you want to scream or cry...or maybe that day or moment you ARE okay. Best answer is: "It just depends, doesn't it! What time is it?"
You wonder "Am I normal? Is this how recovery looks?" and the answer we give here is always YES, because recovery is a crazy thing.
I can promise that there will be hills and valleys. I can promise that over time the hills will not be so high, the valleys not so deep.
I can say that a good plan, that you look at and work on, can help you regain your perspective and your composure when you need it. It can help you and your husband talk to each other, rebuild your relationship, and put your feet on a path that aims forward.
I can't tell you that it will take a certain amount of time. Nor can anyone else. It will work out for you about as well as you work on it. Love is like that. When my husband cheated on me, he said that I didn't seem interested in him.
I told him this:
If you had spent only one-half of the time seducing me that you had spent seducing your OW, you would have had more with me than you could ever have imagined. Our marriage, with just that much effort, could have been anything you ever dreamed of. Only you put your effort into someone else.
I said that BEFORE I ran across this website. One of the basic tenets of MB is that you have to work to keep love growing and alive.
It's true - that your garden grows best where the fertilizer is spread, where you till and sow, where you pull the weeds, where you water, and where you work and pay attention to the crop. Where you neglect the garden, the fruit withers on the vine.
To recover your marriage, it takes both of you together. He has to work the program, and you do, too. If that is a struggle, then the two of you need to regroup, go back to the basics, and start again.
My H and I have started again...more than once. You can get this right. Each do-over is an opportunity to get better at marriage, and to get better at loving.
wow, everyone's words are like I speak them and feel them. My husband and I are working....I don't know how I can give any more than I did in the marriage itself but I am trying. I have my moments every single day. There isn't a day that goes by that my heart doesn't ache about what has happened. I have alot of sadness around me right now...people who I love dearly going thru some hard times, and it makes me sit and reflect...yet I still have alot of anger towards what my husband did. We have gotten closer, have talked alot, as much progress we make i pull myself away just as much. Once I give alittle of myself I regret it. When does that stop???? A working process is all I can say. Have I fully committed, I think so....but again...pull myself back and try to convince myself I haven't. Time is making it alittle better......time......what a concept......
yet I still have alot of anger towards what my husband did. We have gotten closer, have talked alot, as much progress we make i pull myself away just as much. Once I give alittle of myself I regret it. When does that stop????
Recovery is a process. You go through many different phases. It took my marriage typically two years to recover. I'd say I was most angry at six month mark and it lasted a couple of months. What you're feeling is typical for a BS.
Broken, I am glad that you are still posting. We are all pulling for you.
I have read that recovery takes about 2 years in most cases. Sometimes it is shorter(rarely) and others it is longer. Time really is on your side right now.
Are you guys managing to fit in the 15+ hours of UA time? Are you having fun together? Are you laughing? I know it will seem awkward for a while. Remember when you first started dating? It wasn't always so easy, but you were just getting to know each other. Now, you have some advantages, since you already know each other, you know how to make each other happy. Keep going forward.
I see hope in your posts that I didn't necessarily see before. I see progress. I am rooting for you.
@scotland....we are not getting 15+ hrs though we do try. We are having fun togther...but after the fun I feel like I pull myself away....not wanting to give too much....and not wanting to risk too much. It is the 6th mo mark for me and I do feel myself getting more angry....and him less patient. When I pull away...he just pulls back....doesn't seem to really try, just leaves me alone. I told him that he shouldn't do that, that I probably need him more at that moment. right now I am pissed at him. He actually told me that he feels that his emotional needs, (sex)I should be more accomodating when he is in the mood and I am not....that I should let him take care of himself....I told him the road went both ways, he said I thought that's how it was going....I said not at this moment.....uuuuggghhhh....I still see alot of selfishness in him....don't know if I can live with that....really don't know if I can or want to.....
I am not going to convince you to go either way, I am going to tell you that I am CERTAIN that others who recovered SUCCESSFULLY had some of these same feelings. You are like an infant in MB terms where you are still learning how to crawl. It takes time. I am CERTAIN that you are going to have a roller coaster ride of emotions for some time to come.
I asked about the 15+ hours because they are really important. You two should actually be doing more like 20 hours until you have recovered and then 15 hours to maintain. And it can't be just the two of you sitting watching TV, you need to do things that meet those 4 ENs.
I now there are other people who have gone through the same things as you and can offer you some great advice. Have you ever looked on the recovery forum? I know that it is a lot slower over there but there is also some stories of recovery and a lot of helpful advice there. It is a long hard road, but I have been told that it IS worth it. Keep strong.
I had many of the same feelings. My H had prostate cancer diagnosed about 3 weeks after d-day, and then had surgery for that about two months later. So we went a full year or maybe more without any SF in our marriage, during our recovery time, not even knowing if SF would ever be in the cards for us again.
So my greatest fear was that the OW might be his last SF experience......thank God that turned out not to be the case.
the anger you have toward him is normal. I am coming up on the 5 year d-day mark right now. I still have days where I am angry at what he did, and how that has impacted me, us, on a daily basis.
I still wonder, "WHY?" sometimes.
The difference is that at first I wondered every day, every hour, maybe every minute.
Now, it comes in flashes.
You will see this improve, as you two work things through. The recovery patterns are fairly common, so that makes them somewhat predictable. The six-month mark seems to be a rough time, from 6-9 months it's hard for the BS, because the WS seems to feel like the time is right for moving on....and the BS feels like the hard work has just really begun because the initial shock is just wearing off!
This brings me to explaining recovery timelines. It is important for you both to understand that the BS has one recovery timeline, with a somewhat predictable pattern, and the WS also has a recovery timeline, with a pattern of its own.
The two spouses are not on the same pattern, nor the same timeline!
So where you are right now - recovered from the initial shock, reaching the point of being able to understand the amount of work to be done, sorting out the type of work that really needs to be addressed, and just now evaluating the roles of each spouse in this recovery process.....and beginning to look forward at the pathway ahead for your personal growth and change, and that of you two as a couple...........
Your husband is now looking at the present and saying that he is happy to have things more settled at home, is resting assured that he has weathered a firestorm that could have lost his marriage, and he is trying to maintain that delicate balance. Meanwhile, he is trying to understand what he has done "right" so far, while at the same time not tipping the apple cart (in his own mind) by over analyzing the affair and bringing it up too much, trying to look at the future and making things in the marriage focus there, and at the same time trying to figure out how to ease your pain and not make it worse with his own behaviors.......
Only - - - - -
What the WS usually has not figured out at this point is that the hardest work is only NOW beginning. This is really the time when the deeper understanding comes in, the day to day grind of the "normal" begins to creep back in
and you CANNOT ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN.
Because the "normal" is when you fall back into old patterns
and when you stop evaluating one another's emotional needs frequently
and stop focusing on understanding how these ENs change -
My guess is that you two need to take another look at them. Because at the start of recovery, you had certain needs. Now, you have different needs. Go back to the ENs, and talk about them AGAIN. They change!!!!
Always go back to the basics.
And remember that this recovery thing takes a long time. You can expect ups and downs. It is a learning thing.
SB...I told my husband the very same thing about EN's. I had just told him that it has changed, for me at least and that we should sit down and do them again. I suggested we do it every few months, or when we feel we need too. Sometimes I catch myself wondering if all this heart ache is worth it. I have good days, then I find myself thinking "he is already over it, how can he function the way he does" and I get mad. Why are the makeup of Men so different than ours? Why are these steps so easy for them? Besides the fact that they are the one's who did the hurting, not the one's who got hurt....I still find myself with alot of bitterness....right along with alot of happiness.....how can that be??? I have been trying really hard to make it all happy but them pesky little thoughts find their way in....and I battle them all the time. Sometimes I win.....Most times I win....sometimes the fight is just alittle longer....it's really quite exhausting....It is getting better though...I think....maybe it is time to move this into the recovery room....I have been reading posts in there too that have helped....amazing....the post sound like they were typed from right here....the feelings are spot on....anyway...still a work in progress....
Broken, you need to understand that for your WH, he KNEW all along. You didn't. Also, his worst nightmare was that you would leave. Since that hasn't happened, he is relieved. It's not right, it just IS.
You sound much better. I have read that the roller coaster ride will be a lot less frequent. Just keep doing what you are doing. Let time heal you.
Do you ever think that the decision you made was wrong?? that you should have stayed in the safety of what you had....Sometimes that feeling overcomes me so much and I just want to run....so why don't I???? What is it that keeps me here?
Thank you all for letting this place be a sounding board for me. I think I know all of these answers deep down inside...I just have to voice them....and it's good to read the advice...it grounds me. This is absolutely the most difficult thing I have had to encounter and go thru....some days it is just so hard...but I am all in all doing well...and we have come a long way.....Thank you all for your support
Depends on how good you fix the vase.
there!
He took our personal, intimate lives and put them out there for his and another woman's pleasure. What right did she have to know what grades my son gets!