Ok, I need to post my story so I can get some ideas on whether I�m doing the right things, should do more, or do less.

My WW and I have known each other for 25 years, been married for 22. I will start off by saying that I did a stupid thing and had an A myself 19 years ago. No excuses, just a stupid, selfish act. My A lasted about 2 months. I told her right away, didn�t hide it, yet I didn�t stop right away either.

Our marriage always seemed like any other normal marriage. We had our arguments about money (all our problems revolved around money), not so much for lack of money, rather not managing it properly. I always wanted to have a budget to work from. Plan for the future, but also have fun and do stuff in the here and now. My W is a live for the moment, because you could die tomorrow. This became more pronounced after she became a RN and saw death and people hurting.

Back in the Spring of 2010, we had a typical argument about the bills and money, and she blinded me out of the blue with the �I think we should be roommates�. �you always spent more time with the kids than me�, �spent more time with my parents than her (not true)�. I do agree upon reflection, that I did become comfortable in our relationship and did seem to focus a lot on the kids. But I did not neglect my wife, I always told her that I loved her, would do lots of little things to show her that I loved her. But we didn�t do a lot of date nights when the kids were growing up. Of course I realize how important that is now. However, she was a good mother and she spent time with the kids as well and was comfortable in the marriage as well. I think it was a case of not focusing on each other as much as we should have (we loved each other, just should have had more communication). That�s another key thing, we probably should have had more quality communication. I often was afraid to rock the boat too much for fear of getting her upset.

So after the �roommate� 2x4, I began focusing more on my W, date nights, flowers for no reason, we held hands and kissed more in public. Our family was saying they noticed that and that it was borderline getting mushy. My W and I had the best time the Spring, Summer, and Fall of 2010. We were really connecting. Everything I�ve read, one would think there was an OM when she told me the �roommate� 2x4, but I don�t think so. I think it was a stern warning, a final straw. We spent so much time together after that, that I think I would have noticed something. So then the Spring of 2011, my W is going out with her girlfriends more, the typical staying over cause she drank too much, etc. Long story short, she confessed to having a boyfriend on 7/28/11. The next day she took off her wedding ring and pulled off her FB page that we were married.

Although saying that we were done, she never once mentioned D, ever. I exposed to her family and of course mine. I�m at a disadvantage because the OM is divorced, so I have no OMW to expose to. Believe me, that would have been the first one I went to, had I had the opportunity. I�m thinking the OM was divorced for around 6 months before my WW met him. So sounds like rebound for him?

At one point in September she got a severe chewing out by her brother and his wife. The next day she gave me a really caring hug out of the blue, out her ring back on, and was holding my hand. Then that night, she took the ring back off and when I asked her, she said she only put it back on for the kids? So it�s like she saw the light, then fell back into darkness right away.

WW moved into her own apartment on 11/18/11. She said in a phone conversation with a counselor that it was suggested a trial separation might help her sort things out. I now believe the separation was just a means to spend more time with OM as opposed to facing her family everytime she left the house to go out.

I didn�t find this site in the beginning, so I probably didn�t do a very good Plan A after D-Day. Since I had an A and had a better idea of how she was feeling (a lot of parallels), I felt that I �owed� it to her to have some space to figure things out.

WW gets really upset that her family is on my side and against what she�s doing. Her mom is �on her side�, just because she fears losing her daughter�s love. Her brother�s hate their mom for being �ok� with their sister�s behavior. So when I do stuff with my BIL�s, then WW gets fuming mad. During one of these episodes prior to Christmas, she actually texted me, �I think we need to get the divorce started. I wanted to wait until after Christmas. But I�m a wh*re�a bad person�.tore my family apart�..its time to get out of everyone�s life.� This was the first time she mentioned divorce EVER. but I ignored this text message since she was just looking for pity. It�s been over a month and she hasn�t mentioned anything more about a D.

I�m not in an official Plan B, however, I do not communicate with her unless it�s to do with the kids or finances. Our kids, DS17 and DD14, know what�s going on. Our kids live with me in the house. Our son refuses to go over to her apartment and has not done so yet. Our daughter will go over once a week and stay overnight. That�s all DD wants to do cause she doesn�t really feel like going over there either. WW will pop over and visit with the kids for about a half hour a couple times a week. One odd behavior was WW came over about 2 weeks ago and made us supper and stayed for about 2 hours. Not at all like her behavior of the prior 1.5 months since she moved out.

There are probably gaps in my story, please ask questions and I will fill them in. One thing is my WW is very upset that the kids don�t visit her and that they aren�t more understanding of her situation. Back when she lived at home, DD got into an argument with WW and asked why she couldn�t come back to the family and work things out with Dad. DD said don�t you want us to be happy. WW replied back to her �what about my happiness�? Nice thing to say to your daughter.

I see some many similarities between my WW and other WS�s on this site. It�s amazing. What prompted me to draft up my story was something I read where MelodyLane said something about being separated, I should still pay some attention to my WW, otherwise it will give OM more credibility in my WW�s mind. Or something along those lines. That�s why I don�t know if I should do a dark Plan B.

So looking for some advice. I think my WW has convinced herself that OM is her soul mate and all the other crap you guys have heard and experienced over the years on this forum.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and replies.

Sorry about what you are going through. I was there but when I found out I divorced my wife. I was not going to finance her cheating or anything else.

I will let others give you advice but I was wondering about her moving out. Are you financing her still or is she on her own? If you are financing her activity I would stop.

Don't worry about her being mad she has already moved out and is sleeping with another man. I would not finance it. Best of luck to you.

I'm not financing it. She has her own checking account now. We split the bills, though I'm footing all of the costs of the house. But I have the kids with me, so I'm happy.

One of the issues that bothers me is I have no way of really exposing the OM. The guy is divorced, so no OMW to expose to. Can't expose to the OM's brother because he and his wife, plus the OM and my WW all go out and bar hop together.

I did manage to track down where I think the OM's xW lives. Thought about talking to her to see exactly why their marriage fell apart. From what I heard, his W cheated on him. I find it strange that a guy that has been cheated on by his W, gets divorced, then turns around within 6 months or so of the divorce and is with my WW, a married woman! There must be more to his story and I'd hope his xW would tell me, then I could have some valuable information on this dirtball OM!

I don't know if I have any choice but to just wait and let the A hopefully implode, crumble, whatever! It's been 6 months since D-Day and I've read where the A typically lasts that long. I know each situation is different, so not really counting on that statistic.

Hi stillwaiting, welcome to Marriage Builders. Sorry you are here.

I have a couple of questions for you.

1. how do you know the OM is divorced? Have you verified this?

2. Have your children been told the truth, that their mother left to pursue her affair with a bum?

3. has her whole family been told why she left?

4. does the OM have a facebook page? ]

5. have you ever spoken to this bum?

MelodyLane, so nice to see your reply.

1. The circuit court webpage for our state show his divorce was filed on 03/01/10 and the status is closed. I assume that means when they filed and not the date the divorce was finalized.

2. Yes, both of our kids know what she's doing and why she left. Of course, she tells them she left because of me.

3. Her whole family (2 brothers and their wives), know why she left and they're very upset with her. Her 1st cousin and his wife also know and they are likewise upset with her. I do not know what her other cousins and some aunts and uncles know. Her mother (my MIL) is basically on her side. She was against it in the beginning, but now she apparently has given in to the fact that she can't change her daughter's mind. Also, MIL is in her upper 60's and a widow, so she doesn't want to be alone. She always relied on my W and I to take care of her, and now that she sees the potential for our marriage to dissolve, she's basically staying on her daughter's good side.

Her BIL's and I have worked on her in the past to stand up to my W. If we could get her to make a stand against my WW, it could have a significant change on how things play out.

My WW is livid that her brothers are on my side. If her mom had a backbone and would do the same, it would really make her think. Especially since what little family support she has,
would evaporate.

4. Yes, the OM has a FB page. It's fairly locked down.

5. I have not spoken to this bum. I've asked about this on another forum and someone made a good point that he could say all kinds of things back to me. "Your wife is great in bed", etc. Plus, it may show some of my weaknesses?

Not sure, just getting myself more confused with each passing day.

I'm currently reading the 'My wife left and came back, but didn't end the affair' thread by Giraffe6.

Obviously, the best chance is to kill the A. Although I did expose in the beginning, I never exposed on the OM's side because I didn't see any avenues to do so.

And doing additional exposure 6 months after D-Day, is it even effective? Or should other tactics be implemented at this point?

Thanks for your answers. I would contact his X-wife, tell her about the affair and ask the marital status of the OM. Ask what led to their divorce.


Can you see his contacts? Can you ID his parents and family members?


Its always a good idea to the confront the OM. There are several reasons for this, among them are to flesh out any lies [because cheaters always lie to each other] and to scare him. OM are pansies so they are scared off easily.

You won't kill the affair with exposure at this point but you can inflict a huge blow by exposing to the OM's family. That will make it very uneasy for your wife to go around his family and will hasten its death. The OM is a worm who won't like the trouble and if you expose to his family there will be some who won't allow your wife to come around.

In the meantime, I would do a great Plan A. You have a huge advantage over weaselboy in that you have character. He is the kind of guy who will mistreat your wife so you won't have a hard time competing with him. The odds are greatly in your favor here.

So Plan A is still effective if we're separated? She has her own apartment. We do keep in touch if it's an issue with the kids or finance. She still stops by the house to visit the kids for a little bit a couple times a week.

If it's still an effective tool at this stage, then I will hone my Plan A skills.

I have to believe she is still in the fog. If she was really into this guy as her soul mate, I would think she would have pushed harder for a D or filed months ago. Wait, I should rephrase that. I'm confused because if we have a spat about something, she will almost inevitably toss in a 'you need to just move on' or something to that order. Yet she doesn't take the initiative to move on. So I'm holding down the household with the kids and just have this feeling that she's cake-eating and I'm her backup option. Else she would have filed. Argh!

All the statistics aside, common sense and logic tell me this A will never last. How can he trust her, and how can she trust him? For someone to be involved with a married woman right after supposed being destroyed by his ex-wife in a similar manner, I would have to say he's in it for the fun of it now and not looking for a serious relationship. But this is pure speculation. I need to speak with his X-wife.

Listen, this guy is a complete weasel who will go away soon enough. You have a serious competitive advantage here. you are the father of her children and you AREN'T a weasel!


DON'T have any spats!! None! Make yourself as attractive as possible. Next time she stops by be as pleasant and attractive as possible.

Another thing you should do is RE-DECORATE the house! Ask for her assistance.

Melody, thanks for the words of encouragement. Its been awhile since I've seen any glimmers of possibility.

Just get yourself out of Plan "C" [for compromise] and focus on doing a great Plan A. Her affair isn't going to last. And as long as you present an attractive option, you can catch her when the affair dies. You will do great!

I've been really good about being the 'nice guy' and not getting into any spats. If she would bring something up intended to start a fight or rile me up, I would just ignore it.

But Melody, your advice is just what I've been looking for and needing confirmation on. I needed to know whether I need to Plan B or Plan A her. I was getting myself confused with where I stood with her. My gut tells me to be amicable. But I also see postings where I should be fighting for her. She knows I want to work things out and save our marriage. I want to make an enticing place for her to land or come home to when/if this A implodes.

I do have a question: Have my WW help redecorate the house? I'm confused. I feel she'd laugh in my face.

Tell her you are going to redecorate and ask for her opinion. For example, make plans to repaint some rooms and tell her you can't decide on macadamia or cream puff. Ask what she thinks. Doing some redecorating will make you feel better about the house and might get h interested in your home.

Groan, it's getting late and I'm getting tired. I think I now see your point about the redecorating. But just to be on the safe side,
please elaborate. I want to make sure that I'm completely understanding any tips you're passing my way.

I don't want to miss out on any opportunities.

I just wish I knew about MB 6 months ago!

Great idea. Thank you!

Any additional help or ideas are much appreciated. Anyone else can chip in too. I've seen some FANTASTIC ideas from you and other vets on this forum.

It's very comforting to read all the great advice.

If it's ok, I will update on this thread as things go along.

For example, 2 weeks ago my WW comes over and cooks supper for the kids and I, then hangs around to visit a little bit. What's up with that?

Cake eating at its finest. You are still meeting some of your WW's EN's.

With a steller Plan A, you aim to meet as many as you can. Identify which ones are her top three, and try to concentrate on those. What are her top 3?

Don't worry if some of them you can't meet because you are separated.

Melody's suggestion of decorating is brilliant. I know few women who don't get excited about colours and making a home. Tell her you want her input, use admiration if it won't come across as insincere... you know your wife.

"I know you've always had such a knack with decorating", etc.

How is she when you demonstrate affection? I can see how decorating or painting together could be lots of fun and provide lots of opportunity for accidental body contact...

Better stop before I get carried away!

I do need to get your feedback on my actions this past weekend. Whether or not I did the right thing. Especially in light of your advice to Plan A.

My BIL invited me up north this weekend to go ice fishing. I get along great with both of my BILs, they've both said to me that I'm like a brother to them. So even though my WW gets mad when I'm in contact with her brothers, I decided to take him up on his offer. So my daughter and I went up north this past Saturday to do some ice fishing, get away from everything, and let my daughter hang out with her cousins.

Just as we were heading out the door to leave on Saturday, I quickly throw together a text to send to my WW telling her where we were going to be. Before I sent it, my WW texts my daughter asking what she's got planned for the day. DD replied going up north to <uncle's> with dad to fish. WW replies, "sounds like fun, have a good time".

Before we get out the door, WW calls DD and then asks to speak to me. She then proceeds to ask me when I was going to tell her I was taking our daughter out of town? And then goes on to say she's going to call my sister and go visit her, taking OM with her. I then said I don't want to talk to her if she couldn't be nice, then hung up on her.

She texted me about 10 minutes later and said "Sorry...have a good time". She then calls our DD and asks to speak to me. I just told my DD to tell her I wasn't being mean, but didn't wish to speak with her.

So my question is: if she gets upset when I do things with her brothers, should I not do anything with them? I think I should be allowed to do stuff with them. And I probably didn't handle it appropriately by hanging up on her?

If it's anything with affection, she ends to push it aside. I really haven't told her of any affection since she moved out, only demonstrating small acts here and there.

For example she said don't buy me anything for Christmas. So I made her something instead. I had an old window pane from her bedroom as a kid (long story), I took a bunch of pictures of our family and created a collage out of it and made a little poem that I glued on the back. Essentially she looked out this window as a child dreaming about her future family, and here's the same window with pictures of her family in it. Everybody loved it at Christmas, but she didn't show too much emotion over it.

Or this past Tuesday was DD's birthday. We all went out to eat as a family. My WW wore a new sweater and she looked absolutely beautiful! I complimented her a couple times. She said thank you. Then later on that evening after she had left to go to her place and I was home, I couldn't help myself. I texted her: "Just wanted to say.....you looked absolutely stunning tonight".

She replied back "Stop.....but thanks......"

So should I be showing some tiny signs of affection here and there? Valentine's Day coming up, buy her something? These past 6 months really have me confused and all your help is appreciated.

I need to study Plan A.

This is not Plan A... you need to learn how to deflect her fog. WW is feeling excluded from the family, hence her putting a dig in about taking OM to visit your sister. Use this to your advantage. Next time or in a similar opportunity, invite her to go with you and your DD. She might say no, she might not. If she says no, say "ok, sorry you can't make it, it will be a great day". Let her know you and DD will have a good day without her, but she is WELCOME to participate. Not with OM though!

DD should not be a messenger between the two of you. And in your WW's foggy world, you were being mean as you didn't wish to speak with her. This is lovebusting SW. Every time you lovebust you reinforce with WW her foggy justifications for the A. I know Plan A is HARD, your taker is SCREAMING. But you need to fine tune this to be a better person yourself. You can do it. And when that taker screams, vent here.

Exactly, no hanging up on her. I'm guilty of this in Plan A, hung up on WH on DDay, so I do understand the feelings that are driving you. But right now you need to be the one who is in control, the James Bond of WW's world, the master Plan A'er.. .

I wouldn't avoid doing things with her brothers though. I think it is more her feelings of exclusion from the family because of her A that is the problem here. Not that she will see it. Can you invite her to these outings?

What about physical affection SW? Hugs, hand on shoulder, etc?

Brilliant! She may not have shown much emotion at the time, but you don't know what is going on under the surface, then or at a later date.

Like I said, you know your WW, we don't. Is this over the top for you? Or something that was normal. I think it is good to compliment her, but don't overdo it or it might come across as insincere. Your the best judge of that. I find it promising that she replied to your text... she could have ignored it. I'm inclined to think you are meeting an EN here... those with more experience might chime in if I'm wrong.

Will OM be getting her something? You can bet he will! Definately acknowledge Valentine's Day. But remember that POSOM will likely be getting her something, so you want to get her something that shows how well you know her, what she likes, the history you have, pointing out how you are so much better suited for her. I don't think you should go extravagant... simple but sincere. Any ideas?

Why would she move on? She has the best of both worlds.

Caracal - thank you so much for your replies. It's information like this that I need to help me make informed decisions.

DD was upset that she was the go between on that incident.

I guess I incorrectly assumed that since WW moved out, that I needed to be in Plan B since we were no longer under the same roof; I did not see how Plan A could work. I thank both Melody and yourself for pointing out that I should be in Plan A. This helps IMMENSELY!

OTH - I too always thought she was still getting the best of both worlds, but it wasn't like she still lived at home. I assumed that OM was now satisfying all her ENs, and I was just someone maintaining a household for our kids.

I must admit that I've convinced myself that SHE (not me) feels OM is the love of her life, I need to keep telling myself this is just fog babble. I assume she's still just fogging me? I've actually allowed myself to believe that maybe she isn't fogging me? I need to remember that this has also put me into a fog.

Is there any other information that I need to provide everyone (based on everyone's experience here), that would allow more ideas to be generated? Things I'm doing right, doing wrong?

The information I've gathered so far from all of you is priceless. Thank you!

SW,

From the age of the OM I would guess that his kids are both old enough to have facebook pages and old enough to be exposed to. Also think workplace exposure.

God Bless
Gamma

Gamma - From what I understand, OM has a 12 year old (not sure if S or D) and a 20 year old son. They both live at home with him, don't know if the 12 year old switches between parents. Also, from what I've heard of the 20 year old's character, he wouldn't care less what his dad is doing. The 20 year old has a FB page, I don't believe the 12 year does.

I may be able to get access to OM's FB page through another mutual friend. About a week or so back, my WW defriended me on FB. I asked her why and she said she was cleaning up and removed me. But she said that there's no reason we couldn't be friends on FB and that she was sorry for doing that. But yet she didn't send me a FB friend request yet, and I so far have refused to stoop to the level of asking to be her friend. Should I ask her?

OM also is a co-owner of a business along with his brother. It's a very, very small business. I believe the OM's brother's wife is the office manager. According to postings I've seen on FB, these three all hang out with my wife at bars, etc. So workplace exposure wouldn't gain me any advantage that I can see.

The OM is 46. From the story I have heard, his W cheated on him. So I assume that was the cause of their divorce. My friends and family all agree that there is more to the OM's story than that. If he couldn't keep his marriage together because of his wife's A, then he would be devastated, and the last person you would seek out after the D is another man's wife.

Unless, like Melody stated, he's a weasel. Which he'd have to be to stoop to that level.

You don't do anything to avoid her discomfort over her affair. It is not up to you to protect her from hard feelings about her brothers. That is just a consequence of her affair. Do your best to make her very uncomfortable about the affair. And don't hang up on her!

And one of the reasons I want you to redecorate is because women are very territorial. I predict this will incite those feelings but she won't be able to object because she has LEFT.

I'm going to just post some miscellaneous questions and observations about my situation. Maybe some of this will give you some better insight into my WW's mind.

1. Should I go over to her apartment? Since the time she moved out, I have not been to her apartment. She hasn�t specifically asked me over, but there have been a couple occasions when she asked if I could drop off DD or pick her up (all for WW�s convenience). I�ve declined each time because I do not care to go over there and �validate� what she�s doing. Each of those situations, she easily could have done the DD pick up or drop off. I get the feeling that WW wanted me to come over and see her place. I sensed some disappointment in her voice when I declined.

She did make a comment several weeks before moving out that �once I get my own place, I�ll have you over for some wine and play Yahtzee� (we did that outside on our deck all summer). I took that as her justifying in her mind that what she was doing is just fine and everyone will just accept it and be happy for her.

Our son refuses to go over to her place. I know this bothers her immensely. DD doesn�t even go over there as much as WW would like.

2. It bothers WW that our kids do not visit her apartment (DS refuses to go over there, and DD sleeps over one night a week max), that they do not respond back in a timely fashion to her texts (sometimes they don�t respond at all), I feel like they don�t have as much respect for her anymore, rightfully so.

As an interesting note, a week ago this past Sunday, WW stopped by the house unannounced. Knocked, walked in and sat down on the couch. Chatted with DD about what they were going to do the next day (both she and the kids had off the next day). Then DD got a call from her best friend and went in her bedroom, shut the door and talked. I made some idle conversation with WW. Then WW called back to DS�s bedroom for him to come out and visit. He came out chatted for about a minute, and went back into bedroom.

I then got up and asked WW if she was warm enough, I�d turn up the heat. She said �never mind, I�m leaving, the kids are ignoring me�. I asked why she came over and she said �to visit with the kids�. I asked her to stick around and visit and she said in sad voice, �I�ll be fine� and walked out the door. Now bare in mind, she had all the next day to visit with the kids. Plus, the weather was lousy (she even admitted it was bad driving over), so why make a special trip to see the kids, when she was going to see them the next day?

On DD�s birthday this past week, after she finished opening her presents, she gave me a hug. My WW said �hey, there�s two people on this couch that didn�t get a hug (her and MIL)�. DD said she gave her a hug earlier, to which WW said �no you didn�t�. Then DD wanted to give her a hug and WW said �no, I don�t want one now�. DD walked off and sat down by her presents, basically not letting it affect her. I looked over at WW and I could see the pain in her eyes. I felt sad, but what could I do? Then WW looked at me and the look in her eyes was hard to decipher. Kind of a mad at me, look how I get treated by the kids look.

3. Should I text WW now and then with things that are going on at home, or just to say "Hi! Hope your day is going well". I don't want to appear needy at all. I want to appear in control.

Need to read up on Plan A today.

stillwaiting, focus mostly on meeting her need for CONVERSATION. That is how you will reel her in. She won't allow you meet her need for affection because she is so detached from you, but conversation is a nice, safe way to meet her needs. And once you are meeting the need, the others are soon to follow.

Look for every opportunity to talk to her without being annoying and make sure your conversations are PLEASANT, PLEASANT, PLEASANT.

No, don't go to an affair lair.


Perfect. You have good kids! I wouldn't want to visit that filthy adultery hole either. Decent people don't visit affair lairs.


So sorry there are consequences for adultery!


Sounds good! Just don't be annoying. Focus on looking good and being as attractive as possible.

"I'm so sorry, but your affair has had a devastating effect on the kids. I hope you can repair your relationship some day." <-----offer her sympathy but don't protect her from the consequences.

I'm still having a bit of a problem understanding how I should implement Plan A while separated, and with her 'just move on' attitude. At least that's the attitude she gives me. Whether she actually feels this way, or it's just fog babble to keep her cake eating going, I do not know.

From Dr. Harley's Plan A/Plan B article:
Remember, plan A is negotiating (without anger, disrespect or demands) to eliminate the annoying behavior or improve the meeting of emotional needs. A blanket agreement between spouses to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward eliminating these thoughtless acts, and can also help couples learn to meet each other's needs with enthusiasm. But without that policy, couples often find that they cannot get anywhere with each other through negotiation, and sometimes separation can eventually lead to mutual recognition that they need the Policy of Joint Agreement to help them resolve conflicts.

My concern is, any official negotiation with her regarding policies or other steps towards getting back together discussions, will just fall on deaf ears and she'll throw back the "you just don't get it" comments.

All I can think is just to just follow Plan A methods, without any 'official' discussion or negotiations with her. So follow Melody's suggestion to meet her needs for conversation in hopes of gradually meeting other ENs to reel her in. Then more official Plan A steps can be more effectively approached. Am I correct in this?

I have two ideas off the top of my head:
1. My WW has saved all (or at least most) of the roses I have ever bought her. They're in bowls in the curio cabinet. Perhaps I can take some of these dried roses and design some type of Valetines Day card? Or use them to design something that would hold additional fresh roses or another small gift. I'm sure DD would love to help.

I did give WW a dozen roses back on our 22nd anniversary this past October, whith a little funny remark on the card. She loved the flowers and card, called and thanked me. But she didn't want to go out to dinner. This was about 2.5 months post D-Day.

2. Have some cupcakes made up that contain a letter on top of each. These cupcakes together would spell out a message. A place in town makes gourmet cupcakes. I had thought about doing this at some point if we ever reached a point closer to reconciliation.

I thought of something like "I <heart> U <her name in cupcakes>" then "<heart> <my name in cupcakes>". But I don't know if I should be saying I love you at this point? I want to and I know she knows I feel that way towards her. But will it be too much and distance her further?

All you can do right now is meet her needs where there is an opportunity and focus on attracting her back.

I wouldn't go overboard with this. SEnd her something nice for Valentines Day that will hopefully outshine the OM. Hopefully, she will use it as a baseball bat when he doesn't send a nice enough gift.

Work on conversation. I think that is the way to attract her back. And be sure and look your best when she comes over. How is your appearance?

I try and look my best. I've never been a sloppy dresser, but then again I don't deck out in nice clothes around the house. I try and wear sweaters or button shirts when I know she's coming over, as opposed to say a sweatshirt. I keep my hair cut nice, and will most always be clean shaven over the week, but will sometimes skip shaving over the weekend. However, WW always said she liked it when I wore a mustache/goatee, so for probably the past 7+ years, I always had that. But since she's moved out, I shaved that off to give me more of a changed look, back like I was years ago when we first met and were married. She did question me at one point that I had shaved it off.

I do like dressing very nice, but usually just to go out on the town.

Always keep clean, have always showered everyday. Wear cologne almost everyday (DD likes the stuff I wear - I like the new stuff, no old school cologne). I almost always try and smile and appear upbeat when she's over. She's always been a bubbly person, but there are times when she's over that I can tell she's preoccupied and not as cheery as she usually is. I will try to never appear negative.

Appearing negative brings up something I want to point out. WW says that I was a negative person. I've never been a negative person and one thing I point out is would she have dated me years ago, let alone married me if I was a negative person? Plus, I have asked family and friends and they say I'm the last person they know that is negative.

However, I can understand now how WW may have thought I was negative over the past year or so, but she never bothered to ask why I appeared that way. Upon reflection, I was not negative, rather I was depressed, bummed out, frustrated, and pretty much given up on our management of money. This made me appear negative I believe.

We had a difficult time managing our money. Therefore, there was never much money to do major home projects, trips, recreational vehicles, you know big ticket items that require planning together to achieve (unless one wants additional debt). So as I became more frustrated that we couldn't work together on this, I became more bummed out. And her not working together to help achieve goals, (appearing to just rely on me to provide her happiness?) only worsened the problem.

Then it became a blame game. She would say "You never do this or that", "You're just like my father, he never took us anywhere or did anything for my mom, and she was miserable". So I would get even more bummed with the fact that I couldn't do major things for my family, yet if we had the extra money, I would have done everything in a heartbeat.

I'm not a lazy person by any means and like getting projects done, taking trips, love anything big city (ethnic foods, entertainment, etc.), but if you don't have the money, what can you do? And to add to the frustration was the fact that we made plenty of money, it just wasn't managed well!

Wow, that turned into a vent!

Ok, I re-read my posting and I need to point out something. I'm NOT trying to blame my WW exclusively for problems we had in our M. The problems in the M were 50/50 and I firmly believe that if we had a higher quality of communication, we may not be where we are today. Money, communication, and being comfortable were our major problems.

So please don't think I'm bashing my WW. Even though I may hate the fact that what she's doing is severely impacting, even devastating our family, I cannot bring myself to hate my WW. Is that messed up or what?

To this day I would still take a bullet for her. Not just for the kid's sake, but because I love her that much! And I'm not saying that because of the emotional state I'm in.

I realize now the day I will no longer give my life for her, is the day I've fallen out of love with her. So far that hasn't happened.

I guarantee the OM wouldn't take a bullet for her!!!

We understand completely. My WW moved into her 1BR apt on Nov as well. I'm in the same boat as you. I'm pretty sure the A is over, but she is being stubborn at this point. Have you read this? Never Trust the word of a wayward


It should help you.

GJM - unable to follow that link, it appears dead. Is this listed under notable threads, or is there another way to get to it?

At one point earlier this month, my BILs and I were questioning whether my WW was having relationship problems with the OM. She was really quick to get agitated and would swear alot at me during texting for just normal topics - nothing I did to provoke it.

She seemed to be spending more time with her mother on the weekends. Especially two Sundays ago during the NFL playoffs. My WW blew me and the family off for every game day this past season to go watch the game with 'friends'. Then on the most important game day of the season, she texts our DS and asks "would you like to come over to my place and watch the game with me and grandma?" He of course declined, and I have fairly good proof that she indeed was with her mom that day. Unless her mom & OM were with her watching the game, but then why invite DS over? So the question was why wasn't she with OM watching the game at a bar where all the parties were?

I didn't look at the latest cell phone bill, but my father had looked at it (he's under our plan) and he said there was still texting and phone activity between her and the OM since at least 1/20/12. Alot of the phone calls were just one minute, so there was no pickup of the phone on his end for those calls. But that alone is no indication of the 'health' of their relationship.

GJM - Is the link you provided the one posted by indiegirl? If so, I already had it bookmarked and will read it again.

Thanks!

GJM - where is the link to your story (thread)?

The reason I ask is my wife is also very stubborn and my biggest fear is she will come out of the fog one day and be too stubborn/proud/ashamed to come back.

Being stubborn applies to about 99.0999999% of wayward wives. That can work to your benefit. Wild horses would not prevent a WS from coming back if she wanted to come back. So don't worry about that for a minute.

You guys, if your wife is "stubborn" she will try HARDER to come back if she wants to come back.

My story is on the same page as yours. It's pretty long. Listen to Mel. You'll be glad she's helping you.

Well, there's one fear I can lay to rest.

You are definitely at an advantage. You have a bond with her family and you have the children. That will weigh on her over time.

I sure would like to think so. There's no way I could ever 'give up' my family for another woman. I know it's putting pressure on her, just don't know what, if any breaking point she has.

On a related note, I wrote earlier in this thread that DD and I went up north ice fishing. My BIL's family invited us up. We always went up north with them year round in that past. I did it to get away for a day or so,and to get DD away from things as well. BUT, I also did it because I wanted WW to know that I'm still actively doing things with her family because we're still, well, family!

This may not have been nice, but I texted WW some pictures of all of us sitting around in the ice shack having a great time. I wanted her to remember the good times we all had and that DD and I were still having them with family! Nothing mean at all, just some nice pictures.

Like my dad told me "Since she has written you out of her life, it will be interesting to see if she loves her kids enough to come back for their sakes".

It's not mean unless you wrote "see what you're missing!" or something like that. You could just say "wish you were here." I'm sure she enjoyed the pics. She won't tell you either way, but I'm sure it touched her in some way. I often overlook things like that so I come here and get 2X4d back on the right path. You're going to question yourself alot. When that happens, come back here and everyone will help you.

No, didn't say anything mean. I know it would bother me if the shoe was on the other foot and I saw the pictures. It would really make me miss the old days.

So we'll see. Even if it's just something that gets parked in the back of her mind and hopefully recalled at a later date, it's better than nothing.

Oh, I've been questioning myself a lot lately, especially since she moved out. So I will be asking plenty of past questions and new questions as they come up. Plus, I'm still going through the threads. There's a wealth of information. To bad they're not categorized under WW or WH. Would help narrow down the search.

You can usually tell who the BS and who the WS is by the title of the thread. Take your time. It's a marathon not a sprint (that's what I've been told).

FUNNY, that's what I was told as well. And some of our marathons are longer than others.

StillW, if you want to see a posters posts, you can click on their name on the left of the post, go to view posts. This will be ALL of their posts. If you want to see threads they have created, then you click Topics Created.

Now for the V-Day present, what kinds of memories do you have that you could remind her of through a gift?

I'm going to have to think about this a bit. I had the window pane idea for Christmas, and I was thinking about somehow using some of the roses I've given her over the years into some type of present.

If I was more artistic, I could use the rose petals somehow. I would like it to be unique.

A small part of me worries that she'll ditch the present and then the roses would be lost forever. I'd only do it if you really can't think of anything else. One reason I didn't give my WH any of our mementos that I didn't want to lose.

There is a lot of dried roses staring at me in the curio. I was thinking of perhaps getting a small jar or orb and putting some of these in there, the maybe sprinkling rose oil on them. These roses would have memories for her. There would still be a lot left.

I don't want to get carried away with this. It's not like past Valentines Day's, so not sure how I should react to giving her a gift.

I do think a gift made from the heart would mean more than just something store bought. OM will most likely not go the homemade route, thinking it will make him look cheap. So he'd be thinking something flashy, rather than sentimental.

Not that I really give a rat's you know what to him anyhow.

I guess this is what you do on Valentines Day in our situation. Never been in this boat before. Christmas was difficult enough.

Is it ok to just express my concerns or anger on this forum? I don't want to distract from legitimate questions that others may have.

For example, my WW is a RN and she has Mondays off. It just kind of blew me away that she didn't contact the kids today. Heck, stop by after they get home from school, visit with them for couple hours and head out before I get home if you need to. DD did text her "Hi!" a little bit ago, and she replied back "Hi Angel." Wow, there's some good conversation.

Guess I'm just miffed because I sit here talking to DD and she's explaining and reading to me a paper she has for school. Of course DS is playing Minecraft on his computer. But how can my WW miss out on all these moments? She was ALWAYS such a good mother, and now she's but a shadow of that. These are memories and time with our kids that she'll never get back.

You can vent, but so can I!! How are your exposures coming along?

Waywards are addicts who are only interested in themselves. There is no room for anyone else, not even their children. There is a reason people call them "aliens" and lots of other derogatory words.

AM

Ha! I had to laugh when I saw this. I knew you were going to be asking about this.

I honestly do not know who else to expose to. The only Facebook family members the OM has are his brother, SIL, and son. And I know they won't give rip, they already know and all hang out with WW.

WW's friends already know and I'm sure she's filled their minds with our rewritten history already.

Oh, but I haven't spoken with the ex-wife yet. I'm going to get my BIL and we might try and get in touch with her this weekend.

Ideas?

The brother and SIL know what EXACTLY? Have you spoken to them personally? Or do they only know your WW's lies?

Ok, then you need to FIND OUT their parents' name and address and contact them. Go through all of their facebook pages and see if you can find them. Then go look them up in intelius.com.

Does your wife work with the OM?


So you haven't exposed to them? Then those are good exposure targets unless they are crapwit loser types who will "support" her adultery.


Is there a reason you need your BIL? I would just call her up and speak to her.

Wife does not work with OM.

The friends of hers that I do know work with her, are single, or a single parent, or are just losers who would support her. The friends at her work, I've only met a couple times. I don't even know how to get in touch with them. One of her close friends I've texted and she knows what WW is doing is wrong and she's told her this months ago. But of course she can't convince her otherwise.

My BIL doesn't need to go, just thought it would be good to have another set of ears in case I forgot something she said. Just that I don't have a phone number, just an address from the circuit court webpage from their divorce.

I would still expose even if you don't think it will matter. You honestly never know where the support for you and your marriage will come from.

Who knows what these people were told. They were probably spun some lurve story bullS^^T so make sure they know the truth.

Also, you don't only have to expose to his family on FB. Expose to his friends too.

As long as you do it with the templates that ML's thread provides, you will do what's right.

I thought certain people that my wife knew were aware of the situation, but I exposed anyway. Matter of fact, I exposed twice. Her mom didn't talk to her until last weekend. I'm sure my W told her some lies, but oh well. At least I gave them the opportunity to influence her. Hopefully if the OM is still out there, they won't accept him. I know my children won't.

My BILs and their families have already said they will not accept the POSOM in their lives.

If I find out that OM is over at WW apartment when DD is there, then I will rain hell down on my WW. Bullet or no bullet, Plan A
or no Plan A, I will not stand for that!

Now where's that clip from Tombstone that Melody had???

Well, I expect to get a defiant email from my WW today.

I sent her an email on Friday outlining her portion of the bills that she owes for January. She pays her portion and half of the kids on cellphone and insurance. Plus there are some other misc expenses pertaining to the kids. I have a feeling she is going to push back on this claiming I should take *her* portion of a medical reimbursement that I get and use that towards these bills she owes.

I have so much pre-tax taken out of my paychecks that goes into a medical supply reimbursement account. We typically wait until the end of the year to claim this, then either use it towards Christmas presents or towards homeowners insurance which is due in March and a good chunk of change.

Ok, go back before Christmas - Christmas being goofed up cause she moved out, we did the Christmas expenses separately. She did want to use the med reimburse for Christmas, I said no, it was now earmarked for HO insurance. She then sent back a nasty text explaining to use med reimburse for Christmas and then we would use tax refund for HO insurance. I said are you sure I can count on you to commit to using taxes for that? She replied back another nasty text, claiming we've done this in the past, why not now.

Long story short, we did wind up just paying for Christmas out of our pockets, and I have the med reimbursement money squirreled away in my savings account, set aside for HO insurance.

She has several times already claimed half of that med reimnb money as hers, even though it came out of my paychecks last year (though our money was joint all last year till she moved out mid-November).

She became upset out of the blue several weeke ago. Vented on her brothers and yelled at me. After that she texted me "the he77 with earmarking that money, I want my half!" I ignored her and she hasn't brought it up since.

She has Mondays off and was at a conference on Friday, so I don't think she has read the email I sent on Friday. So when she reads it at work this morning, I have a feeling she is going to push back and say to take her January bills out of the med reimb money I have.

She dropped off her W2 last week so I can do taxes. If she pushes back on her January bills, I might just take that out of her portion of the tax refund! She is paying nothing towards this house and her name is on the mortgage. So the least she can do is let me use the reimb towards HO insurance.

I'll post later about DS hopefully heading to college this fall and how we're going to manage financial aid and footing our portion of the bill for that! WW didn't attend a college financial aid meeting at the senior high school last week with me, so she has no idea what this is going to cost us.

Well, her response wasn't as bad as I thought, but doesn't leave me with any warm and fuzzies as to when I'll get the money she owes me. She replied "I'll get this to you when I can."

I have a feeling this isn't her last comment on this. I'm sure she's thinking about this and will toss something back my way.

Last week was a college financial aid informational meeting. Our son is planning to attend college this fall. I informed WW of this meeting, but she backed out at the last minute for no reason that I can tell.

Let's just say the meeting was a bit of an eye opener since student loans have changed a bit since the W and I went to school. I have to do taxes yet, so I don't know the exact numbers, but there will definitely be a chunk of money that we will need to come up with for school - more than I anticipated.

Of course when things were good between us, we were using our money jointly, and before she felt the need for an affair lair, we would have most likely had no problem mustering up the money for his school (along with grants, perhaps scholarships, and his own student loan). But that came to a screeching halt with her A.

Not to mention that DD will be taking driving lessons this fall, maybe even this summer, and school no longer provides drivers ed, so it's all private. That will run ~$500. Additional costs in insurance, she will need some vehicle to drive.

Yeah, my wife picked a really good time to have an A. Think she could have at least waiting till the kids got through school? Nothing like ruining DS's senior year. He even told me "mom ruined my senior year and damaged me emotionally". He even said these things and other stuff to WW, but it didn't budge her. May have made her think, but hasn't affected her otherwise.

I've heard that my WW has told people that the kids will come around. If she has to fog up and rewrite our history, that's one thing. But to mess up your kids, well, that's just inexcusable.

I know she's been hanging out with more divorced couples this past summer. I'm sure they've been telling her that the kids and things will be just fine. So she hangs with people that support her twisted view. I guess misery loves company.

After seeing the numbers for college and additional DD expenses on the horizon, I would think that may budge her to think more about our kids and realize that we need to come back together and work on what's best for the kids and obviously us.

If she ruins DS's chances of attending the college he wants because of [her] money spent to fund her A, I would think that will push DS even further away than he already is and WW will lose DS for a long, long, long time to come.

Have you read my thread? Your wife is following script with mine. Don't give her any money unless the courts tell you to. I don't have a choice because I'm military, but if I were you, I would't pay her a dime.

Working on getting through your thread. I don't pay her anything, rather we split some bills since they're joint. But she doesn't pay a dime towards house, utilities, etc.

Well, she got back to me. Our DS is type 1 diabetic. So he has monthly supplies like insulin, etc, that he needs. My WW replied back that she's not paying for his supplies since I have money pulled out each paycheck to help cover that. Well, it's only pre-tax money, that's all I'm saving is tax, it still comes out of my pocket each month. Actually supplies come out of my pocket and the pre-tax money from my paychecks. I don't realize anything back till I submit later in the year. And then it's only the tax savings. Then she reminds me she has a car payment, whereas I don't. Nevermind that I'm paying over $1,000 more per month between mortgage and home equity payment than what her rent is alone! So I knew she was going to backlash.

Since she's a nurse, they had a patient a couple weeks back that was doing poor and most likely is going to pass away, if he hasn't already. I texted her just now how he's doing. She replied "Why do u care? Maybe u should check with one of my brothers...and post ur "family get togethers" on fb..u can have the <bleepers>...they don't deserve me anymore".

Excuse me? They don't deserve her? I would say it's the other way around. So she's really pissed off that I hung out with her brother's family this past weekend.

You know what? I don't really care. If she decides to D me, I will still hang out with her brothers. They even said I better. So she can go hang around with OM's family and I'll hang with her brothers for life. Sucks to be her.

Ironic that she's always said that I should still remain friends with her brothers, yet she throws a hissy fit when I do!

What is with these waywards?

I did post one picture of all of us ice fishing on FB. It just simply said 'ice fishing on the Rainbow Flowage'. Several of my FB friends replied to it and liked it. I didn't do it to hurt her, I did it to let her know what she's missing with her family, and to let my friends know that I'm still living my life!

I can't help it she de-friended me on FB. What's she doing snooping around my FB wall via some mutual FB friends we have? I find that interesting. Apparently she's still checking out my FB page even though she de-friended me!

She thought that her little fantasy world would consist of me rolling over and submitting to her, that her brothers and family would be on her side, seeing how *happy* she is with OM, that our kids would be on her side. Apparently, it's not turning out at all like she envisioned.

That's what they do. My W blocked me. Not just unfriended me. She asked me about one of my posts that one of "our" friends reported to her about. She's in conflict with herself like your wife. Pay no attention to it. You're going to go through a roller coaster of things that are not explainable and you shouldn't read into.

It's so interesting that I was her friend on FB up until about 2 weeks ago. Don't know why she suddenly felt the urge to de-friend me. Maybe I should block her on my FB page. That would tick her off!

I hate FB, but if it can be used as a tool to put pressure on her of any kind, then all the better.

'In conflict with herself', I like that. Helps me keep it in perspective.

My WW did reply again back to my initial text that the patient had died. So on one hand she felt the urge to flame me, then she must have had a moment of guilt or remorse where she felt it necessary to respond back to my initial question in a civil manner.

Don't block her....let her have the ability to see you and the family doing things together. Blocking her would just be childish. Read Plan A some more and do what it suggests.

Where do I find a good explanation of Plan A and ENs? I see some information under Articles, but it appears to just be somewhat of an overview of A & B.

Link to Plan A

Plan A.

Suggest family trip - DS Senior year, and your last opportunity to take a vacation as a family...spring break is rapidly approaching...

OM will blow a gasket (+)
WW will enjoy family time (+ meeting her EN's)
You get to Plan A 24/7.
It was one of her complaints.
If she doesn't want to come, GO ANYWAY. She will dwell on it while you are gone...

I be lovin' dis ......

Lexxxy - that's a great idea, problem is I do not have the funds for such a trip. WW moving out has put me under a tight budget.

Plus, spending money on a trip when I very well need to take any extra cash I can find and put it away for his college, would not be a signal I need to send. How can I put the pressure on her to do he right thing and reconcile so we can focus on our children's upcoming expenses (and us), while on the other hand frivolously spending money on a trip which would financially bind us further and risk DS college? I feel I would be stooping to WW's immature level.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great idea, and if I had the extra cash and college was secure, I would do this in a heartbeat cause I like the positives it would incur.

Tax return.

Seriously -- you cannot "pressure" her out of the affair.

You're gonna need to start thinking out of the box here.
Consider downsizing the house.

What school is DS planning on? Talk to them about financial aid / scholorships / work study. And get wife involved.
Have you visited the campus? Good family time there too.

You can be the key to her having a relationship and time with son. The nice part about that is you are the central figure.
If you remove yourself, she's back to having little to no relationship with him.

That is one of the downsides to this whole situation. One of her complaints was not doing enough trips, big projects, recreation, etc. I would have loved to do those, but needed her support in managing finances to make that happen. It wasn't for the lack of money, it was for the managing of it.

Now by her moving out and $binding$ me even more, how can I possibly correct that complaint? How can I Plan A something like that?

I need to focus on the kids, having a safe, warm, secure home for our kids. Then second is the kid's future. They need to have the opportunity to get a good start on life. Schooling is that opportunity and I need to make sure I can provide that. I will get a 2nd or 3rd job if I need to. That is my responsibility in life. I helped bring our kids into this world and it is my responsibility to raise them and make sure they're prepared for life in the best way possible.

I cannot rely on WW to uphold her end of the bargain. In the past she would have. That person is [hopefully temporarily] out to lunch.

I'm listening to you Lexxxy.......keep talking, I like your ideas.

The issue with my WW from what I can tell is she's checked out of the marriage. She is working to get the kids on her side so they understand that mom is happy with this other lifestyle and man. The things I heard her say over the past months to the kids seems to support that.

By helping get the kids closer to mom, she will see them come to her side and leaving me, which is what she wants. From what I've observed, she is just beginning to feel the pain of her kids being against what she's doing.

I'm not manipulating my kids in any way, thank God they feel this way against what mom is doing. And I'm not about to do anything that would put the kids one step closer to being ok with what she's doing.

She wants the nice relationship with her son, she just wants it without me in the picture.

Also, we haven't visited the college yet or talked to their financial aid. We will be starting that soon, and perhaps that will open her eyes.

But please keep giving ideas, everything helps me make the decisions I need to.

I was thinking more about this and I wonder if her relationship with OM has expanded to the point where she feels she want to introduce him to some of her family, but there's no one to do that to since all except her mother are against it.

All the more reason in my book to try and find anything to put pressure on the A.

All the while doing a stellar Plan A. Are the two possible together?

She's seeing now that it will be impossible to carry on a relationship with this "man" with her family's blessing. That's why the change of heart on your relationship with her brothers. She wasn't counting on this kind of collateral damage from her actions, and now she's spinning.

Oh well...too bad!

Exactly. You really need to find out what you can on this POSOM. Leave no stone unturned. You need to start attacking from his angle any way you can. It is that important.

You should remain vocal with your kids about your plans and visions for your family.

Make it clear that restoring the family is your goal.
Make it clear that you are not "ok" with what she is doing.
Make it clear that adultery is wrong.
Let your kids know about Plan A and Plan B. They are of ages to actually help you.

At the same time, make spending time with the family possible for her. Invite her to dinner. I bet the kids would help you prepare it. Once a week. Great bonding time for you and the kids - plus it fulfills your WW's family emotional need.

Invite your WW to go visit the campus with you and DS.
Don't let her take charge of things like this -- or you will find yourself on the outside. She would exclude you...Insert yourself into the center of her relationships with her children.
For now help make them possible. If/When you go to plan B, that will cease entirely.

She's not going to let you meet her emotional needs for affection, sex, etc. But you DO still have the opportunity to meet the family, conversation, admiration, and financial EN's.

This is great advice, and great advice from everyone! It helps when I can get different perspectives from people. I was always under the assumption that since she had moved out, that Plan A was no longer possible or effective, and Plan B was required. It's good to know that there is still a chance to do Plan A!

Right now she is finding herself on the outside and it is starting to bother her from her actions and words. I think this is good in the sense that she needs to realize what she stands to lose. I like the idea of inviting her to dinner, but I don't want this to come across as a cake eating opportunity for her.

How do I effectively satisfy her ENs, without it becoming cake eating to her? (Seems like I read the answer to this very question somewhere on MB).

TigerWes, I like the way you put this.

Can I get other people's opinion on this. Is this the way you see it also?

It IS cake-eating. And you will tolerate it because it serves YOUR purposes. Its part of YOUR PLAN.

And you want it to be the best tasting cake she's ever had! So much that she craves more and can't be without it.

You will demonstrate changes. That her former complaints are no longer valid. SHOW her. Its not enough to tell her.

Court her like you did when you first met. Be THAT guy.

For a little while.
Plan A will drain you. Because your "taker" will start screaming **WHAT ABOUT ME?**. Your needs are being ignored while you are being SuperDad and SuperHusband. So before you snap, you will go to Plan B. Which is to take that big ol plate of cake away - and just let OM try to fill those shoes....!!

SW,

Well put by TigerWes, WW expected to legitimize her relationship with OM by creating a believable "story", the story would have been all the more believable had you cooperated and kept quiet and just fell on the grenade for her. She thought it was against the rules for you to throw it back, now OM can't be rehabilitated any more than Stalin can.

Prince charming is now a reckless, drunk, seducer, who destroyed two families.

God Bless
Gamma

SW1963-

Read this, read it again, and then read it again.

WW and OM being ostrasized by the family is a good thing, SW.

Its just one more thing she has lost or given up for this affair.
So her expectations for the OM are getting bigger and bigger.
To keep the "high" of the affair going, OM now has to compensate her for the loss of her brothers. The more she loses, the more she expects OM to make it up to her. He better be worth it..

SW, this is also why it is imperative that you some how, some way find a way to out the POSOM. You are in a lot better position that you may think or feel. But getting pressure on the POSOM is CRITICAL right now. Maybe a little face to face chat with him? With one of your biggest and meanest looking friends keeping you company to keep you at arms length? Hell, I'd do it in a nanosecond if it were my wife, but that's just me.

ETA- This face to face may be poor advice. Wait on others to chime in on this approach.

I'm printing this one off and reading it every day!!!

Plan A (the 'carrot') is allowing the wayward to eat cake by having 2 people (you and OM) fill her ENs. ON A TIME LIMITED BASIS.

This is not the same as "doormat" (see 'stick' of Plan A).
Keep trying to 'kill' the adultery while allowing her to enjoy the best of YOU!

GJM - I'm on page 48 of your story. Very interesting and lots of good information. It's going to take a couple of days to get through it.

You may have noticed my defense mechanism up at first. I'll come around eventually. Don't put yourself to sleep reading it all.

Also, if you notice similarities, let me know.

I have noticed quite a few similarities. The latest one was in the text message exchange on page 51. Lot of similarities just in the demeanor of her messages. I read the comments on that and was surprised how similar all WW texting must be.

I will list them [similarities] here when I finish your thread. It's amazing reading your story how thoughts and images of my WW pop up in my head.

The ONE important thing that's missing in my story is POSOM is divorced. If he had been married, I would have fire bombed his world on D-Day. That is the main disadvantage I've had compared to many others here.

It gets better (or worse for me).

SW, when I first came here, I thought about all of the disadvantages against my sitch as well. I'm not even sure who OW is for instance, I'm just going with my gut instinct. Through reading many reads, I have come to the conclusion it just doesn't matter. Some of the unlikeliest couples (IMO) recover, and some of the most likely don't.

The only thing a BS can control is THEIR actions. Follow the plans. Do the best exposure you can do. Do the best Plan A you can do. Regardless of your sitch or WW. Vent here, report on your LB$ and emotional health. And if need be, enter Plan B. Then do the best Plan B you can do. All of this should be done for YOU. Trust me, in time to come, you are going to look back and want to know you tried your hardest, gave it your best, regardless of whether you are in marriage or personal recovery.

That is all that matters, not the disadvantages or the odds of recovery. What matter is that you did the best you could to recover your marriage. And yourself.

Thanks Caracal.

Well, from the text I received from WW yesterday (her response totally unexpected), I was surprised that she is still checking out my Facebook. I honestly thought she could care less what I was posting out there, seriously.

It's just an odd feeling. I open up Outlook this morning at work and I see my WW's emails from yesterday. Looking at her name, I recognize that she's my wife, but looking at her name I also feel like she's just a distant acquaintance.

It makes me wonder just how distant she really feels about me!

GJM - I grabbed this snippet off your thread. I don't think there's been a day that's gone by over the past 6 months that this very question hasn't crossed my mind.

To have known someone so well for 26 years and this other side of them comes out, it's just so unbelievable and surreal.

I don't believe any of her fog-babble or re-written history.

WW's mother is basically on her side because she's a weak person. She has never had an opinion of her own that I've seen in 26 years, everyone in the family knows this. She doesn't like confrontation and will change her mind at the drop of a hat to appease someone. This has A LOT to do with her mother's upbringing. Right now she claims she has done all she can and feels she cannot change her daughter's mind, so she's just siding with her. She doesn't want to do the hard work of being a mother and doing what's right.

The reason I bring this up is my WW also does not like to do the hard work. I think she expects everyone to cater to her and feels entitled. I'm not saying my WW is lazy, just that she won't put the effort into anything that won't benefit her directly. She went to school in her early 30's for a degree in nursing. We lived off my salary. Did incredible - 3.9 GPA. I was so proud of her. But this was something she always wanted, so she worked hard at it. That's the only thing in 26 years that I saw her put any serious effort into.

She'll also have an interest in something, then drop it later. This past spring she was set on us getting a Harley. She thought it would be so cool. I liked the idea, but I knew that it was something we would have to work towards as a goal ($$). I think deep down she knew this, and eventually her desire for a Harley went away (I think around the same time OM came into the picture). And no, I'm almost 99.9% sure that OM does not own a Harley.

Why did I bring this up? I guess just to give you more background on my WW.

Your W sounds a lot like mine. We met when I was 20 and she was 18. The first place she lived after her mother's home was mine. She never had to work nor did she really want to. I offered her to go to school and she declined. She would never put any effort into reading marriage help material. When I first came to this site in 2001, I could not get her to read any of it with me. She said she hated reading, but she would always read about the actors lives and gossip.

When she finally got a job this past April, it took a whole 3 months for an affair to start up. Now she has this independence of not having to be responsible to a husband and children anymore. Her mom and her never had a good relationship so her mom's anger toward her didn't last. Instead, she saw it as an opportunity to get closer to her.

My W has no idea what it means to be financially responsible. I took care of the bills and budget. She even tried to blame me and then recanted because she knew that I gave her the opportunity to manage the money and she failed. She is failing still.

My W did manage our money years ago. Her method consisted of balancing the checkbook over the phone (this was before the days of online banking). This worked very well in the sense that she knew where all the money was going because the most I would do is ask if I could pull $20 out of the ATM. Everything else went through her.

I don't recall the reason why I took over bills again, I think her schooling was taking up more of her time, but I do everything in Quicken, and am a little more organized. Problem was, now it was both of us spending money. She would never come to me to ask if she could grab a 20, or this, or that. I knew what was in the checking account, but she never really did, nor would she ask. She wasn't a frivolous spender at all, but little things do add up if you're not on the same page.

I met my wife when she was 18 and I was 22. We didn't start dating until she was 19. She had moved across state after high school to live with her cousin and that's when we met - I knew her cousin's husband. She had dated several guys before we met, but I think [now] she believes she missed out on dating more back in her younger years. We dated for over 3 years before we got married. We hung out and partied [pre-marriage] like there was no tomorrow. We lived in the Twin Cities at that time, so there was plenty of things to do and see. We did a lot together.
She did mention back before she moved out that she felt she got married too young. Like I wasn't? Standard fog-babble from what people tell me. Plus, we were to get married the same year that her brother was. Not wanting to put her parents under too much of a financial bind, So we waited on our wedding for at least another year or so. Evidently she didn't think she was too young then, otherwise she would have had time to back out during this time.

It was roughly 4 years after being married that we had DS. After marrying and before DS, we still went out with friends and partied. After DS was born, we both went into parent mode. Focusing on our family. Three years later, DD was born. So for the next 17 years, we were in family mode. We still cared for and loved each other, but I can see now where the kids took precedence for the most part. She had another cousin that would always travel with his wife and leave their kids with grandma. My wife and I both agreed that we couldn't understand how they could be away from their kids so much. We both had those same values. Well, now I see that although her cousin *may* have been away from their kids excessively, we also should have taken more US time away from our kids. More date nights, trips alone. I didn't realize the importance of that then (and I question whether she did as well, else I would have heard about it more), but we were both new at parenting and felt family was first. After all, the kids would be grown up and gone someday.

Well, darn it, about the time the kids are old enough, more independent, and we can have more US time together, she decides to go off and do this! We did get a good amount of US time in last year, but for some reason, she didn't want to continue it.

You share the same thoughts as I do. The kids are on autopilot and now she runs off with someone else. It sucks to say the least. My W and I didn't spend enough time alone. I tried to get her to do things with me, but she was always worried about the kids. I know how you feel.

I'm in the middle of GJM's thread and the discussion is on his W's ENs. Conversation is identified as one of the two top ENs for women.

I'm trying to think of good ways to initiate conversation with my WW, seeing as we're separated.

I was proactive and just now texted my WW to let her know I was picking DD and her friend up after school. Then verified if DD was staying with her tonight.

Is this a form of effective conversation in Plan A? I feel so stupid asking this. I should know what constitutes good conversation with my wife, but it seems I just don't know anymore now that she's a WW.

GJM - too bad we don't live closer. It would be fun to go throw back a few beers and compare notes.

I know what you mean. It's hard to share a conversation with someone that doesn't want to include you in their life. It has been hard for me because I get short answers and no elaboration. I would text things just to let her know I'm still here. Not needy type things, but just stuff to try to get a conversation going.

Dishonesty leads to lack of communication.

Haha...agreed

Texting was always meaningful and fun between us before D-Day. After that it slowly started degrading to just a couple word replies, mainly depending on topics. Some longer, but typically the conversation stuck to the original topic. Since she moved out (this past November), the topics have pretty much just been related to the kids in some way, or perhaps financial.

However, a couple weeks ago she contacted me about picking up our DD after school. I replied back that I would, then she replied back that she was having a rough day at work, sad issue with one of their post-op patients, etc. I replied back asking questions to initiate some conversation. We texted back and forth, it all ended on a good note.

What's interesting is this was the FIRST time in quite a long time, even before moving out, that she offered up information to me without having to ask. My first thought (to myself) was why she wasn't talking to OM about this (probably did).

Her text was reminiscent of the old W, not the current WW.

So I do need some ideas from everyone on how to initiate Plan A approved conversation that is not children or financial related, and is not needy.

For most of the time over the past two months or so since she moved out, I've been in I guess what you would call a very, very light Plan B. I figured I had to do some type of silence in order for her to miss the home life, hopefully me, and the kids. I would not jump at the chance to reply back to her texts/calls right away. I wanted her to know that I wasn't just sitting around waiting to hear from her.

Throughout this whole A fiasco, my WW would have a very short fuse if I didn't reply back to her within a short period of time. Well, that seemed to really enhance when she moved out. If I didn't get back to her, then kept ignoring her repeated attempts (only for a few times), she would get pissed! One time though, she did text "Do you hate me?" when I ignored for a couple hours.

Now that I know I really should have been in Plan A post-separation, maybe that wasn't the best move. But darn it, Plan A or not, she shouldn't be so short on me getting back to her if it's not an emergency.

Some recommendations to me were to look up odd facts and talk about those. Talk about current events. It's hard to ask questions because in the wayward mind, you are fishing. You're investigating. I always text to have a good day, hope you had a good day and thinking of you....I try not to ask too much. I'll ask how work went or how she's feeling, but as you know, it is hard to get them to open up conversation. I have days where my W will talk and talk. I make sure I listen and don't interrupt. I'll smile every so often to show my interest. It's hard to do because I just want to wrap my arms around her and squeeze. I want to embrace her so bad. I have to be smooth and look confident though.

So it's ok to text them "hope you're having a good day", "how's your day going?", "how did your day go?".

I don't know how she would react to me saying "thinking of you". A week ago, after all of us getting together for DD's birthday, I texted her "Just wanted to say.....you looked absolutely stunning tonight" she replied "Stop....but thanks..."

So she acts like she doesn't want me to say anything that might imply any kind of affection (and maybe not), but then to thank me for the compliment?

Well, you can see why I'm gun shy about initiating too much conversation. When she does come over to visit the kids (maybe once/twice week, we have normal conversations, but never about us or the M.

One thing I keep getting 2x4d about is that I keep forgetting that I am not to have expectations. Yes it's ok to text small things. She may not say anything you want to hear, but she's listening to your words. She just won't tell you anything. I text my W at least 3 times a day. I see her every day. We eat together, go places, spend time with the kids, but she is STUBBORN! She won't come back. I'm gearing up for Plan B soon.

Now that is where our sitch is different. We'll only exchange texts if it's to do with the kids, or on occasion she will try to start a text war or get under my skin on something I did with her brothers. She will come over and visit with the kids for a half hour or so, maybe once or twice a week and she will most always have left before I get home. If it's on a weekend when she stops by to pick or DD, or perhaps visit with the kids, we will have normal conversation about things, but so far never about the M.

The big difference is my WW is still in an active A with the POSOM. At least from what I can tell she is. I have no positive proof other than what I've heard through the grapevine (source was the MIL, which is iffy at best cause she historically gets the facts mixed up) and active texting to OM phone.

I haven't finished reading your story yet (only on pg 72), but I did jump ahead to today and see that your W accepted your invitation to dinner for Valentine's Day. I wouldn't even think about asking my WW, she would probably laugh at me and say "you don't get it do you?"

So since I haven't caught up on your story, I may be a bit premature saying this, but at least your W has much more interaction with you than mine does. I think that speaks volumes - in your favor.

I think I need to begin testing the water more with some sporadic texts to WW. Nothing mushy or needy, just some things about the kids, work, current events, etc. With maybe a how was your day thrown in there for flavor.

I mean, it can't hurt. If it's not frequent, it might slowly open the door to further communication. Melody did say I needed to work on conversation - that it may have the potential to lead to other things.

From November 18th til December 18th things were very confrontational. She told me a lot of the things your W says to you and we never talk about the M. I stayed persistent as I do now. My W thinks I'm a stalker or weirdo because I won't go away. Whenever she has something negative to say, I don't argue. I just say I'm fighting for our marriage. That's my answer for everything.

If she tells you that you just don't get it, I would respond with, no you just don't get how much our marriage and family means to me. Whatever fire she spits out, just extinguish it with silence or that same line that I use. I guarantee my W will wear out before me.

Now that is ironic in that November 18th is when my W left for her apartment. Things were quiet with little confrontation until around December 19th (are our wives in communication with each other?). On that day she blew up out of the blue at both of her brothers on the phone (separately). One BIL contacted me right away and I was able to avoid answering the phone when WW called me at work. I ignored her all that day and into the next. I had found out from BIL's what she had said to them. My WW tried calling me 22 times (MIL tried twice) and I got about 6 of the worst voicemails on my droid - they would peel the paint off a wall! And I never did anything!

She initiated all this towards her brothers and she tried pulling me in. I believe it all stemmed from the fact that one BIL was having Christmas at his house, and he invited me. She was livid because I was going to HER family Christmas. And I think what compounded the problem was no one on MY side of the family invited her. Which was probably just as well because her health would have been at stake had she interacted with my family.

It was during this time that I began to question whether she was having issues with OM. But it doesn't appear to be that way, though to this day I still have no idea what the true status of their A is.

And you may never know. I got blasted for exposing my wife's affair from some of her family, but I don't care. I don't know that state of my wife's affair and as mortarman told me, you have to assume it's still active. You need to Plan A no matter what the circumstance is and follow the plan until it's time to Plan B.

Text her if she initiates (which she seems to do), don't initiate. Then comes the question. How do you explain your change to her? If asked, you could tell her the truth. Will you tell her the truth?

OTH - I'm sorry, but you lost me.

My WW seldom initiates discussion that doesn't have to do with the kids.

I'm not sure I follow you on explaining changes. And which truth are you referring. Really lost for some reason.

In Plan A it's ok to initiate contact. Like I told you earlier, she may not respond or in a way you desire, just do it a few times a day. Some times I'll get a negative reaction and say I'm sorry you feel that way. Don't explain or act needy. Just show you care and you're interested in her. It seems to work some times for me.

GJM, read this in your thread and it got me thinking. I had to chase my wife back in the beginning to get her. I highly doubt that OM had to do much chasing, if any to 'get' my WW. I don't know if she just flirted with the OM to reel him in, or if she was introduced. I have a feeling it was the latter.

In the state of mind she was in (in regards to her feelings for me and the M), I would say that the OM didn't have to work very hard to catch her. Therefore, there was no thrill of the hunt, it was easy for him. And girls like to be chased after, so where was the thrill in that for her? I'm sure she doesn't realize that now, but some day might. What's to say that he doesn't think it was easy to reel her in, would be just as easy to reel another one in?

Statistics aside, common sense and logic tell me that there's no way that this 'relationship' they have will last. How can one trust the other? Of course, who knows the state of our M by the time that sinks in.

Dr Harley says affairs will die because of exposure or will last no longer than 2 years usually. I did chase my wife. I still do. Not in a scary way, but with compliments and invitations to do things. I often wonder what she would do if I just cut all contact. That's where Plan B comes in, but you need to have a good plan A first. Butter her up and then cut her off.

I read that also, that they would die out within 2 years. But, I also read somewhere that the affair may begin to crumble 6 months after D-Day.

Can any vets comment on this?

Vets (and GJM), I have a question. I pulled this from GJM's thread. At this point in his thread, the OM was thought to be pretty much out of the picture, unlike my situation (so I believe). So techinically, for GJM, his Plan A was geared towards infidelity recovery. This included things like giving flowers, etc. - gestures geared towards true courting.

In my case do acts of true courting work while the A is active? I do compliment her. Last time I did that she said "stop...but thanks...". But I guess like GJM has been telling me, just do it and don't worry about her reply.

Vets - has their been any cases where expressing too much conversation or compliments to WW during Plan A has had a detrimental affect on the outcome?

I'm just trying to work out my Plan A. Not that I'm setting myself up for expectations, I'm not, but obviously one does want to do their best at this.

You are taking two years too literal. This is no sell by date as on a bottle of milk.

Most affairs end by two years.

Things is there is a recent poster that had a WW doing the OM for ten years.

Then there have been many WS that had one one night stand.

So an affair can end before and well after the two year mark as well as the moment the WS puts their clothes back on after the first time. Do not place importance this wide range of time intervals or even the six month mark that you maybe using as a mark to hope for.

Trynng to nail down a mark is useless. It can be an attempt to get oneself hope. But what will one do when their imaginary end date (six months) passes and the affair continues?

Thing is if using the a change of wording from most/usually/often in front the the two year mark helps you to understand that the odds are in the BS's favor that the affair will end by then.

Remember talking odds not guarantees.

Once the hour glass is turned, the two year mark begins. uring this time the BH does a super plan A for six moths (D. Harley says planA for BW is best shorter because it tens to be to hard on most, but if a girl is tough enough....) then followed by Plan B so the BS really doing something to end this affair throughout this two year time even though they do not see anything positive happening they are.

Positive is happening the BS are fighting the good fight.

Vets (and GJM), I have a question. I pulled this from GJM's thread. At this point in his thread, the OM was thought to be pretty much out of the picture, unlike my situation (so I believe). So techinically, for GJM, his Plan A was geared towards infidelity recovery. This included things like giving flowers, etc. - gestures geared towards true courting.

In my case do acts of true courting work while the A is active? I do compliment her. Last time I did that she said "stop...but thanks...". But I guess like GJM has been telling me, just do it and don't worry about her reply.

Vets - has their been any cases where expressing too much conversation or compliments to WW during Plan A has had a detrimental affect on the outcome?

I'm just trying to work out my Plan A. Not that I'm setting myself up for expectations or hope - I'm not, but obviously one does want to do their best at this.

SW plan A is not to beg, try and educate the WW, be a doormat, appear needy, weak.

Plan A is to show WW the new and improved you. Not by telling her but by showing her. Actions are needed for WW to observe and observe continually to feel the changes are permanent.

Plan A is also to meet all of WW needs. WW sees that you can meet all of her needs she doesn't need the OM who is only meeting some of her needs.

WW then say's why have two men when I can have one man that is meeting all my needs, my husband. Affair ends.

If getting flowers for no reason is something a BH did but stopped a long time ago then do it now. If never done in the past and WW likes to get flowers for no reason then do it now.

Don't go over board, Single rose bouquet. Leave on kitchen table as suprise. Don't wait for WW to ask to take out garbage. Get WW to do fun family activities to see WW can have fun with you.

WW declines activities do them any way. Let WW see the fun she is missing out on.

Plan A is show casing yourself. That she can be happy with you.
Sort of like courting.

TR - Thanks for the info. Knew there was no set date to aim for or build up hopes for. I guess just looking for the averages based on peoples experiences here. So probably best just not to worry about it.

It is hard not trying to pin any hopes on statistics or even little oddities that one sees from their WS.

I felt that I was actually doing better for myself when I was doing an unofficial Plan B prior to posting my story out here, and learning that I should be doing a Plan A. However, I am very satisfied to know that Plan A is the correct route for my current situation. Also good to know that Plan A should be run for 6 months. Even though it's been 6 months since my D-Day, I never knew of the MB website initially, and was trying to do some type of Plan A before she moved out. So technically, I'm resetting the 6 month clock on my Plan A since I posted on here.

A little more challenging in my case since she moved out into her own apartment. But I did always send her flowers out of the blue in the past. Other than for our anniversary last October, I stopped doing this after D-Day. Good to know I can continue this occasionally.

I'm resetting the 6 month clock on my Plan A since I posted on here.

Can't do more then that. Good job.

The key is to do things for you and your children. Make yourself feel good. I have a hard time with this, but I'm getting better at it. One day at a time. One foot in front of the other. I stated in my thread that I would rather invade Iraq all over again than have to endure this pain that I live with each day. That's how strongly I feel about this.

It's good to reset the clock and you have a positive attitude. I know you can do it. It's hard to have the "James Bond" attitude, but when you feel like you can't talk to your wife or see her without feeling emotional, take a step back so she doesn't see you in that state.

Took DD to her dentist appt this morning. While waiting, I texted WW and asked if she wanted to go out to lunch with us. By the time she got back, it was almost too late. She replied "Prob not. Thanks for asking tho". In her defense, I did text rather late cause DD appt was at 11:00. Should have texted her this morning.

She then texted asking about taxes - when I'm doing them and what are the plans for them. Said getting Turbotax this weekend and hadn't thought what to do with them yet.

Then I went on texting to discuss financial aid sign-up for DS's college. Told her roughly the costs. Said it wouldn't be cheap. She said no it wouldn't, but there must be some alternatives. I replied yes, either he helps out with a job and/or we foot the remainder.

The ramifications of her having her own apartment and trying to live a single lifestyle, will most likely cripple our ability to help DS with college. This fact has not sunk in for WW yet. Once we get taxes done, fill out the FAFSA form, and find out what the final numbers are going to be, I think it's going to put a huge dent in her little fantasy world.

Will it result in change? Additional guilt? Remorse? Only time and the SS amounts will tell.

I think I would rather invade Iraq, Iran, and Afghanistan all by myself and with no military training, than go through this.

Next time you text her to invite her to do something as a family and she asks about finances or something, don't engage in conversation to her benefit. Or at least wait a while before you text back. That way she sees that you're not on standby to her every whims. My W kept asking me for passwords to things and I told her when she was ready to rebuild our marriage with me, I would discuss these things with her. She was furious. She never did get the passwords.

Interesting response from WW. We were texting about financial aid and she said we should use her income (cause it's a little less than mine). I replied we have to use both. She replied no we don't. I replied that when you fill out FAFSA form, it sucks down 2011 tax info from IRS.

She replied "I guess we will hafta use last years taxes...so ur right...we will hafta use both incomes".

I don't know how to read that. I guess she was thinking about just using her income on the form. But we're only doing a trial separation, not a legal separation. So in the eyes of the law and IRS, we're married and not legally separated. So I don't know what she was thinking about only using her income. Unless she is thinking in her foggy mind that we would be divorced at some point, I don't know.

I hope I don't jinx myself by saying this, but WW has never told me to my face that she wants a D. Throughout all this over the past 6 months, she only said once in a text a couple weeks before Christmas that "she thought we should get the divorce started". She told me this in a text when she was BIG TIME pissed off at her brothers. By the content of that text, you could tell she was feeling sorry for herself and looking for pity, so I ignored it, not replying back. She hasn't mentioned a D since.

She did mention to me in a phone conversation about a month ago, once again when she was pissed off at her brothers, "my brothers can invite my soon-to-be-exhusband up north, but not me". So I guess you could say she alluded to the fact, but like I said, she never has told me to my face, only those other two times where she was looking for pity.

Anyone have thoughts on this? If it's something she wants, then why not go for it?

I think I do need to read 'The Art of War'.

Fog babble...just be prepared in case she does file. She may not tell you anything and I'm sure OM will want her to file at some point.

Ok, very stupid question here. Can I forward her a joke that I received at work? In the old days I would at the drop of a hat. But now?

And the clincher is, it's from her cousin (but I can remove that).

I'm not sure about that. I used to send my wife jokes on a daily basis. I haven't sent one in months. You could always see what her reaction would be, but don't expect a response.

GJM, it's just wrong for a person to put someone else under such stress. Here we are holding down a household, taking care of the kids, getting them to school, cooking meals, grocery shopping, school lunch money, cleaning the house, doing the laundry, taking care of the pets, making the house payment, making the home equity payment, making the electric/gas/water payment, fixing things around the house, school projects, homework, etc.

Her responsibilities? Rent, breakfast the single time DD stays over each week, what to wear over to the OM's house.

Amazing how they are getting off with NO responsibilities. Hard to believe a grown adult can do this to another (but I cannot cast any stones here), let alone their kids. Don't get me started on the kids. How she can leave our home and kids is beyond me.

I could never do that in a million years. No other person is worth my family. And I know, I've been in the WH frame of mind 19 years ago (for about 2 months). So I can truly understand her fog, but that was pre-kids for me. As a matter of fact, I was already comparing my W to the OW (she was single) and realizing things I was missing about my wife. So I was beginning to de-fog somewhat. Then she called me one day and said she was pregnant (with DS). I immediately went over to OW's place, explained that it could not continue, that I had a family that I needed to take care of. Never looked back, never called her again, cut it off cold turkey. I was ashamed, humiliated, etc. So my wife never really asked me any details, maybe a few here and there throughout the years.

I learned my lesson and never did, nor would I ever, ever do something so friggin' stupid and selfish again to my wife (and kids).

Sorry, just a little venting.

The wife you once knew is no longer there. I should say the wives we once knew are no longer there. They are consumed about their fantasy life. They use any and every excuse to find a valid reason to do what they are doing. Read walls and doors by Mortarman. It's on my thread and Pepperband made a separate post. Also read about the lighthouse which has also been posted on my thread. It will help you understand the mind of a wayward. It's up to us to guide them back to reality. They don't know it, but they need for us to lead them home.

You're absolutely correct. I read somewhere, I think it was on a MB thread, that spouses are responsible for getting each other into heaven. Wish I could remember where that was at, it's a beautiful way to put it.

Back this past Fall, I had an epiphany one day out of nowhere. I think it was fostered by a conversation with one of my BILs. I suddenly realized, what if God is testing me? What if God is testing my wife? My wife 'saved' me 19 years ago by allowing me to come home and forgiving me (I think). My wife has always had a somewhat self-centered attitude about things, which she has now taken to the extreme. What if God is testing her? To see if she can grow and mature beyond this selfish stage? To learn how to love unconditionally. At the same time I'm being patient, waiting for her to 'pass this test' and be there for her.

By being there for her and by her passing her test (hopefully), I can help her get into heaven. If she chooses not to, well then I tried, but what more can you do?

I read '31 Reasons to Stop An Affair'. Very good and professionally written. Google for the PDF if you haven't seen, it. I gave it to my wife, I don't know if she read it. If your wife has not read this, get it in her hands.

One snippet that I particularly like from that PDF is:

"In fact, the love generated in an affair is not love at all, although it may feel like it. It is an illusion. It is built around how that person makes you feel, not about how you truly feel about them. It consists of the belief that another holds the answer to your felt needs. True love, on the other hand, is the love you receive after your mate learns of your betrayal and chooses to love you anyway."

As good as the PDF file may be, getting a WS to buy into it is nearly impossible. Especially if it's a shot at them. I'll read it though, but I advise you to use the tools here.

There are two noticeable things that set my WW off: 1) me interacting with her family, 2) the kids ignoring her. On the second thing, I�ve seen this affect her within the past 2 weeks, but yet it�s not enough to turn her around. I think it took WW a good 3-4 weeks [after she moved out] to realize how dead set the kids were against what she�s doing. So I don�t want to say this is no longer having an effect on her, but who knows how she reacts when I don�t see her.

My question is: will the low-level of activity between her and the kids eventually have a dramatic effect on her? Remember, I�ve heard that she claims the kids will eventually come around (I�m sure her divorced friends are telling her this, because remember, misery loves company).

Eventually come around? This could happen....maybe. In the mean time, she is missing time that she cannot get back. Your kids only grow up once. My son still doesn't talk to my W. Now that he's 12, he says he wants to let her know that he wants to live with me.

My son said she is ruining his senior year and even said she's emotionally damaging him. I'm with the kids every day and I ask myself how she can miss out on this because you're right, these times will be gone forever.

She may claim that she knows what she's doing, that she's woken up ( I heard that one), well if that was the case it would imply that she's making rational decisions. I would think a rational decision would have been to D months ago so she could begin her new life and begin the 'healing' process (if you can call it that) for the kids.

It's clear to me that she's not thinking this way and that she's still deep in the fog. How else can you explain ruining your son's senior year and jeopardizing the emotional health of your kids. I can't. From the excellent mother she used to be, the only explanation can be she's in the delusional, fantasy world of the A fog.

I guess that's what keeps me going in Plan A. That there is a possibility that she could one day come out of the fog and return to our family.

Have you read this?

Lighthouse

Yes, I've read that. It's very good. After reading it, I made my own interpretation of it and saved it off:

<wife> is a ship in a bad storm and I�m the lighthouse on shore. I�m not on that ship and I cannot help her navigate. I can only be the light on the shore showing her the safe route through the rocks. She has to navigate the stormy seas herself. I cannot get to her to help her. She has to do this by herself.

The other man is the pilot on her ship. She let him on board and he hijacked her ship. By piloting her ship, he steered them into stormy seas. Affairs will almost always sail into stormy waters and the ship will do one of three things: 1) her ship will regain control, casting the pilot overboard and steer towards my lighthouse, 2) the ship will perish in the stormy seas as you watch helplessly on shore, 3) the ship will sail to clear waters.

Sorry, I just need to vent.

As I walk around here at work and see women I know that are married and have kids, how can any OM destroy that? I mean if any one of them was having a rough time in their marriage and was looking to cheat, I could never do that knowing that it would devastate the husband and his kids. I instead would tell them to work on the marriage.

I still cannot wrap my mind around how POSOM can justify what he's doing to my wife and family. How a person can take that upon themselves that they are destroying a family. The dude must be a serial cheater. I can't explain it any other way.

You never, ever mess around with another man's wife and family!!! That's just written in the man book!

Because he's not a man. He's a coward.

Thanks TW, that helps.

Well, I've read that a WS almost always affairs down.

I guess I can take solace in the fact that I'm a better man than POSOM, and WW is definitely affairing down.

I must keep telling myself this!

Well, I tested the water by sending a text to WW asking how her day was, that I was busy for a Friday, and that I joined a Super Bowl pool.

I'll be curious if she even replies back.

She just got back to me. She said "Had a good day...doing anything for superbowl?"

Ok, I need help on this! I don't have anything planned for the superbowl (would have been a different story had the Packers won!), and I don't want her to think I'm just going to be sitting around.

I highly, highly doubt that she's asking to get together to watch the superbowl with me, in fact, I'd be willing to bet she'll say she has plans with her 'friends'.

Wasn't expecting to hear back, let alone ask what I was doing.

How do I Plan A effectively? Would love if she came over to watch the game. I'm thinking I should just reply back and ask if she'd like to come over and watch the game with me and the kids. We could have our own SB party. Neither one of us are fans of the teams playing.

SW, you just asked and answered your own question

I would say, I'm kicking around a few ideas, but if you'd like to come over to watch it with me and the kids, that would be better. Then come up with some ideas to prepare the snacks together.

Let's see what she replies. I sent off what you suggested GJM - it sounded perfect.

Her reply: "Ummm thanks for the offer...but I'm uncomfortable...sorry..."

Yeah, G's better at that than me

TW - I hope I didn't offend you. Didn't mean to.

Remember..

Plan A = No Expectations

Now she replied: "Go n do something fun <SW>...u deserve it..."

I'm debating whether to ask her what her plans are, you know, to be cordial. I almost have a gut instinct she's not doing anything. She apparently didn't do anything the first playoff game, and that was a big shock!

Why not plan to take the kids out to eat for the game at a sports bar/restaurant or something like that. Then re-invite her tomorrow. If you get off of your turf, she may be more susceptible to accepting your invite. Could be the source of her discomfort.

Just a thought

TW - that's a very good point. I'll kick that idea around.

Should I ask her what her plans are? Since she did ask me?

Isn't this incredible? 26 years with the woman and I have to ask someone else how to speak with her.

Guess I could reply back "I understand....what are your plans for the game?"

I would have asked her why she feels uncomfortable.

Not incredible at all. This is not the woman you've been with for 26 years. She's an alien wrapped in your wife's body. Right now, you're dealing with someone you really don't know at all. She may look and sound like someone you once knew, but that's it.

I wouldn't ask what her plans are. What's the likelihood she would tell you the truth?

LOL..oh Good Lord no. I can't be offended. My 2 exes sapped that right out of me!

You know GJM, I can't believe I'm saying this, but I feel scared to ask her such a question. Probably cause she'll come back with something like "Duh....figure it out." She's said stuff like that in the past. Just gets me discouraged.

You've had A LOT more conversation with your WW since she moved out than I have with mine.

Persistance my friend...she said a lot of hateful things to me, but I kept on going.

U
I totally know what you mean. I had WW over for supper tonight with the kids and I actually wrote a list ahead of time of benign conversation starters for those periods of uncomfortable silence. Sad thing is that I had to refer to it.

I am on the other side - I have Plan A with WH happening. Perseverance is key. He wished I was dead last October. IKEA on Saturday and dinner on Sunday. We have come a long way!

Perseverance is key!

My motto today is if this man does divorce me, then he is by far the biggest fool on the planet.

Eye on the Prize boys!!!

I also kept the invites out there too. I give compliments when I see her. It wears me down at times because the giver is always at work and the taker is throwing tantrums. How bad do you want this?

Very bad. I see no other woman in my future besides her. Plan A for 6 more months - not a problem.

Interesting. Just got off the phone with one of my BILs. He said that my wife had texted his wife (her SIL) this past Tuesday to inform her that she was doing fine, sees the kids almost every day, blah, blah. He said that she texted them out of the blue and offered up how she's been doing. Had been close to a month since she was last in contact with them.

Now this past Tuesday is the day that WW texted me and jacked me a new one for me posting a picture on Facebook of the ice fishing fun I had with her brother the prior Saturday. So she yells at me, then turns around and texts them out of the blue to kiss up and say everything's fine. My BIL can't believe her, says she's way out there and she just expects everyone to think that what she's doing is fine.

Kind of irks me that she told them she sees the kids almost everyday. She hasn't been over to the house since Thursday last week. Hasn't seen DS since then. She did see DD on Wednesday when DD stayed over at her place. She does text the kids most days, but doesn't visit very often.

Did you not read my post to you?

Did your BIL call her out on her bull and lying? If not, he should.

Waywards lie to EVERYONE. Waywards aren't good spouses, parents, children, or friends.

When you invite your WW to things, even if she doesn't go, you still do it. Plan something FUN, even if it is just staying in with the kids. Have a BLAST.

LOL, I hear ya TW. You'll have to forgive me that I still find it amazing how this can happen to someone I've known for so long.

I know everyone here has experienced this. I feel for everyone on this forum. I just want to say I truly appreciate all your advice and feedback. It is most comforting.

DS just went to his friends house for the night and DD is at her friends house. So it's just me, the dog, and cat.

BIL didn't call her out on it, she was texting his wife and think he found out about it after the fact. I'll probably talk to him later and see what my SIL said to WW, if anything.

Believe me, both of my BILs have called their sister out on stuff she's said in the past months. They throw facts back at her and she has nothing to say in return, or changes the subject.

Encourage them to slam her with the truth when she lies to make herself look like she's being responsible. Extremely effective coming from your BIL and SIL for a couple of reasons:

1) She'll realize your support from HER family outweighs hers (VERY painful).
2) Hopefully getting caught in all the lies (and not getting away with them) will one day jolt her back to reality and shatter this little adolescent fantasy of hers.

Pressure and having to face reality (and her lies) is good.

And listen to Scotty

Hell, even your WW told you to do that.

Do it. Your WW was right on one thing, and I quote;

U deserve it

I'm naturally a very curious and analytical person. That is my downfall in this situation because I'm curious to understand why, therefore, I over analyze things.

Like I will now sit here and ponder why WW said she was uncomfortable to come over here. Does absolutely no good, because like Scotland and everyone else says, waywards lie, and you can't believe what they say. And as GJM suggested, I should have asked her.

For her to be uncomfortable being over here with her family must mean something. The last time she was over was for DD birthday, after we all went out to eat. WW's mother was also here for DD's birthday, so that may have been why WW was comfortable, since her mom is on her side. She may have felt that if it was just her, I, and the kids, then maybe we'd start ganging up on her about what she's doing wrong. Which I would not do, but she doesn't know that. That's why TW's suggestion to go outside the home to public location might be good. May be a good way to get her more comfortable getting together (if that's even something she's willing to do at this point).

During Plan A, you are actually going to make your WW MORE uncomfortable the better you are at it.

Her discomfort is called GUILT. She still has feelings that she wants to keep dormant.

And at the same time, YOU'LL feel more comfortable doing it and actually begin to enjoy it, because it's what you should have been doing all along. It will feel right.

Right now it's about you changing you, with no expectations, and no reciprocity.

You may think she doesn't notice (but she will), and you may feel like it's not making a difference (but it will).

Points to ponder

Everyone, thanks for your feedback. My other BIL and his wife and daughter stopped by to visit. Was busy chatting with them.

Then my son and his friends stopped by. They had bought some gallons of milk and were going to do the milk challenge. I said not at my house! So then they did the saltine cracker challenge. FAIL! Then they did the cinnamon challenge. EPIC FAIL! Of course they're doing the milk challenge at his friends house. Teenagers!

I texted a picture of the kids doing the cinnamon challenge (on the deck) to WW. She liked it and we replied back and forth a few times.

Any chance I can get to text her about non-M related things that are going on, I'm going to. I want her to realize that life is still going on in our house and that she should be part of it!

Now you're getting it

I know I'm dealing with a wayward, but I was thinking back to how my wife reacted throughout this whole fiasco, when I would ask her to do something. She would always come back with an excuse that she was doing something with her girlfriends - always.

When I asked her out to dinner for our anniversary, she said she had a fund raiser she was going to with her girlfriends. So she would at the very least always tell me what she was doing.

FF to last night and all she said was 'thanks for asking, but I'm uncomfortable, sorry'. This is totally different than how she has reacted to these types of questions in the past. She would have immediately thrown back at me what her plans were. It would not have been the truth, but it would have been something. This time......nothing. Trust me, I'm not looking for hope in the darkest corners, this is just me analyzing, because it is different from her past WW behavior.

When you mentioned guilt, this is what triggered my thought. If she was beginning to at least be peeking through the fog, then she would have some realization of the damage she has caused and would be feeling guilty, and thus would feel uncomfortable around the ones she's hurt.

Her other text about me doing something because I deserve it, is different than in the past as well. She's mentioned a few times last summer that I should go have fun because I deserve it. BUT, that was always preceded by her telling me she had plans with her friends, so she would want me to do something so she didn't feel so guilty. This time around, no mention of any plans for her, just that I should have fun.

This suggests to me that she's in a different emotional WW state of mind than she was months ago. I take the 'have fun' comment this time around to still be conjoined with guilt, but it seems like she's having flashes of a new type of guilt.

I also have this feeling that she's stuck in a rut with OM.

The most that the OM has done entertainment-wise with my WW has been going out to bars/eating out, parties, I think he has a pontoon boat (or his family does) that they would party on, one trip to a Packers game (but they only watched the game at a bar in the stadium, didn't actually attend the game).

Now I'm going to probably shoot myself in the foot here, but for being the co-owner of a SMALL business, he sure hasn't taken her anywhere out of town. One of her good friends who is now divorced and dating a guy who owns his own business has gone to Napa Valley, New York, and Chicago, just in since this past fall. My WW...nothing.

So other than having a pontoon boat, this OM has nothing more to offer than me. A small business that from what my BILs and I can tell is not taken care of, it's been around for 18+ years, but you can tell they haven't grown or expanded it. It's a small family business - the OM is the 'VP', his brother is the president, and the brother's wife is the office manager. My BIL thinks they inherited the business from their dad. We all feel that they just keep the business going enough to maintain their lifestyle and that's it.

So I really am beginning to wonder if my WW is in a rut with the OM. It has to get boring hitting the same bars all the time, and now that she's moved out, she is spending even more time with OM, I guarantee. So they're doing the same repetitious things.

What you have to remember is, the OM is filling one or two of her emotional needs and it's enough to keep her with him. She probably doesn't care what activities they do unless that's a top need for her. One or two ENs being met is not enough to sustain an affair over the long run. Since you know OM has a brother, have you exposed to his family? If not, you need to.

I've been hesitant to do that since I pretty much know these brothers are party hounds, and I know the brother's wife is right in the mix with them. So I'm pretty confident that the brother knows my wife is married and he probably doesn't give a hoot. I should have done more investigation back in August and exposed further to OM family then, but some members I didn't know about at that time.

All I did was expose to my wife's family and mine. The OM wasn't married, so I was SOL with any OMW. I don't think the members of his family have the highest moral values, so exposing to his brother will likely do no good and just cause my wife to move further away from me. I need to give Plan A more time and judge how she's reacting before stirring up the waters.

I do want to get in touch with OM's ex-wife, I do have her address from court records. And if anything else, maybe write a letter to further members of my wife's family (aunts, uncles, etc.) explaining what is really going on and that I want to keep the family together.

SW,

I understand you think you know what the OM family will do or say, but you really don't know. If someone told me that so and so was cheating on their spouse, I probably wouldn't react, but if they showed me who they were cheating with and who it was affecting, I would have more concern. It's important that everyone know what's going on and that you're doing everything you can to save your marriage. At least you have your BILs and their wives on your side.

Seems like she's willing to isolate her self from her own family. When things go bad, she will regret it. That will make her turn to you.

This is why I post on MB, to hear other people's views, experiences, thoughts. This helps me understand more what she may be experiencing and gives me new perspectives on the situation. My only regret is I didn't post on MB in the month(s) leading up to her deciding to move out. Perhaps things may have turned out different.

Because your post I quoted above, I didn't even think about what ENs she was getting met by OM and wasn't. Didn't even cross my mind. So everyone's advice here helps keep me on track.

Figure out here top needs and try to meet them. Evaluate when she was the happiest and what you did/didn't do to meet her needs.

Because she had to lie to cover her backside because she was seeing the OM then.

What is different now?

WW no longer makes up excuses because she no longer has to cover her backside because she no longer has to worry that you may catch her seeing the OM.

WW just tells you no. With an uncomfortable thrown in. Why uncomfortable? To eat with you and her kids?

I think you're being to hopeful. Makes one confuse what one sees with what one hopes he is seeing.

I need to find where the list of ENs is.

Other BIL and his wife and kids stopped by to visit this afternoon. We of course spent some time trying to figure out WW.

So between last night and today, both her brothers and their families came over to my house to visit. The last time WW actually saw any of them was on Christmas day. That's gotta bug the heck out of her that I'm still with our kids every day and that I still get together with her family and she can't.

DS, DD, and DD's friend are hanging out at home tonight. Going to get some PH pizza and rent a movie.

Your job isn't to figure out your WW or her actions. Nothing will make sense to you. Your job is to learn plan A and execute it.

Have a question that just popped in my mind, perhaps if there are any FWWs (or anyone that experienced this), they could offer some thoughts.

A few weeks back we went out for dinner for DD's birthday, the whole family, I sat next to WW and it was just like old times. My wife was wearing a new sweater, she looked absolutely beautiful and I complimented her. She said she had bought the sweater a short time ago when her and DD were shopping. She had never worn this sweater for me before.

Now I had gone out and bought some new sweaters and shirts to wear when I was around her, something nice that she had never seen me in before.

Now I'm not implying whatsoever that she bought this sweater weeks earlier for my benefit, but the bottom line is, she never before wore this new sweater around me.

So my question is: is it possible my WW wore this new sweater to look nice for me? Much like I did? Would a WW do that for her BS?

I'm going to answer with this: it's just a sweater. If you don't see her much, don't chalk it up as her trying to impress you. Maybe she did, maybe she didn't. Don't read into it. Do you. Be you. That's all you can do.

Good advice. I know I asked these questions after Dday and the answer was "I bought them for myself". It's aprt of the wayward selfishness, but who knows really....

CV

Ok, I need to vent once again, sorry.

I have to say I get tired of hearing about neglect. While it's a very legitimate concern and happens alot, it needs to be discussed with your husband if it's a problem. We cannot read your mind.

Was it neglect that I got her coffee every morning for as long as I could remember? Was it neglect that I got the kids up every morning for the past 17 years, got them breakfast, off to school, so she could sleep in an extra half hour, then she'd just get ready and head to work? Was it neglect that I would get up at 3am every night to test our son when he was younger (he's type 1 diabetic)? Was it neglect that I always gave her backrubs? Footrubs? Massages? Was it neglect that I cooked 90% of the time? Was it neglect that I helped out with the cleaning? Was it neglect that I helped out with the laundry? Was it neglect that I would buy her little things she liked when I went shopping? This in addition to saying I love you and showing affection?

Obviously I wasn't doing enough of something in order to warrant her A, and I take responsibility for any neglect I may have caused. But when you're doing things like that for your wife because you love her, then I guess it may be easy to overlook something you're not focusing on enough. But she HAS to tell you. How else can you know in order to correct it?

Note: I take full responsibility for anything that I didn't do in our marriage, not trying to avoid that by any means.

I noticed in my last post that I had a lot of "I's" in it, and no "we's" in it as I wrote what I was doing in the M. I don't know if that was appropriate or not.

Unfortunately you did not meet an important need of hers. Like me, you probably didn't keep score, but I guarantee that she did! My wife didn't give me an opportunity to fix or work on things either. Not communicating needs is bad for the spouse that doesn't know what they're doing wrong. You put a lot of work in areas that your wife just didn't have as a top need.

You're absolutely right! Man, it helps to have someone else point out the obvious.

I need to find that list of ENs, so I can determine how to meet them while separated. Melody did mention conversation, I do remember that and I'm working to initiate more of that with W.

Tired right now. Not physically or mentally, just emotionally drained. Guess the roller coaster is getting to me. Some days better than others.

I'm going to go back and re-read my thread. Got some good advice and positive reinforcement throughout. Made lots of notes off GJM and others threads. Will read those.

Will be giving Plan A my best effort, even though we are separated. WW has not been over to the house since the Thursday before last to pick up and drop off DD. We'll see if any of my attempts to communicate with WW has any success. We can sometimes get off on conversations spinning off something to do with the kids, but they're short lived.

I will ultimately just have to wait and see if the A dies on its own. I don't like doing that because I feel it shows her I don't care, or allows her more time to get dug in. I guess it's just an unfortunate side effect of my particular situation.

Hang in there SW! The more you learn about what you can do to help your
marriage, the more frustrating it can be because you won't be able to implement what you've learned. I know that's the case for me. I wish I could put what I've learned in place, but I have to wait.

So sad not to hear anything from WW. I mentioned to her on Friday I was in a football pool. Was at least hoping for a "how did you do in the pool?"

Guess I know where I rank.

I know how you feel. I have to initiate ALL contact. You need to do the same.

Thanks GJM. I appreciate the advice - it helps me remember what I need to do.

I just remembered - no expectations.

Don't forget to go back through the site to look up ENs. Buy His Needs Her Needs and Surviving an Affair. I've read through them and I feel like I'm ready to do what I need to for my marriage to be successful. One day I hope to use the tools given to me.

Thanks, will do.

Rented Paranormal Activity 3. Texted my wife that were watching and we had some back and forth texting. It was nice that she got back to me and that we at least chatted a little via texting. Not that it meant anyting.

Maybe not to you, but to a woman it means at least a little something.

Wow, she actually texted me "Ok....going to bed...good night". She hasn't said good night to me in over 2 months.

You're on to something here....keep texting like I told you

Actually, her good night text was just the last thing she texted me, so may have been her way of ending the conversation. But still, her saying that felt nice. I did reply back good night to her.

I'm just thinking I need to take this slow. I don't want to keep texting her multiple times a day. Then she will suspect something, or that I'm needy - looking for attention from her. I'm just going to take it slow. Maybe only text every other day or so, unless something really interesting comes up. I'm hoping that at some point maybe she will initiate a text on her own if I open up to her.

Perhaps some people can give me some feedback on how to ease back into initiating contact.

No expectations....

Just speculating here. When I texted my WW last night that we were watching a movie, she texted back that she had rented and was finishing up a movie. She had texted back a couple times with 'lol' at the end. So she was in a good mood. I mentioned to DD that mom must have had a few glasses of wine. DD replied that grandma was over there cause she had texted mom earlier and she had replied back that grandma was over there. And I know when those two get together they like to have a few glasses of wine.

So this once again gets me speculating whether WW spent super bowl Sunday with OM? The game lasted until later in the evening, and to watch a movie after that? It would be bad if OM was over at WW's apartment and the MIL there also! So I really wonder whether my wife was with OM yesterday for the game?

I would think she would have been at a super bowl party at the minimum. But DD said WW was with her mom yesterday. This made me recall several weeks ago when it was apparent that MIL was with WW for the NFL playoff game. Recall that WW spent the entire NFL season at parties or bars with her 'friends'. So this is very odd behavior.

Little things like this really have me wondering the status of my wife and OM? WW did text at the very end of the night that she was going to bed. My MIL is single and lives alone, and I know that my wife and her spend a lot of time together as such. I know that MIL stays at WW's apartment overnight at times. So it's possible WW and MIL spent yesterday, had some wines, watched the game and movie, then MIL stayed overnight. That seems to fit together.

Thanks for letting me have a place to speculate. I know this doesn't change anything, but it helps me get stuff off my chest. Because at this point, it is important to me what the status of the A is.

SW,

I too speculate a lot, but it gets me nowhere. You need to focus on what you can do to meet ENs in your Plan A. Learn from my mistakes and you can put together a great Plan A. Maybe you could reach out to MIL and establish a communication with her so she remembers what a great guy you are. That might get her to talk to your W on your behalf without you asking. Just a thought.

You don't need to text multiple times per day, but I don't see anything wrong with one per day. Maybe you could ask her how her day was. I text in the morning so she starts her day off thinking of me in some way and then at night so she goes to sleep with me on her mind. I don't know if it has any affect, but I know it has more of an affect than if I don't text her.

I've also been calling more than I usally do to personalize my conversations. We talk on the phone at least once per day. It's only a minute or two, but she can hear my voice and tone. There's a human connection there.

Focus.

What are your wifes top 4 emotional needs?
From Dr. Harley's list.

Identify them.

Then we will help you with ways to meet them.

Get focused.

Lexxxy, where is the list of ENs?

The Most Important Emotional Needs

Here you go Link to EN

Thanks GJM & BH.

What is my W thinking? How can she not try and stay in the loop with the kids? I just scheduled DD today for the conference to sign up for sophomore year in high school. Scheduled for this Thursday. I was thinking tonight I need to text WW to let her know. Ironically, DD just texted W that I had scheduled the conference and that I would be getting her the information. So right now I'm behind the 8 ball.

Sure enough, WW texts me and says "please keep me in the loop with the kids. I understand DD has something something Thursday for scheduling? And is DS still thinking UW Milwaukee? When is infromation day?"

To which I think.....Hello? You don't know that our son is still thinking about going to UWM? This is what irks me. Out there in fantasy land, apparently not too concerned about the kids. I know they live with me, but come on, you're 45, time to come back and join the human race.

I would think she would want to be right in there with all aspects of DS's senior year. I'm going to be the responsible one to do the taxes, while all she will do is spend her half, while mine will go towards something important like homeowners insurance, or DD driving school. I will be the one looking into financial aid for DS's college and she will just be asking me questions.

Some day she will wake up and truly realize that she messed up DS's senior year, AND missed pretty much his entire senior year herself.

Just messed up. I guess someone has to be the responsible adult.

So I text her the schedule and mentioned that I was going to let her know the information, but DD beat me to it (I just found out today myself). She replied "Ok....seems like they beat u to a lot of things."

To which I think, well if your butt was home where it belonged and you acted like a real mother, then this wouldn't be a problem would it?

Was thinking before all this that I would text her DD's schedule which would maybe lead to some nice conversation. Guess not. This is why I'm easing into Plan A. Sometimes her attitude bothers me, and I just need to step back and ignore.

Some days you just can't win.

You're not obligated to give her half the taxes. She moved out. There's no court order. Look out for you and the kids.

My WW just texted DS and wants to take both kids out to supper after DD conference on Thursday. So I do the work, schedule the conference, and she takes advantage of the timing to take the kids to eat, but not all of us as a family. Comments to me for not telling her [right away] about DD's conference, yet I guarantee I will not find out about her taking the kids to eat till Thursday night.

GJM, it's good that your W includes you.

Sometimes I wonder whether my WW is even worth a Plan A.

SW,
I wondered the same things. My W put me through hell in November and December. You have to remember that your wife is going to do things to make you upset. If you can stand by her side while she is fogged out, when she comes out of the fog, she's going to thank you for not giving up on her.

The woman you see is not your wife. Focus on the Plan. I get 2x4d a lot because I do the same things you are doing, but I can tell you to learn from my mistakes. My W and I do stuff, but it's because I'm proactive. She called me a stalker and said I would do anything to get my way. I don't give her so much space that she doesn't think about me. I text daily. Some times she's annoyed, but I'm still there being kind and sweet.

Follow the plan.

Hi stillwaiting1963,

I've been reading your postings and for what its worth want to give you a bit of encouragement. The vets here know this better than us, but things can get better by working the plans and doing the best plan A you can without expectations. In my own situation the fogbabble my WW said in the beginning to me was beyond belief, as was her callousness, history rewrites, etc. I look back now 5 months later and still can't believe she said and did some of those things. She does not even seem to remember it herself.

Work the plans. There are no quick fixes, but days will become weeks and weeks will become months and then you look back and the progress is clearly visible, either way. It just wasn't visible at the time.

I wish you well.

BH

As others have said, she is trying to upset you. Not only that, she is trying to bait you into a fight. Don't buy into it.

Pass the info and nothing else. Don't let her dictate the mood. YOU dictate the mood.

Just wanted to send my support and tell you that you are doing a great job being strong for the kids, they may not say anything but they will know and appreciate the time and effort and selflessness you are showing.........years from now they will let you know they noticed and are thankful you stood by them when they were transitioning into adulthood..........
I agree all you have to do is pass the information when you feel like it, your ww will know if she was hands on she wouldn't be out of the loop, it is not your job to help her be a mother that's her job.
Sometimes you just need to be still and only focus on what you do and your life, just do what GJM and Blackhawk do, be sweet, stay connected and let the events a family can have together draw her back, when you are together, be that man she married.......It takes a lot of time to defog and for them to get their logic brain back...........Don't be angry or disappointed, it isn't the woman you married. it still is the fogged out alien that took over your wife.........
Plan A, look good, smell good, no expectations........do little things she won't expect....it will make a big impact, don't expect any thank you's for now......
the rollercoaster is tough, keep your limbs in so you don't break anything.......
your a good dad, remember that and a good husband and someday she will see that too......

GJM, BH, H3, Jessi - thank you so much for your support and words of encouragement. Sometimes I have to step back and remember that we're all in the same boat.

I realize now that you all keep me grounded - and that's good.

What are her top emotional needs - and what are you doing to fulfill them?

That is how you have an effective Plan A.

Focus.

Blogging about text messages and how she's not there but you are IS NOT PLAN A.

This is how I would rank her top emotional needs. I could be off on one or two. If I understand correctly, you want to meet the emotional needs pre-affair, correct?

Admiration
Financial Support
Conversation
Family Commitment
Domestic Support

Let me try and explain why I chose these.

Admiration - my wife always wants to be the center of attention. Not to the point where its overwhelming, but certainly to the point by outsiders that it's an obvious trait. I feel she looks for external validation.

Financial Support - Even though we didn't manage our money well,she never offered to jump in and take over the bills (well, once she did for maybe 2 years). So I feel she is the type that just wants to feel comfortable with someone else taking on that responsibility. Also, in the EN description, it asked 'does a person's income or wealth make him or her more attractive to you'? My wife has a cousin that owns his own business and they always travel. My wife has always commented on this. My wife has a good friend (divorced) who is dating a guy that owns his own business and they also travel. The OM is a co-owner of a family business. My wife says she's not materialistic, but I think to a large extent if she's not, then she wants to be. We always had to have nicer things, not overly expensive, just nice or new. However, she is nostalgic and likes old and used things as well.

Conversation - my wife is very sociable. I think this relates back to her need for admiration, external validation, and self centered (somewhat). We would have conversation, sometimes deep topics, but more often just average conversation. We never avoided talking with each other, I just think that maybe both of us were a little immature in the need to have mature conversations that were more meaningful.

Family Commitment - my wife was a wonderful, caring, and nurturing mother. We both went into parenting mode, not paying as much attention to each other as we should have. Never neglecting each other (I thought), but definitely not doing the date night or other little things like we did for each other pre-marriage. This was one of the things she claimed I did - spent too much time with the kids. That may be, but I also know she spent an EQUAL amount of time with them. We did everything as a family while the kids were growing up. She brought this up the spring of 2010. That year we did everything together. Date nights, went out on the town, held hands, made out like teenagers. To the point that our family was asking why we were so mushy. We were doing fantastic I thought. Then it all started falling apart by late spring/early summer 2011.

Domestic Support - my wife needs to keep a clean house. We all knew that Saturday meant help mom out cleaning and laundry. While we did that, she would often be pushing us to help her regardless. Got to the point where the kids and I didn't look forward to Saturday rolling around. I always made sure I helped her with cleaning & laundry. Were there times when she did both of those without my help? Sure. But there were also times I did that alone without her help. And I cooked about 80%-90% of the time and didn't mind. I like to cook and she always said she would rather I did than her.

NOTE: I feel that Affection could also be in her top 5 ENs as well. I would always given her back rubs, foot rubs, flowers, gifts, remembering little things she likes when shopping and getting them. I love holding her hand, but we didn't do that so much these past years. Not that I didn't want to, I guess I would just not think about it as much. The year 2010 I mentioned above in Family Commitment, we held hands a lot, and I feel she liked that. I would always hold the door open for her. But even though I did a lot of these things, I question just how important they were to her in order for her to go start an A. But I wanted to touch on the Affection EN.

I feel pretty confident that I chose the ones that are most important to her, and that I ranked them fairly correct.

Now as far as fulling them:

Admiration - Now that she's moved out, I'm not sure how I can meet this. Plus, I think know she likes attention from other people.

Financial Support - if her need to have someone with more disposable income is a big one, then I'm not sure how I can meet this. I make a good income and together we did really well. But if she's looking for someone to just throw money at her, or where she doesn't need to worry so much about it, then I'm SOL.

Conversation - I'm attempting to slowly work normal, non-kid/financial conversation back into my texts with her. I'm hoping she will open up more and reciprocate. Because of what I've been through, I am very apprehensive to just call her up and talk (sad isn't it?).

Family Commitment - I take care of the household and kid's needs. I'm trying to find things to do as a family and showing her this, so she can perhaps see what she's missing out on and think about things.

Domestic Support - not sure about this one, other than taking care of the household.

I guess that's it for now. Hopefully I provided more information to work with.

Have you read this?...I think some how you need to out compete this man for your wife as stated in the article.

What to do with an unfaithful wife

I've had a double whammy from this whole ordeal. 1) the POSOM is not married, 2) the POSOM is a co-owner of a business. So I never could do a OMW exposure (which have the best outcome).

While I do not know his financial status, it is apparently greater than mine to attract her to him. However, he has not taken her on trips, etc., and tend to just do things locally.

So I'm not sure how to directly compete with him. I've got 26 years of history and kids with her, that's the only real positives I have on my side.

If someone else who's been in my situation has some good ideas on 'angles of attack', let me know.

I wish I could give you better advice SW...I hate seeing others in my shoes. It's a cold world we live in. It's hard to believe how bad things have gotten over the years. I fear for my children when they get ready to marry the person they want to spend the rest of their lives with.

1) the POSOM is not married.

But he has people of some sort, his children, customers who should be exposed to.

2) the POSOM is a co-owner of a business.....While I do not know his financial status,

Did you expose to his partner, or threaten a lawsuit, also chances are resonable this guy is dishonest financially as well, you could phone in a "tip" to the IRS or state tax authorities. Lots of guys overstate their wealth to get women.

God Bless
Gamma

I hear ya.

I think right now my most 'bang for the buck' will be to try and talk to the OM's ex-wife. If I can do that, I may find out something that could give me an edge.

SW,
You've been saying that for a few weeks now. Have you found anything new to contact her?

LOL, I know. I do have her address which was updated last October. I just need to drive around and find it. Not showing up well on Google Maps. Not sure how to find her phone number based only on address.

Gamma, good ideas. His partner is his brother, there may be others, not sure how to find out. Problem with the red-neck party type, which is what there tends to be in this area, is they could care-less what their brother is doing.

Now the looking into his business is intriguing. Being a small private business, there's not a whole lot available publicly. I have looked some.

Was wondering if anyone else experienced a time when their separated spouse suddenly was more reluctant to come back home to visit kids, etc. My WW would at least stop by the house to visit with the kids for a half hour our so several times per week. Now that seems to have stopped. This Thursday will be two weeks since she has been over. She texts and calls the kids, but she won't come over. DD stays at her place once a week, but DS has not physically seen her in almost 2 weeks.

I invited her over to watch the super bowl, but she said no thanks, she would be uncomfortable. So for the past 2 months she was ok stopping by (often times when I wasn't here), but now suddenly she's uncomfortable. Tomorrow night is my birthday and DD told wife that we were all going out to eat. My wife told her ok, but we're going out to eat. In other words, she did not want to come over.

Both times it would have been just the 4 of us.

Has anyone experienced this with their WS?

Just spit-balling here, but it seems the longer she's removed from your home the more it becomes the "enemy's" turf. This is why I suggested Super Bowl at another location to get her to let her guard down a little.

Okay, just what have you done to attack this from the OM side of things? I hear excuses, but that's not gonna help you. You need some action. I'm going to say something that's probably gonna hurt, but it needs to be said.......

Right now, you are looking like nothing more than a big-assed WIMP to your wife right now. She is rolling all over you and you are letting her. Oh, the OM is probably laughing his [censored] off at you as well. He's easily boffing your wife and you are doing absolutely NOTHING to stop him!!

Look, I know you're hurting. I've been there; I know the pain. But I'm going to tell you one thing right now; if you don't start taking some serious action right now, the pain of this affair is gonna pale by comparison down the road to the pain you'll feel because of YOUR inaction to stand tall and stand proud.

It's time for you to man up. I want to hear some serious clank clank from you. I'll know it when I hear and feel it. All I hear now is the sound of a one handed clap.

SW1963,

So sorry to hear how she has abandoned her children, but in a sense that may be a good indicator, it sounds like OM is a controlling [censored] who will be getting progressively worse and worse in his treatment of your WW. Hopefully your WW is getting closer to the breaking point with OM where she will see him for what he is, or OM will start "cheating" on your WW. You might want to find out if he is a catch and release kind of OM.

God Bless
Gamma

TW, I hear you, but I have absolutely no idea what I can do to this guy and it frustrates the HELL out of me. The guy is not married, I have no one to expose to. My wife and him go party with his brother and his wife. They are not going to give one crap that I come to them telling them that I want to save my marriage.

I want to clank-clank, but I have nothing to clank with at this point. Like Melody mentioned earlier in my thread, additional exposure at this point will probably not help. If I had a silver bullet like OMW, then it would.

If anyone out there has any experience with a WW that ran off with a single or divorced guy, let me know. Everyone so far has had a OMW or OWH to expose to. I need help in this kind of situation.

They own their own family business, so exposure there is no good. I'm not even sure whether OM has living parents.

A good source of information may be his ex-wife. I need to try and track her down this weekend. I don't have a phone number, only an address. I plan on doing this. I can hopefully find out more information about his family from her.

Gamma, she hasn't abandoned the kids totally. She still texts and calls them. Sees DD once a week. But definitely is not making the effort to see DS. Each week is a little different in how she contacts them or sees them. But there is a definite beginning trend of her avoiding the house.

Interesting thought that OM might be controlling.

You can get IN HIS FACE and let him know that YOU are going to make his life a living HELL! I'm so pissed at you right now I can hardly stand it.

Okay, I'm not advocating violence here (NOT at all), but you need to face this SOB straight up and lay it out for him. Like I said earlier, take some nasty friends with you for HIS protection..and yours as well. Get in his face and fight for your wife! What part of this are you not getting????

Don't do anything stupid though. I did, and went to jail for a couple of days. You know what though???

I'd do it again in a nanosecond if it were my wife and family I was losing, but that's just me.

If I wasn't a Marine and held to a higher standard, I would have been physical too, but you have children and don't want to do anything to lose them. I had those same thoughts. I'm a martial arts instructor and I grew up fighting in gangs, but that's not the MB way. It's not the mature thing to do. Words never killed anyone though!

I love the old dead guys... Edmund Burke, an Irish Statesman said this:

All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing...

Today is my birthday and as it stands, we're all going out to eat tonight. DD was talking with WW last night and apparently WW had tentative plans to go out with a girlfriend tonight. Sounds like WW changed her plans at DD's request to go with us.

We'll see how tonight goes. I know I need to be cheery and I will do my best. It's going to be hard. This is the first time in 26 years that my wife hasn't 'been there' for my birthday. It's going to be hard I can tell, it's only morning and I'm having problems with this day already.

I know this post isn't conducive to anything. I just need a place to let my feelings out, that's all. I really feel lost right now. This whole separation is hard on me. I feel like I need to just step away from everything for awhile. No Plan anything.

SW,

Happy Birthday! It's good that your W is going with you. Put your best charm on. The day is about you, but share it with her. Make her feel important too. Remember, no plan equals no action which means no results. You have all day to pull your self together. Find stuff to talk about because things may go silent. Get a haircut. Wear clothes she hasn't seen you in or it's been a while since she's seen you in them, but their her favorites. Smell nice. You can do this! You will do this! It's a chance to open some doors. Take advantage of the opportunity.

Thanks GJM!

My W texted me happy birthday (no exclamation mark, but a happy birthday nonetheless), and asked if we could meet for dinner at 5:30 instead of 6:30. Where we're eating is near her work, so she said she could just meet us there. I replied back thanking her and suggesting we meet later, give her more time after work to get ready. Plus said kids snack after school and they may not be hungry earlier.

I hope I didn't LB by suggesting a different time. 5:30 is kind of early for everyone. I can't go back now and say, well, 5:30 is ok, Ill tell the kids not to snack, cause then I'd be waffling back and forth and not sticking to my suggestion. Guess I will wait and see what she replies.

Interesting how this wouldn't be an issue in the past, but now I look everything over with a fine tooth comb to make sure I'm doing the absolute right thing.

I thought she had a hidden motive. She replied "I had promised my gf Kim I would meet her later....so I thought if we met earlier I could still see her later."

Everyone, this is my birthday, it comes around once a year (that's what my DD said to her last night). So my WW makes plans on my birthday.

It won't even be enjoyable tonight. It's just something rushed so she can get it over with and go meet her GF.

I'm VERY tempted to just reply "That's ok, you go ahead with Kim, the kids and I will go out."

I'm very serious about this. I can tell you that everyone in my family and her BILs would slam me alongside the head if I gave in to her. I mean come on, she can't set aside this one night for me and the kids.

Do it
All the more reason to do it. Show her that you and the kids will be just fine without her.

And do have fun. Set all this crap aside for one night and have fun. You DO deserve it.

Problem you don't know if WW is still seeing the OM with her living out of the home.

Problem is WW is using her GF Kim as an excuse to hide she has plans to meet with the OM.

Problem for WW is she could not find away to tell DD no so she relented and said to DD she would come.

Then used the can we meet earlier to get you thinking about all of these things, get mad, blow your top, damage your plan A, justify her being a WW.

I think what you have done was the best way to respond.

We don't know WW real intentions/motives. Guessing and we can guess wrong. So the best course is that you said to WW that moving up will not be good for the kids because of the after school snacks.

If anything Kim should understand that family has to come first. Though you can't say this to WW.

So just stay calm. Use this as a way to plan A. Michelangelo di Lodovico Buonarroti did not make any of his statues with one blow of his hammer onto his chisel. You justa keepa chiselin'.

She replied "but I can cancel again....its a group of girls that get together once a month...this month it was all u can eat shrimp at twos company....of course I woouldn't b eating shrimp....but would visit instead."

I replied "6:30 worked out when I asked the kids last night, and by the time I get out of work and all. We'd love to have you there."

TR - I don't think she is making this up to see the OM. Maybe, but if it's still hot and heavy between them, then she would just change her plans with him in order to appease DD. She's out on her own and can see him 6 nights a week without me even having a clue. For her to make up a story for one night doesn't make sense.

I still don't know what the status of her relationship with OM is. Like I mentioned, a gut feel tells me things have cooled a little, but she is still out there living the single life.

Those darn WW's. Ya gotta love 'em, all the while hating what they've become.

She replied "Ok ill b there at 630...I miss the kids"

So should I reply something like. "Sounds good/great. We'll see you then?" Or leave it at that?

Skip that...I don't need to be bothering you guys with what to reply.

Actually, I'd like to take advantage of what she said to reply back something along the lines of "sounds good....the kids miss you too." But I don't know if that would be the right thing to say.

SW,

Enjoy your day, happy b-day by the way........this is a positive, she could have said no..........look good and be charming and sexy, look right into her eyes when you speak, get a touch in or a hug.........laugh and have fun with the kids.....

I would say "They miss you too. We all do." That's just my thinking though

Wishfull thinking on your part.

Why?

WW left you for OM.

WW are known to put OM before not just the BH but WW will put the OM in front of her BC/betrayed children as well. So when OM's says he has plans for the two of them WW'd do not want to disappoint their OM's.

WW has nothing to gain leting you know that she is seeing OM period.

So there will always be the sinking feeling that you may be getting played. Hurts to think that so people tend to down play the negative senario and push the postive reasons.

I don't know where your WW is with the OM or living the single life.

Thing is as a general or even a coach you when you are facing battle/team where the odds are staked high against you. You have to keep your people focused on how to defeat the enemy. If not your side will lose for sure.

Thing also is that your ship has hit an ice berg. You can't see all the damage. You can only try to stop the water from coming in and pumping out what has entered. Thing is you can't fight half way. You have to used every means that you can use to say the ship for a chance to keep it a float.

Though if this point is reached where you have to be honest and realise that the ship can't be saved you must get off into a life boat before the ship takes you down.

That's why stay calm and plan A big time.

Thanks Jessi!

I recall DD telling me a couple months ago [regarding WW], "kill her with kindness, dad."

That comment has stuck with me. I think there was a reason why DD said that to me. She's a pretty bright little girl and has some good advice.

And as GJM mentioned, I need to stick with a plan - and that's Plan A the best I can. My philosophy at this point, and what I'm going to portray to her:

1. Be confident. Know what you want, what you're doing, and
stick with it.
2. Be charming (I've already had a girl tell me recently that
I'm charming - this was just in a conversation we had) so I
still must have that!
3. Work on meeting her Emotional Needs.
4. Be nice, but not needy. She's always said throughout the
years that I'm a nice guy. Let her know that now.
5. Be laid back, and don't let anything get to me. This was the
attitude I had when we met and dated. Of course with kids and
a family, things changed. But I'm working to get back to the
laid back attitude.
6. This is the one I'm going to work on: be mysterious. Try to
keep her on edge and thinking. She knows me. She knows what
kind of a person I really am. So do a little of the
unexpected to keep her guessing.

I thought my birthday dinner went really nice. I had the impression that my wife wasn't too sure if she wanted to sit by my at first, she made a comment to DS to switch seats with him cause she was going to share fajitas with DD, but she never switched seats and sat next to me the whole time.

It was kind of weird to say the least. There is a definite feeling that we're more friends that husband and wife. But that's just the fact that we're been apart for over 2 months, and also her demeanor radiates that of a single person. So she definitely is in the mindset that she's a single woman. She did make the comment "see we can all have a good time together no matter the circumstances.

I get the impression that my WW thinks that everything is just fine, that we can all just get together. What she doesn't realize is that if we D, then I will never speak to or look at her ever again. So if she thinks we can continue like this, where she thinks that we're good friends, she has another thought coming. I'm of the impression that a good Plan A, one where we could do more 'friend' things as a family (I doubt she would want to do anything just the two of us), followed by a serious Plan B would have an impact on her. Because she is under the impression that we will all just get along, and if that doesn't happen....

She had a couple wines and I a couple beers. At first there was a little distance between us (physically), but then as we all talked, she would tap me on the arm as she was making a point, she did this several times. One time she even put her hand on my arm as she was talking. I'm not reading into this at all, because I'm sure it didn't mean anything. I mean, she would do this with any friend she was comfortable around. It was just nice feeling her touch though.

She insisted on buying dinner for me and the kids. Was my birthday present, so I thought that was nice.

When we left, she gave DD a hug (I think DS also), but she also gave me a hug, and I gave her a nice hug back. Once again, I'm mot reading into this AT ALL, because I know it was just my birthday and she was being nice.

So we all had nice conversation. For the most part just like any family dining out in the past.

She does exhibit the personality that she feels she's a single woman. So I don't understand how she can not miss her family. She even texted today that she missed the kids.

DD was going to stay with her tomorrow night, but DD said she might go to a magic show at the high school and WW asked what about staying over. The two if them couldn't decide on the logistics of it, so WW told DD "that's ok, I might come over this weekend and bug you." So who knows, maybe she will stop over this weekend to visit, who knows.

I was cleaned up, had on a new shirt, neat hair, cologne. Honestly, nothing new for me, outside the new shirt. I smiled and much as I could remember to, had a pleasant, positive attitude, looked my wife in the eyes, complimented her, agreed with her. The only way I could've been cheerier is if I had about 3 more of those beers.

So I don't know, I would think that many more pleasant outings like this would perhaps get her to warm up to me. But I still have a strong feeling that she's not interested in all at entertaining the idea of returning home. Though she did mention missing the kids, so maybe that will increase with time.

I talked to my manager at work (he went through the same thing two years ago and his wife returned. Of course it took her getting pregnant to hit rock bottom). My manager questions my WW's motive behind her fence sitting and lack of filing (don't want to jinx myself by saying this). He's still of the impression that she's keeping me as a backup option.

My wife commented several times that money was tight this paycheck and she would have to wait till next when DD questioned her about some things she wanted. WW even joked that there wouldn't be enough on her credit card for dinner.

So what did I establish this evening besides the fact that I'm going to get the grilled chicken tacos again?

1. My wife and I can carry on normal conversation just like we used to. Sometimes a glass or two of wine helps out. We honestly did not have any awkward moments. And if we started to have those, a few more glasses of wine and we can't shut each other up.
2. I know she misses the kids dearly.
3. She mentioned to me that when I find out when the information day is for DS's college, to let her know. I thought she was still talking to DS, then I looked over and she was talking to me. She was talking real calm and sincere, looking me in the eyes asking to please let her know what day it will be.So she was being sincere tonight and not mean at all.
4. The hug surprised me. Did not expect it at all. The arm touches were nice. If anything it told me that she was still comfortable around me.
5. She made references that implies she's still comfortable with the fact that she's living on her own.

Guess that's it for now.

One more thing. I kind of sensed some form of distance between my DS and wife. He was nice and talked to her as normal, but I could tell there was definitely a missing element in the relationship they both once had. The relationship my WW had with our kids is changed and most likely damaged.

Still:

What are you doing about exposure?

Your post is a fine blog, but what ACTION are you taking to KILL this A?

The message that you are sending to your WW is that you are just AOK with her having an affair right under your nose and in your face. Do you get that? None of this matters.

Your WW is walking all over you and you are letting her out of fear. She knows that, and that knowledge is and will drive her further from you.

Time to man up and end this A. Now. Stop with this p--sy footing around.

Ok surfer, give me some ideas. You've read my thread, give me some pointers. What did you do? I agree wholeheartedly that exposure is important. I exposed back in the beginning. Ticked off WW.

Even Melody mentioned that any additional exposure at this time wouldn't end the A, but may damage the OM. And along the same lines, Melody mentions that this guy very well may just walk away at some point. I'm not banking on that, but I am trying to determine the best way to tactfully get the most bang for the buck with what resources I have available. Do the wrong thing and I could cause irrepairable damage in eyes of W. A lot of this is playing mind games.

What I would like some assistance with is how to expose an OM that has no wife. I have yet to hear anyone's stories on how they successfully exposed with limited contacts. All I hear is expose, expose, expose. I would like to hear some tactics, not just expose to this one and that one. I need ideas people....I already know the importance of exposure.

And yeah, I'll stop the 'blogging', though I thought this was also a forum that can be used for venting and just talking in between the hard core serious stuff - which doesn't happen on a daily basis.

sigh

Surfer, I agree with you on this 100% But I need ideas. This site has a wealth of ideas and things people have tried. Many people that have been on this site for awhile have seen many techniques. I would like to hear some of them.

Still - A nuclear exposure that causes your WW to become very very angry is a good thing.

If you have targets to expose, then do it today! EXPOSE wide and far.

Dr. Harley states on average an affair will end six months after exposure. I have been on this forum for almost a year, and a rarity is a continuing affair when nuclear exposure was done. Almost always I see the affair ending.

Please Please continue to use your thread to vent, rant, talk, ask questions ... it will help you heal.

I think exposing again and giving yourself a time line on the PLan A is what is needed now. I think if you Plan B'ed her now she would miss the comfort she is feeling with the stay friends thing.......I would not fix things between her and your son, that is her job and it will add extra concern for her for her direction in life right now.........
Just re-expose to those closest to her and don't protect her from her truth......I am glad your b-day went well......she will look back on that day for comfort being with her family..........
I say let her feel what it's like to be single, maybe don't answer the texts or phone calls right away, make her think you are having a life without her, be misterious.
Make her wonder and live more of her life without you......see how quickly she comes back to you with some excuse to why she has to stop by.
stay on task, stay strong

That you don't know your WW motivations. Your co worker can be right keeping you as a back up plan. Buttering you up so you make divorce easy on her and she gets the better financial deal.

Could be your ceating doubts. Making WW start to second guess herself. Realisation forming what she gains with OM and what she loses with OM and that she maybe losing more then she will gain if WW chooses not to recover.

I asked my Magic 8 Ball for which of the above is true.

Magic 8 Ball said: pick the right answer out of that, magic only goes so far.

So you want to recover and save your family you have to go with plan A is starting to work and you're going to work plan A as good as if you were melodylane.

From a WW that is touching you, also saying she is willing to come to your house this weekend to see DD, when she just said she doesn't feel comfortable going there to you prior the birthday diner.

This shows that plan A is working or WW is working you. I building you up then saying it can be scheme on WW's part. Have you known WW to bild any Wooden Horses? (couldn't help myself)

Unfortunately this is why you need to plan A like a stud. You may need to go to plan B.

Don't let going to plan B be a discouragement and distract your plan A fighting. For plan B to be it's most effective you needed to put on a stellar plan A.

How lon are you in plan A now?
How long do you plan on doing plan A?

For melodylane, a person that adovcates exposure all the time every time but wants you to hold off there must be a good reason for doing so for the time being. I think part of it is that with WW out of the house if you get WW mad enough she won't let you anywhere near enough to plan A her.

I think then when you are ready to give WW the plan B letter then the time to do full all out exposure. Re expose those already done and include everyone you can and throw in the kitchen sink as well.

Melody and or Pepper what to you think?

TR - That was my take on what MelodyLane was getting at - and at this point I think it makes sense. In 26 years, I�ve never known my wife to build wooden horses. She takes the path of least resistance and lives for the moment. The words planning, objectives, and goals do not exist in her vocabulary. From knowing her and observing her recent behaviors, she�s living her �single� lifestyle and not taking into consideration how this will impact her future. She does miss the kids, so that is having an impact on her.

Jessi - interesting that you mention this. I was doing just this prior to posting my story on MB several weeks ago. Not answering her texts right away, not getting sucked into her rants and drama. The not getting back to her in a timely fashion (or even at all) really got her torqued. So that appeared to impact her. With a stellar Plan A, then Plan B, I think having no contact would cause her to go ballistic. Then again, maybe not. As TR referred, shaking the magic 8 ball is akin to speculation.

However, when I posted my story and MelodyLane replied that I should work on a stellar Plan A, and not do some of the things I was doing that are counter to Plan A, well it both confused and got me thinking.

So guys, I think you have me on the right track, I'm just readjusting myself.

I've been working on realigning myself to Plan A since I first posted on here (1/29/12) and discovered I really should be in Plan A, not a 'loose' Plan B. Initial exposure was back in August. I really didn't know about MB back then. Was more or less doing a 'loose' Plan A while WW was still living in the house.

So I technically reset my Plan A time frame since posting on here. My schedule is to do Plan A up to 6 months if necessary, gauging the results as I go to determine if Plan B is warranted.

Another quick question. Please keep in mind, I'm asking these so I know that I'm on the right track.

Yesterday for going out to dinner, the kids and I decided on 6:30 and DD relayed that to WW - and she was ok with that. Then yesterday morning she texted whether we could do 5:30. I texted that 7:00 would work, giving her more time. She replied back that she had plans to meet her GF as the reason for requesting an earlier time. I stood my ground and nicely replied that 6:30 worked the best for the kids and I, and that we would love to have her join us.

She then replied that she would be there at 6:30, not pushing the issue any more.

My question: In the past I would almost always compromise to make sure that my wife was happy. It was never a 'Yes Dear' relationship, but I'm flexible and easy going, so whatever she wanted to do was usually fine with me. Although a woman does not want to have a man that is controlling, would she have seen the way that I always compromised for her in the past as being weak, or a pushover? I never got that impression from her, ever.

So when I stood firm and nicely said yesterday that we are sticking with our original plans and would love to have her join us, that she somewhere in the depths of her mind saw this as a show of strength and confidence? Standing on my own?

Maybe, but what is your goal here? We all speculate different things about WS, but things like this you will never know. Try not to drive yourself crazy wondering what your W thinks.

Adjust your plan according to her actions. What you did seemed to work at the time. Maybe you can see if she has plans on Saturday and take her to do something enjoyable. Go get coffee or something.

Keep that list of EN's at the top of mind.

I would try to do one thing per category / per week.

Stick to:

Domestic Support -- invite her for meals, keep the house looking great, make a change in the house and ask for her participation/opinion

Admiration -- try to fit in a sincere, not over the top compliment. Stay away from her appearance, focus more on accomplishments.

Family -- include her in son's college planning, try to fit in a family trip SERIOUSLY. I know you're worried about money (but divorce is more expensive than fixing the marriage). At the very least pitch it to her and get her input.

Still,

You asked for a plan, and so I will share my thoughts right beside the advice you recieved today.

The Plan A advice you have is dead on. Plan A all the way. Here is what jumps out at me...don't confuse Plan A with Plan C or Plan Doormat. Plan A = Carrot ana the Stick, and what my perception here is, there is no stick.

I could be terribly wrong, but I don't have any indication of where exposure and confronting OM has had any impact on your WW at all. That tells me that you have done "some" exposure, but not nearly the nuke that needs to happen. I hear a milky exposure. I also hear that you "can't" find any data on OM. Is that correct? He is not married, so you can't find data?

I am asking as, back to my harsh response yesterday, I hear very milk-toast from you. I have not heard or read the hell-come-forth on this OM, and/or on this A. Maybe I am wrong, but what I read is Plan Compromise, fold, try not to piss off WW. I read fear.

And, with that perception I will leave you to the folks that are better suited to help you, and they will. Trust them.

I just have major trouble with Plan Doormat, and that's what I see here.

Still,

I don't want to discourage you from sharing your struggles here...do so at will. But, stick to the plan.

How to find OM? Go to the operation investigate forum. You WILL find him, and family, and neighbors, and...go to the county auditor website, the civil case county website, the local county website. You will find dates, family, etc. You have to do the homework. You are at WAR. Go to war.

Takes work, my friend. A lot of it, but you will find what you need to find OM info to expose if you choose to.

Well, an interesting development. My wife is wearing a ring on her left finger. Looks like a little promise ring. I texted her and asked what it's for. She just said "really SW?" The she texted "good night".

We're still married. She hasn't even filed, let alone mention divorce in any serious manner and she's wearing a little ring from OM? It's a little plain silver band with two little hearts and a little diamond in each heart.

I responded: "<WW>, is it going to be our kids or this guy? If we divorce we will not have the money to send DS to school. That's reality. Are you willing to sacrifice your kids for this guy? You need to step away from <OM> and sit down and seriously think about <DS> and <DD>."

Still,

This is what I'm trying to tell you. The A is still hot and heavy active. You've gotta do everything to KILL it. That means a nuke exposure. For Pete Sake, go tell this guy that he is DONE with your W. And then, expose, again at once and to all targets today.

You need to kill this A, my friend. And, that has the best chance with exposure. You have exposure letter examples here. Do you need them again?

Hon, none of your words matter. You are trying to reason with a fall-down drunk.

Now is the time -- pissed enough? Ready to fight?

You can get this turned around. Ready now?

You need to kill this adultery with a nuclear bomb exposure.

Get a list of targets tonight and post them here. Think of everyone and anyone who will listen.

KILL THIS ADULTERY!!!

OM needs his colleagues, friends, family to hear you loud and clear.

Get it done and make their lives a living nightmare.

You are being replaced as we speak --- KILL THIS VILE ADULTERY TONIGHT!!!

How did you find out WW had a new ring?

At this point I would call the Harleys. Her actions appear that she is buttering you up to make divorce go easy and all her way.

It appears that it's time to go planB. Do you have a IM in place?

Quoted for Truth.

Surfer, I'm PISSED now.

Guys, this is sudden. I don't have anything in place. I need to clear my head for a little bit.

She was wearing the damn ring right in front of me!

She hasn't replied back yet.

SW, when are you going to learn you can NOT educate a WS??? Dammit, when the hell are you gonna man up???

Okay, sorry to do this, but I'm going to step away from your thread. Your inaction and obvious submission to being cuckolded is simply frustrating beyond belief, and just way too painful to watch. You just can't help someone who isn't willing to help himself.

At least our buddy GJM took some action and busted up his wife's affair. ACTION!! I kind of hoped you would have learned something from him, but I guess I was wrong. I understand where you are coming from though. What the hell could anyone learn about fighting from a Marine?!?!



Sorry for the harsh words. Never been accused of being tactful, but never been accused of not getting my point across either. I can live with that.

Best of luck, and I mean that.

Has anyone every heard of such a thing? What the hell would an OM want to give a ring to a married woman? Even if it's only a little ring with small diamonds? Do these two think they're in high school? She hasn't said straight out it's from him. but she sure is implying it.

So far she hasn't gotten back to me. I'm assuming she doesn't know how to reply or want to.

WW needs to seriously think about the kids.

Where are the letters at? I will need some help modifying them.

TW, please don't step away. I needed something like this to wake me up and piss me off. You know how hard this is. I need your help.

I am ready to expose now.

Err, get more contacts to expose further that is. I don't want to make it sound like I didn't expose at all.

TT one of my BIL's, he's pissed beyond pissed.

Can I get to her Facebook friends to expose if I'm no longer friends with her? I can see her wall through mutual friends.

Copy as many friends from her facebook page as possible. GET ALL OF OM'S CONTACTS IF YOU CAN.

NUCLEAR EXPOSURE TONIGHT.

Get MelodyLane's exposure 101 letter for facebook.

Get OM's family if you can on Facebook.

Stay up as long as you have to and send out the letters.

YOU ARE BEING REPLACED AS WE SPEAK. THE RING MEANS NOTHING - YOU ARE BEING REPLACED ... THAT MEANS EVERYTHING!!!!

Expect her to call you everyname in the book
Strut her hickies in front of you
Tell you they have great sex
Yell at you
Not speak to you for days, weeks, months
Threaten you with lawsuits, divorce, lawsuits, divorce
Continue to curse you out
TELL YOU SHE WILL NEVER EVER EVER EVER COME BACK TO YOU.

Get to the exposure NOW

OK, take a step back, Still.

Breathe and stay calm. You got some fiesty posts from me, Tiger, The Road, etc. It's because we KNOW what's going on. Absorb those realities and take no action. Take a moment.

OK, now (not much time?) you need to accept that you can adopt MB concepts or not. If you do, you must expose this A for what it is. Expose, hon. Yes, again and in the right way,

Many say it, and as a witness I will tell you that never has one regretted it. Only regretted not doing it sooner.

The only hope for your marriage is that there is no affair in it, and it's your job to excise the affair from your marriage.

Major balls-hugs to you.

I'm a slow typer! Still - NOW YOU ARE TALKING, MAN!!!

Get pissed and go get your family back! Good man!!!!!!!!!!!!

Very, very proud of you and this attitude. You've got great help with finding OM. I'll read in a sec and see if I can help/add.

Yes, and cut/copy any Facebook friends lists to a Word doc before you send msgs so you have once you are blocked. Time msgs 30 seconds apart so that you are not blocked as Spam by Facebook.

Still - re-read Praying's message. And again. Nothing could be more urgent.

Still: has anyone ever heard of such a thing? Yeah. Over and over and over and over.

Right here. That's why we call it the script. (((Still))!

BAD INFO

You must wait 60 seconds or FB will block you out.

I 'contacted' OM for the first time. I sent a text to him: "Did you give my married wife <first><last> a ring?"

I didn't want to send anything that would land me in legal trouble, or be considered slander. I didn't know what else to say. I mainly did it at this point just to get his attention. To let WW know that I contacted him.

I need to somehow make things uncomfortable for him, to the point where it's not worth it for him to stay with my W.

I made some changes to Melody's FB letter:

Dear friends and family,

I am writing this message because you are an important person in the lives of W and I. As some of you may know, W and I are separated. W has been carrying on an affair with OM who lives in <city>, since at least May of last year. The purpose of the separation is so that she can carry on her affair without my interference.

She refuses to end the affair. I want our marriage to recover from this affair. If you have any influence on W, please do what you can to get her to stop this affair. Our kids want us to stay married, I want to stay married, but the affair must end.

As our friends and family, I am asking that you use your influence and talk with W to end her affair and try to work on our marriage. Our marriage can be salvaged. Please support her in doing the right thing. Please support DS, DD, and I. Please support our marriage.

I would so appreciate your support and prayers.

So glad you are now going to drive the rollercoaster yourself, this is your best shot at coming between the affair partners.........exposure killed my husband's affair, it is hard to carry on when everyone you love now knows what you are doing......
Stay strong SW, do it big and hard, then sit back and watch the affair blow up, your wife will be pissed, so what, just keep saying I did what I had to do to save my marriage and my family........Then you give her your list of requirements in order to stay in the marriage and tell you hope she choses what could be great .......Tell her you are willing when she comes to her senses, if she choses the affair then your relationship will have to end and your family will have to end as well as she knows it now.............
But first the affair has to be blown to hell where it belongs.......
good luck

You must expose and do it NOW! Who cares if she gets mad as hell. She's left you any way. You have nothing to lose!

I gave my POSOM a ring because, yes, it made me feel like I was in high school. Affairs are effortless. Your wife's OM feels like it's effortless right now. Wait until you expose and his world is turned upside down. He'll feel she isn't worth it.

Go to plan B after exposure........this will scare the daylights out of your WW.

I've said this many times on here but you cannot allow fear of her reaction to dissuade you. Believe me, she is scared as hell. She just isn't showing it.

Good Luck!
CT

I need advice or help on this - is there anything that I can text the OM that will get him thinking. Anything that anyone has successfully tried? I do not want to keep pestering OM and come across as desperate, because I'm not. I would like to take small, well defined and strategically targeting messages to him.

Just focus on exposing to eveyone else for now, I would forget about the OM, do you think he cares or feels guilty, he isn't like you he doesn't have that in him....
He will just look at it like you are a nut case and it will just reaffirm to him why it's right for your wife to have the affair with him......
Exposure will get him thinking......

Melody Lane can tell you exactly what to do. She's a pro!

You need to understand something. Affairs aren't real. Your wife is attempting to live out a fantasy; however, once reality settles in......she'll be regretful.

I have an ex-friend who left her family and married OM all within a span of a year and a half. She ended up telling me that she regrets marrying him and she proceeded to have an EA with an old boyfriend.

Your wife is on drugs right now and will not listen to reason. You need fear to shock her out of her fog.

Shout out to Melody Lane. You can't sit on this! This POSOM is tearing your family apart!
CT

If it was me, I would text him that you're not going to give up on your marriage and you'll do what you have to in order to protect your family and he needs to move on.

GJM,
I agree and he needs to be made aware of the pain he's causing your children!
CT

GJM & CT, thanks so much. This is what I am looking for. I don't want to keep texting him, just a couple well targeted texts to make him think.

GJM, I think I will use your suggestion. Well put.

CT, how can I word it about the kids?

Tell the truth........"my kids are mortified and you are ripping my family apart". If he has any conscience, which he may not if he's a psychopath like my POSOM, he'll feel really badly.

I feel so horrible for you because your WW is so fogged out. I was suicidal during my foggy time even though I never left my home. It really is the chemicals in the brain. She will come down off her high, like my friend did, and she'll be disgusted with herself.

I hope this helps. I'm certainly no expert!
CT

I wouldn't be surprised if the OM jumps to change his number after that first text.

OMs and OWs are scared of having to face the betrayed in any way and scurry to hide....generally.

You could also tell him that you'll get as many people as you can to stop doing business with him because he's a liar and has no integrity or sense of family values.

No leave OM alone, go after all his friends and family. That is how you kick his [censored].

EXPOSE as wide and far as possible. Even grandma if you have to.

PI is right in that you must expose first then you can go after OM.

I haven't read through your entire post. Who is OM? What does he do for a living? Who is his ex-wife?

Find out as much about him as you can so you can destroy him! You owe your wife nothing even if you did have an A yourself. You made good on that and didn't do it again.

Thanks for all the advice. I'm making a FB list and planning to send out tonight.

I'm also going to email the same FB letter to the doctor (kind of her boss) she works with. He's not on FB, but will email.

I'm going to take the FB route first without texting the OM anymore at this moment.

Also looked on OM FB page and his profile pic is now a picture of him and my wife!!! He changed it on Jan 29.

This guy is scum! How can you post on FB you and a married woman! Guess it depends on what people know. Hence the reason for the FB message.

Is everyone ok with my FB message I'm going to send? I would like some feedback. I did change one part to this:

The purpose of the separation was not to work on our marriage as I was led to believe, but so that she could carry on her affair without my interference.

Please let me know your thoughts everyone. Thanks!

Exactly. You had your say. Going back now you will only sound winey to the OM. If OM was afraid he wouldn't go around doin' married women.

OM knows there is nothing you can do to him where he won't get the better of you. Example:

You go to beat up OM and do so, OM has you arrested, while you spend several nights in jail, while OM spends several nights with WW in your bed, plus OM gets to then sue you for damages as a result of the beat down.

OM beats you up instead, Om gets off with self defense claim, while your in hospital bed for several nights, OM in your bed with your wife.

Now the way you can hit the OM where it hurts is hit him hard. Don't use no jab, cross, or upper cut, repeatedly and throughly expose the OM. There is no way the OM can stop you. No way for you to come out with the short end of the stick.

Oh......I'm so sorry. He is scum. Facebook is evil. What a pig he is. He sure is gutsy. She is still YOUR wife.

The fact that you wife allowed him to post that picture says a lot about her. Have your kids seen it? Sounds like you deserve better!

Nail him any way you can with exposure. Make sure his ex-wife knows as well.

Sounds like he's a psychopath or extreme narcissist. People like that......well, their reputations need to be ruined. Then he'll resent your wife for it.....not you.

Destroy him!!!

Finally hearing some clang. Take a screenshot of that FB page for safe keeping. Paste it into a Word doc.

Vets, what do you think about SW emailing that pic to certain influential members of her family? And show the kids maybe...at least DS17?

TW........great idea! Take OM's narcissim and WW's selfishness and use it against them!

For sure, print out that picture AND right click choose "save as" and save it on a disk or thumb drive for future use. It might help you should you ever need it during divorce proceedings!

Ugh......I can't get over what a pig he is!

You think this is bad go and read PSUBiker's and Pariah's thread. Whew!

But, yeah, this OM is very disgusting as well.

How do you search for someone's thread? Is it possible?

Click the search tab and type the person's user name. Then you can click posts or topics created.

My only question is whether OM can sue me for slander or defamation of character by using his name in the FB letter and accusing him of having an A with my WW.

Nope, it's not slander or defamation. It's the truth. Can't get sued for that.

You're also making the letter endearing and asking to influence the OM to stop the affair.

Can't get sued for telling the truth.

Exactly, can't get sued for telling the truth.

Only one thing that I had a problem with, you aren't going to go into Plan B after you expose. That's not what Plan A is about. THis is the STICK. You don't expose and run in this case.

Do remember that when you expose, and your WW finds out, you are going to get blasted about how evil and cruel you are.

You're doing the right thing.

I would show your children the pic, especially if they don't know what OM looks like.

Scotland, are you saying that the exposure is the stick? I'm confused. So after exposure I stay in Plan A? She's not going to care about me meeting her needs, in Plan A. Though I guess GJM was in Plan A after exposure. I'm confused.

Yes SW, stay in Plan A. If she comes at you in anger, just say you're just trying to save your marriage. After I exposed I was told a lot of hateful things, but I kept coming with niceness and charm. I kept finding reasons to talk to my W.

Yes, I am saying that exposure is part of the stick of Plan A. Have you read the Carrot and Stick of Plan A thread?

Yes, you stay IN Plan A. Of course she isn't going to let you meet her ENs right now, that's not the point of Plan A. You are just showing her your willingness to meet those needs, in the future, should she decide to end her A.

Alright, SW, what are you doing? Been sitting here waiting for an update. Almost thought I heard a clang clang out of you today and came back to lend support.

Talk to me

How is the FACEBOOK exposure going? Is it complete yet?

Remember it is a very excellent sign if your WW is really really angry. Let's see how much damage EXPOSURE can do to her fantasy.

Waiting to hear ...

All the best to you, stillwaiting, I know EXACTLY what you are going through right now (I just did my exposure tonight myself so I am now facing the aftermath of it). Hard as heck but I am still doing my best to stay strong. You can do it, too, don't let any anger (and there WILL be boatloads of it) deter your goal.

Trying to save your marriage just proves that you are much stronger than the one who is to weak to do the same. You should be darn proud of yourself.

Good luck!

I'm starting to love me some Dawn! You have my respect.

I'm working on the list now. I took the day off from work to gather my thoughts and hang with my parents, and got home a short while ago. I will begin shortly. Stand by.

I feel like I can get in legal trouble for doing this. What if friends of OM decide to come back at me for sending them something like this? They can say I'm harassing them by send this message?

I'm serious about this. I don't mind sending to WW friends, and to OM's relatives, but I'm having a hard time with friends of OM that I don't know.

Do they have to be your friend on FB in order to message them? Or can anyone message anybody?

You can message them if they have a "send message" button. You cannot harrass unless you continue to message after being told to stop.

Forgive my questions, but if I'm sending to a person I'm not friends with, and say their name is John Smith, then will this message go to every John Smith on Facebook?

Wait, so how do I do this? Go to that person's FB page and click message from there? Or do I select message from the top of my page, enter their name, and send message?

If it is from their page, then I suppose it would be assured of going to the correct 'John Smith'?

Get it done.

You are. NOT harassing anyone by sending ONE message.

And it is the TRUTH which is a legal defense for any slander or libel claim.

Stop second guessing and excuses. Kill the affair.

You're going off on a tangent about OM and the ring -- but understand that your wife has told him LIES about the status of your marriage. That is yet another reason to expose......

Do I send the message from the actual persons page? Could someone please let me know?

Guys, do I send message to OM also? I know, dumb question, but need to know.

Not stalling, just trying to get my ducks in a row so I can pull this off smoothly.

Hello? Anyone available to answer questions above. Want to get the ball rolling.

Wish I could get MelodyLane's take on this also. Do I send message to OM's friends on Facebook, or just his family?

SW

I am not familiar with FB. Dont use it.

From what I read in the article by ML it says Private message (PM).

I would think that is on the individuals page.

Do you have a friend you could try it on and would let you know if it comes through?

nESRE

SW,
Click the persons name and then message. It will be private

What about other man? Send to him as well? His friends too (not just his family)?

YES

Ok, I finished sending out the Facebook messages.

I have to admit, it was scary and I had doubts throughout. But I persevered. When I got to OM's page to work on those messages, it was even scarier for some reason. But then I saw his profile pic with my wife in it and I just blasted away.

Damn picture pisses me off.

Let's wait and see what happens.

I'm so pissed off at WW right now, and doubly pissed off that POSOM has the audacity to put a picture out there of him and my wife!

Woohoo, good going, sw, you did it!

Like you, I too was terrified to send out the letters but still did it all the same (once I hit "send" for the first time, that was it, I was on a roll and just kept going and going). I have MB to thank for giving me the motivation to do it because, honestly, without their encouragement I highly doubt I even would have went through with it at all.

Be glad that you have now got this part over with but still be prepared for what is to come (and you know it is going to in a very big way). Stand your ground, stay as calm as you possibly can and don't let anyone make YOU feel like the bad guy in any of this (some will certainly try).

I think most of us here have a pretty good idea, lol.

It's going to be tough, sw, but don't let that get you down (I've already got some claiming they're going to go after me for harassment and stuff like that but I frankly don't care because it's all just talk, anyway). Yes, you will surely hear all kinds of c**p (and most likely from several different folks) but it is to be expected so get yourself ready for it.

You did well.

You have manned up. Any job worth doing is worth doing it well.

Don't let WW get you in any arguements. Just say why are you mad I just told the truth. Then follow up with I don't talk divorce if WW goes there.

You send to both family and friends. Anyone and everyone who may influence him, and since their picture is all over facebook I would send to all his Facebook contacts.

Now you need to send that FB pic to her family. This will piss her brother off to no end. Make sure her mother gets it as well (she needs a cold, hard slap into reality). Show the kids the pic too. They are plenty old enough, and they have a right to know. Send it to however many friends that you feel may be influential enough to put some serious pressure on this farce. Oh, and did you save that pic and take a screenshot of the FB page?

Good job SW. You did the right thing.

TW, yes I have a screenshot of it. If anybody threatens me with legal action, I'll just refer them to his page and if he changes profile pic, then I'll just send them the pic.

That profile pic alone is enough to justify me send a message to his friends. He's flaunting the fact that he's together with my married wife!

I'm sorry, but a man has to stand up for his family.

Just got a text from my wife: "You're crazy...u need major psyche help...Leave my friends alone...!!!!

Her mother does not have a computer, no email.

Plus OM & WW are planning to take her out to dinner for her birthday, so I don't know what effect a picture will have if she already sees both together now.

I don't like the feeling of this. I feel sick to my stomach and anxious. I feel like sending those FB messages was wrong. Like I shouldn't have been encroaching on other people. But at the same time I need to let people know what's going on. It's not right that she goes around town acting like OM is her new man, all the while she's still married to me! Then to top it off, he flaunts it himself on Facebook.

The thing that keeps me justified in what I did is that profile pic he has. It's the one thing that sickens me, and I know that it would sicken most everyone that I sent a message to. How could it not. If it was someone else and they sent me a message, I would look at it in disbelief that someone could do that to someone else.

People, please give me some encouragement that what I did was the right thing! I need that right now.

Dawn, thanks for your words of encouragement.

Showed my DS the OM's Facebook page last night. He just shook his head in disbelief and said he didn't know what he could do anymore. He wasn't happy. He said the other night when we were all out for my birthday dinner, that he looked across the table at his mom and was just mad. He said he wanted to jump across the table and just shake some sense into her.

I mentioned earlier in this thread about dinner that night. I made a comment about how I could sense something about my DS and his look towards WW. So I actually sensed that correctly! Makes me feel better about any gut feelings I may have throughout this all.

Exposing the affair was the right thing to do, SA. Please stop doubting yourself. MB vets are giving you great advice, right along with Dr. Harley principles.

You are likely to get some nasty replies back from people who don't want to be involved for whatever reason and get a ton of anger from your WW, but it doesn't change the fact that exposure is the first big weapon to kill the affair. Who likes having everyone know their skanky deeds? And how best to fight back by saying YOU are the bad person.

You are doing the right thing, even if some people will not agree with you. Stay focused.

Relax.

Whatever WW, any FB person you messaged says.....deep breath and ride it out without engaging back in conversation or emails.

If any FB response is kind or supportive respond with "Thank you so much for your input".

If you get venom and attacks on your character. Nothing in response.

Your WW is supposed to attack you back for messing with her fantasy adultery. That is a good thing. Means you shook her fantasy about her life tree. Good thing. No love busting back.

Of course you will feel anxious when being brave and getting lobs of anger and judgments of why you did it by toxic people. That is being a human being.

Bravery is doing something even when it is scary and you have fear. Bravery is needed here.

You are not running for class president. You are the head of your family and taking executive action to protect its security. You are playing hard ball. Period.

SW,
YOU DID THE RIGHT THING!!!!

Stand your ground. Most good people will be disgusted by what she's doing.

Good for you!!!
CT

Direct hit! This is what you want! The madder she is the more damage you have caused. You would have reason for concern if she took it all in casually.

Unbelievable. I can't understand your MIL at all.

You've never been more right in your life.

And that's the whole point of exposure, SW; painting this for what it truly is and not for the love sick fantasy that she's projecting. She's feeling quite uncomfortable about things right now.

Keep plowing! Did you get the pic to her brother? If not, do it now. Keep the pressure flowing and don't let up until you've completely covered everyone.

YOU ARE DOING THE RIGHT THING!!

Oh, and don't go getting into any pissing contests with her either. Ignore her texts, and don't reply to any FB replies you may receive that are in the negative. Just ignore them.

Keep going and let exposure do its job

WW sent me another text: "If u don't stop this sh*t I will get a restraining order"

Perfect! Ignore and keep going. Do NOT engage her! Let her choke on it.

BTW, she has absolutely no grounds for a restraining order. Just another empty threat. You never answered; has the brother seen the pic?

Another text from WW: "Do u realize this will hurt the kids...do u realize stunts like this will get back to the kids....? Ur nuts"

I'm not replying back to her texts. I didn't send the FB messages to anyone but adult family and friends. How can it hurt the kids? They already know she's cheating on their dad with OM.

I'm going to try and stop by one BIL's house and show them the pic. I will get the pic to the other one. He already knows about the FB pic, just hasn't seen it.

She's in panic mode and damage control now. Don't you see it? Ignore her.

You are doing great, but keep it up. Cover every base now!

When I saw the OM's FB profile pic with my wife, I felt that he actually crossed the line over towards my family. I felt like he was a threat to my family, like he was trying to destroy my family.

What I did by exposing was to bring the truth out and protect my family from him. I wanted other people to know that this man is invading the sanctity of the marriage and family that my wife and I have. I felt like I needed to protect my kids from this guy.

That was the effect that profile photo had on me!

Perfectly stated. The clang is profound right now!

stillwaiting, I wanted to add to Dawn's great advice about facebook exposure. Be sure and copy and paste all the contacts into a WORD doc FIRST because once the OM catches onto your gig, he will take down his page.

Please carefully read my exposure thread in my signature.

I'm sure this will upset WW to the point where she will hold this against me forever, and never come back. Even it if damages her A with OM, she probably will never return. I know how she is - stubborn.

But whatever. The life I'm living now, the limbo that she keeps me in, is not a good way to live either. So this exposure is good. Even if she never comes back, she needs to at least own up to what she's doing.

She has never owned up to what she is doing. She's never said in a calm voice, "SW, I'm sorry for the pain I'm putting you through. I didn't mean to hurt you, but this is what I need to do with my life", or something along those lines. She has never said anything to me in a mature manner. Maybe this will make her finally think about what she's doing. Instead of thinking I'm crazy, maybe realize that what I'm doing is trying to save our marriage. Any decent husband would do this. She can't fault me for that. Maybe someday she will realize that, though it will probably be too later for us.

Hard to say.

SW, most betrayed husbands believe this, but in actuality, exposure will not stop a WW who wants to come back. Wild horses will not stop her, especially if she is stubborn. Exposure increases the odds of her coming back because it removes the thing that keeps her away: the affair. So don't worry about exposure keeping her away, it won't. If she doesn't come back it will be because of her choices.

I will tell you this too.....
she is stating the exact comments most other waywards state when exposure happens.

Exposure will not be the straw that made her refuse to ever rebuild with you.

There is a much BIGGER issue than you having exposed her adultery.

The ADULTERY!


Ride this wave of reaction from all with calmness. No matter what anyone threatens you with or insults they aim at your character.

Hang in there pal.

Melody, you know I exposed to her and OM's FB friends last night, right?

I did take a screenshot of his Facebook page with the profile pic with my wife in it. The screenshot includes the date and timestamp in the corner.

Never apologize for standing up for your family, sir. You did well.

Bull's-eye. Okay, buckle up and get ready, still. There may be fireworks if your exposure has worked. The last thing you want is for them to not care.

Waywards hate having the world peering in on their shady activities. Good job!

Who does she think she is? Queen of the United States? She can get an RO to keep you from approaching HER. She can't get an RO against you on behalf of your exposure targets. They would have to make the effort to do that themselves, which ain't gonna be happening. They're not invested enough in this to bother on the basis of one FB message.

More likely, there is a fair amount of snickering going on about those two right now. Their dirty laundry is flapping freely in the breeze. Nothing romantic about that at all.

Keep up the good work!

Uh-huh. And her affair is GOOD for them?? Typical wayward trash-talk. Ignore this.

You know nothing of the kind, Still. You are second-guessing yourself. That's normal, because exposure initially seems disrespectful to your wayward. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is disrespectful to stand by and watch them destroy their life and their family. It is enabling them in their destructive behavior if you DON'T expose.

SW, you did do the right thing, you just have to believe it yourself now.

As for your WW's text messages, be glad she is livid, that is exactly the reaction you want. I too got messages (from FB people and my WH himself) calling me "psychotic, you need a shrink, you're nuts, this is harassment" etc. Shrug it off and remember YOU are NOT even the person everyone is truly angry at, the real target of the anger is the exposure of the affair itself. Lots of folks just need someone to blame and since you are the one who exposed the nastiness it just happens to be you.

Yes, you most certainly did do the right thing so don't go second-guessing yourself for a second.

I applaud you, it takes a REAL man (or woman) to stand up for the safety of their family.

Be glad you fit that description!

Well done, my friend.

WW just tried to call me. Ignored it. I don't feel like talking with her right now.

She left a message. Don't want to listen to it right now.

I'm positive it's saying she wants to get the divorce started, that would be my guess. Well, I don't want to divorce, so she doesn't need me to partake in it. If she wants it, she can do it by herself.

Everyone, thanks so much for your support and words of encouragement.

I got two messages back from FB. Both were in support of me.

I'd say you're right. She's going to want to go off on you and say anything she can think of that could hurt you. This is all very typical, Still.

Exactly right

Did get another message reply back. It was from a friend and it was neutral. She basically said that she has talked to WW maybe 5 times since last summer and she never got the feeling that my wife wanted to 'work' on our marriage, and that we should work together to end the marriage.

I'm not in denial about this, but my wife has to initiate it, and maybe the FB thing will make her do it.

What I don't know is whether my wife is just in the affair fog, or if she really is thinking rationally and wants out, but yet doesn't want to file for some reason.

My BIL thinks she doesn't want to file because why should she? She can do pretty much anything she wants to with this guy, just can't marry him. And if doesn't work out, she can still come back because we're legally married.

So I really don't know what she's thinking. I do know that even if she truly wants to end it, then she has to file. I talked to a lawyer and there's no advantage to me filing first.

I do however think that this FB thing has pushed her over the edge in terms of D. But, I also know that she will flip one way then the other virtually overnight. So I'm going to ignore her for the rest of the weekend and let her just think.

Wife tried calling home phone. Ignored.

Good! So tell me, are you starting to feel a little better about yourself? You should be.

I'm actually feeling pretty bad because I know where this is heading. Talked to my sister and she said WW talked or texted her. WW said I was threatening her.

My sister said something about WW saying she was waiting until the end of this month to file for divorce because then DS will turn 18. Then there will only be DD who is a minor.

WW texted telling me to man up and stop hiding behind texts and the computer. I get so sick of her telling me to man up.

Why can't she man up and do the right thing? If she has to file, then file. Cause I'm sure she isn't coming back.

Wife and MIL both called and talked to DS. Wanted to know if DS was ok and if he wanted to come over. WW was crying.

SW

Thats history and WW thinking that she can waltz back in at any time.

Your changing the game here. Your driving the bus now and in full control.

Good for you taking a stand for your M and family.

nESRE

Uh, that's exactly what you are doing! Don't take anything she says today to heart. Nothing could have less meaning right now than what she is spewing. Remember, she just got the mother of all rude awakenings for waywards and their betrayal. Expect nothing but venom today. This is very much a textbook response. Let it play out.

Ya' done good!

How did your son respond? Your W crying shows guilt and a little remorse.

Have you explained to DS that you have exposed his mother's affair, and why? She and MIL will spin this - make sure your son knows the truth.

Expect stuff like in the movie The Exorcist.

Vile threats and promising.

Do not engage with them.

If she says she is filing for divorce. Do not engage on discussion about it.

If you are afraid from what she tries to converse or say.....do not respond to it.

If she were to file for divorce, lawyer up and let your lawyer do the dirty work of discussing it on your behalf. I doubt she will file but if she does, do not panic.

Think
passive resistance

After exposure it is powerful to implement passive resistance to handle the wayward concerning your exposure and or their talk of divorce.

Keep up the good fight, Still. You are the man!

Adulterers hate being exposed. You should have seen how angry my WXW was. My mistake was I didn't expose enough though. I didn't kill off the affair. You can do it.

Don't listen to this friend either. Of course she's not going to get the feeling your WW would want to work on your marriage when she is fully engaged in an affair.

*edit*

Who were they?

Not even gonna.....

uh, BestPlayer.......it is not that simple.

He did not call his WW out as a hoe and ask for sympathy from people.
He revealed a dreadful secret that his WW and this OM were using to create harm for him and the children.

He isn't a laughing stock for doing what he did. He is brave and loving.

One post and this is their first post. Their already MB expert and telling SW is wrong.

Have a marraige go throught an affair then use MB.

Come back then post. Now you are just as fogged as SW's WW.

Well how about not using external pressure.

Well how about this little hint soon as exposure takes place and it is only one person external pressure is brought to bear to end the affair. This is how exposure is works.

Not enough pressure and nothing will happen.

Please stop posting you are only posting how not do an exposure and your ignorance on the subject.

BP

Just a suggestion

You may want to read the terms of service for this site. Also the Basic concepts at the top of the page in the red banner and have a good footing on the MB's program before posting.

No where did SW call his WW out as a Hoe. Thats not the way MB's works. We do not use our opinions we use MB's concepts to help try and save marriages.

Her behavior may imply that but what SW did in no way expressed that in his exposure.

nESRE

That's the problem...you are using your opinion which isn't shared by the Harley's. The members here are not being guided by what they think might work. They are guided by what has proven to work and is the most effective. Doing nothing and hoping one day his W will return will definitely get him a divorce. Read the MB basic concepts and principles (again if you already have) and decide if this place is for you. You don't have to agree with the information here, but it is the most effective way to save a marriage.

Please refrain from posting until you have read the Basic Concepts of this site and are prepared to post advice based on Marriage Builders concepts.

SW

You still with us?

Just wondering how your doing.

nESRE

Thinking of you SW - So proud of you.

No one hides when a murderer or a thief is on the loose, so why hide when an adulterer is on the loose.

Everyone, I'm still here and doing ok. Thanks for coming to my defense on BP post. I didn't get a chance to see it before it was edited. Just as well, doesn't sound like it was encouraging.

Last text I got from my wife was: "U better come up with some kind of story....u know the kids will ultimately b affected by ur actions."

I don't understand how they can. DS said he already knew what was going on. How can this affect them more? I'm wondering if my W doesn't think I sent the message to ALL of her friends, which would include many of DS and DD's friends. But I did not do that. Only to adult friends and family. And it wasn't to everyone on her list.

WW's aunt replied back nicely and said that I may just have to come to acceptance that the marriage is probably over. She's very sweet and wasn't mean.

Although that is MIL's sister, so I guarantee they were on the phone talking this morning and WW was there saying that the marriage is over.

I guess it's just a matter of timing for when WW will file. It's probably been that way all along. Just don't know why she's waiting so long.

Once again, back to the question is she just a wayward wife in the fog, or is she really a wife wanting out, just going about it the wrong and selfish way? Who knows.

She's definitely wayward and foggy. It could take some time for her to come out of it. Once the affair is over, she will have time to think about everything in her life. That's why Dr Harley recommends 6 months in Plan A and a year and a half of Plan B. If you can Plan A longer than 6 months, then by all means do it. He recommends no more than 2 years for the combined effort though.

Remember what I said about anything she says today being meaningless?

You're projecting again, and it's way too early to be making predictions about what will or will not happen. Another thing is, you don't know what's going on on Fantasy Island right now. Probably a WHOLE LOT of LBing going on that you have no idea about.

I was thinking a little while ago that your hesitancy in exposing might have actually worked in your favor (this time). That FB pic was exposure gold, and an incredibly stupid move on their/his part. I guarantee you some serious words are being batted back and forth over that idiotic decision.

Not trying to pump you full of false hope or anything like that, but let exposure finish it's job. Believe me, even though you're finished on your end, it's still churning out there.

I didn't mention anything about the picture in my initial exposure. People may have seen it or drawn attention to his page with my letter.

I do have a copy of it for safe keeping, but I have not sent it to anybody. BIL's know about it though.

How silly. You don't need to come up with a 'story'. You are telling the truth. DUH on her.

You are doing remarkably well, sw, keep it up.

It sounds like you are actually having a better time with responses to those you exposed to on FB than I am. So far, I only received two responses and neither of them were kind in the least (and these two are also two of the ones bashing me on FB).

Oh well, let them stew, better them be in pathetic moods today then me, lol. Granted, I'm not doing cartwheels of enjoyment right now but I'm still making it through the day appearing just as happy-go-lucky as ever.

Hold tight, sw, you are definitely working in the right direction.

That's alright, you've still got it as irrefutable proof in case it's needed. I may have missed it but didn't you say you told the kids about it?

Still,

You did a great job protecting your family and saving your wife from herself, she doesn't realize it yet but she will when she calms down and has a chance to see her life for what it is, now that the fantasy life has hit real life......
I would not engage in any kind of dialoge about the exposure or the children, just tell the children the truth and tell her that is what you will say to them nothing else, they deserve to know why and what is happening to their lives......
Just keep it simple and tell her you love her and will do whatever you have to do to save your marriage.....
She is crashing and is finally feeling what damage she has done to her own life as well as her family..............let that happen...
She will need a few days to blow off all that steam and then she will come to her senses and realize you are saving her from her stupid self and that you are the one willing to forgive and stand with her and for her in this marriage....
I would rest up as much as you can in the next couple of days you are going to need to be sharp and very patient, she will test you over and over again and call you every name she can think of to try to blame you for what she has chosen to do to the family.......she will see there is no way out now that the world knows who she is and what she is doing.......
I will tell you every Wayward that is exposed does exactly the same thing........
Be still, breathe and be proud of how you stepped up to the plate when you had to, it doesn't always work but you given it the best shot you could have given yourself, everyone even her family and friends know it's not right to chose that kind of selfish choice, it's not right to hurt your family

still, your strength is amazing! well done on the exposure. yes, your ww is foggy. hang in there and work the programme. all this hard work will pay off for you. the support here is fantastic.

The answer is: all three! She is having an affair but really doesn't know what she wants. She has no more clue what wants than a falling down drunk.

She didn't want out of the marriage until her affair began. Understand that. If she did, she would have gotten out, and not had an affair in the first place. That's the usual way for waywards. They tell you that it's been over for x many years, that they have never been happy, that the OP has NOTHING to do with it, but it's all a bunch of hooey. The affair is the ONLY reason that they want out now, and the history re-write is their way of justifying it. It's just sad how nowadays, people will be okay and even encourage people to date even though they are still married to someone else. Just ridiculous.

Stay strong. I received 1 message back from my exposure to OW's family on FB(I didn't copy all of the list and was blocked before I had a chance to expose to everyone, I regret that now). It was from an uncle of OW's. He said, "I know OW, but I do not know you." That was IT. I wish that my exposure had a bigger effect, as yours seems to be. Good job.

I hate to see a new poster getting shut down early just because they haven't taken the time to read up on the concepts here. BestPlayer, I'd like to invite you to start your own thread and tell us about your situation. Welcome to Marriage Builders!

Yes, both kids know of photo. I showed DS and DD came across it, or somehow found out about it.

Hoo boy..give it time. I would love to be a fly on the wall during WW's next conversation with DS and DD. Ima betting it will NOT be pretty.

I sat back and tried to put myself in my W's shoes. If it was me doing the cheating and my friends and family were being notified of what I was doing, I would be petrified. Especially if I didn't know the extent of how many people were notified.

I wouldn't know when I was out in public who was looking at me thinking Lord knows what. I wouldn't know what the people at work were really thinking. I guess it would depend what I was telling people up to that point.

At the same time I would be very embarrassed and even humiliated. Again, it depends on what I've already told people in the past.

I would also have bouts of anger that my wife would do this to me. But I am the type that would be more embarrassed and scared rather than angry.

I don't know if my wife has the capacity to be embarrassed and humiliated. I would think she would be defiant and angry, but I feel she must have some capacity to feel embarrassment.

But I think because of the unknown element of who all was notified, it would definitely change the dynamics of the A. I would think it would take it from a comfortable, effortless level to a different level.

Not sure what that level would be. Comments?

I'm hoping they say something. They're both getting to the point where they're tired of the whole thing. They hate what's going on. I want them to continue to vent to WW about their dislikes, but I don't want to manipulate them.

You're forgetting one "little" thing; Losing her children's respect.

SW, question: Are you an engineer by chance?

Close, I'm in Information Technology. I do database administration. Some Linux server administration. Why?

You have not done anything wrong.

Your WW is trying to think up of ways to scare you from exposing. The thing is she doesn't realise that exposure can't be undone.

WW is trying to use fear to pressure you to shut up. Poor fool she does not realise it is too late to close the barn door.

This is why people here are telling to ignore WW's rantings. WW is saying whatever pops into he mind because there is really nothing she can say to you except to spout off utter nonsense.

WW is desperate because she can't fight the truth.

You are just getting standard WW responses. Though as fast as WW response first came in and the amount that her folow up response are coming in indicates that your exposure has been very successful.

Congradulations.

Great start don't weaken.
Don't let WW engage you in any arguments.
WW brings up divorce talk, just say I don't talk divorce then change the subject.

Isn't this odd. For as much as my wife has done to me, I still feel a little sad about exposing her A to this extent. I need to get past that. Like everyone says: focus.

That is because you are a decent guy and you hate seeing her hurt, no matter how deserved it is.

you did great!

Thanks Melody.

Exactly right, and it's something you should be proud of SW.

As for the question, engineers tend to be overly analytical. It's just their nature, and it seems to be yours as well. Not a bad thing at all, mind you. Just very recognizable.

No, you don't have to get past that. That's your heart and your love for her. That's the piece of you that still gives her a way home. Don't lose that until you have to - the day she leaves for good.

We're telling you to focus so you can bring her home.

Yes.

Focus.

Do not feed the tiger. Do not engage in discussions or trying to educate a wayward who is tantruming and wildly reeling from their secret being revealed.

Focus.

Whatever onslaught comes from whatever direction.

Focus.

I just went through this as well SW. Remember what I said I did and how I reacted. Keep pushing forward. You can do this!

My WH is still embarrassed about EXPOSURE. They feel the embarrassment because they know they did wrong. Remember in adultery the adulterer lowers their value system versus changing their behavior. She now looks at the world from a completely different perspective. She is unable to see the world at the same level you see the world.

Only time can tell if she is able to get back her old value system. She can only get it back by making accepting responsibility for her cruelty and abuse.

TW, I will gladly take that as a compliment!

Everyone tells me I over analyze, too analytical. It has it's good sides and bad sides. WW always pointed out that's the way I was.

I'm always curious about the gray area, rather than the mundane black or white.

SW, this is a very good post by PI. Yep, she's extremely embarrassed by exposure, as she should be. She's been so high school giddy in this little fantasy world that she was completely unprepared for the avalanche of truth that blanketed that fantasy. Well, now it has smacked her square in the face and she is ill prepared to handle it. It just got real! And there ain't no going back.

Well, that's just too damned bad! Actions have consequences.

NOW, she's having to face those consequences without the luster of her fantasy to mask what she's done. She is virtually naked in the eyes of the truth because of YOUR actions. She has no defense, and she's in meltdown and panic mode. She's scrambling to explain, but she can't, and she knows it!

Like PI said, only time will tell if your actions are enough to snap her back to her senses. BUT, also having kids of their ages with the knowledge they have of this, the pressure is definitely building. All is NOT well on Fantasy Island right now. You can bet on that.

Her head is spinning right now.