Hi Friends.

My H blew 18 months of recovery today.

Our beautiful DD21, who is an acting student, sent us her "senior year" headshots. And they are heart-stopping gorgeous.

And he wanted me to send a link to them on his work account, which I have full access to. So I did.

And today he sent them in a txt-less email to OW.

Which I caught within hours.

He lied when initially confronted. Then says "I was so proud of my beautiful daughter" and "office worker said I should send them to OW" and "I have no excuse."

I confronted him via telephone this evening. He got home from work and we talked for a bit, without any resolution. We had dinner, then he fell asleep for 1.5 hours, until time to take DS14 to bed. I woke him up.

We talked for a while without any satisfaction or resolution. I think (and he says) he is getting a bug, thus the sleep after dinner.

I have told him I am scheduling a poly for him, and that he needs to come here to post on his own. He is not objecting to the poly.

Not sure what else to do.

Arggh. This stinks.

If he posts here, please work on him. If he doesn't there is nowhere for me to go except I go alone.

So sorry to hear this!!!!

Chrys,

I am so sorry you are dealing with this. I hope he does come here so he can really see what he is doing. I hope when he does he will come in ready to hear stuff he isn't going to want to hear. Time for him to pick up the ball and carry the weight of it.

Have you looked into a poly already? What is the timeframe in getting one set up?

Big hugs to you.

LC

Gosh, sorry to hear this. I'm wondering why an office worker would tell him to send the pictures to the OW. Doesn't really ring true.

I DO think he was proud of DD, but what in heck was the guy thinking?

I agree with Believer. That doesn't make a lot of sense. He's lying about that too.

So sorry to hear this.

Chrys,

Sounds to me like he certainly doesn't yet "get it" as far as NC goes and how important it really is. It is a requirement not only to keep the A from rekindling but to stop the pain of the BS.

Why would co-worker ask him to send the pix to OW? When he says this, it could be a lie. But does Co-worker know about the affair? Does CW know OW but not understand what happened?

What I'm driving at is that I can see two reasons to resume contact. 1) He wants to re-ignite the affair or 2) He really wasn't thinking and when CW said "send it to OW" not realizing that OW and WH had a history beyond work and WH just doesn't understand that this isn't simply a matter of him controlling himself with OM but having NO contact of any kind with her.

If #1, why a text-less email including pix of DD that he is clearly so proud of.

If #2 why would he even bother? The answer is that he doesn't "get it" yet and was really not giving you any consideration when he did it. Which is a different problem.


As long as it wasn't contact to rekindle the affair, which a polygraph might prove one way or the other, it could be a great opportunity for him to see what NC really has to mean. Maybe it can be used so to teach him so he does "get it."

Don't shoot him yet, but if it turns out to be #1, I'll lend you a gun.

Praying for you...

Mark

The text-less part of the email sets off my red flags. That makes me wonder if he is not communicating in some other way. It is ODD that he would just send a link to pictures with no explantion whatever. So, it sounds to me like a polygraph would be very much in order.

I think it was probably #2. Office worker is a friend of OW. But the poly will tell the story, won't it?

Sorry Chrys,

Why would a co-worker say that? Sorry, but I don't believe that. And let's just say for one moment that co-worker did say it, has H had OW's email address all this time so that he could send the pics to her?

ML, the pictures were identified with her name. And they came from his work email. I suspect that office worker told OW about them and passed a message that she wanted to see them. They really were stunning, and once he showed them to his current staff he had people all over his building coming to ask to see them.

The only clue he has given me is that he was extremely proud of her and wanted to show the pictures off. Looking for outside admiration.

Stupid, stupid, stupid. The poly is non-negotiable.

Yes, he has had her email address all this time. She never changed it. That is not really surprising to me.

Why is H talking to OW's toxic friend? This would be a boundary for me. No interaction with toxic people.

Chrys, what is doing to stop the office worker from passing on messages from the old ho? Does she not know about the affair? He clearly needs to put a stop to that.

Does he WORK WITH THE OW??

OW's friend is not someone I know to be toxic. She is the last vestige of his old staff. She's a receptionist.

He does not work with the OW so far as I know but I am going to add that to my growing list of issues to be explored on the polygraph.

Chryslis, does she work at the same company?

Chrys, then how could she befriend a skank who pursues married men? Just the fact that she is encouraging contact between the affairees makes her toxic. She is the enemy of your marriage.

Coworker is toxic IF she knows of A and told your H that. Does the coworker know of the A?

She left the company while the A was still ongoing. So far as I know she works at a hospital in a neighboring town. This is not the hospital H usually goes to.

I verified this 18 months ago but will obviously have to find out what the current situation is.

I do not think coworker "knows" of the affair.

Chrys, I would definitely verify where she works. Perhaps you could call that hospital and ask for her?

The real problem is that your H sent the OW an email and is using the coworker as an excuse. If the coworker knew of his affair, she might not want to her up to your H.

I'll find a way to verify. Man, I'm tired.

I'd add that to the list of polygraph questions. If coworker is in the dark, fine. However, if she is in the know I think H would have to restrict his interaction with her to strictly work.

Whatever the case, the problem is with H. When you say there was no resolution last night does he have nothing else to add and giving you the generic, there's no excuse?

He says it was a stupid thing to do, and does not offer any excuse.

Man alive, Chrys, his actions are very worrisome. To be this far into "recovery" and to be so careless is a huge red flag to me. Have you been skating on thin ice all this time? What are your instincts telling you?

In a word

expose

in no particular order

- WH's parents
- your adult daughter (tell DD that her head shots were shared with her father's former (?) adultery partner)
- the office receptionist - do this one in person (watch her face when you tell her ... it will tell you if the adultery is news or not news)
- your religious leader if you have one

To in-laws -

WH and I are rebuilding our marriage after his adultery. He recently sent DD's head shots to OW. Do you have any advice for me?

To DD21-

Dad recently sent your head shots to the woman he committed adultery with. How do you feel about this?

To receptionist - (face to face)

WH had an adulterous affair with OW. There has been recent contact between them. Are you aware of any of this?

To religious leader-

WH and I need spiritual guidance dealing with his adultery and his recent contact with OW.

If OW has a husband or a boyfriend contact him immediately -

OW and WH had an adulterous affair. I thought they were no longer in contact with each other. I discovered recent contact. What do you know on your side of things?

Immediate consequences >>> exposure <<< will be an embarrassment for WH - which is a very GOOD thing & makes future "mistakes" less likely.

Substitute CRUEL and THOUGHTLESS

If I remember correctly Chrysalis counseled with SH and was advised by him not to expose. Not sure why, but I remember her and I discussing it quite a while ago.

LC

Crys has to determine how many times this sort of contact is OK with her -

is one time OK?
two times?
three times?
a dozen times?

Once she has determined her limit - then exposure is the one best way to stop this sort of slippage.

I agree.

I am a firm believer that waywards who do not face any consequences are far more likely to keep repeating bad behavior and think nothing of it.

I do think, at minimum, exposure to family and friends is a must at this point. I wonder if SH's thoughts on the matter would be different now than they were before.

LC

Sometimes - exposure is not recommended IF it appears the affair has already ended and it is unlikely it will restart.

Usually a misstep, in my opinion.

Steve advises DELAYED exposure sometimes initially, only so that he has an opportunity to speak to the WS first. She is way beyond that point. If the contact is not ended at that point, he does advise exposure.

Agree very much with Pep. This WS is in a major fog and this is likely to continue unless she takes drastic steps. I am shocked she has been living on thin ice all this time. My nerves could not have handled it. This is a death of a thousand cuts.


Chrys's husband's SECRET makes it very possible for him to continue contacting the OW from work with his coworkers encouragement.

My instincts are telling me that this may have been an isolated act of gross stupidity, but that I need a polygraph. I'll make further decisions after that.

I went back to bed to make up for last night's lost sleep. That helped.

Thin ice all this time? No. H has made remarkable changes. We have been doing extremely well. I look back and cannot believe I endured what I did, and I won't do that again.

As for exposure, polygraph first. H has no living relatives. We have no current spiritual leader. There will be no plan B. It is time for him to demonstrate his commitment to character, or not.

Chrysalis

I am sorry you are going thru with this. I hope the poly will answer your questions about WH. To be proud of your DD is great but to do a stupid act like he did is yet another thing.

Let us know how it goes.

I hope WH has seen the stupidity the steps back he has done to the recovery process.

Chrys,



Sounds like the right idea.

Good luck. Keep us posted.

LC

I got my treadmill time in today. Good on me.

Anybody know of a good polygrapher in the LA area?

My view would be that hubby needs to do all of the work to fix this.

In fact, I would ask him to move out while I think about my options. Seems to me that he was proud of his DD, but is not getting protecting you.

I would be done until he could prove that he will do what it takes to win you back.

Chrys,

So sorry this is happening again after so long. Just seems strange that after 18 months of NC he would send pics with no explanation? Hopefully she is done with him and does not respond.

Chrysalis,

Do you know that he is posting here now?

Yes. I required this of him.

Crysalis,

I am so sorry about this

Its great Chewie is posting, I don't if it will work in the same way, but posting even infrequently, helps Flick alot.

OT, T2L is thinking of having a BBQ at her place in march when we are over, hope we can catch up with you and chewie again, as well as DS14 (got it right i hope )

Lil, thanks, Would love to see you & Flick any way we can when you are here!

Cool, will email you info a bit closer.

How are you? Is Chewie doing what he needs to do? Can you give him a slap from us? Flick said to say sorry and too. Give DS14 a from us both, we still think he is just the bees knees

I'm so sorry that you're going through this. I hope he gets a rectal craniotomy soon.

Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to write to Chewie on his thread. He has read this morning's replies and has had to go take hospital rounds for the day (verified.) He looked pretty awful when he left.

I'm going to be fine no matter what.

Thanks to Lil & Flick for the shout out to the family! Hugs to you both.

Chrys, I didn't want to say this on his thread because I didn't want to pile on, but he mentioned that there were many angry posts. The posts are angry because decent people get angry at injustice. I am ANGRY that he was so thoughtless and cruel to you. I do not deny that. I AM ANGRY.

Thanks, ML. One reason I wanted him to post was to force him to some kind of accountability. I told him that last night, and don't care if he reads that here.

Whether or not it will be enough to make him really get it, we shall see.

I think it's helpful for him to see how others react to his cruel actions. I would point out to him that many on that thread are FORMER WAYWARDS themselves so he doesn't try to dismiss betrayed spouses as "biased."

Chrys:

I will be posting to Chewie. I encourage you not to buy into his current rationalizations. Given his profession, he does have the capacity to THINK carefully before ACTING. He should use the SAME CARE for YOU and the MARRIAGE as he does to his patients. He of all people has NO EXCUSES for his ACTIONS. I was NOT ANGRY when I posted to him so he was making a PRESUMPTION to fit his need to discontinue hearing us.

Either we will get to a bedrock of truth on which our marriage can continue, or we won't. I'm pretty checked out emotionally from the outcome.

WOW!! How'd you accomplish this feat? That's a whole lot of miles on the treadmill!!

I dunno. I am calmly contemplating the fact that I may need to decide to end the marriage, and can't afford to have a lot of feelings for him right now. That may not be healthy in the long run.

It really isn't about me and what I feel, it is about him and what he does.

I think trying to maintain EMOTIONAL CONTROL right now is WONDERFUL for you and ABSOLUTELY HEALTHY!! He will try to appeal to your emotions which will result in weakness. It is important for you to maintain your PERSONAL POWER and his RESPECT!!

EXACTLY!!

T/J

Mimi,

Will you pop on this thread---> HERE

I think you can help this BW.

Chrys - I hope you insist on a polygraph.

bk,

I have told him that a polygraph is a deal-breaker.

A little while ago he talked to me about tst's suggestions (before knowing anything about tst's story.) He agreed to most of them (even though I haven't asked!) The only thing he balked at was that if I want a post-nuptial he wants an attorney that represents both of us. (Any attorney dealing with a post-nuptial would advise him to get his own counsel, so I could care less about that detail.)

And frankly, I am thinking over which, if any, of those things I want. What I want is for him to get it. I'm not sure that another round of counseling with Steve or Jennifer or the MB weekend would make any difference, but I'm sure open to hearing about that.

His request to tst for more specifics was at my suggestion after we talked about some potential ones. I think it would be good for him to work on that.

When he was an active wayward he would openly scoff when I would mention the word "boundaries." He HATES the concept. He is not reacting that way any more. I think it would be really good for him to work with people to flesh out in detail what he will do for EPs.

This seems passive-aggressive..to me..

THIS IS NOT HARD...

I don't see why he needs so much HELP on the DETAILS...

He MAY need HELP on buying into the NEED for this...

Seems to me that he continues to HATE boundaries and is not being HONEST with you about that...

I'm glad to hear the poly is a must. I still find it VERY hard to believe that a person can have a LTEA with a person that works with him. It would be one thing if the APs lived across the ocean from one another but to work in the building and be in close proximity... Sorry Chyrs, I just don't buy it but I'd be more than happy to eat my words later if necessary.

{{{chrys}}} Sorry if my words hurt. Prayers to you.

I'm glad he's agreed to the polygraph.

I, too, find it impossible to believe a LT EA didn't turn into a PA when he had ready physical access to OW. Make sure your poly questions do not leave any room for clintonesque answers.

I've told him in no uncertain terms that I don't believe that story, either. I suspect it's a lot closer to "everything but" than the "hardly anything" he portrays.

Mimi, what seems passive-aggressive? My request that he work with other people to get those details right?

Doctors are accountable to ::nobody:: I do not want my own emotions to cause me to let him off the hook on something that he ought to be doing. He is missing the concept and I am tired of trying to teach him anything. He isn't going to learn it from me, he is going to have to work with somebody else to expose his blind spots.

Crysalis,

do you want me to ask Flick to post his EP's to Chewie? I know Tst is great at EP's and has some as well. I am just wondering if seeing other WH's EP's might help with ideas for Chewies personal ones.

Lil, that would be great! Flick should reference that we met in NZ.....Chewie still doesn't know who's who here.....

No, I'm saying CHEWIE is being passive-aggressive. Not, YOU.
Does he understand the NEED for the EPs is what I'm saying. Maybe I'm missing something. How can the SPECIFICS be that HARD?

I guess you don't know my story but my H and I have been recovered since 2003. Once my H BOUGHT and GOT the NEED for EPs and WANTED to DO IT...it was EASY for HIM...He took this on HIMSELF..still does...has all kinds of driving routes around town..certain places that he shops, certain post offices that he frequents...ALL ON HIS OWN..without my assistance in working out any DETAILS..my opinion on this has been based on my own experience...NEVER answers UNKNOWN CALLS..I check ALL of his EMAILS...and on and on...he's made this a part of his life...INGRAINED since RECOVERY because he HATED his AFFAIR so much..what it did to HIM..what it did to ME..what it did to US...

So it's NOT the specifics that he needs..he needs to buy into the FACT that HE IS ADDICTED TO THE OTHER WOMAN..and has to DESPERATELY and WHOLEHEARTEDLY avoid any contact with the drug...

He has to ACKNOWLEDGE HIS ADDICTION...

I read Flick's list and understand NOW...

I GUESS such a list is recommended by the Harleys...

Sorry if I misunderstood...

I guess it would be unattractive TO ME..I think..would bother ME..if my H seemed to need to do something that DETAILED...like he was STUPID or something....MY ISSUE...I guess...

My H does all that stuff..without a list...

RESPECT is such an issue for MY HUSBAND..not wanting me to treat him like he is STUPID..that's ingrained in ME..NOW...

Mimi, could you post that you get it now to Chewie? He needs to see people reflecting and thinking on what others have posted.

Lil, pls thank Flick for me.

Crysalis, have past message on.

Mimi, Flick is not unintelligent. The man runs circles around me. However he is not good at expressing or verbalising his inner thoughts to me.

The EP's are not just a written confirmation of what he is willing to do to make me feel safe, they are also a tangable thing I can hold onto on the days when I don't feel strong. I am in early recovery, and that reassurange is precious to me. Respect is a big thing for Flick as well, but he understands that right now, its what I need. We can sort out the other stuff later. Besides, it is the only area in which I am not as admiring or easy as I am in all other things.

Chewie is still reading. There has not been a lot of time for him to reply.

This morning he sent a written request to eliminate his private office line and a request to his IT dept. to figure out how to block email addresses. He is not opening up email except at home with me present. I have a way to verify that. He has agreed to be home by 7 pm.

It appears as if OW may have rejected his email unopened. It suddenly disappeared from his "Sent" folder in Outlook at a time when he did not have email access. It has not been "double deleted." If anyone is techie enough to understand how that may have happened, could you share it with me?

I yelled at him well into the night. This has been such a huge setback. We had been doing so well. We were happy together. Now I am unsafe again. When I start to feel anything it quickly turns to rage.

I keep telling him he has to figure out how to fix himself. Probably not the best thing to say.

One of the issues I have is that he used to be a man of strong religious faith. He has rejected that. I want it back in his life. I am not sure how to put that into my list of expected EPs. He needs to get past his intelligence (I understand how and why this is a barrier to him) and drink the Koolaid, both on MB and with respect to matters of faith.

That last sentence was probably contradictory!

Could he have given OW access to his email account for some reason before this all came down? Is it possible she hacked into his account? Could he have left his email open once when he was with her and she snooped then?

As far as I know the only time something would disappear in "Outlook" is when items are archived automatically after a certain amount of time.

This is an email system with multiple layers of security and frequently changing multiple passwords. Very, very hard to hack.

He might have a rule set up to automatically move some sent mail to a folder..............

Understandable.

He was beginning to restore a layer of trust with you. This thoughtless act has stripped that layer away and has left you with no clear guidance as to how or if it can be restored.


Again, understandable.

What he's delivered thus far in your recovery is no longer going to be acceptable. It's no longer enough, nor should it be. The list I posted to him might be a good start though, but it needs to be HIS actions that lead from here.


I'm guessing he was active in his faith before his A's??? But hasn't been since???

This is as simple as asking him to go to church with you again.

It was a requirement of SMB's before she would even consider reconciliation with me again. This is a change of heart issue, and a very important one at that.

Nope. I can pretty much verify everything that is or isn't there.

Yes, he was active in his faith before his As, and hasn't been since.

A couple of months ago I did indeed ask him to do that, and before we went away we had been visiting some churches. That got derailed when he had to do some hospital work the weekend before we left, then we were away, and he had to work this weekend again. Yes, all verified. They take turns and it was definitely his turn and he calls me from a hospital number to prove his whereabouts and he gets calls from the answering service when he is at home on those days.

I am thinking about telling him something like "You need to fix what went wrong spiritually." But I have to figure out how to word it.

"GET ON THOSE KNEES AND PRAY BUDDY"....

"GET YOUR BUM RIGHT WITH GOD".....

"STOP STANDING TOO CLOSE TO ME, I DON'T WANT TO GET HIT BY THE LIGHTING".....

I'm just kidding Chrys,,,,,,,(I am a big advocate for humor, even if it is sometimes misplaced.... )

I am watching this very carefully, as I am experiencing sorta the same thing at the moment....

I have to agree with Mimi, you are handling this WONDERFULLY.....better than I am at the moment...(I had no problem going into "rage" mode...but then controlling LB'S has been an issue with me during this whole stuff....)

Anyway, you are receiving wonderful support and advice.....Keep your chin up and chest out......you DESERVE better.....

not2fun

Chrysalis,

Sounds to me like you miss very much spiritual intimacy with your H. Of the twelve intimacies we share with our partners, that one to me is the most intimate, takes the greatest courage and results in the deepest intimacy.

I would grieve it terribly if we'd had it and then it was gone. True loss.

And like love, not unrecoverable.

I think you want to share these thoughts, mourning this loss, with your FWH. Your half is still yours...act from it. You cannot lose your choice to share.

LA

LOL, thanks, not2. I read your thread and am so sorry for your recent stuff.

There really isn't a way to word that that isn't a DJ.... tst may be right that it is handled by asking him to take concrete actions.

Is there a rule that deletes items from the sent items folder every 5 or 7 days?

LA, hi, thanks for visiting me on my thread! (Said in my best Eeyore voice.)

I hadn't thought about what it is I am missing. I certainly grieve the damage he's done to his character.

Going to have to mull that one a bit.

No. No rules, no alerts. No hidden folders. Nothing in the "Recover Deleted Items" folder. I am way more tech savvy than he is. It isn't there, and he was not near email when it disappeared, and there would be no reason for him to do that anyway. Just POOF!

Someone got in there and deleted it. There is no other explanation.

i'm with bigk. Even if she would not have opened it, it would not delete it from his sent items folder. The only way to remove it from the sent items folder is by having a rule or manually deleting it. However, that does not mean she did not read it. how about a recall? if the message was recalled, it might disappear from the folder.

There was no rule in place. He was not in physical possession of the only security codes at the time it disappeared. There is a workaround but I don't think he used it and why would he anyway? I already saw the email. The blowup had already occurred.

It doesn't matter, it will be a subject for the polygraph anyway.

Chewie asked me last night what extraordinary precautions I wanted.

The trouble is, most of the suggested ones were already in place and being followed when this happened.

I have the email, the cell phones, etc.

He no longer leaves the house for "errands" without me or our son.

He was home at 7 last night as promised. His increasingly late work hours had been a source of angst to me for a few weeks.

There are a few things I will want checked out with a polygraph and if he is lying to me about those I see no hope.

The problem with Chewie is that he is beyond accountability. That's why he reacted so badly to the whole concept of boundaries. It's why he's over on his thread not really listening to anyone and trying to be intelligent instead of asking for help.

So what I am looking for is the kind of EPs that get at this root flaw.

I am thinking about requiring him to call up his very first spiritual advisor, old friend, a dentist in another state, whom we recently heard from. And confessing to him and asking him for an ongoing accountability relationship.

Stuff like that.

Suggestions welcome.

Chrys

In YOUR opinion, how is Chewie's overall attitude and outlook at this point?

tst, did we cross-post? Did you see my post to you just above?

Chewie's looking pretty rough around the edges. He's not digging in his heels with me. He says he knows he did a terrible thing and that the payoff for him was probably the moment of anticipation, the "fix." That may be true insight or he may just be parroting what he thinks he should be saying.

I forgot to mention that I have asked him to read and post on his thread at least once a day. Yesterday he came home from work and immediately opened up his thread, without being asked. I'm certainly not going to police that.

Yes we cross posted.


This is VERY obvious on his thread.


You're looking for a change of heart, and I am sorry to tell you this, but EP's alone will not offer this change.

There may be a payoff as he described.....but that is not what his INTENTION was. KWIM?

His "intention" was one of two things. Either to re-establish contact with OW, or to blow his M apart.

It's like a drunk ordering a drink at the bar. His INTENTION was NOT to see how "ordering" the drink would FEEL. The drunks intention was to take the drink. Make sense?

Chrys,

Sorry to say that I get the same sense from Chewie that TST is getting.

He KNOWS what is right and KNOWS what is wrong and yet chose to do what was wrong. I can't really say that he doesn't "get it" because he does "get it." He just chose to do what would hurt you and chose not to protect you.

He made his choice because he thought he'd get away with it. It means that it is still your job to keep him on track. Unless he picks up the baton himself, it will never get to be you first.

{{{{Chrys}}}}

Mark

It's all damage control to him.

Cysalis,

Is Chewie being 'different' this d-day compaired to the others? More/less/same concern, responses, reactions? Just wondering.

Also I just wanted to say that while he isnt posting often, Flick never has either. I know Chewie and Flick are 2 different men, and we have 2 different sitchs. I just dont think posting alot counts for much. Lol, Hu posted heaps and the last I heard, it was till up for debate as to whether he had told his W or not

It's not how much he posts; it's WHAT he posts that counts and WHAT he posts amounts to damage control. No more than that.

I dunno BK. He says remorseful stuff. I cant make an assesment on his actual heart/mindset, so I can only work on that. I don't think people should slacken off tho.

I am more interested in Crysalis opinion on his resposes at home, where he is a bit more real. I noticed that, with Flick alot at first, his posts and what I was told about them where often different from tha talks we were having at home. At home I saw more feeling, but the posts were more factual

Before, there was a period of time when he really seemed to get the horror of what he had done. It took a good while for that to appear, but he made a number of expressions of remorse during that time.

Now he is expressing a lot of care and I am having a hard time responding to it. But God help him if he doesn't do it anyway!

It may well be damage control but we are going to get down to bedrock.

I understand the difficulty in responding to him

So there is some difference compared to the other 3 times? Good, I was hoping to hear that. I won't make a judgement call on it tho.

I never like to judge a person's motivations for posting here.

I remember when Flick first posted and got attacked and edited when he cursed people out. Now he is posting to other waywards, and having MB people in his home, and coming to the states and visiting other MBers. As I recall, he used to think we were all drinking too much of the koolaid.

Tst - I remember reading your wife's posts and thinking it was a lost cause. Now look at you.

There are many others - Mrs. W, who arrived here completely fogged out, and now is a beacon of light to many others.

Can't name all of the former waywards, but there have been many.

My ex knew about MB, even read here, but never posted. He just didn't give a d*mn.

I really thought he had gotten it. He was acting like a changed man.

What I need is the truth about the extent of contact with her. When I have that, and find out whether there are more lies and what they are, I will have the information I need.

I think what is different now is me. I don't want to be with a cheater, even if it's him. The consequences that flow from that may be what it takes to make him willing to change his heart. Or not.

Definatly.

I am very interested in the results of the polygraph.

Chrys;
I have never posted to you and certainly do not have much experience on this, but the below statement from you caught my attention. BTW I'm a FWW.


I can not understand this one. I know during my A, I couldn't even pass infront of my church much less go inside. I've always felt that I was mocking God and everything that the church represented (which I was). But once the A stopped, the FIRST thing I did was reconcile with God and ask for his forgiveness.
BUT (big but)I didn't have a "change of heart" nor did I had "godly remorse" until I completely surrendered to God.


Agreed 100%


IMHO he can't do this by himself, he has to completely surrender to God.
I'm sorry if I'm invading your thread.

Angie.

Yep!

My H is a WONDERFUL, EVER-CHANGED FORMER WAYWARD and he has NEVER posted here and never will...

This forum may not fit for everybody and a means of working it out..

Angie, everyone is welcome to post to me and I really appreciate your doing so!

Mimi,
I mostly agree with you but Chewie has got to get outside of his comfort zone.

I UNDERSTAND!!

My H did counsel a few times with Steve Harley which WAS key for US!! I don't know to this day EXACTLY what he said to Steve or Steve to him.

It certainly has helped my WH to get out of that zone, get busted for his BS and be humbled by those here who knew him better than he was allowing himself to know himself.

It opened up a place for me to get in and get rid of all the nasty junk that was inside of him. It was awful but it was the beginning. I hope it works for you and Chewie.

I wish you a peaceful evening and sweet dreams. You deserve them.

sss, thanks. I think you are in a tougher spot than I am.

Mimi, we counseled with Steve, too. Chewie did "just enough".....And it was very hard to deal with the super early sessions, the only time we could fit it in, with our DS14 needing major parental involvement to get ready for school in the mornings. One of us would take a turn with the phone while the other handled the parenting... and if DS 14 was having a bad morning it was sometimes very noisy.

For example, GM wrote on his thread that he has to do a detailed NC plan for his homework this week. Chewie's "detailed" plan was obviously-- to me-- not detailed enough. "I just won't do that" was stated in about 6 different ways, end of discussion. Yet here we are, nearly 2 years after that "plan" and contact was attempted. He really needs the probing questions he is getting on his thread but seems unable to hear.

"just enough"

Kinda sums it up - that is what comes through in his posts to me - damage control.

For those putting so much time into trying to help Chewie (and me) it might help to know that the character from that genre he really identifies with is Spock.

Well, sure. I am getting a lot of "i really DO love you" kind of statements, which I am listening to and receiving but not able to return in kind at the moment.

Last night he asked me to look at the most recent posts. I asked him later what feelings he was looking for from her... and got the answer "newness and excitement." Give me a break. If he's always going to be on a search for something new I can't stay with him, and I told him that. He has yet to figure out or really believe that those new and exciting doors are closed to him forever. (I told him that too.)

But she wasn't even new and exciting! They had a freakin' three year relationship that supposedly ended 18 months ago!

Change at bedrock. That's what I'm looking for. No excuses, no limits, no other issues in life more important. He's either faithful to me, or needs to get the hell out of Dodge.

Argghh.

Spock looking for "newness and excitement"?

Exactly.

I just sent Chewie off to work mad. So this post will be about what I said to Chewie.

Last night we were lying in bed together and I told him I really was not at all sure if I am going to be able to stay. And that I needed to see change at his core. And that if there is no polygraph, I surely cannot stay.

He said he would do a polygraph, "even though he is skeptical about them."

I told him that it would mean the world to me if he would trust me enough to do that.(Because he has to trust me to be able to handle whatever comes up!) He said again that he would do it.

This morning, he was not physically affectionate and did not look at me until I confronted him about that. I told him that even if I am unable to respond, he needs to keep trying. He said one of the things he is thinking is that he needs to be thinking about what to do for child care for DS14.

We talked some more. I "shared" with him my thoughts that there had to be something seriously wrong for him to have gone down that path again, and that it couldn't be fixed with a bandaid. It needs to be fixed at his core. That my opinion was that he needed to address a spiritual problem.


I asked him to consider calling that old friend and telling him what had happened, what is going on with him, and ask the friend for help. And if he didn't respect that person, to find another. I made it clear that it was not a demand but a request for consideration.

He turned that around and said it sounded like I was demanding another religious conversion. I told him our old friend could probably handle it if Chewie was honest and told him he had no interest in religious faith.

He said he would think about it. And that what went wrong (in our marriage, not spiritually) was that he let his head and his body go down a path he knew to be wrong and destructive.

I know that even if he is able to change in the fundamental ways that he needs to, he is going to go down fighting and it won't be clean and easy for me. But even when I am unable to return his expressions of love I need to receive them. When he holds them back it feels devastating and this all hits me hard, all over again.

I am beginning to believe that this is all part of the WS script, and that Chewie has been following the script pretty closely over on his thread.

I asked him last night if he has read my thread. He has not (and probably doesn't have time to do so.) He asked if I wanted him to, and I told him that while it wasn't written to him he was welcome to read it. I don't know if he will or not.

I saw that some of you asked him about the MB weekend over on his thread. I would like to get through the poly before that decision is made.

This is killing me this morning. We were doing so well.

I just wrote something to Chewie. I doubt it was helpful but he seems to have some of the same problems that GM has. He does not have a clue what to do or how to begin making you feel the way you need to feel. No matter how much you tell them it just does not help. If I am wrong about that I am sorry. I did suggest that maybe he and GM should talk. GM has just begun to do rather than tell or suggest or just think about. It has been hard for him to learn this. Just a thought. I wish you a better day.

Do you want him to read it?

I don't know. I did not write it to him or for his benefit. There are things here that would probably offend him.

But what is good for the goose is good for the gander, and if he wants to read it, he certainly may.

Chrys,


IMO and from a BTDT POV it might be a good idea for him to read your words. One of the most difficult things I have ever done and a HUGE eye opener for me was to read a post my DH posted on a board for BS a few days after d-day.

I knew I hurt him, but honestly did not know to what extent until I read what he had to say in his own words. I had been corresponding with BS's for over a year, knew it was painful, but did not truly know how much until I read his words.

Your words may offend him, but IMO it is important for him to know everything you said here.

LC

LC, If that is the case then he would have to read my old threads to really get it. I'm feeling more numb than I did then. I can't even read them any more. It's just too awful.

I'm having a little trouble finding a polygraph artist.

It is easier for an old lady to get a brightly colored tattoo than find somebody who isn't slimy who will actually do this!

I've only gotten through to one person on the phone and he doesn't want to do it. He thinks it won't solve any problems. That may be just his personal bias about this subject, but he didn't like Chewie's multiple strikes.

So I've got inquiries in to a few more people.

Too bad, I hope you find someone soon.

How the heck does a person go about fiding someone in the first place?

LC

Have you looked into any of these? Google Search filtered for LA area

Mark, calls into the ones of those that are within an hour and I was not otherwise warned about. I called another one today who is a cop who took my call on duty and didn;t have much in the way of answers to my questions. Have emails in to one more plus a consultant.

It is easier for an old lady to get a brightly colored tattoo than find somebody who isn't slimy who will actually do this!

Maybe it is easier to find a new husband than a good polygrapher.

Chewie got home from work tonight with three admissions waiting for him at the hospital. He napped for a little while before dinner, then went to the hospital at the time we had agreed on. He has not done any MB reading here today so far as I know. He can have a pass for today.

If he has no more patients to admit, he might be home by midnight. He is responsible for all admissions until the morning at one hospital, plus all phone calls for a certain geographic area. The ER docs initially see and decide to admit the patient, but then he has to go assume the patient's care for the group. It takes about an hour for each one, though I've never figured out what it is that they do during that time. (And the amount of time has been consistent for years, regardless of hospital or time of day or night, so I think it is for real.)

He's looking pretty awful again but then again I am the one who got to spend 5 hours with my head under the covers today.

Chrys,

I know how frustrated you can be over the lifestyle of a doctor. Maybe this is his HUGE wake up call that it's time for him to change jobs. There are other jobs in his field that don't require all that extra time.

The hosptital Docp works for has hospitalist who cover all admissions and support call.

What I'm saying is he should start looking elsewhere and find a job that allows him more time at home. I know for a fact they exist. The best thing Docp did for our marriage after my A was find another job that allowed him to spend more time with us. The bonus was he was lucky enough to find a job with less of a commute, less hours and paid better.

Start looking in the back of his medical magazines. There are always a ton of jobs listed.

LC

Chrys,

I wanted to add, I completely understand it is a HUGE process for a doctor to change jobs. Docp had to give a 90 day notice and he also had a no competition clause in his contract.

I know it will take time, there is no harm in sending his CV and hearing what others have to say. Just because he talks to them doesn't mean he has to accept a job.

Docp looked into several jobs before he found the one he has now.

From start to finish it took 6 months to find the right mix. I would recommend you at least look and see what is out there.

LC

LC, Changing jobs/moving is definitely on my list of things to consider. I'm not yet to a place where I know whether I want that. Or whether I know if things can be fixed or should be fixed.

((((Chrys)))))

SOOOOO, what are you going to do TODAY, for Chrys?????....can't have a repeat of yesterday now can we????.....(yes, my inner Mimi is coming out....)

While I KNOW (and sista you know I know, so don't pretend I don't know, know what I mean?????) it is so easy to crawl into bed and pretty much give up on life itself, but as EVERYONE around here says,,,,,you gotta get up and put one foot in front of the other.....

So, in light of ALL that you have been through this week, what are going to do that is SPECIAL, just for you, TODAY????....

A pedicure???....

A message???....

Maybe a grande latte frappachini mocha whatcha's from Starbucks (not a coffee drinker, so bear with me...).....

Well, being well versed in the GODDESS/Mimi way, I say take your shower and get dressed. Wear something out of the ordinary for YOU. I'm not talking a dress or anything fancy, unless of course that would make you feel better...then I say fancy on...., but something that highlights the parts about YOU that YOU (not chewie) loves the most......

Don't forget your hair and makeup....those ARE must's ya know???

And the house, is it a wreck???....well, since I hate that part, I say if you hate it too, screw it today. If it something you are anal about (something I CANNOT relate to.... ), then go ahead and do some LIGHT cleaning....(today is NOT a day to conquer some big project....unless of course, THAT would make you feel better....)

And lastly, if you haven't been out much this week, go out. Go to the mall, the library, the zoo, the park, the spa (I personally vote for this one..... :D) and do something that would help you relax a little.......

This is gonna be MY day as well. Which, I guess I better get to it.....I need a shower and do my hair, and I'm gonna put MAKE-UP on for the first time this week (hey, I also had surgery Mimi, so go easy on me..... )....

Then later tonight, I am going to go get a pedi and even treat myself to a hot chocolate from Borders......hey, I may even pick me up a sweater or two......



to you today.......please take care of yourself....

not2fun

The house isn't a wreck, unless you are staring directly at the 4 baskets of unfolded laundry. They may or may not be allowed to sit another day.

For me? I'll cut the 5 hours back to three, maybe, and I may take myself out for a little field trip.

I have a couple of things I do have to get taken care of today, and I'll feel better when I have done that.

Still no response from a reputable polygrapher.

Does he know you have pretty much checked out?

LC

I'll trade ya your 4 for my 40........

(gosh I crack myself up...... )


not2fun


ps... FYI, the previous post was to help cheer ya up and to give ya a little nudge. I do know that through EVERYTHING I have been through, on those days I really took care of myself and ALLOWED my self to nurture me that it was THOSE days that made all the others a little more bearable.....(see Mimi, you taught me well.....)

Some folks are easily amused...

I've told him several times that I am not yet sure what I want.

A whole lot hinges for me on the polygraph. If he "passes" and establishes that this was the one-time slip he has portrayed it to be, I think I can attempt a plan of recovery, but not one that makes it easy for him. He still will have to do a great deal to demonstrate that he is willing to change what is wrong with him.

If he comes up with some new information and then passes the polygraph, a lot will depend on what the information is and whether he demonstrates a changed heart.

If he refuses or fails the polygraph, there is just nothing more to be done.

My 4 are awfully condensed.

I got the message from your post, and I appreciate it. I do defend my naps quite vigorously. I did put on something a little nicer today than the way-oversized Paul McCartney T shirt I was hiding under yesterday. And makeup. And I dried my hair rather than just letting it do whatever. How's that for a start?

Oh, and I actually ate some decent protein (cottage cheese) for breakfast instead of a stale Rice Krispie Treat. The dog stole the remainder of the Rice Krispie Treats from the kitchen counter last night so that choice was no longer available!

LOL...I called these ADVENTURES...

Yes..definitely..DO TAKE YOURSELF OUT!!

This is GREAT!!

But, have to ask: WHY are you not being LOVING and KIND to YOURSELF????

There's a statement that Chewie made on his thread that concerns me. It's not that noticeable but bothered ME. It has a TRACE of FOGGINESS...I think.. I MAY be making something out of NOTHING. You KNOW how he communicates. Interested in this TODAY? If so, I'll find it and bring it over here for you. He doesn't respond back to ME for whatever reason.. so I'm not gonna ask him about it.

T/J

I found a couple more notes about the 4 healing points, Chrys, and edited them in that post on my thread. Thought I'd let you know since you had copied them.

Take care.

end T/J

Sure, Mimi, I'd like that. Thanks.

Thanks! I'll go look.

Goddess Mimi,

I am trying.

FIRST OF ALL, GIRLIE...What's this I hear about you wearing a TSHIRT all day long????? Please, please, please get yourself all PRETTY..for your OWN SAKE....

That being said..I'm sorry to bring this up..but here goes..


This BOTHERS me...I wonder what Schoolbus would say about this...

The reason is, IMO, this is MORE than a STATEMENT OF FACT...like "She doesn't work at night"...He is DESCRIBING HER PERSONALITY...

What continues to bother ME the most about my H's affair is that he had an EMOTIONAL ATTACHMENT to ANOTHER WOMAN..that he had a RELATIONSHIP, an EMOTIONAL CONNECTION with another woman..that he FELT like he KNEW INTIMATELY..that they talked about WHO THEY WERE to each other...

Also, my H and I happen to talk about this issue ALOT because it's a major difference between he and I which is a BIGGY in our relationship..He is a MORNING PERSON and I am a NIGHT PERSON..and it affects the QUALITY of our time together, connecting BEST in the MIDDLE OF THE DAY...

So, THIS may be a particular TRIGGER for ME is what I'm saying...

But I HATED READING what seemed to be Chewie's DESCRIPTION of her PERSONALITY...which seemed to SLIP OUT...as if he KNOWS her INTIMATELY..YUCK...

(((((Chrys))))))

I WARNED ya if Mimi were to read any of this......

I was taking a nap earlier when you posted this, otherwise, I would have told you to get rid of it.........


Anyway, glad to hear you are doing better today. Hang in there.....


not2fun

Mimi, Thanks. I saw that statement and it triggered me a little bit, too.

Because he was indeed in really deep emotionally with the OW.

And I have never been confident that he is over her, really sees her flaws.

Just the facts, ma'am.

Too late. She caught me.

The PROBLEM is that he is still using SUCH LANGUAGE...so still FOGGY...

NOW..my H..OUT OF THE FOG..realizes that the OW was a LIAR..who PRETENDED who she was..that the OW works on CREATING a FANTASY...

Your H still SEEMS to think her BULLCRAP...IS..REALITY...

So..not out of the FOG...

Try to lift your head up out of that funk...ACT AS IF..that's how the DRESS and APPEARANCE helps..HEAD UP..CHEST OUT...the key is to maintain your SELF-RESPECT!!

I do need to ADD that him coming to grips with the REAL HER..was the LAST STEP..took a long while..

Thanks for that.

What Mimi said. Remember, these Ho's spend all their time "looking perfect" for their "MM". He never saw her in an over sized T-shirt!! I'm thinking he never saw her naked face.
There have been no TMZ reporters on her tail to put ugly pix in the tabloids. After our debacle. I made sure I had on makeup and good hair when FWH came in from work. In my mind it made the paler than pale "Miss Mucous" fade from his memory quicker.
It doesn't say " I'm pitiful, pick me", it says " I CARE ABOUT ME" It says that you are making your own mind up about your own future. Catch on to your bootstraps, throw your head back and tell yourself " I AM WORTH IT". And you decide what you are worth. You will figure out that you, as a faithful wife have a price far above rubies. Good Luck to you, whatever you decide. GF

Actually, she wore scrubs to work, which I think are hideous, but that's me....

He thought she was gorgeous.

I still really, really hurt over that.

Don't even think about it, Mimi will not permit you wearing scrubs around the house.

How do you know this?

that was my best laugh for the day.....Thanks B......


not2fun

Well, not unless she's performing some type of surgery...

OK, let's make it simple. I'll give her an out for doing some nursing care...

He said so many times when the A was ongoing. I think he called her "ethereally beautiful." I never thought she was!

Now that's a possibility! (eyeing the kitchen knives......)

Scrubs can be dowdy, but they can also be attractive. They are no longer green ar gray. She did Her HAIR and MAKEUP. In some settings, one can wear "civies" and change once they come in to work. Make her hair oily and her make up gone, how "gorgeous" is she then? GF

He told YOU this or was he telling HER this? Either way..pure BULLCRAP..He was DRUNK off of her..talking out of his mind...

:RollieEyes:

GF, true. Anyway, I cleaned up pretty good today.

We were on the SAME PAGE..doesn't hurt to FANTASIZE...just kidding..I think..

It was part of his list of her wonderful qualities.

What's this mean????? We're not giving you points for "PRETTY GOOD"...You heard what GF said...none of this poor pitiful me stuff..

So did he tell YOU this? What does he MEAN by this? That she is not of this world? HEAVENLY???

Just a saying .... as in "that girl cleans up pretty good, don't you think?" Not meant to be pitiful at all.

Makes you wonder....

Ooops..Sorry..not familiar with the saying...

It's part of the WAYWARD BULLCRAP...

Once my H finished with withdrawal, I recall him saying that he REALIZED that the OW..is "just like any other woman"..meaning she is a NORMAL person...they think every thing about the OP is PERFECT...

Actually he learned that during PLAN B..when he had to be with her 24/7...

Just like GF said, he only got to see "the AP" (as your H calls her) AT HER BEST and she was putting on ACADEMY AWARD WINNING PERFORMANCES for HIM...

It's YOUR JOB to be at YOUR BEST, too....though...

Here's what you do.... go get you some scrubs... and one of those hair caps and face mask like you see on T.V. ....

Then go get some turkey necks.... or maybe a chicken drum stick or two...(They're about the right size and shape).... and a great big heavy duty butchers knife. (You know... the kind you can chop a tree down with)

When WH comes home and see's you in the scrubs make sure you're chopping up turkey necks... and give him the "I'm a crazy woman with a knife look"... if you can make one eye twitch when you do it .... for effect.... Awsome...

His manhood will shrivel and shrink up like one of those stale winnies on a toothpick you get at the annual christmas party. He'll run everytime he sees scrubs...

After that... I wouldn't worry about scrubs...Get rid of em...



Uhhh .... if anything it'll make ya feel better

>Note to self: Graciously decline any invitation to dine at Amazin's party<

'Cause I can't stop laughing...

"ethereally beautiful."

Interesting choice of words to describe her. I wish schoolbus was around.

The OW didn't do seances and claim to heal people did she?

I was thinking of the meaning, and it is usually something unreal, like in a myth, fairytale, or fantasy. Maybe it WAS only an emotional affair, and he is telling the truth.

But I know it is hurtful to you. How does one live up to THAT? But I can tell you it was more in his mind than anything else.

Glad I could tickle yer funnybone...

I guess I'm just in one of those moods tonight.

Thanks guys, you all gave me a good laugh.

What time do you expect Chewie home tonight? Is he on call again?

LC

Chrys,



"ethereally beautiful"

OK we need to break that down and look at it differently. The first thing we have to do is cross out the word beautiful. Nothing about wayward behavior is beautiful so strike that word.

The definition of ethereal is:

e·the·re·al (-thîr-l)
adj.
1. Characterized by lightness and insubstantiality; intangible.
2. Highly refined; delicate. See Synonyms at airy.
3.
a. Of the celestial spheres; heavenly.
b. Not of this world; spiritual.
4. Chemistry Of or relating to ether.

I crossed out the ones that don't fit wayward behavior. So the only one that fits is #4.

You said she wears scrubs, let me tell you if they are hospital issued scrubs they probably do stink. Any hospital I ever worked for the hospital issued scrubs were always stinky.

So by my definition she is NOT beautiful and she is stinky.

Sorry I know how immature this is, but I had to post it.

LC

He should be home by 7 PST. No call. Tomorrow I am meeting some old friends for lunch and then we have to go do nursing home rounds. He is taking me with him. Joy.

That's a funny perspective, LC, and I do appreciate the support.

Have you ever gone with him before?

LC

I spent the first 10 years of my marriage going on most of my husband's out of town sales calls with him. He considered it free vacations for me. I considered it torture to have to sit around in his customers' electronics stores (gag me) for hours at a time while he bs'd with the owners and salespeople. Got a lot of books read, but I basically had no life for 10 years (that's when D18 was born and I had an excuse not to go). Hope you don't get stuck in that.

My experience is different than Cat's. I LOVE going with my H on his work calls...riding with him in the car...I should have known our marriage was in trouble when he stopped wanting me to be with him..NOW that he's IN LOVE with me again..he loves having me with him..some of our best times NOW are spent riding around together in the car..choosing the MUSIC that we want to listen to...having DEEP CONVERSATIONS..getting to REALLY know each other..helping to make his WORK less TEDIOUS...I DRESS UP for the OCCASIONS...he LOVES being with ME and I with HIM...sounds like you had stopped being IN LOVE with your H, Cat...I LOVE BEING WITH MINE as much as possible...

I have gone with him before. It is his way of proving he is where he says he is and it has helped me with the trauma of his leaving the house to go on "errands" to go along on necessary ones. But it is several hours of reading in the car, and I had stopped going along the last few months. He asked me to come with him again.

Chrys,

Do you sit in the car waiting for him to see all his patients? If so, why not go in with him and make yourself known? I'm not suggesting you round with him, just go in say hi to the workers, then sit in the waiting room reading your book.

LC

I've LEARNED that this is a sign of LOVE..your H wanting you to BE with HIM...DUH..how come I just figured this out? We would have done it when we were courting, right? Why did we stop? Remember Harley's 15 hours????? Men want their LOVER to be a "shoulder to shoulder buddy"..from the wonderful, eye-opening book "LOVE AND RESPECT" by Eggerichs...

GREAT IDEA..if possible...

OR some other available room...

Listen to him while he talks to you in the car...my H points out different sites...and likes my FULL ATTENTION..look straight into his eyes..rub his leg now and then...kiss him when he gets out of the car and/or when he gets back in...say "I missed you" every now and then..tell him something about your book...CONNECT...talk about your hopes and dreams for the future..hopes and dreams for YOUR CHILDREN..only you and your H share the children...she HATES that...

"Usually?"

He has two different kinds of hospital requirements. The more time consuming one is at a different hospital.

Crys,
Flick told me that OW was beautiful 'too him even if others don't see it"

Funny, now he calls her ugly. Anyhoo, you know what I look like, I could email you a pic of OW. Wayward fog appears to give the fog-ees very generous glasses as far as the OP goes.

Mimi, I can see how you can enjoy such times. Mine weren't like that. With my H's outgoing nature, and my non-outgoing nature, the first 10 years of our marriage consisted of me listening to him talk, going where he wanted to go, doing what he wanted to do, helping him with everything he wanted to do, and him reveling in the fact that he had a witness to all his greatness and success. He loves me, but he really needs me to be all about him.

We have no deep conversations; we have him talking about his work. Period. We have never gotten to really know each other; well, I know all his thoughts, his feelings, his desires, his everything; I have spoken so little in the last 30 years that he wouldn't even be able to tell you 10 things about me. Not that I haven't tried to talk; but that when I do, his eyes glaze over because it doesn't interest him, and he interrupts me if I speak for more than a minute. (and yes, we've discussed this, and he tried to stop interrupting me but can't) And his business trips consist of me walking into the business with him and within one minute, he has met up with the owner and I'm left alone for anywhere from 30 minutes to 3 or 4 hours. I was too weak to tell him 'I'm going to go do something else.' I tried that at first, but if I'm not there waiting whenever he would get done (and we never knew when that would happen), he'd call and fuss at me for making him wait. He'd tell me how embarrassed he was that he had to wait around at his customer's place for me to show up. Or he'd throw a fit and leave the place and start walking! Never mind the hotel would be 25 miles away; he'd walk because he knew I would find him and pick him up and apologize for upsetting him, every time. So after a few times of trying that, I just quit, and would find a place to sit at his customers' places and just wait. I was raised to be a mouse, to never speak up and never ask for what I wanted, and marrying a strong person just solidified it.

The only thing that saved me was having D18, because then I had an excuse to stop going on his trips. So I wish I had your experiences, but I didn't. And it wasn't because I fell out of love with him.

He wasn't evidencing love for YOU. Right, Cat?

My H loves me, I have no doubt of that. But no, he wasn't aware of what he could have done to make me feel loved. His way was to buy me things. He came from such poverty that he dug in dumpsters for food for his brothers and sisters. So in his mind, all he had to do to show me love was buy me things. And I was in no condition to tell him otherwise.

And the other part of the equation was that I never said anything. Tons of dysfunction on both our parts. Sad it's taken me 30 years to learn what to do.

Unacceptable, hon.

Move, retire, pump gas, he can't be going to the OM's workplace EVER. His income is not a financial issue when weighed against a divorce.

Very funny. We should compare notes.

So far the precaution he has in place about when he goes to that hospital has been OK. He has been talking to me about EPs today and I suspect he will post his list on his thread later.

But yeah, I'd love to be far away from here if there was a way to do that without hurting DS14. He is a dual-diagnosis special needs kid and is in a special program that you would be very hard pressed to duplicate.

This issue is not resolved but we have others to get through.

Oh, and we did go to church today.

Bumping myself out of shameless narcissism.

The roller coaster has been twisting and turning today.

There was an incident that really threw me this morning and I was ready to walk out.... but instead I confronted Chewie about it on the phone and he did what he could in that setting to resolve it. No need to get into the incident; it was something that came out of nowhere that caused another question; Chewie's answer was consistent with what else I knew and had observed; and it can be independently verified.

In the meantime, I did a bit of crying out to the heavens over the difficulty of finding a polygrapher; then I discovered I had old voicemails including 2 on the polygraph issue, and even better, some email correspondence from a polygrapher who I think I will be able to work with. So much for ranting at God while on the treadmill.

It would be great if anyone is inclined to give Chewie some practical feedback on his EPs he posted. I asked him to add the "flirtatious conversation/private conversation" stuff. We have had some discussions about my perceptions about the ENs that he leaves unprotected (thanks, L4, for your stuff on that!) and "admiration from people in the workplace" is one of those thing that I think is a huge danger to me.

Chewie has been acting remorseful; not arrogant with me. I know the difference.

I hope I wasn't out of line the other day when I was talking about the scrubs. I didn't realize your husband has a thread here as well.

It was ment to get a giggle out of you and not to offend you or your husband.

No offense. I don't think he is reading this thread but he can if he wants. I think he's see the humor.

We are working on the polygraph issue. I have found someone I think we can work with and am working to set something up that works with Chewie's schedule. He is still phrasing his agreement in terms of "I will do that IF you really think you want it" and yes, I really do want it.

Yesterday's trigger-fest was awful to go through but Chewie has done his part to help me with it. Unfortunately, he had forgotten he was on call last night (as had I) so we had no chance to sort things out once the calls started coming in-- and today we are both sleep-deprived.

It shocked me how quickly I got back to the place of questioning everything about my perceptions and judgment-- and yes, sanity and value as a human being-- as a result of this latest setback. I'm trying to explain to Chewie how profoundly de-stabilizing it is to be lied to. I think he "gets" that his little indiscretion has brought me back to full-blown PTSD.

So I have put it to him this way-- if he cares about me at all, in any way, he needs to put a stop to my suffering by once again going through the whole story, without lies, leaving anything out, minimizing, evading, blowing off questions, or giving me answers that may be technically "true" but are in reality incomplete. And then he needs to back it up with a polygraph.

If we navigate those waters successfully, the MB weekend might work. I'm still thinking about that.

Chrys,

How are you doing today? Did you get any sleep last night?

LC

LC, Thanks for asking. I'm OK today. Last night we watched the MB video that Mark suggested to Chewie, and Chewie said it was excellent.
And I'm catching up on the sleep, did some essential errands yesterday, and will be back on the treadmill today.

Yikes, it doesn't take any time at all to fall a few pages down.

OK, I found a polygraph person. A woman, we've had some good email discussions and she seems to get where I am coming from.

Setting up a time was difficult--I had to choose between this Sunday afternoon (after she has been away all weekend), the morning of Valentines Day, and the weekend of our son's birthday.

So after discussing it with Chewie, we are doing the poly at 3 pm Sunday.

That's good news Chrys. I hope you get some resolution and peace from the polygraph. Are your questions ready to go?

Chrys,

I'm glad you found someone. How does it all work, for example, do you have a certain number of questions you can ask or is it a certain amount of time? Do you have your questions ready?

LC

I believe so. I emailed them to the examiner and she thought most of them would work. She does a pre-and post-interview and the exam in the middle. I will not be present for the exam.
I know this is going to be terribly uncomfortable and embarrassing for Chewie. I just hope he can do this with a loving and not a resentful attitude. If so, it will go a long,long way.

What is the post interview for? Explaining the results? If you aren't present she's going to talk to Chewie about the results without you?

The only part I am out of the room for is the actual time on the machine.

So here is my early weekend update. I had a very hard week emotionally with lots of meltdowns and tears. It really didn't take much to push me back to full-blown PTSD.

Nevertheless, I am coming to some peace about all this.

The poly is set for 3 pm tomorrow. Chewie has said that he will spend time today telling me again whatever I need to know.

I am hopeful that he will pass the poly.

If he does, I think a MB weekend would be a good thing and he is willing to go, as he said all along. I am not sure about doing it in March and want to find out more about what else is coming up on the schedule before I make that decision.

What this is solidifying is that I do not want a crappy marriage where I feel neglected much of the time. If he is on board to make a great marriage for both of us, fine. If not, why bother?

So, we shall see what transpires.

Good luck. I am confident Chewie will pass. I think this was a one time slip on NC.

Thanks. We've had our discussion and he did disclose a phone call from OW2 shortly after he sent the NC email. He also disclosed one other minor thing relating to OW1. The reasons both were not disclosed to me before were that he thought I would make a big deal about it.

I told him we have to fix this...it is far better for me to know everything. He did come up with a solution to the issue relating to OW1 that I think will help a lot.

So, crossing my fingers about tomorrow.....

Oh, he also volunteered that he lied when he said his receptionist suggested that he send the pictures to OW2. He said it was all his own doing. And yes, we've discussed that it really amounted to an attempt to start the affair again.

Are there ever any other reasons? :-)

I believe C that the email was a one time thing after a long NC

I don't believe that it wasn't a PA.

Hope he proves me wrong.

I too find that the claim of no PA stretches credulity past the breaking point, but we shall see.

Good luck tomorrow. I will be praying for both of you.

LC

Ditto!

Mark

Crysalis

Sending peaceful, calming, caring thoughts your way today Chrysalis.

Wishing you peace....

.....Praying for you.

Ace

I don't think I've commented on your thread, but I've been following it. Wanted you to know I'm thinking about you today.

Thanks, everyone, for your kind thoughts.

Chewie has posted an update on his thread. We are still going through with the polygraph.

It would probably be a good thing for Chewie to continue to be in dialog with anybody who posts to him. And if you want to do me any kindness, please continue to post to him.

Dearest Chrys,

I too have never posted to you before. As A BW who discovered repeatedly that NC had been a complete facade, I know how this feels, and I am sending you much love from here in England.

Did you have any idea that the truth was anything like this?

Chrys-

I can't begin to tell you how sorry I am. I don't even know you and I'm angry for you. I flat out told him I think you ought to kick his arrogant [censored] to the curb.

That was just beyond nauseating.

Chrys,

I am sorry beyond words. Even hugs could not posssibly be enough, but if I could see you I would give them to you.



I am praying that he has told you all now. Do NOT let him wimp out on that NC letter.

I am praying that the men on here, especially tst and maybe lousygolfer, will be able to get through to him.

Blessings to you and your children.

He's still covering up some stuff .... prepare to be hurt again.

I'm so sorry.

Yep to Pep..

Chrys..I told ya he was sounding FOGGY...it was soooo leaking out in his posts...still is...

I'm so sorry, too...

Soooo sorry you have to go thru yet another D-Day..Prayers are with you this evening. I posted him a note with my "medical" perspective on this. I hope he feels like 7 kinds of a fool and I hope you make him live in the 7th level of He## for a while.
You know, the one reseved for betrayers. Hang tough, GF

My H came to the door of the motel room where I found them and claimed they were just TALKING...I don't get it..

You're in my prayers...

Thanks, all, for your kind words.

I believe in redemption, I really do.

But I am exhausted.

Chewie failed the portion of the polygraph having to do with the extent of physical contact (he had previously admitted to me that there was some early contact including fondling, etc.). The questions related to intercourse, oral sex, and whether he was lying about those things. The examiner (who, God knows, so wanted him to pass) talked with him, reformulated the questions after clarification, and asked again. He failed again. She showed me the charts. It was not ambiguous. I am neither stupid nor uneducated. I understand the high false pass/fail rate and I understand a fair amount about how credibility is proven, or not.

He had story that wasn't credible, a history of repeated lies, and a lot at stake. Whatever. He's busy feeling sorry for himself over the polygraph. Whatever.

Do I still think redemption is possible? Yes.

Am I sick to death of this charade? Yes.

Do I have a decision made? Nope.

I know I have been with this man for 30 years and that cutting him off is like amputating a limb (or worse). His body is an extension of mine. I hate being out of the same room as he is in. And I also know he has acted in a despicable manner and is completely unworthy of any relationship with me.

And that's all I know.

And if the affair was physical doesn't mean that there can't be RECOVERY. My H's affair was over two years long and was highly EMOTIONAL and PHYSICAL and we couldn't be happier today.

If Chewie is willing to do the work of Recovery, really repent and be open and honest with you, you can one day have a happy marriage...

I had been married it seemed like FOREVER, too, Chrys...

You'll make 6 decisions a day for the next three months, hon.

I am so sorry to hear this, Chrys. But I think most of us veterans could see it.

First off, toss aside the point of even thinking of not believing there was sex. Reality check.

Second....here is the lesson I'm learning, and I do think it applies to you.

I have to make it POSSIBLE for WW to tell me the truth. Quite literally, it is not right now. She does NOT want divorce, I have acted out in every way but physical violence, I haven't LET her have the opportunity to tell the truth.

Frankly, the way you were so hurt about the stupid email, which now looks so minor, I can totally understand Chewie not feeling he could confess his past. Remember Chris Rock about OJ? "I'm not saying it was right -- but I understand!"

You, know, SSS would laugh at her ever being a role model but look at her thread with her wayward Green Mile. They did some right things...GM came clean right away with the whole horrible tale, they got on anti-deps, they got going with emergency Harley phone counseling, etc

Anyway, it is all about where I am at for you guys too -- honesty. You are going to have to coax the truth out with care than rip it out with tongs. You won't get the real story that way.

Trust the man who knows.

Hang in there..

Mike

PS: Scratch above. I just read his last post. Toss him out, arrogant j3rk. He thinks he is still going to play you.

He's still lying.

I'll never forget when PEP told me the same about my H...

I didn't want to believe her..

She was absolutely RIGHT..

THANKS AGAIN, PEP...

That's what it looks like to me...

Mark

Arggh, so now I'm REALLY pissed off.

Still lying? Maybe. Even, probably.

Tonight I've heard the litany of things wrong with me. Oh, he tried not to act like he really believed it caused his infedelity, but I've heard about the old weight problem. And I've heard about how I've "made myself unemployable by assuming the identity of the mother of a sick child."

Give me a freaking break.

Yes, I have a child with big problems. Yes, I've become isolated. Yes, I left my career and probably can't get it back after 16.5 years away.

Yes,I've battled obesity my entire life, done the impossible, and know it is a battle I cannot ultimately win. Age and hormones will eventually defeat even my best efforts. I still fight, every day.

I acted in good faith. He did not.

What a spoiled brat.

Cyhrys, stick to your guns.

Chrys, I am so sorry...I don't know what else to say except for that. I am glad that you got the truth from the poly, even if your dumb*ss refuses to admit it.

(((hugs)))

That's what liars do when they are cornered - they go on the attack.

Screw Plan B I move for Plan D.

Lying [censored] STILL can't tell the truth.

I'm so sorry Chrys but I suggest you excise this cancer immediately. He will NEVER be trustworthy. I'm so sorry.

Crysalis

He just sent the NC email. I thought it was completely wooden and fake, and told him so.

He has called out for Monday and Tuesday, but as of Wednesday, I am at a loss.

I'm going to bed now. It is raining and i want the physical comfort of being in the same bed as my spouse of 28 years.

Gads, why?

Why?

Why?

I thought he was going to wait until more people had a chance to look at it? Why is he sending it, it is your letter. It is yours to decide what to do with it, not his.

I am sorry Chrysalis but I don't want Flick posting to him anymore. He is still a bit foggy and I don't want to run the risk that he starts to think Chewie's words have value.

OK I understand. By the time you get here something will have changed anyway. Either Chewie will have gotten it or our status will have changed. God, I hope, pray he gets it.

I told him to go ahead and send. I am expecting her to freak out for 2 days and then by wednesday when he goes back to work, who knows?

She is a crazy B%^&*N anyway.

No sweetie, you misunderstand.

We still want to meet and shoot and stuff, but for it to be like when you came here. Not talking about MB stuff KWIM???
So you ok'ed the sending? I will have to change my post to him

I okayed the sending.

I think FLick is really good for Chewie.


I also think it is good for Flick to help another struggler, like Chewie. In fact, I think Flick benefits from reaching out to help more than anyone he talks to.

But I ** know** chewie needs to associate *help* with a face and place, like Flick. I thin this was a little miracle for them, for me, to meet up.

ok.

Your prolly right. Chewie is the first time Flick has been interested in someone. I just worry because he does say slightly foggy stuff about the sitch. He did try to say the poly 'might' have been false, but also agreed that the episode on Mythbusters we watched about the accuracy was pretty compelling. Just quietly he did say he thinks Chewie is (expletive) five ways to friday, and should just fess up, take the beating and move on. 2 days out of his life max that way. This way just drags on and on ad nauseum

OK will it help if we bring Ds 14, soon DS15 along? Who is still, god bless him, innocent of all of this?

LOL sorry but Flick is brilliant

why are WHs so stoopid?

OK really really going to bed now..

G'nite sweetie. I'll email you my thoughts.

Chrys,

I was a lurker on this board for about 2 years before I posted, and I read your threads during that time. I have been re-reading them and I have bumped 3 on the GQ forum and 3 on Recovery in the hope that Chewie will read them and weep.

However, reading them again has given me a distressing overview of your experiences.

I think you have worked at creating a marriage of "technical' NC, openness and transparency, but that real NC, openness and transparency have not come about because of Chewie's alienation from the marriage.

You, Chrys, have never been allowed to explore the previous affair that Chewie has confessed to, nor the suspected other affairs. I saw that the current OW spoke of previous affairs - plural - when she left a message on his machine a few years ago.

It could be that Chewie has not been engaged in your marriage for many years.

Chewie's OW is married with children. Despite counselling with SH and despite the urgings of posters here, you have never exposed to her H.

OW clearly does not wish to leave her husband just yet, if at all, but she wants to maintain her affair with Chewie while she stays in her marriage. It could well be that she intends to leave her husband when her children are older, and that Chewie is waiting for her to make that move. There must be some reason why this affair has gone on for 5 years, through the near-breakdown of your own marriage and counselling and follow-up homework with SH. I don't think that Chewie is merely addicted to the high that contact gives him; I think that he is "in love" with, and committed to, his affair partner.

You should have exposed this affair to her husband when you first posted here and received that advice. Had you done so, it is unlikely that this affair could have continued in secret for so long. Exposure to her H might have made the affairees come out into the open and leave their spouses, or it might have made it the affair whither, but it is most unlikely that you would be where you are now. One way or another you would have had a clear outcome.

Whether you intend to stay with Chewie or not, this affair must be exposed to OWH today. You have enabled the continuing affair by allowing her to stay in contact with your H under cover of secrecy. You must by now know all the arguments for why the other spouse should know about the affair, whether it has ended or not. If you do not want to be here again in a few months or a year, you must expose to OWH right now.

And I've heard about how I've "made myself unemployable by assuming the identity of the mother of a sick child."

Wow, that one jumped off the screen and made my heart fall...........

Hugs to you.

Chrys and I had a discussion about this after her last D-day. SH is the one who told her NOT to expose. If she was paying all that money to counsel with him I think she should listen to him. I wonder what he would say about it now?

LC

I have skimmed through the read, admittedly, but I cannot find where he told her NOT to expose. I have read where she says "exposure did not come up at the last counselling session. I'll see what SH says at the next one" and then nothing was said by SH.

I know that SH sometimes counsels that exposure should take place if he feels that the WS can be drawn into recovery by him. If he told Chrys this, was it when Chewie was apparently on board with counselling and the Home Study course? Would SH have said this after D Day 4?

It's on one of her old threads from probably back in late 2007 or early 2008. It would be much easier to find if the search feature worked.

I don't have time to look for it right now.

LC

Sending you prayers and hugs, Chrys.

I think it is really counter-productive to even entertain this thought with Chrys, given that most of us KNEW that was going to come out the way it did.

A big thank you and return of hugs to everyone who has been kind enough to post to me and/or Chewie.

Of course I don't believe his story. Of course he has made the relationship with OW his primary one and is protecting her.

I think it is Pep who says "Waywards lie. They just do." My husband is a confused, messed-up alien at the moment.

He told me this morning that the light went on in his head when he woke up and he finally "heard" that I can no longer feel safe in this community, no matter what, and that the minute he goes back to work I will feel afraid.

I told him that I *am* not safe, that no matter what his best efforts are, he will be in contact with her again and it will start up again.

And I told him that unless 2 things happen divorce is inevitable.

1. A massive change of heart on his part; AND
2. We leave the area.

As for specifics as to who to tell what, I ask you to kindly leave that stuff off the message boards. It is not wise for me to post my plans along those lines, even if I had any. I've heard you all.

He is off work today and tomorrow and has gone back to bed. We have not heard from OW this morning.

He seems to be beginning to get that his house of cards has utterly collapsed. Whether he will come to any real repentance remains to be seen. I've been quite blunt with him about my perspective about that; probably not so wise on my part but I am going to tell him how I see it. Nothing to lose, is there?

Thanks for bumping my threads; I don't think you need to keep bumping as he read them all yesterday at my request.

I may take the day off from further posting. I'm really, really tired.

I can only imagine how drained you must feel right now - physically, emotionally, spiritually. We've never really talked, but my heart goes out to you. I'm so sorry you're going through this. Please take care and get some rest if you can.

Chin up, girl. All of this awfulness needed to happen for you to be able to really start recovery. I don't know if you will choose to recover with hubby or without him.

He is indeed ADDICTED. The OW is vicious and NASTY. He doesn't see that. Kind of like a heroin addict. He thinks his drug is beautiful.

YOU deserve better, and I urge you to continue demanding better. You are the beautiful one, and you have proved it by your devotion to him and your family.

And the way for him to recover is to have no access to his drug. You've tried trusting him, but it was the same as trusting a junkie.

Now that the truth is out, the Harleys can give YOU a plan. I would talk to them without hubby.

In the meantime, rest up and stay strong.

I could not think of anything that says it better than this quote from believer just up thread...


My heart is aching for you. You are strong, obviously strong even if it does not feel like it. Rest up and take good care of yourself. I am thinking of you and still sending peaceful thoughts to you. I am so sorry.

Sorry for your hurt Chrys. {{{Chrys}}}}

Try to get some rest. Sending prayers to you.

Chewie has arranged for the entire week off and has offered to give notice and request a leave of absence for the notice period. I am thinking about what I need before I respond. He does have to take call tomorrow night until 1 am but I can go with him if he has to go out.
He has a call in to our old pastor requesting a meeting as early as possible in the week.
We are trying to figure out what is possible financially in terms of how/when to leave the area and his job.

He has asked me if I can possibly give him another chance. To which I have responded that I do not know; that his life would be easier and simpler if we divorced and he would still have his life and support systems intact.

And I have told him that this will not be an easy road; that I will cut him no slack.

He is sitting in the room with me reading the book that Gordon MacDonald wrote after his rather spectacular fall.

And while I appreciate the spirit in which all your chastising of him has been done, I am not going to urge him to come here until he has had a day or two to take care of personal, spiritual business.

He tells me he feels lost.

As for OW, she sent him a couple of nasty, threatening emails this morning. Nasty towards me (personal attack), denying the affair, and threatening to go to HR. Gotta love her! Thats OK, I have a rather large volume of evidence.

I'm trying to eat and breathe but probably won't post any exercise victories today! Food is pretty much yogurt and soup-- that is all I can handle.

Don't stop praying just yet, OK?

I won't stop. Thinking of you.

Better beat her there.

I suggest you don't do anything right now. The OW isn't going to go to HR. She is a nasty homewrecker and isn't getting her way. Sucks to be her.

Things seem dark right now because the boil has been cut open and all the pus that has been festering in the dark is being cleaned out.

Head up high, lean on us, and know that YOU are the only good woman for Chewie. He is still in a dark place, and I will be praying for spiritual help for him.

Huh? I thought OW didn't work with your WH anymore?

Yeah, I thought that too.

Or maybe that is a new surprise from Chewie...

Check!

Why would the OW care if she was truly NOT having an affair with him. It is nutz her writing you angry stuff.

Ethereal= Out of this world...nutz!

Chrys:

I have started a prayer thread for you and your family.

((((to you all....especially your children))))

Oh, sorry. Yes, new surprise, before the poly. I'd found some evidence, which he denied, but he knew it was going to come up on the poly.

And when I completely melted down Saturday night (for probably the 7th night in the week) he lay awake beginning to feel the impact of what he had done.

Sunday morning he told me about the email account, that she was back working there at another office (which I had uncovered) and a few more things.

Oh, and Saturday night I suddenly realized I was hearing a muted version of ILYBINILWY and realized Sunday morning on awakening that there HAD to be ongoing contact. I told him that, and he began to open the floodgates.

So not only personal suicide but professional suicide as well...BTDT. Too stupid!

If OW wants to go screaming at HR, let her. My OW told me the same and I told her go right ahead...if FWH got written up or fired that's his stupid fault but that I couldn't wait until everyone in the company knew what a tramp she was. Plus since I knew all sorts of sorid details of the A and her pre-A life that it would be my pleasure to spread the word just how pathetic she is.

All I heard was crickets chirping after that.

She is scared you are going to expose.

OW BH deserves to know now what has been happening in his life.

I know about dem boils...

Mine almost killed me.

Left alone they do NOT heal. The infection spreads and the wound becomes even bigger. Only solution? Cut away all the diseased tissue and kill the infection.

Then REAL healing can begin.

It might take a couple of surgeries.

Mark

Well Chewie is looking pretty beat up and has been spending the day in the same room with me. He has started to put his resume together and we are looking into 401k withdrawals.
He has talked with me some about his thinking... remorseful, reflective, how did I become this person kind of stuff. No drama. Just very quiet and serious.
He has a meeting at 3 tomorrow with our old pastor. He told DS14 tonight that we would both be gone tomorrow afternoon, so I don't know what he is thinking about that.....
We need an open door and a neon sign to direct us where to go, if anyone is inclined to pray. Fast.

Chrys,
A lot of people will be praying for you I'm sure. I'll pray for your husband that he will truly repent and surrender everything to God, I'll pray that God will change his heart, that He will give him an undivided heart and put a new spirit in him. Eze 11:19



Angie

Hi,
Chrys,
I am inexperienced in Affairs of this length. But it sure does seem that a key reason he is denying the physical aspect of the affair is that he is protecting his OW from exposure. His statement in his first no contact letter about him being the key promoter (I forget the exact word he used) of the affair points directly to his concern about how exposure would affect her. I know from reading this thread that you apparently did not expose last time.

He is still protecting her. He is not commited to re-building the Marriage. I'm sure you know this, but it seems so key to me.

He wrote this in the NC letter to let OW know to stick with their story that it wasn't a PA.

Hi Chrys

This is my first post to you, Ive read through your thread just now.

What Lake just said also hit my radar as well. I read where, in one of the OW's emails to your H awhile back, it started with "While this affair has never gone physical" kind of thing. It struck me as contrived, an unnecessary disclaimer. It was odd and out of place. It seemed deliberate .

In your H's NC letter to the OW, he carried this theme over as well. It just is so obvious that they are protecting each other. There has been such a ridiculous emphasis on there NOT being a PA that, polygraphy results aside, it has had the effect of a GIANT neon sign saying "We are having a PA".

It sounds as if your H is in damage control mode. He is trying to hold it together long enough to lull you into false security.

Again.

Im so sorry for what you have been through. I read your story and my heart just breaks.

Im going to say this as gently as possible as it is meant with a great deal of goodwill, but Why do you think that you dont deserve better than this?

understood about the language choices. Got it.

We are in the gallows humor phase this morning. Still pretty much being each other's shadows.

Chewie remarked it would serve him right for him to leave his job, move us someplace cold and dark, and for me then to decide I couldn't do it.

I came up with a list of cold, dark places we could start looking.

And then I told him my line of thinking is that next, one of us will get a terminal illness. He thought it should be him.

The sun did peek out so we are going to walk the dog at some point before going to see our old pastor.

He's still reading that book I gave him and doing some reflecting and talking about the choices he made early on that should have been different. He is beginning to be appalled at what he has done.

I'm not feeling very much but when I do I LB.

Chrys -

The house across the street is for sale...

Just sayin'...

((((Chrys))))

I think the Antarctic is currently looking for medical staff.......

If he should leave the practice in which he now works, I can just imagine the letter to his patients:

I am leaving this practice and relocating to some cold, dark place so that I can work on my marriage which I strayed from by having a 5 year long emotional affair - never a physical affair. I will be practicing in this cold, dark place assuming my wife does not have me tarred and feathered first.

I think that sounds every bit as logical as a letter I got from one of my doctors:

I am leaving the practice of medicine to focus my attention on developing some unique intellectual projects involving some really unintelligible stuff about nerves and to spend more time writing songs which is part of why I relocated to this city.

If you don't want cold and dark, how about blazing hot in the Middle East where if you touch another man's W they will cut his one eyed friend off?

Chrys, I'm sorry, but I'm not buying it.

I believe he IS appalled, but only appalled at the fact that he wasn't smart enough to continue working around all the EP's. Appalled that he slipped up on the photo e-mail and got caught. I believe he's thinking, "It was just a simple fricken photo e-mail and my own carelessness has caused everything to completely unravel".

I sense that you are staying in the M and I'm sure your H sense's this as well. Because of this, he is going to pull you down the slippery slopes again and again.

NC has been a bust. Agreed to it, but never intended to continue!

EP's have been a bust. Agreed to it, but never intended to continue!

What else can he do to make you feel safe? He reluctantly agrees to everything you ask but, but never really intends to continue.

I don't think anything he does will make you feel safe again.

I really am so sad for you, and I have been praying for you and your's.

May God hold you tight and may HE make you feel safe in His care and protection.

That is exactly what I think and I also agree that all the mentions of EA only blah blah are pure and simple damage control and getting stories straight.

Sheesh, for a smart doc........... :RollieEyes:

Just because i think you need it &

SC

Heck, I'm still amazed that he's hanging on to it was 5 yr EA.

tst,

I for one didn't believe it when you began to repent. Yet.....

I am curious. What turned you around?

Hey, Chrys! How about a nice, WARM place on the southeastern coast? I'd be happy to help ya househunt--some real bargains at the moment.

Following your story (and chewie's) and praying you will have deep peace, however your story ends.

Hugs to you. You are one incredible woman.

Right Here Waiting

It IS currently summer there. One of my guys was there this time last year studying the polar ice.

I hesitate to reside anywhere that makes the wine freeze in your glass during the summer months.

That's Middle South...

...Texas, that is.

Hence the house across the street.

It was not WHAT, but WHO. God! & 100% surrender!

I agreed 100% to do whatever SMB wanted!

Here is what she required.

tst - I'm with Chrys - I had given up hope for your marriage and doubted you were for real until you had the post nup agreement.

One day maybe you can post your story from your side about how this change came about.

Chrys,

No one should have believed me without heartfelt repentance and actions to back it up.

Chewie should not be believed either.
He has not been honest in 5 years ....... What was his character prior to that?

I'll check my WW's left and right ventricle for you.


I doubt it. He is being to be appalled at the consequences of his actions. He is probably beginning to go into withdrawal because of NC.

I've been tied up in my own drama, I haven't read the whole thread, has he even copped to PA yet?

Don't be heartened by false progress, you won't see true marital remorse for three months, if ever.

And I am wondering if Chewie's willingness to walk away from his 20-year prominence in the community and completely change the kind of medicine he practices to something far less demanding, in the location of my choosing, is similar to your post-nup.

Mike,

You owe me a new laptop. Mine got "laughed" on.

The character change started 9 years ago, the year our DS14 got really sick.

Before that he was....amazing.

Which makes me sadder than just about anything.

Thanks, I needed to hear that.

I thought Texans only pistol whipped people.

About the nasty emails from OW - have you changed your email addresses yet? You can also set up blocks so that anything with her name and specific key words will be permanently deleted without anybody ever seeing them. You don't need to read her lies - they only hurt you more and feed his addiction.

My thoughts and prayers are with you.

drgnfly

(((((((Chrys)))))))))

I am so sorry. I don't quite know what else to say. I am sorry about the developments, I am sorry you are going through this (yet AGAIN), and my thoughts and prayers are going up to you. I read all of this on Sunday, and like Mark, was so mad, well, you know.....

Be strong and take care of YOU....(and that means NO WEARING THE PAUL McCARTNEY T-SHIRT ALL DAY..... )......

not2fun

A New Jerseyan would say that is a total waste of a perfectly good item that could shoot someone.

Them there Texan's are KNOWN for wastin' perfectly good items.........


not2fun

Not,

No worries, I put the Sir Paul shirt back in the drawer. It's only for treadmill time now.

The pastor visit was disappointing yesterday, I was hoping for some clarity and instead we spent 2.5 hours talking about a lot of stuff that just made me want to quit. Then Chewie had to take call last night and I had a complete meltdown. We were up until 2 or so with my meltdown.

So I made a couple of lists this morning.

One was "what do I want?" and "what do I need?"

The other was the pluses and minuses of 3 different options.

1. Open marriage-- Plan FU -- I'll do what I please, don't ask me any questions, we'll negotiate a fair schedule for time off from child rearing, and I won't even pretend to try to care about you any more. We don't have to move, we don't have to uproot DS14, and you don't have to make any uncomfortable personal changes. The downside-- emotional/relational. Sounded awful to both of us.
2. Divorce. I get free. We negotiate a fair childrearing schedule and a fair financial settlement. I can live where I want and do what I want. DS 14 could stay in his school and you don't have to make any uncomfortable personal changes.
Downside: emotional/relational; destruction of the family. Sounds awful to him; I twist and turn with the roller coaster on this one.
3. Reconciliation. We move away as soon as possible. We get serious about the MB program and build a life that works for both of us. Look for 5 years of really tough times to get to healing. You have to give up your current practice, your community, and DS14 will have to move and change schools. That's the one Chewie says he wants, and if it really happens I'd love that, too. I just don't trust it until I see it happen.

We talked about timing. The most precipitous thing would be for him to give notice and ask for a leave of absence for the notice period; but it is unsure they would grant his request for LOA and he'd be contractually obligated. What we are working on is job search stuff right away. Chewie has put together his CV and arranged for references and has already started sending his CV around.

I told him that if concrete steps were not taken regarding finding a new place to live by the time he has to go back to work Monday, I would divorce him.

The danger period is when he goes back to work. I don't know how I'll get through or he'll get through.

He told me today that before, when he ended the affair and it actually held for 2 months, he had held on to a few sweaters OW had been giving him every year for Christmas presents. I had no idea about them. He kept them because he didn't want to give them up. He lied to me at the time about whether he had given everything up. We are going to his office tonight and ditch them and anything else we can find that relates to her.

We are putting together a list of places to consider moving to and only a few of them are cold and dark. I did offer him the Antarctica suggestion.

Chrys...just so you know, this is exactly what we did.

It wasn't easy, but FWH's willingness to do this and his PUSHING to do it helped ease my discomfort. He took all the steps to make this happen, and it did.

It's been a good thing for us...I pray the same for you.

(((hugs)))

Hang in there, girl. Fight for your marriage and your family.

Keep in mind that hubby is a drug addict. When he goes cold turkey, he will get over his addiction.

It is interesting to me that he seemed to change when your son got very sick. Sick kids are a big strain on the marriage. Maybe he felt guilty thinking that he should have been able to heal your son, or prevent his illness.

Your husband has been with you this far, and hasn't left for the OW. She is nasty, and maybe somewhere deep inside he realizes that.

Take care of yourself right now, and don't settle for less than you deserve.

I have posted to your H before, but never to you. I was not at all hopeful about your M until I read your last post and the plan 3 for your H to change jobs and your family to move to a different area.

My H's A was with a co-worker and although the P part of the A ended right away, it was not until three months later when he left his job and we moved several states away that we started to R. I fully believe that if my H were still there, the A would have been back in full swing. The "spell" the OW cast over him was amazing (still feels like a kick in the gut even though he now is disgusted by her)and took several months to overcome after NC was established. And he was NEVER able to tell her "no" when she wanted to talk.

BTW, those three months when he was still working with the OW and they were still "talking" at work were terrible for me. H was working in Atlanta and DS and I were in Richmond. Every day was torture until he left there. My H had agreed to tell me about any/all contact which he did (or at least most of it). And everytime he did, I was immediately on the phone to OWH to let him know. It cooled the rest of the A off quite a bit. On his last day of work there, even though we had practiced how he would respond when she asked to talk, he could not resist the big good-bye speech. And he only wrote the NC letter 2 days after that.

I agree it will be very difficult for you when he goes back to work. I hope it will not be for long and that you will find a way to get through it.

Prayers and best wishes.

AM

Don't EVER settle...

True recovery only comes from not settling.

You need compensation not a settlement.

He's been busted and now he is being broken.

Still praying for both of you.

Mark

I might have missed it but has Chewie even admitted yet the PA?

Nope. Still sticking to EA story, despite flunking that very question on the poly.

*sigh*

Until he confesses this is all a waste of time, hon. You'll move somewhere with the same crippled divorce and unanswered questions.

(((Chrys))),

I'm sorry the meeting with the pastor was disappointing.

Be sure to call the medical boards in each state you are considering and inquire what the process is and timeframe to get a medical license in their particular state.

LC

Mike,
I think he enjoys the sport of "Death by 1000 Cuts" at least as much as your W.

Chrys....please email me - cinderella4mb

you can find me @yahoo.com

Cinders, email sent.

Thanks. Can't check personal email from work. Locks up my computer. Will check it tonight or this weekend.

I've been stopping myself from posting to you, because I fear that what I am thinking will be too painful and make it 1001 cuts.

Let me know when you feel ready, if ever.

Sorry, Chrys, but that is meaningless if he is not even willing to come clean about a PA.

There has been no change of heart if he is still unwilling to be completely honest. His lack of honesty proves that he is not willing to do whatever it takes.

Are you wiling to settle for a dishonest man going forward? (that is a sincere question that you need to examine...you may decide you are...it's your choice, Chrys.)

Honesty and openness is a FIRST step, and not an optional one.
A marriage built (or REBUILT) on lies (or just one lie) is standing on shifting sand and will crash again one day.



All the actions I required of tst were actions that would demonstrate whether tst's HEART had been DEALT WITH. I wasn't looking so much at THE actions themselves, but what the actions demonstrated about his insides. If he had done everything else on my list, but refused to be honest, I would have known that the HEART CHANGE was still not there.


I know that this is all just about unbearable for you, and I'm sorry. There is nothing more I would like to do than post a warm fuzzy post to you about how great Chewie is doing. But the bottom line is....he's still a liar.

{{{{{{{{{Chrys}}}}}}}}

Chrys - I have to agree - A lie also leaves Chewie open to blackmail by the OW - if he won't come clean about the whole thing now, she's got leverage on him for future contact or she'll come clean to you!

OW want the destruction of marriage. Lies leave seeds for OW to break the bedrock that marriage is built on.

Chewie failed the lie detector test on several related questions. This is not a mistake. He's not a victim. He's a liar and one that will move you away, snow you again into thinking he's "Honest John". And he doesn't have anymore chances to blow but he will if the lie isn't dealt with NOW.

I would proceed with Plan B or whatever you need to do but do not move forward with this man until he's humbled to the dust - and not an actor playing the part of a man humbled to the dust.

Chrys (and Chewie),

In 9 years on this forum, the simplest line was posted to me yesterday on this issue by Aussie:

"You want me to forgive? Okay, what exactly am I forgiving?"

Once my WW opened up the other day, the ability to forgive her appeared on the horizon like a tiny wagon of posies and daisies rolling toward god that is gay.

Moving, NC letter, you both are delusional. We all knew Chewie was lying -- then he failed a poly to underscore it!

This isn't some minor detail, it is the single core of an infidelity issue.

This is exactly what happened to GreenMile. His OW kept his nasty emails and IM's and used them to threaten him for at least a year and a half. He was trapped. Now that does not give him an excuse but it did happen. She still has them and has threatened to send them to our kids, everyone he works with and me. We have defused her by preempting that and he has told the kids and the people she might have been able to find. The only thing that will stop Chewies OW is for him to come clean and preempt it. It stopped GM's OW, at least for the last 3 months.

And the saddest thing is that unless Chewie undergoes this humbling for real and comes clean about everything, when OW does pull a stunt - after the cost/expense and trouble of a move to save the marriage, and he gets caught he's going to say OW lies! He's a victim. Again. Misunderstood.

If it weren't for TST, I wouldn't believe there is a chance for Chewie to do this. But he has to go through the PAIN that TST went through. Surrender EVERYTHING. Including the lie! And leave himself wide open to the mercy or justice of Chrys that he knows he doesn't deserve!

I'm waiting to see evidence of that true humbling, Chewie - I've seen it so I know what to look for, and you're not putting out yet. So I'm waiting!

If it were not for TST and the advice of SMB regarding how they did it I would not believe GreenMile could do it either. Now I think he has but then it is early and will take a good long while before I ever feel safe enough to really trust him, if ever. Still, TST has been an excellent role model for anyone needing to do this and an excellent teacher as well.

I believe I have seen that surrender here. Still I will remain guarded as I think we all should, Chrysalis especially now.

Bandaids do not work, there has to be a ripping open of the soul. Then you can dress the wound.

Post whatever you think, no one else seems to mind!

No, I decline.

Chrys,

You've been on this side of the message board. You know what it's like to have your own heart ache for someone else here.

That's what we ALL ARE FEELING FOR YOU. I'm sure that everyone here would prefer to say to you, "WOW! Chewie is gettin' it. He's finally seen the light."

But no one here's going to lie to you. We have no reason to.

And believe it or not, we don't want to see you hurting anymore than you already are.

We aren't the big bad bullies trying to rain on your parade. We all see a MAJOR

Not a minor one.

Would you prefer we ignore it and watch you set yourself up for more heartache?

If you are willing to spend the rest of your life with someone who is lying to you, it IS your choice. But you aren't going into this blind, yanno?

???

I am puzzled. Did I offend?

Not at all. I don't want to offend you.

Even the 2 x 4s have not offended me. I don't see anybody here posting in bad faith to me, which is a bit different than what I have observed in my marriage in recent years.

What really puzzles me, Chrys, is why, just as people were beginning to nail Chewie, you told him that he did not need to go to his thread, where he was being called to account.

His trick of having used MB concepts for years was recognised. His attempt to anticipate the polygraph failure was anticipated. However, you excused him from coming here just after he failed the test, and he has not been back.

Once again, you are taking MB and recovery seriously and he is letting you do the work. Why are you choosing this situation?

Sugar, this brought me up short and I had to think about it, even though I never told Chewie not to come...I just didn't bug him for a day or 2.
He really doesn't want to come here and be beat up but I have asked him to do so anyway. I know he is reading tonight.

Chrysalis,

I have followed bits and pieces of your story. And only bits and pieces b/c is it too disheartening so soon into my own journey. I am very sorry for you.

I understand your loyalty to your H.
What is it with our loyalty? Something so admired should bring us so much pain.
The hardest thing for me in this whole affair business, was shifting my first loyalty from my H to myself. Only after that did I see what I really deserved.

Where ever your path takes you, I wish you well.

Take care.

Thanks for all the comments today. Please forgive me if I don't respond individually-- lots of hours away from the computer today.

I've been thinking a lot today about what I need to do to protect myself, on all kinds of levels. No need for details. A lot of it is just that darned roller coaster, but some of this I need to get clear on.

That's all. Carry on. I am grateful for even those posts that make me uncomfortable.

I'm sorry to say more on this, and I'll stop as soon as you ask me to.

My reading of the contributions to Chewie's thread was that people were not "chastising" him. That makes it sound as if they were essentially telling him off, as they would a child, and doing so to back up your own chastisement.

Well, I think that what is needed from you is something different from chastisement (although he also needs a good slapping for what he has done). I'm not very good at expressing this, but you need a demonstration of his commitment before you agree to stay with him.

You need to know details of the earlier affair and you to know why OW implied that it was not the only one. I'm surprised that SH allowed you to go through counselling with him without insisting that the details were revealed. Dr Harley writes in one of the Q & A columns about how a BW's nightmares would not stop unless she is given details of an affair from years ago. He said something like "you do not know if this woman lives on your street, attends your church or works with your H" and therefore the BW could not know that she was safe from the affair. It was not just so that she would know what she was forgiving; it was so that she could know what possibility of contact still remained.

How can it be right for him to say that he is not going to talk about that affair? Why have you let him have control like that?

For me, his having control over that knowledge, and keeping details of the current affair to himself (like the PA fact) is a demonstration of how he intends to keep control over your marital "recovery". He has not surrendered to you and he (as yet)does not intend to.

You have asked him to read here again, but you do not insist that he posts. You are thus letting him off answering questions that we are prepared to ask even if you are not. His response to those questions will reveal more about his desire to maintain the wall between you and the affair. His refusal to talk shows that he is loyal to his AP, not to you.

His reading here allows him to see the advice being given to you, and enables him to use that advice to his own ends. Indeed, you recognise this; your asking that we do not talk about certain things is because you know he is likely to use that advice against you. He reads here and learns how to talk the talk, but he does not have to post here and either explain his recent past or refuse to explain it, which refusal in itself would speak volumes.

I coped with repeated D Days really badly, Chrys, and the never-ending affair affected my mental health badly. I'm not trying to attack you; I have the utmost sympathy for you. However, with my new-found MB knowledge, I see you looking after your H as you would one of your children had they messed up their own lives. You felt that he had been through a lot on polygraph weekend and you decided not to push him harder. You seem to see that he has not looked at himself clearly for years and is only just now doing so, and the recognition of who he has become is too much for him.

Well, of course I don't live with him, but what I saw on his thread was a man playing a game with you and the board. He read there to find out exactly what to say so that he could say it. He did that years ago when you counselled with SH. When I revived your threads I was not merely bumping them; I was posting to Chewie on them to ask him about his actions at the time you were going through counselling. I asked him questions on each of those threads and you stopped him from answering them (not that he ever answered any). It seemed to be enough for him to have read them, and it seems to be enough for him to be merely reading this active thread again.

Why is reading and acting guilty enough for you? You might say that he has done more than that; he has agreed to move. Well, look at the way he talks about that. My H fell over himself (actually kneeled at my feet ) the day he told me that he would go to work the next day and refuse to travel ever again (after D Day no. 257). I never asked him for this; he volunteered it because he had had enough of letting the affair ruin our marriage. Chewie says in resentful tones, "I suppose I'll have to move to someone cold and dark".

Why are you letting him off with this?

Tell me to shut up and I will. It is not my intention to hurt you. Best wishes to you, Chrys.

I apologise, Chrys; I made many assumptions in my post. I sometimes think I am the queen of dealing with never-ending affairs, when in reality I have a lot to learn.

Chrys,

I wanted to check on you and see how you are doing.

LC

Sugar, Thank you. No apology needed.

LC,
It's hard. Chewie has gone back to work this morning and was planning on telling work that he plans to leave within a few months. He is increasingly sad. I was not ready for him to go back to work, though I thought I was. He's left his cell phone and pager with me but we all know that means exactly nothing. I thought of something else I need to ask him about and now it is really bothering me.

The school situation for DS14 could be very difficult. We are trying to check out schools early in the process but not many districts are foaming at the mouth to get a very expensive special ed student added to their rolls. I've worked really hard for years to maintain great relationships with school, etc. and help them keep costs down-- and they have been generally honourable in working to meet his educational needs. But I have heard a million horror stories about life in the real world. I expect when the time comes I can call in a few favors and get the district to make some calls for me. But this is not likely to be an easy process.

Anyway, DS14 is home for the holiday and Chewie asked me to bring his lunch by later, which I will do.

I am all over the map on what I am going to do. The only thing I really want to do right now is watch and see what Chewie actually does and try to be emotionally prepared for anything.

You can also contact special education attorneys within communities that you are considering. They tend to have their own ideas regarding which school districts within a community are more willing to work with parents. There are school districts in my community that have a reputation for being difficult and ones that are workable. I think that less tends to be known about districts that are further away from metropolitan areas. I am now in a district that is 'out in the sticks.' It is pretty cooperative.

That is a good idea. Thanks. I do have some people I could ask once I have a general direction.

You are welcome. Will you be making these contacts or will your WH be making them?

I will.

Ugh. Got a hang up call from a restricted number on his cell phone. He left it with me so I could answer for job searches. "Dr. ____"s phone." Silence. Click.

Troll.

you can block restricted incoming, hon.

I didn't know that! How?

Well....I know some carriers you can reject calls that don't have an numeric id, or at least have a different ring tone.

Isn't the problem that even after the recent NC letter, OW (it is her) continues to call Chewie, and Chewie does not report this? This is unlikely to be the first time she has called since the letter, yet Chewie has not kept Chrys informed. Chrys only found out by chance because she and Chewie swapped phones.

Is Chewie is keeping contact a secret, and if so, what does this mean?

It was a hang up not a confirmed call.

This is inaccurate. He handed his phone to me. I kept mine.

Chrys - Have you talked to the Harleys yet? I feel very uncomfortable with you doing ANYTHING right now. This was a huge shock, in fact, I'm still stunned and I don't even know you.

I doubt that it was the OW that called. If hubby was still wayward, he would have found a way to warn her somehow that you had his phone. That is just what they do.

I think she must be laying low right now.

You need some time to start recovering YOURSELF before you even attempt to work on the marriage.

Blessings to you and your family. Stay strong. They need you.

I agree....haven't we ALL hung up on someone when we've dialed the wrong #??

Believer, I have not talked to the Harleys yet. I am not making any decisions yet. I am watching to see what Chewie does.

I do know that Chewie NEEDS to experience some major consequences. Whether leaving behind his nice comfortable station in life and taking a huge financial hit will be enough, I don't know.

He is proceeding apace with the job search and has some nibbles right away. He did tell work he was planning on leaving within a few months. He seems to want me to bring him lunch every day. He's called me every couple of hours. I was hardly a sparkling conversationalist to begin with; it's worse now.

I think we are going to tell DS24 tonight that we are planning to move soon and that he is going to have to find a way to be self-supporting if he wants to stay where he is.

Chrys, while I've never posted to you before, I've been following your story.

I wanted to give you just a mere 2 cents. Here it goes. You seem to be letting your WH drive this bus. You keep saying you haven't made any decisions yet (which is good!) but you're not saying what you've done for YOU today. From where I'm sitting, it really looks like life in your house is ON HOLD - waiting for your WH to "make his move". Yes, surely he's got major work to do but so do you, with or without him. Why not start with a mani/pedi? How about a girl's night? I don't know...something. Anything! I know you're hurting & you're waiting to see what he does next & you are ever cautious. The thing is, I think he knows it too.

Oh, I forgot about your older son. What is he up to? Is he going to school?

Does he know the truth as to why you are moving?

I'm sorry. Obviously I completely misunderstood Chrys's post. I thought that you were suggesting OW yourself, Chrys. I thought that was why you posted about a "hang up" call on this thread.

If I dial a wrong number, I do not just hang up, as JoJo suggests we all do. I check with the respondent that I indeed dialled the wrong number and then apologise for doing so.

Chrys, why did you post about this on this board, on this thread, if OW was not your suspicion?

Also, I know he gave you his phone; you said that clearly. So yes, he would have warned OW about this as soon as he could have, but he might not have had time before the call came in. And, her number is unidentified so he might have hoped that Chrys would assume a wrong number. (Is a "restricted number" one that is unidentified?)

I'm just explaining my post. I accept that my interpretation was wrong and once again I apologise.

Oh, I see. It was the word "swapped" that you were correcting. You had both yours and Chewie's phones.

That seems to me to be a spectacular case of missing the point, but I'll leave it at that.

Some waywards have gone so far as to get a second, secret cell phone.

Sugar....Excuse the word "ALL"....lets put it this way, since you are so nit-picky with wording......

There are a LOT of people that do just hang up when reaching the wrong number! Not everyone, apparently me included, are as socially correct as you are and explain to the answerer that we've dialed the wrong #

Even if he warned OW, it is not a far stretch to imagine that an OW would call anyway just to mess with a BS.

Chrys is not going to find out who made the call, so all of our scenarios mean little.

What matters, Chrys, is that this call caused you to TRIGGER. Did you share this trigger with Chewie (I can't remember if you said you did, sorry)?

If so, how did he help you through this trigger?

I'm being nitpicky again.
Is that what matters? Was your post about how this call caused you to trigger, Chrys? I honestly thought you posted because it seemed that there might be OW games going on, and you wanted to know how people here read the call.

JoJo, I'm really not taking issue with your words. My point was not in the least about whether all, some, most or a few people hang up when they have the wrong number. My point was that this must be someone who regularly phones Chewie, but who hung up when Chrys answered.

It did not occur to me that Chrys would have posted about a simple case of a wrong number on this thread. I can see now that I am making an issue out of nothing.

Whoa! Everybody needs to SLOW DOWN.

First of all, I am not posting everything I think, do, or experience, nor do I intend to. I may post a few sentences of facts about something but some of you are taking that WAY too far in terms of the conclusions you are drawing. In the meantime, I understand you are all posting to me with good intentions and I am trying to weigh your remarks carefully.

Second, I agree with everyone that Chewie has behaved in a way that seems beyond redemption. I told myself he'd be history if this happened. And yet he is acting today like a man who wants to kick his "crack" habit. The man before the affairs was a fine man. What do you do with a formerly-fine man who develops a crack habit? Far easier to kick him to the curb if you haven't been with him 30 years and raised children together.

Do I get what a liar he has become? Absolutely. Do I understand the risk that this is all one more lie? Yup. But why take a huge pay cut and leave a nice life behind just to game your spouse? I am going to let this play out a little bit to see what happens. If he stalls on the job search or pushes too hard to stay a little too close, I can leave at any time.

Most of our waywards don't come quickly back to lives of decency and honor. tst experienced a dramatic turnaround, but not every conversion experience is like the road to Damascus.

Phone....I did not say, but I do believe it to have been OW. I expected that she would attempt contact on Monday. I cannot stop her calling the office nor can I stop Chewie from picking up the phone. If he does that I expect I'll see attitude shifts and a slowdown on the job search. He gave me the phone so he would not pick it up and so that I would not worry. He's had affair phones before, but there was none in his office as of a week ago. I found plenty of other hurtful stuff, but not a phone this time. Yeah, he could already have a new one. Yeah, there could already be another email account. It will show up eventually if it's there. He could be doing absolutely anything and I have no control over that at all. All I can control is myself and my choices and they are neither simple nor straightforward. My choices carry on one hand the risk of being lied to again, and on the other hand the destruction of my family. Harley acknowledges that the BS has no good choices. I'm right there in that camp.

I am not assuming he is for real. Nor am I assuming this is another lie and smokescreen to drag it out a little longer. He's got a bad problem and it has destroyed us. I'm looking for a way to the maximum healing possible.

Kids-- they do not know. I am not telling them yet. We talked with DS24 and he wanted to know why, but we together declined to tell him. We told him we had strong reasons but they would remain our own.

smb-- trigger. That was pretty accurate. It did throw me off for the rest of the day. We talked about it but he couldn't unring the phone. He told me I was welcome to stay with him in the office all afternoon. I chose not to. The incident just emphasized that I cannot remain married and continue to live in this community. That is the one thing I know for sure. He asks me what he can do and I tell him to get me out of here as soon as possible. Until we leave I don't think there will be huge progress.

Chewie has had one phone interview already and they have scheduled a second phone interview with the CEO. That place is several hundred miles away. He's also talking to other places. He's identified clearly what he is looking for and that is helping speed it along.

That's all for now.

Thank you for clarifying this. I did not imagine that you would post about a call that you thought was simply a wrong number.

Chrys, is it possible for him to change his cell #, or would OW just be able to get a hold of it again?

I assumed that was the case, but wanted to ask for clarity.

You're a good mom, and only you can determine when and if to tell your own kids the truth.

FWIW, I learned about my parents infidelity from others and had to piece all the facts together over a period of time. It devistated our relationships. Sadly, I still don't trust my parents to tell me the truth.



I'm sure Chewie wishes those triggers would not be there, but we all know they will be. I know that I hate it when SMB triggers, it's a reminder of how deeply "I" wounded her. But it offers me a chance to show her that I'm right there for her.
It sounds to me like he offered to help you through the moment and attempted to give you a way to be rest assured that he was on board and understood your pain and fear, and wanted to help you through it.

I pray Chewie continues down the path of understanding.

Why?

Chrysalis, I am new to the marriage builders site and have never posted to you before. I've recently read through your story and I just wanted to let you know that I admire your strength and courage to fight for your marriage. I have never been in your situation but realize it has to be tough on both you and your family. I don't have many encouraging words, but just wanted to let you know you are in my thoughts and prayers. I wish the best for you and Chewie. I hope you guys are able to move to a new place soon so that your marriage can begin to heal properly. He put you in a tough position by messing up again. I hope he realizes his mistake and works quickly to make things right. You had every right to walk away from him, but you didn't. He is lucky he has this chance to correct his mistake. He needs to realize what a devoted and loving wife he has in you. I hope everything works out for you. You deserve it.

At the risk of assuming too much (as Chrys suggests some of us are doing) and of being annoying, I'm going to go back to this call.

Isn't a suspected call from OW more than a trigger? I thought that term was used when something reminds the BS of the dead affair. That is what tst seems to be describing.

I'm questioning what this suspected call might say about the possible current affair.

It might be, Chrys, that you have raised this issue with Chewie and do not wish to post details here. I only keep on about the possibility of the affair not being dead because I have been through this horror and feel empathy with you.

Just because the OW may have called does not mean there is a current affair.

I know i my sitch when my H was home with his illness (which was almost 5 months) i had his cell phone the entire time and the FOW KNEW i had the cell phone because it was annouced at his work that he was unreachable but i had his phone in case any work calls came through so i could let them know to contact my H's boss.

The FOW called me at least three times a week and made up some reason why she was calling. I am sure that it really was she was just hoping that my H would answer the phone and she was also just trying to cause trouble with us.

Although there are other explanations, we all know it's quite possible that the call was from OW. Obviously, Chrys thought it was a likely possibility, and I think she already knew the other plausible explanations when she posted (they are kind of no brainers).

So I looked for the deeper meaning behind her post. What help was she looking for. That is why I brought up triggers. (I have no idea why I am explaining myself to you )


Since Chrys is still in the recovery game, triggers and Chewie's response to them matters greatly.

Discussing the call at this point is pretty useless.

Chrys has no way to find out who called, and she already realizes it could have very possibly been OW.

She knows she is married to a liar whose word cannot be trusted.

She already knows that the affair could be underground. I don't think she's living in denial about that.

So what point ARE you trying to make by coming back to this call again?

Just that the affair could have gone underground.

I thought Chrys posted about it because it was important, and I thought one possible aspect of its importance had not been addressed. The trigger aspect had been, but not the possible continuance.

I'll stop now!

To me, innocent or not, the call would be VERY symbolic to what she (me) are going to have to go through living in the same community, especially in a "recovery" without honesty.

Particularly when WS starts to inevitably slack off on EPs. Is he late from work? Why was he on the computer? How come the cell phone bill mysteriously didn't show this month? Was that OP's car at the same store? Is it really poker night with the boys? Why does he smell like cigarette smoke? Why DOESN'T he smell like cigarette smoke?

...ad nauseam...all innocent, except in the BS's heart...

My WW wants to go out for drinks with her cousin Sat nite. Kinda clear I wasn't welcome. I have a decent suspicion she used the cousin as a smoke screen for seeing OM in the past. Do I pick a fight, which I know it would cause? Or do I have to let her off the chain?

You two should implant a tiny device to keep track of your waywards. Like cows have or pets have.

Microchip them.

If you see any strange "up and down" motions then you know your wayward is not just "dancing".....

I would not trust a word a wayward says to you. Not one word.

I think you are a bit confused about triggers.

Any traumatic event in a person's life can create triggers.

D-day is the traumatic event for a BS. More trauma is suffered from the rewriting of history, the fog, more D-days, false recoveries, etc. An affair being dead or alive is irrelevent to whether a BS triggers.

IT WAS ME THAT CALLED...to :twobyfour: Chewie. j/k

SC, I was of the same mind as you with the "swapped" phones. Hang ups or unknown callers are more of any issue of trust or lack thereof more than a trigger.

Mike - Drinks with a cousin? You could let WW go and then verify that she is with who and where she says. It could be a test depending how you look at it.

Depends on what you are willing to live with.

Your wife is chained because she is untrustworthy. She has done NOTHING to earn an ounce of trust.

If my dog has demonstrated he will not wonder from our yard no matter what tempting animal walks by, I don't need to chain him, do I? Your wife resents the chain, but hasn't earned being off of it.

Sorry Mike.

But what's she going to do about?

She can ask Chewie. We all know what his answer will be. But since he's a proven cold liar, his answer won't mean squat.

Chrys, I can't remember....Chewie did change his cell number right?





Your wife was still lying to you but a week ago.

Even IF you verify who she's with, you have no idea what they are chatting about. If you suspect this person enabled the affair, your wife has no business being out with her/him (?) This person could very well feed her fog. She is clearly still in withdrawal.

I don't know. I agree his answer doesn't mean squat because the suspicion is there no matter what.


Agreed. I'll take it to Mike's thread. Now back to Chewie... :twobyfour:

You're relentless with that :twobyfour: :twobyfour: :twobyfour:

That's the way I see it, too.

A trigger, to me, is a reminder. Like going by a restaurant you know they used for a trysting place.
Or hearing a song on the radio that was popular at D-day and reminds you of how you felt then.

The phone call is not a reminder, it's a red flag regarding possible continued contact. It's not quite the indicator as seeing them chatting on a park bench, but it's a lot more than a trigger, IMO.

Granted, it was a one-way action. It was someone else calling Chewie. Even if we *knew* it was OW, we don't know if Chewie is reciprocating. It could just be OW being a pain in the patootie, or it could have been a wrong number.

It's suspicious enough that it warrants noting, that's for sure.

OK, this is my LAST WORD about the phone call.

I expected it.

Chewie had taken a week off work and been completely unavailable to her after his NC letter.

It was his first day back. I had his cell phone, his private line had been removed, and he was not picking up his inside line unless the call was announced (at least that is what he says.....)

Of course she would call and hang up when I answered. The time of day-- lunch-ish-- just makes that belief more reasonable.

I posted about it because I wanted a safe place to call OW a troll. That is ALL. I did not need opinions, advice or commentary about the risks to me of continued contact.

I get all that. I get that Chewie has lied until he probably half believes his own stuff. He's not recognizable to me.

I still think OW is a troll. My wish for her is that she wakes up tomorrow with a disfiguring but not-fatal illness, a permanent case of laryngitis, and an overnight gain of 50 pounds-- and that her husband loves her anyway.

Is it OK for me to say that without being analyzed to death?

I can't fix Chewie. He may or may not be genuine in his apparent efforts to fix his own stuff.

LOL I'm trying to cut back. At least it was only one smiley.

Sorry if you feel that way Chrys. Not trying to beat a dead horse here. Posting vs speaking with others IRL may come across as piling on because of the method of communication.

I agree that the call could be a red flag; but the man failed a freakin' lie detector test. Are any more red flags really needed?

All we can do is speculate about the call. Chrys can't verify who it was, so the discussion seems moot, other than to point out the red flag that Chrys already knows is there.

How Chewie responds to a trigger can be a red flag as well.

Chrys is still choosing to stay in this marriage, so far. So she notes red flags and eventually maybe there will be enough that she decides to dump him. Maybe not.


We had a few hang up calls that triggered me. They weren't OW, but they were a trigger.

So, I'll agree that the mystery call is a possible red flag...and certainly a trigger (causing a flooding of adrenaline that leads to the typical trigger symptoms all caused because of a traumatic event--or multiple ones).

I think Chrys already agreed with both of those, too.

I'm done I was posting at the same time as you Chrys, so I didn't see your last post until now. Sorry. (I wish there was a smiley with a mouth zipper that I could insert here)

If you're going to pile on, it would be way more fun for me if it were all about the trollishness of OW.

I'm all in on that one. Where shall we start?


We'll probably get edited though. They never let us have any fun around here.

Chrys,

I suspect it was probably her and for the same reason you suspect it probably was her.

And if she is anything like my FWHs FOW then this will not be the last call from her either.

Like i stated earlier she called me all the time during the time my H was out of work.

Only she did not hang up, i do not know if that is better or not because at least i new it was her, this one is taking the cowards way out (why does that suprise me ).

Just TRY not to let her get to you and believe me i know that is easier said than done.

ME TOO....ME TOO.....

Of course, you MAY just GET your wish..... (Not still beaming from yesterdays FYI.... )

Of course, now I just wonder if I enjoyed my info TOO MUCH that it may come back and BITE ME......


On a side note, Chrys,

You had a very good and strong post back there. GOOD FOR YOU!!! I hope you are keeping your strenght up and letting Chewster know YOU MEAN BUSINESS...... to you....

not2fun

Sorry Chrys, t/j.

Not,

I've taught my children it's never a good idea to celebrate someone else's misfortune. It usually brings the karma train right back at you. I'm not saying a person can't acknowledge it, I just personally wouldn't celebrate it.

end t/j

LC

That's why it's only really sweet if her husband still loves her, and that she GETS IT.

You don't need to twist my arm on that one.

Add some narled and fungus ridden toe nails.

It's been 30 days since I posted an update about my stuff.

Not much new to report. We are working on moving and are sorting out the pros and cons of several locations, and are starting the process of site visits. Interestingly, our first site visit is to someplace cold and dark. Chewie is finding that funny but challenging in a not-bad way. Other locations we are looking at are nearer. It is going to probably come down to what we think we can work out with the schools in whatever location to take care of DS15's needs. There are other factors, such as proximity to family, and how far is "far enough" to move, and cost of living changes that will help absorb a nasty pay cut, but schools are the most huge consideration.

I spend every lunch hour with Chewie and he usually works on job stuff during that time. He is home early. There is no unaccounted for time. It will, however, not be an easy road back to finding good feelings in the M. I'm still pretty much a train wreck most days.

I'm looking into some personal recovery efforts that take Chewie out of the equation. By that don't mean "get rid of Chewie." What I mean is that I am trying to move in a direction of healing myself without regard to what he does or doesn't do-- to find a way forward into a happy life no matter what I decide. That's all pretty vague, but that's OK, I think I know what I mean! I've spent the last 2 months just wanting to die and when I didn't want to die, wanting to rage and hurt Chewie. That is getting old, even to narcissistic me. So now I am trying to look at how to get healthy no matter what.

OW made a nasty attempt at contact the other day -- really just a lashing out to the "secret" email account-- followed by an apology to me to the same email account the next day. It was really hurtful but in retrospect provides some evidence of NC holding. Whatever. Chewie is not necessarily foggy but I suspect in some withdrawal. Not a whole lot of spontaneous warm fuzzies.

I ask him why he wants to stay. I always get the same answer. "I love you, we have had a good life together, and we can have a good life again." Maybe, but not until we have moved away from here. Right now, I'm thinking cold, dark and far away beats warm, sunny, and still close to relatives, but I could be wrong.

One continued sore spot is the area of spirituality. Chewie continues to attend church with me but he does not buy in and is not interested in returning to the beliefs he formerly held. I simply don't know what to do with that. On the bright side, DS15 asked yesterday to go to church this sunday-- we missed the last 2 weeks due to daylight savings (oops) and my being out of town last weekend. Turns out one of the teachers at school is in the bell choir and told him there would be bells this week, so he wants to go.

That's all I can think of for now.

({{{{{Chrysalis}}}}}}}
I've never posted to you but I think of you and prayer for you daily. Make sure that you take care of you.

God speed

JoJo

That is good to hear. *hugs* and yay that things are progressing with you and your M

Chrys, baby steps. It looks like baby steps.

Regarding the spiritual issues. Do you think guilt, sin, repentance, and forgiveness issues could be playing into Chewie's reluctance to re-embrace his previous beliefs? Maybe this is a way to avoid confronting some of his 'stuff'.

I do think that, CInders. I just don't know of any way to facilitate a positive change.

He probably deleted it so you couldn't keep looking at it. He probably didn't want to see it anymore either. My WS would delete it and then tell me that I imagined the whole thing. That it never existed. That he didn't know what I was talking about. lol

Chrys,

Hoping that all is going well for you. I don't get much time to post, but I'm following along....

Chrys,

Some of the phone providers will say where the phone calls are coming from.

In my sitch OW used the *67 to hide her phone number on the incoming calls, but when I analyzed the calls I saw the area she lived in and how many calls. It won't tell you the specific number, just the area.

My WH did the reverse when he called her. That is until I confronted him with the information and they went underground further.

We use verizon wireless.

Good luck,

nab

There are no current phone issues. The recent attempt at contact was through email.

I have not been feeling good about things the last few days. There's nothing specific, just a general sense that Chewie hasn't hit bottom with this thing. He was a little snarly to me a couple of times, but that's not it. He just seems like a wayward alien to me lately. I look at him and have no idea what is real and what isn't.

It's that he's lied so much, for so long, that I have no way of knowing the truth any more. He could tell me anything and what he says means absolutely nothing. And I can't live my life that way.

SAA talks about marriages being saved in spite of lengthy affairs and a general lack of remorse on the part of the wayward. In SAA there is no real threshold requirement for recovery except NC and a willingness to work to avoid LBs and fill each other's love banks. Am I right about that?

I asked Chewie to return to the MB home study course with me and either pick up where we left off or start over. He agreed but wasn't happy about it. That is part of my discontent.

He's home more than ever. Good grief, he walked in before 6 pm last night! I have not seen that from him, ever.

I don't know what the problem is.

(fret, bother, itch....)

With all you have been through you could not help but be a little twitchy! I know I am.

Once they are known for lying easily and frequently it gets real hard to believe them.

I hope your heart is feeling a little better. I think about you a lot and was a bit worried but figured you went off board to solve some problems. Whatever, I am glad you are back. Sending hugs.(((((hugs)))))

Personally, I think some people are just able to live without a true expression of remorse from their WS. I can't and I don't get it, but some people can do it.

Have you read the 5 Love Languages book about the languages of apology? Maybe it would help you understand the feelings you are having. I can't remember the 5 languages of apology right off the bat, but I know that the language that I need is Restitution. If a person can not speak our apology language, we will NEVER believe they are sorry.

I actually read this during my H's A. It was when I was trying desperately to figure out what was wrong while he kept telling me NOTHING was wrong.

Hope this might be helpful.

Blessings,

Thanks, guys. sss, I saw your posts today. Hugs to you. W2LE, good idea bout that book. I saw a synopsis of the apology languages but could never identify mine. I just want it to be REAL, darn it!

Hello to you all before the weekend.

I have settled down quite a bit lately. I am focusing on my own recovery, emotional and spiritual, and just trying to keep my side of the street clean. I still don't know how this will all turn out, but that's OK for right now.

This weekend we are going to someplace about as different from Southern California as you could imagine. Chewie has a job interview and I am interviewing the schools. We have never been there (well I was in that state briefly once or twice.) We are both anticipating the cold with some anxiety.

I would appreciate prayers for wisdom in all this! This place is pulling out all the stops to welcome us, which is a little daunting.

We are getting along OK with no interpersonal drama and even some good vibes. DS15 is not doing too well, however. This is the time of year his condition tends to kick up and he is suspended from school this week (and quite sad and embarrassed.) His recent instability makes the school interview even more important.

I really wonder what I am going to do if a move can't be worked out soon. We are patching together a reasonable but very short term safety plan. It isn't acceptable in the long run-- not after so many false recoveries with OW in close proximity. He can't forever avoid meetings at the office where OW now works, for example. We have to get away from here.

And I am really afraid sometimes that it won't be possible.

Following your thread, Chrys, and praying for your progress.

Know that you ARE being guided to a place where you can heal. Where that place is hasn't been revealed yet, but it will come.

Till then, I wish you comfort wherever you can find it.

RHW

Chrysalis

and theres a lot to be said about that. Dont underrate your actions right now and how they are helping you.

I dont know whether to laugh or be sympathetic about this. I do think you are going to find the cold a real shock judging from seeing you shiver in yempertures I thoughts were just a bit cool

Always

RHW and Lil, Thanks.

Yes, I know the cold will be a shock. But Lil, it was only 50ish that night you saw me shiver! My thinned-out desert blood felt it greatly!

Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

30 degrees F this morning when I got up to milk.

If I converted that correctly it was -2 C and I shivered.

Not to worry. You have already adapted to things far more significant than temperature...

Curses, foiled again.

Chewie and I got on the plane to cold, dark places and got to the city Saturday (a 2.5 hour drive from the rural community where we were headed) and took a walk and got a bite to eat and then my cell phone rang. I had to get a flight back on an emergency basis to deal with something kid-related. So I never made it to the community.

Chewie went to interviews, etc as planned and did not come up with any conclusions except that he could live there if I absolutely loved it.

But I haven't seen it.

I am furious, feeling robbed again by other people's insanity. I definitely was needed to deal with the situation at home but it should never have happened.

I had vague hopes that we would either fall in love with this community and work together on building a new life there, or mutually agree that it wasn't the right place.

I have no closure and can't stand much more in the way of setbacks.

Because of what happened this weekend with kids, it is going to be more difficult than ever for both of us to go look at a new place together, unless we take DS 15 with us.

So I have no idea how to navigate this any more.

We have another look-see at another place in 2 weeks, but that is just an afternoon out. It is a place I feel may be too close and that does not have much in the way of services for DS15, but I will try to set up something with the schools anyway.

Anyway, nothing good to report here. I spent the weekend flooded with negative emotions while Chewie was off being wined, dined, and courted.

Hi, Chrysalis.

Hope you're doing okay.

-L4

L4,
Hi, and thanks. This will be a long, rambly response!

I am sitting in a Panera Bread using free wi-fi for a few hours while Chewie does his interview. It is nearly 100 degrees and I would rather be hiding out in here than out there! They are taking us out to dinner later and I am trying to stay decent looking and smelling! LOL!

Cold, dark place still wants Chewie and they are helping me via telephone to learn what I can about school accommodations and autism services for DS15. I overnighted a big box to them this morning of evaluations & reports. We will probably have a conference call within a few days. If that checks out, I will go by myself to that community to see if I think it will work. Not the way I wanted to do things, but it's what I've got to work with.

We talked to the schools in the nearer place this morning; I gave them the same fancy notebook I'd prepared about DS15 (they were extremely impressed and wanted to use it as a model!) and they are going to have me back to look at a couple of programs in this area within a week or two.

We are down to a decision time and still don't have enough information to go on. In order to be in a new school for the fall, we need to know where it is going to be by the end of May.

Chewie brightens up considerably in the hot, sunny place. But doesn't want to go where it would be undesirable for DS15. I could do without the heat, but I love the mountains and I love LA. There would be some major advantages to remaining in CA (Favorable services for Ds 15, close to where DS25 wants to be, and favorable divorce laws should I decide that way) and some major advantages to staying in the greater LA area, but can I tolerate being only a 90 minute drive from OW? I don't know yet.

Advantages to the cold dark place are financial and the kinder social atmosphere, plus it would be completely new for both of us. A level playing field, no real drop in living standard near term and probably improvements long term, and new places to learn and grow to love.

In the meantime, DS15 is having a spring meltdown and has been suspended for several days in th last few weeks. DS25 is also not at his best and may or may not be moving back in with us very soon. DD22 is doing fabulously, just called me to talk her down from her emotional rush after a good "real" audition this morning, and I am going to escape to NY to see her spring show for Mother's Day.

I just had my 55th birthday. It was an awful day. I don't like birthdays anyway, and I really would have liked for Chewie to have figured out a way to make me feel celebrated without my having to dictate to him how to do it. He took the day off and we snarked at each other all day. I was on the verge of demanding a divorce the entire day. I was incredibly triggery and tearful and angry and resentful, and all Chewie could process was "Chrys is furious with me." The next day it was greatly better and we have had some improvement every day since.

The hardest part was knowing that he had gone to some pretty great lengths to do thoughtful things for OW for Christmas this last year, when he and I had agreed to eliminate our gifts in light of the New Zealand trip.

And I received not a single birthday gift.

I don't believe he doesn't get it. He's still a long, long way from putting into the M what he did into the A. And I don't really know what I'm going to do with any of that yet. I think I never realized before this that gifts are an important expression of love to me and that I want to be given them. I also know I've gotten awfully exhausted and resentful over birthdays and holidays, when the burden of "doing" has fallen entirely on me, I don't feel very good at it, and I don't feel particularly appreciated.

That was quite a rant, wasn't it?

I've joined a recovery group for betrayed spouses that has a spiritual emphasis and I think it will be helpful as I work through all of this.

The bottom line...I'm OK, not great. I am not starting any clock on "recovery" unless and until we move. There are things that I need to see Chewie change, and I need to figure out how to convey that to him in a way he understands. I will not begin to believe that the back of the A is broken until we have moved. Life is unsettled.

One scary thing about moving is the old saw...whereever you go, there you are. I'm not talking about Chewie still being Chewie in a new place-- I am talking about me still being me. I'll still be 55 years old, introverted to the point of being a hermit unless I have a niche to fill and a job to do, insecure about my abilities (though rationally I have little reason to be) and my appearance. I'm going to have to figure out how to break out of my shell and put myself out there. When I've done that in the past, I've accomplished some amazing things. If I don't work to change some of my own behaviors, though, I'll still be hurting and unhappy.

That's about all I can think of-- DS25 and DD22 have interrupted me 3-4 times while I was typing this, calling to chat. I've got another hour or so to kill until the dinner meeting.

Wow. I read all 43 pages and I ache for you. (((hugs)))

Thanks. The interview went well and Chewie now has two offers to consider.

I did not get any real sense for how I'd easily fit in to the community yesterday. It would be up to me to figure it out. I think the other place would work a lot harder to draw me in. I think I need to visit the other place pretty soon.

We are having a crisis with DS25, who is relapsing every 2-3 weeks with alcohol. It's not a trivial relapse, either, when it happens. This is really complicating my ability to figure out the move issues. We had told him he could move home but I am thinking I really don't want him living with us-- yet he has no other place to go. I was really not a happy camper last night to come home-- after his having stayed with us several days with no problem, and after I talked to him at 5 pm and things were great-- and find that he was under the influence and his brother had been left to fend for himself and was still up at midnight. I didn't sleep much.

This is just all really hard. I heard in my "betrayed recovery" group that if you decide to attempt to recover your marriage you should expect intense spiritual warfare. While I am not one to go all mysterious over that concept, it does seem that whenever I try to make progress on the move or on my own recovery a giant roadblock appears. There was the issue of being called home from our visit 2 weeks ago to deal with DS25's stuff. The first meeting of my recovery group had only been going 10 minutes when I got an emergency call to go to DS15's school-- and as soon as I got there the emergency evaporated. Yesterday DS25 acted out again.

I just want to be able to figure out my own needs and what to do to get them met without having my ability to do that stolen because of other people's bad behavior. Is that too much to ask? What is wrong here?

When our son was having issues ... we paid for him to stay in a sober living facility for 2 months.

He HATED us for that. But, who cares ! It was the right decision.

And when he got kicked out for a weekend for breaking the rules - we did not rescue him. Hardest thing to do. But he got to his "bottom" a lot quicker once we stopped "catching" him.

DO NOT LET HIM MOVE IN WITH YOU.

He will learn the tough lessons away from home, not in your home.

Wouldn't it be so much easier if we could look into the crystal ball and see how our life will be a year from now based on certain choices?

I don't know what to tell you other then it sounds like you're doing a heck of a job caring for others while in the meantime you're having everything plus the kitchen sink thrown at you. I beg of you to also take care of yourself, Chrysalis. Hard to do with DS15's special needs, but if there is anyway Chewie or a friend or a neighbor can help you with some of your tasks so that you can concentrate on your health -- physical, emotional, and spiritual -- and your M, please take advantage of those who can assist you.

You're in my prayers.

Take care and God bless.

-L4