I am a very typical man/ husband/ father.. I�ve been married 8 years and been together with my wife for quite a bit longer. I provide for my family and always try to do the right thing but I should have sought help to improve my marriage a long time ago.
The main source of fights in the past has been a result of IB and needs not being met. Mostly my wife�s IB got intense after we had children. My needs weren�t being met and she began to exclude me from decisions regarding the children and spending money. She has been a stay at home mom for most of our marriage. My IB or failure to meet the need for family commitment was mostly not participating in activities which were planned but I had no say in. I also had some anger and resentment for my needs not being met which fueled most of our fights and my desire to withdraw.
My wife is now in stage 3 of being a bitter and quarrelsome wife. She is horribly abusive to me now all the time.. making demands, telling me how to do things, telling me she doesn�t want me around, rolling her eyes, etc.. She is completely rude and obnoxious to me all the time but won�t talk about why she is so angry. She sleeps in the guest room.
Several months ago she had an emotional affair. I sought out counseling and engaged in as much snooping as possible for me to confront her with it. She was horribly upset and offended by the snooping and the councilor advised to stop doing it. Although she denied everything.. �this was just a friend� , the emotional affair through text messages and frequent phone calls seemed to stop. Our relationship began to improve. She seemed to appreciate changes that I had made to meet her needs but she didn�t take much interest in meeting my needs much.. maybe only a little.
A month or so ago, this came up in counseling again because the contact with the other individual hadn�t stopped completely. My wife seemed to still think that she did nothing wrong and I had no right to ask her to stop contacting this �friend� nor any friends. She was horribly upset and angry over this discussion and her bitterness and quarrelsome behavior intensified greatly along with her moving back into the guest room. The councilor also recommended to me privately once and in front of her once that I divorce her. I have since found a new councilor but she refuses now to attend.
It doesn�t seem like separating is an option legally and because it would mean leaving my children. My key question is what do I do now? Will her anger ever go away? Is it worth sticking this out in hopes that something will change? I�ve been in the �plan A� for several months now. Can she really be angry like this forever?
At times, and typically when the kids are awake, she can be pleasant and we do things together. Once the kids go to bed she turns really mean and nasty. From time to time, I can engage her in pleasant conversation, but she will not go on a date and her mood can change in an instant. Is my marriage worth fighting for? ( I feel like it is because it�s something I can and will do for the sake our children, but will she ever come around?; I feel like she might be having a �mid-life crisis�, or having a personality disorder, or something else that just isn�t right)
My wife is now in stage 3 of being a bitter and quarrelsome wife.
Stage 3?
You may have a quarrelsome wife but why do you describe her as bitter? Bitter for what?
She is horribly abusive to me now all the time...She is completely rude and obnoxious to me all the time... At times, and typically when the kids are awake, she can be pleasant and we do things together. Once the kids go to bed she turns really mean and nasty. From time to time, I can engage her in pleasant conversation
Well which is it? All the time or some time?
Stop wasting your money on MC. After that last counselor I can see why she doesn't want to go anymore...and it is doing more harm anyway so stop wasting your time and money.
Welcome to MB
Welcome to Marriage Builders.
Did you ever expose her emotional affair?
My wife is now in stage 3 of being a bitter and quarrelsome wife.
Stage 3?
He's refering to Dr. Harley's 3 stages of a quarrelsome wife:
How to Deal with a Quarrelsome and Nagging wifeBut, typicalman, your real problem is your wife's emotional affair. She is like a drug addict, and you've been messing with her getting her fix. THAT is why she is quarrelsome. If you expose her affair, and all contact actually ends, you may find that after a good Plan A she is no longer quarrelsome.
So, have you exposed her affair?
Something for you to read:
Exposure 101
From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67
The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.
These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.
Checklist for How Affairs Should End
_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.
_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.
_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.
_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:
_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).
_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).
_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).
_____Spend leisure time together.
_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.
_____Avoid overnight separation.
_____Allow technical accountability.
_____Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.
typicalman,
Seeing a traditional marriage councillor when an affair is going on is about like seeing a flood insurance salesman when your house is burning down.
Nice of the councillor to suggest you stop snooping, it will certainly help him collect more fees in the future since it will help keep the affair going.
Gamma
Her behaviour is because contact hasn't ended. The A is ON and all the frightful behaviour that comes with it.
Men can Plan A up to two years, but counselling is hindering your efforts. Relationship talk does nothing to disrupt the A or make her think kindly of you when it finally does end. Use the time and money to have a nice dinner, or buy her flowers. Far more effective.
Counselling is a complete waste of time anyway, but even MB counselling is pointless while the affair is on going. Like trying to educate a drunk.
You have exposed the A right? Who to?
Some good questions raised:
Is she bitter / abusive all the time..? yes we can have some "normal conversations" and also some time that seems normal with the kids... but, I'm always walking on eggshells.. any little thing can trigger her to unleash her wrath at any time.. that why I am saying "all the time" because I know it's always there under the surface.
The emotional affair does not seem to be the big problem here. it was for a few weeks, but when I exposed it in counseling it seemed to stop. There is only an occasional contact once or twice a month. The problem seems to be that she does not respect our marriage enough to stop completely and she is so bitter and angry she won't give up anything nor negotiate on anything. She does not think that what she did was wrong and is not apologetic. The OM is a lifelong friend of hers but really has nothing to offer other than someone to commiserate with as he can barely support himself and lives 1000's of miles away. I do not feel threatened by the OM at this point. Everything is my fault, so why should she give up anything including another friend?
The real problem is that my wife is bitter and angry and so much so that she will not allow me to actually meet her EN's (other than family commitment and financial support... no intimate EN's) nor will she meet my EN's. She will not work on the marriage or follow a POJA.
What is she so bitter and angry about? I don't know. I know I have engaged in LB's in the past, but I have not been angry, disrespectful, or judgmental in the past 6 months. The only judgmental thing I did was to accuse her of an emotional affair and ask her to stop contact. That caused her to get unimaginably angry and walk out of counseling. She accuses me of having affairs but won�t provide any evidence.. she accuses me of causing her to live somewhere that she does not want to live and be away from her friends and family even though we made the decision together. She basically rewrites all the past as negative and everything is my fault. To me, she seems to be unhappy in life and is putting it on my shoulders because it is my responsibility to make her happy.
I have exposed the A to family & our church... her best friend supports her and told her to accuse me of an affair instead.. so exposing this further will only add more fuel to the fire with her friends and makes plan A all the more difficult. I would think that the A will die out quickly or already has since there is no opportunity for them to see eachother and I am traveling with her now all the time even though it is so hard to be around her. Given that it is long distance, there is a record of everything (phone logs, texts, etc..) so I am somewhat sure that the contact is minimal now.
You do not understand how affairs work.
She is bitter and angry BECAUSE of the affair. It is a drug for her.
You will not be allowed to make lovebank deposits until she is completely cut off from her affair partner. Occasional contact will keep her high on her drug.
Have you exposed her affair to friends and family and clergy?
Given that it is long distance, there is a record of everything (phone logs, texts, etc..) so I am somewhat sure that the contact is minimal now.
You need to make sure that contact is non-existent. Minimal contact is still contact.
I have bought her flowers repeatedly. I have taken her on dates as well. On the first date we went on after the A was exposed.. (she would not go except that the councilor advised her to) she seemed to fall in love with me all over again. We agreed on "date" night.. but then she said that meant once a month and not once a week... and then she got so angry over the request to stop contact with her friend that she will not go on a date now. Her friend (the OM) is a also in the same circle as her other friends.. so to stop seeing him messes up her entire group of friends which is all that she has. I think she got painted into a corner which may be part of the reason she is so angry.
I have exposed the A to family & our church... her best friend supports her and told her to accuse me of an affair instead.. so exposing this further will only add more fuel to the fire with her friends and makes plan A all the more difficult. I would think that the A will die out quickly or already has since there is no opportunity for them to see eachother and I am traveling with her now all the time even though it is so hard to be around her. Given that it is long distance, there is a record of everything (phone logs, texts, etc..) so I am somewhat sure that the contact is minimal now.
Sir, our goal is to save your marriage, not to avoid her anger at all costs. In order for your Plan A to have ant effect, it must involve exposing the affair until you have killed it off. You should not rest until you have run this dirtbag off.
Have you exposed to his family and friends? I would go ready exposure thread and plan a strategic, nuclear exposure. It is your only hope of executing a successful plan a. Otherwise you are spinning your wheels.
I have bought her flowers repeatedly. I have taken her on dates as well. On the first date we went on after the A was exposed.. (she would not go except that the councilor advised her to) she seemed to fall in love with me all over again. We agreed on "date" night.. but then she said that meant once a month and not once a week... and then she got so angry over the request to stop contact with her friend that she will not go on a date now. Her friend (the OM) is a also in the same circle as her other friends.. so to stop seeing him messes up her entire group of friends which is all that she has. I think she got painted into a corner which may be part of the reason she is so angry.
Expose the affair to the entire group of friends. Everyone should know about the affair. Affairs thrive in secrecy, so exposing it haters its death.
This is your best chance at recovery. If you sit by idly, in fear of her anger, your marriage will not make it. Again, our goal is to save your marriage; it is not to avoid her anger at all cost.
She is angry and bitter BECAUSE OF HER AFFAIR. All of your plan a efforts are a wage of time until you kill this affair. As long as the OM is around, her love bank is closed to you.
What is she so bitter and angry about? I don't know. I know I have engaged in LB's in the past
It's an addiction. Every time she has contact with OM her withdrawal from him is undone - in fact she never goes through it because she is always looking forward to the next hit. You have to be disregarded and demonized in this process.
I have exposed the A to family & our church... her best friend supports her and told her to accuse me of an affair instead.. so exposing this further will only add more fuel to the fire with her friends and makes plan A all the more difficult. I would think that the A will die out quickly or already has since there is no opportunity for them to see eachother and I am traveling with her now all the time even though it is so hard to be around her. Given that it is long distance, there is a record of everything (phone logs, texts, etc..) so I am somewhat sure that the contact is minimal now.
But did you expose OM? What have you done to run him off? He should be aware that any contact with your wife will not be overlooked. That you are all over him.
I have bought her flowers repeatedly. I have taken her on dates as well. On the first date we went on after the A was exposed.. (she would not go except that the councilor advised her to) she seemed to fall in love with me all over again. We agreed on "date" night.. but then she said that meant once a month and not once a week... and then she got so angry over the request to stop contact with her friend that she will not go on a date now. Her friend (the OM) is a also in the same circle as her other friends.. so to stop seeing him messes up her entire group of friends which is all that she has. I think she got painted into a corner which may be part of the reason she is so angry.
Her pulling away when she starts to feel something is typical of Plan A. However just persist. The A has an expiration date. You can expect her to be a nightmare throughout until it does - and for some weeks after she has sent him an NC letter and changes her contact details to block him.
I wouldn't even mention PoJA until that day comes. 95pc of affairs end in two years. They are usually with a total loser, but they can survive part time for a while.
I see what Prisca is saying about cuting off contact. I can minimize contract by traveling with her, being there for her to talk to each night, monitoring the phone logs.. but I don't know how to cut it off completely. I would think that this would die out... how can her EM's be met long term with such little contact? I think that I am still the one that she has the oportunity to talk with the most.
My advantage is that I am there for her every day.
My disadvantage is that all the real world problems in life with kids, money, chores, being tired,responsibility etc.. gets associated and blamed on me.
"Minimizing" contact is a useless endeavor and indicates you don't understand what you are dealing with. Would it help if a heroin addict "minimized" his heroin use? I assure you it would not because the addiction would be chronically triggered.
You need to strive to kill her affair if you want this to move forward. Your complacence reflects a lack of caring that she won't soon forget if she ever comes out of the fog.
"
My disadvantage is that all the real world problems in life with kids, money, chores, being tired,responsibility etc.. gets associated and blamed on me."
That is not a disadvantage at all unless you are competing with a fantasy, as you are. The solution is to burst the fantasy.
I think that one thing I can do is to talk to the OM and ask him to stay away. He has never been married and doesn't understand what marriage is all about. He is a lifelong friend and I don't see why he would want to ruin her life.
My biggest fear is that that she will take my kids and leave... they are the number one reason why I would fight for her. I also continue to be miserable due to her emotional and verbal abuse and I just want it to end.
I have exposed the A to family & our church
Did anyone confront her about the affair? How old are your children? Have you confronted OM?
Where are your children when you are traveling with her? How often are these trips?
I would think that the A will die out quickly or already has since there is no opportunity for them to see each other
You said the affair started several months ago so that right there shows your thinking is flawed that it will die out quickly. OPs can be the biggest losers on the planet (even criminals and/or druggies) and a WS will still carry on with them.
I think that one thing I can do is to talk to the OM and ask him to stay away. He has never been married and doesn't understand what marriage is all about. He is a lifelong friend and I don't see why he would want to ruin her life.
Don't ask him. TELL HIM to leave your wife and family alone or its war.
You need to expose to his family and friends immediately.
Also post him on
www.playerblock.com
I have exposed the A to family & our church
Did anyone confront her about the affair? How old are your children? Have you confronted OM?
Where are your children when you are traveling with her? How often are these trips?
I would think that the A will die out quickly or already has since there is no opportunity for them to see each other
You said the affair started several months ago so that right there shows your thinking is flawed that it will die out quickly. OPs can be the biggest losers on the planet (even criminals and/or druggies) and a WS will still carry on with them.
The trips are about 2ce /year and my oldest is 7.
She accuses me of having affairs but won�t provide any evidence..
What makes her suspect that you have had affairs? Do you have opposite sex friends? Do you spend the night away from home?
Generally people do not accuse this out of the blue, they do so because there are circumstances in the relationship that cause them to feel threatened and unprotected. Your attitude that she cannot provide you 'evidence' of this is not a great attitude to have, you should be more concerned that your wife feels threatened and unprotected.
I exposed the affiar to my family but she has not been confronted. A confrentation would be devistating to her. I struggle because with such limited contact, I cannot be 100% sure or even 50% sure she is addicted to this. How can a drug addict be addicted if they only get a very small dose and it's once or twice a month? I'm not saying that this shouldn't end completely, it should.. but how do I unleash the bomb if I'm not 100% sure? How do I know this is not a mid-life crisis? A transference of anger from her childhood onto me? or anything else? How can I find out for sure if this is really the problem?
You need to expose the affair far and wide and EXPOSE to her affair partners family and friends.
A confrentation would be devistating to her.
Then what's the point of exposure?
She wouldn't be devastated. She would be pissed off AT YOU. You are the typical conflict avoider. WW is not having a midlife crisis...people of all ages can cheat, be thoughtless, angry etc.
Look, if you want to keep walking on eggshells because you are afraid of your wife that is certainly your choice but more of her anger is what you are signing up for and it certainly isn't healthy for your children to see this dynamic in their home.
She accuses me of having affairs but won�t provide any evidence..
What makes her suspect that you have had affairs? Do you have opposite sex friends? Do you spend the night away from home?
Generally people do not accuse this out of the blue, they do so because there are circumstances in the relationship that cause them to feel threatened and unprotected. Your attitude that she cannot provide you 'evidence' of this is not a great attitude to have, you should be more concerned that your wife feels threatened and unprotected.
x 2
Is there more to this?
With regard to her accusing me of an affair...
I have offered for her to see my bank records, email, text, etc.. anything that she wants. She quickly drops it. The reason is that she probably doesn't want me looking at her stuff.
She should be suspicious of me having an affair because she doesn't meet my EN's and I leave the home for work each day while she is at home. I have more opportunity. The truth is that there is no evidence of it and she is not interested in me being more transparent.
She does seem to not want to allow me talk to any other women even though I do not have friends of the opposite sex. I am home every single night and I get home as quickly as possible to spend time with my family.
Her stupid friend told her to accuse me of an affair. That�s all their is to it. It's just a smoke screen for her.. or her mind has convinced her of an alternate reality.
I think that one thing I can do is to talk to the OM and ask him to stay away. He has never been married and doesn't understand what marriage is all about. He is a lifelong friend and I don't see why he would want to ruin her life.
My biggest fear is that that she will take my kids and leave... they are the number one reason why I would fight for her. I also continue to be miserable due to her emotional and verbal abuse and I just want it to end.
But you are not fighting for her. You are allowing an OM to wreck your marriage. Sitting around doing nothing is not fighting, it is rolling over. Unless you run this man off, this is a hopeless situation.
She accuses you of the affair to throw you off balance.
My wife is at home with the kids...
I make the money, I support the family, and she depends on me for more than she would ever admit. She might have felt lack of control or power.. or if I did leave her she would not be taken care of... this might be why she is so abusive now. This gives her control. I went into plan A to try to win her back.. which further puts her in control because she knows I love her and will fight for her so she is in a prime position to be as abusive as she wants. I never had an affair nor gave her any reason to suspect one. This doesn't mean that she is not afraid though or felt powerless.
I believe this is correct
Her stupid friend told her to accuse me of an affair. That�s all their is to it. It's just a smoke screen for her.. or her mind has convinced her of an alternate reality.
This is a waste of time to even consider.
You need to focus on exposure
Sir, you need to read the EXPOSURE 101 thread and expose it far and wide tomorrow.
Can you do that to kill this affair?
Given all you have written you are in a good position to break up this affair and you are too afraid to nuke it. That OM lives 1000s of miles away and can't even take care of himself are big things going in your favor. Your wife can't just take off with your kids unless you let her and do nothing. Where would she go if she left the house? Does she have family nearby? Have you exposed to her family and not just yours?
Also, did you tell your family and church that she is having an EA with this guy or did you minimize it?
I sent the actual evidence to my family.. they would not have belived it otherwise. before I completely go full exposure..let me check the records and report back what the actual contact has been over the last two months.
Also...Here is what my gut really is telling me and I�d be happy to be convinced that I am wrong. My wife went to her HS reunion where she reconnected with other unmarried, opposite sex friends. She spent a week with people from the past, excitement, no responsibilities� meeting up at the bar for drinks etc.. when she came home, she became depressed . All the reality came back, getting older (almost 40), not having more children, and not being happy with her life and this is all my fault. She wants to go move back to where she grew up, she wants to drink more, and be with her old friends more. If I expose this one guy� all the rest of that fantasy world is still going to be there and she can just pick another opposite sex friend to talk to. I really think the problem is systemic to her and not just this one individual� does anyone else see that? I think that if she would focus on having an amazing marriage and an integrated life .. she could be happy; but she is afraid of that because it means going forward in life, growing up, and putting away the things of the past.
A
I sent the actual evidence to my family.. they would not have belived it otherwise. before I completely go full exposure..let me check the records and report back what the actual contact has been over the last two months.
Also...Here is what my gut really is telling me and I�d be happy to be convinced that I am wrong. My wife went to her HS reunion where she reconnected with other unmarried, opposite sex friends. She spent a week with people from the past, excitement, no responsibilities� meeting up at the bar for drinks etc.. when she came home, she became depressed . All the reality came back, getting older (almost 40), not having more children, and not being happy with her life and this is all my fault. She wants to go move back to where she grew up, she wants to drink more, and be with her old friends more. If I expose this one guy� all the rest of that fantasy world is still going to be there and she can just pick another opposite sex friend to talk to. I really think the problem is systemic to her and not just this one individual� does anyone else see that? I think that if she would focus on having an amazing marriage and an integrated life .. she could be happy; but she is afraid of that because it means going forward in life, growing up, and putting away the things of the past.
That is great. So since the OM is "not the real problem," she shouldn't mind dumping him if you go ask her right now. Please go ask her right now to agree to never communicate with the OM again. Come back and tell us her response.
"affair. I sought out counseling and engaged in as much snooping as possible for me to confront her with it. She was horribly upset and offended by the snooping and the councilor advised to stop doing it. Although she denied everything.. �this was just a friend� , the emotional affair through text messages and frequent phone calls seemed to stop. "
Her reaction to your snooping is proof positive the affair is in full swing. That is the reaction of a spouse who has something to hide, since full transparency would EXONERATE HER. People who have nothing to hide, don't hide.
And you can thank the counselor for helping her hide her affair. Did you actually pay this person for this marriage wrecking advice?
"I sent the actual evidence to my family.. they would not have belived it otherwise. before I completely go full exposure..let me check the records and report back what the actual contact has been over the last two months. "
Have you resumed your snooping?
I exposed the affiar to my family but she has not been confronted. A confrentation would be devistating to her. I struggle because with such limited contact, I cannot be 100% sure or even 50% sure she is addicted to this. How can a drug addict be addicted if they only get a very small dose and it's once or twice a month? I'm not saying that this shouldn't end completely, it should.. but how do I unleash the bomb if I'm not 100% sure? How do I know this is not a mid-life crisis? A transference of anger from her childhood onto me? or anything else? How can I find out for sure if this is really the problem?
She will be addicted to OM for the rest of her life. The slightest contact with him will set her back to square one. It is vital for drug addicts to never touch their drug again. It is vital for alcoholics to never take another sip. It is vital for a wayward to have absolutely no contact with their affair partner ever again.
There have been marriages that were well on their way to recovery, only to be devastated when no contact was broken just once. It sets the couple back to square one.
You will make no progress as long as she remains in contact.
A
I sent the actual evidence to my family.. they would not have belived it otherwise. before I completely go full exposure..let me check the records and report back what the actual contact has been over the last two months.
Also...Here is what my gut really is telling me and I�d be happy to be convinced that I am wrong. My wife went to her HS reunion where she reconnected with other unmarried, opposite sex friends. She spent a week with people from the past, excitement, no responsibilities� meeting up at the bar for drinks etc.. when she came home, she became depressed . All the reality came back, getting older (almost 40), not having more children, and not being happy with her life and this is all my fault. She wants to go move back to where she grew up, she wants to drink more, and be with her old friends more. If I expose this one guy� all the rest of that fantasy world is still going to be there and she can just pick another opposite sex friend to talk to. I really think the problem is systemic to her and not just this one individual� does anyone else see that? I think that if she would focus on having an amazing marriage and an integrated life .. she could be happy; but she is afraid of that because it means going forward in life, growing up, and putting away the things of the past.
That is great. So since the OM is "not the real problem," she shouldn't mind dumping him if you go ask her right now. Please go ask her right now to agree to never communicate with the OM again. Come back and tell us her response.
I can tell you exactly the response.. it was " you can tell me I can't have friends ?" - Anger, walk away, not talk to me, months of abuse.
Her reaction to your snooping is proof positive the affair is in full swing.
YES! People who have nothing to hide don't hide anything!
It doesn't surprise me in the least bit that she would accuse you of having an affair. Waywards not only throw up smoke screens, but they need a way to justify what they are doing.
I exposed the affiar to my family but she has not been confronted. A confrentation would be devistating to her. I struggle because with such limited contact, I cannot be 100% sure or even 50% sure she is addicted to this. How can a drug addict be addicted if they only get a very small dose and it's once or twice a month? I'm not saying that this shouldn't end completely, it should.. but how do I unleash the bomb if I'm not 100% sure? How do I know this is not a mid-life crisis? A transference of anger from her childhood onto me? or anything else? How can I find out for sure if this is really the problem?
Mid life crisis is pop psychology. You are trying to find logical reasons for an illogical addiction. You think (logically) that he can't meet her ENs - but it's not about having a logical and fulfilling relationship. It's about how she is allowed to fall off the wagon periodically.
People of all ages exhibit the behaviours your wife is showing. It's not a midlife crisis and has nothing to do with you.
The addiction is never broken without confrontation by exposure. Why on earth is everyone tiptoing around her? She needs that reality check of what continued contact will cost her.
You can't educate her out of this. You need to let the consequences fall freely. She knew her affair would disappoint people when she chose it.
Educating her and counselling her is not only ineffective, it's disrespectful and annoying. Instead of telling her what she should be focused on, allow her the full results of her choices and then she can decide for herself.
"I sent the actual evidence to my family.. they would not have belived it otherwise. before I completely go full exposure..let me check the records and report back what the actual contact has been over the last two months. "
Have you resumed your snooping?
I don't really need to "snoop" much.. it's long distance, so I only need to check the phone record to see how often there is contract and for how long. I can say right now that over the last month, there have been only a couple txt messages and maybe 1 attempt at a phone call (not answered)..
whereas.. there are many hours of calls with the girlfrind that suggested that I be accused of an affair.
A
I sent the actual evidence to my family.. they would not have belived it otherwise. before I completely go full exposure..let me check the records and report back what the actual contact has been over the last two months.
Also...Here is what my gut really is telling me and I�d be happy to be convinced that I am wrong. My wife went to her HS reunion where she reconnected with other unmarried, opposite sex friends. She spent a week with people from the past, excitement, no responsibilities� meeting up at the bar for drinks etc.. when she came home, she became depressed . All the reality came back, getting older (almost 40), not having more children, and not being happy with her life and this is all my fault. She wants to go move back to where she grew up, she wants to drink more, and be with her old friends more. If I expose this one guy� all the rest of that fantasy world is still going to be there and she can just pick another opposite sex friend to talk to. I really think the problem is systemic to her and not just this one individual� does anyone else see that? I think that if she would focus on having an amazing marriage and an integrated life .. she could be happy; but she is afraid of that because it means going forward in life, growing up, and putting away the things of the past.
That is great. So since the OM is "not the real problem," she shouldn't mind dumping him if you go ask her right now. Please go ask her right now to agree to never communicate with the OM again. Come back and tell us her response.
I can tell you exactly the response.. it was " you can tell me I can't have friends ?" - Anger, walk away, not talk to me, months of abuse.
You're using a pea shooter in a gun fight. Exposure is supposed to make her furious. Completely incandescent. However she can't keep it up because it causes trouble in the A and she can't be mad at everyone while holding the A together. She should also see that you totally don't care about her tantrums and they aren't keeping you in line.
Instead you've not interfered with her affair and are rewarding the tantrums by walking on egg shells. You're also the only person giving her flak making you a nice, easy, solo target. So obviously, she's going to keep having them. At you.
.
"I sent the actual evidence to my family.. they would not have belived it otherwise. before I completely go full exposure..let me check the records and report back what the actual contact has been over the last two months. "
Have you resumed your snooping?
I don't really need to "snoop" much.. it's long distance, so I only need to check the phone record to see how often there is contract and for how long. I can say right now that over the last month, there have been only a couple txt messages and maybe 1 attempt at a phone call (not answered)..
whereas.. there are many hours of calls with the girlfrind that suggested that I be accused of an affair.
Have you checked for a burner phones and apps?
Why on earth are you blaming her childhood? It is totally natural to fall victim to affairs. Anyone can fall victim to an affair, particularly if there's a pre-existing love bank. Dr H says married people should never attend reunions alone because that can happen to anyone.
I think that one thing I can do is to talk to the OM and ask him to stay away. He has never been married and doesn't understand what marriage is all about. He is a lifelong friend and I don't see why he would want to ruin her life.
Either the friendship is over or the marriage is over. It is impossible to have both.
most affairs meet only some emotional needs not met in marriage, leaving others that are being met by a spouse. That fact usually rules out the possibility of divorce, at least for the spouse having the affair. The wayward spouse knows that the lover, for some reason, is not able to meet some of the needs met by his or her spouse. So most affairs are never intended to lead to divorce and remarriage, but are "safety-valve" relationships that satisfy a need not met in marriage.
Having drawn the above conclusion about the nature of affairs, it should be obvious why most wayward spouses would like their affairs to go undetected. Not only do they want to avoid all the unhappiness that goes with discovery, but they also want to continue the affair as long as it meets needs not met in marriage. In most cases, a lover only meets one or two emotional needs, while the spouse meets others. ..
l]
We are all wired to have an affair. We can all fall in love with someone of the opposite sex if that person meets one of our emotional needs. If you don't think it can happen to you because of your conviction or will-power, you are particularly vulnerable to an affair. And if you think your spouse would never have an affair, you are also vulnerable. ..
Most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.
The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.
I checked the last months worth of records. There has been no contact except for 1 call attempt that didn't actually go through (or it last less than 2 min). I completely agree that the relationship needed to be ended (mostly out of respect for marriage).. but it really appears to me that it run its course or there was never really much there. I now know that I should never let her have traveled alone and I never will again. On the last trip a couple months ago, I went with her. I stood by her side the entire time even though she ignorned me while I was there (quite embarassing)... but he was there and nothing happened. She was just angry with me for "running off her friend".
Even if I run him off for real.. which I can do. I am battling some kind of fantasy world in her head where I am the source of all that is bad and hanging out at a bar with high school losers is all that is good. How can I fight this nonesense? Will she ever stop being so angry and have a moment of clairity?
Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through hell. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?
In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.
Look at M.S.'s husband. Here he is, thousands of miles from his lover, and yet he still feels compelled to call her. Can you imagine the trouble M.S. would have had separating them if they had not moved? Their move was the best thing that could have happened to their marriage because it not only revealed the affair, but it also set up the conditions that would make ending it possible -- total separation.
We don't know if R.J. still sees his lover, but he says he has broken off all contact. In many cases where a person is still in town, that's hard to prove. But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible. In fact, one of the reasons he is not recovering after three months of separation may be that he is not being truthful about the separation.
. In the case of M.S.'s husband, he is suffering so much that he can no longer make love to his wife, something that had always come very easily to him in the past. What is happening to these men?
They are experiencing symptoms of withdrawal from the addiction they have to their lovers.
As soon as a victimized spouse decides to stay married and struggle through reconciliation, he or she usually sets out to meet whatever needs the lover had been meeting. If it was sex, the spouse offers more and better sex. If it was affection, it's more affection. Both M.S. and R.J.'s wife were willing to do whatever it took to regain their wayward spouses' love.
But it didn't work for either of them. That's because both of their husbands were in withdrawal. They were both addicted to their lovers and separation from them caused them to suffer from depression. That, in turn, made it almost impossible for their spouses to meet their emotional needs. So all of that love and care that was being extended to them was being wasted. Until they would recover from withdrawal, the efforts of their wives to please them will be very disappointing.
Withdrawal is the emotional reaction to the loss of something that gives great pleasure. It's similar to the feelings an alcoholic has when he makes a commitment never to drink again. It's also similar to the grief that comes from the loss of a loved one. A lover is like alcohol and like a loved one. Not only do unfaithful spouses miss what it was their lovers did, meeting important emotional needs, but they also miss the person they had come to love.
Our most common emotions are anger, anxiety and depression. Symptoms of withdrawal usually include all of these in a very intense form. I usually suggest that anti-depressant medication be used to help alleviate these symptoms. While the most intense symptoms of withdrawal usually last only about three weeks, in some cases they can linger for six months or longer before they start to fade.
It is extremely likely that a commitment to remain separated from a lover will be broken unless extreme measures are taken to avoid it. That's because the emotional reaction of withdrawal is so painful.
There's a sense in which M.S.'s husband was in withdrawal even before M.S. discovered the affair. As soon as the move was made, he became depressed, and what M.S. noticed the most was his lack of interest in sex. Depression will do that to you (and so will anti-depressant medication -- one of it's only side effects is a loss of sex drive).
If M.S.'s husband were to avoid talking to his lover for three weeks, it's likely that his sex drive would start to return, since the worst symptoms of withdrawal would probably have ended. He has a long history of sexual interest in his wife, and I guarantee that he will eventually do just fine in bed.
I checked the last months worth of records. There has been no contact except for 1 call attempt that didn't actually go through (or it last less than 2 min). I completely agree that the relationship needed to be ended (mostly out of respect for marriage).. but it really appears to me that it run its course or there was never really much there.
That is true of ALL affairs. If there was 'much there' it wouldn't be an affair. This is like saying there's not much nutrition in crack cocaine or booze.
Besides which you aren't snooping. They could have dozens of methods of communication you don't know about
What's certain is that her behaviour is that of someone triggered by the A. Since she objects to snooping and he is too important to cut loose it's clear she is still addicted to contact with him.
You could try to talk the drunk sober or you could cut off the booze.
Of course she's angry. Textbook.
Run him off!
By the way.. I know my wife very well. When it comes to our relationship, she has only acted out of emotion.. never logic. The fact that she stands the risk of losing her house, children, family, and financial support means nothing to her because she feels that she is "angry" about something. She never, never, never appologizes for anything in our years and years of marriage. I always reach out to her after every single fight. I had gotten used to living with her this way.. and I always loved her anyway. She has completely gone off the deep end... The idea that a rational person would at least try to pull a marriage back together after a minor emotional affair is completely lost on her. I love her.. but, there is something seriously wrong with her.
I stood by her side the entire time even though she ignorned me while I was there (quite embarassing)... but he was there and nothing happened. She was just angry with me for "running off her friend".
I am really shocked that you would agree for her to see her boyfriend much less go with her. This reflects an extreme amount of enabling and capitulation. I can why your wife is so hostile. You don't seem to give a damn about your marriage.
Can you explain why in the world you would agree to go with her to see her boyfriend? I find that shocking in its complacence.
Even if I run him off for real.. which I can do.
Really? I would like to see this happen. Additionally, I would like to seee a more caring, proactive approach to your marriage. What do you do when your wife says she is going off to hang out in bars with losers?
She is NOT a rational person. She is an addict.
It honesty doesn't matter who she used to be. Read the other threads. The other WWs spitting and hissing are exactly the same.
One WW had her husband committed, told him she hated him - he just shrugged it off. She told him she'd never forgive exposure and it humiliated her. Shrugged it off. She joined the OM in getting a restraining order against her husband. But the BH kept chasing him off.
Weeks later she fell into his arms and said she was so glad he'd never given up on her. OMs life was made so difficult he'd dumped her but her husband had persevered for her.
I stood by her side the entire time even though she ignorned me while I was there (quite embarassing)... but he was there and nothing happened. She was just angry with me for "running off her friend".
I am really shocked that you would agree for her to see her boyfriend much less go with her. This reflects an extreme amount of enabling and capitulation. I can why your wife is so hostile. You don't seem to give a damn about your marriage.
Can you explain why in the world you would agree to go with her to see her boyfriend? I find that shocking in its complacence.
?
X2 very uncaring.
The fact that she stands the risk of losing her house, children, family, and financial support means nothing to her because she feels that she is "angry" about something.
Right, while the other WWs did it because it would be good for their finances, marriage and reputation.
Good gravy man, she's nothing special.
By the way.. I know my wife very well. When it comes to our relationship, she has only acted out of emotion.. never logic. The fact that she stands the risk of losing her house, children, family, and financial support means nothing to her because she feels that she is "angry" about something. She never, never, never appologizes for anything in our years and years of marriage. I always reach out to her after every single fight. I had gotten used to living with her this way.. and I always loved her anyway. She has completely gone off the deep end... The idea that a rational person would at least try to pull a marriage back together after a minor emotional affair is completely lost on her. I love her.. but, there is something seriously wrong with her.
And there is also something very wrong with your approach. Rather than help your marriage recover, you have offered her "forgiveness" even though she has never ended her affair. Check this out:
Check this out:
The concept of unconditional love in marriage usually refers to a spouse�s lifelong commitment to care for the other spouse regardless of what the other spouse does. I�m in favor of a lifelong commitment to care regardless of unfavorable circumstances (health problems, financial setbacks, and other factors outside a couple�s control that can negatively impact a marriage). But I�m opposed to a lifelong commitment to care for a spouse when that spouse makes marriage-wrecking choices.
It tends to give such people unrealistic expectations of entitlement�that they should be cared for, regardless of their willingness to care in return. Neglect and abuse characterize many marriages based on unconditional love. <----this is what has happened in your marriage.
hereand this:
As it turns out, sacrificing your own pleasure so that your wife can be happy is the way to make her perpetually unhappy. Instead of making her feel fulfilled, it makes her feel frustrated, and you are likely to eventually give up. But if you meet her needs and resolve your conflicts enthusiastically, she will not only be happy and fulfilled, but you enjoy doing what it takes to make her happy for the rest of your lives together.
I stood by her side the entire time even though she ignorned me while I was there (quite embarassing)... but he was there and nothing happened. She was just angry with me for "running off her friend".
I am really shocked that you would agree for her to see her boyfriend much less go with her. This reflects an extreme amount of enabling and capitulation. I can why your wife is so hostile. You don't seem to give a damn about your marriage.
Can you explain why in the world you would agree to go with her to see her boyfriend? I find that shocking in its complacence.
Even if I run him off for real.. which I can do.
Really? I would like to see this happen. Additionally, I would like to seee a more caring, proactive approach to your marriage. What do you do when your wife says she is going off to hang out in bars with losers?
My wife told me that she was going. I do not have a choice. She said that I could go or stay home and that was my only choice. She made the bet that I would not go and she was shocked and angry that I went but I did.
What else can I do? Can I tell another adult what they can and cannot do? I thought that being by her side was the best approach to stand up for our marriage.. and at the same time avoiding any kind of fight with the OM.
You need to stop being so timid.
Why didn't your exposure targets come around and ask her if she could explain why she was flying off to see her boyfriend? Why wasn't she informed that you would do exactly nothing to help her see him? Why isn't OM in fear of legal action and public exposure? Why wasn't the party organizer or guests exposed to?
Can I tell another adult what they can and cannot do?
I'm just trying to imagine being told by my spouse that we are flying off to see the bit on the side... I can't.
It's only men who seem to fall for this 'you're being controlling' nonsense. Women sort it out.
With some heroic Plan A exceptions.
I could never be married to a man who would stand by the side of a decision to see my boyfriend!
I stood by her side the entire time even though she ignorned me while I was there (quite embarassing)... but he was there and nothing happened. She was just angry with me for "running off her friend".
I am really shocked that you would agree for her to see her boyfriend much less go with her. This reflects an extreme amount of enabling and capitulation. I can why your wife is so hostile. You don't seem to give a damn about your marriage.
Can you explain why in the world you would agree to go with her to see her boyfriend? I find that shocking in its complacence.
Even if I run him off for real.. which I can do.
Really? I would like to see this happen. Additionally, I would like to seee a more caring, proactive approach to your marriage. What do you do when your wife says she is going off to hang out in bars with losers?
My wife told me that she was going. I do not have a choice. OM.
This is what happens when the wayward drives the bus.
[
My wife told me that she was going. I do not have a choice. She said that I could go or stay home and that was my only choice. She made the bet that I would not go and she was shocked and angry that I went but I did.
What else can I do? Can I tell another adult what they can and cannot do? I thought that being by her side was the best approach to stand up for our marriage.. and at the same time avoiding any kind of fight with the OM.
I would have exposed her affair wide and far and made a major fuss about it. Going with her just smacks of enabling. I am unclear on how it was standing for your marriage by standing next to your wife and her boyfriend?
Like we have told you many, many times on this thread, if you want to turn this around, you need to expose her affair and run this guy off. It sounds like you have many other problems but that would be a great first step.
[qand at the same time avoiding any kind of fight with the OM..
Have you ever confronted him about his affair with your wife?
I need to know how to tell my wife that she can't go. Legally, what can I do? We are usually going to also see her family.. so it's not a trip purely to visit the OM. We just happen to be in the same town and she says "I'm going out tonight" I would love it if there is some way to forbid her from going and seeing her friends whom are toxic.. how do I do that? This is why I am on the forum.
[qand at the same time avoiding any kind of fight with the OM..
Have you ever confronted him about his affair with your wife?
No.. I'm happy to confront him and I think there is a good chance I could run him off for a while. At a bar with alcohol involved is not the right time or place for this confrontation, but I would be happy to do it. I have his phone number.. and I'd like to find his address too. Can I take legal action? That is only a possibility in some states I believe.
I need to know how to tell my wife that she can't go. Legally, what can I do? We are usually going to also see her family.. so it's not a trip purely to visit the OM. We just happen to be in the same town and she says "I'm going out tonight" I would love it if there is some way to forbid her from going and seeing her friends whom are toxic.. how do I do that? This is why I am on the forum.
I'd very much recommend full on snooping. You'd also get lots of dirt on the enabling friends.
Can you read the exposure thread in Melody Lanes signature? You need supportive exposure targets to help you drive home to her how skanky her behaviour is.
You can also expose OM to family, friends, and expose him online so his name is trashed in a Google search. Completely legal to tell the truth.
You should see what your legal options are with your local laws, ie restraining orders, alienation of affection, being named in any divorce he contributed to.
Who is this guy? Is he married, what's his line of work?
Here's a thread about confronting OM.
Good ways are confronting him publicly, at his workplace. Or calling him up to tell him you care about your wife and he is not welcome to contact her. OM are pansies so the hardest part will be not laughing as he wets himself.
You tell him he will never be accepted by the family and you will do everything in your power to keep her safe. Recording the discussion or having a friend along as witness is a good idea. Or to hold you back!
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=170321&Number=2791622#Post2791622
I need to know how to tell my wife that she can't go. Legally, what can I do? We are usually going to also see her family.. so it's not a trip purely to visit the OM. We just happen to be in the same town and she says "I'm going out tonight" I would love it if there is some way to forbid her from going and seeing her friends whom are toxic.. how do I do that? This is why I am on the forum.
I'd very much recommend full on snooping. You'd also get lots of dirt on the enabling friends.
Can you read the exposure thread in Melody Lanes signature? You need supportive exposure targets to help you drive home to her how skanky her behaviour is.
You can also expose OM to family, friends, and expose him online so his name is trashed in a Google search. Completely legal to tell the truth.
You should see what your legal options are with your local laws, ie restraining orders, alienation of affection, being named in any divorce he contributed to.
Who is this guy? Is he married, what's his line of work?
Not married, self employed.. it's hard to make a good legal case because they have barely talked in months.. and all I do have is a couple weeks worth of texts with an "I love you", "I'm always there for you", "I miss you".. that sort of thing.. after that, the communications were all just normal.. Hi.. how are ya.. kind of stuff. This is a wishy-washy affair and hard to substantiate that it is an on going problem.. That makes the exposure so difficult. When I show people what I do have, there is no argument that it was inappropriate but that part of it seems to have completely stopped.
I think that the main issue that my wife possibly had was that if I cut her off from this individual, I would be cutting her off from other friends as well.
How do I step up the plan A so that she will want this relationship and all this other nonesense with the friends will not mean so much to her... ?
By the way.. I know my wife very well. When it comes to our relationship, she has only acted out of emotion.. never logic. The fact that she stands the risk of losing her house, children, family, and financial support means nothing to her because she feels that she is "angry" about something. She never, never, never appologizes for anything in our years and years of marriage. I always reach out to her after every single fight. I had gotten used to living with her this way.. and I always loved her anyway. She has completely gone off the deep end... The idea that a rational person would at least try to pull a marriage back together after a minor emotional affair is completely lost on her. I love her.. but, there is something seriously wrong with her.
Typical wayward wife. Nothing new or surprising there. ANY BH could've written that.
If you confront the OM in person, buy a VAR and wear it. It wouldn't be a huge surprise for him to try to say you assaulted him/threatened to hurt him and the VAR will exonerate you in a circumstance like that.
[ot married, self employed.. it's hard to make a good legal case because they have barely talked in months.. and all I do have is a couple weeks worth of texts with an "I love you", "I'm always there for you", "I miss you".. that sort of thing.. after that, the communications were all just normal.. Hi.. how are ya.. kind of stuff. This is a wishy-washy affair and hard to substantiate that it is an on going problem..
First off, you have to snoop to find something. As you said earlier, your wife told you to stop and you pretty much do what she dictates.
Secondly, just because lovers have "normal"
communications [what does that mean??] does not mean the affair is over. Any contact at all is a resumption of the affair. That would be like an alcoholic changing the name of his drinks to "business drinks" and pretending to be sober. Your wife and her boyfriend can't go back and be "friends" because their feelings have surpassed the romantic love threshold. So every time they communicate, those feelings are rekindled.
You really need to do some sleuthing and find out what is happening, because she very likely has other means of contact since you TOLD HER YOU WERE SNOOPING.
I see a lot of denial here..
[
I think that the main issue that my wife possibly had was that if I cut her off from this individual, I would be cutting her off from other friends as well.
How do I step up the plan A so that she will want this relationship and all this other nonesense with the friends will not mean so much to her... ?
We told you. Expose the affair and run this man off. I would also do everything in your power to run off these toxic friends.
I need to know how to tell my wife that she can't go. Legally, what can I do? We are usually going to also see her family.. so it's not a trip purely to visit the OM. We just happen to be in the same town and she says "I'm going out tonight" I would love it if there is some way to forbid her from going and seeing her friends whom are toxic.. how do I do that? This is why I am on the forum.
You can start by stopping being such an enabler. I would love to see you act like you CARE and strenuously object to her toxic, marriage wrecking behavior.
Does her family endorse infidelity as you do?
I need to know how to tell my wife that she can't go. Legally, what can I do? We are usually going to also see her family.. so it's not a trip purely to visit the OM. We just happen to be in the same town and she says "I'm going out tonight" I would love it if there is some way to forbid her from going and seeing her friends whom are toxic.. how do I do that? This is why I am on the forum.
I'd very much recommend full on snooping. You'd also get lots of dirt on the enabling friends.
Can you read the exposure thread in Melody Lanes signature? You need supportive exposure targets to help you drive home to her how skanky her behaviour is.
You can also expose OM to family, friends, and expose him online so his name is trashed in a Google search. Completely legal to tell the truth.
You should see what your legal options are with your local laws, ie restraining orders, alienation of affection, being named in any divorce he contributed to.
Who is this guy? Is he married, what's his line of work?
Not married, self employed.. it's hard to make a good legal case because they have barely talked in months.. and all I do have is a couple weeks worth of texts with an "I love you", "I'm always there for you", "I miss you".. that sort of thing.. after that, the communications were all just normal.. Hi.. how are ya.. kind of stuff.
if he's self employed can you let his customers know?
m.. That makes the exposure so difficult. When I show people what I do have, there is no argument that it was inappropriate but that part of it seems to have completely stopped.
I think that the main issue that my wife possibly had was that if I cut her off from this individual, I would be cutting her off from other friends as well.
How do I step up the plan A so that she will want this relationship and all this other nonesense with the friends will not mean so much to her... ?
most reasonable people would be horrified by this on going contact with the AP. After an offer of forgiveness, it's all she needs to do! It doesn't need to be sexy to be stopped, it just needs to stop. Will anyone tell her she is being horrifically immoral by trying to keep him?
I think that the main issue that my wife possibly had was that if I cut her off from this individual, I would be cutting her off from other friends as well.
How do I step up the plan A so that she will want this relationship and all this other nonesense with the friends will not mean so much to her... ?
The real attraction of these friends is they support her alley cat choices. Run off the A and she will have little use for them.
Wifedivorcing did one of the best confrontations.
I confronted him. He was nervous and he called the police. I asked him his intentions. And he wouldn't answer. I told him I love my wife and my family. I told him to leave her alone. Dont text, call or see her. I told him he ruined his marriage 8 years ago cheating. I told him I have evidence as I pointed my flash drive at him. I also told him I have his DNA. He was concerned with that. He then said if I only new my wife and he said from what he's told she has every reason for leaving me... I told him instead of messing around with my wife pay attention to your son...that one got him. That's when he told me to leave and called the cops. I told him what are trying to get have of my homes equity b/c you have nothing. I hit a nerve he said what do you mean I have nothing. I repeated it you have nothing. I then said I will fight for her like a pit bull on steroids. He said he is going to sue me for fb post liable. he also said he knows my weakness so I better watch. Out. I told this fight isn't over with...
Regarding the comments about "not much contact recently":
You are probably being gaslighted by your wife and her enablers about this, so maybe you feel like there is a line they haven't crossed.
But for any reasonable person looking at this from the outside, the only proper response from your wife after you exposed their affair was to DROP THIS GUY like a bad habit. ANYTHING else is crossing a BIG line. ANY further contact is NOT OK. Anybody who tells you anything otherwise is an idiot and is NOT worth your time trying to convince.
You need to draw a line in the sand here. Your OM is extremely vulnerable because he is self employed. He has customers he cannot afford to lose and you can make the cost of pursuing your wife completely unaffordable for him if you want to fight this battle. If you spoil his credibility with his customers, you ruin the viability of his business.
You've asked a few times about what you can and cannot tell your wife to do, and you are missing the point to be focusing on what you can SAY to her. She's an adult, she can do what she wants and I doubt anything you say to her at this point is going to stop her from continuing her affair.
BUT you can take actions that will make the consequences of her choices greater than she is willing to accept. That is what exposure will do.
Don't worry about what to say to her. Focus on what you're going to do to make this affair completely intolerable for her. Expose and make her OM regret ever having anything to do with her.
Thank you for all the feedback on exposure. The main issue that I am facing right now is dealing with her constant abuse. It's tearing me up every day. I don't want to come home and see her because she is so unpleasant and miserable. She berates and disrespects me in front of the children often. I don't know how to survive this and how long to expect to live this way.
You need to get on antidepressants if you feel that way.
See your doctor, explain your situation and ask to be prescribed antidepressants. This is what Dr. Harley recommends.
Your reaction to this is pretty normal. This is a very hard circumstance to be in. I wasn't eating or sleeping very well when I was in your spot (close to Dday), it's very taxing.
Regarding the comments about "not much contact recently":
You are probably being gaslighted by your wife and her enablers about this, so maybe you feel like there is a line they haven't crossed.
But for any reasonable person looking at this from the outside, the only proper response from your wife after you exposed their affair was to DROP THIS GUY like a bad habit. ANYTHING else is crossing a BIG line. ANY further contact is NOT OK. Anybody who tells you anything otherwise is an idiot and is NOT worth your time trying to convince.
You need to draw a line in the sand here. Your OM is extremely vulnerable because he is self employed. He has customers he cannot afford to lose and you can make the cost of pursuing your wife completely unaffordable for him if you want to fight this battle. If you spoil his credibility with his customers, you ruin the viability of his business.
You've asked a few times about what you can and cannot tell your wife to do, and you are missing the point to be focusing on what you can SAY to her. She's an adult, she can do what she wants and I doubt anything you say to her at this point is going to stop her from continuing her affair.
BUT you can take actions that will make the consequences of her choices greater than she is willing to accept. That is what exposure will do.
Don't worry about what to say to her. Focus on what you're going to do to make this affair completely intolerable for her. Expose and make her OM regret ever having anything to do with her.
I feel strongly that I need undeniable proof that this is still going on. I don't see it. I think that she is thinking about leaving and taking the kids.
No, you don't need undeniable prOof that it is going on today. That is not relevant. An affair that has ended should be exposed anyway so it doesn't resume. As long as you keep it a secret, they are free to carry on. And you would pRobably go with her!
Did you read about exposure? Did you read Dr Harley's article about exposure?
I feel strongly that I need undeniable proof that this is still going on. I don't see it. I think that she is thinking about leaving and taking the kids.
It is important that you have an strong case with good evidence before you expose, and to be honest I haven't read enough of this thread to know what you do and do not have already. I understand from an earlier post that you have text messages confirming their relationship, but they've slowed down, right?
Understand that for some, there is no convincing. People either connect the dots or they don't (usually because they are in denial).
I had phone communications between my WW and her AP as well as GPS data showing her at his location for days at a time after she moved out and some in her family STILL gave her the benefit of the doubt. I even had one person ask me "what if she's staying the night there but isn't sleeping with him?"
They desperately wanted anything they could find to believe it wasn't a physical affair because they were in denial. You are going to have people around you like that also.
Snoop with every opportunity you can get, do NOT tell your wife you are doing so, and show us your evidence. You already know what the truth is and we can give you an objective opinion of how solid your case is.
Once you have that, you have to run with it and let the cards fall where they may. You've entered very murky waters here and you are going to find out in short order who you can trust in your social circle and who you cannot. Every exposure is like this.
If you think your wife is seriously close to leaving, you need to focus on getting snooping set up before she's out the door, because that task gets much harder once she's out of the house.
Dr Bill Harley, clinical psychologist and author of Surviving an Affair
"What about exposure of an affair that took place years earlier and is now ended but recently revealed? I feel that the children, close relatives, close friends, and the lovers spouse should be informed. Granted, it's embarrassing to admit an affair, but publicly admitting failure is usually the first step toward redemption.
As you probably already know, I'm a strong advocate of honesty and openness in marriage. I call it transparency -- letting your spouse know everything about you, especially your faults. But should that level of openness carry into the public arena? I believe that it should in cases of extreme irresponsibility, and that certainly includes infidelity. When you have done something very hurtful to someone else, others should know about it. Such exposure helps prevent a recurrence of the offense. Your closest friends and relatives will be keeping an eye on you -- holding you accountable."
He has prooF of the affair. His pRoof is not RECENT, which is irrelevant.
Here is your evidence:
:
". and all I do have is a couple weeks worth of texts with an "I love you", "I'm always there for you", "I miss you".. that sort of thing.. after that, the communications were all just normal.. Hi.. how are ya.. kind of stuff."
MelodyLane is the most experienced poster here regarding exposure, she has helped literally thousands of other posters through this part of the process.
Without exposure you have nothing keeping your wife and her affair partner from getting back together. And since she knows you are snooping, the affair may simply be happening via other avenues of communication.
I saw an earlier comment about her friends. You probably have it backwards. It's likely that she is friends with these people because THEY SUPPORT the affair, not vice-versa. This is not uncommon either.
You need to kill the affair before she will ditch those friends. I'm willing to bet she has people close to her (like her family!) who she cares more about than her trashy friends who are encouraging her to cheat on her husband. You need to focus like a laser on the people around her who support your marriage, and anyone who supports the affair needs to be OUT of the picture. They cannot stay.
I'm going to bet these probably are relatively new friends, right? That's usually how that works. Your wife has probably just recruited cheerleaders to help her ease her conscience.
There is no evidence that it is ongoing.. .I have looked pretty hard. Exposure will help long term... but for the short term she is so terribly abusive that I'm completely miserable. I'm afraid every day that she is going to take the kids and move away.. I know she is looking for apartments and houses in this town 1000's of miles away, but logic tells me that it is a fantasy and not reality that she could leave with no financial support. How can I survive this abuse... if I could figure that out, I could probably focus on other things. It's getting so bad that I can't even think straight.
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There is no evidence that it is ongoing.. .I have looked pretty hard. Exposure will help long term...
That is good. You should expose the affair NOW and make sure he is run off and the affair is killed. Part of her bitterness comes from lingering feelings about the OM.
Exposure will help wake her up and may motivate her to try and change. I would also let her know that you won't put up with her abuse for long. I would certainly never reward her or go along with her destructive ideas.
Does she have access to your money or large lines of credit? If so, I would move your money.
On the texts:
Married adults don't text ANY of these phrases to people of the opposite sex, outside of their immediate family:
"I love you", "I'm always there for you", "I miss you"
None of this is OK. This and your gut feeling is enough to convince any reasonable person as to what is happening. You are her husband and this PLUS the texts are plenty enough to ask other people for help with getting your wife to abandon this relationship and focus on your marriage. Your wife's reaction is incredibly damning as to what her intentions are, and most people will instinctively understand that.
Just imagine your wife going to your father in law with texts like the ones you are describing between you and another woman and the same types of concerns about the relationship, meanwhile you are distancing yourself and asking for a divorce. Do you have any doubt as to what conclusions people would draw about that?
There is no evidence that it is ongoing.. .I have looked pretty hard. Exposure will help long term... but for the short term she is so terribly abusive that I'm completely miserable. I'm afraid every day that she is going to take the kids and move away.. I know she is looking for apartments and houses in this town 1000's of miles away, but logic tells me that it is a fantasy and not reality that she could leave with no financial support. How can I survive this abuse... if I could figure that out, I could probably focus on other things. It's getting so bad that I can't even think straight.
Sounds like you've got a good handle on how feasible it would be for her to leave.
When can you get into a Dr. to talk about getting ADs?
There is no evidence that it is ongoing.. .I have looked pretty hard. Exposure will help long term... but for the short term she is so terribly abusive that I'm completely miserable. I'm afraid every day that she is going to take the kids and move away.. I know she is looking for apartments and houses in this town 1000's of miles away, but logic tells me that it is a fantasy and not reality that she could leave with no financial support. How can I survive this abuse... if I could figure that out, I could probably focus on other things. It's getting so bad that I can't even think straight.
Sounds like you've got a good handle on how feasible it would be for her to leave.
When can you get into a Dr. to talk about getting ADs?
I can go get the AD's in the next week I think. Any advice as to what to say or do about the abuse if anything? When I ask her to stop she keeps "gaslighting" me; saying it's not her being disrespectful, it's me.
On the texts:
Married adults don't text ANY of these phrases to people of the opposite sex, outside of their immediate family:
"I love you", "I'm always there for you", "I miss you"
None of this is OK. This and your gut feeling is enough to convince any reasonable person as to what is happening. You are her husband and this PLUS the texts are plenty enough to ask other people for help with getting your wife to abandon this relationship and focus on your marriage. Your wife's reaction is incredibly damning as to what her intentions are, and most people will instinctively understand that.
Just imagine your wife going to your father in law with texts like the ones you are describing between you and another woman and the same types of concerns about the relationship, meanwhile you are distancing yourself and asking for a divorce. Do you have any doubt as to what conclusions people would draw about that?
Its possible that they talked this way before we were married because she has had this friend since they were little kids. Not that it's right to continue once you are married. I hear her talk similarly to her female friends. Under no circumstances do I think this is OK... but her mind is not right either. Something is wrong with her... or, her "taker" is so much control she can do whatever she wants without regard for me.
There is no evidence that it is ongoing.. .I have looked pretty hard.
What have you done to look pretty hard? Have you put a VAR in her vehicle? Have you put spyware on her phone or computer?
It is clear that once she found out that you were snooping she took this affair underground. You are only finding a few phone records because the rest are on a different phone, or under a different number. Are you SURE the number that is in her phone for the old high school girlfriend is REALLY the high school girlfriend and not actually the OM under a girl's name??? That is a very classic and easy wayward workaround to hide phone calls. If not under a different name, then a different phone. Purchasing a burner phone is very very easy. You have mentioned many times that he is long distance so therefore easy to track. Maybe that was the case in the era of landlines, but in today's world, not really.
You need to take this more seriously and stop underestimating the power of the addiction and the many MANY avenues to hide that addiction when the need arises, and it has.
There is no evidence that it is ongoing.. .I have looked pretty hard.
What have you done to look pretty hard? Have you put a VAR in her vehicle? Have you put spyware on her phone or computer?
It is clear that once she found out that you were snooping she took this affair underground. You are only finding a few phone records because the rest are on a different phone, or under a different number. Are you SURE the number that is in her phone for the old high school girlfriend is REALLY the high school girlfriend and not actually the OM under a girl's name??? That is a very classic and easy wayward workaround to hide phone calls. If not under a different name, then a different phone. Purchasing a burner phone is very very easy. You have mentioned many times that he is long distance so therefore easy to track. Maybe that was the case in the era of landlines, but in today's world, not really.
You need to take this more seriously and stop underestimating the power of the addiction and the many MANY avenues to hide that addiction when the need arises, and it has.
I am 99% sure that I'm not missing anything here. All the symptoms of withdrawal are there... but it could be depression or an extreme "quarrelsome nagging wife".. I just can't figure out what is going on inside here head but I am very certain that there is not much/any contact with the OM.
I think that a VAR might be a good idea to find out what she is saying to her friends... I really don't think I will find much.
From what I can tell, my wife is simply depressed and making my life a living hell. Her friends are an escape.. she drinks in house alone and talks to her female friend about drinking. She is not happy with her life, tell me that all the time, tells me it is my fault all the time.
Given that they are not really communicating, they don't see each other (1000's of miles away)... I can either prevent future trips or I can go and be by her side the entire time... I can further expose the affair but after all this... how long can this fantasy really last in her head if so few emotional needs are being met? how long do I give this plan A? She has other friends of the opposite sex... so I think she will just move on the the next one if she really wants to. We never had these problems though in our marriage when she was in love with me. She has gone for years without talking to any of these people.
When will you be doing the exposure?
Given that they are not really communicating, they don't see each other (1000's of miles away)... I can either prevent future trips or I can go and be by her side the entire time... I can further expose the affair but after all this... how long can this fantasy really last in her head if so few emotional needs are being met? how long do I give this plan A? She has other friends of the opposite sex... so I think she will just move on the the next one if she really wants to. We never had these problems though in our marriage when she was in love with me. She has gone for years without talking to any of these people.
Sir distance isnt a factor.
Many w aywards move thousands of miles away. One guy on here had his wife move out of the country to be with her affair partner.
I can do exposure now.. I have close friends & family email addresses. I'm thinking that if I do it.. I should go big... I'll engage legal support etc.. How do I get facebook contacts? Is there any way to contact Dr Harley directly to make sure this is the right thing before I spend all the time and money? I'm happy to spend whatever it takes to make sure this is all done professionally and is 100% the right thing to do.
Again... with this particular guy.. he has not much to lose and I can make life miserable for both of them, but I know that when I do, my wife might just move on to another opposite sex friend that has nothing to lose & no respect for marriage. She was looking for an escape from our marriage. This is more about us than about them.
Within the first year of us dating, I asked her to move away from all this crap and she did to be with me. I married her after 5 more years of her staying away from it. She had always been nothing but faithful to me.
The main reason that I think exposure is a good idea is a) to show her how far and deep I am willing to go to save our marriage b) as a means of holding her accountable to be faithful going forward and c) getting support from family and friends for our marriage and driving away those that don't.
You dont need legal support for exposure.
just read the thread Exposure 101 in MelodyLane signature and follow those instructions.
I can do exposure now.. I have close friends & family email addresses. I'm thinking that if I do it.. I should go big... I'll engage legal support etc.. How do I get facebook contacts? Is there any way to contact Dr Harley directly to make sure this is the right thing before I spend all the time and money? I'm happy to spend whatever it takes to make sure this is all done professionally and is 100% the right thing to do.
There is no need to spend money, contact Dr Harley or obtain legal support. If you read my exposure thread, you will see Dr Harley's quotes along with instructions on how to expose. He has already explained his position on exposure so contacting him to ask what he has already said is a waste of his time and yours.
Again... with this particular guy.. he has not much to lose and I can make life miserable for both of them, but I know that when I do, my wife might just move on to another opposite sex friend that has nothing to lose & no respect for marriage. She was looking for an escape from our marriage. This is more about us than about them.
You can "what if" the situation to death. This particular guy IS a problem TODAY so he should be dealt with. If your WW finds a replacement for him then you will find out after getting rid of THIS guy first. And if your wife is into being a serial cheater or simply refuses to ever protect your marriage then you are better off without her.
...to make sure this is the right thing before I spend all the time and money? I'm happy to spend whatever it takes to make sure this is all done professionally and is 100% the right thing to do.
I agree that you need to be strategic but that does not mean that you need to over think every reaction your wife may have. All waywards are anger and bitter with blame shifting towards the BS. That is to be EXPECTED.
Drunks are always angry at being cut off.
Unless you want a marriage that will always be filled with a third party, you need to take action and expose the loser OM to people of influence in both your WW and OM's life. That is how you kill the fantasy...with reality.
I think that you are in denial over no continued contact. They have just gotten smarter at hiding it from you. That is textbook wayward.
Read the exposure thread.
Stay cool and calm. Women love a strong man who will fight for them..
We can post radio clips of Dr. Harley saying affairs must be exposed (even if they are ended or in the past), we can refer you to our most experienced posters such as MelodyLane who have walked others through exposure thousands of times, etc etc.
But really, that's all unnecessary.
The TOS of this forum require that advice given be consistent with Dr. Harley's principles on marriage building and recovery. If any of us were saying anything in contradiction to what the man himself would tell you, the mods would delete the errant advice. Happens all of the time when people decide to offer their own non-MB advice to posters in situations like yours.
Nothing can make this process easier and the more you talk to people around you, the more they will discourage you from doing this. Friends, lawyers, therapists...most of them have little or no experience in the rather specific process of saving marriages from infidelity. The people here (and Dr. Harley) handle thousands of different cases per year (notice the over 60,000 members of this forum, most of them being other betrayed spouses seeking help).
No guarantee here. this is just the best shot you have.
OK.. I'm not worried about her being mad. She is already so mad.. why do I care? I have read exposure 101 and I'm ready to do it. I can have it done by the weekend.
What I am worried about is how/if she will retaliate... how will she hurt the kids? She is already using the kids against me at every turn to express her anger. What if she goes to an attorney and claims abuse or something like that.. don't women do this all the time to retaliate against their husbands?
I would also like to prevent her from going on the next trip. If I forbid the kids to go, can I legally do that? they are both our kids.. who has say over whether they are allowed to leave the state? She can always go by herself, but she will not leave without the kids.. and if she does, the locks are simply changed before she gets back. This is where I want a legal opinion. Anyone with experience with this?
Other posters can advise you as to if she can legally remove the kids from your home without consent. There are lots of people with practical experience her on that.
I can tell you that if they are older children, you must expose the affair to them as well. If they know what is happening, it will very much limit what your wife can do to them, because they will be armed with the truth.
Additionally, I would recommend installing a call recorder app on your smartphone (most are free) as well as wearing a VAR when you are around your wife. She could try to file a restraining order or domestic abuse charge, but she will not be expecting you to be taking these precautions, and having your interactions recorded will help exonerate you in any legal proceeding based on false allegations.
You can get a really good VAR from somewhere like Walmart or Radioshack for about $50. You can do that today.
What if she goes to an attorney and claims abuse or something like that.. don't women do this all the time to retaliate against their husbands?
She could but again you are getting sucked into "what ifs" again. If there are no police reports or anything of that nature, it is simply a claim. People can say all sorts of things, it doesn't mean they are true and that they will be believed. On a personal note, not all women cry abuse and retaliate against their husbands. As a woman, your comment is insulting. I hope this is not how you speak to your wife.
I would also like to prevent her from going on the next trip. If I forbid the kids to go, can I legally do that? they are both our kids.. who has say over whether they are allowed to leave the state? She can always go by herself, but she will not leave without the kids.. and if she does, the locks are simply changed before she gets back. This is where I want a legal opinion. Anyone with experience with this?
If you change the locks, she can still gain access to the house. You can try to lock her out but she can force the issue as you have no legal basis to deny her access. Generally one parent can take the children out of state without the other's permission. In a pending divorce, that would be another story. You should consult and attorney in your state so you understand your rights and can make informed decisions. Many attorneys offer a free consultation. You can also look up your state divorce code online. Even with an attorney consult, I recommend anyone to look at the code for himself and not simply rely on what the attorney says.
I can tell you that if they are older children, you must expose the affair to them as well. If they know what is happening, it will very much limit what your wife can do to them, because they will be armed with the truth.
Additionally, I would recommend installing a call recorder app on your smartphone (most are free) as well as wearing a VAR when you are around your wife. She could try to file a restraining order or domestic abuse charge, but she will not be expecting you to be taking these precautions, and having your interactions recorded will help exonerate you in any legal proceeding based on false allegations.
x 2
If WW has full access to your marital funds you should look at moving funds so she can't make a money grab either.
What if she goes to an attorney and claims abuse or something like that.. don't women do this all the time to retaliate against their husbands?
As a woman, your comment is insulting. I hope this is not how you speak to your wife.
No one should be insulted.. woman can and
some do this under the advice of their attorneys.. it's an unfortunate fact. I have seen it with other men going through divorce. The laws are stacked against men and against marriage unfortunately which is a real fear and it makes this hard. The other fact is that my wife is now completely irrational and abusive to me. She verbally abuses me, she has hit me, she emotionally abuses me, she steals money. She asks me for things and money just seconds before having sex. She tells my kids that I steal from them, I lie, and I take their toys. After all this, she completely gaslights me by saying that this is what I do. This is my reality. Of course I cannot say that to her because it would be a "disrespectful judgement"..
While I am off working to support my family, my wife sits at home and cheats on me. When I get home from work she abuses me relentlessly.. I don't hate her, and I'm not bitter.. but I despise her actions and I find no excuse for it but please understand what I am going through. I understand the "fog".. but someone that would treat someone they promised to love like this is capable of anything with no empathy whatsoever... that seems to be the other ugly, scary fact that I'm up against.
This post is not intended to be a venting session... but I need advice for a man going through this. I have two boy's and they need their dad to be around on the other end of this.
I do understand and you aren't telling posters anything they don't already know. Axe and I gave you advice on the questions you asked. Giving us yet another round of describing your wife's abuse is not helping anything. We get she is abusive and doesn't care.
got it.. and the VOR's are a good idea. I will carry one all the time now.
Some WW do put in the false abuse claims. A lot. There's a BH kit around here that might help.
Exposure to your kids will protect them more than anything.
Suggestion the first: Click "notify" at the bottom of this note and ask the moderator to move this thread to Surviving an Affair. You certainly know why.
Suggestion the second: Read this below, and decide whether or not to fight!
NEVERGUESSED'S BETRAYED HUSBAND SURVIVAL KIT
1- KEEP ALL THESE ARRANGEMENTS SECRET FROM YOUR WAYWARD WIFE!
2 � Put a keylogger on any computer you can access that she might use.
3 � Put a spy program on any cell that she might use. ("Eblaster" can cover #4 as well.)
4 � Put a GPS on her car, reporting to your computer.
5 � Put a VAR in her car, and in any room she might use to take "personal" calls
6 � Get a mini-audio-recorder, and have it in your possession and "on" whenever in her presence.
7 � Put together an e-address list of anyone who might have influence on her � parents, siblings (sisters, especially), coworkers, college friends, clergy, hairdresser, anyone.
8 � Put together a similar list for the POSOM.
WHEN YOU HAVE SUFFICIENT EVIDENCE,
9 � Put together the electronic evidence for each AP.
10 - Write a cover note for your wife's contacts, to the tune of: "I must unhappily inform you that my wife, XXXXXX, is carrying on an illicit affair with YYYYYY. I am hoping to recover our marriage, and ask if you have any influence over her, to urge her to abandon her cheating lifestyle and return to me and our family. Her cell number is 111-222-3333"
11 � Write a similar note to POSOM's contacts.
12 � Send out both packages, to all contacts at one time.
13 � Brace yourself.
Yeah, as b_r said this is all pretty standard fare for a wayward wife. They usually get very angry/vindictive. If you haven't already you'll hear "I haven't loved you for a long time/I've wanted to leave you for a long time" or "I never loved you", etc etc. She will ignore you, throw away gifts that you give her, call you controlling or manipulative, etc. Women in the fog are ANGRY with their husband normally, I've seen it here a hundred times. It's like they've all got a script on some of these things.
I went through all of that, had restraining orders filed against me, etc etc. None of it stuck in court, BTW. I received excellent advice here and was prepared for it.
You are very scared of your wife right now, that almost jumps off the page in your posts. You need to think about this more strategically.
Every precautionary step you can discreetly take such as setting up snooping, getting phone/voice recorders, protecting your finances, etc takes power away from your wayward wife.
A wide exposure is going to take a LOT of power away from her to misbehave because everyone is going to be watching her like she's got a spotlight on her. She'll tell you that the world is going to end for you but as long as you are prepared, you will know generally what her options are instead of being afraid of the unknown.
As far as being upset...know who your allies are amongst your friends and family. Once you expose, these people will want to help you. When you're having a rough night, give 'em a call or otherwise let them know, they will want to help you out. A tremendous benefit to exposure is it gains support for the betrayed spouse.
Alpine,
I would also seek an attorney at this point, just to be prepared for the POSSIBILITY of craziness in regards to the kids.
False protection/restraining orders are filed all the time against betrayed spouses, happened to me.(it was also dismissed at the hearing)
I would look at locking down your cash/assets in preparation for the POSSIBILITY of craziness.
AX is SPOT ON, you are afraid of your wife right now. We all were afraid of our wayward.
EXPOSURE and taking precautions helps you take back the power and reduce the fear.
Get that VAR, it will be your best friend.
meant to be addressed to Typicalman
Should WW get a copy of what is sent out? Should I be home with her or far away when it happens?
Your WW should not be sent a copy of the exposure letter/FB message. She already knows she is cheating so it's not news to her.
I would be at home, and prepared in the ways we have described above. People often expose while the WS is out of the home (e.g. at work), and this may be easier for you if possible.
There's no way to soften the blow here for her, so even showing her what you sent to people will not help.
You need to remember that her anger stems from the fact that she cannot have what she wants: a fantasy relationship with her OM where you and other obstacles are out of her way.
It has very little to do with anything you can do or say right now. Other than avoiding love busters and politely trying to meet her emotional needs, there's not really anything you can do for her/say to her that is going to put much of a dent in her anger.
So don't worry about her reactions, it's not about you. It's about the affair.
Should WW get a copy of what is sent out? Should I be home with her or far away when it happens?
I would go to a safe, quiet place to do your exposures so you are not interrupted. She will see a copy of it when others contact her.
Also, how old are your children? Any children over age 4 should be informed of the affair and given the OM's full name. They need to know who the enemy is.
Sir I sent my exposure letters from work computer.
They can also be sent from your favorite coffee shop.
It is important that you follow the instructions in the Exposure thread carefully.
taking steps each day to prepare for exposure..there is alot to do!
I got a major piece of feedback from the WW last night as to why she is so angry. I don't think anyone here will be supprized by it, but I am still processing it. Last night she was somewhat pleasant to be around.. almost night and day from the day before. A big "but" though... I picked up my cell phone to check a work email or look at something, she would say "texting your girlfriend ???" I would just as why she would say such a thing. This happened a couple of times. Finally... she made a comment back... "how does it make you feel?"
She is just horribly angry with me for accusing her of an affair. I think she might genuinely feel like she did nothing wrong. Infact, the last day that we had any sort of loving relationship was right before our counseling session where I brought up her EA and asked her to stop contact. Is is possible that in her mind, she did nothing wrong? In her mind, I really am the bad-guy for violating her privacy and also accusing her of a horrible thing that she didn't do... I guess the more and more she reacts, the more and more text book this becomes.
The truth is, when she said "how would you feel".. the reality is.. not having cheated, I actually feel good that my wife would be concerned about me enough to accuse me of cheating. I don't feel angry at all by her accusation... only that I want to be more transparent to set her mind at ease. I completely do not relate to nor understand her anger at all if she really felt falsely accused. Do women think differently than men in this way?
A few months ago, I suspected markos of an affair. I immediately started snooping. When he found out I was checking up on him, he went to great lengths to do anything I wanted to prove his innocence. He went to great lengths to make it EASIER for me to check up on him. He never once got angry with me.
Contrast that to 5 years ago when I was hiding an emotional affair from my husband. I blew up at him any time he tried to check up on me. I blew up at him any time he said anything that might have sounded like he thought I was up to something. I blew up at him to scare him off, to make him back down, so that I could feel safe in what I wanted to do.
People who are innocent do not get angry when their spouse suspects an affair.
Your wife is not innocent. She's not angry because you've hurt her feelings by accusing her of an affair. She's angry because you're hitting close to the mark, and it doesn't feel good. Darkness does not like the light.
And really, it doesn't matter if she calls it an affair or not. Who cares what she wants to call her "friendship" (that's the word I used too, btw). It's inappropriate. It's hurtful. It harms her marriage. It needs to end.
When the wayward starts screaming about privacy, then you know they are having at the very least an inappropriate relationship. This is a common tactic by the wayward, to try to make you feel guilty and get you to back off. She is completely ON script as how a wayward acts and what they say.
In a marriage, privacy is a marriage killer. Privacy is what you want when you use the toilet. Secrecy is what a wayward wants when they are doing something they don't want anyone to find out about. Why? Because it is wrong, and they know it and would be ashamed and embarrassed if anyone found out.
She is angry because you took away her drug and she is/was addicted to that drug.
When you finally expose, brace yourself for extreme anger and wrath. Be prepared as you have been warned, it sounds like your wayward has a hair trigger at this point.
taking steps each day to prepare for exposure..there is alot to do!
I got a major piece of feedback from the WW last night as to why she is so angry. I don't think anyone here will be supprized by it, but I am still processing it. Last night she was somewhat pleasant to be around.. almost night and day from the day before. A big "but" though... I picked up my cell phone to check a work email or look at something, she would say "texting your girlfriend ???" I would just as why she would say such a thing. This happened a couple of times. Finally... she made a comment back... "how does it make you feel?"
She is just horribly angry with me for accusing her of an affair. I think she might genuinely feel like she did nothing wrong. Infact, the last day that we had any sort of loving relationship was right before our counseling session where I brought up her EA and asked her to stop contact. Is is possible that in her mind, she did nothing wrong? In her mind, I really am the bad-guy for violating her privacy and also accusing her of a horrible thing that she didn't do... I guess the more and more she reacts, the more and more text book this becomes.
The truth is, when she said "how would you feel".. the reality is.. not having cheated, I actually feel good that my wife would be concerned about me enough to accuse me of cheating. I don't feel angry at all by her accusation... only that I want to be more transparent to set her mind at ease. I completely do not relate to nor understand her anger at all if she really felt falsely accused. Do women think differently than men in this way?
Do not psychoanalyze their drunken ramblings.
Waywards think differently to everyone.
T
taking steps each day to prepare for exposure..there is alot to do!
I got a major piece of feedback from the WW last night as to why she is so angry. I don't think anyone here will be supprized by it, but I am still processing it. Last night she was somewhat pleasant to be around.. almost night and day from the day before. A big "but" though... I picked up my cell phone to check a work email or look at something, she would say "texting your girlfriend ???" I would just as why she would say such a thing. This happened a couple of times. Finally... she made a comment back... "how does it make you feel?"
She is just horribly angry with me for accusing her of an affair. I think she might genuinely feel like she did nothing wrong. Infact, the last day that we had any sort of loving relationship was right before our counseling session where I brought up her EA and asked her to stop contact. Is is possible that in her mind, she did nothing wrong? In her mind, I really am the bad-guy for violating her privacy and also accusing her of a horrible thing that she didn't do... I guess the more and more she reacts, the more and more text book this becomes.
The truth is, when she said "how would you feel".. the reality is.. not having cheated, I actually feel good that my wife would be concerned about me enough to accuse me of cheating. I don't feel angry at all by her accusation... only that I want to be more transparent to set her mind at ease. I completely do not relate to nor understand her anger at all if she really felt falsely accused. Do women think differently than men in this way?
She is angry because she is guilty. Her reaction is a ploy to throw you off balance and get you to stop accusing her. She is still having the affair.
Even the dumbest wayward knows how to throw an accuser off balance.
Dr Bill Harley: "One of the most common smoke-screens used by unfaithful spouses is to express shock that their spouse would be so distrusting as to ask questions about their secret second life. They try to make it seem as if such questions are an affront to their dignity, and a sign of incredible disrespect. They figure that the best defense is a good offense, and so they try to make their spouses feel guilty about asking too many questions.
I am a firm believer in letting each spouse do as much snooping around as they want. Nothing should be kept secret in marriage, and no questions should be left unanswered. If a spouse objects to such scrutiny, what might he or she be hiding?"
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html
I got a major piece of feedback from the WW last night as to why she is so angry.
No, you didn't. She attempted to gaslight you. As Prisca and others pointed out, her objections to you are ridiculous and disingenuous.
She is angry with you because you are an obstacle to her affair. That is the
only reason she is angry. I wouldn't spend any more time trying to "figure out" why she is angry, because she will not cease being angry with you until her affair is dead as a doornail.
If you want to fix "angry with you", focus on ending the affair.
How old are your children?
kids: 5 & 7
Another question.. how far should exposure go.. close friends & family only or everyone we come in contact with.. kids teachers, other mom's, etc.. I have almost 50 contacts already... is that too much?
Do women think differently than men in this way?
Well, I am a woman and prior to discovering MB I didn't question the appropriatess of OS friendships and had no familiarity with the concept of an "emotional" affair.
If my husband thought I was having an affair my immediate reaction would be to feel terrible for him that he was living with that kind of concern, try to understand what I was doing that worried him, reassure him that he was safe, and stop whatever I was doing that bothered him. Certainly no single "friend" was more important than our marriage.
On the other hand, when he calls me out on something I do that I know is a flaw of mine - like what a slob I am - my immediate reaction (prior to MB) was to become indignant, maybe even outraged! and throw a handful of his much worse transgressions in his face. "
How dare he question something so superficial as a little mess when he did ABC and hasn't done XYZ? How does he think that makes me feel..." Not good for the marriage, but temporarily effective as his reaction to that was usually to slink away. Still fuming, but also feeling guilty himself and quiet about my flaws. For now...
So, No, I don't think women are different than men in this way. However, one way Women may be different is typically being more nimble verbally - able to recall a detail list of the man's every flaw and digression and use it to swat aside whatever concern he is trying to express.
kids: 5 & 7
Another question.. how far should exposure go.. close friends & family only or everyone we come in contact with.. kids teachers, other mom's, etc.. I have almost 50 contacts already... is that too much?
TypicalMan, 50 is not too much, just be sure that you have the important ones, Friends, Family, Mentors...Also, you DO need to expose to your kids. They are old enough to understand and learn from this. You will do them no favors by "protecting" them from this. Your wife WILL go ballistic and accuse your actions of hurting them, but Dr. Harley advocates telling children of sufficient age to understand. Remember, your exposure is not hurting anyone, the actions that need to be exposed are the ones that hurt these people. Exposure helps to reduce the chance that these people will be hurt by such actions again.
Also, on a side note, I was at one time married to a serial cheater who was quite good at browbeating me into being afraid to execute Dr. Harley's plan fully. She kept on cheating and I ended up divorced.
I experienced a lot of self doubt when I listened to what my XWW said, sounds like you do too. My advice would be for you to write down your plan to break up this affair (which is ongoing even if it is dormant), your plan to Plan A, your plan to care for yourself (exercise, family time, renewing hobbies) because you are going to need to recreate your emotional energy after each encounter with your WW.
Then WORK YOUR PLAN. Do not listen to the hurtful crazy-talk, just work your plan. You will find yourself clear headed and feeling in control because YOU will be determining your actions, not allowing your actions to be dependent on your WW's warped view of reality.
Once you are in that place and YOU KNOW you are doing a good job because your can see all the checkmarks on your plan. You will have the confidence and surety to offer your WW a choice...she can have her boyfriend(s) and her affair supporters, or she can have her family. You are right in your previous posts that you cannot MAKE her listen, but you can LURE her in with the changes in your attitudes and changes in your actions that make you into the man you want to be. I know you do not want to be a sniveling coward who is afraid of his emotional destroyer of a WW. You want to the be man that has set his course and executed his plan.
Is there any example script for talking to young children about affairs?
"Mommy has a boyfriend. Married people are not supposed to have boyfriends, and it hurts your Daddy a whole lot."
Is there any example script for talking to young children about affairs?
When moms and dads get married they do not have BF/GF and go on dates with them. Well mom has a BF his name is ____ ____ and mom is going on dates with him. What mom is doing is known as having an affair.
Don't underestimate your childrens' abilities to understand. I have children about the same age, and I am amazed sometimes how well they understand what an affair is and how wrong and hurtful it is. Children understand a lot more than we give them credit for sometimes.
Update.. still getting ready for this, compiling contacts, drafting letter etc...
I stepped up the snooping with VAR's etc.. Truth is that she seems very clean now; no secret phones or underground. The occasional contact with the OM seems to be very incidental only. What really bothers me is that she outright still chose to refuse to cut off contact with a "friend" over saving her marriage.... The extreme anger continues.. there are OK times and really bad times.
Question.. how do you respond to the numerous people that will say... "this is only a friend".. which is my WW's primary defense. In an emotional affair with a long time friend... how do you prove with out a shadow of a doubt that it was more than just a "friend" coming to the rescue at a time of need? I want to be a well armed as possible because this is how she will defend herself and her friends will also defend her.
Update.. still getting ready for this, compiling contacts, drafting letter etc...
I stepped up the snooping with VAR's etc.. Truth is that she seems very clean now; no secret phones or underground. The occasional contact with the OM seems to be very incidental only. What really bothers me is that she outright still chose to refuse to cut off contact with a "friend" over saving her marriage.... The extreme anger continues.. there are OK times and really bad times.
An "incidental" affair? I don't think so. That is like an alcoholic changing the name of his drinks to "business drinks" and pretending to be sober. Any contact is a resumption of the affair. I suspect her "incidental" contact is a show for you because she knows you are snooping and she knows you will brush it off as a "friendship" as I see you doing on this thread. So her ruse worked!!
Question.. how do you respond to the numerous people that will say... "this is only a friend".. which is my WW's primary defense.
When you expose, you send them your evidence so they can SEE it is not a friendship. Do you tell your friend, Joe, at work that "you love him and miss him?" I don't think so.
Is there a reason you are taking so long to expose?
Update.. still getting ready for this, compiling contacts, drafting letter etc...
I stepped up the snooping with VAR's etc.. Truth is that she seems very clean now; no secret phones or underground. The occasional contact with the OM seems to be very incidental only. What really bothers me is that she outright still chose to refuse to cut off contact with a "friend" over saving her marriage.... The extreme anger continues.. there are OK times and really bad times.
Question.. how do you respond to the numerous people that will say... "this is only a friend".. which is my WW's primary defense. In an emotional affair with a long time friend... how do you prove with out a shadow of a doubt that it was more than just a "friend" coming to the rescue at a time of need? I want to be a well armed as possible because this is how she will defend herself and her friends will also defend her.
Sir, a proper exposure can be done within 24-72 hours after reading the Exposure 101 thread.
Question.. how do you respond to the numerous people that will say... "this is only a friend".. which is my WW's primary defense. In an emotional affair with a long time friend... how do you prove with out a shadow of a doubt that it was more than just a "friend" coming to the rescue at a time of need? I want to be a well armed as possible because this is how she will defend herself and her friends will also defend her.
Two things:
1. "This is a MALE FRIEND who she has exchanged texts with saying X, Y and Z. This is an affair."
2. "I am her husband and her relationship with this MALE FRIEND bothers me greatly and is a romantic relationship. This is an affair."
You are her
husband! It is NOT up to other people to decide whether or not her relationship with this man is OK. That is YOUR call, just as it would be your wife's call on a relationship you would have with another female.
I've been in your shoes because that was my WW's defense as well. Do not debate this point with anyone. Be firm about your position, stick to your facts, and speak to them like a broken record.
Stop for a second, and think about how absurd it is that anyone you expose to would presume to know more about this than you. Do they
live with your wife? Have they been
married to your wife for 8 years where they can read her behavior the way you can by this point? Could they
possibly be able to pick up the subtle clues you can on her behavior that has changed? Have
they consulted with a support forum based on the works of a PhD psychologist who specializes in infidelity and marriage crisis and has written some of the most prominent and respected books on the topic?
I had all of these thoughts in my head when I was in your shoes but didn't have the words, and in retrospect I've thought all of those things so I'm passing them along to you. Not necessarily to say to these people (because with many of them it won't help) but for you to think about so these people don't throw you off balance.
Some people are just going to stick their head in the sand. That's just how these things go. Expose to those people and let the cards fall. If they want to turn it into a debate about what's happened, I'd be like a broken record. Some people will just get angry and stop talking to you. They'll be in denial. I can't even tell you all of the nonsense I heard from religious objections to exposure to people trying to say my wife "wasn't that kind of a person".
If you've heard the term "the **** hitting the fan", that's what is about to happen here. Don't be scared of it. Somewhere in your gut, I know this whole deal makes you feel angry and hurt, because it is very
wrong! You need to channel that a bit here and do not worry about other people.
It's your marriage on the line, not any of theirs.
Do not worry yourself how they respond. What's important is that they know. You don't need to debate them.
Is there a reason you're taking so long to expose?
I have a full time job supporting a family and my WW is with me/ knows what I am up to every other second. I am targeting more than 100 people and searching for email addresses etc... I know that my WW's family is completely dysfunctional and won't help.. so I need to target everyone else I can think of and I want to make this big because I only have one shot. I don't have a facebook page and never have... so as soon as I go on facebook, she will know that something is up.
You don't know who will respond and who will not, at the least it will surprise you.
I would expose to WW's family anyways, even if you do not expect support.
Any ideas on how to get email addresses from high school class other than facebook?
Any ideas on how to get email addresses from high school class other than facebook?
Facebook is usually the best tool for finding email adresses
100 people? You don't have to expose to the whole town or her entire high school class. People will gossip anyway. Get it done.
Your exposure targets should be family, friends, clergy, and employers (if it is a workplace affair). These will be the most effective, even if they don't "support" you.
the only people my wife cares about now are high school friends and the OM is from her highschool class.. so I figured this was my target audience
the only people my wife cares about now are high school friends and the OM is from her highschool class.. so I figured this was my target audience
I would expose to her family, close friends, the OM's family. Get a Facebook page set up so you can do this. This was all in my instructions. You don't need to expose to 100 people.
. I know that my WW's family is completely dysfunctional and won't help..
You don't know who will or won't help.
It's also important to give everyone the CHANCE to help. If they decide to support the A, then you then have good reason to exclude them from your lives.
Definitely the most useful part of expose was the very neat 'friends' and 'enemies' list it created. Like ML says I couldn't have predicted it beforehand - although I thought I knew these people, exposure usually has some surprise reactions.
Good. Now her wrath will be furious, her retribution swift.
make sure you keep a voice recorder hidden on you at all times.
Good. Now, gird yourself. Be strong. You are armed with the truth. Remember that when you feel weak.
Who did you expose to on WW's side?
Who did you expose to on OM's side?
Family, friends, church. 60 contacts in all. Asking others to help with om. I asked him to back off.
My kids are really upset. .. even the 5 yo.
TM, i know this is so very hard, but you did the right thing. Your children were vulnerable as long as they didn't know. Just hang in there and be strong. You did the right thing.
My kids are really upset. .. even the 5 yo.
I can relate.
I also exposed to my 5 year old and im glad I did. Otherwise the kids often blame themselves when marriages fall apart
Hold the course now. For usual WW responses are to show anger, I am divorcing you, I was going to end the affair but after this not now. These rants are to scare you so that you are then to afraid to expose the affair any more.
Let her rant. Do not respond rather change the subject, such as I need a cookie would you like one. Keep plan A'ing.
her friends are just telling her about it now.. I am bracing. my friends and family seem to be supportive... her friends seems to be supporting her affair.
I cannot believe that their are people out their that would support an affair... what do I do with them?
Should I try to call my wife today or try to stay at work for a long time? what do I do now?
My kids are really upset. .. even the 5 yo.
But they now know they can speak to you about anything puzzling or scary. They couldn't before.
I cannot believe that their are people out their that would support an affair... what do I do with them?
Put them on your 'to be excluded from our new life in marital recovery' list. Watch them like hawks. I wouldn't bother replying to them. Thank your supporters though.
Should I try to call my wife today or try to stay at work for a long time? what do I do now?
You won't need to seek her out. She's coming. Just brace yourself for when she does get hold of you. When she does just say you will not comply with cover ups, you are trying to save the marriage. Say you love her and you are sorry her affair is so embarrassing for her - but that's why it has to stop.
Your next task is simply to endure her rage calmly without buckling. When she sees you won't buckle the reality will hit her further that you are not going to roll over.
Don't take ages talking to her - just simply don't react to her and walk away and go do something else if you need to.
I cannot believe that their are people out their that would support an affair... what do I do with them?
Cut them out of your life.
her friends are just telling her about it now.. I am bracing. my friends and family seem to be supportive... her friends seems to be supporting her affair.
I hope that if I make self destructive decisions my friends will call me out on it and hold me accountable. She must have terrible friends.
She has one good friend and a bunch of terrible (alcoholic friends), and a bunch of boyfriends. That's why we live so far away. She left all that behind when we go married. Now they are the most important thing to her.
Is this really going to work?
Is this really going to work?
Sometimes it works instantly. However more commonly it is just the 'start' of the affair ending. Exposure causes lots of trouble because they have been lying to people and are now caught out.
They pretty much always have a fight about it, they can't hide what they are doing any more, they lose the respect of any good friends.
Sometimes the support of bad friends (who probably knew about the A all along) keeps it going a while - but this is OK. Bad friends who do not really care about them will eventually let them down and they will start to miss their good friends.
The relationship comes under a lot of pressure - "I lost my realtionship with my family for you and you aren't making me happy (When this was still theoretical you said you would jump when I say jump)".
The kids know. The OP starts to feel like there is future and the step-monster fantasy falls apart and has no interest in being around them. Plus the kids will tell you if he comes round.
It can take up to 2 years for an A to end - 95 pc of them do within 2 years after exposure. If nothing else you have ran off a potential bad stepfather. This may work instantly, it may take time - but you have the support you need NOW to heal, to parent, to be more effective in this crisis.
It not only helps end the affair, but it also provides support to the betrayed spouse, giving him or her stamina to hold out for ultimate recovery."
She will not answer my calls but she is making alot of calls to others. I don't know what is going on and I don't know what to do. My attorney says not to go home... but I am missing my kids and I am not with them right now.
Just calm yourself.
Why would he tell you not to go home? It is your home!!
If you want to save your marriage, you need to go home.
Why is your attorney telling you not to go home?
She will not answer my calls but she is making alot of calls to others. I don't know what is going on and I don't know what to do. My attorney says not to go home... but I am missing my kids and I am not with them right now.
Why are you talking to an attorney about this?!
It's key you go home and look unflappable.
He thinks she will call the police and claim abuse. I think I should go home and be with my kids. I don't know what awaits when I get there. My best guess is that she will lock herself in a room and not talk to me. I am a mess right now because she will not take my calls so I don't know what she is doing... I would probably feel better if I could hear her voice even if it's yelling at me.
Take a voice-activated recorder with you so you can record everything.
You need to go home. Don't fight with her. Don't debate the exposure. Simply go home. Remain calm.
Wear a VAR if you are worried about allegations of abuse. But go home.
Keep in mind she will likely be VERY ANGRY. But that's to be expected of a WW.
He thinks she will call the police and claim abuse. I think I should go home and be with my kids. I don't know what awaits when I get there. My best guess is that she will lock herself in a room and not talk to me. I am a mess right now because she will not take my calls so I don't know what she is doing... I would probably feel better if I could hear her voice even if it's yelling at me.
You better go home and stay home. Keep a recorder on you at ALL times. (I slept with one in my pants when I was in similar boat)
I am a mess right now because she will not take my calls so I don't know what she is doing... I would probably feel better if I could hear her voice even if it's yelling at me.
You need to get control of yourself and your emotions. You cannot repeatedly call her or go home 'a mess.' You need to go home with a calm, collected attitude and one that knows you did the right thing and NOT be willing to give into her anger/allegations/demands or whatever she throws at you.
Can you do this?
What are you planning to say to her if she does answer? What is your game plan?
He thinks she will call the police and claim abuse. I think I should go home and be with my kids. I don't know what awaits when I get there. My best guess is that she will lock herself in a room and not talk to me. I am a mess right now because she will not take my calls so I don't know what she is doing... I would probably feel better if I could hear her voice even if it's yelling at me.
It's still textbook. Being treated like leper. Means you hit a target!
One of her best friends is now on our side
Way to go
Are you going to go home?
I will go home when my work day is done. It will be the hardest door to open and walk through.
I will go home when my work day is done. It will be the hardest door to open and walk through.
Well do it. Whatever you do, do NOT let her talk you into leaving your home.
Read this thread also about the dangers of leaving your home:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2795590&Searchpage=1&Main=147437&Words=%22men+do+not+leave+your+home%22&Search=true#Post2795590
You know what is strange... my wife read his needs her needs. There is a chapter on surviving an affair which includes exposure. I told her in counseling that people would know if she did not stop the relationship. How could she possibly be surprised by this? Could someone be living in the fog that much?
I will go home when my work day is done. It will be the hardest door to open and walk through.
Apprehensiveness is harder to bear than action. Just get it over with. Once you do it, then it is done.
As long as you don't lovebust or get drawn into a big conversation you're good.
You know what is strange... my wife read his needs her needs. There is a chapter on surviving an affair which includes exposure. I told her in counseling that people would know if she did not stop the relationship. How could she possibly be surprised by this? Could someone be living in the fog that much?
Yes, yes and yes.
Come to that how could ANYONE believe that the spouse they have betrayed will keep it quiet for you so you can carry on your affair?
Yet pretty much without exception they all seem to howl like you have not told dear loved ones the truth -but like you have stuck pins in their eyes and ripped their pants off and set fire to them.
Her behaviour is atypical. If she were being OK with you - I would be worried you had missed a target.
We've seen it all before. It is all just so much noise and is supposed to get you to back off and stop messing with her affair. Don't fall for it.
You know what is strange... my wife read his needs her needs. There is a chapter on surviving an affair which includes exposure. I told her in counseling that people would know if she did not stop the relationship. How could she possibly be surprised by this? Could someone be living in the fog that much?
I told my wife that eventually everyone would know that our relationship ended because of her affair. She said she didn't care what other people thought, because she's going to live her own life from now on. But when I exposed the affair, she was furious! You could say I warned her, and you could say she gave me permission. Your wife is angry because she's wayward. They all get angry when their fantasy is threatened.
I told my wife that eventually everyone would know that our relationship ended because of her affair. She said she didn't care what other people thought, because she's going to live her own life from now on.
Yup - seen that one too. The 'I obviously don't care so you should feel hopeless and give up' gambit.
Every word out of a wayward's mouth is geared towards protecting the affair addiction.
Our neighbors invited me over to their house tonight to talk. These particular folks will be hard for my wife to ignore because we have a really special connection to them (I won't explain here). What should I ask them to say or do? I'm starting to create a strong line up of folks that can influence my wife.
Our neighbors invited me over to their house tonight to talk. These particular folks will be hard for my wife to ignore because we have a really special connection to them (I won't explain here). What should I ask them to say or do? I'm starting to create a strong line up of folks that can influence my wife.
TM, first CONGRATULATIONS on pulling the trigger. As far as what you say to anyone about this, is that you love your wife, you want to rebuild your marriage and protect your marriage and family from all harmful influences, you would appreciate their help your endeavor.
I just wanted to send my support for fighting for your marriage and using what ever means and friends you have to, you landed in a very important place here, there are a lot of caring folks that will walk you through every step to give you the best chance possible���.be strong and don't get caught up in the anger the fog babble she will spew about you ruining everything with the exposure��..it's time to shine a light on what is trying to ruin your marriage��you did what is right
You have had great advice so far. So just follow it.
Our neighbors invited me over to their house tonight to talk. These particular folks will be hard for my wife to ignore because we have a really special connection to them (I won't explain here). What should I ask them to say or do? I'm starting to create a strong line up of folks that can influence my wife.
First off, do they know of the affair? If not, tell them about it and ask for their support.
Wife took the kids and left. What do I do?
Wife took the kids and left. What do I do?
This is what I did when it happened to me:
Call the school in the morning and ask if they are present. If they are not present, call Children Services and the Police.
Check your bank account balances.
Is there any way to get them back. ..they are my kids too.
This happened to me also.
You will likely be unable to get them back tonight.
If you are calm and collected you can call the police but I doubt they will act. They typically will tell you to contact your attorney.
If you think your wife is unstable and may harm the kids then certainly tell the police that.
If the police call you she will probably tell them that you are mentally unstable and not safe to be around. That's what my ex did. They will not use force of law to return the kids.
I know this is hard but try to get a good night sleep if possible.
I came back to an empty house a few times but got custody of the kids during divorce.
One night is not worth loosing sleep over
What can I do to get them back?
My wife's family is completely supporting her. They are calling the exposure the last act of abuse...same gaslighting I have endured from her.
What can I do to get them back?
Call your school this morning and see if they were brought to school.
Also contact a family law attorney. Tell the attorney that you are trying to save your marriage but want to protect your parental rights and want full custody of the kids if she leaves.
typical wayward action, punish you with the children. Sickening really the lengths the adulterers will go to protect their behavior.
You should have already retained an attorney, get him to file for custody immediately. Depending on your jurisdiction, he/she should know what to do, if not find a new one.
typical wayward action, punish you with the children. Sickening really the lengths the adulterers will go to protect their behavior.
You should have already retained an attorney, get him to file for custody immediately. Depending on your jurisdiction, he/she should know what to do, if not find a new one.
Some attorneys are lazy and do not want to work for their money. So light a fire under him. Important thing is to sit tight and not react to WW's scare tactics. WW can only keep the kids short term. If kids are not in school then have lawyer make a motion to have the kids to be returned home because it is in the kids best interest to not have their lives interrupted and pulled out of school and be moved around as gypsies.
Important thing is to sit tight and not react to WW's scare tactics. WW can only keep the kids short term.
.
Yes. This is ill thought out pouting. She's not thinking about long term issues or about the kids or the fact she'll have to face people eventually.
Plan legally for all eventualities.
Chin up.
What can I do to get them back?
Jedi has been through this. He now has custody of his children.
Listen to him and do what he suggests.
tm, I hope things look brighter for you this morning. Follow through with Jedi's suggestions.
Follow through with what Jedi told you to do:
Call the school in the morning and ask if they are present. If they are not present, call Children Services and the Police.
Check your bank account balances.
...
Also contact a family law attorney. Tell the attorney that you are trying to save your marriage but want to protect your parental rights and want full custody of the kids if she leaves.
Check her credit card activity online. Have you secured your bank accounts?
She is on the run with my kids. I am horribly scared for them. Please help
She is on the run with my kids. I am horribly scared for them. Please help
At this point, I would call the police and see if they can bring your children home. I am sure her goal is to terrify and punish you using your children. Just be calm and get your kids.
TM, it is not uncommon for a WS to act crazy for a few days after exposure in order to punish their BS and/or get a reaction. Don't allow yourself to be manipulated by her erratic behavior; that will make it worse!
She is on the run with my kids. I am horribly scared for them. Please help
Did you do this?
Follow through with what Jedi told you to do:
Call the school in the morning and ask if they are present. If they are not present, call Children Services and the Police.
Check your bank account balances.
...
Also contact a family law attorney. Tell the attorney that you are trying to save your marriage but want to protect your parental rights and want full custody of the kids if she leaves.
Check her credit card activity online. Have you secured your bank accounts?
Did you do this?
She is on the run with my kids. I am horribly scared for them. Please help
At this point, I would call the police and see if they can bring your children home. I am sure her goal is to terrify and punish you using your children. Just be calm and get your kids.
Did you do this?
She is on the run with my kids. I am horribly scared for them. Please help
typicalman, people ARE helping. Are you listening and following up with what they recommend?
typical,
It sounds like you're panicking and I can understand that, but take the spot-on advice from Jedi, Melody and NebDane - I.e. continue to check with their schools early each day, retain an attorney to represent you and your rights at this time, and file a report with your local police. I suspect that she is seeking shelter with her family members at this time to scare you. If her family lives near you, tell the police your situation and that you are concerned, and ask them to check with the family members to make sure both your W and your kids are okay. I agree with Melody in not trying to persist in trying to contact your W. Focus on the well-being of your kids.
Just saw your last post and it's not clear what you mean.
Tom
TM, she can't live off enabling friends indefinitely and you have legal rights she can't ignore. She has no plan whatsoever other than to make you panic. When her plan falls apart, yours will be intact.
Please give us an update, typical man. Did she come home?
She is on the run. Very far from here.
She is on the run. Very far from here.
What action have you taken?
If she has fled as you described, get an attorney and get to court. This is what emergency hearings are for.
You are at war now, so you need to have that mentality. Your wayward has shown her true colors.
You are fighting for your marriage, but MOST importantly your KIDS.
DO NOT listen to any nonsense from her or her camp about exposure. It will a tactic they use, guaranteed.
You are in a legal fight now.
Tell us your updates, and plans.
Is there a leg to stand on?
Is there a leg to stand on?
What on earth are you talking about?
Why are you not answering any questions?
My wife saw an attorney, then fled the state with my children. There is no "rational" reason for her to have any fear to stay here... she is probably reasoning that the exposure is her reason and justification for leaving. I would not think that there is any legal basis for taking off with the children due to exposure particularly because a man is just trying to save his marriage and keep his family together. I am doing everything my attorney has advised to get my children (and hopefully my wife too) returned safely. I love all of them and their safety and well being is my primary concern. Is there any legal basis for or against exposure? What is wrong with asking friends and family to help support your marriage and how could that be justification for leaving with the children? I never thought my wife would leave our safe and loving home with our children.
Something doesn't make sense.
Your wife left the state?
Has your attorney filed with a Court to send Marshals to retrieve the children?
What is being done?
Does she have a job? How does she pay for motels and gas?
She has some of her own money stashed away. She put her attorney on my cc before I had a chance to shut it down. She will most likely go to her family who will support her in the short run. It's clear that she has had escape plans for some time.
Have you filed a police report? If not, do that asap. You need legal documentation of her erratic behavior. Also, start a journal. Document her actions, conversations with her or legal people, etc.
There is no way she put this together this kidnapping overnight.she was planning this for a while. You did not provoke this. It would have happened no matter what.
Late to this but here's some thoughts.
1. Cops probably won't be able to do anything. No divorce action has been filed so either parent has 100% custody. Absent a court order....she can travel wherever she wants with her children. You may have to file a petition to get them back. Kids are truant so that's a possible angle. Not sure and depends on the state.
2. What state do you think they went to? Residency requirement require someone to live somewhere for typically 6 months or a year before they can file for divorce in that state. This means, IF you file a custody and/or divorce petition in your state prior to her filing in the other state AFTER the required waiting period in that state for residency then your state control and your children remain considered a resident of your state. She'll have to bring them back, fight for custody there, win primary custody there and THEN file for a motion for petition to move out of state.
3. You mentioned she's been planning this. Hopefully not that long or well. I had one friend in Illinois whose wife went home to Michigan, changed her driver's license and "legal address" to her parent house then went back to Illinois and waited the required 6 months (or 1 years...don't recall). THEN she left with her kids and filed for divorce in Michigan. He subsequently filed in Illinois but for some reason (probably expediency) the Illinois court let the fraud stand and my friend was shafted. This isn't common and I doubt your wife had this much forethought but who knows.
4. As had happened with Jedi, this completely sucks and has you in a complete panic but there is a little upside. It is a good period of time to document your genuine primary concern about your kids versus your wife's unstable mind and willingness to use the kids as pawns in your marital struggles over her affair. I know this is difficult today, but she has to come home with the kids and face this situation like an adult. The longer she plays this game the more a judge, in the future, should punish her for trying to alienate the children's father. You may want to carefully write emails versus voice & text messages keeping in mind that a judge may read these emails someday. Judges are concerned ONLY about which parent in the most concerned and focused on the kid's best interest. State things like "I would never do something like this to you" and express your pain and hurt clearly. Keep asking to talk to the children because her refusals to allow you to even communicate with them are a clear indication to any judge that she is perfectly willing to abuse her children by alienating them from their father for her own pleasure and whim.
5. You mentioned she read HNHN. Did she buy the book? Pretty ironic that an author she read and paid for his book will be the professional you'll be using to support your choices to expose her affair and fight for your marriage.
I bought the book and we both read it. We were both under the advisement of our marriage counselor.
Have you spoken to her or your kids?
Do you have an email for her, her parents?
I'm just a tax attorney. I have no idea how to really help you with a custody matter in your state. You need to get with an attorney IMMEDIATELY to figure out how to best proceed.
PERHAPS...the best thing to do right now is to send desperate emails to your wife and her family asking where she is, where the kids are, are they safe (hinting that you are very concerned about their safety due to your wife's inconsolable and irrational state of mind that you observed). Focus on the children and your relationship with them.
Put an app on your phone that will record all your phone calls...even the ones with the children if and when you speak to them.
DOCUMENT...DOCUMENT....DOCUMENT
Your marriage isn't over but while you fight for your marriage you need to protect your backside and custody of your children in your state. What she is doing should backfire against her in that fight.
My wife's affair was long distance. One of the most shocking wake up moments to her back in 2005 was when she realized I wasn't going to just let her move with our child back to her hometown 750 miles away. That our daughter was legally "stuck" in Michigan which leaves an entitled wayward incredulous but in a predicament. Either the OM has to come to your state OR the wayward wife has to leave her kids behind. When push comes to shove....the affair typically implodes.
It may takes months and a divorce/custody dispute before your entitled wayward wife realizes she can't just up and take "her" kids wherever she wants.
Typicalman, no one is going to be able to help you if all you do is post one sentence responses and leave most of the questions people ask you unanswered.
This is a legal matter now, so I'm hesitant to post detailed responses... I hope you understand that. If there is any way to private message me please let me know.
You sound very shell shocked - can you go to your doctor and get ADs? You will need to rational and tough to ride this out.
You said it yourself, she was planning this even before exposure. Thank goodness you have told people what is really going on before she concocted a story about you.
Will her family support you? Simply call them and tell them you need them to step up and tell her go home.
This is a legal matter now, so I'm hesitant to post detailed responses... I hope you understand that. If there is any way to private message me please let me know.
TM you are totally unidentifiable. There are many threads which are the exact duplicate of yours.
your situation is common.
This is a legal matter now, so I'm hesitant to post detailed responses... I hope you understand that. If there is any way to private message me please let me know.
Additionally, you don't need to be concerned legally. You are seeking marriage advice here, don't let her make you feel like you did something wrong.
In fact this thread is a diary and pretty good evidence of your dedication to the marriage and the kids.
That you sought out the advice of a well respected clinical psychologist and have acted on his advice. That would refute any claims she will make up.
Not that such nonsense would need refuting.
Also, contact YOUR credit card provider and dispute the charges that she placed to retain HER attorney who seemingly provided her advice on what and where to go and to take your kids away.
You will have to follow up the phone call with a written letter.
They will automatically reverse the charges already paid to that attorney until the matter is out of dispute.
LTL
Your situation is run-of-the-mill. Your story matches so many others -- Jedi and MrWondering have both been in similar spots, as have many many other BHs on this forum.
Answering questions so that we can help you is not going to ID you.
Check her credit card activity online. Have you secured your bank accounts?
Did you do this?
Did you do this?
She is on the run with my kids. I am horribly scared for them. Please help
At this point, I would call the police and see if they can bring your children home. I am sure her goal is to terrify and punish you using your children. Just be calm and get your kids.
Did you do this?
Did you do this?
She is on the run with my kids. I am horribly scared for them. Please help
Did you do this?
Follow through with what Jedi told you to do:
Call the school in the morning and ask if they are present. If they are not present, call Children Services and the Police.
Check your bank account balances.
...
Also contact a family law attorney. Tell the attorney that you are trying to save your marriage but want to protect your parental rights and want full custody of the kids if she leaves.
Did you do this?
I will try to give the best responses that I can. Trust me... I am concerned for my kids and I love them. I am concerned for my wife and I love her. I care for my wife deeply and I want her to get through this and I'd love nothing more than to give her a big hug right now and hear her voice. Make no mistake, I have a VERY level head. I have concern, but not panic. I fully expected her to be upset, but I underestimated her carelessness with our children. Under no circumstances did I think she would drag them into this in this way.. I am shocked by that. Everything suggested here I have done except go to the police. No one locally has indicated that would do any good and from a legal standpoint it seems that she has lots of liberty here until the court has taken action. Unfortunately, it sounds like that is going to take a while. My little boy got pulled out of school, so I will be taking every possible angle to get him back in class. I want what is best for my wife but I understand that her decisions are going to be hers to live with. I am also starting to take steps to make sure that when they return, my wife will have a safe loving support network so returning to her family or the other man will not be needed. I have all the contact information for her family however, they are useless. Her family supports her affair or are simply in denial because a physical part cannot be proven. They are extremely resentful of me for moving my wife far away and giving her a good life. It seems that they have most likely been part of her escape plan. I can't judge if they are good or bad people since they could be simply gaslighted by my wife just as I have been. I know that the marriages in her family certainly don't follow the MD principles in any shape or form, so they also don't seem to understand what a healthy marriage is supposed to entail
sorry.. I meant MB principles not MD principles.
I can't help you when you are vague with answers.
Has your attorney filed anything in court yet?
yes, we are filed, and a standing order was filed. Not until the hearing date for the standing order can we get the order to bring the kids back which is > 3 weeks away. I'll be looking for any angle to get them back sooner.
yes, we are filed, and a standing order was filed. Not until the hearing date for the standing order can we get the order to bring the kids back which is > 3 weeks away. I'll be looking for any angle to get them back sooner.
I can't believe a court would let a parent take a child away unilaterally for 3 weeks. Have you asked around to see if another attorney thinks anything can be done faster? This is ridiculous.
She has some of her own money stashed away. She put her attorney on my cc before I had a chance to shut it down. She will most likely go to her family who will support her in the short run. It's clear that she has had escape plans for some time.
Is her name on the credit card? If not, I wonder if you can dispute the charge.
I don't have experience with this, but I'm thinking that if the CC company starts investigating the transaction, the attorney may think twice about helping her any more if he thinks she may not be able to pay or if he loses this money.
BTW, I agree with everyone else who says to document everything especially things that show she is alienating you from your children. I believe there may be a conversation in here somewhere on how to document. (Be factual/objective not emotional in what you say. Put it in a notepad where ripped out pages are obvious.)
Good luck. This situation will get better.
I have a huge network of support here now.. and I am flexing every contact I have to find out. I can't believe either that someone can hurt a child like this and there is so little I can do in the short run. I also understand that it is the short run... I feel strongly that I will be able to protect my kids and take care of them in every way they need it longer term. I can't protect them completely from their mothers irrational actions and they are unfortunately learning the sad truth about their mother's selfishness. I would not speak ill of their mother too them, but her actions cannot be hidden. I feel horrible that they are going through it.. but it's the truth and better they find out sooner rather than later. No matter what.. their father loves them and will always be here fighting for them.
So while she's in another state, is she further away from OM? Is he still in the state you are in?
Have you confronted the OM? You need to tell him to get away from your wife and let him know that if she divorces you you will haul him into court and have him testify about how he alienated her affections from you.
I told the OM to stay away from her. She is on her way to be close to where he is and where her family is. It will be several days of driving until they reach their destination.
Have you confronted the OM? You need to tell him to get away from your wife and let him know that if she divorces you you will haul him into court and have him testify about how he alienated her affections from you.
This is VITAL.
I have a huge network of support here now.. and I am flexing every contact I have to find out. I can't believe either that someone can hurt a child like this and there is so little I can do in the short run. I also understand that it is the short run... I feel strongly that I will be able to protect my kids and take care of them in every way they need it longer term. I can't protect them completely from their mothers irrational actions and they are unfortunately learning the sad truth about their mother's selfishness. I would not speak ill of their mother too them, but her actions cannot be hidden. I feel horrible that they are going through it.. but it's the truth and better they find out sooner rather than later. No matter what.. their father loves them and will always be here fighting for them.
Please be aware that your WW is almost certainly poisoning your children against you. She's telling them all sorts of horrible things about you, and it will be hard for them not to believe them without you there to dispute her statements. They may be apprehensive when they first see you again.
I told the OM to stay away from her. She is on her way to be close to where he is and where her family is. It will be several days of driving until they reach their destination.
I believe I would go there, too.
I would tell my boss that my wife had kidnapped my kids and taken them another state, and that I'd work on the road or as soon as I got back, but that I had to go to them. And I'd go. While the legal system works out the legal particulars.
typicalman, is there a restraining order against you? If not, go be with your family.
I can certainly make life very difficult for him if he does not stay away from her. Even if not, a relationship with him has very little to offer and it will collapse under it's own weight very quickly. Her fantasy will be short lived, but what happens from there is a big question. Will she get a moment of "clarity" and return? Alienation of affection laws exist in only a few states these days..
They are on the run right now.
They are on the run right now.
Who is on the run?
Can you go home?
Wife and kids are on the run.
I have not left the house.
I would tell my boss that my wife had kidnapped my kids and taken them another state, and that I'd work on the road or as soon as I got back, but that I had to go to them. And I'd go. While the legal system works out the legal particulars.
^^^^ this.
Will you do this?
Alienation of affection laws exist in only a few states these days..
I wouldn't let that stop me from telling him I'll use it in court. Let him do his own legal research to find out if it'll work or not.
typicalman, is there a restraining order against you? If not, go be with your family.
It wouldn't be unusual for a WW to get a restraining order .....
typicalman, are you listening to the Marriage Builders Radio show, daily? Have you listened today?
]I think tracking her down and going there might be something you should speak to your attorney about. They don't have to let you see your children and the second you show up there demanding it they will call the police and have you restrained and removed. The cops will insist you stay away, wife will feign fear and your behavior would be documented and quite likely perceived as stalking and controlling versus devastated and alienated but in control. You have to know that's the argument they are likely to use against you should this come down to a custody battle so whatever you do you want to try to avoid being perceived as ANGRY, CONTROLLING, ABUSIVE. Even non stop calling could be PERCEIVED as bad...which is why I suggested carefully worded emails earlier.
But I'm not telling you what to do. If you fear for the safety of your children in her custody traveling and have any notion that she's gonna do something more than just go away and try to punish you, then GO. I know Jedi tracked down his wife and kids and had a confrontation in some other state. Cops were involved there to but I think he had an order with him. This isn't necessarily a time to be conflict avoiding if your children's safety and lives are at stake but if you're secure in the thought/belief that the kids are safe and being fed and taken care of with her then you probably need to be strategic about this.
A poster named GoodFather, I think, was removed from his home and had a restraiining order on him for a month or so before the court would hear his case. He sat in a hotel stewing but remained strategic and ultimately won full primary custody of his kids. Sometimes you have to wait. Your kids are residents of your state and the law SHOULD make her bring them back one way or another.
In most states...this isn't parental kidnapping but it will be frowned up by the courts. Her attempts to "conceal" the children from you is offensive to the courts and if you had an order, would be illegal. Now...it's indicative of a mother who can't be trusted with primary custody of the children should you two end up divorced.
IF you file for divorce....can you get immediate standard orders requiring her to provide access to the children????
Here's some research I copied:
What Constitutes Parental Kidnapping?
Even though many states do not have a penal code entitled �Parental Kidnapping,� most have structured their general kidnapping laws to provide for the same type of offense. Whether or not the taking of a child by a parent will constitute parental kidnapping is determined by three main factors, including (1) the legal status of the offending parent, (2) the existence of any court orders regarding custody, and (3) the intent of the offending parent.
Until an order is entered which limits one parent's rights or access to child, both parents have equal rights and access to a child. If a divorce or child custody suit has not been filed, then either parent can take their child and exercise custody over them. If one parent decides to take a child out of school early for an extended weekend trip, they can because there is no order limiting their right to do so. This may be annoying to the other parent, but it is not parental kidnapping. The important caveat, though, is that the person taking the child must actually be the parent of the child.
When it comes to parental rights, it is not enough that someone has functioned as the parent. For example, if a man lives with a woman and her child for eight years and as far as the child knows and believes, the man is his father, the function of parenthood will not grant the man the same rights as a biological parent. If he wants the same access and status as a parent, he must petition a family court and obtain those rights. A parent with legal custody of their child pursuant to a court order cannot usually be charged with parental kidnapping. However, a parent who violates a custody order and then snatches or conceals a child can potentially be charged with parental kidnapping.
Parental Kidnapping Laws by State
Parental kidnapping laws vary by state, but generally involve a defendant abducting a person/child by holding them in a place where they are not likely to be found. Some parents are surprised to learn that their state does not require the use of force or a weapon to support the criminal charge of parental kidnapping. The unlawful retention of the child is enough to support a charge of parental kidnapping.
Many state parental kidnapping laws are general kidnapping rules, but some will more specifically tailor their kidnapping laws to address parental kidnapping. Michigan kidnapping laws, for example, provide that a parent cannot keep a child more than 24 hours with the intent to conceal them. If your state does not have a more �tailored� statute, it will most likely include exceptions or affirmative defensives for those situations where a defendant �kidnaps� their own child. Even though Michigan prohibits a parent from keeping a child for longer than 24 hours, it does include a defense for the parent attempting to protect their child from an actual threat.
Texas has a similar requirement that the parent�s sole intent was to assume lawful control of the child. The focus of this �lawful custody� defense is on the offending parent�s intent. If a parent kidnaps their child to punish or terrorize their ex-spouse and to also try to get lawful custody, the terrorizing intent will disqualify the parent from successfully proving their lawful custody defense.
Lawful Custody Defense and Parental Kidnapping
The �lawful custody� defense is frequently used to defeat parental kidnapping charges. However, keep in mind that this defense may not work on other charges or sanctions. If a custody order was in place, the offending parent could be charged with a lesser charge called �interference with child custody.� If the family law court has concerns that you were snatching, but not kidnapping, the family law court could also sanction you with contempt orders and require you to pay the other parent�s attorney fees incurred in getting the child back.
Getting Help
Custody battles are frustrating. They are especially difficult for parents who try to do the right thing, and extremely distressing for the children who get pulled in different directions. Before you resort to a game of tug-of-war, consult with a family and criminal law attorney to make sure that you are not tugging your way into a parental kidnapping charge.
yes, we are filed, and a standing order was filed. Not until the hearing date for the standing order can we get the order to bring the kids back which is > 3 weeks away. I'll be looking for any angle to get them back sooner.
TM, the last time this happened on the forum was around 2004-2005. A WW absconded with the children a few weeks before Christmas. An emergency court hearing was held and the judge was so furious at the wife for taking the kids that he made her go to their home, pack her clothes and move out. And leave the kids with the husband! He got full custody of the kids. Your wife is making serious mistakes by stealing the kids. She is just showing herself to be a very unstable person.
typicalman, are you listening to the Marriage Builders Radio show, daily? Have you listened today?
listening now
Is this marriage over or can I get my wife back? I love her so much and it's hard for me to know she is going through this. I have not heard from them for days now and there doesn't seem much I can do.
Is this marriage over or can I get my wife back? I love her so much and it's hard for me to know she is going through this. I have not heard from them for days now and there doesn't seem much I can do.
What do you mean?
Is she being tortured or imprisoned? What is she going through?
I thought she left the state with the kids.
Focus on her actions and not what you think her feelings are.
Has your attorney filed in court?
My wife saw an attorney,
I am doing everything my attorney has advised to get my children (and hopefully my wife too) returned safely.
Notice how much little info is posted when the unimportant filler was removed. When being evasive with us limits our ability to advise as well as lower the quality of the advice that gets offered.
I will try to give the best responses that I can. Trust me... I am concerned for my kids and I love them. I am concerned for my wife and I love her. I care for my wife deeply and I want her to get through this and I'd love nothing more than to give her a big hug right now and hear her voice. Make no mistake, I have a VERY level head. I have concern, but not panic. I fully expected her to be upset, but I underestimated her carelessness with our children. Under no circumstances did I think she would drag them into this in this way.. I am shocked by that. Everything suggested here I have done except go to the police. No one locally has indicated that would do any good and from a legal standpoint it seems that she has lots of liberty here until the court has taken action. Unfortunately, it sounds like that is going to take a while. My little boy got pulled out of school, so I will be taking every possible angle to get him back in class. I want what is best for my wife but I understand that her decisions are going to be hers to live with. I am also starting to take steps to make sure that when they return, my wife will have a safe loving support network so returning to her family or the other man will not be needed. I have all the contact information for her family however, they are useless. Her family supports her affair or are simply in denial because a physical part cannot be proven. They are extremely resentful of me for moving my wife far away and giving her a good life. It seems that they have most likely been part of her escape plan. I can't judge if they are good or bad people since they could be simply gaslighted by my wife just as I have been. I know that the marriages in her family certainly don't follow the MD principles in any shape or form, so they also don't seem to understand what a healthy marriage is supposed to entail
Paragraphs increases legibility.
My wife saw an attorney,
I am doing everything my attorney has advised to get my children (and hopefully my wife too) returned safely.
Notice how much little info is posted when the unimportant filler was removed. When being evasive with us limits our ability to advise as well as lower the quality of the advice that gets offered.
Look, I am not trying to be evasive. I went to an attorney and signed whatever I needed to to try to get my kids & wife back here. #1 Divorce petition (I don't want a divorce, but I had to file it in order to get the process going to get the kids back.. without that being filed, she can do whatever she wants) #2 is temporary orders to get the kids back here and keep them here until this can be sorted out. I sounds like it will take several weeks before any of this can take effect and we don't even know exactly where they are.
She has stopped communication. She isn't responding to any texts or calls. I am unable to get access to or talk to my kids.
I have also gone to our Church... no matter what is filed, the church's view is that we are still married. I am still married, so I still love my wife. I still care for her deeply. I still feel a huge hole in my heart for whatever she is going through. My purpose in life has been to be her protector and my kids protector...so I am lost now. I want to know that they are OK...
http://travel.state.gov/content/chi...ing/passport-issuance-alert-program.htmlsir hang in there.
Is there any chance she would leave the country?
if so you can block the kids passports at the website above.
no.. she will not. It is clear that she is going to be near her family & the OM. I would expect that given the exposure, she will not be contacting the OM though... I would not if I were her... otherwise her support network will fall apart given that she has denied everything. It's probably about 3 days worth of driving to get there. My first worry is about their emotional state... the kids must be so confused. If my wife is not thinking soundly (which is obvious), that could lead to physical danger. She can be reckless behind the wheel when she is emotional. I have always been there to protect her when she gets like this...
I think the exposure probably did it's job or will do it's job on killing the relationship with the OM... I am just worried that she is so mad now that she will never come back and work on our marriage... which is all I ever wanted.
no.. she will not. It is clear that she is going to be near her family & the OM. I would expect that given the exposure, she will not be contacting the OM though... I would not if I were her... otherwise her support network will fall apart given that she has denied everything. It's probably about 3 days worth of driving to get there. My first worry is about their emotional state... the kids must be so confused. If my wife is not thinking soundly (which is obvious), that could lead to physical danger. She can be reckless behind the wheel when she is emotional. I have always been there to protect her when she gets like this...
Has she behaved this way in the past?
Does she have mentAl health problems?
I think the exposure probably did it's job or will do it's job on killing the relationship with the OM... I am just worried that she is so mad now that she will never come back and work on our marriage... which is all I ever wanted.
All waywards get upset about exposure.
no.. she will not. It is clear that she is going to be near her family & the OM. I would expect that given the exposure, she will not be contacting the OM though... I would not if I were her... otherwise her support network will fall apart given that she has denied everything. It's probably about 3 days worth of driving to get there. My first worry is about their emotional state... the kids must be so confused. If my wife is not thinking soundly (which is obvious), that could lead to physical danger. She can be reckless behind the wheel when she is emotional. I have always been there to protect her when she gets like this...
Typicalman, have you asked your attorney about requesting an emergency custody order be issued until the hearing, wherein it is ordered that the children reside in the marital home?
Based only on Your description of her emotional and mental instability, I would DEMAND that the attorney I hired, who is working FOR ME, file an immediate emergency motion to track down and return MY Children.
She is now filling up their heads with reasons why she HAD TO leave, out of fear fron Your Irrational Behavior.
You need to be the epitome of a calm, cool and collected husband and father.
Also, her POSOM lives where you suspect she is going.
Do you seriously believe she is not going to meet with him for emotional support?
If you think she is too worried about being found out, you are in SERIOUS DENIAL.
LTL
Based only on Your description of her emotional and mental instability, I would DEMAND that the attorney I hired, who is working FOR ME, file an immediate emergency motion to track down and return MY Children.
This. I fear you've got a lazy lawyer who wants you to roll over and not create work.
no.. she will not. It is clear that she is going to be near her family & the OM.
I would go to that website Jedi posted and block their passports anyway. You have no idea what your WW and OM are planning.
.. I would not if I were her...
You are not wayward. We've seen them risk court martial to reconnect.
Tm, I know this is upsetting to you, but I have been thinking a lot about your situation and don't want you to lose hope. What is think is that there was a plan in place to leave you for the OM, but your exposure sped it up. A WS who is serious about recovery could not be run off by wild horses. Sure, they might get mad and stay away for a night. But they are usually back the next day. The fact that she has run like this tells me there was a plan here.
In that case, it just flushed the plan out sooner, rather than later so you can deal with it. She is in big trouble because if she goes to the OM, her family will be against her. Another benefit if that if she is with the OM, her affair will go into a free fall when reality wrecks the fantasy. You will get your kids back and she will be forced into some very hard choices.
I do agree with the others that you should get an emergency court order to get your kids back. Your kids need to be with a stable parent.
In that case, it just flushed the plan out sooner, rather than later so you can deal with it.
Bingo!
She will clearly need to bring the kids back and be faced with some difficult choices. I can only hope that her choice will be to work on a plan for marital recovery. I think this other relationship is completely irrational.. .her decision not to give it up is completely irrational, and he decision not to follow the MB plan and have a great marriage is completely irrational. I just don't know what action she will take at this point. We have two kids and we need to live near eachother and interact with eachother... why not have a great marriage? doesn't that make life so much easier? I can only hope and pray that she starts to see the logic in that.
No! Hope is not a plan.
She will NOT see any rationality or logic until the A has been hit through the heart. Count on that and account for that. Not even then, as she needs to go through withdrawal.
Her irrationality is what will destroy it. Her relationships will struggle and she will put pressure on the OM to help her and replace that support and he will fail her. That has to play out while you act like the better guy you are. The only one who can actually help her.
When are you getting the kids back? Can you call a different lawyer?
There's no way we can know if his attorney is doing a great job or is lazy. His local attorney is the one that should know how things work locally and how things progress with the judge they've been assigned.
His wife could be just taking a trip to clear her mind and be home in a week or two, maybe she's quickly threw this plan together and hopes to "steal" her children and relocate in her home state OR this could actually be a long term plan she's been strategizing and working on for some time (even to the extent of faking an affair so make her husband behave irrationally appearing so she could take custody). The later is far-fetched but we don't know and these cases can drag on for years and get really muddy OR she just returns home quickly.
He's got to get orders but he can't act crazy in the process. Courts are full up with men DEMANDING their rights. Judges just don't listen anymore and the louder your yell the more prevailing the arguments against you (that you are a controlling, vindictive man seem correct).
The probably truth is...if his wife wants to stay gone with the kids for a long time she can and will. He's got to get an order and then SERVE her with an order. How is he going to do that when he's not sure where she is and who she is with? People in hiding are also tough to serve. People in hiding can convince people and even local law enforcement that they NEED protection. The more frantic the man gets...the more local persons and entities might protect her and the kids. Then she'll end up bring a protection case of her own in her own municipality trying to "restrain" her "soon to be ex husband" from bothering her and the kids and it becomes an interstate legal battle.
I came across the case I've linked below years ago. It's a absolute worst case scenario of what can happen when the betrayed husband finds himself underfunded and outplayed by a particularly nasty OM in the court system. This betrayed husband fought for his kids for 5 years tying to get them back home and lost primarily because he acted like an idiot just a couple of times, got recorded on the phone saying a couple of nasty things about the OM (who stole his kids) and some psychiatrist who never met OM labeled him a threat to his own children in absentia (OM just couldn't afford to travel across the country to fight a protective order on less than 7 days notice).
This is absolute WORST CASE SCENARIO and very uncommon and unlikely. Hopefully and prayerfully your wife either returns willingly very soon OR in short order after a court order. Read the appellate decision and then the Supreme Court ruling.
Raymond Scott v Dietta Scott - Kentucky Court of Appeals Raymond Scott v Dietta Scott - Kentucky Supreme Court Last thought. Your wife's best chance at actually being able to move out of state with your kids is to remain in your state, trump up as many charges of violence and anger she can against you and win primary custody of the children in your state. THEN, file for a modification of custody order indicating she wants to move with the children because her (or her new husband) have job opportunities elsewhere and it would be in the kids best interests to move with her. SOOOO....even if she comes back, you could still have the fight of your life on your hands.
Last Last Thought - your marriage isn't over. Filing for divorce (out of necessity) does move you closer to divorce than recovery but you can drag that case out indefinitely (especially as the petitioner) and then, you COULD even drop it and if she doesn't cross petition she'd have to start the process anew. It's not over....exposure is working and once calmer heads prevail she may come to understand that giving your marriage a chance is the best thing for her and the kids (and you).
Mr. Wondering's reply seems to make sense. I believe my attorney is doing everything possible until proven otherwise. I agree that it is important to keep a completely level head in all of this for the sake of my kids and also to win back my wife's respect. In my state/ county, the default is joint custody and the kids can never be moved out of state except in extreme circumstances. I strongly believe that the fantasy will not play out well. I just don't know if my wife will ever put away her bitterness and anger long enough to make a rational decision... to work on a marriage with a hard working, successful, faithful, attractive husband that is the father of her children will do absolutely anything for her and for the kids.. putting aside the fact that life isn't always perfect... bills need to get paid, problems come up, following POJA you don't always get your first choice.. but you can get something you can be happy with. You might not live exactly where you want to live.. .you may have to pick some friends that share both your values; you may have to respect your marriage enough to limit the extent of relationships to opposite sex friends. Isn't that what we all sign up for when we get married?
All affairs are completely irrational. Hopefully she will choose the right thing.
You have a chance to save this, you exposed and she is reacting like all Waywards do�.It won't take long until the bubble bursts one way or the other��her family the OM now has to take full responsibility of her needs and I bet he didn't sign up for that kind of commitment��..who knows what other life he has been living along with having your wife as a ego booster�.
You seem to have done the right thing with the lawyer and hopefully that process will go as quickly as possible, your sons should be in school��..
Right now you have to stop worrying about her feelings, she isn't the woman you married she is high on the affair fog, she can't think clearly about you or the marriage right now�.not until the reality hits her �..stay patient, can you call her family to talk about at least speaking to your children���.convincing them they need their father too�...
��.they might surprise you�.in the mean time take care of yourself.
tyoical,
It seems to me that Mr. Wondering has given you the best opinion and advice to-date here. I would take notes on his opinion and review them with your attorney just to get a little better perspective. Another opinion can never hurt, and if your attorney is in accord, that would indicate that everything legally available is being done. Wondering is right in stating that no one here could know of the ability of your attorney, except you based on his stance, and no one here could really know better than you your W's intent and 'plan' despite the stereotype of the WW.
At this time, I would treat this as a crisis situation that can only be dealt with legally, unless your W or a member of her family contacts you with a proposal for resolution. Rash acts, I think, most often level out when reality sets in.
You will have my prayers in the meantime until this is resolved.
Tom
Indie,
With all due respect, why should he retain a different attorney? I think typicalman's W will see the logic in returning their kids to her H based on legal petitions, even tho it may take some time, despite her wayward attitude. At this point, I see this as more of a legal issue than an MB issue! Of course, we do not really know these people and can only base our comments on what they say.
Tom
Mr. Wondering's reply seems to make sense. I believe my attorney is doing everything possible until proven otherwise. I agree that it is important to keep a completely level head in all of this for the sake of my kids and also to win back my wife's respect. In my state/ county, the default is joint custody and the kids can never be moved out of state except in extreme circumstances. I strongly believe that the fantasy will not play out well. I just don't know if my wife will ever put away her bitterness and anger long enough to make a rational decision... to work on a marriage with a hard working, successful, faithful, attractive husband that is the father of her children will do absolutely anything for her and for the kids.. putting aside the fact that life isn't always perfect... bills need to get paid, problems come up, following POJA you don't always get your first choice.. but you can get something you can be happy with. You might not live exactly where you want to live.. .you may have to pick some friends that share both your values; you may have to respect your marriage enough to limit the extent of relationships to opposite sex friends. Isn't that what we all sign up for when we get married?
She will not do anything rational until the A dies. That is to be expected.
Indie,
With all due respect, why should he retain a different attorney? I think typicalman's W will see the logic in returning their kids to her H based on legal petitions, even tho it may take some time, despite her wayward attitude. At this point, I see this as more of a legal issue than an MB issue! Of course, we do not really know these people and can only base our comments on what they say.
Tom
I'm not saying he should, I asked if he could. If you want an important job doing you get quotes and advice from more than one professional. As experiences of lazy lawyers are endemic on these boards, it's worth sharing the experience that looking around has worked well for some.
If he's already done that/understands in full his lawyer's plan - great.
Indiegirl,
I agree with you based on how you explained. I just thought that Wondering;s advice was good, and to match it to his current attorney's advice. Bottom line here is that I think we are all concerned about typical and his M. From your comments that I've seen here, you seem to be a devoted person, and MB and the clients here are lucky to have you.
Tom
Keep the suggestions coming... I'm working the legal process (which is slow) and WW is continuing to not let me have access to the kids. She pulled them out of school with and has not returned their calls either. This was premeditated. ..lots of financial records, my computer, etc were taken. She knew what she was doing. It really hurts that she would do this to me and it's even worse than the affair.
Do you have GPS tracking on her phone or vehicle?
No, but I know where she is. The minute that I get the legal grounds to go get them, I will.
No, but I know where she is. The minute that I get the legal grounds to go get them, I will.
Good for you.
I'm sure you're already doing this but I need to ask. Are you documenting everything?
She has filed a restraining order in the local where she has run to in another state. Should I be worried about that?
Yes and no....
how did you learn this?
Were you served?
Her taking the computer and financial records isn't really an concrete indication of much premeditation. Anyone that's gone through a divorce would have been able to tell her to grab the records and take your computer (which they can run diagnostics upon and maybe pull everything you've been supposedly doing...if you looked at one or more porn sites...she'll claim you were a porn addict....even if she's the one that went to those websites to implicate you). A fully premeditated plan would have had her right there beating herself up and calling the cops on you as a wife beater, getting a local restraining order and full custody followed closely by a petition for modification of residency.
You can maybe go there and respond to a local restraining order hearing but your attorney might tell you it doesn't matter UNLESS you are also beign restrained from your children.
Again, have you been served? How do you know this?
I was served from a phone call. The computers were family computers the she used and had access to so any website visited could have been from her. I can tell from the trail left behind that she had been planning this.
Yes, it included the children
I was served from a phone call. The computers were family computers the she used and had access to so any website visited could have been from her. I can tell from the trail left behind that she had been planning this.
Speak with your attorney. I dont think you can be legally served by a telephone call
She definitely knew what she was doing, and to accomplish all in a few hours means she had done some research. Which 99% of the time means she had advice from someone who knows how to make it difficult.
I have never heard of being served via phone call, that can't be legal or is a bluff.
I am sorry for what you are going through, this is an extreme case.
Stay connected to your attorney.
You could tell us which states(yours and where she fled), we have people from all states on this forum who could offer some legal perspective.
I am in TX and she fled to MA.
I am in TX and she fled to MA.
Good. After thr court orders her to return the kids and she refuses ...she will wake up soem morning to Chuck Norris, Texas Ranger kicking down her door to arrest her.
Just checked...
Mass isn't unusual. They have to "serve" you in person. The only thing I can think of is maybe she went to the police and got a 24 temporary restraining order so as to buy 24 hrs of protection until the court opens monday morning and she can try to get something more permanent (alone with an order of temporary custody). So the cops call and say you are restrained temporarily from contacting and "harassing" your wife and kids. They probably should have said a time limit but they probably try to be as vague as possible to "protect" the supposed victim. This isn't a real documented restraining order but violate it and such will be used against you in court as proof of your abusive nature.
From what I read (see below) I don't think she should win a permanent restraining order. Here's some thoughts.
1. How will a MA court have jurisdiction? She's not a resident of MA. Your divorce was probably filed before her restraining order or any MA divorce case because you filed while she was still driving there so any hearing MIGHT be an opportunity for you to serve her with the Texas Divorce case and put the court on notice that they don't have jurisdiction on this matter of a Texas resident and kids ALREADY the subjects of litigation in Texas.
2. What proof of "abuse" does she have? A liars game but she needs proof of actual harm or imminent harm. Sending emails to her friends asking for prayers for your family it's "abuse".
3. She has to serve you. But you still may want to hire a MA attorney (or GO to MA to defend yourself) to appear on your behalf.....argue lack of jurisdiction....and put it on the record exactly what she's obviously trying to do....steal the kids away to MA. In that KY case I linked one of the biggest mistakes he made in hindsight was not going to the Texas restraining order hearing where the Plaintiff and her affair partner OM hired a "professional" psychologist or psychiatrist to tesitfy that the husband was abusive based on a couple recording of a mad dad who's kids were stolen from him and talking to the children. I'm sure the KY husband was told not to worry about the hearing under the same argument I gave above but he lost (one big difference in facts is that the wayward wife and kids had already lived in Texas for 8 months or so BEFORE filing the restraining order).
Here's a link to a handout sheet on restraining orders in MA:
MA Restraining Orders
Did she clean you out financially?
Have you shut down all credit cards and split up bank accounts?
I have control of the finances. And money is of no concern. ..only getting my kids. There is absolutely no record ever of any abuse to her or the children. I am completely clean...other than whatever story she will make up at this point.
This still has not been served and my county has no record of it.
One of the officers here said that she made a complaint about the exposure letter but he said that no law had been broken nor threat made.
What is your attorney saying/doing?
What has been filed and what is the timeline?
Did he ever do an emergency motion?
They tell me that she must be served and we must wait for the hearing. My son is missing the end of his school year and they are about to unenroll him from school. I would like to have an emergency motion to have them returned, but the attorney is not giving me that option.
but the attorney is not giving me that option.
Why? Would another attorney be able to do that for you? Have you asked around?
The legal process has been long and expensive. I still have not seen or talked to my children in over a month, but I think that I will soon. My wife thought she could leave with the children, file restraining orders, and walk away with a bunch of money. At this rate there will be nothing left and she is likely to lose the children. The reality of that will soon be setting in for her and she is just now starting to hear that things are not going to go her way. Should I make any attempt to reach out to her to reconcile this marriage or continue on full force with the divorce? If I should do something... how should I do it? Or do I just wait for her?
You better secure your rights first before you reconcile, so that means waiting.
That is my opinion.
So tell us the details, it seems like an unusual long time for hearings and such, most are in 2 weeks or less.
Waywards have a way with sucking you back in to placate you, then back to the fantasy.
She was successful with creating several delays due to running to another state and filing restraining orders there... so I had to travel there and get that thrown out and things sent back to our home state. Basically she was claiming that exposure, 15 hours undivided attention, and all the marriage builders principles were forms of excessive control and abuse and she was entitled to restraining orders and sole custody of the children. I think she is going to face quite a court battle now with me so I can get my children back. Plan A is out of the question at this point I suppose.
Typical,
You have been thru quite an ordeal. You seem to be holding up well. Do you have information that your kids are okay and being cared for well? Yes, I think your W will realize she blew it. It will be up to you tho to decide if you want to attempt to save your M. No one here could possibly answer that as each person, each couple is unique. I hope you have support from you relatives as you continue and you do have support here.
Tom
so what happens next and the sequence of events in the legal process for you?
I filled for divorce. The next step is a temporary orders hearing which will hopefully return my children to the state and give me contact with them or hopefully custody of them. My wife has run out of options so this hearing will be in a couple days from now.
I have had good support from family, church, and some friends. Most of our mutual friends have gone quiet.
Keep us posted on the developments.
The hearing in a few days, does she have an attorney for that? She will have to appear, so will your kids be back in state?
She has given up the children to me for the summer. We will then come to some resolution after that for the the fall... or the court will decide. I don't know what is going on in her head I don't know if she is moving on forever or she will want to come back or she will want the children. I saw her for a few minutes to get some things from the house. She seemed really angry.. .then a little teary.. and then seemed surprised that I was kind to her. I guess I don't know if I am in plan A, plan B, a custody battle... or she is just walking out on all of us.
If you still want to Plan A, could you start with an invite to a family outing?
yes.... there will be some opportunities for that. I'm just thinking that doesn't give her much incentive to give up her boyfriend and I don't know what is going on with that relationship now that she is out of the house. If I could know if that relationship is over, it would help. I couldn't imagine it would last long if it even gets off the ground to begin with. It was all just been a long distance fantasy for her.
Should I give this some time for reality to set in before I try anything?
Great news!
Those kids need stability! You are a helluva father to step up for them.
I would give it some time to settle in. What do you want to happen with the relationship and her? I think you need to search down deep for that answer.
Don't take your foot off the gas in the legal arena!!!!! You can still do Plan A, but it will be awkward. You have to protect yourself and those kids.
The answer is up to her. If she is willing to never contact the OM again and follow the MB plan... I would like to reconcile the marriage, but only under these conditions.
The answer is up to her. If she is willing to never contact the OM again and follow the MB plan... I would like to reconcile the marriage, but only under these conditions.
Very wise and concise way of looking at it. Stick to your guns!
She has given up the children to me for the summer. We will then come to some resolution after that for the the fall... or the court will decide. I don't know what is going on in her head I don't know if she is moving on forever or she will want to come back or she will want the children. I saw her for a few minutes to get some things from the house. She seemed really angry.. .then a little teary.. and then seemed surprised that I was kind to her. I guess I don't know if I am in plan A, plan B, a custody battle... or she is just walking out on all of us.
Try to get custody now.
She views this as an opportunity to go have her affair without your interference.
Typicalman,
Could your wife pass a psychological exam at this point?
If there is any doubt she could, please consider speaking with your attorney about askign the court to appoint a Guardian ad litem for the children
I don't see how she could pass... An amicus attorney has been assigned.
apples,
Think this is long past a Plan A. For a woman who abandoned her kids this long a family outing is most likely the least of her interests!!! Get real here. His primary objective now should be to obtain full custody of his kids.
Tom
Typicalman, you should be in Plan A until you are in Plan B. Plan A does not exclude trying to get full custody of the kids, etc.
Tom doesn't know what he's talking about.
We have reached interim orders which give me the kids for the next couple months. The way I am looking at this is that, although with her current state of mind she has no business having custody of the children... she moved 2000 miles away so she will be forced to choose the affair (and stay there) or to move back here and be part of the children's lives. I would think that this gives her a strong incentive to rethink things... but it will take some time for her to come to that realization. The custody issue would seem to solve itself unless a judge would really allow her to take my kids out of state so she could be with another man... but it doesn't work that way in my state. She is completely clueless right now. All the restraining orders have been dropped now in the other state and the Judge there is quite fed up with her.
The real question is... should I try to reach out to her or give her time? I think that I should give her time, and lots of it (plan B)... she is so mean and nasty towards me that it seems to do me no good at this point. It also has a negative effect on the kids to see their mom treating me this way. Should I send her a plan B letter? I have indicated to her that when she is ready to talk, I am here.
Also, just to clarify... she will have had the kids for about 8 weeks now... I am about to go get them. It will be hard for her to let go of them because see feels they are her possessions and treats them as such. I don't however think she has much empathy for them given the affair and her willingness to try to cut their father out of their lives.
Also, just to clarify... she will have had the kids for about 8 weeks now... I am about to go get them. It will be hard for her to let go of them because see feels they are her possessions and treats them as such. I don't however think she has much empathy for them given the affair and her willingness to try to cut their father out of their lives.
I don't know what Harley would advise in your case but I don't think fighting for custody and Plan A go hand in hand. In custody disputes you will make claims she is an unfit mother which will cause massive love bank withdrawls.
I think you should email a brief outline of your situation to Dr. Harley and ask what he recommends. (mbradio@marriagebuilders.com)
I would focus on custody if I were you and not worry about Plan A unless she returns to your doorstep. It doesnt seem to be a major issue since she has told you she doesnt want anything to do with you anyway.
I don't see how she could pass... An amicus attorney has been assigned.
Focus on getting full custody. If you feel she cant pass a psych exam then focus on that. Your kids have to come before the marriage
You need to be in either Plan A or Plan B. As long as you have contact with her, you can Plan A her.
Fighting for custody is just a consequence of her affair -- it is not punishment. You can make it quite clear to her that she is welcome to end her affair and come home anytime. There's nothing there that contradicts Plan A.
If you're not going to do that, then you need to go to Plan B and have no contact with her except through an IM.
Anything else is Plan C (Chaos) and will not work.
You need to be in either Plan A or Plan B. As long as you have contact with her, you can Plan A her.
Fighting for custody is just a consequence of her affair -- it is not punishment. You can make it quite clear to her that she is welcome to end her affair and come home anytime. There's nothing there that contradicts Plan A.
If you're not going to do that, then you need to go to Plan B and have no contact with her except through an IM.
Anything else is Plan C (Chaos) and will not work.
I have no choice but to fight for the kids because if I left it to her, she would cut me out of their lives completely. I have told her that if she ends the affair, I would welcome her back to work on the marriage but it is her choice. The problem with plan A is that any interaction with her results in her acting so inappropriate that I need to shield the kids from it at all costs. I think that puts us in plan B for a while... but I wanted to be sure that was the right thing to do. Any kindness that I show... she seems to take advantage of... but then treats me horribly. I think, think, think, she will have to leave the other man if she wants to be with the kids because he will not move here. I don't even know how serious their relationship is right now given how much of an illogical fantasy this affair was to begin with. Also, given that I exposed the affair she will have a difficult time with family and friends if they are together given that she has denied everything... I really just don't know.
She was successful with creating several delays due to running to another state and filing restraining orders there... so I had to travel there and get that thrown out and things sent back to our home state. Basically she was claiming that exposure, 15 hours undivided attention, and all the marriage builders principles were forms of excessive control and abuse and she was entitled to restraining orders and sole custody of the children. I think she is going to face quite a court battle now with me so I can get my children back. Plan A is out of the question at this point I suppose.
Do you feel fairly secure that she doesn't know you were/are posting here?
For my own information I'd like to hear a little more how this judge in Mass reacted to all this.
I agree with Jedi, focus on the kids ....if and when you go get them I think you better take a sheriff with you. Don't interact with her alone without a videocamera running. She's seeing this summer as a vacation with OM and somehow hoping she can figure out a way to magically get the kids back later. Waywards live day to day and as long as she can continue the affair today, why worry about tomorrow. Worst case she probably thinks as their momma she can just get 50-50 anytime she wants....for now...it's summer with OM.
Talk it over with your attorney and Jedi is a great resource but if and when you wayward wife comes to town this summer to visit the kids you probably want to either have the court order supervised visitation OR give the appearance of wanting to facilitate her relationship with the kids in a healthy protective manner as much as you can. See...you want the court to see that YOU are not punative nor an alienator (like she has proven herself to be) and the judge/court can trust you to do what's best for the kids which could mean you help them see their mom when mom is not a danger to them. Doesn't mean you have to be there. These visits could be set up through a third party. Anyway, that's something to consider carefully with your attorney.
She was successful with creating several delays due to running to another state and filing restraining orders there... so I had to travel there and get that thrown out and things sent back to our home state. Basically she was claiming that exposure, 15 hours undivided attention, and all the marriage builders principles were forms of excessive control and abuse and she was entitled to restraining orders and sole custody of the children. I think she is going to face quite a court battle now with me so I can get my children back. Plan A is out of the question at this point I suppose.
Do you feel fairly secure that she doesn't know you were/are posting here?
For my own information I'd like to hear a little more how this judge in Mass reacted to all this.
I agree with Jedi, focus on the kids ....if and when you go get them I think you better take a sheriff with you. Don't interact with her alone without a videocamera running. She's seeing this summer as a vacation with OM and somehow hoping she can figure out a way to magically get the kids back later. Waywards live day to day and as long as she can continue the affair today, why worry about tomorrow. Worst case she probably thinks as their momma she can just get 50-50 anytime she wants....for now...it's summer with OM.
Talk it over with your attorney and Jedi is a great resource but if and when you wayward wife comes to town this summer to visit the kids you probably want to either have the court order supervised visitation OR give the appearance of wanting to facilitate her relationship with the kids in a healthy protective manner as much as you can. See...you want the court to see that YOU are not punative nor an alienator (like she has proven herself to be) and the judge/court can trust you to do what's best for the kids which could mean you help them see their mom when mom is not a danger to them. Doesn't mean you have to be there. These visits could be set up through a third party. Anyway, that's something to consider carefully with your attorney.
The judge is completely annoyed that she has alienated the children from me and filed a false restraining order when there was no threat to her. She did all this in another state. At the same time, it puts the judge in a difficult position because all potential threats need to be taken seriously.
She may or may not know that I am posting here but I speak the truth and have no ill intent. Despite her behaviors, I have no intention of being the one who keeps the kids mother from them. I want her to be part of their lives. The kids will understand as they grow older what she has done and they can make up their own minds. They are very smart individual people.. not possessions as my wife treats them.
We have a very clear custody agreement and I have no reason to think she will visit them. I will be careful to have witnesses at all times when I am in contact with her.
I have done everything by the book and will continue to do so. My love bank for my wife is so far in the negative... but I understand that there she is two different people... one personality while having the affair and completely different when not in the affair. I need to avoid her too just to avoid my love bank from getting yet further in the red.. When I am away from her, I can still remember the wonderful woman that I married, but that woman is dead at least for now.
We have reached interim orders which give me the kids for the next couple months. The way I am looking at this is that, although with her current state of mind she has no business having custody of the children... she moved 2000 miles away so she will be forced to choose the affair (and stay there) or to move back here and be part of the children's lives. I would think that this gives her a strong incentive to rethink things... but it will take some time for her to come to that realization. The custody issue would seem to solve itself unless a judge would really allow her to take my kids out of state so she could be with another man... but it doesn't work that way in my state. She is completely clueless right now. All the restraining orders have been dropped now in the other state and the Judge there is quite fed up with her.
My WW moved out nearly 3 1/2 years ago to carry on affair #3 and even though she broke up with that POS AND at that time our Son just had turned 9 years old.
She only had 5 Very Brief visits with my Son the 1st year and None since. No phone calls, no Christmas Presents or cards, and no Birthday Presents or cards either.
Affairs Change People.
She was a A VERY good mother and wife prior to her 1st one.
I NEVER would have expected 1% of the behaviour she has since exhibited.
There is Drastically something wrong with a Mommy abandoning their own child.
In my case, the Point Of No Return had been reached a long time ago.
Be prepared for who she is now, not who you believe her to be.
LTL
After some research.. my wife has moved away thousands of miles to rent an apartment less than 1 mile of the POSOM. She still denies everything and claims to have moved to be closer to family & friends due to needing to escape the terrible abuse and controlling nature of the MB program... even though closest family is still hours away. I don't know if I want her back at this point, but it still can hurt to drive the POSOM away.. at a minimum, I want him away from my kids. He has no wife or family that I know of who would care. He doesn't have much of a career.. although, I plan to inform any employer that he does have. Any other tactics that I could use to drive him off?