Unbelievable. My wife was such a timid, loving, soft hearted Christian mother who has turned into a masterful liar, cheater, and deceiver who totally neglects her family.

I'm hesitant on pulling the Plan B just yet. It will be quite nasty and may be the death knell of the marriage. I want to be able to tell myself I did all I could. I'm really lost at this point.

The reason that children should know about an affair is that exposing it to the light of day (letting everyone know), helps give the unfaithful spouse a dose of reality. An affair thrives on illusion, and whatever a betrayed spouse can do to eliminate the illusion is justifiable. Mold doesn't grow well in sunlight.

2. How honest should I be about the A? (they are 7 and under)

Tell your children as much as you can about their father's affair, and how it affects you. There are some counselors and lawyers that strongly disagree with me on this issue, but I have maintained that position for over 35 years without any evidence that children are hurt by it. They're hurt by the affair, not by accurate information regarding the affair. Just make sure that you don't combine accurate information with disrespectful judgments. For example, you can say that the OW has taken their father away from you, but you should not say that she is home-wrecker (or worse).

Well, I did expose, just not to everyone I know.

Well, I wish I had better news to report.

The OM did come into the gym in May and they saw each other (she later admitted she had feelings still). Then in June things started to get better. This is where she said she was over him. He did come back in the gym in August but she said she felt nothing but disgust.

It was also in June that she later said that she stopped lying. So from July to October we spent tons of time together and shared a lot of good times. We did have a negative conversation about the affair about once a week because I kept discovering poems that she had written or email aliases AND I kept having questions. I thought we were finally on track to build something, despite her saying she was not in love with me.

So she finally said stop talking about the affair, it's creating a wall for me. It was hard, but I did. Now, this week she says I'm not happy, I'm not in love with you, you are the perfect husband and father and do so many wonderful things for me, but I want a divorce.

So I was frustrated and for 3 days probably preached and reasoned way too much about religion and the kids. All of a sudden she's gone so cold after us being together so much and having such good times. No evidence of the OM anywhere, she says she wants to leave to try and find that spark with someone else (but nobody in particular).

Anyway, today she says she feels I'm trying to pressure her into doing something to make everyone else happy and make her miserable. I am devastated of course, but my willpower to continue Plan A is almost gone.

Help?

Thanks Warrioress,

That makes sense that she is comparing the affair to our marriage. Personally, I think we really only tried connecting for about 4 months even though I have been in Plan A for 9 months. The other time she was in the affair or withdrawal.

I don't think that's enough time to fall in love, but she was clearly frustrated and felt she would never be in love with me. Now she says she doesn't want that anymore.

This has been tough because of the enormous change in direction at least from where I thought we were. She had said a couple of months ago that she was committed. Now she's not. She's obviously depressed thinking she'll never be happy. Being happy is the most important thing to her. I'm not happy, but I have faith. She doesn't.

Apparently she was unhappy for a few years before the affair. Even stated that we were never really in love. She only thought she was, but there was no foundation. All crap in my opinion.

Love is about commitment. She doesn't have it. She needs that feeling and is convinced I can't provide that ever.

I've had that discussion. Her "friends'" advice was that she will get the kids no matter what so that is what she believes. So threats and bluffs don't work.

No, I believe we were both in love with each other. She is revising history to fit her feelings and justify her actions. I understand it, it doesn't affect me because I know differently. Besides, her journals are full of comments of the sort prior to getting married.

I'm really thinking she will file for divorce soon. It was a real love buster for me to reason with her about her religious views and the impact on our kids.

Now she feels torn, trapped. That makes her mad at me, but I think the truth in my arguments is what has her torn.

I'm at the point though that if she leaves, I know I will be ok. I will hate it and be devastated, but survive, because I know I didn't have the affair and I stood strong through the storm and held to my beliefs. I didn't give up. I didn't quit. It's a lesson for my sons that I hope they learn (even though it may not work out).

Actually I've done it. That's how I know it didn't work. Made her mad at me though.

I will try. But this week she is very cold to me and she told me that she doesn't want to fall in love with me. Weird, huh?

I'd swear there was another guy...but I can't find anything.

I will ask you this....She says she is not in love with me and hasn't been for a long time, doesn't believe she ever will be. Says she loves me and that I am doing everything right. She has almost anything anyone could ask for. Why is she so miserable?.

She apparently did come out of the fog for several months as she shared a lot of details and even told me when he tried to make contact with her. Something has been majorly different this week, although she says this feeling has been building.

I have been checking the iphone. There's nothing there. (from her work phone).

On the phone I check the internet log. Cant erase those.

yes it shows who sent or received the text but not the actual message

She told me that she walked away both times.

I've seen so many spouses lie about affairs, that when one spouse wants a separation, my best guess is that he or she is having an affair. I'm right almost every time.

Why would anyone need to be alone to sort things out? It makes much more sense to think that being separated makes it easier to be with their lover. Granted, there are many good reasons for a separation, such as physical or extreme mental abuse. But of all those I've seen separate, most have had lovers in the wings.

I did a great plan A for 10 months now. She recognizes it, but isn't in love with me so she wants to leave. Nothing I say helps, only hurts. She's mad that I won't give up.

I cant find any OM and I am really getting worn out by all of this. We had 3 good months, but she is a holy terror now, even her family sees it.

She said she's going to try and decide this weekend on whether to divorce or stay unhappily married to me.

She said she's going to try and decide this weekend on whether to divorce or stay unhappily married to me.

She told me today that a psychologist told her that she has always been a caregiver to her mom, me, the children and she never took time to take care of herself. He told her that she is losing her identity. She said he told her that she was not abandoning her children by divorcing, because they would be left with capable people. I hope this guy has a plan b/c it doesn't sound like he's helping much.

She told me today that a psychologist told her that she has always been a caregiver to her mom, me, the children and she never took time to take care of herself. He told her that she is losing her identity. She said he told her that she was not abandoning her children by divorcing, because they would be left with capable people. I hope this guy has a plan b/c it doesn't sound like he's helping much.

She said she is so miserable that she feels like she'll either go crazy or kill herself. She's being treated like a queen who has, nor takes any responsibility and comes and goes as she pleases.

She goes again tomorrow. I'll see how that one goes. Its a different psychologist. The first guy told her that he is a "walk-in" (reincarnated spirit) so I'm not really surprised.

She feels that leaving the marriage will solve her issues.

Trying to get things in order as we speak and figure out a few things.

She refuses the MB community. She does not want to work on the marriage but is trying to decide whether or not to for the kids. With all these kooks talking to her and her shutting out me and her family - the writing is on the wall.

I'm pretty much done; researching Plan B now.

because she is definitely a different person than who I married and quite a bad person at that.

So I guess now it is Plan D.

Why file first? Is there a benefit to that?

I thought there was a possibility of the other man coming back into the picture but I didn't foresee a different other man.

She wants a divorce now.

Wow, exposing has been ugly in this case. She is more than furious.

Then when you do something as minor as actually tell someone

When Should An Affair Be Exposed?
By Dr. Willard F. Harley, Jr.


This week, again I�ll be taking a question from the Forum to help clear up a conflict regarding one of my common recommendations about when to expose an affair. The issue of exposure comes up when a betrayed spouse has first learned about the affair. Should it be exposed to others, or kept secret? I generally recommend exposure. When should it be exposed? I usually recommend that it be exposed immediately. To whom should it be exposed? I recommend that family, friends, children, clergy, and especially, the lover�s spouse be informed. Exposure in the workplace depends on several factors.

There are many reasons for this recommendation, but the primary reason is based on my belief that the more people know about what I do in my most private moments, the safer I am to others. Infidelity is one of the most painful experiences one spouse can inflict on the other, and it�s far less likely to take place, or continue to take place, when everyone knows about it.

Imagine how little crime would be committed if everyone�s activities were videotaped. Several weeks ago, a street fight in Minneapolis resulted in the death of a teenager. A gang of over 20 men were involved in his death. But it all happened in front of a host of surveillance cameras. The men involved in this murder will be arrested, tried, and sentenced. Minneapolis used to be called Murderapolis because of its extremely high murder rate. No more. The murder rate is now one of the lowest for a big city because people have traded in their privacy for security. People are now safer because they�re willing to have their activities recorded.

Another, almost equally important reason for exposure is that it usually provides support for the betrayed spouse at a time that their whole world is falling apart. When family, friends, clergy, and even children know what�s happening to the betrayed spouse they can provide considerable emotional support when it�s needed most.

But there are exceptions to exposure. Once in a while I don�t recommend it. A defense of exposure in general, and an explanation of the few exceptions are the topics of today�s column.

Abbreviations:
EA-Emotional Affair; D-Day-Discovery Day; MB-Marriage Builders; NC-No Contact; OM-Other Man; OMW-Other Man�s Wife; WW-Wayward Wife


Forum Member�s Question:

I know from my own counseling with Dr. Jennifer Harley Chalmers around D-day that she was very careful, almost reticent, about exposure. I KNOW that she was NOT for exposing to the world, and I believe all the Harleys were in some stage of reconsidering it. I think someone on the Forum quoted Steve Harley as saying he was more conservative than his dad about this issue, and even his dad was reconsidering it.

This past summer, when I was counseling with Steve Harley, he was similarly reticent every time I asked him about the advice I was getting here to broadly expose my WW�s EA. In fact, I was a little frustrated that I couldn't seem to get a straight answer out of him.

Essentially, Steve had me in a very "carrot-y" Plan A, and never even brought up the subject of exposure himself. He gave me the impression that he didn't think OM was much of a threat because there wasn't any clear evidence that he was actively pursuing my WW, although she was certainly reading his intentions as serious. (I was actively snooping at the time; the evidence wasn't there.)

So when I asked him about exposure, Steve initially told me to expose only to people who could offer me support and encouragement, which I'd essentially already done with family and close friends. WW was still furious about that, and also about my posting here, which is one reason my earlier thread no longer exists.

In a later session, after I'd seen that WW had broken NC to tell the OM that she was divorcing me and that she wanted to talk, I asked whether I should expose to OMW. Steve essentially waved me off, telling me that it would be very �tempting� but that I should focus on Plan A (although he didn't use the term).

Interesting twist here is that I ended up calling OMW anyway a week or so later, and after an hour-long conversation, talked to OM himself for another hour. Turns out OMW knew pretty much everything I did, but thought the only thing going on was in my WW's head. OM, of course, also denied any romantic intent (and was a miserably bad liar, too). Still, a few days later OM sent his own NC letter threatening legal action if either of us contacted them again, and my WW came out of her fog four days after that.?

So it's a bit of a bear to make sense of in the after-action report. Exposure seems to have worked its magic, although it's only correlation and not necessarily causation -- plus, of course, my WW came up with an entirely separate explanation for her change of heart. But exposure only worked after I basically ignored Steve's advice, which is sort of unsettling.

The whole experience has shaped my own attitude toward exposure. I still think it's not necessarily a one-size-fits-all antidote for infidelity, but I'm impressed with its power and the results it can produce�even a hesitant and graduated exposure like mine. Which is why, somewhat to my surprise, I've found myself enthusiastically recommending exposure to some of our newcomers here, even when it could bust up careers and have other serious consequences.

But I still find it curious that the Harleys don't address the concept of exposure�or of snooping, for that matter�in their public writing. I've subscribed to the MB newsletter for years and can't recall ever seeing exposure mentioned there. Why are the Harleys essentially quiet about it if exposure is truly a key weapon for fighting an affair?


Dr. Harley�s answer to Forum member�s questions:

It�s true that I have only addressed the issue of exposure on Marriage Builders� Radio and on the private Forum that is only available to those who attend the Marriage Builders� Weekend. So here goes my definitive answer that will help explain what may seem as contradictions from both Steve Harley and Jennifer Harley Chalmers.

Whenever a betrayed spouse tells me that they�ve just discovered their spouse�s affair, my advice is almost always the same: Let others know about it. Tell your children, family, friends, clergy, and especially the lover�s spouse, if they have one. And this is even to be done during what I call plan A (making an effort to make as many Love Bank deposits, and as few withdrawals as possible). The problem some people have with that strategy is that it conflicts with the goal of plan A because it�s likely to cause massive Love Bank withdrawals. An unfaithful spouse almost always considers such exposure to be a worse act of betrayal than their affair itself. But the alternative, helping the unfaithful spouse to keep the affair a secret, is enabling the addiction, prolonging the agony. In the long run, making the affair public knowledge without any forewarnings, threats, or bartering (which by themselves can create massive withdrawals) actually reduces the number of Love Bank withdrawals made by the betrayed spouse. It�s my opinion that the advantages of immediate exposure usually far outweigh the disadvantages.

But are there exceptions to my recommendation of the immediate exposure of an affair? Absolutely! Let me give you a few examples of situations where I would not suggest immediately exposing an affair.

A physically violent unfaithful spouse

In every instance of physical violence in marriage, I have recommend separation along with a restraining order to prevent any contact between spouses. No one who has followed my advice under my direct supervision has ever experienced injury in the 35 years of my counseling tens of thousands of couples. And I have counseled some of the most violent spouses.

If a wife tells me that her husband has a history of physical violence toward her, and she�s discovered his affair, I suggest that she make immediate plans for a complete separation. Generally, I refer her to a shelter for abused women. After the separation is complete, and she is safe, I recommend exposure of the affair. Plan A is ruled out, and plan B is followed (no contact between spouses). Contact is restored only after the violent husband in enrolled in an anger management program, has no contact with the lover, and is willing to begin a program of marital reconciliation.

Uncertainty regarding the affair

Many of the cases I�ve witnessed involve suspected affairs with no firm proof. In those situations, I do not recommend exposure. The forum member that raised this issue falls into this category. That�s one of the reasons why both Steve and Jennifer were hesitant to recommend exposure of the suspected affair. Instead of immediate exposure, I suggest gathering evidence that would convince a jury that an affair has taken place. In some cases I suggest hiring an investigator to gather that evidence. Once there is certainty regarding the affair, I then recommend immediate exposure.

Affairs are not usually difficult to prove. That�s because the affair is an addiction, and addicts are notoriously sloppy in covering their tracks. They also become progressively sloppy as the affair develops. They try to hide it, and are reasonably successful early in a relationship. But eventually they leave text messages, email, and telephone records in plain sight for anyone to observe. If a suspecting spouse is patient, it doesn�t take too long or require too much effort, to prove that an affair is taking place. On the other hand, a diligent hunt for evidence may prove that the spouse hasn�t been unfaithful after all.

Those who guard their privacy in marriage, claiming that a spouse has no right to passwords, internet viewing history, email records, cell phone records, credit card accounts, and other sources of evidence, are more likely to have affairs. Privacy between spouses should never be tolerated for a host of reasons. But one of the most important reasons is that privacy, and the secret second life that it helps create, breeds infidelity. Transparency, on the other hand, where almost everything spouses do are known to each other, is one of the most important safeguards.

The forum member who wrote this week�s question went against the advice of his Marriage Builders coach to first gather more evidence. Instead, he contacted the suspected lovers� wife and told her about his suspicions. As he stated, �the evidence wasn�t there,� but he �exposed� his suspicions anyway. If he had been wrong, and the affair had not taken place, it would have unnecessarily added to his Love Bank withdrawals which were apparently already considerable. But the result was that the lover and his wife wrote the forum member�s wife, warning her to avoid all further contact, and that ended the affair.

Economic considerations

A divorce, and even separation, can have dire economic consequences for a betrayed spouse. Many wives of cheating husbands that I�ve counseled are economically dependent on him. If she exposes the affair, she fears that he will leave her, creating financial hardship. So in those cases, before exposing the affair, I generally encourage her to plan for that possibility. Women�s shelters usually offer both legal and financial advice for women who find themselves dependent on irresponsible men. Temporary aid from government, religious, and other charitable agencies can provide a safety net for those women. While exposure usually causes the affair to end, these betrayed women can expose his affair with less fear when they know that separation will not leave them destitute.

When there is an affair in the workplace, my general advice is that the unfaithful spouse must quit the job and find another to avoid ever seeing or talking to the lover again. But while the affair is taking place and the unfaithful spouse is unwilling to resign, should a betrayed spouse expose the affair to the employer? While I unhesitatingly recommend exposing the affair to friends, family, clergy, children, and the lover�s spouse, I�m not so quick to suggest exposing it to an employer. That�s because such an exposure could have unintended legal and economic consequences. For example, the affair might constitute grounds for a sexual harassment claim. Or, it might trigger an outright firing of the spouse, making it far more difficult to find another job. So my advice whether or not to expose to an employer is usually made on a case-by-case basis.

Other issues

Many betrayed spouses are afraid that exposure will drive the unfaithful spouse further away. While it�s true that unfaithful spouses usually feel betrayed and angry when their affair is exposed, I regard that reaction as being part of the fog that most addicts experience. When the fog has finally lifted, and the source of addiction no longer has control, the value of exposure is usually conceded by the addict himself.

Some feel that an affair should not be exposed to children. Granted, I would not tell a 3-year old about an affair, simply because a child that young cannot possibly understand what it means. But I would not hesitate to reveal an affair to a child 7 years or older. Exposure to those between those ages should be a matter of discretion.

What about exposure of an affair that took place years earlier and is now ended but recently revealed? I feel that the children, close relatives, close friends, and the lover�s spouse should be informed. Granted, it�s embarrassing to admit an affair, but publicly admitting failure is usually the first step toward redemption.

As you already know, I�m a strong advocate of honesty and openness in marriage. I call it transparency�letting your spouse know everything about you, especially your faults. But should that level of openness carry into the public arena? I believe that it should in cases of extreme irresponsibility, and that certainly includes infidelity. When you have done something very hurtful to someone else, others -- especially those who care for you the most -- should know about it. Such exposure helps prevent a recurrence of the offense. Your closest friends and relatives will be keeping an eye on you�holding you accountable.

If exposure of an affair threatens the marriage, should the risk be taken?

I regard infidelity as a violation of the most basic condition of marriage. In most wedding vows, �forsaking all others,� is the only real promise that�s made. When you marry, the overriding condition that is mutually accepted is that you won�t have an affair. When that condition is broken, the marriage is threatened at its very core. That�s why I believe that spouses who have recovered after an affair should make new vows to each other, in effect reestablishing their marriage.

So when a betrayed spouse asks for my advice, I usually take the position that infidelity is the greatest betrayal of all. After an affair, trust -- an essential ingredient in marriage -- is dashed. If the unfaithful spouse is offended by being exposed, so be it. Exposure is very likely to end the affair, lifting the fog that has overcome the unfaithful spouse, helping him or her become truly repentant and willing to put energy and effort into a full marital recovery. In my experience with thousands of couples who struggle with the fallout of infidelity, exposure has been the single most important first step toward recovery. It not only helps end the affair, but it also provides support to the betrayed spouse, giving him or her stamina to hold out for ultimate recovery.

I am doing the same thing as before to try and win her back....again (but preparing for D).

Not sure I can trust that she can commit to anything so I'm really quite confused.

I am confused about whether or not it is in my best interest to keep investing in this woman. The cost is high, but the payoff of having my family is high too.

She admits I am a great person, but she isn't in love with me and for her that is all-important. Exposure and the fallout from it was a big love buster for her and now she is almost sure (probably totally sure) she wants a divorce.

Does Plan B ever work to reconcile a marriage?

Plan B does sound like a great relief, but so does plan D.
I'm gonna go see my lawyer again this week to get some more legal advice.

My wife had a horrible childhood. I'm no psychiatrist but I think maybe she looks for a spouse to fill voids in her life that I can't possibly fill. She's in therapy, but sometimes I doubt whether the MB principles will work with her. Or maybe I just neglected her too long. ???

My wife is not antisocial. Just the opposite, always seeking friends and acceptance, often at the expense of those who really love her like her family.

But what you say about needing the newness of a relationship and the strong emotional connection is dead on! I've known several others who had wives that did the same thing. Most of them never found the happiness they sought and are on marriage #3 or 4 now. That has me worried I may be wasting my effort.

People with this disorder appear to be charming at times, and make relationships, but to them, these are relationships in name only. They are ended whenever necessary or when it suits them, and the relationships are without depth or meaning, including marriages. They seem to have an innate ability to find the weakness in people, and are ready to use these weaknesses to their own ends through deceit, manipulation, or intimidation, and gain pleasure from doing so.

They appear to be incapable of any true emotions, from love to shame to guilt. They are quick to anger, but just as quick to let it go, without holding grudges. No matter what emotion they state they have, it has no bearing on their future actions or attitudes.

They rarely are able to have jobs that last for any length of time, as they become easily bored, instead needing constant change. They live for the moment, forgetting the past, and not planning the future, not thinking ahead what consequences their actions will have. They want immediate rewards and gratification.

I'm glad you pointed me in this direction, Fred.

My wife exhibits A LOT of the tendencies of a histrionic with some coexisting traits of the other Cluster B disorders.

Not a lot of good news on that front, though. Doesn't seem like there is much of a fix for it.

She is in therapy now. Said she'd bring it up to the doctor, but I could tell she was very hurt at the potential truth in it. I'm sure she'll find every way to combat the diagnosis.

I think it was a love buster. She is very angry (in withdrawal now) and she just used this as a way to blame me. I didn't do anything wrong, but not in her mind. I'm sure her friend will get her even more lined up against me.

That's ok though, I'm getting ok with the Plan B now.

Fred,How long were you married. Did your WW always show signs of the disorder or did it just pop up?

I'm not sure on the divorce talk. I wanna believe it is smoke and mirrors but she's got me believing it.

Anyway, she is all-consumed with needing to find herself

"We need to be apart so I can find myself" What a cute little euphamism that is, finding yourself or finding out who you are.

Many of my dear friends here no that I am a big believer in using a gentle touch on those unfortunate souls who either "Need to find themselves" or "Need to find out who they are" before they can come home to their families.

So, as a public service to these unfortunate souls I have composed "Finding yourself for Dummies"

First, finding yourself...
1. If you can't find yourself, try looking in your shoes. More than likely you will be there.

2. Do not bother looking where your children or responsibilities are, though that would be a reasonable place to look we know you are not there.

3. If need be, go to the police station and give the desk sargeant an 8x10 or you and ask to have an APB put out since you can't find yourself.

4. Ask your child to point to their mom/dad, if you are not sure which one you are reach into your pants and feel around, if there is a penis there, you are dad, if not, you're probably mom.

Now one of these tried and true methods ought to help you find yourself, but it probable dark so let's help you see better. Reach behind you, palms facing you, arms hanging down and grab. That's your butt. Now reach in that and look for a large round object, that is your head. Now, with both hands pull as hard as you can. You are now performing recto-cranial extraction.

Ok, now you have found yourself. We are making progress here! Now we need to find out "who you are". This is not so hard. Look around the house - if there are one or more particularly short little people ask one of them, they are called children, they probably know the answer as it was one of their first two or 3 words. Not able to talk yet? No sweat.

Look for the full grown person with the red eyes who looks like they haven't slept in a while - they probably know. They aren't home??? let's keep looking.

Try looking in a desk or filing cabinet. Look for folders named "mortgage", "Utilities", Or "Marriage license". There will probably be two names here - you are one of those. So we have found you and narrowed it down to two people.

Now look and see if there is a wallet around. Remember that? Little pocket sized leather folding thingy. Look for something that says drivers license. There should be a name. Now find a mirror (Glass thingy in the bathroom), look at the picture on the driver's license and the face in the mirror, if they match, the name on the license is WHO YOU ARE. If they don't, check those papers you found - you are the other name.

Now that you have found yourself and know who you are go find the other full grown person in the house and introduce yourself. Start out with "I'm sorry I could not find myself or figure out who I was, I know now"

Next, knock off the drama, quit being melodramatic and start being mom/dad, husband/wife like you are supposed to and quit with the childish theatrics because the final piece is WHERE YOU ARE. This is called the real world where people depend on you to act like a grownup and keep track of details like who and where you are. The little people in the house are kinda sorta counting on you too.

If this doesn't work and you have to take a journey to answer these questions there is a chance that when you find yourself you will be alone, without a house, without a spouse, without children who love you and without a penny. That is how my XW found herself a year later. Trust me, my plan outlined earlier is better.

If she loved you but still fell in love for OM, it can work the other way around as well.

She says she fell out of love several years ago.

Not sure I'll survive this one.

But I have to walk away knowing I did everything possible.

I don't guess I can expect much for Valentine's Day, huh???

Thanks for the kind words. I actually did have 4 of those months that were pretty nice, all things considered, where we were reconciling. Maybe had I avoided the love busters of asking questions about her affair then it might have been different...I just had to know though..

Well, I don't know if this marriage is going to survive her withdrawal. I know I went a long time without meeting her need for conversation...to the point she fell out of love and is DONE with the marriage.

But she is just not letting me have a shot. She is convinced divorce is the only option. She is a real emotional wreck now trying to decide what to do.

I am really confused though. Is it withdrawal from just not being in love with me. Or is it withdrawal from not being able to be with OM2. She is in there watching "The Notebook". She told me one time that she felt that was the type of love she had for this guy (he dumped her after 2 months 17 years ago and hasnt seen her until about 4 months ago when they started talking)

I wish she'd give MB a shot.

It's almost impossible to Plan A her now. She is in such a state of withdrawal that she won't hardly talk to me. It's unfortunate because the kids recognize the fact that she doesn't even tell me goodnight. She acts so depressed and feels trapped. I don't know if that is because she is missing the other guy so much or that being married to me is so miserable.

I've been through this before but I'm still confused. Maybe she just isn't cut out for a long-term relationship.

I don't know if she'd go for that.

What would he say to her?

Any thoughts on whether this is fog or if she is just done?

I agree with that too. But, I don't think she does.

I am not sure, however, if she isn't "flawed" as you say. She had a horrible life prior to me.

She doesn't have to agree to that. She just has to not have other men around long enough for you to fill up her love bank. Don't ask her to work on your marriage right now. Just ask her for no OM while she is still married to you, and you'll take care of the rest for now.

The problem is that she is in a major state of withdrawal with me. Is it because of no contact with OM or because she just doesn't like me anymore....I don't know.

I cant make any contributions to the love bank because she's never here and when she is she avoids me. She told me that living in this house with a man she didn't love was 'torture'.

How long can woman stay in withdrawal and live in the same house with no desire to improve the marriage? Will this last forever???

Me BH 39
Her WW 33
Married 11 years, together 14
Sons 6,8
Affair 1 (w/married alcoholic) Oct08 - Apr09 - DDay 6 Feb09 (broke NC until 24 Apr)
Started recovery in April
Affair 2 (w/first boyfriend on Facebook) - Sept09 - ? DDay - 12 Jan10
currently in withdrawal (she is considering plan D)

She is clearly in withdrawal

I don't see WW's behavior as being in withdrawl from OM. She went from one AP to another. IMO, she simply does not care and is all about ME.

Good idea. I've tried, but I could try harder. Like talking to a stone wall though.

I cant say for sure about the no contact thing since I only bluffed my way into a "hit". She said they talked on the phone a few times. She stays in very close contact with one of his employees (they live 100 miles away) so that precipitated the last call (his employee told my wife that he almost died).

I guess I get to expose a third time since, not only did she tell me, but she promised her family that she was not talking to him.

Thank you for the comments and advice...this has been so frustrating

Ideas on that?

I've read that Plan B is to protect you from going crazy after fruitless efforts. I'm not near that point yet. Heck, I made it through a military academy and combat so I don't give up that easy.

Yes, Plan B is definitely on my mind. Some folks have suggested that recently. I don't know if I am ready because I think that means the end...is that wrong? I'm still emotionally invested in this so if I am way off base, I'd appreciate some feedback. I've read that Plan B is to protect you from going crazy after fruitless efforts. I'm not near that point yet. Heck, I made it through a military academy and combat so I don't give up that easy.

I think you have already given up because you won't do anything to save your marriage. The plans have TWO PARTS, not just one. conflict avoiders have a tendency to grasp onto Plan A and make it a way of life. But Plan A only works in FIFTEEN PERCENT of the cases to end the affair and persuade the WS to commit to the marriage.

Your wife has already had 2 affairs and is likely looking for another. What you have done is trained your wife to have unrealistic expectations of entitlement which has harmed your marriage immensely. You have been in Plan Conflict Avoidance for a very long time and it has availed you nothing. The bar has been lowered so far that your wife is just living down to your expectations.

Plan A is not supposed to be a way of life for conflict avoiders, ark. It is supposed to be a very short phase that seques into Plan B. Up to 6 months for men, 3-4weeks for women.

Plan B does not mean the "END", but avoiding conflict and doing nothing DOES.

Now, help me with Plan B. How do I start. Do I give her an ultimatum to commit or get out.

[Ok, so by that I take it you are recommending Plan B. I do feel pretty abused now. I guess the only thing that gave me hope was that waiting out the withdrawal with Plan A worked last year to end the affair and start recovery.

Today she told me that she took her "Christian" psychologist a lot of the literature that I had (MB posts and strategies) and then told her side of the story and asked what she should do. He told her that she should divorce me and should have done it months ago. (stretching the truth maybe??).

She also told me "Do you know how close I am to putting a gun to my head?". That reminded me of something I read in one of the Harley books about how sometimes people feel this way.

Today she told me that she took her "Christian" psychologist a lot of the literature that I had (MB posts and strategies) and then told her side of the story and asked what she should do. He told her that she should divorce me and should have done it months ago. (stretching the truth maybe??).

Were you smoking crack when you wrote this? Plan A has not worked. It RARELY DOES.

Wisdom will save you from the ways of wicked men,
from men whose words are perverse,

13 who leave the straight paths
to walk in dark ways,

14 who delight in doing wrong
and rejoice in the perverseness of evil,

15 whose paths are crooked
and who are devious in their ways.

16 It will save you also from the adulteress,
from the wayward wife with her seductive words,

17 who has left the partner of her youth
and ignored the covenant she made before God. [a]

18 For her house leads down to death
and her paths to the spirits of the dead.

19 None who go to her return
or attain the paths of life.

20 Thus you will walk in the ways of good men
and keep to the paths of the righteous.
Porverbs 2 12-20

This is what you are exposing you and your children to, ark. "Path to the spirit of the dead."

[
I read that many times. It's good advice, maybe she will take it someday.

Well maybe not, but something worked to move her from divorce last year to working on recovery-and I thought that went well for 5 months. But, that really doesn't matter now. I had hope that it would turn out the same this time, but hope isn't a method.

More on Plan B.

Started recovery in April - withdrawal lasted until June
Affair 2 (w/first boyfriend on Facebook) - started Sept 09

Ok, a few questions before I go off half-cocked.

What if she talks about filing for divorce

What if she refuses to leave the kids here


Any other things I need to be prepared to answer or deal with

Yeah, I understand MrsW. I was hoping that I could fill her love bank a little during recovery. I'm not sure she's not a "romantic" or disordered, but that doesn't matter now.

just asking...thought I read somewhere to try and delay divorce until the affair dies. I don't remember.

She is a big cake eater now. So I want to try and make sure all that financial and daycare support isn't available?

Any other questions or things I should be prepared for when I ask her to move out? Should I be cold, nice, ?

Sorry, I know some of these questions seem odd but I havent had much time to think on it.

No, I meant that I keep the boys while she runs around and does what she pleases. So she doesnt take responsibility for them because I'm always a fall back (a no cost fall back).
Same with money...as long as I am here she has no worries.

Well, I hope they are with me....but that will be a sticking point I am sure.

well, I was thinking of telling her something like...

you have been blessed with so many wonderful things but you do not appreciate them at all

instead you obsess over what you dont have, you engage in horrible behavior such as serial cheating, pathological lying and spousal abuse

despite my many efforts, you still have no desire to work on the marriage

I think you should move out and live life with no support from me...the boys should remain here since it is their home and they need to maintain as much stability as possible during this time

sounds a bit love busting once I typed it though

Not that it matters, but does Plan B work very often in regards to bringing about reconciliation? I know its usually successful in ending the torment.

I plan to talk to her today.
Ask her to move out.

Thank you. I'm more concerned now about the little boys' situation. She is selfish and thinks she deserves to take them. She doesn't see how horrible a parent she really is. That is as big a fantasy as her affair.

Oklahoma - I've been told by the lawyers that the courts are only concerned about the welfare of the child and want both parents in their lives. Unless the adultery compromises the child's welfare (it wouldn't in this case) then it is not considered. In their words, we don't use custody as a way to punish a poor spouse.

Had I filed for divorce when she was involved with the alcoholic then I would have had a good case, but I was doing Plan A then and she finally stopped contact with him and defogged.

oh ok, that is a fault state where do they do take adultery into consideration. Your wife's adultery very much compromises the childs welfare in that it reflects a reckless and impaired judgment. You would want to file on grounds of adultery and have her adultery partners called into court to testify under oath about their adultery with your wife. Let her know you will be doing this.

The problem she is going to have is that Oklahoma - generally speaking - has not been retarded by moral relativism yet. Adultery in Oklahoma is not going to go over well.

From the new book by Dr. Harley Effective Marriage Counseling pg 94:

"Granted, there are situations when demands may be necessary in marriage. During a spouse's affair, for example, I recommend that the betrayed spouse demand there be no contact with the lover. If there is continued contact, separation or even divorce would be the logical consequence. While normally demands don't work, in this case there are no reasonable alternatives because thoughtful requests are even less likely to separate lovers."

She was absolutely shocked. She did say that she would fight for the kids.

I tried to keep it positive. She started talking about the relationship. She said something in her has died and she feels trapped.

She left saying I need to drive around and think about some things.

Asking her to leave really hurt.

Pretend like you are a Texan, ok?

OK, that is what I've struggled with a bit. In our marriage she said I was always too firm, too direct, too "controlling". Too much of a military person.

So I've spent the last several months toning that down. Trying to find a happy medium?

She did ask if I wanted her out tonight, so she is thinking it will be soon.

Pretend to be like a Texan? That's too easy (insert joke here).

OK, that is what I've struggled with a bit. In our marriage she said I was always too firm, too direct, too "controlling". Too much of a military person.

So I've spent the last several months toning that down. Trying to find a happy medium?

She did ask if I wanted her out tonight, so she is thinking it will be soon.

Pretend to be like a Texan? That's too easy (insert joke here).

Oh Lawdy, Lawdy...Now I have this visual of Ark~~~>

I thought we told the man to remain CALM - Pretend to be a Texan, indeed...

Mrs. W

I'm sure she probably is on the phone with another wayward friend of hers who will get her riled up at me.

Maybe, but that doesn't matter anymore, right???
You probably are right. She went to her work...which is where she can call from undetected.

Asking her to leave really hurt.

T

Then we started discussing a few things. At the risk of being beat over the head, I'll admit, I did find myself trying to reason with her, convince her divorce is bad, and all the other crap that I've said for the last few months. I don't know why - I know it was fruitless, but I did it anyway.

Yep. it waas stupid.
The issue with the boys will be nasty.

Be ready. If she moves out and takes the kids you have papers written up and serve her the next day with an injunction to bring them back. Get with a lawyer now so you are ready.

So, IF that is the case (and that's a big IF), what would you folks who've been through this say to a woman who says she is done with her affair but still wants to leave because she doesn't feel like she will be happy with her husband (a good person, father to her two boys and willing to make his marriage work).

What do you mean by helping her to move out? Packing, putting it in the truck, etc?

Would you be willing to post your Plan B letter? It seems that a first draft is usually not always the best. I used the one from SAA almost word for word and posters still suggested changes.

She tells me moving out definitely has nothing to do with the other person. It's something she has to do. She's always lived under someone else's rules and she hates it. She has to prove her independence to herself.

She said she is able to communicate easier with me but there is still nothing there. But, perhaps maybe, just maybe that moving out will make her want to start dating me again.

Anyway, since that last conversation I just put my best foot forward and waited for the apartment to become available. Now that she is moving out, I plan to do Plan B - no talking, no helping out, no friends, etc.

OK. so what now?

If Plan A was good, exposure has (I think) pretty much killed the affair. Now she's moved out and I've started Plan B..... not sure what else there is.

I've not seen her in 10 days. I did talk to her once during that time on the phone when she called me. I did write the letter. I could get darker, since I did answer the phone that one time.

The ONLY thing wrong was I did ask questions about the affair which was a Love Buster.

Unless you were a complete jerk when you asked her questions about her betrayal and adultery, asking questions is NOT a love buster.

OK.

I know that Dr Harley says that Plan B could go on for 2 years and then the betrayed should file for divorce. But, what is the realistic timeframe here? .

What I really cant believe is that she went 34 days without seeing her two boys (7 and 9) and barely talked on the phone with them.

I also got "I can't be a good mom if I am unhappy"

and "I am happier now than ever before"
Yet, she is a horrible mom (34 days without seeing the kids)

She and I agreed to 50/50 with me getting the lions share of the assets. I dont know if she'll stay with that after she sees a lawyer, but I figure with 50/50, I'll get the boys anytime I want and not lose too much of what I have worked for.

Should I reestablish no contact with her?????

I just got a very threatening voicemail from OM after I sent an email to him saying that he is destroying my childrens lives by his actions. I heard that somehow the email was circulated at his work office:

Why does an OM sleeping with a married woman feel like he has a right to threaten the man he is messing with. I don't know if he knows what I look like, but I'm a pretty stout military guy.

Yeah, I hate it too.

I'm having a tough day with it. Don't know why. This woman has cheated on me twice with PAs and I don't know how many EAs. Her boyfriend is threatening me, yet I still mourn the loss of that family that I had. The reality of actually losing it really hurts.

When I filed I noticed that she had beat me there....maybe so the grounds would not be adultery???

I don't know....Am I dealing with a typical wayward spouse here or is this something different.

Someone who talks like your wife can never be happy.
You mean she is after a cheap thrill with the OM...sure, she has that now. Big deal. How long can that bring her happiness? It will change a the flick of a switch.
Let her go and make it advantageous to you and your kids,
blessing

No you are not, you are dealing with a borderline sociopath.

she's 33 and a lot of her friends are still in high school

You are making the right decision. Personally, as I high school teacher this: made my skin crawl... It's creepy and extremely inappropriate on many, many levels!

She is one step away from some very serious legal issues with this one thing alone.

Save your kids and yourself. You have fought the good fight.