I discovered my wife's affair approx. 3 months ago. It started with her having general phone/text conversations with a friend of her past whom we both know. As the conversations continued, some became inappropriate and more consistent. According to my wife, the two made plans to meet at a local coffee shop to talk in person. After this meeting the two met two additional times while out and about. At the last meeting the two were seated in his vehicle carrying on a conversation in a store parking lot. My wife claims that after speaking he requested a "hug" from her. After the "hug" my wife say's they kissed each other briefly and my wife then stopped him from going any further as he placed his hand on her leg. She says the two agreed that "this" (the affair) was not at all what they intended when they began talking. He allegedly called and apologized to her for making the advance. I discovered the affair after checking my wife's cell phone record's and discovering a suspicious unknown phone number called and text-ed excessively. I ended up calling the number and hearing a "male" voice message. When confronting my wife she admitted to speaking with him and hiding it because she knew I would get mad. I knew she was friends with this guy from the past and actually wouldn't of had an issue if she spoke with him once or twice with my knowledge. She said it was not what it appeared and they spoke a lot about me and our married life together. He is also married. After about (1) week I continued to question my wife about the phone conversations, basically insisting that there had to be more to it? She finally admitted that they had met a few times and that they did kiss on the one occasion. My wife and I have been married for approx. (15) years. Our marriage has been relatively healthy and happy with no major issues until now. Her reasons behind this were emotional needs, she said it just felt good to have someone to talk to....I know when the affair happened my wife and I had limited time to talk and she often said how I didn't listen to her and how her day went. I admit that wrong, but do defend myself by saying we are busy parents that work long hours. Since the affair my wife has willingly ended all ties with the other male. She has made it a point to always leave her cell phone accessible as well as any other social accounts. She has willingly attended counselling sessions to find out why this occurred and how to deal with it together. I find myself trying to get past this and work to build our marriage again. I always feel that there is still more to the affair than she told me. It sometimes just doesn't make sense. Did they have sex? Dis more happen that day in the parking lot? Did they meet more often? My wife says NO, and it is just so hard to believe her when she betrayed me like this. Any advise or insight would be appreciated. Thanks.

Welcome to MB and sorry for your pain that has brought you here. Also her affair is 100% her fault and you are not to blame. You may be 50% responsible for the demise of your marriage but the affair is 100% on her.


Please read this Thread for Newly Betrayed Spouses

Sorry to tell you this but her affair has most likely been a full blown PA.

Whom has been told about your WW's affair?

You need to tell the BW of this OM. She has a right to know what her husband is doing behind her back.

She needs to cut off all contact and write the OM a NC letter. There are examples in the exposure thread that is linked in the betrayed spouse thread I linked to you.

Here's another good read for you. be the lighthouse...a post for those feeling tossed into the waves

You need to read Surviving an Affair by Dr Harley.

Did they have sex? Probably. Waywards lie about their affairs. I would assume that they did. I would assume she is still sleeping with him.

Does she disagree? Then ask her to take a polygraph test.

She broke your marriage covenant. It is her responsibility to meet your demands to remain married.

You mention counseling. She is going to figure out why this happened? Her affair happened/ is happening because she has poor boundaries around the opposite sex and unmet emotional needs. Example: Dont be in a car with afriend of the opposit sex bitching about your marriage.

Please read the book.
I'm sorry you are going through this.

In addition to this while you're waiting for the book Surviving an Affair to arrive please read all the links in here.
How To Survive Infidelity

Hi KGaa

Im pleased to see you use words like 'claim' when referring to your wife's words instead of believing her outright. That shows good sense.

I do hope your counseller isnt advising you to 'let it go' and 'trust'.

Actually counselling is overall a bad idea. All talk from someone you can't believe. An action-based plan like MB is better. Would you use the counselling centre? You can do it out of the book too.

Oh and it wasnt needs that caused her to stray - it was poor boundaries. If you were in a coma doing nothing for her, she shouldnt allow needs to be met elsewhere.

She can earn your trust back with proof and verifiable actions.

Has the affair been exposed to everyone?

Do you understand what exposure is? (Dont mention it to your wife yet)

I thank everyone for the replies. I agree and understand more now that this involved me to a certain extent and her not setting her boundry lines with others. I dont want to kust flat out accuse her of having a "full blown" physical affair and also want to credit her if she stopped the PA from progressing any further if that is in fact the truth. I was able to check her txt messages and read the content. Alot of what she says is true and verified through these. Alot of short messages and a few long phone conversations. I did confront the OM who would not meet with me in person but did talk over the phone. Is story was consistant with my wifes and was adimant that the kiss di happen but thatss where it ended.. he agreed not to ever speak with her again. He said he wanted to meet in person so we could clear the air of this. He also said the original intention was to talk as old friends ad even discussed us all going out as couples sometime...alot of this doeant seem like a typical affair just something that got outof hand. I can say that I do think he has always been attracted to my wife but dont beleive he is my wifes type.. down deep i want to have proof of the extent of the PA but have dug very deep...phone records, bank receipts, confronting OM and my wife sticks to her story of...it was a kiss, i stopped it and that was it...she seeked consuling because she told me that she did not want to loose our marriage and work on things that she needs to help heal this...she also told me that the sex was great between her and i because she was having these lacking emotional needs fulfilled elsewhere...she admits her wrongdoing but says she will not admit aomething she did not do...

KG-

First, please write with paragraphs as its easier for us to read.

Next, there is a clear, proven set of steps to be followed after discovery of a spouses infidelity whether it went physical or not.

You have been linked to them above. You also have done one or 2 of the steps already.

Last, before you blow money on counseling for her or you, follow the steps laid out here as they are written by the owner of this site after 1000s of hours of counseling couples going thru what you are.

I could relay my counseling story but in brief it was a waste of my time in hindsight.

Most importantly is follow each step completely as failure to do so opens up the possibility of false recovery.

Have you spoken to the OM's wife and told her about the affair? I hope that you have, because as long as she doesn't know, your wife is free to pursue the OM again.

Most marriages do not recover from affairs unless a very specific path is followed. Betrayed spouses who don't follow this path typically end up bitter and resentful for years after that affair. Your marriage doesn't have to be like that if you will use this program.

MB is completely different from any other program in that employs an action plan to restore the romantic love in your marriage while taking steps to affair proof it. If you follow this plan, she won't be able to have another affair and your marriage will be better than it was before.

Here is an outline of how this works:

KGaa12,

He also said the original intention was to talk as old friends ad even discussed us all going out as couples sometime...

This can never happen you can NEVER be friends with this person or his wife again, emotional affairs are real affairs, although kissing is real sex and the sex they had is very likely more than that.

Polygraph your WW now, you don't want to live with these doubts for years and years.

And for goodness sakes please speak with the other mans wife, OMW, she may be able to provide you with additional information.

God Bless
Gamma

How Affairs Should End

That is not possible. A woman needs 2 things to desire sex with a man: an emotional attachment and the prospect of enjoyment. If the OM was meeting her needs, then she would be attached to HIM, not you. She would be DETACHED from you. Women are attached to one person at a time, unlike men who can be in love with 2 women.

Would she be willing to take a polygraph to substantiate her story?

OK, it's clear the waywards have been very busy in gaslighting you and getting their story straight.



Very common for waywards' stories to match. Most meetings between waywards contrive around 'what to say' if caught or if one foolishly confesses to 'part' of it, they usually tell the AP what to corroborate.



It is HIGHLY typical for affairs to start as friendships/flirtations and for it to 'get out of hand' as lovebanks are filled up. That's 99 per cent of affairs. It's highly unusual for married people to wake up one day and go scouring the streets for a extra marital sexual partner. People sleepwalk into it.

They lost control of themselves - but now they are magically in control? Yeah right.

They each filled each others lovebank to the point of romantic/physical love, because they (at the very least) kissed.

Now, they will always have a lovebank for each other. An attraction. They will remember that 'spark' forever.

If YOU had done something as shameful as having kissed another man's wife - would you be suggesting hangouts with the BH? and the WW?

Of course not. But his aim is twofold: 1) to convince you 'it's nothing' by bluffing through it with bravado and 2) being able to continue to see his addiction source - your wife.

Even seeing each other across a crowded room, gives off sparks and they experience a feeling of being wanted and desired.

That's why complete No Contact forever is essential. And a No Contact letter to show she is serious.

Your wife will also interpret the 'couple's hangouts' as OM showing love and you showing you couldnt care less.

He kissed your wife, for heavens sake. And not as a sister. Tell him to stay the hell away from both of you or his world won't be worth living in.

Please read these.
Please Explain Gaslighting
Polygraph Testing

That's clearly nonsense!

It's common for waywards to say this. I've heard it described as 'a passionate friendship that enriches the marriage'



It's idiotic. Just a way of justifying doing something so horrendous and dealing with the guilt.

The guilt changes the person's personality. From normal to wayward. They have to lie a lot in order to sneak around so they change their (previously good) moral code.

Form 'lying to my spouse is bad' the rule gets changed to 'my friendship enriches the marriage' and 'I dont want to hurt my spouse - so I will lie'

Check this out.



Never Take the Word of a Wayward

KGaa12,

confronting OM and my wife sticks to her story of...it was a kiss, i stopped it and that was i

My sense here is that OM and your WW got their story straight in the case it was ever discovered. OM has cheated on his BW many times before and has a "system" for keeping things secret. You will be doing his Wife an enormous favor by speaking with her.

That he would even suggest that you can be couple friends again shows an incredible amount of arrogance, and an incredible amount of cruelty if his BW knows nothing. Can you imagine sitting at a restaurant as a party of 4 with his W completely unaware of what happened.

God Bless
Gamma

Very cocky indeed. Yeah I think he's an experienced cheat, too.

Probably been an excellent drug dealer topping up needs in the way this WW likes.

She still sounds as high as a kite too, on the attentions of this man. Neither are to be trusted.

There is an EXCELLENT chance you can bust this wide open with exposure. If former affairs are revealed, he will be tarnished in your WWs eyes.

Have you read the exposure thread?

Hi KG,

Are you going to contact the BW or not? I sense that you don't want to expose the affair. If you are afraid to contact BW your WW will be able to lie to you about this OM and other things in your marriage going forward because she will see that you believe whatever she tells you. Even more damage occurs when a BS is afraid to act.

A WS will downplay what happened with the AP. Why would you believe two liars? That doesn't make any sense. Contact the BW and do not inform your WW or OM. Do not show your hand to either of them...that would be foolish.

I copied this from another thread by NG. This gives you good instructions in hat to do that is part of the MB program:

1- KEEP ALL THESE ARRANGEMENTS SECRET FROM YOUR WAYWARD WIFE!
2 � Put a keylogger on any computer you can access that she might use.
3 � Put a spy program on any cell that she might use. (�Eblaster� can cover #4 as well.)
4 � Put a GPS on her car, reporting to your computer.
5 � Put a VAR in her car, and in any room she might use to take �personal� calls
6 � Get a mini-audio-recorder, and have it in your possession and �on� whenever in her presence.
7 � Put together an e-address list of anyone who might have influence on her � parents, siblings (sisters, especially), coworkers, college friends, clergy, hairdresser, anyone.
8 � Put together a similar list for the POSOM.
WHEN YOU HAVE SUFFICIENT EVIDENCE,
9 � Put together the electronic evidence for each AP.
10 - Write a cover note for your wife�s contacts, to the tune of: �I must unhappily inform you that my wife, XXXXXX, is carrying on an illicit affair with YYYYYY. I am hoping to recover our marriage, and ask if you have any influence over her, to urge her to abandon her cheating lifestyle and return to me and our family. Her cell number is 111-222-3333�
11 � Write a similar note to POSOM�s contacts.
12 � Send out both packages, to all contacts at one time.
13 � Brace yourself.

KG, reading your story and substituting "boat" for "parked car" and "seasickness" for "conscience" I could be reading my own story.

I and my bride have fully recovered our marriage and it has been a source of joy to me (and I HOPE to her) every day since.

I am going to give you some words to prevent you from making some mistakes I made, that you appear to be headed for.

Whatever it takes, get 1000% satisfied that you know the full extent and content of her affair. Firstly, get her to write out a timeline, from first feelings of attraction to last meeting. Have her fill it in with as much information as she can recall. Then tell her you will be requiring her to undergo a polygraph on the salient points. You'll know by her reaction exactly what you're facing at that point. Anything except "Yes, dear, to help you heal!" means she's lying about the details.

Whatever else you do, you must contact the OMW with the information you have. This is vitally important, and serves several purposes. It may be that this is not the first affair OM has had. (Won't your WW enjoy hearing THAT?) It may be that schedule comparisons about "business trips" or "conventions" might reveal deeper illicit involvements. If nothing else, it will put another set of eyes on the illicit couple's future actions.

And, pending the results of the poly, you may want to refrain from conjugal pleasures with WW until she undergoes a full STD screen.

And lastly, dude, you obviously have not fully internalized what OM tried to take from you, and his contempt for you as a man. "Go on double dates?" You might convey to him that if you and he ever meet, he would be fortunate if you were not carrying a horsewhip. Of course after you have your (mandatory) chat with OMW, he might not be so amenable to socializing with you.

Excellent post, NG.



Should be carved in stone for all newbie BHS.

Contempt is right.

I also found the contempt for his BW in this 'double date' suggestion, quite breathtaking.

But then, my H took me out with my supposed friend many times so that I was unknowingly on a couple of sick threesome dates with the OW. So I may feel it more.

The level of cruelty here is high. I really feel for both you and the BW.

If he can casually suggest something as cruel as this - what else has he done to you both?


Follow NGs tips to the letter. He's been where you are and drove the bus out of the ditch.

You need to schedule a pploygraph test. WW's never tell the truth. First they said it was just talk, then met just for coffee, then just a kiss, to just necking, to in the words of Howard Cosell she went all the way.

You also must expose OM wife.

Get a key logger on the PC to find out if WW is breaking NC. Even looking at OM's FB page is breaking NC and will keep WW from defogging from the affair.

My wife and I spoke extensivly the other night. I told her I wanted the affair totally exposed. She said it was and insists it was wrong....it did escalate to the point where they kissed and she stopped it...said it wasnt right, and he said i dont want to make u do anything ur incomfortable with....the affair was discovered shortly after. She insists that I am trying to get her to admit that it was more. We go over and over this....she finally said....what do u want me to say..."i slept with him" then I slept with him....now she consistantly says she is upset and hurt that we r trying to move forward in a lie. I didnt sleep with him, it just didnt get that far. Then she told me after i advised her of some of the things i read here. "Your probablh right...if the affair continued i probably would have slept with him.....the pain is bad...i just want the truth....

Thus, the polygraph.

I never had to threaten the PG test. My W spilled her guts on the goings on of her affair over a 6 or seven day period after her dday. Sure, I got more questions, but the top 50 were answered to my satisfaction. They were gory and completely humiliating to her to have to re-live but 100% necessary to move on. She did well. And, most of it was way less that I would have imagined.

Anyway, you will need to make the polygraph a required component of your recovery.

Really KG? Did you read anything on this site about exposure and arguing with a WS????? I am always willing to help a BS but you need to get your head out of the sand and stop talking to your WW about such things. You are shooting yourself in the foot. You need to verify info that is not per your WW or the OM. You want the truth but you don't want to make waves and tick off your WW to get to it...that's your biggest problem right there. Stop talking to your WW!!!!

Ok...i'm getting it..just hard not to care when so hurt. I stopped afguing with my wife..told her that in order to get some closure and the truth verfied i wanted her to take a polygraph. I told her this would confirm her details of the affair and be the first step to fegaining trust. She was a little apprehensive but said she would if that was what i needed.

Good, now that she has agreed to it, get it scheduled. Google polygraph (your zip-code) That's likely all that's required. Book it in about two weeks time, and develop the necessary yes/no questions that will give you what you need (about eight is recommended). Give her the questions about two days before the session. Develop the sanctions that will follow if she fails, and give them to her as well. If she cancels or postpones for any reason, call your lawyer. If she fails, implement the sanctions. If she passes, say a silent prayer of thanksgiving, and get to work on the MB Program.

Its very common for waywards to agree to a poly while inside their heads they are screaming
'Nooooooooooooooooo!'

They are usually hoping that that simply agreeing will reassure the BS and they will drop it.

Book it, and tell her that she is expected to reveal all between now and then. Have her write out a timeline of events - every flirty word, how things progressed etc. Any other As.

I fear that in a day or two she is going to pick a huge fight with you and claim that 'even agreeing to a poly isn't good enough' in a bid to make you needy and compliant. Prepare for that. Say 'No it isn't - I also expect you to take it. I also expect you to pass, having told me everything'.

Stand firm.

Oh and NEVER ever ever threaten exposure or ask permission to do it!

Get your exposure plan ready and just do it. Do BW first then everyone else. Don't tell WW a thing. She is supposed to see the reaction of others while unprepared. That's how it will work on her.

Exposure is a must. Done right.

You really must stop following your runaway emotions and follow a logical plan.

If you stop and listen, much less act on, all your pain and fears, then you'll end up under the dining table rocking on your heels with your pants on your head.

Follow a LOGICAL plan.

Up till now you've been asking a proven liar for an unproven version of events, while keeping it a secret from people who may very well be able to fill in the blanks.

Stick to logic.

If your wife is really repentant she won't mind proving herself and ending the secrecy which keeps you trapped and in the dark.

The truth will set you free.

Okay. Your wife is setting off alarms in my head, dude. LISTEN TO WHAT THESE FOLKS ARE TELLING YOU. Here's what can happen if you don't:

Your WS confesses to an EA and cuts contact.
You don't expose because hey, they ended it, right? And besides, that would really hurt them and make them upset. You don't poly because it sounds kind of nutty and extreme.
You try to recover and start building something good, but things don't feel right or ring true, so you keep asking questions, pleading for the truth.
Your WS waffles between mad and sad that you don't believe them. You hear things like "I feel terrible. It probably WOULD have gotten physical if you hadn't caught me in time", and "You just won't listen to me/let this drop! You're prolonging our pain! I feel like I should just MAKE SOMETHING UP so you'll drop it! You WANT me to tell you I did something, but I didn't!"

Weeks drag by and your WS finally admits it DID get physical, but ONLY twice, or only oral, or only once, or whatever lie they choose to downplay it. You are doubly crushed, because not only did they do something nasty with someone else, they've been LYING TO YOUR FACE for weeks.

This time you bring up a poly. They reluctantly agree, and that pacifies you somewhat. You drop the issue before booking a test because surely they wouldn't have agreed if they were lying, and you can't really afford it, and your WS makes it sound like you'd be crazy and cruel to make them do something so degrading after they already confessed...

Your WS is still acting BAD. They tell you it's because of you, but really it's because they're still lying and trying to keep you off track.

MORE WEEKS of badness go by. Eventually you discover something else, or they let something slip, and it's like an atom bomb in your brain. MORE LYING?! After all they put you through?!

You grow a pair and draw a line. You won't put up with this ANY LONGER. You book a poly. They agree because NOW they've told you everything anyway, they're still insisting. The days leading up to the poly, they confess more and more. The last secrets. You feel like you'll die.

They pass the poly, and you're faced with utter betrayal, personal devastation, and the LIES UPON LIES UPON LIES. That's so much harder to recover from than anything else.

I know this can happen, because it happened to me. Two months of my own personal hell. And I could have stopped it in it's tracks right away, if I had listened. You can stop it from happening to you.

Waywards LIE. Stop listening to your wife and listen to the advice you're getting here. Take control of your OWN life. You can choose not to take the chance that she's leading you into a living nightmare of dishonesty.

Go book a poly.

Take it from someone who knows what can happen when you WANT TO BELIEVE instead of FINDING OUT.

Yes. So agree with this. Her attitude stinks. Almost certainly she is hiding a more advanced PA and/or a greater emotional connection than she has told you.



Yup. Its hard to believe they could repeatedly slap you in the face with lies on top of everything else they've done...

.. But that's what waywards do.

PARTICULARLY ones with bad attitudes.

I would be very, very interested to know what his BW knows.

When can you do exposure/what is your exposure plan?

She has firmly agreed to take the poly...i told her i already did call and am in the process of making the appointment. I am a little afraid i am pushing her to hard when she may ne being up front even though took part in a dishonest affair. I agree with the poly to put me at peace. How should i act around her in the meantime betaeen now and the poly? Act as if we r moving forward? Begin the healing process as if she is telling the truth until known otherwise? She seems very remorseful for this going on and says i am hurting myself by thinking there was much more. I reallu appreaciate everyone help with this. My goal is to get to the bottom of this all and begin to rebuild my marriage. Thanks.

If I were a WW and I had done something SO TERRIBLE and told lies to my Hs face, I would feel q upset that I had ruined my credibility forever. What idiot would ever believe me now? A proven liar?

How FORTUNATE that there is this useful little tool that can RESTORE my credibilty! Can prove I am telling the truth! I have a reasonable, loving BH who hasn't kicked me out and a poly to regain his trust with! What a lucky girl am I!



Huge red flag dude. Its what anyone would think given her behaviour and she is blaming YOUR thoughts instead of HER behaviour! She's a cunning one, I'm afraid. This nifty little 'hurting yourself' catchphrase wraps up a lot of gaslighting in a neat little package. Let's unroll its meaning, shall we?

1) She is telling you how you can 'choose' what to believe and instead of finding facts and having reasonable assumptions and fears based on what you already know you should just 'choose' to believe whatever hurts you least!
Does she coo "you don't really want to know" hypnotically into your ear too? That might be a bit too obvious for her though.
2) The problem lies not with HER behaviour, HER lies, HER adultery but YOU are the person who hurt yourself by not believing hard enough, according to WW.



You need to expose and to Plan A her. Do you understand how to do this?

Not a word to her about this site or exposure.

She has firmly agreed to take the poly...i told her i already did call and am in the process of making the appointment. I am a little afraid i am pushing her to hard when she may ne being up front even though took part in a dishonest affair. I agree with the poly to put me at peace. How should i act around her in the meantime betaeen now and the poly? Act as if we r moving forward? Begin the healing process as if she is telling the truth until known otherwise? She seems very remorseful for this going on and says i am hurting myself by thinking there was much more. I reallu appreaciate everyone help with this. My goal is to get to the bottom of this all and begin to rebuild my marriage. Thanks.

I just got burglar alarms and home insurance.

Am I hurting myself with the fear that someone might want to break in?

Wouldn't I be happier if I chose to believe no one would do that?

Probably. It is q a depressing thought.

But given that I've already been broken into once by taking that 'it'll never happen to me' attitude...

.. I'm ready to face the hurtful facts of life, confront reality, deny happy clappy delusions and get my house in order.

I'm not hearing anything about an exposure plan?

There will be no healing until you have the truth...don't delude yourself. Between now and the poly, you Plan A and expose. Clean up your side of the street regardless of what your WW does or doesn't do. You should contact the BW ASAP. You may get a lot of info that can be useful for the poly. Personally I wouldn't even waste time and money on the poly until after exposure. You won't be pushing WW since you should only be talking about the A in small doses while Plan Aing and exposing.

Can someone post the link to plan A...thanks...

KGaa12,

Did you expose to OMW?

God Bless
Gamma

Can someone post the link to plan A...thanks...

KGaa12,

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2482787#Post2482787

This is a thread on how to plan B correctly, if you know how to use the search function that might help to find a similar thread on plan A. Not sure I've ever seen one I've just picked it up through osmosis.

Is OMW your sister or something and you don't want to expose to her?

God Bless
Gamma

Link to Carrot and Stick of Plan A.

Carrot involves needs meeting, looking good etc.

Stick involves not being needy, not being a doormat, exposing unapologetically and fighting for the marriage.

Stand up to the A as an enemy to be slain!

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2400725

How should i act around her in the meantime between now and the poly?

For a newbie who outwardly seems to be all over the map, you have an remarkable ability to pick out the key items to focus on.

Dude, you are going to have to master the difficult art of the Jeckyll/Hyde BH. The better you can pull off this duality, the swifter and more certain your recovery will be.

Dr Jeckyll: As long as she is following your MB instructions and requirements, you must be the loving, supportive and attentive husband of her Plan A dreams. Sooth her fears with phrases like, "couples do recover from problems like ours, if they invest the effort", and "the poly will go a long way in terms of assuring both of us of our bright future together."

Mr. Hyde: When (if) she balks, protests, or deviates from the process, you bring out the whip, the rack, the tazer, and the thumbscrews. "There can be no hope of recovery as long as you're not fully committed", and "I had hopes you realized how important these things were to me (in recovering from your abject and heartless betrayal of your wedding vows.)" (Use that last part only in extremis!)

There are BHs here who could never get these roles right. Many of them ended up in Plan D, although their cases might have been headed there anyway. The success here nailed the split-personality requirement very well. Make it your goal to join us.

Also here's a great read.

Betrayed Spouses....just be still

Imagine the date today, July 4th, imdependance day..yesterday as u know my wife was confronted with the poly proposition. I actually had a better evening last night knowing I was going to get the truth in short order. What a relief. I slept good last night knowing that i would someday put this a peace. The strangest thing occured this moring when i awoke. I just said i know she had sex with him and i think she is actually is going to admit it. She retunred home from work...i laid it all out..said i know there is more..and whamo...I had sex with him...it was not just a kiss when we met..thats how it started and it progressed to full blown sex rght there...she said she wanted to tell me but didnt for all the reasons this board mentioned. She provided pretty detailed info when asked...took back details that she lied about in the past..the details were so hurtful that i cant help to think that this wasnt the full truth. She admitted that they agreed to not disclose it and so on...she understand her fault and says she will so whatever i need to heal and make our marriage survive. I am hurt but very releived at the same time. I told her i just need some distance to colle t my thoughts but told her this was the first stwp to recovery...

Good for you KG. You are doing AWESOME.
You trusted YOUR instincts.
This SUCKS to know but you kept your cool.

Keep keeping your cool. And DON'T back off on the poly.

I brought up the poly again..she said she would take it..no real problem that I saw..i did tell her some of the questions i was going to have be asked. One was if she ever discussed leaving her husband foe this OM? She really didnt get defensive but she said i will take it but i thought breaking down and telling what i've been withholding was enough? To her credit i have read previous posts where a wife revealed all the terrible details and no poly was involved. She told me after consuling that she recontacted him because she finally wanted to put an end to this and tell him that. Id hate to beleive it, but i feel i've exposed the afraid...looking at the phone records..calls, dates on calander ect...it has all come together and now makes sense....i have checked her work schedule compared dates, if she was there...not to many stones unturned...i want to begin to recover and she says the same...i see the potential benefits of the poly but what more could it be? More sex? Longer affair? I pretty much have the concrete evidence and she confirmed my worse suspicion....i am goin to expose to the OMW...i told my wife it was wrong that she didnt know this..she agreed to call him and tell that she revealed the entire affair...am i still on track here and can we set up r recovery plan?

...she agreed to call him and tell that she revealed the entire affair...

NO EFF'ING WAY!!!!!

She is NEVER to speak to him again, as of yesterday!

Have her give you his BW's contact info, and call her today. Unless OM is the stupidest being on the planet, he should then understand your WW's new feelings about the entire sordid mess. Not that that really matters, because your WW will soon write out a No-Contact Letter, to your (our) satisfaction, for you to mail to him.

Stay Jeckyll, but reveal Hyde, my friend.

[size:8pt][/size]
Absolutely NOT!!!! She should not warn that rat about anything and she should never speak to him again! You need to call his wife TODAY and tell her before your wife warns her adultery partner. Call TODAY without forewarning your wfe.

No contact means no contact. She should NEVER EVER be in contact with him again and she should most certainly not be allowed to give her partner in crime a heads up.

A small issue i have is that i know the name of the other BS, but in these days of cell phones i beleive the om has his own phone and he has his. I do know the address but am reluctant to just show up with this news. Bad situatiin...i may see him....the other bs is on facebook but i myself do not have an account..my wife does. Any suggestions? I thought of seeimg if she would leave the house and i could intrduce myself and expoae things either there or some pu lic place.

Don't tell her about this forum.
And don't trust her.
Remember she is like a drug addict. You judge actions not words.
I would continue with the polygraph.
Ask her to write a No Contact letter ( samples are available and should be copied) and mail it return receipt
Then after she does that schedule an appt with marriage Builders coaching center

The other part of this is that i am so involved with "sterring" the bus to expose this in the right way ect...i am at the same time deaply hurt by the actions of my wife...can i ever look at her the same? Can i get the image of the Pa out of my head ever? Should i ask more details about the PA? What were u wearing...how was ur hair ect? It seems that that just makes it hurt worse but i can i ever be intimant with my wife again....deep pain!

Look up the OMs home number and call his wife. Disguise your number using *67 so the OM doesn't see you calling. If you can't find the home number, start up a Facebook page, send her a message and ask her to call you.

Don't tell your wife you are going to do this.

The other part of this is that i am so involved with "sterring" the bus to expose this in the right way ect...i am at the same time deaply hurt by the actions of my wife...can i ever look at her the same? Can i get the image of the Pa out of my head ever? Should i ask more details about the PA? What were u wearing...how was ur hair ect? It seems that that just makes it hurt worse but i can i ever be intimant with my wife again....deep pain!

The other part of this is that i am so involved with "sterring" the bus to expose this in the right way ect...i am at the same time deaply hurt by the actions of my wife...can i ever look at her the same? Can i get the image of the Pa out of my head ever? Should i ask more details about the PA? What were u wearing...how was ur hair ect? It seems that that just makes it hurt worse but i can i ever be intimant with my wife again....deep pain!

...but i can i ever be intimant with my wife again...

Whether YOU can is outside of our purview, my friend. Whether it is possible we can answer with a resounding "yes"! It is also possible that your answer may be "no".

Regardless of what the ultimate form of your recovery is to be, the steps RIGHT NOW do not differ.

Establish NC between the APs.
Get the full story.
Contact the other BS.
Deliver the NC Letter.
Lay out your requirements for attempting reconciliation.

Sadly, I must remind you of the now necessary need to have her, and probably yourself, undergo a full STD screen. This cannot be waived. She must be the one to suffer the humiliation of making the appointments, and answering the questions.

...deep pain!

Yes, it is. And as stern and judgmental as it may seem, the more of the pain you put on her (and she accepts), the better chance you will have of reuniting with her.

Kgaa. Yeah the pain is bad. It sucks. But right now you have work to do. You don't have time to dwell on what ifs and you aren't capable of making permanent decisions right now anyway. And if you don't get moving with the work, you won't have any options or a chance to make those decisions when you are ready.

We are asking you to do a lot while in pain. We know. We are telling you run across a field with a broken leg. However if you don't, you'll get shot down and you won't have any choices when that happens.

Ignore the pain. Ignore the future dilemmas. Find your inner soldier and just do the job. We have your back.

TELL OMW IMMEDIATELY. Before the APs do.

"Honey, my friend WW has this crazy husband. He's such a psycho he thinks we're having an affair! Isn't that a riot?!"

STOP TELLING YOUR WIFE YOUR GAME PLAN!

She cannot be trusted! But if you are tough enough, she may be trustworthy someday.

Its good that you're starting to listen to yourself.

That means her gaslighting is losing its power over you.

Good job.

kgaa, firstly, please listen to the other posters and stop talking to your WW about your plans!

she is trickle-truthing you. work on your poly Qs, and give them to her the day before. she will tell you some more "truth" in the hopes that it will make you call off the poly. DO THE POLY.

you have several things to do today.

1. keep on w/plan a
2. book the poly. you are not "in the process." you have either booked an appt or have not. book it.
3. expose! get your butt over to OMW house NOW.
4. expose to everyone else if you haven't already.
5. work on your poly Qs. remember they can only be yes and no. post them here for help. use your evidence to help come up with Qs.
6. contact the coaching center here at MB. you need a recovery plan.
7. if it hasn't been done already, WW needs to write out that NC letter. regardless of what she's said about ending it. YOU are the one that approves and sends the letter.

that should keep you busy and your mind off other things. yes, you can get these images out of your head, and you can recover your M. but the steps need to be taken so you don't end up in plan C or FR. work the steps. post here often.

I agree with Lettys 'trickle truth' assessment. I think she's hoping that spilling her guts will mean that you now believe her and call off the poly.

Don't!

How's exposure comming along?

Remember that everyone should be exposed to at once, WITHOUT WARNING your WW.

Have you read the exposure thread?

Exposure 101

Yes.
Trickle truth = I'll tell you something that's painful in hopes that you'll be satisfied and it'll throw you off track of the FULL truth.
Gaslighting = I'll try to make you feel guilty/crazy/stupid for pursuing this topic further.

Your wife COULD be telling the truth. If she is, the poly will assure your peace of mind.

But the "I'll do the poly if you want but I thought spilling my guts about this horrible event would be good enough!" approach is a big red flag.

I know you WANT to believe her, and I hope she's telling the truth. But you owe it to YOURSELF to find out for sure.

Don't drop the polygraph requirement.

KGaa,

Should i ask more details about the PA? What were u wearing...how was ur hair ect?

Yes ask for every detail that comes to mind, the more details you get now the fewer questions will trouble you years later.

Also this will help with the polygraph as doing a memory dump will increase WWs chances of passing.

God Bless
Gamma

I am unsure about continuing with th poly. My wife yesterday..when i briefly told her about rebuilding our marriage and that we can recover crom this..she out of NOWHERE said.....i had a PA with him a total of 3 times...not just once...and this is where all of them happend..this is what we did PA wise..the exact locations and she answered any minor detail even down to the ones that hurt most...ahe told me her tactics for trying to cover it up where she called from to avoid detection ect...she admitted that she recently callthe OM and they agreed at first that they were onlu going to admit the one PA encounter. my wife told the OM that she was going to come clean and that he she tell hiswife also. They previously agreed not to tell. My wife feels she has made the step in telling all...and trust me the info was extremly damaging...how much worse can it get...it was a multiple, continuous, 3-4 week full blown, everything this forum has said PA. Dont misunderstand...she is still willing to take the poly..but feels that she has brought herself to the point of humiliation to tell this terrible event...just feel i'm pushing mayne to hard and she's getting absoluty no credit for comming clean....also she is aware the affair is starting to be exposed and hasnt really backed down to admitting to her dimise with close friends and family.

I am concerned she is still lying. She is still in touch with him, isn't she? The way this is coming out - in a trickle - makes me think the affair is ongoing.

Is she resisting taking the polygraph? Because taking a polygrpah is not humiliating if it clears your good name.

Have you contacted the OM's wife?

You just need to stick to the guns here or risk a false recovery.

KGaa12,

my wife told the OM that she was going to come clean and that he she tell hiswife also.

Get to his BW immediately or OM is going spin the story that your WW seduced him, and that you are the bad husband who caused your WW to seduce OM.

Also make sure the BW knows all the tricks for snooping and give her the number of the polygraph expert.

God Bless
Gamma

Don't back off the poly.
You're risking a lot if you let 'want-to-believe' guide your course.

She has showed you MULTIPLE times already that she's willing to lie and hold things back. What precisely makes this time different?

The "I'll do it, but..." approach to the poly is a red flag.
Her remorse seems to be more about her and how humiliating this is than you and what she did to you.

Give her credit, by all means. Thank her for her honesty. Sympathize with how hard it must be to confess all that. Then tell her when the poly is booked for and that if she has anything else to tell you between now and then, you'll be ready to listen.

KGaa12, I was *just* going to advise you to read ^^^ AlmostInvictus' thread. Her WH tried over and over to "move on" without the poly, "I've finally come clean, there's no need!!!" and sure enough, when the day rolled around, the real truth came out.

It is TACTIC to get you to back down. DO NOT DO IT.

If that's how she feels then she is more concerned with her feelings of 'humiliation' than clearing the decks to heal you.

I would say: "I would rather you not heal me at all if you are not completely enthusiastic about doing so. I will only recover with someone who is enthusiastic about helping me."

That's outrageous that she is whining on about her feelings re the poly while she is STILL trickle truthing you.

You still dont have the full truth yet. Waywards who have given the full truth, and are fully remorseful are eager to take a poly and pass.

My guess would be she's hiding feelings of love for OM and an ongoing affair.

If she isnt remorseful she'll put you through a false recovery.

CONTACT THE BW!!!!

Yes ma'am.

Any reaction to the poly other than "I'm so sorry I put you through this and I can't wait to take this test and PROVE my honesty to put your mind at ease" is potentially a tactic to make you back off.

I ought to know.

Any reluctance. Any 'woe is me'. Any attacks on your motives...take them all with several grains of salt.

Then add a slice of lemon and a shot of tequila, book your poly, and let the chips fall where they may.

*high five*

She has brought herself to the point of humiliation by cheating...having sex with another woman's husband in a car if I'm reading this right. The ACT is what is humiliating, telling the TRUTH is finally taking a step to do what is right.

How are YOU pushing too hard. You are pushing to get the truth, about your own life. She is pushing to keep lying. If you want recovery to happen, it will only come through truth, and not through lies.

She will get credit for coming clean...when she comes clean. I highly suspect that has not happened yet.

Stop trying to protect her, why are you worried that you are 'coming down too hard' on your WIFE and some POSOM who continue to lie and cheat behind your back??? Your effort to protect a foggy WW and her POSOM will only protect the A which you are trying to destroy. Don't enable your WW or this A.

Couldnt agree more. Rather SHE is pushing her 'woe is me grief' too hard. She should have realised these consequences were waiting as soon as she embarked on an affair. She chose to become a liar. Why is she so upset about choosing to tell the truth on the record?

Telling the truth is not humiliating.

Its getting it on with a loser OM that is humiliating.

Being given the chance to come clean properly should be faced bravely by this WW.

I am in the process of contacting the other males wife..I agreed to go to mh wifes thearapist today with her since this happened. I told all to him with her present. I was not a saint 16 years ago and also had a PA...no issues since..been alot of years...what i gained from the therapist is my wife actually admitted to the therapist the full extent of the PA. He encouraged my wife to come clean with the entire thing in order to save her marriage...she was tricling the truth on how to tell me..but knew and even told the OM involved that thw truth was comming out...the therapist suggested that if i feel i needed to see the poly through...both of us should take one...he asked what i hoped to gain by the poly? I also feel that way at times...so the poly tells me it was 5 times and not 3....does it really change what i'm dealing with here. My wife said no problem to take it...she'd prefer it be out of town because of the confidentiality. Ours ia a smaller town where people know names and faces...

I am in the process of contacting the other males wife..I agreed to go to mh wifes thearapist today with her since this happened. I told all to him with her present. I was not a saint 16 years ago and also had a PA...no issues since..been alot of years...what i gained from the therapist is my wife actually admitted to the therapist the full extent of the PA. He encouraged my wife to come clean with the entire thing in order to save her marriage...she was tricling the truth on how to tell me..but knew and even told the OM involved that thw truth was comming out...the therapist suggested that if i feel i needed to see the poly through...both of us should take one...he asked what i hoped to gain by the poly? I also feel that way at times...so the poly tells me it was 5 times and not 3....does it really change what i'm dealing with here. My wife said no problem to take it...she'd prefer it be out of town because of the confidentiality. Ours ia a smaller town where people know names and faces...

Dr. Harley says to get ALL your questions about the affair answered. So if you need to know if it was 3 or 5 then you should find out.

Can you call the MB coaching center instead of this M counselor? They have a 84% failure rate.

Why not ask him how many marriages he's saved? Most are disastrous.

Here Polygraph Testing

Kgaa, there is no need for you to take a polygraph. That is pettifogging the issue. Nor is there any reason to bring up your past affair. This is not tit for tat; you are not children.

You have enough on your plates today with her affair without bringing past grievances into the present. That is counterproductive and destructive.


At what point was the therapist going to tell you?

This is just one of the numerous reasons why "therapists" are so destructive to marriage. They have an 84% failure rate and have no idea how to save a marriage after an affair.


What does this mean exactly? Does this mean she will be told today? This is something that cannot wait.

You've been paying for someone to lie to you! What a good way to make sure you remain long term paying clients - by not solving the problem.

Ditch this fraud.

AND CONTACT THE OMW RIGHT NOW!!!!

Instead of paying a fraud to lie to you and confuse the issue, you could instead have spent the time productively saving the BW and your marriage.

No more shillyshallying because you are scared of what a moody WW will do. You need to progress the plan and expopse to BW NOW.

I'm confused as to what the hold up is? Do you have her contact information?

What does "in the process of contacting other male's wife" mean?

Only have home phone and OM may answer call..onlu reason i've waited is because i am having trouble making contact with her without the OM....

You can call the house and use *67 to disguise your number. See if the OMW answers. If she doesn't, I would drive over and tell her personally. But she needs to be told before your wife gets ahold of the OM.

Only have home phone and OM may answer call..onlu reason i've waited is because i am having trouble making contact with her without the OM....

Did you see this?

Only have home phone and OM may answer call..onlu reason i've waited is because i am having trouble making contact with her without the OM....

Did you see this?

Why should we continue to post to you if you won't listen? There are easy workarounds to the above problem. You can keep posting your EXCUSES to not tell the OMW, it won't change the fact that it is an excuse and it won't change our suggestions.

Do you want help or not?

KGaa, you are softening in light of your WWs "apparent" truth and remorse. DO NOT DO THIS! you are setting yourself up for a FR, and it'll kill your M.

i gave you a list yesterday. what on it have you done?

your MC is a waste of time and money. ditch him/her. you'd be much better off using the MB coaching center. you can see from your own words that your MC is not on the side of your M!

book the poly.
meet with OMW TODAY.

Site has been a blessing. I made phone contact today with the wife of other male..talked for Awhile and spilled out all the details as she could take them..provided phone numer for future use. Spoke to her a second time when she had more questions. WS did find out i disclosed it to OMW. Overheard me talking. Told my wife that we were going to devise a no contact letter to be sent...Wife again came clean this morning with more horrible details. After she told me those details this morning and the OBS was aware..BS totally changed her tone about taking the poly. I recently called my wife with the time and date is scheduled now....to occur in 2 days! I told and her demeanor has drastically changed...she wants to fly anywhere to take the poly ASAP and wants to show me all kinds of records and work schedules to prove her word. Next step is hopefully recovery....

Congrats, KG. I'm glad her attitude is changing.

Now follow through. You're on the right track!

I have exposed this to the other BS...immidiate family of mine(parents) and a close friend of my WS. I plan on telling my brother who lives out of state and Ws spouse at one point asked Who knows? I told her who and feel i am often riding the fine line of "dont tell the whole world" but enough to have the "support affect" on WS. Also pending poly results, what is the first step to recovery...which program from MB should we enroll? Also does anybody have any minor advise on how a devastated BS gets past the "visions of what when on during PA and how ever be intimate with WS again?

I would confidently say all BS's have trouble with this one. No clear cut answer there pal. I think this just goes with the territory when we decide to R. We are 6mo�s into our R and I can say things are starting to ease off in this department.

Definitely not coming to mind nearly as much although I do have some triggers that bump the thoughts from time to time.

If there is a silver bullet, I haven�t found one yet to get the images out of my head. In an odd kind of way, sometimes those memories help keep me strong and my expectations HIGH for my FWW. EP�s and MB�s will help your resentment melt away. Sure is for me.

Creating new memories of our own certainly help. At the 2 mo mark of our R, the SF went through the roof. Think they call it Hysterical Bonding. Hasn�t backed off at all since then. This definitely will help.

I chose NOT to get all the gory details. Didn�t want them.
Knew enough. That is why we all have to decide individually how much information we want AND can handle.

Nothing replaces the healing powers of good behavior over a long extended period of time.

Immediately after the poly, which will give you the extent of the affair, give yourself maybe two weeks to ask about the details that are still unclear. Then, never bring it up again. Easy? Noooooo! Necessary? YES!! Why? Because you and she, if you are going to make this a success, are going to have to start "courting" again, through the rigorous adherence to a regimen of UA time. Bringing up the painful elements of the past will NOT be helpful in that endeavor.

Do you want to save yourself a world of hurt? As soon as possible, start only dwelling on the things that she does from this point onward. Convince yourself emotionally that the woman who betrayed you is as dead as possible, and the woman you are moving forward with is only responsible for her NEW actions.

The longer you permit yourself the unaffordable luxury of rehashing and re-considering events of the past, the longer the opportunities for enjoying the present will be denied.

Pick a date. Like I said, maybe two weeks after the poly. Bury your deceased WW's existence on that day, and start a new relationship with your FWW.

As I have said before - E-A-O-T-P !

We don't discuss my FWW�s A at all. Agree 100%.

However, convincing ourselves that the old woman is DEAD when the new woman has yet to prove that she is indeed changed forever is dangerous. For me, this has to be proven over a very long period of time. Through new actions, EP�s and the MB program.

I would sign up for the online program. They will assign you a coach who guides you through the weekly lessons. It is an invaluable program that has transformed many marriages around here. It is immensely better than marriage counseling and much cheaper over all. The program lasts a year.

Do you have children? Did you tell them?

Also this will help with the memories.
Managing Memories and Dealing with Triggers

We havent intentionaly told them but the OM spouse texted me WWs phone with a pretty explcit message involving the affair...unfoetuantly my middle aged child saw it and said....your business is your business mom....i feel terrible...this was one of my only fears of exposing to the OM wife....any advise on how to handle...also i feel so worn down...poly is scheduled in 2 days..i'm not reallu that thrilled anymore...words just blab out of my wifes mouth and i'm tired, run down and hardly care because she has feeded me so much bull@#$..i feel if one reason i could just leave her is not cor the actually affair, but what she put me through to this point...i'm almost convinced that if somebody goes to this extent to do this to another human and extreme measures my WW MUST have developed feelings for this OM and maybe just wants to put pn the record in the end that she came clean and now can decide who she wants to devote herself too....

Yes from the exposure 101 thread we posted to you. Please tell them the truth.

The best thing to do is sit the children down and tell them all about the affair. This is very much their business. Her affair almost wrecked their family so it is important they know what their mother has done. They also should be told the OM's name so they can identify the enemy of their family.

Kids can deal with the truth, they can't deal with lies.

And please don't despair about your marriage. Your wife does have feelings for the OM. But her feelings for you can be re-created using this program. You can create a happy, fulfilled, passionate marriage. I know that seems unrealistic today, but it really is possible.

Exposing to the children is essential! Everyone must know.

All children over the age of four must know.

I know your feelings must be overwhelming, but it isn't practical to make emotionally-based decisions right now.

Because your emotions will go up and down all the time.

See your doc about anti depressants if you are really struggling.

In the meantime stick to your plan and that involves FULL exposure. Tell the kids the truth.

Don't look for logic in what a wayward does! She hurt you because she's an addict who checked out of her brain as soon as she allowed someone else to meet her needs and became addicted to that.

She's trickle truthed you and that is enormously traumatic. Being told constant lies is like having oil poured under under your car wheels. You're no longer on solid ground and are just waiting for the next lie to send you spinning out of control.

The plan allows her to make just compensation with the truth, a poly, if she is serious.

The plan also insists she go through withdrawal from her drug and build up a lovebank within the marriage.



Remember that you have a plan!

A radio clip from Dr. Harley telling children even as young as 4.

The Harley's discuss telling the children even as young as 4 about the affair

KG-

Ive missed a few days on your thread, youve done a nice job exposing.

1. Regarding intimacy with a WW and visions. Seems tough to imagine now but the visions get less and less. As you move into recovery actions, you need to lay out conditions that she'll need to meet. These are you EN (emotional needs). Up on the right hand side of this screen you'll find a link to details on ENs. In my list I asked for a sexual revolution of sorts in my bedroom. She never waivered, protested, or said one word about that item. And, without details, every session since has made us closer as a couple and further from the person she was.

2. Kids knowing about the A. The OMW called my house with the details of the evidence she found of my wife and her husband. She was hysterical when she called and my daughter picked up the other line. It was in that instant my 11 y.o. learned what a BJ is. My wife's cross to bear. ANYHOO, it has been my ability to forgive, my incredible job as hero, and, for sure, my wife's commitment to me and her self improvment over the last year that we dont believe theres any lingering mental trauma for my D or little boy.

You have gotten a tremendous amount of great advice. The fact that youre still here after learning the dirty details is a very good sign.

Someone once told me 'you won, she chose you'. When I got negged out, I pulled that line out of the hat and it helped. Still does today.

Things are getting bad and not a tone of hope at this point..Poly is s hediled for tomorrow. I have basically told my WW that i vowed to stay marriws to her by giving her this chance for "just compensation" of the truth with the poly. I kmow she is humiliated by it but is definetly in proper agreement to now take it. Ww is at work and kids have been put at ease until wife and i can talk to them together. NC has yet to be sent but will do...WW is offended by msome of the questions I have included on poly. I told her she brought those thoughts to the table because of this affair. Any suggestions...

Kgaa, I would tell the kids without h there. I think they will feel more free to ask questions if she is not there. They can talk to her later.

What questions is she offended by?

If they traveled out of town and stayed overnkght in a hotel together? If they had a PA at our home or his....claiming all but one time was always in a vehicle...if PA ever occured in a bed since WW claim is that PA took place once on LR floor at nrothers home. WW feels that she has divulged ALL and the poly will show thatt...also she was broight back that i placed the question as to if their has been other affairs during our marriage? She adimatley denies. I dont know what to beleive ONLY because she has lead me down this path to make these assumtions that would normally be irrational to ask any married person. I hpoe she is telling the truth...she has the bulk of the questions i want asked for poly tomorrow..she doesnt seem worried at all...i've told her i love her as the woman prior to this affair and pending the results of the polyam commited to work with her in the goal of repairing our marriage....

If they traveled out of town and stayed overnkght in a hotel together? If they had a PA at our home or his....claiming all but one time was always in a vehicle...if PA ever occured in a bed since WW claim is that PA took place once on LR floor at nrothers home. WW feels that she has divulged ALL and the poly will show thatt...also she was broight back that i placed the question as to if their has been other affairs during our marriage? She adimatley denies. I dont know what to beleive ONLY because she has lead me down this path to make these assumtions that would normally be irrational to ask any married person. I hpoe she is telling the truth...she has the bulk of the questions i want asked for poly tomorrow..she doesnt seem worried at all...i've told her i love her as the woman prior to this affair and pending the results of the polyam commited to work with her in the goal of repairing our marriage....

Those seem like pretty reasonable questions to me. After all, the goal is to ease your mind and if those are the right questions, then those are the right questions.

I don't like this attitude where she is trying to influence what questions are asked.

If you have fears some stuff happened and they did NOT, you'd think she'd be delighted that she had the chance to prove that.

In what kind of crazy world is it less shameful to betray your vows in a car than a hotel?

She sounds totally fogged out.Any questions that make her uncomfortable are even more important to delve into. Why would they make her uncomforatble if they didn't happen?

I'd stand very firm and watch for moodiness and manipulation on her part re certain qs or the poly in general. I'd say something like you aren't interested in giving her this chance unless she's enthusiastic about answering all your qs in full.

She doesn't get to dictate what your fears and concerns are. She just has to heal them with the truth.

I'd be astonished if she sits it and passes while she still has this whiney attitude.

I'd say there is probably still more truth she should spill.

Id say she doesnt have a whinny attitude at this point....last couple days...the general and she only said it once or twice was that some of the questions...like have you neen faithful prior to this...was she wanted some credit for the good time frame of our marriage and she says it was difficult to even let the grusome details of the time and places that PA's did happen...let alone to think there was more...I say maybe there is more but i need to know 100%...also she has been on this site...i told her very early on that i was on this site in order to get advise.....i would like to delete the post thus far....i have neen blessed with this help and will return to the programs pending a good poly result....any help with deleting the post would be helpful......,

Removal/edit policy:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2263402#Post2263402

Id say she doesnt have a whinny attitude at this point....last couple days...the general and she only said it once or twice was that some of the questions...like have you neen faithful prior to this...was she wanted some credit for the good time frame of our marriage and she says it was difficult to even let the grusome details of the time and places that PA's did happen...let alone to think there was more...I say maybe there is more but i need to know 100%...also she has been on this site...i told her very early on that i was on this site in order to get advise.....i would like to delete the post thus far....i have neen blessed with this help and will return to the programs pending a good poly result....any help with deleting the post would be helpful......,

My wife of 16 years just had affair after sixteen years of marriage. I had a previous post on here explaining the extent of the affair when my wife was in the stage of hiding the true details of her affair. She eventually after weeks of preassure and talking came clean with all the details i could handle..I relied on the site heavily to deal with this tragdey in our life and thank all who have helped. She took and PASSED a polygraph today and I feel we our ready for our next step..I HURT just looking and thinking she was with this other man, but also know that things will improve over time and with the help of MB. This is what I accomplished thus far... 1. Discovered the affair and inveatigated to find out as many details as possible. 2. Listened to my WW trickle the truth until all was revealed. Confirmed her word with a polygraph exam. 3. EXPOSED the affair to wife of affair partner, my parents. Wife of other man I know has exposed affair to his parents. WW coworker knows as well as my brother. Exposing is still occuring. Here is the question I have for those with advise.....WW received a text message from other wife that was explicit about her affair. My 12yo daughter saw the text and said "your business is your business mom"...what i read nefore was that children she be told of affair my BS without WW presnt. I plan on doing this this evening as my three daughters know something is going on with all the stress she seen in both of us. How do i expose this to them and should i include my 8yo? How far do i go with the details of who it was and the extent of it? I want this to help my wife by seeing how this affair affects the people she loves but at the same time dont want her to lose the relationship she has with them for ever. Also what program should we use for our situation that is going to be best for our marriage?? Thanks again....

KGAA, I would strongly suggest you stay over in the Surviving an Affair forum so folks can help you recover your marriage. This forum is more for couples who have not experienced affairs.

To answer your questions, yes, your 8 year old should be included in the discussion about the affair. The kids should be told about the affair, who it was with and why adultery is immoral. Tell them how very hurt you are about the affair. You can explain to them that the OM is married and his wife is very affected too.

To answer your second question, it is very important that you follow the program as outlined in the book Survivng an Affair. You should also get the workbook, Five Steps to Romantic Love, which has all the worksheets in it. [they sell this cheap on this website]

Most couples do not survive from adultery because they don't follow the necessary steps to create a BETTER marriage than they had before. In order to recover, you have to replace the bad marriage with a GREAT MARRIAGE. If you don't do that, you will end up with resentment and bitterness and your marriage will be more vulnerable to an affair than it was before.

I will post an outline of the steps in the next post.

Dr Harley in Requirements for Recovery:

The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide.

I'll describe these two parts to you in a little more detail.

The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy.

This information is important for two reasons: (1) it creates accountability and transparency, making it essentially impossible for the unfaithful spouse to continue the affair or begin a new one unnoticed, and (2) it creates trust for the betrayed spouse, providing evidence that the affair is over and a new one is unlikely to take its place. The nightmares you experience are likely to continue until you have the facts that
will lead to your assurance that your husband can be trusted.

An analysis of the wayward spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them.

After the first step is completed, the second step is to create a romantic relationship between you and your husband using my 10 Basic Concepts here
as your guide. While your relationship may be improving, it won't lead to a romantic relationship because you are not being transparent toward each other. Unspoken issues in a marital relationship lead to a superficiality that ruins romance.

<snip unrelated>

Infidelity is not something that can be swept under the rug. While those who have affairs want to forget about it and move on, those who are betrayed must take very specific steps before they can fully recover. In your case, those steps have not been taken, and as a result, your fear persists. I will send you a complimentary copy of my book, "Surviving an Affair," if you send me your address. It will describe these two steps to you and provide you with a roadmap toward full recovery. But the path will require full disclosure of all details.

First off I'd like to thank anyone who responded to my previous post(s) regarding my wife's recent affair. In a nut shell it was ongoing for about (4) months, it was discovered and I went through hell for the past 2.5 months learning the details of this horrible event. I was most thankful to find this site and the help it provided when answering the tough questions anyone has when in so much pain. I have listed what I have done and am looking for any feedback on where to begin, what to focus on ect...

1. Discovered full extent of PA approx. (4) days ago. Began receiving the "trickling truth" for about (2) days from WS.

2. EXPOSED - to wife of affair partner, his parents, my parents, co-worker of WS and other family members. Kids also told today (very tough) on them.

3. POLYGRAPH scheduled after I was unsure if I received the total truth about affair details from WS.

4. POLYGRAPH taken and PASSED by WS.

5. NC letter being drafted and sent to OM and wife.

I feel my wife and I are at the point to begin our recovery. I have read from other posts that the book entitled Surviving an Affair is to be our first read? Also is their a workbook that we should follow? I want to get into the next stage of what we should do and the best possible plan for recovery.

Also I found that during this affair as I was discovery the details, my WS would use land line telephones and/or public phones in order to make contact with the OM. Does anyone have any suggestions on how this can be monitored? WS knew I was watching her cell phone after I first discovered they were talking. I know this is water under the bridge and I need to focus on recovery, but it still remains in my mind as something that I had no way of watching.

Thanks for all replies

We have combined your thread from MB101 so you can keep them together.

Did you read my posts? I took alot of time and effort to make those posts and I would appreciate a response. If you aren't going to read them, I won't post anymore.

Where do I send my address to. Thanks

Address for what?

KGaa12,

Does anyone have any suggestions on how this can be monitored?

It might be too late to negotiate this, but you could ask for periodic polygraphs as a catch all.

It's not water under the bridge yet that will take time, her affair with OM was an addiction and like any addiction can recur.

You've done a good job rather quickly of killing the affair and getting the truth, by taking the fight to the OM you have reduced the chances OM will contact your WW at anytime in the future. However you should get a list of OMs business, personal etc contacts for more widespread exposure should he contact WW again.

God Bless
Gamma

KG-

I spoke to the kids with my wife in the room, "mommy and OM had a very innappropriate relationship and hurt a lot of people including OMW and (their kid, both of whom we were close with). She acted selfishly and has made a lot of mistakes. We have already started to work out our problems and get on a path to recovery. We will never see OM family again. I need to you to forgive mommy because I have."

We were very close to OM's family for years and this was a very upsetting thing for my kids. They have not mentioned OM's name or his baby's name since that day.

The way you handle this (and by default, how you wife your wife follows thru on the MB steps) is how your kids can come out of it.

I had to be told my my mother on a few occasions that my occasional moments of depression were being noticed by my children. So I stopped them.

Be the hero, dude.

Quite simple for me at this point. I worked extremly hard to expose her affair and is has sucked the life out of me. The details and extent my wife went to to be with this OM have me beleiving that she has lost her love for me and would run to him if things werent such a mess. WW says she loves me and admits to her wrongdoing. She is now crushed to see her family treating her different and her kids in tears....i have told her i love her and we need to work on repairing our marriage. She agrees. I am just having such a hard time wrapping my head around someone that "loves" you and took part in such a deep hurting thing. I dont think she could ever have a relationship with the OM..but i could see her calling him over the next weeks or months. One thing i learned as a result of this is that you cant control everything...Does anyone have any insight on what to watch for or statistics on how many WW actual do recontact and relapse?

That wasnt your wife doing those things. It was an insane, selfish, and destructive person who no longers exists because you were able to stop the things she was doing and replaced them with things conducive to a strong marriage. And, while doing so you laid precautions for BOTH of you so that she has no reason to seek out this this a-hole.

My wife was in a Long Term Affair and if I spend time thinking about the amount of alone time they had over the years I'd go crazy like you are. Wrangling with the thoughts of how I must have meant little to nothing to her while she did this is a fools game that one year later I learned to stop doing.

Our wives are saddled with this for the rest of their lives. Pity them while you show her how stupid she was for doing it by being the best, most attentive H you can be. Understand what she needs that OM gave her.

What she does going forward is what matters and my wife has done nothing after dday to make me think the time with the other guy was anything but a mistake, a long term effing mistake.

She is in year 2 of making up to me the time she spent with him.

I made it clear, to answer your last question, if she made any contact in any way, shape or form, to her OM then its AMF. Me and kids are gone. No debate necessary. I monitor still her emails, cell phone (which we changed numbers), and etc. She made a fool of me but Im not a fool anymore. She tells me where she all day by text and has given me no reason to doubt her.

Put in the precautions to protect yourself. Post nuptual agreement specifying another affair is a goodie. Theres a ton of stuff on here to help you get more security for yourself. Go find it.

Thanks for the encouraging words. Its hard to deal with the pain of the actual affair when ur trying to secure your wife. I originaly thought of relocating right out of town, but she didnt like that to much...this OM is a sweet talker and a friend of my wifes past. This was the second affair that we know of...btw which i also disclosed to his wife..again thanks for the advise..

KGaa12,

This was the second affair that we know of...btw which i also disclosed to his wife

You need to contact the OWH from the first affair, one more force you can bring to bear on OM, one more stone on the GO board to encircle OM.

God Bless
Gamma

Dr. Harley recommends moving when recovery is hindered. I would look into this if either OM lives close.

Just to make it clear it was the Om had an additional affair...not my wife. We r excited to work on recovery, but its been a tough road thus far...wife isstarting to try and mend relationship with our kids, kids tell me their not sure how they feel toward mom. I would like a few more measures in place for NC ever again with OM. I exposed pretty heavy...we r awaiting the surviving an affair book and she is still seeing her therapist Only for working on her personal issues ect..i agree MB is far better for our recovery and affair related issues. I was planning on changing her cell phone number and also calling OM wife and requesting OM BE changed also...any insight....insight

Just to make it clear it was the Om had an additional affair...not my wife. We r excited to work on recovery, but its been a tough road thus far...wife isstarting to try and mend relationship with our kids, kids tell me their not sure how they feel toward mom. I would like a few more measures in place for NC ever again with OM. I exposed pretty heavy...we r awaiting the surviving an affair book and she is still seeing her therapist Only for working on her personal issues ect..i agree MB is far better for our recovery and affair related issues. I was planning on changing her cell phone number and also calling OM wife and requesting OM BE changed also...any insight....insight

KGaa12,

Just to make it clear it was the Om had an additional affair...not my wife.

Understood, but did you contact the OWH from that affair?

God Bless
Gamma

Just to make it clear it was the Om had an additional affair...not my wife. We r excited to work on recovery, but its been a tough road thus far...wife isstarting to try and mend relationship with our kids, kids tell me their not sure how they feel toward mom. I would like a few more measures in place for NC ever again with OM. I exposed pretty heavy...we r awaiting the surviving an affair book and she is still seeing her therapist Only for working on her personal issues ect..i agree MB is far better for our recovery and affair related issues. I was planning on changing her cell phone number and also calling OM wife and requesting OM BE changed also...any insight....insight

Are you reading melodys posts?

KGaa12,

Just to make it clear it was the Om had an additional affair...not my wife.

Yes and the BH from that additional affair is another potential enemy of OM, your enemies enemy is your friend. This is the reason you should expose the other affair.

God Bless
Gamma

My wifes affair ended just recently. It has been a horrible experience. I have followed the guidance of this site and feel it is the reason we are still together this far. The affair has been exposed, she ppassed a poly as to the details of the affair and now we are left with a pretty big mess on our hands. The affair was exposed to my children, one being my 17yo daughter. I exposed it to her without my WW present. She has not spoken, more than just minimal, since hearing the news. She says she is not ready to speak with my wife and is upset because of what she did. She almost sounds like she would rather I leave her because she says " If she loved you dad she wouldnt ha e been with someone else. I am trying to be supportive of everyone around me and my wife at the same time. Our marriage needs attention but its like a separate battle with my wife and daughter. Any advise. Also we are awaiting the arrival of Surviving an Affair. What other products do people recommend for recovery after affair? Other books, videos, courses ect....thanks.

Stick to 1 thread. Ask the moderators to combine your threads, you'll get more response as people can go over your thread and give solid advice.

Many of us have gone through the Marriage Builders course that they offer here. They assign you a trained coach and take you through a course that takes about a year to complete. In it, you are assigned weekly lessons and then given a test afterwards. Throughout the program they measure the romantic love in your marriage to guage the effectiveness of the program. You also have daily access to Dr Harley over on the weekend forum.

Several of us have gone through this program and was worth every penny. It costs around $1000 and that includes all of the MB books, the CD set and access to a video course.

If you are diligent and don't want to spend that kind of money, your best bet is to follow the program outlined in Survivng an Affair. You can also order the workbook that goes with it, Five Steps to Romantic Love. Another great resource is the MB radio show [free] that airs every week day. You can listen to the rebroadcast for 24 hours after each show at the radio link. it is an invaluable resource that will really help you understand how this program works.

Here is the link to the online program: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi9000_courses.html

And I would let your wife resolve her problems with your daughter. Your daughter is rightly very upset because of what her mother did to her family. She risked her family all for what? A big fat loser... She has every right to be angry and your wife will have to deal with it.

The MB Online Program was instrumental in our understanding of how a good marriage works and on our path to recovery.

We tried doing the program on our own, but we really didn't get into like we needed to until we signed up for the Online Program. We needed that discipline.

We had the accountability from our coach and access to her for a year, access to the very valuable private forum in which we were able to pose our questions directly to Dr. Harley, and we can watch the seminars anytime we want to.

Even after the accountability year is over, we still receive the Love Bank inventory and have access to the private forum.

KGAA, Markos and Prisca also went through the course and Markos posted some super posts here about the course: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...at&Number=2644800&gonew=1#UNREAD

Don't try to control your daughter's feelings. She is entitled to make her own adult choice on that. You can reconcile with your wife even if your daughter does not. In fact, if your wife does reconcile with you and make amends, that makes it more likely that your daughter will accept her. Follow the POJA, put your wife first, and let your daughter be an adult and heal at her own pace.

You are actually lucky that your daughter understands your wife is to blame for her own affair. Dr. Harley says it is common for children to blame their father either for having an affair, or for "driving" their mother to have an affair! It sounds like your daughter has an exceptionally good head on her shoulders, so I feel confident things will work out well for her.

Start listening to the radio program DAILY. It's free. It's like an hour of free counseling or marriage class every day. It'd almost be stupid to pass the opportunity up in a severely damaged marriage.

Both of you need to read Surviving an Affair when it arrives. Also, both of you should watch every video on this site. There's a videos link at the top. There's first a video on infidelity, and then several shows teaching Dr. Harley's whole program. It's free! It'd be foolish to pass up the opportunity!

Get Dr. Harley's workbook, Five Steps to Romantic Love. Get Love Busters. Get His Needs, Her Needs or His Needs, Her Needs for Parents. Really, any of the currently in print books are good, and I'd suggest that eventually you get them all, but your main focus now needs to be Surviving an Affair, the workbook, and the two main books (LB and HNHN).

The online courses, and the access to Dr. Harley in his private forum, is excellent.

We are awaiting our book order from MB as of today. My wife and I are civil to eachother and trying to go about our daily routines. My two youngest daughters want to be close to their mother while oldest pretty much ignores her. I told her today that it is her responsibility to work on her relationship with her daughter. Wife says how do you work on it when she won't even speak. I agree with the exposure plan for the solid recovery and marriage. My wife told me today that she feels she is clinically depressed, has a hard time even getting out of bed and getting through the day. I know she must face the consequences of this action but at the same time has to function to rebuild her marriage and the relationships around her. I probably made the mistake of talking abouther emotions as they related to the OM...The other mistake was i think being intiment with her to soon. WW syas i dont beleive her when she says she never opened herself up to the OM like she does me. WW expresses that ya, there was sex, but not in the way as with her husband. I dont know what to do? Stop discussing affair all together? Beleive what I want to beleive and move on with recover? I am at the point that whatever she says i justrespond by saying, whatever you want to do, I'm not going to fight, if she leaves, she leaves... i cant counsel her, my daughter and keep a job and family, while I am the one crushed and devastated one why my rock and foundation for the last sixteen years did such a horrid thing. Not sure, just protecting myself because I know my insides cannot take another punch of pain.

Any sentence like "It's your responsibility" sounds like a disrespectful judgment and was probably a love bank withdrawal for your wife. If we tell you something is her responsibility, that's for your benefit, meaning don't worry yourself to shreds trying to do something that only she can do.

Also, in order to feel intimate, your wife wants to feel like you are partners in life. So if this problem is affecting her, in truth, you need to be with her in her problems, and negotiate solutions together. But POJA them, and don't be willing to do something that won't work (i.e., you try to control how your daughter feels with demands, in order to win points with your wife).


She's passed a polygraph and you got all the information you needed? THen, yes, Dr. Harley's recommendation is to never bring up the affair again.

Have you read the infidelity articles on this website? What articles have you read?

We are awaiting our book order from MB as of today. My wife and I are civil to eachother and trying to go about our daily routines. My two youngest daughters want to be close to their mother while oldest pretty much ignores her. I told her today that it is her responsibility to work on her relationship with her daughter. Wife says how do you work on it when she won't even speak. I agree with the exposure plan for the solid recovery and marriage. My wife told me today that she feels she is clinically depressed, has a hard time even getting out of bed and getting through the day. I know she must face the consequences of this action but at the same time has to function to rebuild her marriage and the relationships around her. I probably made the mistake of talking abouther emotions as they related to the OM...The other mistake was i think being intiment with her to soon. WW syas i dont beleive her when she says she never opened herself up to the OM like she does me. WW expresses that ya, there was sex, but not in the way as with her husband. I dont know what to do? Stop discussing affair all together? Beleive what I want to beleive and move on with recover? I am at the point that whatever she says i justrespond by saying, whatever you want to do, I'm not going to fight, if she leaves, she leaves... i cant counsel her, my daughter and keep a job and family, while I am the one crushed and devastated one why my rock and foundation for the last sixteen years did such a horrid thing. Not sure, just protecting myself because I know my insides cannot take another punch of pain.

You sound (not very surprisingly) very anxious and a bit scattered. Maybe seeing your doc for anti depressants would give you some relief and focus needed for the uphill climb. Dr H recommends BSs do this. It's the worst pain ever.



I imagine your daughter feels very lied to also and is probably totally uninterested in words she can't believe any way. She will prob watch, wait and judge actions. Your wife needs to accept this.



She is still in the deep dark secretive place. Exposure will help this.



Never do that! Facts and logic are your ally. There's no reason you should trust her and you need time to properly heal. She has to actively do the work.



Do you feel she is doing enough? What JC is she putting in place? What EPs?

You should have your guard up at this early stage. She should know she's out the door if she doenst follow through with recovery.

What's your exposure plan? Who is on the list?

You desperately need this support.

Has been exposed to my parents, my brother, my immidiate boss mostly for justified time off when needed, the other BS's wife, her kids the OM's parents and a close friend, co-worker of WW. Will be exposed to wifes brother, just have not been able to. I feel ok, jsut have transformed myself through so much pain to know that in the end, I must be able to survive without her. I feel atleast right now I need to protect myself. I never in my life thought my wife could do such a thing. A full blown affair? Never. Maybe cheat on me? Possibly. The extent of her PA just crushes me in every way. I still love the person I had for so many years, but I often feel that one day someone is going to wake me up and ask me what I've been dreaming about. I sometimes feel like the real her is going to come walking through the door saying it is all untrue. I keep moving on with the small amount of hope that I see the real her and thers some reasonable explanation. All I can is sit back, support her and my family and see how I feel in the days and weeks ahead.

Has been exposed to my parents, my brother, my immidiate boss mostly for justified time off when needed, the other BS's wife, her kids the OM's parents and a close friend, co-worker of WW. Will be exposed to wifes brother, just have not been able to. I feel ok, jsut have transformed myself through so much pain to know that in the end, I must be able to survive without her. I feel atleast right now I need to protect myself. I never in my life thought my wife could do such a thing. A full blown affair? Never. Maybe cheat on me? Possibly. The extent of her PA just crushes me in every way. I still love the person I had for so many years, but I often feel that one day someone is going to wake me up and ask me what I've been dreaming about. I sometimes feel like the real her is going to come walking through the door saying it is all untrue. I keep moving on with the small amount of hope that I see the real her and thers some reasonable explanation. All I can is sit back, support her and my family and see how I feel in the days and weeks ahead.

It IS a separate battle with your wife and daughter. Stay out of it. This is part of the fallout of an affair. You need to let your WW work this out with your daughter. Let your daughter know that you love and support her as well as her mother, but she and your WW need to heal this themselves.

My WW said she would not ne offended and has no problem with a postnumtial. Are they a good idea and are their any examples on how they should read. Id like it to basically say...no contact with the Om and if another affair occurs within the marriage, you give up your right to jointly owned property and i have primary custody of our children. Thats it nothing else. Also we do not live "really" close to the OM, but his parents live within a mile of our new home. My WW ran into him at the local grocery store which I feel was the starting point of this whole mess. On the same note Ww had not seen him prior to this for 20 years. Any thoughts? We live in a small to medium sized city where you do see the same people on occassion. Thanks for the insight.

Another good clip about moving after an affair.
Radio clip on moving locations after an affair

KGaa, PLEASE keep your posts to one thread in order to get the best possible advice. Many wise posters may be ignoring it as they cannot go searching for the back story thread(s) each time.

I consulted with a lawyer who said a contingent post-nuptial agreement was unenforceable, as it represents an individual signing away his or her legal rights under duress.

I would be interested to know if anyone has first-hand knowledge of or documentation regarding an IMPLEMENTED, contingent post-nup.

BV

P.S. Most wayward spouses looking to stay in the marriage have no problems with a post-nup. My husband said to me many times that he would walk away and leave me the house if I ever wanted to divorce.

HOWEVER, when we were ACTUALLY talking about getting a divorce, that offer went out the window and he was putting a 60-40 split on the table.

Contingent post-nuptials are hypothetical, and as one poster reminded me, hypotheticals are worthless - how many of us said, before betrayal, that we would NEVER stay with our spouses after an affair?

Also, STICK TO ONE THREAD!

Dr. Harley seems to think that they are typically a bad idea. I've heard him at least a couple times tell WWs to go to their lawyers and get their postnups undone.

Perhaps you could write him about your situation and see what he says?

I did a post-nup! I'd do it again tomorrow!

A former wayward that has no intention of living a secret separate life again, has nothing to fear from a document that will never be necessary to use.

It becomes no more than a good faith action on the part of a truly repentant former wayward.

"IF" it becomes necessary to enforce the document, then it was well worth the time and effort that was put into place.

My wife and I went to her attorney to have it researched and drafted. The attorney advised we leave custody issues out of the equation in order to insure the enforcement of the document if necessary.
What's in the best interest of a child will always take precedence over any pre-nups or post-nups. Best to deal with that on a separate basis. Document, document, document all the waywards behaviors in regards to your children and keep ongoing journals as needed!

Post-Nups are not necessary in all situations just because an affair has occurred. I prefer to see them requested when a spouse has done significant damage in regards to the marital finances and assets, or one has hidden money in the past.

Just my .02

I had a post-nup drafted. It only addressed a few specific financial issues and it was not contingent upon another affair. Post nups hold up in my state. When presented with the document, my then WH refused to sign it so that was the end of that.

I apologize for not keeping to the same thread. Getting used to how this forum works. I really appreciate all the advise here, it has been a solid guide for me. As many of you know I have exposed my wife's affair, she has indicated NC with OM. She says she has no interest in ever seeing him again and that the affair was dying out anyway. From what she says she told him back in May that she could no longer do this any longer. They did speak after that time, but I found out later those conversations were mostly in an effort to try and cover up the affair as it was being discovered...Didn't work, I had to much information and she ended up passing the poly with anything I was unclear on. WW is hurt as well as myself. She understands that people needed to know and I think she understands what I need as of now. The question I have is (when) does the BS allow the affair to be an event of the past?? I feel like if I don't keep talking about it with my WW or question her feelings for the OM vs her feelings for me, that my WW will simply push this into the past and act as if nothing happened. She says she never loved this OM, never could be in a "real" relationship with him and loves me and always has. WW says she wasn't looking for love, but someone to talk to that would listen to her. That was a consistent complaint of hers in our marriage and she said eventually she looked to this OM as a friend that would hear her out in conversation. The PA occurred because she said the OM was into it and once it happened the first time she admits to continuing her destructive behavior. WW says the sex was not good, just something she felt she owed the OM as a part of getting her EN met... the OM's attention and his ability to make her feel important. I just don't want to make or misjudge my wives feelings. From what I have read, most of these affairs don't make it to quality relationships and fizzle out when the initial spark fades away. Also my WW told me about some times the OM would suggest that they spend more time together just being together and so forth...WW says she was never interested in that...she just enjoyed the conversation and the fact OM was listening which made her feel good. So from this point should I let myself love my wife as I always have in the past??? She knows I am hurt and says over and over that she will do whatever to earn my trust but she can't go on day in and out seeing me depressed and treating her in a non-loving way. Any thoughts....

Just hit notify and ask the MODS to merge all your threads.

If your Dday is recent you need to stop expecting things to better so soon. Your marriage and you have just suffer traumatic blows courtesy of your WW. If her attitude is already one of "I can't go on" your recovery will be all the hard. Recovery is hard no matter what and her crappy attitude isn't going to help. You should be treating her in a loving way but it's understandable that you will have difficulty with this and feel depressed at times...that's why there is the reference to riding the emotional rollercoaster. Sorry but you are going to be on this ride for a long while, with or without marital recovery.

Telling or acting like you should "get over it" is not going to help and will make you feel more resentment. Is she willing to post on MB? Have the two of you looked into ADs. On your other thread you mentioned WW was depressed as well. Have the both been tested for STDs?

Get your threads merged, hon. Can't keep track of you!

As for affair-talk, just because you stop talking about the A doesn't mean it gets swept under the rug.

You are still supposed to talk about your HEALING, and whether she is doing enough to heal you.

You talk about your plan for recovery

Now, priorities:

1) Are you sleeping?
2) Eating?
3) Do you need to see your doc re anti depressants?


Just be still and focus on taking it easy. Breathe in and out. The hard work must be taken on by the wayward. The pain is rough, like a marathon, so take care of your inner athlete.

These may help.
be the lighthouse....for those feeling tossed in the waves
betrayed spouse.......just be still

Once you have all the facts it should not be brought up again.

The state of the marriage that led to the affair should be addressed with vigor because unless you transform your marriage and affair proof it, your marriage will be WORSE off than it was before. It will take a romantic, passionate, intimate marriage to replace the bad feelings you have about the affair.

You should get the book, Surviving an Affair and follow the program outlined in there. But didn't I already tell you this?

Did you read my post?

KG, you can't rush recovery. Ask your questions. Get your answers. After you've gotten them, stop asking the questions.

Have you read Surviving an Affair? What is your plan for recovering your marriage? What have you done so far to recover?

I am awaiting the arrival of several books from MB. I hope to have a firm plan to recovery after reading them. WW and I r getting along with some small details about the affair I question from time to time. I often tell her I dont want to talk about it anymore and just try to focus on what her EN are to improve our marriagr while at the same time makin sure she is doing the things I need to do to feel secure.....

^^^this. i came into this thread especially to say that! it's really annoying not to have all the info in one place. KGaa, why do you feel the need to start so many threads on the same M? do you think you're going to get other advice? please don't answer me here

I feel I am having a tougher time with things as things move along. I'm not doing well. Everytime I look at my gorgeous wife I think aboit what the OM got to experience and what was taken from me. My WW is doing everything I ask..she took the poly and passed, more than willing to put safeguards in place, said she even take future poly's to verify she never spoke to OM again. I heard more and more how the OM told my wife he loved her and would leave his wife for mine...how he missed her and wished they could spend quality time more often ect....my wife saya she never wanted that and how she told him she would never leave her husband for him..WW just keeps saying that she was there for the fact of feeling important, listened to, and understood. She admits OM was in search of more, but she never wanted it. Ww admits to feelings of addiction to the thrill of the affair, but says that wore out and she was heading down the path of breaking things off. So much to try and figure out and understand..

I'm sorry to place an additional post, but my previous one was lost in the shuffle without much response. As many of you know, my WW had a four month affair with an exboyfriend of her distant past. I know of the OM to speak, but never good friends. My WW is thus far on board to rebuild our marriage. She took and passed poly and affair has been exposed. We just received a handful of books from MB to include surviving an affair. I love my wife but am having a very difficult time viewing her as the same person. She says she has always loved me and thw affair started out as a EA and progressed to a PA. She says she never fwlt in love with the OM only that she was attracted to the conversation and how he made her feel important. I look at her now and see and feel that she is no longer "my wife" but someone that was shared and a part of another persons life. She wants to do whatever to rebuild our marriage but is very difficult to view her in the same light. We have spoke about relocating to get a freah start without all the triggers of our past. We have been intimant but it makes me feel as if I am being compared to their PA. Again sorry for the additional post.

AAAggghhhh, I can't believe you did it agian!!

KGaa12,

Are you back to having relations with your WW?

Are their things she did with OM she never did with you or is unwilling to do now?

Is your WW no longer orgasmic with you or less so?

Could you please combine your threads, there is a great loss of continuity which makes it difficult for people.

God Bless
Gamma

The reason you don't get responses anymore is because you don't respond or even acknowledge the posts you do get. I have made several posts to you and you didn't acknowledge a single one. If you want to get responses, then stick to one thread and respond to the posters. That is basic forum etiquette.

People are not going to take the time to post to you if you ignore their posts.

What in the world?? What is the point of these questions?

All you have to do is post to it again with the word "bump." That will bring it back to the top for people to see.

Also, be sure to be active in educating yourself in Marriage Builders concepts. Don't expect to be spoonfed, don't ask the same questions over and over again, and pay attention to and act on the answers you get. Recovery is not for wimps, nor for people who need to be spoonfed. (I am not saying that you are; I am not following your sitch. Just saying this is common.) It simply won't work if you don't assume responsibility for educating yourself.

So if you constantly ask questions that have already been answered, you will find people don't get a rewarding experience in posting to you, and they will stop or slow down.

Reread everything that has been posted to you, regularly. Many times people are an emotional basketcase and they are told what to do but miss it, and they keep asking and arguing and debating instead of acting on the plan. Frankly, nobody wants to tell somebody over and over again how to recover if they are not going to take the advice.

Reread your threads, and make a todo list. Then, follow the todo list.

Also, start a plan to read through ALL of the articles on this website. ALL of them.

Melody,

There appears to be some parts of the male brain you don't understand, but perhaps that's too general and it only applies to me. Point 3 is likely to decide if I divorce.

God Bless
Gamma

What I do understand is how marriages recover from affairs so I know that your questions have nothing to do with that goal, but are more about your own personal obsession in your own marriage.

You are upset with the idea that a WW will do things with the OM that she would not do with the husband and are under the false impression that she, therefore, OWES her husband the same treatment. That is NOT in line with Marriage Builders concepts at all.

I hope you don't intend to muddy the waters of this thread with that issue.

Are you helping him understand Harley's plan for recovery? Or helping him understand your own personal criteria for ending a marriage?

What does Harley have to say about point 3? Do you know? Are you willing to find out?

KGaa, you have so many posts that people have no idea what your situation is about and what is going on. I tried to find your "original" thread but that thread didn't contain any logical sequence of events/background for people to understand.

Here is your first original thread.
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=166862&Number=2644844#Post2644844

It would be wise to stick to THAT thread, ONLY, and please add a post to it describing the circumstances of your situation, such as:
Your age(s), any children, when this all happened, what exactly happened, and what you've done so far in terms of MB concepts or non-MB concepts.

Right now, all your posts are just a muddled mess and nobody can make sense of them. In fact, with SO MANY threads, people are almost certainly intentionally avoiding them out of annoyance because it is bad forum etiquette.

This is not a blog -> it is a place to get solid help. If you want help, that's fine, but it's not going to happen through random blogging.

Thank you for all your responses, actually to all my posts over the last weeks since the discovery of the affair. I credit MB and the folks thag have responded to me when at my worst. I think my posts in my mind are more of trying to update those that know the situation as to where things have progressed or not progressed as time has moved forward. As the initial shock has somewhat worn off I have felt at times unsure if I can move on and ever see my WW in the same light. I apoligize for not responding to all of your helpful comments. I will be sure to reply to all in some fashion. Again thanks, and I appreciate all the help to this point.. God Bless...

Melody.

The point is that men have nowhere to voice those kinds of anxieties which are very real no matter how unimportant they are to their wives. But just saying they don't matter does not make them disappear.

In many cases men can't even admit them to themselves.

God Bless
Gamma

This is your own personal ox to gore, though, and it has no place on the thread of someone who is here to learn about Marriage Builders. You have this issue because you have not recovered your own marriage.

If you are struggling with this issue, why not start up your own thread and ask how Dr Harley would approach this issue? Making endless complaints about your problem on the threads of newcomers is disruptive.

EGG ZAK LEE !!!!!!

In fact, I will start such a thread for YOU, Gamma.

Here you go, Gamma. All your own!

Not sure if you guys will see this post...WW and I have remained together at this point. It has been since about July 8th since WW has taken and passed poly. This is about the same time WW last spoke with OM. That final time was at my request. (mistake I know). WW and I have been up and down over past weeks. I have been trying to shove MB plan down her throat, maybe to much at times, and she has been slowly coming around with requests I have made. I convinced her to post on here, which she did, but was upset at the initial harsh responses she received. She has continued to post, but is not a huge fan of MB. She said we got the books, cant we focus on reading them? You want me to read the books, put posts online to total strangers, have time to talk woth you, work, tend to our kids ect.... I will admit I have continued to question here about small details about her affair...i know Dr. H is against this, I am trying my best to refrain from it. Wife has independently read portions of SAA, and after she began to understand the format of what needs done, she has complied. She changed her cell number at my request, is in process of shutting down FB page, has looked over and said to send NC letter, and has offered to take part in annual poly exams to ensure me Nc with OM. Should I just sit back and let her do what she's learning to do with this? I fear she still has feeling for OM, and is taking baby steps because she is umsure of herself and if she can totally commit to me....She says she just needs time to digest and learn what needs to be done. She also says that if she is not the one doing this stuff recommended "on her own" how will it mean anything to me....any advice on what I should do at this time?

Hi, KGaa,

One thing you need to understand about Marriage Builders: you as the husband will play a crucial role in recovery. You need to make enough Love Bank deposits in your account in your wife's Love Bank to pass the romantic love threshold, where she will fall in love with you.

One of your crucial tools for doing this will be conversation. And the conversation has to be good, intimate conversation. Look in your copy of His Needs, Her Needs, and you will see Dr. Harley lays out four "friends" of good conversation, and four "enemies" of good conversation.

ACTION STEP: review the friends and enemies of good conversation daily. Practice the friends. Avoid the enemies.

It is crucial that you become the best possible conversation partner for your wife. It is indispensable. Your marriage will not recover without it. With it, however, along with affection and time together, your wife will fall in love with you. And when she does, you will find that she is committed to you.

There will probably be some burden on you to become a good conversation partner even without her yet being committed, if you want to recover this marriage. Her feelings are going to be all over the map, but in the midst of that, you can become a good husband to talk to if you will take those friends and enemies of good conversation seriously.

Now, notice closely that one of the enemies of good conversation is dwelling on mistakes of the past or present. So, find something to talk about besides the affair. It stands to reason that none of us wants to be continually reminded of our mistakes.

Some of this is likely to be awkward for awhile.

KGaa, have you listened to the radio show? I seriously suggest you start listening. Sit in "class" with Dr. Harley daily. You need it.

Regarding your wife's complaints about not having time with the kids: you will find that the Marriage Builders program specifies meeting a need for Family Commitment by scheduling fifteen hours a week together as a family, mom and dad both present, teaching your children your values. This can be doing anything fun or enjoyable, as long as you are spending time together as a family.

Perhaps if you start doing this, your wife will feel less like the kids are being neglected. This is an important emotional need for her!

I appreaciate the guidance here. So should I expose her to MB at her own pace. I've tried to encourage her to post only because it is so helpful. She did and has a few times, but said people were very harsh on her and she is depressed enough and needs more encouragment than "salt in her wounds"... I give her credit for reading SAA with me and doing the things I've asked. WW has also agreed to my request of NC letter. I know I've kinda asked this before...but WW hasn't spoke with OM for atleast two weeks now. She told OMW after receiving a phone call that she did not wish to speak with OM again...WW has no problem with me sending NC letter, but I kinda feel like she does...know this #$%& might think my wife is thinking of him and he may try to contact her if it hursts his little heart...she's kinda out of sight out of mind now....I think I know the answer but just wanted to put it out there......

Steve H is good with reluctant spouses.

I'm sorry to say she sounds super foggy still. Much more 'poor me' than 'how can I heal you'

This is pretty normal for WWs. But don't let her off with it. If she continues, tell her she's only got one shot to keep you. That you won't stay in an unhealed M.

You're also keeping her triggered and in the fog with Qs. OM doesn't matter.



"Of course you shouldn't bother with it unless you are enthusiastic, darling!

I need healing to allow you to stay. That doesn't mean you have to stay".

I did not see an answer to my question.

here


[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, XXXXX

Just a little clarity on the topic of NC letter. Just to bring everyone who was kind enough to post replies. My wife and I are doing the best we can to get through an affair she had that went on for about 3-4 months. As you know she was reluctant at first to tell the truth but eventually "came clean" and ended up willfully passing a poly at my request. She has also willingly shut down her FB account, changed her cell number and has done other little things, such as calling when leaving work to let me know she is on her way, leaving her cell phone out in the open as a gesture to know I am free to look at whatever may be going on in her life. Anyway I give her credit for trying to wrap her head around all of these MB principles and such to bring what she needs to make me feel like we are on our way to recovery. The thing I fear most is re-contact with the OM. I have been able to gather what I feel is enough information to say that the OM was at least a bit more "head over heals" for my wife. My wife admits that OM fulfilled her EN of conversation, appreciation, and importance in her life...this is right in line with what I admit I was failing to do over the last few years together. She said she will have NO further contact with OM. She admits to the feelings as the affair wound down of "withdraw", but she feels she is now over that and has NO interest in speaking with this guy ever again. I told her about the NC letter and she has NO absolute problem with sending it if that's what MB recommends and what I need. BUT I see a point she made...this guy has not had the benefit of hearing, seeing or knowing that my WW even exists anymore..(just the way I like it)..and then all of sudden dip$%#@^ goes to the mailbox and see's a letter handwritten by his lost lover...my wife! "Oh, what must she want?, to meet up?, was she thinking about me?, or what did her H make her do now that he is pissed off because of this? OM reads the letter and say's Noooooo, you mean your never gonna speak with me again...ever...., oh boy I gotta find some way to speak with her about this....Next thing you know is OM is calling her at a work number I can't track, waiting for her outside of work, to tell her, "this can't be" you mean it's done for good?

Does anyone see my point here? This guy really liked my wife. In his sick mind he would look at a NC letter as a way to rekindle something, no matter if there is nothing there on her part....I am a firm believer in MB and it's principles. I feel my wife is also seeing that ring more true. Again she has told me to send the letter which she wrote and I've reviewed. Just looking for any opinions and how I can ensure this A@#$%$# stays clear of my wife and doesn't screw up our recovery.

I have mentioned the relocating option to my wife. She said she will do what needs to be done, BUT, we both have stable employment here, just built a new home together, our family is all here and her view is that we are strong enough to get through this and we shouldn't allow OM to push us out of our home, he can leave for all we care.

Thanks again and sorry so long.....

KGaa,
While I see your point, I think there is benefit in writing the NC letter just the same. It is not only for the OM, but also for your wife.

I wrote a NC letter "after the fact" when I had no contact with OM for over a month. He came driving by my workplace, honking his horn and waving at me. I called my husband immediately. I was MAD and UPSET and SCARED. That next day I wrote a NC letter...and my husband called the OM and had a meeting in person with him where he gave him my letter.

For me, it wasn't so much for the OM. It was my offering of being proactive and telling him to leave me alone forever. It was something I could do for my husband. In the past, I had been very protective of the OM (still foggy). This was my way of standing up for my family.

Kgaa, I don't really want updates, yet. I want to know if you are listening. And if you are following the suggestions you receive.


I'm not sure this is true. I think you could do better, if you'd listen more. I'm not sure you're listening here, and I'm not sure you're going to make it.

Reposting:


Have you acted on my suggestion? (I bolded it for you.)


Have you acted on this suggestion?


Have you acted on this suggestion?

Hmm. I dont like that suggestion she not send it. Red flag.

One of the top ten wayward lies is 'I dont need an NC letter because there is no NC'

If he called her at work she'd hang up and tell you about it of course. Add in a line about 'My spouse will be told of all contact attempts' if you want to deter him further. Send a follow up lawyers letter about harrasment if you need to, but cut him out NOW rahter than let this hang over you forever. Right now what's to stop him getting bored at some point in the future and calling her up to rekindle stuff? Nothing.

I have been doing ALL of the suggestions here from MB...exposed affair, wife completed poly, I told our kids alone about A, bought 5 of Dr. H books and are reading with WW, WW changed cell number, shut down FB, and NC letter was sent today after authored by wife...WW have neen spending time together and working on sorting out EN when doing this... I have been trying to stick to my exercise program that was in place prior to A..WW and I made it a point to jog together the other night....I feel we are doing all we can at a pace that I have learned the MB principles....WW has posted and we have both listened to the MB radio...I signed up for the archives in order to better listen.... One question I'd like a little insight on is oupr kids...I told all 3 of the A as recommended....they're hurt of course......The 2 youngest r much better as I dont think they grasp the entire thing.....WW has offered to speak with all of them, whenever ready.......17 yo daughter basically won't speak to WW...their relationship wasn't great prior to A.....WW accepts fault with A, but is unsure on how to approach...there relationship needs healed and worked on...any suggestions???i though I heard Dr. H speak of a book for mother daughter relationships?

KGaa12,

17 yo daughter basically won't speak to WW...their relationship wasn't great prior to A.

Expect your 17 DD to need as much time as you do to recover, a cheater cheats on their children too.

The good news is that recovery can happen since everything is out in the open.

Recovery between my FIL and W almost NEVER happened as he never owned up to his serial cheating and OCs until he was in his 70's. There was never open conflict between them, but just years and years of my Ws distrusting her Father and years and years of FILs guilt and secrecy.

God Bless
Gamma

Should we move??? Many of you have read my situation and have been very helpful in getting me (us) to the point we are...My WWhas been doing all that I ask, took POLY, wrote and sent NC letter, put and continues to put in place "precautions", has read SAA faster than I could and has printed out the forms to prepare our EN ect....I think she is comming out of the fog and is serious about this and the MB plan. I have also been reading. One struggle I am having is clearing my mind of my WW and the OM. We have not been intimant since the discovery as I feel that I am not ready. WW understands and tells me it is up to me when it is the right time. WW has moved on to reading "His needs, her needs" and continues to reassure me the A is over and she is 100% focused on us. I am just so reluctant to let my guard down and open myself up to her. I have been reading numerous posts here as well as listening to the radio archives that I subscribed to. All I hear is to focus on "her" emotional needs over and over again. I feel as if I am just stuck in a rut waiting to be hurt again. The area we live is only approx. 220k people. You often run into the same people over time. I just fear that things could be rekindled and it will be all for not. The other fear I have is my WW almost followed Dr. Harleys predictions to a "T". After I looked into the A, WW went an entire month (April) without seeing OM and then in early May, met with OM again and had a full blown PA. WW insists she is done and has not seen OM since that time. This was verified via Poly. Was WW going through "withdrawl"? Should I beleive now that it IS done? WW has really followed all of MB principles and continues to do so. A part of me just feels that I need to get out of this town so as to not risk it. Any thoughts??

My thoughts? If you're not 1000% comfortable in that town after DDay, move.

One thing I would do as a condition is demand she get back on her thread and let these people help and guide her in rebuilding what she has broken. Yeah, she's gonna get beat up on a little, but it's that little thing called tough love that usually has a pretty good ending if the one on the receiving end is willing to listen and learn. The folks here know what they are doing, and your wife (and you as well) would be making a huge mistake not taking advantage of what is being offered.

Good clip about moving after an affair.
Radio clip on moving locations after an affair

WW and I have read SAA. We have His needs Her Needs the workbook and Love Busters. We have started to read HNHN. Will doing this in this sequence be just as affective as the on-line program?? We have subscribed to the MB Radio archives and been picking seveal of those to listen to also. I honestly just don't have the $1,000 it costs after picking up the aftermath of this A, cost of poly, travel to have it done ect...Don't get me wrong I can't put a price tag on my marriage but if we can read the books and do the workbook can we do just as well???Thanks again...

I wanted to post on emore thought in case anyone can chime in on this...I reread my post from day one when I discovered the A. I see all the lies and eventually I came to my sences and had her take apoly. WW passed, but as many of you know you can only get and verify so much with a poly. I appraoched it as I wanted to get the nuts and bolts of it and make sure that certain things that were "deal breakers" were answered. Those things were to her credit and I have tried VERY hard to stop taking about the A with WW. I keep comming up with intricate detail questions mostly about each PA. These kind of things WW has elaborated on quite a bit, more than I ever wished to know, but for some reason I feel are important to my mindset to move on. All I read though is STOP taking about A after poly. I guess it doesnt matter what positions they were in during PA, what WW was wearing ect...but for some reason it bugs the $%#@ out of me. The other things is Extrodinary Precautions. WW has done all I've asked and then some, but we all know that "where theres a will theres a way" and that's how I feel. NC letter was sent, phone number changed, I feel I have access to all electronic communication ect. Yea, WW could go to a local store and ask landline phone (WW did it during affair after I found out they were taking), could ask to use a friends cell phone (did this also). I feel I have put and/or asked for as many EP as possible but feel there is still gaps. We have discussed relocating, but are unsure of uprooting entire family (OM wins then). I hope people are not too qucik to bash WW as she has done whatever I've asked as far as EP and then some. I just know that there are still ways they could reach out to eachother if they wished. WW has agreed to take yearly poly's to put my mind at ease in this area as well as a post-nup if I wished. Thoughts...

KGaa, get her back on her thread. Make it mandatory. I think at the point you and your WW are now, you could recover this with nothing more than the help of this board, but the folks here can't help if she won't step up and get involved.

Wife of KGaa, get back here. I read your short thread, and believe it or not, you really didn't get hammered that much at all. In fact, I thought it was quite subdued to be honest. You're going to get some tough love here, and some of it WILL hurt, but none of the advice or 2X4s you receive are meant to be anything more than to clear your head and help you rebuild what you have destroyed, okay? Your BH has found the best resource possible to repair your marriage, and you would be making a terrible mistake not jumping back in and taking full advantage of it.

You're familiar with the phrase looking a gift horse in the mouth, aren't you? Well, that's what you're doing, at your own marital peril. I know you're smarter than this, but scared. Hell, terrified may be more applicable. We all understand this.

Please come back. The people here really do want to help you and your husband. All you have to do is reach out and ask for it.

Hope to see you soon!

Oh, and one more thing you really should remember. This board is completely anonymous. Your identity will stay a secret for as long you wish it to. There really is no reason for you to fear this place. Seriously, what do you have to lose? But more importantly, what do you have to gain?

Think about it.

Kgaa, just what are you looking for from this board? Seriously. You spot post here and there, then stop. You never answer in a timely fashion. You get your WW to start posting, and then she abandons ship as well because she got her little feelings hurt for being called out on her bad choices and actions by people she doesn't even know and will never meet.

Are you just looking for somewhere to blog? If that's the case, then fine, but please let everyone know so that they can stop wasting their time on you and spend it more constructively on people that are actually serious about recovering their marriage.

I'll hang up and listen, oops, I mean, wait........

again.

First off, I'm sorry some feel as if I "spot" post. Believe me I have better things to do with my time then "blog". I made two previous posts relative to some of the difficulties I am having after my WW A. (1) the reaccurring thoughts of the details of the PA which prompts me to continue to bring up the A to her (not good as Dr. Harley says) (2) Regarding EP's. I questioned wether or not those who have been through this feel I have enough in place to have a succesful recovery. I have been through Hell with this A and was lucky to find this site for support. In between what I feel I need to ask is a family deeply hurt which needs my attention...not to mention reading and following the books from MB. Among all that my WW and I still have to live in the world of work and supporting our family. I am not here to Blog or chat to make myself feel better! I want to gain the insight from those who are supposed to know what has worked and has not. I f I am doing what I best need to be, then leave it at that and I'll move on..otherwise provide positive insight from experience.

And just how can you gain this insight by not giving timely updates? You think I'm busting on you, but I'm trying to help you.

I don't think my questions were out of line. Sorry if they pissed you off.

I have made an effort to give updates as my WW and I moved through the steps. When WW was not comming clean I listened and requested the POLY. WW took it and passed. Began to put in place EP. Sent NC contact letter. Ordered MB books to start program to the best of our ability. When I started to provide updates, I was told by another poster that "we don't need updates, just do what your told"....Ok, I am and had a couple questions and this is the response I get. I beleive in the MB program and feel it will recover our marriage. But positive insight and advise is better taken when people are actually moving in the right direction...save the 2x4's for those that are not listening to what is said and give credit to those that are.

Best of luck.

what should I be doing different?, What did I miss? Answer anyone?

Are you trying to move?

WW and I have discussed this option. I have looked at the job market in a couple places and we have discused a (1) week trip to check it out. WW states "I understand your point of view" triggers, fear of contact ect...and she states if that's what will make you feel better I will do it. We have a lot going for us here and part of me feels like trying to let WW make me feel secure. The other part says, move, and ther are no worries....

Dr. Harley often advocates moving after an affair.

Fresh start.

Why is your WW not posting?

x2

Moving has it's pros and cons but when you say this, "The other part says, move, and ther are no worries...." what do you mean by no worries?

ETA: What is your WW's username?

Also did you get into your doctor for ADs?

Were you and your WW tested for STDs?

What program did you end up signing up for?

Are you still talking about her affair?

What are her top EN?

How much UA time are you getting?

Blackraven,

His wife is whathappened76.

KGaa12,

We are here for you and want your M to survive.

The answer to your question is, it depends on if you can be motivated to do it.

Many of us have tried to get through the program on our own, failed to stick with it, and that's where the accountability program comes in; they help motivate you to go through it. Other people have done it on their own.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8114_plan.html

I would say, both of you, throw yourselves into this. It sounds like you are doing the reading. Supplement that with the radio show, the articles on this site.

Read and post on some other people's threads, and listen closely if we chime in and tell you you are mistaken about something. This is a great way to make sure you are getting the program understood correctly.

Finally -- are the two of you following Dr. Harley's Policy of Undivided Attention? Are you spending 15+ hours per week alone together, with no kids (who are awake), at a time when your energy is highest, giving each other your undivided attention, meeting the intimate emotional needs of recreational companionship, intimate conversation, affection, and sexual fulfillment? Is it the best part of your week, for both of you? Following this policy faithfully is the single best predictor of your success.

KGaa12,

Google Retroactive Jealousy.... although not directly on point for you and your situation, you may find some assistance concerning insecurity. For those of us in therapy for this OCD, you will find the many articles insightful, I'm sure. Good Luck.

Hey, KGaa,

One of the most important things you need to do in recovery, as a husband, is to get your wife to fall in love with you again. When she is in love with you you will be amazed at the changes. It is very hard for a wife to meet her husband's emotional needs when she is not in love; but when she is in love, her hormones prompt her to go after it!!

So this burden tends to fall on husbands of all stripes, in all marriages, whether they were unfaithful or whether their wives were unfaithful. And even in marriages where infidelity hasn't entered the picture.

A lot of us guys have a lot of trouble with this.

One of the most important things for your wife falling in love with you (and vice versa, actually) is to have good, intimate conversation. Intimate conversation talks about personal details of your life, and it has to be pleasant and enjoyable for both husband and wife. Even if it is not a top need for one or both of you, it needs to be there or the two of you will not be in love. And even if it is not a top need, it still needs to be enjoyable, because if it is not enjoyable you won't be motivated to do a lot of it, and you will avoid it, or treat it like a "chore," which will keep it from meeting the actual need your wife feels.

Dr. Harley has a concept called "friends and enemies of good conversation." This concept is a guide to help clueless husbands (and sometimes wives) make conversation enjoyable and fulfilling. There are four "friends" of good conversation, things you need to try to do in order to make the conversation enjoyable. There are four "enemies" of good conversation, things you need to avoid AT ALL COSTS because they will make the conversation miserable instead of enjoyable and fulfilling.

The goal is to feel romantic love for each other for a lifetime. To do that, you have to deposit love bank units. A major component of the plan to do that is enjoyable, fulfilling intimate conversation.

I strongly encourage you to read the friends and enemies of good conversation in His Needs Her Needs. If you have Dr. Harley's workbook, there is a conversation feedback form that the two of you can exchange weekly in order to be able to let each other know what enemies, if any, are cropping up, and what friends (if any?) you are hitting. I strongly encourage you guys to get that form and start exchanging it weekly.

And make sure you are spending fifteen hours a week alone, in person, engaged in this kind of conversation. You will find this recommendation mentioned from Dr. Harley, in His Needs Her Needs.

This is crucially important!

To sum up: learn, review, and practice the "friends and enemies of good conversation" so that your wife enjoys and looks forward to conversation with you. This is crucial for recovery!

Thanks for all the replies. I will focus on the areas of His Needs Her Needs realted to conversation. We have been making it a point to spend quality time together. I will take the advise given here and keep better track of that so we ensure the proper amount of time is being given. My wife has posted and it made me very happy to see that she is reaching out for help in irder to save our marriage. She has always been very reluctant in her life to lean on others for help and this is no different. I'm sooo happy that she is using these resources (it shows me that she wants this). We are reading Love Busters and following the workbook sections as applicable. I still feel that maybe the online program would be easier to follow in a structured way, but the cost is just no feasible now. We'll see how doing it on our own goes before I take that leap. Thanks again and I will continue to post as things come up as I hope she does. I know on her post she is very concerned on how to rebuild her realtionship with her oldest daughter. Does anyone feel the bokk His Needs/Her Needs (Parents) could help in this fashion?

KGaa, let me add that I can tell that you are having a problem with one of the enemies of good conversation, so give them all special attention.

Regarding the cost of the accountability program: I think you'd find it to be well worth it, and I hope you can do it some day! But in the meantime, I hear you guys are listening to the radio show, which is very good. Get educated!

Regarding your daughter: Dr. Harley recommends that in order to meet the emotional need of family commitment, that you spend fifteen hours a week together as a family, and during this time you are teaching your children your values, and the biggest value he suggests teaching your children is thoughtfulness.

But you will find that building a healthy loving relationship with each other is probably the most important thing you can do for your daughter.

You will also find that your daughter is growing up and the time is fast approaching when she will make her own decisions. To a great extent, you are going to have to let her.

Yes, His Needs Her Needs For Parents has some good stuff for you about parenting. Basically, parent using the policy of joint agreement! Start with a problem (relationship breakdown with your daughter) and solve it together using Dr. Harley's four guidelines to successful negotiation (this will involve lots of respectful communication and brainstorming over a possibly long period of time, and possibly some experimentation). You will come up with better solutions (and thus be better parents) than either of you could have been on your own.

You might also check out this article:

Caring for Children Means Caring for Each Other

One of the most important things for your wife falling in love with you...is to have good, intimate conversation...So this burden tends to fall on husbands of all stripes, in all marriages, whether they were unfaithful or whether their wives were unfaithful. And even in marriages where infidelity hasn't entered the picture. A lot of us guys have a lot of trouble with this.

A bull's-eye, if there ever was one.

If I had the ability to imprint a single thought into the mind of every groom, as he swaps the "I do's" at his wedding, it would be, "Talk to your wife. A lot. Even when she doesn't want to talk to you."

I will focus on the conversation end of our relationship and continue with our reading material. As stated before I struggle most with the "visions" of the physical part of the A. Intimatcy was a large and sacred part of our relationship in my mind and the worst thing that could have happened is my beautiful wife being a part of someone elses world. It tears at me in the worst of ways. I'll keep pressing on. I appreciate the help.

KGaa,

Those painful thoughts will fade as you heal, and you will heal as you follow the program.

But if the painful thoughts are so strong that they make it hard to follow the program (for example, if you lash out at your wife, or refuse to be around her, or if you aren't enjoyable to be around) Dr. Harley recommends you consider asking your doctor to prescribe antidepressants for a period of time. That helps keep you rational and even enough to think clear headedly and follow the recovery plan, and then you won't need them.

I am a BS and know exactly where you are coming from. This is why I personally did not press for all the gory details of FWW�s A. They get burned into your brain forever. But, that is just me.

We are almost 7mo�s into our R and I can tell you that if your W truly steps up to the plate here and does the right things, you can form a stronger bond then you have ever had. Obsessing on the details will eat you up my brother. It does get easier with time once you learn live in the �now�. Not easy. Not easy AT ALL. I struggle with it too.

If you have spend any time on this forum and have read some of the FWW�s posts here concerning their A's (the ones out of the fog), you will realize that what she had with the POSOM, was nothing more than a lie. A relationship based on nothing more than a fantasy. It wasn�t real. What you have with her IS REAL.
Makes me sick to think about my FWW giving herself to another but I have her NOW and forever.

I won.


Don�t be too hard on yourself at this stage. Things are so fresh for you now. Believe me, I know. Incorporating MB�s into your lives and following the program exactly as outlined will give you the best chance to survive this.
Some of us tend to put too much pressure on ourselves to heal. Remember, marathon not a sprint!

Be true to yourself my man. Keep your boundaries and expectations for yourself HIGH. She will respect you for it.

It just infuriates me that some humans that call themselves a �man� can attack a M. Anyone who is a real man knows the guy code is that you NEVER mess with another man�s woman. Period. Anyone who does is a POS with NO honor. A waste of space on this earth.

Depending on what rational/irrational perspective you are coming from, I will say they can prove very very helpful. And they are not a big deal.

KGaa12 your story struck a nerve with me and I so emphasize with your pain and want to give you my encouragement!

You are at the right place these guys have been right where you are and are so good at guiding you down R road!
Stick to the plan it works! I stopped coming to MB for a while and as D-Day +1YR. loomed I ran back! Stay connected to this great life line.

What I have come to understand is each individual has to decide on how much info is enough for them.

It seems to move agonizingly slow but the images do move out from the fore front of your mind as you implement Dr. Harley's plan.

Find YOUR way of coping that works for you in the confines of the MB way.
This pain has multiple wounds. As one heals another rises up to torment you. What drove me start posting on MB was just what you posted.
The high-definition images in my head were starting to inter fear with the R FWW was starting with me.

What I discovered worked for me was to double down on meeting FWW's EN and by doing this I found my mind was able to look forward and not always backwards.

I also found answers from scripture Proverbs chapters 5-6-7-30 taken with FWW's honest answers to my hard questions worked for me. There again what works for "YOU" is what you have to find. Good luck, stay here and hold on!

I wanted to take the time to write to you again.

I�ve followed your thread and posted on here and on your wife�s thread. I want to say that you are embarking on something that I, and many, probably would not do: that being R. I look at a marriage as a team membership whereby each member has an arsenal of nuclear weapons at their disposal, and can push the button or threaten to push the button at any time. Your W pushed the button. Whether it be real or threatened, the melt down or virtual melt down occurred. Now you and your W are going back in to clean up the devastation. Good luck. I think by using the MB principles you stand the best chance of make a thriving farm or ranch from the waste land that was created. You are at least trying something that I probably would not attempt.

You comment about visions. Some visions may never truly go away. Many people in different walks of life have learned to deal with these visions. You will learn to realize when they are coming, and can let them flood in, or find and learn ways to strangle them. Maybe they will die eventually, but I think there will always be events that ignite these visions for which you need to be prepared. Time helps. Again Good Luck !!

Thanks again to all that have taken their time to provide insight. WW and I are currently reading Love Busters and using workbook. I have been trying everyday not to mention the A to W. It's very hard. I atruggle with the fact when something so painful happens in your life you tend to look to your spouse for comfort....well thats tough to do when she was the cause of it. Anyway, we r working to spend time together and keep at the MB program daily. She has scheduled an appointment for STD check...we have backes off feom intimantcy until then. WW says she feels "dirty" in a sense and she can tell I look at her in that way....I told W that the test is out of respect for me cuz no matter what she thought of OM, she can onlu expect me not to have an ounce of trust in him and where he's been in life...again thanks for the continued help......

This might be a good series to listen with your W.

An excellent show that the Harley's talked to the BW and WH. You could still hear the resentment (understandably so) in the BW's voice. Also Dr. Harley explains how if he didn't live by his EP's he would've been just like the WH.

Radio Clip on a BW and WH married for 38 years and he had an affair for 8 years
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4
Segment #5

Doing ok day to day...Trying to read, read l, read and spend time with WW. We have spent more time together doing different things than wver before. I continue to do my checks and balances....One question I have is related to exposure? A has been exposed to most people surrounding us, this was done upon discovery....there is one person that is unaware of the A and that is brother of WW...he is very busy with work and hard to get in touch with...weeks have gone by since initial exposure, but during the PA, WW met OM at brothers place once. I know it was against the advice here but I told WW that she needs to tell him so as not to continue a life that contains lies. WW says she will and like me is looking for the right time when he's available. WW also said "go ahead and tell him". I said I will.....he needs to know. How should I proceed? I do understand that he should have been told at the onset, but that did not happen. Thanks..

he is very busy with work and hard to get in touch with

1)Dial 1-xxx-WWSIBLING.
2)Leave a message for him to call you when he can.
3)Tell him when he calls.

I will get in contact with him today. I know I've read on here the proper way to break this news to him about the affair. My wife and him are probably the closest within their family. I want to make sure that her brother supports her and our marriage and doesn't just get upset about the affair and tries disown her. I feel that my wife and I are in the recovery stage of this affair and I don't want this is news to her brother to be more problematic then good. My wife's parents divorced years ago after 18 years of marriage and her brother is still resentful to the parents for how their marriage ended up. Any advice so this doesn't backfire and hurt our recovery process. Thanks.

Any advice so this doesn't backfire and hurt our recovery process.

Uhh-ohhh! I detect that you have seen her before play the "Oh-woe-is-me" passive-aggressive crap.

You know the type: "Oh, do want you want (go fishing, expose to family, buy a truck), honey", and then await the smallest problem (you get home late, her brother disowns her, the truck gets a flat) and then she plays the injured party, making you feel like it's your fault.

I HATED THAT CRAP and thankfully bride stopped it when she saw that it was not going to work.

You have to prepare her beforehand for brother's reaction options. She must accept that HIS choice is a result, not of YOUR current action, but of HER prior choice. If she persists in trying to play out her melodrama, you must disengage (because otherwise she gets EXACTLY what she wants.)

...the proper way to break this news to him about the affair.

"Hey, bro, just wanted to tell you that sis used your pad as a brothel to bang another guy!" Let's assume that's the worst way to do it. There ain't going to be a great way.

Kgaa, you don't have any control over how her brother reacts to the news, so I wouldn't let that stop you. Telling him will help your recovery, it won't hurt it, regardless of his reaction. If I were him, I would be furious if my sibling used my home for such sleazy purposes. She is a big gurl and is fully capable of facing the consequences of her actions. Let her be a big gurl.

Kgaa, can you be more specific about why you think telling him would hurt your recovery? Part of recovery is making amends to others. It does not harm recovery, it is part of the process.

I understand and will be courtous in telling him to get the truth out. I think I was more concerned about the timing than anything...should of done it early on i think so as not to rehash the A, when brothef decides to talk with WW about A. I know Dr. H strongly suggests not bringing the A up in reccovery. I feel the biggest advantage to telling him is that my W will be able to move on as an honest person and not have a dark cloud over her head when it comes to their relationship. I Dont want anything chewing away at my W because of lies, i think that will only eat away apt her as a person as well as hurt our marriage. Ww never expressed not wanting her brother t know, just has not been done...

Kgaa, Dr Harley gives that advice to spouses; her brother is not her spouse. It's ok for her and her brother to discuss it. She owes him the truth as part of making amends.


Exactly. It will help her recovery in that regard.


It will not hurt her or your marriage. That might be a consequence of her actions. It helps her to face that. Facing consequences of our bad behavior makes us BETTER PEOPLE, not worse. Evading the consequences of our bad behavior reflects a person who is not sincere about changing. People who are sincere don't run from facing the consequences.

And you can discuss her brother's reaction to the news without dragging out the affair. I would view this as a positive exercise in her recovery, not a negative rehashing of the affair. Making amends is a positive exercise, rehashing the affair [with you] is a negative exercise.

Thanks..melodylane you have really helped out, as well as others....WW has commited to our MB books and fine tuning our EP...I have thought of getting the dvd's related to LB and HNHN just to keep us on track..we r following the wrkbook and workimg on chp 1-8 in LB...I still worry about recontact not so much by effort by WW but them crossing paths and OM engaging her. Feel mike I'm kinda in a "wait and see patern"....thanks again.....

You are right to be concerned about that because that is how many affairs are resumed. It is important to eliminate the opportunities for a chance meeting even if it involves moving. We have had marriages that were months into recovery end up in divorce over a chance meeting.

...recontact not so much by effort by WW but them crossing paths and OM engaging her.

That is always the primary fear as rebuilding starts. SHE owes you a series of plans for what she commits to do in response to coming into contact with scuzz-ball.

C1) He calls her on the phone. R1) She hangs up without speaking and immediately contacts you.

C2) She sees an e-mail from his ID. R2) She does not open it, but alerts you to it for your disposal, etc.

C3) They meet at a grocery store. R3) She walks out immediately, without checking out, and contacts you.

C4) She sees him laying in the street, a victim of a hit-and-run accident. R4) She resists the urge to run over him, calls 911 while driving away, then calls you.

Whatever you and she decide about each scenario, she must know that failure to act as prescribed is failure to adequately protect her husband, and leaves her open to unpleasant consequences.

Over and over, those sad stories here of drawn-out withdrawal, FR, re-starts, etc, etc, ad nauseum, are products of NOT totally defining the "stimulus/response" pairs that the BS thinks are implicit, and the WS fails to honor. Don't make that mistake, dude.

Wife and I have diacussed the relocation thing. I do beleive she is truly supportive if that's what I felt is best..I just sont know...sure Id rather uproot my family if it meant saving my marriage...but can I be successful here? W has assured me that reconnect should not be a concern...W says she is done and means it. W has put any Ep in place I have asked even gps app on phone. W is also says she understands my view about an unplanned "run in"..W says she'd ignore Om because she understands the danger as expalined by Dr. H...She also says since the poly she has commited to Rad honesty and would tell me of any such run in. VERY tough decision. I have applied to two jobs out of state but have heard nothing..I know i cant do anything wo that first....first

W has assured me that reconnect should not be a concern...W says she is done and means it...W is also says she understands my view about an unplanned "run in"..W says she'd ignore Om

Seriously, do you even consider these warnings? EVERY WW who performs a rapprochement with POSOM said everything your version just spouted. If she can get you to "believe" her without specifics, dude, then you will fully deserve the resumption of their contact when it occurs.

W has put any Ep in place I have asked even gps app on phone.

Okay, then she'll welcome the opportunity to develop those tactics with you that I discussed, right?

What scares me so much is that you actually believe this. What scares me is that you and your wife don't understand that EVERY CHANCE ENCOUNTER PUTS HER BACK TO DAY 1 OF RECOVERY. Every chance encounter will trigger her feelings for the OM. So even if she doesn't speak to him - which is very unlikely - her feelings will be triggered!

Your wife does not understand or comprehend the danger. And that is to be expected since she is foggy and probably still wants to see the OM. But what is your excuse?

Your wife HAS NOT put EPs in place if she has not eliminated chance encounters and doesn't comprehend the danger of contact with the OM.


If she understands the danger, she would make sure she was never in a position to HAVE TO "ignore" the OM!!

I am in shock that you would say this much less believe this. KGaa, you are as foggy as the most foggy wayward spouse. Of course your wife will tell you "she is done." Do you think if she wanted to resume her affair, she would be honest with you about it?

And the GPS on her phone should not serve to reassure you. ARe you kidding me? Even the dumbest wayward can get around that by leaving her phone at home or in her car and have the OM pick her up.

A favored wayward tactic is to give you the means to check up on her so you won't pursue UNKNOWN spy tactics that would actually catch her.

Any spy resource she knows about is USELESS. As long as she knows about it, she can find ways around it.

I get what i guys r saying and W already expressed she would contact me right away if anything from OM. W even wrote same in NC letter. I am talking about if she is at the local convienant atore and he walks in. Or if at the mall shopping and OM WALKS by...W cant live in a bubble and I cant always be thre..that is just notrealistic. I dont feel she has any problem with any requirments on how to respond. I just sont like the thought of it, being im a smaller city and them crossing paths. I dont want to get all over W for following the plan she has...shes done many things to show transparency and anything i ask..she is not balking at what i ask her to do as a rwsult of A....

Completely useless resource.

Ok guys....what should i do?????? Some eps r in place...any thoughts???? Sounds like i have to investigate her the rest of my life...I know i should not trust her and i told her i beleive only what i see...but, am i giving her a chance or not....im not foggy...i know she must prove herself, and maybe she does feel that she wants to be done with OM in her mind...i know better than beleive this until proven, but what next??? Give me a plan of action here....shes done all ive asked, unless we relocate tomorrow, what r my options to make it through this?

KG, these words could have come from my FWH. He was involved in an affair with a co-worker. As time went by, the affair was becoming more trouble than it was worth and he knew it had to stop.

Every morning he would steel his resolve and tell himself "Today I will not have anything to do with OW. I will not go to her area of the office building." Well, within two hours of being even knowing she was in the same building, his resolve would crumble, and off he'd go, looking for her.

Your WW may be ready to swear on her mother's grave that she is done with him. And - get this - when she says that, she is probably as sincere as a fogged-out wayward can get. Until that first chance sighting - until the first time the two of you hit a bump in recovery and she starts dredging up fond memories of her fantasy days.

My point to you is that the word of an addict is worthless. They are not their own best advocate. YOU will have to put rock-solid EPs in place. This means you need to eliminate any potential avenue of resumed contact with OM. If there is a chance at all that she will see him, she will be triggered. You have to remove that chance.

Well she does not work with him and prior to A they had not crossed paths for 20 years in this city...I understand about the EPs and she really hasnt really embarked on convincing me by her words that there is nver going to contact..she says that i will see and that she would tell me if any sighting or contact...she had a prwvious bf becore we married..they were serious and she ran into him and nothing was reignited. She says she understands the boundries she didnt have and i have to give her the chance to prove herself..the only other option is tlldivorce... at some point it is a chance your taking.......

You're missing a critical distinction I was trying to make, KG. My point was that you cannot trust the words of a wayward. THEY can't even trust their own words! YOU have to advocate for her and your marriage.

I don't care that they hadn't crossed paths for 20 years. The point is that they crossed paths - with disastrous consequences.

being honest about contact does not mitigate the damage from contact. If I am "honest" with my husband every time I take a drink, will that make me any more sober? No, it won't. Being honest will not stop her from being triggered and will not stop the affair from resuming.

ONLY NO CONTACT WILL ACHIEVE THAT.

You need to move, KGaa, if you really want to protect your marriage. Keep in mind that every sighting will put her back to day 1 of recovery and will likely result in a resumed affair. It is unrealistic to imagine you can recover your marriage that way.

If I go to the bar and get drunk but I am "honest" with my husband about it, will I be sober?

Does anyone have the answer to that?

Kgaa, your marriage has already been hit by an affair so it is not convincing when you try to sell us on the notion that your wife can be trusted. It only reflects a serious lack of understanding of the nature of affairs. Your wife has weak boundaries so you won't get far trying to tell us she can be trusted in high risk situations with former lovers.


Entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

How to Survive an Affair chapter in HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS
p. 177

...I have seen husbands build new and wonderful relationships with their wives but then go back to their lovers after five or six years of what appeared to be marital bliss. When I ask them why, they inevitably tell me they miss the woman terribly and still love her. At the same time they stoutly affirm they love their wives dearly and would not think of leaving them.

I believe a man like this has told the truth. He is hopelessly entangled and needs all the help possible to be kept away from his lover and stay faithful to his wife. I often recommend that a man once involved in an affair come in to see me every three to six months on an indefinite basis, just to talk about how things are going and to let me know how successfully he has stayed away from his lover. He must resign himself to a lifetime without her. HE MUST CERTAINLY NOT WORK WITH HIS FORMER LOVER AND SHOULD PROBABLY LIVE IN SOME OTHER CITY OR STATE. Even with those restrictions the desire for her company persists...

No, the other option is to do what Dr Harley recommends and what many, many others here have done: MOVE. You should not be taking chances.

You already have taken chances and you can see where that got you.

Ok..I dont trust her word BUT i am giving her thechance to prove herself and provide just compensation...

"Proving herself" misses the point entirely. You were hit by a car playing chicken and becoming a better chicken player is not the solution. The solution is to GET OUT OF THE ROAD. She failed before and she will fail again in the same environment.

YOU MUST CHANGE THE ENVIRONMENT THAT LED TO THE AFFAIR.

What you are doing is sending the alcoholic into the bar and saying "I am giving her a chance to prove herself." She is less likely "prove herself" though if she is in the bar. The solution is to get out of the bar; ie: change the environment and make sure she doesn't run into the OM again.

Living in a small town where it is easy for her to hook up with her lover reflects a lack of understanding of the nature of affairs.

If recovering your marriage is your goal, then not trusting her and giving her the chance to prove herself are things that need to be in place.

However, these things are not enough. You also need to remove any condition that led to the affair in the first place. That condition, in the case of your wife's affair, was a simple 'crossing of paths'. That's all it took. This condition remains as of today. This condition needs to be removed or that risk remains.

If you want her to pass that test, you should move. She can't "prove herself" if she lives in the same environment as the OM. Again, you must change the environment.

Two red flags I see:

1. Your wife hasn't posted in a couple of days.

2. When asked, she avoided the question about moving, twice.


AM

She hasnt posted because she said all has been answered and we now neex to work on recovery....she says she knows what her work is to do and she was never crazy about telling hef story to tje world and unknown people to hear harsh commenta in return. She says some things have helped but she would like to focus on the books and what dr. Harley says not some inknown people that look down on her..she says she feels bad enough about the A and doeant need salts in the wounds....

I am very concerned about your situation, kgaa, and so are the others here.

How far away does the OM live from you?

And do you have spy resources in place that your wife DOES NOT KNOW about?

No ther resources in place...i've run out of options..OM lives near center of town about 15 min away...she is aware of his house location and him hers....bad thing is that OM parents live about a mile south of us...When i brought this up to W she said the Om told her during A that he didnt see parents much...i have not seen him there much...our. ity is about 300k but small enough that you cross the same peoples path every now and again...please people..i do want to give W credit for trying the right things i've asked...she is a very stubborn perosn at times..she just has he mind set on trying to fix this and get us back. Besides what i've done and she agreed to do what else can i do?????? Shes giving me nothing to think or see anything different. Ru guys saying that unless we move our marriage will fail? NOBODY ever makes it in the same town as their lover? I guess if we come home to visit they could run into each other also? Right? Tell me what to do and request of her so i can geta grip on this....

I would most definitely move. And in the meantime, I would strongly urge that you put some spy resources in place that she doesn't know about so she can't circumvent them. Ones that she knows about will be of no effect.


And you wouldn't know it she did do something different, though. As long as she knows every spy resource you have, then you have no way of knowing what she is doing when you aren't looking.

Sooo. When she did something wrong as a child, did she stop talking to her mother when her mother said something she didn't want to hear?

I understand that we are strangers. But we are strangers who have SURVIVED THE SAME EVENT. She should be desperate to hear our thoughts. For her to run and hide concerns me. That tells me that she may not be as committed to recovery as you might think. That tells me that she may be thinking "Okay, I screwed up. Get over it already!" NOT GOOD. She's sweeping it under the rug.

I am exhausted. Without going into detail, I have run out of spy tactics....I do this kind of stuff in another arena for a living and beleive me I exhausted all those efforts catching the affair in the first place...I knew what I was doing and I still do...If I wanted to catch her from this point on, I surly could amd she knows it...I dont want to continue to have an "open case" on my wife. Its simple..I told her if she ever looks, speaks or references the OM again..I GONE, dont care why, where or how it all came about. I cant go on conducting a full fledged investiation on my wife..I did that to discover the A, and beleive me I went to great lengths. As far as the OM..cross my path, and I think he'd consider relocation. I feel like I am in a bad situation witha bunch of books on how to try and save my life as I knew it. No crap I cant trust her, got that point when I diacovered an affair. But what does giving her a chance mean. If ahe is really that in love as described here with the OM why on gods earth wouldnt the smart thing to do ia let them be together. W understands her screw up and does not resist anything i ask. So what ive gathered is tell W were moving and until I can find a job cross my fingers and hope that the two mad lovers dont see eachother at a red light or something.

Just consider that every time she drives by the OM's parents house she will be triggered. Every time she drives close to his house she will be triggered. The more triggers, the greater likelihood the affair resumes. She even realizes she will be running into him when she offered to be "honest" about it.

How does she feel about moving away?

I don't know what this means. Please explain this to me. Does this make you feel better? That OM doesn't see his OWN PARENTS much? Bull. She needs to lose this if she wants to save her marriage. Stubborn doesn't have a place in a healthy marriage. I'm not saying anything of the kind, and you know it. I'm saying that the conditions that facilitated YOUR wife's affair are still in place and need to be eliminated. No, that won't happen. Because you will be wise enough to know that your WW will not be out of your sight while you are visiting your relatives.

If that is what it takes for you to know what she is doing when you aren't around, then that is what it takes. However, one doesn't have to conduct a full fledged investigation to know what their spouse is doing at all times. I know what my husband all the time we are apart and it is effortless.


It doesn't mean that you continue to send the drunk into the bar and hope for the best. It means she changes the environment and STOPS going into the bar.

Dr Harley is REAL CLEAR on what it takes to recover a marriage, and one of the first steps is changing the environment that led to the affair. THAT MEANS MOVING AWAY FROM THE OM IF NEED BE, IN ORDER TO AVOID CONTACT:

You need to understand that you will need to snoop on your wife until you are at a point where you feel safe.

I had my husband wired for sound after his affair. If I could have tracked his thoughts I would have done so. I did what I needed to do to feel safe - 'trust' did not factor into my equation at that point.

As you go through recovery this need to feel safe becomes less as your spouse continues to show complete transparency. You aren't there yet.

Ok well I cant wire my wife for sound...answer this...my wife works at a job where several landline phones r at her disposal...how the hell do I keep tabs on that??? During the A she used a phone in a store as well as a friends cell phone to avoid my detection on her cell account??? This was as I was discovering Aand she knew I was on her trail...I used other measures but those always will remain impossible to track...heck for that matter if we move she could make phone contact in the same manner....you just cannot cover all basis.

You do not understand triggers.
The more she is triggered, the more likely the affair will resume.
The less she is triggered, the odds are more in your favor.

Triggers MUST be eliminated.

And, with OM living only 15 minutes away, she WILL BE TRIGGERED OFTEN.

I would focus ALL my energy on elminating those avenues, rather than spending all your energy on coming up with reasons why you CAN'T. If you spent the same energy on affair proofing your marriage that you spent today on defending the status quo, you would have the most affair proofed marriage on the forum!!

Can you focus your energy on finding ways to affair proof your marriage instead of creating excuses why you CAN'T?

I do understand triggers I am experiencing them daily here. Just as I am told it is what and how you react to them...the more and more I read I see relocation as the only option of hope...

Yes to melodylane...your suggestion besides what I have inplace

How about you do this, KG: leave the area. Get your snooping tools in place. Stay with us. Go from there. Okay?

As of last night I phoned W brother and told him of A...he was set back by the news but was rather supportive of wanting to see our marriage thrive feom this point. He said he would be making contact with W to speak with her about it. I had tried to contact him earlier in the day when W was working. He called back in my wives presence and I told him I would call him back. We contacted each other later. W found out I spoke with him and I told her I did as well. W became distant and upset...not because I told her brother of A, but because I was honest with her. W said that I knew I was talking to jer brother and I new my intention was to speak with about A and I failed to tell her even now that we are supposed to be 100% honest in all we do...W was very distant and upset with me last night and still is. I told her that her several times that herbeother should have been told early on. I also reminded her that the last several days she told me "go ahead and tell him". I'm confused. I am jusst trying to follow this plan the best I can and it just seems that I keep pissing off my W with no resolve. I thought the discussion with her brother went well and W will continue a decent relationshop with him...W is upset because I lied and could have been more honest about my intentions for the day.????

W became distant and upset...not because I told her brother of A, but because I was honest with her. W said that I knew I was talking to jer brother and I new my intention was to speak with about A and I failed to tell her even now that we are supposed to be 100% honest in all we do...W was very distant and upset with me last night and still is. I told her that her several times that her brother should have been told early on. I also reminded her that the last several days she told me "go ahead and tell him". I'm confused. I am jusst trying to follow this plan the best I can and it just seems that I keep pissing off my W with no resolve. I thought the discussion with her brother went well and W will continue a decent relationshop with him...W is upset because I lied and could have been more honest about my intentions for the day.????

Really? Only a GENIUS in the field of unproductive human behaviors could have predicted her snarky and spiteful reaction!

...the "Oh-woe-is-me" passive-aggressive crap...she plays the injured party, making you feel like it's your fault...If she persists in trying to play out her melodrama, you must disengage (because otherwise she gets EXACTLY what she wants.)

Dude, do you even READ what is posted for your supposed benefit?

Hey, the sun will rise in the East tomorrow...try not to be shocked!

And on another front:

I failed to tell her even now that we are supposed to be 100% honest in all we do.

Dude, the BS drives the exposure train...There ain't no POJA required or recommended.

She really has you wrapped up, doesn't she?

KGaa12,

Waywards excel at manipulating the conversation to make the BS feel guilty for some minor infraction. It is a gaslighting technique and diverts attention off the WS. Your wife scored in the conversation above. The attention was off her and onto you.

Since she evaded the question on her thread and won't post any more because she thinks the MB forum doesn't support her, can you tell us whether your W indicates she will move?

AM

W said she would move. We have discussed it several timesand the only queations that have come up r the typical ones about jobs, houses, area cor kids ect....she is ner ious about a move in general but i think when it comes down to it so am i....to answer the question, she has said several times she would.

W said she would move. We have discussed it several timesand the only queations that have come up r the typical ones about jobs, houses, area cor kids ect....she is ner ious about a move in general but i think when it comes down to it so am i....to answer the question, she has said several times she would.

Kgaa, that is great news. I would start brainstorming on a plan to make this happen.

KGaa12,

Perhaps a massive exposure of the OM would drive HIM from the area? All things considered it's better to get OM to retreat rather than yourself.

But I do understand the random nature of triggers, yesterday OM4's daughter saw my W yesterday and stopped for a chat, I guess OM4's D has no idea the ill will I hold towards her.

God Bless
Gamma

Even if OM moved, his parents would still be close.

AM

After all the back and forth posts, I'd like to say I DO appreciate the help here. Most of you know my entire situation and where we r at as of today. I know I will not be packed and moved in short order. Even if that is what we do, I know it will take atleast a few months. If I dont handle my marriage right from this point, it will be over before I would get out of town. W kissed me goodbye this morning we said we loved eachother and I was off to work. As stated before I know last night she was Po'd and even slept on the couch for a bit. W seems better now and will want to move on with recovery. What do I do? What do I not do? I am going to tell her more how I feel it is our best interest to move. I am also going to continue with the MB books with her and try to work toward that "romantic relationship" with her. I am keeping abreast of what she is doing and have various EP's in place to the best of my ability. IS THIS ALL I CAN BE DOING AS OF TODAY???? Thanks.

Kgaa, I agree it will take time to move. It might take 6 months to get everything in place. In the meantime, you are doing the right things. Work on the program like you are doing.

The one thing I would strongly suggest is getting some spy resources in place that she is not aware of. If she knows about it, that renders that resource completely useless. Go check out the Spy forum and see what you can find.

The next most important thing is to follow the policy of undivided attention and focus on getting in 15+ hours per week. That will get you the biggest bang for your buck the FASTEST.

Use the policy of joint agreement (POJA) to identify geographical locations and then start looking for jobs. Talk about and focus on how great the future will be.

In the meantime, monitor, monitor and monitor for any breaks in no contact.


AM

Here's an excellent show of the Harleys walking a couple through POJA on where to live.
Radio clip on POJA on Where to Live
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4

Be absolutely certain that the two of you are following Dr. Harley's Policy of Undivided Attention. Follow it to the letter and don't cut corners with this, because this is the heart of Dr. Harley's program.

Spend thirty hours a week together meeting the intimate emotional needs. (You can reduce this to fifteen when you both feel great about the relationship.) Those are these four needs: recreational companionship, intimate conversation, affection, and sexual fulfillment. Do this without any awake children present. Don't do it after eleven P.M. Give each other your undivided attention during this time; don't give your attention to television or any electronic devices. Make this the BEST time of your week.

Read the link that BrainHurts posted about the critical importance of undivided attention: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2325269#Post2325269

Read the material on this site and in the books about meeting the four intimate emotional needs. Focus on those needs, no matter what the two of you list as your top needs. They are all important for both of you, whether you know it or not. Focus especially on good intimate conversation. Often UA time consists of scheduling a recreational activity that's really a pretext to be together and have good intimate conversation. Make this enjoyable for both of you.

Listen to the radio show daily; it'll be a constant reminder. It's like having a session with Dr. Harley every day. My wife and I enjoy listening to the radio show together, and discussing it.

I am striving for the conversation and rec companionship time..does anyone have any great ideas for rc? This past weekend we rented a two person kayak and went out for an hour...we have had lunch togeghef several times..other than the out to eat thing, can anyone offer their insight

Have you looked at this?
Recreational Enjoyment Inventory

Prisca and I love exercising together. We have a gym membership together that we have absolutely loved.

W and I talked yesterday about relocation. W said she has says we have to move, we have to move. I think she upset that her A has caused so much turmoil and is the cause of now so many problems..Sold a car, going to sell a brand new home, going to uproot kids ect...she says if that is what needs done we're doing it. W and I spoke of EP and what they all entail...she says I dont know what else I can do but what I am...she says I never want to see or talk to OM again..She says she see's him as a negative object in her life...someone who has caused great damage and turmoil. W says she wants to work on us and so whatever she can to make me feel secure. Thats it. We spent time together going over our MB workbook breaking down eachothers EN....

Reading between the lines, do I detect POJA issues? You need to both get on board with enthusiastic solutions to these problems.
I had similar issues. My solution: Employ the technique of successive approximation. I bought a second house 500 miles from here. It will be our retirement home, and a refuge from my wife's affair fallout. Given housing prices and my circumstances, I was able to pull this off with the net cost per month actually being less than it was with just the one house. When we closed on the new house, my wife started spontaneously crying. Surprised, I asked why, and she said that now she was certain that I was going to keep her.
Look for solutions like this. Get inventive.She regards the OM as poison, and wants to help you heal.

As many of you know I have posted here regulary after my WW A. We are in recovery mode and after all the advise and recommendations I find myself struggling in certain areas of the A. I have worked harder to A proof my marriage.. yesterday after the advise from the board I wrote out questions to my WW outlining what her response would need to be if contact was ever made with OM..what I expected as EPs and direct questions like will you move, will you submit to yearly poly ect....Ww answered all as expected and had a problem with none. I really struggle with the intimant or physical part of the A. As many of u know this happended four times over a 4 months time frame. Most encounters were in a vehicle with one being at a family members house. I know all advice here is dont beleive the word of a WW..all things said thus far have either been verified by the poly or shown with concrete evidence. The details of the PA is a tough one though. WW when at the poly wanted to some how have a question be asked to assure me that when she told me the sex was bad from her view it could be verified. Ww said she felt as if she was giving the OM sex in return for his commitment to conversation and making her feel wanted and important. WW gave all details of PA, even things I probably should have left out, but how will I ever know if the sex they had was bad, good or even great? I dont want to just think wife is lieing about this, but the Om is not real attractive and i feel if she told me all the other gory details, why leave this to a lie? Ww has also requested to take an additional poly to verify her word on this so we can move on....are there any WW out there that could chime in to say that this, bad sex, can be the case on one side of the affair in order to gain something on the other side?

KGaa, do yourself and your wife a favor and stop discussing this. Once all the facts are out there, it should never be discussed again. Don't bring it up anymore.

Instead of focusing on how great the affair was, spend your time on making your marriage GREAT. Her affair can never compete with your marriage if you do that.

I do believe her, though, when she says it wasn't good sex. If it was, I would expect her to say nothing about that aspect.

Stop talkng about it, my friend. Talking about it keeps it top of mind for LONGER. I know you are thinking about it all the time, but you don't have to talk about it.

**EDIT**

He needs to drop the subject and focus on making his marriage GREAT. Obsessing about disgusting pig sex and how it stacks up is not productive. Pig sex can never compete on any level.

Ok...thank you...I feel I sometimes lean on tje support here because i told WW that I would do my part and not talk yo her about A again. I do think about it and it does hinder my sex life now with her....

The past is past. Let it lie dead. There is no residual quality to dead things once they've passed. The grandest general has no more impact on history than the humblest serf after they each breathe their last.

KG, try bounding the question by considering the extremes, and then projecting the impacts to your current situation.

Here's what I mean. Assume the SF between WW an OM was ridiculously inept and tragi/comical - dry on her part and flaccid (and brief) on his. Then project it to have been very intense and satisfying. (Seriously? In a vehicle? Okay, this might need a GREAT imagination!)

Now cut to today. I would aver that given that WW has realized the stupidity and cruelty of the act in and of itself, the parameters of the performance are not that important anymore. Whatever the quality (or ineptness) of their coupling, she rejects that as a terrible mistake, and wants to reconcile with you.

Ok..Understand to let it be the past....

Ok..Understand to let it be the past....

KGaa12,

Maybe this will help you, it helps me. I go irrational too on things, and it has been a problem for me for some time. I've talked with S. Harley on it too, and how I need to focus.

First, you don�t have to believe your wife ! I think you can look at this rationally, and conclude some things for yourself like I did.

First, you�re talking about a car and then a bed. Well I�m sure you and your wife have tried it in a car, �cause my wife and I have tried it too. Good? It got the job done, but my pants dropped on to my ankles, not able to move well, and my wife twisted and contorted in whatever way. Good? I never remembered it as such, how could it.

Next, and more importantly, I have looked at scientific studies regarding sex, and applied them to my situation. On this matter Dr. Harley states: "You probably began your marriage not knowing how to enjoy sex, and made love to your husband out of a spirit of generosity. You may not have known how to become sexually aroused or how to climax. But as long as you were in the state of intimacy, the experience was somewhat pleasant for you, because the sex act made you feel more emotionally connected to him." You may recall when you and your wife were first becoming intimate, you clearly were not as comfortable with her then as you are now, and vice verse I�m sure. Dr. Harley talks about this comfort level too. That comfort level developed over many many years. You do things now in the bathroom, bedroom, etc, that you would have never dreamed of doing when you were dating or first married. My gosh, I threw underwear away that had skid marks on them so my wife did not see them in the laundry !! As far as comfortable in the bed, that took time. My wife was my first, and at age 27 I was Lightening Jack, actual intercourse was over in a flash. As my comfort level grew, so did the time period. As for my wife, she did not orgasm for the first couple of years. However, as her comfort level increased, she now has a problem of not waking up the entire house and maybe the next door neighbors. That took years to get her there. The scientific studies also confirm this in men, and more particularly in women. You know that your comfort level in the bed with your wife is far better now than at the beginning. And it is supposed to be easier for us guys then girls. As for your wife, I venture to say that her comfort level in the bed with you is far greater now than when you were first married. Would it be too much to say that your sex with your wife got better over the course of the marriage? Granted, maybe SF frequency or something like that could have been better, but when the event occurred it was better later in marriage than earlier. Right? OK, now you take that feeling of yours and multiply it by a factor of something, because women are different in that regard than men. It takes them much longer to reach these comfort levels. They are generally much more concerned about looks, body, performance, what have you, and it takes them much longer to reach our comfort level. Let me give you another example of my wife and me. My wife used to refuse to have any lights on when we were getting intimate. Now, I can have all the lights on and even my reading glasses if I wanted. The studies confirm that sex between people, particularly married couples, with their added comfort gets better over time. Is your wife�s sex better with you then 4 x with somebody else? You can Google these various studies yourself and find out just as easily as I did. Certainly do not dwell on them, but they will confirm these things that I am telling you.

So do not believe your wife that the sex wasn�t good? You can confirm this from how it occurred, and also confirm it through the various studies regarding comfort with whom you are with. That happens only over time.

I hope this helps. I must actively draw myself from irrational thinking into rational thinking, and these types of logical exercises help me immensely.

PA occured in vehicle, x2 in daytime and WW said shirts stayed on. x1 occured at night (still in car). Last time was on floor, which was too confirmed on POLY. WW says OM was very quick and she actually said it was over to quick and never got anything from it. WW says things like "I just couldnt get into it, it was like high school sex". It's just hard for me to wrap my head around the fact of why do you keep going back to the same actions (PA) if your not benefiting from it? WW says, OM was and she wanted OM to continue talking with her. WW says she never felt as she does with me and that their was nothing initimant about it. WW says it was cheezy in the car, cheap sex.

You don't wrap your head around it. That's the point exactly. You now understand it. Why do people start taking heroin? I know you want to talk more about it, you want to hear and reaffirm her tell you things, you want to confirm things. You can get very twisted, very easily, if you try and wrap your head around it. It is a mental thing, and you have got to find your own way of coping. Everyone is different in that regard, and trust me it is much easier said than done. Start now or yesterday. I've fought demons/visions for almost 30 years, and much more gruesome than these matters. It is done.

Ok..(I) understand to let it be the past.... 12:02pm

It's just hard for me to wrap my head around the fact... 1:47pm

Dude, we need a little more retention than that!

Okay, I'm just giving you a hard time, but there is a point under my barbed comment.

With luck, and patience, I can probably train a macaw to say "Let it be the past," but at that level of possible training the bird won't be able to operate under that guidance, because it will always stay at "knowledge" in Bloom's taxonomy. You have to WORK to get through "comprehension" and reach "application" where this insight will benefit you, by FORCING YOURSELF, at the first flash of "But why...", to say, "STOP IT! That was THEN, and I have too much work to do dealing with the NOW!"

The comprehension exercise is to internalize how those self-pitying exercises will interfere with the job you and FWW have before you; how your black moods will affect her, and rebound to you (negatively) in UA moments wasted, RH discounted, and O&H shunted aside.

Every "How could she have been so......" distracts you from the remorseful FWW she is demonstrating today with the less worthy WW she had been in the past.

KGaa12, you gotta remember that affairs are additions. Right down to the brain-chemistry impact. People who are in affairs aren't trying to make rational cost-benefit decisions; they're trying to get their fix.

Your trying to make sense of how she felt then according to standards of how she feels (or ought to feel) now is, indeed, an exercise in trying to make sense of the senseless. If you ask a recovered (or perhaps better to say "recovering") crack addict or alcoholic whether they (to use your term) benefitted from their crack or their booze, they'll certainly tell you, with the clearmindedness that comes from hindsight, "Heck no!" But back then, they kept smoking rocks, or drinking, just the same. Not because it benefitted them, but because they were hooked & needing a fix. It ain't rational & it sure ain't noble, but that's how it was.

Your wife may have been hooked on OM's free attention, on the admiration he doled out, on intimate conversation that he shared with her -- whatever needs she was allowing him to meet. And when people develop opposite-sex relationships where they allow the other person to meet one or more intimate emotional needs, then sex tends to happen. (That's not just me making stuff up, it's what I understand Dr. Harley's experience has taught him, if I've been reading all this stuff right for the last 3 years.)

You've never thought about this, KGaa12? You've never cheated, I take it, right?; and so I'm sure it's not easy to understand. It wasn't easy to understand for me, either, after my affair was over & in the early weeks & months as I started coming to my senses; and I also had no idea how to reassure my wife that she wasn't inferior to the OW.

All I can offer is that it takes time, and with you guys being only a couple of months into recovery, it's still very early. You shouldn't expect to feel too reassured yet. She needs to continue to stick to her EPs and work on knowing & meeting your needs. You can ask her everything that happened with OM, under a polygraph, right down to all the gory details, but keep in mind that the purpose of that is to establish that she's giving you the facts you need to process the affair & ascertain whether she's being truthful compared with what makes sense & compared with any facts you've been able to verify independently of her. The purpose isn't to torment yourself with frame-by-frame knowldege of something that neither you nor she can ever undo, and doing so won't make sense of something so inherently senseless.

KGaa12,

From everything you wrote she did not enjoy it, especially as there was no physical attraction.

If my W told me what your W told you I would not be hunting down OM.

God Bless
Gamma

That doesn't completely apply to a remorseful wayward who is trying to recover their marriage. I am assuming that your wife is remorseful and is trying to recover her marriage. Believe what she tells you - verify anything that sounds flaky, because she may be trickle-truthing. She's just flagged you on two of her EN's - Conversation and Admiration. Make note of that. You're going to have to accept your WW's interpretation of that event. You weren't there. You weren't in her head at that moment. I suspect that it wasn't earth-shattering, it wasn't the best experience of her life, blah blah blah. I remember what my FWH told me about the sex act with his OW - it was cold and dreary. And as soon as it was over, reality blew in on his drive home to me and he knew - even in his foggiest state - that he had just done a hugely bad thing that he couldn't un-do. He was sick. It was an addiction.

Of course, that still didn't stop the addiction. Exposure at their workplace took care of that very nicely.

Yes. My H told me at one point that he took OW to lunch and that they kissed at a stop light on the way back to their office. I said "WHAT were you thinking??? Anyone could have seen you!" He looked at me and said "That's just it. I WASN'T THINKING."

Addicts don't think - they live in the moment.

KG, I can't remember if anyone has asked you this, but would your wife be willing to post here?

Gamma, your posts about this continue to amaze me! Do you not understand the nature of an affair?? It's all smoke and mirrors! It's all fantasy!! This business you have trotted out about orgasms, etc, is all a distraction from what needs to be done to recover their marriage. Do you have some sort of obsession about the more salient points of what is just a tawdry aspect of an addiction? Would you be equally curious about how many times a syringe was used between heroin users?

You are often spot-on in so many of your posts - I am not sure why you have this inquistiveness about the number of orgasms, etc, that have NOTHING - ZERO to do with an addiction.

maritalbliss,

His wife is whathappened76.

I appreciate everyone that continues to respond and help me move on in the right direction. WW and I have had good days over the past week...I have refrained from speaking about the A and focusing on meeting her EN and ensuring that EP are in place. I am working hard on researching relocation, and have applied to 2 positions and awaiting a hopeful response. My WW relationship with her oldest daughter is not good right now. D continues to be short with W and actually gives her dirty looks often. Ww has took the stance that she is willing to work on relationship when D feels she is ready. WW told D that she is sorry for the damaged she caused the family and asked D for a second chance....D just feels tha if W loved H she would not have cheated, period. WW did post here early on, was hit pretty hard about A, which I think brought some things to light, but W still feels that she would rather follow MB principles by ready books, doing wb, listening to radio archivies and videos...W just feels that she has agreed to do all that is needed in the MB programs, but that info can be found on the site and in the books and does not need to be broadcasted for all to give their opi ion of... I disagree in a sense, but I dont want to force the issue if she is doing all other things....I have even told here that the worse is probably over...the people on the posts will see that she(we) are headed in the right direction and it would be a encouragment more than anything at the stage...thanks again...

Have you thought about you and your WW going on the show and asking Dr. Harley about your DD17?

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com.

Do you just send an email explaining your situation with a contact phone number?

And to "gloveoil" reply and many of you have read in my posts, YES, I did cheat almost 15 years ago at the onset of our marriage and right before our marriage. It hurt my wife the same. My unfaithfulness were one night stands with no emotional connection or talk...after the one night, it was done and I felt ashamed and ill. That maybe some of my trouble now with my wives A. How can one go back, and 4 times at that? I wanted to all but disown myself from the OW when I cheated. I did listen to Dr. talk about a longer term affair where EN were being met to be harder to "kill" vs one night stand type. Thats what I fear, no contact ever and a dead affair.

Hi KGaa12. Just to be clear, I wasn't trying to bust your chops for your previous infidelity (I'd be the last person in line with any standing to do so). My point was about the addiction aspect of affairs. Maybe you didn't feel it in your case(s), but if you've read "Surviving An Affair," then you've read about how there is a wide range of levels of emotional connection. The implication of this is a very practical one for you & your wife, and that has to do with extraordinary precautions to ensure no more contact.

Midway through my own affair, before it had gone physical, I also felt a measure of revulsion at what I'd gotten mixed up in, and I knew it was no good. But I failed to take steps to cease contact. Kept seeing the OW at music rehearsals, kept taking her calls. You're right to view any potential contact as a major risk. It's what reignites affairs.

The good news, though, is that if you recognize this, you & your wife can take steps to prevent contact. Knowing every detail won't get you through this period & move you toward a better marriage. Once you know the basic facts of the affair, what will get you through is no contact. That will give the two of you breathing room as a couple, to attend to one another, without much less distraction & apprehension of the prospect of OM coming back into the picture.

Yes and if you include your contact info you can become a caller. They like it when both spouses are callers to get both perspectives.

They also want your mailing address so they can send you a complimentary book that will be appropriate to your situation. It is painless to be a caller, and it was helpful to my wife and I when we did it.

I'd like to say things are on the "up and up" but seem maybe on the downslide at times. Weekend was good for the most part, tried to make time together and traveled a short distance to grab lunch with the family away from our hometown. It just seems like a go good for awhile then thoughts of the A hit me and my mood changes. I try to understand the "why" and the "how" this all came about and how my wife actually did this to me. I feel like a fishbowl living where I am now with feeling like the OM could pop up at anytime or my WW is going to admit to me that they are once again talking. I think the biggest thing about the A is that when I first discovered it at the end of March 2012, my wife saw how devastated I was, sick over just knowing what I did at the time. Then WW provided me with all this assurance that I was everything to her and her and the OM were done....IT WAS ALL LIES! WW and OM met a last time in the beginning of May 2012, had a full blown PA and continued talking until all was finally disclosed July 8, 2012. This was one of things I verfied on the polygraph. (The last PA was at the beginning of May but they continued to speak via phone until full discovery on July 8, 2012) I know everyone is going to tell me that I need to quit thinking of the A BUT I just can't get past why my WW would return to OM after I found out she was in an A? WW saw how devastated I was just with the news I had then she continues to be with OM and have another PA? How is it any different now? Just becasue the A has been exposed and it is much harder for them to be together doesnt mean she doesnt wish she was, does it? When I ask WW she says she figured that because she already knew she had ruined her entire marriage and she had got nothing from the PA thus far, she figured she would have one last PA with OM and be done with him. I don't know...what the hell does a guy like me think? OK, I could deal much better with the fact she had an A, it was discovered by me, her husband, then the [censored] stops in its tracks. This issue is the cause of our fights and has all but caused us to divorce. Was she in love with this OM and just couldn't stand to be away from him. Was the sex good to where she had to have one last PA before she went back to her H? How does someone move on when it is so unclear why this reignited after discovery?

Ready for the big silver bullet answer to your questions?



Here it is:

There is NONE.

I asked myself these same questions over and over again my friend after my W�s 9mo A and 9 mo. FR. I know exactly how you feel. I can totally relate. It is gut wrenching at best. Absolute and complete Hell.

The only way I could even try (without much success) is to truly realize it was a SICK addiction. No better than a crack whore or drunk. Disgusting? Yes. Absolutely. Makes me want to vomit too.

Unfortunately for BS�s like you and me, this is our reality and what we have to live with. No way around it my friend.

Here is the silver lining; at 7mo�s into our R, memories of the A are starting to wane ever so slightly. Slightly yes but much better than not at all. Hang in there my friend. Try to keep your mind busy with whatever distracts you � pick your poison. Obsessing on the details is NORMAL but unhealthy at the same time.

MB�s works if you use it. Not easy but it does work.

Of course you wonder if they will hook up again! That is totally natural after what she did. However wondering if they will does NOT mean they will.

FWW knows that any breach to EP�s and we are DONE. Period. So, in the end it is totally on her, not me.

What are your boundaries? Set them and stick to them.

Remember, you can only control yourself. She is going to do what she wants to do. Hopefully, it is the right thing.

One additional quick note...there is NO getting 'around it' or 'over it' you MUST work 'through' it.

See the difference? This was a hard concept for me at first.

The attitude I took was after finding out about the FR, I was done and ready for D.

What I am now allowing HER to do is this: I am giving her a chance to prove HERSELF worthy of ME.

I showed her I had changed before dday and during our FR. She knows I am for real. Now it is up to her to prove to ME that she deserves the marriage and our life.

See the difference? Where will YOU draw the line in the sand?

I just can't get past why my WW would return to OM after I found out she was in an A? WW saw how devastated I was just with the news I had then she continues to be with OM and have another PA?

KG, I haven't done this recently (all right, not today, anyway), but:

You, of the dozens of bleeding BSs here, have the most insight, the firmest grasp, of the issues you raise as "unanswerable"

YES, I did cheat almost 15 years ago at the onset of our marriage and right before our marriage. It hurt my wife the same. My unfaithfulness were one night stands with no emotional connection or talk...after the one night, it was done and I felt ashamed and ill. That maybe some of my trouble now with my wives A. How can one go back, and 4 times at that? I wanted to all but disown myself from the OW when I cheated. I did listen to Dr. talk about a longer term affair where EN were being met to be harder to "kill" vs one night stand type.

So spend a whole spit-load less time with your bewildered betrayed-husband schtick, and a lot more time recalling the "rush", the "excitement" you got from your tawdry ONSs (actually EN-satisfactions that you were not adequately getting from your BW), and how her system more recently was craving similar satisfactions (if from likely different ENs) that your wife found it impossible to resist.

You could not refrain, knowing how it was destined to devastate your new bride, and she failed on her part, harming you, for the same reasons: unmet ENs alternately sourced because of crappy boundaries toward opposite-sex relationships.

There - BOOM! - is your answer. Now stop the distracting navel-gazing, and pity-party hosting, and get to work ensuring it never happens again, by EITHER of you.

(GOD! That felt gooooood!)

KGaa12, did you read my last post about addiction? What was your reaction to that?
Not what you wanted to hear, I assume?
What answer might've made you feel better?

Again, I'm not busting your chops, really. I'm just asking because your thought process right now may be important to figuring out what you should do next.

Why do you think you went back for multiple one-night stands? I mean, if you felt terrible about it, then why'd you do it more than once? Did you ever give your wife a satisfactory answer to that? Do you think there was a satisfactory answer?

Affairs are addictions. Addictions are senseless. Infidelity is senseless. Affairs are senseless.
There are explanations, but no excuses.
They're ALL senseless.

I'm NOT at all suggesting that two wrongs make a right, or that she deserves extra slack from you because you cheated on her many years ago. Nothing about your long-ago infidelity takes away from how bad hers was. Nothing excuses it. I just want to be sure you're not suggesting (intentionally or unintentionally) that one person's infidelity was worse than another's (as some of your posts seem to be starting to skate close to doing). If your words to her start sounding like you're saying the equivalent of "My poop doesn't stink & yours does" -- even if that's not what you intend to get across -- then that could be a factor (among others) impeding the progress of your recovery.

I just want sooo bad not to leave any stone unturned in the recovery process and fear the worst result being losing my wife, who I love very much. My WW and I have had a hard few months. WW knows what she did and the damage her affair caused everyone. For the first time tonight my WW admitted to the affair being an "addiction".WW even told me that when her and the OM were speaking that they both agreed how addictive eachother were in the affair. My wife remains consistant, saying it was the conversation and feeling of importance that was the source of her addiction. She even said that right up to the point of the NC letter being sent she still had her own doubts if she could refrain from conversing with the OM had she been approached by him. WW expresses how the door for the OM is now slamed shut. W says she looks at OM as a cause of problems and desctruction to me and family. WW says that after the NC letter was written and sent she felt as if it was OVER and understood the EP's and why they needed to be in place. Of course all of this scares the crap out of me! But at the same time it is also reassuring that my wife has basically admitted to her addiction, realizes that it was in fact that, and can better avoid it and is out of the "foggy" affair mindset. It is a bridge that I think was worth mentioning crossed.

I spoke with MB via phone today and went over all they had to offer including the coaching center. I am not sure what will benefit our marriage the most and where my money should be invested?...(5) sessions with S. Harley or the online program.

As most of you know we now have HSHN/LB/SAA and the workbook. We are working our way through this daily.

Out of all the pain the A caused, the biggest fear I have is my WW and the OM making contact sometime in the future. It is comforting to know my wife realizes the severity of what recontact can do, but at the same time I feel as if I am just waiting for the "recovering alcoholic" to drive past a bar and possibly pull in. This is why we are heeding the advice of relocation, but as you know that does not happen over night.

Again from the previous posts, I know my focus must be on not discussing the affair BUT working on my wife's EN and UA. I know my J.O.B. but in her case I have all the EP's I can put in place and know maybe know is just that time you say to yourself..If it is meant to be and we follow this program to the "T" it's all I can do to ensure a successful recovery.

If anyone could give their opinion to where to best invest my money...(1) Coaching Center (2) Online Program...I appreciate the support and insight....

We have recently completed 7 sessions w/ S. Harley in private coaching and it has been beneficial. We have more sessions to go. I think we will need another 3 sessions at least. We have not had the on line program, but it does cover more than what we have covered so far in private coaching. That being said, my W and I needed to be a little more focused on certain areas of our relationship and thinking, and the private coaching was able to focus more on that for us. If you do private coaching, I think you may need to consider more than 5 sessions, IMHO.

KGaa12, I was going to respond to one of your earlier posts too but had a hard time going back to a life altering event for me when I was a much younger man. What I will say is I believe the only reason I did not turn my keys in early back then, is being convinced that I was not alone. Google 'footprints in the sand' He carried me ...

Kgaa, my vote would be the online program, because you will be assigned a coach who will take you through the entire program. You will be assigned weekly lessons, tested regularly, until you get through the program. You will have daily access to Dr Harley on the private forum to help you through any minefields. I think the phone coaching is good when there are motivation problems, but in your case, you would get the greatest benefit from the online program.

I think it would also be a distraction from your grief and will help you achieve a happy marriage FASTER.

If you look around the forum, many of the happiest marriages came out of that program. I know it made an amazing difference in my own marriage.

It happened because your wife was being selfish and only cared about herself. That is the how and the why. It had nothing to do with you. It diidn't mean she loved you less. It meant that she loved herself MORE! Don't try to understand it, it doesn't matter. What matters is what she is doing NOW.


Is it possible to move to another state so that you have a fresh start and can put this fear to rest?


Again, it does you no good to beat yourself up and dwell on these details. Believe me I know! She was a selfish wayward who's only thoughts were about herself! Let it go and work on yor recovery in the now.

~RQ

Remember this??


PS I would recommend the phone coaching. Kiss and I coach with Steve Harley and it is worth its weight in gold.

I am kicking arounf the online program. WW and I r focusing on our UA and keeping track of it...I may ultimatley try to use the money for expenses related to relocation instead of the online program....not sure yet...by far my biggest worry is recontact...and at this point I beleive it would be unintentional but neverless would still be..W understands the EPs and has agreed to tell of any sightings, attempts ect...the thing with relocation is it wont happen all too quick...I have several applications in out west and as many of u know, the market and economy are tough. I am trying daily because I would love to quit living in fear...but doing all I can...it is very hard for me to not bring up the affair to my wife, but I refrain most of the time because I have been encouraged not to...I just feel at times that I need living proof that W did not want to replace me with this OM, and if W would "cave" to any future temptation from OM...W trys to tell me she is doing all she can...She is abiding by EPs, followed all steps MB suggested, is willing to move if that's is what needs done, has no problem when I question anything relaed to her whereabouts ect....I dont think I can ask anymore from her atp this point? Thanks for the support...

Kgaa, what has to happen next is that you have to create a marriage that is much better than what you had before. That is as critical to recovery as no contact with the OM. Otherwise you will end up in a very crippled version of the pre affair marriage. If you want to see what that looks like, go take a look at some of threads of those who are still nursing deep resentments years after the affair. That is what happens when the present is not happy.

This is one of the reasons I recommended getting into the online program. You have a willing spouse so all you need is sme good coaching to walk you step by step through the program. The phone counseling is more for reluctant spouses or marriage with bigger problems. I think you would greatly benefit from the online program.

Thank you for your input. I read the "Foggbabble" post and it does really bring into light and reality what a WS is feeling no matter how much one convinces themselves that it is some other mindset. I can say this about my cheating episodes (15) years ago. I am obviously totally in the reality mindset now days, but it took awhile to see things for what I was really doing and SHOULD HAVE been thinking. Do you think this would be beneficial to print and show to my WS. She has come around much much more than weeks ago and like I've stated has commited to working on recovery in our marriage. I don't want to pour salt in her wounds, but I thought maybe sometimes you need to see what kind of thinking you actually convinced yourself was ok during the A...

Personally, I wouldn't bother. She knows how to find her way around the site and will find it if she is serious about educating herself. Also, it might be too soon for her to recognize the craziness of her actions/words.

Its been about a week since I've posted. Since then I have REALLY been trying to focus on a new realtionship with my WW and focus on conversation and spending time together. We both work so I have fit it in when possible. I know as of today I am beginning to feel the damage that this type of incident has on someone. I have been on an emotional roller coaster and I feel as if I have just hit rock bottom. I have been reading as much as possible in the Harley books, whcih at times helps to see the reason for affairs and what I was lacking in our marriage. My WW has done nothing wrong since I've last posted. EP's are in place and if she has had any contact with the OM I sure do not know it. I have as many safe guards in place as I can, but I am a realist and know if there is a will there is a way. I just feel very depressed. I can't get the thoughts of the PA out of my mind and keep reverting back to how in the world could she actually do this to me over and over. I feel she had to know how much pain and disruption this would casue to a realtivly good life minus a marraige that just could have used some work. I know for a fact that I could NOT handle any further contact with the OM. WW says no, and I have no reason not to beleive that. We are working the MB program, but to be honest that helps in every aspect of building your marriage but not taking the severe pain away that the affair caused. Do I want her to leave? NO, I love the person she was before the affair. I'd miss her and feel I gave up on the person I love. I am completly confident that we could now build a great marriage with the knowledge we have now. I just FEAR a rekindle, a small lie about recontact, even thinking she still has the desire to speak with this person hurts. I just don't know when to admit to myself that the pain is to great to have that level of confidence I need to focus on us. She knows I hurt and I don't know that ther's anyting really she can do. She is doing what I ask. I know many of you say RELOCATE. WW is willing and has actually taken steps to get that ball rolling. The fact of the matter is, it won't happen soon enough and the OM is always a lingering threat in my daily life now. My goal is to keep trucking along, but it's so hard to be the husband I always shoudl of been and that my WW actually deserved all along with the brutal pain of the A.

What is she doing to get the ball running to relocate?

How much UA time are you getting?

Have you been to your doctor for some ADs?

Okay, go back and re-read your recent thread. Now when you once again feel like asking, "Is it REALLY that important that we relocate, with all the attendant confusion and complexity?", you'll be able to answer with, "Yes, so I'll never have to write such a note detailing my fears ever again."

Not being on MB at the time, I never isolated the worry about recontact until I realized its absence after the POSOM himself relocated with great finality.

Update..got to speak on MB radio and heed some advise from the Harley's..we still are aggressively looking at relocation and in the meantime making sure EP's are solid amd I conduct my checks and balances. My BIG bone of contension has been bringing up the A to my WW. I have done this almost daily..My thought process has just been stuck in the mind frame that my WW lied to me soooo much upon D the A, that I feel as if I must continue to search for answersand reasons surrounding the A itself. DR. Harley advised strongly against this and said it will not help accept to withdraw love unit from my wife. I agree and feel sometimes thats why I revert to posting here. My single biggest thing in moving on past my wifes A is that I discovered in at the end of March 2012...It was then semi e posed, had no knowledge of MB principles. A girlfriend of my wife found out and our kids knew something was "not right". My wife cried and saw me at my lowest points. My WW told and had me beleiving that it was an EA that almost turned physical.We talked and argued for about a month. I thought there was more, she lied, but said her and the OM were done speaking. I like a fool confronted the OM, who actually told me that he was sorry and he would refrain from any further contact. Life went on and in the back of my mind I knew there was more. Thats when I found MB and knew what I was dealing with. I looked further and further into the A and discovered the TRUTH of the entire A. The part that stuns me and makes me feel at times that"when will this truly end" is that after my initial discovery on March 2012 my WW met with the OM one final time and had a full blown PA....this has been confirmed by poly and I can confirm with some degree of certainty that there has been NC since full discovery in first week of July 2012. Nc letter was sent by WW, and Eps put into place. A was exposed much more than at end of March....Why do I feel like I am forcing my wice to reamin with me? She says she loves me, never "loved" the OM, but admitts to a feeling of addiction because of the " power" and sense of importance it brought her....WW said she really enjoyed the conversation she had qith O, but never once thought of leaving me and knows she could never be ina " real" relationship with this OM. I have been focusing on her EN but just sometimes feel like I am trapping my wife to be with me when she was gaining so much happiness from the OM. I know my W is doing all she can now to follow theses principles and abide by Ep...I just sometimes look at her and really beleive that this OM made her happy....any help and guidance?

You actually have the option to solve your problem...and have had it for months.

I'm going to give you three possible futures, and you have to pick one. You don't get to imaginatively create a fourth, and you don't get to try all three out and then select your favorite. Ready?

OPTION ONE

You and your wife stay together. She spends her time with you trying to repair the damage she did, and over time, inevitably, your LB$ grows due to her efforts, and slowly but steadily her affair no longer occupies the largest chunk of your mental/emotional operations. Think "When Harry Met Sally".

OPTION TWO

You bring up her infidelity and deceit whenever the mood moves you. Your snide comments and disdain eventually move her to a state of apathy and disconnection that approaches yours. Your wallow in your misery, and she in her guilt, so neither take any action to recover the union. Think "The Night of the Living Dead".

OPTION THREE

This one may develop from #2, or can be approached directly. One of you pulls the pin on the divorce grenade, because doing anything else simply requires too much effort and innovation, and risk the other may do so first. You have the pain endemic to #1, without the balm of the spouse's efforts. Total devastation and agony results. Think "Dr. Strangelove".

There is a complicating factor to this game, however. While all BSs have the option to enter any of the three cases, I did not address the fact that #1 requires POWER of the BS, over the behavior of the BS. I've not seen evidence you have that quality. If true, your #1 will without fail slide into #2.

Okay, dude - make your pick.

Spot on, and I believe this should be a notable post.

You have all these options, but as NeverGuessed so eloquently shows you, they are not compatible with one another. And apparently Dr. Harley has explained the same thing, too.

You don't have to do everything that you feel like doing. If you want to have a good marriage, you have to constrain yourself and not follow every whim that strikes you.

I suggest you come up with a plan for what you are going to do the next time you are tempted to bring up the affair. Plan something different to do in response. Take your wife for ice cream, or something.

What day were you on?


You're not trapping anybody. She's a big girl and nobody is going to "make" her stay with you.

As far as happiness from the OM, regardless of what she says, this is very simple, although probably painful to hear:

Yes, the OM brought her happiness. So would heroin. Make sense?

We were on Tuesday.

Here you go.
Radio clip of KGaa12's call
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4

Kgaa, the point of the program is to learn to make her happy in the same way. She fell in love with the OM because he met certain needs. That is how you create romantic love in your marriage. In order to create romantic love the FASTEST, you should spending 20+ hours of UA time per week meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs of conversation, affection, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment. When you do that religiously for a few weeks, you will find yourselves falling in love with each other again..

People fall in love with each other because of the way the other MAKES THEM FEEL. I don't think your wife completely understands this fact.

What did you think of Dr Harley's suggestion to stop talking about it and get on anti-depressants?

And this is why it is so dangerous to live in the same town. Every time your wife runs into the OM, those feelings of happiness will be triggered and the affair will likely be resumed. Everytime her feelings are triggered, she will be back to day 1 of recovery.

The fact that she doesn't understand this should scare you. Dr Harley tried to explain this to her and I don't think she GOT that. She doesn't understand how vulnerable she really is.

She doesn't understand how vulnerable she really is.

I listened to the segments twice. My opinion is more negative than yours, Mel.

I think she DOES understand how vulnerable she is. Listen for her tone when she confirms they will be relocating. Does that sound in any way the model of a woman about to start a new life with her spouse, removed from the temptation of POSOM?

Dude, you can't get out of there soon enough!

Well you guys have offcially scared the %$#@ out of me! My WW after hearing her weeks ago compared to now is talking MUCH more sensible and realistic about the entire affair. We are both trying to get the relocation thing rocketed ASAP, but we do have children to think about in reagards to income, jobs, housing and schools. We are looking in the SW part of the country. I saw one of the posters is from Utah? Any insight on a great area to live there? It scares me very much that it is the opinion of many here that my wife is not getting it and in a blink of an eye this whole thing can be rekindled. Does it make any sense that early on in our relationship when we were together (when I cheated and we separated) she began a relationship with another guy. Completly understandable, but anyway, we ended up back together and our marraige moved onward. This guy and my wife for that matter had what I would say was a good relationship. My wife said that she beleived this man was in love with her and she had "feelings" for him. Long story short, her and I reunited and moved on. My wife ran into this man, who is now married, a few years back. He did his best to avoid her as he was uncomfortable seeing her. They crossed paths and spoke briefly. NOTHING to her credit was rekindled and they both just went their separate ways. Also when I had cheated in the past, it was a "one night stand" with a woman who worked in the same building as me. I didn't want anything to do with this woman after the PA. My point is that we continued to work together, I avoided her as much as feasibly possible and nothing ever rekindled. It was over and we both knew it. I understand fully that in both of these past scenerios it was NOT the BEST way to handle them nor shoudl my wife or I expect to handle the current affair of hers in this manner. BUT I try to give her a little credit in the fact that she admits to the addiction of what the situation of the affair was doing for her. Also that she admits to the need of EP's and has agreed to follow them. She has agreed to move and is doing things to make it happen (i.e. job apps, house hunting ect...)She won't go anywhere without me, even the grocery store and if I can't she makes it a point to take one of our children. I just don't want to lose faith that she was in LOVE with this man. He made her feel important, showed her attention so oon and so on, BUT she knows that this is not a man she would want to be her husband or even ina serious realtionship with. There are many things that he did and said that offended her but she admits to liking the attention that she was not getting in her home and from me.

Kgaaa, I am so glad we scared the hell out of you. It concerns me terribly that your wife does not comprehend the risk and that you are trotting out these examples as reasons that it is OK for her to run into the OM. Willpower did not stop her in the past and it wont stop her in the future.

If you put a recovering alcoholic in the bar and put a beer in front of him, how long will he be able to hold out?

And if he sits there sitting staring at the beer and smelling the booze,what will be the ONLY thing he thinks about? Since he is tRiggered now, I assure you the only thing he will be thinking about is taking a drink. Every time your wife even SEES the OM, she will be triggered and will be put back to day 1 of recovery.

Please stop making excuses about why it's ok to be there close to the OM and accept that your marriage is in danger. Don't play around with this, my friend. Please be scared...very scared.

" I just don't want to lose faith that she was in LOVE with this man. He made her feel important, showed her attention so oon and so on, BUT she knows that this is not a man she would want to be her husband or even ina serious realtionship with. There are many things that he did and said that offended her but she admits to liking the attention that she was not getting in her home and from me."

The feelings your wife described on the radio are the definition of "in love." she was "in love" with the way he made her feel. That is the exact definition of "in love." we fall in love with people according to how well they meet our needs and make us feel.

Affair partners are typically people that would not make for good spouses; that is the rule, not the exception. That is WHY she is addicted and why you should move.

I'm not entirely sure what you are saying, but the Love Bank explains what happens in an affair. Yes, it is absolutely true that there is no future with this man, whether she was in love with him or not.

Don't obsess over how she felt in the affair. Everybody in an affair feels the feeling of romantic love -- for a person who is incredibly dangerous and ruinous for them! Don't obsess over that fact, follow the plan, because if the two of you follow the plan, your feelings will follow your actions.

Quit coming back to the point of how she felt during the affair.

Exactly! This is all in the Basic Concepts, and it doesn't need to be slogged through over and over, Kgaa. It doesn't change anything. Go back to NeverGuessed's post. Do you want to recover, or not? If you want to recover, then get busy. Don't become someone who blogs on this forum for years and still wonders a decade later what his wife felt in the affair.

She loved him, because he made enough Love Bank deposits to pass the romantic love threshold and trigger the feeling of romantic love. That's how your garden variety affair works. If you follow the rules for long enough, you eventually pass this threshold and feel the feeling. Every time. It's scientific, not magic. And every day in this world, people who don't even know what the Marriage Builders rules are manage to follow those rules accidentally with people who are married to someone else. Then they trigger that feeling of romantic love, and their hormones tell them that they were made for each other, etc.

People who feel the feeling of romantic love actually have this going on in their brains. You can do an MRI on their brain and show them a picture of the person they love and a region of their brain lights up on the MRI. This can happen in marriage, or outside of marriage.

That is why she must never even take the risk of seeing this person again, and you guys must follow the plan so that you feel this feeling for each other.


Yes, affair partners are typically selfish and do not do what it takes to sustain the feeling of romantic love long term. Likewise for addicts, etc. Eventually their selfishness ruins the life of the person in love with them, and the love bank withdrawals catch up. Then you are left withOUT the feeling of romantic love, and without a decent life, as well.

First off, I NEVER once thought it was OK for my wife to even see this OM from a distance. I also discussed this with my wife several times and she understands how "powerful" the affair made her feel in the area of attention and conversation. She tells me that she knows how strong this was in THAT sense and that she wants to avoid the OM at all costs and understands that even listening to his voice on the phone is bad news and a risk to us.

My wife DOES NOT deny the good feelings that the OM's attention and conversation produced, but also defines "love" as the deep care and want of wishing to spend a lifetime with that person, wanting to have that person (OM) take the place of me permently. Wife repeativley states "I want you to be the one in my life that meets ALL my needs, NOT him. She say's she knows what type of guy he is and see's that. YES it did feel good to have those needs met but it is NOT him that I want doing it.

I want to state again, I have went to extreme measures to ensure daily that they are not in contact, and will continue. My wife is afraid to leave the house so as to NOT give me the wrong idea or even make my mind wonder about this.

I don't know what else I can do. She is doing EVERYTHING that the posters have suggested as well as MB. She was actually excited to get a call from a prospective job out of state today.

I remember being told early on when posting that I should watch the actions of my WW, not her words.

Well:

NC written and sent = YES
Exposed = YES
POLY = YES
EP's with No complaints = YES
Reading MB material together = YES
UA = YES
WILLING TO MOVE and working for it = YES

Sooo.... if she is still contacting or wishing to contact the OM and wants nothing to do with me and our marriage, she has fooled MB, Dr. Harley, my kids, the family and everyone else.

I appreciate all the insight here, I do, but my WW and I are doing our very best to follow all MB principles to the "T". What have we NOT done???? Must she admit that she IS in love with this OM as we speak? She admits to positive feeling being produced as a result of him and what he did to create those. She is requesting that of me, as her husband that she wishes to be in love with.

If all those waywards out there were or are actually IN TRUE LOVE with the AP,maybe they should consider being with that person for a lifetime instead? Who wants to destroy TRUE, COMMITED LOVE? YES the "feeling" of love without a doubt can be generated, but I beleive that one, male or female, can see the writing on the wall at some point and say....this was a mistake, a fantasy and something that I'd much rather forget about than cherish and keep feeding.

YES realizing one's vunerablility is of UTMOST importance, I agree. Following the EP's is key, but give us a chance to do something right here.

I cheated (15) years ago, must of got good feeling prior to having the PA with this OW and I never wanted to marry her. I actually cheated twice, WHY, becasue I DID NOT put any EP's in place. I allowed myself to speak with other women outside the presence of my wife and YES it happended again.

Our relocation will accomplish (2) things.

1. A better sense of security to get OM out of life for good. EP on steroids.
2. A fresh start, with NO triggers in area for either one of us.

Don't discuss the definition of love with your wife. Don't quiz your wife about her feelings during the affair. Your marriage can recover regardless of what her feelings were or what each of you chooses to call those feelings, but YOUR MARRIAGE CANNOT RECOVER FROM CONTINUING THESE KINDS OF DISCUSSIONS.

If you want a good definition of love, take a look at Dr. Harley's Love Bank Inventory. He has an actual test to test for the feelings of romantic love. I'm sure BrainHurts can find you a good radio show where he discusses the test.


Don't put your wife through saying this any more. Neither one of you should be bringing up the other man.

Kgaaa, I am not going to argue this to death but I want you to understand that your wife is "in love" with the OM. What you describe is caring love which is very different from romantic love. It does not need to be discussed endlessly. Simply accept it and don't bring it up again like Marcos said.

And yes, I know your wife is doing all the right things and I think that is great. So why the need to trot out examples of contacts with former OW/OM as if to reassure yourself that she won't resume the affair in the future? As long as contact is possible, it is very possible - and very probable - that the affair would resume.

Even Dr Harley is not fooled about the risks of her affair resuming as long as they are in close proximity. This is WHY HE TELLS PEOPLE TO MOVE. Dr Harley did not tell you the affair would not resume and I distinctly remember him saying "good"when you told him you were moving. Telling yourself she won't do it because she has special willpower means you don't understand what you are dealing with. All of the EPs in the world cannot compensate for accidental sightings and triggers brought by place association.

And once again, STOP bringing up her feelings for the OM. We all know how she feels, it is no different from any other affair.

Moved.

Kgaa, you need to move, regardless of whether your wife "gets it" or "doesn't get it." So having a discussion about that subject is fruitless.

I will assume then that many if not ALL of the posters here that are WS spouses must have relocated or there was recontact and false recovery during there process after the affair was discovered. I am with you all...I fully understand the danger, especially unplanned sightings...I also know that I've read much on love bank withdrawals and deposits. Ok, this OM made enough to fool my wife into this fantasy relationship. Also I've done my fare share of making withdrawals since discovering this mess....BUT the OM has made huge withdrawals by the damage he has caused this family, and this is the admitted view of my WW now. Yea if they made the effort to spend some time together and speak on good terms, sure love deposits would commence. I will be working on making my desposits whenever possible to my wife and as long as I can help it the OM won't have that opportunity ever again. Again I get the point here and the danger" but I also dated a girl in high school who I had a "romantic relationship" with and if I saw her or spoke with her and had my barriers set as always I sure wouldn't start to feel in love again. I understand this is to fresh to risk even the slightest contact, but she is still in love with him? High on the situation when fully involved...Yes.. Dreams about him every night, not sure on that one.....either way we are heading the advice here and making the right moves....

2 serious job prospects far away from here that my WW initiated. May get the final word within the week. These things do take some time and I think the advice and support I reach for is how to hold it all together until we R in the airplane moving. In the weeks and months ahead I have to keep things secure and moving in the right direction or all of this will be for not. Thanks.....

Didn't Dr. Harley also advize you to move?

This forum is chock full of affairs that began this way. Most said it wouldn't happen to them too. The fact that you don't understand this danger and believe you are immune is scary and it makes you more vulnerable to an affair.

Did you listen to the phone call between yourself and Dr Harley? He told you that those who believe they would never do that are the MOST vulnerable.

If you believe the risks, then why continue to bring up these anecdotes that demonstrate nothing other than a false sense of immunity? How many times does your marriage have to be hit by a train for you to get it?

I have no idea what you are trying to persuade us to believe here, no idea what you are trying to say. Why are you trying to convince us of something?

Did you come here to learn something or to tell us something.

It sounds like there's some piece of the advice you want to skip or think doesn't apply to your situation, but I have no idea what it is, because I don't understand what you are saying.

Are you trying to tell us that moving is not urgent?

I am confused too, KGaa. You say you GET the advice and are following it, but that is always followed by a BUT....

..that is some kind of anecdote telling us you and your wife have beaten the odds and maintained contact with old affair partners or that you believe you CAN maintain contact with old lovers because you are immune to an affair.

You are the chicken player who stands before us bleeding to death [from being hit by a car] who claims he is a good chicken player.

You and your wife have BOTH had affairs, so it is astonishing that you would come up with these anecdotes that seem intended to prove you are immune. You have proven you are not immune. Just because you might have played chicken numerous times and only got hit 2 or 3 times, does not mean you are a good chicken player.

IT just means you should get your [censored] out of the road.

Very well put and I in no way saying me or we can play chicken or risk our behaviors. My point if there was one is that as I sit her tonight looking for homes on the other side of the country I NOW must continue to live in the environment that the affair took place. Yes EPs are in place and we r understanding what in each of our behaviors caused the bad events in our marriage. We will keep focused on each other and maintaining a marriage thatbisnas affairnproof as it can be until we are moved. And by the way once moved will also continue to live by these principles because I sure affairs can happen anywhere if you allow them.....thanks again....

I actually wrote a reply to this post as well, but then clicked out of it because I thought I might be missing something. Markos, your post was pretty what I wrote.

KGaa, I listened to your convo with Dr. Harley as well, and it really does seem you are trying to pick apart every little detail of the PROVEN process here. Why? What is so difficult to understand?

No, not everyone can relocate when this happens, but if you can it will improve your chances at recovery. Why question and fight it if you are in position to do so?

You made a point of bringing up the possibility of talking to an ex-girlfriend, and your boundaries preventing you from doing the wrong thing in case it does happen. Not sure where that came from, but you said it. Dr. H made it quite clear to you that you should never have contact with a former lover when you are married. Again, why are you continuing to fight a proven method of marital recovery?

Seems to me you're expending more energy fighting the people (and the methods) that YOU have reached out to for help when that energy could be much better used on fixing you and your marriage.

Perfect! {{{{{{{{{{{{{KGAA]}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Salt Lake area is very nice.

Texas is EXTREMELY NICE!! EXTREMELY!!

Yes it is!!! Been applying for jobs in Austin.

Aren't you in Oklahoma now?

This is faulty logic, Kaa. First: OM didn't 'fool' your wife into squat. She CHOSE to enter in to an adulterous affair. If anyone was fooling anyone, they were fooling each other. Gee. How romantic. What has your wife said about this?

Just for a visit!

we are about 8 weeks into recovery and things are improving. WW and I have followed ALL steps according to MB with one of the last, relocating, in the aggressive works. My wife has continued with the EPs and continues to make every effort to remain transparent. Some days are tough, for both, she always faces the pain and humiliation of what the fallout of her A. We r still fine tuning our UA time but I have committed to learning what makes her "tick" as far as ENs. So has she. I have read some of the recontact stories on the Recovery forum and they do make one feel hopeless at times. I agree the best protection is good Eps with verification and examining you marriage to met EN. I want this to workout for the long term and sometimes it's very hard to see that some do fall off the wagon when least expected. I tell my wife I give her this one opportunity for our marriage to be what it always wasn't. If she values that and reignites that love for me then it should remain affair proof on both ends.

Kgaaa, those who fell off the wagon were NOT unexpected. We predicted it would happen. Go read the hundreds of us who have not had repeat affairs because we followed the program. Do you see now why we are so adamant about sticki g to the program?

Taking things day by day with alot of our time being invested in our efforts to relocate. When it is put out there that you must stick to "the program" what is that defined as? Are the most successful recoverys from reading Harley's 3 main books and following MB principles? Or is it the online program that has worked in the most successful recoverys? I know that I have been doing alot of reading and my wife and I both know that we should be spending morw time reading our books and doing the workbook. I feel as if I have gained so much of the basic principles from reading SAA and researching this site that we are able to put this plan into action. It just feels to me that I would like a much more structured way to see our progress than grabbing a book and reading when we can. The triggers in this area r a battle each day, but the knowledge that it someday will be a thing of the past is comforting.

Working day to day focusing on how to meet each other needs. Spending time together and keeping tabs on EPs. As I've re-read my previous posts and replies and as we get closer to relocating our family to another state, I still get hung up daily in my mind that if my wife is STILL in love with this OM, how could she even fall back into love with me. My wives and I relationship seems good as ever post affair, unless I have brought up the A or I get angry over the events. This has ceased for the most part and we really are calmly going through each day and focusing more on our future and how to rebuild our family and marriage for the best. Like I've stated, I constantly get hung up on the part of people saying she is in love with this OM. I completely get that those feelings were triggered in the A and that that risk always is present for past "lovers"...how is a BS supposed to have hope that there wives heart and feelings return 100 percent to there H if feeling remain for OM? If her love bank overflows withbme as we work through this how could anyone still have feeling for the other person. Just confusing to me.

Her feelings for the OM will fade as long as she is not triggered by his presence and as long as she falls back in love with you. You are doing the right things to make that happen.

When I say follow the program, we mean to go through and methodically implement each and every one of the Basic Concepts, ESPECIALLY the 20+ hours of UA time. It doesn't work without that step.

Just putting this out there for some advise. This evening my WW and I went to visit my parents to officially tell them that we were relocating out of state. They new about my wives affair when it was exposed, but we had not officially informaed them that relocating was in the cards. They are the closest to our children and have done much for the family over the years.

I read on here over and over how some couples do relocate and some do not. Success stories in both situations. I am on board to relocate as is my wife. We see the upside to the move and know how it can aid in the success of the marriage.

I am also seeing the downside to it with the stress it places on the family, the kids, and ultimatley the marriage itself. I am in NO way saying that the best solution is to relocate after such an event, but, yes I know my famous "but", how have families or BS or WW managed to live through there live if relocation is NOT an option.

I know EP's must be firm and in place, you must control triggers and so on. Can anyone explain the life they had to lead while staying in the same location?

Also how is it best to tell family, friends, co-workers, ect... about the reason for the move. I have exposed the A to all people recomended which included, close family, friends that will support marriage, OMW ect...BUT what do you tell neighbors, distant friends, kids friends ect??? I don't feel that the A should truly be exposed to those not intended but ALL will soon see that you are relocating.. Home for sale sign in yard, co-workers asking why the relocation ect.

My thought was to tell those that we would not normally expose A to was that we were relocating for personal and work related reasons.

Moving is stressful enough without of having to come up with a story for everyone as to why. Again thanks for the input. Also my immididate families thoughts was that we (wife and I) were moving to fast with the relocation idea. They asked her to just stay away from the OM and for us to focus on us and the kids. WW agreed that she would but the triggers and thoughts that were affecting me was what was important and we needed the "fresh" start for the health of our marriage and family.

I am not familiar with these success stories where the affairees lived in a small town and did not move. Can you show me where these are? Rather, I know of so many where the affair started up again because the WS was in a state of perpetual withdrawal.


Here is one such story where relocating was "not an option." The affair did not end,[off and on again for years] the couple is getting divorced and their son is being treated for severe depression.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2716
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2717
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2718

But if you know of a way that a marriage can recover while living close to the OP, I would like to know about it because I have no idea how it is done.


The downside of staying is a) resumed affair, b) divorce, c) your children's family is destroyed.

The downside of MOVING is short term stress.

Moving will not be a downside to your marriage, though. It will be all UPSIDE.

I agree with this. The news does not need to be spread around.



And if she is honest, she will admit that SHE is triggered too. That is the biggest problem. But, you need to move SOON, not later. I think that is so wonderful that you are getting advice from your family, but they have no idea how to save marriages and don't understand the risk that living there presents to your marriage.

You are NOT "moving too fast" because obviously, the faster you are removed from the risk, the sooner your marriage will recover and be safe from the triggers. Even moving into another home will help your marriage immensely. Your new home won't be a reminder of the horrendous pain you have suffered from her affair.

Do the people you exposed your WW's affair to also know about your past affairs? Your children, parents, etc?


Also, did you and your wife heal from your affairs or did the affairs just stop and ya'll moved forward in your marriage?

I ask because of a similar situtation.

Here's the show ot KGaa12 and his wife and the Harleys ask him about his past affair.

Radio clip
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4

BrainHurts - the champion of the "3 Minute File"!

some days I'm a lot slower!!

Thank you!

I was able to listen to it...first time my computer would cooperate!

I heard that the older dd knows about his affairs but do the others, parents, etc?

Good questions. Have you read his WW's thread? I think she discussed some of it, if I remember correctly.
whathappened76's thread

I did not see the answer on her thread but I could have missed it.

To date most of our discussions have been centered around relocating to another state. ww is MUCH closer to obtaining a job offer but I am kinda at a stand still. I am starting to feel the great preasures og the damage the A caused me along with the stress of trying to relocate and afford my family and kids the same life we have here. I hate admitting the fact that all we have accomplished here...new home, good careers, close to family all has to be changed because of this event.

I sometimes start to beleive we can make it here, but know I would ultimatley feel a better sense of " peace" elsewhere. The OM does not live right in our backyard nor does he work with my WW. Actually he is known to leave the area frequently for business.

My wife IS doing what she must in the meantime to meet the EP's here. She doesnt hardly go anywhere alone and her life is an open book with constant check in's and transparentcy to leave no question with things.

I do my homework to double check and ensure all is in line. We are spending as much ua time as possible when demands of kids and work don 't interfere.

The relocating thing is much harder than anticipated and I must admit I do start leaning toward making an affair proof marriage and remaining put.

I know posters as well as Dr. H recommend a move, but is a good affair proofed marriage and constantly enforced EPs a good second route?

WW admits that she can not see or engage this OM forever. I told her she DID before and her attitide has changed saying...I had no boundrie, I was not feeling good inside and I mad the decision to engage it this terrible decision. ww says she now has boundries is devasted by her poor decision and see's all the damage it has caused.

WW is all for relocating, but feels she is prepared to show "just compensation" in either enviroment. She says she is focused on me and her kidsand looks at OM as the cause of all this turmoil and ill feelings.

What is the likelihood of her running into him?

Because no amount of boundaries will help if she sees him again because her addiction will be triggered. That is how affairs start up again.

In the area in which live you can not see someone for years on end or you can pass buy the same person twice in the same week. I agree and so does she that if she would chose to see or even speak in conversation with the OM the risk exsists to reignite the A. WW says her boundries would not allow her to engage him or anyone else because she is aware of what could transpire. Yes a different locationwould prohibit this but altogether....but you may not also see this OM for 20 years.

There are few totally safe environments we inhabit. And even if we could bound the dangers and exclude them, there is little chance the sacrifices that would have to be made would make the decision supportable.

Ex: Let's say it were proved that no aircraft had ever crashed within its first 100 flights. The gutless, mindless politicians, on getting this data, would therefore decree that every plane must be retired after that milestone. The purchase price of the jet would have to be amortized over the ticket prices for those 100 passenger loads, jacking the prices up into the many-thousands of $.

"But we made you 100% safe on your airtravel," they'd put in their campaign literature.

"Yeah, but now we cannot afford ANY airtravel," would be the answer.

So too with moving/changing jobs, etc. Yes they might guarantee 100% surety against affair rekindling, but stern and unwavering controls and guards against that eventuality, properly monitored and maintained, may yield a 99% surety figure. So in effect the question becomes is the total displacement of a family, with attendant economic hardship, worth the final 1%?

Dr H is well-grounded enough to be wary of making any statement about "mandatory" job or venue changes, especially when the economic impact affects children.

KG you came here railing against your trigger caused by your remaining in place. We responded to you. Now that the bill is coming due, what are your thoughts?

(Disclaimer: I never mandated wife leave her job, and until last year OMW continued to work at the same school, never knowing the true story of her - now deceased - husband's EA with my bride. Moving was never an option to me. I own property here and have a second career based on officiating sports in this area, where I am known and respected. FWW just had to hope that the triggers in my case never got to a critical mass. If they had, it would have been divorce before relocation. Of course I had no MB guidance at the time.)

BUT....you already know she can't be trusted under certain conditions, so "boundaries" are meaningless when faced with an addiction. When faced with an addiction, "boundaries" go out the window.

I don't think you are getting this part, which scares me.

He is well grounded enough to be "ADAMANT" that one move if there is a chance of contact. Kgaa lives in a small community and the OM's parents live very close to him. So, a chance meeting is much, much more than "1%." It is very likely it will happen.

But I think if there were even a "1%" chance that I would get hit by a car again, I believe I might get my [censored] out of the road, don't you?


A better comparison is to consider the economic impact of a continued affair followed by a divorce.

here

The problem with Kgaa is that he does not understand the nature of his wife's addiction. Look at how he is under the illusion that her "boundaries" are a protection against an addiction. That is like me, a recovering alcoholic, going to the bar and claiming my good "boundaries" will protect me. That perspective indicates a complete and utter lack of understanding of the power of addictions.

Here is the bottom line, Kgaa, and then I am not posting on this thread anymore because there is nothing more I can say. It is your marriage to lose, not mine. I can safely say that you have been warned and if you choose to ignore that advice it won't be my fault if her affair resumes.

You are perfectly free to ignore the advice being given here because it is you who will pay the price. Good luck to you.

You needn't yell at me, Mel.

You said the following, just to point out the indefensibility of your position:

if there were even a "1%" chance that I would get hit by a car again, I believe I might get my [censored] out of the road,

But you don't, do you? You walk across streets (in Texas, even!), and you climb into your own vehicle and drive on Interstate highways, at speeds which could easily prove fatal in an accident. You make the same rational judgments that we all do about risk/reward balances in every facet of living.

KG may or may not choose to move. The risks of affair rekindling would be higher if he stays. The risks of income reduction and displacement would be higher if he moves. I'm not him, and I do not know his employable skill-set or education resume. I would offer that it seems the risks associated with staying are more manageable and "hedgeable" than the risks associated with moving to an uncertain employment environment. (He has no way to "employ" himself, whereas his efforts to construct barriers and protection in situ are more under his control.)

Personally, I hope he moves. If he stays, however, he's going to need our ongoing support to assist his wall-building. I'll be here, if needed, to pass him a brick.

You pays your money, places your bets, and the wheel spins. No one can guarantee a winner every time.

You missed the point. My analogy is about playing chicken. I don't play chicken and that is what my analogy means. If I got hit playing chicken, I believe I would get my [censored] out of the road, don't you?

Kgaa and his wife got hit playing chicken with their marriage.

Kgaa is simply proposing that his wife become a better chicken player ["she has great boundaries now!"] because he is in denial - rather than getting out of the road.

The risk/rewards in this situation are much, much greater than getting hit by a car. Being the victim of an affair is the absolute worst thing that can happen to someone.


We should support him by persuading him to follow Dr Harley's advice, not try to help him make excuses to ignore it. That is NOT supportive.

I won't support him in doing the wrong thing, but I will support him in taking the appropriate actions, which is to MOVE. Kgaa knows this is the right thing to do but he is getting cold feet because it is difficult. Well, recovering from an affair is very difficult. You don't skip important steps just because they are difficult. Just like Harley suggests, when someone refuses to follow his program, you don't move onto the next step until they do.


Since they live so close in proximity to the OM's parents and in such a small community, I view this the same as a WS who works in the same building with her OM. It has the same impact. And since the OM is so close, his WW has the opportunity to resume the affair with ease.

okok, one more post and then it really, really will be my last one!!

When one can't ensure no contact, they need to move. That is standard Marriage Builders advice. Kgaa told Dr Harley he was going to move and he was strongly in favor of this. Here are some of Kgaa's quotes, which explain why he needs to move:




The condition that led to the affair was moving into a new home that was within a mile of the OM's parent's home. That is HOW the affair began.

That condition has not changed..........

Dr Harley addressed this in this radio clip with KGaa and his foggy wife and pointed out his WW's fog in her "belief" that she won't resume contact. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=4081#
and here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=4082#

Arguing with an analogy is not the same as arguing the facts with facts.

I am in no way indicating that relocating is not the BEST option for the healing and recovery...I can also say that it will reduce triggers and unwanted sightings that cant be controlled. Just to clarify how this started. ww and Om say oneanother at a grocery store which in fact is on the other side of town. Contact then made via FB and then phone calls exchanged until A progressed. During A they met various places that were random. The chances now are as good or bad as any for them to cross paths. WW is never alone and if not with me one of the kids r there. W is fine with all that.During A wife and Om made it a point to keep in touch and meet. YES if my wife was alone and saw OM and chose not to walk out of the place things could go bad. Moving would eliminate this chance. My W knows if she even spoke to OM it is over! We r doing all we can to relocate because we want the best life possible for us and our family. You need money and to have money you need jobs....we r trying but in the meantime need to keep our marriage together as this happens.

we want the best life possible for us and our family. You need money and to have money you need jobs....we r trying but in the meantime need to keep our marriage together as this happens.

Which is exactly what I spoke to. I have heard Dr. Harley on one or more of his broadcasts voice the same general rationale, again, intensified by the presence of children.

I'll even go further. (Why not, I haven't created a firestorm in a while.) I would suggest, based on much empirical evidence here and on other sites, that the WORST situation would be for FWW to be well employed in the new locale, with the FBH unemployed or underemployed. The concatenation of "The traditional breadwinner ain't winning any bread," and "He had to leave his previous good job because of her affair," would put large stresses on any marriage - one already burdened with healing from her affair itself would be...messy.

Gotta go now....I have three games to do!

Kgaa, I haven't read the entire thread but I did read the last few pages and listened to the radio clips.

I have to agree with some of the posters (and even Dr Harley) that you two don't seem to completely "get" the addictive nature of affairs. Honestly, I had chills when I was listening to some of the things that your W was saying because they were the EXACT same things my ex was saying to me in recovery. "I am happy in our marriage now." "I don't ever want to put our family thru this again." "I won't do this again" etc

The point is that she isn't in the position to "test" her willpower AT ALL. Period. This is proof of a wayward that "gets" it. Anything less is a red flag.


Your W "knowing" that if she talks to OM again it will be "over!" doesn't mean anything. It really doesn't. Your mindset needs to be "If W sees OM at the market or on the street, there is a good chance the affair will reignite" and "Every time one of us is triggered by driving by OM's parents' street, it is a setback for our recovery."

If you were thinking in these terms, you wouldn't for one minute think that you could possibly recover with OM and his parents living closeby...

KGaa, although there are some or even many cases where a move might not be necessary to restore a marriage, yours doesn't sound like one of them. If (as I believe I've read) your wife's OM's parents are within a mile of your house, that just intuitively sounds to me like far too high a constant, long-term risk of accidental contact between your wife & OM, no matter whether it's a small town or a densely-populated metro area. It just sounds too close for your peace of mind & for your wife's necessary progression through & beyond withdrawal.

You're admittedly struggling with issues of trust & triggers -- you've said as much. Yet what you seem to be asking is, in effect, akin to "How can I feel as assured as possible that I won't get bit (or that if I do get bit, I'll survive a bite), while I'm camping in a known rattlesnake habitat?"

Well, you can keep camping there & put on a suit of metal armor and wear it 24/7, but sooner or later, you're gonna have to use the latrine, my friend! In a rattlesnake habitat! Maybe you'll get bit, maybe you won't, but I don't think you're ever gonna see it as 'peace of mind.' Not in that particular campsite.

Moving doesn't guarantee martial recovery with 100% certainty (just as staying put doesn't guarantee failure with 100% certainty), but you need to be smart about soberly assessing & diligently bettering your odds.

I recently read over some of the previous posts I made and some of the replies. We are in the process of relocating. Potential job offer today and sign is in the yard. This is ALL extremly tough on everyone close to wife and I, but we both are willing to take the steps nessasary to not only have our marriage survive, but actually recover. From previous posts I don't beleive that in the meantime my wifes boundries will save a rekindle alone, but I do beleive it is a complete combination of the damage she has witnessed, an understanding of these principles, knowing hwrswlf and that she has a weakness, avoiding communication with those of the oopisite sex, having her relationship with me improve and meet her needs and yes also boundries and strict EPs that are in place. Can I or she for that matter predict if one day he passes her and waves? No. Does she want to be placed in that situation, no...but to give someone another chance and that includes during the time it takes to uproot an entire family, you must depend on the combination of these principles to work and the mindset that your spouse will apply them in all situations. If this is not in fact true and accurate then NOBODY wojld be able to survive and at one sight of the other person would run into there arms and resume the affair.

I am not trying to suggest that MB doesnt suggest the best policy to ensure a great recovery, but I'd like those to post who are on either aide od this equation and tell me where they relocated to? How long after there A did they actual pick up and move?

I am relocating to have a fresh start, new surroundings to avoid triggers for both and less of a worry about attempted contact.

It has been a little while since I've posted here. I feel that I am at a critical point in Recovery and in my family life. As many have read my wife and I are trying to move forward with our marriage after her recent A of approx. 6 months.

It has been VERY trying for all especially me. As you may have read I was unfaithful also at the onset of our marriage over 15 yers ago, and things were going ok, so I thought when wife's A was discovered. After reading a ton on this forum as well as many of Dr. H books I found that many things were missing from our marriage but the A is inexcusable to say it nicely.

Up to today.....wife has went through all steps up to this point and has agreed on relocation. This is where it gets tough...I thought I would list the Pro's and Con's and hope to get everyone's opinion at the end....

Pro's

The OM's parents live only a mile or so south of our residence. The OM lives on the other side of town and in the past I can't say I ever saw him in the area. OM work requires frequent travel to a city about two hours from here. OM has a office in both locations but is always traveling out of the area. Moving would ensure no future sightings of this OM as well as any family members.

Triggers would be eliminated as a result of the affair.

All these things would virtually eliminate the chance for this affair to rekindle.

Cons

Jobs: I recently starters new job in career I have been in for 16 years. It is a government job with a set pension. I took a salary cut to begin this job and in 6 months will finally be back to a livable wage. Wife has good job in career and has been with same employer for over 10 years. We recently built a new home and are barley making ends meet living pay check to pay check. Wife has received several job offers out of town. I have applied and received none. Moving would require her to be the sole breadwinner in our marriage. Are discussing going and checking out one of the areas we've considered moving too. Don't even have the money for airfare...have to take out a loan to get it done.

Daughter is in her eleventh grade year of high school. She also is finishing up her religious education studies. Both are live long schools and church. Also in this economy was just able to land here first job which is not easy at 16.

Two other daughters are also entrenched in there schools here since born.

Currently only have one vehicle in a family of 5. I am provided a vehicle from my employer but is only for travel to and from work. This would be gone as well.

House which was newly built a year ago which we are lucky to have equity in is in a safe area and serves our kids well.

I feel that my wife and I spent a life time creating this environment for them, and yes all of it was destroyed in a matter of less than six months. I am not afraid to move, sign is in the front yard For Sale By Owner..and am willing to do what I reasonably can to make it happen.

I am broke, no job found yet out of state, putting all of our time into job hunting, house and school hunting, which leaves very little time for my marriage and our kids who don't deserve this upside down life.

I know that affairs have rekindled when you don't move but I also know that if I don't play my card right I could be out of a career, kids in less than adaquet schools, a house that we might not even qualify to by based on income levels....ect....

I know a divorce costs money also. To date all EPs remain in place and we basically don't do anything accept work come home and be together. Ya I guess if wife wanted to she could be speaking with OM on some super secret email account or going to a land phone that I can't monitor, but I have yet to see on here how that is resolved. I know Polygraph every year....she's agreed to it....just for that simple question..have you talked with him at all since the A ended

Any insight would help. Still aching from the A and have much more on my plate now.....

You are fishing for a different answer because you didn't like the answer you got from Dr Harley and other seasoned, experienced posters on this board.

The answer will not change and there is no reason to waste our time debating something that is already settled.

If you don't want to move, don't move. You don't have to take Dr Harley's advice. You just have to be willing to accept the outcome. There is no more "insight" to be given. You don't need our approval to reject Dr Harley's advice. Just reject it and move on.

On second thought let me give you this insight: if you spent this much time and effort looking for solutions instead of reasons why you can't do this, you would probably already have a plan in place.

I would focus on finding solutions if I were you. Hundreds of people have moved. It is never convenient and it is never easy. But it is much easier than experiencing a repeat affair and a divorce.

Once again, you don't have to do a damn thing. It is your life, not ours. My marriage is happy and recovered.


It is more likely to happen if she is continually triggered by the close presence of the OM. That is what you are not getting. You don't get it.

And it will be much easier to go see him if she lives close by. None of that will be a factor if you move. Is the alcoholic more likely to drink again if he is in the bar looking at the beer or if he is away from the bar? Just think on that.

I see the point clearly, I was more interested in the real life feasibility of actually making the relocation happen. If a couple that was having " bad times" in there marriage that did not involve an affair posted here and was in my same circumstances I think the response would be don't move because ur putting to much stress on your relationship and that of your kids...my wife caused this future uncertainty in our life and the health of our marriage...I had things to work on as well in our marriage pre affair but would have made much more progress without an affair and a move, the kids are suffering either way and at times I feel that at least they deserve what's left of there life as they new it...friends, familiar schools a family support system ect....this theory kinda contradicts the exposure angle....exposure serves the purpose for those that were betrayed...me and the kids....not sure how supportive those close to ya can be 2000 miles away....I do see the upside to moving...just seems selfish in a way..kids life is already upside down but they have there surroundings to hold onto...

IT's more important for your kids to have an intact family with 2 parents who are married. Your kids can get new friends and schools, they can't replace the security of your marriage. Divorce is the absolute worst thing that can happen to them, not the loss of a friend or a school.

I understand your kids are suffering, but that is a result of your wife's affair. The whole family pays in some way.

But you aren't a couple having "bad times" that didn't involve an affair. This is a whole different animal that you're dealing with, KG. It's much bigger and dangerous than that. Yes, she did. That's a fact that you have to deal with as a family. Exposure is intended to aid in ending the affair. Sadly, the fallout is dealt with by the entire family. Give them their family to hold on to. They will possibly resent a change. But they will want their family to stay together.

As days progress I feel as if I and we are speeding much less time on our marriage and our whole life revolves around a relocation that was NOT in the plans.

Today was another job turn down for me. I will NOT move with no future employment.

In the real world with a family of 5, there needs to be two incomes. I will not pretend that in some perfect world, when a husband or wife is unfaithful your life can just uproot and relocate to another state just like that.

Some on here may call it an excuse or trying to get the support from those who know better, but bills need paid, my kids need a roof over there head and a support system going through all of this BS in there life now.

My thought right now. Go ahead, make contact with the POSOM again and I am gone. It may not be a threat to her or even keep her from some uncontrollable pressure, but the fact remains, it would be done and I would still have a roof over my head and the kids would still have a life that is intact.

Drug addicts and alcoholics don't become sober because they eliminated all the booze and drugs off the face of the earth. They admit to their addiction and don't place themselves in a position to be tempted to be faced with an impossible situation to get out of.

I move now with no job, no family support, no way to make the bills EXCEPT being totally more or less dependent on my WW income to support me, seems like a sure disaster in the making.

Now if some may be able to provide there insight how they protected there marriage remaining in the same location. As a previous poster stated many have worked remaining as is.

The OM parents living close by doesn't matter much to me. I've never seen him drive by and if I would I'd be sure to communicate in my own special way.

Wife agreed to a post-nip so I don't loose my $&@;? should she make a poor choice. Also EPs are in place and she must live a different life now. Ya it's kinda like being tied down in a sense but as Dr. H says it should be that way anyway.

I know a friend that was a total crack addict. Saw her issue, went to rehab, returned to medical school, and is now a practicing doctor. Well doctors are around a lot of meds and could always be tempted to relapse. Well she was committed to change and is good today.

I don't want to argue or debate the procedures of MB because I firmly believe all steps are in the best interest of saving a marriage.

So...I can't move until employment is found for me out of state. What advise can u provide to best recover if in fact I must stay put in my home town. I hear some already...it's not going to work....I told you so...ect....

Is there anyone one here thatbhad a successful recovery and remained in the same town as there affair partner?..

If not the rule should be...a relocation may be required.....a relocation IS required or you are domed.

I have been reading here for about 4 and 1/2 years. I don't know of anyone who has recovered a marriage when the affair partner was in such close proximity. Today, on today's radio show Dr. and Mrs Harley talk about shortcuts in the program and how they don't work.

AM

Why didnt it work though? Did the behaviors change? I was told that the affairs that rekindle are expected to because the WS refuses to leave their employer where they sit next next to the OP or they continue to go out socially alone ect....

There are some, AM, MSS and HFD being two such examples. (I am also, but mine is, shall we say, a special case.)

How about it colleagues, speak up. Are there any other folks among the veterans who did NOT relocate following the affair termination and marriage recovery, and succeeded, in spite of the difficulties?

Without physical removal, KG and and FWW will have increased risk of re-contact and re-initialization of the "pull" of the affair. I don't envy them the task before them, but will, as already stated, assist as KG needs assistance.

It doesn't matter if behaviors don't change because they won't stay changed if the triggers don't change. It is not about behavior, but about TRIGGERS.

Instead of wasting time trying to find ways to avoid MB advice, we need to support him in finding ways to relocate. I don't know of anyone who made it while living in close proximity to the OP, but I know lots who ended up in repeat affairs and ultimately divorced.

Ad even if we find one such case, using that example would be like telling someone it is ok to smoke because lots of people recover without any lasting harm. For example, I used to smoke 4 packs a day. I quit smoking and have no physical damage. Would it be smart for me to, therefore, tell people to smoke cigarettes?

I have a feeling that KGaas very foggy wife is pressuring him to not move and is simply caving to that pressure. In her discussion with dr H she was coming p with excuses to not move. I suspect her attitude has not changed and she has influenced KGaa to have second thoughts.

I didnt relocate.

I never really even considered it, to be honest.

Because her boyfriend was not in our inner circle of friends in my town, and we didnt expose to this inner circle, I felt no need to move. And, I felt/feel no concern of her running into him or seeking him out. Havent had concern for that in any big way at all.

The only reason to move is if our inner circle (mostly parents of my kids' friends) found out out of embarassment for my kids and my own humiliation. As time goes by I fear this less.

But, I concur with KG, go ahead reach out to your boyfriend and let me find out, I will have a house and 2 kids while she'll have nothing and every other weekend.

According to Dr. Harley, most marriages affected by an affair should move:


This is from the How to Survive an Affair chapter in His Needs, Her Needs, p. 177.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2570030#Post2570030

My wife is not and has not tried to deter the move. She has a job offer and is ready to go visit the place in a few weeks. She just said today to that if I feel ita beat to expose to a work friend because he kinda help me get my job, that I may ne leaving soon to go ahead I made my bed I need to sleep in it. They r not as is the OM in our circe of friends here. Would I move if realistically possible, yes to ease the recovery, but to say u have to if u follow MB peinciples and u our in true love with your partner, isnt that affair proofing?

Nope, it is not. Affair proofing is making sure there is no contact FOR LIFE even if you have to move to another state.

And you don't have to follow a single MB principle. It all voluntary. You are Free to cut any corner and ignore the advice.

Also what is causing me to so called "cave" for the move is no job, depending soley on my wifes income, changing careers if even possible, ruining my credit and financial future ect....if i could just tranfer to anither state ir city, no problem, but many people cant aurvive

So...how close is too close? How far away would you have to go?

Lots of people take lots of shortcuts in MB and then contact Dr. Harley to tell him that his plans don't work. He actually talked about it on the today's radio show.

I stand by my statement that I don't know of recovered marriages when there are triggers right down the street and potential contact at any time.

My H and I moved 1200 miles and several states away from OW. H retired early and we took a huge hit to our income. We now live more simply, in a less expensive home. We take one vacation a year instead of several. We have one older car (the affair car was totalled when the garage fell on it after a big snowstorm). Our son lives at home and attends community college instead of going away to a more expensive school.

Keep applying and keep trying for a different job and a move. And, if you don't find one right away, move anyway and figure out how to live on one income for a period of time.

It is all about choices. For us, all these choices were preferable to divorce. I have no doubt that if we hadn't made these changes, we would be divorced by now and quality of life for both of us would be unpleasant.

AM

I would find a way to do it so you don't leave without a job or ruin your credit. It is not like you have to choose. You have to keep looking for jobs and be creative. So many people before you have moved and they did not go jobless or ruin their credit.

I can understand that you are feeling good that you have a job that will provide a good salary, benefits, and pension.

Jobs as those are hard to get these days. So I feel your fear.

Thing is many people commute 1 to 1.5 hours each way 5 days a week.

Sell that home and move 1 hour away from OM parents, and you will then be 2 hours away from OM.

Thing is I don't remember if your WW worked with OM or OM did business where WW worked. If either is the case WW needs a new job yesterday.

People every day lose jobs, homes, are forced to move. They survive.

Affairs cause financial, physical, and mental pain.

"Even IF you have to move to another state" when do you have to and when don't you?

We could move am hour away and then she would still tech. Be able to meet up when she drove into town for work..MB would then advise, u are not in close proximity to him or family so justp dont talk to him anymore. Right? NC..if his parents did not live close would thatp change things.

How big is your town? What is the pop?

220,000

So maybe the solution is to move to a part of town that is not close to the OM's parents? Did you consider that?

Do you think that would work?

**edit**

A reminder to posters that the purpose of this forum is to help posters understand and implement MB principles. This is not a personal opinion venue. If you can't do that, please refrain from posting. Any questions, shoot me an email.