Marriage Builders®
Posted By: Scotland Ummmmmm I installed a keylogger - 11/17/09 07:56 PM
Well, I have to make this short and sweet as I have been known to be long winded.
H and I have been together for almost 18yrs married for 12. I was his first anything. I had BFs in the past but nothing passed kissing.
We have 2 Sons 6 and 9. He works in an office Mon-Fri 9-530 and i work a PT job wed,thurs nights and sat and sundays during the day. He goes out with friends every Friday or Saturday night.

2 Years ago i received a call from a girl at his work that told me that he was making a fool out of me at work and that he was carrying on a relationship with OW at work, going on lunches with her and leaving work early to hang out. I called him he came home and said that nothing was happening they were "just friends".
There were a few incidents of lies about calling her and i even found him at her appt when he said he was going to be some place else. He told me they weren't having an affair but i believe it was emotional.

He is a very closed off person and he says that he has never talked to her about us or our problems at all. I have talked to her 3 times and the last time she actually annoyed me to the point that i wanted to hit her. I of course did not.

2 months ago on our 12th wedding anniversary my H gave me the ILYBINILWY line. I asked him if he thought about leaving and he said yes. I didn't rage or cry on the outside instead i calmly talked to him about what would happen when he left(welfare, sell house, kids lose school friends, etc.) We have agreed that since he couldn't leave by Nov 1st that he would have to stay in the house till February so the kids wouldn't remember xmas or our younger son's bday as the day daddy left. Emotionally it has been really hard for me but i have been getting through it.

He informed me a month ago that he is moving out in February and to noone's surprise he is moving into her "extra bedroom".

Last night, we were out at pool league when the owner of the bar asked me what was going on and I said things seemed to be getting better. She said, "but he isn't wearing his wedding ring" I burst into tears. I hadn't even noticed. I asked him when he took it off and he said a week ago. Then i asked y he hadn't told me and he said he thought i would have noticed by then. He said he had been keeping it in his pocket so he wouldn't lose it. I asked for it back and have placed it in a safe place.

How do I go about exposing an EA to my list of people? I have told my family and friends. How do I tell ppl at his work, since they do work together and actually sit beside each other all day long every day?
He doesn't really talk to his relatives and he has very few friends (4) who all work with him and don't know me at all.
Been attempting to do Plan A without even realizing it for 3 weeks and thought things were getting better. I expressed that to him and he said "yea because I was treating you like a friend." My response was, "Sometimes you treat me worse" and he said "that's cuz I know you." My heart is just breaking over and over again but I m keeping it together.
Any replies to this topic will help laugh
Hey cowgirl, welcome to MB, I am so sorry you have to be here.

I am equally sorry to have to tell you it is a PA. There is no way it would have gone on this long without sexual activity. The fact he is planning on moving in with her sets off redflag too.

So far he is behaving according to script. The fact he is still living at home is a huge bonus for you, it means you can really knuckle down on a tight plan A. Then when/if he moves out you will be able to go into a solid plan B.

Have you read the articles, 10 basic facts and much on the forums? DO you realise your about to do some of the hardest work ever!

Dont worry about being long winded, we love detail, it helps us help you. And I love your name BTW, I am a dairy farmer, so am a sort of cow girl too
The next thing we need to address is snooping. Yes it is an actual requirement. Many an A has fallen by evidence uncovered by a savvy snooping spouse. It also gives extra oomph to exposure when your not just saying "my WS is having an affair", but "WS is having an affair and here are the facts and details..."

I stole this from holyhearts thread...
Originally Posted By: holyheart
If I had advice for Newbies, that's what it would be. Don't wait until after the WS leaves or even when they say that the A is over. SPY, SNOOP and INVESTIGATE right from the get-go. And do not give up your sources. And do not... do not... spill the secrets you find until you absolutely have to. And nothing is off-limits because you never, never know when you may need the info. Photos, receipts, ticket stubs -- whatever. They may not make any sense at the beginning, but they will when you have to start putting the puzzle together. Keep a calendar, too, so you can reconcile credit card transactions with what was going on that day. Thankfully, I keep my purse calendars each year and I alway wrote when D!ck would be out of town and the reason.


there is a syping thread on here, I'll look for and bump for you.
I agree, it's a physical affair.
You need to expose this affair *yesterday*.

Here is some info on exposure; just change the gender to suit your own situation. I will say that with the affair this entrenched and the plans already in place for him to move in with OW he may just go ahead and move out. So be prepared for that.

--Exposure targets
Anyone with influence over your WS or the marriage. WS' parents, siblings, best friend, children if they're over 4. OP's siblings, parents, spouse. Your priest or similar if you're religious. Their employer if they work together. Work exposure should be done *in writing* to the head of HR, the CEO, and WS' boss. All of them should know the others were copied; this makes it harder for them to toss the letter into the trash and forget about it.

--Exposure message
Use a formal letter for work exposure. Everything else is short and sweet: "OP and WS are having an affair. I love WS and I am committed to doing whatever it takes to repair our marriage and make it better than ever. I'd appreciate any advice you might have." The exposure message is not vengeful; it is a message of love.

--No warning
Do NOT threaten to expose, do not tell her you're going to expose. Just do it. If she has advance warning, she will tell her friends and family "We are having trouble in our marriage. H is controlling and angry. He won't talk to me, he won't listen to me. He is possessive and jealous, and he accuses me of insane things. Sometimes I'm scared for my physical well-being, he's changed that much. Thank goodness I have friends to talk to, otherwise I don't think I could bear the abuse. OM has been especially helpful in offering insights into how a man would see things. I just hope we can make it but I'm not sure we can." How do you think your exposure is going to sound after an oscar winning performance like that?

--Exposure after-effects
Your WS is going to be furious. You will hear predictable things like "I can never trust you again. I was going to dump OP and reconcile but you've blown any chance of that. I hate you. I'm filing for D." Don't EVEN pay attention to this stuff. Your WS is just angry because the super-fun super-secret affair is suddenly looking downright tawdry and the fun is turning into a nightmare. Just ignore most of it. If your WS tries to talk about divorce, say "I don't do divorce, I do marriage." Then change the subject. If your WS tries to pick a fight, tell them you'd very much like to discuss things when you can both be calm and rational, and leave the room if you have to. If she says things like "How could you do this?!" tell her you'll do whatever it takes to save your marriage.
A sample exposure letter, written by Brit's Brat, a MB member and corporate attorney:

To Whom It May Concern:

This letter is to bring a matter to your attention that may be a violation of your Company's Code of Conduct and/or other policies, procedures and business ethics.

WS and WS are involved in an extramarital affair that is taking place, primarily, in the workplace. Aside from the potential sexual harassment claims this situation presents, it also involves the inappropriate use of company resources and assets. WS and WS are using company time and company resources to further their affair. If you check the call histories on their office and cell phones along with their workstation computers, you will find the two of them are spending an inordinate amount of what should be productive work time to further their sexual relationship.

If you have any questions, please call me at xxx-xxxx. Otherwise, I will anticipate a response from you once you have investigated these concerns and taken appropriate corrective action.

Regards,

BS
Thanx for the great advice so far. I have snooped in the past and actually found some very interesting things and he got really good at hiding. I have thought about going to where he works and sit outside and wait to see if they come out together and follow them to see what happens.
I have also thought about going to their work one Sunday afternoon and follow her home from work and then the next time that he says he is going to another friend's house I am going to go to her house and see if he is there instead. Is that too much?

As far as the work thing, I dunno if it is against any of their policies because they are just co-workers and I know that they allow married couples to work there. I think I am going to call his mother and sister although he doesn't talk to them so I don't know how that will help. His bestfriend at the moment is her and he only has two other friends who happen to work at his work so I only know his their first names.

I asked him on Monday what he was going to tell people when he leaves and he said "I will say that we seperated and it was mutual." I was a little upset and i said "But that would be a lie." and his response was "I don't tell anyone my personal business"

I know I am going to have a lot of work ahead of me and I also know that he is going to leave. He may even leave earlier once he finds out what I am about to do (telling his work about this).

Thanx and keep it coming I have a feeling I am going to need a lot of this. I have a lot of friends but none have gone through this and come out together on the other end. And all of them have told me the "Kick him out now" "Why are you letting him walk all over you by staying there" I know they are trying to help but they don't know what I really need.
Originally Posted By: cowqueen
Thanx for the great advice so far. I have snooped in the past and actually found some very interesting things and he got really good at hiding. I have thought about going to where he works and sit outside and wait to see if they come out together and follow them to see what happens.
I have also thought about going to their work one Sunday afternoon and follow her home from work and then the next time that he says he is going to another friend's house I am going to go to her house and see if he is there instead. Is that too much?

As far as the work thing, I dunno if it is against any of their policies because they are just co-workers and I know that they allow married couples to work there. I think I am going to call his mother and sister although he doesn't talk to them so I don't know how that will help. His bestfriend at the moment is her and he only has two other friends who happen to work at his work so I only know his their first names.

I asked him on Monday what he was going to tell people when he leaves and he said "I will say that we seperated and it was mutual." I was a little upset and i said "But that would be a lie." and his response was "I don't tell anyone my personal business"

I know I am going to have a lot of work ahead of me and I also know that he is going to leave. He may even leave earlier once he finds out what I am about to do (telling his work about this).

Thanx and keep it coming I have a feeling I am going to need a lot of this. I have a lot of friends but none have gone through this and come out together on the other end. And all of them have told me the "Kick him out now" "Why are you letting him walk all over you by staying there" I know they are trying to help but they don't know what I really need.


Aaagghhh, Waywards! rant2 Cowqueen, you need to get to work. Snoop, snoop, snoop. Start collecting your info and be ready to use it to expose this mess. Yes, it's PA, not EA, and you'll find things - doesn't matter how much he tries to hide it. Check cell phone records, checking accounts, debit & credit card transactions, document everything.

As far as their job goes - no company owner wants to get a certified letter stating that two employees are screwing around and using company resources to do it. Especially when the letter references a possible sexual harassment charge - instant rash for a company owner. They'll have to respond to a letter that says that. Especially if you copy the letter to more than one higher-up (exp: President, Vice-President, HR person, company attorney, etc.)
Expose to everyone you can think of who could lend any support to you as far as ending the A. Family, friends, co-workers, etc.
Plan A. Show him that what he has at home is ever so much better than anything else he thinks he wants.
There's more - the vets will be here shortly to add to what I've said.
Okay, here is a bit about my snooping past. I have always been kind of a snooper. I looked at redials, and incoming calls always. I even checked mileage on the car to make sure that it equaled where he said he was going.
After I received the phone call from his work I became a super sleuth but I also couldn't hold any of the things in when I found them so he got really good at hiding. I have complete access to email and facebook accts that I know of. I have tried to determine if he had other accounts and have not found any.

We have one bank account and one credit card and I have online access to both. There is no unexplained money trails.

As far as his cell phone, I also have online access to every call made and that's how I found out he had been calling her for 9 months while I was at work. There are no unknown calls on there either.

The only thing I don't know for sure at the moment is that he goes where he says apart from work which is usually one night every 2 weeks.

He no longer brings his pay stubs home because I had approached him about the missing hours and vacation time used.

Our separation plan at the moment is that he will leave and live in her "extra bedroom" and not pay her any rent. He will continue to deposit his cheques in the account and all bills will continue to be paid as always. He will come and watch the boys in my home when I have to go to work. I haven't read much about Plan B yet but I dunno how I am going to impliment it with this arrangement which at the moment is ideal.

Since logging on to this this morning I wrote message on facebook to his mother just stating the facts and telling her that I want to work at saving this marriage and I don't expect her to choose sides as he is her son. I have also decided to write to his company and tell them but it is a large company and I don't know if I should just send one big envelope to the office he works from with smaller envelopes with the President, Vice-President, HR and Company Attorney written on them. Any advice on that would be appreciated.

As far as the snooping thing goes, I believe that I have enough evidence that something has been going on that I don't need anymore.

Thanx again
Don't forget...expose to OW's family and friends.

OW's parents shouldn't like their precious daughter dating a married man with children. Plus, any hope your husband has of a good relationship with them one day would be OUT THE WINDOW.

Mr. W
I fell a little weird telling people he is having an affair when I don't have concrete proof that it has become physical. I know that you (as well as all of my RL friends) have been convinced since the beginning that it was, but I was blind to it. Even if it was EA it has gone way to far already. I am seriously sick of the lies. I am sure there will be a lot of new lies coming.

I have ordered Surviving an Affair and His Needs, Her Needs, but I have to wait for them to come in.

I don't know any of her friends and family so I don't know how that one can be accomplished.

I am not physically afraid but I am frightened as to what will be coming next. I have a lot of support and I am strong enough to get through this completely intact and better. Life is going to get hard for a while first.

My husband cried over the fact that he would be leaving the kids and I know he is going to feel extreme guilt when he lives in her house as she has a 9yr old daughter.

I do believe that it is like he has been taken over by an alien and even more than one. He doesn't even seem to remember what he said last week let alone what he says were his values 3 years ago.
I feel like the universe and fate sent me this website for a reason and I take it as a sign that I was supposed to try to save it.
In the past 3 years H sister left her husband, BOL left my sister and then my mom left my dad. All of these marriages had other issues like abuse and addiction but they all also ended in affairs. I thought we had made it but I guess it was just the beginning.
And let him know you won't be cooperating with his easy/sleazy divorce scheme.

If he wants a divorce -- he only gets the ugly kind. No "mutual" decisions. No nice sweet co-parenting.

Let him know you will NOT be his friend if he proceeds with moving out and divorcing.
Take $500 out of the bank and hire a PI to get access to all of OW's family. Get the names/addresses/etc. of anyone he works with (his other friends). Saving your marriage is worth the money.

Then sit down and write/call all of them in one day - including your H's siblings, cousins, and aunts and uncles. Otherwise, they'll go to those you haven't yet called, and tell them you're a crazy person and not to listen to you.

It doesn't matter what proof you have. All you have to tell people is that he is leaving you and moving into her 'spare bedroom' - and make sure you use the quote marks! They will ALL understand what's really going on.

And by all means, DO write - individually - to the president, VP, CEO, and legal department of his company. Do it individually so someone doesn't realize what you're doing and run to stop the others from being delivered.
I know my marriage is worth any amount of money unfortunately we live absolutely pay cheque to pay cheque so there isn't 500 dollars to get at.
I told My MIL and SIL today and even one of his old best friends whom is a female he met at work and knew him until a few years ago. She may be able to get me access to the one friend from his work that I only know the first name of and I am going to contact him and the one other friend who I do know.

He doesn't talk to any of his other family, and he has no other friends.

My MIL says she won't take sides, and I told her that that wasn't what I was looking for.

My SIL (who actually cheated on her own husband and is now living with OM and has 2 kids by him) said she couldn't believe that her brother would do something like that. She said that he loves me and the boys so much she is just in shock.

I have a rough draft of the letter for his work and I will be mailing them out as soon as I get the addresses for them all.

I don't know what to expect from his workplace but I will definitely be bracing myself for the day he finds out what I did. I am doing this for the best laugh Head high and still smiling.
Originally Posted By: cowqueen
I know my marriage is worth any amount of money unfortunately we live absolutely pay cheque to pay cheque so there isn't 500 dollars to get at.
I told My MIL and SIL today and even one of his old best friends whom is a female he met at work and knew him until a few years ago. She may be able to get me access to the one friend from his work that I only know the first name of and I am going to contact him and the one other friend who I do know.

He doesn't talk to any of his other family, and he has no other friends.

My MIL says she won't take sides, and I told her that that wasn't what I was looking for.

My SIL (who actually cheated on her own husband and is now living with OM and has 2 kids by him) said she couldn't believe that her brother would do something like that. She said that he loves me and the boys so much she is just in shock.

I have a rough draft of the letter for his work and I will be mailing them out as soon as I get the addresses for them all.

I don't know what to expect from his workplace but I will definitely be bracing myself for the day he finds out what I did. I am doing this for the best laugh Head high and still smiling.



It sounds like the workplace letter may be your best defense. And then Plan A like crazy.
Woman, ....puh-lease.

If I waddles, eats crackers and quacks... it is a duck.
(and if it AINT a duck, let the duck explain....)

Your WH is threatening the stability of your children's home/family/life. You are smart enough to come here, you are strong enough to do this.

You have a few months, PA, PA -- until your LB can not take it anymore.

People here will help you.

God bless.
yup
Okay, I know what I have to do is Plan A. What exactly should I and shouldn't I do while in Plan A?
I don't have my book yet and I couldn't find the info on here that detailed any guidelines. If anyone can tell me that much to start with until I get my book that would be great so I don't do further damage in the meantime laugh
He hasn't admitted to an affair and I don't think he ever will. How do I go about doing this the right way?
I have been kind of a crazy person for the past 2 years with jealousy and insecurities. I know that he lied to me a lot because I found out and confronted him. 2 weeks ago for the first time in our marriage, he stayed out all night and didn't call me until the morning when he had an excuse about falling asleep on his male friend's couch. Of course I knew it was a lie but I didn't get angry or even really react to it. I let him believe that I believed his story but I know deep down that it is a lie.

We don't hold hands or kiss or hug. We sleep in the same bed still but it is only sleeping. I see him looking at me sometimes and I know that he still feels something for me but it is hidden behind these other feelings. It is seriously like he is possessed.

He doesn't talk about things and he definitely doesn't want to talk about any relationship things.
We are going to have to live together until February and I know I can keep myself together in front of him until then. I have a lot of caring friends and great support.

When he leaves he will still be coming here to watch our children while I am at work so do I implement Plan B then?
I had plans that I would walk out the back door when he was here and not answer the phone when he calls for the kids. Is that what I should do?

Can someone please tell me what I am supposed to be doing in Plan A? Do I make home seem nice by doing good things like taking care of the kids fully, making dinner and generally just not bringing up anything that is painful? That's what I have been doing for 3 weeks since I found this site.

I just kind of live life like nothing is going on unless he wants to talk about something. I also make sure to show him that I am having a good time with the kids and when he plays with them he looks at me to see what I am doing and I make sure he sees me smiling.

I felt really lost and helpless before I found this site and all of the concepts and other things on here have helped so much
Thanx
For Plan A, read up on Emotional Needs. Figure out what his top three are and put your efforts into meeting those. If Sexual Fulfillment (SF) and Affection (A) are in the top, those will be tough to meet with you guys living like roommates, but there are still things you can do.

If SF is a top need of his, dress to show off your best assets. Touch him lightly on the arm or leg when you talk to him. Lean over and show some cleavage. Tell him a really good dirty joke. Wear your greatest underwear.

Most guys have admiration as a top EN. Pay attention to stuff he does and admire him for it. Admiration is especially strong, IMO, when you admire him to someone else, but where he can hear it. "John grilled out Wednesday night and it was soooo good. I can't hold a candle to his cookout skills." "You should ask John about that; he's a wizard when it comes to XYZ." Or if you need help with something, ask him to help you figure it out, fix it, solve it - and then admire him for being so good at that type of thing.

Many guys have Recreational Companionship as a high EN. So do really fun stuff that you know he'd enjoy. Invite him along (don't expect him to accept). Go and have a blast. Then tell him "Oh, it was great! You would have absolutely loved it, it's a shame you didn't go" - but don't nag him about not going. Just let him know he's missing out on time with a really fun gal.

Plan A does NOT mean being a doormat and doing "anything it takes" to make him happy. If he lies, tell him matter of factly "You and I both know that's not true." then change the subject "Can I get you some tea?"

There's a thing that gets passed around here called "The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A". Hopefully someone will post it here or you'll see it on another thread. It does a good job of illustrating the balance between meeting ENs and not getting walked on.

Your strength is incredible, by the way.
This is a summary of plan A:

The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A

The carrot of Plan A


Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.



The stick of Plan A


Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not appologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.
Thanx, I am finding this really helpful. All of my RL friends can't believe that I am not just kicking him out right now, kicking her butt and that I am even considering taking him back(when/if he wants to come back that is).

It is worth it to me. My MIL just says she doesn't get involved in these things. My SIL and his previous bestfriend say they are in complete SHOCK(my response was "tell me about it"). They just keep saying they can't believe he would do this to me and our boys because he loves us so much. I have read enough on here to see how it happened.

I am working on a solid Plan A with the suggestions from you all and we will see where it goes from there.

I do believe that his top 3 EN are Admiration, SF, and RC. I know we had many arguments in the past about not enough SF, not laughing at his jokes or thinking he is funny anymore.

He plays in a Pool League and I attend every week. I realized 3 weeks ago that I stopped showing interest in the games and he stopped talking to me about them. I started showing more interest in the games and it seemed to perk him up and even other people noticed he was talking to me more.

I thought we were going in a good direction until I found out he had taken off his wedding ring. I dunno what he is trying to do. I am going to do my best and I believe that everything happens for a reason I just hope in the end I still have a good marriage.

Here's to HOPE and FAITH.
Cowgirl --

Its really really important that you not cooperate with him.

Do not operate from a place of fear and give in to his requests, or accomodate his plan.

It is NOT ok for him to plan on leaving in February -- and you were wrong to agree to it. It is NOT ok for him to move in with OW, and you do NOT want to give the impression that you believe for one second that it will be in a spare room.

You need to change the fact that he goes out on Friday and Saturday nights without you. His most enjoyable recreational time should be spent with YOU.

It sounds like you need to change jobs so that your schedule is more available to spending time with him and time as a family.
Time to get creative, instead of just saying 'I can't afford a PI.'

You have friends, right? Ask them to help you by following him. Tell them his schedule, and ask them to cover the times when he is away from you (aside from the hours inside the work place), and tail him, with a camera.

It shouldn't be that hard to come up with a list of locations he drives to.

Also, you can buy a voice-activated recorder from Radio Shack and put it under the seat of his car (attach it with velcro) and tape who he talks to in the car.

If you're going to be away from home while he is home, borrow someone's video camera and hide it in the bookcase or something, and record the room you expect him to spend the most time in.

Find anyone you know at his work, and ask for their help in letting you know what he does there.
Originally Posted By: cowqueen
Thanx, I am finding this really helpful. All of my RL friends can't believe that I am not just kicking him out right now, kicking her butt and that I am even considering taking him back(when/if he wants to come back that is).


Ah, yes, the friends who DON'T HAVE A CLUE about marital commitment. I've got a few of those. grumble So easy for them to say things like that, having no idea what it's really like. Come to think of it - I had the same attitude. Then it happened to me. doh2
How do I stop him from doing anything?

I can't keep him in the house. He has told me that it is over between us so what am I supposed to do? He also told me that he doesn't want to work on anything, he is DONE. I can still save this marriage with the tools I have and I know that I have to get their A finished to truly move on but in the meantime I have to make home a place he wants to be right?

He hasn't admitted to anything beyond a friendship so he isn't acknowledging a problem with their "friendship". I tried over the past 2 years to enlighten him to the fact that they had an inappropriate relationship and it has been a major strain in our marriage. I did and said some pretty hurtful things for those 2 years and I know that it drove him away. No excuse to either of them doing this but I accept my responsibility for the part I played in the marriage breakdown.

He said "It just isn't working anymore and I just want us both to be happy." I told him I wasn't happy about this. His response is that I would be eventually.

If I am in Plan A, how do I talk to him about the feelings and the fact that I don't want him to go. I don't really know what to say to him right now. At first, I totally withdrew from him and even told him things like he wasn't part of our family anymore since he wanted to leave. I feel like I said some hurtful things because I was hurt and I felt lost. I excluded him from family things and ignored him most of the time. He became really polite to the point where he was thanking me for cooking dinner, doing laundry and even sweeping the kitchen floor. It drove me nuts and I told him so.

He is giving me a huge amount of mixed signals and I don't know what to believe when he talks to me anymore. He is possessed by something and I don't know what to say to him anymore.

What should I tell him now? Should it be that I do still love him, I don't want him to move out, I want to work on this to keep this marriage together, that I am going to do whatever it takes to stay together? Most of all that no matter what has taken place with her that I am willing to reconcile?

I am still keeping it together. Glad to get the advice from people who have done it since I know no one in RL who has. Keep it coming.
Wow what a difference a couple of hours makes. My H just called me from work and he told me that his cell phone was dead. He said he was calling to tell me that I don't have to make him dinner tonight because he is going out. I said "Tell OW I said Hi". I know it was an angry outburst but I was caught a little off guard.

I told him that I know that he is not moving in to her extra bedroom but that he is choosing her over his family and that I am not in denial about that anymore. I told him that I know that he is going out with her tonight and when the boys ask where he is I am going to tell them the truth. He was silent. I told them that when he leaves us I will also tell them the truth about that too. He said that that is my choice and it is low for me to use the boys like that. I said that I am not using the boys I am just no longer lying to them about what is going on. I don't think he was expecting this kind of conversation today I think he expected me to just say "OK see you later".

He asked me to give the boys a hug and kiss for him and tell them that he loves them and I told him NO.
I said that it is unfair to me to do that when he is not showing love to them by choosing to take time away from them to feed his addiction. I told him that I know that he feels like he loves her right now and although that is not ok with me I am willing to work through it to keep this marriage together.
His response was that there is nothing to keep together.

I am kinda falling apart right now but I am gonna try to keep strong.
cq, that was AMAZING!

Wow!
Cat: thanx it felt kinda amazing at the time that I actually had that much self control......

Well, I seem to be getting some kind of reaction out of him which I think is a positive thing anyways.

On Friday night, he came home at 930pm. I was in total shock. He usually doesn't come home until after midnight.

Then I started to do the little things suggested to me on here where I touched his hand, and even worn a PJ that showed off my "best assets". When he put the boys to bed on Saturday, he said "is there any reason you are flashing our children?" I said "Nope. It's just hot in here." I didn't even think that he noticed because I hadn't even seen him look at me.

Last night when I went to bed I kissed him on the cheek and said Good night. I woke up at 3am and noticed that he was sleeping as far away from me as possible. I could think of that as a bad sign but I actually think of it as maybe the fact that I am getting to him and he is trying to pull himself away. I think he was sure of his decision to leave and now he is confused again.
I mailed the exposure letters away to their work today so now I just wait to see what happens.

One Step at a time. Can't wait to get my books.
I think you are doing a stellar job. You are a MB poster child right now.

One thing I would caution you about is relationship talk during Plan A. This can get tricky, and is a bit of a balancing act. On the one hand, you MUST call him out on his lies. You did a great job of that by telling him you're no longer in denial etc. Don't enable his fantasy! Don't make it easy for him to tell himself "Everyone will be fine, we're all going to be happier in the long run." You're doing this part *great*.

The stuff you want to avoid is talking about what went wrong, what needs fixing, whose at fault in what areas, etc. I wouldn't even tell him that you now recognize you did things to drive him away. All he will hear is you saying "Yes I forced you to have an affair, you are innocent." Focus on eliminating those love busters and let your actions speak for themselves. Focus on you, you, you.

I wouldn't mention Marriage Builders to him either, or any of your newfound info. It's hard sometimes because as you learn the MB principles, things fall into place, lightbulbs go off, and you get excited to run share this with your spouse. He is NOT in a frame of mind to hear this right now. Later (months later, perhaps) you can bring it up but NOT NOW. Right now it will come across as huge fat Disrespectful Judgment. You, being all superior in your knowledge, preaching to him, the poor stupid incompetent. Don't go there.

So don't enable the affair, but don't examine the marriage or try to fix it yet.
Thanx for the advice on not talking about the things that went wrong. I had done that at first and I even was trying to tell him about the things that would happen when he left. Some of the things he said "I am not STUPID. I already know that stuff." and other things he said was "I am not like other people." I realized pretty quickly that that was NOT working.

I have not told him about MB. If I did I think he would actually take that as a bad sign.

I talked a bit about our relationship in the way that I said that I was willing to do whatever I had to to keep this relationship together. I also said that no matter how far this affair has gone I am still willing to stay with him and work through it.

I have been playing with the kids more in front of him and whenever they push my buttons, I make sure to take a deep breath and relax before dealing with them. WH and I have had many arguments about me not dealing with the discipline part very well so I have thrown myself right into it. I have assumed all of the Domestic responsibilities and making sure bills were taken care of etc.

I have decided that whenever he says anything remotely funny, I make sure to smile and laugh. I am going to try to say positive things about him when he is within earshot but that may be a lot harder to accomplish.

Thank you everyone for your advice so far. I hope to be able to thank you all in the best possible way, when my WH and I are recovered and happy again.
A bad sign? He's had an affair.

The worst he can do is refuse to participate. You need to start saying "this is what you need to do for me to want to recover with you."
Right now he hasn't admitted to any affair. He still says they are just friends (PUH-LEASE). He also says that there is nothing left for me to save. He says it is over and done and he is leaving no matter what I say or do.

I know he is in a total "FOG" right now and he only sees OW as a good thing and his best possible move right now. He doesn't want to work on us so I am just Plan Aing the crap right outta this marriage. I can handle it for a while and i think that I will continue it until just after he leaves. Then I wil be onto Plan B as he will be living in her home.

Right now there is no reasoning with him so I am not even trying to. I know he loves me and right now he is actually worried whenever I am late coming home from work. He thinks that I am going to leave him. I told him that I am not leaving.
I'll let the vets handle this. cowqueen, you're in a fog of your own.

Blindly trusting him is not helping you.
He is worried you are late coming home because--he is probably in an affair and as the saying goes, no one's more afraid of thieves than a thief.
I am not blindly trusting him anymore. I was trying to believe him for the past 2 years and I was hoping that he wasn't anything more than friends with her even when he was telling me he was leaving me to move into her "extra bedroom".
I am not in denial anymore but I also am not going to believe that he just stopped loving me either. He is giving me mixed signals and he is saying different things all the time.

I don't believe I am in a FOG right now I am just trying to work on this and stay positive. I am an optimist and I know to many it may seem like I am grasping at straws. Well maybe I am but those straws are what is helping me not drown.

It is hard to deal with a WH that doesn't want to be in the M anymore and before I found this site and this forum I felt alone and helpless. I know it would be a lot easier if my WH wanted to work on things but he isn't. He has been in complete withdrawal for at least 6 months previous to DDay. I am just trying to do what is best for my M with the tools and opportunities I have right now.

I am NOT giving up.
Quote:
I told him that I am not leaving.
I'm not sure I would be saying this any more. WHs HATE to think that their BW wouldn't be sitting around the house, pining for them, begging for scraps. It is part of what ATTRACTS them to an affair; it feeds their ego.

IIWY, I would find some things that need to be done outside the house, where you need him to watch the kids. He gets home, you're dressed nicely, smell good, makeup on, even if you're just going to the drugstore. (but make sure you take time to go through all the magazines, no matter how long it takes!)

Let him SEE that you have a life outside of him. He needs to realize this. Many men simply don't. They think that, once they give you a wedding ring, they don't have to work at it any more - you'll stick through anything.

Teach him differently.
When I told him I wasn't leaving what I meant was that it wasn't me that was walking out the door. He keeps telling me that he thinks I am just going to pack up the kids and move and not tell him where I am going. Should I let him just think that?

I have been dressing up more and wearing perfume but I wasn't going out that much by myself. I think i will take your advice for sure. Maybe I will start watching a lot of movies at the nearest theater and take up reading some books in the car at a park. Should I tell him when I have plans though? Just something like "Oh, I am going out tomorrow after work." I am not going to tell him what I am doing, or where I am going but should I tell him anything?

I am bracing for the day when his workplace receives the exposure letter.
Quote:
Should I let him just think that?
Why not? WHs typically cannot STAND to think that their nice, sweet wife would EVER want anything but to stay at home pining for them. That's half the appeal of having an affair - he's got two women begging for his time.

Yes, tell him you have plans. Don't shove it in his place, just couch it in terms of 'oh, can you watch the kids? I have to get somewhere tonight.'

It'll drive him crazy.
I m having a really bad day today. What do I do when I know that he is contacting her and now hiding it from me completely? He changed his password for his email today and now I searched my computer and found that he logged on to web messenger. I think that's why he changed his password so I couldn't find out what he said.

Is there a keylogger that he won't be able to find on here?

I want to just go to him and tell him to stop lying to me and I am really angry. I was supposed to go to work tonight but I can't. This morning there was a flat tire on our truck and he was late for work. I asked him if he called and he said he did but I didn't find it on redial at all.

I dunno what I am supposed to do right now. I am trying hard to be in plan A as I think Plan B would be hard to do while he is still living at home. When WS feel that BS are doing things to make it better do they do things to make us angry and try to pull away? I really don't know what it is I am supposed to do right now.
Posted By: Scotland Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 11/27/09 06:10 AM
I found one sided chats.......I used WH credit card so I dunno how long I will have it on but there is enuff there that I know that they have had sex......what do I do? Do I let him stay still and do I not tell him anything and stay in Plan A
Have you exposed to people?

YES, you let him stay and you Plan A as much and as hard as you can. Let him remember what HOME is like.
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 11/27/09 06:36 AM
You can lovingly confront him, letting him know quietly and calmly that you know they are having sex. Just DO NOT reveal the source of your intel. Keep the channel open as long as you can, but even if he finds out, you know enough.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 11/27/09 11:56 AM
he did find out and when I went to bed he was awake and unfortunately I didn't do so great......

I wasn't loud or even crying but I told him that I know all about it and then I made a big mistake and I called OW.......I talked to her for an hour while he sat there and listened and I said some stuff.......

It wasn't nasty but I am not proud of myself......Should I just consider this a learning experience and try to Plan A again?

I don't have the books yet should have them in 3 weeks or so so I am flying blind here......

I have exposed as much as I can, unfortunately I told them about it too. I was having extreme verbal diarrhea and I wasn't able to stop myself as I was seeing RED. I know I screwed up but can I still save it? It was hard to do the Plan A the first time but I had gotten good at it until I saw what he was writing.

I was sure that he was going to leave me this morning but not yet. I tried to make OW see how wrong morally this was and I even told her some things about our relationship to show her that he is lying already. She was pretty quiet at first and then she became upset.

I just hope I can still do SOMETHING to save what I had done so far and maybe redo because I know I can't Plan B until I plan A right?

I feel like an idiot for letting my emotions get the better of me.
I installed a key logger and he did find out and when I went to bed he was awake and unfortunately I didn't do so great......There was enuff that I know they have been having sex A LOT

I wasn't loud or even crying but I told him that I know all about it and then I made a big mistake and I called OW.......I talked to her for an hour while he sat there and listened and I said some stuff.......

It wasn't nasty but I am not proud of myself......Should I just consider this a learning experience and try to Plan A again?

I don't have the books yet should have them in 3 weeks or so so I am flying blind here......

I have exposed as much as I can, unfortunately I told them about it too. I was having extreme verbal diarrhea and I wasn't able to stop myself as I was seeing RED. I know I screwed up but can I still save it? It was hard to do the Plan A the first time but I had gotten good at it until I saw what he was writing.

I was sure that he was going to leave me this morning but not yet. I tried to make OW see how wrong morally this was and I even told her some things about our relationship to show her that he is lying already. She was pretty quiet at first and then she became upset.

I just hope I can still do SOMETHING to save what I had done so far and maybe redo because I know I can't Plan B until I plan A right?

I feel like an idiot for letting my emotions get the better of me.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 11/27/09 12:00 PM
I don't think you did anything that bad.

Did you print out and save the evidence?
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 11/27/09 01:11 PM
i did save it and it was the best 105 bucks i ever spent
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 11/27/09 01:46 PM
Just pick up and go on. If this was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back, it wasn't a M worth saving anyway. Chances are that this one episode won't change the outcome.

However, repeated bouts of "verbal diarrhea" (cute! wink )grow progressively more likely to do damage to your chances of R.

Get a firm grip on yourself, and don't give them any more ammo. Be deep, mysterious, and very, very cunning. This is a war. Do not send the enemy your battle plan or any of your covert intel.

It's a whole new day, so get right back to Plan A'ing.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 11/27/09 04:17 PM
Thanx for the encouragement......I really do think it is worth saving.

One thing that she said to me really does hurt though and I just need to get it off my chest. My H and I had always said that if anything was to happen that he would not take the kids from me. While I was talking to her (and letting her fight HIS battles) she said that my WH would have total access to the kids and that she wouldn't stand in their way (in response to my saying that he would only be spending about 13 hours a week with them).

I responded by saying, "Yea but only until a lawyer got involved" and then she said "Oh well I can just take them from you then. I have the room and I don't mind." I was so upset that I just said out loud "Oh you want to take the kids away from me, their house, family school and friends" Her response was "Oh no there's a house that's for rent down the street from you and we will just move there"

I didn't react to that but after I hung up I asked my WH if he was going to try to take the kids and he said no. I know that there is no reason to take them away from me. I just was so upset and I let her get to me. OH I am not happy about OW right now.
Posted By: Pariah Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 11/27/09 04:23 PM
You need to show OW just how much of his income will be deducted from him during and after the divorce.

He won't be so attractive then being financial servant to you for the next 12 years.
Originally Posted By: cowqueen
Thanx for the encouragement......I really do think it is worth saving.

One thing that she said to me really does hurt though and I just need to get it off my chest. My H and I had always said that if anything was to happen that he would not take the kids from me. While I was talking to her (and letting her fight HIS battles) she said that my WH would have total access to the kids and that she wouldn't stand in their way (in response to my saying that he would only be spending about 13 hours a week with them).

I responded by saying, "Yea but only until a lawyer got involved" and then she said "Oh well I can just take them from you then. I have the room and I don't mind." I was so upset that I just said out loud "Oh you want to take the kids away from me, their house, family school and friends" Her response was "Oh no there's a house that's for rent down the street from you and we will just move there"

I didn't react to that but after I hung up I asked my WH if he was going to try to take the kids and he said no. I know that there is no reason to take them away from me. I just was so upset and I let her get to me. OH I am not happy about OW right now.


Ohhhhhhh

I'm going to bump/link a thread for you.

This IS WAR !

"The Art of War" link
cowqueen,

Don't waste your energy even thinking about OW. They are all crazy. They seem to think that it is us BS that are the bad guys in all this. They have a sense of entitlement that matches WS and know that their gravy train can halt at any time so they panic and say nasty things because that is all they can do. Most of it is lies they have told themselves or lies that WS has told them.

Honestly, don't think about it any more. Send a letter to her parents and see how she likes that.

TM
Originally Posted By: cowqueen
One thing that she said to me really does hurt though and I just need to get it off my chest. My H and I had always said that if anything was to happen that he would not take the kids from me. While I was talking to her (and letting her fight HIS battles) she said that my WH would have total access to the kids and that she wouldn't stand in their way (in response to my saying that he would only be spending about 13 hours a week with them).

I responded by saying, "Yea but only until a lawyer got involved" and then she said "Oh well I can just take them from you then. I have the room and I don't mind." I was so upset that I just said out loud "Oh you want to take the kids away from me, their house, family school and friends" Her response was "Oh no there's a house that's for rent down the street from you and we will just move there"

I didn't react to that but after I hung up I asked my WH if he was going to try to take the kids and he said no. I know that there is no reason to take them away from me. I just was so upset and I let her get to me. OH I am not happy about OW right now.


THIS is where, if you aren't careful, getting down and dirty in a nasty fight with a low class trampolean can get you in trouble. She beats you with her experience.

She doesn't give a rat's butt about your kids. She only said that to incite you and get you to love bust your husband more (further solidifying her efforts to steal him). She also wanted YOU to react more "crazy" towards her...such that, later on, SHE can play the hurt little girl that was attacked by mean vindictive wifey to your WH.

Read Pep's link.

Mr. Wondering
Quote:
Force is the control of the balance of power, in accordance with advantages.

In Plan A ... the BS restores their power to affect change. Plan A gives the BS an advantage with their intimate knowledge of their spouse's ENs.

Warfare is the Way of deception.

Deception meaning .... showing more strength than you might possess at that given time ! Hiding your weaknesses. Plan A ... not begging, crying, pleading ... standing tall and presenting a self ready to battle & fight for the marriage.

Therefore, if able, appear unable,

Plan A ... let your WS provide you with things that save your energy for future need.

if active, appear not active,

When snooping about like a squirrel searching for seeds of the affair, appear calm & serene ... Plan A snooping is done quietly & without announcing >>> "Ah-Ha ... Look what I found !". Be stealth.

if near, appear far,

Plan A ... keep your WS guessing where you are.

if far, appear near.

What seems just out of reach is sometimes more attractive. What seems a sure thing, is taken for granted.

If they have advantage, entice them;

Offer the WS goodies ... as in meet their ENs.

if they are confused, take them,

Plan A is confusing to the WS. They would prefer the BS appear ugly & unattractive in order to justify their cheating. It is confusing for the WS to see an attractive BS.

if they are substantial, prepare for them,

Plan A ... get all your ducks lined up. Legal preparations. Financial preparations. Spiritual preparations. Etc.

if they are strong, avoid them,

Plan A is not plan doormat. They can wipe their feet elsewhere, but not on your back. Accepting abuse is not an attractive trait.

if they are angry, disturb them,

LOL .... this is precicely Orchid's "reverse babble" .... The WS speaks with foggy tongue, disturb them with O's reverse babble.

if they are humble, make them haughty,

If the WS is over-confident, they become sloppy & make errors.

if they are relaxed, toil them,

Keeping an affair going is exhausting to the WS. It's like a juggling act. Throw the WS another ball to keep in the air. The affair will fall when the juggler becomes exhausted by the added effort.

if they are united, separate them.

Do not become the fool that encourages both the WS and the OP to join forces. If you act insane during Plan A, they have a common enemy to fight ~~~> YOU !

Attack where they are not prepared, go out to where they do not expect.

Do the UNexpected in Plan A. Keep the WS guessing & wondering.

This specialized warfare leads to victory, and may not be transmitted beforehand.

Do not give away your plans.... do not show the WS your books. Do not invite the WS to this site. Stealth.

Before doing battle, in the temple one calculates and will win, because many calculations were made

Plan ... you must have a Plan or you will suffer & be defeated.

before doing battle, in the temple one calculates and will not win, because few calculations were made

Don't waste time flailing about .... get organized & recruit helpers.

many calculations, victory, few calculations, no victory, then how much less so when no calculations

Do not proceed by your feelings alone. Develop your plan.

By means of these, I can observe them, beholding victory or defeat!

The BS who refuse to develop & follow a plan, are most likely to fail.


Do you understand what this is saying?
Shut off the verbal diarrhea valve and become a warrior in deed, not words ... fighting for your marriage and your family.

Let the enemy (OW and the WAYWARD) reveal their plans ... you act you do not REACT ....

Strength can be yours , if you PLAN instead of talk and respond.

Do you know what "reverse babble" is?
PS:

Any future (accidental) verbal engagements with the OW enemy ... laugh at nearly everything she says ... JUST laugh & smile and nod.

If you must speak, say ONLY innocuous things like:

"Really?"
"You don't say"
"Well, who knew?"
"Is that a fact?"
"Is there more?"

You get HER to reveal her plans/thoughts/feelings while you reveal nada/nuthin'...

You can use this same list of "pocket responses" when your WH babbles nonsense to you.
"Pocket responses" are part of your plan to get THEM to show you their weaknesses.
You think of these responses before hand and just pull one out of your pocket when necessary, so you don't lose your cool.

If you feel yourself losing your cool, you say an exit line, such as:

"Well, I've got somewhere else to be. Bye."
"Sorry to cut you off, gotta go."
"Would you excuse me?"

And you GO without saying where or when you'll be back.
You do not allow yourself verbal diarrhea ... come to the MB forum and unload any venting or worries or anything ... you dump it here and remain calm/mysterious and controlled ALWAYS when in the presence of the enemy.
Following on from Pepperband another thing you could say if you have the misfortune of speaking with OW again is:

"I'm sure you have a good reason for saying that to me, and more."

This will encourage her to keep on talking and drop herself in it.
Quote:
WH intends moving in with OW("extra bedroom") in Feb 2009


This is in your tag line.
Is this still their "plan"?

It's EXCELLENT to know their plans ahead of time.

Here's my suggestion ...

From now to a week before Christmas you plan A your butt off.

You make "home" so freaking wonderful that WH thinks he's fallen into a tub of golden love deposits.
You bake, cook, decorate, play music, dance, laugh, play cards and board games with the kids ... and in general become a woman who looks/smells/behaves like a GODDESS. lashes

Then, around Dec 14-16 ... just AFTER any school performances the kids are in .... you take his personal belongings (clothes, toiletries, etc) and PACK them up and when he gets home from work, you tell him you are in too much pain for him to remain in your "home" [say "home" as much as possible in conversations] and he needs to move out right away.

You:
"Your adultery is killing me slowly. In respect to my feelings, you need to go right now."


WH:
"What about Christmas?"

You:
"Unfortunately, the kids will be splitting Christmas from now on. You can pick them up after 2 PM Christmas morning."


Hand him the Plan B letter and get him O U T.
BEFORE the Christmas/New Year "home is where the heart is" activities.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You see, in WH's mind .... he will not be losing his family after he moves into OW's house in Feb, he'll still have his "home" (come and go as he pleases) and he'll have OW whenever he wants.

Make the reality of his plans sting like a thousand wasps have discovered his arse.

This will work like nothing else if you plan A like your family/marriage depends on it....

Understand?
PS

Are you still having sex with H?
Posted By: catperson Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 11/27/09 05:53 PM
Exactly whom have you exposed to? Have you spoken to OW's parents and siblings?
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 11/27/09 11:41 PM
Pepper- thanx for all the insight. No we are no longer having sex but that was partly my own doing. We haven't had sex for 2 months but now I know that even when we were having sex he had started having sex with her.

One of his highest EN is SF. I am not going to be able to meet that one without actually having sex. It is funny though because after I got off of the phone with her WH accused me of having sex with other men because he said I wasn't interested in sex with him so I musta got it somewhere else. I kinda let him believe it and I forget exactly what I said but he said "see you admit it". I HAVE NEVER but I am not going to make him feel better by letting him know that.

As far as the asking him to leave, I don't know about that one. My birthday is Dec 18th so maybe I will give myself a bday gift. I just feel like he WANTS me to kick him out so that's what he can tell people when they asked why he left and then he can look better. I am Plan A again but it is still really hard. He left at 630am and I thought he was going to work. He shouldn't have been home until 6pm but he came at 4pm. I said "Oh it wasn't busy?" He said "Nope I didn't go to work. I went to her house instead" I just said "OH?" and then I went for a short drive.

Cat- I exposed to MIL, SIL (although he doesn't really talk to his family), old best friend, my family and friends, our mutual friends who are like surrogate parents to us and I sent the exposure letters to their work, today I also found a friend of theirs who works with them and I let him know and I told him to tall the man whom my husband was using as an excuse for a place to be when he was actually with her.

I have a bit of additional information for his workplace where he took her and her daughter on a business trip with him(their work paid for it) Should I bring this to their attention as well? Should it be in writing again?

There is a work xmas party next weekend and one of my friends is going. She said that she is going to tell the girl who called me 2 years ago so she can spread it through there too.

My WH said that when I came to bed last night he was so scared because he thought I had a knife. I told him that I wouldn't do anything to physically harm him and I was actually offended that he would even think that of me. He is pretty resourceful too because he found the Voice activated recorder I put in the car and turned it off. I think I am going to borrow someone else's and put mine back where I had it. Then he will think that he turned off the only one.

I also have a friend whose SIL works for a PI so she is going to try to find her family for me so I can expose to them too.

On a higher note: When my WH came home my DS (6) said "Daddy, did you hear OW's evil plan? She wants to take me and brother away from mommy." WH reply was, "Don't worry buddy noone is taking you away from your home."
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 11/27/09 11:49 PM
Oh on another topic......i know I am not supposed to tell WH about this website or the books and I don't intend to. I googled my name though and it came up. I changed my name but it is still bringing it up. Anyone know how I can fix it? I don't want him to find it.
Posted By: catperson Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 11/28/09 12:01 AM
Quote:
I have a bit of additional information for his workplace where he took her and her daughter on a business trip with him(their work paid for it) Should I bring this to their attention as well? Should it be in writing again?
Yes, and yes!

But, am I right in reading that you have NOT exposed to OW's family? Why not? Is she married? I forget. If so, even if she's divorced, let him know! And tell her parents, by all means. Siblings, best friends, coworkers...anyone who will reveal the adultery for the slime that it is. They need to be shunned in public.

The next time he flaunts his affair in your face like that, do something about it. Move his clothes out of your bedroom, for starters. Give him a consequence every time he throws it in your face.
Posted By: catperson Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 11/28/09 12:02 AM
Write to the mods and tell them that you need to see if they can do anything to hide or change your name in posts. If not, you may have to delete your threads.

Buy another keylogger, one that hides itself better.
Posted By: KaylaAndy Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 11/28/09 12:05 AM
Yes - move his stuff out of the masterbedroom pronto.

He's already setting the stage for an accusation of DV against you with the knife thing.

ALWAYS wear a voice activated recorder and make sure all interactions are recorded. When he makes such an accusation against you, you can ask him to clarify - and state "I see no sudden movements, no packing around of sharp objects. What could be harmful to you except your own illicit actions?"
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 11/28/09 01:09 AM
He may want you to kick him out. It doesn't matter.

You're in this to win the war, not every skirmish. Follow Pep's most excellent plan, and stand back as reality comes crashing in on him. Your war is likely to end much sooner for separating shortly before the holidays. It's a powerful time of the year - take full advantage of it.

Quote:
Dear Dr. Harley,

My husband and I have had a difficult marriage of 7 years as well as 3 years of living together before marriage. About six months ago, he informed me that he was very close to a woman in a nearby office. He said he was unsure of how he felt for her. After a week or so of "discussing" this situation, we agreed to work on our marriage if for no other reason, our 4 year old son.

My husband promised not to talk with the other woman other than in passing, but he did nothing to improve our relationship at home. He essentially moped around the house and pouted as if he had lost his best friend. I tried showering him with affection and attention and later found out he considered it "too much."

During this time we saw a counselor. My husband did not consider himself to be at fault for his relationship with the other woman. He thought the kiss they shared to be nothing. But last week he informed me that he is in love with her and "loves" me only because I am our son's mother. I threw him out of the house.

He discussed the situation with the other woman and they decided that too many lives would be negatively affected by a relationship between them. She has asked for a transfer to a different location to eliminate their daily contact. My husband wants to come home. He is unsure how he will deal with his feelings for this woman. He doesn't know if he will ever love me as a wife again but he wants to keep his family together.

I have not a clue as to what to do. Is it possible for him to love me again? Any insight or revelation is appreciated! I look forward to your response.

M.S.

Dear M.S.,

Your approach to the problem, so far, has been quite reasonable. First, you tried to meet needs that his lover was meeting, in an effort to win him back to you. But he was in an emotional state of Withdrawal, and wouldn't let you meet his needs (that's why he said you were doing "too much"). Then you asked him to leave when you found his relationship with the woman ever-increasing in intensity. Again you did the right thing. It's what I recommend in chapter 13 ("How to Survive an Affair") of my book, His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-proof Marriage.


(emphasis mine)

So don't be afraid of asking him to leave. Do your groundwork first, just like Pep said, (woops, I typed Pepo - may start calling her that grin ) and don't be afraid to tell him to leave. The good Dr. H says so. smile
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 11/28/09 09:15 AM
I have not exposed to OW family because I don't know who they are. That is why my friend is looking in to the PI for me. She is not and has not been married but by the sounds of it she has done this a few times.

So, it was really hard last night to do Plan A because we just sat there. He is completely withdrawn now, not even talking to me at all. He has been overly playful with the kids and it is making me mad.

When he does leave, he is supposed to be coming here to watch the kids while I am at work. How can I do a Plan B and still have that?

Am I right to understand that I need to do a Plan A first? Or do I just react to the next time he flaunts it by kicking him out of the room? I guess it is just that I wasn't understanding about Plan A and maybe I was doing it AND being a DOORMAT. So I CAN react to stuff just not by yelling and crying?

I don't know how to delete my posts. Can anyone help?
Posted By: catperson Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 11/28/09 06:14 PM
You Plan A everything ELSE in your life. Look great, smell good, cook his favorite food, keep the house immaculate, invite his friends over so he has good memories of the house.

But every single thing that has anything to do with the affair - you calmly and politely and STRONGLY do not accept anything that has to do with the affair. If he stops off at her house instead of coming home for dinner, eat without him and do not leave leftovers. If he leaves a family event to see her, turn off the lights and lock the doors for when he comes home. If he uses the internet to contact OW, tell him you're saving money by canceling internet; he'll get the hint.

So, be amazing, but every chance you get to point out that you will NOT accept having an affair shoved in your face - i.e., show you have self-respect.
Posted By: catperson Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 11/28/09 06:21 PM
Hit the 'contact mods' button below.

But you have to know that you HAVE to contact OW's family and friends. You just have to. She has NO reason to give him up unless you make it hot for her. You're spinning your wheels if you don't.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 11/28/09 09:09 PM
Originally Posted By: MoooKow
I don't know how to delete my posts. Can anyone help?

Mooo,

If this is related to being found by Google, I think the problem is your very distinctive choice of names. If you choose a name that is more like an ordinary word, there is no chance that someone will sift through all the Google results that come up. Your current name isn't a proper word, so it will appear right at the top of the search engine results list.

I Googled my name, and there was so much stuff about sugar cane that I could not begin to read it all! There was nothing in the first several pages from MB, though.

Call yourself Snow White and you'll have no problems. You don't have to delete the previous threads; just ask for them to be merged under your new name.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 11/29/09 05:08 AM
Sugar- Thanx for that advice I did it so hopefully they can change it.

Cat- I DO know that I have to expose to OW family and as soon as I find them I will.

After reading the advice last night I decided that I would move him out of our room this morning. He was out getting the tire fixed. I moved his stuff in to the dinning room (we have a 2 bedroom house). I then took DS x 2 to the Santa Claus parade.

As we got to parade my cell rang and he asked if that meant I was kicking him out. I said "Not out of our house, just out of our room." He said "Where am supposed to sleep?" I said "Where you sleep is no longer my concern." He said "I can't sleep on the couch, my back is too sore." I said "Well you do what you have to." Then I thought he said "Well I am in the truck and I am going." I thought he meant he was leaving.

So, I watched the parade with my kids and family and friends and cried a bit. I went to his old best friend's house(he now only has her and her friends as he has slowly gotten rid of the rest of his own by not talking to anyone). I hung out with them for a while(Old bestfriend used to be BIL). Then I came home and he was here.

He was very angry with me when I got home because I erased his profile on our computer by accident while I was cleaning out my history (I don't even know what I did). He thought I did it on purpose. Then I had to go to the doctor's to get a needle so I said "Do you mind watching the kids for a while?" I got up and he said, "Tell WHOEVER I said HI". I said "What?" and his response was "You heard me" I put on makeup and perfume and walked out the door. He made a few comments about other men adn deleting my profile and playing games too. He was so mad. I have actually never seen him get mad without being prodded by me to a point where he can't hold it in any longer. I didn't respond I just walked out. Spent 2 hours out and came home and cooked dinner.

DS 9 is on a sleepover so DS 6 and I went to sleep in my bed to have our own sleepover. Then a couple of hours later WH CAME TO BED. I was asleep and I heard him come in. I got mad and come down here to write to you all about it.

I think tomorrow I am going to buy a lock for my room door and lock it. Maybe I will put out an air mattress as a hint that that is where he can sleep if he wishes to stay here.
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 11/29/09 05:54 AM
Quote:
I have actually never seen him get mad without being prodded by me to a point where he can't hold it in any longer.


This is a very unhealthy dynamic. It has no place in a happy marriage, or one hoping to recover from infidelity.

Forget the air mattress. His path back into your room is simple - get rid of OW and start R.

Also, you can find OW's family/associate information by doing a paid Intelius search. It will list all people she has shared an address with, and it's usually not too hard to pick out her family members.
Originally Posted By: Scotland

I think tomorrow I am going to buy a lock for my room door and lock it. Maybe I will put out an air mattress as a hint that that is where he can sleep if he wishes to stay here.


Scotland, did you see Pepperbands post about asking him to leave just before Christmas? He needs to move out. Plan A is not supposed to be a way of life, but a very short plan that lasts no longer than FOUR WEEKS. I would get a lock for the front door and get him out of there.

As far as him watching the kids while you are gone, I would find another babysitter. He shouldn't be in the house at all anymore.
Posted By: Vittoria Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 11/29/09 07:33 PM
Hi Scotland,

Don't beat yourself up about losing control earlier with the verbal diarrhea,
(I got myself into the same mess with FWH, I think it's the pure Ontario H2O over here wink lol) but from now on .... control it.

WH needs to see YOU in control of your life, your family and your M.

Like what has already been said but needs to be repeated since it is so
crucial to keeping a hold of your own sanity is ..... don't react to his irrational words.
Look at him as if he were a person from another planet, in your H's body.
Once I got on to this, it made Plan A somewhat more tolerable.

Pissin' contests are DEADLY, once you start down that path, it spirals out of control.
Your best weapon is holding onto control.

WH needs to know that you will not tolerate a third party in a M that is meant for two.

So, right now I'm not sure where you are at.
I don't see Plan A including moving H out of the bedroom.

A lock on your bedroom door is pointless, I also don't think this is the best scenario for your kids to witness.

Seems to me you Plan A your butt off, this means using the stick side too, not tolerating any words or actions that relate to OW,
then you throw him out and go to a dark Plan B.
Exactly what Pepperband said to do.
No warning, his stuff is out on the driveway.
Prepare your Plan B letter now.

Or you Plan B now, but it doesn't sound like WH would have a good imprint in his head of what your M could be.

I had to do this too, although I didn't do it right, I was in a rage .... not the best way.

Once he was gone, I felt relief, relief of not having to be subject to his crazy and hurtful words.
I had to protect myself, protect what love and fight I still had to save my M.

Although removing my FWH from our home was to protect me, it gave him a dose of what life was like, with out his family.

Side note of finding out about OW, can you look her up on Facebook and then view her friends ... and go from there, looking up their phone #'s ????
Originally Posted By: Scotland

He was very angry with me when I got home


EXCELLENT !

His anger is a GOOD thing.
You're not following his script, and that makes him uneasy and his uneasy feeling is expressed via anger.

What part of my (previous) advise do you disagree with?

I suggested a stellar Plan A for a few more weeks.
Filling every EN he'll allow you to fill (putting him off guard by making him comfortable).
Making yourself and your home as attractive as possible.

And then, like a flash - putting him O U T. (plan B)
Not just out of the bedroom, like half-assed punishment, but out of the family - where he will actually get to experience the loss of you as his wife.

And Christmas season is the most emotional-family time there is ... perfect timing for Plan B.

Perhaps you want to choose a non Marriage Builders path. Am I incorrect when I suspect you are NOT going to follow the MB plans as we suggest?

Please let me know, because I will not bother with annoying MB advice if you plan to ignore it.
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 11/30/09 01:35 AM
Pep is a very experienced Adultery Demolition Technician. I wholeheartedly recommend you follow her advice.
Posted By: MicheleG Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 11/30/09 03:42 AM
me too
Posted By: catperson Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 11/30/09 04:12 AM
Originally Posted By: Neak
Pep is a very experienced Adultery Demolition Technician. I wholeheartedly recommend you follow her advice.
He's already shown that he's afraid you are going to kick him out. That is his weakness. Expand on it.

PLAN B!

Men HATE to be alone on Christmas. It is the best possible ammunition you have, to end the affair and get him back. Start preparing for Plan B.

He will thank you later, if it shocks him out of the affair.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 11/30/09 01:03 PM
Pepper- I am NOT by any means saying that I don't want to follow anything you are saying I just don't know what I am SUPPOSED to do. I feel like I am drowning. I think I understand that my Plan right now is to Plan A till just before Christmas and then Plan B and kick him out.

What do I do when he goes to see her and doesn't hide it anymore or when I KNOW that he called her while I was at work and my kids were sitting right there. How do I Plan A and still make sure I am not a doormat? I really need some advice on that.

I hadn't been on at all yesterday so I didn't know what to do. I found out that he had called her from our home while he was watching the kids. I decided I would try to lock the door. He came up to go to bed and I wouldn't let him in. He tried for 1/2 hour and told me that he had paid for the bed and for the room and I couldn't keep him out. I responded with a "We paid for it" and he said "Yes WE did" Then I said that I would not like him to come in unless he was willing to give up his affair. He threatened to take the door off of the hinges and then he said he would just pack up his stuff and go sleep with someone else if that's what I wanted. I repeated what I said and he went downstairs. At 2am he came up and forced the door open. He simply went to sleep until he left for work this morning.

Pepper- I am confused by all of the different people on here telling me to Plan A and then kick him out or telling him to go now. I am new to the boards and I don't know who has the best advice. I am still waiting for my SAA book to come and I thought I could get some helpful advice while I was waiting. I just don't know what I am doing.

Please be patient with me as this really is against all of my instincts (that's how I know what I am doing is right).

When I found this site and read all the concepts and everything I could read, it made A LOT of sense to me and it felt like a bright light at the end of a dark tunnel. It felt like the universe had shown me exactly what I needed at a time that was crucial. I know I have not followed exactly what advice is given on MB. I am trying and I am willing to do what I have to.

I want to save my M because I know that it is worth it and I know who my WH truly is somewhere behind this alien mask. I have in the past tried to do things to help my marriage but I was flying blind. I really look up to the people on here, and I am in desperate need of help.

I am going to Plan A with the intentions of it only lasting till the week before christmas. I just need to know what I do when he tells me that he is with her, or going out with her or calling her. What do I say to THAT.

I hope someone can help me.
Originally Posted By: Scotland
Pepper- I am confused by all of the different people on here telling me to Plan A and then kick him out or telling him to go now. I am new to the boards and I don't know who has the best advice. I am still waiting for my SAA book to come and I thought I could get some helpful advice while I was waiting. I just don't know what I am doing.


Scotland, I'm new to the board also, and I felt much like you with what I thought were conflicting points of view. What I have to realize is that I must consider all points of view and apply them to my own situation. That's the true value of this board.

Some of the best responses I have read so far are ones that I did not want to face. They have caused me to check my own motives and wishes. In many ways, this forum is like Al-Anon: we come here because of the other person, but find out what we need to do is to heal ourselves.

Originally Posted By: Scotland
Please be patient with me as this really is against all of my instincts (that's how I know what I am doing is right).

When I found this site and read all the concepts and everything I could read, it made A LOT of sense to me and it felt like a bright light at the end of a dark tunnel. It felt like the universe had shown me exactly what I needed at a time that was crucial. I know I have not followed exactly what advice is given on MB. I am trying and I am willing to do what I have to.

I want to save my M because I know that it is worth it and I know who my WH truly is somewhere behind this alien mask. I have in the past tried to do things to help my marriage but I was flying blind. I really look up to the people on here, and I am in desperate need of help.

I am going to Plan A with the intentions of it only lasting till the week before christmas. I just need to know what I do when he tells me that he is with her, or going out with her or calling her. What do I say to THAT.

I hope someone can help me.

Beginner's advice here: Say or do nothing to enable the A! Acceptance is always about finding peace with something we disagree with. Plan A, Plan A, Plan A. Until it's time for Plan B.

And then Plan B with a vengeance. No quarter, no negotiation. Keep in mind, Plan B (and Plan A, for that matter) are FOR YOU. Your WS may never recover. Your marriage may not survive. But you can. And you will.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 11/30/09 01:37 PM
I also need some advice for the Plan B stage. WH had planned on watching the kids for me while I had to go to work. I could try to find some other people to watch the kids for me and rearrange my schedule so he doesn't have to. I am okay with that what I need help with is do I allow him to see the kids and what ground rules do I put in place for that? I know in Plan B that he is to have no contact with me but does that include the kids?

I have found some drafts of Plan B letter on here so I will be constructing my own over the next few days.

I am letting his work know the additional information that OW gave me about a business trip that he took her on.

He plays on a pool team and I am going to let them know tonight and I also am exposing to an online RPG that he plays. These are the only places that he talks to people and has "friends" although he isn't really close to any of them. Pepper- Do You think this is a good idea?

When he finds out about this stuff he will be angry which I am prepared for but does that still work in to Plan A. Like if he leaves before I ask him to do I still Plan A? I know I have to Plan A BEFORE I Plan B so I am just preparing myself for every possible outcome.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 11/30/09 01:40 PM
Plan A exists for you to show your husband exactly what he'll be giving up if he gives up on the marriage. Plan A does NOT include your acceptance of the affair. But Plan A does included NO relationship talk. In a true Plan A, I suppose you would not be forcing him to sleep on the couch. But you would be keeping careful notes of all the things you will (eventually) include in your plan B letter.

Plan A alone sometimes will shock the wayward out of the affair. But if it doesn't, that's what Plan B is for. And plan B is for YOU--Plan A involves only your GIVER and Dr. Harley says most women only have about 3-4 weeks in them for this type of stuff. When you feel you are at the end of your rope, that's the time for Plan B. And plan B is for YOU--to remove yourself from your husband's abuse. A side benefit of Plan B is that it forces the affair partner to now fulfill ALL your WH's ENs and often, that person fails miserably and it falls apart.

Here's where I am with this forum. I had to back away for about a week or two, because I realized so much of the advice I was getting was being filtered through posters' personal experience. I finally decided that I needed to talk to a professional and I made an appointment with Steve. He spent over an hour on the phone with me and helped me figure out my next step. To further illustrate how these well-meaning posters can sometimes not help, I did post a recap of my conversation with Steve on my thread and several people proceeded to pick it apart. But that didn't affect me as I place my trust and confidence in a highly trained professional for which I paid good money.

If you have the funds, I really recommend a call to the MB coaches. You can accomplish with them in one short hour, what months of regular MC will NOT accomplish.

Good luck.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 11/30/09 01:43 PM
Scotland, you don't go into Plan B, until you have all your ducks in a row. Until then, stick with Plan A. The *last* communication you have with him will be your Plan B letter.

Yes, he can see the kids. It's arrangned either through the letter or through your intermediary. What he does not get in this arrangement is YOU, in any way shape or form. Your Plan B letter should included a detailed way for him to be able to come home to you. That's vital. He has to know there's a path home but he also has to know he must exactly do as you say or he can't come home.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 11/30/09 01:51 PM
I had thought about him still coming here to watch the kids for me and me just going out one door as he came in the other but I know that wouldn't work. I might just have to quit my job or drastically change when I work so as not to need a sitter at all. I work for slightly above minimum wage and cannot afford to pay a sitter. I don't really have anyone else who can watch the kids for me. Maybe I can make a visitation plan for him. Can he have COMPLETE access to him where he can see him whenever HE wants. I also don't know where to find an IM person. He does have an old friend that I would be ok with talking to but I don't think he would agree to anyone. I really don't know where to go from here.
Posted By: Vittoria Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 11/30/09 02:24 PM
Scotland, I'm on my way to work so this will be quick.
I know what you mean by 'what do I do' meaning you are looking for specific actions to take, I quite often wanted the forum in my side pocket guiding me.

This is from the link that Pep gave, The Art of War.
This is a part of a post on that thread, the last 4 numbers are 4970 of this specific post. It will be helpful to read the whole thing.

For now, I hope it answers your question of the phone conversations.

"Mrs.W and OM would occassionally talk on the phone right in front of me. I occassionally demonstrated reasonable and understandable anger and frustration at such; however, occassionally I did not. Their conversations in front of me were designed by them to be of a "we're just friends" nature so I would join in the banter. I would engage the infidels in a three way conversation to frustrate THEM, to divide THEM. I don't recall anything I actually said. I just was delivering the message to OM that I was there and he was NOT. (remember OM was 750 miles away). OM no longer had unfettered access to my wife."

I agree with OurHouse that you should give the Harley's a ring.
I think that this board is a valuable tool and you have access to this 24/7.
There are many experienced people here.

Go with Pep's plan of keeping up a Plan A, then Plan B.

I understand that you are confused. Breathe and regroup.

p.s. if WH has his own cell phone and he so boldly speaks to OW in front of you,
accidently drop that phone in the dishwater. Oops!
Interrupt his conversations with OW, keep reminding him that he is committing adultery by having a third party in the M, and that this hurtful to his family etc .... get the idea.
Quote:
It is funny though because after I got off of the phone with her WH accused me of having sex with other men because he said I wasn't interested in sex with him so I musta got it somewhere else. I kinda let him believe it and I forget exactly what I said but he said "see you admit it". I HAVE NEVER but I am not going to make him feel better by letting him know that.


ST,

Don't pretend to him that you might be 'dating' too.

You are a believer in marriage and therefore would never consider being unfaithful.

He needs to know this, especially as he he flaunts his A in front of you and your children's faces.

Do your kids understand what's going on? Do they know how very wrong it is for their father to be cheating?

Here's a Do and Don't Do list that will help you out..

DOs

1. Act Happy
2. Get a life (new activities, etc.)
3. repeat over and over..."I will make it"
4. Actively LISTEN....keep conversations at "to the point...small talk" ...don't blow it up beyond the waywards current comfort zone
5. Tend to Agree (Thank you for your truthfulness, It seems that way, you have a point)
6. Expand your social relationships (Being especially aware of your own vulnerability and keeping sharing and time with opposite sex relationships to an absolute minimum)
7. Get sexy (gym, new clothes, etc)
8. Focus on your strengths and Positives...don't put yourself down verbally or constantly go over what you did wrong
9. Accept Uncertainty (Do your best today and let God take care of tommorrow)

DON'Ts

1. Repeatedly say "I love you"
2. Ask questions that don't have answers yet
3. Criticize, complain, whine or nag
4. Say, "I've changed"....allow the wayward spouse to simply judge your actions
5. Argue, Reason or Plead
6. Don't get family or friends overly involved in recovery (notice I said "in recovery", EXPOSURE to bust up an active affair IS ESSENTIAL and EXPOSURE to the OP's spouse is an absolute MUST)
7. Act helpless or depressed
8. Discuss morality, invoke God or Dr. Laura type babble
9. Suggest marital counseling (must be the waywards idea)
10. Tell them continually "we need to work on the relationship"
11. GIVE UP
Plan A is also a time to negotiate a return to the M WITHOUT the OW. What control do you have over his actions? None. He can do what he wants...to a certain degree. You let him know his behavior is not acceptable in your marriage. He in turn is trying to negotiate a way to have both of you...you let him know this is not acceptable.

How do you do this? With love and respect...sure, he's not showing you love and respect, so how do you show someone love and respect when they are not showing you the same? With maturity, knowledge, and goddessness.

When he comes home and tells you he has spent the day with the OW, you say to him, "I cannot accept a marriage where you have a girlfriend, what would you like for dinner? How else was your day?" Yes, it is hard. You are hurt and in pain. You can do this for the short term. Everytime he pushes the OW in your face, you gently wipe your face off (metaphorically speaking) and let him know there is no place in your M for an OW.
You don't yell, or move to action. You don't give the situation any of your energy except to let him know you will not accept a M with her (or anyone else) in it. He's looking for a fight, an excuse to run back to her and say to her..."My W is horrible, all we ever do is fight..."

The next time he accuses you of running off to another man, do not let that go...let him know you believe in a M between 2 people only, and will not accept any less. Nearly everything he says to you is an opportunity to express your willingness to work on the M when he has gotten rid of the OW.

BUT, do not beat him with it, he knows this, and only needs to be told when he is trying to get you angry again.

Please do not give her any of your energy. She is an annoying fly, a pest, an inconvenience, a distraction from the hard work of M.

And please reconsider a strong Plan A. Please nurture and love your H by allowing him back in your bed. Plan B should be a shock, not a slow death of the M. Yes, Plan A seems counter-intuitive, that's why so many will fall down the Plan D route, but we know otherwise.

How do you know what to do? Look deep in your heart and follow the advice hear that your heart is telling you to follow...

Read all the articles on here until the books arrive, especially the letters. Plan A is KEY. Plan B happens later to save your love, but right now, give as much as you can without losing all your love.
Originally Posted By: Scotland
I had thought about him still coming here to watch the kids for me and me just going out one door as he came in the other but I know that wouldn't work. I might just have to quit my job or drastically change when I work so as not to need a sitter at all. I work for slightly above minimum wage and cannot afford to pay a sitter. I don't really have anyone else who can watch the kids for me. Maybe I can make a visitation plan for him. Can he have COMPLETE access to him where he can see him whenever HE wants. I also don't know where to find an IM person. He does have an old friend that I would be ok with talking to but I don't think he would agree to anyone. I really don't know where to go from here.


You're going to have to think through all of this...get your ducks in a row before you go to Plan B. You will have to come up w/ a schedule for when he can see the children. And see a lawyer about not allowing him to bring his affair partner around your children.

Most WS HATE Plan B and will do all they can to get you to end it. If he calls you, you let it go to your answering machine. If it is a question about the kids...you take your time replying to him....AND you email him back using as few words as possible...yes or no. If he goes through your IM, you will reply much faster. You train him.

Also, it's more important that YOU trust your IM, than HE does. You need someone who will filter his end of the conversation for you. Just give you the necessary facts minus any ugliness or pain.

Another thought. People on the boards often suggest very convoluted Plan B letters. Why not go with something similar to Dr. Harley's suggestion in "Surviving An Affair"?
Quote:
My Dear Sue,
I apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affair with Greg possible. I foolishly pursued my career without understanding my responsibility to meet your most important emotional needs. I was not there for you when you needed me most, and we are now both suffering for my mistake.

I am willing to avoid the mistakes I've made in the past and create a new life for both of us that meet your needs. But I cannot do that until you end your relationship with Greg once and for all.

Until then, I will avoid seeing you or talking to you. I will also not be able to help you financially. Our friends Jane and Paul have agreed to help make arrangements for you to visit the children whenever you would like. But I will not be here when you visit. If you want to communicate about the children or any other matter, it will have to be through Jane and Paul.

I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you this way. You must know about the suffering I have endured because of your relationship with Greg, and I simply cannot be with you any longer, knowing that you are with him. I still love you but I cannot see you under these conditions.

As soon as you are willing to permanently separate from Greg and are willing to follow the measures that were suggested to ensure total separation, I will be willing to discuss our future together.

I want us to be able to rebuild our marriage someday. I want us to be able to meet each other's emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We need to build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then there will never again be a reason for us to separate. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you as my best friend.

I loved you when we married and I continue to love you right up to this day. I just cannot be with you or help you as long as you are seeing Greg.

With my love,
Jon
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 11/30/09 03:17 PM
I am not pretending that I am dating, I just am not telling him where i go every second like I used to. I am wearing makeup and dressing up just to go to the doctor's. I told him many times that I have never cheated and that I never would. I also told him that I believe in marriage and not divorce.

He thinks that I am going out with other guys when in reality it is nothing of the sort.

My kids totally understand what is going on and that what he is doing is wrong. I have told them that it is wrong and that it hurts a lot of people and that I want them to know that one day when they are married they are not supposed to do this to their family.


OW and WH didn't talk about anything in particular his side being mostly short one worded answers and the kids didn't even notice he was on the phone. I was at work. He hasn't started talking to her n front of me yet but I am expecting that to start soon.

Thanx for the post of the letter it is a good start.

I wanted the kids to have access to him totally by telling him that he could call the house and i would let them call and he could tell them that he was coming to see them. Is that the right thing to do?
Quote:
I wanted the kids to have access to him totally by telling him that he could call the house and i would let them call


Good. You might want to consider getting them cell phones so they can call you whenever they are away from you, and so that their dad can call them directly.

Quote:
and he could tell them that he was coming to see them. Is that the right thing to do?


During Plan B, he should no longer have access to the family home. As far as visitation goes, it is best to follow a schedule. That doesn't mean you can't be flexible though.
Quote:
I am wearing makeup and dressing up just to go to the doctor's.


Don't just "dress up" for going out...look GOOD all the time...especially when he's around.

Buy yourself some pretty new sleepwear too.
Hang in there.

Plan A is hard.
Plan B is hard.

But, be advised , once you reach the RECOVERY stage, recovery is the hardest one yet ! (no one believes this when they are in plan A or B, but that's OK)

My H had a 2 year sexual/romantic affair.
We have been recovered nearly 14 years (December is our D day month)

You will make mistakes.
But you will make fewer mistakes than your WH if you stick to a plan.

For now, in Plan A - be as attractive as possible.

If WH does something outrageous, stick to responses that reflect how HURT you are and avoid all responses that are insulting.

Examples:

YOU are a liar and a cheat.
I'm so hurt by what you are doing right now.

You can't live here and screw OW whenever you want.
Let's do some family time, what is your schedule like?

Are you texting OW right now?
Say nothing. Walk up to him and rub his neck. Put your other hand over the phone. Then say "Not now."

Remember, you can always say:
I'm so hurt by what you are doing right now.
and this remark is not a love buster

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Preparing for Plan B all the while.

Things to think about.
Contact an attorney. Get a free consultation if possible.
Find out what your legal recourses are in your state regarding support if you separate.
Do NOT file for divorce unless you want to be divorced.

Finances must be secured BEFORE plan B.
If you can, get your own credit card, so the paper trail of money he spends vs money you spend is clear and traceable.

Very important you begin a daily journal.
Put dates times places of anything that happens.
Who
What
Where
What time
And put certain remarks in quotes, such as:
H said he would "keep making car payments" once he moved out.
Do not "vent feelings" in your journal (vent here on MB)

There is more to prep, but start with these basics.

Part of Plan A is to look good.
So do whatever you can to make yourself delicious.
Rest
Relax
Have as much fun time with the kids as possible - all under WH's nose.

If you are tempted with the verbal diarrhea, remove yourself and go for a walk or do something outside of your WH's view.

Plan A will exhaust you - which is why it must be for a limited period of time.
Remember this is a strategy - temporary and NOT forever, so keep that in mind when your "taker" wants to kick some butt and stop your "giver" from doing a stellar plan A.

I'm going to be out of town for a few days.
I wish you strength and wisdom.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 11/30/09 03:58 PM
Thank you. I have just been getting our IM in place so I am one step closer.

Thanx for the examples of what to say because my Taker seems to have my tongue right now and my Giver doesn't know what to say so this will help. I think I have been using my Taker for a long time and forgot where to find my Giver.

He told me that when he first moves out we will keep the finances the same. Should I separate them? I will get my own bank account and try to get my own Credit card (bad credit). I need to get bills in my name too and change the mortgage to the new account although I cannot afford to have it just on my own. My mortgage is actually less than a rental would be so I am desperately trying to keep it.

We have a mortgage life Insurance so that if one of us dies the house would be paid for so I thought I could keep his name on the house for those reasons.

Next Step, talk to a lawyer and find out my rights.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 11/30/09 04:38 PM
I'm not sure you have to completely separate your finances in a Plan B. In fact, the only things you should be hearing about from your IM should be about the kids or finances. A good IM will NOT pass along what WH is thinking, feeling, etc. Plan B is to shield you from all of that. Set up a joint account for all your bills; have WH deposit $$$ to cover housing, food, kids, etc, in there.
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 11/30/09 04:47 PM
Ask him back into the bedroom. Giving him a foretaste of Plan B isn't in your best interests. If he asks you for an explanation, reverse babble. He doesn't make sense - why should you? laugh "I really missed having you in the room, and I'm looking forward to when we can be a real family again." (Said with a bright smile.)

You can meet some of his needs for SF without actually doing the deed. Send him flirty texts or emails, let him know how attractive he is to you. Maybe he can catch a little peek of skin every now and again. All those things are part of meeting the SF need, while packing in the Admiration units, too.

As you think about the babysitting situation, pretend you are divorced and living in separate houses. You don't want him in your house at all. What will divorce look like, in reality? This is what you want to resemble, as closely as possible.

Your boys are old enough to walk out to the car - just have them ready to go when he gets there and send them out the door.

That would be a better first option, and looking for a sitter or quitting your job are further down the list.

This is just my own opinion, but I wouldn't worry about getting all the utilities in your name yet. If he left and a month or two went by, that would probably be a better time for a more drastic change. Plus, if you split the utilities ahead of time, it could tip your hand. Just have everything ready so you can do that if you need to.


Get your own bank account at the very minimum. A credit card is optional; you can totally survive without it.

Calling the Harleys is a great idea. Why not at least call the counseling office and see if they have any financial options that would fit your circumstances?

Prepare for Plan B, but focus on Plan A. What can you do today to show what an awesome wife you are? What can you appreciate about your WH? Reach as far back into the past as you need to.

What do you think his top 3 needs are? Hint: they are very likely to include SF, Admiration, and Domestic Support. How can you show him that you're going to be able to meet those needs for him?

If you run short on ideas, pop back on here and we can help.
Posted By: Lexxxy Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 11/30/09 04:49 PM
Have a very specific visitation schedule when you get to Plan B.
So figure out what you have to with your job. If it works for him to watch them during your evening hours -- where can he do that (not at HOME).

When you talk to the attorney -- find out if you are able to keep OW away from your children. Could you file a restraining order against her based on her comments?

When he is out, he will not be allowed to come and go on a whim. No dropping by, no unscheduled visits, no access to the HOME.

For the next 3 weeks -- be the girl he fell in love with. Flirt with him, court him.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 11/30/09 05:01 PM
Okay. I am going to do these things ASAP.

Everyone keeps talking about reverse babble and I was wondering if someone has the link to that?

I never thought about the text and emails(DUH). I did buy myself a new PJ and it shows off my ASSETS and he actually said "Is there some reason you are flashing our children?" and my response was "What? Oh, it is just hot in here."

As far as his top 3 EN's I do think they are SF Domestic support and as long as me thinking he is funny, then admiration.

So it ok to tell him that I find him attractive and stuff like that?

Every few days I kissed him on the check before I went to bed but a couple of times he pulled away. Should it be overt like that or should I be more subtle? I was just so used to being one way that when he withdrew I did too and now I don't know what will push him away faster and what will keep him guessing.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 11/30/09 05:01 PM
Lexxy- should the visitation schedule be written in the Plan B letter since I will have no further contact with him?
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 11/30/09 05:08 PM
What I recommend is having one or more Plan B addendums with the additional information laid out clearly. That way he gets the info, but it doesn't clutter up your letter.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 11/30/09 05:10 PM
sounds great
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 11/30/09 05:10 PM
As far as the kissing, I think everybody develops their own approach. Mine was the drive-by. I'd be there and gone before he had a chance to react, and especially to reject. Done flirtatiously and quickly, with no expectation (which he would see as pressure) to reciprocate, it worked great for me.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/01/09 01:26 AM
Well, I was ready to Plan A like crazy. The kids and I decorated the house for Xmas. I made dinner and it was ready as soon as he walked in the door. I made sure I did my hair up nice and got into my asset showing PJ's. I stuck the smile on, showed concern when he said that his back was sore, played with the kids and moved his stuff back in to the room.

Then about an hour after he came home he said he was going upstairs to watch the game and the kids followed leaving me alone and stumped as to what to do. I was throwing a little pitty party thinking that I hadn't done enuff and now it was too late. That's when a friend called.

She's one of those no none sense kinda girls and I told her what I was feeling like and she said that maybe I should write myself the reasons I want to save my M so when I feel like this I can remember what I want in the end. It's funny for her to say that because she also says if it were her he'd have been gone long ago. This is what friends are for I guess, to give you a kick in the pants when you need it.

The kids came down just now and said "Mommy can you tuck us in? Daddy fell asleep." So all the pity party was for nothing he had just been tired. I guess that's why I should wait to react to things until I have all of the details.

On another note, i did text message him but I noticed his phone was at home charging. I decided I would write him an email too. I was sitting here when he got it and I am not even sure he read it. I will keep trying I am not giving up that easily.
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/01/09 01:57 AM
When you have such peaceful opportunities, pamper yourself.

His on-again off-again behavior is actually a good thing. It shows he's in a state of conflict, which is miles better than a state of withdrawal. (See Dr. H's articles on the 3 states of intimacy, or something like that. Withdrawal, Conflict, and Intimacy. Though not speaking specifically of A's, it's good info.)

Sounds like you had a good Plan A evening. The main point is not whether or not he chooses to enjoy it with you, although it's nice if he does. The point is to show him what he is and will be missing by separating himself from you and the kids.

Great job!

What yummy dish can you cook for supper tomorrow?
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/01/09 02:18 AM
Good advice. I am thinking about dinner 2morrow and I was gonna try a new recipe. Fingers Crossed it doesn't cause food poisoning hehehehehe.

Roller coaster ride of emotions is not fun but I need to get through this to make it I guess.

My work sitch and Plan B letter draft are done as well as IM in place. WOW I accomplished a lot for my Plans today.

I contacted a lawyer to find out what I have to do.

Can anyone suggest as an addendum what it is that I am supposed to write about what I need him to do before he can break the NC with me? I know I have to tell him that he has to end his affair and have NC with her FOREVER. He would have to no longer work where he does now (unless she leaves first). He would have to WANT to work on the marriage. Anything else?
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/01/09 02:35 AM
I would quantify the WANT to work on the marriage bit. Counseling with the Harleys? Marriage Builders weekend with one year followup?
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/01/09 03:02 AM
Your PBL doesn't have to contain every single boundary you're going to need. The details can come later.

There are some good (short!) sample PBL's you can look at and draw from. Also, feel free to post your letter here for advice.
Posted By: not2fun Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/01/09 04:19 AM
Originally Posted By: Neak
The main point is not whether or not he chooses to enjoy it with you, although it's nice if he does. The point is to show him what he is and will be missing by separating himself from you and the kids.


Neak's right about this. Chances are most of the time he WON'T enjoy whatever Plan A stuff you do, because what you are doing in causing him conflict. Some of my best direct hits during Plan A left my WH confused, annoyed, and sometimes even PO'ed. Why??? Because he knew he was screwing up MAJORLY!!!....

Also, as far as the daycare sitch, you could always look for a new job. One that you could bring your kids to, like a daycare center, or the YMCA, or a city community center. Commmunity college's also have daycare centers for their students. They pay you AND you can bring your kids with you on the job....

Also, look into some employment that daycare is a perk. I know Bank of America pays for their employee's daycare.....

just a suggestion....

(and yes, open your own bank account now and start siphoning money into it.....and apply for a CC anyway...even if you do have bad credit, you may get one with a low balance, but you need to build up that credit somehow....)


not2fun
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/02/09 02:32 AM
Well, let's catch up on what happened today (again since he came downstairs and I had to close my other window).

First, around 430pm today he called me from work and I said "Hello". He said "I know you are....Hello?" and i said again "Hello" and he said "Who is this?" I said "It's me. Did you dial the wrong number?" It seemed like maybe he checked for a second. Then he said "Hello?" and I said "Hi is there something wrong with the phone?" He said "No, you just didn't sound like you. Maybe it's just the phone." I said "Well, I am in the kitchen and it is echoing." He said "Yea, maybe that's it. So did the boys go to school ok?" I said "Yea and they had a great day" He said "OK well that's ALL that I called for" and I said "OK Bye" I think it threw him off because I believe he was actually trying to call OW and dialed home by mistake.

He got home and was acting a bit like himself though. Then he commented on how I cleaned the house really well today so who helped? I told him I was just energetic. Then he asked "So who did you have over then?" I said "What do you mean?" He didn't answer and then I said "I believe in a marriage that only has 2 people, your dinner is in the oven"

He spent a couple of hours down here and I made sure to put on my SHOW. I played and joked with the kids. And when he played with the kids he looked at me too. I made sure I was smiling and that I laughed out loud. Then a couple of times I caught him looking at me. I think he got uncomfortable with his feelings because then he decided he was going to go to bed to watch the rest of the hockey game.

That was where we were at until he came downstairs and I was typing away and closed it. He looked at my screen on the way by but it was on facebook. As long as you all are telling me that I am doing the right things and I should expect this out of him and they are good signs then I have HOPE.

On another note. I faxed another exposure letter to his work with the additional info on the fact that he took OW and her daughter with him on a training trip. I also certified mailed the new letter to the same 4 people again. OW let that one slip.

I am working on finding OW mother and brother but I have to wait until my friend talkes to a fellow coworker of theirs on Saturday.
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/02/09 03:19 AM
Yep, you're doing good! I also think you're right and he was trying to call her. Those poor widdle aliens get SO CONFUSED when they try to juggle too many mens or womens! You handled that superbly, as well.

This is going to get exhausting for him as he continues his juggling game. Let home be his refuge, and the OW the one harping at him for not spending enough time with her, and being jealous of you, nagging him about stuff, etc.

Be prepared for some major bumps in the road when they find out about the exposure. He will probably say he's done, that he was just thinking about picking you, and now he's not and you're horrible besides! Ride it out - when he's in his right mind he'll see things differently.

Keep it up!
I don't want to hijack this thread, but the topic fits...

I installed a keylogger on the WW's laptop. Now that we're in Plan B and she's taken her computer with her, should I stop spying on her, or is it still "fair" to see what her frame of mind is?
Posted By: catperson Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/02/09 04:31 AM
Plan B means NO CONTACT. You are NOT to know anything she is doing, not even blowing her nose. Plan B is for YOU to stop thinking about HER.
Scotland,

Just wanted to say you're doing great!

Keep it up! smile
Originally Posted By: catperson
Plan B means NO CONTACT. You are NOT to know anything she is doing, not even blowing her nose. Plan B is for YOU to stop thinking about HER.


Got it. Loud and clear. Thank you, ma'am! smile
Fred, the goal of Plan B is for you to have time for you to preserve what love you have left for your spouse by being completely free of the drama.

What do you think is the answer?
Originally Posted By: Barnboy
Fred, the goal of Plan B is for you to have time for you to preserve what love you have left for your spouse by being completely free of the drama.

What do you think is the answer?


Catperson beat you to it, Barnboy. I'm very good at following "suggestions.:

Dark is dark. No more snooping.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/02/09 01:26 PM
Thanx for the encouragement.....Spending another day getting my ducks in a row laugh
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/02/09 03:10 PM
Well, I am a little angry but not really surprised. He has now made it so I can no longer access Ebay Account, Paypal and his credit card (which he always said that is OURS).

I tried to buy a camera because our camera doesn't charge anymore. Well I guess he showed me.

Oh well I am gonna just have to learn from this what else he is going to do. Wow these Aliens sure are WAY different from the people we think we knew.
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/02/09 03:56 PM
Don't stress the small stuff. Just make your own path around his obstacles.

Fred, when it comes time for R, you'll want to use the keylogger again, so don't use it, but don't give it up, either.
Posted By: catperson Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/02/09 03:59 PM
Scotland, he doesn't have the ability to take the money out of your bank accounts without your permission, does he?
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/02/09 04:01 PM
Neak, thanx I was just a little upset because I was trying to buy a camera as we had already agreed I could get a new one. Then I was turned down.

Oh well, I think it is because I used his credit card to get the key logger and pay for intelius (which BTW was USELESS).

Going to do some more cleaning up now and at least I have a bit of a break because I go to work tonight wooooohooooo
Originally Posted By: Scotland
Oh well, I think it is because I used his credit card to get the key logger and pay for intelius (which BTW was USELESS).


That's been my experience, too. And they seem to be the only game in (Internet) town, too.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/03/09 06:05 AM
how do i deal with the anger that comes from the exposing? Doesn't exposing go against Plan A?

I know I need to expose and I have to everyone I can think of with exception of her family only because I have been unsuccessful at finding them. Even had a PI tell me to just get a Lawyer and a separation and forget about him. Of course I said "thanks for your advice" and hung up.

I exposed to family and friends, their work and even an online RPG game that my WH plays all of the time (he now changed the password on that too I bet he was ticked off when he found out)
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/03/09 06:12 AM
I have to wait until their work party on Saturday (which I believe WH will be attending with OW) for a friend of mine to talk to the girl who called me 2 years ago and ask her to call me and talk to me about what she sees at work etc.
Originally Posted By: Scotland
how do i deal with the anger that comes from the exposing? Doesn't exposing go against Plan A?

Exposing the A is part of Plan A. It's part of the "stick" portion of the carrot and the stick.

Originally Posted By: Scotland
I know I need to expose and I have to everyone I can think of with exception of her family only because I have been unsuccessful at finding them. Even had a PI tell me to just get a Lawyer and a separation and forget about him. Of course I said "thanks for your advice" and hung up.

Not the PI's job. I've had people tell me the same thing.

Originally Posted By: Scotland
I exposed to family and friends, their work and even an online RPG game that my WH plays all of the time (he now changed the password on that too I bet he was ticked off when he found out)

ROFL!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/03/09 01:23 PM
Still Plan A-ing like crazy. I really hope this works. I have my fingers and toes crossed but sometimes I just feel like it is a lost cause. Is that normal? I know that this is a long process and I have read enough on here to know that I am actually on the hardest part.

I think I would feel a bit better if he actually WANTED to work on it but he says there is nothing there. Sometimes when I read the articles and letters I feel like they aren't talking to me because they always talk about people who are both willing to work at it.

I guess that's why I have to go into a dark Plan B, but I have a question too.

I was reading something Harley wrote about NOT separating because it actually is worse. I got a bit confused because if I am planning on it, is that the best choice?

Deep down it seems like it, but these doubts creep in.

Most of the people I talk to have said he will come back eventually when he realizes what he has done but I have one friend who said she doesn't think he would because he is too stubborn. That little doubt was planted in my head and now I am losing a bit of HOPE and diving right into FEAR and WORRY.

Sorry but I just need a little boost.
Exposure WORKS. Look at my signature.

Yes, WH was beyond MAD. I exposed to our friends, some of his co-workers, my family, his family, the HR at both his jobs, some people on Facebook including one of WH's family members.

He raged for days and days. He continually told me he was f*** off everyone. He continually told me to go sleep with someone else. He verbally abused me. He refused to sleep in the same bed with me. He messed up our D's mind. He destroyed some things in our house - I had to threaten to report the police on him. He threatened suicide (I found out much later on that he never really meant this). All because he wanted me to back off and let him carry on with his As.

I had to stay firm. I had to become a broken record - "your actions caused this" and change the subject or leave the room. Sometimes I even had to leave the house for a short while because I was overwhelmed by his anger and behaviors.

Several people here on MB felt that what he was doing was beyond the norm for a WS. As it turns out, he has always had an addictive personality, and that for years I had been allowing him to push my boundaries back.

Just stay strong. Your H's anger means exposure is working! If he was not reacting at all, you'd have to be worried.
Posted By: catperson Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/03/09 01:55 PM
You know what your number one tool is? Losing your fear. Realizing that this is ALL in God's hands, you have NO control, you WILL survive without him if you have to (you did before him, didn't you?).

Once you reach that point, and stop acting out of fear of ticking him off, YOU will have all the power. Because the ONE thing he has on you - deciding whether to 'favor' you with his presence - will no longer be an issue.

And, yes, you are supposed to make him angry by exposing. He would never have the shock he needs to make a decision without it. Anger means your exposure is working.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/03/09 02:47 PM
His anger isn't really coming out right now it is more subtle like in the silent treatments, the avoiding me and changing passwords to block me out of things. I know it isn't a healthy way for him to act but it is what he is doing.

I know I CAN survive without him, I just don't WANT to. If someone could tell me that I would have to deal with this for x number of years than I would get through. I know that may sound a bit silly but that is what I am feeling right now and I figure that if I am honest about my feelings on here maybe someone else will see that they are not alone.

Feeling alone is the hardest part especially when EVERYONE in my real life all say they would not do this. They would just kick him out and move on. I even have people telling me to just go find someone else. I am NOT doing that but how can they even think that way? Do they not feel anything for their spouses? Well, I guess that is enough sadness for today. Cleaning house outta stuff that is not needed anymore. laugh

Thanx again for everything, everyone.
Originally Posted By: Scotland
Feeling alone is the hardest part especially when EVERYONE in my real life all say they would not do this. They would just kick him out and move on. I even have people telling me to just go find someone else. I am NOT doing that but how can they even think that way? Do they not feel anything for their spouses?


Outside of my family, everyone else told me the same thing. I realized they didn't understand what I was going through. That they would never understand unless they were in my shoes. A good friend repeatedly asked me: "Are you SURE you want to do this? Are you SURE?" A typical response from many was "Wow! You are one strong woman."

Anyway, I'm not sure what your H's reactions mean, but the fact that he is reacting at all I think is still a good sign. Hope vets can give perspective on this.
Posted By: catperson Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/03/09 03:53 PM
Quote:
If someone could tell me that I would have to deal with this for x number of years than I would get through.
But this is the thought process I'm trying to get you to look at. You're acting like what YOU do can change what HE does. Yes, that's kind of the ethereal spirit behind MB, but it's not the tangible one.

The tangible spirit here is that, once you've been dealt such a blow, the #1 thing you can do, from this day forward, is say to yourself "Today, I start living for myself. I build my own integrity. I improve myself. I learn to love myself. Once I accomplish that, if he/she comes back, it's an added bonus, because I'll be ready to move forward with my life in a better way. But if he/she doesn't, I'm still ok, because look at all I've done for myself."
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/03/09 06:00 PM
As to your timeline, if you follow the MB plans, and after you have been in Plan B for 2 years he still shows no signs of coming back, THAT is when you give up hope and let go at last. (This in no way negates cat's excellent advice to focus on yourself, and the things you can control.)

Some people give up sooner and that's their choice. I have no argument with that. But if you follow Dr. H's ideal scenario, he says nearly all A's end within 2 years.

You have LOTS AND LOTS of hope. The blacker it looks, the more God is working on your behalf in ways you may not see for many months.

If you follow Pepo's advice to go to Plan B right before Christmas, I see no harm in waiting till then to complete your exposure, even if you find the OW's info before then. If you absolutely can't dig up any info on her let me know and I may be able to help.

Anger and Plan A see each other pretty regularly, actually. Since even the nice things you do will often anger a WS, there's plenty of anger. What you don't want to do is make them angry through LB's. That is what you need to avoid, not the anger itself.

As far as a separation, it is risky, yes. However, when you balance the risk of a separation and chance of recovery (around 80% success with MB methods) versus the risk from staying together too long and you losing all love for your WH and any desire to recover (this risk goes up every single day he slashes away at you with the pain of his betrayal), your odds are far better with separating in Plan B.

Additionally, staying too long will exhaust you physically and mentally, putting you in a more precarious position entering recovery. I can tell you firsthand how hard it is to try and recover from this after pushing to the very limits of endurance. It is something I would spare anyone willing to listen.

Save yourself a reserve. You're very likely to need it.;)
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/03/09 09:09 PM
Thanx Neak I think i understand a little better now. I know that Plan A and Plan B are supposed to be for me and I guess I kinda lost sight of that.

It is hard sometimes with my family and friends because I feel like I have to constantly defend my position over and over again instead of them just accepting that this is what I am trying to do and this is what in my HEART feels right. I was so lost before I found MB and I feel like it was a HUGE light shone on my sitch.

I am gonna do my best and that's all I can ask of myself I guess. BTW my books arrived today so I will be reading whenever WH is not around. laugh
Posted By: catperson Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/03/09 10:04 PM
Quote:
I will be reading whenever WH is not around
Why are you hiding it from him?
Yes, Scotland, let your WH know you want to save your M.
Posted By: MicheleG Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/04/09 03:18 AM
Just don't tell him of this forum.
Originally Posted By: Scotland


Feeling alone is the hardest part especially when EVERYONE in my real life all say they would not do this. They would just kick him out and move on. I even have people telling me to just go find someone else.


Typical script for anyone who has NOT actually experienced this themselves. Ask the doubters to give you a hug and keep you in their hearts.

Hang in there, I think you're doing GREAT!

At the very least, you are proving to yourself just how strong and principled you are under duress. It's "easy" to be strong when things are going your way.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/04/09 06:13 AM
okay I guess I will read it while he is around. I was having a bad day and then I kept thinking about what I want to accomplish and that I need to feel better. I think it is because I am having a hard time sleeping but I am getting better at that too.

Every new thing that happens reopens the wound. I now see how Plan A really can't be long term because his alien is a bad one compared to the H I used to know.

He is really trying to avoid me and now he is trying to be extra good with the kids including baking brownies with them on Sunday which of course I praised and said they tasted amazing when he said they were gross.

He is sleeping further and further away from me too I think he is going to fall off soon (teehee) and I realized that he sleeps close when he is comfortable with what is going on and things are going as planned and moving away when they aren't to his liking.

I am taking time reacting to things that I find out too.

Enough writing for today. Off to bed laugh
Posted By: Vittoria Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/04/09 02:30 PM
All of the feelings that you talk about while in this frustrating and crazy Plan A,
I felt them too, and from what I've read from others, they are par for the course.

The trick is to remain in control of your actions/reactions.

I was also questioned by some GF's, on whether or not I was sure I was doing the right thing, by staying and fighting for my M.
I suspect that these GF's, who were married, had not ever had to deal with adultery.
Others admired the strength that it took. I relied on these people for more strength.

Almost everyone questioned my tactics while I was in Plan A, had never heard of such a bizarre way of dealing with this.
They had also never heard of Dr. Harley or MB.

Some tactics to get you through this mind sucking, and heart wrenching Plan A .....

Keep up with the looking good, our outlook is better when we look great. Nice toes, great hair, some make up,
all areas trimmed/shaved .... everything in tact!

Pamper yourself, soothing hot baths turn out the lights, add some aromatherapy candles and soft music,
and just relax into never never land .....

If your budget can handle it, get a massage, a lymph drainage massage is to die for!

Take up a new interest or revive an old one, steer your thinking to something that you find enjoyable.

Get your exercise, the endorphins that are released will rejuvenate you for the day. I took up running again,
something that I let slip. Not only did I feel better physically, it gave me time unscramble all of the
thoughts whirling in my head.

Have some outlet where you can scream if you need to, I used to scream at my oven (I know it's weird)
This may not work for you, I don't know.
After my WH would leave the house and I had listened to his babble, I just needed to scream at something.

You are doing well, keep it up, you can do this, you really can!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/05/09 02:19 AM
Thanx I will try all of it. What I do when I am upset is drive in my car with some really loud music and scream my head off.

I just told my friend that I am getting exhausted defending my actions to people. She said "well I can't lie to you." I said" I don't need you to lie. You could just say "that sounds interesting. I hope it works out for you."" That's what I need when I feel a little sad.

He is still avoiding me and when I make an attempt to say or do anything he ignores it. It is a little sad for me but I know that it is expected. Read most of SAA today so I should finish it tomorrow. I am going to read it a few times to get it all stuck in. I am sure that what we have here is an example of Soul-mate so LUCKY US (that SUCKS). Prayers going out all of the time and it is now in the hands of the universe.
Prayers for YOU and your family.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/06/09 10:52 AM
I now see why you can only do Plan A for so long. I have a countdown of the days because sometimes it just seems too hard.

I also don't understand why I am more angry about the other things he does than about the fact that he had sex with her. I used to believe that that was what I wouldn't be able to get over, but that part is NOTHING compared to the fact that he spends time with her, tells her she's cute, tells her he loves him, etc. I guess it has something to do with my important ENs.

I am going to ride out this train and let's see what stops we make along the way. I just still have HOPE that the final destination is a healthier and happier M than before.
It's called a rollercoaster ride for a good reason.
Take care of yourself as much as possible, that tends to quiet your "taker" a little.
Your "taker" is not enjoying Plan A very much. So, take her out on a date (lunch mani/pedi, etc)
This is by far the hardest part of Plan A. I am sorry you are dealing with this.

I want to start a thread on what can be on the other end of Plan A if a BW can hang in there...I haven't done that yet, but please believe that the payoff can be beyond your wildest dreams if you can hang in there.

But RIGHT NOW I know you are dying inside and I am incredibly sorry for that.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/07/09 02:59 AM
It's also the fact that when I do things for him that make him uncomfortable, ie touch him in ANY way, he pulls away from me. He has even stopped saying good night and sometimes he gets a bit snotty about things.

Today I had to endure a Children's Christmas Party with my MIL and SIL and of course WH. It was soooooo hard because it was the big pink elephant in the corner. WH was trying to get involved with the kids but they were more involved with me and I think it upset him a bit. I used to make sure they included him too but I don't go out of my way to do it anymore.

I don't know if that is the right thing to do but I figure it is time for him to make sure his relationship is good.

I do have a question about being in Plan B though. Should I still communicate with MIL and SIL in regards to the kids, like what they want for Xmas, bdays etc?

Sorry to ask so much but it totally goes against my instincts and I just want to make sure I do the best I can so no matter which way this ends up I will be able to say I have no regrets because I handled it the best way I knew.

Thanx
Today I started feeling a little better. Started the morning thinking I couldn't do the whole time I planned in Plan A and now I know I can.

Soon to come, Plan B letter draft (and plenty of questions about that one too)
Originally Posted By: Scotland
It's also the fact that when I do things for him that make him uncomfortable, ie touch him in ANY way, he pulls away from me. He has even stopped saying good night and sometimes he gets a bit snotty about things.


Because you being in Plan A and behaving unexpectedly generous towards him makes HIM feel like a schmuck ! doh2 He's going to hate Plan B even more ... but you will not know that until later ... because you will be protected from knowing what mood he's in. It's common for Plan B wives to imagine that their waynerd is all sunshine and roses in Plan B - trust us - he's going to be happy for about 48 hours then he's going to be a buggar.

Quote:
I used to make sure they included him too but I don't go out of my way to do it anymore.


Right!

Quote:
I don't know if that is the right thing to do but I figure it is time for him to make sure his relationship is good.


Yes!

Quote:
I do have a question about being in Plan B though. Should I still communicate with MIL and SIL in regards to the kids, like what they want for Xmas, bdays etc?


When you are in Plan B you can communicate with them if you want to. It seems like you will want to.
However, make it clear to them that they are NOT to discuss WH or OW in your presence because you are not able to tolerate WH's adultery any longer and you will not allow discussions concerning WH or OW. They will need to be reminded a few times. Keep them in your camp , if possible. But always show your graceful wonderful side to them. It makes the waynerds look more stupid and selfish to their family.
LOL waynerds
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/07/09 04:17 AM
Do any of you think it is appropriate for me to air some of my problems with WH behaviour over an email as he tries to ignore me all of the other time? I know that he called OW again while I was at work and even ignored our children to carry on conversation. He also started going out whenever he wants to and doesn't feel like he needs to tell me where he is anymore.

I know I have to tell him some things that worked in the marriage before and tell him that the things he is doing is hurting me but I am just not sure how to do it without going into R talk and how to do that when he doesn't want to let me fill any ENs. It seems to be getting worse but as I understand it it is because he is getting uncomfortable and trying to push me away.

I am reading more posts on MB and this is where all of the other questions arose from.
Quote:
he pulls away from me


Start tucking notes in his stuff.
His glove compartment in the car.
His briefcase (if he has one).
The windshield.
His gym bag.

"Remember when we (insert happy memory). I was thinking about that day and I want to say, thanks for every happy moment we've shared."

This is war. Fire the guns.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/07/09 04:43 AM
Thanx Pepper. I will definitely do that. It is funny because even when he told me he was leaving I did tell him thank you for the good things in my life and that was before I found MB.

A little evil part of me hopes OW finds one of the letters and goes a little crazy about it. That is just my fun in my head sometimes when I am suffering. I guess whatever helps me get through another day of not going crazy.

One thing I did learn is how many GOOD friends I really do have.
Your panties in the passenger seat pocket of his car ... I'm just sayin'....
and ... touch him in his sleep lashes (but resist the urge to inflict harm ! )
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/07/09 01:40 PM
Quote:
Your panties in the passenger seat pocket of his car ... I'm just sayin'....


I left mine beside the bed in the motel room, and I know she found them. She stuffed them in the closet, along with my silky nighty that was under the pillow.

As to the phone conversations he's having, I think this late in Plan A it's ok to let it go. If you do say something, make it very short and still sweet. "I'd really appreciate it if you didn't talk to your adultery partner while the kids or I are around - thanks! Would you like some cheesecake?" Then don't bother to try and follow up. He'll still do it, but not as comfortably.

If you read the very first post on my thread, all the notes I left around were one of the few things that really made it through to my FWH even in the fog, though I had no idea at the time. They had no visible result during the A.

Let Operation Leaflet Bomb commence!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/07/09 02:41 PM
This is AWESOME advice it is making me GIDDY just reading these things to do. Is it wrong for me to enjoy this this much? NOPE hehehehehe.

I am brainstorming to figure out the best memories to put in the notes and the fun places to put them. He works at a call center and he wears a headset, which he brings home everyday. The first note I wrote I put in his headset box so when he took them out, at work, in front of her, since she sits right beside him, she would be reminded that I am still there.

I will be figuring out other places to put the notes and I am sure he will start checking things before he goes to work so he doesn't get in trouble. The pantie idea is a GREAT one. I am gonna get creative with that one.

I am starting to really get in to the angry stage of all of this but it's only because I am so hurt. I also feel like a real idiot. I mean I approached them about this many times over the last 2 years and I didn't handle it all that well because I was very jealous and my inner voice was telling me it was wrong but I kept believing him. I am partly mad at myself for not stopping it sooner but I did my best at the time. Now I am ready to do better since I have some training and good generals telling me how to win the war.
I'm sorry I haven't read your whole thread, can you give me a quick update on how long you are going to Plan A him?

I see in your sig line that he is planning on waiting until Feb. to move out. Why is he waiting? Personally, I think that is wayyyyy too long to Plan A him. You will have a nervous breakdown if you try it that long. Trust me because I did it and it wasn't worth it.
Posted By: reading Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/07/09 04:17 PM
Every one is different in how long they can handle Plan A.

I did it for six months and it was actually, over all, quite a 'fun' thing to do.

You put your Taker in the background, ask it to watch the Giver do its stuff and have an 'enjoyable' time luring the wayward back towards intimacy from the far reaches of withdrawal (the three stages of marriage, intimacy, conflict, withdrawal).

Right now, concentrate on the notes, the smiles, the expressions of caring spousedom in a difficult situation and when the Taker gets too antsy, tell it that Plan B will come soon enough.

My 2 cents.

Whatever you feel.....do not lovebust. Do not. Do not. Do not.
Posted By: catperson Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/07/09 04:39 PM
I would warn you, however, do not 'shower' him with notes. That will seem forced and fake. If it's not something you've done before, I would do no more than one or two a week. So that it seems spontaneous.
My view of Plan a is, you are acting in ways you have learned and would like to act in a loving relationship. We call it Plan a when it is in this situation when your S is having an A and the feelings are not reciprocated. But think of the things you are changing about how you act and react, and what changes you will keep during recovery.

By keeping these thoughts in mind it made my actions more honest to me, and I'm sure to him also. These were real changes I was making. I was becoming more loving, and concentrating on showing him my love in the ways that spoke to him best, by fulfilling his top EN's.

The notes idea is a great idea. Any ideas you can do in a drive by fashion. A touch that is so fast he doesn't have time to flinch. Blowing a kiss, a wink, etc.

He has made up his mind to make the OW his GF and to cast off his W. He would feel he is cheating on her if he is affectionate with you. But he hasn't REALLY made the decision firm, because he is still there. He is probably telling her all kinds of lies, about not loving you anymore, how you don't sleep together, that you don't kiss or hug him, and he is trying to make these lies the truth.

So you keep up with the affection. And here is the fun part, you seduce him back... You did it once, you can do it again...
Quote:
He is probably telling her all kinds of lies, about not loving you anymore, how you don't sleep together, that you don't kiss or hug him, and he is trying to make these lies the truth
.

This is very true, so the key is to not let the lies he is telling her become true. I vividly remember this happening when I was in Plan A.

<We were in a FR so I did not KNOW the A was still on...I didn't know WHY things were still so bad, but in hindsight it was because he was TRYING to make these lies true. I am VERY THANKFUL that I didn't know the A was still on because this made it easier to Plan A him. It's much harder to keep on a good Plan A and not LB when you are dealing with an active A and you KNOW it.>

Anyways...my Plan A worked tremendously well. I became the girl he fell in love with years ago and that was MUCH more appealing than the alternative.

To give you some hope...my DH is very much in love with me today, and I am certain it is because during my Plan A I LEARNED how to meet his needs and truly be someone he does not want to be without.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/07/09 05:19 PM
OK firstly, I am only intending to do Plan A for about a week and a half upon Pepperband's suggestion that I ask him to leave before Xmas and move into a Dark Plan B. I know the affair is active and I also know that he is trying desperately to move away from me totally. While we were out yesterday I just moved my foot to touch his and he moved 2 feet away. Then our legs accidentally touched when we sat down and he made sure he picked up his chair and moved 6 inches away. I wanted to yell at him so badly but I kept it in. It's like he doesn't want to cheat on HER. That drives me insane.

I am a person who tends to wear my emotions on my sleeve. My WH used to joke that if I were ever to leave him he would know why because I wouldn't be able to keep it in.

I am finding it quite difficult to Plan A because I am getting hurt over and over again by his actions. He is closing me out and my taker is getting really angry. When I feel like that I just remove myself until I feel like I can keep it under control.

I do realize how Plan A is showing me what I am going to do in Recovery(if I can get us there). I am actually finding that I can do these things without totally hating them. Most of the things, I used to do before kids but I focused too much on them. That isn't a regret I have I just wish I would have spent some more time on myself and my M.

WH actually said to me a few months ago while we were shopping in a furniture store, that the sales people were approaching me and not him because I was looking older. I told him that one of us had to grow up. I had noticed he was acting like a rebellious teenager and it was driving me nuts. He was complaining about me looking through his things, asking him where he was and asking him to take on responsibilities in the house. I now know these were all signs of his affair.

I am doing my best to fill ENs and it feels like it isn't working. I am just going to do my best and hope that somewhere in there my H still exists.

It hurts sometimes too because I was his first GF and he is now doing to her what he did for me. Sometimes it makes me scared that they will stay together and they will be happy. I can't wait around for him I am just going to focus on myself and the kids when I am in Plan B and see what happens. I am glad that I found MB and I know that no matter what I will get through this.

HOPE AND FAITH is all I have left laugh
Posted By: Vittoria Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/07/09 05:21 PM
Originally Posted By: Scotland
The first note I wrote I put in his headset box so when he took them out, at work, in front of her, since she sits right beside him, she would be reminded that I am still there.

You exposed at the workplace right ???
Were there no repercussions for WH or OW ?

If I remember correctly, you are the BS that has not been able to expose on the OW's side.
Is there no one at the workplace that could give you some info on this POSOW ?
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/07/09 05:33 PM
I did expose at work and I have heard nothing about it.

You are correct that I am still unable to find OW family. I can't find them at all and I don't know what to do to find them. I know she has a mother that lives far away from her and a brother who watches her daughter for her. I don't know their names and I have noone who can tell me. I have tried to contact someone who may know but no luck yet as it had to be done third party. I am at a stand still with this part as nothing can be done on my end.

I exposed to an online RPG game he plays hoping that someone would put pressure on him but now he changed his passwords and I don't have a clue.
Originally Posted By: Scotland
I did expose at work and I have heard nothing about it.

YOU hearing about it isn't the point.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/07/09 05:39 PM
I just meant that I don't know if there were any things that happened to them and if it was even taken seriously. It's almost like all of my exposure didn't get me any of the help in putting pressure on the A. Well, I know it was a step that had to be taken.
You need to actually talk to someone at their work. Have you done this?

Their managers will surely care that they are using company time (and thus, money) to carry on their adulterous affair. Have you contacted HR???

<If exposure has not been done properly, you are spinning your wheels. You need to make the A VERY uncomfortable for them. Once I did full-on, nuclear exposure, the A ended and we got into real recovery.>

I don't have time right now, but please go back and look at my exposure thread in early March 2007...titled something like "NC Never *&^%$ Started".

This is the sort of exposure you MUST do if you haven't already.
Posted By: Vittoria Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/07/09 05:55 PM
So WH's workplace condones adultery .... lovely. grumble

Does your WH always pack his own lunch, or does he eat out ?
An unexpected lunch delivery would be sweet, especially when made by
a hot looking BW.
Hmm, would this cause tension between the adulteres ??? grin

Remember, you are still married to WH, and you believe in M, anyway you can remind both of them of this will be in your favour,
in a non love busting way of course.

As far as WH not responding to your affections, just keep doing them.
He may be angry at himself, feeling some guilt for his actions.
He may be in disbelief that you are sincere, so stay consistent, lovebusters can make him doubt your intentions.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/07/09 05:57 PM
Ok here it is. I have exposed to his mother, whom he barely speaks to and she said she doesn't get involved in this sort of thing. I exposed to his sister whom he doesn't even talk to. I have told all of the people on my side of the equation. I have told old friends of his as he has no current friends other than her and her friends. I can't find her friends or family.

I wrote two letters to their work since I found out that he took her on a training trip in August. The second letter was just sent last Tuesday.

I told our children about all of it. I told them that if they had any questions they could ask either one of us. They said they understood what was going on.

I really don't know who else I CAN expose to. I feel like that was all I could do and it wasn't a nuclear explosion so it wasn't want it needed to be. Does that mean I should give up hope?
Sometimes exposure ends the affair.

Sometimes it doesn't.

You need to focus on Plan A. Meet his ENs, avoid LBs, and do it as long as you can without causing yourself irreparable harm like PTSD. Learn to state how hurtful the affair is in a calm and loving manner. Find ways to catch him in the act and remind him you are still his wife, love him very much, and expect him to come home.

Then prepare for your dark, dark Plan B... and do Plan B on your timetable, not his.
Posted By: Vittoria Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/07/09 06:05 PM
Originally Posted By: MarriedForever
You need to actually talk to someone at their work. Have you done this?

Personally, if I were you, and had not heard of any changes in the workplace, (they still sit beside eachother rant2)
I would prance in there and ask to speak to the person that you sent the letter to.
Then I would ask what is being done to help you save your M, if nothing is being done, then
ask
"Is it the policy of this workplace to encourage adultery or help families and M's remain intact?"
No, you should not give up hope but you SHOULD make phone calls to HR at their work.

No more of this sending-letters-nonsense. That isn't working because you don't know if they are receiving them.

When you call HR, politely let them know that sexual harrassment lawsuits can certainly stem frm situations/inappropriate relationships such as the one POSOW is having with your H, a married man.

When you call HR, ask to speak to a manager or someone high up in the managerial chain.

Also, do you attend a church? If so, let your pastor know and ask him if he will contact your H.

Does your H have any other good friends? Expose to them AGAIN and ask their help in saving your M. Ask them to put pressure on your H to do the right thing and keep his family intact.

Is he close to anyone in your family? Do you have anyone in your family who he respects and would feel badly if he knew they were highly disappointed in him?
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/07/09 06:12 PM
He doesn't have any friends anymore. He does seem to hang out with a couple of people from work but I don't know them at all.

We don't attend church.

I have told all of the friends we do have and they were shocked but they politely told me they couldn't take sides. I just explained that I needed to try to save this. He wouldn't answer the phone if he saw who was calling so I don't know how any of them will even be able to contact him if they wanted to help.

I will try to call his work and see what I can do there.
Posted By: reading Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/07/09 06:13 PM
Since you are planning on one week before Plan B, I want to give some suggestions

Low cut shirts and alluring nightclothes. Occasional strutting naked.

Come hither, smokey eyes at him (do your best to stay in the character and not laugh or cry).

Maybe some solitary sensual pleasure next to him. Not inviting him to participate BUT being a bit brave and if he gets angry or rude saying "sorry but I just felt the need."


Smell good.

Look good.

Look like you FEEL good.
Be brave.

Do hot stuff for him to recall when he is gone.

SF is one of men's most important emotional needs and a powerful one. You meet it by showing that you are a sexual woman who knows how to feel sexual all on your own.

Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/07/09 06:19 PM
I just called their workplace and all that HR told me was that they are not allowed to discuss anything to do with their policies if it not to an employee.

I feel like all of my exposing was for NOTHING and now I am getting that hopeless feeling again.
You don't need them to tell you their policy...just politely let them know that your VERY MARRIED HUSBAND is having an affair with one of their EMPLOYEES and you are sure they would want to know so that they can protect themselves from a potential sexual harrassment lawsuit.

The words "Sexual Harrassment Lawsuit" will SURELY perk up their ears.
Posted By: Vittoria Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/07/09 06:33 PM
Don't give up hope Scotland, your M is not over until D papers are signed,(remember that smile )
and you are not even close to that.

Right now you are fighting the A and showing your WH that you are the best choice,
and you are giving him the best impression of what married life can be like with you.

Do what you can to make the A an uncomfortable situation to be in, for both the infidels.
I learned that in fighting the A part, you have to be ruthless, it is war.

You are still doing great, breathe and keep your focus.

p.s. no work place likes the sounds of 'Sexual Harrassment'
Posted By: Vittoria Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/07/09 06:41 PM
Originally Posted By: Vittoria
p.s. no work place likes the sounds of 'Sexual Harrassment'

Thought I better clarify this .....

I mean that the workplace sounds like this is the only weapon you have right now to use against this adultery.
Workplaces not liking the sound of 'Sexual Harrassment' , is a good thing to use!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/07/09 07:10 PM
I used the Sexual Harrassment question and she asked how a lawsuit could arise from this and if what I was trying to do was get information from her of a nature that she was not allowed to tell me? She even asked me if I was trying to tell her how to do her job? She said that all she could tell me was that they had received the letters. It really didn't seem so promising I guess I have to just let this affair die a natural death with no help from exposure.
Originally Posted By: Scotland
I used the Sexual Harrassment question and she asked how a lawsuit could arise from this and if what I was trying to do was get information from her of a nature that she was not allowed to tell me? She even asked me if I was trying to tell her how to do her job? She said that all she could tell me was that they had received the letters. It really didn't seem so promising I guess I have to just let this affair die a natural death with no help from exposure.

Don't be so sure. It may be that they would rather handle this internally and not expose their own dirty laundry.

I have received no response to the letters I sent to POSOM's employer. And I cc'd the CEO and General Counsel.

Either it has an effect or it doesn't. But as Wayne Gretsky famously remarked, "You never make 100% of the shots you don't take."
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/07/09 07:33 PM
Reading- I have been dressing more sexy and making sure I do my hair and even wearing makeup. Smiling a lot and laughing as much as possible even when I don;t think things are that funny.

I wrote him an email today detailing a dream i had in which I did all of his favourite things in a sexual way. I know his fantasies and that helped.

It is hard to do any of the other things because he barely even looks at me. I am going to do all that I can and just let it fall on deaf ears but maybe WH is actually in there somewhere and when the A starts going down he will remember those little things. I just need him to have me in his mind when he is with her sometimes so it will cause his little brain to clear up a bit.
For most men AS (Attractive Spouse) is an EN, even if they don't recognize it, so keeping yourself looking good is VERY important.

Even during the A I know my appearance made a big impression on my FWH because he commented on it often (he always has). Even when things between us were rough, he would STILL tell me how good I looked.

And if you are planning on going to Plan B, this is really crucial. Let his last mental pictures of you being how GREAT you looked all the time.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/07/09 08:01 PM
MF- well I don't know about looking GREAT hehehehe.....I gained a lot of weight over our relationship and I have been losing some lately due to the "MY H IS SLEEPING WITH OW DIET" which is to say barely eating. She is smaller than me but she is also overweight which I don't think matters to him that much.

I have been walking with friends and exercising regularly as well. I have been feeling and looking better and others have been telling me this lately which is really hard, since the only person I really want to hear it from is not even looking at me much.. He hasn't mentioned anything about my looks at all but I still make sure to try to look my best. I have caught him stealing quick looks at me and I make sure he sees a good deal that would make him happy. I am just doing the best I can with what I have.

I attempted to call my FIL today but I got his wife instead. My WH has had no contact with his father in years but I thought that maybe if FIL would at the very least leave a message or write a letter telling WH that what he is doing isn't right that maybe the influence he had on him when he was a child will sink in a little. It was my last resort as my best chance was their work and that panned out to NADA.
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/07/09 08:23 PM
Quote:
maybe WH is actually in there somewhere and when the A starts going down he will remember those little things


This is correct. Even if he doesn't remember the specifics,you will leave him with a general impression of a beautiful, warm, sexy wife that he stands to lose in exchange for...not so much.

Don't stress the exposure thingy, except for trying to locate OW's family. While your best-case scenario involves family, friends, acquaintances,and bosses all standing firmly on the side of family and fidelity, even if that doesn't happen exposure still has an impact. Whether people disapprove or not, the secret is out, and isn't so fun or shiny any more. It still has the light of day, with or without approval. And A's suffocate in the light.
Posted By: reading Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/07/09 08:47 PM
And

flash a little bosom with a wink and smile when the kids aren't in the room.

Enjoy the rest of your plan A days!
Posted By: not2fun Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/07/09 10:19 PM
((((Scotland))))),

Oh honey...I feel for you. But take comfort in that you have the best of the BEST helping you....( wink...that's for you Pep...you naughty naughty lady, you....)



Originally Posted By: Scotland
It's also the fact that when I do things for him that make him uncomfortable, ie touch him in ANY way, he pulls away from me.


I wanted to touch on this for a moment. First off, I bumped up a thread by Schoolbus called "Schoolbus' info thread...body language, memory..". I want you to read this. And pay close attention to what she write, because this comes from years of experience in her line of work....

The thing is, even if he pulls away from you, you need to encroach on his space every chance you get. Move a tuff of hair when passing, give his bicept a gentle squeeze when he walks out the door (this is MY FAVORITE move. It demostates his strength in comparisson to your "delicacy"..... ;)), when he sitting down give his shoulders a squeeze.

In fact, offer him a massage. I do not know of one wayward that has ever passed this one up. You might "notice" how tense he is (which of course he is....affairs are stressful stuff ya know.... MrRollieEyes).....it can go something like this....

Mr. WScot....(sitting in a chair or standing there looking forlorn)

Mrs. Scot....(comes over and squeezes his shoulder...).."OH honey, you feel tense. Is your neck bothering you??"..... flirt

Mr. WScot.....(looking grumpy...maybe even moving over a little..)....(sigh)..."No, its fine".... uhuh

Mrs. Scot...."Are you sure???...You do feel awfully tense. Why don't I give you a rub down?"..... lashes

Mr. WScot...."I told you its fine...."...... grumble

Mrs. Scot..."Well, okay, but if you change your mind, you know where to find me...."...(walking away...)

Mr. WScot...."You know, I do feel a little tight...I SUPPOSE that I could use a little massage....if you don't mind..."....


Anyway, the thing is you need to touch him whenever you can. Since he's being quite difficult, I wouldn't be to overt about it, but yet, encroach his personal space as much as possible. Schoolbus' thread gives lots of info on this and the scientific reasoning behind it. But, even though it seems to agitate him, it will be these seemingly small jesture's that will stay with him later on when you are in a dark Plan B.

I'm a big fan of the notes too. Remember, they don't have to be special loving memories. Just memories. Even reminising about the year you burnt the turkey at Thanksgiving that is funny NOW, is good. This is the kind of stuff that confuses the poor, drug-induced wayward brain.....I did this on our DD15 (then 14) birthday. WH had gone out of town, and was having a "bad" moment...I kept talking to him about the day she was born, the labor, him playing spoons in the waiting room, the moment she came, him letting me choose the name. These are memories and moments that OW can NEVER share with him.....It was very painful for him to "remember". Of course, unbeknown to me at the time, it was probably me piling on the guilt (unknowingly..... grin), since the "business" trip he was on was really a trip to OW, trying to win her back. Nothing like missing your DD Bday to bump uglies with your mistress..... puke
But the point I am trying to make is you need to create GOOD feelings and memories NOW and REMIND him of the GOOD memories of YOUR guys' past.....

You are doing wonderful BTW......this is a rollercoaster of emotions......

not2fun
I remember hearing this story about a guy who was having an affair at work. His wife came up to him one day and talked to him about it.

She wasn't crying or or yelling at all. She chuckled and said something about his ego and his "little" affair he was having with the secretary. She seemed like she was talking about a child and a crush on his teacher. She was not moved to be angry at all. Of course this is not what you should look like but thier is something about being confident that takes all of the power out of the betrayal and is very attractive to men.

You have everything to be confident about. As a guy i can tell you that all of the sexual advances, flirting, positive bubbly attitude, and kind of wild suggestions are working on him. There isn't a man born who doesn't respond to flattery and attention.

You can be confident that you are married to him, she isn't and you have the right to tell everyone you are his and he is yours. She is stealing and sneaking around with some kind of excuse. Its allways an excuse. There is no reason in thier behavior. There is "a" reason for it, but it is sneaky and weak.

If he is whining it will make them miserable, especially as he starts to complain to her about how much you are coming on to him because eventually he will be conflicted. He can't talk to her about it because she will get jealous and boo-hoo who will he talk to? Then you will inhabit a mysteriuos place in his mind that she won't be able to control.

If there is some kind of alliance about blame game stuff and past issues he is blaming you for as long as you remain willing...yes so very willing.. to submit to him in love and truth it will get into his head and she will not be able to get it out. That new woman that you show him will blow him away and the romance he allways wanted with you will seem possible. Heck he might even twist his arm outta joint patting himself on the back for picking you to begin with because "He Knew! he picked right".

I speak from a husbands point of view. My wife had screwwed up bigtime(affair with alcohol and PAs), verbal abuse and all of the stuff that comes with it, and I left. It took her 2 years to get me back. She did just about all the things these ladies are describing and also had no problem telling me she was fighting for her marriage and we were worth the fight. I had good reason not to come back but she really changed and it took that long for me to believe it. The visions of my wifes sultry looks at me when I would come over to see the kids and her complete turn around in stability eventually made the choice to come home the most comfortable one. Men are all about comfort at home it seems. Egos puffed up, KIng of the castle. Wife can't get enough of him....LOL. Well at least thats what you want him to see right now.
I seriuosly hope that you guys will experiance that later, I know its possible, but it will take some time after you both are in the next stage.

Oh yeah the blatent throwing yourself at him (when you can), behavior. Don't ever feel that you need to be sorry for it. If he gets mad then just be respectful and back off but keep a mischievous smile in your eyes. Don't ever apolgize for what he might call manipulation. Say that you are doing what you want to and sleeping with him is one of your top prioritys in life.

Ok girls, do you think thats sound advice? You guys really are awesome at this. Listen and trust these girls scotland. If what they are saying doesn't work the man has no pulse
I imagine that his moving away from you whenever your feet or knees happen to touch feels a bit like a gut punch.

This might help turn things around. Remember, so much of this is all in controlling your perception and having NO EXPECTATIONS. Right now you're touching him and secretly (or not so secretly) hoping he'll respond. When he makes an effort to move away, it hurts you. So you have to get rid of those (not so) secret expectations.

Try making a game in your head. Bet yourself that "this time he will rearrange his body but not actually scoot his chair/butt away" or "this time he will move a minimum of three inches" or "He's extra grumpy. This time he'll leave the room." Then put your hand on his shoulder and lean in to say something to him, or play footsie with him or whatever, and see how close you come.

I'm thinking if you "win" your little game in your mind, you'll have a slight smile playing at the corner of your lips. That will be confusing to him. If he exceeds your expectations or falls short of them, you might have a slight look of surprise. Also confusing to him, because he's expecting hurt or anger.

Dunno if that will help, but I thought I'd throw it out for consideration.
Posted By: Vittoria Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/08/09 01:06 AM
Originally Posted By: sortingitout
Ok girls, do you think thats sound advice?

Sounds sound to me sortingitout. smile
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/08/09 03:31 PM
I am going to keep it up the as best as I can. While we were out last night he kept ignoring me but I kept on saying and doing things. I made sure I dressed up I was showing of my best assets and I caught him looking a couple of times. He didn't say anything but I know he noticed. I touched him a couple times when I could and I tried to engage him whenever possible. It seemed weird to me that I should know that it is working because he is trying to avoid me instead of 2 weeks ago when I thought it was going well because he was joking and interacting with me.

On our way home I made sure to bring up some happy memories about when we used to drive off road. We got stuck many times and we had a lot of fun. We were sharing these memories with the kids. He was really excited to tell them everything and he even actually said good night to me when I went to bed. I am going to keep it up as much as I can it just seems really uncomfortable.

When I do the physical things, sometimes I think about the fact that as sick as this sounds, he feels like it is cheating on POSOW. That is why it bugs me. Oh well I will do what you suggest and make sure to keep it up.

I do have a question about the day that I ask him to leave. Should I ask him to come home early from work that day or just let him come home when he wants? Should the kids be there? I also think that he wants to take our bed. What should I do about that?

The Plan B letter is pretty much the one from SAA and then I have addendums to it on how to break NC with me and about finances and children visitation.

Also, what exactly should I say when telling him I am fighting for us and that I want marital recovery without sounding like I am talking about our R? I don't want to use any LBs and I can't quite figure out what is right.

I just want to make sure I do my best.
Quote:
Also, what exactly should I say when telling him I am fighting for us and that I want marital recovery without sounding like I am talking about our R? I don't want to use any LBs and I can't quite figure out what is right.


This is all in the Plan B letter - so that you don't LB and you get it right.
You actually say very little to him in person.
You hand him the letter and tell him that your heart is breaking, you know he is planning to leave you anyway, and you need him to go now instead of later.

If he asks questions, you say:

"It's all in the letter."

You keep the bed.
If he argues, you say:

"You're breaking my heart."

Don't argue about anything, you stick to your script of how much pain you are in.

You should probably start working on that letter.
Quote:
I do have a question about the day that I ask him to leave. Should I ask him to come home early from work that day or just let him come home when he wants? Should the kids be there? I also think that he wants to take our bed. What should I do about that?


He takes NOTHING from the marital home except his personal belongings. He is the one carrying on an A and breaking up the family ~ he does not get to furnish his new place with ANYTHING from your home.

Personally, I think your best bet is to have all of his stuff packed up and on the front porch with the Plan B letter on top so he sees it right away. CHANGE THE LOCKS THAT DAY. This step is crucial or he will waltz right in every chance he gets.

You don't need to explain anything to him about the PBL...it's all in there. You do have an intermediary (IM), right? THIS IS ALSO CRUCIAL. Don't even attempt PB without an IM, it's a disaster every single time.

Can you post your PBL here to make sure everything is covered? That would be helpful for you, we can make sure it's all good.
Posted By: Lexxxy Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/08/09 04:08 PM
Start getting your ducks in a row for Plan B.

Finances? Does he provide all of your support? Do you need to file to maintain it or will he willingly comply? In your state can you file for separation rather than divorce? Have you consulted with an attorney? If not -- do so right away so that you know your rights in terms of:

Exclusive Use of Marital Home.
Exclusive Use of Marital property contained in the home (he gets his clothes.)
Primary Physical Custody of children
Preventing Children from exposure to affair (blocking OW)
Changing locks

Sometimes you need to file for temporary custody and support at the same time you go to Plan B-- if you think he will be outraged or non-compliant. If you depend on his income for support, you probably want to do that so that you are not worried about finances during his temper-tantrum.

Have you chosen the Plan B date? Its really important that you be completely unreachable. Can you take the boys and go away? Have someone at your house, but you be gone.


*****

About his mindset: He feels very OBLIGATED to OW by now. I hate to tell you this, but this is a long term entrenched affair. He has stalled as long as he could -- but now he's made promises to OW that he feels very obligated to fulfill. He really thought he could manipulate his "leaving" so that you would not know it was an affair.

He thought he could leave....stay with his "friend" OW.....and then make everyone believe that their relationship just developed due to her graciousness in helping him through his difficult time. The marriage was over, OW had NOTHING to do with the breakup of the marriage....

See?

That is why exposure is sooooo very critical. It ruins that fantasy and doesn't allow them to spin the story into some beautiful love story. Everyone will know and judge their sleazy actions.

Its especially important for your children to know EXACTLY who and what OW is. Their home-wrecker. She is their absolute enemy. She is pure EVIL to your children. And it is OK and APPROPRIATE for the children to be angry with their father.
Posted By: reading Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/08/09 04:14 PM
And let me share something about my own experience going to Plan B.

The first week after I did it, I was okay and then WHAM! I was massively depressed/griefstricken. I had to start a supplement to handle my emotions. It is our own withdrawal from the one we love.

I personally took Sam-E but others take antidepressants.

Consider what you would do if you arrive at that juncture and maybe pre-start something with your physician's guidannce so you will be able to rise above and ride the waves.

Enjoy your plan A meanwhile!
See if any of this is useful:
Link to Plan B ideas
From a thread on Recovery Forum:


Quote:
In the article What Are Plan A and Plan B? Dr Harley explains that Plan A takes a terrible toll on all BSs and should not be continued indefinitely:

But plan A, an effort to end the affair with thoughtfulness and care, doesn't always work. In many cases a wayward spouse is so trapped by the addiction that he or she does not have the will-power to do the right thing. Once in a while the fog lifts and the cruelty and tragedy of the affair hits the wayward spouse right between the eyes. In a moment of grief and guilt, he or she promises to end it. But then the pain of withdrawal symptoms often brings back the fog with all its excuses and rationalization, and the affair is on again.

Sometimes a wayward spouse settles into a routine of having his or her cake and eating it too. In an effort to win the wayward spouse back, the betrayed spouse meets emotional needs that the lover cannot meet, while the lover meets emotional needs that the betrayed spouse has not learned to meet. While this competition is excruciatingly painful to the betrayed spouse, and the lover as well, the wayward spouse basks in the warmth of being loved and cared for by two people, with no real motivation to choose one over the other.

So, to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B.

Link to article



Posted By: Vittoria Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/08/09 06:17 PM
FYI .....

With regards to changing the locks, I advised a real life BS here in Ontario to do this.
The BS said that they were told by their lawyer that this could not be done, that
you can't lock your spouse out of the marital home.
The BS explained it more, but I can't remember the details ..... sorry.

I'm telling you this so that you can be prepared if this is an issue.
Find out from your lawyer exactly how to do this the right way, if it can
be done.
The last thing you want is WH legally forcing you to change the locks back,
and then go in and out as he pleases.

In my case, I locked the doors with H's stuff in the drive, he pounded on the windows,
screamed vile stuff all the while red as a beet.
But .... he did respect my wishes to not come back in the home.

You may not be that lucky to have a co-operative WH.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/08/09 07:03 PM
I don't think he will argue about leaving. I do think he is going to be shocked that I am asking him to go but I think he will go. He thought I was kicking him out a week and a half ago and I said that I just wanted him out of the room not the house but then I invited him back into our room.

The funny thing is that he didn't want to take all of his stuff. It was like our home was going to be his storage unit. I did tell him that that wasn't happening and when I talked to OW that bad night, I told her that I hoped she had made plenty of room because she was getting all of his stuff too. Her response was snotty and she said "Why don't you just move in to?"

I do know that legally I am not allowed to change the locks but I am just going to ask him for the keys back.

The day I picked to do this is my birthday. I figure he picked our anniversary to give me the ILYBNILWY speech so I am taking some control back. I exposed to everyone I know will be in contact with them other than her side (I really can't find anyone there so that will be their refuge but I made sure that it is getting out to the employees at their work too.)

I do have an IM set up. It is a couple we have jointly known for 11 years and they are like second parents to us. Our kids even call them grandma and grandpa. They are very trustworthy and I know they want what is best for our family.

I am planning on putting his stuff on the porch and I wasn't sure what to do after that. Do I just let him come home and discover it? Do I not let the kids say good-bye?
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/08/09 07:08 PM
My Dear WH,
I apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affair with OW possible. I focused too much on the children and neglected to meet your emotional needs. I was not there for you when you needed me most, and we are now both suffering for my mistake.

I am willing to avoid the mistakes I've made in the past and create a new life for both of us that meet your needs. But I cannot do that until you end your relationship with OW once and for all.

Until then, I will avoid seeing you or talking to you. Our friends x and x have agreed to help make arrangements for you to visit the children whenever is convenient to you and as discussed. But I will not be around when you pick them up for your visit. If you want to communicate about the children or any other matter, it will have to be through x and x.

I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you this way. You must know about the suffering I have endured because of your relationship with OW, and I simply cannot be with you any longer, knowing that you are with her. I still love you but I cannot see you under these conditions.

As soon as you are willing to permanently separate from OW and are willing to ensure total separation (including a NO CONTACT for Life with her), I will be willing to discuss our future together.

I want us to be able to rebuild our marriage someday. I want us to be able to meet each other's emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We need to build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then there will never again be a reason for us to separate. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you as my best friend.

I loved you when we married and I continue to love you right up to this day. I just cannot be with you or help you as long as you are seeing OW.

With my love,
BW



To break the No Contact with me these are the steps YOU must take
1. You must WANT to work on our marriage
2. You must end the affair with OW
3. You will write a No Contact letter to OW and have it okayed by me and then you will send it.
4. You will leave WORKPLACE (unless she has left first)
5. You will agree to follow a marriage counseling plan of my choosing.
6. You will take a sexually transmitted disease test and I will see the results.
Originally Posted By: Scotland


I do know that legally I am not allowed to change the locks but I am just going to ask him for the keys back.


Change the locks anyway. Just don't tell WH.
The only way he'll find out is if he tries to get in.

Quote:
The day I picked to do this is my birthday.


SEE how awesomely strong and brave you've become!


Quote:
I do have an IM set up. It is a couple we have jointly known for 11 years and they are like second parents to us. Our kids even call them grandma and grandpa. They are very trustworthy and I know they want what is best for our family.


Wonderful!
Be sure they understand they are not to pass any emotional content on to you.
Business only.
Other than that, all WH's drama stops at their door.

Quote:
I am planning on putting his stuff on the porch and I wasn't sure what to do after that. Do I just let him come home and discover it? Do I not let the kids say good-bye?


This is your family.
What do you think the pros and cons are of either decision?
Noodle it out here.
PS
Have a plan for Christmas and New Years.
Posted By: catperson Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/08/09 07:14 PM
You might also get hold of his keychain that morning, and remove the key, if you think he won't notice it.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/08/09 07:16 PM
Well Christmas is always at my families house and Boxing day (day after xmas) is at my MIL. I have that he will be able to pick them up at 9 am and drop them off by 11pm. I also have to work the next morning so he will have to pick them up in the morning again. He won't have anywhere to take them but his place with her so I don't know where he is going to take them when he has them and how I can force him to not take them around her.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/08/09 07:19 PM
Pepper- I thought of the removing the key thing but he will definitely notice since he leaves while we are all sleeping and so locks the door.
Originally Posted By: Scotland
Pepper- I thought of the removing the key thing but he will definitely notice since he leaves while we are all sleeping and so locks the door.


That wasn't me grin
Originally Posted By: Scotland
Well Christmas is always at my families house and Boxing day (day after xmas) is at my MIL. I have that he will be able to pick them up at 9 am and drop them off by 11pm. I also have to work the next morning so he will have to pick them up in the morning again. He won't have anywhere to take them but his place with her so I don't know where he is going to take them when he has them and how I can force him to not take them around her.


You can't. Unless you file for legal separation and make that one of the stipulations.
But, if you think he will bring the kids around the homewrecker, have a heart-to-heart talk with the kids BEFORE this happens. Tell them they can call you anytime, if anything is upsetting to them.
Chances are, if he brings them to be with OW, the kids will call you ... and the adultery "party" is ruined.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/08/09 07:28 PM
Now about the kids being here when it happens:
Pro: WH will see the looks on their faces as he is leaving
WH and children won't actually see eachother for 8 days
Cons: kids will be sad (this is a big deal) but they will be sad anyways
WH will accuse me of using them


I just don't know which way to go. I know that some people have argued that he needs to have the memory of their sad faces as he left but I am asking him to go so I don't know if that will benefit me or not
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/08/09 07:30 PM
I guess I am getting them their own cell phone after all BOY that will make my 9 year old's day
Originally Posted By: Scotland



I just don't know which way to go. I know that some people have argued that he needs to have the memory of their sad faces as he left but I am asking him to go so I don't know if that will benefit me or not


I'd base my decision on the most vulnerable child and what's best for him/her.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/08/09 07:32 PM
This is the finances part

Finances
-You have agreed to continue to put your Pay Cheques in the bank accounts for the time being. The express understanding is that any monies taken out by either party is out of necessity for living.

-At such time when You feel that you no longer would like to do this I will require 30 days WRITTEN notice. (any fees arising out of no notice shall be paid by you)

When the finances are separate I would ask for the following
-$x every 2 weeks for child and spousal support to be deposited into the joint account by 10 am on our regular pay day(to be negotiated higher if your wage should increase)
-$x every 2 weeks for truck payment so as not to bounce anything (unless you would like to change where this comes out of)
-$x every month for your Cell phone
-$x by the 20th of every month for the truck insurance
-Credit card payments will be made by you, as I no longer have access to it and none of the charges after December 1st are mine.

-You will keep me on as a second driver on the insurance until June 30th 2010 when I will be able to find my own.
-You will keep the children on your benefits at work for as long as you have coverage
-You will keep me on your benefits until June 30, 2010

-You will remove any items that you wish from the shed by January 5, 2010 or any items left will be considered abandoned and I will do what I please with them.
-You will also remove the grandam from the driveway by the same date or it will also be considered abandoned.
Quote:
-At such time when You feel that you no longer would like to do this I will require 30 days WRITTEN notice. (any fees arising out of no notice shall be paid by you)


Take this out. He doesn't just get to "feel like" not supporting his family. Tough sh*t. it's his responsibility and having an A doesn't excuse him from this.

Also...explain to your IMs that they are "spam filters". They shouldn't forward emails or messages directly from him and they should take out EVERYTHING EVEN REMOTELY EMOTIONAL.

For example: one time my FWH took some great pics of one of our kids and asked our IM to fwd them to me. She thanked him for the nice pics but said she will not be forwarding them...that he can show them to me personally when he moves back home.

He also was reading my posts here and wanted to respond to one of my posts and tell me how sorry he was that I was hurting so badly...she again told him she would not be passing that info on to me, he could tell me himself when he agreed to my PB conditions.

Hope this helps.
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/08/09 10:38 PM
Ok, a few little suggestions on your PBL.

My Dear WH,
I apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affair with OW possible. I focused too much on the children and neglected to meet your emotional needs. I was not there for you when you needed me most, and we are now both suffering for my mistake.Take this part out - it sounds like you are taking responsibility for his choice to cheat. Maybe change it to "...and I'm sorry."

I am willing "have learned"to avoid the mistakes I've made in the past. I look forward to creating a new life for both of us that meets both our needs. But we cannot do that until you end your relationship with OW once and for all.

Until then, I have chosen to avoid seeing you or talking to you. Our friends x and x have agreed to help make arrangements for you to visit the children whenever is convenient to you and as discussed. But I will not be around when you pick them up for your visit. I would delete that sentence. Let him find it out the hard way. If you need to communicate urgent information about the children or finances, it will need to be through x and x.

I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you this way. You must know about the suffering I have endured because of your relationship with OW, and I simply cannot bear to be with you any longer, knowing that you are also with her. I still love you but I cannot keep seeing you under these conditions.

As soon as you are willing to permanently separate from OW and are willing to ensure total separation (including a NO CONTACT for Life with her)change to a more simple, "have no contact with her for the rest of your life", I will be willing to discuss our future together.

I want us to be able to rebuild our marriage someday. I want us to be able to meet each other's emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We need to build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then there will never again be a reason for us to separate. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you as my best friend.

I loved you when we married and I continue to love you right up to this day change to "today". I just cannot be with you or help you as long as you are seeing OW. To me, this is kind of a downer to end on. Maybe something like "I look forward to the day when we will always be together," or something muchy like that. It makes a much stronger ending than tossing the irrelevant OW in there as your final word.

With my love,
BW
Posted By: Tyk Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/08/09 10:42 PM
I would caution against doing this on your birthday. Just in case you do succeed in recovering your marriage (or even if you don't for that matter), you don't need your birthday to be such a potentially bad trigger day.

Also change the first paragraph. You aren't responsible for his choice to cheat. You are 1/2, he is 1/2.
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/08/09 10:47 PM
To break the No Contact with mePerhaps change to, "Before I will consider resuming direct communication with you, these are the steps YOU must take:
1. You must WANT to work on our marriage
2. You must end the affair with OW
3. You will write a No Contact letter to OW and have it okayed by me and then you "I" will send it - this is crucial!!!! You CANNOT trust a waynerd to actually mail the letter. will send it.
4. You will leave WORKPLACE (unless she has left first)
5. You will agree to follow a marriage counseling plan of my choosing.
6. You will take a sexually transmitted disease test and I will see the results.

Also, you might want to hold onto this list. Being willing to go NC with the OW is your first and foremost hurdle. If he contacts the IM's and expresses his willingness for NC, then the IM's could give him this list to work on. After that, he would be able to talk to you for as long as he proceeded with R. A breach of NC, and it's right back to the cooler for him!

It might be a bit much for him to digest at the beginning of Plan B. Being evicted from his cake-eating haven and told he can't come back till he ditches the witch is already almost more than his little alien=scrambled brain can take in all at once.
Posted By: reading Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/08/09 11:49 PM
I agree on holding the list of requirements for if he comes to talk from B.

Make it the touching love letter with the requirement of permanent no contact with OW and have the list of items available if and when the time comes.

I have my list of requirements for if I ever cross that bridge
routine lie detector
letter to OW that I read and see mailed
move to another area (she is very near by)
counseling with a Harley
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/09/09 01:41 PM
the part that I have in the finances part about giving me 30 days notice is because he said he is going to put his pay cheques in to the bank as usual. I just wanted to make sure then when he decides to stop (because I am sure OW won't be happy about him supporting ME). I guess I could just put the first line in and then give my IM the list of the support and stuff for after.

I am changing the letter with your edits, and I will give IM the list to break no contact with me.

In SAA it said that Jon sent the letter to Greg too with the bottom line added. Do you think that is a good idea?

Last night, I Plan A'd my butt off and made sure to touch him as often as possible. The first few times that I did it he didn't even react. My game was to see how many times I would have to touch him before he would react. Well, it took 6 touches but that is probably because I made the last one a good one. I leaned over with my "assets" out and lightly touched behind his head (this drives him NUTS). His reaction wasn't to pull away (which I thought for sure he would do) instead he just said "WHAAAAHT" and I said "Oh, nothing" and went to bed. I made sure that when he came to bed I was "on display" and he wrapped himself up in his blanket and rolled over.

I touched him 6 more times while he was in bed and sleeping until he reacted and got angry that I woke him up. I simply said "I couldn't resist"

It is hard to keep up the charade when what I really want to flick him in the head and tell him how mad I am at him but I am doing what is best.

I have chosen my birthday because it is Dec 18. I could do it on Dec 19 instead. The only thing is that he would be home and so would the kids. I could call in sick to work on Dec 17th and do it that day but then the kids would have to go to school the next morning. Dec 18th just seems like the best choice and it doesn't bother me that it is my bday and he doesn't really care about birthdays and stuff anyways.
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/09/09 02:26 PM
I'm a big fan of sending the OW a copy of the PBL. However, if you do, you might add one more line in the last paragraph making VERY clear that you are not giving up. "I believe in our M, I believe in you, and I am not giving up on us." Etc.

~Snicker~ about the Touch Game. You're doing great!

As far as which day to choose, pick what works best for you. With your birthday at this time of year, there will be triggers no matter what you decide on. For me, the first year or two was pretty triggery around that time, but after that it was more of hoo-yeah, I'm da woman!!! dance2 It's a day of celebration and triumph, and rejoicing in God's victory. Chances are, you'll be able to claim it as V-day, too, no matter what happens.

Although you won't have a choice over what triggers you, it will just do it, you can choose which triggers you work at to reclaim as part of your life. (I think of it as peeing on stuff to make it mine again, lol.)

Also, when you have a chance, look on here for some of the IM threads. There is lots of helpful advice that might benefit your IM's, and prepare them for what they may experience.
The only thing I would change is being specific about the Emotional Needs you are aware of, what you will change to fulfill those in the future.

He will probably not throw this letter away and will reread it later. Let it be a reminder of your Plan A...

Whatever EN's you know he wants and will remember, state those...like "I know I focused on the children and on life and did not give you enough affection and appreciation. I do appreciate you and love to hug and kiss you and promise when our M is recovered I will continue to appreciate you and hug and kiss you and will not forget to do this again."

Just an example. Using the term EN doesn't have the same power as spelling out specific actions.

Think of him reading this letter later after he gets into a raging argument with OW about the kids or finances or how he is still hung up on you and he is reminded how he has a loving wife at home that appreciates and wants to be affectionate (or whatever his most important EN's are) and how you will look like filet mignon, and she will look like chopped liver.

What will help in Plan B is to think that she gets a shame-ridden WH that is a shadow of hisself. And you are waiting until he wakes up and wants to stand up again.
Posted By: reading Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/09/09 03:33 PM
Yay on the touches!

Sending a copy to the OW is great for these reasons:

Let's her know YOU sent him away (he can't tell her he left because of his being hot to be her man)

She realizes (even down deep if nowhere else) that it is NOT over even though he is seperated

It is an example how deeply loved he is by his wife (the love letter aspect) and she has been avoiding that idea and thinking you two are nothing as a romantic couple.

You could have him leave and then let a few days pass before handing him the actual letter and going to B. In the book they do that and posters here have mentioned that the novelty of being out of the house wears off and it allows you a few days to be in contact to iron things out (kids visitation, finanacial stuff).

Maybe get him out on the 19th and stay wonderfully civil and on the 23rd give him the letter and go dark (explaining your pain dealing with the affair since you love him so very much)? Just an idea.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/09/09 08:05 PM
Well now more DRAMA. WH called me today which was totally unexpected. I said "Hello" and he said "My work would like me to tell you to stop emailing and calling them. There is nothing they are going to about this." I said, "Um I don't understand" Then he said "they want you to stop emailing them and calling them there is nothing for them to do." I said "Ok but I didn't email." then he said "well they just said to stop. Oh and BTW I have a list of people who you can talk to about it and they will get fired." I said "what do you mean?" and he said "there is a list of people you can call and when they tell you anything about it they will get fired because it goes against our confidentiality agreement."

I couldn't believe it. I mean there is a possible sexual harrassment case out of this because if others are uncomfortable with their relationship and have mentioned it to management and nothing came of it they can sue.

When I got off of the phone I felt totally hopeless. I mean I am trying very hard to keep the Plan A going and when these things come up it is hard to do. I have to go to work tonight too and things always tend to happen when I have to go to work.

My mom was here when I got the call and she started telling me how he was being a POSWH and really cruel and I didn't deserve this and in a few weeks after I get over him I can find someone better and move on. She said I had to grieve first and move on and I said I really want to save this marriage and I know that it is possible and right now he is being an a_- but I still love him tremendously and I believe in marriage. I don't believe in living in unhappiness but the worst thing we had in our M before this was that we BOTH didn't know how to meet eachother's ENs and we let our Taker do the talking and did a lot of LBs.

I am feeling pretty low right now because of our conversation on the phone. He wasn't angry he was snotty and cruel. I think he was enjoying it. I know I have to keep Plan A and meet emotional needs that I can but honestly when I get like this I almost want to give up.
Scotland,

Don't let WH's call shake you up too much....it is possible that they came down on him for the A and told him to keep it out of the workplace and he retaliated by calling you and telling you they told him to tell you to stop. The added bit about people who will be fired if they talk to you is possibly because they are making him uncomfortable and causing the employer to look more closely at WH and OW's activities.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/09/09 08:57 PM
ok I never thought of it that way. I thought of it as truth (SILLY ME). It is possible that they asked him to pass on the info but I only sent 2 letters and called once and I know it couldn't have been done in an official way because THEY would have sent me a letter or something.

I know that they aren't going to do anything about it and I actually have noone who is going to put pressure on them. It seems that WH has created a life where he can get away with this type of behaviour and still go about life as usual.

Oh well, thanx anyways. I just needed to vent and get a bit of a pick me up before I had to deal with work. They are understanding there and have done many things to support me but I don't want to be crying and sad there all of the time, i don't want to risk my job.
He didn't have the facts correct which backs up the idea that he and OW were "talked" to today. And neither of them was very happy about it.

Great job Plan Aing him! You are amazing!
Posted By: reading Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/09/09 09:16 PM
I agree with the other replies.

His call to you meant that

"BAMM!" you hit a target with the exposure.

Someone talked to him about it....LOLOL.

This is just a variation of the anger response.

Good job.

The stick of the plan A.
Posted By: catperson Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/09/09 09:38 PM
Originally Posted By: Brits_Brat
Scotland,

Don't let WH's call shake you up too much....it is possible that they came down on him for the A and told him to keep it out of the workplace and he retaliated by calling you and telling you they told him to tell you to stop. The added bit about people who will be fired if they talk to you is possibly because they are making him uncomfortable and causing the employer to look more closely at WH and OW's activities.
Exactly what I was going to say.

Good work!

NOW his work knows all about how he abuses workplace to screw women.

And don't you know that he is now TOPIC #1 all over that company!

No news travels faster than SF gossip!

Hah!
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/09/09 10:41 PM
What he said to you has OW written all over it.

I would expect him to be plenty mad, but his script is, "NOW YOU'VE DONE IT! I WAS JUST ABOUT TO PICK YOU AND NOW I'M NOT! NOW THERE'S NO CHANCE WE'LL EVER GET BACK TOGETHER AND IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT! YOU BLEW IT!!!"

OW's script is...well...pretty much what he said to you.

Neither one of them likes people at work knowing about this, guaranteed!
Originally Posted By: Neak
..(I think of it as peeing on stuff to make it mine again, lol.)



ROFL
Posted By: not2fun Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/09/09 10:48 PM
(((((Scotland)))))),

hurray

Can we say BULLSEYE?????

Yep, your phone call made HR sit up and NOTICE!!! What a GODDESS you are.....

And yep, it sounds like he didn't care for being in the "hot-seat"......

(and FYI, I was giddy with delight reading this.....nothing makes my day like a fellow GODDESS busting up a dirty, nasty A.... flirt)


Originally Posted By: Scotland
Oh and BTW I have a list of people who you can talk to about it and they will get fired.


I would look my very bestest, smell tantalizingly good, and have an amazing dinner on the stove, and when he walks in the door ask as sweet as apple pie....."Honey, did you bring home that list??"..... lashes

Call HIS bluff......(because I don't believe for ONE SECOND he made any such list...)

and if he asks stumbles and asks why you want it, just tell him you are thinking about taking him up on his offer....and then walk away and let the subject drop.....

sigh....stoopid waywards....

not2fun


ps...this is a major blow in the A....you did well my friend
Posted By: not2fun Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/09/09 10:50 PM
Originally Posted By: Neak
What he said to you has OW written all over it.

I would expect him to be plenty mad, but his script is, "NOW YOU'VE DONE IT! I WAS JUST ABOUT TO PICK YOU AND NOW I'M NOT! NOW THERE'S NO CHANCE WE'LL EVER GET BACK TOGETHER AND IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT! YOU BLEW IT!!!"

OW's script is...well...pretty much what he said to you.

Neither one of them likes people at work knowing about this, guaranteed!


YEP YEP AND YEP......
Quote:
Maybe something like "I look forward to the day when we will always be together," or something muchy like that


"Muchy", Neak? rotflmao Here I always thought your dad just wasn't romantic enough, and what I needed all along was for him to be "muchy."

"Give me a kiss, dear, and make it muchy." "Oh, goody, here's another muchy love card." I LOVE being your mother. You're the only one on MB I can make fun of and still be sure of being looooooooooooved! kiss

tl

P.S. I mailed your Christmas pkg. today, so you'd better watch out; you'd better not pout! naughty
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/09/09 11:11 PM
lashes Please tell me why!
Don't shout. It gives me a headache! MerryChristmas

tl
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/10/09 12:14 AM
Scotland:

Rule #1: Waynerds lie.

Rule #2: When in doubt, refer to rule #1.
Posted By: Vittoria Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/10/09 12:41 AM
Originally Posted By: Scotland
I said "Hello" and he said "My work would like me to tell you to stop emailing and calling them. There is nothing they are going to about this." I said, "Um I don't understand" Then he said "they want you to stop emailing them and calling them there is nothing for them to do." I said "Ok but I didn't email." then he said "well they just said to stop. Oh and BTW I have a list of people who you can talk to about it and they will get fired." I said "what do you mean?" and he said "there is a list of people you can call and when they tell you anything about it they will get fired because it goes against our confidentiality agreement."

aka ..... ' I got my a$$ hauled in the office today and got CRAP for having a GF cuz my WIFE squealed on me ...... WHAAAAAAAAAA ' cry

I soooo agree with what others have said about the call.

Don't get rattled, but be proud of yourself for writing the letter to HR and then following up on it.

I'd call his bluff too on the 'so called list of names', preferably when WH's mouth is full of his supper. lol

You are doing awesome Scotland! dance2
Posted By: Vittoria Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/10/09 12:44 AM
Originally Posted By: OurHouse
Scotland:

Rule #1: Waynerds lie.

Rule #2: When in doubt, refer to rule #1.

Absolutely!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/10/09 01:23 PM
Thank you people. When I was at work lat night I was thinking about the fact that he said stop emailing. I never sent one email. I figured you guys/gals were right because his work would have known that. Then I also figured that if it was an official response from his work they would have sent me a letter/email/phone call instead of getting him to call me and pass on a message.

On wednesday and thursday nights when I go to work, he comes in the door and I walk out. So, when he got home last night I walked up to his and rubbed my hand on his chest. He tried to get away and said "WHHAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTT" and I smiled and said "Have a good night tonight." Then I said "Love you boys. Be good for Daddy." and walked out the door.

I thought about asking for the list, but I didn't think I could pull it off without sounding snotty about it so I decided to either let it go.

When I went to bed, I made sure I snuggled up as close as I could and I put my hand on his back. Then when he rolled over I touched his cheek. That woke him up and he grunted and rolled over.

I was a little sneaky too. I looked at his cell phone and noticed that sometime this week he erased my picture from his cell phone. To get him back for this, I took 3 topless pictures with it. My hope is that he won't notice them, and then when he leaves and she gets crazy jealous when SHE finds them.

About the work response. I figure that what was probably said to them was something like "Keep your relationship out of the workplace." Even if they can't DO anything about it, now THEY KNOW. I am glad that I handled it well on the phone with him and gave him the reaction I did when he got home so I cold stay in Plan A.

I am trying to win the WAR sometimes I forget that fact. Thanx everyone.
Posted By: optimism Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/10/09 02:12 PM
Scotland, I don't have much time but I just wanted to say that I just finished reading your thread and have basically been following for some time.
You're a hero and I'm drawing inspiration from you.
thanks.
Optimism
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/10/09 02:13 PM
Quote:
I thought about asking for the list, but I didn't think I could pull it off without sounding snotty about it so I decided to either let it go.


Good call - you're the one on the ground, so you have to decide whether something will work for a given situation.

Keep that response handy though, as there may be a point where it will work. If he brings it up again, you could say sweetly, "Oh yes, please be sure to bring home that list you promised me, k? Have you tried the minestrone?"

Quote:
I was a little sneaky too. I looked at his cell phone and noticed that sometime this week he erased my picture from his cell phone. To get him back for this, I took 3 topless pictures with it. My hope is that he won't notice them, and then when he leaves and she gets crazy jealous when SHE finds them.


First of all, you are doing an AWESOME Plan A!!! I hope you put every bit of this effort into a dark and effective Plan B, too, because so far you're a natural.

Now, if only he sees these photos, that is wonderful. That is what needs to be your goal. The OW seeing them too would be icing, and of course you can't help hoping. Just don't make that your focus.

Plant notes, photos, undies, whatever, with the knowledge that no matter who finds them, each one strikes a blow against the A. If you have narrow expectations you're more prone to be disappointed. So keep yourself open, since almost everything that happens, though it seem good or bad at the time, is working for good in the long run. (A BS's LB's are just about the only things that are 100% in the "Bad" category. Everything else goes under "A-busting".)
Posted By: MicheleG Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/10/09 02:25 PM
Scotland, you're doing beautifully!! Love the pic switch!!

Neak your advice is great!!!
Quote:
I was a little sneaky too. I looked at his cell phone and noticed that sometime this week he erased my picture from his cell phone. To get him back for this, I took 3 topless pictures with it. My hope is that he won't notice them, and then when he leaves and she gets crazy jealous when SHE finds them.


ROFL...LOVE.THIS!

<Just make sure your kids don't get ahold of his cell phone, LOL...our kids recently found similar pics that I had taken and before I realized what was happening, they passed it around to all 4 of them, screeching "Moooooommmmm!!! What in the heck is this?!?!?!?" I told them to ask their dad. wink >

P.S. You are doing an AWESOME Plan A, I am very proud of you! You are almost there, keep it up and avoid those LBers like the plague!! Great job!
Originally Posted By: MarriedForever


P.S. You are doing an AWESOME Plan A, I am very proud of you! You are almost there, keep it up and avoid those LBers like the plague!! Great job!

hurray

DITTO !
Originally Posted By: MarriedForever


<Just make sure your kids don't get ahold of his cell phone, LOL...our kids recently found similar pics that I had taken and before I realized what was happening, they passed it around to all 4 of them, screeching "Moooooommmmm!!! What in the heck is this?!?!?!?" I told them to ask their dad. wink >





I don't remember you mentioning this before.


rotflmao
Originally Posted By: Pepperband
Originally Posted By: MarriedForever


<Just make sure your kids don't get ahold of his cell phone, LOL...our kids recently found similar pics that I had taken and before I realized what was happening, they passed it around to all 4 of them, screeching "Moooooommmmm!!! What in the heck is this?!?!?!?" I told them to ask their dad. wink >





I don't remember you mentioning this before.


rotflmao


Because it's embarrassing!! DH thought it was funny but I wasn't so sure. smile
Quote:

Because it's embarrassing!! DH thought it was funny but I wasn't so sure.


He was right! It IS funny! grin
Scotland,

You are doing such a GREAT job!
Originally Posted By: Marshmallow
Quote:

Because it's embarrassing!! DH thought it was funny but I wasn't so sure.


He was right! It IS funny! grin


It's a little bit funnier now but at the time I didn't think it was so funny...I didn't even know how to answer them! I am sure I turned about 10 different shades of red while I thrashed about the car trying to get my phone back from them! blush
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/10/09 05:39 PM
Thanx for the encouragement. I am definitely going to do my best with the Plan B. I also hope I can keep it up as well. I am just going to keep remembering that I am doing that to save myself any more pain.

I am only doing so well since I got the advice from you guys to do those things to get in their A. I am now having FUN with it and coming up with new ways to get in to his head. I figure it works in many ways. I get to have a space in his head that OW can't get to. I also get to speed up the jealous, insecure, crazy person who I am sure is in her. That part I won't actually know about since I will be in Plan B but I have a great imagination.

It is also easy to think of things that I can do that I will be able to keep up when he comes back. If I were doing things I wouldn't be able to do later, I think that would be unfair to him and more importantly, ME. The love notes, texts and flirting I most definitely will be able to keep up.

Thanx
Scotland,

Ohhh, you're soooo taking up space in his head right now!

Do you have any idea why your WH is waiting until Feb. to move out?
MF,

I can totally picture that!! Way too funny!
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/10/09 11:43 PM
Scotland,

Brilliant job!

clap clap clap
Posted By: Vittoria Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/10/09 11:45 PM
Hey Scotland, got any old family pics around, maybe from past Christmas's ???

Without too much overkill, you could get some out and display them,
pull at WH's heartstrings and remind him that he has a loving family and a wife
that believes in her M.

We've got some Xmas decorations for the tree that our kids made when they
were young. Old photos glued onto a small paper plate with a strand of yarn
for a hanger. These are some of my most favourite decorations.

I got a pic in my head of WH walking in the door and the kids are making
these same type of decorations only using family photos.

I'm sure you get my drift, just a thought.
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/11/09 12:14 AM
MarFor,if it's any comfort, the kids probably didn't see much.


BECAUSE THEY WERE ALL STRICKEN BLIND!!!!!
rotflmao
Posted By: not2fun Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/11/09 12:50 PM
Originally Posted By: Scotland

To get him back for this, I took 3 topless pictures with it.



((((Scotland))))),

Your my HERO!!!!.....Chin up and Chest out!!!!....your are doing wonderful....and I would have NEVER thought of this!!!!

keep it up darlin.... flirt

not2fun
Posted By: Dealan-de Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/11/09 03:04 PM
Originally Posted By: Neak
MarFor,if it's any comfort, the kids probably didn't see much.


BECAUSE THEY WERE ALL STRICKEN BLIND!!!!!


MF is absolutely gorgeous...but still, that's ROTFLMTO funny.
Originally Posted By: Dealan-de
Originally Posted By: Neak
MarFor,if it's any comfort, the kids probably didn't see much.


BECAUSE THEY WERE ALL STRICKEN BLIND!!!!!


MF is absolutely gorgeous...but still, that's ROTFLMTO funny.


OMG, I am sure they were too!!! If not blinded than at least emotionally scarred for life...what child wants to see that?!?!? BLECH!
Posted By: saynomore Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/11/09 03:23 PM
Scotland,

I have just read your entire thread after noticing your "Plan A" award. I am always amazed at how resilient we betrayed spouses can be when the person we loved and trusted most in the world has betrayed us.

That said, I would never allow semi nude pictures of myself into the hands of people who do not have my best interest at heart or anyone for that matter. A couple of clicks on her cell phone and those pics along with whatever story she/they choose to circulate goes to anyone she/they choose including being published to the internet. Those pics could very well become the reason that your WH left you or could come up in a custody hearing.

This site has invaluable information and advice but i feel that this was not a move to be applauded. Sorry to be a downer. You as well as all the BS on this site are always in my prayers.

God's Blessings,

Say
say, Scotland didn't send it to the OW, she sent these pics to her H...I still think it was a great Plan A move.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/11/09 04:13 PM
I get what Say is saying and it's a valid point. WH forwards to OW. She puts them on the 'net (or he does).

Later, in a custody battle over children, the photos come to light....
Why do I think it looks worse--in this hypothetical custody battle--for the husband who gives his own wife's sexy pictures to his skanky girlfriend, who then maliciously posts them online, than it does for the wife who gave them to her spouse in the first place?

tl

P.S. Not to say there are any naked pictures of me floating around anywhere. I'm much too inhibited. But I just can't see the unfaithful husband, and his vicious ho, looking like better parental units, in this scenario, than the wronged wife.
Posted By: saynomore Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/11/09 04:31 PM
It would be difficult if not immpossible to determine where those pics originated and to whom they were originally sent especially if they end up on the net.

God's Blessings,

Say
Many supposedly hidden, anonymous things are trackable, as numerous people have, to their dismay, discovered.

tl
Besides, it's spilled milk, anyway.

tl
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/11/09 05:36 PM
I didn't send them to anyone I took them with his phone. I believe that when he finds them he will actually delete them. He has been reading texts, messages, and emails and just deleting them.

My face isn't in the pictures so I don't know that they could actually PROVE who the pictures are of. I also don't know how taking these pictures would make me a bad parent. There are many people who are strippers, porn stars or even prostitutes who have children and these children don't get taken away.

I can see your point but they are tasteful. In Ontario, where we live, it is LEGAL to walk around topless.

I do think I am really getting in to his head though. Last night after work I went with a friend to a coffee shop. We got off at 1230am and I said "well, I guess I don't have to worry about him calling me since he doesn't care." At 215am my cell phone rang. It was him. He asked me if I was coming home tonight. I said "yes I am." He said "Ok" and then hung up. I left a few minutes later (we were leaving anyways) and when I got home and went to bed he was still awake but he didn't say anything. Neither did I and I went to sleep but I made sure I laid my hand on him and he didn't move away. At 5am I was so cold and I cuddled right up to him and he didn't move.

I know that it isn't great signs but it is something. One more week of Plan A and then it is on to Plan B. I still haven't found her family's info yet but I did my best. That's all I wanted to do so I could say that no matter which way this ends up I did the best I could.
Posted By: catperson Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/11/09 05:41 PM
She's overseas, right? What about searching the internet for facebook-type sites over there, and posting a thread asking if anyone knows her. You never know!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/11/09 05:48 PM
No she's not overseas, they work together. Her mom lives somewhere far up north. I know that her brother lives in the same city as she does, which is 20 minutes away from where I live. She had a my space account and a facebook account but they were set to very high privacy so no luck in finding any of her friends.

I am ok with it if I can't get her info because I did try.
Posted By: catperson Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/11/09 05:49 PM
Sorry, the Scotland must have thrown me off, lol, confused you with someone else.

Do you know her last name?
Originally Posted By: Scotland


I do think I am really getting in to his head though.

flirt




Quote:
I made sure I laid my hand on him and he didn't move away. At 5am I was so cold and I cuddled right up to him and he didn't move.

flirt


Frame a family photo, and display it in a place of honor in your home.
Make it a good one.
Smiling happy faces.
The day before you drop the Plan B bomb, remove it.
Put it in his stuff when you pack up his crap.
flirt
Posted By: reading Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/11/09 06:02 PM
Oh! Plan A can be SO MUCH FUN!

You are doing so very good. He will miss sleeping with you when he is gone. He really will.

And, I think the pics of your assets will not be a problem. You are his wife. He is living with you right now. He has seen your assets and anyone else who sees them, well, not YOUR fault!

Breasts ARE a part of a female's anatomy and used to feed infants (though men adore them, that isn't what they were built for! LOL).
Posted By: saynomore Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/11/09 06:09 PM
Check FB account again. New privacy settings have been established just this week. Friend lists are available to "everyone." I have not found a way to change mine. It would be worth a try.

God's Blessings,

Say
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/11/09 06:31 PM
no luck. She is no where to be found.
Quote:
Frame a family photo, and display it in a place of honor in your home.
Make it a good one.
Smiling happy faces.
The day before you drop the Plan B bomb, remove it.
Put it in his stuff when you pack up his crap.


Oh ... and put an "extra" copy of the Plan B letter behind the photo, inside the frame. (unseen)

If WH says he cannot re-read the Plan B letter because he threw it away ... have your IM say:

"Scotty thought of that. Open the frame and there is an extra copy behind the family photo."
grin
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/11/09 06:40 PM
Excellent Idea about the photo. I am definitely going to get to work on that one. laugh
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/11/09 06:49 PM
well i was doing a little more searching on OW and I actually found a facebook post that she wrote that had a lot of email addresses on it. I think I will be sending out a few emails. Well this is an interesting development. I hope her family members are on there.

Any suggestions as to what I write to her friends?
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/11/09 07:15 PM
Catperson-

I not only know her Last name, I know her bday, and her license plate number for her car. I know her previous address but she moved last October because I caused problems at her apartment when I showed up there one night.

I have a list of emails that may or may not be friends of hers on facebook but I wanna know what you think I should write when I contact them. I am going to be doing it on Monday morning, so any input would be appreciated.
My name is Scotland, and I'm writing you to ask for your help. My WH is having an A w/ your friend, OW. I very much want to save my M, but cannot work on it as long as she is involved w/ my WH. Would you please talk to OW and encourage her to do the right thing and leave my WH alone?
If anyone writes back and is sympathetic to your sitch, ask them if they'd help you find OW's address and/or other friends or family of OW so that you can contact them.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/11/09 07:40 PM
OMG ok so I looked back at that page and now her profile is OPEN and I am now messaging whoever has the same last name as her. WOW KARMA is AWESOME today. And to think I was about to give up on finding her family. I am using what you wrote Marsh laugh
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/11/09 07:44 PM
this is the message I am sending out

My name is BS, and I'm writing you to ask for your help. My Husband, WH is having an Affair OW. I very much want to save my Marriage, but cannot work on it as long as she is involved with my Husband. Would you please talk to OW and encourage her to do the right thing and leave my Husband alone?

Thank You
Posted By: Lexxxy Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/11/09 07:49 PM
You rock Scotland!

This is freakin awesome!!!
Posted By: Lexxxy Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/11/09 07:51 PM
I would include something about saving your children from the loss of their family and having their father in their daily lives....
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/11/09 07:53 PM
I believe in Karma and I guess it is in my favour today. I gotta pick the kids up from school now but I sent 5 messages to family members and I did it stategically to try to get her mom and brother. He is gonna be MAD at me. Well, i guess more Plan A. Maybe I will send him a flirty text right now laugh
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/11/09 07:55 PM
I thought of that but WH will say that I am using the kids. There is a picture of me with them on my facebook account which is where I am sending the messages from. I think they will understand. laugh
I would do all the exposing at once, all today...like a bandaid you want to rip off all at one time. If you drag this exposure out you will negate the hard work you have done in Plan A. Because the exposure is being done so late you might consider extending your Plan A just a few days so he leaves with a sweet and not a bitter taste in his mouth...
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/11/09 08:07 PM
Well I think I am done with the exposing now. She has 289 friends but I wrote to all of the people with the same last name as hers. I am sure the word will spread around the family if I didn't get the brother and mother. I am still going to Plan A till Friday. We are all off next Saturday and I could send my kids to my sister's house and do it then. I am not totally sure. I am still going to Plan A and we will see what happens with this now.

I really needed a pick me up to end my GLORIOUS week ;D
Posted By: saynomore Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/11/09 08:13 PM
Check your own settings on FB too. I just checked mine. Many of the things in my profile that were previously hidden from all but my friends are now visible to everyone including my photos and info! I am considerind deleting my account.

God's Blessings,

Say
Posted By: reading Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/11/09 08:13 PM
Yes, he will be livid. The waywards hate the fantasy bubble being disturbed and they obviously don't think that they, themselves are worth fighting for (must have low opinions of their 'entitled' selves)

Keep the bravery through any stuff he flings your way. Calmness. Kindness. Lovingness despite the dreadful situation.

Plan A through the days til B.
Posted By: not2fun Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/11/09 08:13 PM
Originally Posted By: MarriedForever
say, Scotland didn't send it to the OW, she sent these pics to her H...I still think it was a great Plan A move.



ITA!!!!!.....when in Plan A a BS is sometimes torn between what they can/should/ought/should not/can't do...and sometimes when one is too busy weighting out the pro's and con's they miss a great Plan A opportunity......

If her marriage doesn't make it, Scotland can look back at her Plan A and know she did EVERYTHING possible to try and save it.....

Kudos to you again....

not2fun
Posted By: Vittoria Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/11/09 08:43 PM
There's no reason to stop at just her family for sending out a message.
This OW is a piece of poop on a stick right now, if you can rock her world
upside down, go for it.
She will for certain go ballistic and take it out on WH.
The idea being that WH will major LB'd by her and she may seem
more trouble than what she is worth.

Go for the whole list of friends.
Remember you are only stating the truth, you aren't slandering her.
My understanding about FB is they reset everyone's settings, but you just need to manually set yourself up to the way you want it again...
Originally Posted By: StillHereMakingIt
My understanding about FB is they reset everyone's settings, but you just need to manually set yourself up to the way you want it again...

When I logged into FB for the first time since they made their changes, I had to click on a pop-up to acknowledge the changes. Getting past that, I found all my changes as I had left them (but I don't have a lot of granular restrictions, either).
Vitt- I don't think FB allows mass mailings like that; spam controls and such...

Scotland my dear, you are AMAZING! Whether you get a chance at healing your M or just your 'self', please know that there are many BS's on here that applaud you and support you!

I wish I had had the b*lls you're showing when I found out of my H's infidelity; it took me a year or so to find mine!
Originally Posted By: Vittoria
She will for certain go ballistic and take it out on WH.
The idea being that WH will major LB'd by her and she may seem
more trouble than what she is worth.


Quoted For Truth. The Other Man getting furious at me and taking it out on my wife was a key, critical moment. It was the moment she stopped falling deeper into the fog and began to have moments of lucidity. Just had to get that Love Bank balance down below the "Other Person can do no wrong and I'm so in luuuuvvvv" level.

Another key was that while he was furious, and she was furious... I wasn't. I stayed calm and didn't respond with anger.
Posted By: Vittoria Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/11/09 09:43 PM
Bottlerocket, I'm thinking that if she had the venue to send to the 'same last names',
then she would be able to send to all OW's friends.
broken_soul did this I'm fairly sure.

The only thing I wondered was, don't you have to be accepted as a friend before you can send someone else's friend a message.
I'm not FB savvy, I diddle on my kids FB.
I was prepared to do this with FOW's FB friends but thought I had to befriend her
first, which I figured she would deny.
Originally Posted By: Vittoria
Bottlerocket, I'm thinking that if she had the venue to send to the 'same last names',
then she would be able to send to all OW's friends.
broken_soul did this I'm fairly sure.

The only thing I wondered was, don't you have to be accepted as a friend before you can send someone else's friend a message.
I'm not FB savvy, I diddle on my kids FB.
I was prepared to do this with FOW's FB friends but thought I had to befriend her
first, which I figured she would deny.


You know, I'm still learning FB myself, so it's worth a try, the most FB could do is not deliver the msg. I do know for sure that you don't have to be a friend to somebody to send them a msg.
Originally Posted By: Vittoria
Bottlerocket, I'm thinking that if she had the venue to send to the 'same last names',
then she would be able to send to all OW's friends.
broken_soul did this I'm fairly sure.

The only thing I wondered was, don't you have to be accepted as a friend before you can send someone else's friend a message.
I'm not FB savvy, I diddle on my kids FB.
I was prepared to do this with FOW's FB friends but thought I had to befriend her
first, which I figured she would deny.


One way around that is to do individual friend requests to all of HER friends. When you're doing a friend request, you also have the option of sending a "message" with it. Those that want to communicate will accept her request.
Quote:
There's no reason to stop at just her family for sending out a message.


I agree. Go after her friends too.

You want to put as much pressure on her to end the A as possible. No reason to stop w/ just her family.
Grab her friends, before she has a chance to relock her FB.
Posted By: catperson Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/11/09 11:24 PM
After all, she's cheating with a married man. She deserves no mercy.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/12/09 12:34 AM
I noticed that about the FB changes. Went into my page and my privacy settings were maintained at "friends only". But my pages and groups are visible to all now---no way to change that. I don't like that.

However, I was able to get into a bit more of OW's FB page photos because some of her friends hadn't changed their privacy settings and commented on her photos. I wish she weren't so darn good looking. Same age as me and looks 10 years younger!
Posted By: lildoggie Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/12/09 12:44 AM
Flick and I have FB and when I checked ours this morning every single setting is set to "friends only". if someone searches for either of us they do not even get to see a profile picture. Just our IRL names.

Also I have sent people messages on FB without ever befriending them, I assume it's because they have not disabled that fuinction themselves.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/12/09 12:49 AM
Mine are set to "friends only" but there is a button you can click that says something like "see your profile the way the public views it" and when I did that, it brought up my picture, my pages and my groups. Almost everyone to whom I'm NOT friended---I can see their pics, pages and groups.
Originally Posted By: princessmeggy
One way around that is to do individual friend requests to all of HER friends. When you're doing a friend request, you also have the option of sending a "message" with it. Those that want to communicate will accept her request.


Can you say..Cut and paste? lol

Great job scotland you GO girlfren. Keep us posted and stay strong..
Posted By: lildoggie Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/12/09 01:02 AM
Ahh, well when I did the same I got a blank page with a blue face, mt IRL name and a messages that said 'Lil only shares info with her friends; or something similar.

Under the privacy settings have you set EVERYTHING to friends only? Setting things to friends of friends makes more stuff publicaly avaialble, and I have discovered that since PQ and I were both Flicks friends for a while, that even tho he deleted that account and has a completly new one (didnt just change the old one) I still can see her FB page. I assume its because of the friends of friends setting since I have asked a few FB friends to go look and they get blocked.
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/12/09 01:21 AM
You can send messages without being friends. They have the option to block you if they don't want additional messages, but by then who cares?

FWIW, I'm very much in favor of the pix. There's always some risk of something being spread, but to me it would be worth it. (Unless some really kinky photos existed and then got out, I don't think it would impact custody. Most judges aren't going to care that a wife sent risque pix to her lawful husband.)

Everybody has their own threshold on this, and that's ok.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/12/09 01:25 AM
Lil, I wonder if the FB privacy settings are more lenient in the USA. EVERYTHING I have is set to "ONLY FRIENDS". I double and triple checked.
Posted By: catperson Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/12/09 03:58 AM
Originally Posted By: OurHouse
I noticed that about the FB changes. Went into my page and my privacy settings were maintained at "friends only". But my pages and groups are visible to all now---no way to change that. I don't like that.

However, I was able to get into a bit more of OW's FB page photos because some of her friends hadn't changed their privacy settings and commented on her photos. I wish she weren't so darn good looking. Same age as me and looks 10 years younger!
That's because she didn't get stuck working three jobs to support her husband.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/12/09 04:26 AM
I am sure she realized what happened and change her FB privacy settings. It is because of the new settings that they put in. I got one response back and all it said was "I know OW but I don't know you". WH is very distant today but totally not talking about any of it.

I can't get in trouble with FB because I am just looking up her friends and cut and pasting the message over and over again.

GL to me laugh
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/12/09 04:46 AM
I kept trying to touch him, my new favourite game, but he kept trying to get away. He still hasn't found the photos on his phone because they are still there. He erased the texts and threw away the letters without even acknowledging them to me. I don't need him to talk to me about them, I know by him pulling away that they are getting to him.

Just before I came down to check on my thread, I touched his shoulder. He jumped and then pulled his blanket over his shoulder and tucked it right in. I waited a couple of minutes and then I came down. I will touch him again while I am in bed with him and I will cuddle as close as I can. He is the one who chose to keep sleeping in the bed after all

As for why he is waiting until February, it was my idea at first. He told me he was thinking about leaving me on September 20th. I told him that he could leave November 1st. He told me that was too soon. Then I said that if he didn't leave then, then he wouldn't be able to leave until February so as to not ruin Xmas for the kids or our youngest son's bday who is in January.

The funny thing is that when I talked to OW on that bad night, she made it sound like it was WH's idea. I made sure that I told her that it was funny she thought that was his idea, but it was actually mine. I was hoping to poke a couple of holes in her fantasy bubble of him. Even on the keylogger he made himself sound good. The first thing he said was that he would brb because he was making dinner. I yelled at the screen "liar, I already fed the kids and you were just warming up the dinner I left for you. TURD"

Well, one day their little fantasy bubble will crack. Who knows how long and where I will be then but either way I will be happy to know I did everything in my power to save my M.

I still have HOPE and FAITH. Sometimes the universe sends me funny little signs of encouragement and sometimes it sends me strange cruel signs.

I will share this one funny incident with you. I work at the customer service counter of a MAJOR retailer. I had a lady come up to me and ask if I could page her friend for her. I said "Sure what is her name?" She said OW's name (NO JOKE). I inhaled deeply but did my job. She walked away. Then she returned a minute later and said "Do you know So-in SO" I said "Yes I went to college with him" She said, "I used to date him and he took me to your wedding." I just smiled and she walked away. Then I looked up and said "Now that was MEAN" My friends said things like that could only happen to me. Gotta laugh it off sometimes. laugh
Posted By: reading Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/12/09 05:05 AM
Waywards sure DO embellish/lie to their other people.

Mine would tell his that he took our youngest to a movie to impress her with his gentleness as a father and would leave out the fact that I went with them! LOL. And so on and so on.

You know that they have to lie to the other people. That is why the affairs can not realistically survive the test of time. Sure, they lie to us but hopefully the marriages were not originally built on lies....the lies came to live the double lives. Their bedrock is more solid than the affairs are.
Originally Posted By: Scotland
....Just before I came down to check on my thread, I touched his shoulder. He jumped and then pulled his blanket over his shoulder and tucked it right in. I waited a couple of minutes and then I came down. I will touch him again while I am in bed with him and I will cuddle as close as I can. He is the one who chose to keep sleeping in the bed after all

Hehe...rofl

yur doin great lol reminds me of an old Bill Cosby album about his brother Russell and him in bed as kids. "Your Pajamas are touching my side of the bed" and one of them starts yelling "Stop touching meee!"
Originally Posted By: reading
Waywards sure DO embellish/lie to their other people.

Mine would tell his that he took our youngest to a movie to impress her with his gentleness as a father and would leave out the fact that I went with them! LOL. And so on and so on.


Mine (on chat that I captured with a keylogger) would tell OW he had to 'go put ds9 to bed.' Gag. He has put ds to bed maybe 4 times in 9 years and certainly NOT that night. He had to go because he knew I was suspicious. What a joke.

I kept the keylogger on several weeks before I busted him out...another time he decided to make a garden for me (something I'd asked for for a few years) and told OW on chat that he was doing it but failed to mention that it was FOR me. I opened my FB wide open and posted pics and said, 'Look at what my sweet husband made for me!'
Posted By: not2fun Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/12/09 03:15 PM
((((Scotland)))),

Good morning sweetie!!...Good job on the FB exposure. You are doing wonderful....

I LOVE that you have made a game of the touching.... grin
It's little things like this that help keep your sanity during this....speaking of sanity, what have you done for yourself lately???....A new sweater perhaps??, maybe a pedi???...Remember what Pep said, take care of your Taker from time to time to keep it at bay when the going gets tough....It's hard to keep her still!!!!

Are you eating healthy??..(or at all....)
Getting enough sleep???...(do we really ever???)
Exercising at all??....(a kickboxing class will do WONDERS for your Taker....you can imagine OW or WH while punching the crap outta that bag...as long as your can refrain from hurting yourself???)
Have you taken up a new hobby??...(besides the "touching" game)

This is all very important to YOUR well being.

You are doing an amazing job....I am so very proud of you....


not2fun

ps...Don't waste too much time worrying about her being pretty or looking 10 yrs younger...On the inside, she is an empty, hollow shell of a real human being.....Ya know, I personally think Naomi Campbell is gorgeous, but she is a real turd of a person......not somebody I would truly want to have as a friend.
Quote:
As for why he is waiting until February, it was my idea at first. He told me he was thinking about leaving me on September 20th. I told him that he could leave November 1st. He told me that was too soon. Then I said that if he didn't leave then, then he wouldn't be able to leave until February so as to not ruin Xmas for the kids or our youngest son's bday who is in January.


This is interesting. Does your WH really want to leave you? Maybe in his twisted wayward mind, he's hoping there will be another reason in Feb. why he can't leave.

I don't think he really wants to leave you.

Oh, he doesn't want anything to get in the way of the high he's getting from his A...hense the pulling away from you. But, he's hestitant about leaving you.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/12/09 05:53 PM
Plan A...

Give him a reason to stay.

Make the REAL Scotland a better choice than the fantasy of OW.

Keep up the pressure on the AFFAIR rather than on him.

Make staying and ending the affair easier than leaving and continuing it.

In other words...

Keep doing what you're doing.

Mark
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/12/09 09:52 PM
Ok so I came home from work ready to make dinner. WH had already made dinner and said "You and the boys can eat. I'm not hungry." I said "oh no? why aren't you hungry?" He said "I've been eating all day long" Then I noticed that he had also done laundry and baked brownies. He asked me if it was busy at work and I said "Yes" and he said "oh cuz I was gonna go look at stuff" I responded with "Oh looking for christmas presents?". He NEVER buys anything for anyone for xmas, bdays etc. That's always me.

Then he started getting ready to go out. Just before he left I walked up to him held his arm and said "I cannot accept a M where you have a gf. Thanx for making dinner for us." and then I gave his arm a squeeze and walked away. I believe he is either intending to go see her or buy her a christmas gift. He followed me and said "does that mean that if I come home tonight after you are asleep I will be locked out of the room?" I simply said "I will not talk to you when you are angry" He said "I am NOT angry. I just want a yes or no." I said "You are breaking my heart." Then he said "So I guess that means that you ARE gonna lock me out." I said "I already invited you back into my room." He said "Oh I like how it's YOUR room," (oops I know I shoulda said OUR room, I goofed) "I guess I am sleeping in the truck then." I simply responded with "you are breaking my heart, thanks again for dinner." I didn't want to engage with him because I was already close to crying.

he just left. I hope I handled myself ok because I don't want to ruin all of the hard work I have done so far. It was a little funny right before he started getting ready to go out. I had written him a note this morning and left it on his wallet. I thought he would have found it before then but apparently not. He looked at it and then walked in to the living room with it trying to figure out what to do with it. Then he walked behind me, in to the kitchen and threw it away. Well, at least he read it first hehehehehe
Posted By: not2fun Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/12/09 10:11 PM
(((((Scotland)))))),

you did very well honey. You made your point, exceedingly well, especially since you'll be heading into Plan B soon. It is GOOD that he knows your pain, as long as it is delivered in a non-LBing fashion (which was something I was SOOOOOO not good at doing....). You did great....

Now, don't lock him out...... in fact, I think its might be a little warm tonight...better wear something "light", that is, unless you prefer the buff


not2fun
Posted By: reading Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/12/09 10:29 PM
Your latest interaction was spot on plan A....good!

Keep up the plan.

I agree that it might be a bit warmish and you might want to sleep appropriately....lol.
Posted By: catperson Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/12/09 10:30 PM
You were amazing! He IS afraid of upsetting you. He wants both of you. So, you are doing exactly what you need to do - showing him how amazing it is at home, and also showing him that you have boundaries. Great work! He will definitely remember all you're doing. And what YOU have to offer compared to her...well, I wouldn't place too many bets on her.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/12/09 10:45 PM
Thanx. I was having a bit of a down day. I was feeling a little anxious at work and when I got home and saw all that he did I was wondering WHY? Then he said he was going out. Light Bulb on. Then I did notice during the time when he was questioning me about locking him out (which of course I never intended on doing again) I noticed that this time he didn't threaten me with going to sleep in someone else's bed. He did that last time.

I also noticed that he is trying to be extra nice to the kids and that is driving me NUTTY. Don't get me wrong, I WANT him to be good to our kids but him leaving is the worst thing he could do to them and that's what he is intending to do.

A couple of my friends said that maybe he is trying to give them good memories of him before he is gone. I think it is because he is feeling GUILTY and he is trying to make up for it.

Now with only 6 days left till Plan B, I wonder a little. What if he DOESN'T go? I am planning on putting his things on the front porch and putting the Plan B letter on top. Then I send the kids to my sister's and......well that's where I am stuck. Should I be around? Some of my friends think I should be gone too but I will just sit and wonder if he is gone yet.

He should be home by 6 but since it is my birthday and he is trying to avoid me, I think he will actually come home late. I intend to send him a text at 630 if he isn't home yet saying "You need to come home, it's important" After that, I don't know what to say or do. Any suggestions?
Quote:
He said "Oh I like how it's YOUR room,"


You see? This is what I mean. He's NOT thinking like a man who's at all ready to leave you.

Why wouldn't he think of it as YOUR room? If he's planning on moving out in Feb..

You did BEAUTIFULLY today! Couldn't have done better.

You are really remarkable.
Quote:
I was feeling a little anxious at work and when I got home and saw all that he did I was wondering WHY?


I hope you praised him for it. Admired him.

Quote:
A couple of my friends said that maybe he is trying to give them good memories of him before he is gone. I think it is because he is feeling GUILTY and he is trying to make up for it.


Guilt is part of it for sure. But, I also think he is actually giving to YOU, Scotland. This might be the only way he can give back to you for the way you've been Plan Aing him, where he feels as though he isn't "cheating" on OW.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/12/09 11:12 PM
I did tell him thanx for doing the laundry and I mentioned him making the brownies.

Marsh-BTW thanx a bunch, I had never thought of it that way and I actually teared up a bit. It does seem a little crazy to me that he would worry about cheating on OW. That is just NUTTY but I understand it. He is in love with her and he does have some values even if they did get a bit screwy in our M.

I think I may send him a text message tonight too just to put a wrench in to their alone time. Maybe something a little flirty about being in bed with him tonight and how I can't wait. Wow Plan A can be fun when you make it in to games. I almost look at it as sweet revenge with a twist.
Posted By: not2fun Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/13/09 12:12 AM
Originally Posted By: Marshmallow
Quote:
He said "Oh I like how it's YOUR room,"


You see? This is what I mean. He's NOT thinking like a man who's at all ready to leave you.

Why wouldn't he think of it as YOUR room? If he's planning on moving out in Feb..


It's funny you wrote this Marsh....It made me think of some VERY WISE words Believer used to tell me, "He's very attached to you"....and MY WH had already MOVED out when I started PLAN A.....

Heed these observations Scot.....they are the words for those who have been around this stuff

Oh, and as far as what to do on Plan B day, I'm gonna defer to Pep and the others on this. I never did a Plan B because the A did end when that time came, so I don't have as much experience in how that day goes....but I'll be praying for you all the same.....

not2fun
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/13/09 12:26 AM
Not2fun- thanx for all of the wisdom and support so far you have been awesome laugh I am looking forward to what the vets have to say about my Plan B day. I would hope that I wouldn't have to ask him to leave but I really couldn't live through another month and a half of this.

I know in my heart that he does have doubts about leaving but I feel like if I didn't ask him to go that we would be in a holding pattern for a long time and I would give up on us because my Love bank would be empty.

I know at first he said things to me like " A lot can happen between now and February" to which my response was (keep in mind PRE Plan A) "Yea you could get hit by a meteor".

Sometimes I feel like maybe I shouldn't ask him to leave but then I think about it again and I know that it is the right thing to do. I am just afraid that it will be done then. That is the hardest part but I do know that it won't be done BECAUSE I asked him to leave but because he didn't want to be with me.

The hardest part in all of this is the feelings sometimes that what if OW CAN meet all of his En's and he IS happier with her. Well I guess I will let it play out and see where the universe takes me laugh
Posted By: Vittoria Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/13/09 12:30 AM
Originally Posted By: not2fun
speaking of sanity, what have you done for yourself lately??

This is an important part of Plan A .... looking after YOU.
Plan A is emotionally draining and it can be easy to crash and burn.
Your adrenaline is keeping you going right now, not to mention the anticipation of Plan B, and let's throw in the craziness of Christmas chaos. crazy

I agree with Marshmallow, I don't think that he really wants to leave.
He'd be gone by now, no excuses, just plain gone.
As for loving OW, he is more likely infatuated with her attention and the needs that she is meeting right now, Admiration being the #1.
This is the one that you should concentrate on and be sure to meet, as well as the others that
you've identified as best as possible.

Along with everything else that you are doing, remind him for example .....
how well he has provided for your family,
how great he looks in those old jeans,
how you love watching him shovel the snow,
how you love his smell when he gets out of the shower,
etc....
Posted By: not2fun Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/13/09 12:38 AM
(((((Scotland)))))),


Originally Posted By: Scotland
I would hope that I wouldn't have to ask him to leave but I really couldn't live through another month and a half of this.


I can't say I blame you. You have been through this for 2 yrs. now. That is a LONG time. I did Plan A for 3 1/2 months, BUT my WH had moved out. It made it a little more bearable that he wasn't around all the time for me to experience his poopheadness....I have much ADMIRATION for those who do Plan A while living with the wayward.

Originally Posted By: scot
I know in my heart that he does have doubts about leaving but I feel like if I didn't ask him to go that we would be in a holding pattern for a long time and I would give up on us because my Love bank would be empty.


This is so very true and very wise of you to acknowledge this. If most WS's had their way they would fence-sit indefinately..... puke

Originally Posted By: scot
I am just afraid that it will be done then.


This is EVERY BS's fear on here that has ever done a Plan B. Very normal.....


Originally Posted By: scot
The hardest part in all of this is the feelings sometimes that what if OW CAN meet all of his En's and he IS happier with her. Well I guess I will let it play out and see where the universe takes me laugh


Don't let those "what if's" get to you. And REMEMBER, this Affair is based on dishonesty, lies, and deception. No relationship can ever last being born from this nature. And if it did last, then you will be well rid of him. YOU deserve better than a relationship based on these "virtues".

And remember too, you have his history, intimate knowledge of his likes/dislikes/desires/dreams/fears.....

((((Scotland)))))

Stay strong honey.....you have a heart of gold....

not2fun
Posted By: catperson Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/13/09 12:42 AM
Quote:
I am just afraid that it will be done then.
The thing is, if he is cheating, what do you have? I say, all or nothing, right? So Plan B is to prove that - to him and to yourself.

I truly think that most men's fantasy is multiple wives, women all over them, fawning on them, stroking their ego.

The thing is, most of the world doesn't work that way. But that doesn't stop some men from trying, lol.
Posted By: Vittoria Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/13/09 12:44 AM
I'm not experienced in Plan B either, mine wasn't MB style, very spur of the moment, more like Plan Rage, get the $#@! out.

I can tell you that I finally felt like I had some peace, since I didn't have to carry on feeling like a two-faced person.
(he was only gone 6 days so I didn't have the hard part of plan B where I missed him after a lengthy time away)

According to my WH (at the time), he needed to be gone from me and his family to
reflect on what he had done and decide what he wanted in his future.

I put a message on his phone the day he left. You know the one on the screen that is the main frame that you always see. Does that make any sense?

It said 'Find the path home' (had to do all one word since it wouldn't allow too many characters.)
Scotland i have been reading your whole thread. I'd like to say i wish i had your strenght and courage when i tried to save my marriage. If i had well maybe things would have been different. You are doing everything that your WH wants you to do. It is driving him insane on the inside. One day he will tell you that. He can't possibly admit it now cause that would be like telling you his lying about his "relationship" with the OW. BLAHHH... you can do this and you seem to be doing it the right way. I have high hopes for you.

And not2fun is a good source of encouragement. You two remind me of each other in the way things are kind of unfolding for you.

Just stay strong for you and your kids and know that no matter what happens you three will be ok!!!
Posted By: reading Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/13/09 12:56 AM
How I went to B.

I called the wayward on the phone in the afternoon and told him I had reached my limit of being able to deal with the pain of him being involved with OW and he needed to leave that evening.

I did see him that evening and we discussed some things as he was going (kids, how much I loved him and hoped being gone would help him feel better about being married to me, etc).

He stayed at a friends for a while til he had a place to move into of his own.

About five days after he left.....I sent him a plan B letter (and OW got a copy too).

He tried to test my boundaries a few times by hijacking me but I was kind and firm each time telling him he needed to not contact me as mentioned in my letter to him. I told him each time "I love you".

I am still riding the plan B train.

You then will feel very grief stricken cause you will miss him, you will get stronger and start to live a real, true to yourself life and time will tell what will happen. We never really had control over anyone but ourselves anyway.
Quote:
As for why he is waiting until February, it was my idea at first. He told me he was thinking about leaving me on September 20th.


He said he was only THINKING ABOUT leaving you.

Quote:
I told him that he could leave November 1st. He told me that was too soon.


Nov. 1st was too SOON for him.

Quote:
Then I said that if he didn't leave then, then he wouldn't be able to leave until February so as to not ruin Xmas for the kids or our youngest son's bday who is in January.


And he was OK w/ this b/c in his mind, "ALOT CAN HAPPEN BETWEEN NOV. AND FEB." ..like finding another reason why he needs to stay.

Quote:
One thing that she said to me really does hurt though and I just need to get it off my chest. My H and I had always said that if anything was to happen that he would not take the kids from me. While I was talking to her (and letting her fight HIS battles) she said that my WH would have total access to the kids and that she wouldn't stand in their way (in response to my saying that he would only be spending about 13 hours a week with them).

I responded by saying, "Yea but only until a lawyer got involved" and then she said "Oh well I can just take them from you then. I have the room and I don't mind." I was so upset that I just said out loud "Oh you want to take the kids away from me, their house, family school and friends" Her response was "Oh no there's a house that's for rent down the street from you and we will just move there"

I didn't react to that but after I hung up I asked my WH if he was going to try to take the kids and he said no. I know that there is no reason to take them away from me. I just was so upset and I let her get to me. OH I am not happy about OW right now.


This tells you that OW and WH did NOT PLAN how they could be together.

Quote:
He said "Oh I like how it's YOUR room,"


This coupled w/ his "alot can happen between now and then..." statement tells you he STILL doesn't have a plan.

B/c he doesn't want to have one.

He's a cake eater.





If he's worried that you will kick him out of your bed b/c he went to see OW...

He's gonna flip out when you kick him out of the house.

Why should he worry if you kick him out of the bedroom? Shouldn't that be the perfect excuse to move into HER bed?

He threatened to do that the first time you did it. But, he didn't. He just kept insisting that he sleep in your bed.

I think you're gonna have trouble getting him to leave the home.
Posted By: catperson Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/13/09 02:40 AM
True, BUT, it will also have a far bigger effect on him when she goes to Plan B.
Originally Posted By: catperson
True, BUT, it will also have a far bigger effect on him when she goes to Plan B.


Oh, yes! I totally agree.

He's going to be devastated.

I just want Scot to be prepared if he refuses to leave. Which I am 98% sure he will.
Quote:
Now with only 6 days left till Plan B, I wonder a little. What if he DOESN'T go? I am planning on putting his things on the front porch and putting the Plan B letter on top. Then I send the kids to my sister's and......well that's where I am stuck. Should I be around? Some of my friends think I should be gone too but I will just sit and wonder if he is gone yet.


I think you ought to have a couple of your friends over when he arrives home and sees his things on the porch.

He might be less likely to refuse to leave if your friends are there.

Plus, it is always a good idea to have witnesses....just in case.
Originally Posted By: Marshmallow
Originally Posted By: catperson
True, BUT, it will also have a far bigger effect on him when she goes to Plan B.


Oh, yes! I totally agree.

He's going to be devastated.

I just want Scot to be prepared if he refuses to leave. Which I am 98% sure he will.


There is no way my XWH would have agreed to leave without the pressure of a court hearing that was about to take place THAT day...he delayed signing the separation agreement until 12:00 noon with a 1:00 p.m. court time set.

I am always amazed on these boards how BSs just ask WSs to leave and---they leave!!!
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/13/09 04:27 PM
Scotland:

I am AMAZED...simply AMAZED and in total awe of the stellar plan A you have been doing.

Yes, you are going to have to go to Plan B because your WH is not ending his affair. But remember, Plan B is to PROTECT YOU. It's not about him at all. You are removing yourself from the drama.

If you execute Plan B as well as you execute Plan A, then no matter what happens, I think you're going to be fine. If your WH gets his head out of his a$$ and comes home, then you will become a MB success story. If not, you will still be a success story because while you are in Plan B, you will learn how to livew your life on your own, respect yourself and prove to yourself that you can be the rock upon which your kids can lean.

ETA: And as Cat said, if he doesn't come home, but runs all the way TO the OW----then you are still better off. You can't be in a marriage with three people!
Quote:
I simply responded with "you are breaking my heart, thanks again for dinner." I didn't want to engage with him because I was already close to crying.


WONDERFUL !!! hurray

Even the "close to crying" part.

Waynerds convince themselves (with the help of OW) that "everyone will be happy once these changes are made".
Waynerds also convince themselves (again, with the help of OW) that the wife really does not care all that much for WH.

Can you SEE the power and the strength and the love infused within the messages you are now sending WH? He's so much more conflicted than he was a week ago. grin

GREAT verbal and non-verbal communication.

Too bad about the "my room" comment, but everyone has a slip. Everyone.
hug

There is NO comeback to the "You are breaking my heart.". Real consequences of Plan A ~~~> I am breaking my wife's heart and she is being good to me.

You have made tremendous progress since the start of this thread.

You have hundreds of supporters. Lurkers too.

AND, you are inspiring bravery for dozens of lurkers too afraid to post.

You don't know it yet, but you are becoming a heroine ... and paying it forward.
Originally Posted By: Marshmallow


I think you ought to have a couple of your friends over when he arrives home and sees his things on the porch.

He might be less likely to refuse to leave if your friends are there.

Plus, it is always a good idea to have witnesses....just in case.


I like this idea.

Be sure to tell your friends to say NOTHING.
Just be there.

They will be tempted to bust his chops on your behalf, don't allow this when you are having your good-bye.

Have the women sitting watching TV. Present, but silent.
Scot, are you going to change the locks the day you go into Plan B?

If you are (and you really SHOULD but I am not sure about the laws where you are) then there really shouldn't be much of a concern...his stuff will be on the front porch with the PBL and you will either not be there, or you will be locked safely inside with your family/friends/support team.

I went into Plan B by handing my FWH my letter (he was already staying at his parent's house). Later that night I packed up all of his stuff and left it on the driveway with my IM letting him know it was ready for him. I changed the locks that night as well and he was very shocked when he tried to get into the house and couldn't.

I didn't talk to him again until Plan B ended about 6 weeks later...I stayed very, very dark. But my PB was a little different in that we had been in a false recovery...when I found out that the A had never ended, I did MASSIVE NUCLEAR exposure and went straight into Plan B. He was not in contact with the OW while in Plan B because my exposure did what it was supposed to do and killed the A.

It also was the beginning of clearing the fog once I was not allowing the cake eating anymore.

Hope this helps...
You have concerns that "what if?" OW fills WH's ENs better than you.

Here is something for you to read, and think about. NOT something for you to share with WH.


LINK to "Why do affair marriages fail"

Your WH and OW are not getting married, however, the principles about the built-in flaws of that relationship still apply.

The crux of the message is:


Quote:
He gives 12 reasons for this phenomenon:

1. Intervention of reality

2. Guilt

3. Disparity of sacrifice

4. Expectations

5. General distrust of marriage

6. Distrust of affairee

7. Divided loyalties

8. The nature of infidels

9. The nature of affairees

10. Romance

11. Scapegoating the betrayed

12. Unshared history
And a little more reading material for you:


LINK to "life after infidelity"

The part I think is applicable to your situation is the part dealing with ROMANTIC affairs. Here it is.


Quote:


ROMANTIC INFIDELITY

Surely the craziest and most destructive form of infidelity is the temporary insanity of falling in love. You do this, not when you meet somebody wonderful (wonderful people don't screw around with married people) but when you are going through a crisis in your own life, can't continuing living your life, and aren't quite ready for suicide yet. An affair with someone grossly inappropriate--someone decades younger or older, someone dependent or dominating, someone with problems even bigger than your own--is so crazily stimulating that it's like a drug that can lift you out of your depression and enable you to feel things again. Of course, between moments of ecstasy, you are more depressed, increasingly alone and alienated in your fife, and increasingly hooked on the affair partner. Ideal romance partners are damsels or "dumsels" in distress, people without a life but with a lot of problems, people with bad reality testing and little concern with understanding reality better.

Romantic affairs lead to a great many divorces, suicides, homicides, heart attacks, and strokes, but not to very many successful remarriages. No matter how many sacrifices you make to keep the love alive, no matter how many sacrifices your family and children make for this crazy relationship, it will gradually burn itself out when there is nothing more to sacrifice to it. Then you must face not only the wreckage of several lives, but the original depression from which the affair was an insane flight into escape.

People are most likely to get into these romantic affairs at the turning points of life: when their parents die or their children grow up; when they suffer health crises or are under pressure to give up an addiction; when they achieve an unexpected level of job success or job failure; or when their first child is born--any situation in which they must face a lot of reality and grow up. The better the marriage, the saner and more sensible the spouse, the more alienated the romantic is likely to feel. Romantic affairs happen in good marriages even more often than in bad ones.

Both genders seem equally capable of falling into the temporary insanity of romantic affairs, though women are more likely to reframe anything they do as having been done for love. Women in love are far more aware of what they are doing and what the dangers might be. Men in love can be extraordinarily incautious and willing to give up everything. Men in love lose their heads--at least for a while.



It's important that YOU recognize this now (and WH will recognize it later, after his cranial/rectal extraction is complete):

"Romantic affairs lead to a great many divorces, suicides, homicides, heart attacks, and strokes, but not to very many successful remarriages."

And for emphasis:

"Romantic affairs happen in good marriages even more often than in bad ones."
And, another good read.
The 80/20 rule.


LINK to 80/20 thread


Quote:


Interesting quote from the movie "Why did I get married?"

In most cases, especially in relationships, you will only get 80% of
what you NEED and you will hardly get the other 20% that you WANT in
your relationship. There is always another person (man or women) that
you will meet and that will offer you the other 20% which is lacking
in your relationship that you WANT

And believe me, 20% looks really good when you are not getting it at
all in your current relationship.

But the problem is that you will always be tempted to leave that good
80% that you know you have, thinking that you will get something
better with the other 20% that you WANT

But as reality has proven, in most cases, you will always end up with
having the 20% that you WANT and loosing the 80% that you really NEED
and that you already had.

Be careful in deciding between what you WANT and NEED in your life.


Adultery happens when you start looking for what you don't have. "Wow,
this girl in my office is a real looker. But it's not her Wynona Rider
features that got me. I'm crazy about her because she's also
understanding, intelligent, tender - so many things that my spouse is
not"

Somewhere along the way, you'll find a woman or a man who will be more
charming or sensitive. More alluring. More thoughtful. Richer. Have
greater sex appeal. And you will find a woman or man who will need you
and pursue you and go loco over you more than your spouse ever did.

Because no wife or husband is perfect. Because a spouse will only have
80% of what you're looking for. So adultery takes place when a husband
or wife looks for the missing 20%. Let's say your wife is melancholic
by nature.

You may find yourself drawn to the pretty clerk who has a cherry laugh
no matter what she says: "I broke my arm yesterday, Hahahaha . . .."

Or because your wife is a homebody in slippers and pajamas, smelling
of garlic and fish oil, you may fall for a fresh-smelling young sales
representative that visits your office in a sharp black blazer, high
heels, and a red pencil-cut skirt Or because your husband is the quiet
type, your heart may skip a beat when you meet an old college flame
who has the makings of a talk show host.

But wait! That's only 20% of what you don't have.

Don't throw away the 80% that you already have!

That's not all. Add to your spouse's 80% the 100% that represents all
the years that you have been with each other. The storms you have
weathered together. The unforgettable moments of sadness and joy as a
couple. The many adjustments you have made to love the other. The
wealth of memories that you've accumulated as lovers.

Adultery happens when you start looking for what you don't have.

But faithfulness happens when you start thanking God for what you
already have.

But I'm not just talking about marriage.

I'm talking about life!

About your jobs.
About your friends.
About your children.
About your lifestyles.

Are you like the economy airline passenger that perennially peeks
through the door of the first class cabin, obsessed with what he's
missing? "They have got more leg room! Oh my, their food is served in
porcelain! Wow, their seats recline at an 80% angle and they've got
personal videos!"

I guarantee you'll be miserable for the entire trip! Don't live your
life like that. Forget about what the world says is first class. Do
you know that there are many first class passengers who are miserable
in first class -- because they are not riding in a private Lear Jet?

The main message???

If you start appreciating what you have right now, wherever you are,
you are first class!

Top

Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/13/09 08:39 PM
I like the girlfriends watching TV idea.
Originally Posted By: Neak
I like the girlfriends watching TV idea.


Or playing cards ...

Or making cookies ...

Or doing each other's nails ...

Just as long as they are THERE and they look busy.
Originally Posted By: Pepperband
Or doing each other's nails ...


Sharpening them into claws. Or would that be too obvious?flirt

tl
Originally Posted By: thndrnltng
Originally Posted By: Pepperband
Or doing each other's nails ...


Sharpening them into claws. Or would that be too obvious?flirt

tl


LOL!

Not too obvious at all...most waynerd's are fairly oblivious so they'd be good and safe I'm sure. smile
Oh my...so much of the quotes Pep put up are perfect. I started to quote them but there is just too much.

See, here is the thing, Scot...my H had an affair but never intended to leave...though he never let the OW know this, that would have killed the "fantasy" she had going and he LIKED the attention he was getting from her. He never intended to be stuck with her for life and that is why he never left and never even considered it....just as your H has never done.

Your H has not left you or your home yet...deep down he sees and knows all of her flaws and doesn't want to be stuck with that for life (I know this to be true from experience).

He is still getting that 80% from you...when he tries to get that from the OW alone, SHE WILL FAIL. And that is what needs to happen. He NEEDS to fall...that is a "side effect" of Plan B.
Quote:
See, here is the thing, Scot...my H had an affair but never intended to leave...though he never let the OW know this, that would have killed the "fantasy" she had going and he LIKED the attention he was getting from her. He never intended to be stuck with her for life and that is why he never left and never even considered it....just as your H has never done.


I agree.

He's leading OW on....and stalling for time.
He is totally leading the OW on...that is what affairees do to keep the ego stroking going.
Awesome job scotland smile

And you posters who are tutoring her : Hats off!!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/14/09 01:25 PM
WOW HEAVY reading first thing in the morning hehehehehe. Thanx to EVERYONE. You guys are GREAT. I told another one of my friends yesterday as I was leaving work. She was in total shock and said that she thought that I was pretty darn strong. She joked and said "He still has all of his "parts" right?" I had to laugh and say "Yes".

When I got home from work yesterday, he was starting dinner again and he had finished some laundry and got the kids to take their showers. I thanked him for all of the help.

He was trying to avoid looking at me and I made sure I kept looking at him with a smile on my face and a glint in my eyes.

He was play fighting with the boys on the living room floor while I was reading HNHN and while he was playing I made sure to put the book down, face up of course so he could read the title, and I laughed and made comments of encouragement to the boys. I made sure to tell them that WH is ticklish under his arms. They jumped right on it and he laughed. They were having so much fun that when it ended, our youngest cried that he wanted daddy to still play.

I consoled him and then a couple of minutes later, I played with them too.

After we were done playing (no crying this time because I explained better that I was OLD and tired hehehehehe), the kids were sitting on the couch with me and WH was playing on the computer. I made sure I praised our youngest in ways that compared him to WH in looks and the way he makes people laugh. I know that WH has always said that he knew he made me happy and got great joy because he could make me laugh.

After the kids went to sleep, I put on a new nighty I had bought that he has never seen before. I showed off for a couple of minutes and then I went to bed. I said good night to him and made sure to rub my hand down his arm and squeeze. He pulled away a bit and grunted. I just smiled and went to bed.

When he came to bed he was in his cocoon again. At 4am, I woke up and decided I would touch him in his sleep. Well he wasn't sleeping. When I laid my hand on him he elbowed it away. I just waited a couple of minutes and then I did it again. He rolled away. I then laid there and he feel asleep. He started having a nightmare and I laid my hand on his back and he calmed down. As soon as I took it away he started making muffled screaming noises so I just kept my hand there until 5 minutes later when he woke up and made an annoyed noise.

This morning when he got up I made sure I said "Have a GREAT day at work" He just grunted and left the room.

I am going to make sure to send him an email today.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/14/09 01:31 PM
Pepper- I am so glad for all of your help. You have added many useful things that make me know that no matter which way this goes, I am doing the best things.

I guess when I am a little down sometimes it is because I want so badly for him to WANT to stay with me and get rid of her but I am afraid that that won't happen. I need someone else to look at my sitch from the outside and let me know what it really is.
Posted By: catperson Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/14/09 01:32 PM
Sounds like he's having MAJOR doubts.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/14/09 01:38 PM
OW has come stuff on her facebook account called ABOUT ME. She answered some questions and it was interesting to me. She said that she doesn't want to get married because she couldn't stand being around someone that long.

She also answered the what is she addicted to as "Sex, internet, shopping ......and some crazy guy ;)" I wanted to hit the screen.

Then it asked if she was crushing on someone and she answered "I wouldn't call it a crush"

GAG.

I am putting no more thought in to her. She is SO not worth it.

That is all of my ranting for today hehehehehe

Thanx everyone
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/14/09 02:52 PM
Bravo yet again! Without the benefit of hindsight, you won't be able to see just how well you're doing, and how well he's responding to you. Trust me, we can see it just fine.
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/14/09 02:55 PM
I'm getting a little skeptical about all the cooking and household stuff, though. Something odd is going on in his poor scrambled brain. It won't make a bit of difference to the outcome, it's just strange. Good or bad, he's up to something.

Just enjoy it and don't ask too many questions. grin
Lady Scot, you are doing SOOO good in your Plan A. Nightmares huh? Hm, could be his subconcious dealing with him. Yay for you being the calming touch.

You do realize that when you go into Plan B, it will mean NO contact at all (including peeking at HER/ITS FaceBook page? Plan B is about removing yourself from the DRAMA. You don't need it and it will be refreshing to not have to deal with his OR her stuff.

Keep on keepin' on.
I think things are looking good.

I particularly like that he is lying to the OW. This means when they begin their 'life' together he won't be able to hold up his end and there will be some MAJOR LB's on her part.

I hated the way he is becoming a good father and then starts an argument when he wants to go out...as though he wants you to kick him out that night so he has an excuse to stay out all night.

I liked reading's description of how she moved into Plan B. I gave my WH til the weekend to work things out of where he was to live...my Plan B wasn't quite a shock.

I would stop the exposure now...give yourself a few GOOD days of Plan A. Are you sure you are fulfilling HIS most important EN's? His top three?
Posted By: catperson Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/14/09 03:36 PM
Originally Posted By: Neak
I'm getting a little skeptical about all the cooking and household stuff, though. Something odd is going on in his poor scrambled brain. It won't make a bit of difference to the outcome, it's just strange. Good or bad, he's up to something.

Just enjoy it and don't ask too many questions. grin
Actually, this makes perfect sense to me. Just like we give gifts to people that WE like, we do things for people that WE like, thinking they will appreciate it as much as we do. So...he's scrambling to get back his status quo. He thinks if he pacifies her by ramping up the EN meeting on what he she has as an EN, she'll calm down and he can go back to cake eating. Primitive thinking, but very predictable.
His actions also have a lot to do with guilt...it's especially hard to not feel guilty when your W is being so d*mn good to you and you are being a complete *ss.

It's also a way for him to stay in "good graces" with her, without actually making a commitment to do so.
Also, Scot...PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE stop looking at her FB page (or anything else about her). As tempting as it is, it is not helpful for you. It just keeps you all in turmoil, with a lot of gagging and anger in there too.

I know this from experience, so PLEASE stop this. I cannot tell you how much better you will feel when you stop. Your mind willo free up of so much baggage.
Originally Posted By: MarriedForever
Also, Scot...PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE stop looking at her FB page (or anything else about her). As tempting as it is, it is not helpful for you. It just keeps you all in turmoil, with a lot of gagging and anger in there too.

I know this from experience, so PLEASE stop this. I cannot tell you how much better you will feel when you stop. Your mind willo free up of so much baggage.




please listen to MarriedForever. I too know from experience and this will drain your $LB and make you anger and could cause you to love bust when you don't mean to. It can cause for a lot to go on inside of you and you are doing so well. Please keep up the awesome job you are doing, you should be very proud of yourself.
ITA. Recovery is going great for my FWH and me...until I slide and look at all the phone records, notes, emails, etc. that I have from his A. Next thing you know, "LBs, anyone?"
Originally Posted By: princessmeggy


You do realize that when you go into Plan B, it will mean NO contact at all (including peeking at HER/ITS FaceBook page? Plan B is about removing yourself from the DRAMA. You don't need it and it will be refreshing to not have to deal with his OR her stuff.



... took the words rightouttamymouf stickout
Originally Posted By: StrongerThanB4
Originally Posted By: MarriedForever
Also, Scot...PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE stop looking at her FB page (or anything else about her). As tempting as it is, it is not helpful for you. It just keeps you all in turmoil, with a lot of gagging and anger in there too.

I know this from experience, so PLEASE stop this. I cannot tell you how much better you will feel when you stop. Your mind willo free up of so much baggage.




please listen to MarriedForever. I too know from experience and this will drain your $LB and make you anger and could cause you to love bust when you don't mean to. It can cause for a lot to go on inside of you and you are doing so well. Please keep up the awesome job you are doing, you should be very proud of yourself.

Add me to the list of "me toos!" Fortunately, I got my hand slapped (virtually, that is) early on -- so I went and blocked WW's FB from mine, and shut down any and all "spyware" I had in place.

Now is the time for me to focus on me! That's a large part of Plan B. Yesterday and today I'm defrosting a freezer. I'm eating foods my WW didn't favor (made myself a very tasty pasta-and-gravy dinner last night). I went out with neighbors, attended a Christmas party, did some Christmas shopping, ran in a couple of 10Ks, and you know what? I'm feeling pretty good about myself.

Try it, you might like it. smile
Quote:
He started having a nightmare and I laid my hand on his back and he calmed down. As soon as I took it away he started making muffled screaming noises so I just kept my hand there until 5 minutes later when he woke up and made an annoyed noise.


FYI - no one posting to you on your thread hates your WH.
I don't think anyone has made that point yet.
We hate his adultery, not him.

If it ever comes to pass that you enter an actual recovery, we will be as helpful to H as we are to you, if he'll allow it and post on MB.



So, even though we say uncomplimentary things about WH (as is) we would not be urging you to follow MB plans if we did not think there is a good guy buried under all that adultery chemistry and fog babble.

Also, we will help you in Plan B. A new set of rules for you and an emotional minefield.

((( hugs )))

You are very brave.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/14/09 06:28 PM
Thanx. I don't think that anyone on here hates my WH I understand that what we all hate on here in A's. I am a person who sees the good in many sitchs and people and believe it or not, I believe she may have some good in her somewhere. I used to hope that that good part would overrule her at some point and give up this madness but I now know there isn't enough of it in there.

I do know that Plan B means not looking at anything so I have actually deleted all of the saved things that I had on her. I am just a person who tends to remember what I read rather easily and I actually haven't been back to her FB account since Friday when I sent the messages. I am done with exposure, I just really wanted to tell her family so I could KNOW that I did everything that I could. I am not giving her any more of my time in my thoughts.

I have been doing things for myself. I need to figure out more things that I enjoy to do but I am figuring it out.

I am going to keep it up as best as I can. I am a little worried about Friday and if he won't leave. The only place that he has to go is her house so we will see if he is willing to go.

When he talked to me at first about his leaving he said that when he left he wanted to make sure it was for good because he doesn't want to go in and out.

We have witnessed 3 other marriages in our family (my SIL, Sister and my parents) break up in the past 4 years. My SIL is still with the man she had an affair with(all be it not happy) and my Mom is still with the man she left my dad for. That has been a major part of our lives and I think that is probably why I am acting the way that I have been because I saw what happens when you act with you taker instead.
Originally Posted By: Pepperband

FYI - no one posting to you on your thread hates your WH.
I don't think anyone has made that point yet.
We hate his adultery, not him.

If it ever comes to pass that you enter an actual recovery, we will be as helpful to H as we are to you, if he'll allow it and post on MB.



So, even though we say uncomplimentary things about WH (as is) we would not be urging you to follow MB plans if we did not think there is a good guy buried under all that adultery chemistry and fog babble.

Also, we will help you in Plan B. A new set of rules for you and an emotional minefield.


Glad you said that pep I was thinking the same
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/14/09 08:04 PM
Maybe this giving side is something the rest of you have seen, but I sure haven't.

AJ gave almost nothing during his A, and when he did it was usually buying something for the kids that they wouldn't normally have gotten, kinda like Disneyland Dad only on a very, very low scale. wink

It might just be me, but I haven't really seen a personal investment like that, normally. Money, yes, maybe a little time to go do something, but meeting some actual emotional needs through caring deeds? Wow. You're all probably right though, about the combo guilt and wanting to get back to the status quo, aka Cake.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/14/09 10:46 PM
Well, you guys have given me lots to think about in that way.

One thing that kinda PO'd me was that I noticed that the boxer shorts that he wore to OW house on Saturday night were actually the silk ones bought for ME, that he would wear, as my Xmas present last year. I took them and hid them but I dunno if that follows under Plan A. I wil check when I get home form the Xmas concert my kids are having tonight.
Originally Posted By: Scotland
Well, you guys have given me lots to think about in that way.

One thing that kinda PO'd me was that I noticed that the boxer shorts that he wore to OW house on Saturday night were actually the silk ones bought for ME, that he would wear, as my Xmas present last year. I took them and hid them but I dunno if that follows under Plan A. I wil check when I get home form the Xmas concert my kids are having tonight.


Lose the shorts in the trash.

Without comment.
Or if you have a fireplace... whistle
Posted By: catperson Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/14/09 11:21 PM
Burn them.
Posted By: reading Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/14/09 11:23 PM
Or...

start wearing the boxers yourself to reclaim them!

I did lots of stuff like that in A.
As a female I have to ask, what is it like wearing boxers? I've never done so.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/14/09 11:56 PM
Have you got a dog? You could clean up after the dog with them...

Maybe put the shorts in a baggy and staple them to his pillow or put them in his lunch or briefcase...

AFTER cleaning up after the dog with them, of course.

MrRollieEyes

Did I say that?

Mark
Posted By: lildoggie Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/15/09 12:21 AM
2 days after D-day I was catching up on the washing when I noticed a particular pair of Flicks underwear in the dirty pile. I wont describe them but they are definatly ones you wear to 'look good'.

I cut a hole in the pouch thing in the front with scissors, washed and dried them and put them in his drawer, folded so the hole didnt show. He took them with him on one of his clothes collecting visits laugh
Posted By: johnstwin Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/15/09 12:45 AM
I worked with a really great teacher who was a mentor to me in many ways. She gave me some advice that might fit here. She told me that she never made a big deal about "inappropriate" clothing that her DD had purchased. She would say something once, and then she gave me this piece of advice: "I made sure the item got ruined in the laundry. Of course, I always made sure that one of DH's or DS's or mine got ruined also..."

Although my DD was younger at that time, I took her advice to heart. It worked. laugh
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/15/09 01:06 AM
Well, I definitely will accidentally lose them or something. I was just so angry that THOSE would be the ones he would wear for that the day he did all of those things around the house. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

Top it all off, the kids had their Christmas concert tonight and he was a NO SHOW. He plays in a pool league and I guess he mut have thought that was more important tonight. Well, I am not going to say anything when he gets home. DS 6 was a little upset cuz Daddy never misses anything and I just responded with "Mommy will always be here." It breaks my heart.

I am almost done reading HNHN and it is really worth the read. I had read SAA twice first because I wanted to make sure I knew what to do before "B"-Day (that's what I am calling the day I am going to Plan B). I am glad I am reading HNHN too.

Well, a few more days and I will change my life for the better. It is going to be hard and I will be leaning on people really hard. Hopefully, he will abide by my wishes.
Posted By: reading Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/15/09 01:30 AM
Wearing the boxers would be like wearing big jammies and getting your own essence into them...yk?

I recommend getting a copy of Lovebusters too.

I have all three books near my bed with dog ears on my favorite pages to refer to when I am a bit 'weak' and fearful of B. They really calm me down AND keep me focused on why I am doing it.

I also cut and paste and print thread replies that resonate with me and make me feel strong to read (usually in the middle of the night when the anxiety strikes).

So....beware posters YOUR reply may be printed near my bedside at this moment!
Soooooooooo

Have you made plans for New Years yet?

How about you and the kids throwing a party for your and their friends at your house?
happynewyear
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/15/09 02:00 AM
I haven't completely thought about it yet. As it was I was thinking about getting through Christmas since now my mom told me that she is having Christmas on Christmas Eve instead so I guess I will have to do something just me and the kids.

New beginnings and all that jazz.

I have a lot to focus on this coming few weeks. A lot of work to do and a lot of stuff to get through. At least I will have somewhere to turn to for the right kind of support. Thanx.
Posted By: catperson Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/15/09 02:12 AM
Since you have the whole day open, why not look into volunteering at an old folks' home or something? Buy a boatload of candy canes and go visit all the kids in a children's hospital and hand them out? Serve food at a homeless shelter?

Can't imagine a better memory to create. (and one that will keep you so busy you won't notice the gaping hole so much)
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/15/09 01:16 PM
That's a GREAT idea cat, I will see what I can come up with.

I realized this morning that the touches and looks and even when I open the shower door to look at him is bang on. These are things he used to do to me all of the time and the funny thing is I used to pull away from HIM. I don't know why I didn't see it before.

Tonight is going to be the last night I actually spend around him because I have to work the next 2 nights until midnight and he will be asleep before I get home. I am going to do my best not to get too sad about that when he is around and I will make sure to put on my best game face.

Here's hoping to a GLORIOUS day.
hug

Hang in there - it's going to be a tuff week.

Don't forget to breathe.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/16/09 01:19 PM
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. Well, last night he came home from work and he was so COLD to me. He played with the kids but ignored me completely. Then around 745pm I couldn't stand it anymore. I was going to break down so I got ready and I kissed the kids and then I said "I have somewhere I have to be." Then I walked out the door. I drove to a park and sat in my car, blared music and cried and screamed.

After an hour, I came home. I got ready to go to bed and then I said good night to him while I rubbed my hand down his arm. He not only pulled away but he made a disgusted noise like he was getting touched by the most vial thing he has ever seen. I just laughed and went upstairs and cried.

I made sure when he came to bed I told him good night again.

This morning when he got up, I told him to have a good day at work. He ignored me.

I am going to write him the last email I will send him, today, and it will be remembering when the kids were born.

I am only able to get through these last couple of days because I know that they are the last couple of days with him being able to hurt me.

I am making mental lists of all of his stuff that I am going to pack up for him. I am also keeping myself busy with the kids but I know that soon my world is going to crash.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I know one day, either way, I am going to feel better. I guess I just have to keep repeating my favourite quote "That which does not totally destroy me, makes me even stronger."
This MB stuff is not for woosies.
Stay strong.
You're doing great.
Scotland,

I've been following your sitch and wish you the best. I've been on these boards a long time (under another handle) and can empathize with you.

I know exactly where you are and how you're feeling. Everything you're going through is normal. I also wrote long emails to my ww (an ex now). Those emails are honestly a waste of time. They don't care. They don't care about your pain or tears. Your emotions are a reflection of the guilt they are stuffing away, but they deal with it through acting disgusted and treating you like a leper.

Plan B will be your refuge of safety and your break to get your bearings back. Trust me when I tell you that as time passes you will see your H more and more for who he truly is. You will also grow stronger in your feelings and realize that you will be ok no matter what. Your sadness will turn to anger and then eventual acceptance. You may even welcome his absence from your life.

It happened to me. The situation with my kids isn't ideal, but I get quality time with them and they adapt when they're young. Keep in mind that they don't want to see what's coming and they love both of you no matter what the other one has done.

But take care of yourself. There's a time where you need to focus on you and Plan B is it.

Expect nothing from him in Plan A. He is incapable of seeing anything or feeling your pain.

Let his guilt hit him later. When it does you may not want him back.

Best of luck.
In my opinion, the (brief) emails are fine, especially the ones recalling family history events. Not a waste of time.
You're doing fabulous! Keep going strong. You can make it. You are doing all you can to save your M. Just a few more days to go.

I wish you all the best. Will keep following your thread and praying for you.
Originally Posted By: Pepperband
In my opinion, the (brief) emails are fine, especially the ones recalling family history events. Not a waste of time.


Agree. I'd throw some family photos in whatever you pack up, as well. Remind him of the precious time he really had as a family and what he's throwing away.
Posted By: not2fun Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/16/09 02:19 PM
Originally Posted By: Pepperband
In my opinion, the (brief) emails are fine, especially the ones recalling family history events. Not a waste of time.


(((((Scotland))))),

ahhhh......I remember those moments, and truly they just are moments. It's good to acknowledge it, cry it out, and then keep moving. And remember, we are all here for you......

I agree with Pep.......

Not2fun
your doing great.... you'll look back one day and realize how strong you really and truely are. You are an inspiration for everyone!

It's ok to be sad and cry, but know this the pain does get better once you are removed from the drama. Your doing awesome!! I will be saying some prayers for you and everyone else on here.
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/16/09 03:24 PM
He is projecting his own disgust at himself onto you.

He knows he is at fault so he is blaming you.

Every bad thing you get from him is because you've been making a difference with the things you've been doing. You're shining a light so dazzling he can't stand it because it reveals the full ugliness of what he's doing.

There's a reason the wicked won't be able to look Christ in the face when He comes again, while His friends will eagerly hold out their arms to meet Him.

Quote:
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
~ Revelation 6


It's the very same principle that you see working in your life. If your WH was walking in the light, he would welcome the radiance of your love.

Instead, he runs shrieking from it, wishing the mountains would crush him and hide him from that searching light that exposes every dark and disgusting thought and action.

If you weren't blazing fabulously, he would be much more comfortable. (Hint: comfortable is bad.) Keep it up - only a few more days. You can do it!
Quote:
He is projecting his own disgust at himself onto you.

He knows he is at fault so he is blaming you.
Every bad thing you get from him is because you've been making a difference with the things you've been doing. You're shining a light so dazzling he can't stand it because it reveals the full ugliness of what he's doing.

There's a reason the wicked won't be able to look Christ in the face when He comes again, while His friends will eagerly hold out their arms to meet Him.


This is exactly what I was thinking...he is furious at HIMSELF because you are being so incredible to him and he is being such a jerk...however, the crack addiction (OW) is so strong right now and his clarity is so foggy from the drug that he can't seem to find the strength to get out.

The colder he is to you, the more your Plan A is WORKING. Trust me on this...I know from experience.

Your Plan A is truly inspirational...you are almost there!

<I can't remember...do you have VERY CLEAR CONDITIONS in your PBL on what he needs to in order to come home/start recovery? I highly, highly recommend that one of your conditions be MCing with counselor of your choice (and you will choose Steve Harley)...he can help guide you into a safe recovery.>
Another thing...my DH has thanked me numerous times for my STRENGTH during the A...he is very proud of me and incredibly thankful for what I did to save our M. Your H WILL remember this later.

Last week we hosted a BIG Christmas party for all of his work colleagues at our home...it was a ton of work for me. When it was over and everyone had left, he hugged me in the kitchen for 15 minutes and repeated over and over how lucky he is, how proud he is to have me for his wife, how thankful he is for all I did to save our family...the changes I made during Plan A have stuck, and I know that I am loved.

If your H ever pulls his head out of that dark place, he will remember all that you have done too and be incredibly thankful. Remember this in your last few days of Plan A and avoid those LBers like the plague. It WILL make a difference.
Posted By: reading Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/16/09 04:19 PM
Sorry for the latest angst.

Your openess, loving compassion and displays of affection are never wasted on your H even though his reaction was cranky and difficult.

Really, MB is NOT for weaklings at all. It builds on your strengths in a methodical way.

The last couple days in plan A really help to transition to B and sounds like the timing of B is going to be perfect.

Remember the first week in B will be strange to you (dealing with a WH pushing limits of it, not having him around like you are used to)

Week two you may hit a wall of grief. You should talk to your physician about ways to handle that (medication, over the counter like sam-E or prescription) and prepare.

You will need to keep the clearest head possible. You will need to know it is coming and to enjoy each day before that hits (being honest here)

Then, you will find yourself getting stronger and stronger and reflective and self-nurturing. You will find ways to spend with your children that are joyful and new and you will wonder why you never thought of those activities before!

We are all there for you and each other.

The MB path is a positive one. Not an easy path but a positive one.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/16/09 04:22 PM
MF- I do have a stipulation in there to say that he has to agree to a marriage counselor of MY choosing.

I really did think that it IS working when he made that noise but it HURT so bad. I am glad I was able to laugh in front of him though. There is one thing I kept telling myself too. He has never actually TOLD me to stop touching him. He would just grunt and now make a disgusted noise.

I am definitely going to put some pics in with his stuff so he can remember what he had. Unfortunately he doesn't really like his pic taken so we don't have too many of him. Mostly the kids and we actually only have ONE pic of all of us. That is sad to me but that is who he is.

Thanx for the support everyone. The email I am writing him today is just memories of when our kids were born. He was so happy that he cried and I know he was a proud papa. I want that one to be the last one he remembers from me.

Originally Posted By: Scotland
That's a GREAT idea cat, I will see what I can come up with.

I realized this morning that the touches and looks and even when I open the shower door to look at him is bang on. These are things he used to do to me all of the time and the funny thing is I used to pull away from HIM. I don't know why I didn't see it before.

Tonight is going to be the last night I actually spend around him because I have to work the next 2 nights until midnight and he will be asleep before I get home. I am going to do my best not to get too sad about that when he is around and I will make sure to put on my best game face.

Here's hoping to a GLORIOUS day.


Scotland, if your H isn't totally moved by your grace in this line of fire, then he's a heartless b@st@rd who doesn't deserve you. mad I'm wondering how quickly his addiction will wear off when he steps into the cold world without your presence and has to deal with the fact that the rosy fantasy of his A with the OW cannot be maintained.

Have a grand day - you so deserve it! hug
...but be prepared to deal with the reality that he may never come back. Separation INCREASES the chance reconciliation will never occur. But it offers you the best chance to preserve your love for your spouse while the affair runs its course, which won't happen if he remains at home and daily subjects you to the abuse of an affair. You would grow to hate him absolutely for the pain he inflicts upon you, and when he wanted to reconcile, you'd have no interest.

Good luck in your Plan B. Sounds like you are working with a typical self-justified, rationalizing, uncommunicative wayward here. The aliens that have taken over the bodies of our spouses all follow very, very similar scripts. Yours is following the "pushes your buttons but is very conflicted and refuses to admit it" script...
Originally Posted By: Scotland
He has never actually TOLD me to stop touching him. He would just grunt and now make a disgusted noise.


rotflmao How perfect!
And many folks keep a Plan B diary, so when he returns you can update him on all the things he missed while he was 'gone'.
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/16/09 10:50 PM
Quote:
Separation INCREASES the chance reconciliation will never occur.


And yet without a separation, the chance of recovery is virtually nil. Put that way, it sounds like the odds have increased.

Because of the risk Plan B is a last resort, but it's a last resort that almost always has to be used with WH's. So few A's end with Plan A alone, and when the WS is a WH it's pretty much a given that the cake supply has to be cut off before the RC extraction occurs.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/17/09 01:33 PM
I do believe that if I am NOT going to ask him to leave and move in to Plan B, he would just be lapping up all of his cake indefinitely. WH's plan for after he was to leave me was that he would live with OW, he would just take his clothes and leave the rest of his stuff here. Then when I went to work that he would come HERE and watch the kids. He also was saying things to me about coming back to fix things around the house that needs to be fixed.

It was like he was going to have the same situation he has now only his place of residence would change. He is going to be totally shocked by this one for sure.

Last night as I was leaving for work, i made sure I touched the side of his face and looked right in his eyes. He pulled away and I said (although I may have been wrong to say, but I kept a smile on my face and kept it light) "you can't change the way I feel, have a good night." Then I walked out the door. I heard the door open and I turned around expecting him to say something else. What he said was "Don't forget to pick up bread" and I said "I was shopping after work anyways good night."
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/17/09 02:24 PM
Actually,that was very good. It qualifies as a drive-by. He must have been really speechless if the bread was the best come-back he could think of. laugh
Posted By: not2fun Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/17/09 02:47 PM
Waywards suck ......

I'm pulling for ya
So what IS your Plan B plan? Who will watch the kids? How will you handle visitation if he goes to live with OW?
Originally Posted By: not2fun
Waywards suck ......



Stupid hoovers!
Posted By: Dealan-de Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/17/09 04:04 PM
I think this one can qualify as a Dyson or Kirby.
Originally Posted By: Dealan-de
I think this one can qualify as a Dyson or Kirby.


Oreck and a bowling ball
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/17/09 05:08 PM
Well my Plan B plan is that I have changed my shifts at work so I work days and weekends instead of nights and weekends. My sister and friends will watch the kids during the day time shifts and WH will pick them up for my weekend shifts. I have that set in the children part that I will be giving him when I ask him to leave.

As to where he will take the kids when he has them is really not my concern. A little part of my hopes he will take them to her house because our DS6 can be a real handful. My WH has always had difficulty controlling his anger around him and he loses his patience often. There is no threat to his personal safety but only to WH saving face in front of his new love. DS6 is extremely attached to me and even told me that on Sunday while I was at work WH was talking on the phone and DS6 told him to get off of the phone. My WH response was "I am an adult and I can talk to whomever I want."

I know that OW and WH have been ignoring the fact that he has children because when they talk about them they don't use their names. They call them "the big one and the Little one". If that isn't sticking your head in the sand I don't know what is. I think OW would make HUGE withdrawals in WH Love Bank if she didn't get along with the kids. He has always said (before ALIEN took over), that if he was to date again(when I died) that the woman would have to love his kids and that he would always choose the kids over her in a fight.

I am focusing on getting through this last night. It is possibly the last night that I will ever sleep in the same bed as my WH and that makes me sad. We have lived together for 15 years and have only been apart at night for 15 nights (3 of those in the past 6 months when he was with OW).

Before a couple of months ago, I wasn't even able to sleep without him. After he told me he was leaving however, I started to get used to it.

Focusing on the tasks ahead. Removed family picture from the wall and made a copy. I will pack that in his stuff with another copy of the Plan B letter hidden behind it. I will also make him up a small photo album of pictures from our past as a family.

Here's hoping to the fact that he will not fight me about leaving. I know he is going to tell me that he has nowhere to go. What can I say to that one? I want to say "I don't care where you go." but that isn't the truth. I thought I could just say "You are breaking my heart." and leave it at that. I

I will keep you all posted. Here's to a celebration of the end of Plan A (I made it even thought I wanted to give up a few times) and the beginning of Plan B through "Shock and AWE".

I do believe it is the best chance I have at saving my M and I am grateful to everyone for their help and support.
Originally Posted By: Scotland


Here's hoping to the fact that he will not fight me about leaving. I know he is going to tell me that he has nowhere to go. What can I say to that one?



"WH, I am setting you free. Where you go is your business. Read the letter. Everything is in the letter. Good-bye."
"I love you. You're breaking my heart."

Make every effort to leave OW out of the final conversation.

WH might bring her up. If he does;


"You are free to go."
One more:

"I am protecting myself from further damage and pain caused by adultery. If you care about me, you will leave as requested."
I recommend you lawyer up. You should establish some sort of temporary custody. He otherwise has the right to take the kids, move elsewhere, and file for custody there.

I would also put a restraining order that the parmour is not to be permitted around the children.

Finally, check the law in your state, but you can sue the OW as well for Alienation of Affection.

I think with the right lawyer you could sue her for anything you want, IMHO.

Just some food for thought.
Posted By: Aphelion Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/17/09 06:03 PM
"You are free to go."

I don’t recommend this one. The adulterer will reply something to the effect, “See, I always knew you never loved me.” Takes a thick skin to get past this retort. A skin I learned I did not have.

But the others are good. Especially, just refer him to the letter.

Plan B gets harder and harder for a while, and then its gets easy.

And then you wonder why you put up with the loser for as long as you did.

I also strongly recommend you talk to legal counsel. Adulterers are liars and cheaters -through and through. He and OW will take everything they can from you.


Have you posted or emailed to someone here your Plan B Letter for comment?
Originally Posted By: helpthelostdads
I recommend you lawyer up. You should establish some sort of temporary custody. He otherwise has the right to take the kids, move elsewhere, and file for custody there.

I would also put a restraining order that the parmour is not to be permitted around the children.

Finally, check the law in your state, but you can sue the OW as well for Alienation of Affection.

I think with the right lawyer you could sue her for anything you want, IMHO.

Just some food for thought.


Scotty lives in Canada. A whole 'nuther universe ...
You are a woman of great beauty and strength!

Prayers going out for you...

((((Scotland))))
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/18/09 06:02 AM
I have soooo many people sending me prayers and positive thoughts. It feels good to know there are so many people pulling for me.

It has been a very rough day today. I started having doubts if this is really what I should do but I know it is because I am just afraid. Yesterday, I still thought it was a good idea and if I think about all of the times WH has done something that could have made me break Plan A I know that the timing is right.

I can't keep living like this with him cake-eating. OW may be ok with it but I am better than that and I deserve better. I know there is a possibility that he will never come back and that is the biggest part that scares me.

This may be the last night I ever sleep in the same bed as WH and that makes me sad, but I know that I will get through.

I was at work tonight and it was all hitting me pretty good. I got myself out of it by repeating over and over again "Either way it will work out for the best". I firmly believe that. I will be better for this life experience whether I am alone or with WH.

Happy Birthday to me. I am giving myself the best present I could ever get. I am giving myself the best possible chance to save my marriage and have my self respect.

Thank you all and I will keep everyone up to date with how it goes.
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/18/09 06:07 AM
This is your last night to sleep with a cheater.

Chances are, it isn't the last night you'll spend with your husband.

Courage!
Originally Posted By: Scotland
I can't keep living like this with him cake-eating. OW may be ok with it but I am better than that and I deserve better. I know there is a possibility that he will never come back and that is the biggest part that scares me.

This may be the last night I ever sleep in the same bed as WH and that makes me sad, but I know that I will get through.

I was at work tonight and it was all hitting me pretty good. I got myself out of it by repeating over and over again "Either way it will work out for the best". I firmly believe that. I will be better for this life experience whether I am alone or with WH.

Happy Birthday to me. I am giving myself the best present I could ever get. I am giving myself the best possible chance to save my marriage and have my self respect. ..


Happy Birthday Scotland !!
Posted By: saynomore Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/18/09 12:52 PM
Happy birthday Scotland. I woke up thinking about you this morning. Be strong. You are in my prayers.

God's Blessings,

Say
Posted By: catperson Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/18/09 01:39 PM
Happy Birthday! You're on the path to a HAPPIER life, whichever way it turns out.
HappyBirthday
Posted By: Dealan-de Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/18/09 01:44 PM
I thought of you all the way in this morning.

I've not posted because the way your WH is behaving is EXACTLY the way mine did - right down to the hugging the side of the bed every night.

You've handled it far better than I ever did and are a MUCH stronger and braver person for it.

From one December baby to another, I hope this birthday brings you peace and happiness for the next year and the one after that, and the one after that and to infinity and beyond (gotta love Buzz).

All my best,
Kimmy
Woke up thinking about you too, Scot!

Happy Birthday! You have done one of the best Plan A's I've ever seen. I admire you so much!
Happy Birthday, Scotland. I've read your entire thread and I have to say I'm amazed at your class, self control, and damn near everything about you. smile Stay strong, I'll be pulling for you to have the very best outcome FOR YOU.
Originally Posted By: Wolf_not_Cougar
Happy Birthday, Scotland. I've read your entire thread and I have to say I'm amazed at your class, self control, and damn near everything about you. smile Stay strong, I'll be pulling for you to have the very best outcome FOR YOU.


DITTO. Happy birthday and enjoy your kids this weekend!!!! I know i have said it to you before and you may not feel like it but you turely do have courage that most wish they had. You are a pillar of strenght and probably don't realize it. Stay strong as you have been.

Best wishes


~ FROM PEPPERBAND ~
HappyBirthday

Keep thinking those good thoughts and that this IS the best chance you have at saving your M...and yourself.

(((hugs!!)))
Posted By: optimism Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/18/09 04:39 PM
Thinking of you Scotland.
Stay strong.
Optimism
Posted By: reading Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/18/09 04:51 PM
I also am thinking of you on this day.

May all unfold as it should.

God bless you.

Hugs
Posted By: Lexxxy Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/18/09 04:57 PM
Happy Birthday Scotty!

You're giving yourself a wonderful gift!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/18/09 05:20 PM
Thank you everyone. You don't know how much I started crying just reading all of these words of encouragement.

I am done with the packing and putting all of his things out and you know what? The further along I got the madder I got at him and the better I felt that I was doing this. That first hurdle jumped, many more taller ones to go.

The wait for him to come home now begins. I think he may pull an ultimate [censored] move and not come home when he is supposed to. I have a plan to text him by 630 if he is not home. I am just going to say that he needs to come home because it is important. Then when he calls me, I am just not going to answer the phones.

The boys will be with my sister and mom where they will be taken care of and I can focus on what I need to do. My dad will be here with me to help me through it. I also have many people in the universe sending out prayers and positive thoughts. I feel stronger than I ever have in my entire life.

I do remember a couple of months ago, when my WH told me he was leaving me. He was crying and he said "I don't know if you are strong enough." My answer was "Oh don't worry I AM." I was always sure that I was.

Thank you everyone. I am going to keep myslef occupied today and I will write to you all after I come home from my birthday party.
Everyone here is holding you in their thoughts Scotland.

You are doing amazingly well.

I'll be keeping you uppermost in my thoughts all night and I hope this goes smoothly for you.

hug

Oh and Happy Birthday too.
Scotland, are you going to change the locks?

I HIGHLY, HIGHLY recommend you call a locksmith out RIGHT NOW and do this. You don't want him barging in to the house.
Originally Posted By: MarriedForever
Scotland, are you going to change the locks?

I HIGHLY, HIGHLY recommend you call a locksmith out RIGHT NOW and do this. You don't want him barging in to the house.


DITTO

Even if WH gets it changed back later ... it sends a clear message.
Even if it is not quite legal, do it anyway.
You can always defend your choice ... "I was worried about break ins and who might have a copy of the key."
Yeah, a critical part of my (intended, but never executed) Plan B was to change the garage door opener code and disable all remotes but the one in my car, change the locks on the doors (they need to be replaced anyway, they are 18 years old and falling apart), get the lock on the barn fixed, etc.

It's tough prying a spouse away from their house when they really, truly want to cake-eat and have both their spouse and the lover. Luckily I never had to go that far, but I'm certain it would have been a struggle.
Originally Posted By: Pepperband
[quote=MarriedForever]

Even if WH gets it changed back later ... it sends a clear message.
Even if it is not quite legal, do it anyway.
You can always defend your choice ... "I was worried about break ins and who might have a copy of the key."[/font][/b]


i did this and played stupid about it after my husband left as he was trying to come back to get stuff in the begining. Cops just told me i had to give him a key when i told them i didn't he was supposed to have a key as i hadn't talked to him in two months. It was no big deal at the time i thought i was going to get into worse trouble than that.
Posted By: not2fun Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/18/09 08:31 PM
(((((Scotland)))))),

Been thinking of you today as well. Let me just say HappyBirthday

They always say on birthday's your a year older and wiser, but I think for you we should add on STRONGER.....because that my dear is what you have become.....

I love the idea of dad being there. This is sooooo very good. You are getting great advice as usual.....keep up the good work and know as always, we are here for you.....

oh, and I hadn't seen anywhere, BUT you do have your IM lined up, right??....who was it again??...this is an important step.....

not2fun
HappyBirthday


thinking of you here too. You're doing an ace job and really showing those boys what is and isn't acceptable.
Originally Posted By: staytogether
HappyBirthday


thinking of you here too. You're doing an ace job and really showing those boys what is and isn't acceptable.


HappyBirthday Scotty! You ARE the woman! So, I'm looking at your bio and am I right: you got "the speech" on your anniversary, and WH is moving out on your birthday? Oof.
Do something special today, okay? There are no calories in birthday cake. Proven scientific fact. dance2
Posted By: _SOL Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/18/09 10:43 PM
Happy Birthday Scotland! May today be better than yesterday and not as good as tomorrow.
Posted By: Vittoria Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/18/09 11:13 PM
Wanted to stop by with a quickie ...... it's 6:10pm, fingers crossed that all goes as planned, praying as well.

You WILL be fine.

laker53 posted something like this to me once ......

Green the colour of calm ....... now breathe.

And oh, .... Happy Birthday!
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/18/09 11:44 PM
Don't think we haven't noticed what time it is now. Prayers are going up for you on this, your best birthday ever. It may not feel like it, but this is your finest hour. Now just step back and let God work.
pray
Posted By: MicheleG Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/19/09 12:24 AM
Thinking of you Scotland.
Posted By: not2fun Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/19/09 12:37 AM
Originally Posted By: Neak
Don't think we haven't noticed what time it is now. Prayers are going up for you on this, your best birthday ever. It may not feel like it, but this is your finest hour. Now just step back and let God work.



DITTO that......I pray all is well with you....STAY STRONG!!!!...CHIN UP AND CHEST OUT....

(ok, maybe not too much on that last one....unless of course, you want his last memory to be of your "assets"..... rotflmao)


(((((Scotland))))))

not2fun
Originally Posted By: MicheleG
Thinking of you Scotland.


Ditto. Please let us know something.
Posted By: optimism Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/19/09 01:54 AM
Still thinking of you Scotland.
You're in my thoughts and prayers.
Stay strong. Eat cake. Hug your family.
We're with you 1000%!

~opt
Posted By: bjs Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/19/09 02:58 AM
pray You are an Amazing person!!!!!!

HappyBirthday
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/19/09 03:39 AM
Hope all is going well with your evening. When you can, let us know how you are.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/19/09 04:58 AM
Well. WH came home 15 minutes early and I was on the phone with my dad and re-reading the responses I wanted to use and what I wanted to say to him.

I stopped him in the hallway, and he had noticed the stuff on the porch. I don't remember everything that was said(I really wish I had the tape recorder ready) or even how it started. It seems like a blur.

He did give me a bit of a hard time about where was he supposed to go? How long had I planned it? Did I want him to fight for the kids? Where were the kids? Why couldn't I wait until February? What were we doing about finances? Did I clean out the bank account?

I told him that here was a letter and it explained everything. He said that he wasn't going to read any letter. I could just tell him what needed to be said and he would remember it. I told him that there was a lot of things to take in and it is written down so he can read it later.

We talked for a half an hour. I repeated many many times "I love you and you are breaking my heart" as well as "I can not allow myself to be hurt by adultery anymore."

I know I said other things but I made sure never to bring OW up and never to blame him. I cried a lot but I never talked loudly at all.

When he said he didn't know where he was going to go, I simply said "I know you have some where to go." He said "yea with notice" I just said that he was going to leave in february but I couldn't bare being hurt any longer and I couldn't last.

When he asked how long I had been planning it I simply said "Not long. I just packed your things today."

When he talked about where he was supposed to take the kids when he had them I said, "I am sure you will take them somewhere safe."

When he said that I was taking his boys away from him I responded with "I have made arrangements with our friends that if you want to come and see them you can just call them. They will call me and I will let them know if it is ok that day."

When he talked about the finances and visitation I explained that they were written in the letter. I gave him an overview of what I would expect when finances were split. I then informed him that if we were to go to court that he would actually have to pay me more and possibly see the kids less. He agreed I was being liberal with visitation and decent with the finances.

He wanted to come in to the house to make sure I had gotten everything. I welcomed him to check and he found nothing else I had forgotten. He asked me repeatedly where the kids were and I said "They are at my birthday party. I didn't think it would be good for them to be here for this."

He cried a lot and maintained eye contact with me the whole time. Then after the half an hour went by he walked outside and started to put the things in the truck. I said "Can I have the keys to the house please?" He gave them to me and walked out the door. He saw my dad parked outside and said "your ride is here" I said "yea it is my dad" He said "or your boyfriend." I responded with my pocket response to that one "I believe in a marriage with only 2 people." I walked away and said "I love you" and got in my dad's car and we went to my bday party.

Sorry to leave you all hanging for so long but I had to stay away as long as I could. I miss him terribly and this is hard to admit but a small part of me hoped he would have chosen to stay with me.

This is pretty bad tonight but I am going to get through it.

Thank you all
Honestly - you could not have done it better.

MAJOR KUDOS
And WH is in a major cesspool of pain as well.

The difference is ... he has CAUSED the pain. (he has a guilty conscience)
You are making attempts to stop the pain. (you do not have a guilty conscience)

Never forget that.

He will read the letter. I promise you , he will.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/19/09 05:10 AM
Pepper- Well he did take it with him so that is a start. I emailed a copy to OW too.

I told him he could call the kids whenever he wanted and when I was leaving my sister's I noticed that someone had called my cell phone at 654pm. That was 35minutes after I left. I am putting call display on to make sure who it is before I ever answer the phone.
How's your Dad. It must have been difficult for him as well.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/19/09 05:20 AM
Well, my parents are interesting. My dad never even got out of the car. My mom left my dad in July 2008 for another man. My parents still talk to each other everyday and the joke is that my parents are having an affair with each other. My dad put a deadline of december 10th for my mom to come home. Well, it passed and today they were both at my party and my Dad made a couple of comments to her about her coming home.

He just kept telling me that life sucks for everyone and I would get through it. I know that he was trying to help but it wasn't helping much.

It just dawned on me that this is the first bday I spent w/o my H since I was 16. Triggers are everywhere.
Scotland,

YOU WERE AWESOME!!!.

Today, you are my hero.
Posted By: reading Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/19/09 05:49 AM
It WAS beautifully done. I believe in beautiful moves to B. I did it. You did it.

You will get through this and you really should talk to a physician about what supplements to take to help you. It is a long road.

Expect your WH to push boundaries for a while. If he doesn't, he is smarter than the average Wayward.

Stand firm but loving. Find ways so that the boundaries are found to be definite.

Happy Birthday. May your WH be home with you next year for the next one.
Originally Posted By: Fred_in_VA
Scotland,

YOU WERE AWESOME!!!.

Today, you are my hero.


DITTO
OMG Scotland,

WH would have to be crazy for this not to have made a HUGE hole in his fantasy.

Be easy on yourself now
Posted By: optimism Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/19/09 12:48 PM
Heroic. Amazing. Strong. Perseverant. Courageous. Loving. Considerate. Protective. Virtuous. Self-respecting. Honest. Beautiful. Compassionate. Upright. Principled.

All these things you are today, Scotland. You were these things yesterday. And you will be tomorrow. Your new-found ability to express these traits has solidified them in you as part of your true character.



Opt
Posted By: not2fun Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/19/09 02:50 PM
((((((Scotty))))))),

Oh honey, I am sooooo very proud of you. I know this hurts, but you truly are doing the best thing for YOU, your children and your marriage. DON'T EVER EVER doubt this.

You handled everything beautifully. You truly did.

And someday (I don't know when), HE will look back at this and remember how loving and graceful YOU were. His respect for you will grow because of this.

I'm bumping up another thread for you (I can't seem to do this link stuff very well....I'm no techie...). It's called "My gift to you". Its a thread by a wonderful VET named Mimi. She did a great Plan B, though she contented that it was because of her Plan A that her H finally returned to the marriage. They are recovered and have been going on 7 yrs. now......Anyway, you will see how hard but yet rewarding Plan B can be. She took a HUGE leap of faith in this process and even sold her and her H's dream house....Its a good read....

Anyway, I just wanted to drop by and see how you did. It'll probably be a rough morning for you....I suggest a Pedi...... laugh

I for one am amazed at your strength..... kiss


not2fun
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/19/09 02:51 PM
hurray You've done so good. Wow! This could not have been handled better - you're a champion.
Posted By: not2fun Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/19/09 03:04 PM
Originally Posted By: Scotland
My mom left my dad in July 2008 for another man. My parents still talk to each other everyday and the joke is that my parents are having an affair with each other. My dad put a deadline of december 10th for my mom to come home. Well, it passed and today they were both at my party and my Dad made a couple of comments to her about her coming home.


Scotty,

One more thing....this is an interesting story. When you feel like breaking Plan B (and you will), please look at what you wrote here.

You mom is the very definition of "cake-eater".....and your Dad ENABLES it.

This is what happens when one doesn't take a stand, nor stand by convictions.....

I am sorry to hear about your parents......One would think that watching her daughter go through this, that Mom would see the pain and devastation that affairs bring....

(((((Scotty and Dad)))))))

not2fun

ps...I can relate to the whole family drama....My sis had just ended her A when H started his....My mom and dad seperated (not A related, but my mom is a "lifer" wayward....) 1 week before my dday, and my MIL had left my FIL 2 months prior to Dday....very messy stuff....
You did great. I'm so sorry that you're hurting.

((((((((Scotland))))))))

You will make it! None of us have any doubt about that.

You were right about how he'd have kept cake eating forever. His head must have been spinning when he realized you had a plan.

A plan he never saw coming.

Stupid sloppy waywards...he needs to give OW "notice" Oh that is rich.

Be good to yourself. Extra good.

We're all praying for you.

Scotland ~

I was thinking about you all night last night...you did GREAT!! Truly awesome!! It could not have gone any better!

You will go up and down over the next few days...be prepared for the roller coaster of emotions. Here is my exposure/Plan B thread...you will see how I crashed really hard right after going into Plan B. It might help to know that others have been where you are right now and come out on the other side:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1832782&page=1

[P.S. What is your mom saying about all of this, knowing she did the exact same thing to your dad? Is she recognizing that the pain you are in right now is the same thing she is doing to your dad???]
I stand in awe of you, Scotland. Truly. Wow - OW is probably not used to your H being needy LOL. Because he can't look like anything BUT a needy loser right now. And the fantasy begins to fizzle...

Stay strong, girl - it's working for you.

{{{{Scotland}}}}
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/19/09 06:29 PM
Thank you all again. I know it was a true shock for him. As far as having to give OW notice. He also said when he was talking about somewhere to take the kids when he had them, I had said that I know he had somewhere to live. He corrected me by saying he had somewhere to stay not a place of his own. I was a little confused, did he really expect me not to see that he is moving IN with OW? Or maybe he was just not telling himself the truth yet. Well regardless, I am sure reality is setting in a bit.

He had asked me why I packed all of his tools because he was going to leave them here so he could fix things when they were broken. I responded with "My Dad and BIL will help me fix things I can't" and he just looked at me so I said "This is the reality of the situation."

As far as if my Mom sees it, I don't think so. I think she is really foggy still and I KNOW she is cake-eating. Actually my parents' sitch is part of the reason I knew I had to do what I did last night because I couldn't live the way they have been. It kills my Dad everyday and I know I couldn't do that.

I feel slightly guilty though, because I haven't really put pressure on her until now. She has always known that i don't like her THING(that's my term for POSOM) but I had tolerated it. When she wanted OM to come to my kids' xmas concert instead of my own Dad I lost it on her. I told her that I would never like him and that she shouldn't be mad at my WH for what he is doing because she did the same things. It was pretty ugly but I don't know how much of it sunk in.

I have tried to tell my Dad not to talk to her anymore and I know he has tried a couple of times but he gets sad with the withdrawals and he does get some needs met by talking to her.

It is a messed up sitch that I definitely didn't want to get myself in. That's why I am so glad to have found MB and all of you.
((( Dad )))

How old is your Dad?
Probably around my age (60).
He could use some MB support.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/19/09 06:53 PM
My Dad is 50 (he was 16 when I was born). He definitely could use some MB support but he won't come on. He doesn't use computers and he has a hard time talking about his feelings. I have explained the concepts and other things about this site but to my surprise most people don't understand MB concepts. I, myself, find them quite understandable and very straightforward.

I hope that maybe he will see how I am dealing with my sitch and maybe he will want to follow MB concepts then.
Posted By: Vittoria Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/19/09 07:12 PM
Stopped in to see how last night went ..... you did so well. hug Hold your head up high, very high for not caving in to adultery.

Originally Posted By: Scotland
He had asked me why I packed all of his tools because he was going to leave them here so he could fix things when they were broken. I responded with "My Dad and BIL will help me fix things I can't" and he just looked at me so I said "This is the reality of the situation.".

I've read similar things like this from BW's, WH's thinking they can still come and go,
have their cake but yet ease their guilt by
stoppin' around to 'fix things'.
Crazy talk .... and thinking.

I'm off to a Christmas gathering but did want you to know that I'm thinking of you, we all are! smile
Quote:
He corrected me by saying he had somewhere to stay not a place of his own.


Her place will always be "her place"...it will never be home.

You could not have picked a better time of year to Plan B him.
Posted By: Vittoria Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/19/09 07:26 PM
Originally Posted By: Vittoria
Originally Posted By: Scotland
He had asked me why I packed all of his tools because he was going to leave them here so he could fix things when they were broken. I responded with "My Dad and BIL will help me fix things I can't" and he just looked at me so I said "This is the reality of the situation.".

I've read similar things like this from BW's, WH's thinking they can still come and go,
have their cake but yet ease their guilt by
stoppin' around to 'fix things'.
Crazy talk .... and thinking.

brain fart ....... I suppose they do this too cuz they still want to be part of their family. IDK, I didn't have to deal with that.
Posted By: Vittoria Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/19/09 07:29 PM
Originally Posted By: Marshmallow
Quote:
He corrected me by saying he had somewhere to stay not a place of his own.


Her place will always be "her place"...it will never be home.

You could not have picked a better time of year to Plan B him.


I agree, although it's the toughest time to do this, it has a tremendous impact with Christmas being so family oriented.

Gotta go, I'm gettin' later by the minute!
Originally Posted By: Vittoria

brain fart ....... I suppose they do this too cuz they still want to be part of their family. IDK, I didn't have to deal with that.



Oh no, you were right...WH's DO want to come back to cake eat, (get their BS's fixes), as well as to try to ease their guilt, and get their family fixes.

It's all of those things.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/19/09 07:51 PM
I know that he wanted to cake eat that's why I made sure I had responses to things that he would say. He asked me how I would get to work if I didn't have the truck and I said "Family, friends, bus and taxi. Don't worry I will still be working." Then he asked what I would do for my night shifts and I said, "Oh, I changed my shifts to days so I don't have to worry about that." It was like he wanted to keep sticking himself in.

I think he was really surprised that I had a solid plan and not just flying by the seat of my pants. I don't know why that would surprise him though I ALWAYS plan. Things don't always go according to plan(it's called LIFE), but as long as I have a plan to follow I can do ANYTHING.
Hey scotland, now will be the time that you might start to doubt yourself. I pray you stay the course.

This guy would be crazy to not try and get his crap together and work on his marriage. What an awesome warrior of a wife he has.

I would not be as good of a judge as these veteran posters to tell you when or how to get him to help himself. But he needs to do the work now. When the other affair ends he still will need to do a lot of work even though he will want to come right home. I know he will want to come home.

Make him jump through the hoops that he needs to to get you back. You are worth it.
Quote:
I think he was really surprised that I had a solid plan and not just flying by the seat of my pants. I don't know why that would surprise him though I ALWAYS plan.


He was projecting. Since HE was flying by the seat of HIS pants in his fantasy world, he thought YOU were too.

What a tailspin he must be in.

Quote:
but as long as I have a plan to follow I can do ANYTHING.


Yes you can!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/19/09 09:39 PM
I had a hard time the night before Plan B. I cried a lot last night but it was mostly about the fact that he actually left. I know I was scared that he wouldn't go, but at the same time I had hoped he would finally wake up and choose me. He is a harder nut to crack I guess. ;D

He hasn't tried to call yet today and that is surprising me because I thought he would at least want to talk to the kids.

I WILL NOT be talking to him myself and I don't think he would actually try to talk to me.

My SIL wrote to me today and asked what was going on. She actually said some funny things to me about this stich. Funny only because she had an A four years ago and got pregnant and then left her husband for OM. She said she hoped that WH would not bring OW to xmas at MIL and I respectfully told her that either way I didn't want to know about it. I told her that I had to save myself from any more pain and stay out of his drama. I also said that this was the best way I could preserve the love I do have left in case there is a possibility of R of my M.

Honestly, I do worry about him though. I know it is going to be a while before I stop thinking about him and when triggers aren't there anymore. He was the first thing I had thought about for the past 18 years. I love the man he truly is. I hope he finds himself again and then finds his way back to us. Here's to keeping HOPE alive.
Originally Posted By: Scotland
Here's to keeping HOPE alive.


AMEN.

Hope and a plan ... awesome!
Scotland, do you have a DETAILED plan of what conditions need to be met in order for him to come home?

And most importantly, does your IM know what these conditions are?

WH may try to talk to you, and he may try to ignore/reneg the conditions in your PBL. If he does this, refer him to your IM. Tell him all info must go through your IM.

Then your IM can ask him if he is ready to meet your PB conditions. The first one many of us had met was the NC letter. When my H decided he wanted to come home, he sent a copy of the NC letter to our IM and she forwarded it to me. Then I knew he was serious and we started talking about reconciliation.

I am a bit worried that because of the holiday your WH may try this sooner rather than later and I don't want to see you in a False Recovery. You have to stand VERY FIRM in your conditions. FRs suck, you don't want that.

Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/19/09 10:50 PM
Quote:
I was a little confused, did he really expect me not to see that he is moving IN with OW?


At least in my case, FWH didn't see himself moving in with OW. He told her he wanted his own place so I would be comfortable coming there, too. rotflmao

That may be something like yours had in mind, as well. For sure you've put a dent in his happy little fantasy of what this was going to be like.

Cheers to tha gal with The Plan!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/19/09 11:02 PM
Well, another high hurdle is being jumped right now. My DS 6 asked if he could call WH and tell him he missed him? I said "Of course you can hunny." He called and there was no answer. He started to cry that he was really sad. Now, a half an hour later WH called him back. It is seriously killing me to have them talk to him and I m sitting right here. It really hurts.

I am trying to hold it together.

This is going to get hard to get used to.

OMG DS 6 asked to talk to OW. I whispered, "No" and he hung up the phone. I asked him to come into the washroom with me since WH was calling back. DS9 answered the phone and talked to him. When I talked to DS6 about why he did that he said, "You told me to tell her bad things." I said "I told you that you can tell her what you feel even if it was bad."

The call ended with crying on my DS9 end of the phone. I hugged him and he said that he was crying because Daddy was crying. He said that Daddy told him he would come over and make Hot chocolate with him. I told him that he can most certainly make HC with Daddy but it was not going to happen in this house. I said that hey are not supposed to let him in. They asked me why and I answered with "Because Daddy doesn't live here anymore."

It is a hard thing to deal with and I have to explain it calmly and easily for them to understand.

I asked DS 6 and 9 to please not talk to OW on the phone when I am around because it would hurt me too much. DS9 had told WH that DS6 got in trouble for what he said but since I have NC I didn't say anything in the background. I know I shouldn't have said anything when DS6 asked to speak to OW but I couldn't help it. I don't even know that WH would have let him talk to her but the thought just killed me.

Harder and harder everyday until it gets easier.....I know that everyone has said it but when you are in it, it is hard to believe.
Posted By: Lexxxy Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/19/09 11:02 PM
He wanted to leave the tools....

VERY telling. He really thought he could keep his "home" intact.

You did so very very well. I really admire your strength.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/19/09 11:09 PM
Lex- actually the whole time we spent together he was saying things like "We need to look at getting a new couch soon." "Maybe after christmas we can get a new fridge." "This tire will have to do until we can afford to get new ones." I knew not to fall for all of this WS alien babble because I heard my Mom and SIL tell their husbands things like this while they were planning how they were going to leave them.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/19/09 11:15 PM
MF- I have been reading your thread today, that's actually what I am doing right now.

I haven't sent my IM the info yet but I did place a copy behind the family picture(the one I sent with him). This is what it says (simple and to the point)

Before I will consider direct communication with you
1. You must WANT to work on our marriage
2. You must end the affair with OW
3. You will write a No Contact letter to OW and have it okayed by me and then I will send it.
4. You will leave WORKPLACE (unless she has left first)
5. You will agree to follow a marriage counseling plan of my choosing.
6. You will take a sexually transmitted disease test and I will see the results.

of course the marriage counseling plan is MB but I didn't want him to learn about this place UNTIL/IF he was going to come back.
Posted By: Lexxxy Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/19/09 11:21 PM
Scotty --

I wouldn't instruct your children to talk to OW at all.

They should be encouraged to tell their DADDY how they feel (even if its bad) -- but I wouldn't put that kind of trust in OW, that she would know what to do with hurting little kids.
Quote:
of course the marriage counseling plan is MB but I didn't want him to learn about this place UNTIL/IF he was going to come back.


Very smart thinking, young lady! Again...I am so proud of you!!!

[P.S. your conditions are great...please get a copy to your IM so that he/she will know what they are and can decide if he is serious about reconciliation per your conditions.]
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/19/09 11:29 PM
Well, I believe that at some point WH is going to introduce them. He (as far as his plan was) is supposed to live with OW and when he has the kids he will have nowhere to take them. I think he wanted to keep them here so his 2 worlds WOULDN'T collide. Well, that isn't possible. I didn't exactly ENCOURAGE them, I just let them know that when they met her they didn't HAVE to be nice. I raised my kids well and I have taught them to respect people. I was just letting them know that with her all bets are off and if they wanted to be mean to her they could. DS9 would NEVER think of it because he would be afraid of getting in trouble. DS6 on the other hand is a totally different person. The joke in the family is that he thinks so far out of the box that he is in someone else's box. I know that as far as family is concerned DS6 will be my best ally.

When I asked him what he was going to say he said "I was going to tell OW that I loved you MAMA." I told him that was nice but if he could please not talk to her while I was anywhere around. I told them that I don't want to hear anything about her unless she is doing something bad to them.
Quote:
I told them that I don't want to hear anything about her unless she is doing something bad to them.


You might have to open this up a bit.

6 and 9 year olds don't always know what bad is.

They need to talk to their Mommy about everything.

I think it is fine to tell them not to talk to her when you are around though.
I'm so sorry for what you and your boys are going through.

(((((Scotland)))))
Also...be sure to tell your boys that you WANT Daddy to come home so you can be a family again. But, that he can't come back as long as he has a GF.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/20/09 12:51 AM
Marsh- I have absolutely told them that. They were aware of that before today but I do make sure to tell them whenever it comes up.
Good job, Scot. I figured you had it covered. Just wanted to make sure. smile
Posted By: not2fun Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/20/09 04:29 AM
((((Scotty)))),

I just popped in to see how you are holding up.....

H and I were out shopping today at Macy's. We were in the Christmas section and they had this sign thingy (some sort of thing you hang on your door or something). Anyway it said on there...

"Life is always more successful when you have a plan B".....

Anyway, I thought of you and MB and had good laugh....

Stay strong girlfriend..... You are an inspiration

not2fun
Originally Posted By: Scotland
Honestly, I do worry about him though. I know it is going to be a while before I stop thinking about him and when triggers aren't there anymore. He was the first thing I had thought about for the past 18 years. I love the man he truly is. I hope he finds himself again and then finds his way back to us. Here's to keeping HOPE alive.


I know what that means scotland. My wife had some pretty unlovable character flaws she would fall into time to time. But I new the dreams she had given up on and that was who she "Really was".

Its hard to stand by and watch as they destroy the person you are in love with. Thats why the plan B of course.. But you know that.

Truly you are doing great
Yes its hard with the little children. They are forced to deal with real tough stuff before thier time. You will be there for them so the most important emotional support is intact.

Again hang tough, The gravity of what is happening is just starting to hit him. He is losing his home and family.

You are in my prayers
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/20/09 01:39 PM
Well, I honestly thought that HE would NOT try to break contact.

HOW WRONG WAS I?

I have told WH that he can call the kids whenever he wants and if the kids are available they will talk. Well, I woke up this morning to 2 messages at 730am. It must be because OW works at 7am so now he is ALONE today.

I let the kids talk to him but when he asked to speak to me I shock my head NO. That made my DS9 cry and i whispered "If you want you can hang up" and he did. Then WH called back and DS6 answered. When WH asked to speak to me again DS6 responded "Mommy will talk to you when you want to be a family with us again." Then WH said something and DS6 said "Sorry for what daddy" Then he said "Mommy, Daddy said Mommy and Daddy just can't get along anymore." Then he went back on the phone and said "Daddy Mommy loves you and we want to be a family again. I love you too Daddy. Where are you and why don't you come home." WH was trying to get the details on when a xmas party we are attending today is so he could come and I told DS9 he couldn't tell him that. See, this is a bad weekend for my IM because they are out of town till tomorrow for xmas. I honestly forgot about that when I made this the weekend to ask him to go.

Then I checked my email and guess what? I have 4. These are what he said

BS,

Please let DS9 read this email.

Please let him read it to DS6.

If he does not want to read it to DS6 please read it to them.


Hello DS9 and DS6,


I am really sorry I am not there right now. I love you so much and I really miss you guys.

Do not think that Daddy not being home is either of your faults. Neither one of you did anything wrong.

I am going to try to call you everyday. I want to hear about school. I want to hear about you guys playing games. I want to hear about everything.

I will have you guys over here for a sleepover after Christmas is over. We can build a fort if you want. Sleep inside it.

I am also going to write you an email every day. DS9 I want you to read it to DS6. When DS6 can read better he can read it to you.

If you want to email Daddy back I am sure if you ask Mommy she will show you. I would love to read an email from you guys.

I LOVE YOU DS9 AND DS6!!!!!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/20/09 01:44 PM
Then these 3 to me

I would like to come see the boys tomorrow.

I would like to be able to see them in their home. I dont mind if you are there....upstairs.....take the truck and go somewhere...I dont mind at all.

Please message me back that I can see them at their home.



Its really funny..you say..."Ive figured out what I need to do now."
Based on actions you have not figured out anything.

You have always tried to do things to get a reaction out of me. Ive never wanted to react because it would mostly been in anger. I kept it in and tried to keep it together for many years.

You still pushed.

Now you have dropped to the level of trying to use our kids against me. Still trying to get a reaction. Im still trying not to react and still trying to keep it in.

Why are you using the boys against me? Why are you using them as pawns?

I want to see them. They want to see me. What is wrong with that.

The plan I had figured out would have allowed me to see them 3-4 days a week in the comfort of their own home. I would have been the one put out. Going to bed really late on Wed and Thurs nights. Then having to get up early on Sat and Sun mornings.

That was not good enough for you to try to hurt me. You do realize you are hurting them as well.

Using them to talk for you instead of being an adult and talking for yourself.

I think DS6 said it best, "Why wont you let me see Daddy??"

Hes 6 years old.

I want to see them on Christmas morning when they open presents. So that does mean I want to come into their house.

I know this is probably asking the world from you but can you put my name on some of the presents? Please?

I dont wont to make this a who loves the kids more competition. I want them to know I love them. Im not going to go out and buy a whole new set of presents because WE cannot afford that.

Why wont you let them read THEIR email?
It was addressed to them.


I forgot to tell you.

I had to spend some money yesterday. I had to buy a charger for phone. This was 26 dollars. I also bought some groceries.

I hastily said I didnt want any when you offered. Then since you locked me out I didnt have a chance to get some.



Wow, great reading first thing in the morning. Well, I am NOT responding to the messages and the funny thing is I now KNOW he read my Plan B letter. SUCCESS. And Pepper, You were right on telling me to do this just before Christmas. I honestly didn't think it would matter much because he has always said that Christmas is too commercial.

Thanx people.
Dear Scotland... I feel for you. How hard this is; I don't have children with WW, so for me it's easier. And if it's easier for me, I can't imagine how painful this must be for you.

I am concerned about one thing, though. If you're in Plan B, why are you reading his emails? I know you said your IM was gone this weekend, but isn't that his problem, not yours?

Not that WW has made any attempt to contact me, but my Plan B letter to her specifically stated how and when she could contact me. Until then, if she were to email, text or call me, I would simply delete any message unread/unheard. That's a tough call, but I have to remain resolute.

As your post indicates, his breaking contact has put you into a tailspin. Who is suffering more right now, him or you?

Please consider what NO CONTACT means.

And that's as gentle a 2x4 as I can muster...
Posted By: catperson Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/20/09 04:24 PM
Please don't read ANY MORE messages. You can have you IM read them when they get back.
Quote:
I know this is probably asking the world from you but can you put my name on some of the presents? Please?


Don't reply to him.
Put "Daddy" on the gifts without comment.
It's the right thing to do at this time. For the Boys.
If plan B lasts into the New Year, he can buy his own presents.

He's not liking Plan B the cesspool puke lovenest very much. His mood will be ugly. He will not be "there" for OW ... his heart has been left behind, at home, with you and the boys.

Hang in there. WH's about to go nutzo!

First anger and "Now I'm really going to leave you" type threats.
Followed by attempts to inspire guilt.

WH has read the letter several times.
You know how stupid waynerds are ... the fog is too thick for actual recognition of truth until it smacks them upside the head. WH's been SMACKED good twoxfour


Originally Posted By: catperson
Please don't read ANY MORE messages. You can have you IM read them when they get back.


DITTO
Quote:
I honestly didn't think it would matter much because he has always said that Christmas is too commercial.



H is correct. Parts of Christmas are way too commercial. Those commercial parts are all he has left.
The really important parts of Christmas .... family time.
twoxfour

Sometimes you have to lose something to discover how important it is .


In case he follows you around and ambushes you....

Emergency pocket responses:

"It's all in the letter."
"The way back home is all in the letter."
"The requirements are in the letter."
"Have you met my requirements?"

... if he persists .... there is always a hand gesture (NO , not THAT one naughty ) ..

Hold your hand out like it is saying "Halt" ... and simply say "No!" ... walking away as fast as you can. If he follows you say "NO" as loudly as you can.




OK ... some Plan B stuff.

As soon as school reopens, go to the principal and also to the boys' teachers.

Tell them a version of this:

"My H and I are having serious marriage difficulties. We have separated.
No one but myself and my H are authorized to pick up the boys from school. Not any unknown female.
Please keep a close an eye on the boys. If they are having any difficulties please let me know right away."


Posted By: not2fun Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/20/09 05:13 PM
((((Scotland)))),

I would consider opening a seperate email account for your boys for communication with WH. That way you don't have to see it and yet the line of communucation is still open....

Hang in there...oh, and either block your WH's email account or change yours.....don't read his messages, just delete them....

and whatever you do....DO NOT BUY INTO HIS BULLCHIT about you using those kids...


not2fun
Posted By: reading Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/20/09 05:22 PM
He will test the boundaries. Waywards don't 'get' that their actions (the affair) has consequences (pain all around for everyone).

As Surviving An Affair says on page 88 (on the Plan B checklist):

- If there is acccidental contact between the wayward spouse and betrayed spouse, the betrayed spouse should avoid angry outbursts, disrespect, and demands.


If he shows up any place you are, be firm but loving as you ask him to respect your boundaries. The boundaries are to protect you from additional suffering from his actions.

Hug those boys and know that we all understand the parental angst of dealing with their fragile spirits. The waywards never, ever 'got' that the kids were going to be affected by their selfish acts.

Hugs.
Quote:

and whatever you do....DO NOT BUY INTO HIS BULLCHIT about you using those kids...


Absolutely.

He abandoned his boys. Doesn't matter that you asked him to leave. He had a choice. He could have said, NO, let's work on things for the boy's sake.

Instead, he chose to abandon them. And at Christmas no less.

There is no reason he can't take the kids to a McDonalds for hot chocolate and to play on the climbing stuff. He could take them to the mall to sit on Santa's lap. He could rent a hotelroom and take them there to play games w/.

Or....he could end this selfish A, and try to repair his M....his family.

Don't fall for any of his woe is me bull crap.

Like you told him, "This is the reality of the situation."

And it is hitting him HARD!!!!!!
The epitome of selfishness ... WS infidels want their BS to continue to suffer as a gesture of how much the BS loves/needs/wants the WS. In the foggy WS logic, BS suffering is OK if the results are the WS can have what they want.

The only way this is possible is if the BS loses self respect and surrenders to their own weakness of character.

Our girl Scotland is NOT that girl.
Unfortunately, her Dad is weak.

My hope is that her Dad gets stronger after observing how strong and brave his daughter has become!






Posted By: not2fun Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/20/09 05:35 PM
Originally Posted By: Pepperband


My hope is that her Dad gets stronger after observing how strong and brave his daughter has become!


I SOOOOO agree with this Pep......
Originally Posted By: Pepperband
The epitome of selfishness ... WS infidels want their BS to continue to suffer as a gesture of how much the BS loves/needs/wants the WS. In the foggy WS logic, BS suffering is OK if the results are the WS can have what they want.

The only way this is possible is if the BS loses self respect and surrenders to their own weakness of character.

Our girl Scotland is NOT that girl.
Unfortunately, her Dad is weak.

My hope is that her Dad gets stronger after observing how strong and brave his daughter has become!


Excellent post!
Originally Posted By: not2fun
Originally Posted By: Pepperband


My hope is that her Dad gets stronger after observing how strong and brave his daughter has become!


I SOOOOO agree with this Pep......

Can I have an "Amen" . . . ?
Posted By: not2fun Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/20/09 05:53 PM
Originally Posted By: Scotland
Hello DS9 and DS6,


I am really sorry I am not there right now. I love you so much and I really miss you guys.

Do not think that Daddy not being home is either of your faults. Neither one of you did anything wrong.

I am going to try to call you everyday. I want to hear about school. I want to hear about you guys playing games. I want to hear about everything.

I will have you guys over here for a sleepover after Christmas is over. We can build a fort if you want. Sleep inside it.

I am also going to write you an email every day. DS9 I want you to read it to DS6. When DS6 can read better he can read it to you.

If you want to email Daddy back I am sure if you ask Mommy she will show you. I would love to read an email from you guys.

I LOVE YOU DS9 AND DS6!!!!!



Scotty,

I want to warn you....whatever WH promises those kids, PLEASE take it with a grain of salt.....

Meaning, don't put too much hope into this, and prepare yourself for when he breaks those promises....AND HE WILL!!!!

Right now, he is bargaining....with himself. He is telling himself (and in his foggy, pea-soup mushy little brain he BELIEVES this.....poor sap) that he will BE A GOOD FATHER. That this is BEST for everyone involved including the kids. And right now he is telling himself he will do great things for them, with them and life will be GREAT. And he will tell the kids this, because, sigh, he truly thinks this is true.....

BUT, when the time comes, when he has those kids, "life" will get in the way. "SHE" will get in the way.

And when this happens, your kids will be hurt/sad/angry....and unfortunately you will get the brunt end of this....You should console them, cry with them, and remind them that they need to tell WH all that they are feeling.

My WH did all of this. He promised the kids they would spend more time together. That on the weekends he had them they would have fun, they could swim in the pool at the condo they had rented, they could talk every day, and anytime they called him, he would answer and be there.....He also tried to "convince" OW of this....(I cannot even begin to tell you the silly emails I got a hold of, how him moving out brought him and the kids closer, blah blah blah...its sad and almost comical to think of them NOW, but at the time....ohhhh, lets just say, he was lucky he wasn't anywhere near me when I read those...)

Anyway, he BROKE each and every one of those promises. They never went swimming in the pool, most of the kids calls went unanswered (especially when he was with OW....couldn't have calls from the children breaking up that fantasy...), on the weekends he had them, they were largely ignored while he was on the computer and phone with OW....

Anyway, the is much more I could mention, but I wanted to prepare you for this.....so you can prepare, as much as possible anyway, for this to happen.

WH is very much in the thick of fog and fantasy of the affair......unfortunately, its you and kids that get the brunt of it......

Now, go do something fun with those beautiful boys of yours.....if you got any of this snow (I didn't get enough.... grumble) go sledding, build a snow family, build a fire and snuggle up to a good book or family movie, pop some popcorn, or make smore's in the fireplace.....do something fun and happy for ALL of you.....

not2fun
Originally Posted By: Scotland
I would like to come see the boys tomorrow.

I would like to be able to see them in their home. I dont mind if you are there....upstairs.....take the truck and go somewhere...I dont mind at all.


Scotland, does he have a way to get into your home? If so, I would block it ASAP. A WS will try to get into the house in order to assuage his homesickness. He is trying to get a family FIX by getting in the house, but it is a huge mistake to allow him in. Plan B should mimic what his life is going to like as a divorced person so he should have no access to the house.

Do you have a plan in case he tries to come in your house tomorrow? You did tell him he can't come in, right?

BTW, you are doing a GREAT JOB!! I am so proud of the way you have stood up for your marriage, S! hurray
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/20/09 05:57 PM
1. Block his email addy immediately, if you haven't already done this.

2. Give no sign whatsoever that you received any of them, including the one to the boys. (Putting his name on the gifts as Pep suggested doesn't count - that's something you would likely have done anyway, just to be kind.)

3. Set up their own email account for the boys. Let them email their dad and tell him they have it.

4. If he continues to abuse the terms of Plan B through the boys' email account, close it down and let the IM's spam-filter their emails, too.

5. Talk to your boys again (and again as needed), and let them know that while they shouldn't carry messages to you from either WH or OW, but they are ALWAYS welcome to talk to you about their feelings, and things that bother them about the situation.

Well, Plan B is off and rolling!
Posted By: not2fun Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/20/09 06:32 PM
Scotty,

One last thing.....

How are YOU holding up???....

The beauty of Plan B is taking care of you. You have removed yourself from the abuse of WH and the sickness of what is going on, and now you can TRULY concentrate on YOU.

If you haven't done so, I suggest making an appt. with your Dr. asap. Get a check up. You could probably use one anyway. Make sure your body is functioning the way it needs to and keep it at the optimum of health. Let your Dr. know what you are going through, so that way if you need anything he will be up to speed. This is key to taking care of YOU. The bodily tolls of affairs on the BS can be devastating (I lost my gall-bladder..... grin).

Also, I suggest an IC. You may need one for the boys as well. This will a key mental growth period for them. How they learn to deal with negative emotions, anger, and pain will carry them through their lives. If they learn positive ways, they will thank you forever.....

I also suggest journaling. This helped me loads even in Plan A.

Make a list of things you have always wanted to do. DREAM BIG...It can include something as big as a trip to Paris or even the blah stuff as finally getting that basement organized (I transferring a little here....). Whatever you choose. Then start working on that list.....whatever it may be....

I also wanted to suggest looking into a kick-boxing class. This is a WONDERFUL way to workout those anger issue's. And it works up those endorphines, muscles, and bones all of which is nothing but BENEFITAL to you......

And lastly, remember, you have done such a wonderful job in holding everything together during this trying time. And when you look in the mirror, be nothing but PROUD!!!!!

not2fun
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/20/09 06:38 PM
Hey everyone. I just came back form a Christmas Party with my boys. There was food, dancing, santa, presents, magic shows and games. They had fun and we brought my Dad with us(WH ticket had already been bought why should it go to waste?) My Dad had fun (although he spent most of the time looking for someone to take home GAG).

When I got home there were two more messages on the machine. WH said "Thanx a lot for letting me come all the way to my house and see that my kids weren't home." Delete, delete.

My IM called me too. They are home now and SURPRISE SURPRISE WH hasn't even called them ONCE.

I told them that I would get them a copy of my requirements for contact. I also let them know that they are NOT to pass on ANY emotions at all. They are just supposed to filter things to me about dates and times for visiting. They have agreed but I am aware I may have to "remind" them every now and then.

As far as the presents were concerned, I was already telling the boys that the presents they get this year are from both of us because it was both of our money. They understood that already so that part didn't really affect me.

I didn't read them the email he wrote them yet. I wasn't sure if I should. I figured that any information he had to tell them he could do on the phone since I have let them talk to him when they were available and when they wanted to.

WH does not have access to the house. He gave me back our keys. He wasn't going to at first but as soon as he started packing up his stuff I just asked for them again and he gave them to me. I don't always lock the door when I go out for a short time but now I do ALWAYS.

I know why he is doing this today, it is probably because OW works on Sundays so he is there alone. We did not have arrangements for him to see them today and the boys and I already had plans. If he does not contact IM for visitations soon then he won't see them until Saturday.

I made the kids their own email address. I am blocking WH from mine now. Thanx.
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/20/09 06:44 PM
Sounds great!

Just expect that for a while, he's going to keep trying to break through. Expect it so it doesn't throw you too badly off-kilter, and just figure out a way to block each new way as it occurs.

Also, why not just unplug your answering machine? If you have caller ID you can see who called, and he won't be able to keep leaving messages. (The fact that it just rings and rings and rings when you aren't home and will probably drive him even nutser is just an added bonus you don't want to bother dwelling on, lol.)
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/20/09 06:48 PM
not2fun- well I have always been writing a journal. It has always helped me stay sane. I have A LOT of friends I can talk to and that has been great. I don't know what it is but I actually feel BETTER emotionally. I am more at peace.

My IM told me that I sound much better right now and she is happy for that. She understands that I am doing what I think best for me and the boys and she will help in whatever way I need. I told her that saving me from WH emotional outbursts will help a lot. She agreed. We have made arrangements for us to go there and visit after Christmas as they have some presents for the boys (they are like surrogate grandparents).

I started doing some pilates. I also am reading and watching movies to get LOST some times. I cry when I am alone in bed but it isn't as long as it used to be. I woke up these past 2 mornings with a smile on my face because my boys came in to wake me up.

I am focused on the tasks I have to do and Christmas. Don't get me wrong, I do have hard moments but they are better than what I was feeling like when WH was here and carrying on his A right in front of my face. I am even eat better and sleep better (not perfect but 5 hours of sleep and eating twice a day was better than a month ago). I honestly thought I would feel more sad but I guess it is because I am away from the adultery and fear of his actions.
Scotland, for your own sake, do not listen to his voice mails!!! He is violating the no contact clause of Plan B (of course, he doesn't know about Plan B, but you have told him that you will not accept any calls, emails, text messages, etc.).
I know you are looking after your boys, but every time you hear his voice you are "resetting the clock" on your Plan B. You need to become invisible to him, and he to you.

I admire your strength and determination. Do this for your own good!
Hang in scotland. The Plan B just b4 the holidays was strategic in his seeing what he was losing. Unfortunatly one of the side effects was the stress on you and your children.

You are doing an outstanding job,

You have shown him that you love him and want a Family again.

You have stated in your letter how he can earn his way back into your life.

You have IMs that know what to tell you if that happens.

Do everything nessesary to keep him out of your mind for now. everyone here has allready given good ideas

God bless ya Scotty we are all here
Posted By: johnstwin Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/20/09 09:52 PM
Hi Scotland-

Here is my "translation" of what your WH really was saying in his email to you;


I want to be able to cake-eat. I want to be able to get my "family fix" when I want to and, if you don't let me, I will accuse you of using the kids against me.

I want to maintain the fantasy that my A doesn't have ANY impact on our boys so I will blame you for any pain they feel to keep that fantasy intact. I also want to maintain my fantasy that we will be able to get along and the boys will not notice any difference if I continue on this path.

I don't want to accept any blame for any of this so I will be nasty to you until you "own" my choices.

So there....



BTW-I agree with the others that you are doing a fantastic job.
Posted By: MicheleG Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/20/09 10:27 PM
That translation is dead on. Nice Johnstwin.
Posted By: Miss M Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/21/09 12:43 AM
Scotland,

You are doing very well so far. Glad to see you are getting such wonderful advice. ESPECIALLY from Pepperband. (love u pep kiss)

Anyway, was just thinking, could you steer your dad towards MB? Your decision. Don't want him looking for ow to take home when he is in the midst of turmoil in his marriage. It really might do him some good. Especially towards his personal recovery.

Keep up the good work, you are WORTHY! grin

Be careful with your 6 YO. He somehow got it wrong that he was supposed to be mean to ow. LOL rotflmao Just make sure he has things straight in that 6 YO brain when you talk to him. You don't want any potential LB's.

And be prepared for your WS to try and break plan B. I think they all try that.

Love in Christ,
Miss M
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/21/09 02:39 AM
I think DS6 is having a hard time understanding what I meant. I was just trying to tell him that if he ever felt like he had something to say that he normally would get in trouble for he could go ahead and say it.

I do agree that I have to not read any emails and not listen to his messages. He at first was leaving messages for the boys (or at least that's what he was saying) and I wanted to make sure they would hear those.

Johnstwin- I too agree that that's what he was saying in his email. There was a lot of venom in there but I was not taking any of it to heart. I actually was laughing at most of it because all I really took from it was

"I read your letter. I am confused. I feel guilty about leaving the boys. I am hurting. I am MAD at you for not following what I wanted. I can't believe you are standing up to what I was doing. I can't have my cake. WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I want my cake. I am going to accuse you of using the kids so I can threaten with me taking them cuz I know that will hurt you. How is my fantasy world gonna mesh with my real world? I am gonna be a good dad and noone can say different, especially you. If I am not able to be a good Dad it is YOUR fault." Etc.

I understood what was between the lines and you know what I really was just laughing because I honestly believed he WOULDN'T even try to break the NC with me ever. I thought he would be different. I know I keep seeing that he is EXACTLY like every other WS. I am like many BS. This is my best chance and MB concepts DO work so it may work out. If it doesn't I did my BEST to save my M and I will live my life with NO REGRETS.

As far as my Dad, I have tried. I think he is in a Plan D right now. It is a little sick to watch because I see that he still gets needs met by my Mom and that is why he is talking to her still.

WH called just now. It is 930pm and he KNOWS the kids go to bed at 8pm. I didn't listen to the message but I know it is something along the same lines as before I am sure. I don't know what to do if he comes here and rings the doorbell. I know I don't go or let the kids go to the door. Would I then turn off my phone and the house phone and answering machine so he doesn't try to call and sway them to go out.

He hasn't even tried to call the IM and ask them to pass messages on to me. How do I handle this one? I think he is going to try to come see them after work sometime this week. Maybe as early as tomorrow. HELP.
Somebody call the WAhhhhhhhhhambulance ... his widdle feewings are hurted. dramaqueen
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/21/09 03:42 AM
Pepper- I always LOVE when you do those ones.

Can I give you a laugh? I was reading one of my friends status updates on FB (he ALWAYS has hilarious ones) and there were two I wanted to tell you guys.

Did you hear about the lady who put Santa behind bars? He called her "HO" not once, not twice but THREE times. LOL

If chicken legs are really legs and chicken breasts are really breasts......I am NOT ordering chicken BALLS anymore HAHAHAHAHA

I know they are silly but I needed a laugh and these sure did the trick so I thought I would pass them along HAHAHAHA
Posted By: catperson Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/21/09 04:08 AM
Quote:
WH called just now. It is 930pm and he KNOWS the kids go to bed at 8pm. I didn't listen to the message but I know it is something along the same lines as before I am sure. I don't know what to do if he comes here and rings the doorbell. I know I don't go or let the kids go to the door. Would I then turn off my phone and the house phone and answering machine so he doesn't try to call and sway them to go out.
You treat him JUST LIKE any other STRANGER coming to your house. Would you open the door for a stranger? NO!

Right now, he is NOT your husband. He is an alien. Until your IM tells you that he is ready to meet your requirements, he is DEAD to you.
Posted By: catperson Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/21/09 04:10 AM
Speaking of Santa...

What is the difference between Santa and Tiger Woods? Santa stopped at three Ho's.
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/21/09 04:13 AM
Your IM's need to contact him with a little welcome note.

"Hi WH,

This is John and Jane Smith, whom your wife has chosen to be her intermediaries during this time.

Your wife has asked us to let you know that the boys will be available for visitation on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Friday, from 6:00 pm to 7:30 pm. You will be picking them up from Dietert Park, and dropping them off at the same location.

If you are able to make it for any or all of the proposed visitations, please give a minimum of 24 hours notice.

Thanks,
John and Jane Smith"
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/21/09 04:22 AM
Some other thoughts:

If you have someone to come to the house, either a family member or just a babysitter, there may be times you are willing to ~try~ letting him pick up and drop the kids off at home, with you gone and whoever is there knowing they are not to let him in. That's why it would need to be someone strong enough to say no to him.

As he settles more into the routine of Plan B, you may even be able to have him pick up and drop the kids off from you, just having them ready to walk out the door the instant he pulls up so you don't see him and he doesn't see you. He's likely to show up a little early or a little late to try and catch you, so always be alert on that one.

I just don't think you're going to have any peace while he can get to your answering machine. If you get the boys a shared cell phone, he can leave messages there. Prepaid phones can be fairly inexpensive, and some, like Tracfone, don't have any service contracts. You just buy minutes as you need them, and the service days extend automatically.

Since he hasn't gone off on your IM's yet, or contacted them in any way, that's why they need to announce their presence to him. Prepare them that he may be very angry so they aren't caught off guard, and let them know in advance how much you appreciate their vital services.

If your IM's have any trouble, let us know. There are some really good threads on IM's here that you could print out for them that would answer most of their questions.

Two days down, and well done.
Posted By: Lexxxy Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/21/09 04:30 AM
You are doing fabulous Scotty!

You are a natural.

Hang in there -- its very common for WS to circumvent your Plan B. Just learn from his attempts, and block those holes.

Block email.

Have IM's begin contact with him.

His statement about wanting to visit the kids in their home is a big sign that he's missing the comforts of home. He's starting to realize what being a part-time-dad is all about. This is going to be a light-bulb moment for him. If you were to divorce him, he would NEVER be allowed into your home.

He's going to start wondering about what being replaced might feel like. What if his Xwife were to get remarried??? He'll start picturing those scenarios, and start realizing how much he DOESN'T want that to happen....

Hang in there Scotty-girl!
Scotty,

First, I have to say that I admire what you've been able to do.

The only thing I think you should stop immediately, is the coaching of the kids on the phone. This really puts them in the middle and what is happening right now is very traumatic for them.

They're confused and don't understand. I believe you should take a stand and forbid your kids from seeing OW and getting a legal order that she is not to be around your kids. Can you sue her for alienation of affection?

Please get some guidance on how to handle things with your kids. The best thing you can do is to walk away when they are on the phone and let them feel alone with Dad on the phone.

Everything you're doing is spot on. It's the phone thing with the kids that concerned me the most.

But please understand that I know you will have your stumbles regarding the kids and what is righ to do. I had plenty of them on my end and made some big mistakes when I look back.

Just learn from them and move on. The WH will eventually get it and will stop trying to contact you.

One suggestion, if you can do it, is to setup a phone that is just theirs for him to call.

He will be the one to try to constantly use the boys to get info on you or to engage with you.

It's a tough game, but he will eventually get it to stop trying to communicate with you. It was a tough thing for my wxw to learn. It took a professional to intervene and finally get her to understand that short of blood being on the ground and someone about to die that she didn't need to contact me about the kids unless it was an emergency.

What sort of visitation did you write out for him?
Yeah sweety. get crackin ' with those IMs and get a shared cell for the boys.

Is there any form of pressure from an authority you can use to get him to stop contacting you like he is?

You spelled it out in the letter. This is disrespect for your feelings still and why you are doing a plan B. You need to preserve your capacity to love him and he is working to destroy it. You deserve to be respected. YOUR feelings are at stake here. You need to be able to remain sane during the pain he has caused you. For you and Boys sake.

Considering that he is still trying to eat cake and feels entitled to your home and company/interaction I would suggest that you do something to get him to back off.

1st the IMs and if that doesn't work tell him you will issue a restraining order.

In the end you are preserving yourself. remember you? The one he promised to protect?

Well he quit and is not up to the job right now. He doesn't get the fringe benifets.

Another concern--- He left such an awesome women<<No joke, he must be hitting the wall with all his BullS. Probably hard. What is his stat of mind? He still feels entitled? Might be dangerous right now if he melts down.
Again can the IMs discern whether this might be the case?

Anyways he needs to talk to someone. Just not you.

Hang in there, your a Hero
I wouldn't threaten a RO.

But, I would be sure to put a radio, or TV in a room that was the farthest from the door WH would use to try to get you to let him inside. And at the first sight of him, I'd send the boys to that room to watch TV or listen to music...nice and loud.

You could tell him to call the IM to set up when you would like to take the boys somewhere. And then tell him you're walking away from the door now.



Yes, have your IMs email/call him to let them know all info is to go through them. The can reiterate that it is purely because it is just too painful for you to be in contact with him right now as long as he still has a "girlfriend".

Is there any reason why your IMs can't be reached by cell phone when they are not at home to intercept emails from him?

We used a LOT of text messaging with our IM when we were in Plan B. This worked out GREAT because 1.) TMs generally need to be fairly short...it's too much of a pain to write anything very emotional and 2.) it's instantaneous.

Can your IMs do this for you?
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/21/09 05:15 PM
Thanx SO. I contacted my IMs this morning and they agreed to send him an email to get the ball rolling. She said she was going to write something simple like "WH this is IM. BS has chosen IM and IM to be her intermediaries at this time. BS has informed us that you can have access to DS9 and DS6 as long as you go through us to make the arrangements. Call us anytime. Take Care."

She agreed with me that he may not feel comfortable right now in calling them for fear that they would be on my side and be preaching to him (they have NO SIDE and they will not preach to him). They understand their role and I hope he will use this opportunity to contact them so he can visit the children. He has to get over the fact that he can't come and see them here.

Wow, what is going on in his brain? Does he really think this is the best option right now? I can't have him visit the children in their home because everyday he leaves it will be like he is leaving them again and again and how can they(or I for that fact) get over it if we feel like it is happening 3-4 times a week?

I am unplugging my answering machine. If he wants to leave them a message, he can write them an email to THEIR email address. I have told them they can talk to him whenever they want on the phone so he shouldn't have to leave them messages. This will stop him from calling me and leaving me messages when he knows they wouldn't be available.
Quote:
Wow, what is going on in his brain?


This:
Click to reveal..
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat the hell just happened?
Your poor poor WH.
A lost lamb.

Here's my not-funny reply.

WH cannot believe his life has become this much of a suck-fest.
He feels like a loser and a failure.
He feels "things" have gotten so bad and so broken there is "no hope".

He is all about his feelings (sad/anger/sad/anger) , and there is actually very little thinking with rational logic going on.

BACK to YOU ... what wonderful lifting things have you got planned for today?

Name 3.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/21/09 05:24 PM
MF- unfortunately my IM do not have a cell phone. They barely go on the internet and their home phone is the only way to contact them. They generally don't go out much so they can get messages and respond within a couple of hours. The thing is WH hasn't even called ONCE so he is trying to circumvent them completely. That makes me MAD. I feel a bit disrespected by this. I mean WH is the one who has caused me so much pain and he seems to be okay with causing me further pain by contact.

I was VERY clear that I couldn't have contact with him because I was being hurt by adultery and I couldn't allow myself to be hurt anymore. He is simply thinking about how to ease HIS pain and who cares who it affects.

The IM's email is sent. The ball is in his court, let's hope he runs with it. If he doesn't that isn't my fault though. I have given him ground rules to this situation and if he doesn't want to follow these 3 simple things (NC with me while he has a girlfriend, contact IM for visitations not previously determined and that he is not to enter the house) then it isn't my fault.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/21/09 05:31 PM
Well, let's see. I think I will make PANCAKES for LUNCH. YEP breakfast for LUNCH. The boys will help me make them. DS6 LOVES to cook.

Then I think video games where they will kick my butt cuz I SUCK.

A walk in the dusting of snow we got overnight. Maybe go to 7-11 for Hot chocolate.

Then tonight we will cuddle up on the couch with blankets and popcorn and watch a movie.

Sounds good.

Oh and last night, we went to the Olympic Torch celebration in our city. It was a blast. I found myself so caught up in the moment that we were laughing and singing and dancing. We had a BLAST and it was a once in a lifetime opportunity to see the Olympic Flame. Memories I make sure to make with DS x2 that will last a lifetime.
Excellent!

I saw the Olympic torch when it went through Los Angeles ... in Chinatown.
Hilarious place to be ... dancing dragons .... clowns on unicycles ... drag queens .... this is LaLa land, after all. lashes
Posted By: Lexxxy Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/21/09 05:45 PM
Scotty--

Disrespected and anger are exactly the right emotions for the situation you are in. So by that barameter, I would say you are doing EXCELLENT!

Scotty -- I was a wayward. So I know that your WH thought he could manipulate the situation to his advantage. He thought by giving you that date out in February, that he was giving you time to adjust. He thought that you would be calm, and content with the decision by then. He thought that you would be a friendly co-parent, and that you would be happy with those little scraps. He thought he would basically keep the status quo at home (he just wouldn't sleep there anymore). He thought his "home" would remain intact (all his tools, possessions, etc. in their place) Hardly any disruption at all.

You really shook up his world. He's going to rage and rail at these changes! He never wanted a taste of divorce world, because he thought that would never apply to him.

He really thought he could keep you in place.

In actuality, when February came he probably would have extended it out further -- because you see, he was really quite satisfied with having both a wife and a girlfriend.

He of course had to make it LOOK like he was leaving you -- because OW probably threw some ultimatums his way. He has probably made her all sorts of promises about them being together *forever!* (blechhhh!)

I'm so glad you have a little "handful" in DS6. There is nothing like a big ol dose of kid-initiated reality for OW.
I forget -- does she have any children?

There was one poster here a few years back that I thought was REALLY on the right track! She was in a great Plan A. Her husband was involved with a young OW. BW actually suggested to her WH that he should have nearly FULL custody of their 4 daughters for a little while (to help them adjust!)......hehehe. He had thought he was going to have the life of a rock star -- partying with this young little thing. Instead BW got the lifestyle he thought he was gonna have, and he was tied down with an unhappy OW, and 4 raging pre-pubescent girls!

Lex is correct.

Quote:
In actuality, when February came he probably would have extended it out further -- because you see, he was really quite satisfied with having both a wife and a girlfriend.



In Feb he would have told OW:

"I can't move out right now. My boys need me to (insert blah blah blah) and the wife is about to have a nervous breakdown because (blah blah blah).

Truth is, WHs usually desire to FREELOAD the OW (their 20%) but don't actually want to be the BUYER in that relationship.

Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/21/09 06:00 PM
Lexxxy- thanx for that sitch of that other poster. That gave me a good LOL moment. Yes OW has a D11. Her father is not involved at all and that one fateful night when I called OW she tried to hurt me by saying she will get pregnant by WH and that her DD already calls my WH "Daddy". I know she was trying to hurt me but why would I care what OW D11 called my WH?

As far as what my WH wanted I have stated it like this. His sitch last week was Family with GF on the side. He was just gonna flip it and have GF with Family on the side.

I also think you are right that he has been making her promises.

I know that he was trying to make me happy enough. He knows that the kids are my world and that they mean everything to me. I, like many mothers, make supreme sacrifices to make sure they get their needs met. WH knows this all too well and I believe was using this. I am still thinking about them just in a different way.

They need a mom who is strong and emotionally stable. They deserve to feel safe from harm, especially in their own home. They are entitled to a HAPPY Mom to share laughs with and create the basis of family that they will carry in to their own marriages. This is what I am giving them by doing what I am in my current situation.

SEE? I really am feeling better about the whole situation and that scares me a little. I feel like I should have been more upset about WH leaving. I guess my head has taken over for now so I see the positives instead.
Quote:
her DD already calls my WH "Daddy"


Oh good, she's really, really STUPID !
Dollars to donuts your WH is not the first man DD11 has called "daddy".

If this is true (and if it is, this is one really stupid OW), your sons will NOT take kindly to a stranger's child taking over their daddy.

Never confront her again, her stupidity is going to become WH's reality puke

Posted By: Lexxxy Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/21/09 07:31 PM
Ironic isn't it? Your WH probably felt sorry for OW. The poor single woman having to do it all on her own....

And he just put his own family into that very category.

* * *

Anyways Scotty, go out and have some fun! It sounds like you already are!

On the evenings that your sons are with BH -- go out with some girlfriends! Take really excellent care of yourself...
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/21/09 07:36 PM
DON'T worry Pep, I am SOOOOOOOOOOOOO over HER.

I did make a comment though. I said, "I really don't care what your daughter calls him. But are you sure she shouldn't be calling him "UNCLE" since I am sure she has had A LOT of those." Not my finest moment but it felt good at the time.

I don't think she is just stupid, I also think she is really IMMATURE. Well, I hope they have FUN together. LOL
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/21/09 07:37 PM
Lexxxy- funny you said that because that is exactly what I told WH when he first told me he was leaving me.
Posted By: johnstwin Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/21/09 08:32 PM
Hi Scottie!

I just read about the Olympic torch festival you attended and am wondering if you are a "neighbor"? I live in the northwest corner of Washington AC (above California)in the Skagit Valley, less than an hour from the border-BC area.

Hang in there-you are doing great!
Posted By: Tabby1 Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/21/09 08:35 PM
Hi Johnstwin - I doubt Scotland is your neighbour. The Olympic torch is currently making its rounds through Ontario. It was in my city on Saturday, so I think she might live close to me!
Originally Posted By: Scotland
As far as what my WH wanted I have stated it like this. His sitch last week was Family with GF on the side. He was just gonna flip it and have GF with Family on the side...

EGG-Zactly

Originally Posted By: Scotland
..I said, "I really don't care what your daughter calls him. But are you sure she shouldn't be calling him "UNCLE" since I am sure she has had A LOT of those." Not my finest moment but it felt good at the time.

Rofl

Boy I hope that he has a sense of humor and can laugh at his foolishness if he comes back.

You guys could use a laugh together
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/21/09 10:55 PM
Tabby1- well I guess since it was Saturday that I went to see the torch we just might be neighbours. (especially since we both spelled neighbour with a U hehehehehe) I live in a well-known Canadian city. It's neighbour is an equally well-known city for the same natural wonder ;D Just in case anyone didn't get it, yes, it is Niagara Falls.

The boys watched Home Alone on TV today. They absolutely loved it, but why not because it is a story about a little boy who gets to stay home alone. I forgot how funny that movie is.

WH talked to the boys tonight and I walked out of the room and sat in the bathroom. After they hung up, DS9 said "Daddy wants me to pass on a message." I simply said "No". He said "But Daddy wants to know about Christmas." I said "he needs to talk to IM buddy not pass messages through you and your brother." I then said "You will see Daddy Saturday."

I know that is a long time but if WH doesn't talk to IM that is the first time he is supposed to see them.

Well, I can't feel guilty about that because I haven't asked for outlandish things for him to do. It is quite simple really. OH NO is that a DJ? Even if it is, I am not saying it to him I am saying it about him. ;D
Posted By: catperson Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/21/09 11:30 PM
Originally Posted By: Pepperband
Excellent!

I saw the Olympic torch when it went through Los Angeles ... in Chinatown.
Hilarious place to be ... dancing dragons .... clowns on unicycles ... drag queens .... this is LaLa land, after all. lashes
Cool!

My H was one of the runners of the torch about 10 years ago. Cool stuff.
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/21/09 11:30 PM
rotflmao The Man from Uncle rotflmao
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/22/09 12:57 AM
I know I am NOT supposed to read text messages but this one was right on the front of my phone when I looked at it. It was from WH and it said "There is something wrong with the answering machine." HAHAHAHAHAHA Yea do you think? It's UNPLUGGED. HAHAHAHAHA He tried to call 6 times but the boys didn't answer the phone and I was in the shower. I told them they can answer when it is Daddy but I guess they didn't want to.

Had a nice walk around the neighbourhood looking at all of the Christmas lights. Now we are watching Ant Bully.
Originally Posted By: Scotland
"There is something wrong with the answering machine." HAHAHAHAHAHA Yea do you think? It's UNPLUGGED. HAHAHAHAHA


Posted By: reading Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/22/09 01:30 AM
Hahahahaha on the answering machine.

About a month before I went to plan B, I got caller ID added to our landline. WH knew it and I told him how cool it was to see that telemarketers were calling and who called while everyone was out.

Well, he didn't figure out it was actually so I would know when it was HIM when he left! Took him a long time to realize I could tell it was him. I am not sure he has figured it out yet...lol.

Gotta laugh as humorous stuff to counterbalance the not funny parts!
Posted By: optimism Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/22/09 04:01 AM
Quote:
They need a mom who is strong and emotionally stable. They deserve to feel safe from harm, especially in their own home. They are entitled to a HAPPY Mom to share laughs with and create the basis of family that they will carry in to their own marriages. This is what I am giving them by doing what I am in my current situation.

As I read in another thread (as stated by a vet), they also need to know they have at least one parent with some INTEGRITY.

Scot. You rock so much. You will be alright. Your kids will be alright. I pray that your WH will also be alright eventually. Stay strong - you're an inspiration.

opt
Ok Mel now that was just too cool.

You got mutley laughin
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/22/09 05:45 PM
Okay, so this morning DS9 asked me to log in to their email because Daddy promised he would send them a message this morning. I had my fingers crossed that WH would actually write them their email. Well he did. DS9 read it out loud to DS6 and guess what it said.

"Good Morning. I am going to come and see you today as soon as I get off of work."

OH NO. What do I do now? I told DSx2 that Daddy can not come to see them today because he hasn't talked to IM yet. DS9 said "We should write him an email to tell him that."

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

My Dad asked me if I wanted to go anywhere today and I was seriously thinking about not being here when he gets here but the question is how long would he wait?

Well, this is gonna get interesting. I was thinking about caving because I know the kids miss him terribly. The thing is I know he doesn't just want to pick them up, WH wants to come in the house and have his visit. Don't worry I WILL NOT CAVE.
Posted By: Tabby1 Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/22/09 05:52 PM
How about leaving for the afternoon - go out for dinner, visit family, last minute Christmas shopping or whatever you can come up with to keep you out all evening. Leave a note on your front door informing him that if he wishes to visit his children he must make the appropriate arranges through the IM as directed. Or better yet, have a neighbour keep watch for him and hand deliver the note so he'll feel less comfortable hanging around.
Posted By: Dealan-de Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/22/09 05:53 PM
Don't be there.

Also, check with the abandonment laws in your province. Since he handed you the keys when he vacated, it might be construed as abandonment - and therefore if he tries to break into "his" house, you can have him arrested.

Nothing says, "I've got boundries and I mean buisness" like a conversation with a burly cop whose pizzed his coffee's gettin' cold because he's got to talk to a numbnut who left his home for a kooze.
Ask your IMs to email him and let him know that this is NOT acceptable, to be sending messages through your children. They can email him:

Dear Mr. WH,

It has come to our attention that you are emailing your children about your plans to visit them. They would love to see you, however please have the courtesy of going through us to set these visitations up. Your wife is more than willing to work with visitations out, but using the children as messengers is not acceptable and your requests through them will not be honored.

Thank you so much!

Mr and Mrs IM
I think you should have your IM contact him and tell him that he is to arrange visitation through them because you may have previous plans with the boys. That said...since he already has the boys looking forward to seeing him and IF you decide to let him see the boys this evening, the IM should ask him what time he will be there, where is he taking them, and what time will he bring them home.
Listen to LC, she knows what she's talking about!!!!

smile smile smile
If you decide to let him see the boys tonight, leave a note on the door stating that if he'd like to see the boys they will be at IM's home at X:00 tonight. If he isn't there by X:30, you will be going out w/ the boys instead.

If he doesn't want to adhere to Plan B, then make everything MUCH harder for him.

If he had called IM, IM could have saved him a trip out to your home.
LOVE Marshmallow's idea of leaving the boys with the intermediary tonight! If WH doesn't go to the IMs, he's not welcome to see the kids until he coordinates it through the intermediary.
If he does go to the IMs, then the introductions will be made, expectations set, and it should help enforce the boundary.

Great idea!
Posted By: Lexxxy Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/22/09 06:12 PM
Agreed. Have IM contact him.

What time he is picking them up -- what time he is dropping them off. That is all.


What did you designate as your regular visitation hours?
Did you specify one evening and every-other weekend?
I say do both. Have IM contact him and say you already had plans

AND if he plays dumb put a note on the door as MM said

but definatly leave the apt either way. leave a note now and leave ASAP
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/22/09 06:20 PM
Very good ideas indeed. I do like the idea that IM would have the boys. Maybe this would give me some time to do the rest of my christmas shopping. I am still weighing my options so keep them coming.

DS9 was a little upset that he couldn't see Daddy today and that is what is killing me. I know THEY miss WH but I am trying to do what is right and he is just trying to get around what I want so he can get what HE wants. I am angry about this and I know that I shouldn't even be worrying about him at all right now.

I reassured DS9 that they will see Daddy Saturday as that was already stated in the children part of my Plan B letter. WH wants to come in here on christmas morning too. I DON'T THINK SO.

Foggy alien logic is so ILLOGICAL.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/22/09 06:24 PM
The visitation that I had set up is this.

Every Sunday from 930am-630pm (I work Sundays 10-530)
Every OTHER Saturday from 930am-630pm (I work every other Saturday as well)

Then he was to call IMs to pick a night during the week when would be convenient to him.

I would actually let him see them today if he would just call IM and ask them. I don't mind having a couple of hours notice as long as it is through IM.

He gets off of work at 530 so he could be here by 6pm. He may get off early though.
Posted By: Dealan-de Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/22/09 06:24 PM
The illogical bit is why I suggested knowing your rights about abandonment.

It is not unknown around here for a waynerd to break into a house because they feel entitled to.

Know your rights in that corner. Please.

And leave a note on the door - printed out from the computer...I'd not even give him the luxury of my handwriting at the moment...please include the IMs email addy on the note.

And go have fun! Do you have a Dollar Tree up there? I let my kids pick out stuff from there to give to each other - they had a BLAST and it didn't break my wallet.
Posted By: catperson Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/22/09 06:34 PM
Quote:
I would actually let him see them today if he would just call IM and ask them. I don't mind having a couple of hours notice as long as it is through IM.
Scotland, the important thing here is that he is trying to FUDGE your requirements. He is trying to sneak stuff in under the door, so to speak. A little bit here, a little bit there...pretty soon, your Plan B is a big pile of hooey because you never stood your ground and ENFORCED it.
Didn't you remember all of a sudden that you had a terribly important event that you and DSx2 were going to? I hear the mall Santas are practically begging for people to stand in line and have their pictures taken...
Posted By: Dealan-de Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/22/09 06:38 PM
Originally Posted By: catperson
Quote:
I would actually let him see them today if he would just call IM and ask them. I don't mind having a couple of hours notice as long as it is through IM.
Scotland, the important thing here is that he is trying to FUDGE your requirements. He is trying to sneak stuff in under the door, so to speak. A little bit here, a little bit there...pretty soon, your Plan B is a big pile of hooey because you never stood your ground and ENFORCED it.


ITA. Let the kooze be his beck and callgirl.

The key to this is him realizing you and your sons WILL have a life - with or without him.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/22/09 06:43 PM
I know that Cat that's why I don't want to cave. It feels like if I let him see them today then he will think that if he pushes harder on the Christmas thing and just tells the boys that I will let him come then too.

I want to do an excellent Plan B since I did well on Plan A. If not I should have just forgotten about Plan A altogether and said "To H3LL with it" and given up. Since that is not what I want I just wanted some suggestions as to what to do. At least I know that he is coming today so it isn't like I am just sitting here and the doorbell rings. I have time to PLAN PLAN PLAN.

I am definitely taking the kids somewhere and we will be coming home later but I dunno what else to do.

I will ask IM to email him. We don't have voicemail on our cell phones so this is the only way to get him a message.

Maybe they can simply say "Dear WH, We understand that you wrote to the children to tell them you would see them today. Unfortunately, they already have plans and will be unavailable.

They will be ready by 8 am on Saturday. Please contact us with the time you will be picking them up from and returning them to their home on Saturday, so we can pass this information on to BW.

Thank you
IM"

This Saturday is a holiday in Canada too and it is called Boxing Day. My MIL always has her Christmas dinner that day so the kids of course will be there. That is why there is a different time for them to be picked up and dropped off.
Quote:
He gets off of work at 530 so he could be here by 6pm. He may get off early though.


Take the boys out to eat at about 5:00...do some other fun things until the time you set to drop off at IM. THIS way, WH has to find something to do for an hour or two before he can pick up the boys at IM.

He needs to learn that if he had called IM to set this up he would have found out that you and the boys had other plans and wouldn't have wasted his time.

If he keeps insisting on coming into the home to visit w/ the boys then you might have to make sure that you exchange the boys away from your home until he gets it.
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/22/09 06:50 PM
If he does go through IM's at some point today, you can be merciful if you want.

However, I think in the future you should expect 24 hours notice. He shouldn't have the luxury of calling up and seeing the kids a couple hours later.

If he doesn't give proper notice, the visit doesn't happen. Period. You can't be always wondering when he's going to take the whim of trying to see them, and figuring out if you can do it this time but not that time, etc., etc...

This needs to be reasonable for you. Always think, "What would a divorce look like?" Cause there's not a judge in the world that will tell you that you need to be Johnny-on-the-spot for him.

Also, for tonight, I think leaving the boys with the IM's and having them send notice that if he wants to see the boys, they will be available between this time and this time, is an acceptable compromise. For the boys' sake, not WS.

At first you need to stick even harder to your guns. It's easier to get WS trained that way.

Oops, that might have been a DJ.
I like your idea better. smile
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/22/09 06:58 PM
Just read what you posted while I was posting.

Quote:
"Dear WH, We understand that you wrote to the children to tell them you would see them today. Unfortunately, they already have plans and will be unavailable.

They will be ready by 8 am on Saturday. Please contact us with the time you will be picking them up from and returning them to their home on Saturday, so we can pass this information on to BW.

Thank you
IM"


IMO, your IM's need to push this issue a little more, even if it's just adding, "It is not acceptable for you to send messages through the children. Visitation needs to be set up via the IM's."

As is, the message seems more like, "Well, it didn't work this time - they already had plans..." instead of "This will never work. Don't bother to try again. If you try again get ready to be disappointed again."

Of course it's the second one you want to convey, just a bit more tactfully. wink
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/22/09 06:59 PM
Well IM sent my version of an email message. I am getting ready to go out although I still have no place to go but I will figure it out. We will go visiting I think and then when it is close to bedtime we will come home.

Well, here's hoping it will work out. Maybe he will realize I mean business. Thanx all. I was having a weak moment and a "I DON"T KNOW WHAT TO DO" moment but I am passed that now. I'll catch up later tonight. Hopefully the storm will be over by then.
Quote:
As is, the message seems more like, "Well, it didn't work this time - they already had plans..." instead of "This will never work. Don't bother to try again. If you try again get ready to be disappointed again."


Excellent, Neak!!!
Posted By: Dealan-de Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/22/09 07:01 PM
>Of course it's the second one you want to convey, just a bit more tactful

Like a 2x4 wrapped in nerf with a good, thick coating of bubblewrap so it sounds really neat when used.
Another suggestion?

Add to the message that the IM's send him something to the effect of "It's not acceptable for you to use the boys and their email account as a way to deliver messages. It's not good for them. Don't do this again, or we'll have to pull the plug on their email account."

JMHO... -Chel
Originally Posted By: Wolf_not_Cougar
Another suggestion?

Add to the message that the IM's send him something to the effect of "It's not acceptable for you to use the boys and their email account as a way to deliver messages. It's not good for them. Don't do this again, or we'll have to pull the plug on their email account."

JMHO... -Chel


IMO this is too preachy and will alienate WH against the IMs. (not sayin' it's inaccurate)

The IMs need to remain Switzerland neutral.
Posted By: BCboy Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/22/09 08:40 PM
I have one question and that is have you got a custody arrangement in place? And how reliable is your H to honor that agreement. I just heard from a guy who has custody of his children he was concerned if his WW had the children on visitation and she did not return them he had little recourse to get them back. He needed to have the custody of the children determined by the court so his rights were established and he had recourse.

This may not apply to you but better safe than sorry. I know the kids want to see him but would he use them to force you to break Plan B?
I totally agree with this BCboy. If there is no custody order in place (temporary or otherwise) both parents have the right to the children. There would be nothing she could do if WH decided to keep the kids, except file a custody case and try to get an emergency hearing.
Posted By: FormerPF Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/22/09 09:15 PM
I agree with both Princess and BCBoy. You need a formal custody/visitation arrangement.

"Call IM to set a night that is convenient" is way too vague. And legally I doubt the IM's are qualified to set a visitation.

A formal agreement will help you, and it will help your boys.

I know everyone here has the best intentions, but I don't know what legal grounds you have to keep the boys from WH. I am trying to speak from a casual observer point of view here. Playing devil's advocate if you will.

WH is their legal father and as far as I have read has done nothing to harm the children. I know the affair does great harm, but from a court's perspective, no physical abuse etc...

Has he agreed to the visitation agreement you laid out in the Plan B letter? If the two of you appeared in front of a judge right now what would he be able to argue and what would you be able to argue. What would the judge say? In the eyes of the judge, does the fact that WH is in an affair mean he has no rights to see his kids? Or a better question, does he get to have no say on when he can see them? I honestly don't know.

You have shown enormous courage and have done great so far. Just make sure you have all your legal ducks in a row.

I may be concerned about this for no reason. Maybe someone else has better insight than I, or knows the legalities of the situation better, can chime in.
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/22/09 09:36 PM
The Pepster is right.

If the plug is to be pulled on the boys' email account, it just needs to be done. No warning, just done.

It's always a good idea to look into legal options, still, many many BS's have gone into Plan B with no legal visitation in place. Not to say there never have been, or never could be problems from this, however in most cases the WS and OP have this part-time parent fantasy. No matter what they might say or threaten, they don't really plan on having all of everybody's kids full-time.

Get info, but don't stress.
Scotland discussed her idea for child visitation w/ WH the day he left the home. He agreed that she was being more than fair about visitation.

What WH disagrees w/ is Scotland NOT allowing him to visit the children in her home. Apparently, he can only get OW to agree to let his children over if she is given enough "notice"...he said he might be able to have them over after Christmas.

He hates Plan B, wants nothing to do w/ the IM, and would rather badger Scotland into going back to Plan A.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/23/09 01:22 AM
Yes, I do know that WH has rights to the children. IMHO if I were to go in front of a judge today there is nothing that looks bad on me. I set out a plan that he would have visitations for the children. I am saving myself from further abuse from adultery by saying I want no contact with him. I have set up IM so he can visit with his children at any time.

I told him the day he was leaving that if he called IM and said "I want to bring the children out for ice cream tomorrow. Can you let BS know and get back to me." that would be ok as long as they didn't have previous engagements. He hasn't even attempted to call IM and they were actually HIS friends first. He is mad at me because he is sending messages through the kids and that is NOT ok with me. WH may not be able to keep all of his emotions out of statements to them.

He has sent me emails and left messages on my answering machine(until I unplugged it). I asked for NO CONTACT and he hasn't followed that at all.

I also have a problem with the fact that he wants to visit them in their home. I told him he needs to take them somewhere else not here.

I do know that he could take them on Saturday and not bring them home. I don't think he will do that but if he does I will act swiftly. I know from experience with the court system in this area what would happen.

My WH sister left her husband 4 1/2 years ago and took her daughter. She kept her from her H for 90 days. When the judge heard that all he did was ask her if the father could have her for 4 hours that day. She said "sure" and she still got full custody. My SIL was even pregnant with OM child at the time so I know how A doesn't really affect child custody at all.

My SIL's XH was told that judges are usually men in their 50's who were raised by Moms so they believe that the Mom is the best place for the children.

I have stated before that I think there are a couple of reasons that WH doesn't want to bring the kids to OW house. Our DS6 can be a handful at times. WH has little patience for his attitude and he can overreact at times. It is not TOO bad but that would break his "I AM PERFECT" facade in OW eyes.

Also, my children are 2 ACTIVE boys. They don't stop moving. OW will only be used to an 11 year old girl. She may LB WH by not liking or even getting mad at the children. These are just my thoughts.

I knew that if I caved today that WH would keep trying to get a little more. He was here and he tried to call 6 times but we were out. We just got home 1/2 an hour ago.

I asked the boys if they wanted to call Daddy and tell him GN but they said they wanted to write an email instead. I said ok and helped them write exactly what they wanted to say. NO EDITING.

I am sticking to a DARK Plan B. As far as what the IM wrote to WH, I believe it was appropriate in this sitch. I want him to contact them and I feel that if they are too hard on him right away he will say they are against him and never want to contact them and he will be able to use THAT against me.





Posted By: Tabby1 Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/23/09 01:27 AM
Scotland you are in Ontario. All you need to do is write an agreement and have it signed by a witness and it is legal!!! The courts will hold this up unless there is evidence that the children are in physical danger. Even if you wrote it on toilet paper, this would be enough. We are in do-it-yourself divorce land.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/23/09 01:35 AM
Thanx Tabby.....Good to know. I will get right one that one but not on TP that is a IMPORTANT in this house hehehehehe.

I guess I will just have to pick the evening of the week that WH will get since he hasn't picked one yet. How does Wednesday nights sound? I am going to write it out now laugh
Originally Posted By: Marshmallow
Scotland discussed her idea for child visitation w/ WH the day he left the home. He agreed that she was being more than fair about visitation.

What WH disagrees w/ is Scotland NOT allowing him to visit the children in her home. Apparently, he can only get OW to agree to let his children over if she is given enough "notice"...he said he might be able to have them over after Christmas.

He hates Plan B, wants nothing to do w/ the IM, and would rather badger Scotland into going back to Plan A.


This IS the case
He wants to eat cake when the the mood strikes him also. No discipline. He will be Mr wonderful and cater to OM and her child,(sorry Scotland, I know that hurts), and wont impose on OM with his children.

Its so hard to see a grown Man hurt someone like Scotland just so he can live in a fantasy. This is why plan B is so important for everyone.
She needs to protect whatever love is left and because she is the one who is being fair and considerate
He needs to see that thier are consequences for selfish behavior.

Even if he never came back it would still be healthier for all in the long run. Otherwise we end up catering to ppls entitlement issues instead of cherishing each other.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/23/09 03:16 AM
SO- don't worry about that hurting me about OW and her child. I already know and actually argued with him about that very fact before I found MB. I was angry but I only told him the thoughts that I knew would be true. It was probably a lot of DJ in there as well but at the time I did what I thought was right.

Now I see what I was doing and I know I will be better. I know either way that I will be ok and our children will be ok but I have to make sure I put us through the least amount of pain while we are transitioning.

I asked my sister if her XH will be coming over Christmas morning to watch their kids open presents and she laughed. EXACTLY my point to my WH. He needs a taste of what D would be like and figure out if that is what he wants.

I AM doing what is best for my kids. If WH were to visit them in their own home they would relive the day he left over and over again. They may even get their hopes up that he maybe wouldn't leave that time. I have to protect them from what I can. I CAN'T protect them from everything but I am going to do my best.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/23/09 03:19 AM
HA, just logged in to yahoo and saw this. What a laugh for me because honestly there was nothing on this that applied to me and my sitch.

1. Cell phone habits change. Turning on vibrate, increase in calls.
2. Shopping for a 'new' wardrobe. Hip younger clothes.
3. Increase in business travel.
4. Changing email passwords and creating new email accounts.
5. Heading straight into the shower when arriving home.
6. Changing an established routine at home and work for no logical reason.
7. An increase of gifts or charges on the credit card statements.
8. Credit card or bank statements are no where to be found.
9. The sex frequency has changed.
10. Change in attitude, looking for excuses to leave late at night.
Posted By: catperson Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/23/09 03:21 AM
Scotland, I knew you knew the truth; you're one of the most amazing BS's I've seen here. But it always helps to have reinforcement of your position, you know? I was just trying to reinforce your choices, so you'd feel secure in your decisions, on the one day he'd try to push you the most.
Originally Posted By: Scotland

He was here and he tried to call 6 times but we were out. We just got home 1/2 an hour ago.




You're a ROCK STAR ! dance2
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/23/09 03:58 AM
Well, I called around to my family and the first one that called back I said "Hey we are coming for a visit." they said "Ok" and we went. Then I took the kids to McDonalds and we came home.

Since the answering machine was unplugged, no messages. I talked to my sister about actually feeling better this week than I did last week and she said that of course it does because I am not spending any time checking up on him. You know what, she is right. It frees up time in my day not checking up on him. I also have more energy to focus on what is really important.

I am feeling sad sometimes still but it isn't as bad as what I was feeling before.

There are even times when I think that maybe I won't want him back, but those are few and they scare me when I have them.

Just being honest about my feelings in case there are lurkers who are feeling some things I am.

Thanx again for your support everyone. Without you I wouldn't have made it.

I also would like to thank the people with whose opinions I may not agree with. Both sides need to be presented and I need the practice in not using LBs like AO, and DJ.
Posted By: catperson Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/23/09 04:15 AM
Quote:
There are even times when I think that maybe I won't want him back, but those are few and they scare me when I have them.
The first thing I think of is, you are teaching your children NOT to accept pain and suffering when you shouldn't have to. You are teaching them a good lesson by being proactive.
Originally Posted By: catperson
The first thing I think of is, you are teaching your children NOT to accept pain and suffering when you shouldn't have to. You are teaching them a good lesson by being proactive.


This is such an important lesson.

I also love the fact that Scotland gave her sons permission not to be nice to OW.

You're a great mom, Scotland! You really have your head on straight!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/23/09 04:32 AM
This has gotten to be a really long thread so I thought for some new watchers of my thread I will post some details about my sitch.

On September 20, 2009 (My 12th anniversary) my WH had a "TALK" with me where he gave me the ILYBNILWY speech. He then told me he had thought about leaving me. I reacted calmly(inside I was DYING) and just talked to my WH. He said that there was noone else and that even though he was going to leave me it didn't mean it was over. He informed me 2 weeks later that he would be moving in with his "friend(OW)" from work and stay in her extra bedroom.

When he was living there he wouldn't even think about dating. He wouldn't date ANYONE else until he knew for sure there was no chance for us.

Then this was HIS plan.

He would move out some time in February(no exact date). He would continue to put the pay cheques in the bank and only take out what was needed for basic living. He would come here when I had to work and watch our children for me while I took our truck and drove to work. When I came home from work, he would go home. This would have him coming to my house 3-4 times a week and staying in my house while I was at work. (Oh don't worry you'll LOVE this part.) As far as what I would do about grocery shopping. He would take me. Yep that's right. We would all go to the grocery store like a big happy family and shop together.

Now, what have I changed? I asked for NC. I want him to take the kids somewhere else and not come into my house. I asked him to leave a month and a half earlier than he intended. And Groceries, I will be getting them myself.
Posted By: Tabby1 Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/23/09 01:11 PM
Scotland, here is a "fill in the blank" separation agreement you can use as a guide. You can add or take out anything you want.
http://www.candivorce.ca/download/separation.doc
Scotland, do you only have one car? What are you doing about that?
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/23/09 04:51 PM
We do only have one car. He has taken it because he works in one city 20 minutes away from here and lives in another city 30 minutes away from here. I work in this city and the kids go to school a block away. We don't mind taking the bus(actually the kids LOVE it) and we can walk to most of my family's houses. All of their friends live close. The only thing is the IMs. They live closer to WH than me. But I do have a lot of people who are willing to drive us around places. We have always made due.

The truck is in WH name and we have 4 more years of payments (which he has agreed to make, and since the loan is in his name only that was fine with me).

It sucks not having a car but whenever WH was at work, we didn't have a car anyways. It makes it a little more difficult but I have a lot of support in that matter.
Quote:
If WH were to visit them in their own home they would relive the day he left over and over again.


Yep very wise
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/23/09 06:04 PM
Well, I am having a sad-ish day today. The kids are holding up well, I believe that is a testament to my efforts. DS9 did say it was like Daddy is on a vacation though and that makes me think he hasn't accepted it yet, but it is still new.

DS6 said to me "Mommy, I know what your wish is for Christmas. You wish Daddy would come home." I said "yes buddy I do." then he said "Me too." Breaks my heart.

I will be okay but I think it is just the withdrawals form WH not being here and the fact that Christmas is on FRIDAY. Well, I will keep on trucking and get through this just like everything else.

Tonight the kids will be sleeping over at my sister's house and i will come home to an empty house. That is what I think is bringing me so down today. I am sure it will be fine but the anticipation is so much more difficult.
Scotland,

I so admire you, you are a rock star! I know it must be hard, but hang in there. You're sons are very lucky they have you as a mom, when they are older they will look back and look up to you and how you have handled everything.

You are definitely having a life well lived, not just living life.

Have a happy and joyous holiday season.

Best,

BA
Posted By: optimism Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/23/09 11:32 PM
Quote:
Tonight the kids will be sleeping over at my sister's house and i will come home to an empty house. That is what I think is bringing me so down today. I am sure it will be fine but the anticipation is so much more difficult.


Bath-time Scotland!!
Don't forget the bubble, candles, and scents and a good book. And a space heater. You deserve it.
Feed your taker and take advantage of the peace and quite.
opt
Posted By: catperson Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/24/09 12:51 AM
Quote:
And a space heater.
lol, I just turned our air conditioner on. (I'm in Houston)
Posted By: Tabby1 Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/24/09 01:25 AM
Originally Posted By: catperson
Quote:
And a space heater.
lol, I just turned our air conditioner on. (I'm in Houston)


Is it ok if I hate you for this? I'm in Canada!
Posted By: optimism Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/24/09 03:42 AM
Quote:
Is it ok if I hate you for this? I'm in Canada!


Sure, if it makes you feel better, tabby, lol.

But you have to promise to stop sending that arctic cold blast down here to Massachusetts. cool

opt
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/24/09 08:50 AM
unfortunately no bath time for me. I was at work and it was CRAZY. I just got home and it is 330am. WH talked to kids tonight while they were at my sister's. They actually talked to him for 15 minutes which is better than they have yet.

I miss them a lot already but I am taking advantage of them not being here so I can wrap and hide the presents. I think I spent 40 dollars just on chocolates. DS6 asked Santa for 1 million chocolates. I didn't buy him nearly a million but probably close to 1000 of those stupid little balls. It is better than what he originally wanted, he wanted Santa to make all of his dolls and stuffed animals to come to life.

The kids are awesome and they keep me smiling. I borrowed a book from my friend on creating a great family. Even if WH doesn't come home I want us to be the best family ever(by US I mean the kids and I).

I am bracing for Xmas day and WH knocking on the door. If it is anything like the rest of the stuff I have braced for it should go fine. I am NOT leaving my house that day just to avoid him. If he knows that we are home I don't care. He made his choice when he walked out the door(he actually made the choice the day he started sleeping with OW but that's another thing). WH decided to give up his family moments.

Sorry just had to vent a bit. I am securely in the ANGER stage of grief I think hehehehe.
Posted By: Tabby1 Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/24/09 01:30 PM
Originally Posted By: optimism
Quote:
Is it ok if I hate you for this? I'm in Canada!


Sure, if it makes you feel better, tabby, lol.

But you have to promise to stop sending that arctic cold blast down here to Massachusetts. cool

opt

I'll do what I can, but my part of Canada generally ships this stuff directly to Buffalo. Perhaps they are passing on their leftovers to you.
Posted By: Tabby1 Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/24/09 01:32 PM
Hang in there Scotland. Christmas will be fine. Your kids will love the chocolates (who doesn't?). Is anybody else coming that day?
Posted By: catperson Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/24/09 01:36 PM
Scotland, have you prepared your kids for the possibility of him knocking on the door? I can't imagine a worse scenario than him pounding on the door, and them crying and begging you to let him in.

I really hope you will warn them of WHY you will not be able to do so. Tell them that it is a PLAN to get him back permanently, so you know it will be a little painful tomorrow, but you are counting on them to help YOU help HIM.
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/24/09 01:51 PM
A plan to ~try~ and get him back permanently.
Originally Posted By: Scotland

I am bracing for Xmas day and WH knocking on the door. If it is anything like the rest of the stuff I have braced for it should go fine. I am NOT leaving my house that day just to avoid him. If he knows that we are home I don't care. He made his choice when he walked out the door(he actually made the choice the day he started sleeping with OW but that's another thing). WH decided to give up his family moments.


Scotland, do you have a plan in case this does happen? I would be prepared for this eventuality and make sure he doesn't come in. If he is allowed to come in, it will undermind your resolve to stay dark. He should not be allowed in no matter what. If he knocks on the door, one suggestion would be to answer and ask him to leave. If he insists on seeing the boys, lock the door behind you, put their coats on them and send them out to visit in his car.

But whatever you do, don't allow him in the house on Christmas. One of the most impactful lessons of Plan B is treating the WS to the reality of single life. Your H has chosen to be single and leave his family for his OW. It is in the best interest of all of you for him to experience exactly what that will be like by spending his Christmas without his family. That experience will influence him to end his affair.
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
If he knocks on the door, one suggestion would be to answer and ask him to leave.

I'd go one step further: I would simply take the boys and move to a part of the house, if possible, where his knocking can't be heard, and where if he tries to peer into the house, you can't be seen. After a while he should give up and go away.

Go with God, but go.

Dark is DARK.

I'm sorry you have to be in this situation. Christmas is one of the most stressful times of the year even for "normal" people.
I like the idea of sending them to the car.

Did I miss it and did you tell us about what was planned with H about Xmas morn?

If you can get someone supportive to stay over at the house it would be nice too. Maybe Dad?

Its important that WH realizes he has chosen to throw away this special moment and its important to your Children to see you set healthy boundaries for relationships. I know you know this you rock star. just being supportive.

Its going to be very hard to shut him out because of the effect on the boys, If you can let him take them for awhile without you being around I would think that was wise. If the boys ask why you wont be there with them you can say that it is between you and Daddy, to not worry and that you still love him, and that they will have to trust you. They will need to trust you. You are very worthy of that trust BTW.

Have a great Christmas Scotty and may the light shine on you and yours.
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/24/09 03:15 PM
When they ask why you won't be there, "It hurts me too much to be around Daddy while he has a girlfriend. Married people should never have girlfriends or boyfriends."

That's your stock answer, your one-note violin. wink
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/24/09 04:10 PM
Okay. I told the kids that Daddy may show up on Christmas morning. I told them that Daddy can't come in the house anymore because he doesn't live HERE. They know that I am doing my best to TRY to get Daddy to come home and that there is a possibility that he won't ever.

I never really thought of what to do on Christmas because WH never seemed to care about Christmas. I know since we have had our children, there were many times that he went to work for the morning. We usually go to my Mom's house on Christmas Day and then go to MIL house on Boxing Day.

I guess if he stays outside for a while I COULD let him see the kids, but I don't know yet. I wasn't even going to acknowledge that he was there except that I know that it will hurt DSx2. I will do some thinking. Maybe I will let him see them for a bit but definitely NOT in my house.

I don't know about talking to him because I think I might cave if I were to do that. I am sure that he will call the house while he is outside(that has been what he has done twice this week). I wasn't going to let the kids talk to him while he was outside, I was going to let him talk to them after he left. Thoughts?

And as far as what I am telling the kids about WH and I and what WH is doing, I have it all covered. laugh
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/24/09 04:14 PM
Yup, that was good.

Now, DO NOT LET HIM IN!!!!!!!!! I know you already know this, but I want to make really sure.

If he's outside and calls, take the following steps:

1. Send the boys to a secluded room to watch TV.
2. Turn off all cell phones.
3. Walk over to the house phone.
4. Unplug the phone from the wall jack.
5. Lay the cord gently next to the unplugged cord from the answering machine.
6. Go watch TV with the boys.
Originally Posted By: Scotland

I don't know about talking to him because I think I might cave if I were to do that. I am sure that he will call the house while he is outside(that has been what he has done twice this week). I wasn't going to let the kids talk to him while he was outside, I was going to let him talk to them after he left. Thoughts?


That sounds like the best plan, Scotland!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/24/09 04:18 PM
SORRY TO SCARE YOU NEAK.

I was talking to my Dad on the phone while typing and then when I re-read what I wrote I was like NO I AM NOT LETTING HIM IN. Oops, I changed that now though.
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/24/09 04:32 PM
LOL!!! PWTS - Posting While Talking Syndrome.
Originally Posted By: Scotland
Okay. I told the kids that Daddy may show up on Christmas morning. I told them that Daddy can't come in the house anymore because he doesn't live HERE. They know that I am doing my best to TRY to get Daddy to come home and that there is a possibility that he won't ever.
.... And as far as what I am telling the kids about WH and I and what WH is doing, I have it all covered. laugh


Yay
Posted By: not2fun Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/24/09 06:10 PM
((((Scotty))))),

You are doing beautiful sweetie.....Keep it up...

I know that whatever tomorrow brings, you will handle it as beautifully as everything else....

Here's some Christmas Cheer my mine to yours.....

MerryChristmas


Make sure you write down your plan of attack for tomorrow so it is embedded into you if/when WH comes over....

not2fun

Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/24/09 06:25 PM
I honestly never thought that WH would even care about seeing the kids on Christmas day. I believe I have 2 options. Option one: I ignore WH when he is at the door and just carry on like he didn't exist. Stay VERY VERY DARK. (pro: this shows WH that he has to do things my way for a change. I keep all of my strength and pride and integrity. con: it hurts the kids).

Option two: I email WH telling him this "WH, I never realized you would want to see the boys on Christmas Day. They will be available for you to pick them up at 2pm and you can return them home by 9pm. "

What do you think?
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/24/09 06:56 PM
Quote:
Option two: THE INTERMEDIARIES email WH telling him this "WH, your wife never realized you would want to see the boys on Christmas Day. They will be available for you to pick them up at 2pm and you can return them home by 9pm. "


With the change to contact coming from the IM's, either option is a good one, IMO.

The main point here is not whether he sees the boys or not - it's that you don't see him or talk to him, and are in charge of what happens.

You making the offer to let him see them from 2-9 keeps you in control of what happens, and makes sure things stay on your terms.

Document everything.
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/24/09 07:00 PM
He may never agree to use the IM's, and that's ok.

My first time as an IM, the WS absolutely refused to use the IM's, start to finish. He was angry and rude to us a couple times first, then proceeded to email his BW every single time.

The BW had a fancier email than I do, and was able to forward all his emails automatically to her team of IM's, plus have them deleted out of her mailbox at the same time.

Thus evolved a limpy, triangular sort of system. WS - - - > BW - - - > IM's automatically - - - > response to WS.

It wasn't ideal, but it worked. Functionality is the test of success. You may need to wind up doing something similar if he refuses to use your IM's.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/24/09 07:19 PM
Thanx Neak that does sound better than me writing him. Funny I didn't even think of that one. The reason I was torn was because I really didn't want to break NC with him. I think I will get in contact with IM now and get them to write to him. I don't expect any response from him but this way I cover my butt. He can't say that I didn't allow him to see the kids. I don't see any judge making me let him in my house after he has moved out.

Frustrating sometimes. These Aliens need to get off of this planet already ahhhhhhhh
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/24/09 07:26 PM
Wow, that was lucky. IMs were on their way out the door to go away for Xmas. They won't be back until Saturday Night. I asked them to email him with the info about tomorrow. That really does feel like the right thing to do for me. I know the kids will love to see him and I hope that he doesn't TRY to come in. I will lock the door behind the kids and hopefully he will get the point. This would be a better option for me than him banging on the door. That would have killed me and the kids.

Thanx and MERRY CHRISTMAS. I will be at my Mom's tonight and then I will be with the kids tomorrow. I will probably log on after the kids go to sleep tomorrow because I feel good being on here. I keep reading threads and other articles and learn new things every time.
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/24/09 07:28 PM
That's why you have all of us. laugh

Here are your 2 all-purpose rules for breaks in NC.

1. You shouldn't break NC yourself unless the Emergency Room is involved.

2. If a breach of NC happens for any reason whatsoever, handle it with near-Plan A behavior. Be charming and polite, smile and say hi, and get away from WS as fast as possible. (If, by some quirk of fate, the OW is there, pretend you don't even see her. She is nothing to you, and looking right past her is the most scathing thing you could ever do.)
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/24/09 07:31 PM
You may want to think about having a backup IM for the few occasions when your regular IM's are unable to contact WH for you. I don't think anyone would even need to let WH know you had done this unless you had to actually use your backup.

Be watchful and don't get caught off guard. Your best defense against having him try to get into the house is to have the boys walking out the door as he pulls up.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/24/09 07:38 PM
Well we have an enclosed porch. There are two doors. The one to the porch and the one to the house. I am going to instruct the kids to go on the porch, I will lock the house door and then they can unlock the porch door. I just have to figure out what to do to get them back in without him following them. That I have almost 24 hours to figure out though.
When you see him pull in w/ the boys, you can go to the porch to unlock it for the boys. If WH starts to follow them, you can tell your boys to say goodbye to their daddy, and then hold the door open for them. Quickly closing it after them.

Stand to the side so he can't see you...or see you well. Don't look at him.
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/24/09 09:54 PM
Maybe a friend or family member could be there for the drop-off. Or even hire a sitter.

Finding a way to be gone for drop-offs that you suspect are likely to become sticky is one of the most effective ways of short-circuiting all those scrambled little alien ideas without any Lovebusters.
That's an even better idea, Neak.

Scotland,

W/ regards to WH not using IM, you could set up a new e-mail account maybe use part of your name or the boy's names in it, and give it to WH to use, and then give it and the password to IM, that way they can screen his e-mails for you and he doesn't have to know they are.

You could tell IM to send him an e-mail saying that you have closed your old account and have opened a new one.

WH may figure out what you are doing, but it's worth a shot.

I dunno. If he doesn't know the IMs are reading the emails, he think Scotland has caved. I have a fundamental dislike of somebody thinking they've got the better of me when I know they have not! Personally, I would have to have him use the IMs and not try to bypass my Plan B terms, in order for it to be acceptable to me. But it's possible I could just be acting unreasonably stubborn, too. Certainly my husband, The Clam, often thinks I am! rotflmao

tl
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/25/09 03:16 AM
Well, I may be a little stubborn too because I think that he would think I am caving if I chose that option. I know I have caved in many aspects of our relationship since the kids were born. I think that is part of what he fell out of love with me (dunno what need that meets hahahaha). I used to be one of those teenagers who walked around saying "Yea I am a B and I don't care who knows it." Then I had kids and became a MOMMY.

Not that Mommy's can't be B's but I had to be soft and I knew that. I also know that I like to make people laugh by poking fun and teasing people. I only do it to people I like (tend to ignore people I don't like hehehehe). I used to do it to WH all of the time but we really stopped going out together. I wasn't going to put him down in front of our children. They might not have known I was joking. I know that OW does the same kind of joking with him. WH used to tell me about it. When I told him that I couldn't do that to him anymore he said "yea it hurts when it comes from someone you are supposed to love."

DS9 talked to WH tonight and WH said he would see him on Saturday. Maybe he finally got this Plan B thing. Now I have to use the exchanging of the kids thing on Saturday instead.

I am still bracing in case he comes tomorrow.

DS6 is now REFUSING to talk to WH on the phone. He said, "I am not talking to Daddy because I am mad at him for leaving us." I dunno what to do about that one. I am not going to MAKE him talk to him. I just hope he will actually go with him on Saturday.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/25/09 05:03 PM
MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALLLLLLLLLLL.

Well, this morning went off without a hitch. WH didn't come to the house and knock on the door. DS9 talked to him this morning and WH said he would be here at 2 to pick them up. IM message obviously did the trick. I guess he even tried to call IM but they had already left. A step in the positive direction for sure. Hopefully he won't try to come in today though. This is the first time he will be seeing the kids since he left last week.
DS6 still refuses to talk to WH on the phone but he has said that he will go with him today. That's good cuz I don't know what I would do if he didn't want to.

There is a funny/sad part of this story though. DS9 was talking to Wh and he looked at me and said "Mommy, Daddy wants to know if we can give him some groceries because he doesn't have very many." I just looked at DS9 and said "Just talk to Daddy." He told WH what I said. No other response. Then when they got off of the phone DS9 said that WH asks him to do him favours. I told him that wasn't right and what kind of favours? He said he couldn't remember. Gotta make sure I watch that.

As far as the food goes, I say "NOPE". I mean what does he think this is the food bank? It is money from both of us, but I am the one who got it from the store. He is a big person and he is the one with a car, he can go himself. I know that the stores are closed today but they weren't yesterday and they will reopen tomorrow.

I almost entertained the thought of sending food for the kids to make sure they would be fed but NOPE. He lost that right when he left me. I was always the one to make sure when we went anywhere that I had juice boxes and snacks for the kids, now he can do that when they are with him. If we went the D way, I sure as h3ll wouldn't be doing it for him then. 711 is always open and thee are always Chinese restaurants. He could bring them home early and I would feed them dinner.

Anyways, MERRY CHRISTMAS.
Posted By: catperson Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/25/09 05:15 PM
Good for you!
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/25/09 05:26 PM
hurray Ya done good. The boys won't starve, even if he hasn't fed them by the time he brings them back at 9.

MerryChristmas
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/25/09 05:39 PM
I know they won't and even funnier is that WH will definitely hear about it hehehehehe. DS6 goes CRAZY when he is hungry hahahaha.

I am playing Super Mario for Wii. I forgot how much fun this game was hahahahaha. It's like being a kid all over again laugh

Loving this moment right now. laugh
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/25/09 07:20 PM
Well, I got through it. Lots of tears after the door closed. Now I see why NC with WH. I just saw a shadow and heard his voice and I started just crying. I was whispering "I love you." to him. He couldn't hear me but I needed to say it. I know that is sappy but it was a long time that I said it and I will always mean it no matter what. There will always be a part of me that loves him whichever way this turns out.

Now what to do? It is Christmas and everyone else is busy. Dishes are done, laundry is getting done. I think I will read a book, and maybe take a nap.

I have to try not to think about the fact that WH is taking them to OW house right now. I think he may have wanted them to sleep over cuz he told DS6 that he could bring his "Baby"(a pillow) and "Winnie"(his Cabbage patch kid). DS6 said no he wanted to bring his DS. Well, at least I know they will be coming home because DS6 would NEVER sleep without those two things.

One more hurdle was crossed today and like I said it was easier than I was expecting. WH will have them again tomorrow and again Sunday. I am glad for the kids that they got to see WH.

Have a very Merry Christmas everyone.
Posted By: BCboy Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/25/09 08:02 PM
Scotland
I read your post and felt a pang go through my heart for your situation. What you describe is the part of the collateral damage I have grown to hate about the impacts of infidelity. There is significant emotional turmoil and pain that goes on for years because of the selfish actions of someone you pledged to love forever.

Events like Christmas are especially difficult because it highlights the expectation of celebrations involving the intact "happy" family. I am really beginning to wonder how many of those still exist anymore.

It is at times like this when I find the comfort of prayer and listening to hymns a great comfort. One of the things that the separation with my wife caused me to do was explore the spiritual aspect of my life, and that has been a great comfort for me. I will say a prayer for you Scotland, and bless you for continuing to seek the best for your young family.

Blessings
BCBoy
Christmas day is drawing to a close here. I wish you a peaceful rest of the day.

hugs

ST
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/26/09 12:36 AM
Thank you. It is 730pm and the children have been dropped off without incident. WH didn't even try to come in and when I opened the door I stood behind it so he wouldn't see me. They met OW and that I knew was going to upset me. I always knew they would meet her but the first day had to be Christmas? That is a day for families and now mine got torn apart and OW had them for Christmas evening. I know this is Plan B. Time for ME and all of that but it was a rough day. Well, the day will be over soon enough and I will wake up tomorrow and DO IT AGAIN. AHHHHHHHH. I am sure the more I do it the easier it will be but I hate thinking about it like that. What I want to do is feel the feelings and EVENTUALLY move on from them.
Posted By: Vittoria Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/26/09 12:45 AM
hug
I can't even imagine my kids having met OW.
Your WH will regret that some day, exposing his baby boys to that piece of crap.
hug

So ..... what's on for tomorrow, boxing day specials anyone ????
Originally Posted By: Scotland
They met OW and that I knew was going to upset me. I always knew they would meet her but the first day had to be Christmas? That is a day for families and now mine got torn apart and OW had them for Christmas evening. I know this is Plan B.


Scotland, I would put a stop to that REAL QUICK. Your kids should not be dragged into his sleazy affair unless it is with a court order and a sheriff with a BIG GUN. That is outrageous that he would do this to his own kids. Most waywards will try to quickly introduce the kids in an effort to normalize their filthy affair and give it a false air of respectibility. I would let him know that his visitation will be ENDED REAL QUICK unless he keeps these kids away from his filthy adultery partner. [have your IM's tell him this] As long as you have custody of the kids, you can set the parameters of what they are exposed to until he gets a court order saying otherwise.

Additionally, I would set the kids down and make sure they understand that their dad has done a terrible, despicable thing by having an affair and introducing them to the enemy of their family.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/26/09 01:02 AM
Well, the kids have to go to MIL house for Christmas stuff. I was thinking about picking up an extra shift at work to watch all of the CRAZY shoppers.

I was in a sad place while the kids were gone. I started thinking about some stuff(that tends to happen when I am alone). I was thinking about if WH and OW would last. I mean it IS possible but highly unlikely. OW has never dated anyone longer than 2 years(she is PROUD of that BTW). WH WAS a good guy but to have an A you have to go away from being a good guy and change into someone else. WH took 16 years before he started lying to me and he started to lie to OW from the beginning.

Okay I know they CAN stay together and be happy but I was trying to make myself feel better and it worked. laugh
Posted By: Vittoria Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/26/09 01:03 AM
While I agree with you Mel 150%, I don't know if that can be done here.
Originally Posted By: Vittoria
While I agree with you Mel 150%, I don't know if that can be done here.


Why not?
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/26/09 01:12 AM
Well ML I would love to try to stop them from seeing her but I don't think that is really possible right now. WH lives with OW and he has nowhere else to take them. I either let him come in here or go to her house.

I don't actually have custody yet. I am writing up a custody agreement and I have to get to IM and get WH to sign it. I don't think that I can legally keep them away from her anyways. I have told the kids that what Daddy is doing is VERY wrong and that OW is the reason he left. I made sure I reminded them before they left that they DO NOT have to edit anything they say to OW or WH.

This is all that I CAN do. I know WH didn't want to introduce them just yet. He would actually probably say that I forced him (blah blah blah) in to it since I wouldn't let him visit with them here. He hadn't introduce them and they had started an EA more than 2 years ago and I believe a PA for at least 1 year.

We shall see what happens.
Posted By: Vittoria Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/26/09 01:18 AM
Our court system, from what I've heard from others in adulterous situations, treats both parties of separation/divorce the same, regardless of one person having an A.

Like I said, I don't know, I was never in this position.
It is for sure worth looking into with a lawyer.
I'm pretty sure it was suggested somewhere in this thread, it might actually have been you that posted that.

You guys have no fault and fault states, which is great.
In a no fault state, can that stipulation be made in a separation agreement??
Originally Posted By: Scotland
Well ML I would love to try to stop them from seeing her but I don't think that is really possible right now. WH lives with OW and he has nowhere else to take them. I either let him come in here or go to her house.


Scotland, you can tell him he is not to take the kids around the OW no matter what. He can take them to the park, a restaurant, or whereever. He can figure that out. But I would make him get a court order if he wants to take your children in situations that are unfit for little children. Otherwise, he shouldn't be allowed to see them. He should not be allowed to corrupt them without putting up a fight.

Many parents here in Plan B have made this stipulation. Your Plan B is likely to outlast his affair, anyway. I wouldn't make this easy on him at your childrens expense. IF he wants to abandon his family for an affair, then he should be forced to go to the trouble of finding a decent place for their visitation.

Putting your foot down about this sends a strong message to him and the OW that their relationship is UNFIT for children. And it is. He needs to keep his kids away from his affair. Allowing this exposure sends the message of endorsment. If your kids see you put your foot down they will know you are serious about the inappropriateness of their dad's adultery.

Many folks here have prevented their kids from contact with the OP and even had this stipulated in their court papers. If he is going to corrupt your children, i would make him have to FIGHT for the opportunity.
Originally Posted By: Vittoria
Our court system, from what I've heard from others in adulterous situations, treats both parties of separation/divorce the same, regardless of one person having an A.


oh ok, I was not aware there was a court order that he could expose the children to his affair. This has been to court?
Posted By: Vittoria Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/26/09 01:29 AM
I strongly agree with Melodylane.
I would find out if you can do this legally, if you can that's great, if you can't then I'd go with a verbal stipulation via the IM's.
Your kids can be fully aware that you do not condone WH exposing them to OW, for the stated facts that it is cruel and abusive.

You maybe can't force WH to follow your stipulation, but he and your kids will know that you strongly disapprove of this.
Make it as difficult as possible.

It makes me sick that your boys are exposed to POSOW.
If there is no court order, I would be tellng him that if she wants to continue to see the kids, he will have to protect them from his affair and not take them around his fellow adulterer. EVER. That is an indecent situation for kids. He can ride around, take them to the movies, or maybe visit them at your MIL.

But please don't let him corrupt your kids without a fight, Scotland. His affair is too indecent and will very likely not last beyond any potential legal proceedings. Disallowing him to take the kids around this skank will make his affair very inconvenient and it will send a strong message to everyone concerned that this situation is unfit for kids.
Posted By: Vittoria Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/26/09 01:33 AM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: Vittoria
Our court system, from what I've heard from others in adulterous situations, treats both parties of separation/divorce the same, regardless of one person having an A.


oh ok, I was not aware there was a court order that he could expose the children to his affair. This has been to court?

no,no,no ...... omg I don't know if we are that backwards here, I'm saying that I've not ever heard that a BS is able to make that stipulation in legal agreements.
Our courts do not recognize adultery as grounds for anything, as far as I know.
I think Scotland just answered some of your questions in her last post.

We really need a Canadian lawyer around here!
Originally Posted By: Vittoria
I would find out if you can do this legally, if you can that's great, if you can't then I'd go with a verbal stipulation via the IM's.


It is not illegal to prevent your kids from being introduced to corrupt situations. The ONUS should be on him to get legal relief, NOT HER. All she has to do is say that she won't let the kids go with him if they are going to be introduced to his filthy affair. And in order to let them go, he has to assure her of this.

Otherwise, he can have supervised visitation at her mothers. [or other relative] If he doesn't like it, he can get a court order. Most WSs wouldn't DARE pull such a sleazy stunt in Plan B. BS' do this all the time here. This is usually stipulated in the Plan B letter, but it can be communicated via the IM.
In other words, until there IS a legal separation in place, SCOTLAND is the law of the land. And will be so until her H has a court order and a SHERIFF to execute such order.
Posted By: Vittoria Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/26/09 01:42 AM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Otherwise, he can have supervised visitation at her mothers. [or other relative] If he doesn't like it, he can get a court order. Most WSs wouldn't DARE pull such a sleazy stunt in Plan B. BS' do this all the time here.

okay, I see what you are saying ..... let WH get a court order to see his kids if the BS won't allow visitation if the WS won't guarantee the children's safety ie. NC with OP.
That makes perfect sense and a good route to go.
I would be asking the IMs to send him this:

The kids have told Scotland that they have been introduced to your adultery partner, which is inappropriate for kids. She has has asked me to tell you that the kids are not to be in the OW's home or in her presence under any circumstances. In order to continue visitations, she would need your assurance that they won't be in the OW's home or exposed to her in any way.

She wants you to have as much contact as possible with the boys, but not if it means they are exposed to your affair.
Vittoria, it is often a huge wake up call to the WS to realize that their "relationship" is unfit for children. They will USE children to try and give their affair a false air of respectibility. But when kids are not allowed to be dragged into their affair, the reality of the sleaziness of their affair takes some of the gloss off the shiny pig pen.
Posted By: Vittoria Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/26/09 02:08 AM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Vittoria, it is often a huge wake up call to the WS to realize that their "relationship" is unfit for children. They will USE children to try and give their affair a false air of respectibility. But when kids are not allowed to be dragged into their affair, the reality of the sleaziness of their affair takes some of the gloss off the shiny pig pen.

ITA, the part that I couldn't get was how to enforce this if not legally.
I do now, thanks.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/26/09 02:09 AM
Okay I will try to do what you are suggesting as soon as I get him to sign my child custody agreement. After that WH will not be able to take the kids away from me. Right now, he could actually take the kids for a visit and not bring them back. If I tried to tell him he couldn't visit with the children until he finds somewhere else to take them he may retaliate with keeping them until I get a court order. It may be a week before I can get this figured out with all of the holidays and stuff.

I am definitely going to talk to a lawyer and do some more research. I know I need to get the custody agreement signed FIRST and then I will have the right to have them with me and WH will have no recourse.

Thank you for your recommendations. It truly did hurt me to have them be with OW and she even sent home some cake. That went in the GARBAGE. Good thing the garbage goes out tomorrow, I can't get it out of my house fast enough.
Posted By: Vittoria Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/26/09 02:11 AM
Scotland, what's your feeling on WH signing a custody order??
What is your recourse if he won't sign such an agreement?
Scotland, most waywards will comply because they know deep down what they are doing is wrong. They know it is bad for the kids. What he is doing is outrageous and I would put a stop to it ASAP.
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Scotland, most waywards will comply because they know deep down what they are doing is wrong. They know it is bad for the kids. What he is doing is outrageous and I would put a stop to it ASAP.


This is true Scotland. I got my WH (now X) to sign a separation agreement that says ds was not to be exposed to ANY woman of a romantic nature while we were still married and our divorce agreement says he can't have over night guests while ds is with him. I probably could not have got a judge to order that, but as Melody says most won't dare challenge such a basic requirement of decent parental behavior.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/26/09 02:21 AM
I am writing the custody agreement exactly as we had discussed the night I went into Plan B. He told me then that it was fair and it is. I am relatively sure he will sign it.

As long as he does sign it then I would have legal recourse if he was to try to keep the kids when he is supposed to return them. He even wrote them an email saying that he would bring them there for a sleepover after christmas.
Originally Posted By: Scotland
He even wrote them an email saying that he would bring them there for a sleepover after christmas.


faint OMG, my father corrupted me in the same way when I was little but he would have never DARED take me for an overnight with one his mistresses. He actually took me to his hotel room to meet his OW when I was FOUR and that was bad enough. But, I did go to counseling for YEARS and was able to overcome being so screwed up by the moral confusion.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/26/09 02:33 AM
WH had a childhood where his parents cheated and actually brought those people in to their house. He always said he wouldn't have an A because of how much he suffered as a child. Guess he didn't stick to that one. That's why I am telling my boys everything about the affair and how wrong it is. My Dad was abusive and I broke the cycle and I hope to teach my children to break the cycle of adultery that has been passed down for generations.
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Scotland, most waywards will comply because they know deep down what they are doing is wrong. They know it is bad for the kids. What he is doing is outrageous and I would put a stop to it ASAP.


I agree with Mel and the other posters here that you still have the authority to decide what is right for the boys.

Its so common that OW will listen to the WH spin the tales of what a good Family man he was and so on and want to have that with the Man they steal from their families. Part of the desparate fantasy crap they both buy into. They don't even think of what the children go through, its all about the fantasy.

WH had a wholesome home where he could be with his children and chose to leave. If he could see that he has run off to join the circus in his mind then maybe he would not try to raise his children with the yak lady and feed them carnival food. (No offense to any Yaklady who has a wholesome marriage BTW)

Poor Scotland, You do so well, and another boundary needs to be set that causes you pain and frustration. Thank God and I mean God for these people here that are like angels. They come here everyday tirelessly for years defending Love. They are so on the money with the advice and support.

As I read here a line in a song by Pete Townsend keeps coming to mind. One of my favorite songs BTW. "You better you bet"

"When I say 'I love you' you SCREAM you better, you better you bet.
You better bet your life,.. or it will cut you...cut you like a knife..."
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/26/09 03:47 AM
Sorting- I so agree with you about thanking God and the universe for MB and the people here. If it weren't for all of you I would be living in my own personal H3ll with NO CHANCE to save my M. As it is now I have a slight chance but slight is better than none. I just want to get the custody agreement signed and then I can play hardball with no worries. My IM will be home on Saturday night, I will contact them and get them to ask him to come to their house to sign the paperwork. Then after that they can write him the email about not letting OW near them. I will have to endure it until then. He is picking them up tomorrow and Sunday.

Thank you so much all for your support and advice. I sometimes need a good kick in the pants. My sister told me that I shouldn't try to do this because it will just cost me money. Well, guess what WH has no money either.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/26/09 03:57 AM
I just thought of something funny that you said that is kind of on point. DS9 told me that they ate NACHOS for dinner. They had chocolate cake and slurpees and played video games all night. Would that quantify as carnival food the yak lady would serve? Disney-dad on a budget anyone? I have to laugh to keep from crying.

My WH really was a good dad until he started his A. He had a great relationship with them and now POOF he threw it all away for HIS "happiness". Well, maybe he will realize it is not so Happy like this. AHHHHHHHHH frustrating wayturds.
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/26/09 04:00 AM
ITA with Mel, and I'm glad you're digging the trenches for a stand on this.

The overall legal results are important, yes, but far more crucial is your fight to keep them away from OW. Your fight shows with actions that you don't accept what their dad is trying to do to them.

That is priceless.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/26/09 04:02 AM
I know Neak. I just mean I want to make sure he can't keep them from ME and their home. I don't trust him to do what is best for them. I need to get the agreement signed and then I will take this advice whole-heartedly. If he doesn't sign the agreement then I will do it anyways and brace for impact.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/26/09 05:12 AM
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH why is it that it seems that everything on tv tonight has something to do with affairs or D? I was watching Seinfeld and it was the one where George sleeps with a MW. Then I watch Till Death and it is the one where his parents are gonna get a D. Now I watch Friends and it is the one where Chandler is in Tulsa and the girl hits on him. There was also Numbers where a cop tells of the affair she had with her M partner. There were a few other ones that I didn't even watch because I realized there were triggers right away. NOT FUN.
Posted By: Vittoria Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/26/09 05:24 AM
I still find that when watching a show that has anything in it with adultery or leaning that way, I get a twinge.
I don't know if that ever goes away????

It's amazing just how many plots have A's in them.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/26/09 05:40 AM
It really says something about society that in sitcoms they would use this over and over again. Most of the time it is just laughed about and hidden. It always bothered me but now it is worse. How can we expect our children to hold M near and dear when they are inundated with this all of the time.

I guess the better question is how do we not have horrible values when we were inundated with this stuff ourselves? I was raised with a good sense of family(all be it a dysfunctional one). I have a good sense of self and who I am and who I want to be and that is the legacy I plan on giving my children.
Posted By: KaylaAndy Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/26/09 06:09 AM
Funny - my family (parents, brothers and their wives) got into a conversation about politics and entertainers. My little bro idolizes Toby Keith - "true patriot" in his mind.

I made the crack about his glorifying adultery with his Mexico song... He brought up the booze and the drinking in the industry - and I said something about a patriot doesn't glorify something that attacks the fundamental basis of society - the family.

My mom- the one with a history of adultery sticks up for my POV and says - hey - if you take down the family you take down the country. So a true patriot doesn't glorify adultery. period.

Wow. Just wow!

Guess Toby Keith's Mexico song better get deleted from little bro's play list!!

LOL!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/26/09 03:26 PM
Well, day 2 of WH visiting with DSx2. Today he is taking them to his mother's house for Christmas. SIL will be there with the OM who broke up her M and their 2 kids. WH may bring POSOW to the festivities as well. MIL just says that she doesn't get involved in this kind of thing. Well, how could she when she cheated on FIL and FIL cheated on her too. WH and SIL used to say they would NEVER have an A because of their childhood. Time to break the cycle and show my boys what M should really be about. It's gonna be a long journey but I have to make it.

Here's hoping everyone has a HAPPY BOXING DAY laugh
Posted By: saynomore Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/26/09 03:34 PM
I have been following your story, Scotland and I admire your strength. I pray a good day for you and a safe return of your boys.

Can you please tell me what Boxing Day is. (-:

God's Blessings,

Say
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/26/09 03:42 PM
saynomore-Boxing Day is a holiday from England. In Canada we also celebrate it. It used to be a holiday like Christmas where all of the stores were closed and you spent time with your family. Now it has turned into a CRAZY shopping day where people go to stores and shop for bargains. My DS9 used to think it was a day where you would fight people. Oh children are funny sometimes. laugh
Say Scot old girl..

Where did the term "boxing" come from old bean?

Do say before tea-time what?
Originally Posted By: Scotland
I just thought of something funny that you said that is kind of on point. DS9 told me that they ate NACHOS for dinner. They had chocolate cake and slurpees and played video games all night. Would that quantify as carnival food the yak lady would serve? Disney-dad on a budget anyone? I have to laugh to keep from crying.

My WH really was a good dad until he started his A. He had a great relationship with them and now POOF he threw it all away for HIS "happiness". Well, maybe he will realize it is not so Happy like this. AHHHHHHHHH frustrating wayturds.


Yeah , the term Disney-dad gets used a lot here and it fits well.

I was of course using the "carnival food" as a metaphor for what the children would be taking in as examples in living but its not surprizing that they got fed that food.

When my wife tried to get our two boys,(18 and 14),to accept her BF they tried to buy and sell their way into their hearts by taking them to resorts and fancy restaurants. It was torture for me. I had allways wanted to take my family to those places and now after years of work and sacrifice, this idiot was going to look like a hero?
Well it didn't work. Children see through that stuff more than we think. People in general and especially our children trust and respect what others suffer through for them more than the easy way out. Especially when it comes to promises. They know that you don't run away from fighting for who you love.

Yes it is frustrating, I accually felt sorry for the OM. Yes guys I know that he was a POS getting his rocks off screwing another mans wife and she was soaking in the drugs and rebelious behavior she felt so entitled to. I just felt sorry for him because he was a coke-head successful businessman who bought my WW line. He believed that my WW loved him and depended on him and he was her savior. GEEEZZZ for Gods sake WW.. The "poor little cinderella" crap lol. Its amazing how many guys will believe that or just pretend(or want) to anyways.

Don't let it get ya down Scotty, "The reactas CAN take the sta-dain"

Yeah and what kind of hairdo does the POSOW have? Maybe one that would hide the horns?
Posted By: optimism Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/26/09 10:44 PM
Quote:
DS9 told me that they ate NACHOS for dinner. They had chocolate cake and slurpees and played video games all night.


So, I take it you provide scrumptuous, healthy, balanced meals and stick to consistent bed-times when they're home?
Like plan A-ing your WH indirectly through them - in a good way, not manipulatively.

Because....let's face it, even kids get sick of chocolate cake and slurpees. And as pointed out above, kids see through the bullsh!t. WH will feel be feeling the strain.

------Only throwing it out for consideration/discussion. I don't know from plan B except what I've read here.

Scot, you're still a hero. I love reading your thread. It's life-affirming.

opt
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/26/09 11:55 PM
I of course do not always have totally balanced meals here. The worst thing I would do would make breakfast for dinner to which WH would say "French Toast for dinner?" He used to make a big deal when once in a while (like when we were going somewhere on a trip) we would stop at a donut shop and the kids would ask for a donut and he would say "No donuts for breakfast." I just wanted to make the point that he was trying to "buy" them. Not making them eat correctly and letting them play video games all evening.

Wh even emailed them and said that they looked so cute playing games. I let my kids have treats every once in a while. They even get to stay up past their bedtime sometimes, but I can't do that everytime they are with me. I have to be the bad guy.

Wow, I just totally remembered something that I said to WH about a year ago. You see, I have known that OW existed for 2 years. I talked to her on the phone and saw her a few times and talked to her. I used to tell my WH that it felt like OW and I were HIS parents. I was his mom who would have to make him eat his veggies, take a bath, do homework and go to school. OW was like a part time dad who said "You want cake for dinner? Why not! Oh and play video games all day? Go ahead! Bedtime? what's that?" I was trying to tell him that I was the one who had to live regular life with him with responsibilities and she got to live the weekend kind of life. Wow, did I ever peg that one.

Worked 5 hours today at the ZOO(major retailer on boxing day in Canada) Time went by slowly but at least I didn't sit at home missing my family.
I love french toast lol would def eat it for supper
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/27/09 02:10 AM
Well, the boys are home safe and sound(not that I expected anything different). At least there was no close encounter of the POSOW kind today. There was a bit of an incident though. Nothing serious just a misunderstanding. DS9 came on to the porch and said "Daddy has to bring some stuff on the porch that I couldn't carry. I said, "okay wait for me to get in the house." He did but then I closed the house door. Didn't want to see WH. DS6 started crying that he wanted to come in the house not wait on the porch. He started crying. I wasn't going on to the porch or saying anything. Then WH came on the porch and said "Let him in the house for F sakes" (WH never started swearing A LOT until about 6 months ago and I even noticed and pointed it out to him)Well It wasn't me that was not letting him in. DS9 had told DS6 to wait for Daddy to say good bye. But WH thought I had locked the door and not let him in. Like I didn't want to just go outside and hug them and kiss them and make sure they were safe. Well, I almost broke NC and said "It wasn't me." But instead I just stood behind the door. DS6 came in and that was that.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/27/09 02:30 AM
AHHHHHHHH STUPID WAYTURDS. He broke a promise to DS9 again tonight. I hate that because I am the one who has to comfort him. WH left 1 hour and 10 minutes ago and told DS9 that he would email him as soon as he got home. Well it only takes 30 minutes MAX to drive there so now DS9 went to bed with no email as promised. He kept looking and didn't want to go to bed until he received one. I told him he could check first thing in the morning. AHHHHHHHHH must be nice to be a wayturd and have no consequences to your actions.
Originally Posted By: Scotland
AHHHHHHHHH must be nice to be a wayturd and have no consequences to your actions.

But Scottie, there are consequences to WH's actions: little by little he is destroying the esteem in which his children (should) hold him.

My WW's kids all love their mom. But they have absolutely no respect for her! And as they get older, they will likely want to have less and less to do with her. Then, when she's in her 60s and 70s, and they are young adults, she'll be left with no one coming to visit. Perhaps a perfunctory text message that says, "I love you mom." Just like the ones she's sending them today...
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/27/09 06:30 AM
OMG. so I thought that I pulled myself out of his drama and what happens? Well, DS9 asked if he could email Daddy and remind him about seeing him tomorrow. This is part of our arrangement of visitation. Well, I read his response(I know I shouldn't have but I am glad I did). He said that he something to do tomorrow and will not be here. WTF? I am scheduled to go to work every Sunday and WH knows that. He said that we both need each other to work to keep the kids in this house, etc.

Well, I had to call my Mom to see if she can watch the kids. I absolutely HATE having to rely on people but it isn't like I could call in sick. I need the money to feed and clothe my kids.

I was so angry at him when I called my Mom and then what happened? I got angry at my Mom. She agreed to watch the kids for me and even give me a ride to work if I needed it. But what did I get mad about? Her negative attitude(she called it giving me a dose of reality) She keeps telling me that WH will never be who he was ever again. That I can't keep telling myself that he will come back because he most likely won't and I have to be realistic. I can't keep hoping and thinking he will come back it is not good for me.

I was actually yelling at her because she wouldn't let me talk to her. I explained that I couldn't let my WH cake eat just like she was doing because I didn't want to be where my Dad is in a year and a half. I told her that I had to show WH what life would be like without me. He needs to see what is going to happen.

I think that this little stunt he pulled is a way to get back at me. He is trying to get me angry at him. Maybe he even wants a reaction out of me so he can say "See, that's why I left her, she is crazy."

Man this is going to be a disappointment to DS9. I hope he can express himself to WH. I hope he will say something like "Daddy what was so important for you to do today that you didn't have time to see me?" I won't tell my kids to say stuff like this because that would be using them but I hope they can think of these sort of things on their own.

Well, gotta go to bed since I have to function at work tomorrow. I can't afford to lose my job. AHHHHHHH

WAYTURDS SUCK BUTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry to hear that your Mom couldn't let you talk it out and be upset and also that she is supporting WHs position. It is very hard to get support from foggy people. Almost impossible to expect help from someone supporting a lifestyle that is against what you are fighting for. Its too bad that she couldn't add to her statement that he will never be the way he was because he will be BETTER than before. You know Mom, more mature and responsible as adults should be? Or I will do fine without him Mom.
Waynurds indeed!
Hang in there Scotty you are doing great.
Posted By: optimism Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/27/09 02:00 PM
Quote:
Sorry to hear that your Mom couldn't let you talk it out and be upset and also that she is supporting WHs position. It is very hard to get support from foggy people. Almost impossible to expect help from someone supporting a lifestyle that is against what you are fighting for. Its too bad that she couldn't add to her statement that he will never be the way he was because he will be BETTER than before. You know Mom, more mature and responsible as adults should be? Or I will do fine without him Mom.
Waynurds indeed!
Hang in there Scotty you are doing great.


Scotty, you know I'm no vet and I'm just trying to support you because I'm following your thread and you just seem like an amazing person. I want you to succeed for you and your kids. Sorting has said it very well. You are mostly alone in your fight (except for us). I noticed this in my sitch right away when I exposed. People Don't Get It! We live in a People Magazine Society where marriages are measured in minutes and faithfulness is a thing of the past. If you're experience is anything like mine in that regard, you will get very little support from those not familiar with MB. You just won't.

Also, I know you're feeling upset but I have to point out something you already know, just for emphasis because it's important. You were told by vets some time ago (I think maybe ML or Cat or someone like that) that your WH was going to lie to your children sooner or later. [if I'm wrong and I didn't read it in YOUR thread, I'm sure you've read enough here to know it's true]. He would let them down. That's what they do. I think you need to expect it. You'll be the one consoling them and Fred is right: there are huge consequences to his actions. Let them know they have at least one parent with some integrity - this told to me from a vet - and they will turn out okay. From my brief training in child psychology, if a child has at least ONE rock in their life (a parent, grandparent, coach, teacher, etc), they can thrive.

Again Scot. I'm no vet. I'm speaking only from the heart here and very limited experience with this stuff. (I'm still working a plan A and praying hard). Even so, I hope what I've said helps you a little. You're truly a remarkable human being.

Re-group and get out of the drama. Kids get stuck on porches once in a while, he's not scarred for life. smile
The vets will be back soon to keep you on the right track.

Opt
Originally Posted By: Scotland

I was so angry at him when I called my Mom and then what happened? I got angry at my Mom. She agreed to watch the kids for me and even give me a ride to work if I needed it. But what did I get mad about? Her negative attitude(she called it giving me a dose of reality) She keeps telling me that WH will never be who he was ever again. That I can't keep telling myself that he will come back because he most likely won't and I have to be realistic. I can't keep hoping and thinking he will come back it is not good for me.


Are you most upset that you lost your temper with your mom (who is helping you out when WH failed you AGAIN) or that she doesn't think your plan to get him back will work?

It might not work. Sometimes it doesn't. And sometimes after being without them, you don't want them back.

And sometimes we take our anger out on those we most love---like moms.

You really need a constant back up plan in place for your work situation. He is going to try to push buttons and make you wish you had not kicked him out. I know my WH (x now) relished me being here alone with an acre to mow and weedeat. He wanted me to ask for help soooooo bad. I just resolved to ask him for NOTHING. It about killed me yesterday to have to text him and ask him for help with our wireless connection password. I half expected him to refuse to answer my question.

But anyway, don't let on to your WH that you were upset by his not doing his part. Just chalk it up to his selfishness and move on.

You are doing great. Hang in there.
Originally Posted By: SmilingWoman
It about killed me yesterday to have to text him and ask him for help with our wireless connection password. I half expected him to refuse to answer my question.

I wish you'd asked the question about wireless connection passwords here, first (I'm assuming you mean wireless Internet and not wireless telephony?). Resetting the password on wireless Internet is a trivial matter if you know how to do it.

I/we might have been able to spare you the trauma of contacting xWH.
Posted By: BCboy Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/27/09 05:14 PM
For the wireless internet I am assuming you are talking about for your home computer and the wireless network in your home. I presume you are talking about the password that most wireless routers require. You can bypass this by plugging your laptop into the router to make a wired connection to your router. Call your internet service provider and tell them you need to reset the password to the wireless and they can walk you through it.
Originally Posted By: BCboy
For the wireless internet I am assuming you are talking about for your home computer and the wireless network in your home. I presume you are talking about the password that most wireless routers require. You can bypass this by plugging your laptop into the router to make a wired connection to your router. Call your internet service provider and tell them you need to reset the password to the wireless and they can walk you through it.


Thanks to both of you for offering to help! I don't know why I didn't think of asking here....but it wasn't for a laptop or computer...it was for the neighbor boy's new IPod touch. I had the password, but it wouldn't work. XH told me to try the randomily generated numbers he had written down instead...that worked.

Thanks tho. You guys are great.

I don't ask him for ANYTHING though. Everytime I do I regret it. He was ok yesterday though. Texting works better if I have to discuss something.
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/27/09 08:01 PM
Scotty, you need make WH the backup plan, not just have someone else standing by.

Find someone else to watch them on the days you work. Period. Then, if he wants visitation, he can confirm it himself through the IM's.

Put all the onus on him. It stinks that the kids are hurt, however that is just the expected outcome for now. They're going to be ok in the long run, because they have you.

I also don't blame you for yelling at your mom. She's a stinking wayward right now, too, and you won't be able to stomach her or have any respect for her till she owns the damage SHE is doing herself, and is repentant for it. Of course she can't bring herself to condemn what your WH is doing, or to support your fight to save your M, because she's wallowing in the same sucking swamp he's in.

Since it's not good for ~you~ to be so triggered, have as little contact with your mom as you can manage. If you need her once in a while for emergency babysitting and that works ok for you, so be it. Just don't expect anything good from her till she quits committing adultery and defogs.

Sorry if I seem harsh; it's just the plain facts.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/28/09 12:51 AM
Neak I have been thinking that myself. After being on here for this short time and doing all of the reading I feel bad for what I have done. I have been tolerating my Mom's affair. I acted civil to her adultery partner. I did what was easier for me and what I thought I should do. Now I know how wrong I was.

I talked to my Mom today because she told me OM was going to drive her to my house and then he was going to take me to work. I said "Nope I would rather walk" and that would take me an hour. She then said to me, "This is giving ME anxiety and stress. My stomach is in knots. I am bending over backwards to help you and I am the one who is so depressed I have had to see a therapist." After she said this stuff, I hung up.

Then I called my dad and he said "How do the boys feel about spending the day with Grandpa?" My dad watched the kids for me and the kids had fun.

I am AWARE that my WH may NEVER come home. I am not living my life like he will. I am making a life separate from him. I did what I had to so I wouldn't need him to be home and watch the kids. Honestly sometimes I do think that it would have been easier to go along with what he wanted, but it wouldn't have been right. Emotionally it would have torn me apart.

WH sent an email to DS9 and said that he had things to do today and that was why he couldn't see them. Then he said he thought I told him that I didn't work on Sundays anymore. Right now when He called DS9 he was asking about that very thing. DS9 responded with "I don't know what she told you but I do know she went to work. We dropped her off and picked her up from there."

I have told DS9 that he can talk about what happens with me and that I don't want him to lie to Daddy but he needs to tell his father that the time he talks to him should be about them NOT ME.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/28/09 01:20 AM
Opt- I know what you mean. While I was in Plan A I kept telling people that the biggest thing that was bothering me when I talked to people was that I had to keep defending what I was doing, to them. I had to explain that I was doing what I had to to have the best chance at saving my M. Many asked me if I could really take him back after all of this, and I respond with "Yes I can." I know that even if my WH does want to come back it doesn't guarantee that I will want him back by then or that we will be able to work at it but I do believe in MB concepts.

I felt really lost before I found this place and finding this website and forum I felt found. I just want to do my best. It has only been 9 days since WH moved in with OW. I am not going to get over it in that short of time of even in a few weeks/months. This is going to take TIME and I need to keep HOPE and FAITH.

I am going to read some more on here and see what else I can come up with. Even reading the beginning of my thread I can see the possibilities that have been opened up. The difference that it has made in me and my mental health.
Quote:
She then said to me,"This is giving ME anxiety and stress. My stomach is in knots. I am bending over backwards to help you and I am the one who is so depressed I have had to see a therapist."


GOOD!

This means you're upright actions are causing her conflict!


Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/28/09 05:00 PM
I know Marshmallow. It is hard to talk to her when she gets like that though. She tries to convince me that she is not as bad as my WH because she didn't actually have sex with OM until she moved out. I told her that an affair begins when there is a reciprocation of feelings between the two parties involved. That she was having an affair on my Dad from the beginning of that regardless of when they started having sex. I also told her that I had to do what I did so I wouldn't put myself through the torture that my Dad has been experiencing in the last year and a half due to her cake eating.

During all of this, she was absolutely quiet. I have made some points throughout these past months of agony for me but I think only now the fog is slowly creeping away. She is still in the fog but she isn't happy. I am going to try to put more pressure on her relationship with POSOM and maybe that will be good. My Dad is probably too hurt to actually want my Mom back but who knows?

I was having a rough weekend and I am over that today. There is a fresh layer of snow outside and the sun is shining bright. This is going to be a GOOD day laugh
Scotland,

It's tough to be on the receiving end as a child and as a spouse. Like you, I experienced the aftermath of infidelity in both ways.

My father cheated on my mother throughout their marriage. Most of it happened before I could really remember it and I had a long time where I felt I had the perfect family. He then went through a midlife crisis and snapped back to old habits and cheated on my mom, then on the OW (after he married her, the only time I ever supported infidelity), and now on his new wife, though he seems to have mended his ways after nearly dying.

Don't hold your feelings back with your mom. You are now on the receiving end of what your father went through and your mom knows this. Throwing her infidelity in her face is exactly what you need to do and don't tolerate being around OM in any way.

I set my foot down with my father and let him know that under no circumstance would I visit him with OW there and that she was never in any way welcome in my home.

He tried later to get my siblings and I to accept her, but it never happened and we repeated our boundary.

They divorced, partly because we'd never accept her, mainly because he cheated on her too.

Stand up for your father. Let her know repeatedly that you are going through what your father is going through and it is absolute hell and torture for you and the most selfish thing a parent could do to her children. The unfaithful never think of the impact on their children and don't understand that they are cheating on them as well. Infidelity is a betrayal of an entire family, not just a BS.

Just some thoughts from someone who has been through it on both ends.

As a BS I can tell you that you will eventually feel indifference towards your WH. That's when he will have truly lost you.

I would have considered reconsilitation with my WXW a full year and a half into my personal recovery. Now? No way. I wouldn't want to sentence myself to a life like the one I had, even for the kids.

They have settled into stability and have accepted the routine and have accepted our significant others. Stability really is the greatest gift you can give your kids, even if it's an imperfect scenario of split homes.

I would advise you to stabalize a visitation arrangement where he has the kids on specific days of the week and certain weekends. This stabalizes things for your kids and gives you predictability in knowing when you need to arrange to have him get the kids.
Posted By: Dealan-de Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/28/09 05:32 PM
> not as bad as my WH because she didn't actually have sex with OM until she moved out

Honestly, does she expect ANYONE to believe this?

See, no matter what the TRUTH is...once she began the EA or whatever, she IMMEDIATELY became deceitful...and EVERYTHING she says from that point on is suspect.

(imo - not that it matters)

You, my dear, are A-MAZ-IN!
Originally Posted By: Dealan-de
> not as bad as my WH because she didn't actually have sex with OM until she moved out

Honestly, does she expect ANYONE to believe this?


My WH actually tried to tell my grandpa that because he didn't have sex with his OW that he didn't cheat. Never mind that he moved out, and got into her bed for some "gropy gropy."

He's just lucky he was talking through email... the old man mighta just tied him into a pretzel. LOL
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/28/09 08:30 PM
It is funny how wayturds want to try to convince themselves that they are better than they are. They have to try to convince everyone that they are doing things the right way and that they are good. It is silly talk and I make sure to tell my Mom that whenever she starts talking like that. Maybe it is my way of giving HER a little dose of reality.

Wow, so much Drama in my life, I am just glad that I took myself out of WH drama. WH has emailed DSx2 twice already today. The second one said that he is at work and he misses them. He works with OW so I guess she isn't filling the void as well as he thought she would. GOOD. I know I shouldn't think about him at all but it is hard not to. It has only been 10 days since I went to Plan B so I have to retrain myself not to think about him all of the time. It will take time and I am not going to beat myself up every time I slip. For me it is best that I acknowledge it so I can make changes.

I am in a good head space today and that is the times I take advantage to make positive changes. Today the kids and I are just gonna stay home and get some organizing done. They have A LOT of toys that need to find new homes. It is a good thing and they feel good doing it. We played Battleship and had fun. We will continue to make good memories and I hope it will make up for the void in their life. I had always admired single mothers, they have to be their children's everything. I never thought I would become one.
Maybe you can help your MOm and maybe you can't. Remember the success you are working for is you alone first. Your connection to honesty and strength in relationships. I am sure you are aware of that Scot, just don't want you to get bogged down with a parents mistakes.

Glad to see that you are moving forward in all this. Take excellent care of yourself k?
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/28/09 09:44 PM
Awesome job with the way you spoke to your mom, standing up against her adultery. It's the right thing to do, and may even benefit her, besides.

I would caution you against continuing to monitor the emails between the boys and WH. Right now while everything is still pretty fresh it won't have as much of an impact, but it's going to wind up being a huge drain on your Love Bank. Maybe there's someone you can trust to monitor it for you, and filter it for them.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/28/09 09:53 PM
DS9 knows the email address and password so he actually goes on there by himself and responds on his own as well. Maybe I will just do like I did for the phone calls and not be involved at all. I was doing it in thoughts that I would be protecting DS9 from something but I have to take myself out of it. Do you think that I should probably just tell DS9 that he and DS6 can read and respond to the emails themselves and not let me know what is in them unless it is something that upsets him in some way?

I know that WH probably assumes that I am the one reading them and responding so that is why he has continued to send messages through their email address. I am calling IM tonight to ask them to email him and tell him that it is unacceptable to email the boys with any info about me at all. That is what THEY are for not DS9. I am also asking them to email him with the visitation schedule again and they will ask him to contqact them if there is a problem with it. Still a learning process for me I guess.

I have spent the last three days reading the thread on Mimi_here. It is funny how much alike our sitch were/are. I see how much easier it is to go to a dark Plan B with NC so that I am not always pulled in to those feelings again and again. It is also awesome to see some of you that were giving me advice were there for her too. Thanks for it all.
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/28/09 11:13 PM
And she was there for me. smile

You'll work the kinks out of this Plan B with not too much trouble - you're a fast learner.
Scotland, I've very much enjoyed reading your thread and seeing how you've been dealing with all this. It's been helpful for me, even though our situations are quite different.

I hope this works out for the best for you... whatever that 'best' may end up being. I'm a big fan of your self control, class, and grace under pressure. smile
Wolf, not Cougar
Posted By: Tabby1 Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/29/09 01:45 PM
I hope someone else has already chimed in - I haven't been on since Thursday. Ontario would be considered a no fault state, however, you do have one thing at your disposal that doesn't appear to exist south of the border. You can write your own agreement and it is legal. Anything that is agreed upon, including keeping the kids from OW, can be enforced. Though no court will ever order this, it can be obtained through the separation agreement. The thing is, both of you have to sign it. Generally speaking, WS's are much more likely to sign stuff away early on while they still feel guilty. This guilt will turn to anger directed at you at which point he will not agree to anything you want. Also, if he has already allowed the children to meet OW, it will be more difficult to get him to agree. I hope you did make a big stink about it (via your IMs of course). You are early in Plan B right now so he may have enough instability that you can get him to sign.

OK I'll go back and read what you ahve done so far.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/29/09 07:07 PM
Okay, so I need some advice on what to tell IM to tell WH about him sending messages through the kids email about visiting with them and things he thinks he needs to get to me.

I would like to be firm yet not break all contact with his children.

He sent them a message today and it said

"Hello boys

Please tell mommy that if she needs me to watch you guys to just ask. Of course I want to.

If she is working sunday then I want to pick you up Saturday afternoon and have you sleep over to Sunday afternoon. If mommy does not like that then I can watch you Sunday all day at your house. She can use the truck to go to work.

I love you both. Missing you both.

I'll call tonight around 730. "

He's still not getting it and this is killing me to figure out what to do. I know you guys advised me to get IM's to be harder on him. Well, he did make a move. He called them and let a message (they had already left for Christmas vaca). They said that the message was positive and that he thanked them for being IM for us. That is a positive sign but he is still is not going through them.

What should I ask them to write? I want him to STOP sending messages through the kids like that one. I mean now I look like the bad guy in their eyes because I am sure they want to see their father and would love to spend the night with him but I am not about to let them go to OW house. I can't stop him from taking them there as it is not against the law here. But I can ask him not to take them to be with her.

AHHHHHHHH I just don't know what to get IM to tell him. I can make arrangements for someone else to watch the kids for me on the weekends but we had agreed to these times and I thought he would at least stick to this part since it involved his kids.

Lessons I am learning everyday. I am currently writing a draft of something to get IM to write to him. Lemme know what your thoughts are.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/29/09 07:18 PM
this is the email draft that I will get IM to send. I am going to wait a bit to have a vet see if it is okay then I will let IM know they can send it.

Any edits are welcome but keep in mind I want him to want to talk to them so it can't be too harsh.

Thanx

"WH,

BW has asked us to pass on some messages for her.

Firstly, there may have been a misunderstanding about Sundays. BW has changed her shifts so that she starts at 10am so as not to wake the children up early when you go to pick them up. So, she had agreed to have you pick them up on Sundays at 9am and drop them off at 630pm. Also every other Saturday(starting NEXT Saturday, January 9, 2010) the same thing. If these times are not good for you please call us and let us know so we can pass on the message to BW and she can make other arrangements for a sitter.

She has also stated that you can pick up the boys on Wednesday nights from 6 until 830pm. Please call us and let us know that these times are okay or any changes you wish to make to them.

As far as sending emails to the kids. BW has asked that we tell you to stop sending messages through the kids to be passed on to her. It is not appropriate to put the boys in the middle like that and not fair. Any messages sent through the kids will be disregarded.

It has also been brought to our attention that you have exposed your children to your adultery partner. BW has made it clear to us that she finds this totally unacceptable and wrong. She would ask that you refrain from doing so in the future.

Please do not hesitate to call us and get us to pass on any messages you wish about the children or finances.

Thank you
IM
Posted By: Tabby1 Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/29/09 07:30 PM
My first reaction is that the bit about the OW is too far down in the letter. Rather than appearing important, it looks like an afterthought. Unfortunately, there is a lot of information in this letter, all of which is important, so it's difficult to cut it down further. One possible way is to eliminate everything about the Sunday stuff as it is in response to the message sent through your kids which you are disregarding anyway. In fact, you can probably leave out the Wednesday stuff as well. Make the letter about (a) using the IMs only for passing information and (b) requesting that the children not be exposed to OW. Also for the latter, you may want to beef up your argument about that. As a wayward, he doesn't give a crap what you think is unacceptable and wrong. Perhaps if you changed the wording so that it's not what you think, but simply that children should not be exposed to adultery or adulterous behavior (or something along those lines where it's just a statement of a moral principal rather than YOUR moral principals - can you see the difference?).
Posted By: Tabby1 Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/29/09 07:33 PM
How's this?

Originally Posted By: Scotland

"WH,

BW has asked us to pass on some messages for her. BW has asked that we tell you to stop sending messages through the kids to be passed on to her. It is not appropriate to put the boys in the middle like that and not fair. Any messages sent through the kids will be disregarded.

BW has also learned that you have exposed your children to your adultery partner. It is not appropriate for children to be exposed to adultery or adulterous behavior. This goes against the way they have been raised. To expose them to this would be morally confusing and unfair to them. BW would ask that you refrain from doing so in the future.

Please do not hesitate to call us and get us to pass on any messages you wish about the children or finances.

Thank you
IM
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/29/09 07:37 PM
hmmmmm That is a GOOD one. That's why I am waiting for other people's input. Taking the onus off of my morals would do a better job.

Could I maybe include a point for him to look at the children part of the plan B letter as visitations were clearly planned out there?
Posted By: Tabby1 Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/29/09 07:40 PM
It's a long time until Sunday. I'd ignore what he said to your kids and let him make a proper request through the IM.
Or This:

Originally Posted By: Scotland


"WH,

Please stop sending messages through the kids to be passed on to BW. Any further attempts to relay messages directly to BW through the kids will be disregarded. If necessary, any new messages to the kids may be filtered.

Additionally, it is not appropriate for children to be exposed to adultery or adulterous behavior. This is a serious concern as it goes against the way you and BW have raised your children. To expose them to this is morally confusing and unfair to them. Please refrain from doing so in the future.

Please do not hesitate to call us and get us to pass on any messages related only to the children or finances.

Thank you
IM
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/29/09 07:48 PM
Okay. I have made the changes and will send it to IM to send to him. I will also get cracking on making other arrangements for someone ELSE to watch the kids on Sunday (in case he falls through again).

What do I tell DS9 about what he should say to WH on the phone when WH tries to pass on messages?
Quote:
What do I tell DS9 about what he should say to WH on the phone when WH tries to pass on messages?


Sorry Dad, you need to run that by the IMs.

If Dad argues, repeat as necessary or simply hang up the phone.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/29/09 07:51 PM
Thank You PM. Very good advice indeed. laugh I know that DS9 doesn't like being put in the middle and I have told him that his time talking to Daddy should be about their relationship and not about OUR relationship. This would be a better thing to tell him to do and say laugh
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/29/09 09:14 PM
You can have the IM's send a visitation calendar which you have prepared for oh, say, the next year. That alone sends a very good message, ha ha, and would break it down so it was much easier for him.

Mark out the holiday hours, dividing it up a la divorce. The IM's can let him know that the holiday hours are a proposal, and if he has a counter-offer he can let them know. They should also tell him that he should pick out a two-week period during summer vacation when he will have them full-time, and you will do the same.

If he is not able to provide adequate notice of not being able to care for them on a given day, he needs to provide a sitter. They are his responsibility during his times.

He needs to see what the rest of his life will be like if he pursues his present course. And that is just a pleasant side-effect of getting things organized the way you need them.
That's a GREAT idea Neak. They even have some available online that he could access at any time.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/29/09 10:55 PM
Okay Neak I will get right on that. I did have it all WRITTEN out but I can actually put it in Calendar form maybe it will make it EASIER for him (GRIN).

We had agreed that he would take the kids when I had to go to work so I think I am just going to leave that the way that it is. It is every Sunday and every other Saturday. He is okay with it in theory as you can tell by his email but he wants to come in HERE still. He's just NOT getting it. Well, maybe the email from the IMs will help a little.

I will make backup arrangements (not my MOM [WINK])that I can call on short notice if he should not arrive, as I can not just leave my kids home alone and go to work.
Posted By: catperson Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/30/09 01:01 AM
I would just ask the IMs to tell him "Scotland told us that you are trying to make arrangements through the children. Please don't do that, as the kids are getting uncomfortable. That's what we are for. We are glad to help you see your kids as much as possible, as long as you honor scotland's wishes."
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/30/09 02:06 AM
Okay so kinda off topic but this is an area where WH would have been the one to handle this and the kids are feeling it.

They play on this site called Roblox. Well, wouldn't you know it is no longer working on our computer anymore. DS9 asked WH about it today an informed me that WH is going to email him and tell him what to do but I am going to be the one who has to do it. I NEED to do this on my own.

I told DS9 that he could respond to WH email tomorrow and tell him "Thanks but Mommy is going to do it without the email." Or something like that.

I need to let him see that I don't need him anymore and the computer in our house is none of WH concern anymore. AHHHHHH Fred_VA maybe you know something that can help.

What the problem is that whenever they click on the play button it tells them to install it. We already have it installed. I erased the browser history and even uninstalled and reinstalled. Keep getting the same error. Anyone out there that can help? I will be on tomorrow to see if there is any helpful solutions. Thanx
Scotland, I don't know the Roblox site or its games, but here's a link to its help section.

http://www.roblox.com/Help/Builderman.aspx

There is a link to "How do I reinstall the Roblox software?" which might be helpful.

I will be offline for a while beginning early afternoon (EST) as I will be winging my way across the Atlantic. If you don't get the answer there, please keep posting here. With all the smarts here, someone is sure to have the answer...
Hey Scot If you cant find help on Freds link,(which looks pretty good BTW), maybe you can call them directly on the phone.

If you pay for the time they should be able to help.

Also don't be satisfied with some technician that answers and you can almost "hear " him shrug his shoulders. Insist on being helped.

Your WH would probably have to do the same thing.
Quote:

I told DS9 that he could respond to WH email tomorrow and tell him "Thanks but Mommy is going to do it without the email." Or something like that.


If you don't want DS9 to pass messages to you from WH, then don't pass any to WH through him either.

You. must. be. consistent.

He asked for his father's help. If he is unable to fix the problem by using his father's email, then let him deal w/ it. You don't need to read it.

You won't be able to make WH stop passing messages through your son. The way to end it, is by insisting your son passes nothing to you or through you. At nine, he can totally do this.
One thing you can try is to uninstall it. Go to "Start" then to "Control Panel", then click on a picture that says something about add or remove software.

Find the Roblox and uninstall it.

Reboot, reinstall and it will hopefully work.

I also recommend you do a search for a "free registry cleaner" and run that.

Hope this helps. I'm totally guessing on this, but this is what I'd do.
If I may, "CCleaner" is what I use.
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/30/09 05:18 AM
Agree with Marsh - you set the bar for being dark.

Your son can say, "You need to ask the IM's," or "Please don't ask me to say that," or any other variations on that theme. What he should not say is, "Mommy will handle that on her own." What you do is none of WH's business, no matter how much you want to make sure he knows you didn't use his help.

If you succeed in handling it on your own and your DS says something voluntarily later, that's different. Without trying to control what he says (too much - because you're certainly going to want to encourage him not to pass information), you don't want to condone the relay of info, either.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/30/09 04:14 PM
Thanx everyone. I really didn't want to encourage passing of info along I just really wanted WH to know that I wasn't going to read or follow what he was emailing. When I woke up the boys had already been awake. DS9 wrote his Dad an email saying that he understood what to do and that Mommy would take care of it. Well, I definitely can't control what he writes hehehehe.

As far as uninstalling and reinstalling I have tried that already. This is really funny coming from me because before M I was enrolled in College for computer programming. I only attended 1 year but you would think I would have remembered something hehehehe.

I will look over the page and thanx for the gentle 2x4 reminder. laugh

DARK means DARK. It's my first slip so I guess I am doing good because it has been rough not talking to him. My dreams have even started being all about WH and that is driving me MAD. Chin up a NEW YEAR starts on Friday laugh
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/30/09 09:06 PM
Slips do happen.

That was minor, so don't beat yourself up about it, learn how to avoid it, and go on.

You're doing fine!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/30/09 09:35 PM
Thanx Neak. It doesn't always feel like it. Sometimes I feel like I should/could give up. But I remember that those are thoughts that are born out of fear. I constantly tell myself that when I am thinking clearly it is a good idea. I always remind myself what it is that I really want. I want to be happy for me and my kids and I want to TRY. As long as I do my best(which I always tell my kids) then I did NOT fail no matter which way things turn out.

It is funny though because the days seem to be going faster, which is a blessing sometimes(watching the clock is TORTURE), but it is frightening also. I do miss him very much. That's probably why I started dreaming about him so often.

I want to simply say "THIS SUCKS." Well, off to work. The kids are sleeping at my sister's again and then I go watch them all during the day tomorrow so my sister can work overtime. Then we will ring in the NEW YEAR there and come home. Here's to hoping that 2010 will be better than 2009. laugh
Your a rock star
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/31/09 04:48 AM
Okay. WH FINALLY went through the IMs. He sent an email but the IMs computer is down now so I don't know what he wrote. He called them too though to make sure they got it and when IM said their computer is down then he just told them. He want to come and see the kids on Friday but no set time yet. He said he would tell DS9 when he talked to him on the phone on Thursday night(New Year's). He just doen't get the no going through the kids thing. Maybe I should "accidentally" turn off my cell and unplug the answering machine again. I mean what kind of a system is this? I will go PART WAY your way and the rest of the way mine? AHHHHHH

Then he said he would pick up the kids on Sunday at 6am and bring them home for supper and to get ready for school. Our previous arrangement was for him to get them from 9 am until 630pm on Sundays. What do I do now? Maybe he didn't read that part of the Plan B letter correctly. Now that IM computer is down there is no way to send him a message. He doesn't have voicemail on his cell.

Also, he told them to ask me why there is a $54 charge from Intellius. Do I respond to that one? That was when I was trying to find her family to expose. It was Dec4. What should I say about that?

I know that I seem very needy right now but I am just trying to get this all right. This seems so unnatural to me but I know that my instincts were wrong so far.

Thanx
Posted By: reading Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/31/09 05:07 AM
The Intellus charge.....he MUST be able to figure that out on his own. You did expose, right?

I would, since you are in B, have IM respond that it was for research you were doing. Period. No other explanation.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/31/09 05:21 AM
I did Expose but the funny thing is that the Intellus was USELESS. It actually didn't get me her mother's phone number. I was heartbroken then and I later exposed to about 20 of her family members on FB a week later when they changed their privacy settings.

Sounds good though. I know I was going to tell the truth but in a way that it wouldn't be an LB.
Ah Scotty you are NOT too needy hon, hang in there the vets will come up with sumpin
He wants to come get them at 6 a.m. on Sunday because it is unlikely that you would be able to find someone else to be there so early for the pickup. He wants to weasel his way into the house.

Yes, have your IMs tell him that the Intellius charge was for research, and they should refer him back to the child visitation times stated on the addendum to your Plan B letter. The IMs should also tell him to let THEM know what time he wants to pick up (not "come see") the boys on Friday and they will check with you to make sure that time is convenient.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/31/09 07:01 AM
Thanx LC. I am going to contact my IM ASAP in the morning as by the time I got their message it was too late to call them tonight. I have to go to my sister's and watch her kids while she goes to work but I am going to try to get on here when I can. I am going to turn off my cell and unplug the answering machine.

I am a little mad though. I know he is trying to push me a little to try to see if I will budge. I USED to start work on Sundays at 7 am and I CHANGED my shifts to 10 so I wouldn't have to wake the kids up so early in the morning to get them off to be with their Dad. I will have to get IMs computer fixed for them so they can still send messages(WINK). Darn Technology, oh WAIT! I LIKE TECHNOLOGY hehehehehe.

Well, noone said this would be easy. Actually you all warned me it would be harder than Plan A and R would be harder still. It will be worth it someday whichever way this turns out. I am the forever optimist and I keep my Hope and Faith alive.

Night all.
Posted By: MicheleG Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/31/09 07:23 AM
You're doing great Scotland!! Lady Clueless is anything BUT clueless when it comes to IMing. Follow what she says.
Posted By: Tabby1 Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/31/09 02:45 PM
Your WH is definitely pushing the boundaries. He's forcing a power struggle onto you. Absolutely DO NOT give an inch or he'll take a mile. You're doing great! Keep it up!
You can always try a different browser with your computer. I have things that work on Firefox but don't on IE. It's a thought.
Originally Posted By: MicheleG
You're doing great Scotland!! Lady Clueless is anything BUT clueless when it comes to IMing. Follow what she says.


Ditto.
Thanks, Michelle and Pep! I try my best!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/31/09 04:57 PM
Thank you all for the words of encouragement. I called my Ims this morning and passed on the messages that I have for WH. They are going to call him later today when he gets off of work and then they will call me at my sister's and let me know what his response is.

It is difficult in this part because I don't WANT to be difficult I HAVE to be. I asked him to follow just a few stipulations and he isn't so I have to show him a little tough love. I only feel bad because it affects the kids more. But that is because of WH actions not mine.

Let's see what happens next shall we? hehehehehehe
Quote:

I don't WANT to be difficult I HAVE to be.


Change this.
You are being firm with your boundaries, you are NOT being a difficult woman.
Posted By: Dealan-de Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/31/09 05:26 PM
Nah. Yer not difficult.

Difficult would have been handing him your boundries written in Mandrin Chinese.

If anyone is being difficult it's wh. It's not like all of everything wasn't written out for him from the get-go.

Don't allow that kind of thinking anymore. 'kay?
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/31/09 06:38 PM
Okay. Maybe a porr choice of words. At least I got the padded 2x4 this time. ;D

Pep- Is there a link to your story out there somewhere? I have read about Dealan-de, mimi_here, Neak and a few others. I was just wondering about your story. You seem to have been around to help a lot of others so I was just curious laugh

It gives me more HOPE and FAITH when I am feeling down(and having a bad case of INSOMNIA) to read the stories of ones who are in R. It is where I HOPE to be and I have FAITH that either I will be there or personally R at some point.

Thanx(Us silly Canadians with all the manners tehehehehe, feel like I say thank you too much sometimes)
Here

Closest thing to my story ... My experience pre-dated MB.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 12/31/09 07:18 PM
Well, isn't that FUNNY. I DO remember reading that now. I have read so may people's stories I think they are becoming a BLURRRRRRRRRRR hahahaha.

Gotta go for a bit. I am with my DSx2 and their cousins at my sister's house. That is DS9, DN7, DS6, and DN5 all together and acting like siblings(which basically means ever once in a while there is WW3 in here). They are close and that is awesome but some times it can make anyone feel a bit NUTTY.

My dear sister also has 4 cats and 4 new fish(which one of the cats keeps trying to EAT).

New Year's eve with them all will be awesome and since WH never attended any New Year's celebrations with us in the past(usually ASLEEP by 11pm) then no real triggers tonight.

My Mom and Dad will be though so that should be INTERESTING.
Originally Posted By: Dealan-de
Difficult would have been handing him your boundries written in Mandrin Chinese.


ROFLMAO
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 01/01/10 03:47 PM
happynewyear
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 01/01/10 05:10 PM
THANX NEAK. Happy New year to everyone. Here's to hoping that 2010 is better than 2009(although if it is worse that'll REALLY suck).

So, nothing new on my front (phew) but I think my Dad is DONE with my Mom. Last night, he was acting a little weird to her(although they showed up to my sister's AT THE SAME TIME). He made little digs at her all night and after midnight he gave her the finger behind her back and then said "GOOD BYE". My parents have always said that they don't say "Good-bye" they say "See you later." because good-bye is too final(something you say to people who have passed).

It is funny too because my sister told me that she had hung up on our mom too the other day and that my mom said, "I don't know what is the matter with you two girls." To which my sister responded, "Mom, it's you not US." I guess she is feeling the pressure a bit and you know what that is okay with me.

As far as my sitch, WH talked to DS9 last night and didn't pass on any messages. There was a misunderstanding with me IMs I think though. I told my IMs that if WH told them what time he was coming to get the boys today, that he could pick them up. I think they thought I said he COULDN'T because WH told DS9 that he wanted to take them out sledding today but I said "No."

DS9 got off of the phone and asked me why I said "No." and I told him that I hadn't. Then I said that there must have been a misunderstanding but we will find something else to do anyways(maybe visit some friends).

HAPPY NEW YEAR TO THE MB WORLD.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 01/01/10 05:55 PM
Just talked to IM and there was a misunderstanding. My IMs are a couple and they have decided that to make sure that there was no unnecessary info past on to either WH or myself that one would talk to WH and the other one would talk to me. That had been working until My IM wrote a note and I guess the other IM couldn't read it well enough. That is how WH got the impression that I didn't want him to get the boys today. Oh well, it isn't a big deal.

Then I guess the IM told my WH to read the Plan B letter again. WH admitted he hadn't read it yet but it was in the truck so he would read it. Well, that is interesting. First I thought he HAD read the letter. Then I thought he would throw it way. Nw I know he did neither. Actually, just thought of something. He had to have read some of the letter. We have always had IMs on speed dial so he didn't know the number. He called them though so he must have read SOME of the letter before. Maybe he just hadn't read the addendum. Oh well, enough obsessing about WH today.

This explains a bit about his behaviour though. Well, we are firmly planted in Plan B now.

Feeling UP but that can change any moment. Keeping my head up and still reading the story of mimi_here (on page 26).
Happy 2010 Scotty.

I just wanted to say that I am very pleased to see you "working" other people's threads, reaching out and offering your point of view/advise/encouragement.

It's very important to your growth and understanding of MB to give back much of what you've learned.

I think you will find the more you post to help others, the better your vision becomes regarding your own marriage/situation. I've always found that when I attempt to help someone else, I need to dig deeper inside myself to make sure that I'm being honest and true. In other words, I run a bullchit check on myself - it's a good process.

You are such a welcome addition to MB.
Click to reveal..

Even if you're a Canuck stickout



Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 01/01/10 09:29 PM
Thanx Pep. I have always heard that the best way to learn something is to TEACH. I do read other people's threads and help out where and when I think I can. I am no vet but I do have some personal experience and definitely have my own opinions.

I have read some of the things that I wrote and look at it as if I am giving myself that SAME advice too.

My sister said she thinks I am ADDICTED to this site and you know what I HOPE she's right. If there was anything to be addicted to, this would be the best thing. hehehehehehehe

BTW, it's nice to know that you don't hold my citizenship against me hehehehehe (although my Mom keeps trying to tell me that since SHE is American that I am too).
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 01/01/10 10:00 PM
There was a slight "trigger" last night though. I was watching New Year's Celebrations at the falls and Glass Tiger was playing. The only song that they showed in full on TV was "Some Day". Listening to the lyrics made me a little sad but I made it through. laugh
here's to you and your boys for a bright and wonderful New Year!!!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 01/02/10 04:03 AM
Wow, that was WEIRD. I was just sitting here and all of a sudden I looked at the window and thought that WH should be home soon. Not in a R way but just as if he hadn't left. My sister warned me that this would happen but WOW it catches me off gurad when it does.
The toughest New Year I had was the switch from 2006 to 2007. I cried, and cried, and cried and then went and kissed all of my kids as they slept.

I lost the family in 2006 so I understand your reaction.

But now, in 2009, I have a great gf in my life and a set visitation and I'm happy to have WXW out of my life.

So things do turn around and you will feel different about things as time goes on.

Keep your chin up.

On another note: MB is good and it is bad. MB can keep you stuck. You will get to a point in your healing where you should really step away for a bit of time before coming back.

Reading the similarity of the stories here can keep you in a place where you don't really heal.

I'm back and I read the posts on here about once or twice a day, but I use to stay on here for hours on end, combing the threads, and posting to everyone.

I was stuck in my healing by this. Just a thought.
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 01/02/10 06:20 AM
Was it really keeping you stuck, or was it helping you reach the point where you could let go and move on to the next level of healing?

I know for me, the first couple years the A was all I could think about anyway, and spending plenty of time on MB channeled the thinking (and thinking and thinking and thinking) that I would have been doing anyway, into constructive channels.

Eventually there came I time when I didn't need MB for me, at least not for anything A-related.

Maybe there are people who are truly stuck, but I suspect that many who feel as if they got stuck were just processing their feelings till they reached a point they could progress. Healing goes through so many levels, and each must be mastered before going on to the next.
I guess there comes a point where writing about infidelity over and over again does just serve to keep you stuck. Much in the same way that my divorce care friends aren't as much a part of my life anymore.

We use to all get together and gripe about our exes. We got together a few months ago and I was getting bombarded with questions about things regarding my ex and I really had no desire to talk about her at all. I realized how far I had come.

Her and her infidelity and the loss of my family was all I could talk about for a long time and I found comfort in sharing that with others who felt and understood that kind of pain. But now I only wish to talk about things when I choose to or to share my advice with those who are going through the process right now.

Scotland is a bit of a different case since I often try to help BHs in their situation and to offer advice based on my own custody battle and experience with a WW.

Scotland, you are an interesting story and I really feel for your kids, who are currently confused out of their minds. My experience with the custody fight taught me some lessons which I can hopefully pass to you so that they can get to a place where things aren't as confusing for them.

A set visitation schedule is key for them to adjust and offers them stability which is vital to their development. Predictability also creates stability for you.

Things really settled down in terms of conflict between my ex and I once the custody stuff was decided on and resolved. My kids have adjusted and now know that weekdays are with mom, weekends with dad, and there is predictability in their lives.

THAT is your greatest goal regardless of what outcome you get.

A BS in grief wishes and wishes for their spouse to return. I have heard that the greatest threat to recovery is a BS 6 months into it since that's when we process the fact that our cheating spouse is back in our lives and we got what we wanted, but is it truly what we want?

I saw my own mother go through this with my dad. He wanted to reconcile but she was so filled with anger that even I as a kid was thinking that D might be preferable to living through years of indirect digs at my dad and constant tension between them.

The hard work is really just starting if he ever wakes up. In many ways, not that I'm endorsing it, divorce is easier since once your feelings for your spouse disappear you see them more for their flaws than their good traits and part of you wishes you had never met them or had them in your life.

The really interesting place to be is in a state of indifference towards your ex spouse. That's been interesting just for the sake of seeing where you once were and where you are today.

I don't know anything about recovery since I never experienced it, but I do know that a person goes through a healing process and I'm sure that recovery has to be really hard a few months into it as a BS. Anger must be a real best to deal with in recovery.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 01/02/10 05:06 PM
helpthe- you know what? the first time you posted on my thread I was a bit angry. I don't remember exactly what you said that made me so angry(I re-read what you wrote and can't remember HMMMM) but to me it felt like you were defending my WH. I looked it over a few times and felt that what you were doing was transferring your own feelings from your sitch on to me. I chose not to respond to your post and felt that it was good practice at not using AO. I knew you were trying to help and I value hearing from both sides of the coin(and that others reading my thread may need your advice). I no longer hold any anger towards what you wrote. The first time you wrote on this thread was Dec16th. That was 2 days before I asked my WH to leave. I was going through a lot of feelings of doubt and fear. Maybe that's why your post affected me then and does not seem to now.

Maybe it is because I was also transferring things from my own life on to you. There are many people in my life who believe that I shouldn't even try to save my M. That "once a cheater, always a cheater." I tell them that that isn't necessarily true and that I have come on here and found people who have made it through to the other side where I hope to be someday. I also tell them that this place will help me get there even if my WH NEVER comes out of this fog and comes home. I am an optimist. I also tend to analyze things A LOT. I feel like that is the only way to make MYSELF better.

I have this feeling that your WXW(although as has been pointed out before, if she is an X she is no longer W) did not handle the visitations with your children as you had hoped and you felt extreme pain from that. My WH is the wayward one and although I know he loves our sons very much, he is also very foggy. He would leave our home to hang out with her. He would take vacation days, and spend them with her. He would send them upstairs to play so he could call her without interruption(I was taping him while I was at work). These are actions of a Wayward and he was not thinking like he normally did. Even now, he wrote them an email 3 days ago apologizing for not calling them because he was playing PSP and missed the time.

Don't get me wrong, my WH LOVES our boys very much but right now his addiction and his selfish behaviours to get his fix is his number one priority. On Sunday, he was supposed to visit with them and said that he had something else to do. Well, IMHO if he really missed them, he would have JUMPED at any opportunity to visit with them, but he had seen them 2 days in a row(laugh).

He was an AMAZING Daddy. He played with them whenever he could and he always tucked them in to bed. They were his world and they knew it. Now he is a part-time father. Not just by the amount of time he spends with them but also because of the quality of that time and what he does with them. My hopes is that will change but if not, I am going to be here to pick up the slack.

In the beginning I was the one saying, "Boys do you want to call Daddy?" "How about an email?" and then I realized that I have always done that for him. I had been the one who nudged them together because I didn't want my kids to miss out and I didn't want my WH to regret not spending enough time with our kids. It is not my responsibility any more. He doesn't get that right any more since he decided to leave me. My boys will know that Mommy is always going to be there for them and I am going to fill in the gaps left behind by his departure(although I can never fully replace him in their eyes).

As far as my addiction to this place, I am okay with it. I said that I analyze things and try to learn to make myself in to a different person. I am interested in the workings of the world and what makes people tick. This place is a HEALTHY addiction in my POV. I am learning and growing and helping others. It makes me feel better about who I am and who I want to become. It is part of my Plan B to work on myself and in a strange way, this is part of it.

Thanx again for your POV helpthelostdads, people need both sides of the coin to understand and grow.
Originally Posted By: Neak
Was it really keeping you stuck, or was it helping you reach the point where you could let go and move on to the next level of healing?

I know for me, the first couple years the A was all I could think about anyway, and spending plenty of time on MB channeled the thinking (and thinking and thinking and thinking) that I would have been doing anyway, into constructive channels.

Eventually there came I time when I didn't need MB for me, at least not for anything A-related.

Maybe there are people who are truly stuck, but I suspect that many who feel as if they got stuck were just processing their feelings till they reached a point they could progress. Healing goes through so many levels, and each must be mastered before going on to the next.


I agree about keeping the healthy thinking going as Neak says and as Scotland says also its a good adiction.
HTLDs I understand what you are saying about holding on and how time heals wounds. I pray you are healing.
scotland,

Giving up MB isn't something in the cards right now for you and may never be. I merely offered that you may need a break down the road in your healing. There are some legends from these boards who no longer post very often, but are still held in high regard (chrisner and mortarman come to mind).

My advice to you is certainly based on my own experience, but I merely wish to focus some attention to the plight of the kids. I know that it's tough to make decisions about them in all of this or keep a level head. Hind sight has provided me with perspective to see some of the mistakes I and my ex made.

The other big message I wanted to pass to you is simply that you will be ok no matter what the outcome of your ordeal. Divorce stinks, if it goes down that path, but there is life after it.

Finally, I read on here that a WXW is a term for an XW who is still wayward. Considering it's been 4 years and no acknowledgement over what's was done, the extent of it, and the circumstances of how it was done (multiple men while I was deployed), followed by trying to get me out of the kids' lives, then yes, she's still wayward.
Originally Posted By: helpthelostdads

On another note: MB is good and it is bad. MB can keep you stuck. You will get to a point in your healing where you should really step away for a bit of time before coming back.
.


I think this might have been your experience, but in my experience, helping others kept my mind off my own misery and helped my healing. If I am helping others then I am not so focused on SELF, but am focused on helping others. In the process of helping others, I learned this program inside and out and was able to use those learnings to create a great marriage.

There is a huge difference, IMO, in coming here and helping others and talking your own problem to death. The latter can be destructive and unproductive, IMO. I see that folks who do the latter really DO stay stuck.

Reading the stories of others doesn't make me SAD, it makes me GLAD because I see the opportunity and know they are in the right place. I view this as a place of HOPE and OPPORTUNITY, not a place of sadness and loss. The loss has already taken place, this place helps them RECOVER the loss. When you see such success stories day after day, it is very fulfilling.
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Reading the stories of others doesn't make me SAD, it makes me GLAD because I see the opportunity and know they are in the right place. I view this as a place of HOPE and OPPORTUNITY, not a place of sadness and loss. The loss has already taken place, this place helps them RECOVER the loss. When you see such success stories day after day, it is very fulfilling.


I feel like I am on a battlefield and even though I am not a skilled surgeon I can stop some of the bleeding if I instill hope for the people interested in personal growth..

I am assuming of course that marriage is an institution that gives us a chance to grow. At least thats how I understand it.

I agree with that Mel..
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 01/03/10 10:54 PM
I understand what you are saying HTLD. I know that there may come a time when I may want to and even NEED to step back from here but for right now I am happy doing what I am. I feel like there is a lot to learn about marriage, relationships and people through these boards. Even if my sitch turns out to end in a Plan D, then I will deal with that at that time, and I am sure there will be plenty of help on here as well. I read the posts to see that my sitch isn't all that special.

Before I found MB, I had been researching on the internet on what to do and I felt very HOPELESS. Then came that fateful day when I googled "How to SURVIVE an affair." This site was at the TOP that day. It felt like my prayers had been answered. THIS was the place to help me. I know that it may NOT turn out the way I hope but I also know that either way I WILL BE OKAY. I woke up this morning with the song "I WILL SURVIVE." running through my head. My co-workers have commented that they are starting to see a little bit of me returning. I am not as sad as I was and for me that's better. I am discovering myself more and I am making plans for me first. I am choosing to LIVE my life.

Helping others is something I have always liked about myself and I have always been taught that the best way to learn something is to teach it. I am helping whenever I can with whomever I can because I remember what it felt like when that first person reached out there hand to help me and I took it. Without the people who replied to me in some of my darkest hours I would not be where I am in my process today.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 01/03/10 11:01 PM
Now as far as what is going on in my sitch. This is what happened today. WH was coming to get the kids at 9am. He called DS9 at 850 and said he was on his way. Then DS9 looked at me and said "OK." and then hung up

DS9 said, "Mommy I know the answer will be no. And daddy knows the answer will be no." I said, "DS9 just tell me." and he said "Daddy wants to know if you want a ride to work." I said, "Buddy you know Daddy can't pass messages." Then WH was here. He stayed outside for a while. The kids got ready and left. I went outside and noticed WH had shoveled the walkway. I actually missed my bus and started walking to work in a BLIZZARD. I walked for 1/2 an hour and then decided to call a cab. I am so stubborn hehehehehehe.

It made me feel GOOD though. I KNOW I don't need anyone I CAN DO THIS.

It is the same feeling that I had when I was 20 and didn't talk to my parents for a year and realized that I could make it on my own(although I had WH to lean on). I guess I had to realize that I don't NEED ANYONE(except you guys right now hehehehehe)

your doing awesome..... a true inspiration for everyone. Your personal growth is doing quite well at this stage. Scot you just have to keep saying you know you can you know you can.... just like the little engine that could.... hehe
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 01/04/10 01:42 AM
Thank You. That is what I am saying over and over again. I can't believe how strong I am becoming on my own. I miss WH terribly but it is not the be all and end all of my existence. Instead I am trying to grow in to a person I can be truly happy to be. I thought I needed to recapture the strength I had before, but now I realize that it isn't the same as before, it is DIFFERENT and in so, it is BETTER.

My strength before I had children was all out of insecurities and "pretending". The strength I am finding now is REAL and EMPOWERING. I do have bad moments where I think about what I want and what I am doing, but then I remember that I felt that way in Plan A too but I have a time limit. Until that time limit is reached, I STICK WITH PLAN.

Would it have been easier to get a ride? Of course it would. Would it have taught me anything? Nope. It would have taught my WH that my boundaries are easily moved and it would have taught my children that affairs have no consequences. They may have even started accepting this fantasy as a REALITY and that would have done a disservice to the WORLD.
@Scotland,

I never had to go to Plan B. Thank you for showing me that I need to learn to be a stronger and better man, just as if I had.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 01/04/10 02:20 AM
AHHHHHHH a little venting has to be done right now. Putting the kids to bed and DS9 says, "daddy said that he is going to ask IMs about keeping us over on Saturday night because it is too much gas to come back and forth Saturday and then Sunday." I replied, although I really shouldn't have. I said, "Hunny that isn't ok with me because I don't want you sleeping in OW house. If Daddy had some place else to take you I would be okay with it.

That is not the only feelings I am feeling though. I am feeling that it wasn't a problem how far away she lived when he went to her house to carry on the affair all these months/years. He never had a problem with the traveling time and money it was costing US then. The feelings and knowledge that my children would sleep in that POSOW's house drives me BATTY.

I of course am going to tell the IMs that this is not okay with me. I don't know if WH knows this or not but he COULD do it. We don't have a custody arrangement signed yet so he really could. But what could I do? I could also keep them the next time he is supposed to get them and that would hurt who? the kids.

Thanx for the vent laugh
Posted By: Neak Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 01/04/10 06:06 AM
I don't think that was a bad thing to say at all.

Your DS needs to know that it's NOT OK with you to expose him to the skank. Even if his dad ends up doing just that, he needs to hear from the sane parent in his life that taking kids around trampy garden utensils is wrong.

And his talking to you was probably much less about carrying messages than DS feeling a sick lump in his gut telling him it would be horrible, and hoping to have that validated by you.

Which you did, and bravo!
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 01/04/10 01:46 PM
I also think you did well. You listened and responded to his feelings and told him, as a parent, why you were NOT ok with that situation. If you had gone into "well he certainly didn't have problems with the gas money all the other times he was seeing OW..."....well THAT would have been inappropriate. But you knew that which is why you didn't go there. Instead, you kept it focused on son's question and your very proper parental response.

You did great!
Posted By: KaylaAndy Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 01/04/10 02:26 PM
You did great! You separated the issue about staying over night with their father - which in a son's eyes is great - to staying over night with OW. They will see clearly that you don't object to them being with their father, only her.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 01/04/10 03:27 PM
Thanx. I knew that I responded correctly. This morning I woke up and I was still mad about it. I am securely in MAD today. I know this is part of it so it doesn't scare me. I have been walking around the house yelling at things(don't worry the kids are at school). I even flicked the picture of WH that I have on my fridge.

It's the little things that drive me crazy and make me angry. That's why it is good that I don't communicate with him so I don't have to deal with it daily.

I am a tiny bit glad that WH told DS9 and DS9 told me so that I had a heads up and could think of my response to IMs without giving them any mad talk.

I am trying very hard not to talk to them about the feelings behind my decisions so they won't be involved in the drama of it.

MAD MAD MAD day today so I am gonna have to find something to do to make me happier. It is still SNOWING outside today and will be until Wednesday. There has already been a foot and a half just yesterday. Maybe I will take my camera out and get some good winter pictures. The kids are loving it too. OHHHHH Winter in Canada laugh
Posted By: Dealan-de Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 01/04/10 03:37 PM
Please post your pictures of this stuff called "snow."

I'd LOVE to see them. The last time we got this "snow" stuff in this city was in 1989.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 01/04/10 03:59 PM
Okay so I figured out the response that I am going to give the Ims about the kids sleeping over on Saturday night.

I am going to say, "I am NOT okay with them spending the night at OW house. If there was some other place he could take them where they weren't exposed to OW then I would be okay with it. I also will tell them that I could find a sitter to take the children on Saturday so he only has to make the one trip."

I think that should be a good response. laugh
Posted By: not2fun Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 01/04/10 04:30 PM
Scotty,

First off let me tell you I am in wonder of your strength during Plan B. I haven't chimed in much because Plan B isn't my specialty, but you are doing GREAT!!

I wouldn't suggest finding a babysitter though. It is good to reiterate your boundaries on exposing the kids to OW, but it is not your job to make this any easier on him. Let HIM find an alternative solution. This is how it would be in a divorce. He'll figure it out.....he's a big boy, even if he's a foggy one.... grin

Keep plugging along sweetie. You are doing marvelous!!!

Not2fun
Posted By: Scotland Re: Umm I installed a keylogger and....... - 01/04/10 04:59 PM
It doesn't always feel like I am doing marvelous. I read other people's threads(older ones and people who went through this too) and I see how some of them had contact to their WS. I am trying my best to keep absolutely dark and it is what part of Plan B is. There are times where it would be easier to just talk to WH and tell him the things that are bugging me about what he is doing but that be a MAJOR LB and would not be good at all. That's what keeps me DARK AS NIGHT. I can't trust myself to not LB him with what I am feeling right now.

I know that there would be a chance that if I did NOTHING(not follow MB) that we could have gotten back together. We would not have been happy and eventually one of us would have decided that this wasn't working anymore. But with MB I know that there is a chance. It might be a slim chance and it is GOING to be HARD WORK if we get there. I just want to be able to say that I DID MY BEST.

I hate when I feel like this but I know that it is part of the process. I realize that I feel like this right after I hear anything about WH or he does something or says something that makes it harder on me. I guess this is teaching me about patience and how not to LB. I am going to buy the LB book and read that too. I need to know as much about who I am and who I want to be to be happy. Looking inside myself, I know that I am NOT a bad person. There are things that I don't know about how to be who I want so I have to learn as much as I can. Either way I will learn from this and I WILL BE BETTER.

Wow this SUCKS.
Two things, Scotland, from Neak's Maternal Unit: (1) I'm glad somebody else already said my first reaction to the transportation "problem"--if he wants to have them brought to him, you shouldn't be the one footing the expense of it. I'm pretty much positive that he'd never pay it for you, if the situation was reversed. (2) Staying dark to avoid LBs is an excellent idea. It's the main reason I severely limit my interactions with my oldest adopted grandson (16 years and 2 days old). If you've read Neak's stor