WXH and I are divorced....it was final end of November. He bought me out of the house last month and ds10 and I have moved to a new house. If you remember I discovered he was having an affair with a co-worker 20 years younger than him and subsequently discovered he had had an affair with my then 19 year old cousin 7 years prior. I went immediately to plan D. What do you make of this conversation he and I had via text yesterday?

WXH: I am off on Friday. Can I have ds10 early that morning or Thursday evening?
SW: Friday morning probably. What are your plans?
WXH: No real plans yet, my brother is coming by that morning so I thought it would be nice for ds10 to see him. Maybe a float trip after that. Are you gonna buy a PS3?
SW: I don�t know. He really needs a computer.

30 minutes later

WXH: How are you?
SW: Surviving. You?
WHX: Same�
SW: Is it how you thot it would be?
WXH: Not really. U?
SW: No. Sure not the way I wanted my life to be at this point.
WHX: Too bad we could not have been nicer to each other. It would have been much less stress on everyone plus we would have had everything paid for in a couple of years. I guess it is just a lesson in life at this point.
SW: Lessons in lives that are more than half over
WHX: Yep, pretty sad. Live the rest to the fullest.
SW: I think that is what got u in trouble to begin with.
WXH: LOL I just didn�t want to argue. It sucked and snowballed everything else.
SW: I just wanted to be appreciated. Nothing I ever did was good enough 4 you.
WXH: Sorry. I felt the same way. Maybe we should have really talked more. Oh well�. (1:30 p.m.)

7:30 p.m.
WXH: Did you get the deposit we had with gas company?
SW: No. Why?
WXH: I had to pay $110 deposit.
SW: Yep. I had to pay deposits too. Divorce is expensive. In all ways.

Thank you.

SW, you filed for and were granted a divorce. Be done with it.

I'm not schoolbus, but your wxh is saying, "Dang I almost had it made! Everything paid for, complacent wife, all the chicks I could bang for a buck, then you had to get all nosey and ruin it. If I'm nice to you, can I get my money back?"

LOL...You made me laugh. You are right though. I don't understand him, but guess I don't need to any more.

I am not SB.
This is what I got out of it.

"poor poor pitiful me"
Underappreciated entitled wayward crap.

Do NOT engage.
His head is filled with fluff and goose feathers.

And, I read ZERO insight on his part.

I too am not SB. What I was thinking about when I was reading this was, what DOES it matter to you? If you found out that your WH DID want to get back together, would YOU? That is the part I found interesting. The fact that it seemed to matter to you. I don't see anything in WH's texts that would change the fact that he is wayward. Like Pep said, I read, "Poor Poor Me" syndrome.

No. I wouldn't. I don't want him back. I guess I want to understand what goes on in his mind....but everytime I try to figure it out I just end up getting enraged and all in turmoil. You will notice he makes it sound like we got divorced because we argued. Um, no. I've told him before when he says stuff like this.....'The arguing I was used to...it was you having sex with others that was too much for me.' He is crazy in the head and I am MUCH better with no contact.

Today he picked ds10 up....I had ds wait in the driveway...and when I saw his truck approaching I said good bye to ds and went in the house. LOVE it when I can dodge him that way...well, then I'll be if I don't come out of the gas station and there he is getting gas parked next to my car.

What I feel is that he wants to be friendly with me. I think he misses me a lot....we got into another big texting war last night....he told me he asked me to stop the divorce but I wouldn't. I told him he did nothing to stop it...his words meant nothing and he showed no action that said he wanted to stop. So yeah, he is wayward...and I woke up this morning so mad at myself for letting myself try to reason with him last night. I have to quit talking to him about our failed marriage. It is pointless. Very hard to move on though. I guess I would like him to say, 'SW, you were a good wife and I just screwed it all up. I am sorry.' And honestly he HAS said, "I am really sorry for all that (meaning the adultery)" So yeah, I just need to take that as he best I"m ever gonna get out of him and move on.

I was thinking about you this morning and what I wrote. I hope you didn't think that I was implying that you wanted your XWH back, I just was asking if there were still feelings there. I know that you say all of the time that you don't want to take him back so I was wondering why you were wondering about the texts. I think you have cleared that up. I too believe that you may NEVER get that from your XWH but you do KNOW it right? I am SURE that you were a GREAT wife and I know that you are a great mom.

WXH: I am off on Friday. Can I have ds10 early that morning or Thursday evening?
SW: Friday morning probably. What are your plans?
WXH: No real plans yet, my brother is coming by that morning so I thought it would be nice for ds10 to see him. Maybe a float trip after that. Are you gonna buy a PS3? The PS3 comment is him fishing to see if HE is going to have to shell out the money or if you are going to do it yourself.
SW: I don�t know. He really needs a computer.

30 minutes later

WXH: How are you? I am feeling very sad, lonely, and trying to figure out why I screwed my life up...I think I might have a chance with you if I am gentle and sad sounding.
SW: Surviving. You?
WHX: Same� Please ask me what I mean by this. I don't even really know what I mean by this, but maybe if you ask me, lead me, I might be able to pull my head out of my own butt and figure it out. I always leaned on you for that, and now you are not here to do things for me.
SW: Is it how you thot it would be?
WXH: Not really. U? I'm actually worried that you are happier than I want you to be. I am hoping you are miserable, that you miss me, and that the next words out of your mouth might be something along the lines of asking me to consider a reconciliation, although I don't even know what that might mean.
SW: No. Sure not the way I wanted my life to be at this point.
WHX: Too bad we could not have been nicer to each other. I still am not ready to openly accept that my own behavior is what led to our divorce. I think it might sound more acceptable to my own ears if I say that we needed to be nicer to each other, because to openly confess that I was completely responsible for the affair behaviors would mean that I would have to accept that I am blameworthy and slimy. I can't go there. It would kill my ego and I am nowhere near ready for that. Besides, it just sounds so much more "new age" and "modern" to say we were both to blame - and I am still trying to be "young and cool" which is what got me here in the first place...only I can't go there yet....crap. It would have been much less stress on everyone plus we would have had everything paid for in a couple of years. I wish I wouldn't have these kinds of thoughts, because it ruins the "happiness" I thought I would have. This reality gig stinks. Actually, I would really like it if you would pick up on my hints that I have been thinking about you here lately, and thinking that I might have been to blame, and don't you really miss ME???? It would be good if YOU would admit this, and it would make things easier if I didn't have to work to make things right. I guess it is just a lesson in life at this point. Have you thought about this too?
SW: Lessons in lives that are more than half over YOU SAY THAT YOU DID PICK UP ON THE HINTS, BUT YOU ARE STILL POINTING OUT THAT HE IS 50 PLUS YEARS OLD AND HASN'T STRAIGHTENED HIMSLEF OUT YET.
WHX: Yep, pretty sad. Live the rest to the fullest. OUCH, he says. So you don't want me back. That hurt.
SW: I think that is what got u in trouble to begin with.
WXH: LOL I just didn�t want to argue. What "sucked" was that once I got caught it created much more arguing. It seemed easier at the time to just divorce...to just not argue it all out...there seemed too much to overcome that I could not argue it all out. I was defeated. It sucked and snowballed everything else. The snowball was that I had created a mess that got larger and larger, and I could no longer see a way out. I abandoned ship.
SW: I just wanted to be appreciated. Nothing I ever did was good enough 4 you. YOU MISSED HIS POINT. HE WAS CONFESSING DEFEAT...YOU WENT OFF ON ANOTHER TACK, NOT REALIZING WHERE HIS THOUGHTS HAD GONE.
WXH: Sorry. I felt the same way. Maybe we should have really talked more. He sees the miss - and knows that the work that is to be done really is a mountain, and he sighs... Oh well�. (1:30 p.m.)

7:30 p.m.
WXH: Did you get the deposit we had with gas company? He had to write a check, so he is looking to understand what happened...your explanation was PERFECT.
SW: No. Why?
WXH: I had to pay $110 deposit.
SW: Yep. I had to pay deposits too. Divorce is expensive. In all ways.

Thanks SB. I was so happy to come home and see your analysis....it actually came at the perfect time. I went to pick ds10 up at WXH's this evening at 6:00. He knew I was coming...I even called him when I was 5 minutes away and asked him to have ds ready. I get there and not only is POSOW THERE (at what was MY house 3 weeks ago) but she is sitting in the driveway watching the kids with fireworks. I had been invited to a cook out across the street from my old house...and when I saw her sitting in the driveway, I pulled into the neighbors driveway instead. I called XWH, who could see me, and when he answered as he stood in the driveway I said, 'I can't believe you have the nerve to have that homewrecking whore sitting in my driveway when I come to get ds10.' Well, he went off on my wording choice...'not YOUR house.'.....and then ds came out of the neighbors to greet me.....so I hung up. I had ds go get his back from his dad's and I stayed in the neighbors driveway...I was so mad, so upset....I wanted to drive my car over there and run over her. Instead I stood there across the street and stared at her...and in a few minutes she got up and went in the house. I went in my neighbors where there were a ton of people and tried to enjoy the evening.

It was horrible. How am I going to do this? How am I going to drop ds off and wonder every time if she will be there? How can I do this? And then on the way home, even though HOURS had passed....I said WAY to much to ds and NONE of this is his fault and he doesn't deserve to have his mother melt down about it in front of him.

I am freaked out totally....I want to kill them both. I hate them.

What is WRONG with me? I don't WANT him. I know he is no good. I know I am better off alone than with him. So what then? It feels like he has won somehow...the neighbors are polite to him....but invited ME over for the cook out---not him---but he had the nerve to walk over there and chat them up before I got there.....they didn't invite him in or to eat even though at that moment they thought I wasn't going to come. I made a last minute decision to stay when I saw her in the driveway. I am rambling I know...I don't know why though it feels like he has won and I've lost! He has our house, the big job, and a young girlfriend! And my son doesn't even hate her like I want him to! I just feel like screaming.

I have got to get hold of myself.

It's OK, SW. It's really OK. They just got to you. Just remember -- you're doing what you're suppose to be doing. They aren't. OW in the driveway is just to bait you. Too bad the neighbors didn't stop by and chat up what an asset to the neighborhood YOU are. OW is trash and everyone knows it. WH just doesn't want to be alone. Poor, pitiful BROKE Mr. SW.

Here is the thing HH....she is of course IMMORAL...and I guess that makes her trash. But really she is not what I would describe as trashy. She is young and attractive and has a college education and a good job. She is 25 years old! Ok, let me think....those things do not negate the fact that she was part and party to the destruction of two families. They deserve each other. If only I didn't have to send my ds to spend time with them! I know I could get over it much faster if I never had to see them or speak to them.

And I am not sure they were trying to bait me....maybe....but with XH it is more that he is just CLUELESS that life will not go on like nothing is wrong! Ok, now I am thinking he DID try to bait me! And I fell for it! Well, they went in the house and then left shortly afterwards....guess they felt shunned by the neighborhood embracing SW and not them. Later when it was dark I had to run to the store and JUST as I came back they were leaving...in seperate cars but at the same time....going to her place I guess. I had parked on the street and the neighborhood was FULL of kids and fireworks going off and I just stood next to my car door as they both drove right past me. She didn't even look at me....I wanted to smash her window in or scream out WHORE!!!!! I have to let this go!

SW,

I have to see the OW in my sitch all the time. It is an unfortunate fact, but I have had to come to the point where I live with it.

I have figured out that humor is the best way for me to deal with it. Yep - seems counter-intuitive, but it has worked over time for me.

I see her in the local store? "Clean up on aisle 7. Bring the hazardous waste team."

I see her on Main Street? "Sl&* alert! Please put out an all points bulletin, bring your husbands in off the streets, and be sure to lock down any married men."

I see her driving in her car? "Oh no! She's out trawling again! Notify the local Trawl Patrol and be sure the local TV channels put up the banners and maps, so married women everywhere will be able to track her movements and protect their men!"


I think of new ones all the time.



They definitely baited you. Next time - you walk right up to her, stare into her face until your DS is out of earshot. Then say nothing until you are completely ready to leave. Make sure nobody can hear you, and say:

"Oh, I had to check closely.. you must be her twin....I figure there's so much crap they had to start a second pile."

Then go back to your car and leave.

SB

((SW))
My ex baits me too. I have definately gotten better at my responses in front of him haha. We have a similar story at the stand point of the home and everything. He got the house and then lost it. All because his ego wouldnt give it to me, he had to have it. I feel like it if I cant have it, you wont either. I now have to see him and OW when they pick up kids. Only comfort I have is, I know hes not happy. They didnt change their ways for the OW, they are still renters. We didnt make them that way. I dont want mine back either. I know that it would only be hurt. However I have a text message where he admitted what he did was wrong, and I have it saved, just in case he never says it again. I still cry at our songs, and 90% of the time, I cry after dropping the kids. We loved with our whole hearts, and it was meant to be forever. THey were the ones that dropped out, we are just trying to catch up.

{{{{{SW}}}}}},

I am so very, very sorry for that. Yeah, waywards are SCUM!!!! It was definately a setup, whether it was intentional or not.

Next, time hold that BEAUTIFUL head of yours HIGH, and stick that CHEST out...and smile....KNOWING that YOU my dear are worth so much MORE than the two of them put together. And smile because YOU have a secret.....

the secret is there is NO WAY in HE77 that relationship will ever be as full-filling as they truly desire.....EVER.....

Not

SW,

This is something BW's have to deal with that BH's almost never do. If an OM rubbed it in a BH's face like that, there would be violence, and perhaps a toe tag in somebody's immediate future.

You get a {{{{{SW}}}} from me, because I can't imagine ever being able to handle the situation like you did. Torture ain't a strong enough word for it. Hang in there.

I think I could deal with it easier if the marriage had recovered. I remember when my best friend's WH was waffling between my friend and the OW....I remember my friend saying she didn't want the OH to 'win.' I thot that was crazy because he was nothing to 'win.' Now I understand though...it does feel like she and he have won.

After ds went to sleep I cried for a long time. So I woke up with swollen eyes, but went on to services this morning. The lesson was about Christian men and how they should treat their wives...I had studied the lesson ahead of time, but it REALLY affectd me this morning, realizing that I never had that with him. He was never a good husband and that is the truth. I dont really feel like so many of you do that he turned alien....he was never right for me. So I think part of why I am so mad is that I put up with SOOOOO much trying to do the right thing and then when I'm 44 years old he puts me in the position where I CAN'T put up with him anymore.

So...see I can't get this straight in my head. He was a terrible husband, but he was MY husband. The house was just a house, but it was MY house. My son is MY son and I don't want him exposed to the homewrecker that took that from me. And yes I am the one that divorced him, but I wouldn't have if he had not been sleeping with her.

I might have to plan B my old neighbor until I can get a handle on myself. Ugh.

Yes, I was seeing a man for a few months...and XWH tried to start a physical fight with him in my driveway. XWH FORCED the confrontation, he forced the situation where my son was introduced to this man before I wanted to do so. Not only was I divorced from WH, but this man I was seeing had NOTHING to do with our divorce. I didn't even meet him until after the divorce was final. So you would think WH would know how it feels...and how much worse it feels when SHE is the one who was having the affair with my then husband.

I was just getting on to post this to you. I was thinking the same thing when I studied yesterday. The point was brought out that "weaker vessel" is not meant to mean WEAK but maybe more like a piece of fine china, that you protect from damaging.

I am dreading next week's lesson too.....I am just too raw to study on how to be a good Christian wife.

But yes, I was never treated like a piece of china that is for sure. I was thinking today that his cruelty to me is unbelievable really. My cousin, when he was 37 and she was 19, lying about it for 7 years....I had the RIGHT to divorce him when that happened---7 mores years of my life gone in a lie...and then the affair with the 24 year old...and then starting it BACK up with my cousin who is now married and a mother. And the porn. And how cruel he was to me in word and deed on a daily basis. I guess I worry that they will be happy....but statistics say they won't be. It bugs me to think he would be happy with her while I'm alone BECAUSE of him and her.

Ugh. This just goes round and round in my head. I dont want him, but I am feeling so angry! I should just be happy to be rid of him. I really believe I WOULD be if I didn't have to see him and her and have my son exposed to them both.

I can tell from the way you describe your WH that he is messed up and I know exactly what kind of a mess he is because I have a WH too who is a multiple adulterer and has treated me with the worst possible cruelty, undeserved by me.
So my dear, do not worry, because a person that messed up is not capable of being happy, he can only attract pain...in due time it will manifest.
If I am not mistaken he already told you that things did not turn out the way he hoped. He is already in conflict with reality and thus unhappy.
How long do you think it will last with a 25 year old and him being this stupid? Remember, those OW are wh@res, as soon as the bed excitement stars to wear thin they do not have much more to offer and WH will realize the moster and the trash he is with.
It will take time..maybe not even that much time.

blessing

Thank you. This is very helpful.

I kept this from happening back in June when they went to FL. A week or so ago he asked if he could take him to a waterpark about 4 hours away. I asked him if OW would be there...he said, 'what difference does it make. No one is staying with us.' Well, I basically just didn't say yes...and he dropped it.

Just now I get a text that says, 'I am planning on taking ds10 to waterpark wednesday night. We will be up there until Saturday. Do you want me to bring him back Saturday night or can I have him through Sunday?'

I texted back 'Will OW be there?'

No reply yet. What should I do? Should I try to stop this? Should I just let it go? Admit defeat that he is going to have OW in my son's life?

OW will be in your son's life as long as she is part of your ex's life.

Take a deep breath...

Caring about this stuff is normal. You are still mourning the death of all the dreams that you had with this man. You were married to this man for a long time. Your divorce has not been final long. Everything takes time. It does get better. You do need less contact with him though. Keep your conversations strictly related to your son. Stop rehashing the past. Leave the past where it belongs. The nice chit-chat and fighting over the OW feeds his ego and will set you back in your personal recovery. My divorce was final 11/09. Less contact for you is best. Check out this from Dr. Harley's Q&A regarding divorced couples that can't seem to let go:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5035b_qa.html

STillstanding,

I enjoyed reading that link...it was very helpful for me too. I'm trying to look at it as a death.

I will read the link....haven't yet. It isn't that I can't let go of WXH. I don't want my son around him with his adultery partner....especially on vacations. I responded via text that since she is going the answer is no. He said his lawyer said he could take him and it wasn't considered 'overnight with opposite sex' since they are getting seperate rooms. I said 'she (attorney) doesn't make the rules. The answer is no.' He said, 'she knows the law and we are prepared to file a court order.' I said, 'the answer is no,' After that no further text. Talked to my X-neighbor a few minutes later and OW was there at XH's house while he was texting me that. Sooo....I am sure when she got to his house she started pushing to finalize their plans....they want to leave Wednesday after work and need to get rooms. (XH mentioned that when he got the confirmation to the room he would tell me where it is so that tells me they don't have rooms yet) His language went from a week ago asking if he could take ds to today 'telling' me he was taking him. I am sure OW is telling him what to do....XH has NEVER 'told' me what he would do with ds. Never. He isn't that kind of involved decisive father.

Anyway, I was very in control today and tonight though. I got to do a 'do over' of last night and be controlled. XH was suppose to bring ds home at 8. I was on my way home to be there when neighbor (x neighbor) calls me and says, 'are you coming to get your ds from XH?' I said, 'no he brings him to me.' She said, 'why dont you come get him and have a beer and get in the pool.' Apparently they had asked if ds could come swimming and XH said no....OW's 5 year old was there and so XH wanted ds to stay and entertain him. Neighbor was annoyed....so anyway, I called XH and said, 'hey I am in town I will stop and pick up ds.' He sounds nervous and says, 'ok. Um, OW and her ds are here.' I said, 'I'll park in neighbor's driveway...just send ds over there. And thanks for the warning.' He said, 'you're welcome.' Well, I get there and guess what? OW is NOT in the driveway this time. Neither is her son. Hee Hee....So I enjoy my son, my friends, the pool, the beer, the fireworks...we sit in the front driveway and watch the kids in the street...before it is even dark OW comes out---XH walks her to her car and she leaves. Has to drive RIGHT past all of us hanging out together. Then it got dark..but twice we saw XH come out the front door and wander around the drive way....I asked my friend (the husband) 'what is he doing?' He says, 'Big house to roam around in all alone.'

LOL....I felt so good that I was so much more in control.

Oh, and I know I might---well probably will----lose if he does file a court order...but I am not going to roll over and make it easy. I asked ds tonight if his dad had mentioned the water park and he said yes. I said, 'unfortunately you can't go because he insist on taking OW.' Ds said his dad had not mentioned that OW was going. I was matter of fact and VERY brief tonight...didn't go on and on like I did last night with ds.

I feel much better. Talked to OW's BXH today for the first time in months....he helped me to see that what I am doing is causing MAJOR conflict for them...and that they are not happy and will not last. She had reached out to him in a similar fashion to what WXH did to me last week.

I know some of you will think I should just let it go. But even if I lose in court, I will know I did what I could to keep ds away from OW for as long as possible. And who knows it might be long enough so that they break up...

Spent probably half an hour talking with my neighbor...the husband....his 12 year old dd was in my lap and much of our discussion was with her....It was awesome to hear a man...a REAL man....discuss temptations....life decisions...telling his dd that what my XH did has affected soooooo many people...not just the two families destroyed...but even THEM, the innocent neighbors....

He talked to her a lot about avoiding men like my XH....and at one point when she left he told me he was going to have a talk with her soon when she is old enough about sex and how he wants her to know from HIS point of view..a MAN's POV...that he wishes he had come to his marriage with her mother as a virgin....it was really awesome....I told him that my XH had told me once sneeringly....that husband neighbor is no different than him (WXH).....Wow. Neighbor and his wife were shocked and disgusted by that. Husband neighbor told me...'he wants me to be in his boat huh?' Neighbor husband is NOT. Human yes. Has even shared with me (in front of his wife) the weakest points of his life and how he came to his wife and said, 'I'm about to have an affair, help me stop it.'


They told me tonight several things....1)they were annoyed that XWH had come over yesterday fishing for an invite with his OW to their cook out...2)their ds10 had gone over to XH's house without permission (which was fine when *I* lived there) and they had a talk with him about it....3)they intend to be polite but have ZERO interest in renewing a relationship with him.

WXH is the type that has to have someone look him in the eyes and say, 'I don't want to be around you AT ALL because of what you have done.' before he gets it. Otherwise he just thinks everyone is fine with what he has done.

Another neighbor was going for a walk when I was there and I got to say hi/bye to her...she hugged me...said it made her ill that ds and I were 'gone.'....she tried to be diplomatic....but it is clear to me that NO ONE is impressed with what XH has done.

Smiling woman, been reading your link.

First hugs to you. It is a battle and trying to decide what will be best for you. Keep your boundaries.

That 25 OW is just enjoying the "game". This was our live and to them it is what the WS will do for them to prove their "love".

They are pushing this vacation because they want to "stir the pot", not do what is best for DS. I am sure a court will say XH has rights but will it be in time for vacation...no.

Because of all the triggers, avoid the neighbors for awhile or invite them over to your place.

I work with both XH and OW. I have told my boss that I need to avoid all meetings with XH unless it is absolutely necessary. He has wrecked his career and is the shadow of the man he was.


Take one day at a time and just wait for the train wreck.

I like Schoolbus suggestions but don't bait the OW. She still wants the drama of the R. Don't give it to her.

SW, you are precious, and worth protecting! What do you think about getting an intermediary, so you can remove yourself from this? The intermediary could remind your son's dad that these trips are not okay, and you wouldn't have to hear about it.

I understand your pain and your anger. I understand your resentment toward your husband and the POSOW. I wanted the OW dead. I wanted my ex to understand what he threw away when he abandoned our marriage. I had to talk about it constantly until I was ready to move on. It was all I really thought about until I grew tired of wallowing in the festering misery that is adultery and divorce.

When you grow tired of this, you will be ready to move on and finish healing.

You can't keep OW out of your son's life anymore than you could keep your husband faithful. You can put up roadblocks. They will go around them. You can make it difficult. This will drive your ex and OW together against you. Once you stop caring and being such an active player in this mess, you will allow nature to take its course. You are uniting them in a common cause. Once you lay down your sword against them, they will have to find something else to focus on - like real life.

When you are ready to move on, you will. It takes time and separation from your ex.

It is your choice.

When I was a teenager I got hooked on Harlequin Romance novels and just about any other brand of romance novel too. I got hooked on the "drama" of it all. Something happened between age 21 and 22 for me that made drama totally repulsive.

My hunch is this gal is still hooked on the trashy romance novel. Next time, think of the romance novel cover - size your husband "down" and chortle, if you must respond at all. He just doesn't measure up in the light of day and isn't worth a cell of brain space for you now. You know a little of what she's looking at with life with him. If he wouldn't be faithful and decent to you, there's no way he's going to for her. They get worse with an affair, not better. I have a hunch that this is the root of your fear, that somehow, he'll turn back into the man who won your heart - for them. I promise you he won't and can't. So do what you can to let that fear go.

So if you look at her at all, give her that pitying glance that you'd give a homeless woman with tracks on her arms and few cut lines barely revealed by her bangles because you know that's the level of woman she is, regardless of the shell she has been lucky enough to have been born with.

SW,

You said you were worried he would be "happy".

This really made me think.

What you want is some sort of retribution, or revenge.

A life well-lived is the best revenge, SW.



What you described, with his having his OW out front to bait you, his going over to the neighbor's house to weasel an invitation to a barbeque, and then his wandering aimlessly out front while you and the neighbors are out front chatting???

Think about that!

He is acting like a little kid who hasn't been picked to play in the game, and so he hangs around the playground trying to draw attention to himself!

He has texted you...talking about "times gone by"....trying to raise your ire....trying to bait you....trying to get invited to parties where YOU are....


What do you think he is doing????


He is trying to cheat with you - behind OW's back - while she is right there.

This is a man who gets his jollies from the thrill of cheating. I wasn't much surprised by the porn - he needs a thrill. The thrill is the drama. Not only is the OW a drama queen, SO IS YOUR XWH.

Don't feed the monster.

Stay controlled. Keep your texted replies UNDER 5 WORDS.

And stay off the phone with him. You need to think about a new Plan D - one where you just go to "business only" with him, and cut those strings so YOU can go on with your life.

BTW, the younger OW won't be around much longer if you go to a new plan of no contact. Watch FROM AFAR and see.

I agree. I am willing to bet he has even called you a drama queen. I know mine always did. I bought it too. Now though, being away from him, I have no drama?

I love this expression and I know it is true. I have to let it go. It is hard for me to know though whether this thing with me not wanting to ds to go on vacation with XH and OW is revenge or real concern for ds. I talked to ds about the trip today on the hour long trip to my mom's. I asked him if he understood WHY I don't want him to go. He said yes...we had a long discussion full of 10 year old stuff....like him saying he wanted his dad to take him to the waterpark because he didn't want me to spend all that money...and how he wants ME to buy him a PS3....it was all sort of convuluted....LOL....but finally I got it down to 'will you be devastated that you don't get to go to the waterpark with your dad.' No he says. And went immediately into talking about the PS3 again. He actually said, 'I will be devastated if I don't get a PS3.

And on the way home he told me he wished his dad and I could be friendly like he sees on tv shows of divorced parents....I said, 'has that been the hardest thing for you, your dad and I being on such bad terms?' He said yes....I told him I was sorry and maybe someday we could be friendlier but things were still too raw and fresh right now. I asked him if he ever told his dad that and he said no...I said do you just not feel comfortable talking about things like that with your dad? He said, 'well, if I try he just starts saying bad stuff about you.' I said, 'such as?' Ds10 says, 'oh like how you took too much furniture.'....I said, 'do YOU think I took too much furniture?' Ds10 says, 'no. But mom see...well, I see why dad says that because HIS house is twice as big as ours and so it LOOKS like you took a lot because there is so much empty space there.' This made me smile that my 10 year old has better reasoning skills than his father....so I mentioned to ds that THAT is exactly part of the problem---that his dad is so unreasonable about stuff....and maybe someday it would be better.





I know...it is pathetic actually...My neighbor friends are VERY annoyed by him trying to wedge in...That Saturday afternoon when he came over and chatted them up...he told the husband, 'well, I gotta go, OW is over there alone.' Neighbor husband says, 'Is she a thief?'

Later neighbor wife tells me, 'that was TOTALLY said to try and get an invitation out of us. Not happening.'



He got me on the phone today..I should have refused. He got ds on the phone first and discussed the trip. I heard ds say, 'mom says I can't go because OW is going.' XH says, 'it isn't right what she is doing ds.' Ds says, 'well, dad, I don't really have anything else to say, she doesn't want me to go. Wanna talk to mom?' So he hands me the phone....and XH begins to threaten me saying I am not going by the court order blah blah blah. I said, 'I believe I am honoring the spirit of the order...you aren't taking him on vacation with the woman that broke up ds's family.' He then threatened me...telling me to get ready because he is taking it to court....getting an 'emergency' order...blah blah blah...and it is going to cost more money that what I've got...I said, 'you don't know how much money I've got.' And we had a short conversation....but I said, 'well, I need to go now, I've said all I'm going to about this.'

So I don't know if he is going to file a motion or not....I am thinking long and hard about the whole thing...my mom told me today that she thinks I should let ds go. So I am trying to be 'still' and see if my lawyer contacts me to advise me....I will listen to his counsel...

The other thing is that I went to her parents house yesterday...armed with some stuff I want them to see about my XH. they weren't home and I planned to go back and try to catch them again in the morning....but I am not sure I should now. XH told me today that OW was not even going to be in the same hotel as him...she was going to be with her parents. Well, that is a whole new can of worms. Ds has never met them...I wonder if they know XWH will be up there in the town with them.....Are they approving, tolerating of the relationship now? I can't believe her dad especially would be..and I want the chance to show her dad the stuff I have on XH...I never want them to think XH is some nice guy. I was going to go at it by asking them for their help in dealing with their daughter and my XH trying to involve ds in their 'relationship' and how hard it is for me and ds since we are divorced now because of that relationship. Now I wonder....I think I will be still and see what he does with this latest threat. Also he is threatening to start over with the custody....I am not too worried about that....I don't think he will do all of that. And not sure he would win if he tried. That stuff gets VERY costly...and all for what? So he can go out of town with ds and OW?


So you think me going no contact will hasten their end? OW's BXH and I believe it messes with them when I keep WXH from doing what he and OW want to do. Maybe we are wrong though.

I am feeling a little bit of peace tonight....even though I don't know what will happen. I guess I feel better knowing ds is not THAT excited to go anyway...so if he has to go he will go and I will bring him home and make his life with me the best life possible.

He does call me a drama queen...

I am still trying to decide this morning whether to contact her parents or not. If I do I am going to say, 'Mr. OW's father, I need your help...I understand my X husband is going on vacation with your family this week...My XH wants to take our son and I am very upset by that...and he is threatening to take me back to court over it....just wondered if you could reason with them that it is inappropriate for my son to go...'

I haven't contacted her parents or her for a year...so it isn't as if I've been harrassing anyone...

Should I just wait and see if I hear from my attorney first? I dont' want to make XH so mad that he DOES file something in court if indeed he wasn't going to (even though he threatened).

Hi SW,

I think your being still idea is a good one. If XWH was going to take you to court over this, he would just do it, not threaten to. No waywards want to expose their adultery before a court room. I think the chances that he'd take you to court over this is almost none.

Take SB's great advice. Just go business w/ him. No more than 5 words.

I will go business with him...I always feel much better when I do.

Do you think I should let ds go on the trip or wait and see if XH says any more about it? He is suppose to be leaving tomorrow evening....I don't really want to call him up and say, 'oh, I've changed my mind....' But if my attorney contacts me and advises me to let him go I probably will..

My sister was married to a serial cheater. 27 years. Four kids. He finally left her for one of his affair partners. He is a real POS.

But, she took what she called the "high road" and never "bad talked" her XWH to her kids. And they are the four most morally confused kids I've ever seen.

So, don't beat yourself up too much about talking to your son about his dad. Obviously, you need to choose your words carefully and be in control. But, even if you lose it every now and again, at least you are being real. And honest.

I would not let my son go on a vacation with a family that tore MY family apart!

No. I wouldn't let him go. I totally think your WXH is bluffing. He is a lazy man. Wants to take the easy road. Has already complained about his financial sitch.

Even if he does the completely unexpected, and has his lawyer calls yours, I'd make him go all the way... Let him fork over the court costs, and embarrass himself in front of a courtroom over his adultery.

If he wants to "win" this one, let him pay for it.

Good. Let his calls go to voice mail. And reply to him w/ as few words as possible via email...text messaging might get you sucked into arguing w/ him.

If he leaves you a message saying he called his laywer about the trip. No response is necessary.

If he asks you if he can pick your son up at 8 instead of 9. Reply. "Fine"

Cut the boy (XWH) off from you. Why should he still be able to get his SW fix?

That is too
FUNNY !

Thank you! I have handled myself ok the last few days with ds. Last night when I was trying to get out of him how he feels about the water park trip with his dad...at one point he said, 'so this conversation is about OW?' I said, 'no, it isn't about her at all...other than that is why I don't want you to go....what this conversation is about is how YOU feel about not getting to go. Are you upset by it?' He said no...and he seemed sincere....he basically can take or leave his dad...I reiterated last night that I am NOT trying to keep him from his dad....and that I'd be happy to let his dad take him on vacation...but I just don't want the woman who destroyed our family to be involved in that. He honestly seems ok with my decision....not that a 10 year old's feelings are the deciding factor in this type thing...but I want to make sure he isn't viewing me as a crazy vengeful mom.

Ok, Pep, THAT is hilarious...she IS a thief...didn't think of that until now...LOL

That is what I want to do....make him go all the way if it is so important to him to have his OW around ds for vacation....

Gotta figure out how to handle it with a judge though...want to have a reasonable explanation for why I would not allow it under our custody agreement....guess I could say I am concerned about ds being on overnight trips (even with seperate sleeping quarters) with a woman with such poor morals.

I would have your lawyer argue that you do not want to morally confuse your son. That this woman was the cause of your family's break up and that you think it is asking too much of your son to be be forced to spend time w/ her.

It was priceless and yes she is a thief. Lock up the husbands.

Smiling, stop overthinking this.

You were right the first time.

Say No to vacation with OW. No more explanation to your DS or XH.

Let your XH get an atty but as others have stated he will probably be too lazy or want to pay out the additional money.

Rent some video games for your DS while XH is away, go to a park, plan special time with one of his interests. Don't compete just be the great mother you are.

IMO I would not bring stuff to OW father. If he could not stop the A, he won't be effective in anything but stirring up more DRAMA. OW thrive on this. Don't worry her parents know and most cases can't reason with these self-entitled POS.

Be still, very still. Pull up a chair, grab some popcorn, the karma show will be starting soon.

And what is just as funny is the neighbor husband saying (to all those present at his cook out) 'I don't want him (my Xwh) near my wife.'


Ok. Advice will be taken. Thank you all.

SW,

Their relationship is actually partially thriving because of the drama YOU feed it.

When you go to her parents, it allows the two of them to have:

1. A mutual enemy
2. Something to focus on for a goal
3. A common conversational topic
4. A sense of unitedness and purpose


These same things occur each and every time you add to their drama circus. When you argue with hime, when you fight with her, when you contact her parents, when you say things to your kid that gets back to him/them...all of it.

So, the less contact you have with him/them, the BETTER. Do not feed the dragon, and the fire will burn out.

They will get tired of talking about the times you "used to" bug them...used to call or text...used to fight...used to call her mom and dad.............


And they won't have anything to talk about, to DO. They won't be waiting out in the driveway for you, because YOU AREN'T COMING. They won't be waiting for your texts, because they aren't coming. Get it?

When the drama dries up, THEIR RELATIONSHIP NO LONGER HAS ANY DRAMA THAT IS CENTERED AROUND YOU.

What do you think is the "next drama"???????????


Yep. One that they make on their own. One of them cheats, or one of them gets the ILYBINILWY speech, or something else. But it isn't about YOU.

The relationship - for what it is worth - implodes. Mostly because it contains TWO drama queens, and that's the truth.


Decrease your contact to a virtual Plan B, as much as you possibly can.

Watch those two destroy each other - from AFAR.


SB

Thught a lot about your post above. Talked to OW's BXH last night (we have not talked for months until this vacation crisis). He really wanted me to go to her dad...which I tried to do on Sunday but couldn't find them home. Last night we both figured out the desire to show her dad stuff was more vengence than concern for my ds. I guess my justification was that if her dad hates my WXH enough he will make it miserable for OW/XH. OW's BXH was able to give me alot of insight into what is going on with her and XH....she is definitely driving this train, trying to boss my XH around about our son. And BH says she is a nag. She will pester and pester him about this stuff. I can see for sure that has been what has happened with this waterpark thing...he asked me a week or so ago and I said no. Then on Saturday when she is there at his house he TELLS me he is taking ds. I said no. He called me Monday to tell me if I don't let ds go he is going to take me back to court. It is her pushing this....so I must try and be calm and not give either of them any fuel to say, 'see, she is unreasonable and crazy.'

I didn't hear anything from my attorney yesterday. So I dont know if it is just because XWH's attorney is out of town or if XWH has backed down. I am really nervous about this evening....it is normal visitation..will he try to take ds and go anyway? Should I be at his house at 5:30 per the visitation schedule? Should I NOT go and wait to hear from him and tell him, 'oh I thought you were going on vacation this evening...didn't think you would be in town for visitation.' To take ds off out of town while he has him for Wednesday visitation will be tricky and nervy for him...ds will have no clothes, ds won't be prepared for it, ds will be upset at being caught in the middle..ds has plans for tomorrow night. I don't know what to do and I"m trying to prepare myself for the possibiity that he will just take him tonight.

However, SB your post has really given me pause in general. I HAVE to deal with this vacation thing...I am going to stand my ground on it. However, there will be no more discussion from me on it unless I have to explain it to a judge. I am going to go as dark as possible and try to NOT think about them. It is possible they will destroy themselves...or not...but I have to protect my own sanity and not give them any satisfacation in being upset.

BH did tell me that his XH has NEVER encountered anyone like me...that he knows she is very intimidated by me and furious that I won't back down and roll over on these issues that involve ds. So that is why she is pushing WXH to do SOMETHING to stick it to me...the vacation, or legally, or threatening to take me back to court.

Trying to mentally back away from the situation. If only I can get through this evening without any drama....so nervous about it all.

Nervous as a cat about this evening...anyone have and advice about what I should do? Regular visitation says I am to have ds10 at XH's house at 5:30 and he brings him home at 8:30. But I know he has this vacation planned with OW and is suppose to be leaving after work...The last contact I had with XH was MOnday when he said he was going to get an emergecy hearing and force me to let ds go....

So should I assume he is going to be out of town and just skip visitation and wait and see if he hears from me? Should I show up at his house at 5:30 to leave ds for visitation and see what happens?

Ugh. I don't know what to do.

Were any of these exchanges done by text message? If so, then I would just NOT take DS to visitation and then if WXH files a motion for contempt, you can show the Judge the text and explain that you honestly believed WXH would be leaving for vacation today. Since you didn't give your permission for WXH to take DS out of town, you assumed that the visitation was canceled, since WXH never contacted you again to tell you any differently. I think you'd be okay. The Judge may slap you on the wrist, but I don't see you getting in any trouble for this.

They were by text but I erased them all! Of course HE may keep them because I think he is going to use them as proof he gave me notice...so yeah, I think I will just skip visitation....if he calls me I will just say, 'oh you told me you were going on vacation so I assumed visitation was cancelled.'

Or if you really want to be thoro you can always stay in the car after dropping him off, just to make sure they don't take him with em.

But then again....I wouldn't want to see that destructive family anyway...better to stay home just in case ROFL!

If he calls and insists on having him for tonight I will definitely being going to visit my neighbor across the street for a while...;) And making a show of writing down his tag number on his truck.

MWHAHAHAHAHAA....(evil laugh)

You should have his tag number already. No joke!! You never know what a WS with a psycho OW is capable of doing.

SmilingWoman for confirmation of facts, send him a text

Confirmation of no visitation tonight because of you leaving for vacation?

In that way you have backup that he did or did not respond.

Good luck

Agree with princess meg, judge will only slap on wrist.

Hmmmm.....guess I could do this...but then if he says no he isn't cancelling visitation I will for sure have to take him! Can't plead ignorance then!

I am not ever unreasonable about visitation. I let him go extra at times....so I know I won't be in any serious trouble even IF he actually takes it to court.

You told him DS is not going out of town with OW. The two of you have NOT mutually agreed that there will be an out of town trip for DS.

Therefore, when WXH has made plans to leave town during regular visition times, the logical assumption by any normal person would be that visitation is canceled.

Do not text. Do not contact him. Allow any further contact to be initiated by your EX.

You have made your point clear.

He has no ability at this time to go to a judge and force you to allow the child to go out of town. No judge would hear this motion at this time of day - not for a waterpark trip. That is not an emergency.

Don't call, don't text.

Let them "enjoy" their trip without your son, and you know what that trip will be all about?


You.


Ha.


SB

Thank you. I am so nervous I am sick....I am due to be there in 10 minutes----should have left already to make it in time.

My hope is he went on without ds and has totally forgot this is his scheduled visitation.

So any mean text/call from XWH?

Yep. Two minutes after I was suppose to be there he called my cell and home phone and left messages...tight voiced, 'where are you? You are late for scheduled visitation.' I didn't answer either phone. I sent him an email and said, "I thought you were going <out of town>.

He answers back with this...

<<I was never planning on going to <vacation city> today. I still have the text message where I told you we would go Thursday morning if you would let ds10 spend the night. Since you refused I cancelled my plans and set up a meeting with my lawyer tomorrow.


Why are you not here at my house with ds10 as our degree outlines for Wednesday visitation?>>

I answered back. 'Oh, sorry. I could have sworn you said you were going tonight. I can bring him now.' Which I did. I was 45 minutes late. Which is no big deal.

But he does have me freaked out about going to see his lawyer tomorrow.

At least I messed up THIS vacation for them.

His lawyer will charge him plenty of money. Then the lawyer will ask him if it is really worth it to go to all this trouble for a waterpark trip.

So he sees a lawyer. Big deal. Only somehow I think he is bluffing anyway. Either way, it isn't huge. The lawyer costs him money, it is just another "thing", and in the end, it actually can help DELAY exposure to the OW, not speed it up. You can have your lawyer ask for a delay while the courts review it, ask for psychologists to look at the OW, all kinds of things...lawyers know how to handle it. Stay calm. Let him do the work - and don't overreact. See what he does first.


In the end, he accepted "no" as an answer. No trip.

OW will be whining.

It took him 20 minutes to answer my email. And I just noticed he copied his attorney. It is funny...I have a forwarded email from his attorney to mine from last week about an alimony issue...where she tells my attorney, "I am going on vacation and won't be taking calls or emails until next Wednesday (today)."


BH of OW tells me she will be FURIOUS over this.

Ds came home....an hour late, which didn't surprise me...but I am thinking of sending him an email and saying, 'just as a reminder, ds10 is suppose to be home at 8:30 on Wednesday nights. You brought him home at 10:15 tonight.' Do you think I should since he is documenting and copying is attorney about me being late for drop off today?

Ds said he asked his dad if OW went out of town. XWH says no, she cancelled her plans since no one else was going. And WXH also told ds he was going to take me to court over this issue.

Ds seems unaffected by it....

Now I am really wondering if her parents WERE going out of town with her....hmmmm.....doesnt seem logical that she would cancel on her parents just because he couldn't go.

Hi SM,
DS home safe, you did good.

So what if he goes to atty. There are so many roadblocks that your atty can throw his way while impatient OW will stamp her feet, hold her breath and maybe have a tantrum.

As pepperband says "give her a cookie"
Waywards are dumb

I am really nervous about him going to his attorney---although it is just step one of a looooong process even if he does file something.

Do you all think I should email my attorney this a.m. and give him a heads up? I hate to use billable time in case nothing happens...

No, don't waste your time or your attorney's time on something that MAY or MAY NOT happen. When the issue comes up, if it doesn't, THEN you can deal with it. I'm been in the legal field for many, many years, and trust me, this is not worth getting so worked up about. Your attorney OR his attorney certainly won't. His attorney may fire off a letter to your attorney, but so what. I think SB had a great idea as to the issue of OW and visitation.

Do WH and OW live together? If WH insists on pursuing this, then you could request a home study be done and that would include an investigation of OW and her lifestyles/behaviors. They would probably ask for one for you as well, but that's no biggie, right?

Ok, I sent my attorney an email going over what happened..

>>>Hi attorney,

Just a heads up...XH wanted to take ds10 on vacation to waterpark from Thursday (today) through Sunday with OW...the girl he was having the affair with which caused me to file for divorce.

I said no. So he is threatening me....telling me he is going to take me back to court and redo all the custody/visitation issues. In his email below he says he is going to see his attorney today and he copied attorney....

FTR, I have not told him he could not take ds10 on vacation. I have only said no to taking him on vacation with OW. I do not want to morally confuse ds10. This woman was the cause of ds10's family's break up and I think it is asking too much of him to be be forced to spend time w/ her on vacation as if everything is just fine.

If he was really that concerned about spending vacation time with ds10 he could do so without her. He doesn't ask for that. The only vacations he has asked to take ds10 on have been to FL with OW and to <waterpark> with OW.(He used a week in December and went to NYC with her and another week in June to go to FL with her) And I'm assuming he is still taking off work today and tomorrow, but he hasn't asked to get ds10 those two days---apparently if he can't take him to <vacation> with OW he doesn't want him.


He paid July alimony, but still nothing for June. As a reminder he made the last payment on our house May 1 and refinanced it to his name only May 24th--so the marital home ceased to exist on May 24th. Our buy out agreement stipulated I would be out by June 15 and I did in fact give him the keys June 14th....but that agreement had nothing to do with the judge's order about when XH had to start paying alimony.

And on the personal property he is whining about....he is being totally ridiculous. I certainly did not 'clean the home out of all property.' I left plenty for him and I was as fair as I knew how to be. He would have NEVER agreed on what I could take and so I saw no other way to do it. When he moved out June 09 he took some stuff then....comforter set, sheets, towels, kitchen stuff, the $200 DVR we had, other things he needed to live on his own for a year.

Ok! That is all I will say for now. Let me know if you hear anything.

SW>>>>>

Will someone weigh in and let me know if I sound reasonable or not?

Oh man! I didn't see this until I had already sent the email to attorney! You are right of course and I wish I had waited longer for replies before going on with it! Darn!

Ok, you made me feel better though about it not being a big deal....

And NO they do not live together. The custody agreement stipulates neither of us can have overnight guests of the opposite sex when ds is present. (I would be fine with a home study being done on me btw)

Not sure how she would look 'on paper'. She left her husband and 2 step sons (her BH has full custody of them) after less than 2 years of marriage...taking HER then 4 year old away from the only father he had ever known. She was never married to her son's father. She claims she didn't leave her BH 'for' my husband, but was sleeping with him within weeks of leaving her husband. Don't forget I still have the chats between them where she is saying she will be 'devastated' if he stays with me.

Oh and did I mention she is 25? So how does she look 'on paper'.

Very immature, but based ONLY on what you've written, I don't see anything that would show she would hurt your child physically, or that she would endanger him. That's what a home study would try to uncover. If she's not living with XWH, it's a moot point.

As to the language about overnights, do you REALLY think EWH is abiding by that?

Oh, ds10 would DEFINITELY tell me if she stayed over night. And he only stays over night every other Friday night. Basically 2 nights a month.

No she isn't a danger to him physically...and you are right it is a moot point since they don't live together I guess....but my argument (thanks to someone on here I knew how to word it) is that being with her on vacations causes moral confusion to my son since she is the cause of ds's family being destroyed.

According to my informant at XH's work, he is there today.

Heard nothing from him or my attorney yesterday. Very nervous.....hoping it all goes away. What is the chance his attorney tells him this is not a hill to die on?

Chances are that his atty told him how much this could


COST $$$$$$


and so XWH decides on his own that its not his hill to die on.


Plus, he has figured out that he still owes you back alimony, so that little issue would come out before the judge, and does he really want that outed, too?

Just wait this out. IF his atty writes a letter to your atty, so what? You have a letter in a file. Big woo. The letter police are not coming! What's going to happen? The letter police are going to break into your house in the middle of the night, cart you off, and say, "Ma'am, you have a letter in your file! You have been BAD! You are going to LETTER JAIL!"

Big woo. Letter jail.

I don't know anybody who ever went to letter jail.


And if a judge gets involved, he's going to tell you one of two things:

Don't do this again

or

You probably should work things out better between the two of you.


Yikes - that's really bad to hear, isn't it. THAT - ON TOP OF LETTER JAIL!!!!!


Gee. You need to put on some armor, cuz this is going to hurt!!!!






SB

Thanks for making me smile SB. I don't know why I let him inside my head. I am not as worried about a judge telling me 'don't do this again' (I am prepared for a judge making me let ds go on vacations with OW) as I am XH telling a judge he regrets signing over full custody and agreeing to a very non standard visitation schedule. I would be sick if a judge ordered standard visitation....or gave XH any say over schooling or religion or medical. Right now I have full custody and get to make those decisions on my own.

I don't think that will happen though. I read on another thread this a.m. that judges are not likely to alter a custody/visitation decree absent real abuse or neglect of some kind. Or say I was habitually keeping ds from XH...and I am not doing that at all.

So I think it will be ok. Also, my attorney didn't respond back immediately saying, 'OMG!!! You MUST let ds go on vacation with that homewrecking *hore or you will be in trouble with the judge!' I know I am overthinking it.

Ok, off to live my real life.

Just posting this as a reminder of how my XH bluffs and blusters and then backs down..hoping he will do the same about this custody/vacation with OW thing..

Background: We were in negotiations over him buying me out of the house. The first thing he does is tell me he will reduce my payout if he can't get an appraisal for the amount of the full price offer from the third party. I said no that I will not accept any further reduction in pay out regardless of what the appraisal comes back as. Then he tries to get me to pay half of his closing. I said no. He said, �fine, I�ll shut the whole thing down then.� Which he couldn�t do no matter how much he wanted because we had a full price buyer on stand-by. So when he does send me the offer it is full of stuff he is trying to get me to sign off on. I responded with this---


I will accept <agreed upon amount>

7) No. I will not pay for the Title insurance or any other cost associated with your closing.
10) No. As I told you in our phone conversation earlier today I can not be out by your closing. I will agree to be out by June 15th if your closing takes place by May 24th.
12) There is a current termite policy on our home. I just spoke to Jane Doe at Termite Company (phone number) and she said that the policy will carry forward with no interruption in coverage. This is a non issue, but just to clarify, I am not paying for a termite policy.
13) No. You know the condition of this house because you lived here for 7 years. I am selling to you in an as is condition. (he tried to get me to pay $2000 toward �repairs� on the home.)
16) My name will be removed from the mortgage through your refinancing and I will be paid Agreed upon Amount. I will sign a quitclaim relinquishing my claim to the property.

If you make the above changes I will sign and return to you.

Without even mentioning any of the above refusals by me he sends me this the next day---

WH: Before I moved out, we were having to get the A/C charged each year and was told that the unit was not new when it was installed during the building of the house and was in need of being replaced.

Recently you said that the unit was not in need of being replaced. Do you have any documentation to support this claim?

My reply--
SW: I don't know what you are talking about as far as the unit not being new when the house was built. I had <XYZ company> heating and air out to service it in April--the bill was $150. The tech added Freon and it is working fine. He told me that he discovered a leak near the valve that he repaired and that could be what the problem is since the other techs we had out last year could not identify the source of the leak. He also said even if the charge doesn't hold he would recommend replacing the coil only---not the entire unit.

And no I don't have 'documentation' to support this 'claim.' Feel free to contact <XYZ company>> and discuss it with them.

If you are not sure you want to buy me out, you need to tell me now so that we can call the buyer back that is willing to pay full price for this house. I told him everything about the AC that is outlined above. He was fine with it.
SW

The next day he sent an offer with all the stipulations removed. He shoves and shoves..but he is a bully.

Most bullies are the same. They push and push when they believe the other party is weak or intimidated.

When the other person stands up and pushes back, the bully shuts up or walks away with his tail between his legs. There is no backbone in the bully.


Your XWH sounds like a bully. Probably explains why he has chosen the OW he has right now. At first glance she seems weaker - right? Younger, so she would seem less assertive, would need to rely on him more, would be easier to push around.

Only...it kind of turns out that this OW isn't exactly what he bargained for, doesn't it? She is pushy, mean, and pulls his strings. Just what he didn't expect, but he isn't really strong enough to bully her, because he isn't as tough as he pretends to be.


I have to laugh at them, SW. So should you.


Their fantasy was this:

Big strong older man who is in control, meets younger needy woman who can look up to him and accept his guidance and assured strength. They look forward to a future of solidarity and steadiness together.

Their reality is this:

Bully-type older guy who is full of bluster meets younger pushy b*At0*&ch who pulls his strings and they end up in a drama-filled relationship where the little woman is in charge and the old guy is dazed and confused trying to figure out what happened.



SB

You just described his mom and dad's relationship. His dad was 28 years older than his mother. She ran smack over him until the day he died. He had 3 children with her though....so neither could really 'escape'. Makes me happy to think about OW treating BH like his mom treated his dad.

Just got this email from WXH.

This is the notification that I will be taking ds10 on vacation next weekend so I would like him to spend the night with me Saturday night in addition to my regularly scheduled Friday night. I will return him Sunday evening.

Guess they are going to try it again.

Now what do I do?

I am just sick about this. Another week to worry and worry about what will happen after I drop ds off Friday evening. Ug.

Awww, SW, this thread is so sad. These wayward fathers are such turds...really sewer dwellers. They just don't see how blessed they are and how harmful their behaviors are to the well-being of their own children.

Honestly, we can't tell you what you should or should not do from a perspective that is safe for you legally. I wish your atty had returned your call because you do need to know what is allowed legally from the courts in your state.

Of course, morally, we want you to keep DS away from OW. But the clause of no overnights with OW might no be enforceable by law. It could very well be something that you could get in trouble for (parental alienation) if you personally try to enforce it by keeping DS away from OW (and from xWH by default).

I have to go with "Know your rights." Look online for the laws in your state. Try to glean as much info online regarding your situation and how your state expects it to be handled.

Hopefully, the OW clause in the custody agreement is taken seriously by your state. Meaning if XWH does violate the agreement and expose DS to OW, then your xWH can be held in contempt.

I can say that in my state, such a clause avoiding exposure to a paramour is pretty much not enforceable. Fl is very liberal in that regard and takes the position that each parent has the right to "parent as he or she fit". It's truly a sad, sick approach.

You've got to know what legally is acceptable for you to do and what xWH is legally allowed to do regarding CV. You're going to have to maneuver within the confines of what the court in your area allows. Try making contact with your atty again on Monday. Oh, and don't even respond regarding the vacay until you've gotten legal advice on how to proceed. xWH had agreed to a specific condition and now wants to renege. Say nothing about it yet; don't engage over that specific issue. 180 is your friend.

Try not to be anxious (much easier said than done). Pray the Psalms, esp the ones about the enemy and God's justice and protection.

I'm asking that our Heavenly Father protect and keep you and DS. Keep the Faith. It will be ok.

I guess I do need to talk to my attorney. The custody agreement which WXH signed off on and the judge signed off on says he can't have over nights of opposite sex. WXH says they will have seperate hotel rooms. They probably will. He has had ds around OW since January.....our divorce was final end of November last year....but no overnights with her and no 'vacations.' Too me vacations seem worse than just spending the day with her at WXH's house but I think legally I will not win in front of a judge. I am ok with dragging it out and just basically making it difficult for him and her....but it also makes it difficult for me. I am not sure how far to push it. At what point do I let go....Do I take it back in front of a judge and plead my case that I am not trying to keep ds from his father, but I don't want him to go on vacations with the woman who broke up the family?

When he 'informed' me of his intent for next weekend I only answered back and said, 'where are you taking him?' My lawyer did tell me earlier this year that I had the right to know where he is going to be.

Where is the atty letter? As SB said he is a bully and trying to push the issue.

If this is not in your divorce decree he cannot just decide to do this.

What has changed since last time. Nothing. So he is trying to scare you down. Just say "No". Let him get an atty and pay.

The decree doesn't say he can't take ds on vacations. It says he can't have overnights when ds is with him. I just don't want him to.

I will have to discuss with my attorney....but in March when this last came up when XWH wanted to take ds on vacation to FL...and said they would be in seperate units...my attorney said this...

>>I believe that arrangement will be acceptable to the judge. But I can file something to try and stop it if you want.'>>

I don't know. I am worried.

What does the decree state regarding vacations?

What he seems to be asking for is "extra time", beyond the scheduled visitation - that is what his text says. Plus, on top of that, an overnight somewhere else.

So you have two things he is asking for:

1. Time beyond his scheduled visitation
2. The overnight vacation


What does the decree state about time beyond scheduled visitation? Can you deny on that account, or are you supposed to allow vacations with dad?


SB

The decree says he gets 3 weeks of vacation with ds a year. With a weeks notice. So I can't deny on that account. Also the wording leads me to believe he did talk to his lawyer because last week he mentioned having given me the required 2 weeks notice and now he is giving me a weeks notice....so I bet he did talk to his attorney. Or maybe he read his copy of the decree--shrug.

So I have to figure out legally---and I will ask my attorney tomorrow---if I have any chance of denying based on it being an overnight vacation with her.

ok. So, you may not be able to fight this, if the atty's letter from before stands, and they keep separate rooms.

There are things that you might be able to do that can help you, though.

Pray.
Remember that she is 25. That she is selfish, and having DS around might sound alluring at first, but might turn out to be a fantasy-buster for her when it comes to "her" vacation time. She may see this as her "future", and it might tarnish the fantasy a bit. See, she might be thinking that she has your WXH all in a nice little box, and then the reality of DS comes into play: She isn't his mom, he is wary of her, she has no influence or authority in disciplinary matters, and playing "mom" gets tiresome when it interferes with having what you want when you want it. And from your description, OW is used to getting what she wants when she wants it.

DS, being a kid, will be direct competition on a vacation for that throne.


And having to sleep elsewhere will chap her behind.


She will gripe, whine, and make a butt of herself the whole time. It will NOT be fun for your WXH, because he will spend the vacation trying to make her happy.


His text to you has already indicated all is not a fantasy in fantasyland. A healthy shot of nagging and complaining for two days straight ought to help him, don't you think?


I guess if the law is not on your side, then you must look to God and trust that He knows what He is doing. We are looking up, at the underside of his tapestry. We only see a tangle of threads, sometimes a glimpse of a greater picture. Only God can see the intricacies, the delicate beauty, the perfect plan of his grand design being sewn in every stitch. He has the view - He holds the needle and chooses each color and thread. Trust His plan if things appear to go the wrong way. In the final outcome, if you stay on His path, somehow things always work to the best that they could possibly be. And that tapestry weaves a perfect ending, all of its own accord.


SB

pack his pockets full of candies that he picks out at the store. Let OW become fully aware of what it is to have a sugar daddy's boy in the car with her.

Funny KA. I am finding some peace with it.....

Now how can I compose a concession email and retain some dignity....I won't do it until I talk to attorney tomorrow, but I feel that is how it will turn out..so what do I say?

"Ok, you win, I lose." ????

Ths is beautiful and very helpful.

Thank you.

I talked to ds briefly today....I asked him, "How do you personally feel about OW?'


He actually said, 'I know what they did is really bad, but she is nice to me.'

Hmmm.....I told him I was glad of that. Glad she treated him well.

Then I said,

'ds10, if it was up to you, and I'm not saying it IS up to you, but if it was up to you, how would you feel about going on the trip to waterpark with your dad and OW?"

He said he didn't know. Then he said he didn't want to upset me. Then I asked him if he had his way would he prefer a trip with his dad alone or with gf and gf's 5 year old son. He said with the gf and son because it was more fun to play with the gf's son....

I was calm. I didn't guilt induce.

I told him that yes the entire thing was upsetting to me, but I was glad he was ok with being with them................

I probably went too far though when I asked him how he felt about the gf's ds sleeping in the bed his dad bought for him. X-neighbors let me know she spent the night last night and I assume (maybe incorrectly) that her son was there. Ds was not happy about that...and I think now I shouldnt have told him. Although I feel strongly that the X neighbor kids will tell him.....and I'd rather him hear it from me.

Why do you need to say anything?

He didn't ask you a question....



He "informed" you.

If you decide to let DS go, what I would do, is simply drop him off at scheduled time. Or better yet, have someone else drop him off at scheduled time.

If between now and then he asks you if you're going to let him go, simply reply, "yes"....in an email.

You seriously need to get yourself in a dark Plan B. You need to remove yourself from this drama and start healing.

Find yourself an intermediary. And let them spare you the triggers you're going through. I'd also change the place you are dropping DS off at. Too many triggers at that house.

Find a nearby park and agree to do drop offs and pick ups there. You need to make every effort you can not to see (or be seen) by your X. Go dark dark dark.

Oh, and I wouldn't get anything DS might need for the trip, or remind DS to bring anything he might need for the trip. That is his father's responsibility.

If he forgets his swim trunks, his dad will have to run out and buy him a new pair.

Personally, I wouldn't even send him with any swim trunks. WH wanted to take the boys swimming yesterday and DSx2 wanted to take their swim trunks. I told them that "Daddy" would have to buy them some. I send them with the clothes they wear and that's IT. If WH wants to take them somewhere on HIS time it's on HIS dime. It's what I do when I have them.

I would send DS10 with the clothes on his back. It is up to WH to provide for his child.

I agree with everything else that Marshmallow said though. A dark Plan B would save you from the drama. It would be purely a removal of yourself. That CAN'T be bad(for you).

You are right MM. I did reply back to his email and ask him 'where are you taking him?' My attorney told me he has to tell me where he is taking him....but I don't think I will press the issue at this point. I need to cut out the drama and stop thinking about it.

My parents are taking a trip to NYC---I decided this morning I am booking me and ds to go as well. It will probably cost about $3000K total but I think it will do me and ds a WORLD of good. It is a trip I've wanted to take my entire life and by George I'm going! THAT will be my new focus.

When XH dropped ds off Wednesday evening for the first time EVER (in over a year of visitation) he didn't walk him to the door. And when I dropped him off before that he wasn't standing in the driveway waiting. I can deal with that.

I certainly will not be helpful in any way. If they are going to that water park, it will sure be a quick trip if he is going to have him home Sunday evening. At this point it seems like he is doing it just to prove he can...:) I bet that takes a litte of the fun out of it.

Even BETTER!!!

Good deal. Start doing stuff for YOU and DS.


Yeah, but can you deal w/ seeing OW sitting in the driveway? Or seeing their car packed up ready to go on their little vacation?

Protect yourself, SW!

Hmmmm.....didn't think of that.....I doubt seriously she will be there at drop off though. She lives in the other direction and toward the water park destination. I won't be picking ds up anymore though because it is more likely she will be there at the end of visitation...

Remember the 5 words rule? Helps YOU and makes life tough at the other end as well.

You reply IF AND ONLY IF he asks you anything regarding the trip.

As far as you are concerned, you do not outfit your son for all of his vacations with his father. That is his father's issue, his father's vacation, his father's responsibility. How would it be possible for you to know what his father has planned for his father's vacation? You do not know the vacation plans. You do not know if the child will swim, go to a museum, need a suit for a fine dining occasion, attend a church service or a wedding, you have no idea. Therefore, you send the child with whatever it is you might send him for his usual visitation - nothing more. The father can and should outfit the vacation necessities - do you have a reasonable expectation that the father will outfit your son to go to New York? No. Same goes for the upcoming trip with dad.

If dad texts you regarding needed things for trip - your text back:

"DS goes to NY Aug 15."

He will immediately ask you what you are talking about.

you say:

"Needs swim trunks Aug 15."

WXH will say he is talking about this Friday.

you say:

"Friday is YOUR trip."

WXH will say he needs this or that for DS's trip.

you say:

"NY is MY trip."

WXH may repeat and repeat.

you say:

"Friday is YOUR trip. NY mine."
or
"U get DS's stuff 4 UR trip."
and
"I get DS stuff 4 my trip."



He will ultimately understand that the son's equipment and clothing needs for his vacation. It will be just plain too bad if he and OW wait til the last minute. However, he WILL see one major flaw in his wayward thinking over this:

He will see how you filled that emotional need of taking care of these kinds of things before trips, won't he? And how OW has no earthly clue of how to do this for HIS son, but does it for her own son.


SB

Got the letter. It is ridiculous. His lawyer is a jerk, WXH is a jerk...but I feel ok. He accuses me of harrassing him via text past 10---he asked sometime last year for me to not text him past 10. I analyed my texting records just now and in the last 3 months there have been 5 evenings where we were texting each other all evening and on past 10. ONE night I texted him twice past 10 with no response. Far from harrasment, but you can bet I won't be texting him again. His attorney threatened to file charges against me. Please. But still, I won't text any more.

She says while his truck was in my possesion I either scratched it or allowed it to be scratched and she wants me to pay to have it repaired. I didn't scratch btw. Have no knowledge of how it happened. 2 small scratches.

Says I am late for drop off. I am not. Rarely. Last Wednesday there was a misunderstanding---I thought he was going to out of town and unavailable for his visitation...as soon as he called me and told me he was in town, I drove ds straight there.

Oh, and he is claiming I 'cleaned out the house of all personal property'. What a joke. I did not. I had already given my attorney a detailed list of what I took and what I left. I was reasonable and fair. His attorney wants ME to contact XH to work out an agreeable division of property or she will be 'filing a motion requesting the court order it all sold'. I told my attorney fine. I'm good with that.

Says he didn't pay June alimony because I left the utilities unpaid. I did not. I didn't pay about $120 in utilities in his name--because I was waiting to get my June alimony. She also says I was in the house until 'at least June 15th.' I actually was out the 14th but it is irrelevant since he closed on buying the house from me prior to June 1 and therefore made the last mortgage on May 1st. The order says he did not have to pay alimony while he was paying the mortgage on the marital home. That marital home ceased to exist sometime in May. And that has nothing to do with utilities.

And hey since he is being such a jerk, I'm asking that he reimburse me for half of the $150 service call on the AC I paid for in April.

And the biggie of course which is Vacation. I told my attorney if I can't stop it I can't stop it.

I replied to my attorney point by point in an email....haven't heard back from him.

I feel better though. What will be will be. As I see it

I won't text past 10 anymore--so that is done.
I will probably have to allow the vacation with OW so that is done
I am prepared to pay the utilities of roughly $120
I am now asking for $75 in reimbursement for AC service
He has no proof I damaged his truck. There is no way he can make me pay this is there?
All our personal property might be sold but hey...that is ok. New start right?

He can't eat me!

Does anybody have a chance opposing you? Amazing reasoning. Lol

Ready for less contact with your ex yet?

Yep! He is so poisonous to me. I haven't talked to him at all and I won't. I can't believe how low he is willing to sink.

I am listening to Mel Gibson's tirade and having PTSS flashbacks. Wow....don't have to listen to that stuff any more!

I watched the Mel Gibson coverage last night. They mentioned the alcoholic rant from 4 years ago. They mentioned the new baby. Not one word was mentioned of the long term marriage that was destroyed. It is like Hollywood doesn't care about that part of his diseased spirit.

Smiling woman,
Your xH is poison while he is with OW. They are not the same people and still we are amazed each time they act at the pond scum level.

Let him wallow right now. He is playing "king of the hill" and he does not realize that the hill is made of "quick sand".

If DS goes on vacation, think how this could play out.

Like the suggestion of candy candy candy. When you drop him off start singing "Candy Man".

Make sure there is plenty left over for OW S.

When the 2 boys start arguing with each other and it will happen and XH will defend his son and OW will defend hers.

Trouble in paradise.

And where will you be...getting a pedi, manicure, going to one of the block buster new films, dinner with friends...be a Goddess.

And when you make plans for NYC let me know. I used to live an hour away and it is one of my favorite cities. Tell you some great places to eat and how to get around.

take care.

SW,

Harassment is nearly always dismissed. It is very difficult to prove harassment - and two times does not harassment make. Just stop, as requested, and that one goes away.

The lawyer also knows that he would have to prove you induced the scratches on the truck, and that would be impossible. Your lawyer also knows this.


Your XWH and you need distance. Lots of it. This little letter is a sign of a tit-for-tat thing that can go one of two ways. It can escalate, or you can make it stop completely.

It escalates when one party responds in exactly the same way, and returns fire. Like your plan to ask for the $75. That is fuel for the fire. My question is this: Is it worth $75 for him to be gone, for the drama to stop? Then just let it GO.

My guess on the furniture? There is a specific thing that he wants. Ask him what that thing is. There is something that is stuck in his craw, and if you figure it out, it might very well be something really simple or stupid, and he will accept it and you do not need to go to court to solve it. But you know, that should already have been covered in the divorce decree, and seems to me that he has signed off on that already???? Why is it coming up now? Has he mentioned something over and over, that he felt you took and he wants?

Is it worth it just to give him that "thing" and be done with him?

SB

Ds10 has been around OW and her son (5) quite a lot in the last 6 months. Ds likes him ok....for a 5 year old..:) There have been a few instances of XWH making ds10 give in to the 5 year old...making ds feel horrible.

I can't remember if I posted this but I did ask ds Sunday morning how he felt about OW. He was quiet and said, 'I know what they did was really bad, but she is really nice to me.' I was calm, kind, gentle...ask him if the hardest part was knowing how it made me feel...he said yes. I told him I was sorry he was in the middle of it and none of it was his fault and it was ok if just enjoyed his time with them and not to worry about me. I did get out of that conversation that there is not much interaction between ds and OW....mostly he plays with the 5 year old when they are all together. That made me feel better.

I talked to XH's brother tonight. He left his wife for a much younger OW and regrets it. That relationship last 2 years...but it didn't last. He told me he met XH's OW a few weeks ago and he said all he was thinking was, 'this won't work out.'

Surprisingly....I'm not feeling too bad considering that stupid letter I got today.

stillstanding2,

"Does anybody have a chance opposing you?"


t/j

This made me laugh!!!!

My H will just say, "I can't argue with you. You make sense and it pis$es me off. Can't I just say 'This is how I feeeelllll' and be done with the argument? Doesn't that work with you????"

He hates to fight with me. I seldom get really angry, and when he starts to get angry, I usually look at him and say, "It doesn't help to be angry, because you know that we will just stop and re-discuss later when things are settled. Let me know when you're ready."

Sort of a takeoff on my fit routine....and it works.

Less contact with your ex includes talking about him with his family. Do you not see that you are constantly focused on your ex and ow? That is not helping you. It is an anchor to your pain that you must leave behind you.

Sorry about the t/j but... I PITY THE FOOL THAT OPPOSES YOU!

Definitely worth $75 for him to be gone. Which is why I haven't ask for it until now. He is the one coming at me wanting to get every last thing he can out of me even though he is the one who was wrong and blew this family up.

I don't know what the 'thing' is. Probably the $2000 patio set and the gas grill that would give him the image he so desperately wants....cool bachelor dude or some such. He LOVES the house and he often told my brother it would make a good bachelor pad. Which is weird to everyone who hears that...it is clearly a family home.

Anyway, will wait to hear from my lawyer. I do just want him to go away. Do you think I should fold on the June alimony too? It is $1000!!!!

Less contact includes letting your lawyer handle this - including getting your $1000 alimony.

It was a short conversation and we haven't talked for months! Really....I am doing MUCH better. BIL was big part of my life for nearly 30 years. He is suppose to call me back later tonight....I won't answer....:) Will that be better?

I miss the other half of my family too. Maybe you can have a relationship with them in the future (6months to a year after you are less invested) because you are still tied to them with your son. But now, you are using them for intel and to get a "fix" on your addiction to your ex and all the drama that comes with him.
You need NC to heal.

You got me. Ok, no contact with his family.....

So now what are you going to do with all this extra time? Lol

I am doing laundry...:) And plan to go to a sales meeting in the morning which starts at 8:30 a.m.....and I have to drop ds10 at swim before that....so I am trying to move forward.

Oh! And I watch season opening of The Closer! I think I missed an entire season!!!!!

SW,


My question remains essentially the same:

What are you willing to give him to make him go away?


My guess is that you are right - your instinct is that he wants the grill and patio set.

But, ask him. "What is it that you WANT from the house? Is there something specific that you feel you wanted that you did not get in the divorce settlement that you need?"

He might surprise you - do not assume you know, but your guess might be on the mark.

However, have the attorneys put this on paper - or he will be back. He is stirring up drama because he NEEDS this emotional area to be fed.

Do you see that?

Each and every time he bites at you, you scream and bite back.


This is feeding him emotional need for DRAMA. He is a drama queen. Sorry, but your EX-MAN is a drama queen. And he has a new little woman who is also a drama queen.

Each contact with you feeds THEM.


GO. DARK.

GO. DARK.

Keep your texts to a bare minimum. BARE MINIMUM.


Here is the text regarding the furniture:

"What pieces of furniture U after?"


If he goes on a rant......


"List pieces of furniture, please"

stay on that track



When he submits his list:


"U can have: (list)"

"No can do: (list)"

If he rants, you just repeat your lists.

If there is no compromising with him, then your final text could be:

"Garage sale can be ordered by court, your choice. Take list of yes, or leave it."




End.

I am listening and taking notes! I am dark. Will be dark. Am ready to let ds10 go with him from Friday to Sunday evening.....trying to prepare for that.....Next contact will be Wednesday drop off. I will be there at 5:30....drop him and leave....

I will see what my attorney thinks I should do about the furniture....

You are a lifesafer SB. Thanks.

Really? I really do this? Wow. Ok. Feeling the need to fade away from him. I am woman hear me roar....I mean Hear me go DARK!

Yeah...What Schoolbus said.

And yes really...

Don't worry SW, a lot of people do this. My sister does this with her XWH too. She had an argument with him on the phone one day for 45 minutes and I was there mouthing, "Hang up. What are you doing? Hang up." Over and over again. But you see, she too is a drama queen.

Ok, just got a reply from him....he sent me a message Saturday saying he was taking ds on vacation this coming weekend...(not much of a vacation...only keeping him the whole weekend instead of returning him Saturday evening at 6:00 p.m....) but anyway, Saturday I replied and said, 'where are you taking him?' He didn't respond until 10:45 p.m just now....and he said, 'either canoeing or a water park.'

What does that mean SB?

I didn't reply at all. I do not plan to. Waiting on word from my attorney.

I am taking comfort in knowing that even though he pulled the trigger on his bull dog drama queen attorney, he is VERY much concerned about how I am dealing with this and what I will do next.

I say Plan B, and let your IM or lawyer pass on what you need to know.


This is very interesting to me. WHY are you comforted by this?

He responded at 10:45? P.M.???

Oh. My. Gosh! That's harassment! Slap his fanny with a lawsuit!


Seriously - do not delete that text!

I get SB's advice to de-escalate. This "Time" of his return text could easily allow you to escalate. Choose calm.

When was the last time you read "Art of War"? It's time to study it with regard to your adversary of OW and WXH.

Study it and practice it.

Wants Grill and Patio? Honor my wishes with regard to son around OW. Find a way to make him soften his posture. You need to know what he wants most. But he needs to become less invested in offending you regarding your son.

Get him to put a price on that protection. That way you'll know what "SHE" is worth to him in the big scheme of things. That can come in handy when she needs to learn where she really stands.

Keep all these things to yourself. You are months away from having to play these cards for real. She's looking for a more permanent relationship with him. This vacation is the ice breaker for your son in her mind.

Art of War - become a student and a practitioner of it in every interaction with him.

I have been reading "art of war"...it will help you fight the good fight.

It is humorous that his text is after the witching hour of 10 pm. He is breaking his own rules.

Keep us posted.

Because it makes me feel better that I am not the only one of us sick at my stomach over this. He cause this....he should at least suffer a little...and I know that in the wise words of my BIL eventually I 'just won't give a *hit'......but for now if I have to suffer I am glad he is too.

Okay, I was just trying to understand, as I have not had to go through this yet.

I too found it funny that he sent the message after 10pm. It isn't something you would use as ammo yet. I would also suggest that you no longer delete ANY of his texts. Think of it kind of like when a BS is in the snooping stage. Keep ALL of the evidence and hold on to it until "exposure"(not of the affair but of his stupidity )

He sent an email...not a text. I will not be communicating via text with him again unless I am forced to about ds and I am not near a computer...might be a good excuse to get that Droid I've been coveting.

I have not read the Art of War. Will look for it today when I go shopping with my mom.

I would give up every material thing in this house if he would agree in writing to not take my son around her. I would even agree to a limitation of a year.

I am having a reeeeeeaaally hard time not taking copies of OWs chats with WXH and chats between WXH and my cousin and the shoe box full of vile porn straight to her daddy. The only reason I don't is because I do not want to make myself look crazy to a judge.

As far as him wanting the patio set and grill...I know it is important to him and the first time he dropped ds off at this new house he wanted to come in and I wouldn't let him....and I caught him sneaking into my back yard...I yelled at him to leave but I know he was going to see if the patio set was there. He also asked ds if I've sold anything. Things are very important to him.

You can download a free copy online. Art of War Free

Thank you!

Plan B is for YOU. Plan B is therefore appropriate in Plan D, as well as in recovery situations.

You do not need to reply to his email. You know he is going canoeing or to a waterpark. He will let you know when he figures it out. Don't beat a dead horse.

Do not initiate contact unless there is a dire need.

Very short email regarding atty letter:

"Got attorney's letter. Please email list of furniture you propose/desire."

That is IT. Nothing else. NOTHING ELSE. NOTHING. ELSE.



You have committed to nothing in this letter, you have asked only for what he is thinking, wanting.

You don't know what he will say, you might be surprised.

After you get the list, wait and THINK.


He will put all kinds of stuff on there.

Do NOT be baited. He likely will include everything he can think of.

Compare the list to the divorce decree. Then, talk to your attorney about what he wants - and DO NOT reply to him regarding anything whatsoever on the list until you do so.


SB

Email only- as much as possible. He will know that he has to keep it civil because it is in writing. Let your attorney make everything official. If you keep feeding him drama, this could go on for YEARS! I have seen people spend every dime that they have to battle in court. Their lawyers do very well. They end up broke and bitter. Do you want 8 more years of bickering and tit for tat? De-escalate. 5 word messages. Do not even look at OW at drop-offs/pick-ups. She is invisible to you. He is a cardboard cut-out of a man that you knew a long time ago. Would you argue with cardboard? He is not that man anymore. Enough about him!

Hey SW, How's it going?

Did you take SB's advice and ask XWH what he wants?

I am not going to say anything to him until I hear back from my attorney. I sent my attorney an email going over all that junk...sent it Monday afternoon close to 5:00. Nothing back from him. Which is fine....let my XH wondering what is going on. No hurry.

Good girl. You can ask him after your atty looks at the paperwork. The divorce decree may very well cover the division of furniture, and he is probably just SOL over it, and too bad.

Our divorce decree is a joke. It says, 'Parties are to divide marital personal property. In the event they cannot reach an agreement the court will issue a supplemental Order ordering that the remaining personal property be sold and the proceeds divided."

Had contact with him....Ugh. Always a joy. I took ds10 with a bunch of friends to a nearby small waterpark. We got there at 1:30 and would have had to leave around 4:30-4:45 to ensure I could get ds to his dad's by the 5:30 visitation time...Around 4:15 ds calls his dad and asks to skip visitation so he could stay at the water park. His dad gets on the phone with me and said he would come pick ds up (he works nearby) and would be there around 5:15. Ok, well, that buys ds another 45 minutes, so I'm like 'ok.' I send XH a text confirming that he agreed to this (wanted that in writing so he couldn't use it against me) and he answered back that sure it was fine.

Well, I have ds ready and waiting for him by 5:15..XH shows up and takes ds (I avoided contacted completed....saw him across the way, but no real contact) XH takes ds and leaves WITH MY KEYS which I had left in ds's bag! Stupid stupid SW!!!!

So within 10 minutes I call him and he is FURIOUS, but not over the keys! He starts screaming at me...'I didn't know the park closed at 6:00, so I drove all the way over there for nothing!!!' I'm like...???? but won't discuss it at all except to say, "I didn't know it either, can you bring me my keys? He starts screaming at me some more and I"m really confused but manage to say nothing else and just hang up. I waited in front of the water park entrance with about 10 of my friends so when he comes back with my keys there was no discussion...

But wow. He is nuts. I guess he thought he would hang out at the water park with ds? I am not sure...but we were all ready to go by the time XH got there at 5:30...

Also, in his text back to me (where I confirmed the pick up arrangement) he said, 'Yes, it is better than not seeing him. I'm taking Friday off so can I have him earlier Friday?'

I didn't respond to that text at all...;) I'm thinking the answer is no. I think we will strictly adhere to the drop off time of 6:00 p.m. Friday. He is already taking him overnight Saturday which is extra.....

Oh and he is late bringing him home.

He brought him home at 8:45...15 minutes late. Should I send him an email mentioning it?

Also, he walked him to the door and asked me if I had gotten his text earlier about wanting to get ds early on Friday since he is taking off work. I refused to discuss it...told him I would email him later, 'good bye' and I shut the door.

Trying to figure out what to do now. If he is calling this more 'vacation' he hasn't given me the 'one week's notice'. I don't have to have ds to him until Friday at 6:00. He told ds he is taking him to Whitewater...I don't want to make things easy on him to do this....

Don't know if I should refuse or not. I really really am inclined to refuse. Or to just not answer at all.

*edit*

SW, if I had to choose, I'd listen to Schoolbus.

tl

Oh, man, I missed a Bubbles Classic I guess....Schoolbus has been dead on with her advise to me...she considers the entire picture and the entire XH I am dealing with.

I would love for things to be cordial...and for it to be no big deal that he came to pick ds up for vistaiton at a waterpark or no big deal that he was 15 minutes late bringing him home....unfortunatley WXH has made it impossible.

Whatever happened to men (or women) who take the position, 'well, I messed it all up, I should be the one to suffer, not my innocent X-spouse or child.'

Waywards are selfish human beings(I use the term lightly). They do not think about anything else. You really should go into a plan B type thing with your XWH. You could have had one of your friends call him and ask for the keys and that friend could have gotten the keys from him. Also, all of this text and email stuff should go through an IM to filter out the wayturd bull. Is there some other way to "hand off" your DS so there is NO CONTACT? By that I mean, you DON'T see him and he doesn't see you either? Get a key made up for your DS so he can unlock the door AFTER XWH drives off? Just brainstorming things for you, so you can come up with a good solution.

That would have been a HUGE deal. First we share no friends AT ALL. None. I was 45 minutes from my home....30 minutes from WXH home. The waterpark was about to close. I had other people riding with me. Someone would have been driving an extra hours worth of driving to go get the keys and return them to me. XWH had only been gone 10 minutes.

I already talk about this junk to my IRL friends WAY too much.....been going on for over a year and I am trying very hard to come up with new topics of conversations with them. No way I am going to ask any of them to be involved in communicating with him.

And I do not want my ds to have a key to my house.....no way I would trust XWH to not come in my house when I'm not here. Besides that would not stop WH from walking him to the door.

Scotland I realize I just shot down every suggestion you had....:) But listen to what I've been thinking...the REAL problem is MY reaction to XWH. I am limiting conversations and contact with him as much as I can so that I can heal. Like that conversation on the phone last night when ds had talked to him first...I can't refuse to allow ds to call his dad...THEY made the plan...XH gets on the phone and tells ME what the plan was and then gets ANGRY at ME. It made no sense. However, I did manage to not engage. Normally I would have SAID all that to him...I just brushed it aside and asked if he would bring my keys to me.

Later when he came to the door with ds, I refused to discuss anything with him. I just said, 'I'll email you later.' and I shut the door. He tapped on the door and I turned around and he had his face pressed to the glass. Nuts. Just nuts. I just walked out of sight and he left.

I am really learning new and better communication skills through all this though. Because every interaction forces me to not respond to nonsense and that takes a lot of focus. That is why I so carefully consider what I do or say to him...and why I ask to be led by the hand by you people.

Okay, what I was talking about when I said a friend was that you said you had people with you. One of them could have called him and one of them could have gotten the keys from him.

You could just do what I do with my kiddos when WH comes to get them for visits. There is no interaction at all. WH calls the house, DS answers and says, "We will be right out." DSx2 go out. I wait a few minutes and then I leave for work. When they come home. DSx2 get out of the car, WH drives away, DSx2 ring the doorbell. WH calls them to make sure they got in. There is ZERO contact. Remember, my DSx2 are 10 and 7. THIS is the best solution and I am in complete control over the contact.

You also could have someone else email him with stuff. Then you wouldn't have to deal with it yourself. There are ALWAYS solutions. I was just throwing some things out there to brainstorm. You are continually getting triggered by seeing your XWH and it is causing you not to be able to heal. I see it in my sister and I am constantly saying to her, "What do YOU get out of it?" There has to be a reason you won't end ALL contact. Only YOU can figure out what that reason is.

Yes, you did. Maybe not one of the Top 10, but certainly one of the Top 20. Or Top 40. Well, shoot--there's just so much to choose from. How about the Top 100?

tl

But what would you do if your WH wouldn't drive away? I would be fine with dropping ds off in WH's driveway and leaving....by the time I get backed out he has answered the door so I know WH has let him in...that is fine. I am fine with him dropping him off in my driveway and leaving. The way my front door is set up I don't even have to see his truck or anything...ds rings the bell and I let him in...only ONE time has that happened though. WXH insists on walking him to the door....and I know WHY (thanks to this board)...it is because he needs the drama. He misses me on some level and wants to interact with me and tries to use our child as the excuse.

I see your point about the keys at the waterpark now. Duh,...I'm a little slow...I could have stayed inside out of sight and had a friend get the keys from him as he pulled up to the front entrance. Yes, I could have/should have done that. It did briefly cross my mind, but at the point I saw him driving in I only had a bunch of kids out front with me (only 2 other grown ups were with me) and I didn't feel comfortable involving kids in that.

I do work very hard to limit my conversations and contact with him. And you keep me on my toes about it Scotland, so thanks for that.

I still need to know what to do about letting him go early with his dad tomorrow. I just got that nasty letter from his attorney on Monday saying her client wants to 'strictly adhere to visitation schedule.' I am not inclined to play nice and let him go early now. Not to mention he is probably taking ds10 out of town with OW. Why should I make that easier for them?

Btw, our visitation schedule says Friday drop off is at 6:00 and Wednesday drop off is 5:30..I've always taken ds at 5:30 on Friday also....but I won't be doing that now.

Also should I send an email mentioning he was late bringing him home last night? Or just make a note of it on my calender?

LOL....she used to eat me alive over on 101...

If you don't want to send DS early, send XWH an email, "I will drop DS off at your home at the usual set time."

I think you did GREAT avoiding drama w/ him, yesterday!!Really good job. Love it that you told him you'd email him your answer. Whenever you get put on the spot, just tell him you'll think about it and reply later.

Scotland has done a masterful plan B. The best I've ever seen. I'm so glad she's posting to you. You really need to go darker...the darker the better.

Don't be available for him to unload the crap he unloaded on you yesterday.

I probably would let him have DS early though.

I don't think his attorney's letter and his recent nastiness should be a factor in whether he has a little extra time w/ DS.

I agree Scotland is the Queen of plan B. I doubt I can ever get that good, but her suggestions do help me a lot.

Why does it make me so nervous to think about emailing XH and telling him 'I will drop ds off at the usual set time'?

The biggest factor is that he is taking ds out of town with OW. You think I should set that aside and let him have him early?

Maybe b/c you know you should probably let him have him earlier?

I know. I would let him have the time, yeah.

And then I'd go out and do something fabulous for myself.

ETA:You've already stated you can't stop him from taking OW w/ him on vacation. I wouldn't give him exactly what he wants, but I'd bend a little bit.

Before you bend, realize that whatever you do will establish a precedent. Be sure of the precedent you want to establish, before you commit to either direction.

tl

Good point.

Maybe you could say, "I will allow you to have extra time THIS time, but would like to know about your wanting extra time at least a week in an advance from now on."

"But I must know about your wanting extra time at least a week in advance from now on." Put this in writing, probably via text, and save it. This man does NOT sound like the sort of person to whom you want to give any wiggle room whatsoever.

tl

Your ex came late for your son at the waterpark so your son could have extra time with you. He came back with your keys when he could have told you no. Why not return the favor and let him have a little extra time with his son? He is not being unreasonable according to what you have said IMO. You want him to feel sorry for what he has done and make life easier for you to show repentance. But, at the same time, your unwillingness to show any kindness towards him prevents him from feeling anything but justified - and it fans his anger towards you. You could relax a little and gain a lot.

And, having a lot less contact is necessary. It bears repeating because while you "say" you are prepared to de-escalate, your actions show otherwise.

My lawyer told me to be very careful about any changes to my visitation agreement. Get everything in writing, any changes, even if they seem insignificant. Make sure it is common knowledge that this time is 'extra', not part of a regularly scheduled visitation. You just cannot trust right now.

See, I'm getting conflicting advice....bend a little to stop the escalation, don't give an inch or he will take a mile...

If I do allow him to go how do I word the email? Also, how do I address how much of this is 'X-tra' time vs. part of the 3 weeks worth of vacation. I don't want to give up a lot of Fridays with my son and realize later I still have to let him go on MORE vacations.

Still Standing said exactly what I was trying to say but a lot better and nicer. You could always say to him:

"Thanks for letting him stay longer at the water park so now I am going to let him stay longer at your place".

It takes two people to create an ugly and inflexible situation for the boy. You can refuse to trust him and still be civil, communicative, and kind. For the child's sake be civil and do not play manipulative games even if you do hate your ex for what he did.

From the gist of your postings, I gather that about 80% of your waking hours are spent:

1. Analyzing your husband
2. Figuring out how to get even with him
3. Trying to figure out how to keep your son away from the OW
4. Trying to figure out everything

The bolded part is my goal...which is why I spend so much of my time analyzing my XH and trying to figure out everything.

What happened to 5 word max? Okay, j/k.

I know you are fighting to keep your son away from OW, BUT(you knew there would be a BUT)he has already been around her. It is AWFUL to know that your son spends time around OW. I get that. It SUCKS. You can only control what YOU do.

As far as if you should send your son early, you know why you are wavering. Your giver part wants to say, "Sure." Your taker part, OTOH, wants to say, "F%^& YOU." Maybe the best response is something in the middle, as others have suggested.

Anyone can be dark, you just have to choose it for yourself. It really is much better. The only reason I know is because of the things I feel when I have let the curtain slip.

SM,

Always remember what your goals are which usually get lost in all the pain and drama that the WS creates.

As most BS, we want to protect our kids from the OP because they are not interested in the best interest of our children but their own self entitlement.

Stick with the decree guidelines and then it takes all of the drama from XH.

Not sure if you hate your XH or if you still have love for him which is ok. Nothing to be ashamed of if you do.

Protect your son in the best way you can do with little or no drama in spite of XH...
Work on being the Goddess you are...
Plan your vacation with your son to NYC...

When you start living your live without thinking of what your XH would think then you are detaching by living well with your own little family.

Living well will be the best way for XH to pause and realize what he has lost.

Blessings.

Really? It doesn't seem that way from your posts. It does seem like you want to get even and make him pay - which I understand. However, I have been divorced and been through the child custody battles. It doesn't serve your recovery process in the long run to fixate on your ex or argue over every little detail. If your goal is to run your bank account empty and make your lawyer rich, keep fighting over 15 minutes and barbeque grills. You are not "analyzing" your ex. You are still angry and want justice.

...which is why you need less contact.

I am having trouble letting him go early without engaging in a conversation with XH.

He asked for vacation time this weekend....but it is already his weekend and the only extra he is asking for is from 6:00 p.m. Saturday to 2:00 p.m. Sunday...(ds comes home during that time every weekend that he sees his dad) Now he is asking for another extra day by getting him early on Friday when he is not due to get him until 6:00 p.m. on Friday.

I also let him go early on Friday 2 weeks ago....

I'm just confused....I don't want to set up a situation where ds goes early with his dad every visitation weekend. It interupts our life too much.

So what is the alternative? To let him send me nasty letters via his attorney about violating visitation times and let him bring ds home late if he wants? And then say sure when he wants him a day early? To just let him have what he wants of our marital property? To just let him get away with not paying me alimony for the month of June?

As it has always been...he is a bully and wants everything his way.

I have no love for him. I haven't for a long time. I do think I hate him which is not where I want to be either. I am just trying to do the right thing by my son and I don't think I am.

His attorney says in her letter...

'My client wants the issue of custody and visitation followed strictly.'

Everytime I read that I cannot see letting him have ds10 8-10 hours early.

But when I think of what I naturally want to do---which is cut and past that line and email XH saying, 'I will have ds to your home Friday at 6:00 in order to strictly comply with the custody and visitation order.'

But I don't think that is right either.

The alternative is to treat this as civilly and rationally as possible. You got a nasty letter via his attorney because you tried to stop him from vacationing with his son. He was abiding by the divorce decree by getting a separate room for the POSOW. I understand how you feel. However, you have to be smarter about this and choose battles that you can actually win in court. You knew that you were not in the legal "right" when you told him no. You forced him to bring in his attorney.

Is he a bully because you can't be reasoned with? By your own account, he has been flexible with you. He has also been nasty while doing it. You and he are not nice to each other. It is unlikely that will change anytime soon - unless you have LESS CONTACT.

You will have to live with whichever way you choose. I think that if you went into a plan B and went dark your feelings and thoughts would be much clearer.

No one is telling you to be a doormat. We are trying to figure out how to help you. You did ask for help with this.

If you really want to be different, why don't you try seeing things from a different POV. If the way you were doing things didn't work for you, do something different. You can always change your mind.

Then what would be the right thing for your son? That would be your goal. Need to break down that goal...

Keep your son away from the drama
Have his best interest and happiness always
Be silent to your son about XH
When a decision is made then just tell your son what arrangements are in place.

Our kids sense when we are upset and in turmoil. It does have a negative impact on them. I have learned with DD16 that we do not talk about XH unless she is the one to bring him up. She is in her own Plan B at this time and not sure when or if it will ever change.

Blessings.

How about:
I want to honor the custody agreement but I appreciate that you were flexible at the waterpark and I don't mind if you pick up ds early this weekend. I think it would make ds happy. We can get back to our regular schedule next week.

I don't appreciate the whole waterpark incident! I allowed ds to call his dad and the two of THEM set it up. I had nothing to do with it! Except that I got screamed at about it.

Go DARK. Nuff said.

Oh, but I also wanted to say that your post here made me cry and I am feeling full of rage, so I recognize that you have touched the core of the issue. I know I have to let this go. It is not helping me and it is hurting my son.

How to say in 5 words or less?

ok this weekend. Thank you.

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((SmilingWoman))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

We can see it because we have felt it.

EXACTLY.

LOL

That'll leave him scratching his head.

Me likey too.

That would go into the 5 words MAX category.

SW, you CAN do this. You are GREAT.

You can pick DS up after lunch, I don't mind being flexible, especially if it will make DS happy. We can get back to our regular schedule next weekend.

It's shorter...

I know. LOL....it made me laugh.

This one gets my vote. It's short and sweet, sends the message that she is interested mainly in DS' happiness and puts WXH on notice (without the drama) that they need to stick to the court-ordered schedule as much as possible.

I like this one too. I know it violates the 5 word rule, but it appears to be necessary in this situation.

My point was NO MATTER WHAT YOU CHOOSE...put it in writing. I don't think extra time with DAD is a problem (OW YES...DAD NO).

Sometimes you will not be capable of sticking to 5 words, especially in this sitch. Make sure that it is clear, as I think Marshmallow suggested, that this is veering from the agreement and not a usual occurence.

That's all...otherwise, separate how you FEEL about your WH and the devastation he has caused and do what is best for your son in the present.

I think that the 5 word rule can be bent in this sitch. I think the point is more that "LESS IS MORE." Just stick to the bare minimum.

Would you even consider an IM? Would you consider going dark? I think it would help you.

That is the problem...He wants him early so he can take him on vacation with the OW and OW's son.


What it comes down to is I am agreeing to let him go early even though I know OW will be involved. THAT is what is sticking in my throat. Ds doesn't care though. He is excited to go see his dad...he doesn't care if OW is there. In fact, he told me he thinks it would be more fun with OW and her 5 year old along than it would be with just him and dad. His only problem is he know I am unhappy about it. I have got to quit putting this on ds. I know that. It is why I am on here so much asking for hand holding.


Trying....really, I am.

There is no one I would ask to do this. No one. And even though I do obsess on here quite a bit Scotland, I really have very little contact with him. Two 30 second phone calls yesterday...one sentence each at the door last night. Before that nothing since last Saturday when he emailed me he was exercising his vacation time with ds and I responded asking, 'where are you taking him?'

I am doing ok with the no contact..I do obsess too much.

You can get darker even without an IM. You can have son open the front door all by himself, say bye to dad and shut the door. You stay within reach and earshot, but out of plain sight.

Texts are kept to few words, like "Ok with me". Emails are solely about any settlement or child rearing stuff, no personal information, no anger or resentment. STick to the facts about your settlement or agreement. Don't argue, just stick to the facts. DO NOT TAKE PHONE CALLS unless you know there is no other way to settle the issue.

Any drama will subside if you remove your emotional responses to your WH. If it doesn't, you won't be touched by it much because you will refuse to engage on that level.

Ooooh....I like this! I can do this. Will do this....only trouble with it is that he often brings him home late and I hate not knowing when the door will open. Maybe I could have ds leave me a vm when he is on his way....is that too much to ask of ds?

Okay, look reality here is that my DSx2 see OW EVERY visitation(WH LIVES with OW, so NO avoiding it). It KILLS me, especially when she is in the car(although I shouldn't KNOW, but I DO). Then, DSx2 have told me that she is nice to them. It KILLS. But there isn't a DARN thing I can do to change that. NOTHING.

So instead, I talk to them about it. I don't KNOCK WH or OW. I tell the TRUTH. I tell them that I am not happy about what has happened. I tell them that WH and OW are doing something very WRONG. That it is WRONG to have a gf when you are married and it is WRONG to "date" a married person.

OW has a 11 year old daughter who my DSx2 LOVE. I asked them, "If Daddy came home, would you be sad that you never talked to OWDD11 again?" They said, "Nope." THAT is important. They KNOW what is going on.

Does your DS KNOW what is going on? In a non-emotional way? That is the most important thing you can do right now. Also, this teaches them the lessons you want them to learn.

Here's an even shorter version... minus any personal thoughts of yours.

Pick DS up at 1:00 PM, We'll get back to our regular schedule next weekend.

Nope. Not at all.

SW, do whatever is within your means to stay dark. If it is having your son send you a text or VM, then so be it.

Here's what I have done in the past and to this day, even after the divorce. I will watch for DS's dad's car, when he arrives, I tell DS to get moving. When his dad returns, I do the same, wait to see the car and then make myself scarce. I don't look out at the car, I make sure the door is unlocked and I git.

All within MY control. Even if xWH comes to the door, I am not within sight. He is forced to text or email. It has made things very easy for me and I have learned, after going darker, how to stick to the facts, the 'business' of separation and divorce in a much less emotional way.

Your DS WILL be in contact with OW. It is what it is, and outside of your control. Talk to your DS about right and wrong. I like how Scotland described the sitch to her kids.

VM is good because it will take away any stress DS might have worrying if you are home when he gets dropped off.

Key goal is for your son to not be feeling scared.

Just make sure that you make whatever protocol for visitation CRYSTAL CLEAR with your son. Tell him the procedure, practice it if you must. Get it straight and follow it; make a new handoff routine

It is important to practice and tell him what you want. And the more honest you are with your kiddo, the more he will understand.

I remember when I told DSx2 that WH didn't have to come on the porch anymore. I said, "Okay, when you get dropped off by Daddy, what do you do? Does Daddy come on the porch? What do you say?" DS10 said, "I tell Daddy that since DS7 doesn't need his car seat anymore, he doesn't need to come on the porch." I said, "Yep." The first time, WH didn't come on the porch. Then, the next time, WH was coming. DS7 said, "But Daddy, you don't need to." WH said, "But I love to come on the porch to say good-bye." DS7 said, "Is that because it makes you think about Mommy?" Needless to say, WH doesn't even attempt to come on the porch anymore. I didn't tell DS7 what to say, he came up with that on his own. HE IS SEVEN. Yep, he gets it. They ALL get it.

Another thing DS can to to encourage his father from walking him to the door is to promise to flash on and off the porchlight as a sign to him that he is safe and sound inside.

We know you are!

Oh yes he knows what is going on. I am not sure how 'unemotional' I am. I try to just present the facts (It really upsets me that your dad is taking you on vacation with the woman who he had an affair with---but it is not your fault and there is nothing either of us can do about it.)But it not so easy to keep the emotion out of it.

The emotional sting will abate after you get some distance between you and xWH. Out of sight isn't out of mind, in fact, after I intially went dark I was inundated with thoughts of WH of all that he had done, of things I wanted to say to him, DO to him and OWx2 (or 3 or however many). I began journaling and putting thoughts on MB just to get it out. I never spoke to WH, never communicated these thoughts. The desire to contact him, even just to scream about how horrid an excuse for a human being he was, was HIGH.

The good news is, all of that desire to contact him slowly abated, and now I rarely think about the past with such emotion anymore. I have triggers and can handle them much better now that xWH is out of sight.

xWH has also learned what I will and won't do, and works within those boundaries

It will be easier to be less emotional the darker you go.

You're doing great, SW, you really are.

Keep thinking of different ways to go dark.

How about this instead, "It does upset me that you will be going on vacation with OW. I am glad you get to spend time with your Dad. Do you KNOW why I get upset about OW being around you?" See what he answers. Then you could just tell him that you are just not happy about the person who helped destroy your family gets to spend some fun time with him.

I have talked to my DSx2 about OW being in the car when WH drops them off. I ask if they like it, and they say "No." I tell them to feel free to tell their Dad. They did. His answer, "I need someone in the car for the ride home." I told them to tell OW. I ask them what they would say. DS7 says, "I would say, 'We don't like it when you come in the car.'" I say, "Okay, sounds good. Remember, you can ALWAYS tell Daddy and OW what you feel."

I then say, "Mommy doesn't like it when OW is in the car because it makes me remember what they are doing and how wrong it is. It hurts me. I makes me so angry. I want to yell at them and sometimes I get so mad that I want to hit someone. I won't though. I don't want to go to jail. Hitting when you are mad is wrong." See, lessons in everything.

One sure way to go darker is to NOT discuss the goings on in WH's home. Don't ask questions about what they did that weekend or evening, don't ask questions directed at getting news of WH and OW.

If DS has something to tell you about xWH's house, then I would discuss it with him, but make it clear that you would prefer not to discuss his personal interactions with WH and OW in the future.

(this one is tricky cuz you wanna make sure you are available in case there is something bad going on in xWH's home, so you will have to keep lines of communication open regarding any negative issues in the home)

I also wanted to add that i like the way Scotland says she presents HER issues with WH and OW to her sons. It's much of what I said to DS regarding his father

This one was hard for me at first. I was constantly asking what they ate(because they always came home hungry) and what they did. That was until the day that DS10 said,"Why do you keep asking me questions?" That's when I stopped asking. Now they tell me things, but it isn't much. It is much better now. There are things that drain my LB$ about what WH does/doesn't do with DSx2 so it is better this way.

Brillant, Scotland!!!

Yeah, Scotland, I used to ask all of those questions. I don't do that much anymore. If DS came home hungry, I just gave him food, didn't ask.

Now that things are easier for me, I am able to discuss what DS does during his visitation. It doesn't trigger me anymore, but I am much farther removed from the original pain than you ladies are.

DSx2 do volunteer info but I have told them that hearing about OW is upsetting. They have stopped talking about her too much and sometimes just talk about small things. It doesn't bother me and I don't ask for any more info then they offer. I wear my emotions on my face. When I get upset, although I hold it in, it shows. Strangers can tell I am upset. What still gets me though is when they slip and call me "Daddy." It kills. DS7 did that today. He called out, "Daddy." Then he caught himself and said, "Mommy." It is worse than when they get home from being with WH. As long as they don't call me OW's name, I'm all good.

DS calls me dad all of the time. He just gets used to saying dad when he is with him on his weekends. It takes a few hours for him to acclimate to the home he is in. I don't take it personally.

Oh I don't take it personally, I know what it is. They used to do it all of the time, when WH lived at home. Just when they do it, it makes my stomach sink. I don't ever tell them that. If they called me OW however, I don't think I could hold THAT in. I take a little solace in thinking that they may also call WH, "Mommy." That would be funny, but of course, I don't KNOW.

I do say nearly the exact thing. And he answers that he knows what they did is really bad. And he tells me that he doesn't want to go if I don't want him to go. At that point, I feel like I'm putting too much on him...it feels like I am making him feel bad.

This is what I need to work on. I always start out with good intentions of being upbet and cheery, 'so did you have a good time with your dad?' But spiral down as he tells me things. I thing I will just stop asking any questions but be available if he wants to talk.[/quote]

Just let him know that it is not up to him to make you feel better. You WILL feel better and he is not responsible for your happiness. He is free to choose what HE wants to do. You will be okay with whatever decision he makes in regards to his time with his Dad. You will keep making decisions that you feel are in his best interest until he is old enough to make those decisions for himself. Until then, it is up to you to teach him what the best decisions are. It is your responsibility to teach him the difference between right and wrong because you won't always be there. YES, I do tell my kiddos all of this. It IS the truth after all.

Kids are much more observant than we give them credit for. Your son probably feels like he is the MAN of the house and he needs to take care of you. Let him know that he is still a kid and you can and are taking care of yourself. It is hard sometimes and infidelity hurts a lot of people. It takes time, but you will get better.

I do tell him it isn't his place to make me feel better, but that I am just trying to be honest with him. He asks me today if I wanted him to NOT go and I told him I didn't want him to go and be with the OW, but that I don't think he and I have much choice, so I hope he will have a good time anyway.

One thing that bothers me is that he never seems to be upset at his dad for the way his dad has treated me. Or continues to treat me.

I got up and took ds to BIble study....enjoyed the study and my friends....feel better now. I realized tonight that I really really really don't care what XWH does or who he does it with EXCEPT for how it involves my son. I know there is a group who thinks I am trying to make him pay or that I feed off the drama....but I find myself so relieved that I don't have to deal with him for the most part. I would be thrilled if he went away and never returned. Having to let my son go off with him really eats at me. Especially since he was a horrible father in general pre-separation...he rarely even glanced at ds or took him anywhere...always off with other people. Suddenly he is father of the year by comparison. I hate it.

Okay, maybe I am starting to get it a lot more. It's just what comes off in your posts. Like the reluctance to go dark. I had never in the past worried about DH being able to take care of DSx2. He was a GREAT father. That was one thing people would say over and over again when I was exposing. They couldn't believe that my WH was having an affair because he loved me and our boys so much.

I still think you can be a GREAT mom to your DS and b DARK with your XWH. I only push so hard for it because I know how much better it is than the alternative. I think I may have wound up in the loonie bin before now.

Getting yourself darker WILL be an improvement. Maybe if you see how much better you are feeling with partial darkness, you will take the plunge. Just a thought.

I am darker than you realize I think....but I hope to do even better with the suggestions I've gotten here. My biggest triggers though are not seeing him or even having to talk to him...they are hearing ds talk about him and OW and OW's son..and then the image of ds being with those homewreckers....It is just a lot to deal with.

I think it is the cruelest thing I"ve endured....knowing my son has to spend time with the woman who was sleeping with my husband which caused me to file for divorce.

I also can't get out of my head ds telling me the first time he met her that he was excited that he would have two mommies. He even told me he layed on the bed with her and XH and called her 'mommy'. I flipped totally freakin out....ds apologized and said he didn't know it would upset me so much and he would NEVER call her mommy again...I can't for the life of me figure out WHAT that was about...but it really bugs me. I can just imagine them thinking that was soooooooo funny that ds accepted her so easily. Ugh.

The Mommy thing would KILL me.

My DSx2 met OW on Christmas Day. They ate NACHOS from 7-11 for dinner. My DSx2 thought that was AWESOME. I can't really blame them though, I had asked WH to leave a week before and they hadn't seen him.

I was just reading what you were posting on here and trying to help you out with getting to a better place. I am all about IMPROVING. Glad you are going to try to get a little darker.

I know right? I asked him just now if he remembered that and he gave me a very dark look...I asked him if he had ever done that again...and he said no. I think it embarrasses him now. I don't know what he was thinking. It was strange.


It is helpful. Thank you. I am getting there. It takes me a while...a bit of obsessing....all of that.

Just got this text from XH....I am off work today so you can bring ds anytime.

Ds is not awake yet....It is not even 9:00 here....and I am going to meet my parents in town for lunch....think I will let ds decide if he wants to be dropped of on the way or if he wants to go to lunch with his grandparents first and then go to his dad's. When I figure that out I will respond with 'Be there X time.'

Oooooh and it is 4 words only!

Oh I did want to confirm that he will not be leaving ds in a hotel room alone or just with another kid...do you think I need to do that? His lawyer's letter said something about 'as long as there are separate rooms for the adults' that I have to deal with it...Should I assume her sentence was just wonky or should I confirm what that means?

Also should I ask if he is taking ds out of town? Do I need to know this? If he is taking him to Waterpark it is almost 4 hours away....Or should I just drop him off and not say anything and get him back Sunday.

Hi SM,

You decide the time and then send the text with dropoff.

If XH wants to bend the agreement, he could get a connecting room and have DS and her son sleep there. But you as the mother can ask specifically that XH stay in room with son.

Because what would be the point of having OW in another room if XH is with her. It is the example part that you want enforced.

Did DS tell you where they are going. If that is the case I would not ask.

Did you make plans for yourself this weekend?

I honestly don't think he has the guts to sleep with her knowing ds will know...because WH knows I will be all over that legally. I don't think he will even get connecting rooms because ---wow, now you have me worried about that!

Maybe I should email WXH and discuss with him? Something like, 'If you are taking a girlfriend out of town with ds, please confirm you will have a totally separate hotel room for you and ds10 and that you will not be violating the legal agreement we have in place in any way such as having connecting rooms or leaving ds alone or with another child in a hotel room.'

Is that too much? I'm getting nervous. I don't want to have him do something pushing the envelope and think he can just get away with anything...

Try not to be adversarial in your email. Stick to "please confirm sleeping situation" Don't jump to conclusions or get yourself all worked up over something you don't even know yet.

Once you have the facts you can discuss the agreement. Never assume your WH will interpret or do anything according to how YOU would do it or that he doesn't have the guts to disobey you or any agreement.

OK I just sent an email that said, 'what are the plans for this vacation with ds10?'

Has he replied?

It's too bad you couldn't have gotten all this straightened out before today.

No reply....I didn't reply to his text about me bringing ds over anytime since he is off work today.

the problem with your email is that it is vague. He could respond, "I planned on leaving around 10am, but have been waiting to hear from you..." which does not answer the question of sleeping arrangements. It will skirt the REAL issue you have entirely.

You need to ask what you want to know. Be more specific and pointed without anger.

Stop being afraid to get the information you require.

I don't know, SW, I know you're worried about this trip, but you also said you were confident XWH would not be staying in the same room OW, b/c he KNOWS you'd bust his azz.

It's not easy getting ajoining rooms at the last min. And I consider a week's notice to be last min. But,even if they do have them, what are you going to do? Tell XWH that he can't have ds?

When he gets your email, he's probably going to flip.

Instead of letting him know what time you'll be dropping DS off at, you're still in the "I haven't made up my mind about letting DS go yet" stage.

SW, do you even have the right to keep DS from going on this trip? I would think you only have say in the sleeping arrangements, not as to whether he can actually go.

Since it's obviously too late the for this trip, for the future, ask the questions you want answered, without ambiguity. Your questions are still infused with emotion. Asking what his plans are without being specific is you goading him on...trying to start something.

OK, I was trying to keep emotion out of it...he just replied

<I've already told you once. Canoeing or water park. Something fun.>

So what do I say to that? I am not trying to keep him from going...I just want to know where he is going and what the sleeping arrangments will be. Do I just say that?

"I want to know where he is going and what the sleeping arrangments will be."

Find out what hotel they are staying at and get the room numbers from him or from the hotel. Tell the hotel you are his wife and they should divulge the room numbers. Just an idea.

Getting the room numbers and the hotel will tell you all you need to know.

He hasn't made any concrete plans. You're going to have to "trust" him to abide by your agreement.

There is almost no chance of them getting ajoining rooms at this late notice.

Not really, because it doesn't tell her who slept where and with whom or if the children were left alone and unsupervised.

I first replied, 'Are you taking him out of town to spend the night?'

Then he didn't answer that so I replied again, 'I was hoping you would be able to give me more concrete plans than that.'

What do I do if he refuses to answer me? Do I still take ds early anyway? Do I confirm in an email that he will have a separate room and that ds10 will not be left in a hotel room with out XH?

His reply--

'I am mowing now and have no concrete plans At the moment. When can I expect ds?'

How about if I reply,

'Ok. Please confirm, per our agreement, that if you do spend the night out of town you will have a separate room from your girlfriend (should I say girlfriend or use her name?) and that ds will not be left in a hotel room without you.'

Would that be good?

You know honestly you have no say on whether EXWH takes your son out of town or where because it is HIS visitation/vacation. Most orders also don't carry a clause that say he has to TELL you if that's his plan (although it would be the courteous thing to do).

Additionally, he can tell you anything you want to hear and do the complete opposite and what good will that do? Your only recourse legally, is to file a motion for contempt IF you find out that he slept with OW in the same room or IF he left your son unsupervised. All this back and forth isn't really going to get you anything. KWIM?

Why not just respond about bringing DS early, yes or no. In my opinion, that's the only REAL legitimate issue (not necessarily the only moral one).

He'll reply. Just wait for it.

What would be the point to leaving DS in a hotelroom by himself? DS will tell you that, and then you can bust XWH's azz. If he wanted to get away w/ OW to screw around, he'd do it w/o taking DS along.

In all likelihood, OW and her son will share a room and DS and XWH will share another one.

Even if he reassured you again that he will abide by the arrangement, you'll still be in the same boat. Having to trust that he will do what he said he would.

I know that really, but I'd like to have him say in an email that he isn't going to leave ds alone in a hotel room--or with just another kid. I don't want there to be a chance he will come back and say, 'oh I didn't know I couldn't do that.'

What do you think of me saying what I suggested in my last post above?

I know, but I don't want him to plead ignorance if he does it.

Please edit out my son's name in my posts you guys quoted....sorry!

SW, you really can't control what you XWH does. I know you are feeling anxious about what is going on right now. There is nothing you can do when it is your XWH's time. It sucks.

He can't.

He signed the agreement.

Let this go, SW.

Tell him, "Please let me know if you decide to take ds out of town." And then tell him what time he can expect ds.

The agreement says nothing about leaving ds alone in a hotel room! That is the part I don't want him to plead ignorance on.

So you don't think I should send this--

Ok. Please confirm, that if you do spend the night out of town you will have a separate room from your girlfriend and that ds will not be left in a hotel room without you.

We are just about to head your way.....

I would think I really don't even have the legal right to know if he has taken ds out of town.

If he leaves DS alone in a hotelroom, you can take him to court to answer why.

Why don't you have DS call you when he get's settled and ask him how everything is?

That's true, that's why you asked *please*.

It's just a way of saving face at this point, SW. Ask him to let you know, and then tell him you're on your way.

Ok, good idea..
Thanks.

Grrrrrr..........ds just answered the phone and it was XH!!!!! I yelled at him for answering my phone. Now I feel bad about that. I didn't talk to XH though.

Seems good to me

Sorry - I've been reading your thread SW and have no advice to give, just thought I'd try a bit of levity. Hang in there, hon.

Thanks...I did send my email and he answered back, 'ok, I know the decree.'

There ya go. He knows... now whether he will abide by it is another story. I like the suggestion to call DS during the trip to CASUALLY see how its going, unless you have a specific clause that says you can't. My daughter and her EX are only allowed to call their children during the other's visitation at a specific time and day.

SW, I am sorry that I opened up a can of worms mentioning a connecting room.

I always anticipate the worst and pray for the best, so I am prepared either way.

Save that text about "ok, I know the decree", so if there is any issues you can then take him to court.

The bottom line is that DS will be going away, you have been flexible in dropping him off earlier and document this for future reference.

They will not be staying in the same room as OW

Let DS relax so he will have fun and not have to worry about you.

Pack a pound of the highest sugar content candy you can find and let him drink 3 full glasses of orange juice prior so he will be bouncing off the walls and have to make 3 bathroom stops before they get there.

Let OW get a taste of what life will be with your son and hopefully she will take sides with her son all weekend and XH will take sides with yours.

Now get on those dancing shoes, fix your hair, put on makeup and GET OUT tonight. Blessings

How are you doing, SW?

Here's a good book, I thought you might appreciate, it's called Be Calm My Anxious Heart.

You can pick up a copy here... LINK

I did terrible. I did fair with XH but terrible with ds. All the way to town I said all the wrong things and he was crying and saying, 'why do you try to make me feel this way!'

I am a horrible mother.

I took him to eat with my parents before I met up with XH and dropped him....and I calmed down and hopefully patched things up with ds. In the end I sent him away with a smile and a hug and told him to have a good time.

He was really looking forward to the trip...even mentioning the OW's son, clearly in happy anticipation to see him...I did manage to not ruin that for him. You guys have to realize that he has been around the OW and her son A LOT of XH's visitation in the last 6 months. OW already knows all about ds. I don't really see this weekend being some sort of change in how she feels about XH or my son.

When I was making arrangements of where to meet up with XH for him to get ds, I asked XH if he would please let me know if he decides to go out of town. He said he had no definitive plans but he would let me know. He said, "I've never not let you know where I'm taking him." In about 30 minutes my X-neighbor calls and said that my ds had just been over there saying they were going to Whitewater. And then while I was talking to her, XH beeps in to tell me, 'just found discount tickets on line to waterpark so I am taking him there.' He gave me the hotel name and said he would have him back to me by 8:00 on Sunday. He asked me if I wanted to talk to ds and I said yes. I managed to rally and be cheerful and tell him to have a good time at the Waterpark. Gave him a few instructions about staying safe...and heard his dad in the back ground agreeing with my instructions. Reminded him if he got lost and can't remember his dad's cell phone number to call mine and I would call his dad for him.

Then I went and spent several hundred dollars on a GPS and new IPOD...hoping for a distraction of some sort...went and got paint for a project for ds's room...making it a lego room. Now I am home crying in front of the computer. I have nothing and no one. My son is off with his scumbag father that I know he loves.

All the people I would normally call I'm trying not to. The man I was seeing....that would just open up a door I need to stay closed. OW's BXH...he needs to heal and we just feed off each other....my BIL...you all have said that is a bad idea.....my parents...they are in town and coming by in a bit...but I don't want to see them either....my girlfriends are all married....they of course have real lives.

I know...pity party for SW.

I just hate that my son WANTS to go and HAS to go. I am not of the opinion that any father is better than no father. I would so love to see him NEVER see his father again. And yes, I told ds that today. He looked shocked and said 'why?' I said, 'because of what he has done to me and to you.' There was more...it was ugly...later when I calmed down I asked ds if he was still mad at me...he looks so sweet and says, 'I was never mad at you mom. I'm never mad...sometimes sad, but never mad at you.'

He should be the grown up.

SW, get a hold of yourself and stop these interactions with your son. That poor kid does not need this crap from you. Pitying yourself is not going to help you or him.

Now, with that being said, be gentle with yourself in these moments and take care of you. Sometimes that just may mean learning to quiet your mind and be still. The time that you son is away can be time for you to rediscover yourself.

Trying to dismiss or avoid the feelings is not going to help you, in the long run. You will have to walk through it.

It IS going to be ok, as long as you allow it to, SW.

In a high emotional state, you need to take some deep breaths and keep your thoughts to yourself until such a time that you can talk calmly. You are not a bad mom, but you can become one if you allow this anger to cause you to further damage your son when you can control yourself.

I know. I need to repeat this 50 times between now and Sunday evening. I am determined that when he gets back I don't say one single negative thing to him. I have got to get control of myself or I am going to alienate my son from me.


I have no clue how to do this. I feel hopeless and sad. I would like to make peace with my X, but it so feels like I am once again allowing myself to be trampled on if I try.


I start out talking calmly....like Scotland....but somehow when I start saying the things she says I end up saying so much more. I am going to have to go to the strategy of saying NOTHING and just nodding and smiling when ds tells me stuff that makes me want to react.

Until you are able to control what comes out of your mouth, SW, say very little. If you continue to keep dark, you will feel less impact from your xWH and your loss.

when I have a question on how to do something, the first place i go is to an internet search engine and plug in my question. Usually something comes up to read that leads me to another to another to another.

I would also consider apologizing to your son and letting him know that, although you feel very strongly about what your xWH has done, you will find more constructive ways of talking with him. THen you set about to find a way to do that.

The reason Scotland can communicate so clearly and calmly with her kids is that she is dark and has begun to heal, all by herself. She is able to be honest and open with them without causing them distress. She is able to teach right and wrong clearly and concisely.

Give yourself some time, find ways to get darker, and watch your interactions with DS until such a time that you can control the venom.

Venom is right. I don't even know why ds loves me. WH has said it is only a matter of time before ds gets 'enough of your bs.' Maybe he is right. I just want to crawl in a hole and die to night.

I've spent a year thinking I was doing the right thing.....and it hasn't worked out like I thought it would at all. I did what I could to bust up the affair but it didn't work. Now I wonder if they will stay together. My BIL says it will never work...but here we are a year past D day and they are taking vacations together. With their children.

Ok SW, this is gonna smart a little...but it may work out longer than you would like. Truth is, more often that not it doesn't work out, but it could be years before their relationship ends (it could be weeks, months..., you get the idea). If you want, you can look up statistics on the failure rate of relationships stemming from infidelity and hope and pray that that knowledge will make it all better. IMO, that's a waste of time.

Sooooooo....you could dwell on that, allowing the anger to fester inside of you, seeping into the rest of your relationships, or you can take control of your own life and find a way to deal with the anger, resentment and sadness.

You have a decision to make...

Your DS loves you because you are his mother. The fact that you are drowning in self pity and even asking that question is a bad place for you to dwell. Your DS needs a strong, happy mom.

You are only one year out from Dday, and divorced very quickly. Very swift and devastating. This is all so very fresh for you, so, again, be gentle with yourself. What's done cannot be undone, but you can work very hard to improve your relationship with your son and make your xWH eat his words when you become the safest place for DS.

Accept that it is for now? Accept that my son has to go be with the woman who was sleeping with my husband within hours of ME sleeping with him? I want to scream at XH "How could you do this to me!!!!! THIS part---THIS taking my SON around her. How can you do this to another human being." I did say something similar to him a week ago or so...I said, 'Is there no end to your cruelty?' He doesn't care. I and my feelings mean nothing to him. How can that be? How can he live with me for 25 years and care so little about my feelings?


Honestly, if my son didn't have to go be with them....it would be so much easier. I just want to scream at all these BSs on here who do not have children...RUN AWAY!!!!!

I'm not saying anything about liking the situation, and I'm not saying that you stop protecting your son as much as you can. I'm saying that you learn to deal with your anger and pain.

You arm yourself with whatever legal means you have to keep your son safe, and you learn to deal with the rest.

It's not fair, never will be. I have seen woman after woman march in and out of my DS's life. I cannot control that, but I can control what is done in my household.

How old is your son? How long have you been divorced? Is it easier to deal with the women who weren't the cause of the divorce?

I did just read a statistic that said only 3% of affairs result in marriage. Oddly enough, it made me feel MUCH better.

You have no idea what your xWH thinks or feels. He may very well feel terrible about what he did, but he's not going to tell you...not right now. You have no idea if he can even look at himself in the mirror.

He may be spending lots of time trying to justify what he has done, and any erratic emotional responses from you will give him the ammunition. Remember that your son could very well be telling your xWH about your blowups and interactions.

My son is now 8. This all started when he was 3 years old. The original OW took off back to her husband. Then WH came home, waffled and left, came home waffled and left, came home promising not to waffle...then waffled and left. All the while I was working very hard to change MYSELF and how I dealt with my anger.

I have been divorced for over a year, but I also attempted recovery (suffering false recovery after false recovery) for 3+ years

If the statistics make you feel better, then that is great! Truly.

For me, each time my WH brought DS home and then went back to the OW, no statistic would do.

I found ways to deal with the anger, by reading, by talking to close friends and by journaling. I DID NOT discuss it with DS.

I am a plan driven, solution based person, so it made sense to me to find a way to deal with my anger, because it was eating me alive. I was stress eating, drinking more heavily and crying at the drop of a hat.

Oh, and I don't deal with the women that caused the divorce or any women in xWH's life, so I cannot tell you if it's easier or not. IMO, my husband is more the culprit than the OW, although I do hope OW#1 has suffered greatly since she was party to the original blow to my marriage.

I am honest with myself about my anger, but i don't allow that to taint how I interact with my DS. I am able to talk openly with him about right and wrong and about his father.

When Neaksis was still the temporary guardian of the children she ended up adopting, she had to take them to mandatory "family reunification" visits with their parents. The lead-in was hideous. The rides home, and the aftermath were awful. And on those occasions when mom or dad didn't show? Oh, my word.

But they had to go, in much the same way that your son has to go to see his dad...because the court so ordered. Unless you are willing to go underground, and become a fugitive, you are going to have to fulfill the court mandate as long as your XH is willing to come and see his son. There is no legal way out of this for you right now. And if your son ever spills the beans to his dad about your meltdowns, questions, and mood swings (natural responses to your XH's cruelty, I agree!), he can take you to court and present himself as the "sane," "normal," "rational" parent, and try to get custody. If you think what you're enduring now is hard, think about that for awhile!!!

I don't know how it will work best for you to get your emotions under control and deal with the crappy hand life has dealt you out. I DO know you need to find a way, or things may take a twist that you will definitely like even less than where you are now. Judges purely HATE to have their orders ignored, or undermined. I fear you're starting to skate perilously close to the edge. You need to pull back.

tl

How do you talk honestly to him about his father without saying you wish he never had to see his father again?

I know I am looking crazy right now. I know son's natural loyalty is to me right now....but that will not last forever...I will drive him away if I keep this up. I am not saying I act this way all the time...but I am with him enough I have GOT to get control of myself.

The good news is I drove him to his father and allowed him to go spend the weekend with him knowing he was going out of town on vacation with the OW. I did not violate any order at all. I even took him to his dad 4 hours early.

I'm not saying you're crazy. I think you're dealing with unbearable pain. It's just that we've been through the legal system with custody issues, where we had to do things we KNEW weren't helping the kids...because the judge said so. And I don't want this to boomerang on you. That's all.

tl

I talk to son about lying and how *I* feel about it. I talk about the fact that his father lied to me and that it destroyed my trust in him.

For me, because OW#1 took off, and DS was so young, his experience is different. He meets dad's 'friends' and they move in and out of his life. He was never forced to live with OW. I pushed his dad to keep OW from living with him, and he chose to comply as he bounces from woman to woman.

Thank you. I do know you are trying to help. I have got to get control of myself.

And it is unbearable pain.

My best friend was pregnant when she finally left her very WH. She had to send her dsnewborn to WH who was living with OW....She had a hard time for the first 2 years...then she remarried and things got much easier....I have been thinking about how much easier it would be to be sending a newborn off with WXH....newborn couldn't understand....wouldn't know how bad I'm hurting....My ds was 9 when this blew up. He has known all the highlights since just before WH moved out.

What does your son say when you talk about how his fathe lied and destroyed trust? I guess what throws me is that when I talk to ds about it calmly he still acts as if it doesn't bother him..it is only when I melt down that he gets upset. Why isn't he more upset by how his father treated me? By what his fathe did to us both?

I would listen to tl.

You are saying yourself that you need to get this under control. What do you think you can do this weekend to begin to deal with the anger?

For me, I liked to read and to be active to keep my mind busy. I started cleaning the house up, redecorating where I could, finishing projects that needed tending to.

I started with reading "The Language of Letting Go" by Melody Beattie.

DS acknowledges what I am saying. Usually, I am talking to DS about something HE did wrong, and then he says "That's why you left daddy, 'cuz he lied to you". I usually use it as a time to teach and to clarify that I won't be leaving him if DS lies, but he will have swift consequences.

Be very careful, SW, about your interactions with your son. You are blurring the lines here when you expect him to act as you do, and that you have to escalate your emotional response to get a reaction out of him.

He is the child, and should be treated as such, not as an adult. You could very well be confusing him. He doesn't have the coping skills of an adult, and therefore does not DEAL in the same way as an adult would, nor react in the same way. He may very well be trying to avoid making your emotional state worse by clamming up.

Your DS should not be the shoulder to lean on, SW. He should be leaning on YOU. Stop trying to elicit some response from him, to get him to feel sorry or bad for you. That's not fair and is dangerously close to abuse

Have you thought about your son's identity being tied up with his mom and dad. If his dad could be so horrible, does that make DS horrible. Is HE, the child, to blame for the divorce because he was so horrible? Your DS could be thinking these things...

Ok....I bought paint...friends committed to coming over Sunday after services to help me with that project. I bought a new IPod so I can go run and have my stuff on NIKEPlus....

I do have work to do around here...pics to hand etc.

And just now God spoke up to me.....the phone rang...it is my paranoid schizophrenic brother who is institutionalized.....saying....sister...can you come tomorrow and buy me some snacks? And a key for my room? It costs $3....

And for those of you are saying to themselves 'ah I see the crazy gene...'....:) He isn't biologically related to me. He is actually my half brother's half brother....but he thinks I am his sister and I live close by and do what I can for him. It is helpful to remember that I don't have it that bad. I could be 46 years old and living in an institution.

I am very dark and that does a WORLD of good. That is why I push so hard for other people to go dark and stay as dark as possible. I see what happens when even a little crack appears. I see how it throws me.

Your son loves you because you are HIS MOM. Your son loves your XWH because he is his DAD. I was horribly physically and emotionally abused by my Dad growing up. I still love him and I always have. I learned a lot from those experiences though, good and bad.

You need to find a different way to get your anger out. I know you don't want to tell your DS about what is going on and have him as your support. I know that you are a good mom. The fact that you recognize that you don't want to do it and feel badly when you do tells me that you are a great mom. You have made mistakes. I HAVE MADE MISTAKES. The thing is, you need to show your DS what people do after they make mistakes. How they tell someone they are sorry, and then change the behaviour so they don't repeat the mistakes. Remember? There are lessons you are teaching your son all of the time. That is how I deal with each sitch.

Have I ever said too much to my DSx2? Probably. Usually, it is because I became overwhelmed. I still have boundaries I will NOT cross. Things I will NOT say. If I feel like I have gone too far, I will tell them that I am sorry. That I should not have said things like that and that it isn't their fault. They need to learn how to deal with things that make them angry. Your DS needs to learn how to deal with people that make him angry.

Do you have people who can really support you IRL? Do you have a friend who you could call and just cry, or scream about what has happened. It ISN'T fair. NONE of us wanted this to happen to us. NONE of us deserved to be treated this way. You can either let the anger consume you, or you can work through it, teach your son some lessons and MOVE FORWARD.

Like SL said, you can't go around the feelings, they will always be there. You need to work through them and deal with them. I have yelled many times(when alone). I have cried and sobbed in my bed at night. I have had tears streaming down my face in the shower as I looked up to God and said, "Why?" I have spent HOURS talking to my friends on the phone(when DSx2 were asleep) or in person in my friends van in my driveway. I also know that the anger will eat me alive. I don't let myself get too angry. It's not easy, but I have to try.

This may sound a little funny but when I first had kids, I said that I just wanted to try to make sure they didn't have to go to therapy for years because of how I raise them. THAT helps me figure out how to deal with them. I MAKE mistakes. NO ONE is perfect. Learn from your mistakes and move forward. Show your DS how someone can be incredibly cruel towards you and YOU will still be kind. Also, kids eventually figure out on their own exactly who their parent is. You won't need to teach him THAT lesson.

I know. I feel abusive. I feel horrible tonight. I wish I....didn't exist.


I do think it is possibel that his idenity could be tied to his father...if dad is bad and I bad too...not so much that he thinks he is to blame for the divorce though. I've been clear on that.

When my parents divorced I aligned myself closely with my mother. I didn't care if I ever saw my dad again. And I rarely did. I guess I just can't see how ds wants to see his father after all this.

THAT is stinkin thinkin. You made a mistake, SW. What do you think you should do in it's aftermath to correct the problem and move forward?

Your son needs you. He loves his father, SW. He doesn't want to suffer MORE loss.

Think about why you 'aligned' yourself with your mother. Was it something she said to you? Was it interactions that you witnessed between mom and dad? Did you come to this decision unbiased?

He will figure out what kind of a man his father is all on his own, because his father will reveal it to him .

I did apologize, but will do so more calmly when he returns and also STOP what I'm doing. I have to let him enjoy his time with his dad and even with OW and her son.


I do have people....but I am sick of leaning on them. I am sick of saying the same thing over and over for a year. I just want to be free of this. I want it to end. It seems it will only end when I just accept that I lose. But I guess I have to lose to be the mom I want to be.

Like SL said, you can't go around the feelings, they will always be there. You need to work through them and deal with them. I have yelled many times(when alone). I have cried and sobbed in my bed at night. I have had tears streaming down my face in the shower as I looked up to God and said, "Why?" I have spent HOURS talking to my friends on the phone(when DSx2 were asleep) or in person in my friends van in my driveway. I also know that the anger will eat me alive. I don't let myself get too angry. It's not easy, but I have to try. [/quote]

I have spent a year talking to my friends. I've got to stop. I've got to stop thinking and discussing it. I have things to keep me busy this weekend...I do things like I'm a robot....but I figure at least I'm productive. Paint ds's room. Take care of mentally ill 'brother'. Do service work. Go to religious services.

Maybe someday when ds is gone with his dad I will have fun and enjoy my free time.

You may. I mostly do try to enjoy my time. I sleep in and generally relax more. I also read and take care of business, errands, shopping, etc.

I ALWAYS think about DS being with his dad and what they may be doing and who with. I don't do it constantly, but I am further removed from the pain than you are SW. I have been in a form of Plan B since I separated two and a half years ago.

The only times I am away from my DSx2 is when they are at school(it's summer vaca), or when I am at work(not much fun there). I actually need to start having a life away from them, because I don't want to follow DS7 to college(although he says he is NEVER moving, oh I pray he is WRONG tehehehe)

The Zombie state of just being is a coping mechanism. It is a way to get through grief. At some point you have to grieve though. Have you ever truly grieved? Things happened so fast for you. Is there some symbolic way that you can grieve the life you had, the life you thought you would have? By burial or cremation? Then move forward. I am making sure I say, "FORWARD" and not "On" because it will always be a part of you.

I'm kind of a homebody, so I like to watch movies and sit out on the deck, just listening to the birds and sounds of children playing, cars driving by and lawn mowers whirring.
I read, sometimes bake, cook and talk talk talk to whoever will listen (when I'm in a talking mood)

When I still owned my own home, I would garden and make the yard pretty, take care of my pool and hot tub and enjoy the fruits of my labor.

You are still so close to Dday, SW.

I know I sounded harsh earlier, but you need to take control. I understand what you are going through and how painful this all is. One day at a time. Some days you will just work to get one foot in front of the other. As long as you choose it, better days will come

I'm sure you read what Melodylane went through ten years ago. The death of her son and then her marriage and then her other son went to live w/ his father and OW.

I can't think of anything worse to have to go through all at once. But, she told me the only thing that helped her get through it at the time was exercise. She just threw herself into it. And stopped going to support groups b/c they kept her focused on her pain.

So, in a way you're right, you've got to stay busy. Maybe take up exercising like Mel did. Exercise until you are too tired to think about your sorrow.

Maybe you could pick up the book I recommended or the one Sil did. You could read a little bit of it right before bed so you fall asleep thinking over what they say.

In the meantime, go easy on yourself, SW, you've been through a terrible trauma. You're just trying to find your way out to the otherside. You will get there!

((((((((SW))))))))

Also, have you thought about going to the DRs and seeing if you can get on some ADs? Something to help take the edge off for you?

I started exercising too (walking). I took better care of myself, in general.

I took AD's for a while, but it was exercise that seemed to help ME the most. Each person is different. I also didn't stop talking about the pain, the anger, with my closest friends. I would post here, too. I would read here too, so as to not feel my sitch was so 'special'. That would spurn me on to work harder on healing, especially when I read about others who had come before me recovering.

I'm voting for the FIRE!

tl

Me too but it depends on what it is. I thought of it like a symbolic Phoenix rising sort of thing.

I know it is bad thinking...I am not exactly suicidal...I just want to disappear. I know I can't though....I know it would devastate my son because I do know *I* am who he depends on.


I doubt we come to any decision unbiased...I witnessed my father being in the wrong. I don't really remember a lot of discussion from my mom....she was of the school of not bad mouthing kid's father...I hated him because he made my mom cry. I was 8 when they divorced. My brother was 3 and he didn't 'get' how bad my father is until he was well into his 30s.


Yeah, that is if I don't turn him TOWARD his father before then.

I don't know. Tell me. Apologize when he comes home Sunday evening? Shut my mouth in the future? I know I haven't done irrepairable harm...but I have to back up and stop the harm and move forward.

I need the words. And the actions.

Poor little thing....he tried to dry his eyes and he said, 'I'm looking forward to our trip to visit (my sister) in August. Aren't you? We will have fun right? What do you want to do most when we go to NYC?'

Your son is trying to make it all better for you. He's stuck in the middle.

I don't think you should keep quiet about what your xWH did wrong, but I do think the crying and any attempts of manipulation of your DS need to stop. Allow him to feel and react as he does.

You should apologize for your behavior, but not for believing what your xWH has done to your family is wrong.

Have you given your son permission to love his dad? It is important that he knows that he doesn't need to choose between the two of you. That you will ALWAYS love him.

You've been a huge help to me tonight. I've been sobbing...dried my face when I knew my parents were about to stop by..I'm dry now...and feeling some better.

I have a problem with when to stop. I am fine with the fact that I don't lie to my son about what happpened...I just don't know when to shut up. THAT is my problem. So until I can control myself a bit, I do just need to SHUT UP. SMile, bite my tongue.....smile some more, bite my tongue....hug my ds....and move on.

I did tell him I didn't think it would always be this bad.

I am thinking of writing XH a letter trying to call a truese. He has said things to ds he shouldn't have...discussing legal stuff and all that...I'd like us to both shut up and be more gracious...I'd like all the other junk to go away that is in that nasty letter from his attorney.

Don't know if that is a good idea or not.

Mostly I have. Today I sucked. Today I actually said, 'I wish you never wanted to see your dad again.'

Yeah, bad mother of the year.

NOPE HUMAN MOTHER OF THE YEAR.

IMVHO, it would be horrible to write to your XWH about not talking to your DS. Besides, how would you keep it under 5 words?

Seriously, SW. You need to get out of the drama and stop creating more. You have had a few bad days. My suggestion?(not that you asked for it). Get off of the computer and go DO something. Don't come back for a couple of days. Take some time away from THIS drama and focus on the things you CAN control. You CAN'T control your XWH and you can't control your DS.

GO HAVE SOME FUN. THAT'S AN ORDER.

Ok. I agree. Off the computer and on to real life.

Thanks all. Feel free to post....I will be back on Monday to post an update.

At A Gurl. GO LIVE.

Right on! Enjoy your weekend!

DO NOT WRITE TO YOUR xWH. Dark dark dark.

Smiles - did you download The Art of War and start reading it yet?

Mama Thunder gave you some tremendous caution and advice. This can always get worse and will unless you do some serious course correction.

Your son becomes the casualty of every open skirmish you have had with your WXH, and it will continue until you learn The Art of War. So it is imperative that you learn to fight your battles a different way so that you remove harm to your son as a consequence of you losing control. Especially because your intention is to protect him.

You misread his loyalty and love to his father as disloyalty and lack-of-love to you. And as a result you teach him to choose between two people he was wired from birth to love and be loyal to. You put that love into him from the womb.

As you gain control of yourself this weekend, it's time for you to become a new woman. You have exactly 1.5 days to do this.

When you apologize, you don't even bring up your son's father or OW or OW son. Instead you hold out your hand and tell your son that you are sorry for losing control of yourself and that it will not happen again - pinky-promise. And mean it and follow through.

Spend at least one hour a day investing in studying and practicing The Art of War. Supplemental books that teach mental toughness include "Excuse Me Your Life is Waiting" by Lynn Grabhorn, "Think and Grow Rich" by Napoleon Hill, "You Were Born Rich" by Bob Proctor, "Working With The Law" by Raymond Holliwell" and "Toughness Training for Life" by Jim Loehr. In this order! AFTER you read and study "The Art of War!"

There's very little in these books that speak directly to the issues you are having with your x. Instead they talk about an emotional mastery that focuses the mind exclusively on what you want rather than on what you don't want.

I heard Tony Robbins tell it this way: If what you focus your attention on were a bungee cord that is connected to you physically and to that point of attention, you're going to get pulled toward it. If it's something you don't want with all your heart, the more passionately you don't want it, the more you are pulled into that vortex. Just like the further you stretch a bungee cord, the more powerful the snap back. You have to disengage the bungee cord from the "I don't want that" target and attach it to the target of "I want that".

If you will spend AT LEAST your first 30 minutes a day studying from these books and the Bible, and the last 30 minutes of the day as well. If you can give more time then do it. You are trying to retrain deeply deeply ingrained auto-responses to evil stimulus from your x. You HAVE to give this much attention to changing those auto-responses to something YOU CHOOSE because if you don't - and your subconscious mind fires an auto response you can't control because you haven't practiced, you WILL LOSE CUSTODY! You know that this is the inevitability of you not changing and I think that's what frightens you so much about what you did today.

You can do this. You were strong enough to say No to his abuse of your marriage last year (more than just the adultery); you can remove your buttons so far that he will never be able to push them again. That's the beauty of having an Art of War game plan.

I read your post twice and then again. I've downloaded A of W and will read closely in the a.m....

Called XH....he said they had just arrived and he let me talk to ds...he gave me the room number but I forgot to write it down...called back SEVERAL times....an hour later he answered and I spoke briefly to ds. Was cordial and kind to XH and especially ds both times....

I will get up in the a.m. and read Art of War....and my Bible...focus focus focus.

Thanks all.

Oh yeah.....suppose to be off here.

YES dear, you ARE.

Your son will be okay and he will be home Sunday. Do something to better yourself and for yourself between now and then. NOW GIT.

SW, Hopefully you are not peeking to see the advice till Sunday.

You are too emotional to either speak/write to your XH or your son.

I think if you start another conversation with your DS even to apologize it will get out of control.

Be still.

When DS comes home.

Only question you may ask? Did you have fun.

Only listen. tune out anything about XH.

Don't ask about sleeping arrangements, don't ask for every detail.

Otherwise it will be a no win situation for your son. Only be concerned for your son's well-being instead of the A between XH and the OW.

You do not want your son worrying about you why he is with his father. You don't want your son to feel guilty because he still loves his POS XH.

Make a point to tell DS about something fun YOU did even if you have to embellish.

Have a smile and funny story ready. Pretend you are picking him up from a friends house.

You can do this

Neaksis is down from MT to help me pack for our move in a couple of months. She read this over my shoulder and said, "That's BIG Mama Thunder to you!"


This is what I worry about. The conversations described may start out with emotional control, but they very quickly devolve. Unless you can say, "I'm sorry I got so upset on Friday, OK?" and then immediately get off the subject, I think you should not bring it up until you're sure you can keep a handle on your feelings. And whatever you say, whenever you say it, should be short, to the point, about YOU (not him or his dad). The pinky promise is a nice touch.

tl

Good Morning, SW.

Did you know God's mercies were new every morning?

Yup, says so right here...

"This I recall to my mind, therefore have I hope. It is of the Lord's mercies that we are not consumed, because His compassions fail not. They are new every morning: great is Thy faithfulness."
- Lamentations 3:21-23

Love that verse!

God's compassion is new every morning. They are fresh in our lives every day. They are in full strength. They do not deteriorate, spoil or go stale.

AND, the Bible says He is RICH in mercy.

What a wonderful thing to be rich in, huh? I'd rather serve a King who was rich in that than rich in anything else.

Have a great day!

SW, your child is learning that his mom has no boundaries with him. you are going to cause damage to the boy that he will have to get 20 years of therapy for.

You have been dealing with your ex for a year now yet you still react in infantile ways and then the son cannot have a MOTHER, he has a person with no boundaries that he has to live with.

Please get a hold of yourself for your precious son's sake. If you have to tell yourself to accept the other woman and welcome her seeing your son, then it would be better than what you are laying on your son every day and every hour.

It is not just about YOU AND YOUR FEELINGS> It is about the son having a mentally healthy home to be raised in. So keep your home mentally healthy and act like the ADULT that you are and quit whining and crying. Be glad you are away from that husband and start discovering boundaries between you and the son.

Next, that poor son will become a "substitute husband" for you. He already is that in many ways. You are going to turn him dysfunctional and you will not even realize it when it is happening.

It is happening now, can you see it?

Please get a hold of yourself, get some IC, get this resolved in your mind so you can quit laying it all out on your young son. He has had years of this garbage, why should he put up with 4 or 5 more years of it.

Please help yourself cope maturely to every situation so you can be an effective mom for that precious boy.

SW,


I've been very busy for a few days.

I can see that you have been busy, too.



Read back thru the posts, to about Wednesday. There is plenty of back and forth between yourself and yourself (no typo there) about your

EX

and what he is up to
what he is thinking
why he is doing what he's doing

and all the rest.


I think I know why.


You are at about one year post d-day.

At about this point, the whole deal comes back at you, with a vengeance. Doesn't matter if you are married, in Plan B, separated, trying to reconcile, working on a great recovery plan, or anything else.

Still seems to be about the same reaction with every BS, at about a year or so - give or take - after d-day.


We get angry, we return to that hurt place, we return right back to that place where it all began, to that moment of discovery and that point at which our life crumbled and would never be the same again.

An anniversary date that hits hard that first year around. Very hard.

For you, there are some extras involved that many on the boards aren't necessarily dealing with. Your husband and you divorced rather quickly, yours was a long marriage, and now the OW and he are still in your face on a regular basis due to the fact that you and the XH have the custody sharing deal.

You cannot get away from him, in any real sense.

The fact is that whether you stayed with him, or separated from him, or divorced him, you would still be going through the same phases of "recovering" from the affair. The same sorts of feelings, the same kinds of timelines - the anniversaries are the same, in many senses of recovery, as if you had remained together and tried to reconcile. I hadn't caught that at first, but now I that I have, I can see why there is an upturn in the drama factor, and the heightened concern added to the situation that you are in (that isn't to say that your situation doesn't already have enough factors to consider!).

So, HOW do you get yourself past all of this?

And HOW do you get yourself back to - what passes for "normal"? At least to where you can find yourself not losing it emotionally with ds, and how do you repair what happened before the trip with ds?

next post.

SB

First, how to repair what happened with ds.

My advice is to keep it simple. Your ds spoke words of wisdom when he asked you about your upcoming trip to New York. What he was trying to do was tell you that


He loves you AND his father. That he is in the middle, that he understands what has happened between the two of you. And, that he has to have

both of you in his life.

He cannot CHOOSE one over the other.

He was asking you to see the balance - that he is GIVING of himself to his father by going on the trip with him

and

ALSO to you by going to New York.


He wants you to see that. He asked you to see HIS sacrifice. He knows what the OW and his father have done, he sees your pain, and he completely understands the situation.

He also knows he is in no position to control it. The choice he has made is to try to deal with it by "making" you happy, and his dad happy - by doing what each of you ask him to do....comply with trips, visitations, meet other people, try to understand the points of view of each parent. Lots to ask of a kid his age. And he is doing a great job of it.


So, now, your job?

To tell him that he has done a good job, and that YOU won't ask him to do it anymore.

Your end of the pressure cooker will be eliminated - as of the apology.

You say:

"The other day before your trip I was completely wrong when I said I didn't want you to ever see your Dad again. I shouldn't have said that. I was angry, upset, and just plain weak. Sometimes when people are feeling this vulnerable they say things they do not mean, and then regret saying them. This is one of those times, and I do regret saying it. Please know that I did not mean it.

I also want to let you know that I am working harder on not being as emotional regarding my relationship with your father. My plans are to get better at working through things with him so that your life can be more pleasant and happier. My goal for us is to have a strong relationship with one another, and for you to be able to one day be a healthy, independent adult. I'm sorry I was so emotional, and I don't plan to do that again."



Don't go into "why" you lost control, justifying it, explaining the situation, none of that. You don't need to. Just tell him that you plan to STOP IT.

And then


STOP. IT.

SB

SW,

How do you get back to feeling "normal" after the affair????


1. Time. It just takes time. You are past the one-year mark, just barely, and that means the rollercoaster and flashbacks will begin to level out. But you are also dealing with a divorce, which means you have to deal with the ride that throws in the works, too. Time brings about some help, but you have to expect to ride it out.

2. Time for yourself. You have to build in time to grieve, time to focus, time to pamper, time to just be free, time to do the things you enjoy, and time to not do anything at all. This is hard to do, but if you look at your day in terms of 10 minute slots, you can find those little minutes and use them - for YOU. I found that if I put away a few little "times for me" and used them, I felt better at the end of the day, even if those times were only 10 minutes!

3. Time to be angry. This one seems loony, but hear me out. I got over being angry by focusing on BEING ANGRY ON PURPOSE. Yep. It seemed like I spent lots of time drifting off and finding myself getting angry about the affair. So, I set aside "time to be angry", and sat myself down and said, "Okay, now, focus on the affair. Think about the affair right now, and get your MAD ON." Funny, but it was HARD to get angry when I focused on it, but EASY to do when I was drifty. After a week or so of "time to be angry" and focusing my anger on the affair, that anger level tuned wwwwaaaayyy down. I spent my anger bucks fast.

4. Tune down the drama. I found that I spent a lot of time focusing on talking and thinking "affair". For you, it seems you spend lots of time talking and thinking about the WXH/OW relationship, custody, visitation, etc., and how this has impacted your life. The contacts with WXH then escalate because the emotional level within you is already primed because of the thought process that has taken place prior to the contact. In other words, you have anticipated much of the emotional content - even before WXH contacts you. You are emotionally charged before the contact takes place - and therefore read into his contact your ready emotional state, and respond with defensiveness or anger, or whatever state you have predetermined.

It is a no-win situation, because you may not actually "read" his communication correctly, given the pre-primed emotional state you are in.

Thus, to dial down the drama, you must reduce your contact and communication level with your WXH. It is the only way you will be able to dial down the emotional priming that is happening with you.

The less you see of him, the less contact you have with him, the less you will THINK ABOUT HIM. This should reduce the emotional charge inside of you, and therefore help your state of mind regarding visitation schedules, furniture issues, and the like.

Once you are indifferent towards him(more or less), you can return to a more casual interaction level, and you will find yourself much more in control.

In the return drama with WXH. And he, the drama queen, is thriving on it. You are meeting an emotional need for him, and you need to stop. It is draining YOU. It is hurting YOU (and ds).


5. Change the way in which you play the game with WXH. Look at how ds is dropped off, picked up, etc. If you can have someone else do it, then change things. DS can certainly walk himself from car to door, he is old enough, and you can watch from window (flash the porch light, good idea, my girls did that for their dates in bad weather). Keep emails VERY SHORT - reword everything - think TELEGRAM.


6. If you must talk to him on the phone, and he begins to yell, you say, "I called to speak about X. If you wish to yell I will hang up. Do I need to hang up?" If he continues to yell, remind him calmly. On the third try, say CAALMLY, "Please call me to to talk about X when you find no need to yell at me. I will be most happy to talk then. Let me know when you are ready. Good-bye, WXH." And HANG UP.

Follow up with a polite email: "Let me know when you are ready to talk calmly about X. It was difficult for me to be yelled at, but when you are ready, I'd be happy for you to try again. Sincerely, SW" Puts him on notice that you have it in writing, that you are not going to be yelled at, and that he is in time-out...also that HE has to let YOU know when the time is to talk again. Not your issue anymore.


7. Control. One of the hardest things to learn was that I only controlled one person in the relationship - and that was myself. There were many times that I thought I didn't even control myself (like, I lost control a lot!), but I learned over and over that if I just controlled my actions, my reactions, and my message, I could handle ANYTHING.


Control your actions, your reactions, and your message.




SB

Schoolbus, great advice and counsel to SW. Control -- the toughest battle but the most effective.

SW, today is my 2 year D-Day anniversary. I did not even cry. Time does make such a difference.

I am looking out of different eyes these days. Yes, it changes you. This is the club no one wants to belong.

But please believe it will get better. Read the 5 million pages of my thread. I was (sometimes am) the queen of obsession.

Today I am in a much healthier place. I cannot save XH, I don't like this man and the woman he has chosen is much less.

I love my old husband, the guy who my DD called her hero, the guy who would have run in a burning building to save his family, the guy who was so ethical and truthful to a fault. If he ever returns I will know it.

Do I fall down some days -- absolutely but they are getting to be farther and few. I have regained my confidence and I have never looked better. These changes never would have happened without all of this A garbage.

You are blessed with a loving wonderful son. My daughters have been my rock. I owed it to them to stand strong again. You will get to that place.

Hope you had moment of happiness this weekend, even if it was to see a beautiful sunset while sitting outside.

You can't change the wayward, only yourself.

Blessings

I was just telling my Mom this today. I said, "Here is the eternal optimist in me, but I would never had started improving myself had WH not had an affair and I be forced into this sitch." Not like I am gonna send him a thank-you card. THAT would be pushing it.

Yeah... like that book title "My Husband's Affair Became the BEST Thing That Ever Happened to Me."

I can think of thousands -- no MILLIONS -- of things that I'd consider "best" than my H's affair. I'd choose a root canal -- it saves my tooth, it eases my pain, it costs money BUT it's over relatively fast.

Like childbirth.

I'd choose being PREGNANT at 47 over living through an affair.

Because -- like you guys, Scotty and Hope -- my H's affair keeps giving and giving me GRIEF!!!

Need to contact Emily Post and ask what the proper way to thank the gift that keeps on giving. Maybe we should all send a thank you know to the POSOW and say "please enjoy my leftovers, my H has never looked worst while I look like a Goddess. Here is a cookie".

HH as for having a baby at 47? Immaculate conception?? I just watched some television program where one woman was 65? 53? whatever. Stranger things have happened!

SW sorry forthe tj

Feel free to tj anytime...:)

I know I promised to stay off, but I couldn't do it totally. SB's posts helped me sooooooo much. I copied and printed off what I am to say to ds when he returns and I have even been practicing it. I've also been working on getting my heart ready to not only ACT different but BE different.

I went to bed last night around 11 and cried myself to sleep...woke up to a text from OW's BH...he asked me if I am 'watching from afar.' A quote I got off here...from SB I think about how to just watch and wait FROM AFAR as WH and OW blow themselves up. I told him, 'trying. Sucks.' That was all that was said about our WXspouses...he gave me an update on his professional success and said he would chat with me today because he was going to crash. I was proud of myself for refusing to start up a big old conversation with him about what had transpired.

I was due to be at a volunteer site at 9:00 this morning. I woke up at 3 and could'nt sleep so took a mild pill....I woke up at 8 with swollen eyes, a headache, and ZERO desire to go volunteer for ANYTHING. Then I remembered that helping others is a great way to keep from feeling sorry for oneself..so I jumped up and went....my eyes were horrible looking, but thankfully no one commented. Came home a 12 and then went and took my mentally ill 'brother' to the store for snacks. Then I went to tan, got gas in my car....got a pedicure. Came home...studied my lesson for services in the morning....took my dog for a walk and then gave her a bath. Now I've had my shower and I'm sitting down with a bowl of fruit and a glass of wine.

I feel MUCH better tonight.

Something amusing...and helpful....one of my Xneighbors is OWs boss. My ds was well known on our small street....he had a tradition of carting everyone's trashcans back to their garages after trashpick up. He did it in rain, snow, heat...whatever. Several would give him money which was an added bonus. OW's boss's wife often commented on my FB page how wonderful of a kid he was..and just before we moved she gave him a $20. Well, last night and today a good friend posted on my FB wall 'are you ok?' I made a few comments on there....one being 'the law is wrong that forces a mother to send her child off with the woman who broke up child's family.' My friends were consoling me, encouraging me...and I posted this afternoon that I felt better and listed all that I had done for myself today...well Boss's wife posts on there! She made some comment about turning a situation around and making it into something good is a God thing. I feel fairly confident she knows ALL about OW and I also feel fairly confident she is on MY side...she is a first and only and long time wife...

So, now it is almost 9 and my day tomorrow will be full..if I can force myself to sleep tonight and get going in the morning....ds will be home before I know it so I can get to the business of apoligizing to him and STOPPING my hysterical and bad mothering.

You are all lifesavers.

I am so glad you feel better. Although I told you to GIT, I was hoping that you had read SB's posts. A little part of me(okay it is a HUGE part but HEY) is envious of other people who get attention from SB. SHE is GREAT.

I like how you did some things for yourself. Stay out of the drama and become very unemotional in your dealings with your XWH. I think you will see a real change. Did you read the art of war yet? BTW, what colour did you get on your tootsies?

I was glad I cheated and got to read SB's posts to me too. She is Gold. She just makes me feel like I can actually DO this. Be a better mother.....stop the endless obessing....all that...

I have downloaded ART of War and started reading it...It feels difficult to read....but I am going to keep working at it. A few things did pop out at me...

My toes are GOLD!! Bronzy Gold.

Scotland, you have amazing self control in your personal life...the way you deal with your mom is just short of brilliant.

I had the benefit of a sort of Plan B against my parents when I was 20. We didn't talk for one full year. It was scary at first, but it really showed me that I didn't NEED them anymore. Funny thing is, I took solace in having my WH. Now, I have my kiddos and my Dad(my Mom sort of). Realizing that I didn't NEED them helped me establish my own boundaries. I want them in my life, so they are.

Don't get me wrong, I have yelled at her a couple of times. I TOO lose my cool. MB has helped me with EVERYONE though. BTW, I work at the customer service counter in a MAJOR retailer. I have a lot of practice with angry people looking for conflict and how to stay calm.

Can somebody please repost the link to Art of War? I was gonna bookmark it and then download and I can't find it again. UGH!! Please??

http://scienceofstrategy.org/main/content/art-war-pdf-download-translation-only

More heavy reading for you Cami? There is also a thread about it.

Here, http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2279149&page=1

LOL. I guess so huh? Gives me something to occupy my mind.

Hey, glad I actually helped somebody this week!




Good thing to hear in the morning! And I'm happy to hear SW smiling...at least in her posts.

I read an interesting scientific study yesterday. It said that if you pose your goals in the form of a question, rather than in the form of a statement, you are more likely to achieve a higher level of completion. For example:


Instead of "I will control my emotional outbursts"

state it as

"Will I control my emotional outbursts?"


The idea is that it goes to the cognitive bases behind the goal-setting that makes for the higher achievement. In the direct statement, the background thought is that you utilize a "willfulness" or your "strong desire to achieve a goal" in order to make the outcome happen. Your will power in action. So, in the direct statement, you are focused on a goal, and using will power to achieve it. The concept in the brain is a neutral, or sometimes a negatively enforced activity, because you are somewhat fighting to achieve a goal, sort of working "against" a behavior you believe you cannot control.

When a goal is posed as a question, however, your brain looks at it as a different type of issue. It is posed as a reasoning issue - Will I achieve this? You answer "yes, because I desire a more balanced lifestyle, to enrich my son's life, to enhance..." or the like. The brain sees the change in behavior as a positively-linked reasoning issue, as opposed to a negatively-linked issue of will power.


Perhaps if you pose the question, "Will I change this emotional outburst behavior?" and then respond to yourself, "Yes, because I desire ___________________________," your changes will occur more rapidly and to a higher degree.


The study I read was supported by many other studies, and showed to be quite strong across many different behavioral changes desired. Dieting, exercising, and other self-change work as well.


Perhaps worth a try.



SB

I can see this working....When I say the words to myself I actually catch myself looking upward as if to the future. Weird. I am going to try it....still practicing my apology to ds for when he gets home this evening.

Speaking of weird---I dreamed last night thw XWH was holding me. I felt he was cheating on OW and that made me very happy. In fact, I was having my friend take a picture of us hugging and I had plans to make sure OW saw it.

Boy, if THAT isn't a telling dream or what. Clearly I feel like she has 'won' somehow. Logically, all she has 'won' is a sorry cheater man 20 years older than she is. I don't want him! THere is no doubt in my mind I do not want him. So why do I care that they are together? Is it because I want him to suffer somehow and it appears he is not suffering because he has our house and the young girlfriend? Sooooo....guess I should ask myself

"Will I stop wishing harm comes to my XH?"

Worth a try.

Mean while I went to services this morning...just grabbed a bite to eat and now waiting for my friend to come over and help me turn ds's room into a 'lego room.'

Only 7 hours until he gets home!

Spent the entire afternoon with two of my girlfriends making ds's room into a LEGO room. Oh. My. Word. It is gorgeous. Can't wait to go shopping for bedding now. He got home just as we finished...he LOVES it.

Anyway, friends were still here when XH drops ds....I let ds in the door and reach for ds's bag from XH....he lets met grab the bag and then jerks it back hard and looks at me and drops it to the sidewalk. I just shut the door. Weird. VERY weird.

Friends leave and I give ds my apology. He takes it fine. I tell him I am so happy to have him home..that I missed him. Did he have fun? Yes he says....but then tells me about his dad telling him he has to let the 5 year old 'be right' because he is only 5. And ds wanted to spend more time on the wave beach but XH didn't want to and ds got upset having to leave that area and XH called him a baby...

I expressed mild sympathy...nothing over the top....Didn't ask questions....didn't let my mind wonder to the fact that OW was there. He mostly mentioned the OW's son...only mentioned OW a few times.....

Anyway, I think I did well...

Still curious why XH was so angry at drop off. Ds said, 'Maybe he was mad the whole weekend but just didn't show it.'

Out of the mouths of babes.

Well, next time, DS can bring his bag in and you won't even see XWH right?

You CAN do this. I am not some super human, I am a regular person who knows that when someone is harmful, I could have LESS interaction with them. I crave LESS pain(as I believe we all do) and I KNOW logically how to get it. That's why I get so mad at myself for "minor" slips. It will get better.

You see, your XWH pulled you right in to his little drama game. Stop being a player in this sick game of hurt SW.

TJ alert SB that was an AWESOME post about that article. It got the hamster in my mind spinning. It really does a WORLD of difference when trying to change a behaviour. Thanx./tj

I don't see any way to stop XH from walking to the front door. Seriously....he has been asked repeatedly to NOT walk ds to the door and yet in an entire year he has only NOT walked him to the door ONE time.I am going to talk to ds about me just having the door open when he is due home (as was mentioned to me sometime this weekend) but I will then have to worry that XH will just walk in.

I actually thought I did excellent and so did ds...sometimes ds will walk in and then go back outside to hug his dad bye AGAIN...last night I let him in and just reached out the door for ds's bag from XH's hands. I didn't even make eye contact with him and as soon as I realized he was jerking the bag back I just let go and quietly shut the door.



I agree he pulls me in...but unclear what I could have done differently. The more I ask him NOT to do something the more he will do it.....I really think I am better off just ignoring his drama and focusing my attention on not interacting with his drama...I mean in the past I would have either wanted to would have actually said 'What is that about? Don't be a jerk.' Last night I didn't even have the urge or thought in my head to say a word to him...I just disengaged..



Yes it was! I was awake for a couple of hours in the middle of the night---not uncommon for me lately...but I had a different thought process going around in my head...more hopeful....less terrifying and sad.

Looking forward today to going shopping for ds's new bedding for his new Lego room...it is sooooo cool!

On your 'to do different' list place the following:

I will leave DS's bag on the porch until xWH leaves the premises.

I will allow DS to bring his bag in by himself. I will be completely out of sight at drop off.

This will help remove you from any of the bag jerking moments. You gave your xWH the interaction he was looking for and you lapped it up. He's got you wondering why he jerked the bag and was angry. Your job is to remove yourself from those interactions and focus your attention elsewhere. Your WH and his drama have been like a drug to you that you need to quit cold turkey.

HOW do I keep XH from coming to the door? If I stay out of sight he WILL walk on in. At least if I let ds in I can stand guard and shut and lock the door.

And I did just leave the bag until he left. Ds went out and got it much later. I just shrugged and went back to visiting with my friends.

How do you know he will? Maybe he just wants you to think he will so he can mess w/ your head at the door.

Have you told DS that you don't want XH walking him to the door? Tell him to insist on carrying his own bag from the car, tell him to hug his father in the car, rather at the door.

What was in the bag? Maybe you can avoid the whole bag BS by not sending DS w/ one next time. The way Scotland does. She just sends her sons w/ the clothes they have on.

If they need anything, WH has to buy them.

Ds10 packed his own bag. I didn't even suggest or remind him.

And he will walk in. He is still fighting me over the furniture I took from the marital home...he wants in so he can get a visual on what all I took so he can whine about me getting more.

I HAVE asked ds repeatedly to say goodbye at the truck. He is either forgetting or ignoring me OR XH is ignoring him.

I will try the 'out of sight' thing on Wednesday. My entrance area is small---I can be out of sight just 3 steps around the corner so I can cut XH off quickly if he comes in. I will tell ds before I drop him off what the plan is for when his dad brings him home...we will see if it takes.

As soon as DS enters the home, close the door behind him.

If you stand behind the door you can close it w/o ever setting eyes on XH.

...Then you can quickly run to turn on the sprinklers that you have pointed right at your front door. LOL

Lock the door. Then, when DS arrives, wait until he comes to the door and rings the bell to get in. Then open the door fast, let him in, and close it.

Or, have someone else open the front door for your son.

Or, have your EX drop your son off at the neighbors house instead of yours. Then go get him.

My good friend was in a situation where she found lots of ways to stay dark.

Their transfer point was Saturday morning. DD's dad would bring her to her sports activity, and my friend would pick her up after. She'll drop her DD off at my house to play with my kids, or at one of her neighbor's house, and DD will call her dad letting him know where to pick her up. This would only work if the other parent was reliable, though.

What led to this conversation? Why was DS speculating about dad's anger? Did you ask him WHY XH was angry?

PM you read my mind..

SW, was happy to hear about your DS lego room and that you kept busy, but when I read that line it gave me pause?

Did you ask DS if his Dad was angry? These are the questions you need to avoid. Your DS has no clue why or if his Dad is mad. He is a wayward and they are plain dumb.

Blessings.

This is what I do...well, I unfortunately do not have sprinklers...but it is a lovely thought.

Ds went looking for his bag and asked why it was outside. I told him. Then we both BRIEFLY discussed it. I didn't let the topic linger.

I had to REALLY bite back words just now...ds mentioned it felt weird that he missed services yesterday. I said, 'yeah...' Then he says, 'That is what OW said. She said, 'I know why we are all so tired...because we are used to getting up and going to church.'" I was like, 'huh?' I did say, 'She goes to church?' He shrugged...I said, 'do you think your dad goes with her?' He shrugged...then I caught myself and LET IT GO.

See I have this life long problem of being too curious for my own good. When I worked in the office they said I was curious as a cat...sometimes it can be a good thing, but dealing with an XH and his OW is NOT one of those.

I would like to report that ds and I had a great day. I didn't discuss OW or his dad...a few times he brought things up but I quickly caught myself and let the topic die naturally...SB's suggestion of asking myself, 'Will I control my emotional outbursts with my ds?' REALLY worked. He has been a little cranky today....overtired I believe...but I've been patient and kind to him...and not quizzed him about his dad or OW.

My friends and I painted him up a GREAT Lego room...OMgosh it looks so fabulous...went shopping for bedding to match today....so I'm feeling hopeful that life will be ok.


You are all lifesavers. Thanks.

DS said that "maybe his father was angry all weekend" because that is how males make an opening gambit into a conversation when they want to be ASKED a question, but are uncomfortable bringing up a topic.


They pose a hypothesis.


He posed one, you didn't bite. Oddly enough, you turned a MALE stance on your DS - which is - you did something a guy would do: you turned down the unspoken request to talk about something deeper, by not taking the request and asking the question "Why do you think he was angry all weekend?" which is an almost natural response to his statement.

He posed it. Your "pass" on the question, by not asking, was taken by your DS (in male terms) as a refusal to discuss.

You "told" your DS that you were not interested in what your WXH was angry about, and your DS understood that. So he also "passed" on details about your WXH's mood over the weekend.

This carried into the topic of the luggage, and OW's son getting to be right all the time. DS "passed" on those topics, too.


The vacation with WXH was not a fantasy come true, not a little Brady Bunch fun trip. My guess is that OW's little son was kind of a brat, your DS was a bit exasperated with him being a brat and wasn't happy that he had to be right all the time, WXH was griped at by OW the whole weekend because WXH's SON was NOT being the BEST CHILD IN THE WHOLE WORLD LIKE HER SON WAS, and why couldn't WXH's son be perfect and couldn't WXH do SOMETHING to make things PERFECT????? And your DS being just a kid did not understand the entire dynamic of this "gotta be perfect" vacation just didn't make things terrrrrrific for the bia*^Tch(^y little OW. Which translated to a not-to-happy WXH, and a not terrific little vacation for WXH, so by the time he got to your house, WXH realized that these little vacations you all used to take


were more work than he remembered.


Probably because YOU used to do the WORK part.


And he didn't ever figure that out.


OW is NOT meeting his EN's. And his little fantasy world sucks.




SB

Oh, and whatever you do


do NOT ask DS about the vacation and why WXH was angry all weekend. That is GUY STUFF.


Let.

It.

Rest.



Your trip to NY is coming up, look forward to THAT instead, and talk it UP!


SB

SW, need any NYC tips. I go there often. Your son will have a great time. Great museums, great shows, great food -- you will have a blast.

A couple of other things that let me know it wasn't all roses for XH....ds said OW and her son went to the mall while XH and ds went to some other thing...and XH only let ds swim at the hotel pool for an hour the first night...the second night ds didn't get to swim at the hotel at all because according to ds 'XH didn't want to. They just went to bed.'

And you are correct that I always did all the work for vacations.....this time he took a day of vacation (Friday) to prepare FOR vacation...spent his vacation day mowing the lawn (which I always did), running errands (which I always did) and booking the hotel rooms (which I always did).

Oh well. Sucks to be SW's WXH.

SB I was confused at first when you were explaining how ds threw that comment out there and I 'passed' on it....I thought you were saying I shouldn't have passed. Truth is it wasn't natural AT ALL for me to NOT quiz him about it...I exercised extreme restraint to LET. IT. Die. So you are saying I did the right thing?

I did ask ds if he had fun. He said yes, but not enthusiastically...I asked him to rate it on a scale of 1-10....he gave it a 5.