Brief synopsis...

Married 6 years, second marriage for both, she has 2 sons 16 & 13. We were high school sweethearts but broke up when I went away to college (she was a year behind in school). I looked her up during my divorce a few years back. It was the easiest, most intense relationship I ever had, madly in love.

After we got married, by mutual decision based on what we thought was best for the family, I left my job and became Mr Mom which I have been doing ever since. I have a good income from my IRA, so I also contribute financially. The boys and I have a very good relationship.

During the financial meltdown a few years ago things got pretty tight and I was feeling the pressure as I watched staggering sums of money evaporate. WW was having trouble at work and wanted to quit her job. I told her that she couldn't quit as we would need her income for at least the foreseeable future. Since she got zero empathy from me she began to mentally pack it in.

I found out she had been having a PA with another old flame back in August. I confronted her and she admitted everything. It was an EA for less than 3 months and a PA for less than a month. While I was putting my exposure plan together she announced it was over, NC was in place, MC was set up and she was going to give the M her best shot. I chose at that point not to expose.

I had a ton of monitoring in place - email, cell phone records, facebook, credit cards, gps, everything. Plus OM was 200 miles away which made things at least difficult to avoid detection. I checked up a lot - even to the point of checking her odometer and once in while cheking to see if she was shere she claimed to be. Everything always checked out.

Today she went to an exercise class. I checked her work cell phone while she was inside, and there it was. She called OM on the way there.

So here I am back at ground zero, I feel just battered. So for the experts out there - yes, I know you told me so. Nuclear exposure is happening this week for certain. Her mother, brothers, everyone on POSOM's fb friends list, his ex, everyone. My question is do I confront first, expose first, collect more data, what? Right now all I have is that one phone call.

I exposed the relatives first (they usually are the ones that ill go nuclear, if they love their children, they'll confront them, too--which happened in my case). My father in law didn't need any proof he believes I am a honest man but her sister was different... so you might need proof, too.

The friends were like cluster bombs, they started texting everyone and before long it was if the town knew.

All that helped tick off the OM and make him retreat to his brokenhearted wife.

Is this OM married?

So you are saying that if WS continued with affair you would have Exposed. Well she has continued the affair. So Expose!

All that time between confronting WS and now is wiped out.

It's as if you confronted and the first thing she did was call the OM. EXPOSE!

OM is married but seperated

I do not need further convincing on exposure

You confronted they went underground now you expose, no pea shooter tactics, full exposure, hit the target audience fast, as for the OM take him down inform his family, friends and if you can his co workers. Make it very uncomfortable for him.

As for your wife, let her company know she is conducting an affair using company propery and time, she has to feel the heat at work as she has most certainly been using their facilities for the affair.

I would start with his wife and then work your way out. Include the kids in this exposure, because they will need to know too.

fight4life, by the way, I am so sorry this is happening to you.

One of the many reasons I'm really disappointed is because I've been doing a stellar plan A. Not once have I raised my voice, made a accusation or judgment, or dismissed her. Not once. And she freely admits that I have been doing everything she's asked of me. We spend a ton of recreational time together and in many ways our marriage is much better than before. I wouldn't say its 100% but so might has been addressed and she's slowly gotten more engaged. This is seriously disorienting.

Hello Fight4life,

Not really disorienting when you understand what an affair is. She is getting her EN's met by BOTH of you. Why would she give up the OM when she can have both of you?

Kill the affair with exposure immediately. Your Plan A is not meant or expected to stop her affair, just for her to see that you CAN meet her EN's once the affair has been killed.

God bless.

Jim

fight, I wrote this to you about Plan A, in September:

It seems you didn't take in what I explained about Plan A.

fight, do you know that Plan A is only supposed to be a very short term plan until the affair ends? Plan A is one sided giving. You should have been in Plan Recovery all this time. I believe Sugarcane is right that your one sided giving has not been helpful to your marriage. It has essentially rewarded a cake eating spouse who appears to have been forgiven unconditionally. That only cemented her selfish, entitled behavior.

I agree with her opinion that skipping exposure has harmed your chances at recovery but am glad you can see the benefits of it now. It really does serve to wake up a WS.

You may have mentioned previously, but what was her marital status when you looked her up?

divorced for 7 years when I contacted her.

Mel -
I may have misused the term plan A. It was my belief that the affair was over. I beleive I read that Dr H says about 15% of waywards stop the A upon discovery. I had pretty good snooping in place which I relaxed somewhat as things continued to check out. I was very skeptical at first - 15% is like 1 in 7 - but no act caused me to raise an eyebrow. I eventually stepped up my snooping because its been 5 months and intimacy is still awkward.

Do you think I need to get a recording before I expose? Or do I just blow everyone up asap?

I think you would be better off getting a recording before you expose. I suspect there has been contact all along. How do you think she has been doing it?

i have a recorder, just have to figure out how to work the damn thing. It'll be in her car tomorrow AM.

she used her personal cell exclusively pre dday. She continued to use for about a few days and tehn suddenly announced that it was over and that phone has been clean ever since. I know she is reluctant to use work email/phone because things are checked pretty closely there and there have been instances where emails have been read by management. I found the call on her work cell this AM. I checked it in her car while she was doing yoga. I have done that several times in the past but it was always clean. She was probably just more careful to delete the call record before.

I bet you are correct.

okay I figured out this VAR. Turned off the LED and beeper on it. Found a spot in her car that is unlikely to be discovered and tested it. I am completely disgusted with what my M has become.

Do you have access to the phone records? I'm assuming you have OM's phone number memorized or written down in a safe place.

I'm confused.

You said


And then you said
I don't mean to split hairs, but were you in the process of divorcing when you looked her up, or had you been divorced for years before you looked her up? It can't be both.

I was getting divorced - W had moved out, papers had been filed, lawyers haggling. My D took 15 months. It was during this time that I looked up my current WW, who had been divorced for 7 years.

went to her office and retrieved VAR from her car...no doubt it is PA. I feel like puking.

Okay, I want to expose right now, without delay. I know there are scripts out there for what to say. I would like to use them so I can keep it succinct and hit as many people as possible. Can anyone help??

couldnt wait...WW's entire family is informed - 4 older brothers plus MIL. They absolutely are going to blast her. I've fb messaged his 2 kids and 10 of his friends before fb shut me down, left message for his W (who knows, maybe they're not really seperated)

Now the poop is definitely going to hit the fan...

Make a copy of all his facebook friends now!!! Copy and paste it into a WORD doc. Can you call his wife directly?

p.s. you aer doing great!! Just keep up the pressure and get all your exposures done today. You want to get that all done with quickly so you can move onto next steps.

Also, please ask any exposure targets to use their influence to persuade them to end their affair.

Be back shortly. You are doing great!!

Sample exposure letter below


On facebook leave one minute between each message sent

Below is a second letter for your wifes side:

I have all his friends in a excel spreadsheet. Just hit a few dozen more.

I was unable to find an email or cell phone for the wife, left a message on the home phone. I will get to her one way or another.

I also emailed OM:

Time for us to talk. As a man with a family, I'm sure you would do just about anything to protect it. I am asking you, man to man, to have integrity and honor and stop all contact with WW. No man has a right to muck around in another man's family. You need to know that I am not going to stand by and let this happen.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

This is eerie. I haven't gotten a single return call or message. I also called WW and let her know that she's busted. I feel like there's a hurricane just off shore and I'm just waiting for it to hit.

They are on the phone talking to each other to cover their tracks. As soon as the facebook is open carry on exposing , use the samples above. Most of the words are from members of this site. Find the OM's wife via facebook, he is on there she is bound to be there as well.

Have you completed the exposure on your wifes side?

What was your wifes response?

Tonight expect a range of emotions from her.

Just keep it up! I would also warn you that the OM will probably try to stop you from telling his wife. Whatever you do, don't let that happen. For example, he might call you and promise to leave your wife alone IF you won't tell his wife. If that happens, just tell him you will give it some thought [leave him hanging] and then work like the devil to contact her. I would expect him to try and block your attempts and to pre-empt you by spinning the story to her. It might take alot to convince her of the affair.

exposure is complete for WW's family.

her reaction was 15 seconds of denial, followed by an admission. I did not tell her how I found out. I said I was interested in talking about her cutting him off once and for all, forever, and going to work on restoring our M. I told her I was done being treated like a doormat and that she can't live her life like this, demeaning herself.

She said something like "I think too much damage has been done" to which I said nonsense, you kick him to the curb and start being who you promised to be and we will get there. She was stunned, numb. No commitments or oaths or apologies were offered (I expected none). Once her family lays into her I suspect she will be more contrite. They are a super-tight Italian family who have no problem getting mixed up in each other's business.

good job, stay strong, give her time to process everything, they never think they actually have to be accountable to anyone, the fantasy has been broken onto the reality.............

helpfordad, here jessitaylor.

I've been trying to touach base w/ you regarding how you held up for 8 more months when WH and OW still worked together? (I sent you a post under my thread last week, I think).

My WS works on hospital campus...OM is construction in different building on same campus, posssibly for a couple more months....WS won't leave salary/position/job either.

How to you handle/manage the situation? was there NC???

Carry on targeting the OM's friends list. His life is not yet under scrutiny, I suspect he is planning his next steps to undermine you and will be in contact with your wife. The more people on his side that know he is a cheat the better for you.

Ask your wife has she has been in contact with the OM since your exposure, remind her or imply that his family will let you know so she should not attempt to lie.


When / if she comes home be calm and have your next steps ready, DO NOT reveal any more of your snooping techniques or who you have exposed to. This is not a game of honesty, your wife has already lost that one.

she cam home early. Had a calm, honest discussion, no LBs exchanged. Says she doesn't think she can give me what I deserve, doesn't want to hurt me, thinks she loves OM, blah blah blah.

Told her that the rest of our lives can't be decided today in the swirl of emotions, and that while she was undoubtedly being truthful, that her view is distorted and that her relationship w/OM has no underpinnings in reality, and reality will destroy it. She is - at best - on the fence.

She is way deep in the nonsensical fog. For example, 2 weeks ago she booked a family vacation in June - airfare, hotel, the works. I asked her how she can think the M is over, be plotting with OM and at the same time booking family trips. She just shrugged.

2 of her brothers called while we were talking. She left to call them back. Guess we'll see how this exposure thing works.

btw, what ARE my next steps? I've already told her that I must demand full complete and verifiable NC. Just not sure what I'm supposed to do while in limbo

fight, I would demand no contact as long as you are married and are living together. Don't pay much attention to her fogbabble. Just concentrate on exposing the affair. Get ahold of the OMW ASAP and be sure and tell the children.

Don't agree to anything, and if she discusses divorce, paint the ugliest picture possible. Tell her you will be suing on grounds of adultery and will have the OM subpoenaed into court. Tell her under discovery, they will subpoena both their emails and cell phone records. Paint a very ugly picture and be sure and tell her you won't be her "friend." This will dispel her fantasy of an amicable, easy divorce where she replaces you wiht the OM.

In the meantime, don't fight and don't allow her to bait you into a fight. Just be firm and straightforward. And don't go along with the "I am moving into the guest room, we are now "separated" and I am therefore free to carry on my affair" ploy. Don't go along with that!

fight, I have a feeling you can kill this affair if you get ahold of the OMW. Please keep trying to get her.

gonna call again this evening

Don't be scared about anything she says, fight. Believe me, this is far from over.

Your wife's feelings are the result of an ongoing fantasy, but they will change as reality intrudes. If you do a nuclear exposure it will give her a much needed shock of reality. Everyone should know about the affair. The wider the exposure the greater damage you will do to her affair.

Awesome job on exposure! At least we know FB is good for one thing, LOL.

OM's W needs to know, that's crucial on his end. You have an excellent shot at killing this affair with the exposure you've done and getting hold of his W will most likely seal the deal.

Have you read up on Plan A? Try to Plan A her as much as possible over the next few days. Her head's going to be spinning and she is going to need to see how great your M can be if she ends her A.

OM may dump her once his W finds out, too. That would be a huge benefit to you.

she's finding out how far I've exposed...2 brothers have called & she was visibly upset. She is outraged that I exposed to OM's son, who is an adult in the marine corps. Which means of course that OM is outraged. Let me shed a tear.

WW: "If you thought this would endear you to me, you thought wrong. I don't know what you're capable of and that is disturbing to me."

my only response was "I am defending my M and family"

she's about as mad as I've ever seen her

how long should I anticipate the silent treatment, and should I be scarce while she's this angry?

Hang in there F4L. I'll let some of the vets answer more specifically, but for ME... my W went from saying some of the more brutal, awful things she could on the day of exposure, to becoming somewhat apologetic within a week.

She still says she can't forgive me--it's just projecting, I think... after all, I ruined her affair and forced her to actually look at the consequences of her actions...

But the difference is, her affair has ended and she's back with ME now.

Words mean very little. Actions mean everything, and your actions are telling her that you aren't going to go down without a fight.

A statement simply dripping with unintentional irony. Sometimes I wonder if waywards even listen to themselves!

tl

Mine said the same thing! As well as "I just don't think I can trust you anymore." Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

Do not laugh at her when she says stupid things like this!! It will be hard because a freshly busted WS says the most inane things you ever heard in your life. Go in the bathroom and shut the door if you feel a laugh coming on.

laughs are quite a ways off, mel

Hang in there, fight!! It will get better, I promise. You are closer to saving your marriage TODAY than you were yesterday. Just think of it that way.

I think you can cause major damage if you get through to the OMW. Keep up the pressure, friend!

even though he has been seperated for a year? (he had some fb posts that seemed to confirm this)

oh yes!! He is still married. And he may not be separated at all. If he is getting a divorce then the evidence of this affair can be very helpful to his wife.

As far as you telling his son, what would be wrong with that? If it is ok for him to have an affair with a married woman, then why isn't it ok to tell everyone? His son sure has a right to know what he is doing since it directly affects his family.

She'll get over it. Waywards stayed ticked for awhile and then it blows itself out. If I were you, I'd be scared if she wasn't angry.

I have a looming crisis this weekend...her family is gathering at her brother's house on Fri/Sat for her mother's b'day. I found out from the VAR that she was planning on spending the night on Fri w/OM. I was to stay home with our older son because he has sports commitments.

I feel like I can't stay home, that I'll lose my mind. She is pretty ticked off at me & doesn't want me around. I feel like I have to insist I go if only to ensure she behaves herself. Thoughts?

MAN UP and put a stop to that.

Have you exposed the affair to her mother?

Everyone should know about the affair and her plans to meet up with that scumbag this weekend, including your son. But before you put a stop to this, I would FAST get a GPS on her car. There are several over on the snooping forum: here

If she insists on continuing with her rendevous I would tell her you will attending also.

Please KEEP trying to get the OMW. Have you tried calling the OM's house to see who answers?

This older son is her biological child and your step-son, right? I would let her know that HER SON has a sports commitment that requires her attendance this weekend.

Indeed you insist that she stays to attend her sons sport commitment and should she decline babble to her say that you, your children, brothers and her mother would be banging on her door after all what a better present for her mother's birthday to see the man who destroying her daughter and her family.

If she does not stay with you you go on Friday. Tell your children of her affair and name him so they know who is.

sugar -
You need to relax a little. I don't need to man up, I was merely looking for ways to broach the subject. There was never any conceivable way I was going to stay home taking care of the kids while she was out w/OM.

Mel -
LM w/MIL, will follow up this AM. Only contact # I have for OMW is the home number, her voice on a machine. I'll call again today. One fb friend replied asking for me to explain/give proof which I did. I asked if OM was really seperated so we'll see what that yields.

Strange thing happened last night. About 3 am, WW rolls over and wants me to hold her. I know waywards are all over the place and I can't read anything into it (guilt? manipulation? whatever). It just seemed odd that on the day of exposure she chose to do this.

fight4life,

Exposure is taking hold now, just sit back and let it all happen, let her feel bad about what she chose to do......self reflection is exactly what you want to happen, just be there to catch her from the fall, just keep telling her that she is worth fighting for and that is exactly what you are doing.......
See how having an affair really isn't okay with them either, exposure shows this....
Be firm with your boundaries in a loving compassionate way, be understanding and forgiving.........
Let your home and your arms be the place she feels safe now.........don't expect anything yourself for now, it takes some time for the process to play out and the fog to lift......
Keep your eye on the big picture a good marriage with the woman you love.

jessi -

wow, what an awesome post!

He is married! Can you find her facebook page? I would stay on this until you get the OMW, fight. That is your BIGGEST BULLET right there. Don't let up until you find her.

And it doesn't matter if he is separated, he is still married. Married is married. Find her!

she is not on facebook. I have both her kids plus her WH and she is not friends with any of them.

MIL is informed via email. That's gonna create a poop storm because her b'day is this weekend and I will catch the blame for ruining it. So be it.

WW will not be going to the party, says she doesn't want to be around her family. Doesn't want to face the truth is more like it.

One thing I didn't realize about exposure - identifying the OPs by name totally poisons families against them. There is no way to introduce someone to your family that they already think of as a homewrecker/wh*re/scumbag

Please keep trying to get her, ok!?


If her b-day is ruined, it will be because of her affair and no other reason. Can't blame that on you!


Agree..


Yep! You got it!

Hey, since you have the name of the Marine son, how about asking him for his mothers contact info? Tell him you need to get ahold of his mother and tell her. Ask him to help.

Have you tried googling the OMW's name?

okay, I have a question...

I used spokeo to try to find OMW email address, no luck. They do have a daughter at home and I did get her email. I don't know how old she is, maybe high school age, maybe younger. This is as close to getting her mother's email as I'm gonna get.

Do I give her the full blast, ie your father is an adulterer, or do I ask her to have her mother contact me?

As you do not know what age she is simply say there is an adult problem between your wife and her father can she please ask her mother to contact you. Do not say what is the problem is.

Use the phase "I apologise fo having to ask you but as there is as adult problem etc..."

I don't think I would do that. Keep trying to find another way. What happens when you call the house?

when I call the house I get a machine saying "you've reached the Smith's, pls leave a message"

I've left a message for her giving my name & number saying I have an urgent personal matter involving your husband that I need to discuss

How far away do they live?

Mel giving you great advice, all I have to add is another voice saying find the wife! For me that was the arrow that killed the affair. Biggest result right there unless they are totally written off, which is unlikely.

218 miles

I've asked the son for contact info and left a message at the house. If I have to drive it, I will.

ok, good. She is the most important exposure of all. She might effectively kill the affair immediately. If you don't get her by a certain time today, can you drive to her home tonight?

Better yet, if you don't get her today, can you leave for her home tomorrow around 3? That would put you there around 6:30.

Do it.

yes, I am retired so I can go whenever.

Can you go now and be there when she arrives home from work?

It would be best for this all to hit TODAY before the OM has a chance to spin the story to his wife. He won't be expecting you to show up on his doorstep.

I seriously doubt the OM will leave his wife for an affair [they rarely do] so this exposure might be the magic bullet.

This was one of the most satisfying parts of exposure, for me.

My FIL is not an angry person, per se, but hearing him wax poetic about POSOM was one of the few bright spots in the early days of my war.

I believe his exact words were something like "if she ever tries to bring that SOB over here, I have a tree in my backyard and a noose in my garage and I'm prepared to use them both."

If you can take a friend with you, better two than alone.

If you go to see OM's W make sure you bring whatever proof you have.

I have to do it tomorrow. I'll leave in the morning
she is listed as a nurse on one of those look-up websites so she might not have regular hours

start calling the hospitals and clinics in her area and ask for her....

And you will be advised that they cannot release that information.

no? nurses can't take personal calls at work?

May I assist you?
What matter is this regarding?
May I refer you to her supervisor?
May I have you number/information please?

Protection from would-be potential stalkers.

well at least he would know if he found her workplace, right?
and maybe talking to her superviser would work for getting a message to her....???

what would they say if she does not work there?

It's probably OK to leave a message with the supervisor:

This is (name) spouse of (name).
I have proof of an ongoing adulterous affair between my spouse and OMW's spouse.
Please call me at (number).

Exposure to the other BS's supervisor may actually help in the long run.

it depends on how common her name is, doesn't it?

I'm not sure.
It may vary each work place.

Hospitals are pretty nervous about preventing potential work place violence.

We had an incident where an angry gang member ex-boyfriend showed up in our clinic.

The employer is not obligated to give out any information at all to random people .... even to verify OR DENY employment.

Good idea. We've had posters actually book a flight and fly to the OMW. 218 miles isn't bad, all things considered.

Good idea. We've had posters actually book a flight and fly to the OMW. 218 miles isn't bad, all things considered.

If you want to have any hope of talking to her at work you would have to know her hospital and her unit where she was working. That way, you would just ask for the unit, and then ask for the nurse. Even then, there would be hoops to jump through, but it's theoretically possible to get through. Just randomly calling hospitals and asking, "Does Ms. BW work here?" No, not if the hospital has even a rudimentary security system.

tl

Not all that weird. DH did the same thing on d-day ~ they are scared and realize they are all alone in this mess they've created. It's nice that you were able to do this, I couldn't ~ my hands would have been just a little too close to his neck and I knew that wasn't a good thing, LOL.

Keep being the lighthouse, stay calm, hold your tongue. You are doing great.

Go, absolutely. This is also a great opp to prove to her and her family that you are willing to forgive this grievous crime.

OMW and OM's daughter both called me. While they are upset over his actions they dont have much contact with him as they have been seperated for over a year. Daughter even said if you want to ge beat the poop out of him I understand. Really disappointed that I can't generate any leverage out of them.

They did confirm that I really hit the hot button with the son. They described him as very upset about it & asked that I not contact him further. OM is likely not going to back off.

On the other side, all of WW's brothers on working on my side, and MIL is very upset over WW's actions. I guess I just have ot pray that this will be enough.

ASK OMW how many other affairs her WH has had.

Why are they separated?

Does OM have a criminal/arrest history?

Pump OMW or OMdaughter for info.

fight4life

Did you expose to all his facebook contacts and have you kept a record of their details in word? It may help if you expose to more of his friends as his wife is no longer able to help. A bit of external pressure from his friends particularly if they are female friends or co-workers may help.

hmmmm, are you SURE it was his wife?


You need to pledge to make his life a holy living hell. I would be calling him up and telling him that if he doesn't leave your wife alone, you will filing on grounds of adultery and having him hauled into court to give sworn testimony about his adultery. Your attorney will subpoena his email and cell phone records. Tell him there is no future in his affair because he will be eternally hated by your children for breaking up their family. He will never be accepted into the WWs family because they all know he is a polecat who broke up her marriage.

Do you live in an alienation of affection state?

He should hear from you every time you have evidence of contact.

Do you have a GPS on her car? If not, please get one asap.

I find it very interesting that the "OMW" says she is separated for a year but SHE left their home, AND her voice is on their recorder? Are you sure it was the same voice?

daughter called from home phone # where I left the message and said OMW would call me from work if I wanted her to. She called within 10 minutes from a number I later looked up, a doctor's office. Failry distinct voice, very much like the on the answering machine. OM bitched about the calls so I think they're giving him hell.

OM left the home, not OMW. She said at one point "please leave my children alone, they've been thru this before". when pressed she didn't want to give any details, but its clear that he has a history of cheating.

WW came home 90 min ago. Pissed as hell.
WW "You need to leave his family alone"
me "He needs to leave my family alone"
WW "his kids are innocent in this"
me "so are our kids"

from there things calmed down and we had a VERY emotional conversation. WW knows he has a history of cheating, says she realizes that I am the best thing that ever happened to her kids, that I did everything she asked of me in counseling. I pointed out that he intentionally sought to destroy this family and you're letting him do it. Fair points, says she.

I have an IRA account with $3 million. Says she doesnt want one dime of my money, including the $265K I put down on the house (not that she would win it in a divorce fight anyway). I say you're willing to take an awful lot away from our kids in exchange for a roll of the dice with a cheating guttersnipe. Fair point says she.

And yet, she is determined give it go w/OM, so she can be happy

I am totally spent

everyone in WW's family has called her. She doesnt care. She isnt even really mad about it, said I guess I had it coming and now everyone has something to talk about. This aint fog I'm dealing with here.

Yes it is. Hang tight and Plan A the heck out of her.

Let's see how far this exposure goes in breaking up the A before you throw in the towel. This is a marathon, not a spring, remember? You've only just begin, the finish line is still 26.2 miles away.

I want to applaud you for one of the best responses I have ever seen on this forum. This was perfect. Concise, without being argumentive. You didn't allow her to drag you into the tar pit.


Don't despair. You have a better chance of saving your marriage TODAY than you did last month. Your odds have gone up tremendously today. Just sit back, finish any exposures, [tell the kids!] give the OM unmitigated holy hell and watch the affair crumble.

Don't pay attention to anything she tells you because it means nothing. She is about as coherent as a falling down drunk who just had her car keys taken away.

The affair will be in free fall now. Even if she leaves, fight, you still have a much better chance of saving your marriage than he does of continuing his affair.

You are just fine. Yes, she is fogged out.

at the end of my award-winning exchange she actually went to tell the kids, pack 'em up and go somewhere. I had to stop her and tell her to slow down (they werent even both home)

If I push OM at all she's leaving. I figured its better to have her here to think this thru on some level. She has nowhere to go - nearest family is 100 miles away and she's not talking to them anyway. if she thinks it thru 1% she's staying. The kids are going to be a mess. They were abandoned by their father and now she wants to kick me to the curb. those boys LOVE me. Meanwhile, you should see this friggin' manse sitting up on a hill she had me build just 4 years ago

You mean that is her threat to keep you from interfering with the OM? You have a better chance of killing the affair if you keep his feet to the fire. OM are notorious pansies and cockroaches and she senses he will be not be able to withstand much pressure. Keeping the pressure on him will create huge conflict in the affair.


Have you told the boys about her affair? What about your money? Have you moved your money to safekeeping so she doesn't wipe you out? What about lines of credit, etc?

my money is safe.

I don't see what leverage I have on OM. I pulled his family and all of his friends into it. He's not happy that he looks like a turd in front of his kids, but they are grown and he's left the house. His wife was not interested.

Cant sue for alienation of affection in my state or OM's state. She wont contest anything, doenst want anything and there's nothing I can get from her, she has a good job, but no assets. You cant make a divorce difficult if the other side isnt willing to fight for anything. She knows that we'd have to sell the house and that I'll take basically all of the equity.

He will not like hearing from you, fight. That is the leverage you have. If he hears from you every time you find out about contact he will run for his life.

What does this loser do for a living? Did you find his mother?

he is a retired 49 year old NYPD sgt who now does security work
he lives in a basement apt in his brother's house
he has had previous infidelities
he is an alcoholic who has been AA for many years

there is no comparison between he and I in any respect
I believe his parents are deceased

WW calls him every AM on the way to work and they talk throughout the day. I can't blame him, WW is beautiful and he is a life wasted.

I want to give you something to consider when you are fearful that she will leave for him. If she was going to leave for him, she would have already done it.

The reason she hasn't is because there are so many problems here. He has no home, no money, no future. The only way she could carry on this affair was to live in this fantasy world while you support her in luxury.

As long as she had that, and that affair was secret, everything was fine. But now that reality has intruded, the affair is doomed.

Even her threats to leave will be helpful to you, because that will make the reality of the hopelessness of her affair more realistic. There is no future here. If she does leave, it will only make the affair collapse faster.

Do you see that?

Have you been in touch with this brother?

Hello Fight,

Mel asked whether you had told the boys about the affair?

They could be the major deciding point for your WW in her decision to leave or not.

When you talk to them be very careful not to attack their mother...

Make it clear to them that the OM is taking advantage of their mother at a vulnerable time in her life and he has a habit of doing this with other women.

Ask them if they would rather live with you and their mother or their mother and the OM. It is already a proven fact that the OM treats his wive(s) badly and will in time leave their mother also. Ask them to ask their mother WHY the OM is MARRIED and pursuing a MARRIED woman and why he is not divorced from his W yet?

Hang in there fight, this is just getting started.

God bless.

Jim

This is so true. This affair is doomed. If she insists on pursuing it, let her leave.

But please understand that threatening to leave is a way the WS tries to get the BS to back down when they are interfering in the A, fight. Stand your ground.

I haven't read the whole thread but it sounds like you are doing great. Hang in there...

Fight,

Your WW sounds a lot like Mrs.Flint did at the time. My ex-brother was a complete loser like your OM and Mrs.Flint was attracted to him simply because he paid her attention and praised her regardless of how horrible her own selfish actions were NOT because he could offer her anything or because she deserved praise.

It was simply an addiction to the free lies of admiration he was handing out to her and she to him because NO ONE else would believe a couple of lying cheats that their da*n affair didn't stink...

That is why your WW is clinging to the OM for dear life, NO ONE else will believe her crap.

God bless.

Jim

Exactly! The WW is using this threat to stop fight from contacting the OM. She probably senses he will abandon her if he is hassled and wants to protect him. Calling her bluff will inject a huge dose of reality into the affair and scare off the OM, I predict.

If the OM is living in his brother's basement, he may be looking at how you and your WW live...and thinking that she would get a really good settlement in a divorce.

When you confront him, make sure that he understands that if you divorce, all he will be getting is your WW and NOTHING else!

Oh LC, you got that MOSTLY right. OM gets WW AND her expensive tastes which OM will have to provide for.

thank you all for your words of support...I was in near total emotional meltdown. I have been tightly controlled since dday1 which was in August. I have not let her see me cry, I have not raised my voice or been disrespectful in any way, not once.

But tonight (last night?? WTF) I was just too exhausted to give a hang. I cried my mother-lovin' eyes out. I think she was aghast at the depth of my pain and had to stand in the impact of her actions for the first time. After I finally got a grip she lost it herself and declared "I am a horrible person!" and had a meltdown of her own.

I told her she's not a horrible person, she just a person who did a horrible thing and the choice is hers whether or not to correct it or live with it.

regarding the boys...

This is a very touchy subject for me. They are not my biological children so my future access to them depends entirely on the goodwill of WW. She can divorce me 12 times but I will NEVER NEVER abandon them. She has not threatened to do this and acknowledges that I am the best thing that's ever happened to them, but using them as a tool will go over like a lead balloon.

Their father didn't see them but once or twice a year for a long time, but now sees them for 24 hours about every 6 weeks. In between he doesn't call or text. They flat out hate him and wish they never had to see him. I don't want them to have to suffer loss again, ever. They've paid more than their fair share.

So how do I proceed without unduly messing with their lives?

You could possibly adopt them, if WW is open to this. This idiot father of theirs sounds like he would eagerly give it up if it meant he didn't have to pay child support (if he does now), which you can add as a stipulation--he can sign away parental rights.

On the other hand, adopting them would leave you open to paying child support if you and WW ever divorced.

I consulted an attorney about adoption a while back, but when I found out that he would have to sign away his rights, we realized that wasn't gonna happen. He has paid CS religously for 13 years and at that time was trying to get WW to alter custody agreement (she has sole custody, but he still has rights & responsibilities).

Exposure is starting to have an impact on her. I've done my part, I think I'll just try to keep things quiet for a few days and see if the conflict in her mind boils over. She's in a bad place emotionally right now, which I guess is where we want her to be.

fight,

There is absolutely no reason to hide your emotions and your hurt because of what has happened to your life. Your wife should know and feel what pain she has caused you.
You are right the choice to either fix the mistake she made or live with the consequences is the question for her. Give her time to process her choices and just be the man she married.
As far as the boys, you think she has all the power, what you forget is the boys love you and need you in their lives, she knows it, they know it, you will not lose them.
Let her feel the brunt of her decisions. Self reflection is something you want to happen. The fog should be lifting soon..........
Hang in there, be that great dad you are and just keep yourself busy...........

well WW cried all morining as she got ready for work. Said she is going to call her therapist. She stopped seeing him while she was in NC a couple of months ago.

I am guardedly hopeful that the reality of the quandry she's created is beginning to seep thru the fog.

That's AWESOME fight4life! I hope this is the beginning of a recovery for you.

thanks Andy. At least my dog still loves me and today that's enough to survive

This is very bad news. I would not encourage her to see a therapist and I hope she doesn't follow through. You may end up separated and divorced over this.

fight, can you persuade her to counsel with one of the Marriage Builders coaches instead? They are pro marriage and will counsel her in a way that will help your marriage, not harm it. See, an IC will persuade her to make decisions on her current state of mind [fogginess] not realizing the effect her affair has on her mind. What they often recommend is a "trial separation," which is devastating to marriage. A therapist will counsel her on individual desires [of the moment] and not to the benefit of the marriage.

The reason this is a disaster is because most people place credibility on the word of a "counselor" and often follow through on bad advice.

its not a disaster. I know he helped her see that she created falsely negative perceptions of me and our M in order to justify the A, and told her to be honest with me regardless of the fallout.

She will not see a MC yet - doesnt want to give me "false hope". She has no conception of a plan, not as much as the first step. Right now she has the idea of getting thru the school year before doing anything, which she now know will require NC. She doesn't know whether to poop or wind her watch.

I've taken it as a good sign that she is conflicted enough to look for guidance. She'll find out soon enough that there is no way forward without compromising herself as human being, a mother, etc. and that OM wants his A but can't put her or her kids in a position to sustain it.

Fight you are winning this so far, I have been on here a while also with a WW. There are guys who win and guys who lose and you can tell quick who is who. Your path looks good so far so just hang on. Its a roller coaster. It really is, there bad patches still to come. You are doing great but I know it does not seem that way. And you are in the best hands.

BTW steve's counselling is great, I have done both his and other counselling to try to save my marriage. He surprised me with how concise he was. No wasted effort or time. If you can get WW to go, do it.

Reynolds -

Good God, thank you for that. I really think certain realities are beginning to dawn:

she can't do the right thing and keep the OM
she can't protect her children and keep the OM
she can't be a good person and keep the OM
she can't maintain her lifestyle and keep the OM

keeping the OM means selling out everything - marriage, family, extended family, her image with her kids, EVERYTHING.

while I doubt all that has been absorbed the fantasy is definitely shattered

Do not agree to this.
I know you think that it keeps you married for another 5 months, but you need to realize it also keeps you in limbo for another 5 months.

Force her hand. If she will not agree to give up the affair, make her go live in it.

Make her move out (preferably without the boys) and go live in the basement with OM. That fantasy will fizzle pretty darn fast.

But never never ever agree to let her continue the status quo for another 5 months. It will drive you out of your mind.

no worries on that front, Lex.

Last night she said "we have to start thinking of ways to do this". I told her that I have one solution and I've offered it. If it doesn't involve restoring our M then I won't be a party to it. She knows the clock is ticking.

OM is 200 miles away in his brother's basement, content to destroy a family. Her intent, so far as she's able to articulate it, is to move out locally and carry on a long distance affair as a single mother with a full time job and to shield all of this from the boys. I didn't say it makes any sense

fight4life - the intent - except for the 200 mile distance - sounds vaguely familiar. I think my WW wants to be single, have no responsibilities, have fun, but have a family on the side (just in case). In case of what..I don't know.

WW called from work...just want to make sure you'e okay (translation: please assuage my guilt).

Not sure if this is a MB answer, but I told her "aside from the obvious, yes, I'm not melting down if that's what you mean. Of course, the day isn't over."

I feel like I need a day when we're not on the bleeding edge of this thing. I haven't eaten since Sunday, unless celexxa and coffee is considered a meal.

fight4life - Man, you've got to take care of yourself right now. Get to a gym, do a workout, go for a jog. Instead of sitting around mopping, get active (you'll be more 'attractive' to your WW) and be cheerful. I know you're going to have to act! At the very least it'll make her wonder what's going on with you. I've worked out more frequently in the last 6 weeks than I have in the last 4 years. I'm not eating as much or as well, so I've also dropped weight, about 15-18 pounds. I don't want to lose anymore, so I'm paying attention more now. I needed to lose those pounds anyway.

okay. I feel like I have to get my ducks lined up here.

I completed exposure yesterday. Some evidence of the impact hitting WW but no signs of the fog lifting.

Hyper-emotional night/morning followed by a relatively calm day. Since there hasn't been any new fallout I believe she thinks I've accepted it.

Do I just plan A her for a few days? Should I let her know that I have no intention of giving up? How much of an impact can I reasonably expect?

I totally intend on keeping the pressure on, but it seems like it might be good to let what's been done sink in before dropping new bombs like contacting OM and putting the heat on him.

WW got a therapist appt for tomorrow. I'd like to tee up some food for thought before she goes in. Ideas?

Yes to both of these. For a few days you are in limbo ~ but ONLY a few days. Your mantra is "I am fighting for our M. I want this M."

Impact of your Plan A I assume? Not much. You will probably see glimpses of her responding to it but then she will regress. Don't despair, it's normal.


Wrong. Do this NOW. It won't be better if things start to settle down and then you drop ANOTHER bombshell. Do this today, while the A is already crumbling. PLEASE.

Contact the coaching center here and set up an appt. with them. Invite your WW but do it even if she won't. SH can get you on a good path in the meantime.

Don't put any hope in the traditional therapist. We went through 3 and none of them helped one bit. MB is the way to go.

Oh, no. You want to nail him strong and hard while the you-know-what is hitting the fan. Do this now.

This is a disaster. My hardly know what to say.

Why don't you tell her you have a better idea, that you know of a counseling center that specializes in recovering from affairs, ask her to cancel the appt. tomorrow, and instead have a phone appt with MB?

just sent this email to OM

I just want you to know that I am not done fighting for my wife and family, not by a long shot. You offer nothing except devastation and I will never let it happen. You may have WW snookered for the time being but no one else. I will not stop until you are gone.

You should realize that her family knows who you are, and knows that you are intentionally destroying this family. You can never be a permanent part of her life.

..............................

I don't think there's anything I can do about the IC, but I will give it a try

Nice letter!!

Good job on the letter, fight!

just had a brainstorm, think its a good one...

in our state judges ask kids of a certain age (ours are old enough) who they want to live with in a custody battle. I can tell her that if it should come to this I will be petitioning for custody, and why, and everything will come out.

Also if she leaves, ExH will obviously know and could petition for custody as well.

.

fight, listen to ML about the IC. When I got here, my WH was seeing an IC who was encouraging a separation (this is common for IC's to encourage this kind of stuff to waywards who are complaining about being controlled or needing space!).

Mel's first post to me was about losing the IC. I went and dug it up for you. It is from '07. I am so glad she posted this to me and that I listened...it could have been a disaster...


Link: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=146544&Number=1958889#Post1958889

The IC didn't work for me at all with regard to the marriage counseling.

In fact, the IC believed my WS and thought I WAS THE ONE lying.

In fact, he lied to the IC so well, that the IC said that I was horrible for wanting to make my ws want to remain married and that our best bet was to separate and "seek counseling for the pending divorce so we can be friends".

Is that the crap you want to pay for? Trust me. It was a total waste of time and $. My xwh had the whole IC snookered.

I like that word by the way. I wonder if the origin of that word has its' humble beginnings in Jersey?
[img:center]http://ts1.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=397536340348&id=05bcec0d9cc77e015b3ea1d5939232f0[/img]

Anyhow, like Dr. Harley says, IC is USELESS if the ws is still active in the affair. It does no good whatsoever. You can't HEAL a marriage where one is actively cheating.

Only see a MB counselor who uses real MB principles or get phone counseling from MB.

I asked WW if she would be interested in counseling that specializes in dealing with infidelity...answer was a flat no, nothing more said. Obviously, she understood that it would be with someone who was pro-marriage.

Another valley...I am really hurting. I feel like I need to vent some emotion but after last night I'm not sure

I feel really defeated right now and I don't know how much longer I can endure this pain

Answer was a flat no right now. You are not defeated not by a long shot. You don't quit on us, and we won't quit on you.

Try this the next time counseling comes up, fight - tell her you've heard of a great place where therapists counsel couples to help them turn an 'okay' marriage into a fantastic one. Don't talk about 'specializing in infidelity' - she'll immediately feel on the defensive and will refuse.

Sorry you're at such a hard point, fight - hang in there!

there is not the slightest crack in her resolve to end our M and continue the A.

She is set in stone right now, even after her meltdown last night. She is not going to joint counseling of any kind without a major change of heart.

I dont want to give up...but I am not seeing any light at all

nononono, you are not defeated! This is far from over. Please don't despair. This is a hard fight, fight, but it is FAR FROM OVER! You have a much greater chance of winning than does OM. See, 65% of marriages stay together after affairs, whereas, only 5% of affairs don't crumble within 2 years. This affair will crumble as it is kept out in the sunlight.

I would not expect her to agree to marriage counseling right now. She still believes there is hope in the affair. She is hoping to do damage control. You just need to chill out and stand firm against the affair while it goes into free fall.

You just hang tight here. This is going well. You need to focus on bursting her fantasy, so think of ways to do this. I need you to paint a very ugly picture of her future if the marriage does not survive. For example, let her know that if it comes to legal action, you will be suing on grounds of adultery and having the OM subpoeanaed. You will be letting the boys' father know of her affair so he can take steps from protect them from this corrupt man.

Paint it as ugly as you can. SHE NEEDS TO KNOW THAT YOU WON'T ROLL OVER. Most WW's fantasize about replacing the husband with the OM in an easy transistion. You will ruin her plans if you paint a picture of ruin and humiliation.

In fact, I would insist to her that you both sit down and tell the boys about the affair together. [ this will wake her the hell up] Make the case that since her affair effects them too, leading psychologists suggest that it is bad to give kids false explanations about the tension in the home. It teaches them dishonesty. use some of the facts cited here by Dr Harley:

Dr. Harley on telling the children:

here



here

here

well first off, as usual Mel, you are wellspring of hope. The knowledge you share has changed lives.

I finally slept last night. Woke up and realized that I am focused only on my rollercoaster, and not seeing the churn and turnoil of hers. This moring she finally allowed me a glimpse:

"I am so confused, I have to make sure I'm doing the right thing. I can't keep coming back to this point."

In would take this to mean that consequences are starting to be apparent. She is trying to prop up her resolve but reality is giving it a beating. She has acknowledged that DS1 will be "devastated". She looking for the magic way to move ahead w/OM but there isnt one.

I will be working on the ugly picture all day today so that when she gets home, a gallon of gasoline goes into the fire.

I think you can use this to fan the flames of reality that are licking at her feet. Tell her you know that DS1 is very upset and "have you thought about what we will tell him?" "I think we should be telling him the truth about the affair sooner rather than later so he understands the situation." "Psychologists recommend the children are told the whole truth.."

And even though she might not agree to do that right now, it will surely be a wake up call!

Another suggestion is to get an appointment with Steve Harley for yourself. He will tell you what to say to get her on the phone with him. [usually something like, this counselor wants to get your perspective so he can help me with all this] Once Steve gets her on the phone, he can be very effective in selling her on the prospect of finding that same romantic love in her marriage. He will tell her "wouldn't the ideal solution be to have those romantic feelings WITHIN your marriage?"

See, she doesn't believe she can have that within your marriage. He can show her how it can be done.


Yep! And you thought she was firm in her resolve. She is not! She is about as clear and decisive as a falling down drunk. She will swing back and forth until her alcohol is gone. That is why it is so important for you to keep the heat up under the OM's feet. [you are doing a great job on that, btw!]


Good man!! And don't allow yourself to despair. Truly, I know this is scary but there is nothing going on here that makes me think this is over. I have seen 10x worse than this do an 180 degree. Everything your wife is saying is a result of her fogbabble.

Mel -

Thank you...I think I see my reality clearly. If I give up, its over. If I do this halfway, its over. Either of these courses of action yields the exact result I fear. Also today I will be pumping up her 4 older brothers - who are squarely on my side - for round 2. Got lots to tell them about OM and the jeopardy this will put their nephews in.

The most logical solution for your wife and all concerned is for her to find the love she wants in your marriage. So she needs to understand 2 truths: 1. the affair is impractical and unworkable and 2. her marriage contains her best hope. The trick is to get through the fog and convey those truths.

Have you spoken to Dr. Harley, this will help you put together a personal plan for you........
Things aren't over, the fog is just really thick right now......it's early in the process and you still have lots of opportunity to show your wife you are the best man for her and your marriage is worth the effort to save....
She will realize now that the affair is in the open that it just isn't as great as she had dreamed it would be, the warts will soon show up on the OM........real life now has a way of damaging the fantasy world.........show her the ugly picture and future she can look forward to............
Be the man she married, always look good, smell good, work out........be happy, get on with your life.......I remember a story about a woman that would get all dressed up to the nines and then just go to the library and read, but her husband wondered where and what she was up to.........made him think and compare...............Plan A her the best you can........make her think about what she is giving up.
Remember you have a history and a life together that doesn't just go away......

Both of you are on a full-on emotional roller coaster. She has nowhere to go when she's feeling down about the M but YOU can come here and get encouragement. Do that when you are feeling down.

You are doing great. What is your plan for Plan A'ing her today/tonight? Having an actual Plan in place is very helpful, it gives you something positive to focus on.

What's yours for today?

my plan A...
A huge EN of hers is domestic support. So every day I make sure the kids are taken care of, homework is done, transportation arranged. I make sure she sees me interacting with them. When she gets home dinner is on the table (I have become an excellent cook in my role as Mr. Mom), the house is spotless. I have been impeccable in not letting any of this slide.

I've lost a little weight so I'm making sure to dress well and I splash on a little of her favorite cologne before she gets home. I continue to be affectionate and I tell her I love her every day. Tonight we are doing a yoga class together (we do this 2-3 X per week).

results of her couseling session...

1. she was told to slow down and create a rational basis on which to move forward.

2. a change in scenery will not make her a happy person

3. she cannot blame me for her lack of happiness and admits that the efforts we made together during NC did result in a greater level of happiness

4. she admits that she does not know whether or not to stay in the M.


Last item is huge, as she was unwilling to admit her mind wasn't made up previously

Great! Something out of the ordinary would be nice too...fresh flowers or something else to let her know you are thinking about her.

Don't worry, it's the fog...she is probably also VERY afraid of the work it's going to take to make up for this grievous crime. Give her some time and continue to be the lighthouse and show her what a great M you can have through your Plan A.

You are doing great.

MF - I'm not worried, this is her first admission that the M has any chance whatsoever. "I don't know if you're the right person for me" certainly carries an admission that she doesnt know that I'm wrong either.

Like I said, she is saying this to save face and also because she knows there is a sh*tload of work ahead of her if she wants to give the ginormous mess she's just made out of her life.

Don't tell her you know that however, it might be a LBer.

now that WW is on the fence it is up to me to help her see the reasons to stay/consequences of leaving.

The kids are the biggest thing. My boys & I have a wonderful relationship and even in the fog admits that have been a very good parent. This one is the easiest to break down - it is the simple devastation of a family caused by a corrupt OM (and her, if she allows it to happen).

I am not sure how to play the money card. Without getting to technical, my income is from early withdrawals from my IRA. I could certainly choose to work in addition to that. So I contribute like $80K to the household right now. At age 59 the withdrawal restriction are lifted and we will have a very substantial retirement income. WW would be entitled to nothing in a D.

she hates the money stuff. Considers it akin to blackmail. She resents me for even discussing it. But now that she is looking for a "rational basis" to sort this out, I need to find a way to bring this up without ticking her off.

Can she support herself alone?

Yes. she makes $100K, but has a spending problem. There are times every month where her checking acct is drained. She has $15K in credit card debt. There would be a major lifestyle adjustment - she hits Macy's for $3000 a month or so on average. she's gonna need a new car soon and has nothing socked away for it.

finally had a good night. Anxiety and sadness levels finally out of the danger zone. Awesome plan A night. We did our yoga class (I know it sounds a little fudgy but I played rugby for 11 years and this is every bit as tough). Came home to a nice meal I prepped ahead of time, surprised the W with flowers, watched TV with DS#2, hit the rack early, slept holding each other with Sonny, our 1-year old Zuchon in between us.

It was like the good ol' days, you know, the ones that made her so unhappy. She wants to spend the weekend together capped by a Valentine's Day dinner at one of our favorite eateries.

She seems to be guininely enjoying this, but I know OM is lurking and she is in contact with him. Therefore tonight I present the brutal realities, contrasted against the very nice evening just completed.

fight4life - hey, I played rugby too! It sounds like you're well on your way.

Andy, I am really drawing on that mindset in attacking the A. Its the same viciousness and disregard for personal safety as laying a big hit into fat-butt prop. It might not work out in the short term and its gonna hurt but its part of the effort required to ultimately win.

F4L - I'm drawing on this experience too! I'm a 2nd row player and the exposure feels like blowing someone off the edge of a ruck. Now, the match is continuing and I'm waiting for the next hit. I just don't know when or where it's coming from. In my situation, the short term is going to be tough. I guess this will be a bunch of pick-n-go's for a while. The only difference is that I'm the only guy doing it. There's no help available from my fellow mates.

I'm going to call some members of WW's family today to encourage them to keep the heat on. I'm looking for some guidance on this.

I want to say that in spite of her reaction their words have had an impact. As reality begins to set in she is faced with brutal consequences - the worst of which is the terrible damage that will be done to her children. Maybe I can get them to throw in that they can never accept the man who took advantage of her vulnerability to take this awful step.

veteran feedback on this next step would be greeatly appreciated.

F4L - I read your point in another thread about accepted the other man and that's true. I never thought about that until I read it. Remember, that goes the other way too. If your WW has met any of the OMs family - she's probably going to get some looks from them too. In the fog babbble, my wife said last night that the OM won't talk to her. I don't know if that's true or not, but I'm obviously hoping it is. That would be a factor in her feeling down - maybe exposure is doing its job. I just don't know. Her entire mind set is on divorce right now, the mechanics of how to handle our son, divide up assets, etc.

I would call them, if the family are anti-affair/pro-marriage and state they will never accept OM it helps you. You used the words "her children" play this as "our children" even though family know the status it gives them the message of a single family unit .

Perfect idea. If they point out how devastating this will be for the boys and how they will never accept this bum into the family, that will splash some cold water on her.

When you have you talk with her tonight, be sure and emphasize that the boys need to be told what she and the OM are doing. Tell her that she needs to end her affair NOW or this will lead to divorce. You will not live like this. Ask her to send him a no contact letter. Tell her you have a plan to bring the passion and romance back to your marriage.

Do you have the book Surviving an Affair? The no contact letter is in there. And if you don't have it, I would get it today.

yes, I have SAA, and have read it twice

I would have a copy of that no contact letter in your back pocket today and ask her to end all contact with the OM. Tell her it is cruel and hurtful for her to continue contact while in your house.

And I would very much insist you tell the boys about the affair. Since it poses a potential threat to them, they need to know. I honestly think that telling her boys about the affair may kill it, fight. That will be a shock that might wake her up when she sees the horror on their little innocent faces.

I might say it like this: "these boys have a right to know about your affair since this affects them too. Psychologist say that it is poison to lie to little kids about this. Lets go set them down and tell them about your affair and about your plans to break up their family for your affair. They have a right to know."

Hi (fill in the blank family member),

Thanks so much for your support through this, it's been really brutal. WW is still on the fence and I'm devastated ~I really love her and the boys and want to make this work. I've already found a counselor who specializes in helping couples heal after an affair and I have a ton of hope ~ trouble is, she is still on the fence.

How would you feel about letting her know in no uncertain terms that this POSOM will never be welcome in your family? I think this will be a wake-up call to the reality of her what her life will be like if she doesn't dump him. I can't stand to think of what this will do to the boys.

Thanks for your support man...really appreciate it.

F4L

weekend update...

We had an excellent plan A weekend. Exercised together twice, took her to dinner Friday, lunch on Sat & Sun. Went to DS1's lax game. We were together 45 of the 48 hours. No A talk, no LBs. Gave me 5 or 6 compliments.

I talked a lot about the things that I admire about her, about the things I enjoy doing together and some of the things that I'd like to do together in the future. I also had a conversation about consequences which clearly upset her. Not much in the way of response, just respectful listening. I could see the churn at various points throughout the weekend - the heavy sighs, the far-away gazes, the mournful expressions, hearing the stomach doing summersaults.

We are taking an overnight trip to visit a college w/DS1 the end of this week, and she wants to do something together on the holiday on Monday.

She knows my conditions for staying together. Things are eerily placid on the surface. Is there a move for me at this point?

okay, the A has survived the inital shock of exposure. Feathers were ruffled but it seems like its settled into a game of wait and see. WW is mulling over what to do and I am doing my best to avoid becoming an emotional puddle during the day, and plan A'ing once she comes home.

We had a family dinner in a restaurant last night. She thanked me for a wonderful evening. But I also know she believes she is "in love" with OM and they are in daily contact on the phone (they have not seen one another since August).

I don't know if I should be letting her absorb the realities (we are only a week out from exposure) while doing plan A or if I should get more contentious.

Part of me says to lay low for a little while because I am only now getting my feet underneath me. I have a meeting set up for this week to help boost my income so that I will be in a position to keep the house w/o WW's salary and therefore make a pitch to keep the kids in their home.

I would appreciate any feedback our salty veterans have to offer.

fight4life - hang in there! I exposed on 2/7 & 2/8. I personally plan on Plan A'ing for as long as I can. It's extremely difficult at times. We had a family dinner last night that went well. I think your WW is further along than mine, I get no thanks and definitely no card, no hug, no nothing. I'm being told nightly that divorce is the only option and that she 'hates' me for exposing the affair. That was the final nail in the coffin, yada, yada, yada....

Like you, I think that I'm getting my balance back. I'm meeting with an attorney tomorrow to see about my legal options. She's agreed for me to have 100% custody of our DS and that I stay in the house. Trying to minimize the trauma to our DS. I need to get that in writing - in a legal separation probably.

This ain't easy - but you're still in the game.

you're still in the game too, Andy. Seems like the 2 of us and stretch are running parallel courses, more or less.

the more she hates you the more you've disrupted her fantasy. don't forget that.

Thanks f4l! She told me last night she's "humiliated." Good news for her is that parts of her family are circling the wagons around her. However, there's a notable hold out, her closest sister. A mother figure to her and she's fired up.

What happened with my suggestion to tell the boys? I would focus on bringing as much hell into her affair as possible. You can't let up. What about a background on loser boy? Is alienation of affection lawsuits available in your state?

Raise holy hell, fight!!

thanks Mel, i will not let up. I guess I just needed to hear that I needed more stick

alienation is not available

background - WW is already aware that he is in AA and that he made his family suffer a lot with infidelities and other shenanigans. He is an ex-cop

regarding the boys, I am working on something - not avoiding anything - need a couple of days to get ducks lined up, a couple of legal questions, a couple of financial questions.

one other piece that I think I can add - I gave up my career to be a full time dad. I don't know if I can leverage that as well but i am finding out

okay raising holy hell...

this is what I plan to tell her tonight

When we were married, you had the idea of having the boys join us in the ceremony. It was an utterly brilliant idea; everyone commented on how beautiful it was. Remember, I married not just you but DS1 & DS2, I made promises to them as well, promises from which I will never turn away.

I say this not to hurt you, but rather to let you synthesize the reality of the situation. A man who would intentionally destroy another family for his own selfish reasons is bad person and is corrupt to the core. That he has done similar things in the past is no surprise; that he we do it again in the future is a certainty. Therefore, I feel I have to protect the children from being exposed to such an immoral person.

If you decide to leave this marriage I will ask that the boys continue to live here with me. They would sleep in their bedrooms, in their home, with everything familiar around them, eat their same favorite meals and have the least disruption to their lives. I don�t want them to suffer one iota more than necessary.

They also have to know that nothing can stop me from being their father and that I want us to be a family. They have a right to know that it�s your choice to tear it apart and that I stand ready to do anything to bring us all together again. I cannot lie to them about that.

If I have to, I will petition for custody. Anyone in our state can do this, and I will be compelled to do so. That will probably mean suing on grounds of adultery, OM will be forced to testify, and phone records will be subpoenaed.

I would imagine that the court will inform ExH of the situation and he could choose to petition for changes as well. I certainly would like to keep him out of it, but I don�t know that it can be avoided.

I tell you this in the interest of you making your decision with eyes wide open and because I have to demonstrate to the boys that my love and commitment to them depends on no other factors. They are not disposable and I can�t let them endure another episode of being left without a father.

@fight4life -

The first thing I thought about your post is that it will come across as desperate. Don't do it. It will come out as a Disrespectful Judgment. Do demand the A end or it will end in divorce. Don't say to WS how much better this marriage will be if you only will commit.

You can't convince with words, a Wayward, that they need to choose BS. Plan A is about actions. Convince WS that you are capable of meeting ENs and you are safe to be with by removing LB behavior.

I think that sounds like a good thing to say to your WW, I can't see any reason NOT to. It does not sound desperate to me and I'm not sure how it's a DJ? It's all the truth.

If you find her talking to POSOM on the phone in your house, NEVER allow this. Go to her and demand she stop disrespecting you and your family in such a heinous mannter.

If she refuses to tell the boys TODAY, I would take matters into your own hands and tell them yourself. I did not wait for my FWH to "agree" to tell our kids about his A ~ I just told them. It's highly unlikely she's going to agree to this and the sooner you get their support (and she gets their disgust), the better off you are.

Don't wait any longer, tell them today, IMHO.

I have been using plan A to the hilt...she got flowers, cards and a nice dinner for Valentine's Day, she has told me many times that she is pleased with what I've done to improve our home life, she loves my cooking and what I am for the boys.

my VAR today played a conversation where she is still plotting to see POSOM next month. I feel like I need to back her up with something, put some heat on her somehow

Don't give up your source. Oh and of course put the heat to this.

Details on how she plans on meeting with POSOM.

Tell her what you wrote in your post. She needs to know that she stands significant unhappiness in continuing her A. She doesn't get that right now because you're using a lot of carrot. She needs some stick.

all I know is she's planning something for Mon Mar 14

she'll probably tell me 'oh I'm going to dinner with so-and-so' at the last minute or maybe she'll take a secret day off from work and they'll meet somewhere

I can't worry about that now, its still a while off, I need to start interfering more

Agreed. Use some stick. You are not a doormat and she needs to understand that in no uncertain terms.

You are willing to continue being the best H you can be and make your M better than ever but she MUST END HER AFFAIR for it to continue.

this is going from bad to worse.

I need a plan B here, quick. I feel like exposing to the boys and then going someplace where I don't have to be feel red-line anxiety and emotional exhaustion all the time

That is the whole point of plan B, when I told my boys of their fathers affair and his plan to leave the family somehow that lifted a weight off my shoulders. All of a sudden I didn't need to hold the burden in anymore, the important people to me knew and now I could actively protect them from any untruths...........
Right now times are tougher for you to get through but remember for today it's one foot in front of the other, get through one minute and then the next.
Remember to take care of yourself, your boys need you...........

Start writing your Plan B letter, get an IM lined up.

The IM is NON-NEGOTIABLE. This is a MUST for Plan B.

MF -

I see that your sitch changed during plan B. It just feels so much like giving up, I am so afraid for my boys. Can you tell me how it worked for you?

How what worked for me? Plan B?

yes, what do you think occured during plan B to alter the course of your M?

I think my H woke up to the realities of life without me and without our family.

He woke up to the devastation he had caused over a FANTASY. Even during the A (false recovery, I didn't know the A was still on) he told me he knew it wasn't "real" ~ that he wasn't real with the OW and she wasn't real with him.

He woke up to who he may very well be stuck with since I was now out of his life ~ and he did not like that reality. That was never his plan but now I had taken the option of ME out of his life.

He woke up to the loneliness of what being a single man and father was really like...since once the reality hit him that deep down he knew he would never end up with the OW, and *I* was gone...he was now ALONE.

fight...my H now cherishes me very much. He sees what he almost lost. We are not fully recovered, but we are getting closer every day.

Sometimes absence makes the heart grow fonder, IMHO. Not always, but sometimes.

I am hopeful that my WW will come to same realizations...I take care of the house/yard, taxi the kids, do all the cooking and cleaning, household errands, etc. She will find her free time ground down to nothing while trying to carry on a long distance A with a man who cannot help her in these ways

I also know that the boys will be very unhappy about this and hopefully that will help her finally see what she is doing to her family.

I'm a bit confused, looking for some clarity

The havoc I've created appears only to be between WW and myself. Her conversations w/OM never are about her homelife. She doesn't complain about me, he doesn't ask anything about the future except as it concerns the A. It seems like it is still totally in the bubble.

We have guys here in similar situations who are hunkering down for an extended Plan A. I can do this if its what's needed. But that seems to me like it would be enabling the A - taking care of the home front while the A stays safe and protected and I don't want to do that. Things are calm & warm between us but she is clear that she is only "trying to make sure she isn't making a mistake".

I can also move on to plan B, where suddenly all of the proctection of my managing the home disappears. I don't want to allow her to continue this thing on her time table.

Any and all suggestions and comments are welcome. The only thing I have left is exposing to the kids. Can that be done and stay in the house? What can your experiences teach me?

fight4life - You're right, I'm in a similar boat with my WW - I think the only difference is that my WW's affair is broken up. We're definitely in conflict, as expected by the vets. I'm prepared to hunker down and Plan A as long as possible. There is one caveat, come April WW will have to make a decision. Either she moves out or we start counseling - if she continues to stay in the house. I'll probably get some 2x4's for that, but I feel it's a way to turn up the heat on her.

Our 5 year old DS has spent a couple of nights in her room - that's more nights than he's ever spent in our bed, ever. So, for now, I'm going to Plan A, as best I can. I think that's the right approach, but the vets can set me straight.

Hi fight, I would not move to plan B for awhile. A BH needs to stay in a longer Plan A and just cause as much holy hell as possible in the affair. Dr Harley says the OM should hear from you every time he tries to contact your wife. You should be confronting her every time about her affair. Continue to expose the affair and do everything in your power to insert reality.

I would set a time line and continually tell her that this will go to divorce if it doesn't stop. Dont' tell her your timeline, but don't plan on going longer than 6 months from D-Day to filing for divorce. Your mileage will vary on this, but you need to start making plans to go into Plan B NOW, so you will be ready within a few months. Some men can only last 2 months.

I would strongly advise you tell the kids. That will be a wake up to her when she is forced to explain this to the kids.

I know I have to tell the kids. I've resigned myself to doing it.

I know what I'm going to hear...that I'm using them, that DS1 has his SATs coming up, DS2 has his confirmation coming up, etc.

But I do see that if I can weather that particular storm, the onus for breaking up the family will be squarely on her, because they will know that I am committed to staying together if she ends the A. She has never been able to deny them anything and this will really wreak havoc for her. I totally see that it is a game changer.

Did you save the quotes I posted from Dr Harley? If she objects, tell her that a leading psychologist says it is damaging to lie to children about the source of tension in their homes. It teaches them dishonesty. It is lies and adultery that poison little kids, not the truth. Tell her the kids have a right to know that she is willing to break up their family over nothing. Since they are the ones who will pay the price, they have a right to know and she should answer their questions about that.

fight4life - You're in my thoughts as you approach this difficult time. My DS is 5 and has no real idea of what's going on. He knows that his mom wants to get 'unmarried' and that his dad does not. I made it very clear to WW that I will put it back on her, when he asks about it. She didn't look happy, but it's only right. She's the one that's running out on her family, not me.

thanks Andy, and likewise. I am stronger now than last week as the inevitability of this step has sunk in. but I will still hate to do it.

Mel - yes I have the quotes and am getting my ducks lined up

caught a conversation btwn WW & OM on my VAR. Heard some of the most awful vile stuff - she thinks I'm emotionally damaged, can't stand being around me, brought up porn she found years ago, says this is the only relationship that she regrets having in her life. Says she's just trying to stick it out until school is done for the year. She called my ExW to compare notes. Not surprisingly, she got what she was looking for (ExW also was a wayward). She is totally checked out of the M.

I feel like I should talk to the kids tonight and go straight to plan B. I need some support in the worst way right now

F4L, I haven't posted to you before, but I can feel the urgency in your post, so here I am, FWIW.

Some things to consider:

Waywards lie. They say anything and everything to self-justify their behavior. They intrinsically know that having an affair is wrong, so they have to find a way to lower their standards to calm their immorality.

The choice of trying to recover a marriage falls to the betrayed spouse (BS). This site is about marriage building, but not "marriage at all costs." So this is what you have to reconcile within your own head:

• Do you want to recover your marriage?
• Have you followed the Harley's program to the best of your ability (have you done Plan A - honestly and completely)?
• Has your exposure of the affair been total and nuclear?

In other words, have you done everything in your power to do what you can? Can you walk away from this marriage knowing that you gave it your all?

If the answer is yes, then it's probably time for Plan B. You should draw up a letter to hand to her when you insist she leave (*she* leaves, got it?). In it you spell out the conditions for her return (no contact for life with OM, etc.). Then you close the door and go dark.

You may never hear from her again (I haven't from mine). And you need to be OK with that. Plan B is as much about as YOU recovering as recovering your marriage.

If you choose to Plan B (or Plan D, for that matter), please continue to post here and let us help and guide you.

Maybe this has helped, maybe it hasn't. But know at least that there is an entire army of Marriage Builders behind you!

thank you for the speedy reply...I know she exaggerated, she has given me a very different picture, but it still stings like mad to hear it.

I have been plan A'ing since Sept (she broke NC in Dec). I didn't expose until dday #2 earlier this month. I exposed widely, but not to the children (16 & 13). I was going to do that friday until I heard her call.

The thing that really got me was she called me shortly after ripping me to OM and also to her SIL and asked if I would make such n' such for dinner, all sweetness and light. It absolutely chilled me. Its a brand new level of betrayal.

If it's any comfort to you, F4L, she is not any different than a cast of thousands.

My WxW spent Super Bowl Sunday with me, cooking, cleaning and just being Mrs. Fred_in_VA. We sat down to watch the game, with fresh food and hot bread and proceeded to enjoy ourselves.

At half time she got up, put on her jacket and said she was "going out" to watch the rest of the game "on a really big screen" (his). And oh, she probably wouldn't be back that night."

I was left standing there with food in my hands going "Wh- wh- what???"

There is no measure to the mindset of a wayward. Trying to understand one is like trying to figure out why a drunk keeps drinking.

She's foggy, this isn't shocking OR unusual. We've ALL heard our WSs say similar things and then call us right back and act all "sweetness and light". It's very hurtful but not at all unusual.

Tell the children tonight and then go straight to Plan B. First on your list ~ write you PBL and get your IM lined up. Plan A her for 1-2 more days while you work like mad getting this stuff done.

okay...eff this, I'm done being a sad sack. If I'm going down, I'm going down swinging. I'm getting into therapy to work on my personal R. I am going to be the man she married and present a viable alternative. Still gonna expose to the kids, staying in the plan. When I reach the end of my rope I'll make more damn rope.

MF - she won't leave the house until June (although that may change when I expose). She has nowhere to go, especially with 2 kids in school. I won't leave my house, my M or my family. If she wants to go and leave the kids, so be it (can't see it though). I think she'll stay here for the time being.

fight4life,
I love the attitude, never give up on yourself and all that is important to you........
I used to say one thing that my husband and his OW underestimated was ME!!!!!
I found the strength in me I didn't know I had, I was proud of how I was able to plan and conduct myself in a civil, fair way.................I was determined that NO ONE was taking my life from me..................NOPE.............I felt very powerful and focused...........
You give up you lose............

f4l - looks like we're still barrelling down parallel tracks. Hang in there!

f4l, where is she going to go in June? (sorry if I missed it.)

I don't know, but I think what she has in mind is me leaving. She has no savings to buy anything. she's dropped hints like "I'll understand if you can't accept this and want to leave"

plus this house was purchased with a significant amount of my money as a down payment, which I would argue is a preexisting asset

And you can respond: "I have no intention of leaving my home and my family. I will not be punished because of YOUR affair. That was YOUR decision and YOU need to make adjustments in YOUR life to accommodate YOUR affair."

If she won't end the A I would begin ASKING her, as a courtesy to you and the boys, to LEAVE.

Politely tell her the disrespect and pain she is causing is just too much and you fear a nervous breakdown. MB phrased it nicely ~ this is HER choice to have an A, not yours; therefore SHE needs to go, not you.

Ask her friends and family to keep the pressure on her. If you are paying for anything that is supporting the A (cell phone, computer access, etc.), cut that off immediately, no warning.

Never forget the goal of cheating is to have BOTH. Waywards want both a spouse AND a boyfriend/girlfriend on the side.

In order to keep both, WW told OM what he wanted to hear and then told you what you wanted to hear.

It's cruel and cold-blooded and beyond selfish, but that's what you have to do in order to keep two people dangling.

Just try to remember that in a bizarre way, it's not personal. In her mind, she's just doing what she has to do to keep her two men in her life.

But believe me, I do understand how very much it hurts.

a common friend (who WW introduced me to) had lunch w/her today. She vented her outrage over exposure. The gall! The injustice! I have seen very little of this except on the 1st day. Glad to hear she's still burning 2 weeks later.

He told her he was there as her friend and everything was in confidence, and promptly called me from the car on the way out to give all the details.

She told him essentially what she's told me. Hasn't made a final decision, wants to get thru the school year, acknowledges that I stepped up to the place since dday #1 and that I am good parent.

Another day in paradise...just gonna keep working it

F4L,

You know OM might already be with another woman, get a PI to figure out when the woman is at his place drive your W down there and drop her off, instant death of fantasy.

God Bless
Gamma

OM is in another state and has loads of freedom. He is always flirting on FB. I wouldn't be surprised. I'll make calls tomorrow, maybe I can set something up this weekend. There goes another G.

holding off on the PI for now...OM is an ex-cop and my ExW told WW that I had her followed by a PI (not true, but whatever). Will pick that one up in a couple of weeks.

WW knows that I plan to stay in the house and that I am pursuing a job w/a fortune 500 company here. We have a date on Saturday where the COO of the target company will be joining us socially.

She assumed that I would be the one to leave (we are both from ~200 miles away) so that is a big monkey wrench in her vision of the future.

told WW this morning that someone dropped a dime on her and told me she called ExW, said she was just overjoyed to compare notes on what a piece of crap I am.

While she did not deny it, she took issue in a big way about the timing of the conversation. Says I always wait until morning or when she's at work to mention things, hinting that I am trying to mess her up at work. None of this is true and it troubles me that everything is construed to reconfirm that I am this rotten bum.

Nice way to try to take the heat off and make this YOUR problem. Good grief, like there is EVER a right time to bring this stuff up. If you'd brought it up tomorrow, she would have accused you of trying to ruin her weekend.

I would have responded "Yes, this is a terrible time for you to have an affair. It's ruining my day as well. Your timing could not be any worse."

best weekend since dday...

we put the ExW call behind us and went to DS#1's lacrosse game fri night, good times, lots of friends around. Sat we had a date. Again, good time, WW appreciated the effort I'm making.

But the big news happened today. We had a very civil conversation about the whole thing. I told her I am staying in this house if she leaves and the kids could stay with me permanently. She said I would never get custody. I said maybe not, but I'm staying and the judge will ask them where they want to live.

We talked about telling the kids and this killed her. She had something like a panic attack - heart pounding, light headed, stomach doing summersaults. DS#2 asked her what was wrong and she said we're having M trouble. He cried and demanded "You have to make this work!"

She is a puddle right now - really powerful internal conflict going on. Sorry for your troubles, says I, but this was inevitable.

I would smile if I weren't so heartbroken for that boy. But this is exactly why I wanted you to tell those kids. You can see the effect it is having on her. She needed to see it and I applaud you for bringing this up to her. I would keep reminding her how heartbroken the boys will be, ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY FIND OUT THIS IS ALL FOR SOME SORRY SCUMBAG WHO LIVES IN A BASEMENT AND DOESN'T GIVE A RATS [censored] ABOUT THEM. <----make certain she understands you will not sit by idly and lie to those boys to cover up her crime.

Mel -

This is so perfect. She let the cat out of the bag, so now I can't be blamed or threatened. I told DS2 that there is nothing I won't do to keep our family together but if she thinks she'll be happier apart, I can't stop her from leaving.

I also told WW today that my committment to the boys is a forever thing and that there is no portion of poop for me to eat that will ever change that.

I wish you would consider getting phone coaching from Steve Harley and let me explain why. Your wife is torn about leaving you because it doesn't make practical sense for her. You are the logical choice.

The only thing lacking is that she has fallen out of love with you and doesn't even know that she can fall back in love if she uses this program. If she knew she could not only fall in love with you she would probably choose you. But she doesn't believe that.

That is why I am hoping you try to get her on the phone wiht Steve. He is going to sell her on the fact that he can show her how to fall in love with you. That will remove the last obstacle holding her back.

my intention was to get things in motion tomorrow for a session with Steve. No idea what the lead time is, but I will find out. I will absolutely encourage her to join me, but I am going forward with it regardless of her answer.

I have told her that choosing to remain married is not the end of the road, but the beginning of a process that includes a proven plan for restoring everything in our M. I've said it is a requirement of our remaining together.

Right now I think there has been a shift from "I just want to make sure I'm not making a mistake" to "hold on, I need to think about this more carefully"

I need to exploit that before this guttersnipe shifts her thinking back.

Have you talked to Steve yet yourself? Because he won't counsel you together anyway. She doesn't need to be there at first.

I would set up the appointment for you ALONE and then have Steve tell you how to get her on the phone for the next session. [he splits the sessions - 30/30]

He will give you talking points to use to persuade her to get on the phone for the NEXT appointment.

then that's the plan.

this morning as WW was getting ready for work she said she's reached a decision...

She said that she can't do this to the children, and that I have done everything in my power to give her what she wants from me with nothing in return. She has agreed to NC and MB counseling.

I have learned here to expect the unexpected turn of events though. I am thrilled, of course, but am just as wary of the next move the roller coaster might take. I am just as tied up in emotional knots as on d-day. I know we've reached a crucial point but my fear for the future has not abated one iota.

Stay calm. Stay MB

F4L - that's great news. I'm cautiously optimistic for you. I hope this is the beginning of a beautiful recovery!

Thank you Recon & Andy

Andy - 48 hours ago WW showed not the slightest crack in her resolve, but she was privately waffling. Obviously, all of our efforts have a cumulative effect. I am not looking forward to her withdrawal.

Call and get an appointment with Steve for yourself !!

This is great news, but we need to just keep this headed in the right direction.

The next thing will be to ask her to end all contact with the OM. Will she send a no contact letter to him? And how will she assure you there is no more contact?

Mel -

Yes, she will send a no contact letter. We have not discussed assurances/precautions but that will be on the agenda tonight.

she laid out her plan for breaking it off. OM's son is deploying to Afghanistan this weekend and he is visiting him until Friday. They will have minimal contact this week. He will be home Friday and she'll drop the hammer then. She has already called OM's brother to make sure he'll have people around so he doesn't start drinking (he is in AA). He won't know what's coming until then, and then KABOOM!

Say WHAT?? She is going there?? OH NO. OH NO. That is not acceptable. You should not agree to that.

Here is what should happen:

here


[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, XXXXX

Yes she needs to write a NC letter and that is IT. She is NOT to see him in person. I know what happens when they try to break it off in person and trust me, you don't want that.

A NC letter is PLENTY. She doesn't need "closure" or any other nonsense. IMHO you need to demand that a NC letter ONLY is acceptable.

P.S. great news that she has agreed to recovery with you! Call SH today and get the next available appt. He will help you come up with a plan to get her onboard!

F4L,

She has already called OM's brother to make sure he'll have people around so he doesn't start drinking (he is in AA).

WHAT!? His welfare is no longer of her concern.

FWIW you should start an account for him at the local liquor store and have cases of the cheapest alcoholic beverages purchased in bulk delivered to his house.

God Bless
Gamma

I know, believe me, I know. My insistence nearly derailed this. I would not have backed off if I thought I could push it any further.

YOU NEED TO PUSH THIS FURTHER.

This isn't good. Not this way. ALL waywards want to end it like this. Any that do, do it WRONG.

there will be no face to face meeting. WW has not seen OM in more than 6 months. She knows that NC and MB are my requirements

I would LOVE to do this by the book IMMEDIATELY

I have done plan A like a fiend since September. It has been a critical factor in her decision, once I got the stick more involved. I don't like this one bit, but I know when i've pushed her as far as I can.

I'm afraid she's just sent a smoke signal to OM through his brother. She owes nothing to OM and isn't his mommy. How he takes the news that his married girlfriend wants to do the right thing is not her business and she should not be orchestrating his response in any way.

Okay, water under the bridge now. f4l, you're really going to have to ramp up your snooping. The chance is good that she's letting him know that he'd better step up to the plate if he wants to 'keep' her.

VAR retrieved from her car at work. She called SIL and MIL letting them know she's staying in the M. No call to OM. Snooping is in overdrive.

Good job! Keep it up!

Can you please go over to the snooping forum and start up a thread educating folks on the use of the VAR? please?

appointment with Steve tomorrow afternoon. I think I just wet myself a little.

Fantastic. Have a notebook handy and take notes.

for the price I thought maybe i'd get a transcript or something.

besides the notebook, is there anything that would help me get the most out of a session with Steve? I've spoken to counselors before, but I'm kinda nervous about this

Have some knowledge about the basic concepts (I'm assuming you already do). This will save a lot of time.

Steve's pretty good at being clear and concise with what he's telling you so taking notes is pretty easy. I STILL have my notes from when we counseled with him and if I look back at them now, they're very clear because of the way he explains things.

If you have any questions you want to ask him, write them down ahead of time so you don't forget!

Holy crap! Anyone who wants to save their M is doing themselves a great disservice if you don't talk to Steve Harley. I have spoken to counselors before, this was 1000 times more productive.

more good news...WW had an IC session today where she said she is kicking OM to the curb and her IC told her she'd made the right decision.

Hopefully this will send OM over the edge. I don't an ounce of humanity for this souless cretin and am certain that front row seat in hades awaits.

yippee!! What did he tell you in your session?

I gave him the basic info for about 30 minutes, just answering his questions...what are WW's issues in the M, who/how did you expose, background bio stuff. Then he laid out the plan. He said we have to deal with the injury of the A first and went step by step how its done, explaining in great detail, making sure I was understanding it. Said not to share that with WW, that was his job. Finally gave me some excellent pointers on how to approach WW to get her talking to him. I left feeling like it was a scientific equation and that if WW does the steps it WILL result in a connected fulfilling M that is filled with love.

BTW, session lasted 75 minutes.

SEe why I wanted him to talk to your wife?? If he can talk to her, he can SELL HER on the prospect of getting the same love in her marriage she got in her affair. That will bring her back to you. I am so glad you did this!

Don't you feel so much more hopeful now?

Just in case someone missed this.

Mel, you seem to be under the mistaken impression that you still have to convince me to listen to you. I think if you told me to dance naked on Main Street with an umbrella and 3 circus chimps, I would.

I paid him to say dat...

Now don't let that go to yer head there, Mel! The hair stands high enough already.

Higher the hair, the closer to God!

Our sessions with Steve usually lasted more than an hour, too.

The only negative thing I can say about speaking with him is that he was typically running quite late (like doctors), but we didn't mind because we knew he was spending extra time with his clients.

He talks until the conversation is complete, not until the 60 minute timer beeps.

This is exactly right ~ it IS an equation, based on actions and not "feelings". (ENs+ENs)-LBers=Great Marriage.

Simple.

P.S. our sessions were always longer than an hour too.

Uh-oh. This is how she pulls them in...makes them grateful and then they're her willing minions...parading down streets naked...cavorting with hairy animals...they become her willing toadies to do her bidding...it's madness, I tell you, madness!

Well, its done, WW has ended it with OM. She never waivered since announcing this was her intention. Right now she just wants to be left alone. Don't really like that, but I'll only irritate her if I don't let it be. Better to let the scar form before engaging her.

When discussing the terms of NC, I asked that she tell me immediately if it is broken. She said, almost proudly, "HE won't do that." I know this probably didn't help me but I couldn't stop myself. I said, "Really? I guess that makes him an honorable scumbag. Don't forget that he was perfectly willing to destroy a family and do some serious damage to our kids without an effin' care in the world." She got real quiet and then just kinda mumbled "I know." If was exhilirating to urinate on that particular illusion.

She gets a short hiatus, then I'm setting her up with an appointment with Steve. I'd like to know when I get to start feeling better.

For any newbs out there, I never thought I would get to this point. I thought she would walk out upon exposure, then whenever I used the stick, thought OM would talk her out of NC. Our WWs control us with the threat of action, but if they were so courageous they wouldn't be in A's. Go ahead and expose, she is a paper bully, nothing will come of her anger.

Good phrase! "Paper bully" is absolutely right. And that was perfect what you said in response to the suggestion that the OM has any honor. Good grief. You are doing great!

Now, the hard part starts, I am sorry to say. It starts, that is, as long as you can get her on the phone with Steve. When you say "hiatus" what does that mean? One day? Because I sure hope it is not much longer than that. The faster she is on the phone with Steve the sooner she will start thinking of the promise of your marriage and the sooner she will start rendering aide TO YOU, her bleeding patient. You don't want her to sit there and stew in affair withdrawal without having something to fill the gap with. She needs to get on the phone this week!

When your wife starts treating your wounds. Steve will help her realize that you're the victim, you're her patient (as Mel said).

The sooner she speaks with him, the sooner that process begins.

How did she end it with OM?

I'd tell you to keep up the snooping, but I get the feeling you don't need the reminder.

Congrats F4L! I'm extremely happy for you and wish you nothing but the best as you work on your recovery. Keep in mind, it probably won't be a straight path, try to be patient.

that's exactly how Steve explained it. I am the patient, she is the doctor, he is the supervisor. By hiatus I mean very briefly. A day, two at most.

She ended it by calling him as he was leaving an AA meeting. Her care for his well being - and simultaneous disregard for mine - makes me want to puke. I have no illusion that she was motivated not by righting a terrible wrong but for concern for DS2. But as we know the A has to be killed by any means available and that is done. Whoop-de-freaking-do, like you say, now the hard part begins.

fight, you have a VAR in her vehicle, right? So you heard WW's side of the conversation with OM?

Like you said, phone convo after his AA meeting sounds like such a caring, intimate way to end things. I wonder if Steve will advise sending another NC letter.

she gave me the story accurately. OM basically yelled at her for 20 minutes, the POS. Later he sent me an email, which I promptly deleted. He has not attempted contact since.

Things are normalizing somewhat. Haven't set up another appointment with Steve, but the subject has been broached and she is not objecting.

We have a ton stuff set up over the next month - a broadway show, a fundraiser w/a dinner dance, hosting her family for DS2's confirmation. We also have a family vacation set up for June in Turks & Caicos & we're going to Las Vegas in December. It is soooo nice to be making plans 9 months out again.

When do I get to start refering to her as FWW?

When she recovers!


Go get it while the getting is good!! She may not agree tomorrow or the next day, so please move in while she is agreeable to this. I think one phone session with Steve will get her head on the right track.

And at what you said on the other thread about the potato chip!!

f4l ~ if I can recommend one thing ~ a mistake I made early into recovery ~ is do not set the bar too low. At the time I thought it was "high enough" only to find out it wasn't.

It's a huge mistake, got us into a false recovery and has made our "real" recovery h*ll. Don't do this. Don't fall for the "but I'm doing the best I can" line...if it isn't good enough, command more. It's really your only hope.

We've had one of the hardest recoveries I've seen. Hindsight is 20/20.

Steve advised me to tell her that the goal is to restore love in the M completely and to have no lingering issues from the A. I'm asking her to set up an appointment tonight.

Meantime we are spending A LOT of time together. We do yoga together 3 times a week, we call to check in with one another during the day, weekends are filled up. I feel like I'm beginning to get my life back, but at the same time I realize that there is a long road ahead.

I also feel like time is finally on my side, although I am anxious to make productive use of that time. I wish I could just enjoy not having to consider all the junk that runs thru your mind while the A is active.

It is also nice to have the tension turned down about 5 notches and to see the return of some of her better qualities. We have agreed to be radically honest with each other and I can see the ardor in her when she says "I will never lie to you again about anything."

F4L - YOU ROCK! That's awesome - I know you're not out of the woods by any stretch of the imagination, but this is great progress!

This is called the "honeymoon period". Most couples in recovery seem to go through it. Eventually it might settle back down to something closer to drudging through recovery but for now...enjoy it.

Also ~ read up on hysterical bonding if you haven't already. Don't be shocked if it happens to you and don't think it's weird. OTOH, don't be shocked if it DOESN'T happen and don't think that's weird either. Either way is ok but I like to warn people ahead of time what might be coming (no pun intended).

MF - this hysterical bonding concept is awesome, but I wonder what drives it. Is it the guilt or the true rekindling of a romance?

I have no idea...it's been suggested that it's our natural drive to want to build the intimacy that SF creates back up, as well as a re-claiming of what was "ours".

I just know it was freaking awesome and I wish hysterical bonding happened more frequently and NOT as the result of an A. LOL.

MF - LMAO - well, I haven't been anywhere near SF since January and it doesn't look like it'll happen in the near future either. So, I'm happy that it happens to someone out there. Wishing it'll be me some time in the future!

I'm sorry...that's so hard.

Oops...no pun intended, again.

Seriously...I am sorry. That sucks. Darn, I just did it again.

I better stop now, this is going to get worse before it gets better.

WW got up at 5:30 this morning and announced she will talk to Steve. I'm grateful, naturally, but I know we're on step 4 out of 100. Just wish I could fast forward this thing.

There were times when I was sure I would never even get this far, so I'm pleased, but this dang road seem soooooo long.

f4l - That's awesome, one day at a time, one step at a time. Looks like you're in the pattern.

thanks, Andy. I know I ought to be happier about this, but I really want to feel like I'm out of the woods but realize I'm not anywhere close just yet.

f4l, this is a huge step in the right direction! Good job!

smiling for you.........jessi

Yay!

It IS a long road but you are better off than many at this stage of the game. Still, it's hard and I understand that...eventually your anxiety will fade some. You have lots of positive steps in your favor!

f4l,

How are things going these days? Did your wife talk to Steve?

not yet, but we are setting up the appointment today. I didn't really want to delay it, but I realized that her level of receptiveness went way up by allowing her a week to decompress.

We are enjoying each other's company quite a bit...brutal yoga class last night, have a concert and a charity event this weekend.

One of the hard things for me right now it to even imagine WW being completely honest. When your spouse harbors a secret reality you almost come to expect it. Its also hard to imagine that someone who has treated you with callous indifference can suddenly care about you again. So I am waaaayy ready for her to talk to Steve.

F4L - Just checking in to see how things are going for you and WW. When's your appointment with Steve?

I'm in the same boat here--it's hard to let your defenses down once again and not try to always look for the hidden agenda. I keep saying "Well, someone has to go first, might as well be me" but when you keep getting bitten, it makes it even more difficult to do.

its been a while since I updated my thread & its been a wild ride.

Right after my last post, DS1 sustained a pretty bad injury in a lacrosse game, tearing 3 ligaments in his shoulder. Specialists, consultations, etc. Finally it is agreed that surgery is the best option, which takes 5 hours and they send him home with a script for 100 vicadin pills. FWW was a mess, so I kind of shepherded us thru this, which she acknowledged and was very grateful. Funny how we see opportunities to meet EN's everywhere once we get with the MB program.

About 10 days post injury as things just began to normalize, I develop some pain and swelling in my calf, but nothing major. After trying to ride it out for a few days, FWW says "do you think you might have a blood clot?" This sends me scrambling to the internet where I find that I have all of the symptoms. Go to the doc next day, get sent to the ER where tests confirms I have not one but 2 clots in my leg. They put me on blood thinners.

Then things get interesting. I get worse every day until (4 days later) I feel like my leg is going to explode because the pressure inside is so high. Back to the doc, back to the ER, some more tests, now I have "compartment syndrome" and need emergency surgery to release the pressure so it doesn't kill all the muscle and nerves in my leg. They tell me another day the way it was and I would have been gimped for life or maybe even needed an amputation. WTF!

I end up needing 3 operations in 5 days. They can't close the incision without taking a skin graft from my thigh, so now my whole leg is freaking mess. I spend 9 days in the hospital.

But all of this hootenanny is working wonders on my M. FWW is frazzled to the core. Between taking over my transportation responsibilitites and trying to keep the house in order, she is amazed at how much stuff I actually did for the family.

She is also amazed at the fact that I've had zero post-op pain. She thinks I have a super-human pain tolerence when the fact is it just doesn't hurt. She needs to feel admiration for me in order for our M to recover fully and this is helping big time. I keep telling her that it just isn't that bad and all that does is convince her that I am courageous in facing adversity even more.

This also has given her a chance to do things for me which makes her feel like she is 'working off her demerits' in a sense. At some point during all this she began wearing her wedding ring again and was shocked that I noticed immediately. She is ecstatic that I am following thru on my promise not to fall asleep on our M again.

So things are looking very hopeful right now. I would be lying if I said that I don't have moments of pain when my thoughts turn to her A or the emotional gauntlent I've had to run. I still have a lot of crap to work thru on that front.

Wow! I am glad to hear you are alright! Hoping you still have a plan for recovery and are following it?? You are at a critical fork in the road where you can go on the path of recovery or the path of a cripple version of the pre affair marriage. The pink cloud of relief will wear off soon.. Please don't take the wrong path after all the hard work you have done!

thanks Mel, and noooo,I will not let that happen! The pre affair marriage is a snake pit that I haven't the slightest interest in.

Unfortunately though, right now my physical recovery is using up all of the time my wife can get away from work, at least until I can drive again (2-3 weeks). I have 4 doctor appointments this week alone and I need her help picking up the slack around the house, so things like food shopping and bandage changes are pushing counseling sessions to the side. By I will not allow that to be a permanent thing.

F4L - I'm feeling bad for you, but extremely happy for your Marriage! It sounds like you have a great chance to get it all back. That's awesome. Here's to a speedy recovery!