I have a thread in the Divorce Busting Forums. Instead of starting from the beginning, here is the link:

**edit**
And the second:

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I decided to come here for more guidance and understanding. I have come much farther in the past 2 months than most would believe. At this exact juncture this is what I know.

My wife is having an Exit Affair, she believes she is in love with him and that he is her soul mate. She is in the fog.

Billman, please don't post links on our forum. Thank you.

Welcome Billman.

I see in your tagline "repaired" 11/01/2011...what does this mean?

Who have you exposed the affair to?

What is the status now, are you still living together?

This is what the links were for , I did not want to have to type everything all over, but I understand.

The repaired was:

3.5 years ago, we had another divorce situation. I was controlling and angry very often - not abusive. She had an emotional fling with a coworker. I moved out, and only 2 months had passed, the EP had moved several hours away and she asked me to come home - we did not fix our issues, but thought we were happy again.

The underlying issues resurfaced about a year and a half after, and then the second bomb.

The current Exit affair is physical and to the letter of an Exit Affair. I moved out of the house because at the time I was unaware of another person and believed that I was just giving her the space and time she needed.

A court order prevents me from being on the premises as of now. We own the home, and my emotional outbursts about the affair are what triggered the court order. I have since grown and learned what it is I need to do for healing, and do not pursue beg plead or talk about our marriage.

She believes she is in love with him and is currently well into the fog. As far as exposure, most of my family and most of hers knows about it. The one thing I have not done was told her employ. They work together. The reason for this is I cannot afford to survive the financial impact alone if she were to be fired. But I am teetering on the edge of doing so anyway. But we have 3 young children and that could make for a disastrous fallout.

Her affair partner is married, but claims to be separated. He has lied to her at least once, I am sure many more, but she is in the throes.

I have an ultimate faith and belief that she still cares for me, and I have hope that we can survive this - but I am having a hard time knowing how long I can hold on while I know this is happening and with the knowledge that I know it will most likely end - but indeterminate time.

Please ask whatever else you need to know.

You don't need to type everything all over. All you need to do is copy and paste your original post to the other forum, and a few others where you followed up with more details, into this thread.

I think you should do that, because I think people need the information about the other child you conceived and your explanation for how that happened, and about your anxiety condition, your addiction to online games, your general, long-term neglect of your wife and children, your burning the sheets a few months ago, the restraining order and the conditions imposed by the current court order.

well that is a lot to answer, so here goes.

To re-cap and be clear, this "event" with a woman you dated, occurred prior to the marriage?

No it was after, i was mistaken the timeline

Well...drunk or not, did you have sex or not?

I was passed out, i never drink, the OW confirmed that she essentially raped me and I was not conscious the entire time. I had drank an entire 12 pack. At the time my wife was a recovering teenage alcoholic and I never understood the "hype" of getting drunk - so i stupidly tried it. And to clear up it was after the marriage I was not thinking.

How did she find out about it anyhow? Was there other deceit involved?

She knew I was talking to her, During the first 2 years, I was not a very good person to her as I should have been. I loved her and gave her the world, but had anger issues that I was unaware of. The incident with the OW happened during a small breakup and my reason at the time was I was talking to her about how I was treating my wife. I had no intent of affair. At this point, even I did not know the OW and I had sex. almost 5 years later, the OW initiated a court order for a bloodtest and thats when this came out that she had a kid from sex that we obviously had. I tried to assure my wife i did not know, and the OW confirmed what happened - she never believed it.

The emotional cheating that refered to every two years or so: I never really "fixed" my anger, i just diverted it. I was always "in control" and she would talk to other people and would eventually have these friends that were there for her when she did not feel close to me. I was always unaware of these until I found out in some way. And again, I professed love and change without ever really getting the issue resolved.

Did you throw it in her face ever, or hold it over her head, or what?

No once it ended, i left it alone, I forgave her truly - but mainly because I guilted myself to believing it was all my fault.

Why did you think you had healed? And why did you believe SHE had healed? How did that supposedly happen?

Because she appeared happy again, and i would control my anger and anxiety issues (i did not know i had anxiety at this point). And we both fell back to our normal dead rhythm. We did not fix anything.

And did you really truly believe that her "emotional" cheating, whatever that means, is related solely to an event 10 years ago, and which you do not really feel responsible for?

I do feel responsible, and she had claimed forgiveness, I think i took it for granted, and she never really healed. I cannot be sure if that event was the only cause.

Are you certain Nothing else could be bothering her??

If I would just throw these answers out, she is materialistic, worries about money, believed marriage should be a fairy tale. And I was not consistent in any of these respects.

What do you mean by "she was of course" and "seeing another"?? Was she having an affair? Why do you say that and how do you know?

at this point 3.5 years ago, she told me she was talking to another man, she said it was not physical (well not to the point of sex). I never questioned it, so I cannot be sure of that. She has never been alone, i meant "of course" becasue everytime she tried to end us - there was another man involved - every time.

I am confused. 2 months after WHAT situation? Can you give me a thumb nail sketch of timelines here?

2 months after she dropped the 1st bomb, she let me back in. (Sept 2011 - Nov 2011)

What do you mean by "initial break",--(did you separate before?)

This refers to the (Sept 2011 - Nov 2011) break.

and What issues do YOU think caused that? This is VERY important.

That break was caused by my control. She did not have a license, or any freedom. It was not my intent, but i was suffocating her and did not realize it until then.

There is a major lack of trust going both ways. WHY do you think that is?

I did trust her, I thought she was happy, and took advantage that she said she wouldn't leave again. as far as why she didn't trust me. . work wise - i never held a job long. I cannot think of any other trust issues - I was always about her - i don't have a friend in the world (seriously) - let alone another woman to talk to.

1) why would she "again" confide in another man? When she would tell you problems she had, or when her feelings for you or the Marriage foundered, how did you react?
Were you supportive and reflective, but confident, or did you freak out on her? DIG DEEP...

no, that's just it. I would always talk about our issues, and what we could do to fix them, i did not yell or argue ever - since we got back together from the first break. Ever.

2) How did you learn that she was confiding in another man?

She was deleting her text messages, starting about a month before the first bomb. and I did not put 2 and 2 together until about a month After the bomb. She had a girlfriend and she claimed it was always her she was talking to her. I confronted her after that month ish, and she confirmed they were "friends" and they had been for awhile. I knew what that meant. SHe was "involved" in some way, before the bomb.

Do You mean she "threatened" or said she "wanted" a divorce - OR DID YOU Bring it up first?

She told me she was unhappy about 2 months before the 2nd D. she explained that it was about my recent job loss and our finances going to crap. And I was a boring father, i was not attentive to the children, not mean or bad - just lazy parent. - at this point I started to change that, looked for a 2nd job, and was Much more active with the kids. but nothing was getting better. She had also said during this conversation that "I am not going to leave you, I am not doing that again"
One day, i woke up and made the dumb stupid decision to suggest we should get a D. - and she ran for it. Right to his arms.

...keep peace with you, she pretended to concede and said she'd stick around? Is that about how you see it now?

Yup

Sorry to ask, but I need clarity so I can make suggestions, and this ^^ is vague to me. '
What do you mean when you say you "tried to compose but failed"?

I was trying to be civil, and have "peaceful" conversations about getting back together. I kept breaking - crying and groveling.

Did she ask you to move out?

not directly. she said I could stay . but i knew my anxiety would blow the whole thing - i.e the begging and crying - i knew i had to give her space - also this was before I knew of the OM.

I thought for awhile i was getting through.
meaning, what?

we had conversations (before I knew of OM) about her needing space and time to decide what she wanted. those tidbits of hope I read from her replies to my questions.

VERY WEIRD thing to learn from a stranger?!!

Once I found out about the OM, i dug for info on FB. found out he was married and separated. I contacted the OM wife and she had told me she knew and that they had been together . intimately. and I broke down. I confronted her that morning and she denied, then finally caved. I asked when was the last time and she said last night. that meant in our home in our bed, while my children slept. - I did not take that well.

You wanted to "cry in the house"??

After I confronted her and went back to my moms crying like a baby. she went to her fathers house with the kids. I went back to what was my home, and just planned to reminisce. I missed what was my life. I sat on the floor for about 15 minutes playing with my dogs, and was just looking around the house. I noticed my pictures were missing, and there was nothing left of me in the home.

sniffing around for some PAIN...

wasnt the plan...the morning before I was wastching the kids while she worked (trying to be civil) she asked me to bring up a tv from the basement - so she could watch tv at night in be. so i did . when I went into the room i remember the tv and had the thought . she had me bring it up so she could watch TV in be with the OM. The bed was unmade, i knelt by the bed and just dropped my head to cry. Then i smelled the cologne - i was not looking for it. i got up to leave, the cologne was on my shirt. - i took of my shirt and took it and the sheets to the trash outside, and missed the can. That was the moment i decided to burn them, and hated i did it right after.

That was not your original post.

Clippings from my other Forum:

---A---
I have dealt with the anger, I no longer have that issue. Same with the control issues. Those are no more.
I was lazy, I did not help around the house.
I was not an attentive father - i did not always help with homework, i found reasons to not go outside and play with them. I did not take them anywhere (park, store, anywhere when i left the house), and certainly did not take them and give her time without them in the house (alone time).
I worked at home, so I was Always at home, and never went anywhere.
I was always in her face, i did smother her.
I was very sexual, but I did not try to romance her.

---B---
I asked before but don't recall getting an answer, but is the child part of your life at all? Have you met him/her, and or have your kids?

No the child is not a part of my life. and the OW has said she does not want me to b. I do however pay support.

Now, on the security level, you have to wonder how safe your wife felt with you.

You were "inert"? You say you were inattentive and inactive with her and the kids, so I think she did not feel safe with you, in terms of what would happen to the kids if she wasn't around AND whether you would really "Show up" for her.

I believe I was always available. I was I think overprotective of the children, to the point that I stunted their ability to have fun in an attempt to keep them safe i.e. could not be barefoot in the yard, afraid they would hurt their feet. I did not cook meals and always made easy food - sandwiches, mac & cheese, lunchables, simple things.

There are a lot of ways women can feel unprotected by their mates.

Like not standing up for her with your family would be a huge one, or being bad with money, (not that you are, just a comment.
Or, bad mouthing her to others, or involving your family in private matters,

I always defended her, I never bad mouthed her to my family.


And not being able to provide for the home and family is another big way for a woman to feel unsafe and unprotected by her mate.

I was not a good provider, i see that now more than ever. My only defense is that the mortgage at least, was always top priority, whilst the other bills suffered.

He Helps her feel safe and provided for, with the children...


I did fail at this in the grand scheme.

I think her fears about money are probably very real and deep.

I see that now.

I would like to hear more of that from you, about your wife. Know what I mean?

Anything I can answer I will.

There is hope!


---C---
I agree that all this is overwhelming, and a tad bit of "wow, i really have neglected myself in an unsettling manner".

The more you focus on you the better you'll feel. The more you focus on her the worse you'll feel.

I had a moment there when I did not actually put that perspective on it. Those words right there hit the spot.

It is hard to not have a moment where I miss her, and wish I could still hug her. But I am a bit angry and saddened by everything and Imagine myself walking away from her without turning back. Then I remember, that is not what I want - if I can take a chance at happiness with her as opposed to without her.

One issue I have been having and working on; If i had to make a list of pro's to making this marriage work, I could write a list all day. But I think my key here is to work on a list of what I would do/want for me on the possibility that I don't stand a chance or reconciliation. At this moment, that list is small. I am working on that list - Finding a goal in life that does not involve her was never a consideration before, but now it must be.

I cannot let my fear of losing this marriage control my day to day. I must have a confidence that if I believe that I am that man that she deserves, then that is who I should be; but because that is the man I want to be and should have been - with or without her. A new perspective. A new beginning.

---D---
I'd like some input on my thoughts:

At one point I told myself that the biggest mistake I could make would be enabling her to spend time with the OM. For instance. If she calls me up and asks me to spend some time with the kids so that she could "go out", I felt I should say no if it meant to spend time with him.

Than I started thinking. The errors of this in my opinion: I am rejecting her decision by trying to keep them apart - my fighting against what she "wants". She will see that as me denying time with the kids and controlling her decisions, the kids as a tool. She's going to find a way anyway, and more fuel on the fire to affirm her decision to leave.

I have considered that the best option, is to spend as much time with the kids - period. Regardless of what she is doing - because they are my children and I want to be the best father I can. And this will come with perks (for added benefit, not for purpose).

Perks: knowing my prior inattentiveness with them, while on her "date" she will spend more time wondering how they are than enjoying the date. She may talk more about the children (and/or) me when with him - which he would not like. The kids will express what a fun time they had with daddy, and she will become jealous - I say this because her "addiction" to the OM has her spending less time with the kids (as I heard from her brother).

Again I am not using the kids, I seriously miss them and want to be better with them - regardless of what she is doing/thinking. I just believe that it has an air of reverse psychology to it. She will see my wanting to spend time with the kids and my seemingly "okay" attitude toward her being with the OM as confusing. She predicts my behavior to "fix us", to "stop" her seeing the OM, and this should confuse her or allow her to believe that I am accepting this situation.

Regardless of the outcome, I am going to spend all the time I can with them. But it is a good motivator to believe it should have a positive impact for us in time. And that it might "stress" their time together.

---E---
The idea of very quickly scares me a bit. I do not want to think that I would "understand" too much to fast and miss the finer points. But I have had the precious Bomb situation opened my eyes a lot, it just did not stick well.

I know in my brain what it is I need to do, and I have a fight going on with my heart. My heart wants to love her unconditionally, and my brain affirms that the unconditional also means without her.

I have a heart of magic i think, and sometimes I feel I owe her my life for having "dealt" with me for so long. But I realize i owe her something a bit different, and that is the respect and admiration that is the woman I loved. I neglected that. I pray that some day she comes to understand that regardless of what happens. But my heart still wants her in my life, albeit a bit selfish to only want her as my wife.

I know what I must do. I need reassurance and guidance to move on the right path. And the road to forgiveness, although a difficult one, must be met both ways and treadled confidently and carefully.

I have confidence in my ability to be the man I know I am. I will be that man, for myself. And I dream that she wants that man and will choose to love me because she wants to, not because she needs to.

I think people here would rather read your own words about what has been happening in the past 3 years. Is it possible for you to copy and paste your words and leave out the words of other people? It doesn't seem ethical to post other people's words here.

Your original post did not contain other people's words.

---F---
I wrote myself a letter.

10/22/2014

Here I find what I have done wrong. Through these years I have made my share of mistakes, over and over. They are a burden on me now that I realize the truest of my bad nature.

I have never been a good father. I would not say that I am a bad father, but I did not live or even strive for a potential of good. I have dreams of playing with my children, and fantasies of seeing them smile and loving them with every breath. But I never provided any action to make this happen. I was always too busy doing something, or nothing, else to spend time with them. I was inattentive and unavailable to their needs. I was a distant father.

For the longest time I admitted to myself that I treated my wife like a queen, serviced her every whim, and did all I could to make her happy. I never took note, that all I did was show love; but in all the wrong ways. I did not live up to the ability that was my wife�s expectations. Yes they were high, but I did not even reach for them. I abandoned my own duties and justified myself in why I did nothing. It is not so much that I was lazy, but when I was needed, or was asked, I denied, after saying yes. I let her down time and time again, with an agreement that I broke. Yes I did indeed forget, but I only forgot because I did not hold what she wanted from me with any importance. To her that meant I did not care about her wants and needs. I did not do everything for her as I originally thought. I abandoned her. I was lazy.

I did not want to work; I always told myself that it was because I wanted to be home with my family, to be with them and around them. Yet all the while I was not working, I watched TV, or slept on the couch. I did not take the kids outside to play, and when I did I sat there bored with nothing to do, instead of playing with them. I neglected making money, so that I could be lazy and bored. Then I complained about being bored and broke, when I am the one that placed me in that situation. I was a bad provider.

When it came to intimacy, I always wanted sex and never understood why she did not. I complained at her sex drive, and devalued the reasons she did not want intimacy. I forced myself on her, and did not take time to enjoy the moments; I did not provide the luxury of feeling love and tenderness that is the word intimacy. I was not romantic.

I followed her like a puppy, lost in my life. I had nothing to do for myself, no hobby or play. My every moment while she was around, I was glued to her hip and would not let her breath. I made it always bout spending time with her and being around her. I lost sight of the fact that she couldn�t breathe without my breathing her air. I did not respect her space.

I did not have confidence in my ability to be a good man. I always said you are an idiot for staying with me. I thought I was saying, thank you to her for staying with me even though I was not worth it. I never believed she�d leave me, and thought she�d love me forever � because she said she would. I did not earn her respect or her admiration. I somehow made it okay to do nothing, and expect everything in return. I took her for granted. I did not love myself. I did not earn her love. I did not deserve her.

I am not feeling pity, or remorse for my behavior. Instead I am recognizing my faults and learning how to correct them. I must do this for the sake of my own well being and health. For if I cannot overcome my faults as a person; I will never be a man, to her or anyone.

---G---
she got a protective order and then violated me. I was in jail 9 days, and the revised order was for No contact direct or indirect . so there was no way to arrange for seeing them. And she never offered or tried either. And she could have gone through several people for me to see them and she hasn't.

---H---
I don't mean to sound passive, if anything I am asking advice on what I should do. A year in jail is scary and I did not want to take that chance. My L is only for the protective order, and 1 of 2 things will happen at court today: it will be dismissed or extended. If it is dismissed I will let her know that I want to see our children and arrange a time. If it is extended then first thing tomorrow I am going to file for visitation. I want to see them, and I want them to see me. I want to shower them with love and all the love I did not show before.

I want to reassure them that I have always loved them, be open with them and play with them. I want them to be happy and know that this is not their fault and they will be loved regardless of what happens, and that I will never leave them.

Also, before I went to jail and this order was in place, I am Sure I would have made the mistake of using them as a tool. I mean that by asking about mommy's day and what she does and pry information out of them.

I feel that this distance from the W and the children, might have been one of the best things that could have happened. But now enough is enough, I am stronger and I have a clear head. My heart needs work, but my knowledge and understanding of what it is I need to do has come a very long way. I will fight for them, tooth and nail if I have to. I do not believe she will try to keep them from me, but I will fight if I have to.

---I---
Had court, the order was changed to allow contact with her (peaceful contact) regarding children only for 1 year, unless she dismisses the order. The best part of this, it "forces" me to follow the rules of this forum and DB'ing. I still hold hope and will be strong.

Since I do not expect that she will contact me, i believe I should file for visitation tomorrow morning.

Oh and I am also not allowed on the property of what used to be our home for any reason during that 1 year.

---J---
I saw my kids at the park yesterday, and I did not say anything to my W nor did I even acknowledge her - I was not rude, the moment was just never there. I played with them in ways that I always wanted to for an hour and a half, and I enjoyed every moment of it.

A bit later she called and we talked for a bit, and I made several mistakes on the call, this is before reading your post 25yearsmlc. I fell into my own trap for suggesting guilt to her for what she was doing, and she clammed right up.

Today she texted me to call her to discuss Halloween. I called her a few hours later and she said she did not want to go with me, either I could take them, or she would, but she did not want to go with me. Her voice was choked, cracking up like - but I did not say anything about it. I said I would take them and I'd be there about 5 to pick them up.

She said she did not want to go with me, because we should not be together - just then she sniffled - voice still cracked.

I said ok, I will pick them up at five, bye. and hung up the phone.

---K---
however be warm and loving when you are around her or interacting....which I'd agree with. Is that what you meant

^^exactly this. Not pursue, but sweet and charming at the appropriate moments.

Good insight ^^^....so how are you going to Behave differently to reflect this awareness?

I have come to a conclusion that my mistake is Facebook. I am constantly putting "my day" up there. I am not throwing it in her face, but after thinking about - that is all I have done. I have logged out of FB, and plan to stay out. I will only talk to her if she calls me for the children, or if I want to see them.

Btw, how was forgiveness modeled in your childhood? IF you saw it, what did it look like?

I am not sure. The man I am does not make sense due to what I remember of my childhood. I come from a broken home, my father was lazy, my mother divorced 4 times. We never lived in the same home for too long. I am not sure where my conceptual model of life comes from.


I think I found my other issue. My fear. I am afraid that she will not see my changes. I am afraid that she does not care, or have any feelings for me at all. I am afraid that she truly wants to be done and rid of me in the capacity I was. As of yet I have no real 'closure. Tomorrow scares me.

I know these are things I do not need to know right now, and some day I may find those answers. But I have to find strength to accept that today is today, and if destiny exists, or we are meant to be - then she will see/find what she wants to, when she wants to.

What I want more than anything is to restore my marriage to who I know the greatest woman in the world. And I have to face my fear. I have to walk this path with blind faith, without knowledge of what it will mean to her. I am terrified.

---L---
SO I had a wonderful 3 hours taking my children trick or treating. I did not mope, prod, spy, or even allow my oldest to talk about mommy. When I say allow, i simply said we don't need to talk about that, and swiftly brought up something else. I also did not say or imply that she should tell mommy anything about the evening. I just went with them and listened and enjoyed the time spent.

But I have one concern. When I asked my daughter (oldest - 9) how she has been. She said mostly happy , but sometimes sad. then she volunteered that mommy was sad the other day. I just asked what do you mean. she said and I quote, "mommy was sad that her boyfriend might not love her". I dismissed it and changed the topic.

---M---
Where do I find the strength to hold on. The will to endure what hurts more than any pain. i sit here with knowledge and understanding that I have never known before. Yet my heart cannot fathom the wrongdoings that both I an my wife have caused each other. While I accept that my ways hardened her heart and gave her a reason to give up, I do not take blame for her actions.

I try to accept a future where we are together, and a future where we are not. The one where we are not is painful to accept, but it is understood. The one where we are is blissful, and terrifying. There will be so much to accept and get over, so much to endure and overcome.

I cannot have an absolute of whether she will find her heart with me again. I have no way to know when the affair will end, or how long it will take her to reason whether we can begin anew. I can accept this chance, but having hope at the same time I know the truth of what is happening with her and that man.

My love for her is unconditional, I made a vow of for better or worse. This is by far the worst it could be. I must be strong enough to stand by her through this time she is struggling to find whatever it is she is looking for. But to stand by while watching her destroy everything She once held dear, is not an easy burden to bear.

There are some truths I understand. I know that there is a very high chance her affair will end. I know that some day, even if years she will have regrets, and I high chance our loss will be one of them. Her irrationality will clear up in time, and she will begin to understand more clearly.

I find myself fighting with how long I can "wait" for these things to happen. I tell myself to let go and live and allow life to continue. Then I become sad again. I pick myself up and try to accept her decision, to accept that she believes she is doing what she must; and yet I posses the knowledge that she is hurting herself - and I cannot save her.

I do not know what she is thinking, I do not understand what she feels. I cannot understand her justifications or how she can rationalize what she is doing. I may never understand why she cannot see her children future as this event unfolds. But I also understand that these are things I do not need to know. My knowledge of them would change nothing, nor would that knowledge help me heal from my own pain.

It is okay to be afraid, and I will not let that fear control me. A small part of me feels like I want to fight with fire, to retaliate by any means. Then I remember that I love her, and try to accept that she is struggling with pain as well. Does she know she is in pain I wonder.

I know to let go, to live life and find a happy place. My heart misses her and wants to protect her, to save her.This internal battle at times feels like it will destroy me. I am broken, but only my heart, not my soul. I do not want to wait, I want it to stop; patience while watching what disgusts me feels wrong. But when I gather everything that is, and was, I remember that I choose to love her. I accept my choice and must live by it, for better .... or worse.

---N---
3 1/2 years ago, I gained some insight, but it was only 2 months before we got back together. Life did not hit me as hard then as I thought it did. I claimed I was better, but at the time i was still wallowing in self pity, nothing really changed.

When she took me back, things were new again-ish. and it made everything feel good. For the first year or so everything was so good we did nothing to fix the original issues that caused the break. However there was one difference. I gave up control, all of it. She was in control, I did not argue with her decision, and always let her have the last word.

Looking at that now - there was a power dynamic at play and her expectations became higher and higher. I was not able to reach them, and I believe I eventually gave up (unconsciously I believe).

I know I am wallowing, but I am doing it on here, and not to her - I am crying out of sight. I have not posted on Facebook in near a week. I have not texted her in any way, and my responses are simple. My emotions were controlling me completely until about a week ago.

I prayed for peace, and the pain in my chest left the next day. I prayed for strength, and my mind was clearer to know what I needed to do.

Frankly, I understand what you say "The wallowing and the neediness and tears of self pity about YOUR loss" - I agree that this needs to stop. But at what point does it matter that I am to lose everything that I held dear. Yes I am losing a lot, but I am gaining knowledge - there is nothing greater. I am not asking for pity, deserved or not. I understand that my own actions, or lack of, put me where I am - but as I have said - it was not a good marriage, but it was by far not bad - but again my perspective only.

She has lost a lot too - when does that become apparent to her. I know I cannot point out what she is losing. I know what she is losing.

"You want to be a man only a fool would leave. What are you DOING to become that man?"

I am a man that would walk the end of the earth for her - this she already knows. I am working my butt off at work, and am in line for a promotion and a pay raise - to a position that I will enjoy at work, so I will be happy to work and provide. I am talking to my children in a way that i have never done before because I missed out on this, I have much to make up for. Their smiles make me happier than I thought they would. When we were out on Halloween, I got to see them in a way I never had before - it may very well have been the first time I was with them without the W outside the home.

I do not live in the home. I have no friends or family that we have mutual contact with. I have no vehicle, so I do not go anywhere often, or very far. The Only changes she will see, will be through our children. I WILL NOT use them as a tool, but feel at a disadvantage that she will be blind to these changes for a long while.

I have always been this man, I was just selfish and lazy. Looking back I had no reason to be selfish or lazy, so I have abandoned both of those qualities. But again, these changes are for me and the future of my children; yet still I do them knowing she may never notice.

My crying and wallowing I do on here because I like to express what I feel. I like to talk and listen. This is what inspires me to learn more. I do not post on here words of eloquence looking for remorse. No different than an author who writes on his own life events. I like words and what they can express, but I enjoy more the replies, and the wisdom they assist me in obtaining.

Looking back I agree, most women might have left me - but this is where I have said before, my perspective is not entirely incorrect. I am and always was charming ans sweet, smart and caring - I was just inconsistent. I did love her, and showed it to her, it just was not enough to overcome the rest. She waited for me to change, I did not.

I am different today than 3 years ago - Then at the first moment she wanted me back I got a plane the next day and went home. I did not fully understand my flaws, nor did I work on the ones I did. She had not realized Any of hers, and had no time to think of anything.

The OM she was seeing emotionally then, had moved 3 hours away and was not able to be with her. The moment she realized that she called me and asked me to come home. She was still on control and I ran back without fixing even 1 issue. We were happy because we were both pretending the past was over - we were Both wrong.

---O---
Either you are misunderstanding me, or you are presuming I am just sitting here typing and hoping for a quick fix.

I am going to be blunt: Several times in this forum I have stated my problems. Our conversations are nothing more than me tearing open all the wounds and explaining why each was there - Mine And my wife's. Every time there is a reply I feel more badgered by my expressions than by the fact that I understand.

I have learned and understood my mistakes, I have owned them, and feel that I am still being punished by all the responses here. I am owning my mistakes. And I promise by myself and God that I will never make these mistakes again - regardless of my chances with my wife.

No I have not actually made a list of "to do's" for my future, but that does not mean I do not know what I want, or Need to do.

When I asked to speak to 25 off the board it was not intended for a hand holding, it was meant for a conversation that is near impossible on this forum. Actual communication. Nothing more.

I am broke I cannot afford a car at the moment. I am working overtime and even got a promotion, that I start on the 9th. In time I will get a vehicle. I have literally a dollar in the bank, and a ton of bills. Making a point, not asking for pity.

Yes I talk the talk - and I am trying my darnedest to walk it. Mistake after mistake i got it. I would love to apologize for not doing it right 3 years ago. I am tired of apologizing, I want to do it now. And I will - for me, and for my children. If she sees that wants to reconcile - all the better.

I never aid I was not going to make these changes if she does not notice, I just have a lot of curiosity. Character flaw? perhaps.

And no I will never blame DB'ing - ever. This forum has done nothing to steer me wrong, and I would not blame it for any reason. My own actions are to blame for the outcome of my life - I get that. My questions are for understanding, not justification. I am not trying to get answers to make what I need to do be easier.

Yes I do still love her, regardless that she is with the OM, just as I would love my child if he/she were an alcoholic - but that does not mean I cannot express disappointment - since I know it to be wrong, unhealthy, and damaging in the long run - especially to our children. Yes I still love her, and if she asked me to do something I would. I don't intend her "blame" to be negative, just that I want some day - regardless of outcome - for her to admit and own her own faults - but that by far will not change whether I love her.

I attempted to show her that I would walk to the end of the earth. Obviously I failed. I did not show enough, regardless of all that I did wrong, I always showed compassion. When she had a bad day I listened and did not judge. I was still sweet and charming and made my life about her. Too much in fact because I was suffocating her - again a mistake.

"When are you going to get serious and actually do something?"
I AM doing it. And if you do not think so, then say specifics.

I am working more and diligently, I am getting a promotion and a raise. I am making plans to see my children more than once per week. I have stopped trying to pursue and get my wife to notice. I have stopped wondering where and what she is doing all day. I do not call my few friends to cry and pout about my feelings. I walk to the store once per day (15 blocks) just to get air and see the sun. I have no car and live in a crappy town with nothing exciting to do. Everything fun is in 30 miles in any direction. When I have a car, I will be happy to do more. You will probably call that an excuse, but I am not walking 30 miles.

I WILL be and STAY a better man. Because I am. I have not learned everything. But I know my mistakes, I understand SO much more than I ever did. I write myself letters and re read them just to hear myself talk, and then rewrite it then put it away.

I will not make these mistakes again - with her or without.
(the response to this was that I was not being berated, rather challenged.)

---P---
"I do sense you want some form of guarantee that you WILL get her back if you do X and Y, and it simply does not work that way."

Yeah, i knew it, it's just something I did not want to accept.

See, I don't get this^^. I see your wife's actions as unfortunate BUT not incomprehensible at all. Nor do I see her actions as "unhealthy", although I must concede, I don't know the OM. But if he is kind to her, and attentive to the kids and would make a good provider, then I could argue that her choice is quite rational.

I think what I really mean by this is he is married, he cheated on his wife 2x. I know it does not matter. But I think a part of me wants to believe that they are doomed to fail. Not that it would result in us together - just Not him being her happiness. Selfish I think.

You didn't know that moms want the dads to spend time alone with the kids?

I did, but it was always in home. I never took them to the park or the store (all 3 at once). And when we were home , I didn't do alot then either. I mean I did play with them, it was just sporadic, and not nearly as much as it could have been. I was not a bad father, just not a very good one.

About her faults. I understand. I know I am not 100% blame. I might need more help with this yet.

When did you attempt that? How did you fail? Can you elaborate on how sweet you were to her?

When it came to things that were immediate I would not hesitate. I.E going to the store to get her something. Moving a piece of furniture. Fixing something that was broken. I would always hold her hand or let her grab my arm when we would walk. i never missed a kiss before one of us left the house. I always said I love you, and called her beautiful. I used to thank her, several times a week - she'd ask why, I'd say "for loving me". I kiss her forehead at least once a day. When we hugged, I'd move her hair and kiss her neck.

I don't think you made your life about her so much as you placed your needs in her lap. Can you see why I'd say that?

I agree.. the things that mattered were helping cleaning the house. the mess in the back yard and the basement. My desk was always a mess. I didnt vaccuumm, dishes, garbage. I mean i did them, but late or delayed, after nagging. I was not dilligent.

And as for the Bills - all our money was in a joint account . .i never bought anything for myself--save for cigarettes or soda. every other penny i made when to whatever needed to be paid. .Seriously . i never had any money. . didnt need it.

And the last post to paste with substance:

Everyone has to look at their individual stitch and see how things need to be applied.

I am not sure what conversation you want to have with her. Does she still have a RO against you?

The RO was lifted now it is a Court Order - My lawyer stated that a RO is like a sword - touch it you get cut. But a Court order is like a shield - It specifically says that "peaceful contact about the welfare of the children" - for 1 year...... but lawyer says if she chooses to talk to me thats ok, but what is said cannot be in any way inferred as hostile or threatening. Which it wouldnt be, no interest in being hurtful toward her.

Are you referring to just being courteous and speaking? Having a civil discussion about plans with the kids or whatever?

No, I think we have that ok - i mean once every 2 days and only about 3 texts, but it's there. My original question after thinking about it was stupid I think. She thinks she's in love with the OM - nothing I could possibly say would matter - regardless of how true or real it was.

The idea behind the "rule" is to guide the LBS in the beginning of all this, and to hopefully help with detaching. But I think the one you may be referring to is this one:

"When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad."

As you'll notice, it is targeting couples who are still living under the same roof.

Yes, we are not living under the same roof. And that is my fault. I was not emotionally strong enough - and I knew it. I decided to leave to give her space and time - at the time I did not know of the OM at all. Moving out was a huge mistake, but at the time, I thought staying would have been due to my emotional roller coaster.

What bugs me is that now we are not under the same roof, there is NO communication at all regarding the sitch. If thats expected than Ill accept it. I think that it makes this much harder. And since she is having an Exit Affair - it is evident that she is conflict avoidant - she will hide behind that court order until she is ready to talk, or the affair dies.

Sir,

The first thing you need to do is stop following the advice on the Divorce Busting forum.
They do not have a plan for recovery from an affair and restoring romantic love.

Dr. Harley DOES have a plan, detailed in his book Surviving an Affair

Your posting is difficult to read through.
Is your wife having an affair at this time?

Yes and I a sorry for the posts, I just started a copy paste brigade. Yes she is in the fog of a PA right now.

Have you exposed her affair to family and friends?
Have you exposed to your children?
Have you exposed to the OM family and friends?

You are joking, right? We are supposed to read through the posts of other people on another forum? No thanks. If you want help here, just type out your situation and let others respond. Make your post short and to the point. We don't need a lot of information to get it.

I give this very little hope because she is a serial cheater, but this is where you should begin. Expose her affair to the workplace, using the instructions in my exposure thread AND expose to the OM's wife and his family.

You need to chose NOW whether you want to protect the job or save your marriage. You cannot have both, so make your choice. Protecting her job so you can have her money comes at the expense of your marriage because recovery is impossible as long as she works there.

Take your pick: marriage or job.

And even if you choose to save the marriage, that is a huge longshot. She is a serial cheater and this is a way of life for her. It will take a radical change on her part to fix this and I seriously doubt she will ever agree to that.

His wife already knows, and more details than I would have presumed she should know, but no I have not contacted any of his family.

Have you PERSONALLY spoken to his wife?

And why have you not contacted his family?

Sir your first step should be to properly expose the affair.
Please read the link in MelodyLane signature: EXPOSURE 101 and then return after doing so.

I understand where you are coming from, this is the first physical affair. I know, it's not really a difference.

The issue I have with the exposure to work:

She lives in our home. She has the children. I have no access to 'her' money/check. I am living two blocks away with my mother. Our finances are in a black hole of debt (15K ish). The locks on the house were changed, and there is a court order that prevents me from being on the premises for 1 year.

Then you need to give up now. If you are choosing the job over the marriage, there is nothing we can do for you.

I don't know who is family is, or where to start. And of course I am terrified of doing it. Or where to begin.

Mel, I apologise for encouraging him to copy and paste. I was trying to help him find a shortcut, but I probably made things much worse.

Billman, I didn't intend for you to blast this forum with your lengthy posts from elsewhere, and I certainly did not intend for you to copy and paste other people's questions and advice into this thread. It's just that I knew that information on the condition of the marriage before the current affair, your other child, your gaming addiction and the restraining order were vital, and I did not want the forum not to know about those things because you posted only the edited highlights of the affair.

This thread is now a mess and you need to start again. Perhaps the best thing is for you to post a timeline of events. Keep it to three paragraphs and include her first affair, your other child, and the more recent events that took place during this affair.

Do not, for heaven's sake, post letters that you wrote to yourself. Navel-gazing and wallowing, under the guise of creative writing, are discouraged here.

If you won't expose at work, there is no need anyway because the situation is hopeless.

I will call the HR Monday morning. I am scared out of my mind, but I will do it.

Sir you need to read the EXPOSURE 101 link in MelodyLane signature for instructions on how to expose properly.
A phone call to the HR is not the best way to expose to the employer.
Please read the link so you understand the why and how of exposure and then return.

It is a long shot, but you need to do this right. Go read my exposure thread and plan a strategic, comprehensive exposure all on the same day. If I were you, I would expose to the OM's wife, friends, family on Sunday [using the tactics outlined in my exposure thread]. Send an exposure email to her workplace tomorrow so they will get it on Monday.

That way you hit them hard Sunday and Monday. It is a longshot, but it is the only chance I see for you.

You have to expose at work, there is no way around that. Stop placing your wife's income above protecting her from some loser, that is sending a message to her as we speak.

And STOP having AO's!

I didn't read through all the info you posted, but the AO's, begging, pleading, etc. seemed to be a reoccurring theme. You really need to get a grip on that, and get control of your emotions and actions. Are you on medication for this at all?

I am not sure what AO, stands for. But at this point I am much more healed than most of my posts suggest. I am clearer headed and on the right track as of now for the most part.

This exposure is terrifying me.

We understand. It was terrifying to us too. But you don't have the luxury anymore of catering to your fears. Getting divorced and losing your family should terrify you more. We are trying to help you save your marriage, not to assuage your fears. If you allow your fears to drive your strategy you will lose.

Fear is an emotional reaction and you can't afford to allow your fears to drive you. If you do, then you won't be able to follow a plan. If you can't follow a plan, you have no hope.

She is definitely going to get furious, i understand. And will likely try and find ways to retaliate.. I hear what you are saying. Will not be easy .

How do I determine who on his FB account is worth sending message to?

You can't determine that, so make up a priority list that starts with family members, then married people. You will need to make a copy of all of his contacts NOW and save it into a text doc for safekeeping. He will shut down his page as soon as you start.

I re-read your situation and didn't realize she is living with the OM and has a restraining order against you. Based on that, I would just skip the exposure. It might get you into legal trouble.

I am not sure what I wrote that implied that.

The OM lives with His wife and 2 children. My wife lives in Our home with our 3 children.

The do Not live together.

Also the email was sent to a manager at lowes and he is going to FWD it to the store manager and HR.

Did she get a restraining order against you? Did you spend time in jail for burning her sheets?

Yes, the restraining order ended on the 27th of October. The burning of the sheets, which she allowed me to explain to her was a bad emotional reaction to the smell of his cologne on them. It was not a "murderous rage" like her father led her to believe.

After the order, it was converted to a court order that allowed us peaceful contact, but also that I am not allowed on the premises of our home for 1 year - unless she dismisses the order.

And for clarification, semantics. They were Our sheets, before he defiled them.

Tell us about the circumstances in which you come to have an "other child" (OC).

AO = Angry Outburst.

Billman: You sound like you've been a difficult husband to live with, and someone she didn't find fun to be around. You admit to rage issues and disrespect. She didn't want sex with you because she lost her warm feelings for you...over time. That, in no way, justifies her having an affair. However, now that she left, you want to be all warm and fuzzy. Life doesn't work that way, my friend.

Not many believe this, but it was confirmed with the OW.

8 years ago, we had a babysitter. I was not the husband I wanted to be and I thought I was ruining my wife's life. I questioned staying with her. I never had nor made friends and at the tie I needed someone to talk to about whether to stay married or not. I stupidly chose the baby sitter. There was No emotional connection.

My wife liked to party and drink all the time. I hated it and Never drank, ever. I did not understand the buzz about drinking so one night I decided to drink to get drunk while my wife was away with family. During my stupor, and unable to hold my liquor, the babysitter came down from the upstairs apartment (she lived with her aunt, our friend). She was hitting on me, and I said no, you have to go. But since I do not remember anything beyond this point - this is what the OW told me:

I left the living room and went to my room and passed out. The OW came in the room and tried to wake me, she could not. At this point, she got my pants off and had her way with me while I was passed out. - reminder I never drank before and had downed a 12 pack in about 20 minutes.

When I came to (very hazy to remember), I thought I had urinated in my sleep - did not understand then, after OW story it made sense.

My wife suspected I was cheating, but I never had a plan nor did I want to. A few weeks later, OW said she was raped at a party and was pregnant. My wife and I both argued over it, nether of us knew anything more than the other. I assured her the child could not be mine, and she never heard the story from the OW, so never really believed me.

Several years later, OW calls up and claims she needed help with medical for the child and named me as the father. I was still unaware of the story. And here came the blood test. I had no contact with the OW, and ended up paying support.

After our first separation, I finally contacted the OW, and she then told me what happened, but by this point there was no legal recourse, and my wife wanted nothing to do with it.

I do not expect warm and fuzzy. I am sure I was difficult. But no i disagree. My wife showed (to the best she could) love all the way up and even after this separation. And in order to fight those feeling of what she believed to be a dead marriage - she started the affair. This is an Exit affair. An utter distraction. I know my wife, after 12.5 years together and what I know true to what she wants in life and what she holds dear, this OM is the exact opposite of what she would appreciate - the Fog is deep with her.

I have improved over the years, just never enough to stay "that good husband/father" consistently. I understand my mistakes now more than ever, And also her mistakes, which I am hoping she will find and learn from on her own. Our recovery will take a very long time, I have no doubt of that - if at all. But no I am not expecting warm and fuzzy, I am expecting to end this affair.

So quite by chance, she happened to come down from the upstairs flat on the only night in your life that you have ever been drunk?

Why did she come downstairs?

And BTW, there was indeed an emotional connection with her. The connection was established when you began talking to her about your marriage.

I think that you need to do a lot of reading about the Marriage Builders approach to marriage. It is about a lot more than stopping an affair. You won't be able to stop the affair just by exposing to his friends and their joint employers, and you will never be able to attract your wife back and build a new marriage if you hold the attitudes about her that you display here.

It is disrespectful of you to tell yourself that you know your wife's mind and what she appreciates. The openly thing you know for certain is that for the last several months she hasn't wanted to be in the marriage with you. You marriage seems to have been characterised by angry outbursts, an addiction to online gaming during which you neglected your wife horribly, no real involvement with your children and financial problems.

And as for wanting her to "find and learn from her mistakes", this is another disrespectful judgement of her. Your recovery of this marriage needs to start from the position that she doesn't need to find and learn anything about what she did wrong in the marriage. All she is concerned about now is what YOU did wrong in the marriage and how you let her down. Your behaviour towards her since your discovery of the affair has hindered matters further. If you want her back you are going to have to make her fall in love with you again, not get her to "learn from her mistakes". That court order that she has is doing the job she wants very nicely; it is keeping you away from her and out of her home. She has no need to "find and learn from her mistakes" - the mistakes she is concerned about are yours, and right now, she feels better off without you.

Have you read any Harley books? Do you have a copy of Surviving an Affair and Love Busters?

Ok yes there was an emotional connection, but I was not attracted to her nor did I intend a relationship. And she was our babysitter, and her aunt was our friend. They were welcome downstairs all the time.

I do not know why she came down. I thought she should have been in school. I never asked that.

You created a child with someone else. You were unfaithful with someone with whom you were discussing leaving your wife. The story of being drunk beyond memory but able to perform the sex act, but also being taken advantage of against your will, is incredible. You have to maintain this child until he or she is an adult, to the detriment of the children of the marriage. You had a gaming addiction for a long time. You neglected your wife and kids. She is free of you now. Why would she want you back?

Oh good grief, how old was she?

You need to go to Anger Management therapy and get your rage under control. This type of therapy is successful and in short order. If you have a chance to save your marriage, it starts with you. Of course you still need to end her affair. Your wife needs to see you become the man you promised her to be, the man she envisioned you to be, when you were dating. Let her see you are improving your attitude, your career, and being the best father you can be. She'll take notice. Let's hope it's not too late.

This was my fear of posting on another forum. Everything you have said here is in part a reply to an earlier state of where I am now.

I know it is more than stopping the affair. I have and will continue to make the changes that I have realized are the cause of our marriage to fall apart. Also I know that I am not 100% to blame for our demise. I never stated nor do I plan to point out or blame her in any way. I honestly do not have any problem with her faults - but there are some she will have to term with On her own and eventually - not today - for us to heal and grow later.

I am not focusing on her problems now, I am focusing on mine, and focusing on my children. I am doing what I can in the sidelines during this tryst, and awaiting the fog to dissipate. I dress well, I am confident and loving when I am around her, and treat her like my best fried, less the sugar coat. I am not cold or rude. I am showing her the man I am, the one she fell in love with - and she is aware that I know my mistakes.

She will choose to look at me if she wishes at some point in the future - as long as I do what I need to do.

As far as what she appreciates: From what little I know of this OM, he has cheated on his wife multiple times, as well as she has cheated on him multiple times. They claim to be separated, yet live in the same home with 2 children, and most of their family has no idea they are even separated. Based on what I know of her, it seems illogical that she would choose such an unscrupulous partner. Not the point, and not my problem - i was only surmising.

I know I let her down, and I also know that in time I can provide her with the fairy tale she always wanted. In time and over time, I hope to prove that to her with actions and without words. She will make her own decision once her mind is clear of this fog, and she has time to think.

I am working on retrieving the Harley books now, I jumped into this forum on a recommendation.

For the next day you need to focus entirely on exposure.
Did you read the EXPOSURE 101 thread?

I know it is incredible, I do not believe it myself - the OW had to tell me.

The game addiction ended. I learned from that. The neglect was not how you hear it, yes I was neglectful, but not absolute. Family outings and spending time together was very common, I was just lazy and boring, but always there and available.

If I were to speculate why she wants me back - since I do not want to put words in her mouth. Because she saw the man I was trying to be, just never was able to be consistent. I did not learn how to love her right, nor did I try because at the time I did not know I was failing. I did not truly listen to her words, i did not understand. To this day I believe she still loves me, just denies it and fights it - but I think that is the fog.

She has seen some of the improvements (actions not words). The anger is in control. Now anyway. I have calmed my anxiety to the point of near non-existence. Much more to do I know. Somewhere in here she loves me, i cannot believe she truly wants a divorce - but I do believe she thinks it as the only hope she has to be happy. By being that man I claimed to have always been - consistently - maybe then she will see me differently.

I did, and yes I am still terrified, however I emailed her work already - so that is out there.

As for the OM family. I starting that list now.

And yes I read the thread.

She does NOT love you.
Dr. Harley's program can create romantic love but it needs to be followed.
Love is action. The Bible says that there is no greater love than he that would lay down his life for another. That is a high standard.

Cheating and adultery don't meet that standard.

Did you email officers of the company? (CEO, VP)

Let me guess: You were in your early 20's and the girl was a teenager.

No i did not email corporate, I emailed the Store manager.

Yes I was 25 and she was 16 - as I said I was NOT planning anything. She was smart, and I made a poor choice. A very poor choice. Please do not lecture I have heard well enough. I know.

This should be a clear sign that you can never drink alcohol again.
Have you completely quit drinking alcohol?

You need to FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS on this website and email the letter to corporate senior officers (CEO and VP)

No I do not drink that was a first and last.

Done

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

I would not believe this story for an iota of a second.

Have you offered to take a polygraph? You cannot possibly expect your wife to believe this wild tale based on your word, or that of your OW!

Have her write a list of questions about the nature of this A (or anything else she questions) and answer them fully. Arrange to have a polygraph to confirm your answers.

I second what unwritten is saying - you need to back up your story with a polygraph examination.

I don't believe anything less than a transformation of the way you have been living would save your marriage - or make it worth it for your wife to remain married to you. No more drinking, no more lying or privacy, no more independent behavior (never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your wife), no more neglecting the children (put at least 15 hours a week on your schedule for spending quality time with your children, and your wife if possible), no more neglecting your wife (put at least 15 hours a week on your schedule for meeting your wife's intimate emotional needs), and absolutely no more angry outbursts, ever, or even being disrespectful or demanding.

That is a tall order, but it is what any man needs to do if he wants his wife to be in love with him.

As I stated the drinking was a one and done thing. I literally never drink. The lying and privacy, not sure where that was coming from but I never hid anything from her, and never lied beyond "yes I took the garbage out" - then went and did it that moment. As far as independent behavior, I barely left the house, and worked from home, so I never went anywhere save fro walmart without her. The spending time with kids is in progress. I am working on seeing them as often as I am able given the circumstances.

As far as spending time with her, I spent nights with her watching movies. She and I both neglected getting out of the house due to child watching concerns and the like. We tried to find time with each other and that was one of our biggest downfalls. And of course I cannot work on that now given the situation, but have learned it's utmost value and importance - if I ever get the opportunity again, it would be a priority.

The term "independent behavior" doesn't mean doing something by yourself - it means behaving as if your spouse doesn't exist. i.e., doing anything that they are not enthusiastic about. If you had followed this rule in the past it would be much more likely that your wife would not now be wanting to leave you.

More understood now. Of course this was not my intent, but by being lazy and selfish I see where I had done things, or not done things. There were many times she wanted to go do stuff, and I would make an excuse for some justifiable reason, and she would concede - now knowing that the concede was just admitting defeat not agreement.

Will you write Dr. Harley?

I am not sure yet what my questions should be. During the course of this affair, I have become stronger and smarter to what has cause our marriage to crumble. I have come to realizations that i never even considered an issue in the past.

I know what I must do in order or my wife to see me again as the man she fell in love with and be able to do it again in the future. My only dilemma at the moment is the waiting for the affair to end, and the chance to have real conversations with her again, conversations that are more than just about the children.

Do you have the list of OM family and friends?
Did you prepare your exposure letter?
Did you copy the letter from this website?

And with all that I am still terrified, more so of divorce as cleared up earlier.

Send it to all of the OM family and friends and then post his picture on www.cheaterville.com
You need to get moving on this so exposure is done Sunday/Monday

What do you think about the polygraph, is this something you will do?

I wouldn't have a clue how to go about it, but I would not object

I just googled 'how to find a polygraph examiner' and the first link allowed me to enter my zip code and brought up several examiners in my area. It took me about 30 seconds from reading this post.

I assume you know how to google.

I am not trying to be sassy here, but these are the differences between someone who is willing to be a bulldog to get what he wants, and someone who is too lazy to do the obvious.

Here Polygraph Testing

Did you have her charged with rape?

Do you have NC with OC and OW?

There was a DNA test, correct?

Never mind I see you were 25 and she was only 16. So she could charge you.

The only thing more incredible than this story is that anybody would think it could passed off as truth. It takes a wayward mindset to think that.

Indeed. The rapid consumption of a 12-pack is associated with "brewer's droop" rather than the unwilling conception of a child.

How is the exposure going?
You should be emailing family and friends and the OM family and friends today and finish by midnight.
This needs to be wrapped up.
Also, post the OM on Cheaterville.

No, due to the circumstance, it was nearly 5 years after the fact that the confimation came to light.


No, she is in another state, and this was 8 years ago.



Yes, about 4 years ago.



About the alcohol, remember I never drank before and the reason I decided to do this to understand my wife's obsesion with the need to be drunk to enjoy a good time.

All of this is done.
Sad how many responses were "well if you were not making her happy...."
No one has any faith in marriage anymore.

She and He both blocked me on Facebook now.

This was expected right? She is supposed to get furious now.

Bah the anxiety.

Yes, not only expected, but pretty much a guarantee.

That's why all Betrayed Spouses are advised to copy all the FB Contacts before they expose, because it's so commonplace.

LTL

Are you able to slip in some Plan A Love Bank Deposits at any opening?

LTL

She called my sister and threatened the Court order on me. My sister called and said she was angry and that she "would not hesitate to going back to court for violation".

The best part about that, is no contest. My lawyer told me that we are allowed to have contact peacefully about the children. And she may at any time allow for any other conversation as long as it remains peaceful - which it has.

I find it calming a bit that she is mad. Not sure why totally.

Please elaborate. Remember I am not in home, and we are not likely to have contact for awhile - I may even need an IM for the children.

Edit: I did some reading, and yes the last few interactions we had, there were several deposits. Every time I get a chance I plan on doing something if appropriate to continue the deposits.

I do have one qualm about this however. This exposure seems to be contingent on an affair where I am still in the home, and the spouse has some semblance of not wanting to leave the marriage.

This is an exit affair, does this tactic still work, when she believes she has her mind made up to leave? I don't think her mind is completely made up, but I am no mind reader.

Billman,

I think given the active RO for the next year and your ww's attitude to you, you should have heeded Melody's advice and skip the exposure. Exposure of the affair is critical. In your case your ww and the court have leverage over you and that makes your situation different in my opinion. Have you considered contacting Dr. Harley for advice at this point?

Tom

Whether or not your wife ever returns to your marriage, exposure is unequivocally good. It is your best shot to break up the affair no matter what. Even if she never comes back, you do not want that man around your children and you do not want him to be an influence over your wife.

I recently exposed and I believe that although my husband still talks to her, I am 100% sure their relationship was so damaged by it that they would never actually be able to have a normal relationship even if we get divorced and never talk ever again. He was incredibly unnerved by people knowing and confronting him. I might be wrong, but its th best shot at breaking up an affair.

Money is likely a factor, and would not be easy. Please direct me.

You can Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

There is no cost involved to be part of the show if you decide to be a caller, if not your questions will still be answered.

I will send an email.

The cheaterville post was approved, ID 35193

You make DARN SURE that you carry a VAR, a Voice Activated Recorder on you AT ALL TIMES that you meet OR discuss Anythhng with your WW.

Protect Youself with the truth.

LTL

Get rid of the various "Suppised" Affair definitions. They just muddy the thinking.

All affairs can be exit affairs, or just a piece on the side.

Break Up The Affair.

Get your FREE Advice from Dr. Harley via the MB Radio call in show. Send your e-mail to Joyce and provide your phone number and she will 1st call you to discuss the situation.

P.S. You also will get one of Dr. Harley's books for free when you are oo the radio show.

LTL

This is where I asked if would write Dr. Harley 2 days ago.

She called me, ill be on Wednesday 19th

Have you exposed to OM's family and friends from Facebook contacts?

Finish the exposure and start Plan A.

Exposure done. Plan A will not be easy with limited contact.

Who did you contact on OM's side and what did you say to them?

Anyone one his list with the last name of of his, anyone co-worker, and anyone in a relationship - almost 50 people.

"Dear friend/family of **edit**

It grieves me to write this letter, but I believe all of his friends should be aware that *** is having an affair with my wife, **** We have been married for 10 years. They have been having this affair since July 2014.

I would ask that you use your influence with **** to persuade him to leave my wife alone. It is unfortunate that he is no friend to marriage. I want to save my marriage and keep my family together.

Thank you"

Billman,

In your email to Dr. Harley, did you tell him about your other child and how the girl got pregnant?
If not, you will need to email him again and tell him. Ask if he recommends that you take a polygraph as part of Plan A and what specific questions you should answer.

It is extremely important that you follow his program to a t and do not deviate from his plan at all.

Just found out from her brother that she had recently broken up with the OM, then took him back. I do not have any other details about this, but it sounds like good news as far as their breaking up. My emotions are under control and I will do nothing . But MAN do I wish there was. The sooner they end, the better my chances.

Very few affairs last longer than 6 months.
So the odds are, their affair will die.
Did you email Dr. Harley the question about the polygraph?

I pray the affair ends before Christmas. not that we would get back together that quickly. But at least then I may be able to open presents under the same tree together....maybe.


I did yes. No reply yet.

Could the exposure have been what pushed them back together?

We talked for a short while today. My wife says she does not understand why I was so think headed, and unable to "hear" her when she told me what she wanted. What would be a good read that I might suggest to her to assist her understanding that I as a man am more normal than she'd like to believe?

Sir,

Stop listening to her wayward garbage.
Have you ever had a conversation with a drunk? I learned as a teenager that it's a futile effort!

This is what I suggest: Just tell her this sentence: " I am willing to work with you to create a loving healthy marriage but you must first end your affair"

According to Dr. Harley, exposure speeds up the death of an affair.

I don't think we are ready for that part yet. I would love the idea of putting my foot down here, but I am not sure if she is ready to "commit" thus far.

Of couse she is not ready for that yet.

But it plants some seeds.

LTL

Seeds are nice. And I agree. Should I make this a simple standard sentence, face to face. or should I write a small letter?

I spoke t my sister to and she asked me, why I have not just put my foot down and tell her like it is.

I don't really know why.

Here is one of the tidbits of gems contained that you can use.

Read through the Carrot And The Stick thread that is in the 1st Sticky Post in this SAA Sub-Forum for the rest of the great self help info.

LTL

.

.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.


Plan A is often misunderstood as "acting nice"

excuse me acting "nice' in the face of an affair makes me want to puke

Plan A is taking control of one's self ...it is NOT "acting nice" ~as if~ there was no infidelity eating away at your family .... infidelity hurts like battery acid poured on your skin

am I right?

heII yes I am right

so you scared and panicky betrayed ~~~> SPEAK UP

tell the truth

"This affair hurts me. This affair is going to destroy our family. Let's get help."

If your spouse does something really thoughtless ... SPEAK UP.

"What you just said (did) hurts me terribly."

"I feel wounded by your affair."

"My heart aches for the love we used to share."

But be careful ... don't get needy or whiney or weepy ... those are love-busters

it's a fine line between telling the truth about what hurts ... and staying away from LB behaviors

ASK for help from the board

if you are unsure if what you are doing is correct... examine how much self control you have at any given moment ... and if you are feeling in control of yourself ... you are probably right on the money !

if you feel yourself losing control ... step away and re-groupRead through the Carrot and The Stick Thread in the Start Here 1st post sticky at the top of this sub-forum.

I talked to her tonight and told her the truth of how I feel, and that this is not fair. She said that I am not respecting her space, and I mentioned that she did not respect me by doing what she has done. She is still living in the past on my lack of perfection. She also said that her "plan" was to spend the rest of her life with him. I know this is just a phase thing, but it hurt to hear. I left it alone and the conversation ended.

Her claim is that she cannot get over the past and still believes she is in love with him.

After the call I texted her "You are not being fair, and I am not done fighting for you. I meant my vows and I will not give up on you. Because you are worth fighting for."

This statement would have been a lot stronger and would have gone a lot further if you hadn't started it with "You are not being fair." That's debatable, and it's likely she didn't hear the rest of what you said because of that.

Don't debate her on fairness anymore.

Billman, are you listening daily to Dr. Harley's radio show? I had to make a complete life transformation, moving from living a bad marriage lifestyle that I learned in a bad marriage culture to learning and living a good marriage lifestyle from a good marriage culture.

Dr. Harley and his wife Joyce have had a good marriage for 50 years. I learned a lot from listening to them every day. You are going to need it. Sit in class every day!

Get the Marriage Builders app on your phone or tablet so you can listen to the show from anywhere. It runs 24 hours a day.

Bman12 - was that you on the radio today? Talking about having angry outbursts at inanimate objects?

Wow, that was me several years ago. I used to go through the self checkout line at the grocery store and have angry outbursts at the kiosk. I would make a loud commotion yelling at the machine if it did anything I didn't like. Then I'd turn to the cashier and cheerily talk about how great it was to get your frustrations out at an inanimate object instead of a person with feelings that might be hurt.

Of course, the truth was I was just rehearsing the habit of anger over and over, making myself more and more irrational and more and more prone to jump to such temporary insanity any time anything frustrated me.

I looked like an imbecile, too. Yelling at a computer - good grief. I'll never forget the first time I heard Dr. Harley describe his years-ago angry outburst at the carburetor of his car and thought - "Hey, that's me!"

I was probably scaring the living daylights out of the poor cashiers, too.

Yes that was me. Can you help me find my "segment" to download?

I thought the same thing. Getting mad at an object rather than a person I thought was a healthy release. Looking back, I likely just scared my wife into thinking I could kill someone, or maybe even her.

I will post it to your thread as soon as it shows up in the archives, but for now it will repeat until tomorrow's show. Have you listened to it yet today?

Also, what did you think about the advice you received?

No I have not been able to listen to my portion. I did listen to some others. Yes the advice was perspective I have not yet seen or thought of. Too bad it was not a longer session. But yes it was very helpful, and I cannot wait to get the books.

Remember you can always follow up with them if you need more help and/or call back in.

I doubt it.
Years ago, I worked the graveyard shift at Denny's.
The most strange, crazy people would come in along with the drunks yelling and complaining.
The workers quickly get used to it.

Yep, so it made them class me as "drunk or crazy" instead of "decent person I enjoy seeing come in here as a customer."

I heard your call on the Radio Show.
Did you tell Dr. Harley about the circumstances of how you had your OC?
Did you ask him if he recommended a polygraph to show your wife?

Sir, you must realize that your story sounds crazy. That you were raped by a teenage girl while drunk. Your wife will probably never believe your version and that will not help your case.
Did you tell Dr. Harley about this?

No I did not mention it on the show. I emailed and stated it after and have not yet heard a reply. I know how it sounds - but what could I possible say. Believe me, it would be easier to just say I had an affair.

The reason I did not offer it on the show is due to the nature of how it sounds. I wanted to explain it Off the show and get a side opinion before asking it on the show. Maybe I will get on another show.

I don't think I heard any mention of your addiction to online games, either. I was quite surprised to hear you say that you were "not good" and also "not bad" as a husband and father. You did not talk about the fact that you never paid any attention to the children or took them out or played with them. I think you were much more honest on this board about your failings and you did not like the reaction and advice you were given, and I got the impression that you left out the details of the OC and addiction for that reason. You don't think you were that bad or that your wife has any real justification for not wanting to get back with you, and you were not going to tell Dr H anything to make him criticise you as your wife does.

Even if your wife believes your story of being raped and does not think you had an affair, the presence of an OC whom you have to maintain for years to come is bound to have been affecting your marriage. If you don't give Dr Harley full information, how is his advice going to be accurately targeted? How useful can the phone advice be when really serious bits of pertinent information were left out?

However, even with the main omissions mentioned here, Dr Harley made it clear that you were not a good husband, that you must get to an effective anger management class and that you have to work on your behaviour if you want to stand a chance of winning your wife back. Her certainly did not endorse your idea that when your wife complains about you, she should be told that you are normal and not that bad a husband:

The gaming addiction ended with our last split, I don't play anymore.

When I said not good and not bad, what I meant was not awful, I was not a horrible father. I did spend time with them, it was just at my convenience, not theirs. That was the mistake.

The reaction to the advice is nothing, I have heard it time and time again from everyone I have been honest about, including the board. Honestly the reason I did not bring up the OC was nervousness of being on the show. I forgot to include it in the first email. I said such in a second one asking to come back on the show.

I am not worried about being put in my place, I need that to heal and learn.

But also, I do understand how the OC can affect my wife. But on a serious flip side, if my wife were raped and had a child - whether she put herself in that situation or not - I would never hold that against her. I'd have to find a way to deal, but I surely would not blame her. But I understand your reaction, because just like most, you don't believe it so your animosity is understandable.

Also your last sentence, " she should be told that you are normal and not that bad a husband" - how in the world can I tell her this in a way I haven't already. (Edit, nvm, I just understood what you wrote, and what was said.)

The problems we are facing right now: She cannot or does not want to or has no reason to forgive my past. She is unwilling to take another chance. And the biggest part: she believes that she and the OM are in love. And we have NO link between us other than our children - whom I will not use as tools. We have no family or mutual friends that talk to us both. I am at a huge disadvantage.

Surely you get my point: that the gaming addiction was one of the ways that you were a HORRIBLE husband. If you were going to tell Dr H about what you did wrong as a husband, an addiction that absorbed all your attention and energy should have been disclosed. And it didn't make you "not good" and "not bad" as a husband and father - it made you horrible. If you can't see that, no wonder your wife wants nothing to do with you.

I don't have animosity to you. I don't know you. What I am expressing is incredulity about the rape story.

Here's the show.
Radio Clip of Billman12's Show

The other morning she called me up asking for a jump, the batter died in our vehicle. I did not show excitement, but I stopped working and borrowed my mother's car and went the two blocks to jump the car. She was thankful and "nice" to me. We have not spoken since (2 days).

People are saying she has me wrapped around her finger. Plan A says meeting her needs, and show the better person. Is being there for her enabling her to use me, or doing the right thing?

I do not know where to draw a line, or whether to even draw one. Is she using me, or did she appreciate my being able to help her. Do I say no next time, or say yes but at my availability. Hard to get, or always ready. Show her love or show her pain (without whinny pity crybaby).

The key is to bring your Taker in on everything, not just your Giver. Select ways to meet her emotional needs that are not sacrifices for you, so they will be sustainable in the long term. When trying to win your wife back you will probably go on the side of sacrificing just a little for awhile, but over time you want to get really, really good at building a lifestyle that you enjoy that makes massive love bank deposits in your account.


Don't play games with her. If you're not enthusiastic about something she wants you to do, just decline. (And look for something else you can do for her that you are enthusiastic about.)

Her mother is in the hospital with cancer, there is a good chance she will die soon. She agreed for me to go with her, and we are taking the children. It is an 11 hour drive each way.

This situation is not about us, it is about her mother. She has spoken to me more the past few days, and came to me to talk and cry to instead of her lover.

From what I am understanding of the Love Bank. Is she using me to keep the "negative" emotions out of their relationship.

I believe that Plan A here is to be there for her, to help her any way I can during this time for her. I expressed warmly and with no return expectation, that I want to be there for her. But cannot help but wonder if this should have been a Plan B scenario.

Plan A or Plan B, I think this is a situation that calls for compassion. This is something that she will remember either way. Be there for her.

I don't understand your question. If what should have been a Plan B scenario? What is a "Plan B scenario"?

Thank you for this.

@SugarCane, what I meant was no contact. A very small (very small) part of me did not want to be there for her. From what I understand she did not go to the OM for this situation. To me that says there is a special place for me in her heart. That small part made me want to have her deal with this without me.

My heart told me to be there for her. This will not be an easy time for her if her mother indeed passes. I do not think that he can meet that emotional need the way I can for this situation. My decision is to make this "trip" about her mother and be there for her and the kids. If there are small moments where I can make a deposit in the love bank I will, but in that standby this situation is not about me or us way.

I have read in a few areas that sometimes the fog can lift or at least become clear during painful and life-altering events. This tells me that being there for her is the best I possibly can do at this moment.

I also got the books that Harley sent. I read the first few chapters of surviving an affair, and I understand a bit more. What I learned is that she is in love with him most likely. And in this situation, I must wait until it dies it's own death (the affair).

I am 3 months in, and Plan A has only really been in effect for about 2 weeks - since I had made so many mistakes before hand - and so many withdrawals.

Not if you want to keep your marriage.

Plan B is to protect you if the trauma gets to be too much for you.

It is not for teaching your wife a lesson, and it won't work for any such purpose.

If you want to keep your marriage and are having difficulty, I encourage you to see a doctor about getting antidepressants prescribed, as an option before Plan B, because when a man goes to Plan B it is likely to end the marriage.

No plan B - got it.

Now just to ask one more question. Does plan A enable her? is it cake eating in some form?

Don't do anything in Plan A that would enable her affair. Don't pay for affair expenses, for example, or agree to her going away from home overnight.

Have you seen your doctor about antidepressants?

I have not attempted any antidepressants. just the anger management, parenting classes, and church. I have an appointment with a doctor in about 2 weeks.

I am so nervous about this trip. I know how to behave and what I must do. But it's going to be hard spending that "time" with my family - while my wife is in love with another man.

A benefit, is that she will have better sight of who I am and have become. But that does not take away the nervousness.

How does one distinguish the difference between hope and what I want to believe.

If you have a proven plan to follow, and you are following it, then you have reason to hope.

If you do not have a plan, or your plan is not proven, or you are not following it, then I would encourage you not to hope.

Hope it is. I do have a plan. I am following th guide of Plan A. What I sense from her is that she is confused. I don't act on it, but I feel it. The lingering she does on the phone. The 2 times to call me about things she could have just texted. It was nice, but then as usual that was it.

"I don't act on it, but I feel it. The lingering she does on the phone. The 2 times to call me about things she could have just texted. It was nice, but then as usual that was it."

Did she ever tell you that she's confused or that she has mixed feelings?

No, it's just the impression I get with the sound of her voice and the fact that when we had our split 3.5 years ago - what she is doing now is very similar. She would call about nothing, tell me things that she didn't have to - small talk. She hasn't done that in 3 months.

3 hours to the trip. I am so nervous. Trying to find confidence to be okay. I know this trip is not about me or us, it is about her and her mother. I am there for her. I sincerely hope this makes some impact or difference.

I was there for her in every sense of the word. Yes I made mistakes, but I corrected them and moved on. She understood and on her own she opened up to me. I allowed her to talk and conversed with her as she was comfortable.

I did not indulge moments where I could have displayed pity, or about me. I allowed her to talk and express herself. We talked greatly about her mother and her mother forgave me for my past, and at first was not going to allow me to stay in her apartment while she was in the hospital. She changed her mind on that and my wife cried a little when her mother told her that she forgave me.

My wife opened up to me in a way I did not expect. I did not initiate any of the conversations, and she was clearly expressing to me that she does have a special place for me. I was all about her and the kids while I was there. I took care of our children and enjoyed every moment with them. I did not yell or get mad, but was firm when needed and talked to them nicely even when she wanted to yell at them. I simply said, "it's ok, I'll take care of this."

I did what I knew I needed to do for them and me, she told me herself at one point - without me asking that she has seen the changes over the past weeks. She told me she believed they were genuine and not an act. She said "You are SO good with them now".

on the way back she asked me out of the blue, what makes me so special to you. This was my reply: When we first met, it took me near a month to find the courage to talk to you. You were so ar out of my league. We talked and had moments, but I was frightened to ask you out. But the way you looked at me, and that sweet voice when you talked to me. The way you smiled when I said hello. That day I ound the courage, I knew you were the one. I was never afraid to ask someone on a date, or to bring them home with me. Something about you was special. While we were together, during those times I made you smile and laugh and when I was sweet to you; there was a glimmer in your eye that made you beautiful to me.

Then she said why am I beautiful. I said, your beauty goes beyond what I see of you. Yes you are beautiful on the outside that would never be a question. But on the inside, on those days I saw that glimmer especially you are a kind hearted wonderful mother. You put the kids above all else, I have always seen that. When I made you happy, you treated me like a king, and the smile on your face showed me a beauty that nothing could ever compare to. You could gain 300 pounds and let yourself go, and the person you are would still make you the most beautiful, and only woman in the world that I would see.

Then she asked how am I a good person if I am doing this to you. I was afraid to answer this one knowing what I understand and what I can and cannot say with her fog, but this was my response. You felt like we were through, you made a decision. I don't believe that you properly dealt with the feelings of loss with me. You distracted yourself with (him) and set me and the feelings you had for me aside. He courted you, and did a fine job of it. Your decision does not make you a bad person, it makes you human. Your decisions in the future will determine the person you wish to be in your life.


I am sure that most of what I said was over elaborated. But from what I understand and the way she responded and talked to me, I have to believe that she was searching for answers. I don't have the all and I know it, but I gave what I could. My mom told me that there is no way in hell, that the OM could tell her how beautiful she was in the way that I did.

She finally sees me, and I promise I am true, and this is no act (not said to her - was all action). At the end of the night, she still see's him as the object of her happiness, I did not argue with her. I simply said that is your choice, and I cannot argue your choice. All I can hope is that I am a reason to make a better choice. I said goodnight to her she hugged me and I left.

3 days, and I made more love bank deposits then I have in years.

Somebody mentioned on another thread, the change won't happen overnight. The fog usually lifts slowly. I think it's a good sign she's asking those questions, though.

It is and I know the fog will not clear suddenly. My demeanor and actions overtime she will come to enjoy my company, and see me in a light she only had glimpses of in the past. She will see how happy our children are to be around me. Then when I am not around or unavailable. Those are the moments she will think of me. This on top of the fading of their infatuation - is a hard things to witness and wait for.

It sounds like you did a great job. Thank you for posting your conversation with her. I have been hit with a few similar questions and haven't answered them half as good as you did.

Well done sir.

Yes, well done. Patience is hard when waiting for the fog to lift, sounds like you're doing great.

@face1 and @pm18 - your responses actually made me tear a little.

I think at this time - should I give her a day or so before contact - even for the kids. She always cmplained that I was 'up her butt", and did not give her space. And even this trip she said she just needs to "be happy for now" (stupid fog). So I think i just need to give her a few days to contact me, and not vice versa.

Another question, do their love bank deposits begin to go down with my increase of deposits also , or is this just between them that they go down? Better wording for the sake of words: can I "win her over" him by making these steady deposits?

Their love bank accounts are theirs. You can put pressure on them and their relationship by exposure, and continued exposure of your pain in her actions. The rest is, unfortunately, time and up to them. As long as she sees you as caring and having changed, if your patient enough, there is a very good chance, the affair will die, the fog will lift, and she will come back to you.

Keep making those positive changes in yourself, take any opportunity through action to prove those changes, and never do any love busters.. That's your plan and you should have hope.

Love busters is being read at this very moment, some pages over and over to drill it deep. That sentence, As long as she sees you as caring and having changed, if your patient enough, there is a very good chance, the affair will die, the fog will lift, and she will come back to you." Happy tears, first in awhile.

On another note, during the trip her mother said I could not stay in her apartment and I could only "see" her for 5 min. When I saw her, I broke and told her I loved her and I am sorry I did not get to know her better. I also apologized for our situation and saddened by the fact that I did not make her proud. She then looked at me with a single tear and said "I forgive you". I bawled of course.

Once I left the room my wife showed Very little remorse for my pain at that moment - as expected. we talked a bit and I told her what her mother said to me. She went back in with her mom and after a bit she came out and said I could stay in the apartment. My wife was about to tell her mom that she would not stay in the apartment either if I couldn't. She was going to defend me, but as my wife explained her mother said I could stay there before my wife said anything.

On the ride home, my wife said something that made me have to pull over and cry a bit. she put her hand on my back and asked that I was ok and showed a genuine care for my feelings. That is how I knew my "deposits" were happening. I think for a bit she remembered why she waited for me to "grow up" for a short time during that ride home.

Aside from not being able to directly say I love you and hold her hand, it was probably one of the best situations we have been in together without any conflict. And thank God since her mother was doing better and recovering nicely, the emotions were not in a depressive state.

Question. How do I decide when to plan B?

And also during plan A, do I ever send "sweet" texts or anything. It read in a way that said show her the man I am and be a loving husband. How much and how often?

Just as a drunk is not sober until the alcohol is out of his system, so a wayward's fog will not lift until the affair has died.

You shouldn't need to worry about Plan B at this point, unless you are under too much stress.
Yes, in Plan A you could send texts or other notes. The goal is to make Love Bank deposits. Most waywards are hostile towards such actions though.

She is not hostile, but I will say that during the 3 days, when I would make her feel something, she would say things like "I hate you", or you are a jerk. But I understood that it was a why now sort of comment. She even said when she has her moments she gets mad at me, not a hostile mad, but a hurt mad.

I can hold off on plan B for awhile I think. It does hurt more than words can describe, but I can hold all that while with her.

SO would you say that a text like "Good morning or Good night Beautiul" is ok? get rid of the beautiful, should I call her wife? I can say "I hope you had a good day today" I have always called her Honey, Never by her first name - not in 12.5 years. I presumed to use her first name by Plan B.

I know I cannot say "I love you", and anything too deep, can you list some phrases or similar that I can say.

Sir, here are is a Plan A thread to read. It will give you suggestions and guidance on how to Plan A

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...flat&Number=2400725&#Post2400725

I printed some good things to know from that thread. I am finding very little about what I can do best with Plan A while not living in the home.

Texts/calls (though she might find this intrusive), emails, gifts sent to her residence or delivered by a mutual friend, handwritten letters.

It's really hard to know what to say/do at first, but it does get better as you go. Once you get past feeling angry or hopeless.

Everything should be completely non-threatening emotionally. No questions/demands. No relationship talk. No love busters or comments on the affair.

All of the stuff you posted as having said to her when you saw her recently is the right kind of stuff. You've got the right idea.

@axslinger85 Thank you. that's what I needed, "non-threatening emotionally. No questions/demands. No relationship talk. No love busters or comments on the affair." It is almost as if I m continuing as if everything is normal - to a point. *edit - ok not normal, what I should have been sans the stuff above.

Thank you for your advice.

Not sure about "normal", because it's not. Be genuine about your situation, but hopeful and affectionate. And don't get hung up on feeling rejected and distant, she's still your wife. That last one took me a while to get past.

Just don't put anything in there that would make your communications to her anything but a safe place for her curiosity. She needs to be able to feel completely safe receiving whatever you send to her.

So this morning she asked me where to pay the vehicle property tax for Virginia. Without over thinking it - this is a HUGE development. She has not asked me a question that she is more than capable of doing on her own pretty much since this started. - the address is on the paper that she must have had in front of her with the amount and due date.

I call her honey all the time, and during the trip she didnt mind, but when I texted it "You are welcome honey - she asked me to stop being wierd and calling her honey and stuff. - I imagine I am laying too thick. So I replied: "You are my wife and have been my honey for 12.5 years, but to respect your wish and that I hear you I will refrain from texting those things."

This allows me to still say so in person without "lying" or losing consistency.

One tiny step in the trail.

Plan A says not to enable them to be together. If she makes plans to go out for example, do not agree to watch the kids. But what if I make plans with the kids that enables a meeting possible. I want to take the children to church tomorrow, and she has been asking me for the past few days what time - in what feels like an impatient way. I could be over thinking, but it sounds like she was making a plan. Should I be careful to not enable these moments?

What is your custody arrangements?

There is nothing in place via court. She has the kids.

Personally, I would do everything possible to spend time with the kids.
The argument could be made that you enable the affair by providing free babysitting but the flip side is that refusing to watch the kids will only further separate them from you.

I can't give you definitive guidance on this. Hopefully other more experienced posters can tell who what Dr. Harley would recommend in this case.

When you say distant, are you referring to the lack of acceptance, appreciation, and reciprocation? Can you elaborate on the way to accept and deal with this.

Waywards like to try and pretend that the marriage never happened. A WW will tell the betrayed husband NOT to refer to them with loving terms or show them affection, because they've unilaterally decided the relationship is null and void. Not just in crisis, or even over, but null. Never happened. They never loved you, in their own mind. You were a mistake.

In their own mind, they believe this and they want the BH to agree so they can stay comfortably planted in the fog and not have to examine their own actions (which are shameful and guilt-inducing).

For me, this was very intimidating. I care about my wife's feelings very much and she was so emphatic about this that in my stunned state, I went along with it. She refused to undress around me, was uncomfortable if I told her I loved her, etc.

The feeling rejected or distant is how you feel if you go along with this framework the WW sets out. You may feel uncomfortable or fatalistic saying the kinds of things that are required for Plan A, because your wife has convinced you that you have no right or reason to love her since she's moved on forever.

BUT....this is nonsense and a form of gaslighting. She is still your wife, you've still spent X amount of years together, and she wouldn't have married you if she NEVER loved you.

She may have decided to ignore your history together, but she cannot change it. It persists. And what's more, when you can bring up a positive memory of you two together, it's like a trigger for her that makes her uncomfortable in her fantasy. She HAS to believe that you were a mistake and that her love for you was never as profound as the love that she felt for OM, or else there's no emotional justification for the great (and immoral) injury that she has dealt you.

So OWN that. Don't let her keep that from you. She can insist all day that "it's over" and that you're a minor footnote in her biography, but that is preposterous. She is conflicted herself and wants you to give up because it makes her decision easier to arrive at.

Call her love, call her your bride, call her the love of your life. Honey, sweetie, baby, etc I'd stay away from because they're intimate terms, but all of the old-fashioned stuff is what you need. The kind of terms you had in your discussions with her a few pages back were spot on.

The "way" to deal with this emotionally is tough. Every time WW shuts you down on something it's going to feel like a dagger. However, you are in a prime position to cause all sorts of havoc in the affair by refusing to behave in the way which the affair partners expect you to. They expect you to give up and move on, and persisting with spoiling your wife WILL cause them problems and make you increasingly attractive to your wife as their relationship stumbles.

Imagine being a boyfriend who's dating a very attractive woman with a long-term ex that she was extremely attached to and won't leave her alone. OM is like the boyfriend and you're like the ex in this scenario, and unlike this situation in real life, OM is not going to come run you off because he is a coward. Instead, he's going to get angry at your WW for having anything to do with you, and she's going to get angry with him for trying to control her.

So deal with the rejection by thinking of Plan A in strategic (rather than emotional) terms. Your wife is out of her mind right now so pay no attention to what she says other than to qualify which efforts of yours are or aren't effective, and take satisfaction in knowing you are almost certainly a thorn in OMs side because you won't roll over. Reciprocation/appreciation won't happen until OM is out of the picture, so free yourself of those expectations for the time being.

I understood that 100%. Thank you. I am reading this over and over again, and it is Plan A so well. I could cry reading it I understand it so well now. axslinger85 - I don't even know how to explain what you wrote is Just what I needed to hear.

However, I do still call her honey - I have for 12.5 years. I refuse to call her by her first name unless I begin Plan B.She calls the OM "My Love" and he calls her "Baby". I enjoy very much calling her my "Beautiful Wife". In fact almost nightly, I say "Goodnight, my beautiful wife".

Do you have any rebuttals to my continuing Honey?

If it makes the rest of what you're trying to do distasteful to her, then don't use it. You'll have to be the judge of that. If she really hates it she'll object immediately.

She has not objected to Honey in any way - except once in a text. and that was not immediately - and there was no reference when I said it today. (and no facial change that I could see either)

***EDIT***

This is an old thread written by a former wayward wife. It's in the stickies for betrayed spouses but the link didn't work so I searched and found it.

For all of us BHs on now, I'd highly recommend reading her thoughts. You'll certainly see the dots connect with your own situations.

LaLa does not seem to be on anymore. I do have a question that has been bugging me. I am pretty sure I know the answer, but for the sake of confirmation or clarity: How can one be sure that the 'relationship' my wife is in is an actual affair as opposed to a relationship for 'real'? I ONLY ask this because even tho we are legally married, the D was mentioned before she did anything physical with him at all (to the 98%ness of my knowledge).

I think my brain is answering this for me already. She admitted once that the emotions started connecting before the D, so since it started while we were together, it stands to reason this is an affair either way. Plus - I know she was not over me and did not deal with the emotions of our separation before becoming intimate with him.

I will say that my wife has said over half of what is on that list, and I don't believe any of it when I hear it. In fact it was just the other day she said OM had nothing to do with us not getting back together. Total horse poop.

In fact half the time we talk and she sees me for who I am today, who I am still becoming - I can almost hear 'Save Me' in her words. Oh if only I could.

Thanks Axe, I'll take a look at that thread tomorrow. I'll say some prayers tonight for all us BHs and our WWs and then try to get some sleep for work tomorrow.

I know this well. She says she has no connection, no love, even has hate for me right now.

I am sleepin in our room, in our marriage bed, and she in the ex-office-hopefully future office She'll knock on the door, I'll tell her it's not necessary. She says it's your room and bed. I say it's our room and our bed, you're just choosing not to stay in it. That and other things make it seem she does want to think of the marriage as null. She wants divorce, she doesn't feel any attachment to the house, that it's not hers. She's only there because she can't afford an apartment. She's overwhelmingly upset over exposure. No idea how wlong that will take to subside or heal.

I can definitely see the wisdom in not refusing to move out when she asked. She said to me, you didn't even ask any friend if you could stay with them, the night she told me not to come home. I had, more out of curiosity, and im sure I could have found a place to stay. I told her I did, there was no one who had a place, and that I wouldn't have accepted it anyway. This is our house until it isn't. Fortunately she is honest enough to not make up some trumped up RO to get me out, and refused to even lie to defend herself if I had called the cops for her hitting me and other things last Tuesday night.

Still living in the same house gives me hope and chances to make deposits. It's also tougher seeing her everyday and seeing someone else. Not my wife but the twisted fogged out WW. I miss my wife. Her smiles and laughter, her stories, her kisses, her touch. Patience is required, though, and when she comes back, they'll be all the sweeter.

I hear you pm18, I wish I had the luxury of being in the home right now. The patience is the worst pain ironically, and the best option.

My WW has also stated she doesn't want our home. And suggested I live there after she moves out. No way I'd want it without her, and I have said as much.

**EDIT**

In your case, the best thing you can do (and the most difficult for you to do) is to make sure she knows she can come back anytime she wants. Have you begged her for a chance to show her you can be the person she needs you to be? And are you willing to be the person she needs you to be? If so, do you know what she needs from you?

If she will talk to you, the best thing you can do is to find out what she wanted from you in the first place. Find out how this other guy is meeting her needs. After that, try to meet those needs for her. And don't give up! When you do something to meet her needs, let her know that you did it because you want to be the person she needs. Let her know that you want to change.

I wont lie. You're in a tough spot man. **EDIT** Try to be someone she wants to be around. Most of all, control your temper. Show her love instead of anger.

My wife is starting to wake up.

She called me this morning crying becauee our oldest did not want to wear the pants mommy wanted her to. She saw how I have handled the children, and wanted to know why at first she was so good with them and now she cannot control them.

I went to the house and we talked, I let her read some things about parents in the fog. She broke down. Then started talking to me about OM. And how she belives that he still loves his wife. She is prepping for no contact.

I am not counting ducks, but she is waking up. But I have a few requests:

1. I need help knowing how to assist her with no contact upon her request.

2. She asked "why now, why did I have to have sex with someone and do this for you to finally hear me after all these years?" I need help answering this question with more than I had an awakening.

3. How do I best handle her 'grieving' period, as far as time, space, and love?

Thank you. All of you.

Please remind me. Are you out of the house or still living together?

Have you read what Dr Harley says on withdrawal?

Have you read SAA?

**EDIT**

@goofedit Thank you. The good news is I am one step ahead of your post. I have found my flaws from my perspective and I am learning them slowly from hers. I have not yet directly asked her what needs he meets that I do not, but am working on that.

I have instilled nothing but love and devotion to reconciliation. As of today, I think my spot is a much less tough then yesterday. She sees me and our children see me for who I am today.

She has much to go through at this point, and my prev post is for me to handle that properly. Thank you for your advice.

I am not counting ducks, but she is waking up. But I have a few requests:

1. I need help knowing how to assist her with no contact upon her request.
-Buy the book "Surviving an affair" (edit, I see you already have it . It has a template of a letter to the other guy which says that your wife no longer wishes to see him/talk to him and asks him not to attempt to talk to her.

2. She asked "why now, why did I have to have sex with someone and do this for you to finally hear me after all these years?" I need help answering this question with more than I had an awakening.
-Now is the time for you to own this. Tell her that you were complacent in your marriage and that you missed a lot of her cues because of it. Make sure she knows that you NEVER want that to happen again and that you WANT to change to be the person meets her needs.

3. How do I best handle her 'grieving' period, as far as time, space, and love?
-First if there is stuff you want to know about the affair, write it down and save it for one conversation after which you try to never talk about it again. Remember, she didn't WANT to cheat on her husband per se. She fell into it and she regrets her decision to stray from her marriage. The more you talk about it, the worse she feels about herself. Try to spend your free time with her and make her feel loved. This is where you need to know her emotional needs, so you can meet them. You can read about these on the website Marriagebuilders.com. I recommend the book "hiss needs, her needs" as well.

Space...if she is willing to break contact with the other guy, that is huge. Ideally, you will get her to agree to establishing and maintaining exceptional precautions. If she won't that is a huge red flag that she wants to continue the affair. To get someone to agree to exceptional precautions, you need make sure she knows that taking these precautions helps you love her and makes you feel secure with her. She needs to know that it is NOT punishment, but a part of healing that you need. You don't really want to give her space though. You want to be involved in her life! Like you were dating her. Spend that kind of time and energy on her so that she knows home is a safe place. You are a safe person.

Have her write the NC Letter to OM.
How Affairs Should End


[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, XXXXX

Thank you Goof, that was perfect. I will post more as updates progress.

You will also see in that article that I posted to you of "How Affairs Should end" that Dr. Harley recommends Anti-depressants. Will she see her doctor for some?

Can you plan a vacation away together? Just the two of you?

Please put Goof on ignore. He is mixing his programs and included weak betrayed husband terms and phrases within his advice that will harm you in the long run.

For example, a drug addict doesn't finally quit their drug because their spouse is a safe person and willing to NOT punish them. They quit because they hit rock bottom. Her "willingness" amounts to NOTHING. "Willingness" is bull puckey. The courage and the recovery are found in DOING "no contact".

With regard to addicts...addicts become addicted to a substance because it makes them feel good despite the world around them.

Your wife is in a special place because her substance is NOT making her feel good right now. This a time where you can capitalize on her realization that her addiction isn't making her happy. She knows her affair was wrong. She knows that her affair isn't making her happy right now. Punishment will not bring her back to you.

The way you break an addiction is to cut off the access to the substance. In this case, your wife is willing to be a part of that process. You absolutely need to be firm in getting her to cut off the other guy. You also need to FOLLOW UP with extraordinary precautions to HELP her maintain separation from her addiction. I emphasis HELP here because it is a mindset. You could view it as FORCE her to maintain separation, but the reality is that people have a tendency to RESIST FORCE. So a more approachable mindset is that you want to HELP her resist the addiction.

If she will let you, you really want to be around her as much as possible right now so that she can see that you still love her AND so that YOU can be the person she needs. (in a soulmate affair, she doesn't think you CAN be the person she needs. You have to prove her wrong)

What happened as a result of your workplace exposure? I can't find anywhere that you updated us on this.

If they still work in the same workplace, this is hopeless.

Another thing I think you should consider is being her champion.

I promise you that your wife is embarrassed right now. She is probably afraid of how to interact with you, your family, and your old friends. Figuring out how to integrate back into your old life can be a very daunting task. If you can find a way to tell your family (mother, father, kids?) that you and your wife are working on each other to rebuild your marriage, she will see your confidence in her and it will raise her up. Defend her when you can. If someone tries to give you crap about her, make sure she knows that you defend her mistake. She is not a bad person. She made a mistake and you STILL LOVE her.

When she talks about her affair, tell her thank you for trusting you with that information.

I went through the very same thing through which you are going. Only I was on the other side. My ex almost had me back, but right at the end, she punished me when I was the most vulnerable.

Like wonder said, addicts hit rock bottom. Who is going to be the person to pick her up? Hopefully you.

**edit**

moderator's note: DO NOT POST ON THIS THREAD AGAIN!

What does "prepping for no contact" mean? What did she say she is prepared to do? Is she prepared to leave her job?

Also, did she say anything during this conversation about getting back with you? Did she ask you to go home?

Bull.

Why? What difference does it make if she ends it on her own or not as long as it ends. As quickly as possible.

No wayward fails to recover because their spouse "punished them when they were most vulnerable". You are laying way too much responsibility for the failure of your marriage and failure of your recovery at the hands of the betrayed spouse you committed to NOT CHEAT ON. Perhaps 4 years into recovery we could discuss a former wayward bailing on recovery in a "when to call it quits" manner where the betrayed spouse is still not moving on, not getting over it and just making everyone miserable still but that discussion is NOT to occur while contact continues and recovery hasn't even started.

Get out of here with this wayward enabling trite.

I believe that exposure in my case was not a good idea. She said everyone already knew - including work before I had exposed. her "best friend" whom is For the affair - is the one who gossiped it to everyone.

BUT...you are promoting and encouraging him to soften her fall. Sure he wants to be there to pick her up and support her as she crawls out of her hole but you are getting your cart before your horse.

No she did not ask me to come home, nor did she specifically say anything about getting back together - not directly. She did state yesterday that she was looking for a new job, but I did not have her elaborate. I meant prepping, by her stating this " I think you are right and that is what I need to do". But she had to go to work. I did not want to force it on her so I will wait until our next moment before say more.

my thoughts are to be there to offer her a hand to stand up, but not pull her up. She will have to get up on her own, and stand for a bit on her own before we begin walking.

It's tough to see the good this close in. If "everyone already knew" then there's absolutely nothing for her to be upset at you about. It shouldn't bother early recovery in the least and YOU got to demonstrate just how far you are willing to go to fight for your marriage and demonstrate that you cherish her and your marriage more than she probably suspected.

In fact, in time, your biggest regret won't be exposure but rather that you waited at all to actually do the exposure.

I am asking you what happened as a result. I am asking you about Corporate's response. How did they respond to you, and what did they do about their working together? If you wrote to the CEO and VP, they were obliged to respond to you.

I'm not asking how she felt about it or what she told you about other people already knowing. I'm not asking for fog babble.

on the other hand, it's not uncommon for a wayward spouse to ACT like exposure wasn't a big deal, everybody already knew, blah, blah, blah as a manipulative technique to hopefully get you to STOP exposing. They may even indicate the are "willing to discuss ending the affair and reconciliation" as a means of tricking you into allowing them one more day or week with their affair partner.

You can bet there were a few key people that didn't know at the office that were left out of the loop. Like maybe the recently divorced and betrayed part owner or boss that could be your biggest ally by having a serious talk to your wife. One of the benefits of exposure is there are secret betrayed and former regretful wayward spouses everywhere that "get it" and are willing to share their experiences with someone they discover is in the midst of it. You find allies in strange places.

Mr. W

There was No response at all. and I emailed it to 3 addresses.

She is at work and this was the text I just got, I have not replied:

"Just because I said what I said today doesn't mean anything for us I appreciate you being there as a someone to talk to please try not to read to far into me speaking to you"

Looks like she felt herself being attracted to you, so now she's pulling back.

I want to agree. What is my next step. My gut tells me a little distance is in order.

Your next step is to continue Plan A. Plan A does NOT involve distancing yourself. If you distance yourself, you will appear uncaring and it will not be attractive to her. It will only drive her away.

No distance got it. I replied, "I am still right here".

This isn't good enough.

I notice that on DB you did not mention exposure at all. Are you sure you did it? I think you're posting what they want to hear over there, and what you think we want to hear over here.

When people on this forum write to the CEO and HR and the VP, they don't get "no response". You're the first I'm hearing about.

If you sent an email it could have gone into their spam filters. You need to send a registered letter to all three, as we always advise people to do.

If you're not going to take exposure seriously because it is absolutely forbidden at Divorce Busters, I don't see why anybody here is going to take helping you seriously. You need to follow Dr Harley's advice, and you need to be honest about doing so, or you should just admit that you're not going to follow it. Posters can then decide what to do.

Your wife is still working with this man and has said nothing about leaving her job or wanting to get back with you - in fact, she has just said the opposite. If you want to START doing PLan A, you need to act by exposing her affair to her employers, and following up if you hear nothing from them.

If in all the time you have been here, and in all the posts people have taken time to make, giving you advice...if through all that you haven't exposed to her employers, or taken steps to ensure that they received your letter, this whole enterprise has been a gigantic waste of everyone's time.

You can get advice to do nothing on DB! You're already getting that advice, and how productive has that been?

I would be happy to forward the email to you. I will follow up with a registered letter since the was no reply.

Broken record here.

Should I offer or suggest trying to get back into the home? I almost feel this is needed, but do not want to enact control by doing so. I only hesitate because she has that court order that prevents me on the premises - which she has not mentioned even Once since our trip, and I have been there at least once per day.

Please print the text of the email here.

To Whom It May Concern:


This is regard to the Lowes store in ***EDIT***


This letter is to bring a matter to your attention that may be a violation of your Company's Code of Conduct and/or other policies, procedures and business ethics.�

WW and OM are involved in an extramarital affair that is taking place. Aside from the potential sexual harassment claims this situation presents, it may also involve the inappropriate use of company resources and assets.


If you have any questions, please call me at ***EDIT***. Otherwise, I will anticipate a response from you once you have investigated these concerns and taken appropriate corrective action.

Regards,
***EDIT***

When will you be sending the registered letters?

Thursday or Friday

Be prepared for backlash from your wife about the letter. She will suspect it was you that sent it.

There was no response to this:

Should I offer or suggest trying to get back into the home? I almost feel this is needed, but do not want to enact control by doing so. I only hesitate because she has that court order that prevents me on the premises - which she has not mentioned even Once since our trip, and I have been there at least once per day.

How do I "be there" without exerting control that she clearly does not want me to have?


Latest texts:
Her: Please put the electric bill in the mailbox
Me: can I just bring it to the house?
Her: put it in the mailbox please and thank you.
Me: Ok, but I would like to just hand it to you.
Her: Put in in the mailbox, I thought you were learning how to listen to me.
Me: I am, and I am not arguing. We are talking.
Me: Communication was our biggest failure.
Her You're trying to be controlling telling me what you are going to do
Her:Stop acting like we are together cause we are not.

I did not reply. I do not want to say the wrong stuff here.

Wow. That looks exactly like an exchange I had with my WW a couple of months ago.

Okay, you're arguing with her. She'd like you to drop off the electric bill, and she sees you using it as a chance to do what YOU want and force her to see you.

Instead, invite her to see you, like you would have when you were dating:

Her: Please put the electric bill in the mailbox
Me: can I just bring it to the house?
Her: put it in the mailbox please and thank you.
Me: Ok, but I would like to just hand it to you.
Her: Put in in the mailbox, I thought you were learning how to listen to me.
Me: I am, and I am not arguing. We are talking.
Me: Communication was our biggest failure.
Her You're trying to be controlling telling me what you are going to do
Her:Stop acting like we are together cause we are not.
You: Okay, Babe.
You: I'd like to see you sometime. What would you think about meeting me for dinner at _________?"
Her: Not on your life. Stop acting like we are together.
You: I love you and miss you.
End of conversation

Don't tell her you're not arguing. She feels that you are. If you are going to win her back, you're going to have to start taking her complaints seriously.

Don't contradict her!

These situations are NEVER turned around by convincing your wife or persuading her of anything. NEVER. I have never once seen it done that way, and I've seen dozens of men LOSE their wives by doing that.

There is nothing to be gained by trying to persuade your wife of anything. Don't try it!

Especially when it has to do with HER feelings or perception.

I hear you all I was arguing. I understand completely.

Is this yet another post trying to dissuade people from exposing to the workplace? Is there a virus going around that is suddenly making men come here and tell other men not to expose?

Exposure to the workplace is Dr Harley's standard advice. The requirement that the WS leave the workplace is a cast-iron rule. Dr H never wavers from that advice; ever.

Billman should not be trying to hide the fact that he sent the letter, therefore there should be nothing for his wife to "suspect". He doesn't have to tell her in advance, but if she asks, he should answer truthfully.

WSs do not like exposure. We never give advice with the expectation that they WILL like exposure. Why, then, do you feel the need to warn him to be prepared for backlash? Are you trying to put him off before he does it?

That is great advice. I'm pretty sure I contradict my WW more than I realize. I haven't really picked up on it until reading the last few posts here. I can definitely say that the times I can recognize as me contradicting her, it didn't do me any good. She called the cops on me three times!

Well, I was confused seeing that you posted workplace exposure letters yesterday and claimed to expose it at the workplace several days ago.
You did not follow the guidelines in the Exposure 101 thread.
So, have you exposed this affair properly to family and friends?
Did you contact OM family and friends?
Lastly, did you post OM on Cheaterville?

I did post on cheaterville (ID - 35193) , and have answered these questions previously in this thread. The exposure was done, and the email was done in a manner that was suggested by I believe SugarCane ,and a template from the 101.

*Update, I spoke to my wife this morning, and she was adamant that she is ending it. She actually said help me figure this out. I know she can lie through her teeth, but sometimes the body language and gestures just tell a different story. I will update when I know more.

1. She needs to write and send the No Contact letter (all approved and witnessed by you) use the template on this site
2. Change all her contact info (phone, email, all social media, etc)
3. You may have to move depending on the proximity to OM

The only question remains, she has not yet expressed a willingness to reconcile. I think she is denying or avoiding feelings that appear obvious to me. But she actually said this morning - I am not doing this for you or so we can get back together. Personally - I think she just doesn't realize how much I mean to her, but I did not contradict or argue.

She will have to leave the job before there is any point sending an NC letter. They still work together!

I think Billman's wife is under the illusion that going to work alongside OM every day, but turning her nose up at him to let him know just how despicable he is for having stayed with his wife, is "NC". I'm sure that's what she understands by NC, and I don't think Billman is being too active about removing her from that job, either.

If you look at my prior posts about how she has stated that we are not together, I do not live in the home, and my previous years of controlling behavior. I cannot force her to do anything she does not want to do. If I say " you need to get another job", she will lol in my face. You talk as if I am just wimping out. I have asked Several times, how I should behave in this situation. I cannot control her, yet I am supposed to help her do what she must decide to do in a manner that puts me in control - right where she does not want me. Help me figure this out. and damnit I will surely do it.

Maybe this will help:
I was in control all the way up until the last time we split up. I gave her control to get her back and that turned this into a power trip. She is not going to just "let go" of control without a fight. But if I fight to hard she will back up to save herself from my control.

However she has told me on more than one occasion that I make her feel week. I have told her that is not weakness, that is comfortability and caring - compassion for me and feelings you are trying to hide and fight and deny that you have for me locked away.

Tell me how I can make her break in the face of that weakness, and still trust me and allow some loss of control without seeing me as a controlling person. And I will happily crack that egg.

First: you do not say "you will need to get another job" if she hasn't even raised the possibility of reconciliation, which she hasn't.

If she starts to explore reconciliation with you, that will be the time for you to work on the "rebuilding the marriage" list that people post often on here, but which I do not have to hand.

You have asked "several times" how you should behave in this situation, and you have been told that you need to properly expose this affair to her CEO, VP and Director of Human Resources. We thought you'd already done that. It turns out that you made a halfhearted attempt to do that, and when you did not get a reply to your emails (which is NOT the method we advise for this official communication), you did nothing more. You've been told now to send registered letters to these people, and you don't plan to do that until "Thursday or Friday". You do seem to be wimping out, to me.

You can't ask your wife to send a NC letter while she still works with OM. You need to first expose the affair properly at work. Then, if at any point she begins to talk about reconciliation, you bring up the conditions that she leave the job (if they haven't already fired her) and she sends an NC letter, gives you transparency over her communications, and all the rest of it.

You need to do things in a logical order. Surely you can see that?

I do see that and I do not mean to be ... belligerent.

Sir, if she refuses to end contact with her affair partner then the affair is ongoing.
It could go on and off for years into the future. You would essentially be in an "open marriage" and the laughing object of everyone who works with your wife at her job.

She was getting ready for no contact. She asked me to help her and be there for her through it. I did all I could and let it be about her and her feelings for the past 2 days. Today she is Right back at square 1. And when I say 1, i mean Cold as ICE.

She cried and cried, and next thing I know today he talked to her and she saw him after work, and ...done - Fog

It was an extreme sudden reversion. What should I expect from this point. I believe I still have the courage for Plan A. But my heart is yelling B. I don't want to plan B, it feels wrong.

Since our trip to NY, she has given hints about why now, and what if this and what if that. But today it was straight, No way I don't want to be with you. Not a tear shed like the past 2 weeks.

Past 2 days, "I dont want to be with him, I dont want to fix this" and today "I love him"

That is going to keep happening as long as she works with him.

I still don't know what you mean by "she was getting ready for no contact", if she had never given in her notice. Working with him is not "no contact", it is daily contact. It is a continuation of the affair.

The only way for to break her addiction is to remove her from the source of that addiction, completely and permanently. Not a drop of progress will be made until she leaves that job.

You need to expose to their employers.

She has been saying the last two days that she did not want to be with him anymore, and that she does not want to "fix" it. She cannot trust him because he is cheating on her AND his wife. He said he wasn't and she fell for it - because there is no "proof" that he is cheating n her. . So stupid. But yes he saw her at work and it "hurt too much" and they met up and I cannot even explain the reversion....it was a fix plain and simple. The letters to employer will be in the mail in the morning.

***edit****
To Whom It May Concern:

This is regard to the Lowes store in ****edit****

This letter is to bring a matter to your attention that may be a violation of your Company's Code of Conduct and/or other policies, procedures and business ethics.

WS and OM re involved in an extramarital affair that is taking place, primarily, in the workplace. Aside from the potential sexual harassment claims this situation presents, it also involves the inappropriate use of company resources and assets. WS and WS are using company time and company resources to further their affair. If you check the call histories on their office and cell phones along with their workstation computers, you will find the two of them are spending an inordinate amount of what should be productive work time to further their sexual relationship.

If you have any questions, please call me at***edit*** Otherwise, I will anticipate a response from you once you have investigated these concerns and taken appropriate corrective action.

Regards,

***edit****

You really must not post identifying information here for the world to see. You need to be "streetwise' when online. You should edit this while you still have time, taking out the company information, your location and your proper name.

I am finding it harder to respond to her in a loving manner. I am not saying I do not want to, it's just getting harder.

I know, just stay focused, I think you're making good progress. On the bright side, one of the advantages for men in Plan A is that at the end it's much easier for us to walk away. We know we tried our best, and our love banks eventually empty.

Thank you PM18 when you say progress, do you say that with hope or do you say that with experience on this forum?

Also how loving should I be, I have read everything I can about Plan A - do I continue the sweet nothings even tho she laughs at them, do I send them when she says stop. do I say beautiful wife at the end of a text.

My phrase to her has been lately, I am right here.

I say it reading your thread, from where it's started to where it is now. You had a nice trip with your WW, showed you cared, are changing yourself, I see more moments of less fog for her.

Continue to do and say nice things, especially that you are there for her.

Thank you. and in Topic Options I have my thread here on the watched list but I get no emails. Did I do something incorrect?

and what about ridicule from friends and family. I am being told by all who have been supporting me that I should tough love. I don't want to and I don't believe it will work. A part of me says do it, and wants to be mad at her. But I love her, if I give up - how could I possibly be the man I say I am.

I don't understand your question.

What about ridicule from family and friends?
Do you have your own mind or do you receive all of your value from their opinions?
Sir, there is a movie I want you to watch, even if you have already watched it: High Noon.
It is available everywhere. Many independent leaders, from Ike to Clinton have said it was their favorite movie and inspired them. It is about making independent decisions, regardless of public opinion.

Your friends and family have no idea how to save a marriage. They don't know how to effectively survive infidelity either. Tough love will only serve to confirm to your wife that you don't care and have never cared for her or about her.

If you want to save your marriage, stick to the most effective path. Of course, you're angry and hurt and you have the right to divorce her now if that's what you choose. But if you want to save your marriage, Plan A is your best choice - not tough love.

Getting mad at her WILL push her away. Respond with your brain, not emotions, and certainly not with your families emotions. Take the advice of the people here who have recovered from what you are experiencing and have great marriages (not me yet, but hopeful), not your family who may not have such experience.

How do I explain to my family that my decision to Plan A is the right thing to do when I feel like I alienate them. They see my pain of doing this, no matter how much strength I try to muster. My sister and my mother both supported me through this from the beginning, but they do not agree with the Fog or Addiction principle. It is getting harder to talk to them - they both are saying play tough love to her. Plan B all the way they say. Part of me understands what they say, but my heart argues. I just want some guidance from here - since you have all been/going/got through it.

Edit - I posted this before reading the answers above. That is what I needed to hear. Thank you.

Tell them to Google: addiction affair. There are almost 10,000,000: 10 million! results. Tell them that you love your wife and you are fighting for your marriage. Tell them getting angry and pushing your wife away will not save your marriage, it will only make the end happen with greater probability and sooner. Tell them that it hurts you what she is doing and you need their support, understanding, and respect.

Ask them to read Surviving an Affair and tell you what they think of it and the advice given. That will have them back off while the read it, and hopefully help them to understand.

I would like to update the situation a bit, and get advice as to whether there is something I can do in the upcoming time.

My wife has a two week vacation starting 19th, until the end of the month. She will be out of work. The letters are sent registered mail to workplace today (she will be pissed I am sure - I'll own it). OM is supposed to be "traveling" to other stores starting January - I do not know more than this. OMW is supposed to be moving out end of January.

The only time they will see each other is IF OM goes to the home at night. She finds a baby sitter for the time. Or she makes a stupid decision to have kids meet him. (she has a book on step parenting)

Your family does not want to see you suffer, and they see you suffering terribly. It's going to be very hard for them to agree with Plan A because they aren't objective observers of the situation, they are biased.

My entire family (nearly to the person) wants me to leave my wife because they are so disgusted with her behavior (ROs, going NC with me, etc)...it's just how it is. I would probably feel the same way if I was in their shoes and had no experience with MB.

Most of them do not know that I am doing Plan A and have no reason to know. I simply do not talk to them about it and we have plenty of other things to talk about.

I also generally explain that recovery is conditional so that they understand the end result of this is an improved, affair-proof marriage, not the status quo.

Just my $.02.

I've tried to explain all this to my family as well, but they still don't want to hear it. They want me to move on and to quit suffering. Even if the divorce goes through, I plan on waiting a while to see if I get another shot at a better, affair-proof marriage like justthe3ofus.

Thank you axslinger85 - maybe just giving them too much info. For sure they are disgusted with her. What hope do you see in your situation if any, or are you still in that wait and see portion.

I am getting access denied on the Carrot and a stick thread in start her first

Well...since we do not have kids and it's only been a 6 year marriage, I am OK if divorce and remarriage is the outcome here. Particularly since Dr. Harley highlighted some concerns about my wife's personality today that I have privately held myself. It's not to say I do not love my wife, but I am a realist and this situation has been awful. And there are plenty of other women out there.

I look at it as this: I am moving on to a different marriage in either case. Either a very different marriage with the same person, or a new marriage with a new person. I am not going back to the same marriage. If it's a different person, I don't have kids so it's a much easier pill to swallow for me.

I'm more concerned about not making the same mistakes again however it works out.

With regards to the family and their opinions, if my family saw a passionate and vibrant marriage between my WW and I, along with more marital integration and her dropping her OS friendships, I think they would probably be fine. If they actually saw that, it would mean a lot to them.

My background is IT and I used to work for a firm that specialized in disaster recovery, so I have been in some absolutely wretched situations with fairly big companies where the previous IT contractor or personnel was actually fired. I've dealt with a lot of angry people and the script is usually the same. They want to see positive changes, and once you can give them that they start to feel differently about things. Don't promise things, don't try to reason, just work quietly to deliver the goods.

That's how I feel about the angry families issue. Build a visibly great marriage and the families will probably be fine after they feel safe about the WW. They would need to see her be crazy/head over heels about the husband.

Not just the angry families, but both spouses in recovery should see the goods quietly delivered.

Axe,

Your point about the angry families issue may work in more than one way. Specifically, "delivering the goods". My WW has expressed concern to me about what her family will think of her if she decides to drop the divorce and work on recovery. At the time, all I could think to tell her was that her family would support whatever decision she made. I think that I should have worked in a line about "delivering the goods", as you said it. Her family would support her even more after seeing her and I create a better marriage than we had before.

I have a similar concern. The ONLY one in her family that would fight with me is her younger brother. The only one. But she does not talk to him and he will not step up. The most important person to her is her father and he's about as thick as a bull. Other than myself, there is not one person in the world trying to talk sense to her or fight with me toward her in any way.

In fact, her father and step mother have so much as supported her affair, and told her if she were to reconcile with me, they would move away.

Sorry to hear that, Billman, I will pray for you. I can't imagine being stuck between the families like that!

Yeah, really. I fortunately have families on both sides where divorces are extremely rare, and have had pressure from both sides on WW.

My mother has asked me if she should talk to my wife. I think if my mom were to do that she would lay it on.. I mean LAY it. I think that is a bad idea. She says she wants to tell her what I have been going through, share her experiences, and try to talk some sense into her. I don't think this would have Any positive impact at all. I would like some thoughts to confirm or deny my opinion.

Edit - in person face to face.

That's wild. I can't believe they would be so against saving a marriage. I understand apathy toward an affair(though I wouldn't condone it) but father and step-mother are enforcing an affair.

I get almost zero support from family but that is better than family providing incentive against reconciliation. Good luck, at least you know who you can't count on.

I wrote my wife a letter, is there any way I can share it without typing it?

???

Copy/Paste?

Or, use that site that PM has been using to show his POSOM's e-mails.

LTL

I hand wrote it. but I could scan it. whats the site, I thought we could use links.

Edit - Ill just type it.

I see parts that may not be right, please help me correct them.

----Letter----
Dearest Name, my wife, my love, my everything 12-12-2014

As much as I know you do not want to hear what I have to say, I must for the sake of our family fight with everything I have.

I cannot accept your decision to end our marriage; I cannot accept your decision to continue this affair. But alas, I know I cannot control you, or force you. But I must do everything in my power to prove myself to you, to our children.

Your decision to end our marriage from your perspective is justified. But from my perspective we have an opportunity to build a beautiful, loving, prosperous, and most of all happy marriage. A happy family. This must first start with you forgiving me and yourself for our past. Forgiveness is never easy. God I know it. But also I forgive you, I always have.

What you are doing now is hurting our family, the one you tried so hard to keep together. Don�t give up on your hard work. Our children are going to suffer so much more than you can possibly understand right now. To our children, their precious little lives began on a foundation of family values that kept us together. To break those values will break bonds, hearts, and spirits of three innocent lives.

My Love, I understand more than you realize the pain, confusion, and fear you are facing. So let me say this: I told you I would lay down my life for you, if that is what it would take for you to survive. I would do the same for our children as well. I will fight for this family until my heart shatters from emptiness.

I will not beg, plead, or grovel. But I do implore you to find the strength to save your children, to save your family. I know you are tired, I know you are exhausted. I will do most of the fighting, but I need your help.

I am not mad at you, I do not hate you. I am not ashamed of you. I will never hold this over you or make you feel guilty. I have already forgiven you. I would be so proud to show you to the world as my wife, the mother of our children. All I ask is that you step back and trust your instincts, that what you are doing is hurting our family in ways you can never repair if you continue on this path.

You are my home. You are my other half. You are my soul. There is no length that is to far to be there for you. I am here for you, I always have been, and I always will be.

My Loverly, my wife. I know this road I offer you will not be easy. But saving a family means so much more than the path to save it. It is worth it, beyond all else. Find your strength my darling, find your way. I promise to hold your hand and walk that road with you. There is happiness at the end of the journey that compares to no other.

I promise, All of my love, your husband, Name

Who was that that reconciled? Justthe3ofus? I would love to get his spouse comments as well if possible..

"This must first start with you forgiving me and yourself for our past."

This seems demanding the way it is worded. I completely understand what you are saying though. Maybe instead of "must" you can say that you feel it must or that "we must start..." I would try not to put to much of it on her.

Remember that Dr.Harley says that BSs should not expect an apology.

" But I do implore you to find the strength to save your children, to save your family."

I'm not sure what would be better to say here but, I know my WW would view this as me using the kids against her. It might still be OK though.

"All I ask is that you step back and trust your instincts, that what you are doing is hurting our family in ways you can never repair if you continue on this path."

To me, asking her to trust her instincts is like asking her to trust her feelings. Feelings lie. I would not say this. There may be a better way to say it though. You are also defining her "instincts" for her; it may come across as controlling.

Other than what I have noted (and I'm no vet) your letter seems excellent. I am taking notes from it.

That sounds like a great idea.

It reads far to judgmental and weak (the multiple endearments is too much for a wayward who is checked out) I suggest the following or something more like it:


Dearest Name,


Your decision to end our marriage from your perspective is justified. I am sorry that I have not met your most important emotional needs. This created a void that allowed OM to try to meet them.

I believe that you and I have an opportunity to build a beautiful, loving, prosperous, and most of all happy marriage. A happy family.

That we have made it to this point where everything is seemingly lost is so very heartbreaking. Let us work together to turn things around and create a mutually satisfying marriage for us and our children. I am willing to do this with you. I pray that you have a change of heart and decide to join me in doing so.

I am here for you and our children


All of my love, your husband, Name

I typed my letter/note until I got the way I wanted it, then hand wrote it. That way I didn't mess up hand writing it, but it was more personal that way. Anyway, the site for future reference is: http://0bin.net/, you could scan docs and the site encrypts them.

You need to go to "my stuff" - "preferences" and set your preferences to have topics on your watch list emailed to you.

I think that letter is very judgemental and hostile, and sending it would be a serious mistake.

@SugarCane, can you offer something different. How about what @reading suggested. And how about @face1's response, I have two wildly different opinions.

And @SugarCane, what do you think of @ Jedi_Knight's post?

This is an example of what I've sent my wife, based on the template Justthe3ofus provided me:

http://0bin.net/paste/8RFhCWUZIwRY2PV2#VYET+wqzl-J5WJmldgYCN88ba8H9Qsc+a0YVK4pHlL7

In whatever you send, I would not tell her she's justified in leaving you, because she's not. Reasons but no excuses for an affair.

I would also steer about a million miles away from telling her that you know how she's feeling, that there are limits to your desire to please her (e.g. I won't beg/plead/etc), or anything else judgmental or presumptuous. Stick to positives about her, positives about what you're willing to do for her, and positives about your past together.

I'll have to come back to this later. I have no time to post now. I posted earlier because I urgently wanted to stop you sending that letter. I think it would be wildly counter-productive.

The short answer is that you need to keep your goal in mind. Your goal is to convince her that if she will give another chance, you will deal with her complaints about the marriage, and that the horrible behaviour that you displayed when she lived with you will never happen again. You should be writing a love letter to her. That letter you drafted would not sound like a love letter if I were in her position. It tells her off, it lays down the law ("I will not beg"; why say this at all? How does it help her to fall back in love with you? You are STILL mixing DB nonsense with Plan A), it expresses anger and it expresses impatience.

It would be better not to send anything at all than to send that. That letter needs to be scrapped, not edited and salvaged.

What he said.

Spoke to her this morning. Her step mother told her if I truly loved her I'd let her go. I told her I cannot accept that, true love never gives up. I stopped there to not argue. When she was going to end the relationship, the reason she decided to continue was because the OM told her I was brainwashing her into having feelings for me, and she believed that.

The conversation did not end well, I did not break (get mad or mean or harsh), and simply listened and said I was not brainwashing you.

At the end she said, from now on if we talk, it is about the children only or I just will not talk to you.

How do I compete with Letting go vs not giving up.

Her stepmother reads to many romance novels.

Of course the OM told her you were brainwashing, that is the exact tactic of a brainwasher.

Dont listen to her nonsense, keep doing your Plan A best.

That's exactly what PM's WW POSOM has been banging into her head about him.

It must be a Playahs Script thing.

LTL

Her brother is on my side, but is unwilling to help me fight. I asked if he could talk to his father. He said he'd try but I do not have any confidence that he will accomplish anything. My wife only chooses to go to the only people that will not fight with me. I pray they open their hearts, but I do not see that possible. I am at such a disadvantage.

Have you drafted up a new letter, yet? I agree with the others, do not send your previous letter. It needs to be a love letter. Have you ever wrote your W a love letter before?

Yes I have, writing it today I will post once ready

Dearest Name, my Loverly, My Wife, My love, My everything,

When we first met, it took me over a month to get the courage to ask you out. I knew how to talk to a girl and I knew what I could say to win you over. But there was that way about you, your smile, your eyes, and the sweetness in your voice that melted me. I never felt that way with anyone ever. The day I finally found the courage to use my words, I knew you were the one.

That night in the park, while you were on the swing, that moment has lasted forever in my heart. I remember telling you how I wish time would stop so we could live this moment for as long as we chose to stay in it.

Last year for our 9 year anniversary, you told me how happy you were that we made it as far as we have, after all the struggles and trials life seemed to throw our way. I was so happy to hear your words. This is the reason I would always say �Thank you�, and you would reply �for what�. �For loving me�, I replied.

Every time we held hands, I would touch the ring I placed on your finger. I would kiss it and kiss you. I would smile and see you smile back every time. I made it a point in my life to make you smile at every chance I had, and I was always able to do so; even now.

I feel nearly broken, my heart is breaking in ways I never thought imaginable. I thought we were happy, and I was so blinded by the day to day, I could not see your smile was fading. But yet you still smiled. There was a glimmer that was still there, I would swear that even now I can still see it, albeit faint.

It saddens me more than I can express, in words, in tears, or in actions, on how life has come to be today. I am deeply hurt by your decision to leave our marriage for this affair. I have so many hopes and dreams that I know are before us, our marriage can be better than ever. There is a path we can take to enable us to find the romance we used to have and lost along the way. I ask you, dear wife, take my hand, and fight with me to rebuild our trust and love. Walk with me on this path so we can find that happiness.

I promise you that we can both find the happiness that you so desire, that you so deserve, if we can both learn to meet each other�s emotional needs. We never have to walk that lonely road ever again.

I realize this goes against your desires as I have been a flawed and imperfect husband. I am sorrier than these words will ever express for my role in hurting your heart and destroying the love that we had shard so deeply. Falling out of love does not mean an end, it is not an excuse to say goodbye. It is a problem that we can face together with our heads held high, so that we can reach the end of the road more in love, and happier than we ever have been before; and to stay that way, for better or worse, until the end of forever that I always promised you.

With all my heart, you Lover, your Husband, Name

That looks great Billman.

You are still trying to educate and preach to her, telling her what is right from what is wrong!

And stop telling her how hurt you are! She doesn't care! Appealing your own self-interest is not the way to win her back!

(I should be edited for excessive use of exclamation marks, I know.)

I also think you should take out any lines that suggest that she is equally responsible for the mess you are in, and that she needs to take an equal role in meeting needs and building the new marriage. The thing is that, while those points are true, telling her that she needs to step up is NOT A WAY TO WIN HER BACK.

She doesn't want to go back to you.

She is more than finished with you.

You were a lousy husband and she does not want you back, whether her affair ends or not.

That is her perspective. With that in mind, telling her that she has no excuse to walk away from you is disrespectful and HIGHLY ANNOYING to her.

She already IS away from you. All she wants to do is continue on the path she is on, living without you and bringing up the children. If OM stays with her I'm sure that's fine in her view, but if he doesn't, with your record as a husband there is no earthly reason why she should consider going back to you when the affair ends.

If you want her to consider going back to you, you have to tell her how you will be different. Don't use terms like "emotional needs"; that isn't a term that I would want to read in a love letter.

I really don't like all your mushy stuff at the start of the letter, and all the reminiscing. I think it is rather cringe-making to read, but that could just be because it is cringe-making to read anyone else's love letter. I would gather a few more views from women here, if you can get them, on those points.

If I were her, I'd be ticked off about the fact that you choose selectively to remember the good bits early on in your relationship, but choose not to admit that you had sex with another woman and have an OC, that you had a gaming addiction, that you were a lousy father who ignored his kids and you were a poor husband who checked out of the marriage long before she did. Do you think that she has forgotten how it was when you first met, and that all you have to do is remind her of it and she'll forget the reasons she fell out of love with you?

Having said that, I don't think that your letter needs a be a "mea culpa" list of all your faults, either. That would hardly come across as a love letter to me.

I'm not sure why you are writing this letter at all at this time, but I'll re-read your thread to see what prompted it. Did Dr Harley suggest it when you were on the show?

If you do feel you need to write a letter, it needs to say that you are sorry for making her unhappy when you were married. Tell her you would like her to give you another chance to be the husband that she wants. Tell her that you are in anger management and that you will never be angry with her, or show disrespect to her, again. Tell her you will never play another computer game. (I think there is some financial problem that you've had, as well; tell her that you are clearing your debts, or whatever is the issue.) Tell her that you are asking her to give you a chance to make her happy, and that you will be there when she needs you, but don't make it sound as if you are saying goodbye. Goodbye is for a Plan B letter.

Don't copy my words. Your words need to sound like your expressions, and also, you will know better than I whether she likes the slushy stuff that I disliked.

This is what I gave my wife this week, she already knew the conditions, she said it was everything she wanted to hear, but couldn't trust it yet (of course and rightly so), but did say she believed that I believed it:

I should have picked this out of the letter, also. This, below, would tick me off mightily, too. How could you have thought she was happy when you were ignoring her and the children, playing games for hours on end and running up debts? How you could have thought she was happy about the OC and the circumstances surrounding it?

If you thought she was happy when to anyone else it would have been obvious that she was deeply unhappy, then you were wilfully blind, and she should have no confidence that you will know when she is unhappy again. She will not go back to someone who does not know when she is unhappy.

The truth is that you didn't care.

That sentence is you doing what you did before, Billman, when you wanted a book recommendation that you could give to her that would show her that you were not that bad a husband at all. You are still saying that you don't get what the big deal is.

You still don't get it. You still don't get how badly you let her down.

And the final sentence, telling her that you know she still loves you when she is quite certain that she doesn't, is yet another disrespectful judgement.

Yeah, my POSOM kept telling WW that if she stayed in the house, then I would brainwash her into another chance and trap her with me and she would be stuck doing sexual favors for me every day. Standard OP for AP to try to break the marriage.

Billman should not apologise for any Harley-recommended action that he took to save his marriage. I haven't been following your case closely enough to be sure, pm, but if you apologised for reading her emails then you were wrong to do so. You had every right to read her emails at any time, and especially so in attempt to end the affair.

There are two points that this sort of love letter needs to cover; that is, in the case of a man who was a poor excuse for a husband, and who, as in Billman's case, had sex with another woman and has an OC, and who wants to win his wife back:

1. I am sorry for what I did.

2. i will never do it again.

Agree with SC...I am not a fan of the mushiness. It is over-the-top to me. If I was a withdrawn WW, I would especially not want to read that...it would tick me off.

You're right for calling that out. I did not word that the way I intended. I intended to express my understanding for her feelings and opinions on the subject, but not apologize. I had added the "I agree in most cases" to imply that I do not agree in this situation, and forgot to changing the open to the paragraph

There's certainly a variety of opinions here on what you should say and I had forgotten your background story with your A and OC.

I would email Dr. Harley since you've been on the show and he is familiar with your case. See what he thinks a Plan A letter in your scenario should say.

I agree with SugarCane on the review of your letter.
I would also look for a recommendation from the Harleys.

In other words - ignore all the advice he's received here? It's impossible to see what advice is good by listening carefully to the arguments that are made, so don't take any of it on board?

That phrase "why not write to Dr Harley?" is so often used here to passive-aggressively dismiss the advice that people don't agree with.

Why should anyone post on your thread, ax? Why don't you just write to Dr Harley?

# 1 and # 2.

The In Love is Bullsheet to her ears after all the years if being neglected and played.

Let the letter and specifically, Your Actions SHOW how you are serious.

Otherwise, it's all fog talk to her.

LTL

My Loverly, My wife,

I am so sorry for all the years of pain I have caused. I am sorry for the neglect and my disloyalty. I can never take back the pain I caused by having a child with another woman, and the torment I must have put you through with my ambivalence. I am sorry for the weight of my selfishness and my know-it-all attitude. I saw you unhappy, and I thought I was trying, but I did not learn, and I surely was not trying hard enough, I see that now. I am sorry for my gaming addiction, for my laziness, for my utter disregard of your feelings. I controlled you and charged us right to an end.

My love, I take responsibility in my lack of romancing you, and wooing you. I stopped courting you and took you for granted. I took advantage of the fact that I would never lose you. I have loved you from the moment I first saw you. I vowed to love you until my last breath. I forgot to live up to that promise. I lost sight along the way and did not care for you the way I meant to, the way you deserved. I will never again mistreat you in the way I have. I will never neglect you or our children for any reason. I will never play another video game ever again or sit on the couch and do nothing when there is housework to be done.

I am currently in anger management classes so that I can learn to control my anger. I will never be angry with you or disrespect you � Never again. I will not ignore our children regardless of how small their issues may be. I will show them love and admiration in all that they do. And I will never again ignore you when you tell me anything. I did not truly listen to you when you told me you were unhappy.

I will no longer live in my ignorance. I am changing because I want to. I never intended you harm, physical or emotional. I want to prove that to you, by becoming the man I should have always been; the man that you need, but not because you need me � because I want to be that man. I want to be there for you for the rest of my life because you deserve it. You do not have to ask me to change; I cannot ask you to believe I will. But with everything I am, I WILL change. I am learning so much more every day.

I am fully dedicated to your happiness, to our family�s happiness. I pray that someday you will see the man I become, and remember the man you fell in love with. Things will never be the same again, if we can stay married and find love again; and you allow me to show you the care and respect I never should have taken from you, I promise you a healthier, more loving, and happy marriage. I will continue to learn, and own my faults. I will train myself to listen and actually hear you. I will show you how genuine my love truly is for you, and will never lose sight of what really matters.
Your Husband,

My letter template was drafted by someone who won his wife back from OM after a 16 month A. That user felt my situation was similar enough to his that he could really help me.

I realized my situation is not similar enough to Billman's for me to have that same confidence. Our situations are quite different.

My apologies if that offended you, it was not my intent.

Are you under the impression that I have criticised your letter?

You should read again, if so.

Better. I don't have time to edit but struck out two sentences. I would stay away for too much absolutes (always and never). Saying you will always give your children admiration no matter what they do is not believable nor something you should do anyway. The fact is you have lost her as of now so delete or change that wording.

I have edited per above post:

My Loverly, My wife,

I am so sorry for all the years of pain I have caused. I am sorry for the neglect and my disloyalty. I can never take back the pain I caused by having a child with another woman, and the torment I must have put you through with my ambivalence. I am sorry for the weight of my selfishness and my know-it-all attitude. I saw you unhappy, and I thought I was trying, but I did not learn, and I surely was not trying hard enough, I see that now. I am sorry for my gaming addiction, for my laziness, for my utter disregard of your feelings. I controlled you and charged us right to an end.

My love, I take responsibility in my lack of romancing you, and wooing you. I stopped courting you and took you for granted. I have loved you from the moment I first saw you. I vowed to love you until my last breath. I forgot to live up to that promise. I lost sight along the way and did not care for you the way I meant to, the way you deserved. I will never again mistreat you in the way I have. I will not neglect you or our children for any reason. I will not play another video game ever again or sit on the couch and do nothing when there is housework to be done.

I am currently in anger management classes so that I can learn to control my anger. I will never be angry with you or disrespect you � Never again. I will not ignore our children regardless of how small their issues may be. I will show them love and admiration and praise them when it is due. And I will not ever again ignore you when you tell me anything. I did not truly listen to you when you told me you were unhappy.

I will no longer live in my ignorance. I am changing because I want to. I never intended you harm, physical or emotional. I want to prove that to you, by becoming the man I should have always been; the man that you need, but not because you need me � because I want to be that man. I want to be there for you for the rest of my life because you deserve it. You do not have to ask me to change; I cannot ask you to believe I will. But with everything I am, I WILL change. I am learning so much more every day.

I am fully dedicated to your happiness, to our family�s happiness. I pray that someday you will see the man I become, and remember the man you fell in love with. Things will never be the same again, if we can stay married and find love again; and you allow me to show you the care and respect I never should have taken from you, I promise you a healthier, more loving, and happy marriage. I will continue to learn, and own my faults. I will train myself to listen and actually hear you. I will show you how genuine my love truly is for you, and will never lose sight of what really matters.
Your Husband,

I'm wondering why you use this phrase:
I'm nor from the USA, so I might be wrong about this, but from my position as a Brit, this look like either bad spelling of "lovely", or worse, it makes you sound like
D i c k Van Dyke in Mary Poppins - the worst cockney accent in history.

Is this a term that your wife is used to you using about her?

Yes she is my honey ,and my loverly. since the day we began

Much better, Billman12

It's in the mailbox - handwritten of course.

I was in a good mood, trying to be while working today, I had my phone on silent - no vibrate or anything. I think I went WAY overboard in my text with her: (does not have timestamps - first three messages were within hours before my reply)


Her: Daycare I have to pay Hannah please

Her: I don't have the money to pay daycare the trip to ny was not in my budget so if you would please do what you said with paying for daycare I would appreciate it

Her: Fine don't help me don't expect to see the kids either till a court hearing is set

Me: My precious love. Always assuming the worst in me, always so angry. And yet my heart still so strong for you.

Her: You don't respond or the money isn't in the bank so what am I suppose to assume
Me: Please do not assume. I am working, the Q is 50 deep. It is very busy. The money is there. I know you like to be mad at me, and you always always assume the worst with me. And yet I love you regardless.

Her: I'm sorry you still could have text me and the money wasn't when I checked not long ago

Me: I hand you the world, gently and with a smile. And you get a grumpy face yank it from me and say I never give you anything..and I am still....right.....here.....
Her: That's what makes you better than me

Me: I want to be your equal. Not better...

Me: I remember back when. We did not have cell phones and one of us would sit home waiting for the other to come home. Time to miss one another. I miss those days so much. You smile on a daily basis. You are better than you think my love. Worth so much more than you are crediting yourself..someday you will see that...maybe then I will be worthy of you....enjoy your night my heart.

Me: I don't want to be better than you. I don't want to be above you..I would give everything to stand with you.

OK......

"I know you like to be mad at me, and you always always assume the worst with me. And yet I love you regardless."

That's a HUGE DJ with something that sort of looks like a compliment at the end, but is actually also an insult (you are undeserving of my love). You can't say stuff like that, man. Anything that starts with "I know you think/feel X, but Y" is a HUGE DJ. It will make her hate you. Try to memorize that. It's easy to reach for when you're frustrated with someone, but it's incredibly disrespectful, you cannot say that to her.

You probably withdrew love units with this whole exchange. If your compliment has anything negative about your wife in it, it's not a compliment and she will see it as snide and pretending you are better than her.

Stuff like this I'd stick to short, genuine compliments. Leading off a text with "my precious love" will probably make her think you are being sarcastic.

If she asks you for a favor I'd respond politely and with some icing on top. Like POLITELY offering an extra favor you know she'd appreciate, or telling her you're thinking of her, or that she looked nice the last time you her, etc.

So if the DJ was not there, would that still have been over the top? And I certainly was not being sarcastic, these are the things I used to say to her in text responses.

Ahh....well, if that's the norm to lead off with the poetry, that's different then.

On over the top versus not, or etc. Don't ever say anything that suggests loving her in spite of the circumstance. It will make her feel like you're saying she's undeserving of your love, because that's basically what it means.

The poetic stuff (if it's not out of place from how you normally converse via text) is probably OK, just no DJs.

Her: Daycare I have to pay Hannah please

Her: I don't have the money to pay daycare the trip to ny was not in my budget so if you would please do what you said with paying for daycare I would appreciate it

Her: Fine don't help me don't expect to see the kids either till a court hearing is set

Me: My precious love. Always assuming the worst in me, always so angry. And yet my heart still so strong for you.
DJ!

Her: You don't respond or the money isn't in the bank so what am I suppose to assume
Me: Please do not assume. I am working, the Q is 50 deep. It is very busy. The money is there. I know you like to be mad at me, and you always always assume the worst with me. And yet I love you regardless.
DJ!

Her: I'm sorry you still could have text me and the money wasn't when I checked not long ago

Me: I hand you the world, gently and with a smile. And you get a grumpy face yank it from me and say I never give you anything..and I am still....right.....here.....
DJ!

Her: That's what makes you better than me

Me: I want to be your equal. Not better...

Me: I remember back when. We did not have cell phones and one of us would sit home waiting for the other to come home. Time to miss one another. I miss those days so much. You smile on a daily basis. You are better than you think my love. Worth so much more than you are crediting yourself..someday you will see that...maybe then I will be worthy of you....enjoy your night my heart.

Me: I don't want to be better than you. I don't want to be above you..I would give everything to stand with you.

Bill, don't sing your own praises to her, and don't tell her how great and steadfast you are. Don't tell her what to think you (or anything).

I don't know if your wife likes super syrupy conversation/compliments but that was way over the top to me. I hand you the world...ummmmmm...laying it on thick. I would dial it way back. Keep it simple.

"I transferred the funds this afternoon. How is DD? How are you?"

"Sorry for not responding right away. It is very busy right now. How is your day going?"

"The funds should be in the account. Please let me know if there is anything else I can do for you. Have a good weekend."

If you know that she has liked the sweet talk in the past, keep them up. There's nothing inherently wrong with them. Just keep the DJs out of it!

My precious, my love, my heart...she will shut down if you insist on calling her these things and being all flowery in your responses.

Did she respond in a positive way and like them? If so, then carry care on. Different strokes.

"Have a good weekend." - things like that I couldn't say. She texts me at least once per day. and it usually involves the children in some way, but just to small talk convo. In fact this morning she called me up while at Walmart just to tell me she was buying gifts for Christmas. She did not ask me anything, I just listened, Of course I wanted to say A LOT. but nothing she would have wanted to hear of course, so I just listened.

Well she did ask one question and I bit my tongue After I said it. She said what do you think they want fro Christmas - i said same thing I want. her reply was "other than that?" . I just said I have the list they gave me in my papers here, and she just went on talking again, I listened then she she ended the call.

She does this she calls or texts in a manner that appears to be to shoot the crap. Sometimes I have no idea how to take that. At first I presumed it was her missing me a bit - but I cannot know.

@Prisca and @Black_Raven - two responses wildly differing.

I was not consistent with them before, but I did them, and she mentioned later that I was sweet. So I would do them as often as I "remembered" (fail I now realize), now tho, no there is almost no acknowledgment of it.

I was doing this prior to the trip to NY, and she would ask me to stop. the two weeks where I thought she was waking up, she did not object at all.

But usually she just replies as if I don't say anything sweet, just the basics, it is not acknowledged. Except for today, where she said "That's what makes you better than me " This is really the first time she acknowledged a response outside of that two weeks.

I am sure I can "tone it down", but to stop would feel cold to me, since it is a norm to some degree. Maybe avoid key words.?

I personally don't care for a man to talk to me like that but she might. However, since she has gone from telling you to stop to not objecting, I would at least take the temperature of the conversation first and go from there. Don't immediately respond with a term of endearment. If the exchange is going well then maybe step it up but I wouldn't pour it on either.

Sorry if my prior posts came across as critical. I do not know what your WW likes and doesn't but it seemed like too much IMO.

But surely you can see that their differences are over matters of style, not substance. Surely you can see that they have different responses to the "mushy stuff", but that they are leaving the decision over using that kind of language up to you. It is crucial that you get the tone of your speech (or texts) correct, but, in terms of mushiness, that tone is whatever is appropriate between you and your wife. If she likes it and has never told you to put a sock in it, then black_raven is not ordering you to stop it.

Don't use that issue to try and make the point that since people here differ, then either they don't know what they are talking about, or there is no correct answer, and therefore your approach is as good as anyone's. It really isn't.

The thing that there is only one correct interpretation of, and that you do all the time, is to utter disrespectful judgements. Disrespect has ruined your marriage and made your wife fall out of love with you, and it does not matter how much mushy language you use today; if you are wrapping that language around DJs, you are doing far more harm than good - and that is what you did in the text exchange above.

In your response to Prisca and black_raven, you completely ignored Prisca's time-consuming edit of your DJs and discussed only the mushy language, which you are in a position to defend.

The far worse problem is your DJs, and I have not seen you realise the enormity of them at all yet. If you don't learn what they are, you can't learn how to stop them from coming out of your mouth. It will be too late each time you report an exchange here that has already taken place.

Exactly! Read this post of Sugarcane's very carefully, Billman.

I understand

@Prisca - Did there come a time when you began to struggle with deciding between your partner and your spouse?

I mean was there a time where you wanted to be with your spouse but did not want to hurt your partner?

If my wife were in that stage, would she tell me or try to hint it?
What would help her know or find or understand that saving her family would be a better choice if any - other than my doing Plan A correctly.

You need to stop making up stages that don't exist and start learning and applying Dr. Harley's plan.

Plan A is your only hope.

I understand, I do not mean to make stages, I was just curious what goes on during that time. I just wanted to understand better, nothing more.

I think I just want to know that if she reaches out, I don't want to mistakenly miss her hand. unless I am supposed to wait for her to call out as opposed to reach. I don't know . . I am just trying to feel the hope and not the sorrow.

And I am still getting Access Denied on the Carrot and Stick of Plan A page.

Trying to understand the mind of a wayward will drive you insane. There is no logic to their thinking.

Here is what you need:

Plan A in a nutshell
1. Complain about the affair, often
2. Demonstrate willingness and ability to meet emotional needs
3. DO NOT FIGHT

Billman12, I have/had a huge problem with DJs. I spent many hours last week reading and listening and taking notes and rewriting notes over and over from the DJ chapter in Love Busters. I will not say I've mastered Respect and disrespect yet, but I know my effort is paying off. I'm not done, it will be something I review EVERY week of my future life.

Paying off to the point my WW mentioned multiple times I wasn't the BH she knew and it was clear she was referring to my respecting her opinion. Also, I find I can recognize DJs much, much easier when others say them. I've had to council my grandma not to say certain things that were DJs, and I'm recognizing them now. This experience was humbling to me, and being willing to be wrong and not so certain you are right is critical.

You can learn to be much more disrespectful and eliminate almost all DJS , if persistent and motivated in less than a week. My method worked for me, find a method that works for you. I respectfully suggest you do it now and don't wait another day to start.

I've found it very liberating. I no longer get very frustrated when people don't do what I want them to, I instead think I could persuade them instead of demanding or insulting them. It's nice.

Does complaining about the affair make LB withdrawals? Or is it a manner of wording.

And thank you @pm18, that was extraordinarily helpful. I did read the chapter in LB, but that was inspiring. Reading old texts to my wife, I found many of those that I would never have thought were bad.

Should be ^, darn smart phone inserted a dis in front of respectful in one [bad] place.

It's how you word it. Joyce Harley said it well in Axe's show. Always keep the finger ppointing at you, not her. Tell her how much you and family are hurting, but don't blame her for anything. As Dr. Harley says, don't count on an apology, we just want the affair to end. You can bug her everydau, but avoid demands, DJs, and AOs.

Do you have the book Love Busters?

Thank you billman21, I did work hard last week. When I first started, I was wondering how I would recognize DJ, but Dr. Harley wrote that chapter well, and intensive study helped and they've become much easier to recognize.

I know what you mean. I think back on conversations of the years with WW, and I realize how disrespectful I was. Others may have another opinion, and certainly other problems, but that chapter was the lynch pin chapter of the whole Love Busters book for me. If you are and can be respectful and use respectful persuasion, then it's REALLY hard to make selfish demands and have angry outbursts. I've found focusing on avoiding being disrespectful goes a long, long way to preventing getting angry.

Yes @BrainHurts, I do have the book. After @pm18's reply last night I read the chapter again.

I also want to add, it's not just learning to be disrespectful, but it's necessary to learn to be respectful. It's much harder to do the other three love busters, dishonesty, independent behavior, and be unwilling to change annoying habits if you truly respect your spouses opinion and feelings, for then you understand the impact of that behavior and if you feel love and kindness, you won't want to do those behaviors.

Excellent observation. That really rings true to me.

My wife told me she noticed the changes in me, and still chooses the other man. It is not easy to keep going. I can understand where some of the things I say may put her off.

But Just before she changed her mind and decided to stay with the other man, she told me straight up, if it were not for him we would have been back together but nothing would have been fixed.

I hold that dearly since she said it. Than she changed her mind. I cannot understand for the life of me why. She was so close, but since they work together... I wish I understood what happened better. She was so close.

I don't remember, their place of work doesn't have a problem with what's going on?

I did not get a response from the emails, and have not yet received anything from the letters I sent on Thursday.

I am sure that what happened is that she saw him and he talked to her and told her more bull that she fell for. The change was remarkably dramatic.

Her texts to me that day:

me 1105am: The pain will be great, be strong and avoid him any way you can. It will come and go.

her 1106am: Obviously it won't be over in a day

me 1106am: Indeed. Enjoy the calm when you get it. Smile a pretty smile. Live the moment happy.

her 1108am: Yeah didn't last seeing him hurts

me 1108am: Do your best to not look at him.

her 1243pm: I'm dropping the kids to you after work I have something i need to do.


We talked on the phone between the last 2 texts there. The plan was for her to get out of work go home and my mom was going to watch them and I was going to help her clean the house.

The thing she needed to do is meet him and he said whatever she needed to hear, cuz she was all "i love him" again.

She's in an active affair.
Why did you tell her "not to look at him?"
Why is she seeing him? At work?
I told you that the 30 day window did not include contact. That is only applicable if they work in like separate departments. Dr. Harley doesn't want them seeing each other for 30 days.

Go to Playerblock and post his name, cell phone number and store number on there. They do not filter like Cheaterville does. He will start getting phone calls from strangers demanding he end the affair.

She said she wanted to end it with him on her own. She said he was lying to her and she did not trust him. She was serious, and then just changed her mind. She was Right there - I had suggested she needed to quit working there. I said not to look at him because she actually asked me to help her end it. I thought I was starting to help her start NC, I even said it would be near impossible if she did not quit working there - then she caved.

Sadly I do not have his phone number.

That's great. I didn't even know about Playerblock until my WW accused me of posting her OM on there. I wish I'd known I could post his phone number on there earlier. I just did it after reading your post. Good stuff.

Is there a "brazen hussy" block too. There needs to be.

Yes! There is and Dr. Harley discussed it on his radio show!
It is www.shesahomewrecker.com

Someone must have told the OM or my wife about the site, or maybe they called him at work idk. She texted me the link to his post and said "You did this"

I said, "yes, I would like him to leave our marriage"

about an hour later this was the reply:

"From now on don't talk to me about anything other than the kids I'm done with you I will enforce the court order if need be regardless of the situation and my decision I have chosen to move on from you."

I did not reply

Just another form of exposure anger, I would guess. Just another excuse for her to do what she wants. You came here for help saving your marriage and this site will help you do that in way that recovery would be very pleasing to your wife (if she actually came out of the fog and did the work) and you would have a happy marriage. There maybe details here she doesn't like being shared (again, exposure), but there is no way you can solve your problems without full honesty and disclosure.

She should (but won't right now) commend you for asking for help saving your marriage and how to change to be the man you need to be for her. I wouldn't change your approach from what you've been doing.

I agree with you 100%. I understand she is mad, she has been hostile through this entire ordeal (save for that two weeks from the trip to the break up- ish). One thing I learned from her during the time we have been together - it infuriates her when I will not argue with her, and she hates when I do not get mad at her.

I know she is mad, and I am ok with it, but I have to back off a bit as there is a court order and that can be a lot of damage. I do not want to give up, and have no plan to. But the consistent anger and rejection from her is difficult to stomach. Especially after that hopeful day where I thought she might have began ending it.

Starting the 19th, she will have 2 weeks off of work, and in January OM is supposed to be there less or not at all - i guess he'll be travelling to other stores or something . i dont know the details. maybe the lack of presence will hit her again.

I think life needs to drop her on her [censored] a bit, and he needs to seriously mess up.

lol the Censor, that's funny.

I know the feeling well. I was quite hopeful this past Saturday when she said that she realized he was bad for her, that even if we get a divorce and she finds someone else, they won't put up with her friendship with him, that he won't give her all of what she needs, that he was very hurtful and abusive to her (doing the things she said I'd done, only many, many times worse), that he was toxic to her life and health, that she was being harassed. No such fortune.

She's afraid of blackmail and further exposure by him and possible other things he might do, though she stopped short of saying he'd do something physical, but that she was very afraid. She hopes that if she strings him along with annoyingly little contact, he'll decide to end it and she'll avoid blowback. I don't see that happening, he's holding on tight to this relationship and he'll just continue to bother and harass her, disrespect her opinion, and make her life miserable. He doesn't think he's done anything wrong in this whole thing: not the affair (which isn't to him), not the abuse to his "best friend", none of it. It's all justified.

I don't doubt he might try something physical given his police record which my grandma said was quite long (the police ran his name and number as part of their investigation and passed on this information to her). I know he's been arrested for numerous bar fights among other things. I don't care at this point, she needs to end it quickly as the best thing for her, full consequences notwithstanding. She made her bed, so to speak, and should deal with the consequences quickly so that her healing can start.

I feel for you. I can see where your hope lies. I will pray for you and her. It is hard to understand how the justifications can make so much sense to them.

My daughter told me the other day, that she prayed that her boyfriend would break her heart so I could come back home. And just as I thought it was happening, he sucked her right back in.

I am staying afloat, but I can feel a tug at my feet. This has got to be the worst pain I have ever endured. But I will endure, because I have faith that some day she is going to look at me and say "You never gave up". I'll reply, "You have no idea". Regardless of our outcome.

My big hope right now is twofold: I cause enough problems for him mostly just by being by my wife's side constantly while not antagonizing the WW and pushing her away that he decides it's not worth it or MIL enforces a No Contact Order and other measures of no contact as a condition for her moving there and she does it, OR she doesn't do it, and we're back in the situation where she's at home and POSOM is angry and abusive again, driving the equation for her that doing nothing is more painful than actually ending contact.

I wish you the best.

My WW absolutely hates my cheaterville post about her OM. She usually cites it as the biggest reason she will never even consider recovering our marriage. She has asked me to take it down countless times. She tells me that her A is over and she still demands I take it down. I just try not to talk about it and tell her that it doesn't matter. The truth is her problem, not that its on the internet.

Yes, Cheaterville is extremely effective and my wife is the same way about her OM.

Cheaterville has extremely good SEO so if you Google OM's name, his Cheaterville post is probably the number 1 result for him, if not in the top 5 or 10.

Not the sort of attention you want when you're applying for a job, for example.

My WW made a stupid move and posted her own name on her OM's cheaterville site. Now she blames me for it coming up when she googles her name.

Wayward fogged out stupidity. Haha!

"My wife is having an affair" . . .I still cannot say it without thinking . . wow wtf....

Ditto.

me: Please tell our children I love them.

her: are you going to see them winter break?

me: of course..

her: ok

me: have a good day wife

her: will you stop doing that

me: what?

her: calling me wife

me: but you are my wife


no reply

I have had a few of these conversations with my WW.

do you have any good shares or suggestions on the best ways to handle them ?

Did I do ok?

if she asks you to stop doing that, then STOP DOING THAT.

in Plan A, do nothing that withdraws love bank units. Do anything that she will allow that will deposit love bank units. That should be your mantra.

She has told you that she does not want you calling her "wife". That means that doing so withdraws LB units. Stop doing it.

And don't give her smart-arsed answers next time. If you want to do this thing, do it properly. If you don't want to do exactly as Dr H prescribes, that's fine - but why post here on MB, showing that you are perplexed at her response to being ticked off?

Both of you: stop having them! The first time she says "don't do that" should be the last time you ever "do that".

No, you absolutely did not. She was silent, but in her head she was saying "not for long".

Sorry, face1, I find that absolutely hilarious, and I could use a good laugh today.

Yeah, me and all her and my families.

She even tries to blame me for hurting her chances of getting another job because an employer might Google her. Funny how that's my fault.

I should ask her if she considered that her fraudulent protection order against me could hurt my future employment. I won't ask her that though.

That was my reaction when she asked, before she filed for D. I wasn't sure if I should suggest it to others. Thanks for clearing that up.

Plan A means you stop debating her. Stop telling her why it's okay for you to do what you are doing that bothers her.

I have been looking at this whole thing from my perspective. Even when I try to see her perspective, I was still looking through my own thoughts and my own mind.

I was talking to my mother today, and I had a moment where I realized something horrible. I did not just loose my wife, I lost my best friend. But then I noticed something about that. "I" lost "my" friend. Then I asked myself, who was I to her; queue the epiphany.

I have argued with myself saying that I have always been there for her, that I was her husband, that she was my wife, and this was my family. Then I realized these are all "I"'s and "my"'s.

I did not behave or act as her friend. I was a man she lived with who called himself her husband, nothing more. I always told her she was my home; but I did not give her any reasons to call me her home. I did not give her a place to put her heart.

By realizing this, I think I know now more of why she is so mad and hostile toward me. Why she saw and clammed up. She saw the man she wanted all those years and all she sees in me is disappointment. "How can I be happy with him? I am not home with him. Why now after all this tie does he figure it out when I decided no more".

I did not give her ... a friend, a home.

That's really good stuff Billman.

I feel much the same way about my marriage. I failed to truly see my wife's perspective. I could never get myself out of the way.

I had a similar epiphany while reading Love Busters the other night. Have you read it?

I am still reading it, i'm on the third read now. I never thought I would see my self as much the bad guy as I do now. I only wish that this affair was not in the way of reconciliation. I see my self so much clearer now.

Some of my hope died tho. Why in the world would she want to be with me again, after I put her through so much. I mean I thought I understood what to be sorry for, but not even being a friend - for years. I can forgive me in time, but how could she - and then still give another chance . . . what could possible motivate her to do that.

It's fantastic, billman12, that you now recognize this. It means you are making progress becoming a man she would want to be with. You had to go through this (the understanding) as part of the process of becoming a better person.

It's as Dr. Harley says, the more you understand your spouse's feelings and interests, the more you understand and appreciate why your spouse thinks and behaves the way he or she does... and you'll be less likely to be disrespectful in your efforts to change behavior and attitudes. You have no chance to persuade her to do anything if you don't understand and respect her perspective.

She became your friend once and fell in love with you once already. What she needs you've already provided that to her before, and she knows it. She needs to see that you are changing those things that destroyed that love, and I see it in this realization and the work you're putting into your love busters. The only way she'll see it, is if you actually change. Keep up the good work.

Don't lose hope when you are making the progress you absolutely must make. She may not eventually decide to reconcile, but these changes are good for you (and any future relationship partner you might have), no matter what, and she'll definitely not reconcile without those changes. I know it hurts, that it's hard to sometimes not lose hope, that it's sometimes difficult to find the motivation, and that patience is difficult in times like these (I sure have to keep reminding myself these things every day).

Yeah, I had the same a few weeks ago going through the DJ chapter. I (and probably we all) were so certain we were right in things, that we knew what was best, and trampled and disrespected our wives' opinions and feelings.

Like I said a few days ago in some thread, respect is really the key to this whole thing. With it, we understand and know our spouses feelings and opinions. Understanding those, we understand what will hurt them and because we love them we don't want to do those things. Understanding our spouses feelings and opinions makes known to use what they need and loving them makes us want to meet those needs. Then we add in a focus on finding solutions for ourself, and only implementing those solutions, that meet those needs that we are also pleased with and we're there. The rest of MB is tools to help us maintain focus and accountability (i.e. all the worksheets, like the UA worksheet).

I asked my wife this morning how ahe felt and if she was mad, via text:

Her: Nope I'm not I'm done being angry I'm going to be there for my child the best way I can, I'm not running from my emotions I have made the choice to not be with you and I am ok with that I also recognize the mistakes we have both made I choose to be better for my kids and that does not mean with you....so go ahead say I'm breaking up our family ok I ultimately have chosen that, I do not want to be with you I have moved on from you
I'm not living in the past anymore I'm moving forward
You are the father of my children that is all you are to me and that is all you have been to me for a long time, I am grateful to you for giving me three of the best gifts I could have ever gotten thank you
I wish you the best as well I hope that you find peace in your heart and that God can help you along the road

Me: I am sorry that your thank you for your best gifts is a goodbye.

Have you had any response from her employers about the registered letters you sent them?

I have heard extremely similar statements from my WW. Don't let her foggy words discourage you. The way I see it, at least with my WW, is that every time her conscience starts to eat at her she responds with some dramatic statement to me about how she has moved on. It's almost like she is trying to convince herself more than me.

No I have had no response to the letters at all.

I was thinking almost entirely the same thing. I have no regard for the fact that as of now I am sure this is how she feels. Once this affair ends, I am sure her brain will give her different thoughts.

If they were sent via registered mail you should be able to verify that they were delivered and who signed for them. You should be able to get a copy of that information, I think. I don't know if it will ever be helpful to have this info documented but I would document everything possible.

So how are you going to follow this up?

I stupidly did not send them registered mail. As soon as you asked I realized I went to the post office and handed them to the clerk, and left. I have reprinted the and first thing in the AM tomorrow I am sending them registered mail.

I believe I let my anxiousness get the best of me the day I mailed them and it slipped my mind.

Send then Certified Mail, Return Receipt Requested.

That way, you will have the persons name who signed for it. It is even better to list Attention To: Mr. So and So etc...

LTL

You can also add "Restricted Delivery" to certified mail. That will mean that only the person it is addressed to can sign for it. The mail man is supposed to ask for their ID. Might be more than you need but it is an option.

I believe I need to start plan B. I don't feel I have another option.

The town I live in has no jobs. I do not make enough at the job I have to survive. I am considering taking a trip back to NY with my family and earning some better money there (temporary intentions).

She is hostile, and continues to talk to me in anger and rage, no matter how nice I try to be. It is tearing me apart.

The only person I could use as an IM is my sister, the instructions state no close family members, but I have no doubt my sister would be neutral.

I cannot reason with her, everything I say is a lie, everything I say is wrong (texting, haven't spoken to her in nearly 3 weeks). And I fight tears every time even though I know it's crap what she says, and I have to fight not coming back angry.

I have to find myself and I cannot do it living where I am, Sadly that means I need to get away and figure out who I am. I need whatever advice and guidance I can get please.

Have you been to a doctor to get antidepressants? A general practitioner can prescribe them.

No I have not. I do not have a doctor. I am not depressed to the point I cannot live. When said I cannot survive or who I am, I mean that I have no goals or dreams beyond my wife and family. I have to find who I am without her. I am not suicidal or unable to function in any way that would require meds or therapy.... Yet lol.

It's not for severe depression. They have some meds that will just help keep you calm when you're making decisions like this. I don't have a doctor, either. I just made an appointment with one I found in the phone book. He prescribed the meds when I told him what was going on.

Others will have better advice for you. I was just concerned because of the tone of your post. I wish I had some advice for you, but alas, I'm in the same predicament, and who knows where I'll end up?

I think I have a good understanding of how you feel Billman. My WW is unbelievably cruel to me. I have been on anti-depressants for almost three months now. I was never at a point where I was hiding in the bedroom with the lights off, drinking hard liquor, and learning how to tie a noose.

The ADs have been a big help. Forget any stigma you think they carry with them. In your situation, anybody should get help. Don't make things harder than they have to be. ADs are a tool to help you through depression just like a screw driver is a tool to help you turn screws. Sure you could probably figure out some other way to turn a screw but why not just use the screwdriver?

@face1 are you trying to say that Plan B is a bad idea and I need to try and keep going with Plan A? It is so hard to have any kind of normalcy while talking to her. Here is a simple text convo we had today:

Me: I would like to see our kids tomorrow between 10am and 2pm

her: you had a conversation with our daughter the other day that upset her and I'm just supposed to say ok yeah you can take the kids ...You are either in their life the right was or not at all.

(the conversation was my daughter asking me questions and me giving her honest, vague answers)

Me: I understand. I would like to see our kids tomorrow between 10am and 2pm


This is what I mean. Simple questions turn into huge things. I try not to let them, but I cannot stand this....hatred. I have done nothing but be nice, and she is so cruel - I cannot even understand where it comes from.I seriously just don't even want to talk to her.

I was just trying to point out that using ADs doesn't mean you're crazy or suicidal.

As far as plan A or plan B, it is up to you how much crap you can really put up with before needing plan B.

I can tell you that the text exchange you just posted is very similar to communications I have had with my WW.

My WW has convinced the stepson that I raised like he was my own for 6 years to openly say he hates me. The boy is 12 now. She has made him believe that I have done a terrible thing to OM for exposing the A. The other night, she screamed at me over the phone and told me that I am a terrible person and I have only become worse since Dday. 2 months ago, she called the police on me and pretended to be scared of me in an attempt to get me arrested(she has tried this 3 times in total). All I really had done was ask her calmly to show me a doctor's note. The next day she filed an order for protection citing zero incidents of threats or violence and I was removed from my home and stripped of my 2nd amendment rights without due process. She actually told the police that she was frightened of "a look in my eyes"(HA!, WTF!).

WW will say and do anything to protect her affair. It is her addiction. I know it is hard to hear this kind of cruelty from your own wife but remember, this is not your wife. It is WW, a wayward who has been possessed by aliens. Occasionally you may see your wife through the wayward fog but for the most part, you will only see WW. If you can keep in mind that her cruelty comes from her desperation to hold on to her fantasy life with OM you should be able to let her hurtful comments roll off of you like water off a ducks back.

Don't get sucked in to her accusations. Sometimes the truth is upsetting and sometimes you have to tell people(even your kids) things that upset them. You know this and so does WW. She is only saying things like this to hurt you and justify her affair. Don't let her convince you of her foggy reality. She is in no position to tell you how to behave or what to believe.

Don't worry about what she says. Don't let her negative crap pull you in with it. Stay above it man. You are not what she says you are.

On another note, I think you did well by not responding to her threatening to keep you out of your kids lives. It would have been easy to contradict her or argue with her after that text.

I thank you for that, it means quite a bit.

OMG yes, i was SO ready to reply with - and having an affair and breaking up a family is "the right thing to do" - what a good mommy - and so much a better parent than I.

But I knew not only was that the wrong thing to say, but also she would just come back argumentative, and get defensive and blah blah..i bit my tongue because I love her and accept her....childish reality...well not accept - it is disgusting, but I understand it...too much i am afraid.

That's what kills me. All the hope knowing she is in a pool of crap and calls it silk, knowing that there is a fair chance she will recognize it as crap someday - and finally wake up. But holding this hope is killing my soul.

Keep your head up. WW cannot define who you are. That is entirely up to you. With her or without her.

Don't forget that self-care is part of plan A.

I should point out that I am not superman. During the terrible circumstances I described I was up and down with hope and whether or not I was willing to hold on to it. Don't be surprised if interactions with WW push you along the "emotional roller-coaster"(cliche but what the hell).

It has taken me a while to easily take the insults and brush them off. At this point I find myself holding back laughter at my WW's inconsistency and hypocrisy. Sometimes it still gets to me though.

Another cliche: what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. If WW never recognizes the crap she is swimming in, how much stronger will you be for having fought through her crap and trying to save her even while she only tried to pull you under?

In the case she drowns in her crap and never helps you pull her out. You can escape it. She cannot.

Agreed with all of this. While my situation hasn't been as severe and painful as most BH's on the board right now, I can definitely say that having her around can, at times, be worse than having her not in the house. Having to see and face what's happening all the time I'm home, being open to her "barbs" many hours of the day can be quite painful, and there are times I find myself driving to work with a few tears in my eyes.

I haven't gotten ADs yet, but I have taken some supplements that in a lot of studies have shown to be effective at helping raise mood. Some days I can tell when it's been too many hours since I took some, and lately I've had to take less. Exercise, and talking with friends, family, and a few co-workers has helped tremendously too. My cell phone expense in December was not pretty.

With practice, I've also found it easier to ignore WW snipes at me, almost instantly reminding myself: 1) it's not really her saying those things; 2) her opinion will eventually change as the affair ends and fog lifts OR I won't care at that point, if, for example, she doesn't want to spend time with my family or friends, as I won't want her too.

Definitely a "roller coaster", even sometimes minute-to-minute.

I'm glad you mentioned exercise pm.

I exercise all the time and I forget how much it helps. If I wasn't doing it I would have probably lost my mind by now.

This was the text I got this morning in response to my wanting to see the kids:

"You can call them today, I don't trust you and you haven't given me any reason to trust you. This whole situation all you did was focus on me and not the kids. You should have been there for them the way a father is suppose to be, and if you were emotionally incapable if doing that then you should have worked on yourself first and communicated that to me I would have understood."

She is right that I had focused on her quite a bit. But within the past month this is not true. And as far as her "understandong" she is incapable. I have tried time and time again to explain...anything.

I did not reply to this text. Because what I would want to say would be wrong.

Vague is not being honest.

I understand. But too much honesty for my 10 year old scares me a bit.

I forget your situation, you seeing your kids should not be optional or at her discretion.
She is punishing you and using the kids as a lever/weapon against you.
This is despicable and you should not tolerate it. Your kids need their father.

What, if anything has been signed by a judge in regards to custody/visitation? If nothing, it is past time to consult an attorney.

I agree. Looking into that right now as a matter of fact.

I hate to say it but I will...your response would have ticked off ANY mother. It appears dismissive of your child's upset.

After years of dismissing your wife, she doesn't want you doing that to DD. You may see her behavior as cruel but I see her being protective of DD.

Perhaps your vague answers upset your daughter. Whatever happened...think about her instead of yourself.

What were the questions, and what were the honest, vague answers?

Why is mommy so mad at you?
Because I made lots of mistakes with her and you kids during our marriage.

Mommy said this was your fault and I don't know what side to choose.
You don't have to choose, you say and do what you feel.

Is it all your fault?
No, but mommy and I have to find our own faults, I cannot point out hers regardless that she points out mine.

Mommy's friend makes her happy and I want to meet him.
I don't think that is a good idea and I will tell mommy that. He is hurting our family and not being a good friend.


These are just some of the things mentioned. I cannot remember them all. WW said that my D was upset by what I had said, but I have not heard from my D at all so I have no idea what she is really feeling. I could guess but I am not good at that.

The reason I said vague, is because I could have answered much more, but I do not know how much she can handle, or what mommy has already told her.

Are there any good books I can get that will better equip me to speaking to my children about this situation.

I think your wife is trying to manipulate you when she says that, my $.02. You've made your own mistakes but she's no angel either or else she wouldn't be wayward. Reasons but no excuses for an affair.

Keep working on eliminating LBs but don't accept responsibility for her choices. And I don't think your response to WW was overly dismissive, her talk was fog babble. Maybe add "I'm sorry, I didn't realize she was upset", but honestly I think your wife is lying when she says that.

I agree with oyu. I aslo know that Grammie has told my daughter that God was against us staying together and he wants mommy to be happy in the "relationship" she is in. Mommy has also told the children that she hates me and I am a F*** up. And of course that all this is my fault. I have told my oldest this is untrue, and I can see in her eyes she understands or at least accepts my side of that story (never bad mouthed mommy). But I also know my daughter is afraid of mommy yelling at her when she tried to talk to mommy - so wife will only hear what she wants anyway.

I'd focus on keeping your side of the street clean (Plan A) and conduct yourself honorably towards them. What you just said tells me you are dealing with people who have difficulty being honest and you can't control that. But it is extremely frustrating.

Keep improving and doing what is right. The contrast in behavior will speak volumes if you can keep up a good Plan A, even if you end up moving on. You are willing to admit your faults and try to improve yourself and that is half the battle. Don't give up on that.

I agree with axslinger 100%. You can only control you.

I know WW can make it feel like everyone is against you. Don't forget that there is an entire world outside of her fog that won't be fooled by her garbage. This forum is an excellent example of that.

Indeed. And I agree also 100%. It is just unfortunate that I do not have better means to handle the situation with the children. I am going to court in the morning to find about visitation and an order preventing OM near them.

Do you have an attorney?

No i do not. I am looking into legal aid, but I fear I make too much. I was thinking of trying to find a student at the local college who might be willing to get his hands dirty. Unless you have another option?

Don't go to court without an attorney.
It is not a Do It Yourself project sir.
The decisions of the court affect the lives of you and your children.
Get an attorney. College students cant help you in court either.