My story

Background

*Please excuse lack of use of acronyms� not used to them and can�t find a document here to tell me what each one is.

I am 33yrs old, husband is 30yrs old, we have a 3 year old daughter. Married for 11 years, together for almost 15. Relationship was pretty amazing for first 4-5 years (including 1-2 years into marriage). Life stress, lack of meeting each others emotional needs made last 6-7 years unfufilling/lacking.

10 months ago (June 2011) I began an affair (physical and emotional) with a co worker. The affair last approximately 5-6 weeks until we were confronted by my husband (Mid August 2011). At that time I committed to ending the affair and initiated no contact with OM. We both committed to counselling and working on recovering. I made it to about week 7 with no contact with OM (although my husband did not believe this). Unfortunately I was still completely deceived (I think you call this �fog�) and thought I was in love with this person � something I am pretty embarrassed about now. So contact was re initiated by me in October 2011. Physical contact was reinitiated in November 2011 when my husband went away for a week. On November 30th, after rediscovering the affair, my husband confronted me and threw me out of the house.

The following day he relocated himself and our daughter (without my permission) to our hometown. In the following few days we communicated and agreed that a move for us all would be the next best step in terms of being in a city where we had family support. However he was also very clear that we were now separated.

I spent the next few weeks staying at friends and family and occansionally the OM�s house, in a state of shock, confusion and grief. I very stupidly continued my relationship with the OM, thinking that this was the best thing. I thought that my husband was better off without me and was deluded in thinking that I would be �settling down� with OM.

In early February I �saw the light�. Not entirely sure how this happened but I know it was partly because through some miracle I was drawing closer to God, praying, reading my bible and really seeking him. All of a sudden I knew that OM was not the person I should be with and the relationship was a very destructive one. I ended things with him and have blocked his email address from all of mine, and his phone number from my cell. This time I have made it very clear that I want nothing to do with him, and have taken every precaution possible to avoid any contact. I have some things that I�d left at his house which I was originally going to go with a friend to pick up, however the thought of having to see him makes me want to vomit so I�ve decided that my �things� are not important at all.

Where am I at now?

I�m still pressing into God and trying to hand everything over to him daily. In march I decided that my marriage/family were worth fighting for and I would do anything to save it. I made that clear to my husband. Unfortunately in the time I spent being deluded with this OM my husband let go of me and has grieved and made considerable gains in �moving on�. He has even told me he is looking forward to dating. The pain and grief I feel about this is the worst so far in my entire life (I spent 30mins literally screaming in the car on the drive home after he told me this). And ironically I feel more in love with him that I did the last 6-7 years. I realised that perhaps it wasn�t irony at work though. When this first happened last year I tried to turn to God, and my main prayer was that I would fall back in love with my husband. So perhaps He has answered my prayers in that regard.

What I need from you?

Please help me navigate my way through this mess. I�m desperate for reconciliation even though my husband has categorically told me to �move on� and he sees no hope for our future. I�m unwilling to give up fighting for this� I know that this may end in divorce, but I also know he cannot file for divorce for another 18 months, so until then, I will do everything possible.

Can you please provide any advice on how to �fight� for this. It�s all very good for me to say it, but what exactly do I do when my husband is so despondent and has hardened his heart to me. Any stories from other people in similar situations would be appreciated. Particularly those where the women was the �offender�. I�m feeling very alone right now and it�s very hard being the women who has hard the affair because all of the material in books and on the internet seems to be geared towards the man as the offender.

I have incredible support from my husbands parents (pastors of local church), who are praying for us and also believing for reconciliation. They have advised that I should keep working on healing myself � from the things that led me to having the affair and to just encourage small interactions with him, perhaps dinner as a family with our daughter.

However, with him dating being on the near horizon (he has already met a single mum who he has been spending time with), I am feelng very desperate.

Thoughts?

Welcome to Marriage Builders. Here read this Acronyms and Abbreviations

Now I'll go back and read your story.

thanks for the link to acronyms BrainHurts

So you were here in Sept 2011. What have you implemented from MB?

Can you please ask the mods to merge your two threads?
What just compensation and EP's have you done?

Read this Recovery Guide for Wayward wives

There was no real compensation in the first instance because i was completely deluded. And now, as outlined above, we are seperated and he is unwilling to accept any compensation from me.

EP's? Can you explain? examples?

Listen to these radio clip of a WW who is a serial cheater.
Radio clip on WW serial cheater
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4

What boundaries have you put in place?

Extraordinary Precautions by HerPapaBear

Things you will write down and promise to your BH what you will do to protect him from any future abuse to him by you.

Why should he give you another chance since you trampled his heart once and then did it again?

What's different about you now then before? You found MB back in September and you learned what?

Not words, but ACTIONS. There's a ton of experienced people that will sniff you out. If you try and fool them how do you expect your BH to believe you?

Have you drank anymore? That radio clip the WW also has a problem with alcohol and Dr. H told her to get to an all female AA group.

Please answer the questions if you truly want help.

What have you implemented from Sept when you found MB?

Did you take Melodylane's advice and read SAA?

I hope your silence means you're reading all the wonderful information on here?

BlackViolet,

When he left with your daughter, you didn't go to court to order her back to the marital home, you went and stayed with OM (!). You not only didn't fight for your husband, but you didn't fight for your young child, you chose your work boyfriend over your FAMILY. You have a giant hill to climb here.

You are in a rush now. Why? Ah, because he is on the verge of dating another woman (which I would 2x4 him for as well but he's not here). Your fantasy hasn't panned out and now you realize that you can't just waltz back in again.

At a bare minimum, you can prove your sincerity by quitting your job where this man works.

Are you here to reunite your family

I don't believe she took any advice from her 1st thread as it was written in September and she resumed the affair shortly after.

That's why I keep asking her.

Hmmm, another drive-by WS? If only THEY were on here as much as us BS's!

When was the last time you saw or spoke or emailed with the OM?

What happened in his marriage? Isn't he married?

Thanks to those who have replied. Brainhurts - the silence is because i am on the other side of the world and was asleep :-)

Ahhh another 'drive-by ws'?!?! Very welcoming :P But yes, i can see how some people would do this sort of thing. However, i don't plan to be one of those as I am committed to saving my marriage.

I will have to go back through the posts and answer the questions when I get to work but...

MelodyLane - Last time I spoke/emailed OM was approx 5 weeks ago. He wasn't married, his long term relationship split up over this.

He doesn't work at my work anymore, and had moved on just after the affair begun.

Thanks, will post again soon.

Yay, BlackViolet, glad to see you here again! Don't take it personally. I have seen quite a few WS come here, post a couple times and then they are gone LOL. And yes, I personally know one.
Welcome and congrats on wanting to commit.

Thanks Rocketqueen... appreciate your post.

Now to go back and reply to the previous posts...

Thanks I will listen to these tonight.

Boundries... as oulined above, blocking OM from emails/phone. Boundries for this occuring with another man? - No male friendships, No alcohol.

So what just compensation have you given your BH?

What EP's have you written and done?

Transparency? Can you move back in with him?

Why should he believe you THIS time?

What have you implemented from MB since you found MB back in Sept?

Hi BrainHurts, yes, I have to admit, while I learned some great things in Sept from this site and the Book Surviving an Affair, I didn't put everything in place possible. Some things but not everything - hence the relapse.

And yes, he really shouldn't give me another chance. Except I'm hoping to prove i'm worthy of one last chance now that i'm completely committed and surrended to God

Thanks Alis. Yes, I am here to save/reunite my family, at any cost.

No, I did not go and stay with the OM, I spent some nights there over the proceeding month or so. No, I did not fight for my marriage/family like i should have in December. I was completely deluded/fogged into thinking it was over and this OM was my future. I did not go to court for two reasons. 1, within the first few days of them departing my husband and I spoke and decided that we would ALL relocate asap. And i also knew that my daughter being with family was the best thing for the immediate furture as neither of us were in a state to properly care for her. The second reason is that I live in a country where 'going to court' is not really a common response (ie. we have no litigation process for personal injury - rather, a government scheme that pays for this). I had no experience in these kind of matters and no desire to make the situation with my husband worse by fighting over our child. I absolutely knew that because of my terrible actions, them moving was the best thing.

(As an aside, the truama and grief of having my child taken away from me played a strong part in why I did not deal with 'things' in the first few months).

The reason i did not quit my job immediatley and follow was because all of the advice I received was to not make rash decisions at this time. With my husband being clear that we were seperated, I knew that I needed a job to pay for my half of supporting my child and also supporting myself.

In retrospect, this is something I probably should have done, 5 months later I am still struggling to get permantly relocated as jobs in our small hometwon are scarce. This is not for lack of trying though, I have applied for approx 12 positions and only had one interview :-(

I am now going to read about the EP's from HerPapaBear's posts and let you know what I have done in regards to this.

Thanks all

No, I can not move back in with him (he is currently living with his parents). We are seperated and he has hardened his heart towards me.

Transparency - he does not wish to know exactly what is going on in my life because he has seperated himself emotionally from me and is guarding his heart from future hurt. He is not willing to try again atm.

Compensation? - I will go and read up on what I can offer him and see what would be appropriate at this point.

EPs, bout to read up on that to and will write them on here first :-)

Will your BH come to MB so we can help him?

This forum needs more WW's like this one (not saying there needs to be MORE WW's .. just if they are .. they should be repentant like this one is) .... I can feel she really wants to make ammends. However .. one can not blame her hubby if he chooses not to accept her back and work on it ... But I do pray he softens his heart and gives her the chance.

MNG

Repentant this thread or the thread back in Sept when she found MB and still went back to her OM and now her BH took her DD and left? Now she's worried because her BH is thinking of dating?

Hi BrainHurts,

No i was not what I would call 'fully/honestly' repentant back in Sept. I am now however, and yes, I am gutted that I may have left it too late. However, I would regret not fighting for my marriage now. Even if this doesn't work and he dates, and files for divorce, I am committed to doing anything and everything to compensate.

I am willing to be strong in my committment and go through the pain of him dating... holding out any small hope I have for future reconciliation.

Thanks MrNiceGuy for your understanding and encouragement.

Will your WH come here to MB so we can help him?

What about you writing Dr. Harley? What EP's have you given him?

Found some radio clips similar to your situation.

The WW kept going back to her OM and now her and her BH are divorced. Hope they help.
Radio clip of WW trying to save her M after her divorce
Segment #2
Segment #3

I don't think he is in a space to come here... yet. He was not even willing to back in Sept :-( I think this is partly pride but now it's about him being completely seperate from me and having 'moved on'.

EP's - I didn't get that far back in Sept/Oct last year. Am willing to give him some now (working on that list now in between work :P) but I doubt he is in a place to be receptive to these. He's very much of the mindset that it's 'too little too late'.

Listen to these when you get a chance.

Thanks! loving these radio clips!

Love the radio show it is a plethora of help from the good Harleys themselves.

Tell me what you think of the clips. Can you email the radio show?

Am listening to the latest clips you posted and it's very very similar to my situation.

I could email them. I'm not in the US though...

Also was looking on the website to see if Dr. Harley can provide email counselling but doesn't appear so.

oooh except for the pre marriage bits!

Yes when I heard the clips I thought it was very similar to your situation except they are actually divorced.

The coaching center does phone coaching and we've had people from NZ and such phone coach with them. I'm sure they can work something with you.

You would do this for the radio show. Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com.

Have you written an apology letter to your BH?

I guess not an official one. I've apologised via txt and facebook etc but have realised that's not enough or 'proper'. I will begin drafting one.

I suppose my reluctance is the constant fear of rejection - that has in fact happened in the last few serious interactions we have had.

But I guess i have to harden up and face that potential rejection regardless as I am committed to doing ANYTHING and EVERYTHING

Post your letter here.

Read this Recovery Guide for Wayward Wives

BV, I'm liking your attitude so far, but we will be a bit wary and tough on you and pressure you to prove yourself.

You'll need that though, it'll toughen you up for the uphill task of proving yourself to BH.

I would get your EPs lined up, (post them here first) and send them as part of an apology letter to your BH.

You can't show transparency as someone barred from his home but you can OFFER him transparency if he should ever want it. Being offered choices mean a lot to a BS who had their marriage ripped away with no consulatation. You should also stress that you would understand his choice to not give you a chance. Just offering him choices will be some compensation for the time you gave him none.

One way you could offer him transparency is to give him the link to this thread. If he retains any lingering interest or simple curiosity, he'll read along. But its pressure free as he doesn't have to tell you he's doing it. If this site is for him, then he may start posting - again his choice.

Would you be willing to offer him a polygraph to show transparency and truthfulness?

A postnup in which he gets everything should you divorce due to any future adultery?

Have you ever offered him an NC letter that he can send the OM?

Are you a fellow brit, by chance?

Thank you IndieGirl. And yes, I am ready to be 'toughened up'!

I don't want people to feel sorry for me, I guess sometimes it just feels very lonely and I want some understanding from people. I appreciate all the support from here so far.

Nope not a fellow brit :P A New Zealander :-)

I love your idea about offering him transparency if he ever chooses to try again.

It's been very hard knowing the 'how' in fighting for my marriage. Above all I want to respect his choices to gaurd his heart.

I will keep working on my Ep's, apology letter and post them here.

Did you write a NC letter to your OM and let your BH read and send?
No Contact Samples

This was done back in Sept. Has not been done since.

I have let my husband know that I no longer have anything to do with OM but that was as far as I thought was appropriate since we were seperated.

To be honest, i'm reluctant to send OM anything. I don't want anything to do with him and because i've already blocked him from everything I feel that sending a letter is a contradiction to everything i've done to rid him from my life.

I cannot express how much the thought of this person makes me feel sick.

I guess I could write a NC letter for my husband to send if he wishes to...

Here are the EP's I have come up with so far;

(eek feel a little nervous about posting this, doesn't feel like enough)

� No male friendships where at all possible
� No intimate conversation with men
� Quit alcohol for good and attend female only AA
� Facebook � would create a joint account if we reconciled.
� Will allow access to my phone/all email accounts whenever requested by my husband.
� Be accountable for my day by providing access to work diary.

I realise this is more personal than example NC letters of EP's but does anyone know of any example apology letters?

Actions are what your BH needs right now. If you write the NC and send it to your BH and tell him it's his choice to send it or not.

Actions to prove to your BH you're serious this time. It's your job to protect him now.

Okay, this is kind of bothersome to me. Why do you need examples of apology letters? This isn't an adultery exposure letter or FB letter we're talking about here.

If you really have the remorse you claim to have on this board then a letter of apology shouldn't be something you need help with.

Wow thanks for that You are correct, I don't need help. But my insecurity and fear of getting it wrong made me think I needed some examples.

Funny cause as I was hitting submit i thought i might get a reply like that... I'm just so terrified of pushing him further away that i want to do everything right.

Sincerity and radical honesty is never wrong, no matter how much it may hurt initially.

It's a pretty simple concept.

BV,
Welcome to MB. From one WW to another this site can save you if you make every effort to follow the steps. No matter what choices your husband makes stick with this program and make yourself a better, stronger person. Listen to all of the advice given.

I don't want to stir the pot and I may be thinking this because of my own situation, but do you have any suspicion that your BH might already be involved with someone else?

Why would she need help?

Because the apology letter would likely have rationalizations and excuses. A peer review allows it to be vetted and her mindset will be open to the forum.

So; write one and post it for vetting.

If I am reading this right, you ended things with OM in Feb. Why did you have contact with him 5 weeks ago?




If you have only "blocked" his email and phone then you have not taken every precaution. He can easily call or email you from another phone/email address. You should change your phone number and email address if you are serious about never hearing from him again. Did you two communicate via FB or any other means?

If she has rationalizations and excuses for her behavior, then that would show me that her motives for this "apology letter" are self serving for justifying said actions.

If she is truly as repentant as she claims to be, then she shouldn't need a whole lot of help.

JMO

Thanks HoldHerHand, brilliant reason for posting it up. Yes, i've already in my head been drafting (will start of paper over the weekend) and found myself rationalizing - not acceptable.

Thanks, i will try and get the courage up to post it once it is drafted.

Um, yes you are right, but sometimes rationalization is part of an automatic response, built by years of being selfish. I'm learning to NOT be self serving... and it's not going to happen overnight. What I can do alongside this is pray that God will speed my new ways of thinking/behaving and by his grace and power I will become the selfless person i need to be in my marriage.

These auto pilot responses DO NOT mean that I am not truely repentant.

Thanks SusieQ - the contact i had with him approx 5 weeks ago was initiated by him, wanting to see me or talk to me, I declined him and it was only after that last lot of contact from him that I blocked him from emails etc. He is blocked from my FB account too. Being blocked from my emails - as far as i am aware - means i will never receive anything from him. I no longer have the home phone number he knew as we have sold the house and moved on. He does not know where i live or any new phone numbers.

Hi FifteenYears,

I don't know for sure that he isn't 'dating' someone. He has told me that he isn't, but that he's looking forward to it.

He is spending time with a single mum who has kids the same age as our daughter, he says it is to make friends with people who have kids the same age etc. (I was always the one who did this in the past so i suppose he feels some responsibility now that he has shared custody).

But yes, i suspect that this women would be the first he would officially date. I even suspect he has been introduced to her by our mutual christian friends.

I get that.

My point is having things vetted helps US to help HER to learn to use radical honesty, to eliminate selfish demands and disrespectful judgments, and to shine light on areas that need MB tuning.

Most people don't have these tools. If they did, they wouldn't need MB now, would they?

BV,

I would change all your emails so he can't get through. Blocking doesn't always work.

Here's some more help with the letter. Unfaithful lurker a gift

Goodness, how much do I LOVE this response!! And, HHH, I do see what you are saying. I simply took offense to having to need help writing an apology letter for something that ripped her husband's heart to shreds. That , IMO, should come from the heart and from the soul.

The way I look at things, that shouldn't need a whole lot of assistance.

That's all I meant

Thanks TigerWes :-)

Thanks BrainHurts,

I will look into changing my email addresses. I have been told that this will not be easy for my work one though, and virtually impossible to change my phone number! Stupid. Since I am desperately seeking another job hopefuly that issue will resolve itself soon.

Did you not see that I addressed this when I posted to you?



Blocking is a bare minimum. It isn't enough.

Oh gosh SusieQ!!! Apologies i've only just realised exactly what you meant!! OMGosh very true. Right, new emails/phone numbers will be initiated over the next few days.

I'm so exhausted today (walked into a clear glass door this morning) no wonder that went completely over my head!

Here's another excellent article from Dr. Harley.
Recovery After an Affair
I know you have a lot of homework from all of us.

Are you going to write Dr. Harley?

Thats ok, I'm very open and willing to do all the 'homework' that's been suggested :-)

Yes, I think I will. I'm not sure if he responds to people and what he could offer though? I'm certainly not in a financial position to pay for any counselling via phone or the internet options.

I'm currently paying to see a great female Christian counsellor who is very experienced with marriages etc. She has recently counselled a couple where the wife had the affair, and now their marriage is better than before the affair.

Email them at the radio show.

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com.

And thanks, thats an excellent article, id read it before. Pity i didn't adhere strictly to it last year.

Which has put me in the unfortunate position of now not being able to give undivided attention, be honest etc.

Can you ask him out on dates? Take him lunch to his job? Take dinner to him and your DD?

Got to go catch a plane, will reply later tonight or tomorrow :-)

Hmpf. Certain aspects of a recovered marriage might be better yes, but I'll bet that if you asked the betrayed spouses in those recovered marriages if they prefer the adultery did not happen in the first place, the answer would be a resounding YES, each and every time.

Adultery is quite possibly the worst, worst, WORST possible abuse that one spouse can do to another in a committed relationship.

Recovered marriages (truly recovered) appear to me to be better than most marriages where an affair never took place.

I can count on one hand marriages which get it right first time without ever making the mistake. Actually, I can only think of my parents and the Harleys.

I dont know any other marriages which use 'trust but verify' POJA and RH and making time for dates as a matter of course.

However the gifts of a good recovery never take away the scar of infidelity, which is what i think you mean MiM.

Does your Christian counsellor use these MB concepts BV? What does she think of no opposite sex friendships, Just Compensation, RH, POJA and never fully trusting your spouse but applying 'trust but verify'?

This will help.
How To Find a Good Marriage Counselor

I asked him out to dinner several weeks ago and he declined :-(

We have shared dinners together at his parents house with the family, but not just the 3 of us yet.

I'm not sure if she's heard of Marriage builders but will ask when i see her next of the 11th. Arggh seems so blinkin far away!

I'm trying to understand a bit about your situation. You said your H moved back to your home town with your child...how far away is that? Do you have family you could live with there? What are you doing in order to provide for your daughter and have a relationship with her? Could you just leave your job, go back to the hometown, and with family help rebuild there? You have already sold your home, correct? It seems like staying where you are it is going to be very difficult to show your H you are repentant and (more important to me in some ways, at this point since you've doubly betrayed and he may not be interested), to have a strong, mature relationship with your daughter, even if she is not in your custody.

BV, getting back to the apology letter(s), may I make a few suggestions, as the recipient of several of the most effective notes of this type I've ever heard of? (I kept them, and have just re-read them.)

Firstly, do NOT make it one massive, all-encompassing tome of regret. In your first note, which will cover the biggest item, you can casually reference the fact that this is the initial one of many. The reason is based on concepts related to Stalin's cynical observation that "One death is a tragedy; one million deaths is mere statistics." Your BH's mind will not focus on ten, twenty, thirty regrets from you in a single note. And you WANT him to focus on what's in your heart, as relayed through what's on the paper. So write (send) a letter a day for weeks, if necessary. Into each one dissect and expostulate on ONE element of your sorrow.

And here's the real key focus to maintain: You're not going to be as effective apologizing just for your actions, but for the impact on HIM. As an example, in one of her notes, my bride apologized for leading me to believe, through her actions, that she, and our children, were not grateful for the things I had done to provide for them, for a quarter-century; that I would forever regret devoting the time and toil to making their life enjoyable. (As a beneficial by-product, this BH-orientation virtually precludes any "justification" slips.)

Think about these, okay?

Ask him again and again and do not make the gap grow to several weeks. Call him daily, ask about how he is doing, what's his day been like. Make your calls to him about him. You have every right to call him, ask him, etc, you are still his wife.

You said his parents are also hoping for your reconsiliation, right? First, apologise to them as well and ask for their help to arrange a dinner for your family only.



Try to move closer to your family, I do not understand this arrangement.

I would encourage you to think about the conditions that led you to this affair, EP's are also designed to eliminate the opportunity to have a secret second life.
If you had an affair at your work, consider seriously to change your work environment to all-female environment.

As for FB account - since you do not have a joint account with your H, one way to show him you are serious about your EP's is to delete your own account entirely and not to visit this wall at all. You can still send him an apology and written list of EP's, there are many things you can do from the distance to show him you are serious, like this FB thing.

What you can do along with the list of EPs is to actually give him an access to your accounts and to information that has been hidden from him - passwords to emails (work, private); access to your banking account; initiate a polygraph; etc. Read HerPapaBear's thread carefully and think it over. There are a LOT you can actually do.

Hi JenniferVoyager,

Thanks for your questions. Home town is over the water in the top of the south island (NZ), we were living in the bottom of the north island. It's either a 4.5hr trip via boat and car or a 25-40min flight. Both sets of parents live in our hometown. Until our house sold (3 weeks ago) I was staying in that and commuting back to hometown every weekend. My current work arranagement is that i'm allowed to work remotely 1 day a week. So i usually fly down on thursday night and back on sunday night. I have my daughter for the 3 nights i'm here so not quite half time.
I have just rented a house back in my hometown now that the house is sold. I'm afraid lliving with my parents was not a possibility for my sanity (and theirs). They are quite a bit older and get exhausted by my darling daughter running around all the time! It's a small house and whilst they have been very supportive over the last 5 months I could not carry on there as they have some very bad values/ideas. (e.g. when they found our my husband declined the date their next 'helpful' suggestion was to 'find a man' - omgiddy i wanted to slap them).
So i needed to set up a base in my hometown which I can now consider home for my daughter and I. When i got back up north I am boarding with a family.
Financially it's not possible to just up and leave my job. With the money we got from the house i paid my half of the debts we had (we weren't very good with money as a couple). Because of the seperation there were other purchases i needed to make (laptop/bed for my daughter etc) and i'm paying approx $250 per week in flights. I earn a very decent salary but i'm living week to week :-(

NeverGuessed,

Thank you so much! These are excellent tips and I love the idea of making the apology a kinda of ongoing expose of my regret. I have already written one note to him (about 3 weeks ago)... but it wasn't on the computer (hand written on the back of a photo) and do you think i can flippen remember everything i wrote! I prefer to handwrite this type of thing but perhaps i'll have to keep a photocopy (hmmm how to do this discreetly at work :P).

I guess my fear (one of many) is that upon receipt of the the first letter he will call/txt/email and tell me again to 'get over him' and stop sending him letters. And it's that fear of rejection thats stopped me sending anymore since the first one.

Hi Mrs Recon

Yes, his parents are wonderful. About 4-5 weeks ago I sat down with them and apologised for the pain i'd caused them in having to see what their son has gone through. And for being the cause of alot of anger within them. I have also started to do the same with his brothers and sisters - 2 done, 2 to go. I have apologised to all and asked for their prayer and support. This was crucial to me as they are so much MY family as well. His little brother (who is actually 18) basically grew up with me in his life as i met him when he was 5 years old!

As an EP I would consider quitting work completely if we were together and could afford to.

FB accounts... we both suspended our accounts for several months after we seperated. When he opened his again i guess i decided i would too.

He does not want access to any of my things anymore as that is what exhausted him in sept/oct last year... the constant checking. He says he has let me go. So as far as i know he would not be interested in checking those things - unless he wanted to try and reconcile. which then of course i would give him access to everything.

How's your letter coming along?

Ready to post it here?

Part of his rejection that he may give you is part of the consequences to your affair.

Doing the right thing isn't always the popular or easy thing to do, or painless.

You're trying to change from a WW to a FWW. Earning that "F" is all on you my dear.

ooooh how to you actually earn that "F" - was wondering that!

Nope not ready yet... will spend some time on it tonight. In between posting on here yesterday i thought i'd better do some actual work :P

"ooooh how to you actually earn that "F" - was wondering that!"


*edit*

*edit*

*edit*

Wowsers, Tom, and here i was thinking this was a decent website with Christians prepared to support people going through tough time. I'm really sorry you feel that way. I really hope that you stick around to see me prove you wrong.

Yes, my Husband made the right move, and i'm glad he did it. Trust me, I know what i was like back then and i'm glad he got out with my daughter to save them from further hurt at the time.

Smileys at the end of statements?? are you serious! it's a habit... sorry but i don't believe smileys are a sign of a level of sincerity.

I have one child, thanks for asking. And the pain and torment I have gone through being apart from her - well it goes without saying and any parent who's experienced this will know what i mean. I don't focus on that because my focus for being on this forum is to get some support and advice about my marriage.

Thanks

Your actions are reactions to what he does or doesn't. You need to change it - you will have to start being proactive that affairs won't happen again in your life. You will have to wipe your side of the street and keep it clean, you do not wipe it only when he does something positive or make a mess out of it or do nothing when he does something negative. You do not do things for getting your BH's response, you will do things to create a new person with whom being around and married is SAFE.

BV,

Do you have your apology letter yet?

Well said MrsRecon. Thanks.

Here is my apology letter. I'm very nervous about posting this but welcome any suggestions.

Dear H
Firstly, thanks for reading this. I want to apologise in advance if this letter brings up emotions that you�ve dealt with. I understand that you�ve made significant gains in moving forward over the last few months and I do not want to undermine that. However there are some things that I need to say � perhaps partly as a grieving/mending process for myself � however mostly because I don�t feel that ive really apologised to you yet.

So�

I need to let you know how deeply sorry and regretful I am for being the cause of so much pain and anger in you over the last 10 months.
One of the things I am most sorry for at the moment is putting you through the betrayal a second time. I�m so very sorry that you went through that. It must have been incredibly painful to have been believing and hoping for our recovery, and then to have it thrown in your face again.

I will probably need to write some more over the next weeks and months as I work through more things in my own recovery from this. I know that you have let me go and would like me to do the same to you. I desperately want to respect your wishes - respecting you is above all my priority now � regardless of what happens in our future � however I cannot just let you go. Sorry.
I love you very much, and miss you all the time. I hope that one day you give me the chance to prove myself and treat you as you deserve to be treated. However, I do understand If you just can�t do this.

I will continue to pray every day for God to work a miracle in our lives and marriage.

Btw - i had to go to the doctors this morning, inner ear infection with severe vertigo. I texted my H to let him know and he offered to drive me home (a 30min drive) because i shouldn't really be driving. It was actually a very nice drive, despite me feeling sick and dizzy the whole way, and we managed to just talk about general 'stuff'.

I guess i just hold onto these little things, like when he texts me first.

This is perfect ( other than being sick sorry about that) to have fun time with him and no affair talk.

Let me get back to you on your letter. Can you schedule more time with him?

If you have a concern about a poster, please notify the moderators.

Now let's stop discussing posters on their threads and get back to helping them with Marriage Builders!

As A BS, I hope to never receive a "apology" letter like this. THis is WAY too much about YOU. Here is a bit of my own edit, although I am not that great at it.
That sounds much better to the ears(and eyes) of a betrayed.

My thoughts.....


1 He might stop reading right there!

2, 3 It's not your issues that he's to be concerned with.

4 Remember - no stand-alone "Sorrys".

5 It can't ALL be about the "bad". You need to hold out some "good" - the introduction of the JC concept.

6 Off-message permission for him to ignore your letter. He knows his options. Force him to consider the ones you favor.

There you go BV some great advice from two excellent posters.

One more thing I would add.

"I'm sorry for my affair. The affair is 100% my fault and I'm so sorry I betrayed you and didn't protect you like the vow and promise I took to you."

Thanks for all the excellent suggestions. I will take them all on board and work on my redraft today/tomorrow.

BrainHurts... yes, going to try and schedule more time. Am thinking about offering a family kyaking day next weekend when he's not working.

Hi BV. i'm a BH like your husband, and though i do not have much to offer at this point advice-wise you should know that there are a ton of us out here on MB who would give our arms for a remorseful wife such as yourself. i'm rooting for you in your effort to recover your marriage and your family. please ignore posters like Tom. take him with large amount of salt (not a grain). normally i know i too can be harsh at times, but in my sitch i have mostly moved beyond the anger which was permeating my life.

your H, very simply, is afraid of being hurt. it's that simple. he cannot bring himself to believe you. it is via your actions that you will show him that he CAN believe you. i have repeatedly looked for signs that my wife is even exhibiting a small amount of remorse only to find that she is anything but. i accept that now. it will probably never happen and i have to move on with my life. i will be following your sitch and if i happen to notice anything that can be of assistance to you i will post it. wishing you the best of luck.

Fantastic BV. Keep us updated.

Sounds like fun. Make all the plans and put lots of effort and Plan A work into it. I'm pulling for you to make a large deposit in his LB.

BV,

You remind me so much of myself a few short months ago. In addition my H was acting very similar to yours. He was pretty much done with me. I, like you did not want to give up on my marriage or myself. You are doing a wonderful job of truly taking in the advice that is being given go you.

I believe you are sincere. Just don't give up listening no matter what happens. I am praying for you to have strength. Take one day at a time. Your H had built a pretty big wall, it will take time and your effort to help tear it down.

Best advice I ever got.....baby steps!

BV, as a BH myself (twice I might add), I would like to echo the sentiments above by savemymarriage.

I know I posted a little bit harshly to you before but I was just wanting to see where your head really was in all this talk of righting your wrong. Really nothing more than that.

Agree completely with smm. Your husband doesn't trust you right now, and frankly he has no reason to. Would you trust him if he did to you what you did to him? It's now up to you to give him a reason if you're serious about this but, hon, it won't happen overnight. Strap yourself in and buckle down tight for the long haul if this is what you really want. Been said many times here, you're in a marathon, not a sprint. So sad that people don't understand this from the beginning. So much easier to fix what you have than to have to radically repair what you thought you didn't have, but really did!

Yep, you crushed your husband, and you have a buttload of work to make it right. But I'm getting the feeling that you are in the mindset that is what you really want and are sincere about it. Again though, it's going to be a long ride, so are you ready for it?

We're talking possibly years here. Are you really up for this? Because if not, then let him go. He doesn't deserve anymore trauma than you have already laid in his lap. He sounds like he's finally getting a grip on his life, so if you're not seriously committed to this, then don't even start. Please don't toy with his heart anymore.

You have no idea the pain of this level of betrayal. None. Make sure you're all in, or let him get on with his life.

Thanks so much for the encouragment SMM... and so sorry to hear about your situation. best of luck to you too.

Thanks Fifteenyears! really appreciate your support and prayers.

How are things with you now? I will have to see if i can find your story on here

Tigerwes..

Thanks. I am ALL IN, for the long haul. There is nothing I want more and will wait as long as it takes. I'd already been warned by his parents that he may need to date several girls to come back around to me. I'm willing to go through that. The prize at the end of the pain will be worth it.

I just found this list on another thread. It's great!

Group A- Serious threats
Includes- OW, OM, any and all past lovers, old girl/boyfriends even if no sex was involved in the relationship, any known strippers prostitues or similar occupations, people we know to be generally flirty or have bad boundaries

Response- NO CONTACT with OM and OW, for the others avoid contact if at all possible and if there must be contact keep it as brief as possible and tell your spouse about it immediately. If you find yourself thinking about dreaming about or fantasizing about someone like this discuss it with your spouse.

Group B-High Threats
Includes- Anyone that is "needy" or desiring help especially if they are having marital problems, anyone that you find physically attractive, anyone who seems to be flirting with you or desiring to be around you more than is necessary, childhood friends of the opposite sex, this also can include anyone in your spouses family that you find attractive, you must be honest both with your spouse and yourself as to who is a threat.

Response- do not help anyone of the opposite sex with marital problems or allow them to help you with yours without your spouse present, do not have friendships with people of the opposite sex. limit contact with these people to nothing more than is needed to be polite, do not discuss life, hobbies, interests or anything else with these people

Group C- Threats
Includes- Anyone that is old enough or still young enough to be sexually active.

Response- do not be alone with them, do not flirt with them or allow them to flirt with you,
do not be overly friendly with them and remember that even an unattractive person can become attractive to you if you let them meet EN's. They should not be on your Facebook etc and they should not have your contact info (phone number, email address etc)

Group D- Low Threats
Includes- the elderly and people too young to be considered sexually mature

Response- Can be alone with them if they need assistance but try and have someone else present if possible to avoid accustations of abuse or molestation

Group E- No Threat
Includes- dead people and people that are known to be gay or blood relatives

Response- pretty much anything goes, they are safe

Velvet,

"I'd already been warned by his parents that he may need to date several girls to come back around to me. I'm willing to go through that. The prize at the end of the pain will be worth it."

Totally wrong! You are wiling to experience your H's adultery now in hope that you will win him back??? I realy question this. Yea I was harsh on you, but - you were harsh on your H. It does not mean that I do not hope and pray for the best for you in terms of saving your M. But, it also does not mean that you should allow your H to now to go outside of your marriage, no matter what he feels.

From your last few posts it seems that you have made some progress, and that is good, however, I thing you should at least attempt to consult with the Harley's.

I have seen a couple of people post 'take me with a grain of salt' etc. Velvet, my W and I have been married for 43 years. It's a difficult situation now with her having to be in a nursing home and us separated. There is no bitterness on my part as 'savemymarr' suggested, just sadness that we cannot be together any longer.

It's easy for many to judge on here because we are anonymous - we do not know the other person. However, this is simply a modern way of communicating, and it does not mean that we should not care about the person on the other end.

I hope that you do prove me wrong based on my original comment , and I have a feeling that you will, which would be great as a young married couple. It will take both you and him tho, with your efforts to do this.

Tom

BV,

Dr Harley says that we are ALL wired to have an affair. Once you realise this and keep your boundaries high, there is no need to act somewhat differently around different people. It has to be a general rule. And btw, siblings and direct blood relatives are also a threat, there have been people here who have witnessed this in real life and suffered tremendously. Please read this: Copying with Infidelity. Part 1. How do affairs begin?

BV, how is it going?

Hi there,

Haven't posted in a week or so now. Busy at work and been a pretty painful time emotionally last few days. I have not yet sent my apology letter but it's finally going in the post today. I'm terrifed of being rejected again which has kept me frozen and unable to move.

Tom - I have just read your post, thanks for your kind words. Yes, I have just realised that him 'dating' basically means him having affairs (if there is an emotional connection), and while i desperately don't want that to happen I figure i can't actually stop him.

As far as seeing the Harleys - pretty much impossible since i live in NZ. I did email them a week/10 days ago but have not had a reply. I can imagine they have alot of emails every day!

I am seeing an excellent counsellor once a fortnight. She has told me to concentrate on prayer atm... and getting everyone i know to pray for his heart to soften and turn back towards me. She reminded me that the decision is his to make because of free will, but prayer can ensure that things happen along the way that will influence his decision.

I'm just in the middle of reading the book "I do, again" by the Scruggs. Excellent read. Want to go finish it now instead of working!

Hope all you mothers had a lovely day yesterday - oh, maybe that's today for you in the US?

We've had a few posters having a real difficult time of getting their emails through.

Notify the MODS and let them know what email address you sent it from.

Please keep trying to get a hold of the Harleys.

Hang in there. You did the right thing for the apology letter and even if you aren't able to save your M you can hold your head higher because you are starting to live your life with some grace. Nothing is wrong with that, correct?

Thanks BrainHurts.

Letter about to go in the post!

Good job!! We will be here for you. Hang tough, my friend.

Did you notify the MODS of your email to the Harleys?

I will do.

How do I get more information on the weekend seminars? Can't seem to find anything on the website...? If they don't do seminars in australasia/pacific i'm gonna petition them to come over!

They don't do the weekend seminars anymore that is what the online program is now.

Thats a shame, seems like a weekend seminar would work better.

Am going to search and ask around to see if anywhere in my country do this. I think my BH would be more amenable to a weekend away - paid by me - than doing an online seminar!

I would try to do MB coaching.

Letty is n NZ and she coached with Steve Harley and she's on her way to recovery.

Have looked over the MB coaching pack. Would def sign up and do that and pay for it myself... however i guess there's no point until i get a 'green light' from my husband. *sigh*

Letter has gone. I'm very nervous as he's picking me up from the airport on thursday so we will be alone in the car for 15 or so mins. I keep going through likely responses from him and it's all consuming!

There will be ALOT of praying going on over the next few days.

BV
You don't mind a little help do you?



nESRE

Just try and be happy and the W he fell in love with. When and if he talks about the letter listen and show empathy.

If he is nonchalant tell him how much you love him but don't over do it. It's all in your actions that he will be watching.

If you think signing up would be a good "action" for him to know you're really repentant then I would do it.

Remember his pain.

Would appreciate any prayers anyone can swing our way!

Yes, am desperately trying to return back to the W he married. Overall feel like i'm making good progress in that department. However on Mothers day i was feeling stupidly sorry for myself (also PMS & had forgotten to take meds away with me) and was in a bad place all day. Unfortunatley he saw that and it's not the person i want him to see! Not that i want to be false either but he's certainly not going to want me back when i'm in a state of depression like that!

It's good to be constantly reminding myself of his pain. I don't actually think I understood this fully until he told me about looking forward to dating and the single mum he is potentially seeing atm. Even the thought of them interacting in any way is enough to make me lose it.

Thanks everyone for your continued support. I really appreciate this forum.

You got it! I've put you on my list.

BV, you are still reacting... and got it all backwards. The most important thing right now is to learn new skills for YOURSELF. How YOU can be a SAFE marriage material. Why would your BH give you a green light? We here say that words are cheap... Are you saying that your condition to become a faithful and safe woman is him taking you back first?

Mrs_Recon, yes, you are right. I completely agree with you. I didn't mean that my condition for becoming that person is him taking me back. I intend to become this person regardless of what happens... and i do feel i'm making progress in this area. Reading heaps, listening to MB radio, doing my homework assigned by you lovely folk here, studying the word etc.

What i meant is that i'm unsure about spending the money and doing it by myself? I assume the idea is to do it as a couple? And the other 'caveat' is that my husband hates spending large amounts of money and i can easily imagine he would see this as a waste. In fact i've been pondering different ways of making restitution to him over the last week or so. One thing I have thought of is to pay him back for the counselling sessions we paid for last year - which he will consider went to waste since we were going through FR. It's probably about $500-600 and i feel like i should be the one paying for that.

Anywho... for those of you that have done this online program - is it suitable for one person to do it?

Would he post here? Its free!

Not sure if he would and too scared to ask yet.

But yes, that would be a good 'free' option for help/advice.

You need to be a bit more fearless BV. You risk rejection sure, but so what? You are asking him to risk a lot more. If he says no, smile and tell him it was just an idea. Merely making the suggestion is affectionate and shows you being proactive.

Thanks indiegirl. I do need a bit more courage, i've said i want to save my marriage but it's the actions that will do that. I struggle a bit with rejection - being an adopted child. However i don't want to make excuses for not standing up and giving it everything.

Perhaps I could send him the link to this thread and say if he's interested in reading it...?

He will likely receive the apology letter today though so i don't want to throw too much at him at once. I really am terrified of doing anything else wrong :-(

Rejection is better than regret... I just recently learned this, so i though I would share it.

MNG

Very true MrNiceGuy. Thanks for that.

Re online program... here's what Dr. Harley says;

"So before you order, be sure that you have your spouse's enthusiastic agreement. If you discuss it with each other, and decide to take these courses together, you will already be practicing one of my very important basic concepts, the Policy of Joint Agreement."

Hmmm so i guess this answers my question. No point in doing it without both agreeing.

Arghhh i feel so stuck and frustrated.

�For all sad words of tongue and pen,
The saddest are these, 'It might have been'.�
- John Greenleaf Whittier

"Hey, rookie, listen to me -
Don't get beat with your second-best pitch!"
- Charles Dillon "Casey" Stengel

"Never give up, never surrender."
- Commander Peter Quincy Taggert

Thanks NG.

I wonder if I should prepare my heart and mind for the worst though - consistent rejection over the next 18 months. But then i guess that will keep the fear and anxiety high and reduce the chances of giving this everything.

*sigh* this is hard. but i'm not done yet. not by a long shot.

I love him so much

Has your BH responded to your letter yet?

No. I'm pretty sure he would have got it yesterday. Unless there was a glitch in the post or he just didn't check the mail yesterday!

Although we chatted online last night which i thought would've been unlikely if he'd just received the letter...?

It was actually nice, he even video called so me and my daughter could talk before she went to bed.

I'm well over halfway through the book by the Scruggs "I do, again". Such a brilliant book, don't want it to end. Will be reading this over and over i think.

Does he know about this thread?

There is nothing so attractive to a BS as a Ws willing to lay themselves open to scrutiny.

I'd LOVE it

No, he doesn't. He knew about the one i started last year.

I'd like to email him the link to it. Again, another nerve wracking thing to do. I'm trying to space things out too and not bombard him.

My counsellor has also warned me to try not to come across needy. I can show that i have needs (at appropriate times) - but that there is a difference that and constantly coming over as needy.

Neediness will put him off me. Apparently guys like to chase... they don't want to be chased!

Nerve wracking? Yes the self improvement you are doing is for you no matter what happens. But since it is also a way to make you a better wife, that makes it amends for him too, that he could accept. Its crazy for you to make amends but hide those amends from him!

I agree neediness is to be avoided at all costs, but I would argue that walking on eggshells is needy.

Trying to manouvre him by hiding stuff is needy.

Making full, unafraid heartfelt amends - where he has the choice to walk away with your blessing is not needy.

Stregnth and independence look like this:
1) I have nothing to hide, I'm an open book
2) I want you back and I'm not afraid to say so
3) The decision is yours, I will respect it
4) An RA with single mum is NOT cool and I don't want you to make the same mistake I made.

If the last one makes you quail, don't let it. You are his wife and men like a wife to show a natural level of jealousy.

Neediness involves fear and lack of standards.

You show no fear and let it be known you won't be around if he goes wayward. You love him but you still have standards

Thanks IndieGirl,

I agree with everything you just said. Um what do you mean by RA?

Walking on eggshells is needy, it's selfish because it says "I (empahsis on the I, gotta learn how to bold things!) can't handle what you may or may not say so i'll hide what might provide healing for you"

It's a selfish world we live in that tells us to protect ourselves all the time.

Hello Velvet, have posted on another forum tonight and just simply wishing you well that you are staying the course and are still here. Nothing more in terms of advice, but just simply prayers for you and your marriage.

Tom

Thank you so much Tom. Definitely still here :-)

BV,

Listen to Indie, she is one smart cookie. I am in a similar boat as you and her advice up top was what I needed as well. Thanks Indie!!!

Whenever I am feeling helpless and sorry for myself I just remind myself that I gave up on my marriage once by having an A. Because of that I owe it to my marriage to fight now until the bitter end. Until my H hands me divorce papers I won't give up on us.

RA=Revenge affair

Fifteen Years,

Thanks for that encouragment. I feel the same. I won't give up until divorce is filed for. Whats the deal in the states? Do you have to wait 2 years after seperation like here?

I don't think he would see making friends with a single mum as having an EA. And i suspect that since we are seperated, advice from others and what he thinks himself is that it will not be an affair.

If he is still legally married to you, it is an affair. I guess it depends on who you talk to but IMO, I think it is an affair.

It is different in every state and honestly I don't even completely know all the ends and outs in my own state. I have never had to worry about it before.

I'm praying like mad that it doesn't come to this. I don't know what contact he's had with her in the last few weeks but my brain goes crazy at times wondering.

On a more positive note - I had to pop in to where he and our DD share a room at his parents to pick something up. He wasn't home but said that the cough medicine was on his bedside table. It was, along with a framed picture of me and him from 6 or 7 years ago. My instant reaction is that it was in the room for our DD. But part of me holds out hope that it was there because he was remembering what we used to be like.

Still no word that he's received my apology letter, and i'm not holding my breath for any acknowledgement.

Putting his opinions in front of your own - and the bare fact that it could well turn into an A - is needy.

He has free will. You don't 'need' him to see it your way. He can choose OS friendships and poor boundaries if he wants.

The point is that YOU display an unneedy and strong stance of 'I want a strong marriage with no OS friendships. I'm offering that. Up to you.'

Am considering doing this, even though there has been no contact. This would be more an action for my BH.

This is my NC draft, please feel free to comment;

OM,

The relationship I had with you was thoughtless, cruel and wrong. It hurt many people, particularly my spouse, who did not deserve to be treated that way. I am determined to make up for all the hurt I've caused my family.

Because of the terrible offense to my spouse and the damage I have done to our marriage, I am permanently ending all contact with you. Please respect my wish to regain my integrity, and to heal my family. Please also respect my wish that you not attempt to contact me in any way at any time. I have no desire to recover the items that were left at your house so please dispose of them as you wish.


Sincerely,

I like it.

So now what? Send it to your BH and ask your BH to send it?

Yes. Thats the plan. It's just about the timing. I don't want to overwelm him with things and he's only just received my apology letter.

I have invited him (and his brother) to dinner tomorrow night. He said he's not sure what his brother is doing and didn't say yes or no, just 'ok'. I guess that's better than a straight out 'no'!

I think following up with the NC after the apology is perfect. He will see your actions.
"
"Say great I'm glad we are going to dinner together we will have a blast"

I think it should just be you and your BH anyway. No brother the better for UA.

Hi Velvet,

I did not get this impression that much, but sort of, in that you or your H may have your eye on length of time to divorce. I realize that the amount of time varies between the various states in the US, and UK an other countries - but know what - that is like a wide receiver in the NFL taking his eye off the ball for a split second for what could have been a certain TD catch in the Super Bowl, but it just results in an incomplte catch! I think sometimes here I see too much posted about the divorce strategy, and that simply takes your eye off the ball Velvet - your M. I see that you are trying to do your best and I realise that divorce is a concern and a possibility, but don't be distracted from your goal.

" We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible."...Vince Lombardi.

The above is a quote from a great football coach, and I think it applies to life as well as to football. I don't offer you this at all in terms of MB concept, but just in terms if some inspiration.

Do well,

Tom

Thanks Tom. Well said and taken on board.

BTW - for those following...

HE CAME TO DINNER!!!

Ok so did his brother but he left fairly soon after dinner and left us 3. Was a nice night. Unfortunatley we didn't get a chance to 'talk' as our DD was being difficult going to sleep and H had to leave for work (night shift last night). I think DD might have been excited we were all together :-)

So it was nice, and perhaps we just need some time like that, even if we don't 'talk'.

No mention of the letter, i can only assume he received it!

So i got a txt this morning saying thanks for the apology letter. Nice that i got acknowledgement of it.

Now i have to figure out what my next steps are...

That is great news!! Baby steps! Find reasons and things you can do to spend time together and show him that you care. Again, you have a long road with lots of hills. When the hills seem impossible, come to thus site and learn from both waywards and battereds how to help you help yourself.

My thought and prayers are with you BV

Continue to show him your actions that you truly are a changed WW and are a FWW.

Any luck on finding a job there closer to your BH and DD?

No not yet :-(

Applied for another one on friday so we'll see where that goes. I start doing week about from the start of june though which means only 5 nights a fortnight away from them. Slightly better than current situation.

I've been thinking though that part of accepting the consequences of my actions is sacrificing in terms of the jobs i'm looking for. I may need to make a bigger sacrifice salary wise than i initially thought.

That's one of the toughest things to cross is accepting responsiblity for our own actions. Also you will know that you're truly a FWW when you have shown that you've changed and continue to live your life the right way.

I would expand my job search to everything that can get me back to my DD.

Do you know if WH is still talking with that OW? Do you think their relationship is more?

Yes, I've already applied for a couple of administration jobs. However they are just telling me i'm over qualified and they'd rather give the position to someone who doesn't have a job already and is more suitably qualified rather than someone who just wants to relocate. GRRRRRR. It's extremely frustrating because if i wanted a new job in the city i'm currently working in - there are about a dozen suitable jobs advertised a week. Compare that to one a month in the place i'm trying to get to :-(

I don't know about OW. I'm too scared to ask. And feel that i don't have any right to after what i've done. Even though i know i have some sort of 'right' to, because legally he's still my H...

BV,


It is OK to ask him whether he is still in touch or meeting with this woman. While you are making amends yourself it is also necessary to let him know that it is not OK to have extramarital relationships his own. No matter how conflicting it may feel this is a matter of one's proper behaviour. The one that you are now trying to fix in yourself. When you have this next possibility to have dinner together or just meet him, let him know that you care about what happens to him and this marriage and having an affair himself is not OK for you. One may even call them "dating" but affairs are never ok.

I agree. You're still married to him and I would let him know that it does not give him permission to run off and have his own affair. Without committing any lovebusters of course.

"I will do whatever it takes to fight for my marriage"

Thanks you 2 :-)

I agree, It's important to let him know these things. I'm not sure if i can do that in person or not... maybe an email.

Thinking about what my next step is. Perhaps sending him the link to this thread. Or the NC letter for him to send if he wants. Will give it a few days/week though as i feel that the apology letter and him coming to tea were big steps for us and it's important to have a breather in between.

Do not wait for weeks! NC letter would be the next thing. Along with the letter send him the list of passwords to all of your accounts you are using online. Have you deleted your FB account?

Read this. Thread of Extraordinary Precautions

There are 2 categories of EPs. The first one has to be done before the second one. This is one-time list and makes sure you will not have any more opportunities to revive your affair. NC letter, providing him the access to all accounts, etc is the first category thing. This takes maybe 1-2 days, not weeks. Remember - this has to be done first! Given thread gives you examples, you also have to think very carefully what were the things that made your affair possible and plug those holes forever.

The second category is the plan for your new lifestyle. This is for life. And you cannot offer that kind of CARE when your first category has holes in it.

I'm not that sure about those "baby steps". I understand you would not want to pressure your BH, coming back to you would be his own decision to make. But he would want to SEE what he is coming back TO. Now, if you are taking weeks to complete your emergency package, I would think twice if I were him. If something that has to be done immediately would take weeks from your part, then I don't know - you may never become a safe woman to anyone.

I will help you here a bit.

I posted this to you back on 05-02-12 and I think this should be at the top of your list.

I used to be a WW and I know what dragging your feet means, my friend.

Occasionally reading this thread (though I shouldn�t).

I�m confused.

This BH has already played his Get Out of Jail Free card. He has, in the words of the adulteress herself, �categorically� moved on.

He wants to be left alone.

He is being very polite but firm about it.

Would it not be the compassionate thing for this adulteress to just leave the BH alone?

Yet this thread reads like everyone desires him to be tricked or otherwise manipulated into reconciling. Yet again!

This BH not only has the right to D he has stated his strong desire to do so. He is only forced, trapped actually, into waiting 18 months by some medieval socialistic D law. But he definitely wants out. He has stated so in no uncertain terms. This thread is giving the adulteress advice which will most likely result in no more than extending and extenuating the amount of time his heart is breaking.

He has stated what he wants. Out! The MB advice should be to leave him be. She should leave him alone. Shall I quote Dr H on the matter?

And before anyone posts that if he wanted help he would post on MB, well obviously. But he does not want to and he isn�t is he? He neither wants any help nor wants an adulterated M. He specifically doesn�t want help reconciling, and that includes MB help.

She should leave him alone.

Aphelion,

BV came here for help. No one here is teaching her how to "trick" or "manipulate" her BH back to her. I'm sorry you see this advice as manipulation. We are teaching her how to affair-proof herself. People here are trying to teach her how to become a safe wife again, so once her H decides about this marriage, he has solid proof that BV may deserve a second chance. Her H hasn't filed for divorce yet, and she is fully aware that things might end this way. I don't see her as a hopeless case.

Again - focus -

"This thread is giving the adulteress advice which will most likely result in no more than extending and extenuating (as in justifying) the amount of time his heart is breaking."

In this case there appears to be no benefit whatsoever to her BH in any sort of reconciliation other than efficient joint parenting of their daughter. Whose wellbeing in an intact family, I might add, this adulteress might have thought about even once and momentarily during her adultery.

eta: Oh, and as to "so once her H decides about this marriage..." He already has decided! He's out. Out. Already gone.

Aphelion,

He has also stated (as indicated in a previous post of mine) "I would NOT say I NEVER want to be with you again'.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Thank you so much Mrs_Recon. I don't see myself as hopeless anymore either. With God's grace I am changing every day. And no matter what the outcome, God comes first now, which for me is the actually the most important outcome from all of this.

Yep, I think/know you are right. It's stupid to wait weeks. I have a NC letter ready (see earlier in my thread) and will post it to my husband tomorrow along with a list of EPs. I will look at this thread and re-look at my EP's today.

Here is a revised list to give to my H.

1. Change cellphone number � my new number from the (date) is ***
2. Change gmail address
3. No one on one meetings/social activities with male friends
4. No discussion on marriage/separation issues with males
5. I will email you my passwords for my gmail account, work account and bank a/c. I will inform you when they change.
6. Abstinence from alcohol � start on the 1st June. ***EDIT***


I think i would include in this something like "obviously it's your decision what you do with these passwords and I realise that you probably dont want to be checking up on me, but i want to show you how much i've changed (am changing) and that I have nothing to hide"... or something like that!

I am confused, BV. Did you close your FB? Did you already change your email and all phone numbers?

No, at the moment the only precaution i have taken is having OM's email address/s and phone numbers/fb blocked. I can't change my work number but have it set to screen calls - i never just pick up the phone at work now.

I had suspended my FB a/c for a time at the start of the year. I want to do this but it's actually one of the biggest ways that my H and I keep in contact being as we now live in seperate cities. I didn't want to give up the opportunity to be able to talk to him when he's online... but i guess i need to scarifice that to show change.

I guess i'm 'dragging my heels' on changing my personal cell and email because i haven't had any contact from OM for almost a month - so i guess have a sense of safety. But, as someone else pointed out to me, he could just email/phone me from a different number. So yes, this is something i need to get onto asap.

Hello Velvet,

First time I have looked in here in a few days and I have to say I am thrilled by the steps you have taken and your attitude.

***EDIT***

I liked your NC letter - short, succinct, and honest. No wavering. Your letter and the dinner are excellent gestures - you have no control over the result as you obviously know, but I don't think you could do a helluva lot more at this point except to continue to accept advice here and continue to read.

As far as your H posting here, I would encourage at this point, but not push at all.

Right now I have to get out and water about 20 geranium, marigold and parsley plants. I'm behind on things due to retreat but catching up.

You are doing very well in my opinion!

Tom

Thank you so much Tom, I really appreciate your encouragement. I'm runnning a marathon here with no sure result so I need all the support i can get. ***EDIT***

I am going to be very blunt with you.

I am very very wary of F?WSs who don't back up the talk with action. These are very basic precautions that should have been implemented without us having to nag you or your H having to ask you.

Additionally, you were not being straightforward in answering Mrs Recon's question regarding EPs. It actually set off a red flag for me the way that you answered... I'm not impressed, BV. Not at all.

BV,

Why have you taken so long to write the NC letter?

Why haven't you changed all your contact information closed FB?

You're being called to the carpet.

Words do not equal actions.

ITA. The ink's not dry on the divorce decree, Aphelion. Why are you hastening the death of a marriage that a wayward is desperately trying to save? Are you saying Dr. Harley's methods for recovering marriages are tricks? Manipulations? HUH. And yet, there is no divorce action initiated....

Yes, please do so in case I've missed something. The wayward wants to recover the marriage. The betrayed spouse says he doesn't. And yet he does nothing to end the relationship. He doesn't sound committed to ending the marriage. Please quote Dr. H on this.

Apologies SusieQ & others who have pulled me up on this. I'm pretty ashamed of my inaction here.

I've been sitting here thinking of how to respond, and my excuses. But there's really not excuse. They are pretty simple actions and i need to just get them done, regardless of whether there's a perceived threat from OM or not.

Do you think I should shut my FB even though it's one of the ways my H and I interact atm?

I will be buying a new sim card(new #) on the way home tonight and when i get home i will open a new gmail account.

I will report in tomorrow as to whether i've done these or not.

Thanks for the kick up the bum

The NC letter... I guess because it's been 6 months since the seperation from my H and a couple of months since of seen the OM i didn't want to do this because I think my H's response will be 'i don't really care anymore'. And for me, the thought of actually having to send something to OM (pause for vomit face) feels like that breaks the NC time i've already racked up here!!!

But i will do it. I will print and send to my H today in the post with an envelope for him to send on if he wishes.

Actually i'm so p**sed off at myself for not doing it earlier i'm just going to take a break from work now and go get a new phone number! GRRR.

To save the BH more agony. This thread has no compassion for him in it at all. It�s all about the adulteress. Obvious. Yes, this is her thread. But it talks and talks and talks about the BH as if he is a mere lab rat for the adulteress to experiment some more upon. This BH should be left alone, for his own future happiness.

No. You are not nearly as good at magnification and reductio ad absurdum as you think you are.

Actually, he has already done as much as he can to divorce. He left the marital home with his daughter, and he has stated more than once he wants one. He has told the adulteress they are �separated,� which is as much as he can legally do now. See below.

You haven�t read this thread, or my specific post, very closely have you? The only reason given for no quick divorce is, and I quote for you, so you cannot continue to ignore the facts, �This BH not only has the right to D he has stated his strong desire to do so. He is only forced, trapped actually, into waiting 18 months by some medieval socialistic D law.� Let me know if you need this explained. I have a good friend who is an NZ solicitor.

Where in MB theory is ok to advise a WS to essentially stalk a BS? In particular, a BS who has fully left, separated and clearly stated he does not want to recover.

Since i'm the one in the situation here I thought I might just chip in with what's ACTUALLY happened. My BS has never used the word divorce NOR has he displayed a strong desire to.

With all the delays and equivocations and backtracking demonstrated over quite a while now by this adulteress, I don�t think she is serious about her BH. Maybe she is just playing some sort of a game for eventual child custody. Adulterers in general do this sort of thing all the time. Including mine.

***EDIT***

Thanks for your support MaritalBliss. I was just deciding whether or not to reply to this this post, but honestly my time/effort is not going to go into 'fighting' with someone like this. At least we know the source of the bitterness.

Rightho, off to purchase new Simcard!

If you ever had any contact with OM on FB, shut down your Facebook account and tell your husband to contact you through email.

Oh, baloney. Totally wrong, and glaringly exposes your bias. Read the whole thread for complete context, Aphelion. Sheesh. They are not divorced, Aphelion. They are married. Hope remains from a very committed poster who wants to recover her marriage. That should be our goal for her. What is your goal for her? Her husband has not filed for divorce and has made no indication that he plans to do so.

Have you read something from this poster to acknowledge that her H ready to divorce? Until you have, you are OUT OF LINE and are not contributing to the recovery of this marriage.

Thanks Maritalbliss. FB is such a timewaster anyway.

I'm quite excited! Just figured out how to change my cell number online... all done!

Drafting a new letter to my H now that stipulates my EP's and will have the NC letter/envelope enclosed.

Re-posting this for Aphelion.

***EDIT***

***EDIT**

BV, reposting this to your consideration. Could you just please use a different colour and put a yes/no behind my questions.

What makes me worried is that you don't see that threats are all around you and you don't see yourself as a threat to other people. Do you really think that this particular OM is now a non-threat? Or that since you've decided to fight for your marriage you are also a non-threat to other married people?

Let me explain.

1. this particular OM is connected to other people you know and information can easily go back and forth and without you knowing it you already think about him. It is not physical contact, which would be a dealbreaker here, but you have to realise that there is a mental contact as well, and THAT doesn't help you a bit but causes you to drag your feet, like you've done so far. It boils down to the fact that you have to stop socialising with people who might have a slightest connection to him. You have to plug those holes from where you might get a tiniest bit of information about him. When you communicated with him through FB and are using it still (it doesn't matter that your reason is to use it only to communicate with your H), you need to shut it down for life.

2. being in the situation you are right now, you are vulnerable to yet another affairs. You are also a remaining threat to other married women and their families. Only your taken actions - extraordinary precautions will make you safe. So, EPs are important and the sequence of steps is also important.

Thanks.

When are you going to take care all those "no's"?

Opps, sorry some of those top ones came out as blue so was hard to see.

Would never get away with putting in a webcam at work!! I work for the government! I guess i could at home - I think my H would laugh his A** off at this though and think i was spending money unneccesarily. Would i do this even if he thought it was stupid?

Polygraph? Um what would the purpose of this be? that my H would come along and ask me questions?

Bank a/c passwords will be given along with email passwords in my letter.

Software to track internet use... umm dunno where to start here, guess i google it? He's never even looked at my laptop so not sure what this would acheive while we are seperated?

Pre-nup? Um without sounding rude/dumb, is this a US thing? I've never heard of anyone I know do this?

Keys... just my house key, i'm giving him a copy anyway so that he can get any of our DD stuff that gets accidentally left around.

Think that's all the no's.

Okay, BV. I'm sure you will figure this out. But first of all, you need to answer this question to yourself, giving your somewhat arrogant answers -- how badly you want to prove your H that you are willing to change and become a loyal partner and a good example to your daugther?

Aphelion, your posts made me realize something. I am being selfish. No, not selfish. Jealous. Envious.

I left the forum over a month ago, saying I couldn�t bear to read others� success stories when I didn�t have a success story of my own. I think you and I can agree that this board is heavily weighted with MB successes.

So�should we counsel BV to give up, and fail at her M, as ours have failed? We do share that one thing in common, you and I�despite the well-intentioned folks here on the forum, despite application of MB principles, our marriages have failed. If I understand correctly, outwardly your situation is very similar to mine, in that you, the BH, has no intention of recovering your M, no intention of letting your W fill your ENs (even claiming you don�t have ENs anymore), yet continue to live together as a family and believe you are providing the best-case scenario for the children. So, we could agree that neither of us have a M as Dr. Harley defines M.

Does the fact that my M has not, and likely will not, recover - despite my best efforts at following the tenets of MB � cause me to reject the very idea of marriage, or MB, or for that matter, redemption?

I am not arguing that BV�s BH ever has to give her another chance. And I am not arguing that a BH should accept a M to an �adulteress.� No one should remain married to an active wayward. And it is absolutely your prerogative � as well as my BH�s, and BV�s BH � to decide that marriage to a �former adulteress� is unacceptable.

But then�DO something about it. File for divorce. Begin the paperwork. Enter Plan B. Limbo is a horrible place to be stuck. Yes, there may be a �draconian� legal system in place, �forcing� the BH to remain stuck in a marriage for 6, 12, 18 months before divorce can occur. But the process can still be started with legal intent.

If BV is served with legal papers by her BH, if he enters into Plan B *despite* her attempts to show him she is working on changing herself, then I would say perhaps she should throw in the towel and let him be. I can�t even look at my sitch and tell you honestly that I�ve �thrown in the towel� as I continue to hold out olive branches to my own BH, even when Dr. H himself has essentially told me to give up.

Until that time, BV should continue to work on herself. She should continue to identify her weak boundaries and implement EPs. It will help her to avoid being a threat to another woman�s marriage, as well as help her to become a stronger individual and better human being � whatever happens to her marriage.

If adulterers are incapable of being redeemed, are other sinners incapable of redemption? If so, hell is going to be a pretty crowded place, and I guess my religion has taught me wrong all these years.

Here�s a little story. My brother has a friend, who got in serious trouble with the law about 15 years ago when he was a teen (old enough to be charged as an adult). Armed robbery, assault with a deadly weapon, eluding arrest, drugs. He was one of 4 co-defendants. I happened to be working at the courthouse when his case came through. The other 3 co-defendants all testified against him and accepted pleas. None of them received active prison time. My brother�s friend spent 4 years in prison. During that time, he received his GED, completed rehab, and received vocational training. He has a family now and has really turned his life around.

If no one had believed in this kid, where would he be today?

If no one believes in the efforts of a wayward who is trying to become a former wayward, regardless of the ultimate fate of their marriage, where will they end up?

Maybe some would say �no great loss.� But BV is a human being. She has a daughter. Admittedly, it is difficult to judge character and intentions through a computer monitor, but BV � and her self-improvement efforts and marital recovery efforts - deserve to be treated with respect until she shows us otherwise.

Aphelion, I am truly sorry for the loss of your marriage. I don�t know your whole story, just bits and pieces. You didn�t deserve what your W did to you, nor did my H deserve what I did to him. I honestly have valued what you said on my own thread because I think out of all the other posters here, you�ve come closest to showing me exactly what my BH thinks of me. Not that it is a favorable perception, mind you, but it is honest!

I�m pulling for you, BV. Now get back to your EP�s and Mrs. Recon�s questions!

I�m getting off the soapbox and back to my little corner of the universe now.

Great post wulffpack_girl!!

Welcome back!!

You've been missed.

Welcome back WPG!!! Very well said, you had me bawling like a baby. You have and always will be my hero! What you just said shows how far you have come. Thank you and you were missed!!!

DITTO !!!

***EDIT***

***EDIT***

Wow my thread has taken on a life of it's own over night.

Look I will read ANY advice given to me here as i'm truely repentant and want to save my marriage. But can we please stop this!!! I really don't want this thread turning into a fight between other posters :-( Wasn't my intention at all.

Thank you WPG for your post.

If things get out of hand, start notifying the mods that your thread it less valuable to your MB process due to thread jacking.
That issue will be dealt with BY THE MODS if your request is ignored.

Eek I came across arrogant?!!! Apologies.

Polygraph and post-nup i will google today so that I can be in a position to offer that.

Software to track - will sort on the weekend.

WEbcam... will google that too.

Thanks pepperband

A note to all:

Stop arguing on this thread. Help this poster with Marriage Builders concepts or refrain from posting!

Thanks Ariel

If the BH requests being left alone, which as a big boy he is able to do, she should respect that.

As it is, he is responding to her and allowing her to make amends while not making her any promises.

So she is doing what he wants.

I have 'moved on' too. I don't want my WS back. But he could at least offer to make amends. Its basic decency. I applaud BVs efforts. She will be a better wife in the next marriage if she doesn't save this one. If you steal money, you should offer to pay it back and show how you would do so.

And the legnth of time for a divorce is necessary, not 'medieval'. A marriage is a solid thing that can't be dissolved by a click of the fingers.

He has healing to do and decisions to make in that very necessary time period. BVs offer (not manipulation - a straightforward offer) makes the end of his marriage HIS choice, instead of the abandonment and lack of choice most BSs have to heal from.

Keep it up BV, get on that EP list and don't be scared of offering your BH a great marriage IF HE WANTS IT.

You owe him the offer. He is owed that choice.

In his shoes I would be wary and unencouraging too, but I would watch how hard you were willing to work, how fearlessly you made amends, how many amends you made, how much you cared. How safe I would be.

So there's no room for fear and trepidation. He has the luxury of being wary - you don't. Give it your all until he makes that call.

IndieGirl

Your post/encouragment is spot on and i appreciate every word. Thanks.

I also agree that the 2 year gap before one can file for divorce is a good thing. Marriage is not something that should be taken as 'lightly' as have in the last year or more. It is something to be honored, protected and valued at all costs.

Yep, he has every right to move on even at the end of this next 18 months - regardless of how hard i work during that time. His 'get out of jail card' was issued the moment i started my affair. However, i WILL do my best until then. And if i don't manage to save this I look forward to the journey in which i am becoming a better person, moulded by God, and a safer person should i enter another relationship.

Thanks

I am going to be a good employee now so will not check back on here for a couple of days.

Will update then on status of sending EP's/NC letter etc. It's all drafted on my computer but i like to handwrite these types of things and i don't have time to do that till tonight.

(BTW - i can't believe how good it feels to have changed my phone number and email! thanks to those who pushed me to do this :P)

My point exactly. Thank you for a great post, WPG.

Just a quick update to say handwritten letter to my H including NC letter, EP's, and passwords are in the mail today.

It's a weight off my shoulders to do this and i didn't even realise until it went.

Thanks to everyone here who has encouraged me to take these steps.

You guys rock

my friend. Keep us updated.

How are your daily talks with him going? When's your next visit to him?

Thanks BH,

Daily txts are fine and we've skyped with our DD a couple of times. Next visit in 3 sleeps! Just did the last of the long stretches in between being there so am really missing my baby girl!

Will keep updating

Good, have a safe trip and lots of to your DD.

I am so impressed with you, BV! Keep up the great work.

Hello BV,

Was looking at your story now and I know I caused a few of the fireworks a couple of weeks ago. But, ya know what, your willingness to handwrite a no-contact letter is a giant step forward.

You haven't posted much in the last several days so it is hard to tell where you are at and what to post to you, except just keep proceding as you are. I hope that any absence of your updates means that your steps to M recovery are going well.

Tom

I think it's because she was making a trip this weekend to see DD and BH.

Goodness me do i have an update and a half!!!

So my letter as described above got sent last week. However my H was housesitting at his sisters so hasn't received it yet.

So yesterday I had offered for H to have our D for the day/night as he was off work which is a rariety for the weekend. So i went to drop her off and ended up having lunch with him and his parents at a cafe. Which was fine/great. Then i went out for my training session and arrived back to a text from him asking if i wanted to go back around for pizza and DVD. So of course i did. We had a nice dinner and watched a kids movie with our D. Put her to bed and then put on another movie. He had brought a bottle of wine as well and started to drink that. I was starting to feel very wary about what was going on. I had 1/2 glass and he polished the bottle. As i was going to leave he said 'we should have sex', 'just for fun'. I was completely shocked and didn't know what to say. I knew he was a little bit drunk and told him i wasn't sure because of that. He said he didn't want to make a big deal out of it... just that he'd missed 'that' (not me, sex). I got quite emotional... part of me wanted it so bad (to be close to him, not sex) but part of me felt used.

Anyway long story kinda short - i ended up staying the night. No talking, just the physical intimacy. He slept in the lounge and I slept with our D in the only bed in the house! He did come in for a cuddle this morning which was nice... but no talking about what the heck had just happened. We went to church together and then lunch at my parents.

Church again tonight together but i had to leave early to get D into bed. He txtd not long after i'd left to say he didn't know whether to say thanks or sorry for last night. Wowser... I've felt like wh*re on and off for the last 10 months and that just made me feel like it again.

I txtd back saying that I really love him and enjoyed being close to him. But... that i wanted to give this EVERYTHING, and needed him to do the same. So not JUST want me for sex. I said that i knew he couldn't trust me but he could trust God and what He is doing in my life. I also said i don't want to confuse our D anymore than she already is.

He said he doesn't know what he wants at the moment.

What the heck do i make of all of this!

I don't want to be used for sex for the next 18 months and then have him file for divorce... but part of me (the part that's still low self esteem) feels that i owe it to him :-(

Well...that is a big update!

I think a lot depends on the circumstances of your previous experiences and also your PA...but this might be a big step for him, too. I know men are different, but for me, when my X had a PA, I just never felt comfortable having sex with him again. HE felt used to me. So, this may really be a big step for him to say, hey, I want to be intimate with you. And also, for men, that is a HUGE emotional need, so if you're in plan A, if you're committed to trying everything for the marriage, then why are you thinking about divorce when you have a chance to meet an EN? It's also a big part of a connection between a couple...so it seems to me anyway like you're over analyzing it and not really committing to plan A like a rock star.

Remember...feelings follow actions...and YOU are in charge of your own feelings.

It seems like you are on a bit of a high horse now to say that sex is some part of the package deal of marriage after having broken those vows yourself...if I were your BH, I'd question your willingness to be part of a marriage if what is getting in the way is your mental reserves rather than your desire. It'd be one thing if you didn't want to make love to your husband, but it's entirely another if you don't just because you're thinking about the possibility of divorce from your husband. Aren't you just using sex as a bargaining chip with your own husband?

Also...don't want to confuse DD more than she already is? Really? I mean, hopefully she doesn't know anything about your sex life, so any confusion came from you spending the night there...which you did. Having sex with your husband? How does your DD play into that?

Sorry to sound skeptical here...but it just doesn't seem like a full commitment to your actual, current marriage to not have sex when both you and your husband desire it and you're in Plan A.

Thanks fair enough JV and i understand what you are saying. I guess it just felt so weird when there was no discussion at all... no suggestion from him that he wanted to give it another go... just the sex.

I know the it's meeting his ENs by doing that so perhaps i should just carry on if he wants to - regardless of weather he says he wants me back...?

DD was confused because mummy and daddy have not spent a night in the same house for 6 months. Confused and very happy.

I think the fact that your H wanted to have SF is a fantastic development! He is reconnecting with you on a huge level. That is an important EN for him, and you met it. Embrace the joy of reconnecting on this level!

Thanks Martial Bliss. Most of me think that too... just that little niggling fear that tells me otherwise.

I think i will invite him for dinner tomorrow night.

Am here for another week and have 3 more job applications to put in. Thinks are looking up finally.

Hmmmmmm.....

As for the whole 'used for sex' thing...

Used implies a) he's tricking/manipulating you or b) he's not committed to you. Neither of which is true as he was honest about what he wanted and he is married to you. The fact he might choose to divorce in the future doesn't make him any less your husband now.

The whole concept of being used boils down to your walking on egg shells with him about the level of commitment. You feel powerless and that has the side effect of making people feel manipulated and used. So take power. You're his wife until he divorces.

The response to the 'just for fun' comment would be something like: 'Oh it will be. I've been longing to be in my husbands arms again' reiterate YOUR commitment and your rightful position as much as possible. That's the truth of the matter until actions make it otherwise. Marriage is marriage until divorce. There is no limbo. There is also no need to text him for commitment, as you already have it. Neediness is a love buster and there is no need to feel 'used' in the future if he chooses to D. You slept with him as his wife.

The other crux of the problem is that sex doesn't appear to be a high EN for you. When he wants needs like affection or RC you don't feel used, - but when its meeting a need for him, and he uses the term 'fun' you're offended because sex isn't a high need. If he referred to meeting one of your high needs as 'fun' I doubt you would have the same reaction. So he may not fully appreciate your perspective.

You're fully within your rights to say no to sex that makes you uncomfortable, but I predict if you were to seize the power of the situation, you wouldn't feel used.

If you were to say, 'I'm your wife, I'm yours whenever' rather than asking HIM to say that, you'd feel more powerful.

Even if he were to disagree, just smile and say you hope he feels differently soon, but until you see divorce papers, you feel you belong in the bed where your husband sleeps whenever he wants you there.

I think BV's H's desire for SF is an overture for recovery. Keep responding to his needs, BV. You're doing well.

I think BV's H's desire for SF is an overture for recovery.

The only "issue" here is, as usual, the treatment accorded SF as somehow "holy", "profound", and "sacrosanct", by most females.

Spin the sexes and situation around. WH invited to spend some time by dubious, tentative BW. After a pleasant evening, BW makes overtures to XWH, suggesting that to establish the beginning of a rapprochement, maybe FWH would attend to an EN she has been missing...and change the oil in her car! He does so. It would be extremely doubtful that he's going to spend as much time as already spent on this thread wondering if she was only using him to service her (vehicle's) needs, and wasn't really interested in possibly getting back together.

And just to forestall the usual, "But sex is different..." nonsense, let me point out that in comparison to sexual congress, changing a car's oil probably takes longer, requires getting in more difficult positions, and demands a more thorough clean-up!

BV, your BH wanted you. Rejoice in that, and don't look for problems. If they're there, they'll find you soon enough!

I understand why u feel the way u do BV about the SF. But let me chime in as a guy and a BH. Your BH wanting to engage in SF with you is a milestone. Yes there's the purely physical aspect of it. But as a guy after dday SF was my way of connecting with my WW. For me that didn't last long LOL bc she's gone never to return. But me trying with her was my way also of "marking my territory" so to speak. Or resuming my role as husband. Your BH tried to downplay it by saying it's "just sex" but rest assured it was more than that.

You cannot expect him to all of a sudden say "ok, all's forgiven. I love you too." right now he doesn't really trust you but is looking for ways to. And you cannot blame him for bring wary. The SF represents the 1st step to re-connecting with him. Yes I know for many women the SF is an expression of their emotional connection to their partner, whereas for men the act of SF itself is what engenders feelings of closeness. The answer for you and your BH with the SF lies somewhere in between. You are correct to be wary about just giving in to the SF bc WPG's BH would call it "just sex." But it is potentially the first step back in the road to recovery. Cuddle, hug, caress & kiss. Try it. Pull back a little and see his reaction. He may grow emotional. Cry? Bc here is his hopefully former WW re-connecting with him on a physical level. Initiating SF whereas before you did that very thing with another man not your husband.

So again agree with MB. This is a potentially HUGE step. Don't know if you've figured out your BH's most important EN's. SF is probably there but am sure O&H has to be there too. Only you can judge your BH's motives re: initiating SF. But just the fact that he's interested speaks volumes about how he is still attracted to you. For me as the months have gone by with my WW firmly wayward, I can say that the idea of engaging in SF with her does not appeal to me like it used to when I first started down this road (am almost done with D process. Maybe 2-3 months more). I used to be able to arouse myself sexually with thoughts of her, but now? Nope. Not really bc I know she has given herself over to other men (plural) several times. Sorry but the good old LB is beyond empty. It's in the deep negative, chapter 11 in the U.S.A. bankruptcy laws. As a guy, I do have standards. I know some really attractive women but SF? No. Bc there are things about these women which turns my stomach. My WW is someone like that. Gross. Not attractive.

I'm not saying your BH is now firmly back in love with you but he's at least still attracted to you. And I take it that he hasn't engaged in SF with others bc "it's been a long time" as you stated?

BV,

This action is very similar to what took place with my H and myself only a few short months ago. At first I felt the same way you did, used. You can not however look at it like that at all. He is giving you a huge part of himself by allowing you to be part of his SF and possibly one of his top ENs.

This is such a HUGE deal! Just look at where you were a month ago and where you are now. Try to let your giver take control vs. Your taker. I know it is hard and I still struggle with it. But this is such a huge step for both you and your H.
Embrace it, look at the positives in it and continue to go with it.

This is his way of letting you back in, one little step at a time. The whole being used thing really sounds silly when you think of what you allowed yourself to do to get yourself into the situation your in now. I know that sounds harsh but remember I am a wayward too and whenever I start feeling sorry for myself, I .remind myself of what I did to get myself in this situation.

P.S. I now look at each SF experience with my H as the last time we may have together. Because you never know if it will be. It makes it much more intimate and wonderful for me. I truly cherish it more than I ever have before.

Thanks everyone.

You have given me a better perspective on the situation. And you are all right... again!

I do very much want to meet his EN... yes, it's possibly the lowest one on my list and the highest one on his, so it's always been a struggle, but I will do EVERYTHING i can do save this.

Thank you for you insight. Really appreciate it. As far as i know he hasn't been with anyone else. No confirmation on that but i don't believe he has. And i think part of him doesn't want to do that... maybe realises that it would be an affair... He actually said he misses SF so much but didn't want to be with anyone else.

Thank you fifeteen years. Thats very encouraging.

I'm going to start re-reading SAA again tonight. Just finished reading "How to help your spouse heal from your affair" by Linda J MacDonald too which is very good.

I can't particularly remember which article it is in, but an interesting observation Dr. Harley has made is that when SF becomes mutually enjoyable, a woman's desire (strength/frequency) will go UP, while a man's will go DOWN. Living it, I can testify to this.


There were some watershed moments while turning it around. I can tell you that SF is NOT easy as a BH. Obviously, if it... er.... ain't working... we can't really fake it. Let me tell you, betrayal does wonders for longevity that baseball stats could never accomplish. But it isn't in a pleasant manner.


The truth is that despite all the social mythology on men and sex, we DO require vulnerability to even participate, it's simply physiological. It's also why early in recovery a session of SF can often be followed by some tough times. You are both literally and emotionally "laid bare."


And remember, when you are having SF, you aren't just meeting an EN, you are meeting an intimate EN. One of the core goals of the program.

You are not just "giving yourself to him," but you are also accepting him into you.

Repeat that to yourself;


"I am accepting him into myself."

agree w/ both 15y and HHH. he has held out for his wife. that's awesome. that says volumes about your husband. i have a good feeling about your situation BV. there is hope. this is a first step. Your BH is reaching out to you in one of the important ways a husband can to his wife. dont think of it as anything but that. he is not some random guy you met in a bar. he is the father of your daughter. he is the man you love. i'm envious in every way bc i am at the opposite end w/ my WW. this is your chance to reconnect. i root for you and all other aspiring FWW's bc i wish my WW couldve been the same and will never be. she does not have your strength, fortitude and sense of remorse.

i especially like HHH's: "I am accepting him into myself." wow. that epitomizes the intimacy you have an opportunity to share with your husband. he will be feeling especially vulnerable afterwards as well. he will be asking himself how does he compare to OM. that cannot be helped. your W, your suppposed life partner cheating on you with someone else opens up a whole can of worms. it engenders the ultimate insecurity that one can experience as a man. you really do ask yourself, am i good enough? was he better than me? it is a huge blow to one's ego. your mojo is in question. he will be doubting himself and doubting you. be ready. do not be suprised by him either getting quite emotional or even angry. do not react. just be present. hold him in your arms. and do not be afraid to show your emotions either. this is where your love for your husband will need to shine thru. once the SF is complete it will hit you. you WILL find yourself welling up with emotion as well BV. this "re-connection" with him is what you have been working towards all along. good luck BV.

Cheers, SMM

And yes, I did get emotional... it only took the first hug! I really had to hold back so it wouldn't take over the moment/s.

I know he may go through a period of questioning and reluctance now. Have invited him for dinner tonight but he's not committed yet.

But i'm feeling very positive and praising God for what he is doing.

Two points, BV, from my perspective:

1. In Plan A, you must control your expectations. I struggled with this - still do, to be honest. You fill your BH's ENs without any expectation in return. It's easy to say that you don't have expectations, but difficult to practice. Simplest way for me to put it is...just...don't get your hopes up (HHH would tell me not to "Tommy Boy" my biscuit ). SF is not necessarily any kind of magic bullet (for my H, at least, SF was not a way back "in", it was just...sex)...but it *IS* an opportunity for you to meet your BH's needs and make deposits in his LB$, if he is willing to accept them.

2. That said, be honest with your BH. If the SF continues, and you consistently are feeling used, be honest with him about your feelings. Dr. H said on my thread that SF should be mutually enjoyable - it should not be withdrawing love units.

I make both of these points because they were extremely difficult for me to put into practice during my attempts at Plan A-ing my BH. I struggled particularly with being honest about having SF with H, b/c I was trying to maximize the opportunity to make any deposits in his LB$ (particularly by meeting the only intimate EN he allowed me to meet).

I can't speak from a place of success, b/c my Plan A efforts had little effect, but I can at least point to where I was weakest and where I could have done better.

Another poster here (DNM) gave me the analogy of chucking buckets of sand into a lake. You're on one side of the lake, your BH is on the other. Eventually, you'll have chucked enough sand to where it'll have reached the surface...eventually enough to create an island...eventually, enough to build a bridge to each other (which will happen quicker if he responds and begins chucking buckets of sand into YOUR LB$ lake!). Each time you meet a need, you're chucking a bit of sand into that lake. Think of lovebusters as the erosion of your island/bridge - so along with getting that sand out there, you've got to protect what builds up. The more of your BH's ENs you identify and try to meet, the more sand that gets into the lake.

WPG, I don't always comment on your posts, but I do read them. I just wanted to jump in here to thank you for your commitment in encouraging and helping WW's, and your posts in general. Keep up the good work Sorry for the t/j, BV.

Ok so i know he (finally) got my last letter yesterday. Included the NC letter to OM, list of EP's and all my passwords. NERVOUS nelly right now.

I'm a bit nervous that bringing it all up after the SF on the weekend might be kinda a turn off.

Wrong mindset......
Ok so i know he (finally) got my last letter yesterday

Right mindset......
Ok so i know he got my most recent letter yesterday, and I'm today mailing him another telling him how glorious was the opportunity to spend time as a family, and alone with him, this weekend.

A top saleswoman keeps selling the offer until the deal is closed, BV.

Thanks NG.

Have invited him for dinner again saturday night. I did let him know how wonderful it was... but can see how important it will be to keep doing this. There's no room for complacency here!

Nice, NG.

I'm trying to find the radio clip where Dr. Harley said this very thing.

"Need to be a good salesman"

oooh that'd be interesting.

I'm trying to understand how the WS does the 'plan A' thing. All the explanations on here seem to be from the persepective of the BS doing the plan.

Besides from the SF on sat night i still feel like i'm doing this on my own...

Objection!


Your marriage may not have succeeded in recovering... but YOU, sister, are a one-in-a-million success story.

I ain't gonna take this from you!

You get it, and your BH chose not to recover.

That was his choice.

BV,


This is the illustration of going "Tommy Boy" on your marriage;




The idea is that you let your expectations go overboard, and explode... setting back your efforts.


Patience is key when dealing with we betrayed. We can't buy into your enthusiasm, and are protective from believing/trusting/loving the WS.

Slow, steady, and patient.

OK?

Ok, thanks.

Crazy clip!!!

Hmmm. Its not Plan A, because Plan A is deceptive (waywards cant be trusted with true time scales and snooping methods etc) and it designed for doer to ignore the wayward spouse a lot (they're crazy) and also inflict 'stick' alongside the carrot (exposure, standing up for onesself)

Basically what a repentant wayward does is not a true Plan A, but uses the carrot of Plan A, removes the stick (unless an RA is on the cards). Obviously they also have to be radically honest, so no deception as in Plan A.

While a BS in Plan A can insist on the WS 'doing the right thing' and insisting on efforts to try to save the marriage (or else theyre gone), the WS has to be a lot more freeing, and zen, leaving the choice entirely to the BS and appreciating their pain is a barrier. They also promise not to go anywhere even when it gets tough - to demonstrate sincerity

It's not for the faint hearted. But as DR H says - wild horses wont drag away a truly repentant wayward.

Thanks IndieGirl

I'll read back through the carrot of Plan A.

I don't think a RA is happening... but i can't rule it out because of this contact with certian other single women.

There's one thing i haven't done yet - the only thing - delete my FB a/c... and it's my way of keeping tabs on what might be happening between him and this/these OW. Just yesteterday he 'friended' a new W... don't know her, can't see how he knows her... and it's driving me crazy. But that coupled with his saying two months ago that he was ready to date makes me very nervous.

I know what you guys will say - delete the a/c. But he now has my password for it so can access whenever he wants. I have also listed as one of my EP's that if we were to reconcile i'd have a joint FB a/c. In fact, i would now insist on it. Even though i shouldn't be the one calling the shots ... i just think that's the only way to go. Bl**dy internet is just too dangerous.

Here you go. Carrot and Stick of Plan A

Thanks.

i need to brush up on love busters this weekend i think.

Do you have the book?

Which ones are you guilty of, so we may help you?

hi bv. i see we're in the same country, and that you had a question about the post-nup. you can't get one here. well, you can get a lawyer to *write* one (maybe), but it will not mean anything at all in court. the law here does not accept them, because it's no-fault, 50/50 regardless of circumstances/intent/agreement. i got this straight from the horse's mouth (my own lawyer, whom i trust).

i wish you good luck with your BH.

No i don't have the book but i'll read up on here first.

Thanks Letty, yeah i didn't think you could do that here.

Well last night i found out that there's gossip going around about my H and this OW who is the single mum. It was third hand by the time it got to me and apparently she is 'after him' but the women who told my BFs friend said that she was bad news and really hoped he wouldn't start seeing her.

So i lay awake for 3 hours in the early hours of this morning my brain going crazy. The worst thing about it is that i can't imagine what it would have been like for my H now that i'm on the other side.

I don't believe that he's 'seeing' her yet or that anythings happened but it seems clear what her intentions are. He's coming for dinner tonight and i need to ask him whats going on.. .but i'm so scared :-(

Stay strong, you've come so far.

Look him in the eye and ask him what's up.

BV, do your best Plan A. You don't have control over what he does, only yourself. Stay calm and be at your best.

Thanks BH... i will.

Its time to harden up and ask some difficult questions. No way we can move forward otherwise.

It's so hard thinking i might have to tell him that if he's starting something it will be an affair... i'm sure he will think it isn't. And being the first betrayer... how can i do any of the things in Plan A? Everyone else would think i wouldn't have a right to treat it as an affair.

But no point in thinking that way until i get some confirmation about whats going on i guess.

Urgggh this is horrible :-(

Remember no expectations in Plan A. Look marvelous and ravishing. Be your best.

Hi I have been following your thread. I just kind of wanted to answer your question from above. I divorced my WW quickly after I found out about her cheating so I moved on right away.

I noticed you felt bad about having Sex with your Husband. Even felt a little used. I do not recommend doing it if you feel used. He is your husband so I don't think you should feel used by him.

So If I was your husband and you told me you feel used well that would not sit very well with me. I would say "You sure didn't have a problem with having sex with the OM!" Why would I want to get back with a woman that does not like having sex with me but sure will put our for another man?

I know this sounds harsh but as a Man that is what went through my head. My XWW sure did not seem to like having Sex with me but she sure loved doing it with the OM. When she came to me and asked for another chance I couldn't do it. I was mad at all the times I went to her to try and fix our Sex life. So I went without while she was doing a guy behind my back. I just could not accept that a person that loves someone could do that to them. I would have never treated her that way.

As far as doing it on your own well that is true. You abandoned your husband for another man. Dumped him through him out like a piece of garbage. You have a lot of proving to do before he will believe anything about you. Just think of all the lies you told him. It takes time to get over that.

I think you are doing a great job but I am really impressed with your Husband. He could have moved on a lot farther than he has. You have a short time in my opinion to try and get him back if it is not too late.

You will have to do the heavy lifting and put this in the back of your mind. My XW did kind of the same thing except when I found out I filed for divorce. As far as your husband he is doing it right. He moved on with his life and it will be your job to show him that he should come back to you.

You have done a lot of damage. But it may not be too late. You will have to do some proving to him and who knows you may get another shot. I sure like your attitude now.

Best of luck to you. I know this cannot be easy for you.

I'm so, so sorry BV. You must feel wretched. Its stuff like this that reaffirms my decision not to date while still married - its ALWAYS a troublemaker going after a betrayeds bruised ego. These people relish the idea of busting up an already damaged marriage.

You're right its time to harden up and ask difficult questions. Its time to ignore what enablers and enemies to marriage might say and apply some Art of Wart tactics to the situation. You must be fearless. It is essential that you don't appear helpless and needy to him. If he thinks he can have you both - he will.Plan A carrot and stick in full by calling this what it would be - an affair.

And I speak as a BS who has had her share of vultures seeking to make good on my pain. I know that without MB it would have been highly tempting to have my WH watch on in jealousy. I shudder to think what I escaped.

He clearly has a lot of love for you and you have a real chance. You can't afford to be timid. Art of War: �when weak appear strong"

One thing worth keeping in mind BV, is that your WH probably wants your jealousy - so give it to him sooner rather later!

It is highly flattering to make someone jealous as its a natural response to a threat when we are in love.

What I'm saying is, don't make him feel he has to ramp up his actions in order to make you jealous. Tell him you already are and can't endure any more.

Make it very clear that the pain is already insufferable and that if it were to continue you couldn't be around him as it would be too painful.

As you are a WS that's how I would play it. Not in the form of anger or 'how dare you' but in the shape of 'you're killing me here,please stop it'.

You were pretty assertive about the no-strings sex bothering you so be similarly assertive that you would love to make amends but you can't recover this marriage with an OW on the scene.

If you're worried about being seen as being hypocritical, don't be. If you were a recovered drug user you'd be more confident of telling a new drug user that it was the worst mistake you'd ever made and you don't reccomend it. Its the truth, after all. You are a FORMER wayward, making amends, not a current wayward. You have every right.

Its funny but when I first said I wouldn't date during the separation everyone looked at me like I was crazy. But very quickly when others in similar sitches in town began to date, without even filing for a D etc, they were judged unfavourably in comparison to me. I got them thinking.

You can too. He's spending time with, and having sex with his wife. Its clearly not right he brings an OW into the mix when his marriage can be saved.

And SNOOP

BV,

As I have said before on your thread, I am in a very similar boat as you. My boat is just a little further in the water. I was also very curious about plan A from the wayward side. Just to give you a little advice from personal experience. What I did was really tried to focus on little things that made my H feel happy and safe.

I also focused on some of my small but bad habits that I never seemed to care bothered him before and forced myself to correct them.

I talked to him every day, I was open with him, I made myself completely transparent. Even when he told me that he did not care about me or what I was doing, I let him know anyway. I asked him to come over when he was not living with me. Encouraged him to spend the night. I tried not to use my kids as leverage because that is not fair but I did promote doing things as a family.

I tried to remind him of the little things that we did that meant so much. I did and still fill him with admiration. Something I have discovered is a big deal and very high on his EN list. I told him how much we missed having him at the house and reminded him of little things he did that I missed so much.

Funny story we have a grey, male cat that LOVES my H. While my H was gone, he was so bad and did little mischievous things to show me that he was angry that my H was not there. I told my H about this frequently and we laughed about it. He did not believe it until he actually saw him in action. When my H came back home, he turned back into an angel.

As far as watching your H with OW. I know that a RA does not happen with all As but it did happen to me. Right after my A my H would get drunk and talk about going out and sleeping with someone else just to get back at me. I was a little scared but I knew that this was not his style.

In December when I moved back in (my H kicked me out for three weeks right after the A) I was still foggy, my H was talking about working things out, we were going to a MC, and I didn't even notice the change in his behavior.

In January (January 2nd to be exact) he all of the sudden said he did not want to be with me, he was moving out, and we were done. It took me two more weeks and my son telling me to check the phone records to discover that he had been in a RA since the middle of December.

Now, looking back all of the signs were there but I did not want to see them. I guess what I am saying to you is don't rule it out. Snoop without being too obvious but if you are concerned about something or someone, do not be afraid to find out more. I never thought my H had it in him but I brought him to that place and the OW (who I now know is a three time cheater herself) was able to manipulate my H while he was hurt and vulnerable to do the one thing that he despised more than anything in the world (thanks to myself and his mother).

Sorry I wrote you a book I just really wanted you to see things from someone who was and still is in your place. Good luck BV!! I am here if you have any other questions.

Wow, 15yrs, great post.

Thanks, i appreciate your input. You speak the truth and i still (and will always) need to hear it.

I do feel time pressure here... and the need to get it right this time. It's hilarous to think i was 'trying' last year when i was so foggy. You can't try when you are foggy.

Yeah... he could have moved on much more, and i am very grateful he hasn't. I hope it means he still believes somewhere inside that we can make it - and make it better than ever before.

Thanks again :-)

Thanks Indie Girl.

Well... He came, we talked... and er... well SF again :P But I didn't feel a speck of being 'used' this time. It was different. Maybe because we talked first.

I let him know that i wanted him to tell me what he needs in order to consider reconciliation with me. And that i wanted to meet those needs in my 'doing everything'. He said he didn't really know... and still didn't know if he wanted to get back together. He said he'd met quite a few girls but none of them he was interested in as more than friends. Thats when i told him about the goss i'd heard. He said that he hadn't seen her in over a month... i was crying by now and said that i knew this was nothing compared to what he went through but even the thought of her txting him made my very upset.

He didn't explicidly say that he wanted to give us another chance... but he said he wanted to start at the beginning, as friends... and that he really enjoyed spending time with me.

Funny thing is - some things i'd always felt kinda jealous of, now just make me love him even more. I feel like every time i look at him i'm falling more in love with him - at a completely different level to ever before. He has some amazing quailitys - integrity, honour and self control are at the top. He is truely such a good person and i always felt so 'bad' compared to him but my attitude is changing now.

Good for you!

I don't know if you've read Peps Conflict Avoidance thread, but here was a very tempting opportunity to avoid conflict, and avoid having thing thrown back in your face. But you womaned up and shot that impulse to CA in the eye!

Snoop anyway! I know he is a good person and all, but even good people can have their vulnerabilities exploited. If he doesn't know about the lovebank he won't be able to prevent her making deposits - and you've heard she's predatory. Protect him from this vulture by keeping yourself informed.



This comment intrigued me. My H used to often say I was a better person than him and I never understood. What does it mean?

He didn't explicidly say that he wanted to give
us another chance... but he said he wanted to
start at the beginning, as friends... and that
he really enjoyed spending time with me.

THAT is known around here as a GIFT!

Don't forget for a,second all of those qualities you are falling in love with. Always remember them. As far as being a better person than u, I know exactly how you feel but maybe for a little different reasons. I had my first A when I was 19 and we were only married two years. We didn't deal with it but I always had a feeling that I did not deserve my H and that nothing I could do would ever change what I did. This may be true but what marriage builders has shown me and taught me is that I can be a better person, I can set my boundaries and limits high, that I can respect myself and my marriage. You are doing great, keep it up!

Thanks guys.. i am just about in tears reading through the last few messages.

NG - it truely is a gift.

IndieGirl... i think i just see so many qualities in my H that I admire and want for myself. I know in my head that sin is sin... and since everyone has sinned there is no 'you are better than me' but that's what it always felt like with him getting on with life and me struggling through.

Now i need to go read that thread on conflict avoidance... we used to do that big time. and i also need to read more on love busters... i think i'm guiltly of almost all of them :-(

I must be getting my 'just desserts' because i cannot stop thinking about him and OW... any OW!!!!! There was also a new female friend added on FB last week, who i found out through someone else had an affair with a coworker. I feel like the vultures are surrounding him and there's nothing i can do about it until he decides what he wants :-(

I'm very tempted to go on FB and message the one he's spent time with and tell her not so politely to get lost. But i guess i shouldn't...

He said yesterday that he's keen to go away for a few days by himself. I'm guessing that's to think through things and makes some decisions.

He's still your H, correct? So why not?

Have you read this? I Encourage BH to confront OM

He's still your Husband.

Yea i guess so. But what if nothings happened? What if the gossip i heard about her being after him is just gossip?

Ughhhhhhh

Then I guess you better snoop more. Get creative. What snooping can you do?

What about posting on his FB wall. "I love you my darling Husband" So everyone can see?

Well i'm pretty sure everyone including him would laugh at that... it's just too soon when he hasn't committed to trying to reconcile.

I'm not sure, he hasn't exactly receprecated (sorry can't spell) and provided his passwords.

I could ask my friend who heard the gossip to see what else she could find out?

It's so horrible because i don't want to be accused of snooping when deep down i do trust him... or at least 6 months ago before all of this i did...

Listen to this.
Another excellent radio clip on Dr. Harley explaining forgiveness compared to just compensation.

Radio Clip explaining Just Compensation

MBers don't trust - they verify!

If you 'get accused of snooping' simply say your marriage is everything and you love him and don't want to lose him. Tell him you can always be trusted to watch out for him where vultures are concerned.

Just cause he isn't all in doesn't mean you can't say you are. In fact its vital you do.

Thanks. I will see what i can find out.

any ideas for how to snoop when you don't live together?!?

Well, I'd go back to your friend and try to find the source for this gossip. Where/what/who has been seen - or heard and from whom. She seems to have the inside track. This might give you some tips on where to start.

What do yours and hubbys FB relationship status' say? I take your point about not going OTT with a public declaration of love at this stage, but I would try to find some way of marking your territory. Can you change your profile pic to one of you and him doing something together recently? Then just make a habit of liking stuff he says and then chiming in, using the 'we' word. Stuff like 'remember when we did that hon?' Obviously if you do too much of that it will be OTT, but a sprinkling of it could keep you within the bounds of not scaring him, while sending a clear message to others.

I'd just do some low kew snooping at this stage and ramp it up as and when necessary. I'd start off with checking things add up, for example. These few days away for a start - where is he going? Why? Its fine to show an interest and ask isn�t it? Then verify the truth of what you're being told for yourself.

Mine says 'married'... he has just deleted his... it doesn't say anything :-(

I am def marking my territory, liking everything and commiting as well. I make sure i like everything that this OM likes... pref before her but sometimes i'm not fast enough. GRR.

Have asked my friend for more info so we'll see.

BTW - He knows about this thread (although he doesn't have th elink he will prob remember what my name was from back in Sept) so could easily be reading along - which i'm fine with :-)

Why don't you go on FB and thank your H for 'a fantastic, romantic weekend'? "I loved it - thank you for giving me your 'special gift' (wink wink)"

I think that would just make him angry at this point. I think he's being pretty wary about what he tells his mates about whats happening... and i kinda feel like that would be disrespectful of his not yet deciding that he's giving me another chance.

My plan (the optimistic one) is that when we get back together we will either have a joint FB a/c or not at all. Only way forward i believe.

Read all ur posts my story is so like yours. It was very helpful am much more hopeful now. Going through the same situation but the difference is we still in the same house and share the same room. It's all coming through as he is a very social guy and from the society we come from D is not an option . My daughter has played a very important role in repairing the situation. As when he brings it up and taunts and we don't speak for days she clearly tells him it affects her and she wants her happy home back and he has to stop thinking about the past. He keeps getting bouts but I give him all credit whatever the reason maybe he is trying, so keeping my fingers crossed.

I would highly recommend against tell the (FB) world what it is you are only just working up the courage to tell your BH.

He's going to be as skittish as a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs, until HE makes up his mind about what he believes is his best path.

You want to "thank" him for the weekend? Do it woman-to-man, okay?

Thats NG... i agree completely. Also H is quite a private person when it comes to things like that so it would put him off.

women-to-man sounds good to me :-)

That's fantastic RH and it would be cool if he was taking an interest.

I think you're hitting the right note with FB. It would be weird and uncaring if you sat back and let her 'like' everything and not say anything yourself. But what you're saying about his not commiting himself publicly yet, makes sense.

BV,

Did you get a chance to listen to this clip yet? If so, what did you think?

hmmm did i miss that when you posted it... mustve, sometimes i can't keep up with the posts on here!

Will listen in about an hour and let you know. thanks for the link :-)

P.s. how do you get all these links? Do you have to pay for it...?

That's my little secret. Just kidding.

Everything is free on the site and I get the articles from the article and Q&A sections.

Did I mention they're all free? Love it.

The radio clips are in the radio archives Radio Program

Um when i clicked on that it takes me through to options... 1 year for $49.95 which i guess is USD. I'm fully keen to pay that though... just can't afford it in this months budget! But... i can listen if someone else posts it up, which is kinda weird...

That is strange. There was another poster that was running into the same problem.

Try this. Radio Archives

Did that help?

Awesome!!!! I can't belive i thought i had to pay for it! That's fantastic, thanks so much BrainHurts!

Huge thanks for the link BH. Have listened to a few in last few days and plan to listen to alot more over the weekend.

Update, I'm flying back a day earlier this week. H is picking me up from airport and we are going to the movies together!

Also... he just emailed me and said he'd call tonight to talk about some stuff. Dun dun... now i'm nervous!

Oh good luck honey.

Rooting for you!!

You're very welcome. It's my pleasure.

When he calls tonight be very pleasant and upbeat.

Rooting for you.

Thanks.

I have a major fear that he will be wanting to talk to let me know that he's decided not to pursue reconcillation. But then i wonder why would he agree to going to the movies? Argghhhh my brain is going crazy. I guess i'll know in a few hours.

Ok so i'm no closer to a definitive answer about reconciliation. But i guess thats just the way it has to be for now.

We actually just spoke on the phone for over an hour which is the longest time we've talked for ages. Reminds me of long phone talks before we got married which is kinda nice.

But... he was talking about getting his own place before he makes any decisions. And doing that is still a couple of months away. I knew he wasn't just gonna want to move back in together straight away but part of me hoped he would. I'm petrified of us spending any more time apart because i think it might do more damage - more girls seeing him as single means more vultures...?

Aghhh i'm so frustrated...

What does Dr. Harley say about seperation?

Has anyone on here experienced living seperatley for 6+ months but still managed to recover?

Did you ask him about moving back in?

Dr. Harley says it's a risky chance but must happen if they will not stop affair and/or abuse.

Your situation is different because your BS wants the separation.

We do have some success stories of reconciliation after longer separations even one couple who remarried after their divorce (johnstwin). Mortarman is a poster whom were separated and now recovered.

Did you ever end up writing the Harleys?

I didn't ask him. He was talking about applying for another home loan and said he'd quite like to live by himself for awhile because he's never done that (straight from home to marriage).

I guess it's just frustrating for me cause if he's thinking that he probably does want to get back together but still wants 'space'... well i just don't understand why we can't get on and recover together.

Yes, i did write to them quite awhile ago. Never got a response though... But i figure they are really busy and can't respond to everyone that sends them an email.

Email them again. They have very high spam filters. Notify the mods and they will pass it on.

Make sure you put something in the subject line.

How would you say he responded last time when you admitted to feeling jealous? I think it makes most people feel attractive and desired.

It might be worth trying that again. Say you dont want to rush him but you're afraid living apart will make other women think he is available. You could ask him how he lets women know that he isnt dateable. Not having 'single' on his FB page, but rather keeping it blank, is one thing he is doing. It all has to be respectfully phrased of course. He can choose to respond to your feelings, or not.



BV, even though I know recovery goes more rapidly and more smoothly when living together, I would probably do the same thing your BH is doing.

My WH could show up and do every remorseful action MB requires, and I would still be wary for quite a while. I would want to watch, wait and judge.

Everything might seem good - but everything seemed good before the affair. Then the rug is jolted out from under your feet.

Your recollection of the affair is very different to his. To you it was a gradual slide. To him it was a jolt from good to bad. A jolt he is always waiting for, even when things are good. He will hold you at arms length for a while to see how you do.

Your job is to fill is his lovebank enough so he overcomes those reservations. Also to minimise them by dispalyng safety. Show him there is no ice on the road for him to skid on this time. The road will stay where it's supposed to be, the tyres wont skid and he doesnt need to fear another crash.

As you know, the lovebank is dependant on time. Be patient.

Hi BV,

My instinct as a BH is telling me a few things:

1. On one level your H is testing you? As in "let's see how she takes the news that I want to step out on my own."

2. He is also throwing the idea of being on his own as a way of getting back at you? Here you are a repentant wayward, who he rightfully cannot bring himself to trust quite yet (remember you were once "in love" with another man that wasn't your H), now remorseful and looking to start anew. Your H in his way is angry at you and is possibly subconsciously rooting around for a way to get back at you. What better way than to say "I want to be on my own. Take that." It's a way of sending the message that he potentially "rejects" you (which i do not believe he does actually, bc i really think he is confused. on a level he loves you still else he would not be spending time with you quite simply).

3. Your H may also genuinely be curious about striking out on his own bc he did indeed go from his parents house to you, and is asking himself if that wasn't a mistake? Because look at how things turned out. I married this woman bc i loved her, we had a child together and then look at what happened. Maybe he is thinking that marrying you was a mistake on a level? I'm not saying that that's what I think bc I would trade places in a nanosecond to have a repentant WW like you BV. Really. So perhaps having his own place will allow him the chance to achieve some peace or trial out doing things on his own bc he didn't have that chance before.

4. Your H is trying to insulate and protect himself from further hurt. What better way to do that then to get his own place without you completely in the picture? He has been gravely wounded. Trust me. It is the ultimate blow to a man's mojo (i.e., ego). Your wife fell in love with someone else, had sexual relations with that person and was prepared to throw me and our family away for what? NOW she's changed her mind? Really? "It must be a mirage of some sort. It's just not believable. Why did this happen to me? Am I missing something? Was i meant to be on my own and that is why this happened?"

Underlying all of this with him telling you what he has is his indecision. Honestly your H is not sure what he wants quite frankly. He is rooting around. He is vacillating betw wanting you back and not wanting to be hurt. Bringing you closer and keeping the distance. Getting his own place is symbolic of him trying to protect himself. Why chance that you will not do this to him again. What is that expression? Once bitten, twice shy. Or the first time something happens, shame on you. The second time it happens shame on me. And i entirely agree with indiegirl who basically says what i just did.



And her prescription is dead on! Just bc your H is saying that he might or probably wants his own place does not make it a fait accompli. It hasn't happened yet. You absolutely need to stay engaged in this, realize (another cliche coming) that it is a marathon and not a sprint. Your BH has to realize that he WILL be safe. That you will protect him this time around. He is feeling verrryyy vulnerable. Cant say i blame him. Yet i know that you are in this for the long haul. hang in there! I believe you can do this!!

And I generally do not post too much on other threads unless i feel something reasonating for me. I am no vet able to wield MB advice with aplomb or ease. what i do pride myself on is being able to empathize or "feel" what someone else is going thru. I feel for your H but I also feel for you. A part of me used to feel such anger towards WW now seeking to make amends, bc i would ask "what makes them want to do that? how dare they consider it?" but that was a very selfish part of my brain speaking then. and maybe my jealousy was shining through? as in why couldnt my WW do that? now i have come to realize that your very change of heart is nothing short of miraculous. you have been touched by God in a way. it is something to be cherished, respected and not belittled. Nurtured and encouraged as well. i am rooting for you many times over BV. Be strong!!

SaveMM... thanks so much. It means heaps to have someone believe in me, particulary a BH.

I have woken this morning feeling that i just have to be patient and trust in God in this... trust in His timing. God should be in the driving seat here and i need to allow Him to do the work that needs to be done in both of us so that our marriage doesn't just survive this but OVERCOMES it.

I had major anxiety dreams about my H last night... dreaming that he called me from another city telling me he'd moved there and he was drunk or high!! Crazy stuff.

Anyways, thanks BH, IndieG and SaveMM for your input.

H is picking me up from the airport when I fly in later today and we are going to his parents (where he is still living) for tea and then to the movies!

Excellent opportunity to make deposits in his lovebank.
Keep at it and enjoy the opportunity he has given you.

You're doing fine and you know the drill. Have a good time with your DH and DD.

...i just have to be patient and trust in God in this...

Well, yeah, but it was Bonaparte who pointed out that:

"In war, God favors those countries with the largest armies."

You will be (are?) with BH in person. Work the principles hard. Work the program. Flatter his Mom's cooking; compliment his Dad on the weight he lost. Convince BH that you, Black Violet, are the best possible partner for his future. Do not be too proud to point out the life-long benefit to his daughter of having the bio-parents raise her as a team.

Sell, sell, sell, kiddo. Good luck!

To add here is a radio clip of Dr. Harley explaining how we have to be like a good salesman.
Radio clip on be like a salesperson

Quick update.

Movie date was great! And i ended up staying the night again :-) Feeling very positive. Just a shame he's on crappy shifts while i'm here this time!

Good job. Sounds like you made some more deposits. Slow and steady.

Good job BV! I am happy for you!

Just a shame he's on crappy shifts while i'm here this time!

So you spent some time without him, with your daughter and in-laws? Seems like a great opportunity to display the new BV to all concerned, all having serious influence on FBH.

Wish him a Happy Father's Day.

DITTO !

Thanks NG,

You guys must have a different fathers day date in the US, ours is in September.

Yes, have spend alot of time with his family over last few days. It's been really great. And yea, they are an important tool in our rebuilding.

He came and stayed last night after his shift finished at 1am.

I haven't had a reply to my email which let him know that although i'll respect his wishes to get his own place i'm scared it will push us further apart..

Hope to have lots mroe time together this week.

GRRRR this isn't working again!

Are you sure we don't have to pay for this?

No we shouldn't but I noticed something is wrong with archives right now. Ive emailed asking. I've tried on a couple different computers.

Anyone else notice the same thing?

Here's a FREE tip!


Don't tell your H about your fears.
No love bank deposits there.
Instead, phrase the sentiments as hopes/dreams/goals, etc.

Like this: "My dream is to be as close to you as possible. Physically close. Emotionally close. Spiritually close. As close as possible. That is my desire."

Not like this: "I am afraid,we will grow apart."

One deposits a love unit, the other is an expression of your stress & anxiety.

Make sense?

Thanks Pep... great tip. And makes so much sense.

Hey BH,

In repsonse to your question on the Vultures thread;

Nope i haven't deleted FB a/c yet. It wasn't one of my EP's, my EP about fb stipulated that if/when we got back together we would either have a joint fb a/c or neither of us have one.

The main reason i'm staying on Fb is to have the chat fuction to talk to my H, and to snoop on whats going on with him and other women.

But... as indie correctly pointed out, other guys messaging me is essentially allowing them to meet one of my EN... and i hadn't thought of it that way. I guess i've still got alot to learn after years of having poor/no boundaries with men.

The guy said on sat "would be great to catch up soon" and i haven't replied! I'm very close to just being honest with him and saying that because i'm choosing to save my marriage i don't think it's appropriate to meet/chat with other guys.

Does that approch sound ok or do i need to be harsher/clearer?

I have no interest in this guy, it's more of an annoyance than anything, but i guess a good lesson for me.

This has nothing to do with YOUR EPs - what are your HUSBAND'S EPs? You should not be snooping on him on FB.

You have no reason to be on FaceBook. Shut it down. Don't just suspend it - CANCEL IT.

Husband doesn't have any EP's... he's a)not committed to recovery yet, and b)not on board with MB principles.

In fact i'm really scared that if he does decide he wants to try again that he won't want to use MB principles... i'm pretty sold on all of the MB stuff so don't think i'd want to make trade off's like having seperate FB a/cs.

And what have you learned from this incident? You are still practising poor boundaries around other men.

You have plenty of other ways to chat with your H, but you MUST plug each and every hole that made your affair possible. I don't really understand why haven't you done that yet...

Your EP states that joint or no account. Until then there is NO ACCOUNT. If he decides not to continue to be married to you, you continue with NO ACCOUNT, because it was THE condition that led to YOUR affair. In fact, I would ban FB forever, the joint account is still account and a "window" for the vultures. You may think you are sold to MB, but you are somewhat selective what needs to be done.

I agree with Mrs. Recon, BV.

I was hoping you would have seen your lack of EP on your own, but thank you for being honest.

So now what are you going to do?

Thanks Mrs. Recon & BH.

Actually FB wasn't THE condition that led to my affair. It was definitley an enabler but unfortunatley THE condition was being in a workplace with other males - whilst having very poor/no boundaries.

I am unable to quit my job and live in isolation from other men... so my other option is to work my butt off getting better at boundaries. I personally believe there are many more boundary 'areas' that are more important - the main one is keeping very high boundaries in the workplace.

I am being honest - i AM sold out to MB principles, however i'm not sold on the idea of deleting my fb a/c.... atm. This may and quite probably will change in the future, but for now i'm keeping it. My H has my passwords and can see all of my activity on there, including any chats etc. And keeping it allows me to check on his social life.

Couple of things, BV.

You don't send messages to vultures. You don't worry about vultures feelings. You unfriend. Job done.

If cancelling FB is a EP you promised your BH: THEN DO IT!

I appreciate you're keeping a careful eye out for OW, but cancelling FB shows him you mean what you say.

Your word lost currency when you had an A. Only actions can sell you now.

You promised no FB if you were given another chance. - but you won't get one if its all promises and no actions. All he heard was 'blah blah give me another chance'

He sees you not taking the EPs seriously UNTIL ITS WORTH YOUR WHILE

You can still keep an eye out. You can still tell him OW are not on. But he's going to do what he's going to do.

You have to clean up YOUR side of the street. FIRST

Man, it's been a while:
(Although we need a smilie with the recipient needing more feminine features, I think. Whatever...)

BV, you seem to have forgotten two things:

1)This is an action-biased program. Actions speak; words are worth the paper they're not printed on.
2)You are asking BH to perform extraordinary acts to overlook your betrayal of him, and your vows. You need to IMPRESS him, to OVERWHELM him, to WOW! him with your commitment to safeguarding your own (demonstrably) inadequate boundaries. LOSE THE EFF'ING FACEBOOK ACCOUNT. Not because it's "necessary", but because it's "optional".

Exactly. EPs are unconditional, BV. I am sure your H watches you carefully, every step you take or not take, he can assess your commitment from what you DO or how serious you actually are. Words are told to be cheap around here.

You've been given good advice, are you going to take it? There is no NEED for FB, you can communicate w/H via text or email. Having FB open is another avenue to have contact w/others you don't need to. The world went on before FB existed...

Hey guys thanks for the comments.

Just to clarify... deleting FB was NEVER one of my EP's. The EP about it stated

"joint FB a/c or both don't have one"

obviously there is no point in having a joint FB ac when we are seperated. Does this make sense?

I will be sending that vulture that was pm'ing me a short sharp msge today saying i'm not interested and reiterating that i'm working for reconciliation with my H, and with that in mind, private chats with OM are off the table.

You dont get it.
Even responding to a "vulture" with stay away is just another way to get attention with men.
Get rid of Facebook, it is an addiction you have.

Okay, since you cannot have joint account right now anyway, the other option would be no FB account at all. At that would be EP for your own sake and good.

I know you think in the context of THIS marriage, but let's widen the picture, how about your marriage never recovers and you end up divorced. What about EP's then? Or you end up in another marriage once, what then?

Im sure you will find a way to chat with your husband.

I am surprised that you do not see FB as a threat to you. Makes me wonder, what is really going on?

WHY!!!???

That will simply illicit a response where he defends himself. Leave him the hell alone. If you had a joint account you'd just unfriend! Silently, no big deal.

Since you CAN'T have a joint account the only way to SHOW your EP in action is not to have one.



And is that your goal? To preserve the conditions of a separation? To keep the separation permanent?

If you want to move things on, you need to show him how happily recovered and married BV behaves. How married BV puts her EPs first - even when there's nothing in it for her to do it yet! WOW!

You're supposed to be selling him on these ideas and principles. How can you do that - without doing it?

Do you expect him to commit to recovery BEFORE he sees any reasons to?

Its like agreeing to pay a hefty mortgage without seeing the house first.

So your BH has been looking on while you're chatting with a vulture...

He is unlikely to have been impressed BV.

Unfriend the vulture immediately and really think of getting off FB. If not permanently, for awhile. I was off for several months just because. FB had nothing to do with my A either. My H didn't ask me to get off either, I just needed to get away from everyone knowing my business.

I know why you do not want to get off FB, because you feel this is the only way you can see what your H is doing. But you have to prove that you are trustworthy. Perhaps if you got off it might inspire him to get off or even question you about it. I even think it might stress you out less not keeping an eye on him via FB. Believe me, I know it is hard but it is necessary.

I was impressed w/how you were doing and now you are stubbornly refusing to get rid of FB and not taking the counsel given here. Why would you refuse to do all you can do to prove yourself to your BH? Is FB really worth it? I think not!

I have no idea if he's accessed any of my accounts that i've supplied the passwords for.

Yes, i suppose i should just accept that FB is an addiction for me. I check it everyday and go through the feed to see what's new. I guess my reluctance of going off is that feeling of isolation since everyone i know uses it. And it feels like a 'normal' addiction for everyone!

Yep, you are also right about no response to vulture. It's actually none of his business either.

Ok so i guess i'm now ready to admit that i need to get rid of FB. Now the hard part... doing it.

Thanks for kicking my butt about this guys. It feels like it sucks now but i know i'll thank you for it down the track... just like i did when i finally got my A into G and send NC letter and EP's out. And asked myself... WHY didn't i do this sooner!!!

Who cares?
Do this right now.

BV,
I thought it would be a lot harder as well. I used to be a FB junkie posting pics and writing status updates all of the time. My H and I used to even compete with each other on the number of friends we had.

Now, I barley get on. Don't really give a crap about anyone else's life or what they know about me. I got rid of every male friend I had unless I am related to them. My H completely got rid of his and has mine on his phone. I would not even be on except for my BF is living in Italy and fb is the only way I can keep in touch with her. It was actually my Hs idea for me to get back on but he gets access to my account.

If it wasn't for her and my H suggesting it, I would not be on at all.

So did our kicks in the butt help?

DID YOU GET RID OF FACEBOOK?

I really value keeping in touch with people that have moved away etc... and seeing the photos. But i value my marriage alot more and so i guess that i can do without that type of social interaction for now!

haha there's actually a scientific scale that measures 'facebook addiction' - awesome.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/05/120507102054.htm

Ok so i've been doing some thinking about UA time. I understand that if my H decides to commit to restoring the marriage then Dr. Harley would reccomend 25 hrs a week to begin with.

I need some suggestions of types of things (besides, SF and conversation) that would count here. I'd actually like to start seeking this sort of time now as it feels like we are in a 'dating' phase atm (although neither of us have specifically said this). And i've just read that going to the movies doesn't count!

So what does?

We both like running however since our seperation my H has been doing alot of speedwork and is basically now at the stage where he wouldn't be able to run with me because it would be too slow :-( This has been an excellent source of recreational activity for us in the past - we even did a ultra marathon together!

Any ideas welcome please!

bv, FB makes it very hard to leave them. make sure you've deleted any auto-logins you have, or it'll log you right back in again, reinstating your account and you have to do it all again, grr! this includes your computer's browser(s), any password manager, your phone app, and any other device you use to access it.

keeping in touch and seeing photos can be done without FB. email, flickr, etc. i keep a special album in picasa just for my long-distance family to see what we're up to month to month. i tried using a google site, but they're all technologically hopeless!

i was on FB (even though i hated it) for a long time to keep in touch w/friends and family. was on it all the time. finally got fed up and quit. never looked back. if my friends and family want to reach me, share stuff, they know how! and i know i'm special because they make the effort. yeah, i miss the minutiae of my sister's life, but not my cousin's daily moaning about how tough her (very sweet) life is!

BTW, usa friends, "rooting" here means sex (and not the "lovemaking" kind! so when you say you're rooting for someone i see bv was too kind to mention that

Haha thanks for pointing that out Letty!!!

I'm starting to get more and more sold on the deleting FB thing. After thinking about UA time that's needed neither of us would have any time for the blimmin thing anyways!

Hey another question - how do you do those cool cartoon thingees?

when you click one of the "reply" "quote" "quick quote" boxes, you get a little button bar on top of the posting box. the first one on the left is a smiley face. click on that, and it will open a bigger box with lots of choices!

oh my! how exciting! expect me to use alot more of these!

here's one of my favs...

Starting to..., trying to work on starting to get..., considering to think about... are once again mere words and generally mean that you are not doing anything.

How many do you need? Or should NG perform this again?

I couldn't agree more, BV. What's so difficult?

Why hasnt this been done already?

If getting rid of a silly website gives you even one per cent more of a chance of showing how serious you are, why wasnt FB deleted the minute the seriousness of it was shown to you?

If it had been me, I'd have gotten right on it. I would not have been able to WAIT to show a BH I was serious.

It's clear you're addicted to FB and the easy admiration it provides. It isn't real you know. People just go around 'liking' everything they see, so people will like their stuff back. It's just one big fake-out.

I haven't updated my FB status in months because I'd rather come here and talk about real stuff.

And if the vets thought my FB precautions werent serious enough, or my boundaries in blocking messages not high enough - it would be GONE.

People who matter are people you can speak to on the phone/email or skype.

If you're H knows you at all, I'm sure he didnt buy the whole 'I'll go without FB' promise. Judging by your reaction here, he knows full well how high your addiction to it is, and how long you spend on there. I doubt he feels the marriage is as important to you.

I am sure that if you told him you've ditched it to pledge your seriousness to EPs ahead of time, he would be impressed.

Agreeing with Indie and MrsRecon.

I think you missed my above question.

Have just arrived home from very long day. No fb access at work so didn't get a chance to do anything...

But... i'm about to hit the button that suspends my a/c, again!

Dun dun

BTW... i reckon i'm just as addicted to checking for new posts on here!

Should NG perform this again?

Nahhh, if necessary, NG is going to go with "Bonehead Level 2"

I'd like to see a post AFTER you hit the button. But better yet...why not actually delete your account, instead of just suspending it? Don't you want a joint FB account in the future? You wouldn't use yours, with all the triggers for your BH in it, so just delete the darned thing. And post when you've DONE IT, not when you're ABOUT TO do it.

BTW, you asked about UA activities outside of SF and IC....

Is there a sport/recreational activity that NEITHER of you are good at? Tennis, rowing, dancing, kayaking, cross-country skiing, anything? There is NOTHING that will help tie you together better than struggling to develop skills in a common activity.

For us, during recovery, it was golf, and we still laugh at some of our early excursions. YEARS ago (pre-children, so we're talking paleolithic era here) we took fencing lessons together, and those memories endure.

Intrinsically, there is a satisfaction within humans at becoming proficient (or even just "better") at a discipline. The warm feelings germane to that become associated with the companions while doing so. (Sadly, that's why there are so many affairs that start with "My WS was taking a class....") Anyway, using that principle with full awareness is not somehow "sneaky", but pragmatic and efficient.

Great job, BV! But does "suspend" equate to delete? If not, DELETE IT!

If I was your husband and in recovery stage, I wouldn't care if you were slower, I'd want to spend the time in activity together.

It is suspended, like i've done once before. I don't have the time to go on and save all the photos i need off it now and i was feeling the urgency from everyone to just do it now!

I found the UA thread on here so have some ideas from that too.

Would love us to find a sport we could learn together... just need the buy in from my H.

Have you seen this?

Recreational Enjoyment Inventory

Horseshoe pitching?

yes, i think they are in HNHN? been looking for my copy for days... can't find it. Thanks for the link BH.

OMG here's a better one....

TAXIDERMY!!!!!!!!! ahahahahah

Nothing spells romance more than stuffing a skunk with the one you love!

Who didn't love Pepe le pew?

haha i'm tempted to look up a course on it just for the shear crazyness of it!!!

POJA with your DH. It'll be good practice.

Yea, i would love to start doing POJA... but do you do that even when you aren't officially back together?

Arghh i'm having a bad day. Feel so frustrated and in limbo.

I'm pretty sure some of the reluctance for my H at committing to recovery is me not living here all the time. Yeah... i hear you - thats very obvious. I feel like i'm doing everything possible to try and get a job and it's just not happening!

Sorry for the rant. I just want us both to be committed to recovering our marriage. I guess i just need to be patient.

Yes POJA.

Dr. H recommends. POJA to engaged couples!

Yes patience my dear.

"back home, we got a taxidermy man. he's gonna have a heart attack when he see what i brung 'em!"

good going on the fb acct. now get rid of it. you can google how to export your data in one fell swoop. i think i used the makeusof.com site to follow the instructions. moved all my photos to picasa, but i'm sure you can just d/l them to your HDD as well. you want quick & easy, not photo 1, photo 2, etc.

Oh cool, thanks for the tip Letty. Will explore that option tomorrow.

H coming round soon with a movie.

I'm not in the best mood though. Have been crying on and off ever since leaving work. Grrr

well, wipe them tears, put on some nice perfume, and get ready to please him with the no facebook EP!

Wrong mindset:
Would love us to find a sport we could learn together... just need the buy in from my H.

Right mindset:
Will find a sport we could learn together... will present a half-dozen researched options to my H.

Thanks NG... at least you didn't 2x4 me with that one.

I like your emphasis on the from/to as well. Taker vs giver.

Well, great night. We talked quite a bit too. He said he's no where near ready to move back in with me but feels like we are making good progress.

I ended up crying (again) and said it was because i still feel so lonely.

I asked him what else he needed me to do... he said 'for what', and i said for him to commit to reconciliation. He said how is that defined.... and i said by moving back together. Maybe i'm wrong about this though...? I think it's more about it not being a secret between us that we are 'seeing' each other...?

Anyways I told him about getting rid of fb and he was like 'why?!' and i said because i'm getting annoying OM message me and that it was a MB reccomendation. He thought it would increase my anxiety around him and OW!!! But he also said that he's deleted a couple of the OW he'd friended over the last few months. Not the main one though, i didn't ask why, but having her still on there IS a source of anxiety for me. He did say that she was the least of my worries though.

So another thing he said was that i needed to sort myself financially (before he commits?). I absolutely know that the reason i've had to spend about 6k on flights is because of MY actions but this is still so frustrating.

Anyways... thats all for now.

Are you trying to Plan A him? Try and do your best not to get so emotional and cry in front of him. If you need anti-anxiety meds from the doctor, eat chocolate, whatever it takes! Exercise relieves stress and makes you feel better, it might help.

You're on the right path. Have you talked with him about his seeing other women? Don't be afraid of his reaction as if you don't have the right to ask it, you're married to him, that gives you the right!

Hmm. Try to keep this in check. I know this must be so hard, but neediness is a lovebuster. Its basically the same as saying that he faces an unpleasant result whenever he does not do what you wish/need. If he feels unready at any point, and thinks he's going to see a lot of weepiness as a result, he's just going to avoid you.



You're talking way past what he is able to see. His lovebank is so much lower than yours is, it's like asking a guy on the 12th date to marry you. You need to concentrate on smaller goals.

Moving back in - and being publicly married again would be huge successes. So by all means tell him you want those things, and ask for pointers.... but don't EXPECT them. You're willing to go at his pace, ok?



This is amazing. You have to surprise him, you have to raise the bar higher than he expects, in order to nudge up that lovebank. I think you achieved that.



Tell him. It's nice when people love us enough to get jealous. You cant, and should not, demand anything but by all means let him know you'd LOVE it if she was deleted.

I agree with the others. I would lovingly ask him to delete OW.

I would love it if you deleted OW.

My H and I love giving each other foot massages. We do usually do it during a TV show that we both like. I know that TV and movies don't count as true UA time but we have actually gotten excited and planned a "date" night on the couch watching Dexter and rubbing each others feet. We then talk about Dexter together and sometimes a little making out is in the mix

We also like to grocery shop together. We used to do it all of the time and got away from it. Now we are starting to do it again.

Planning dinner together. Each of you decide to make something and then make it together.


While taxidermy sounds tempting we have taken up swimming this summer. Maybe we will try stuffing skunks in the winter...lol

Thanks guys.

Yea i will try harder at keeping neediness in check.

Yes, i def will ask him to delete OW, but just choose the right moment. I was VERY encouraged to hear he had deleted some of the other ones too... felt like a big step towards building a future with me - or at least even seriously considering it! I guess it's that sort of thing - and going public with being back together means more to me than SF in secret!

One of my most favorite lines from one of my most favorite movies!

We do massages heaps too. My H LOVES them... more than i do! And yes, normally for us it's while watching a fav program or movie - btw - we LOVE dexter too!

Mine too! Still one of the best.

My new fav is The Walking Dead though!

BV, I think you are a nice person who made a terrible decision, but may I?


Stop it. Stop the crying to your husband. Here's how I'll bet he reads that: "She screwed around on me, and now she's crying about her loneliness because of that??"
If I were your husband I would view your tears as part remorse, part manipulation. I think that's not what you want to convey, but that's what I would take from your tears if I were your husband. (Gentlemen, feel free to jump in here if you have a male point of point that might add to this discussion.)

mb, I made a couple of changes to your assessment from my point of view, but, by and large, spot on.

Knock out the pity parties in his presence, BV. If you feel the overwhelming need to have one, have it here or with a girlfriend. Remember, it's his interpretation of your intentions and actions that truly matter, not yours.

Hey thanks for the input TigerWes.

I truely truly did not mean to be manipulative at all. But i get your point. What I meant doesn't matter, what he interprets does.

I think i need to harden the fleep up and grow some B***s for the most part. I really have no right to be crying over this. It's actually quite pathetic when i think about it. I should be flippen grateful he's even hanging out with me!

Also, a quick note re anti-anxiety meds... i have been on citalipram for about 5 years now

Unfortuantley both my H and I believe that the medication has actually assisted my selfish/don't give a crap behaviour. So i've been working hard at reducing the amount i'm on so that i can actually feel things again.

There's an excellent article one of our national magazines published on these typees of meds and how they can have this effect on people.

Hmmm, uh, yeah, purty much??????

off topic: so pleased my quote was known! i too adore the walking dead! i'm teaching it to my media class this year. my sister tapes the episodes and sends the to me on USA time, thank goodness. booo to geoblocking!

get those pix done yet?

you're doing well that he's seeing you, bv. don't get too hasty. you're the one who has experienced the whole thing, ya know? he needs to process, and get to a place where he can heal, hopefully with you.

I have been on anti-anxiety med for over four years now, Buspar (buspirone), it's in a class of it's own and doesn't have the side effects some of the others do. I am still able to feel everything, it just takes enough of the edge off that it's more dealable. I had to ask my doctor for it because he tried to put me on Valium, which I did NOT want to take (addictive and makes me sleepy).