So, here goes...
I have never posted here or on any other board in my life.
We have been married for 5 years. We made a choice to have kids right out of the gate so our oldest is also 5 years old. We also decided that my wife would leave her job in a well paying technical field to be a stay at home mom to raise the child. All good right? Second kid comes along 2 years later and things are still chugging along fine. A single income with 2 kids isn't the easiest but we are making it work. In April, my wife tells me that she is not happy with things. She thinks she needs to go back to work. Ok, this wasn't part of the plan since the kids weren't even in school yet but I kind of see where she is coming from. The daily conversations with a the 2 and 4 year old aren't exactly the most fulfilling. I ask her what the way forward is and she says that we just sit tight until September and she will look for work once the oldest child is in kindergarten and the younger one can get into preschool.

A month later, I really start to notice that something is just not "right" so I ask what is the story and she says that our marriage is dead and she needs some space. She is so tired of being needed all of the time and having to do everything for everyone. I asked her what her ideal life would be like and she said that she saw herself living by herself somewhere else. The plan now was to find a job and move into her own place as soon as that happened. Until then, there was nothing to so but wait. Tell me you don't see where this is headed.

About a week later while I was away for work, she moves into the spare bedroom.

This whole time I am thinking that this unfulfilling lifestyle that she is in is the cause of her unhappiness. Once we get the kids in school and out of her hair and she finds work where she can have a conversation with someone who is able to compoets a sentence things will have to feel different. I am recognizing that things aren't going great between us and maybe a weekend away from the family might do her some good. A funeral for a family member that I have never met comes up so I encourage her to attend by herself which she does. Then a wedding for a childhood friend comes up. Again, someone I have never met. I had a work commitment right around the same time so I encourage her to attend alone which she does. Again, tell me you don't see where this is leading.

I spend the summer doing all of the wrong things by asking her a million questions, I am super emotional, I am begging her to let me know what I can do to try to fix things. It is all driving her mad but I tell her that I need to deal with this situation by talking. I finally schedule a MC session in July. I was brought up to see therapy as a big weakness so this was difficult for me to do. Needless to say, the MC does not go as I had envisioned. We are meeting weekly and things seem to get worse if that is even possible.

In August we are on vacation and in bed (with a wall of pillows separating us) when the cell phone beeps. It is an incoming text. Hmm, that's kind of odd. I think I had sent one text message in my life up to that point and as far as I could tell the wife was about at the same level. I jump up and read it. It doesn't make any sense to me so I ask the wife who is now breathing down my neck. She says it was probably just an ad from the phone co. Hmm, kind of an odd thing for the phone company to say in a text. Wife goes to use the bathroom an I check the history and that is when the mushroom cloud goes off. You are never going to guess it. Ok, I'll give you a hint. WS was not at the wedding by herself. I know. You never saw that coming.

WS gets out of the bathroom and I ask her if there was anything she wanted to tell me about the wedding. Nope.

After a few more questions it was more obvious that her cover was blown. I confirmed that it was a PA. WS says it was one visit and a few emails and a phone call once a month. I honestly don't think I was all that surprised and in a way it explained why the MC wasn't really going anywhere. What really bugged me was that she was continuing to lie to me even after I knew about the affair.

I was pretty emotional at that time and I probably wasn't thinking too rationally. We had a pretty heated discussion that afternoon where I gave her th "bad dog" speech and told her that she should be ashamed of what she did to me and to our marriage. She responded by taking her ring off and walking off. I talked her down out of the tree and got her to put the ring back on. Small victory. The lies continued and I made a decision that you all may not agree with. I hacked into her laptop and found a secret email account. I hacked into that account and discovered that this A had been going on since February and I would estimate between 5000 and 10000 emails were sent back and forth. Phone calls were almost daily and oh yeah, they met up at the funeral also! Nothing like a wake to get you in the mood.

WS finds out about me hacking into the computer and goes ballistic. Says that this is the last nail in the coffin.

I have to say that right up to D-day I always thought that would really be it for me. I could never accept or forgive an A. That feeling lasted for about 48 hours and I realized that I still loved my wife, I just needed to find her again and swap her with this "alien" that had replaced her.

MC continues for about 4 more weeks until the therapist gets WS to tell me that it is over and I need to move on. So, basically 2.5 months of MC and no effort was made other than to try to get me to come to terms with things. So frustrating. The last joint MC session, WS tells me it is too late to do anything.

The next day I find out about MB and I start to stumble my way through plan A. Things start to pick up some. We are talking about stuff, not us which has been the only topic for months. For the past month or so, I have been pushing myself to really try to be the person I think I am and I am making some big strides. WS is noticing but I really don't know if it is going to lead anywhere. The A continues but with some boundaries. I need some help on this one. WS is still not working yet. We are still in an in- house separation. WS is still communicating w/ OM. I realize that I can not stop WW from emailing/phoning OM but I can insist there be no face to face contact which was no real huge victory since this OM lives a 3 hr flight away. I have 2 small kids that still need their mom and if WS were to be asked to move out, the kids' lives would be turned upside-down. Am I just enabling this A to happen?

I have exposed to all of the close relatives and they all support me including WS parents.

What do I do now? WS is going to begin working at some point and I am sure will be moving out shortly after. WS has said she does not want a D. I think she wants to do the have her cake and eat it too thing. She envisions a situation where we all get along and act like a family when it is covenient for her and then she cam retire to her own place when she feels like it. I feel like if she does move out that is one big step away from recociling. I realize that I can't get anywhere while this A is going on. What am I doing wrong?

Sorry for the length. I guess I had a bit to say. Also, appologies in advance for any spelling errors. This auto-correct thing stinks.

Thank you for reading.

Welcome to MB,

Snooping = GOOD ....nobody is going to get on your for that here. She has a right to privacy but not to secrecy. This is war.


Until the affair is dead....there is no progress.

Have you exposed on OM's side of the fence?

What do you know about OM? It's often easier to get the OM to dump a ww than getting a ww to dump an OM. OM can move on to other fish in the sea once you step up and make dating your wife more trouble than it's worth.

Oh...and don't worry about feeling bad that OM ended and not WW because it doesn't matter how it ends as long as it ends. Again...there is no progress until the affair is busted up.

We can help you.

Mr. W

p.s. - on the backside you've got to protect your legal rights with regards to custody should you end up divorced at the end of this. You say she wants to stay married (which is odd but not unheard as many WW can't think past their next OM fix) but has she discussed separating and custody during that?

SS,

You have the right and I must say the obligation to your marriage to insist on NC with OM starting now. If she moves out, ok. Keep the kids with you. Her fantasy lives bc she can still talk and see OM on FB. NC is the next step after exposure.

Don't ask....demand it. If she refuses....Plan B may be in your future.

Stay strong, the next few months are going to be tough.

Keep posting.

Mr. W,
OM has been in the "process of divorce" for 3 years. I am told that they have now filed and waiting for a court date. OMW knows about A and actually called WW about 6 weeks ago. WW gave just answered the questions. Nothing more. OM is an old highschool BF, has a 10 year old kid, works nights, smokes, is in school now to get a degree he never had the chance for before??, cheats on his wife with married women, other than that I don't know too much about this OM. WW sYs she loves him and doesn't love me anymore. I feel like with the recent plan A action I have been taking, I am now just up to "good friend" status with WW .

I have talked with a lawyer and was told that joint visitation is most likely what would finally happen. WW has said repeatedly that she has no intention of moving out of the local area and she recognizes the value of both parents being involved in kids lives. Logistics would keep the kids here at the house with me during the week if WW were to move out so I guess I have that in my back pocket.

Thanks for the response.

I talked with WW about if she was able to NC with OM and she said that she would move out if I demanded that. The way I looked at it and I still don't know if I went down the right path or not was that the kids are benefiting from having their mom at home, their lives are still intact at least for the moment, I can plan A much better while she is in the house. I felt that the compromise we made where there would be no physical contact would be of value. WW and OM had 2 weekends planned that I squashed when I found out about the A. I feel like giving her the boot right now while WW is still not employed would really impact my plan A. Yes, I do think plan B may be coming. I really wanted to push the plan A for a while to show her changes and what I was capable of. I am realizing my role in how we have gotten to where we are and I am working on fixing some of my issues (seasonal depression/anger issues), living more for today and not just for tomorrow, being more proactive about things in life, doing more of my share of things at the house, resolving conflict with me and my mom an me and my sister... I have been working. I am still very motivated to make this work somehow. This is the most important thing along with the well being of the kids.

Sorry your here SS. Your not alone. Amazing how stories are so similar. Praying for your kids, you, and your WW.

God bless you and stay positive. Let your actions control your feelings, not your feelings controlling your actions. Stay the better person, it is hard(I can't do it very good).

Funny how you said you patched things up with your Mom, I did/am doing the same thing. God has helped me more than anything.

Funny thing, my wife got with her HS BF......just he is still in HS. LOL Keep your head up, your doing great!

I am puzzled by WW consistently saying that she isn't sure that marriage is right for her. She has said that she feels like she needs to be on her own and doesn't like the need to have to compromise that comes with being married. WW has said told me that she has no intention of marrying OM or anyone else for that matter so I think thT is part of why she says that she doesn't want a D. I have asked her to seek professional guidance on this topic if not for us then for her. WW says that she can't do any type of solo therapy while she is still living here (too many inputs to process things properly). WW was married once before right out of college. That one lasted about 3 years I think. My hope is that my issues and being disengaged from the marriage were major contributors to how we got here. I say that because I can affect those things. I am changing. If the real problem is her not being able to cope with being married is the issue, I don't know what I can really do about us in that case.

I think about all of the long term dreams I have for the two of us and for the family and it really breaks my heart. I feel like I really sacrificed things to get through this tough part of the marriage (kids being born, living on one income, kids still too young to do some of the adventures we both enjoy). Right when we get over this hump, things fall apart. So sad.

Thanking for your thoughts. I know what you mean. I read some posts or things in dr. H books and think that our house has been bugged.

My parents divorced about 18 years ago and I never really resolved things with my mom. This thing I have going on now has given me the kick to tackle that issue and others. We have cleared things up and now talk about 5 days per week. Focus on what is working right?

I hear you loud and clear! My WW said the same thing, "I don't want to be married". She loves me and the kids, but doesn't want to keep the family? I just want to shake her and wake her up!

From what I've read on here, it will take some time. They talk about the WS in a fog, sound familiar?

You might want to look into getting some books, His Needs/Her Needs, Love Busters, Surviving an Affair, and there is a couple more. It is some good info. **edit**

**edit** She will read harry potter in one sitting, but to help herself/us, just too hard. Maybe her broom is rubbing her the wrong way. ;-) Just a joke.

Exactly, surround yourself with people who want to help and are loving and want to save the family.

**edit**

Your WW has a few little problems in her foggy little world: she has no single source of income if she moves out. And she'd be moving out without her children. Make sure she understands that.

I certainly hope you're not sitting by, watching her texting or talking to this guy. I would make it impossible for them to do so while. Tell her that she will not abuse you by doing so. Follow her around when she is on the phone with him and let her know loud and clear that she is not to talk to her fellow adulterer in front of you. She is not to do it in front of the children, either.

I would be very inclined to drop that phone in the toilet if I were you. You're paying for it, right? So it's yours to do with what you wish, correct?

So he's divorcing, is he? Have you confirmed this directly with his wife?

I would get to the bank asap - if you can do it online, so much the better. Move your money so she can't access it. Waywards have been known to clean out bank accounts to finance their affair.

Get the credit cards from her. You want to choke off all avenues she can use to get money.

Let her know that there will be no happy divorce for the two of you. You will file against her and cite adultery. Her co-adulterer will be called in to court and be forced to give testimony concerning his nasty actions in destroying your marriage. You will go for full custody of the kids and limited visitation for her. You will make it a stipulation that they are not to be exposed to her boyfriend. Boyfriends have been known to abuse their girlfriend's children. That's not going to happen to your kids.

You will help her financially in NO WAY to support her swingin' single lifestyle so she can crawl in the gutter with a man who is not her husband.

Do NOT tell her about this site. Do NOT try to educate her at this point. You can't educate a wayward. Do NOT tell her you're snooping.

Now that I've said all that: continue to be your pleasant self around her for anything that does not concern the affair. Read up on Plan A (I think you mentioned that you had done so already) and work that plan.

You can NOT believe anything that a WS tells you. Her "Promise" to not let this go PA anymore, seriously? Did she not take VOWS on your wedding day to do just that? It was just something to allow her to continue contact with OM.

Speaking of contacting OM, how does your WW do that? If it is a cell phone, and you pay the bill, disconnect it. Could she go out and buy a new one, sure, but you would have shown that you are not going to allow that to happen in your home. If she contact him over the internet, then you get rid of that too.

Have you read the Carrot and Stick of Plan A? You need to do ALL of it.

Also, you need to find out OM's info. Get it exposed on BOTH sides. Tell anyone and everyone who would have influence over them both.

WW is in thick fog. Things she is doing and saying are totally self centered. She says things like she could never abandon the kids but wants to move out with the knowledge that she will have pretty limited face time with them.

I have burned through HNHN and SAA and am cranking through LB right now. I am wondering about whether there is a right time to introduce those books to the WW. Plan A is supposed to be somewhat of a covert op so to speak if I understand things right. The guidance for a plan A is for it to have a tome limit. If the WW reads about that wouldn't she just perceive the PlanA as contrived? Not sure.

You are in a war for your marriage, sir. You do not expose your battle plans to the enemy. Say nothing to her about the books or this site.

Your wife is currently wayward. You cannot educate someone who is wayward. Don't even attempt it - it will backfire. Her ability to reason is completely compromised right now.

Please read this if you haven't yet:
Plan A Carrot and Stick

Thanks for clearing that part up. I am guessing there will be a time (hopefully) that WW will want to try to work on us but it looks like that is way down the road.

We use a pay as you go cell phone. Right now I am using that to snoop any texts that do come through. Not many of those. Most of the communication is through email and OM will call in to the house. I didn't think getting rid of all communication to/from the house with small children here was in their best interest. What if there is a need to dial 911?

I have been through the carrot and stick thread. Very helpful.

Any communication with OM is done discretely when I am not around.

You can't call 911 on your cell phone? It will jump to the nearest available tower, but the dispatcher can route it to a local emergency service.

You can also program the phone numbers for local emergency services into your phones.

I'd get rid of the land line. You can always get it reinstalled after the affair is busted up if you're still worried about 911 service.

ShortSleves, Listen to these wonderful people on here. They are a wealth of information and guidence and support.

I too am going through a very similar situation. Very fustrating I know. That darn fog makes you want to scream at times.

Hang in there, follow the advice on here. I will say a prayer for you and your children today.

Take care.

Hi Mr SS, welcome to Marriage Builders. This is where I would start. I would call the OM's wife TODAY and tell her all about the affair. That should be done without forewarning your wife. It sounds like your wife and the OM have been gaslighting her.

This is called fogbabble. She's saying all of this to justify her affair.

I suspect she didn't talk this way before OM came into the picture. She doesn't want a D because she wants to have it all: the security of family, your money, and the OM. This is called cake-eating.

There's no reason for either of you to waste money on therapy when you already know what the problem is: her affair. Therapy will actually be counter-productive. Therapists will typically tell a wayward to 'find themselves' or 'follow their dream' and other garbage like that.

It's always good to take a personal inventory and work on bettering yourself. But remember that you didn't MAKE WW have an affair. She decided that on her own.

SS, I would also demand that she end contact with the OM NOW. Demand it. Her threat to move out is an idle threat to scare you from making such a demand. And if she did move out, which they never do, you would be in a much better position legally. If she threatens to leave, let her leave, but don't allow her to take the kids. But it will take a DEMAND to get her to do it.

I would paint a very ugly picture of how divorce will look for her. This will give her second thoughts because she is under the impression now that you will roll over without complaint. This feeds her fantasy of replacing you with the OM with ease. I assure you this is her plan. Tell her if this goes to divorce you will be filing for primary custody on grounds of adultery and taking full possession of the house. Even in no-fault states they do take adultery into consideration because it speaks to their fitness. Tell her oyu will be having the OM subpoenaed to testify about the affair along with his wife.

But I would get ahold of his wife ASAP and have a discussion with her. "Getting divorced" = MARRIED. He is a married man.

"Granted, there are situations when demands may be necessary in marriage. During a spouse's affair, for example, I recommend that the betrayed spouse demand there be no contact with the lover. If there is continued contact, separation or even divorce would be the logical consequence. While normally demands don't work, in this case there are no reasonable alternatives because thoughtful requests are even less likely to separate lovers."
Dr. Harley Effective Marriage Counseling pg 94

OM is supposed divorcing 1000 miles away and has a 10 year old he's not likely to move a 1000 miles away from. Conversely, your wife isn't moving a 1000 miles away from her kids either....so they have a doomed relationship and they know it. Thus they continue their fantasy in day to day mode. She knows it has to end....just not when. Heck...if she was separated she could just keep this going (by email, skype and phone) indefinitely.

It's time to start bringing less carrot (still bringing some) and more stick. So what if she says she'll move out if you demand she go "no contact" with OM. The cage door is certainly open. I doubt she'll follow through (she's just hoping the threat buys her a few more days/weeks and it's working for her, isn't it?). Actually moving out takes time AND money. By that time you'll be ready for Plan B anyway.

The road to intimacy is paved with conflict. While demonstrating your changes you're also going to have to man up a bit and fight this affair more aggressively. Continuing listening however, don't actually believe any of that "maybe I just don't want to be married anymore or ever again" crap. It's all fog talk. Once the affair is busted up and she's through a few weeks of withdrawal...all those "feelings" she's experiencing will disappear. Ignore fog talk, Learn to fog respond to her and just keep her talking (meeting the need for communication, admiration if you can and keeping her mind and time off of OM).

When she says: I need space, you say, I'll clear you some space in the garage or in the basement, but I'm not going to support you moving out.

Mr. W

p.s. - I was in a similar, OM 500 miles away and an old high school/college boyfriend. My MIL called OM (she knew OM and his parents) and she basically threatened him and made him dump my wife. Perhaps your inlaws will take more direct involvement and send an email or call OM making sure he knows he's not welcome in their family or around their grandchildren. After OM dumped her she wanted to travel to see if she could save it...I just said "NO" and left it at that. You can say "no" without explanation.

You are not separated if you live in the same house. "in house separation" is an oxymoron. If she really wants to be "separated" she should leave but this is not a separation. And even so, separated still means MARRIED.

^^^^ AGREE


and when you make this demand...be prepared to be the first one at the bank the next morning moving all or most (at least 3/4 ...1/4 for each member of your family not your wife) of the families joint monies into an individual account for protection. Also be prepared to cancel all joint credit cards. Be ready to play hardball and cut off her financial ability to stay in contact with OM. Remember what I said above...they are a 1000 miles away from each other and both have small children. They KNOW it has to end but just want ONE MORE DAY...like any addict...you have to up the cost of ONE MORE DAY to the point they are finally ready (or have to) quit.


How "supportive" are your in-laws? You may want to have one of them on standby after you confront her and demand "no contact" NOW as support for you and your family that can help her process that ....YES, today it's over....why not end it TODAY.

W

SS,

Listen to the Vets....they know what they are talking about. They helped me.

We are all here for you. Demand the NC, snoop and snoop some more, I bet you will find more land mines. It is going to get tough, the ride you are on is not a fun one. Check back here often with updates and for encouragement. You can start to save your marriage.

Expose and Demand NC...... Without those two, you are swimming upstream.

I was just thinking it was important to have some form of communication with the outside world should an emergency arise. If I get rid of the phone/internet/cell phone, I am not sure I would feel right with small kids at home and no way to call the fire dept. I am now seeing that I need to take more action on that. I also just figured that WW would just pick up a cell phone for herself if I eliminated the land line and the pay as you go phone. WW has savings for a phone if she needs one.

Funny you say that the counselor will suggest WW to find herself or follow her dream. I think the phrase our MC used was that WW needed to do some "soul searching".

I was just acknowledging that I am not a perfect husband and I did make some mistakes. Yes, that does in no way justify what WW has done/said to me.

I have exposed the A to my in-laws and they are behind me 100%. When they first learned about things my FIL was ready to dis-own WW. They have already made an appointment to have their will re-written. I can ask them if they would be up to a chat with this OM.

On a side note, does it make any sense for me to contact OM? Is he going to even listen to me? I didn't really think that it would be much use.

I think I screwed up that last post. I put some comments in the middle of Mr. W's message. Like I said today was the first time I have ever posted on a news group. I am learning.

There is a special place in heaven for you people. I can not believe the response I have gotten. I can't keep up with all of you. Keep it coming!!!

Thank you.

Did you read my posts?

The whole snoop thing. I feel like I got burned when she found out I got into her email back in August. Yes, I did find out information that was being withheld but it cost me a great deal of her trust. If I am supposed to be the shining light of pure goodness or whatever you want to call it, wouldn't snooping (and getting caught) just put me in the same category of WW? I know Dr. H's views on snooping. It just feels so wrong to me. The other thing is you might find things like the inquiry into a risque super sexy professional photo shoot at a studio nearby that comes with a black leather book to give as a gift. I don't expect to see a copy under the tree with my name on it. Now I just have to try to erase the thought of her wanting to do something like that for the OM.

SS, it is not rational thinking to believe that snooping is untrustworthy behavior. It I untrustworthy to lie and commit adultery, it is not untrustworthy to CATCH someone lying and cheating. No married person has the right to the privacy to hide things from her spouse. You have a right to know everything she does because everything she does affects you.

Are you ignoring my posts?

Think of it in terms of espionage. Spying on your neighbor is wrong. You wouldn't peep through their windows, bug their phones, keep track of where they go for any good reason. Spying on a country that is detrimental to another country's well being is not wrong. It provides security for the country, ensures that you are protected and prepared.

Right now your spouse is acting as a double agent. She is pretending to be in your marriage, but is in fact playing for the other team. She is an agent of harm to your marriage and the less information you collect on this is potentially marriage shattering. Finding out and exposing helps neutralize the threat to your marriage.

Think of it in terms of espionage. Spying on your neighbor is wrong. You wouldn't peep through their windows, bug their phones, keep track of where they go for any good reason. Spying on a country that is detrimental to another country's well being is not wrong. It provides security for the country, ensures that you are protected and prepared.

Right now your spouse is acting as a double agent. She is pretending to be in your marriage, but is in fact playing for the other team. She is an agent of harm to your marriage and the less information you collect on this is potentially marriage shattering. Finding out and exposing helps neutralize the threat to your marriage. [/quote]

[/quote]

Another thing to consider is this. You took vows based on your love for her. To protect her. Sometimes that means to protect her from herself. This is part of protecting her. So what if she caught you snooping in her email in August. She is in trouble and doesn't even know it. What is wrong is knowing that she is destroying your family and doing nothing.

I agree with you. WW does have a happy image in her head of life after separation. I will paint a more realistic picture for her. Part of the problem for WW is her first M ended very quickly and amicably. Very easy on WW. They were in agreement, they both wanted out, and there were no kids involved. I am thinking that WW is using that as a frame of reference for this separation. The house is in my sole name so that shouldn't be an issue. I like what you say about the whole primary custody thing as well. I don't like the idea of using the kids as leverage but they are a very powerful influence on parents. I do feel like that my WW is someone who if they feel like they are getting cornered, they will react very strongly which scares me. WW is a very capable woman. We are getting along now but you are right, the A continues.

ML,

I am reading every word you write. I am honored that you are responding to my problem. Thank you!

I agree. There is a big difference between privacy and secrets. I try to honor people's privacy but secrets between spouses is a different animal all together.

Puhleeeze!



Puhleeeze!


Gathering accurate facts and data on the state of your marriage is in the SAME category as CHEATING/LYING/SCREWING AROUND ?????

Really?
On what planet?



It's like checking the math on your phone bill for accuracy.
It's NOT snooping.
It is fact-checking and getting accurate truthful data when you KNOW your spouse is lying to cover up their wrong deeds.





Mods. here I come.

[/quote]

Another thing to consider is this. You took vows based on your love for her. To protect her. Sometimes that means to protect her from herself. This is part of protecting her. So what if she caught you snooping in her email in August. She is in trouble and doesn't even know it. What is wrong is knowing that she is destroying your family and doing nothing. [/quote]

I love analogies and I think yours is spot on. That makes sense to me. You are right, who better to step in and save her from herself than me?

I am hearing you all now. I guess I was in my own fog. This is exactly the kind of sanity check I was looking for. Thank you.

Did you read what I said about DEMANDING she end her affair? And about calling the OM's wife? I predict that may end this affair very quickly.

The goal is not for you to get along, SS, but for you to save your marriage. Going along to get along will cause you to lose your marriage. I am afraid your complacence gives the impression you don't care very much.

It will take a much more aggressive approach to kill her affair than what you have demonstrated so far.

Spot on!

SS, you do understand that the goal here is not to appease your foggy wife, don't you? The way to save your marriage is to kill her affair. I don't see much towards that goal here at all.

Please call the OM's wife today. Please DEMAND that your wife end her affair TODAY. Tell her this will be very ugly if it doesn't stop. If you want to save this, you need to get to work, Sir!

I guess my fear up to this point was if I pushed to hard it would be the last I ever saw of her. I was telling myself that hey, at least she is still in the house, that is worth something right? Sounds like just not really worth much in the big scheme.

Yeah. It's worth something to your WW.
It makes WW happy to have the attention of her husband and her OM without any interference on your part.
She would choose to enjoy that senario for years, and years, and years.

The longer you allow her adultery to go unchallenged, the more WW thinks her behavior is acceptable to you.

I have a number for the OM but he is not living with OMW. I will start searching for a number online. Other than filling her in on the little I know about what is going on, are there specifics I should talk with OMW about?

Your strategy is the one most likely to lead to divorce, though. As long as the affair is allowed to go on unimpeded, your marriage erodes further and further and her affair gets stronger and stronger. Your marriage can survive her temporary anger at exposure/interference, it cant survive an ongoing affair. Not only that, but your complacent approach gives her the impression you don't care very much. That you can't be bothered to fight for her.

Your best hope lies in killing this affair and making it so difficult that the OM dumps her. I would be calling the OMW, exposing to the OM's facebook contacts, raising holy hell. The OM is not going to risk his marriage and his reputation over some cheap side nookey, I assure you. If you raise holy hell, he will likely dump your wife.

I would go find his facebook page, make a copy of his contacts and after you expose to his wife, start sending out PM's to his family and married friends. Space them out 60 seconds apart so fb does not shut you down for flooding. Here is a template letter you can use:

Dear friend of Skankyhola,

It is with great regret that I send this letter but I believe all of her friends should be aware that Skanky is having an affair with my husband, Joe. We have been married for 5 years and have 3 heartbroken children. They have been having this affair since October according to the evidence.

I would be happy to provide the evidence to anyone who asks.

I would ask that you use your influence with Skanky to persuade her to leave my husband alone. You should also watch your own husbands around her because she is no friend to marriage.

I would appreciate it if someone would notify her parents and ask them to call me at xxx-www-xxxx.

Thank you, BW

I guess I was scared of the possible outcome from putting my foot down on this. It is clear to me now that this is what must be done to get to that tipping point.

She likely has information you need to know as well. Find that out.

How do you know this? I would call the OM's house using *67 to disguise your # and see if she answers. If she does you can discuss the affair with her.


I would exchange all information and offer to be of help in her "divorce" case. She may not be getting divorced at all.

From the carrot/stick thread (link in my sig line)



In YOUR case.
I am calling with bad news.
My WW is having an affair with your WH.
To the best of my knowledge, the affair began around (date).
I have proof of the affair.
I am calling to let you know so you can take precautions to protect yourself.
If you want to speak with me in the future, here is my (phone & email) contact information. If you want to speak directly to my WW, here is her cell number. I want this ugly affair to stop so my marriage has a chance. Sorry to be the bearer of such bad news.

I am a HUGE FAN of the OMW calling the WW to give her hell.

Nothing throws icy cold water on the romance more than an angry WW calling the OW.

Your WW might learn in what ways OM has been lying to her.

AGREE!! SS, I know the OMW called your wife in the past and your WW lied to her about the affair. I would fill the OMW in on all the details and give her your WW's phone # again. Encourage her to give your wife a call.

Total agreement here.

My WW got a call from OMW last year....it stopped the AF for sometime.....but I didn't know. When only one WS knows, the lies are easier. A couple of months past and then a text from my WW to see how he was doing..... AF back on. A few months after that, the EA became a PA. Each knowing time was running out.......neither was planning on leaving for each other, but the fantasy was just too good. After my D-Day, and after I found out that the OMW had made contact, I got in touch with her. She wishes now she had called me, not my WW. Both of us know are guards for each other and our marriages. We do not communicate, but have each others numbers just in case there is a need.

Full exposure.... Kill the fantasy by turning on all the lights.

Then let her get one. Don't pay for her to be able to call her boyfriend.

Do this quickly. Her whole plan hinges on your cooperation. Let her know that you will not be cooperating in destroying your marriage and your children's home.

It ain't gonna happen on your watch. Let her know that in clearly understood terms, SS.

You can certainly respect your WW's desire to 'go potty' in private. You should not respect her desire to 'go potty' with her cell phone in her hand. See the difference between privacy and secrecy?

Meanwhile, she's breathing a sigh of relief that you are so willing to go along with her! Nip that in the bud, SS. I think you'll be very surprised.

She will not respect your actions if you are a doormat, SS.

SS,

Stand tall. Be the man!! Do not let her continue with the secrete life. My WW knows I look....she knows I check her every story and that others are helping me when we are apart. It's her price to pay for the deception she cooked up for the OM.

If you don't, MBliss is right.....you become a door mat.

So, I know I am going to get pummeled by you all for this but here is what I have done so far. I believe I have located the OMW on FB, I just need to confirm it is the right person before I talk with her about her husband's A (that would not be a good conversation to have with the wrong person).

I sat down calmly with WW last night and explained that I still want to make our M work. I know that we can be better and more in love than we ever have been in our relationship. This could not however happen while she continues to be in contact with OM. I told WW that I was feeling like I was enabling the A to continue and survive. We need for it to stop. I told WW that it was important for her to know that I was not going to sit there and let this continue, that I was not ok with the A and that she see that I didn't want it to appear to her that I didn't care about us and was just going to let the cards fall as they may. I told her that this was very difficult for me to talk with her about because I knew the potential risks involved.

Here is where you all gang up on me... WW asked me what I needed for boundaries and I told her that I was still figuring that out. I told her that I didn't want a situation where I told her that she has 10 minutes to pack her stuff up. This was a heads up to let her know how I was feeling about things and that we needed to make some changes. I told her that she was going to have to make some decisions of her own. I could not support her while her A continued. She could no longer have things both ways.

I know I should have had things laid out better before we talked so that I had my boundaries better defined. What I am thinking about gelling her today is that she can either cease all contact with him or move out. How to enforce this will be tricky. I know she is going to feel like a caged animal or is under house arrest when I take the Internet away. I was figuring that I could also cancel the land line leaving her just the pay as you go phone for emergencies. I know she needs access to her email to keep in contact with HR for her new job that will be starting some time in the next few weeks or months (she has an informal offer, just waiting on paperwork). Do I offer her supervised Internet privileges? The other thing I was thinking about was leaving the land line phone up and putting a number block for OM phone. Does that workorare there too many work arounds?

We were both good. Nobody raised their voices and we left the conversation smiling. When I talked with WW about our potential and what I could offer her and us in the future, she said she was seeing the changes that I have been making but I had not yet proven to her or myself for that I had conqured my seasonal depression/rage thing that appears to be the source of why we are where we are (at least in her mind). I have asked WW for forgiveness for how I had treated her during my down times and she says that she is not yet in a place to offer that forgiveness. That frustrates and disappoints me.

So, tonight I try to make contact with OMW and let WW know that I will not support any contact with OM. I won't suggest WW just get her own cell phone but what if she does? Do I allow her to contInue contact while she is here in the house but just on her dime?

Thanks for the support. That wasn't the easiest thing for me. I was raised to minimize problems( my sister is the same way). My instinct is to tell myself that things will be fine and will work themselves out. Definitely not always the case.

SS, that is a great first step! I would be somewhat vague and just say "all contact ends today or this will lead to divorce. I will not tolerate this anymore." Under no circumstances does she continue contact unless it is over your dead, bloated body. Tell her that you are willing to give her an opportunity to EARN your forgivness if she does certain things. But it will take ALOT to keep you interested in staying married to her. Explain to her that you want to have a romantic, loving, SAFE marriage and that you are not willing to settle for less and won�t stay in a loveless marriage. Tell her you are willing to give her an opportunity to earn your forgiveness. In order for the marriage to recover, certain things have to happen. This is what it will take to keep you interested:

1. complete no contact with the OM for life

2. complete transparency - cell phone passwords, etc, no more time alone on the internet - exchange cell phones

3. no more opposite sex friendships

4. complete honesty about her affair<s> � passing a polygraph if necessary

5. commit to a program of recovery that restores the romantic love in your marriage

Tell her "this is what it will take to keep me in this marriage." Whether your marriage ends up with success or failure will depend almost entirely on her willingness and ability to make radical changes. Her lifestyle must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back. She is in no position to negotiate when it comes to extraordinary precautions, because those precautions are designed to prevent another affair and help you feel safe. She must also meet your emotional needs in a way that until now she has failed. Unless she makes a 180 degree turn in her approach to what it means to be a wife, your marriage won't recover, it will be a crippled version of your pre-affair marriage.

You have nothing to lose and everything to gain by taking this approach, because if she won't do these things, you will have lost nothing except a loveless, abusive marriage.

What a load of crap. You are at this place because of her poor, inappropriate boundaries around men. MARRIED MEN. I am not concerned about her "forgivness" but yours. She has abused you in a horrendous, despicable way. What she has done is worse than rape or physical assault. So my main concern is your forgiveness. I would say over and over that you are willing to give her an opportunity to EARN your forgiveness but it will not be easy.

And when you contact the OMW, I would ask that she call you to discuss the affair. Give her your number and your wife's number. But don't forewarn your wife that you are contacting her.

SS, in most areas, even if you don't have a landline, you can still call 911 from a phone plugged into a phone jack(check in your area). However she contacts OM needs to GO. No one NEEDS a cellphone, so get rid of it. She will most likely get a new one on her own, but you will at least show her, in actions, that YOU are not going to accept her communicating with OM.

As ML pointed out, you want to be vague and say that her continued actions, in regards to the affair is going to lead to divorce. You aren't going to tell her that she has 10 minutes to figure out what she is going to do, or get out. She'll get out when you enter Plan B, or on her own, but make it clear that if she goes on her own, the children stay with YOU in your home.

ALL WSs want the fantasy divorce, let your WW be well aware that if she decides to continue with this affair that you will NOT be her "friend."

You do this all, while in Plan A. THis is all the stick part. Do you need any help with the carrot part of Plan A? What are your WWs top 5 ENs? How would you be able to show your willingness to meet those, in the future, should your marriage survive? What LBs have you been guilty of committing in the past that need to be fixed by you?

Remember, CARROT AND STICK.

Give OMW your WW's phone # and email.
On D-day, I called my H first. He said "Just friends" Yada Yada Yada. I knew he was lying.
Next, I called OW. She got irate and said "We are just friends. How dare you insult me by these accusations." She was in the middle of hosting a get together for her friends.

Then, a few days later when I finally got (most of) the truth, I told WH that my condition for staying married was he confess to OWH in person, in a public place with me there. (He did)

That's how you make one affair partner mad as hell with the other affair partner. OW was sooooooooo pissed off at my H for confessing the affair to her H that she never attempted contact again.



If WW gets her own phone, you sit right next to her when she is on it and talking to OM. You start talking out loud. (not yelling) It doesn't really matter what you say. Sing songs if you like. Whistle. Hum. Recite prayers. Whatever. WW and OM conversation should be interrupted. If WW leaves the phone unattended, lose it.

I hear you. WW living through my "down time" was not certainly no fun but I really don't place it on the same level as infidelity.

Did you go have an affair when your wife was grumpy, bloated and hormonal?
That happens once a month to most women.
Certainly no fun for husbands.

I really don't think that WW considered that there might be friction or hard feelings after a separation. I have been asking her how there can not? What kind of "friend" cheats on and lies to someone?

I feel like I have a good handle on the WW top 5 ENs but that is really my guess at what I think matches up with WW the best. She hasn't gone through the Q/A form herself and I haven't asked her to.

Very true. Don't get me started on when it goes past lunchtime and she hasn't eaten. I have learned to pack emergency granola bars in the car.

There you go!
Your perspective is more balanced now.

Ask for her understanding and her help, next time she brings out her 'score card'. Do not ask for her forgiveness. She will not offer forgiveness while she is wayward minded.

All waywards have a long list of grievances against their BS. They cling to the score card because it justifies their adultery.

My H's adultery occurred in the 14th year of our marriage.
One of his major grievances was from the first year !
Edit to add: It was something I'd SAID to him. One time.

It's not JUST that...it's also modeling appropriate behavior and boundaries long-term to your children. It teaches them that they don't have to stay in relationships with people that abuse them. You don't have to get along to get along with everyone...even if society and family are pressuring you to because they don't like the seeming conflict of it all.

The lesson to your children is....YOU MATTER, thus...so do they. They are and/or will be watching you and eventually taking those lessons into their future relationships.

Mr. Wondering

You, my friend, are a man paralyzed by fear. Fear is your greatest enemy.

You�re taking some small baby steps, but the fact of the matter is that the path you�re on right now pretty much guarantees divorce and establishes a precedent where she can crap on you and you take it with a smile.

It is time to act with conviction, decision, and bravery. Soldiers are all scared in combat, but some men can overcome that fear and act despite the fact that they know that a bullet can hit them at any moment.

So you must become James Bond. Be cool, but take action.

This means you take drastic steps to let your WW know that you�re doing being disrespected in your home, walked on by her, and will absolutely no longer enable her affair.

This means, very simply, that you demand that she end all contact with OM immediately. If she refuses, then you take the following steps.

1. Create a new bank account that only you have access to. Put all family funds in there and leave her with no access to funds. She is not acting like your wife so you don�t have to treat her like your wife.
2. You let her know that you will consult a divorce lawyer soon. You let her know that you will seek full custody of the kids and will use her adultery against her if she doesn�t end it. Say this without anger, but simply as a matter of fact, like you�re telling an enemy that unless they withdraw you will bring down the worst bombing they�ve ever experienced and you�d rather not go down that path.
3. Immediately block FB or put a lock on your computers where you can only log in to it with the password you setup.

She�ll blow a gasket. She�ll get mad as he77 and threaten you. All you have to say is that you will treat her like your wife when she wishes to act like it but that you�re done being her doormat.

You will be scared to death while doing all of this. You�ll fear that she�ll walk out.

Well, unless she gets someone to finance her leaving, then she�s SOL. You stick to your guns. You don�t have to get mad. All you have to do is say, �I�m not going to tolerate this affair anymore. End this affair and I�ll consider forgiving you and saving our marriage. If you insist on continuing, then by all means. He can take care of you and support you but I�m not going to do that anymore. Go to him if you want money and a place to live.�

It�s time. Stop dilly dallying in fear. I say this to you as a man who did so. I had a deluded WW who thought we would have this friendly divorce and we�d all get along splendidly. I look back and wish I�d taken the steps I just described simply so I could look back in pride and see that I didn�t act in fear but acted like a man.

You�re not acting like a man and she will never respect you as such until you do. Asking nicely to stop screwing another man isn�t going to work. You may as well go to their next tryst and sit by while they do it in front of you and then give them water and towels when they�re done. That�s essentially what you�re doing right now.

Fear is a pretty accurate way to describe how I feel right now. Between some of the responses I got from my posts and how WW reacted to what I had said Sunday night. I really didn't know if I was doing the right things anymore. WW has retracted again and closed me off more since my chat with her on Sunday. I felt like all of the "progress" I had made in the past month by becoming more friendly with her and getting into some good discussions and getting her to open up some about our future was really compromised. I went and made an appointment with Jennifer here at MB and spoke with her on Tuesday night. She talked to me about the ideas of cognitive dissonance and how WW can create of an addendum to belief. Basically she explained that WW reaction was due to the things she was hearing not fitting into her frame of reference that included me in her life as a friend.

I have put together a letter that I am going to give to WW tonight. I would like to post it here for critique but am unsure if the mods would go for that. Thank you.

Ending an affair requires that you stop being nice and take action. Fear and letters aren�t going to get you anywhere. Take it from someone who wrote several heartfelt letters. They do nothing. They don�t create a spark of, �Gosh, I never saw it that way before. I�m going to end my affair and save my marriage. I�m such a foolish woman!�

Stop it.

Actions will be the only thing that save your marriage. That means ticking her off. That means overcoming your fear.

Again, I say this to you as a man who was paralyzed by fear and was in your shoes. My approach got me divorced and without anything, including regular time with my kids. Why? I didn�t fight her on anything. I felt that if I made things easier and did as she wished that we�d be back together. She even said so to me. She had me believing that doing things as she wanted would lead to reconciliation eventually.

You know what happened once it was official? There were no more restrictions on her. She did as she wished and there was never any chance of reconciliation.

Granted, I�m glad there wasn�t since I�m happily remarried with a woman I�m actually happy with versus the he77 that was my marriage. Nevertheless, I say this to you: If you want to save your marriage you have to take action. That doesn�t mean you write another letter that will accomplish nothing.

It means ending the affair, which requires that you tick her off. Get it yet?

Lostdads is exactly right about this. I've seen it played out on this board many times in the 4 years I've been here and it is the same thing that happened to my dh who knew nothing of MB or exposure.

My dh just kept 'being nice' all the way up to the point that she took his boys and moved far enough away that it is difficult to see them regularly.

Nice BHs need a swift kick in the rear by people who have BTDT.

WAit a minute. Did Jennifer tell you to send her a letter? And what is it supposed to say? What is the purpose?

Did you tell Jennifer she is an alcoholic?

Alcoholic? I must have missed that....?

oh duh! I got him confused with someone else.

shortsleeves, what about exposure? How is that coming along? Have you reached the OMW?

Well, I spoke to Jennifer about that too and she said that I shouldn't be contacting other women just like WW shouldn't be contacting other men.

Jennifer wanted me to write a letter that stated a positive message about the potential future for me and WW. This would be followed up in a week with a short note (one or two lines) re-emphasizing the message and the a week after that there would be a third message that would be to the point (time to make a decision and get off the fence. I think the idea was to plant the seed of a positive future knowing that WW would not likely respond to that message initially. This would be followed up with other messages that would get her to make a decision.

At this point I don't see a scenario where WW will not be moving out. The only thing stopping her is employment. Once WW gets her start date, she is moving out. I am thinking that would be my plan B start time. This seems to be happening very quickly and I honestly have only been working and thinking about plan A. I haven't spent much energy planning my plan B. I felt like it was still too early.

WW has told me that she shouldn't be married (to me or any othe man). My hesitation with being heavy handed with WW as you are suggesting is due in part to that and she doesn't react well when cornered. My "fear" is if I push too hard too fast she will react by leaving me (not for OM, just to get away from me). I did tell WW the other night that I would not be letting her get between me and my kids. That the idea of us being friends after the separation was not going to happen and that I would not be waiting for her to take the next decade to find herself. My plan was to not drop everything on her at once in one load to avoid her from fleeing immediately.

Jennifer advised against contacting the OMW but that seems to be passing on a good opportunity to make some strides toward breaking up the affair. I know how you all feel.

But you have to expose the affair to the OMW. Did you call the OMW? Not contacting other women does not apply to exposing the affair to the OMW.

I am certain this is a misunderstanding on your part. Exposure to the other BS is essential and has to be done. Please read this article by Dr Harley. http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2266646#Post2266646

If you are unclear about that part, you can email Dr Harley, the founder of Marriage Builders, at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com

SS, exposure is the most potent weapon you have against the affair. This is what Dr Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders, says about it. In fact, Dr Harley has said repeatedly that "it is hard to save a marriage when you become an enabler" [by not exposing]:


Radio clip of Dr Harley telling a man who hid his wife's affair that it is hard to save a marriage when you are an enabler [THIS MAN HAD NEVER EXPOSED THE AFFAIR AND HIS WIFE WAS LEAVING HIM]: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2815

Another radio clip to BTInTrouble where Dr Harley told him to "expose the heck of this affair!" BT listened to him and he killed his wife's affair THAT DAY! http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2850

Are you sure you heard this right?

What Jennifer said at the time about not contacting OMW didn't make sense to me after I thought about it more. It was contrary to what I had read and what has been repeated here on the forum. I can only assume that there was a misunderstanding. I will be making contact with OMW to either expose or at the very least compare notes.

SS, just read your thread through, and after nine pages worth it just begs the question "What exactly have you done so far to terminate your wife's affair?"

I see lots of postulating and almost no action at all. Your going to have to shed the fear and take the actions that Mel has recommended instead of talking about how you agree with what's being said and how wonderful everyone is. Someone already said that your inaction could be perceived as disinterest in saving your marriage by your WW - that observation is spot on.

Stop talking about exposing to OMW and do it. Stop talking about demanding your wife not disrespect you by continuing contact with the OM while in your home. She threatens to leave? Tell her that you want to work on making a better marriage but can't do that while she is in contact with OM, she wants to contiunue the affair, she can move out. You need to make sure that she cannot financially compromise your family. You should have done this already, but if you haven't do it NOW. It can get pretty expensive for you with a WW who wants to finance her fantasy and start making trips to see POSOM.

Most importantly, you need to stop believing anything your WW tells you about what she is doing or what she wants, it's all fog babble. Cheating women often try to justify what they're doing by concocting this fantasy divorce where no one is hurt and everyone is such great friends when all is said and done. It's only when you blow that fantasy up that they start to realize the gravity of what they're doing and start seeing things for what they really are.

Out of curiosity, and since no one else asked, how and why did your wife's first marriage end?

I have moved all of our "joint" money to a different account that WW does not have access to. I have messaged OMW on FB to discuss what is really going on. I am guilty of not acting on the other parts as forcefully as I should.

I have a question on exposure. WW has an unofficial job offer. Should I expose at work? I work at the same place. I was thinking that it would be seen as career sabotage or a threat. Thoughts?

You should only expose at work if they work together or if her employer is in a position to influence her to leave OM. Neither seems to apply here. Your actions would appear to be revenge-driven.

I would only expose at work if the OM works there too. A good exposure target would be the OM's parents and family members. Can you find his facebook page?

Also, how has this affair been exposed to your wife's family? What were they told and who told them? Will they apply pressure on your wife?

And you should DEMAND that she end her affair. I see that I already told you all this and wonder if you have done any of it?

om the new book by Dr. Harley Effective Marriage Counseling pg 94:

"Granted, there are situations when demands may be necessary in marriage. During a spouse's affair, for example, I recommend that the betrayed spouse demand there be no contact with the lover. If there is continued contact, separation or even divorce would be the logical consequence. While normally demands don't work, in this case there are no reasonable alternatives because thoughtful requests are even less likely to separate lovers."

SS,

Seriously, you are completely clueless on the power of growing a pair and drawing a boundary. YOU are responsible for how you let others treat you.

Do you not understand that you have all the power right now? You�re the bread winner. You pay the bills. She has no way of negotiating anything if you grow a pair and stand up for yourself.

We already told you that she would go ballistic when you finally man up and expose and draw your boundaries on her affair. We�ve told you this. It�s coming. Expect it. But you still stay paralyzed in fear.

You are on the path to divorce and it is happening because you are letting it happen.

Read other men�s threads on here. Look at how much the dilly dallied like you and feared exposure and action.

My WXW was exactly like yours. I had the same exact fears you do. Looking back I regret not drawing boundaries the most. I regret acting like you�re acting because I feel ashamed as a man that I didn�t draw my boundaries. Might I have ended up divorced? Who knows. Probably. But looking back and seeing how much of a doormat I was that I most regret.

Have you no self respect?

Man up and quit being afraid. I told you what you need to do. YOUR WIFE IS F***ING ANOTHER MAN AND YOU�RE AFRAID OF HER!

Think about it. Who should be afraid of who?

Wake up and take action. All you�re doing right now is enabling and allowing this to continue.

YOUR WIFE IS HAVING AN AFFAIR! Ok. Can you get that through your head and understand that she�s disrespecting you in the worst form imaginable? She�s spitting in your face and you�re taking it with a smile because you�re afraid that reacting will lead to her leaving.

Her screwing another man will lead to her leaving. You stating that you won�t tolerate an affair is not going to lead to the failure of your marriage. What it will do is give her a reason to respect you. Right now she has no respect for you and she never will if you continue to cower in fear. Seriously, you may as well set up her dates and bring the lovers water when they�re doing screwing, because that is basically what you�re doing right now.

This post isn�t given to you in anger. I�m saying this as a man who wants to wake you up and who understands exactly how you feel!

SS....

I agree with HTLD. My reluctancy to expose has been my biggest regret. If you want to save your marriage...kill the one thing that is stopping that. Exposure is the Chemotherapy for the cancer known as affairs.

So what if she gets mad....YOU SHOULD BE MAD....I know I was more than mad, I had Rage.

Be the man you want to be, not the man your wife has turned you into...

Expose NOW. Every minute you wait, gives her and the affair more power over you.

I let the hammer fall and was able to get the WW to agree to NC with OM. Very surprised that WW agreed to that. I of course will need to verify monitor that this actually happens but I thought that was a pretty big step. I made a few demands and NC with OM was not one of the ones WW took issue with. This makes me think that this NC is probably temporary and I should not put too much weight in this gesture. In the mean time, WW is still at the house and let's assume for argument that she is NC the OM. Aside from continuing plan A, is there anything I should be focusing on with WW? I know to expect a withdrawal period where she is going to be pretty nasty around. Do I just keep plan A going, do I give her some space?

As far as exposure goes, I am not sure who else I can speak to that would have influence on her. I have exposed to my parents, my sister, both of her parents, and I have talked with three of her close friends (WW exposed to them herself). This was all done back in August right after D-Day. Exposure didn't really seem to affect the A at all. I know that many As die out after a while, I would rather not wait for that to maybe happen. I am going to continue to paint an ugly future for the two of us should the A ever re-ignite. I guess what I am asking is what next?

Did you expose to the OM's wife? That is the most important exposure, of course.

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Have all of these people spoken to your wife and tried to persuade her to end her affair?

I have messaged the OMW on FB but have not heard back directly. There is no land line at OMW house so the white pages search came up empty. To answer your question, no I have not succeeded yet in exposing to OMW. I have a name and the state that I think OMW lives in, not much else. Any suggestions?

I have asked all of the people I have exposed the A to try and influence WW to end the A. The people who have talked with WW have all come up empty. WW has never reacted well to people telling her how to think or feel.

I would keep trying until you get her, even if you have to hire a PI. This will likely be the final death of the affair. You need the OMW watching out from her end. As long as she doesn't know, your wife is free to contact the OM. Does the OMW have a business name on her facebook page?

What about her friends and family? Can you message them and ask them to have her call you? That is how sunnyDinTx killed her husbands affair. She contacted the OWH's brother and SIL and they called her personally. The affair ended that day.

\
But I bet she does not react well to people telling her how disappointed they are, does she? And that is what she desperately needs to hear. The point is NOT to tell her what she WANTS TO HEAR, but what she needs to hear. Does she know that all these folks KNOW about her affair?

I will see if I can find some relatives of OMW and go that route, thanks for the suggestion.

I am going to talk with my FIL again to get him to let WW know how disapointed he is. I feel that he has the most influence on WW of any of us. I think you are right about WW not reacting well to things she needs to hear.

Good job, SS! You are a real trooper. I think if you can just get in touch with the OM's wife, this will end and you can truly ensure no contact. He is not going to ruin his marriage over something like this.

p.s. I can't tell you the times we have heard from former wayward wives on this board that they were afraid to contact the OM because they knew his wife was watching. The OM will also be much less likely to contact your wife again if he knows that you are watching and that you will contact HIS WIFE.

I would pledge to stay in contact with the OMW until you know contact is really ended. You should each inform the other when you know there has been contact. And I would not do that via email because your wife can delete those emails. Do it through phone calls or work email.

Alright, you're doing better, you'll find that all of these actions combined with a good Plan A (not Plan Doormat)will give you the best chance.

No wayward likes to have their actions exposed to people that they feel accountable to - shame is a very powerful emotion - and it often kills the fantasy immediately when the wayward sees the first of potentially many real life consequences to their actions.

Still didn't answer my question about how your wife's first marriage ended, could have bearing on your current situation.

Take note of the progress you�ve made by taking action and setting aside your fear. Continue with the fa�ade of coolness and self confidence. Weepy and whiny will get you nowhere while emulating James Bond will help get your wife to the point where she at least respects you.

Expect for her to go through withdrawal but keep your eyes open that it didn�t simply go further underground, which is very likely what she�ll try.

Tell her that no contact is non-negotiable and do so with complete calm.

Your greatest weapon in this fight is complete calm and coldness when dealing with the affair. Outbursts of anger will only feed her reasons for wanting to leave you as she will twist these things into justifications for her affair and for leaving you. Don�t give her the ammo.

I am told that WW's first M ended because both of them wanted out of the M. WW first husband left her but he just barely beat her out the door. Yes, there was an A at the end of WW's first M. This was discovered after her first H had already left. So, WW does have a bit of a track record with doing this. I have gathered this information from talking with WW and my in-laws over the years.

I am already seeing signs of withdrawal which makes me think that I really Ned to be mindful of whether the NC actually happens. Right now, I am feeling like I have a relatively short window to work with. I am predicting that once WW starts work she will be finding an apartment and I would guess get back on touch with OM. I see it going one of a couple of ways. Either she stays in the house long enough with NC with OM that she can begin to actually want to work on recovery OR she moves out and realizes that she will not be seeing the kids regularly and that will affect her OR she moves out and realizes that this OM can not fulfill her ENs. She is very difficult to talk with right now (since her agreement to my demands). That doesn't make for an easy plan A but I am plugging away just the same.

This isn't clear to me, ss.

Who had the affair at the end of WW's first marriage - her or her XH?

If it was her XH, how does she "have a bit of a track record with doing this"?

Did she have an affair before this current one?

WW had an A toward the end of her first M. I think she justified it by telling herself that she had already left the M. That didn't ever make sense to me and we had talked about that a few times since our relationship had begun.

I guess what I was trying to say was my WW has a history of being W.

SS, if you kill the affair, she will have no reason to move out. Your best shot at killing the affair is contacting the OMW and killing the affair that way. Additionally, you should be doing a facebook exposure on the OM. If you expose to his parents and his family, the affair has no future.

Please get moving, my friend. Time is a wasting!

I wouldn't believe anything your wife said about her previous marriage, given what you know now it is probable that her first marriage ended because of her infidelity, and I suspected as much.

You have your work cut out for you, SS, and it's not going to be an easy road. Who was it that pushed for wanting to be a SAHM, you or your wife? What is really going to change between the two of you if she gets a job, other than having to put your kids in daycare?

We had discussed things regarding WW first M before WW and I were even engaged. I hear you about not trusting anything that comes out of her mouth right now but I don't know that she would have lied about the conditions of her first M ending way back then. I don't know, maybe she would have. I don't know anymore.

What would be different would be that she basically free to do whatever she wanted if she was out of the house. Right now I have at least some leverage with her which I am now using to stop the A for the time being. That pretty much goes away when she leaves. I found out tonight that OM has plans to move to the local area some time early next year. Not a good sign. I am having a tough tome right now staying positive when WW won't even discuss things. She is telling more and more people that our M is over. I am pretty much screwed the way I look at it right now.

You've got to exposed OM near and far such that he second guesses his plans to move there. I've not been following your thread closely but are you in a small community or say a minority community within a community? Don't know why I'm thinking you're Asian or Indian...maybe I stereotyped your profession somewhere along the line. Anyway...full exposure within that community may make OM second guess coming to town. He'll figure what's the point as he'll always be looked down upon there AND/OR he REALLY doesn't fully intend to move (doesn't he have kids 1000 miles away????) so your exposure just gives him the excuse he needs to be a really good sex chasing OM saying all the right things ("sure...I'll move there...next year" wink-wink-nudge-nudge) without ever actually having to move there.

Waywards make grand gestures and fantasy plans all the time. It's part of the soulmate fantasy...that all to often ends up never happening when push comes to shove. Exposure helps facilitate both "push" and "shove". Instead of NEXT YEAR...you're wife starts saying "right now" and OM starts backpedaling and they both realize it's NOT GONNA HAPPEN and never was.


Mr. Wondering

I hope you are right. I hope this all just talk on his part. I for one don't know how you can think of abandoning your own child the way OM would be doing if he relocates. I understand that OM will be relocating locally to continue his degree at a local University. Doesn't add up. He is going to be quitting his job, beginning child support/alimony payments, and attending school... Not sure how that will all be funded. If WW is picking up the tab then she can have him. She is not vetting any support from me at that point. To answer your questions, no we don't live in a real small community so I don't think exposure would work the way you describe. I don't fit the minority profile you describe either. You must have me confused with someone else.

I think my angle on this is to keep the discussion going with WW about how things will be in the future. Things like no contact between our kids and OM, we will not be "good friends" getting along and being happily separated, I am not sticking around waiting for her to snap out of this for ever, her family life will be completely different, her access to the kids will be limited...

Who told you this? Your WW? Because this sounds like one of those empty promises adulterers make to each other. My H was going to ride into the sunset on a horse with his OW.

The man's never been on a horse in his life.

If your WW said it, it's more than likely one of those over-blown promises he made to her in the heat of the moment.

If it IS true, you now have a solid timeline to beat. I would say to bang out as big an exposure as you can. Right now. Give him a nice 'welcome' to your world.

Quote

I don't know that she would have lied about the conditions of her first M ending way back then. I don't know, maybe she would have. I don't know anymore.

Perhaps this is what she'll be telling husband #3 about you, that your marriage was basically over when she decided to cheat.

I wouldn't focus so much on what the OM is, or will be, doing beyond what the others are stressing about exposing. If you don't get to the bottom of what is wrong inside with your wife, there'll be another OM in the future even if this one goes away when you up the risk level by exposing.

Do you get much UA time with your wife? Do you both try to make time for each other beyond taking care of the kids? Along with POJA, this is probably the most important part of MarriageBuilders.

You're not screwed, SS, just have to make some changes within yourself and then start leading by example. Your wife will se e these changes and how hard you're working to build a new marriage and will then decide if she is going to put some effort into it with you or pull the plug. Can't see her wanting to be a twice divorced woman with kids when she sees things for how they really are.

To do this, you have to stop worrying about what could happen. What's the worst that could happen - that you get divorced right? Well, it seems that you're already on that track unless you change your marriage. It's like worrying about when you're going to die when we all know that eventually we will. What's the best thing to do? Make it the best life you can, eat right and take care of yourself, and not worry about when it's going to end. So right now, you try to make it the best marriage that you can and not worry about something that may not happen. Put the effort into revitalizing your marriage through this program and you will extend the life of your marriage.

Coming from another BH who balked at the idea of exposure, you MUST expose. I did finally expose but I believe it would have been extremely more effective if I had done it at the beginning instead of six months later.

My WW is still mad about it and says "I would have tried to work things out if you hadn't told everyone MY business." Do I believe that? NO! I believe she's just too embarrassed and shameful over the fact that people actually know her reason for leaving was more than just "he was a horrible husband" as she tells it.

Do I regret it? NO! I can sleep easy knowing 1) I did everything to fight for my family and 2) people know the truth.

I urge you. EXPOSE,EXPOSE, EXPOSE. Do it for your marriage and family. Do it for you.

WW did not tell me. I was able to gain access to WW FB account last night finally and she had a message to a friend of hers talking about how her friend (OM) was moving to the area in the next 6 months and would be attending the local University to continue his degree. WW was asking her friend about how OM might go about finding work in the field he is working toward.

I thought that I had a good chance for surviving this A since OM was 1000 miles away with family commitments. Now, I am not so hopeful.

I am now ramping up the exposure. I had 2 dead ends yesterday with trying to track down OMW. I have a few more things places to try before I will just contact a PI.

6 months is not a lot of time. Failure to expose now means a possible permanently doomed marriage.

Read the first post on this thread.

A PI can get you everything you need to know for about $100.

I have been getting more and more UA time with WW. That has helped. We have the 2 small kids which eat up a ton of the day to day time but I have been setting up dates with the WW and also other times where we are able to just get out and go for a jog or work on a project together. We still work really well together. I am pushing every day to make changes in my life. To better myself. I have come to terms with some major issues that I have been avoiding for a long long time (1/2 my life). I am coming to terms with the reality that a D is a real possibility.

SS, I would work very hard to find the OMW ASAP. That will be your best tool against this affair.

I have exposed to 3 close co-workers this morning that know both me and WW very well. They all ask the same thing. What should they say to WW when they talk to her. I have been telling people to not avoid WW, they should be supportive of my point of view if they agree and to impress on WW that they are disapointed with her and that she can still change the course she is on. I am contacting WW's cousin after work today and will give it one more stab at tracking down OMW before I go after a PI. What else should I be telling people that I have exposed to?

Great post! Thank you. Yes, 6 months is not long at all.

Thank you. I was wondering that last night when I was searching on-line.

By the way, I hope you realize your posts scared me more than the thought of telling my wife to NC with OM. Thanks! I have heard from a couple of people that WW was impressed that I "finally grew a pair" when I demanded she NC OM. It doesn't make her want to change her course but...

I'm not so sure it's your job to coach them on what to say or do. If someone has any type of good in them, you shouldn't have to tell them to do something. Your goal, i guess, is to make others know that you're fighting for your family and that your wife is being unfaithful.

They may do nothing. OR they may go and ask your wife what's her problem. Just like you can't control your wife, you can't control how those to whom you expose will react and respond.

I have tried to be vague with any guidance when I have been asked. I feel like that the conversation if there is one should be between the WW and the friend/family member. I have told people that it was important to me that they hear of things from me first and not WW.

SS, I'm glad you're taking action. Don't slow down. Keep it going before she starts the spin machine. The spin machine is usually like this:

"My husband is crazy. He thinks I'm having an affair. Don't believe him if he talks to you."

The thing I have going for me in that regard is that people know me, they know the person I am.

Stupid question: Do I tell WW about the extent of exposure? Some of the people I have told have fairly infrequent dialogue with WW so I am thinking that some of this exposure will really have no affect on WW and the A.

Don't tell her anything about the exposure. You'll hear about it from the ww if someone confronts her about it.

So, I just got off the phone with the OMW. We compared notes for about an hour. What we could figure out was that we are both being consistently lied to. Surprise. It appears that the NC is working and is being honored. OMW thanked me for stepping up and making that happen. Bad news is that OM was out this way in September which was news to me. We believe they were possibly looking at places to live. It sounds like OM has been telling lies all around. He has told WW that he is ending his M and they are just waiting on a court date. OMW has no intention of D. They have had papers for a long time but they aren't signed or anything. He has been with his wife all summer being wishy washy - one minute wanting out of the M, the next minute wanting to make things work. I encouraged OMW to continue to expose and not to give up. I told her to basically plan A as best she could. OMW's assessment of the A was very similar to mine. WW and OM have absolutely nothing in common. Neither of us can envision a scenario where this could possibly work.

It sounds like WW and OM have dreamed up some fantasy where nobody divorces and we all just get along. They would move to our area and everything would be happy. We would all go out on Friday nights for beer and pizza. OMW and I are on the same page on that one. No flipping way is that an option. The idea to me of an open, married relationship just does not work in any form.

We agreed to keep each other in the loop as far as what any changes we saw.

I also exposed to a cousin and two other friends of WW today. I feel like short of taking an ad out in the paper, I am starting to run out of people to expose this to.

Thanks for the encouragement and direction everyone.

It is a very good idea to ask them all to use their influence to persuade her to end her affair. That is the whole point of the exposure so it is hoped that they will call. He needs to have as many as possible calling her up and expressing their disappointment. That is the GOAL here.

This is why it is important to ask them all to contact her. The point of exposure is to get as many people as possible calling her. Someone may get through to her.

In all of the written exposures I have had to make when I did not have phone numbers or could not get hold of the person I was trying to contact, that was pretty much the wording I used. I went and copied parts from the sample letter from the forum here. I talked about how the person I was writing to was very significant to WW and they asked them to use their influence on WW to get her to end the A. To me, if you expose to someone and the WS never hears from them, that doesn't really do anything for killing the A. It pretty much just gives you support (which is still important).

Great job!! Now wait a day or two and see if your wife finds out. If not, TELL HER about your call!!

In the meantime, ASK THESE exposure targets to call your wife. You should be asking each one to "please use your influence to persuade WW to end her affair. The more people who call her up the more likely someone will get through to her!"

This weekend, be sure and tell her to WHOM you have exposed and tell her all about your discussion with the OMW! Make sure she knows that you and the OMW will be staying in touch to kill the affair.

That's correct. Which is why you want to tell her yourself if she doesn't find out from them. You want her to know that EVERYONE KNOWS what she is doing! Everyone!

As soon as she finds out about ONE exposure she will come to you steaming mad and want to know all the others you've exposed. As I mentioned before (I think)...it's quite handy to be able to tell her "everyone", lest she tries to use her ADDED anger in an effort to manipulate further silence. You'll have enough anger to deal with in the first place.

Be prepared for "That's it..NOW I'm really gonna divorce you" as if THIS was the straw that broke the camel's back. Please don't laugh at her but it's all so predictable.

Mr. W

I expect that WW hears some feedback from some of my exposure targets before the weekend. FB makes communication too easy.

WW and I had a long talk last night. The NC seems to be helping her to clear her mind. Not as many emotional influences I think. Well, she told ms last night that A or no A it is becoming very clear to her that she does not want to be married to me. She first gave me the "there is no chemistry" which I responded to her by telling her that I have a plan to regain that lost chemistry. Thenshe went into how she was done caring for 3 kids (me being the third). I asked her if she still really believed that and that I was unable to care for myself and the kids considering the changes I have made in the last few months. She admitted that I was doing much better but still wasn't there. Then she said that I was too smothering. She feels constantly oppressed while in the house. Next she went on to say that I do not challenge her. She is tired of being the one that has to knock me out of my comfort zone to do something new. Or something like that.

WW feels very strongly that she needs to be on her own. I explained that an open relationship would not work for me and the fantasy that she has of us all being friendly and cooperating with the kids and other life issues was not realistic. I asked WW what she envisioned for how things would look say 2 years down the road. She didn't really have an answer. I pointed out that the feelings she had right now were real. That she was being honest with how she feels today but tomorrow, next week, next month, 6 months from now she couldn't predict how she was going to feel about things. I pointed out that the loss of constant exposure to the kids was going to affect her and that living on her own was going to affect her. She told me that she was not going to stay in a M just for the kids.

We talked about whether we needed to move forward with legal papers (separation or D) and I told her that I thought that was premature for that.

I told WW that I did not want to live alone, this separation thing wasn't going to work for me long term. WW then suggested that I start dating! I told her that I do not in any way think that would be acceptable behavior considering we are still married. I don't operate that way. That statement is wrong on so many levels.

How much of what WW is spewing is fog, withdrawal, truth? I have no idea anymore. I repeated many times that I still have hope for us that we can recover and make a better M than we had before because I have a plan. I just needed her to want to try. Right now I have no clue where things are headed. WW still has no want to try yet. Granted she has not "left" OM.

Sheesh. Sorry for all of that.

The trouble you have caused in the affair has caused her to have second thoughts. You handled this very well. You were polite yet you painted a picture of her bleak future. I can't wait until she finds out you have spoken to the OMW and you tell her all the lies she has been told. When you do that, I would act very sympathetic. Tell her "I am so sorry he has lied to you."

You are doing a good job standing up for your marriage!

Well, she told ms last night it is becoming very clear to her that she does not want to be married to me....She first gave me the "there is no chemistry"...Then she went into how she was done caring for 3 kids...Then she said that I was too smothering....She feels constantly oppressed while in the house...Next she went on to say that I do not challenge her... She is tired of being the one that has to knock me out of my comfort zone to do something new. Or something like that.

Do-do-do-do, do-do-do-do

(Rod Serling voice) You have entered "Wayward Zone", where sight and sound are unlike any other place. Do not attempt to adjust your picture!

SS, the vast majority of exposed and flattened contemporary WWs do EXACTLY what yours is doing, and have been conditioned to do since childhood.

Forever, they've been raised to understand that NOTHING is their fault, their "opinions" and "feelings" are important, and there are no absolutes.

And now the dawn is breaking upon the wreckage they have created in their families' lives and (very slowly) in their own intrinsic worth. Whereas culturally cheating males have gotten the break of "boys will be boys", females know that "good girls don't do that", and since she did that, she cannot be a good girl! Unless, of course, she can fabricate a compelling reason that she was "driven" to her infidelity by external forces ("No absolutes" thereby granting permission.), and then save her own self image, ie, "Yes, I did it, but I HAD to!"

Bob Fosse expressed it in the song from "Chicago":

He had it coming, he had it coming,
He only had himself to blame!
If youd-a been there, if youd-a seen it,
I tell ya you woulda done the same!

Keep refudiating (Thank you, Ms Palin!) her every excuse, quietly and calmly. Eventually they'll drizzle down to the trivial ("You didn't change my car's oil every 3,000 miles"), and then cease.

I love it.

When push comes to shove in the upcoming explosion over the exposure you've done...you can give her some fog responses:

"Well...I thought I was 'challenging you'. I also thought you'd be proud of me for trying something new ...a different tactic"

All that stuff she's saying is run of the mill fogtalk and it sounds like you did a good job of what I call "charging neutral". You were calmly making your points while listening to her fogtalk (engaging in conversation) without really internalizing anything she said.

Be ready...it's about to get worse. She very likely will break no contact after she finds out you exposed which sucks but is common. It's not all bad though as the conversations aren't romantic in nature rather acts of desperation and mistrust.

Mr. Wondering

That will be an interesting conversation when it happens. I love your line "I feel sorry he has lied to you.".
I am writing that down!

Another detail that you may embellish a bit is saying something like "OMW told me he'd been trying for months to get her to agree and/or consider moving here....now that I've talked to her she knows why and she's NOW not going to agree to it. I asked her if he'd move here on his own and she said "not in a million years. He's threatened but always comes back with the next trick trying to convince me to move...his kids are way too important to him to leave on his own".

Make it seem that exposure just this week quashed the fantasy of him moving there.

Sidenote...there's a fine line between out and out lying which I don't recommend and merely embellishing a story a bit for maximum purposes. This is a war for your family. I think most things are pretty fair in love and war. I'd lie to save my wife and kids...but that's me....I'm a shield and sword kind of guy. You just don't want to get caught lying or embellishing so staying close to the actual storyline is wiser. Remember..anything you say about OMW and OM are going right back to OM sooner or later.


Even if she contacts him....in the back of her mind she knows he's a lying cheating bastage so asking him questions about this purported move and him merely answering mean nothing. She can't trust him and unless he packs up and moves the next day....she'll be upset and lovebusting. She'll actually believe you over the OM (thought she'll never tell anyone that until much later on).


You see...in my mind...although she's "no contact" she hasn't really ended the affair. She's just waiting on her job, moving out and him moving to town. So I wouldn't fret over whether she calls him again. You MAY actually need that to happen a bit before the affair ACTUALLY ends (so they can lovebust each other and break up for reals). Don't get me wrong...it would be great if she never spoke to him again the rest of her life starting last week....I just don't think that's what's going to happen.

Until the affair is dead...there is no recovery.

Mr. W

I have to tell you, after last night's discussion with WW I was not feeling real good about our working through this mess we are in. I was feeling like I was battling a couple of different things. The A was one thing but these other issues WW was bringing up. I was asking myself, how I could possibly come through all of that. I was really having a hard time coming up with my "best case scenario". WW is very convincing, she has been consistently saying from the beginning that she was feeling stifled and uninspired and all the rest. So, I did have doubt walking away from that chat about a continued future together.

I hope you are right. I suspected that this might be fog babble and I guess time will truly tell whether that is in fact how WW feels. I felt real good about how I handled things. Real calm and I tried to offer up some alternative points of view without telling her she was just plain wrong.

I feel like I should also mention that among everything else that is going on, WW and her mom are working on sorting some of their issues out. Right now they are focusing on boundary issues. I know during the research and discussion between WW and her mom that this mess WW and I are in is coming up and she is thinking about how things relate to one another. I think this is a good thing, I just hope WW doesn't get overwhelmed by all of the talk.

I told the WW that I was happy that she was finally able to have some clear air space to do some thinking now that OM was given a time out. She agreed but also told me I was probably upset that she wasn't coming up with the answer I was looking for. I told her that time will tell what the right answer is.

Keep up the good fight, shortsleeves. We're rooting for you.

I love your line of thinking about this "challenging her" and me trying something new. I think it also shows that I am not just waiting for something to happen on its own. I am taking some control over what is happening.

This is too much to try to process in one sitting, SS. You've got a couple of different issues here, and they deserve to be addressed one at a time:

1. Kill the A and defog the WW.
2. Recover and rebuild the M.

Do No. 1 first. Learn about No. 2 here so you've got tools in place to repair your M when recovery begins.

Yes, the A is not over by any means. WW told me last night that as soon as she moves out she intends to start things back up with OM. I will be doing everything I can in the mean time to cast doubt in her mind about what OM really is going to do and whether he is actually going to follow through with what he is telling her.

Thanks.

I was trying to explain to the WW last night that our future would not be friendly and cooperative like she imagines. I think that train of thought and discussion got away from me a bit and I got ahead of myself. I am a planner and I like to try to anticipate possible outcomes way ahead of time so that I can think about what might be the best course of action and make a wise choice. I will try to focus just on killing the A and defogging WW right now. That is what is most important right now.

I can't add any new or better advice except you have gotten some good advice over the last two pages.

Keep up the fight. You are getting close to the point of things turning.

Not sure what I did wrong with that last post. My message got incorporated with Mr. W's post. I will figure this out someday...

Good job telling her!! Hopefully some of these people will contact her?

Is she with the OM this weekend?

Here's your inspiration:

DS 5
DD 3

I confirmed with OMW that he will not be with WW this weekend. He works Saturday and get this, OMW will be with OM on Sunday. OM and OMW are seperated but he will come over regularly and stay at the house with his wife. OMW just let me know that OM has an on-line dating website profile. Can't wait to pass that information on to WW.

What can I expect from WW at this point? She is real pissed right now. Does this generally last real long?

So true.

I have been consistently surprised at how much emotional support I have gotten from my 5 year old. He will come up to me and say something like "Papa, you seem sad. Why are you sad? You look like you need a hug". This was more before I started plan A. I haven't "looked" sad very much since then.

I would expect them to be together this weekend. The OM will, of course, make excuses to his wife. Why else would a person to go spend the weekend somewhere to "study?"

SS, have you exposed the affair to the OM's parents and family?

ITA. OM and his BW are separated. Don't expect him to keep any promise he's made to her about being with her on Sunday if he thinks he has a better offer with WW. All he has to do is call OMW and tell her he isn't feeling well and won't be coming over. Then it's off to WW.

I'm sure that plan is in place. OMW just doesn't know it yet.

I was feeling the same way. I can say this, OM is 1000 miles away, WW is starting back into a job soon (3-4 weeks) in a technical field that she has been away from for 5 years, and she is easily distracted by everything going on at the house including everyday life that she has had a hard time getting any work done. I have asked the OMW to "keep an eye on things" at her end. At the very least I would be very surprised if the NC continues this weekend.

That I have not done. I did ask OMW to. I will check in with her to see how that is coming along.

\

SS, they need to hear from you, the disgruntled husband. I would contact them directly and ask them to persuade their son to leave your wife alone.

Has she always been this way, having to leave the house to get work done? Or is this a new affliction?

I've never had to leave my home to get peace and quiet. I may have gone to my bedroom to read if the TV is on, or maybe I'll go into the computer room if there's a lot of activity in the house. But I've never had to go away for the weekend. Nor would I want to.

Due to his job, OM can not take a day off very easily. The only other thing I could think of would be if WW went to him. Short of stalking WW, is there anything I should be doing other than enjoying the weekend with my kids?

It is stalking to know where your wife is? I would expect this is a ploy to hook up with the OM this weekend. Your wife could just as easily shut the door and study at home. Ask her where she is going and tell her you will be verifying this. Otherwise you can presume she is going off to hook up with loserboy.


She meant he can cancel his meeting with his wife. And the OMW doesnt know when he works. He can tell her anything.

They are probably hooking up this weekend.

SS, you need to confront your wife about this. This is a bullcrap cover story so she can meet her OM.

Have you been monitoring her via spyware, keyloggers and GPS? Do you have a GPS on her car?

\

Actually, I would be hiring a PI to follow her this weekend.

WW has the laptop admin locked. I tried installing a keylogger and need the admin password first. I really didn't think I needed a GPS tracker until now due to the distance between WW and OM. I have a phone recorder going but that is it right now.

What is the phone recorder on? Her cell phone?

Just the land line.

SS, I would be raising holy hell about this. Where is she going and how will you verify her whereabouts? You shouldn't tolerate her running off to see the OM and you need PROOF that isn't happening because her story about going off to "study" is bullcrap. She can "study" at home.

You don't help your marriage in any way by pretending to accept her excuses to carry on her affair. It just makes you look gullible at best and COMPLACENT at worst. Complacence reflects a LACK OF CARING.

Dr HArley would tell you to cause as much conflict as possible in the affair, SS. That is what you need to do. Raise hell about this plan to go off to "study" and expose the affair to the OM's parents and facebook friends. Don't sit there and roll over, my friend.

I just confirmed again with OMW that she will keep tabs on OM all weekend. I will say WW has done this sort of thing in the past when she has been brushing up on things for an exam or something. I agree it looks very fishy and I will need to figure out how to verify the legitimacy of this. I know where she will be going this weekend (or at least where she says she will be this weekend). I guess the kids and I will be going on a road trip to check up on mom.

I just learned from OMW that OM's family basically condones his actions or at least they see no problem. I have asked her to think about people in his life that may have an influence on him and to expose the A to them.

SS, assume that won't happen. Don't depend on OMW's promises - she has very limited control over her WH!

"Hi, BW. Sorry, I can't make it over to the house today. I've got to take a good friend to the doctor/another state/hunting lodge, etc."

THEN what's she going to do?

I am betting she has met up with him before using this ploy and would encourage you to go surprise her.


I would expose the affair to his parents and ask them to use their influence to persuade him to leave your wife alone. That is ok if they "condone" it, but it might be that they don't believe his wife and believe the OM's lies. They would believe you. You wouldn't believe how many gullible BS's will tell us somethjing like "oh, my WS told his parents and they think he should follow his heart!" when in truth, the WS told his parents a load of crap and they know nothing about the affair. At the worst, it would cause conflict in the affair and the OM would know you are not going to stand by and allow this to happen. Also, I seriously doubt all his facebook friends would condone it either.

If they already know, then there is no reason NOT to call them.

Keep in mind that her "tab keeping" has not prevented him from having an affair for a very long time. He has been carrying on an affair for a very long time right under her nose. Her effectiveness in this regard is very suspect.

Got home a bit early today from work. Things were not in a good place when I left for work this morning and I wanted to have a chance to chat with WW before she left for the weekend. Yeah, she's still real pissed. She wrote me a short note about how angry she feels that I exposed to her friends and family. She says that she has been trying to move forward in this process with trust and respect. I don't think I even need to comment on that last statement.

I explained to her that what I was doing was what I felt was best for her, me, us, and our family. I hoped that one day she would understand my motives. That I chose specific people in our lives to contact. I didn't just walk down the street ringing doorbells telling the world.

Like I said, she is heading out this weekend to get away from the house and to brush up on some things before she gets back to work. I wanted to assure myself that this was what she was doing so I went through her bag that was packed in the car. It all checked out. She did catch me snooping which wasn't good. That kind of fed the rage that she has inside her right now. I am wondering how much worse this is going to get. Trust is a major issue for us right now. She asked me why I can't take her word for what she says. I told her that I got burned real bad this summer when I did that and I was trying to protect myself. The whole "trust but verify" thing. I feel like I had to do these things to move forward but wonder if I made things worse in the long run.

One of her major beefs with how she has been living is that she has felt like she is being controlled. She sees me trying to break up the A as just that. Me trying to control her life. Again, I told her that I was trying to do what was best for our family and that we could not get to a place where we could negotiate unless that was gone.

Another issue that she has been complaining about is the whole lack of boundaries that she feels is going on in the house. Right now she sees this mistrust and snooping as an invasion of her privacy. My mistrust is reinforcing her decision to move out and get away from that problem.

She has said to me repeatedly that the problems we have aren't related to the A. That the A could end today and she would still want to leave.

This is tough. At least I have the kids all weekend.

Unfortunately, these are the words of someone who is very active in an affair. Your wife has no right to the privacy to destroy you behind your back. You have a RIGHT to know absolutely everything she does. And the reason she doesn't like you snooping? Because she has something to hide. People who have nothing to hide don't hide.

The affair is going strong, SS. I am sorry to say. That is why she wants to split up and that is why she objects to you snooping.

You should promise her that she can "trust" you to watch her like a hawk so she cannot carry on an affair behind your back.

And you need to go find her this weekend. She is hiding something and you have a right to find out what.

Dr Bill Harley, founder of Marriage Builders:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

This is because she wants to distract you from her affair. No WS wants it said that a marriage ended over an affair. Her goal is to deflect the blame to you. CLASSIC behavior.

No marriage is perfect without problems shortsleeves but having an affair just adds poison and if the energy spent towards the affair partner was spent brainstorming how to build a great marriage....it would be more logical.
Affairs are not good solutions to marriage issues.

Forgive me for this, SS, but

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! That's a good one, coming from an adulterer! Yessiree, that's a knee-slapper, alright.

Silly waywards.

SS,

Take comfort in knowing that everything she said is straight out of the script. It is directly out of the wayward script and as predictable as the fact that there the sun will come out tomorrow.

I commend you on taking action.

There is no moving forward in this process and tell her that you haven't violated her privacy at all. You've violated her secrecy and there is a BIG difference.

Don't cower to her.

Don't beg.

Be James Bond. Be cool.

When she accuses you of being controlling, simply fog talk reverse her, "I wish I didn't have to snoop either."

When she says she can't trust you, "I wish I could trust you."

There's always the Plan FU, which usually involves something like, "Stop giving me sh*t about your privacy! You went out and fu**ed another man! Don't give me crap about anything! You have no right to and quit with the BS about respect and privacy. You've lost all rights to have any of those when you took your clothes off for someone else!"

But....others may disagree with saying that. I think it would be VERY powerful when delivered in a calm manner, like James Bond.

Do the people that are hiring her know about what she's doing and why she's seeking employment NOW....

Might be good information for them as just maybe someone there in human resources will be aware that waywards make terrible employees. They exploit company resources (computers, emails, cell phones, desk phones) to carry on their fantasy relationships. They call in sick, are unpredictable and just flighty. I'm surprised your wife had the ability to even follow through getting a job...but the affair has been going for most of this year.

Exposure is your only weapon. Keep doing it....and just tell her she can TRUST that you're not going to sit idly by and not fight for HER and your family. She can also "TRUST" that if and when there is a final divorce in your case...you won't be her friend. She can TRUST that you will model appropriate behavior to your children and teach them to avoid and distance themselves from people that abuse them.

See...you ARE trustworthy.

Mr. W

p.s. - IF you recover...she will THANK YOU for doing this and saving her from this huge mistake she's making. The only thing she MIGHT be mad about it....WHAT TOOK YOU SO LONG. If you don't recover your marriage...well, it wasn't meant to be and you'll at least be on your way to personal recovery knowing you did the best you could for her and the kids.

So, I am ready to get to the next act in this script. What can I expect next?

I have confirmed with OMW that they are not with each other this weekend but they are emailing. No real surprise there. There is no cell service where WW is staying.

Do they have phones there? And how do you know they are emailing? Do you have the emails?

No, I have not exposed to HR. I thought about telling them or even her future supervisor about hints and decided against it. I thought that really fell under the career sabotage category. I did not think that was the best way to reclaim any sort of trust between us. I happen to work at the same facility and she knows full well that I can ruin her career at any moment if I wanted to. This was a case where I really felt that it was in the best interest of my kids for her to be employed there. For a number of reasons.

I really feel like this is unraveling very quickly. My hope for a positive outcome is definitely waning after the fallout from the last few days. I don't know that I have ever seen WW that angry. How long does it usually take for them to cool off after the affects of the exposure have been felt?

The next step in all of this is to have them go to no contact. Only until that is established will there be any real hope to save your marriage.

If exposure continues, then it's onto Plan B, which will mean writing a letter with your conditions for her to return and getting an intermediary (IM) who can filter any communications from her to you.

Since you have little ones, you may need to get a formal separation filed and have her pay you child support.

I advise you to consult a lawyer right now and get prepared. I'm not telling you to file. I'm telling you to be prepared.

Read up on Plan B. That's the next step.

No phones that I know of. Email seems to be their vehicle of choice for communication. OMW has some way of tracking his email. I think she must have his PW or something. She has been filling me in off and on tonight. I was able to get her to expose to OM mother and sister today. It sounded like they did not really believe what she was telling them or care forthat matter. I encouraged her to keep talking to them calmly. Maybe they would hear the message eventually.

SS, your marriage is in better shape today than it was last week. The reason your wife is furious is because inflicted damage on her affair. That is good, not bad. My concern is that it wasn't comprehensive enough to really kill the affair.


Didn't she give them evidence of the affair and ask to speak to her husband?

This is why you need to contact them yourself. This woman is very very timid and cannot seem to even expose an affair. As I said earlier, they may not believe her, but they would believe a husband calling.

This is one of the most critical exposures and it hasn't been done.

Is the OMW sharing these emails with you?

The hotel does not have phones?

WW is staying in a bunk house. There might be a pay phone but either way, they are communicating with each other.

I really don't think the A is dead either. Part of me wants them to just get it over with and start their relationship together. As stupid as that sounds, I really feel like if the two of them are dealing with each other in the real world instead of this fantasy world thay are in right now, they would soon realize how incompatible they are and how dumb an idea it was for them to think it would work. I don't really want it to ever get to that point but this gets frustrating and tiring.

It's not. You have evidence the affair is still on. Did the OMW share the emails with you? What are they saying?

SS,

Plan B serves two purposes: It protects you and helps you get your head on straight, and it forces OM to meet all of WW's ENs. That puts everything on the affair partner and really puts a lot of pressure on OM to leave his wife or go to WW.

Many OM don't jump at the chance.

There's no gurantees, since Plan B pushes the affair partners together to basically either burn out or carry on.

But it is meant to help you heal, primarily, and shield you from the abuse.

So you aren't totally far off in your assessment that the next step might be to let them have at it without you in the way (Plan B).

Read up on it.

SS,

Get the numbers from OMW and call his family. Get copies of emails, print them and offer them as proof to anyone who needs proof. His family may need proof.

Who have you exposed to?

OMW is translating the emails right now. I have asked her to save them or at least print them out. They may be needed later.

Can you ask her to just forward them to you? I'd like to see you in possession of those as opposed to having her save them.

Is OM foreign? Are they emailing in a foreign language? What do you mean, she is 'translating' the emails?

I am still unsure if OM will actually jump ship and leave his family to relocate here. After talking with OMW he really seems to be on the fence still. That may all be an act though.

Sorry about that. No not foreign. What I meant was OMW was giving me the highlights of what was being written in the emails. I haven't heard back yet whether she can save or print the emails.

SS,

Who knows about this relationship? It sounds like more exposure is needed.

Get a copy of the emails. Stop her access to the money.

SS????? I don't get it. You need to know what they are saying. Why isn't she forwarding you the emails??

SS, it is extremely frustrating to see 2 married people doing absolutely nothing to bust up an ongoing affair, other than sitting around regaling themselves with the contents of their emails. This affair cannot be busted up like this. It is going to take a much more proactive approach.

Here you have evidence of an ongoing affair and what are you doing? You and the OMW are doing.......absolutely nothing. You can't save a marriage if you enable the affair.

You need the contents of those emails. You need to know their plan so you can make your plan.

I have exposed to my parents, my sister, WW parents, WW close cousin, 4 of WW close friends, 3 of my close friends and co-workers, & OMW. OMW has exposed to her family, OM mother and sister.

I have asked OMW to forward any emails she has to me.

WW is using her own money for this. She has savings.

Good man!!

SS, is the OMW a timid woman? It doesn't sound like she has done much at all to bust up the affair. What is your impression?

SS,

Now that exposure has occured, it's time for a plan to kill this affair. Have you gotten an support from her family or friends?

Have you exposed to her co-workers or her HR department? How much savings does she have? Protect all other money, she may need more and you should not provide.

You may want to look at Plan B...... I will let the Vets respond to that.

Plan B appears to be the next step.

That means darkness. But you basically have to ask her to leave.

Dr. H would probably encourage you to hang in there and Plan A for as long as you can stand it.

That's very likely. He is probably waffling because he doesn't want to commit to either woman - he wants them both. He likes it just like it is. That's why it's so critical to expose this to the harsh light of reality.

Thank her for her kind offer to translate, but just ask her to forward them. It appears that rehashing what is in them is consuming a lot of time.

The A is dead. I am going to obviously monitor things to ensure there is no relapse but talking with WW over the last few days, she is genuinely done with dealing with the waffling and craziness that the OM is exhibiting. She has told him it is over between them and he is on his own from here on. She recognized finally that he did not have his stuff together to make any kind of serious go at things. He wasn't going to go all in and leave his life, career, family, etc. for WW. I have confirmed this with OMW and they sound like they are back working on their stuff on their end.

My problem now is that WW is real pissed at our situation. I made some major withdrawals last week with the exposures and the snooping. She does not feel secure living in the house now and wants to leave ASAP. She intends on moving out and has told me she still does not see any future together with me. She told me last night that she will be looking to start dating (some one else) and wanted to know if I was going to continue to stalk her every move. You see my problem. This A appears to be dead but WW still has no feelings for me. I am afraid I did too much damage killing the A and wonder if we will be able to get to a point where we could even discuss our future together. I know I don't want some crazy open relationship with her but I don't know if I can go through killing another A. She asked me last night if I wanted to start legal papers and I let her know it was too early for that.

SS, what is happening here is that the affair is not dead. She is moving out to pursue her affair. And using your exposure as justification and a way to blame you. You already know they were in touch over the weekend.

It is not exposure that caused the damage, but her affair. If your wife was serious about recovering your marriage, exposure would not stop her. But she is not serious.

Just let her know that you won't cooperate with any divorce schemes and you certainly will not go along with any continued adultery [ie: "dating"]

Just be nice, keep snooping, keep exposing and don't let her abuse you.

Did you get the emails from the OMW?

OMW was unable to come up with any emails. I don't know how she was viewing the messages but the account that OM and WW were going back and forth on has been closed.

I will continue to monitor things the best I can. I am skeptical that the A is done but everything I have seen and heard says that it is. Whether this lasts and doesn't start up again is another issue.

I am going to keep pushing the plan A full bore in the mean time.

Have to agree with Mel. The affair is still on or dormant.

Either that or she is having a fit because it is truly over and she has nowhere to run now.

But I suspect that it's simply dormant.

Don't let her use your exposure as a weapon. If she starts harping on it, say, "Stop right there. Your affair brought all of this on. I only brought it to light and I don't regret it one bit. You are the one that has betrayed this family and betrayed me. You are the one that needs to get her crap together. I don't want to hear anything else about my exposure of your affair. It's done and it was a result of YOUR actions, not mine. Now, want to discuss how we can fix our marriage?"

Show her you have a pair and aren't afraid of her. Her huffing and puffing is an attempt to control you because you cower at her anger.

She's angry and perhaps you'll need to tiptoe a few days as she settles down but slowly and eventually you've got to start having conversations....real honest conversations with her whereupon you:

1. Meet her need for conversation
2. Start planting seeds
3. LISTEN

Although the affair is over (if it's really over...keep snooping and realize they often have "closure contact")...until she's done with withdrawal and in a place where she can really decide to commit or not to a recovery program I'd say...PLAN A continues.

I think you are already aware and have already been coached to discuss with her what the best outcome to this situation would be for your family....that you and she commit to a recovery plan and rebuild a loving committed marriage of extraordinary care that both she and the kids will be proud of.

As you pressure her gently towards committing to TRY a recovery plan I think some talking points would be:

1. I am not going to file for divorce and if you do I will fight you until the end at which point I'll be completely done with you. You will also be seeking primary custody with supervised visitation for her. OM will have to testify as well as embarrassing discovery of all family members about their behavior and role in the destruction of the family. *note- I'd hesitate to give up too much legal strategy and certainly insure she's not tape recording you.

2. If she would just commit to TRYING, really TRYING a recovery program for one year, where just you and her work on your marriage and try to rebuild it and she has NO CONTACT with OM or any other men, THEN you promise that if it fails you'll be OK with an amicable cheap quickie divorce.

Basically...scenario #1 and #2 will take the same amount of time because in your state (whatever state that is...this is just a conversation) an unwilling participant in a divorce proceeding can drag out the divorce process for up to two years. Scenario #1 also will cost a TON more money than #2. Thus...she's got nothing to lose by just giving the family a shot...which, once again...IS the best outcome for everyone...including the children, isn't it?

Hopefully you'll wear her down and eventually get the recently former wayward battle cry..."FINE...I'm trapped and completely stuck with you...I'll try but just know that I will NEVER love you entirely...I'm just staying for the children". Don't sweat it. They all say that. Recovery has to start somewhere so why not rock bottom. Trust that the program will build the recovery so what she says TODAY is irrelevant. Just stay calm and secure in yourself with the knowledge that despite what she thinks about you...YOU know you are her best chance/shot at happiness and you're being a really awesome husband and father even standing there giving her a shot at recovery in spite of what she's done and is saying. Be confident (quietly to yourself) that she'll one day appreciate all you did to fight for her and if she's not...she's not worth continuing to be married to anyway and divorce would become a welcome respite.

It's a noble fight for marriage and family you are undertaking. Many men before you have shrunk in it's wake. One way or another YOU will make it....however, she really only has one way to make it and that's through you. She's lucky to have you...for now.

Mr. Wondering

SS, I assure you the affair is not over. Do you have a keylogger on her computer? What about spyware on her phone?

SS,

He wasn't going to go all in and leave his life, career, family, etc. for WW. I have confirmed this with OMW and they sound like they are back working on their stuff on their end.

Stress this over and over, give WW the exact quotes if you have them, if need be interview OM and get a recording. Betrayers hate getting betrayed like conmen hate getting conned.

God Bless
Gamma

This is waaaay too tidy. They've gone underground.

Thanks for the guidance Mr. W. Your post helps.

Here is my update on things.

I have been continuing to Plan A as best as WW lets me. She is still in NC with OM for now at least. My issues right now are as follows. I made some serious LB during the exposure period. WW really resents the fact that I went and talked to other people during the exposure. She feels like it was none of their business and that they had no reason to know. I told her that I felt that it was the necessary thing to do to end the affair and that I would not appologize for doing that. I was respectful in what I said, it was not a smear campaign. Since exposure a number of the people I had talked to have spoken up to WW which I was relieved. WW took this exposure as a way for me to drive a wedge between her and her friends/relatives that did care enough to speak up. I don't know if I can take credit for the A ending but either way, it appears to be over for the present time. I also had a major LB when I searched WW car prior to her leaving for the weekend. WW is still harping on that one. Is there a way that I can rebuild trust with WW? That seems to be our number one issue right now.

WW has found an apartment and is planning on moving out in the middle of December. This news knocked me on my rear. In the back of my mind I thought it would happen eventually, I guess that I thought since the A was over, there might be some lifting of the fog. Is there ever a situation where seperation between couples is a good thing? Could this provide a way out of the fog for WW? She would be on her own without my support and without the kids everyday. I asked WW if she planned on inviting up the OM once she was settled into her new place and she said no, not any time soon. To me, she is kind of leaving the door open for him which bothers me. The last time they spoke, she told OM that she did not want to hear from him ever again unless he was able to sort his life out. That sounds to me like she isn't totally over him. I asked WW if she planned on dating other people when after she moved out. She said yes eventually. I quickly followed that up with asking her if we could date. She said yes but not in the first few weeks. She says she needs to establish her new self in the apartment. She told me right now that she can't stand to be around me and dating me right now would not happen. I did get her to agree that the best thing for our family and for us would be for the two of us to live in a happy, loving, marriage. She says that she doesn't see how that could happen and that she doesn't think she can be the wife I need. I told her that she was doing a wonderful job up until about February/March (when she first took up with OM and mentally divorced me). I have repeated to her that I know we can be better, more in love than we were at our best. I have a plan. This isn't based on some wish I made after I threw a penny into a fountain. I told her that I got married not knowing how to be a good husband. I know now.

Right now, I am continuing plan A but am thinking about when to implement plan B. I am thinking about seeing how things go once she moves out and then re-evaluating.

Hi shortsleeves, thanks for the update. The reason she is planning on leaving is because the affair is still on. They might have backed off a little for now to throw off suspicions but there is a plan there to continue the affair.


The reason she is angry is because she is still in the fog. The reason she is still in the fog is because of her affair. So of course she doesn't like the fact that others know. That is because she wants to keep her affair secret.

Don't argue with her about it and stop trying to reason with a falling down drunk. It is a waste of time. Once her affair ends and the fog rolls off, she won't be resentful. If that ever happens.


It is not.


That is not a lovebuster. She is only angry because she has something to hide. The fact that she is angry about this should raise your distrust level about 1000%. People who have nothing to hide, don't hide.

So tell her that her anger about this causes you to trust her LESS, not more. If she wants to earn your trust, this is not the way to do it.

Let her know that she can trust you to watch her like a hawk and if that means searching her car that is what you will do. You have a RIGHT to know every damn thing she does as she is your wife. As such, everything she does affects you.

Smile when you say it.

She is trying to gaslight you and scare you into stopping your snooping.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

None of what you did is a LB.

It's all normal and her reaction is typical.

You have a right to snoop. Your life is put in danger through her infidelity. Do you get that? What STD has she exposed you to?

Don't apologize for anything. Simply keep repeating, "I will do what is necessary to save this marriage."

I'd also let her know that if she moves out that you will file papers for abandonment and will request child support and alimony.

Don't be afraid of her. Attack the affair and attack the waywardness.

I think if I had to put money on it, the A is in some weird dormant stage. That they have taken a break from the day to day correspondence to get to a place in their lives at some point where they would be able to invest more in their relationship. I know they will never get to a point where they will both be able to make it work but I don't think WW has truly dropped OM. From my snooping, I have found evidence that supports the NC and that she feels sorry that they were unable to work things out. That she still cares for him but he needs to find his own path. I am almost more afraid of the next OM that will enter once WW has this new freedom. Right now, WW has made it clear she wants nothing to do with me. I have pointed out that she did say "right now" and that people's perspectives change once conditions change and time has passed.

I listen to the MB radio program daily now and Dr. H mentioned a couple of times this weeek something along the lines that he doesn't believe that all marriages should be saved. That if there is a situation where one spouse does not want to try to fix things then there is no real way to restore the M. I am wondering more and more if that might be what I am facing. No matter what I do or how I feel, I am doomed to fail if WW wants no part of being married to me. I guess I am just down at the news that WW has found an apartment.

One of the big things that WW has been complaining about are boundaries. She feels her personal boundaries have been constantly broken by me and other family members. She feels like she has lost her personal identity somehow and that is the source of her need to get her own space and her need for privacy. Everytime I have stepped over her personal boundaries by snooping or exposing, I think she feels like that is one more example for WW. I did bring up the point that it was her lack of personal boundaries that let this OM into her life.

I can't tell you how many times I have told WW in the last few weeks that the reason I am doing what I am doing (exposing, snooping) is because it is what's best for our marriage and our family. WW does not get it. At all. I am thinking she won't understand until the fog has lifted.

It's time for some serious hardball. Don't ask if you can date her after she leaves! You need to start making plans to go into plan b when she leaves. Get your legal house in order.

You have a very brazen, entitled WW who is only saying she might date you after she moves to keep your hopes up and keep you compliant. The affair has gone underground and she wants to set up a love nest for herself and whoever.

More stick, less carrot. Paint a very ugly picture of divorce and stop feeling bad about checking up on her. The woman strikes me as someone who is very used to getting her way. You can stop playing that game now.

Protect your money and your kids. Get the lawyer going and prepare. She needs a shock. WW's like yours get a shock when their loving and compliant husbands start to look more like James Bond. You need to stop looking for a glimmer of hope from her because she's not going to give it. One you start to close the door on HER, she might turn...might.

Either she did this for show or she is moving out in order to pursue her affair. They were just in contact weekend before last and I suspect the OM knows his wife is looking so this was said for show. Your wife may have a secret second cell phone in her car which would explain why she is so scared to have you search.


You should let her know that you have a boundary against her secrecy and her affair. You won't hide her affair and you will not abdicate your right, as her husband, to know everything she does. Let her know YOUR boundaries and that you won't honor HER boundaries because they are all based on her desire to deceive you. As long as she is untrustworthy, you will snoop. Tell her to TRUST that!

She feels this way because she is hiding something. She wants the right to the privacy to destroy you behind your back. That is like the bank robber telling the cops he "has boundaries" and they shouldn't be snooping on him.

You did not "step over her personal boundaries" by snooping and exposing. She has no right to any such boundary. You should NEVER respect any such "boundary." You have a RIGHT to know everything she does and says and if she has an affair, then that news should be spread wide and far.

Exactly. And this is why you don't even TRY to reason with a fogged out wayward. It is unrealistic to imagine she will get it.

SS, I lived through this. WXW told me that she felt we'd be back together someday after having time apart to "heal."

Healing for her, aparently, involved dating and screwing other men while I sat by and waited to see if she'd come back.

This is nothing more than wayward speak for "I want to be free to screw around. I'll tell you whatever you need to hear in order to get what I want and have you not make it hard on me."

This is where you have to wield the big Plan B stick and file papers for abandonment and child and spousal support.

I think that everything you say is a real likely to be what I am facing. I don't think the likelihood of the WW exiting from the fog once she "gets some space" is too high.

I am readying myself mentally for plan B. I have spoken with a lawyer. I also don't see any possible exit out of the plan B where our M could survive. Right now I am feeling like a plan B is the prelude to an inevitable plan D.

SS, have you read Surviving an Affair?

Yes. Much of it multiple times. I have it right here next to me.

ok, good. I just wanted to make sure you had read the story of Sue and Jon.

Time to hide a real time gps an a DVAR in WW car.

I am familiar with their story and I do see some similarities in that story and mine. However, I am becoming less and less hopeful that WW and I will get to a point where she will want to try to fix things (even after a plan B). Right now, I feel like she would be overjoyed if I started a plan B today. I am going to try it either way. It is just going to be a challenge with two small kids.

I am really thinking some of the earlier posts were spot on. I do think there is a real possibility that the A has gone underground or is just in a holding pattern right now.

You are very good at describing WW. She is an only child who has always gotten what she wants.

I have my money secured and I have a plan for handling the kids. I have spoken with a lawyer. I just need to iron out the time frame for closing the Plan B door. WW will begin moving out in a few weeks it looks like. I need to figure out if I start plan B then or continue the plan A for a short period longer.

The way things look like right now, I don't really see WW turning around once she leaves. Very hard for me to imagine that type of scenario.

SS, you can do Plan B with small children, people do it all the time. However, I wouldn't worry about Plan B right now. After she moves out, her affair will crumble and get difficult just like Sue's affair in SAA. When that happens, you can be there to catch her if you feel so inclined.

The reason Dr H told Jon to go into Plan B is because he was worn down emotionally from her long term affair. You are not there yet.

Quote

The way things look like right now, I don't really see WW turning around once she leaves. Very hard for me to imagine that type of scenario.

The others are right when they say she's moving out because the affair isn't dead. There's no conditionals in a NC letter, saying no contact unless you get your life together means "I'm waiting for you to divorce your wife like you said you would." She's moving out and sending a message to OM saying the ball's in your court now. But you'd be surprised how many WW actually leave and then find out that OM had absolutely no intention of ever leaving his family. After exposure that is the second thing that usually kills an affair, when the WW realizes they've been played and fell for it because they disengaged their brain for too long. As the fog starts to lift a little they begin to feel humiliated and used and the big light bulb moment is when they realize the guy that really cares for them has been there all along, steadfastly standing by trying to save the marriage despite an almsot steady diet of scorn, contempt and disrespect. They realize what real strength is and real commitment, and that they almost threw it away because they weren't "happy".

So be strong SS, continue on the course you've set. I think there still is a chance, even if you do have to go to Plan B, for you to still pull it back from the precipice. You go dark and shortly after she gets dumped, and things will come to a rapid denouement. Stay resolute, all is not lost yet.

You say you've contacted a lawyer, have you updated your attorney with the fact that your wife has definite plans to leave and has leased a place? Time to make sure she can't just walk out with your kids.

BTW, you didn't LB your wife by snooping on her, and I think you have it backwards when you say you need to earn back your wife's trust, after all it wasn't you that cheated, right? And why does she expect you to respect "personal boundaries" when she has shown that she can't be trusted? "personal boundaries" = ways to hide my affair

I know I can pull off a plan B with kids, it just adds another level of logistical complexity to things.

ML, you have been right about so many things in my situation so far. I so hope you are right about this too. I feel like I need to let some of the dust settle with things before I begin a plan B. WW has the apt. and as of today has a start date for work. One of the things I am not going to hesitate on doing is passing on all bills for expenses that I have been picking up since WW left work when our oldest was born.

I do admit, I am noticing my feelings toward WW changing through this. I guess the LB withdrawals she is making are adding up. I do still have perspective and want to save our marriage and our family from all of this.

Thank you for your words. This has been a tough couple of days for me and that really helps. I hope you are right about how things look like they may play out. I think you nailed it. I think WW is sending OM a signal: If you want me, you need to make some moves on your side (D his wife, move across country, quit his career,...).

I know things are not definite either way and I keep telling myself to hope for a good outcome but expect nothing.

I spoke to the lawyer about WW moving out to an apt. and how that would work. The lawyer explained that because the apt. was not in the immediate area of our current residence (20 miles away) it gets the visitation part of things a bit more tricky. In the state I am in, like most states, they try to push for 50/50 visitation. With the two parents 20 miles apart 50/50 visitation would probably not be in the best interest of the kids. Too much back and forth transit time. As much as I hate to say this, I feel that WW looks at the kids as getting in the way of her "escape". She really seems to want to be severing all ties with her former life. Including the kids. She has said that she wants to do her part as a parent but I also know she is really looking forward to getting away from them too. I don't know if part of all of this is some atomic over-reaction to cabin fever. Being "shackled" to two needy kids all day, every day, with no escape to the real world???

I know the personal boundaries lecture was a total spin move by WW but she did a really good job at making me feel like I had totally screwed that one up. The more I thought of it, the more I realized that her A was the biggest way she could have disrespected and broken our personal boundaries.

Since the weekend is upon us and it's a little slower and you may have time to read...there's a old poster's story that MAY be interesting to you. His wayward wife moved out...as I recall he stayed in Plan A a short while under out guidance then went into Plan B. In Plan B he recouped his strength and with the guidance and encouragement of Steve Harley he saw an opening and perhaps weakness in his WW's resolve to divorce him so he went BACK to Plan A. I won't tell you the ending to his story but I think it might parallel yours.

His posting name is/was (he hasn't stopped by in a long time):

mywifeilove

Here's where it began: mywifeilove's first thread

*note: the links in his signature line don't work anymore. As I recall he had 3 major threads. If you click his name and then "View Posts" you can then click a button in the upper right hand corner "Topics Created" to see any and all thread's mywifeilove started. It's easier to just look at HIS threads than going through all 800+ posts of his.

*If you do get into the story his picture is likely still on the MB photo thread (which links to Faith's MB photobucket account).

Mr. Wondering

I am glad you recognized that. It is easy to be gaslighted by a manipulative WW when you are under fire like this. That is why it is helpful to post this stuff here so we can bring you back to reality and retrain your perspective. WS' live in the land of OZ and it is tough not to go there.

Try to hold steady for now emotionally. Let your wife move out but protect yourself legally. When she gets a taste of this new life, it will become real and the reality of it is going to be HARD. She'll have to support herself and she will miss the kids more than she realizes.

You have an advantage now because of her desire to leave the kids. Kids stay with you which sets a precedent for custody. Perhaps she will end up having to pay you child support?

I'm with the above poster in feeling like her OM might not want to jump into this new reality with her. You should contact his wife and update her. The OM's wife needs to know that your wife is trying to create a place for him to come to.

You are doing a great job of dealing with a very hard situation. Do not beg or plead. She believes you will wait no matter what. Let her know through your actions (you stay busy, have fun with kids, take care of yourself) that you are not waiting for her sorry a$$.

She is spoiled and has never had to pull her own weight. This will work in your favor when she realizes her romantic fantasy is really a steaming pile of crap.

I agree with this. I think the affair will crumble when she moves out because the OM will not leave his wife for her. The only downside of this is that his wife is a very weak, timid gal so she might allow him to have both. That will prolong the affair.

I have been going back and forth with OMW and she is up to date withthe latest news. We both plan on contacting our respective OP on Monday to try and knock something loose. I am going to talk about how he is destroying 2 families and that I am not divorcing my wife or going to just disappear. I know he is also in the fog so reasoning with him is not likely to go far.

I do get the sense that they are readying themselves to make a move. I don't know yet if that means OM will be cutting ties at home and relocating uP this way or what. If I had to guess, it seems like they may have had some plan and WW is implementing her side of the plan by moving out and getting employment. Now it is a matter of whether OM will hold up his side and leave his life and move up with WW.

WW also brought up the computer fraud and abuse act to me in passing discussion last night. I am not a lawyer and was not even familiar with this until I googled it. She was trying to tell me that when I gained access to her private email account back in August on D-Day that was a criminal offense. Is anyone familiar with this act and does a home computer fall under it? From what I saw, the act involves government computers and such. I thought she was trying to get me to run off.

She is grasping at straws and threatening you to get you to back off.

Hey. Will she bring charges against you and risk making the 6o'clock news? What do you think?!

Ask her to lay charges as you can't wait for her adultery to be made public and if she paid attention to the facts she would lose the case.

I realize this was kind of a threat to try to get me to go away. I was very calm when we spoke about it and didn't get sucked in. She brought up the fact that my job requires a security clearance and that would also be in jeapordy if I were to be charged. I thought she was just blowing hot air but also felt I should try to get smart on the rules. Is there anything I legitimately need to be watchful of as far as the CFAA goes?

SS, I am sorry to say that is not going to get you very far. The best way to kill this affair is to expose it. They have a PLAN and if you can get proof of it, you could expose it everywhere. That is your best chance of killing this affair and saving your marriage.

Has the OMW exposed the affair? I get the sense that she is very timid and has not done much to kill it. What is your sense?

HOW are they communicating and how could you get the goods? I am very puzzled at what the OMW is doing as far as snooping goes? What is her intel?

And your wife is just trying to scare you away from snooping on her. Just ignore it.

OMW has told me she has exposed to her family and OM's family. No real support in either case. She has said that OM does not have any close friends or associates that would be of any influence. I don't know her or their living situation at all so I don't know if that is accurate or not.

I realize that us contacting the OP will not probably not go anywhere. I thought it would be good to let the OM know that I am not going to just walk away and disappear if he does try to start things up this way. I don't quit.

I have been trying to coach the OMW on things to do (plan A) and such. She sounds like she is very motivated to save her M like me. I do think she may be starting to run out of gas though. I have told OMW that if she gives in that she is basically opening the door for OM to moving on to the next phase of their plan.

OMW was able to gain access to OM's email account. I believe that account has been shut down though. Alot of the other intel she has gained about what is going on has been from her just stopping by OM's apt. and reading notes. OM sounds like he is pretty sloppy when it comes to covering his tracks.

I am trying to ignore my WW's scare tactics, I just wanted to educate myself on the facts.

Has she exposed the affair wide and far? One can never tell in advance who will or won't have an influence and more often, NO ONE has any influence. Just exposing it to the direct circle of friends and family is often very effective. Because even though they might not have direct influence, just them KNOWING puts pressure on the affair.

Do you see what I mean here? You can't discount exposure targets on whether you imagine they will have an influence or not. That is too subjective and deals out effective exposure targets. One of the biggest mistakes that BS's make is doing a trickle exposure. It is never enough to kill the affair but just enough to piss of the affairees and alert them to go further underground.


I MISUNDERSTOOD WHAT YOU SAID!! THIS IS A GREAT IDEA!! I thought you were going to speak to your OWN spouses. I think you are right on and I will give you both some talking points:

1. tell the OP that there is no future in the affair because he/she will be eternally hated by your children for breaking up their family

2. they will be eternally hated by the in-laws and will not be allowed to darken their doorstep. Tell them THE WHOLE FAMILY KNOWS ABOUT THEIR SKEEZY AFFAIR

3. Tell the OP that if this goes to divorce that you will file on grounds of adultery and will have the OM subpeonaed into court to give sworn testimony about his affair with your wife. Tell him you are working with the OMW to consolidate proof and that under discovery all their email, cell phone and text records will be subpeonaed.

4. check to see if you have alienation of affection lawsuits in your state and tell him he can expect that.

5. PRETEND LIKE YOU KNOW MORE THAN YOU DO!! This is real easy and it may even get them to admit more. Say that you know they are still in touch, that they have PLANS, and REFUSE to tell him how you know. Just inform him that you are having them both watched and you won't give up your methods.


SS, what do you mean by "give in?" What Dr Harley would tell her to do is go into a very dark PLAN B very soon. Women should only be in Plan A for about 3 to 4 weeks before they begin having severe emotional and physical symptoms. Send her this link: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html


Can she get in there and slip a keylogger on his computer? There is a good one that will email her daily reports of everything he does on the computer. It is easy to install.

It would be great if she could slip this on his computer: http://www.spectorsoft.com/products/eBlaster_Windows/index.asp

If she can get to his computer one time to install it, it will email her the reports and she can control the program remotely.

What....you aren't allowed to access your marital joint email account that you've known the password to forever? Since when was it her "private account"? That email has handled tons of family bills and receipts ON A SHARED COMPUTER for years. Just because she had an affair doesn't suddenly make it a private individual account. It's not like the password was a secret either...she had it on a sticky note attached to the monitor in plain view or was it a password journal sitting out in the open next to the computer? If she's ever shared her password(s) with you that is essentially consent and a waiver of any claim under privacy laws.

These privacy laws weren't designed to be enforced by spouses and family members against each other but she CAN file a complaint and you never know if an overzealous prosecutor might take up the case. (it's very rare but it happened here in Michigan and the Court of Appeals has basically put the case on hold until the prosecutors office can justify why a similar state law can be used against a husband. Leon Walker's Facebook )


Mr. W

Can you send her here?

I have sent her here. I don't know how much time she spent learning here though. Either way, it sounds like OMW folded and signed her D papers yesterday. I was really hoping that wasn't going to happen. I feel like this whole thing just got brought up another level. This is spiraling so fast right now.

On a side note, WW flipped out at me when I told her last night that I wouldn't be able to help her move out. I told her that I wouldn't help her break up this family. I would help her move back in if it came to that but I couldn't do this. Here was another example for her where I let her down. Blah, blah, blah. Whatever. She doesn't get it.

That is exactly the right approach. Does she have an apartment yet?

Did you see my post about things to bring up to the OM?

Yes, WW signed her 12 month lease last Friday. She starts work just before Christmas. I just feel like their "plan" may be coming together.

I saw your post about what to say to OM. Thanks! I have a few more items I want to touch on with OM as well. Let me ask you this. In light of the fact that OM just signed his D papers not even 24 hours ago, does it make sense for me to still talk to him today? I am not trying to be sensitive to his feelings or any BS like that. I was just thinking about whether he would be in any place to have a discussion with me right now. Do I wait until after Thanksgiving? I am still leaning toward calling him today, I just wanted to hear from some of the experts. One other thing. Does it matter if I let WW know if I am contacting him ahead of time or is that not even a factor? Thanks.

I think it is a GREAT IDEA for you to call him today. The timing is perfect. And no, don't let your wife know anything. Let her find out by surprise from the upset OM.

Your idea to do this was VERY GOOD. This is one way to shake them up.

YES !


Do not tell WW about the call.

Even after the fact, you wait for her to react.
You stay calm.
Stay on message.

You're doing great!


PS: We are not 'experts'. We are the peanut gallery.

"Home-wrecking is dirty business. That's what OM "Betty's husband" does. I don't participate in home-wrecking."

Here's a little tip.

Let's say OM is Bob, and his wife is Betty .....

Never refer to OM by his first name "Bob".

Instead, always refer to OM as "Betty's husband".

Example:

"I leave home wrecking activity to Betty's husband."

Repeatedly remind WW that Betty is REAL. Subtly.

Thanks for the link. It sounds like there is no real precedent for these kinds of cases.

I think you may have me mixed up with someone else. The email account was a secret one that she was using to exclusively correspond with OM. Yes, I purchased and used the computer but the email account was hers alone.

WW is supposed to be NC with OM. If she reacts to any news that I contacted OM without my telling her, she will be admitting she broke the NC.
Whatever that is worth...

Nice edit PB! I do wonder if I will be able to keep my comments to myself when WW does get to move out day, assuming WW finds a "friend" to help her out and doesn't just hire a mover. I thought about taking the kids somewhere so we won't have to witness it but I also kind of want to be there to take an inventory of what goes out the door.

EGG ZAK LEE

No contact by me with the OM last night. I will keep trying him though. I tried him after I got out of work yesterday but no answer. I am guessing he is screening his phone calls and didn't recognize the number. I am going to try calling from the house. He has seen that number before.

WW and I talked some about logistics with the kids and how to deal with expenses once she moves out next month. We covered alot but I came out of it feeling like crap. She wanted me to agree to all sorts of things like visitation for the kids next summer and what if scenarios. I kept repeating that I couldn't answer many of the questions because I didn't know how we were going to feel about each other by next summer or if we were even going to be talking. She asked me what I was talking about and told me I sounded like I had something up my sleeve. I told her the only thing I had up my sleeves were two arms. WW then told me that as far as she was concerned she was ready to sign papers (LS or D) and was just waiting for me, nothing had changed. I told her she was exactly right, nothing had changed and I was not signing anything.

WW has started packing and piling up boxes of things in the basement. I went to get something out of the basement and noticed a kitchen item on top of the pile. I had specifically asked for this item for christmas a couple of years ago from my dad, now she was "walking off with it". I took it back upstairs and let WW know that it had made its way into the wrong pile. She then started to flip out and say that it was hers. I told her that I wasn't going to fight about it, this was just an object and I brought it back down to the basement. Later on, WW was crying while she was folding some laundry. I calmly told her that I was sorry that things had gotten out of control over an object. This wasn't worth fighting over, it was just a thing. She then let me know that she didn't want this thing anymore and that she was thinking aobut it and my parents had never given her anything for christmas, birthday, etc. WW is totally delusional. I can list a dozen things they have given her over the years just off the top of my head. Blows my mind.

I know this sounds crude.
But, here goes ....

Are you aware of your WW's menstrual cycle timing?
Is it that time of the month? (don't ask her)

Wow, you nailed that one.

Again!

That didn't even cross my mind.

SS, has there been a formal agreement on the division of your stuff. If not, then let her know that you don't approve of her taking anything without a legal agreement. Any such things can be discussed with your lawyer, but you won't allow stuff to leave the home without papers.

Be strong on this.

No legal agreement. We both agreed that she would take things that were hers before we were married, things that were specifically gifted to her or purchased by her during the M, or if we had duplicates of things, she could take one. I think I am going to be left with a bunch of her crap that she no longer wants. I will have to make a list and then give her 30 days to decide if she is abandoning it. Then off to the dump.

Honestly, we don't have many "things" I care about. I think WW is using this as an opportunity to 1. Downsize and 2. Buy new of what she wants (yes, with her own $).

Apologies in advance if this doesn�t read clearly, believe me, this was very confusing to me.

WW and I had another discussion last night. She initiated it and I gave her multiple opportunities to drop the conversation if she felt like it was getting too heavy. WW is now starting to push to sign something (either a LS or D). Her beef is that she feels like she cannot escape me otherwise. I told her that I was not signing anything. She thinks that even once she moves out, I will be checking up on her and stalking her and will be interfering with her if she chooses to date. As far as WW is concerned, the M is dead and has been for a long time. I told her that once she moves out, I won�t have any control over her. She would have to find her way on her own. That I obviously wouldn�t want her to date anyone else but my ability to influence or stop her from living her life the way she chooses would be very limited at best. I don�t know if I screwed up here by saying that but I didn�t know what else to say. I told her that I hoped that she would take some time once she moved out to reflect on what it was she wanted in life, not just jump into the next relationship.

It appears that WW had not told OM anything about her signing a lease or that she had a start date for work. According to WW, she was in NC with OM. I am still not sure I believe that. OM emailed WW to congratulate her and she was pissed. She says she just wants to avoid all of the chaos that is going on with me, OM, and his W. For now. I still feel like she just wants a time out from everything and would like to start things up with OM at a later date if the conditions suit her. Either that or she would move on to a new OM. I am keeping in mind that these are words that are coming out of the alien�s mouth. OM learned about the start date for work and the lease signing through OMW who I told over the weekend. WW was wound up that I had again spread personal information about her around to people who had no business knowing about it. I told WW that the reason I was emailing OMW was that we were both trying to figure out what the truth was. I told WW that I had been lied to from the beginning of all of this and I was going on the assumption that the lies were continuing. She protested that argument and I followed that up with a few examples where she had recently lied to me (NC with OM and seeing him for dinner in September). I told her that when she was constantly covering her tracks and being secretive that it only led me to believe that she was continuing to lie to me and scheme behind my back.

WW last night brought up the idea that she feels that she is �inflicted� with some kind of need to hit the reset button every 4-5 years or so. She gets bored easily and constantly needs a new challenge. This is true for jobs, homes, hobbies, relationships,� I have actually brought this up to her in the past (right after D-day) and she now seems to be embracing this �condition� or whatever you want to call it. WW is a perfectionist and I have seen her take on some new task or hobby and really sink her teeth into it until she has worked out all of the bugs and has conquered it. It is perfect. At that point, she loses interest because the challenge is gone and she walks away from whatever she was working on. I brought up the fact that no matter what happens with our relationship, she won�t be able to do that with the kids. WW said that our M would be over whether OM existed or not. I talked about how I felt that the reason she could say that with such conviction was that she was still wrapped up in the A with OM. Until that A was done, our relationship would continue to be in a bad place.

I asked in an earlier post whether my exposure or snooping was a LB. I know they weren�t but I do feel like WW sees things differently. Her big gripe has always been that she doesn�t like to feel controlled. I think she views my trying to make an impact on the relationship between OM and WW by exposing the A and by snooping as me attempting to control her life. It was all a big sign of disrespect in her eyes.

I am still going along with the idea that all of this is fog-babble but wanted any opinions on all of this.

I am also questioning right now whether my plan A is being effective at all. I feel like the closer that we get to her move out date, the more WW wants to leave. Once she does move out, I am going to continue to plan A as best I can.

I also will try to contact OM again today. This will most likely get back to WW and she will flip out but so be it.

Thank you in advance for any replies and I wish everyone a happy holiday. I hope everyone can find something to be thankful for in their lives no matter what their situation is.

SS, it seems to me that your wife's main goal is to scare you off from contacting the OMW. She does this by blaming YOU for the OM's phone call when, in fact, it was HER who took his call. She wasn't pissed off at all about that. But she used it to turn it around and blame you to get you to stop speaking to her.

And secondly, EVERY wayward sees snooping as a lovebuster. EVERY WAYWARD. People who have something to hide don't like being snooped on. EVERY wayward wife whose BH interferes with her affair complains of being "controlled."

Its like this, SS. When I was a drunk driver, it was a lovebuster when my DH took my keys away from me. It doesn't mean it was the wrong thing to do, though. And when I sobered up, it was not a lovebuster. It is the same with your wife. If she ever comes out from the fog, she will not resent your snooping.

You are doing great in your conversations with her. The only thing I would add is that you should make sure she understands as long as you are married you have a RIGHT to know everything she does. And ESPECIALLY if she commits adultery. Let her know if she commits adultery that you will use that in the divorce case. And make damn sure she understands that your children are not to be exposed to her adultery partners. <------tell her that, SS!!!

She is trying to set you up so you don't snoop on her to find out she is with the OM and don't use this against her in a divorce case.

Do you have access to her email and cell phone?

This is all fogbabble.

Let her know that you have no desire to control her in any way and that you'd love to feel like you can trust her, but right now you can't.

Let her know that if she is truly willing to earn your forgiveness, then she must be completely open about all her accoutns and contacts and there must be complete transperency.

Blow her mind by telling her that she needs to earn your forgiveness and that you'll have to consider whether or not to forgive her once she starts trying to earn that back.

But you did good on holding your ground on things.

Make it clear that any path towards divorce will not be pleasant and that you won't simply lie down. You will fight for custody, will sue for sole physical and legal custody, and that you will fight tooth and nail in a divorce.

Then present the alternative: I'd like to work on our marriage instead and find ways we can rebuild our marriage.

I thought about it after the conversation was over but if WW didn't want to hear from OM she could have just deleted the email without reading it. She chose to read the email.

I feel like that is a big "IF" whether WW ever comes out of this fog she is in.

I have told WW in the past that I will not allow the kids to be around OM. I will re-emphasize that the next time we chat. I do feel like that will push her D talk more. So be it.

I don't have access to her email or phone. The phone is a crappy trac phone that is probably going right in the garbage as soon as WW starts work. I don't believe there is any way of snooping on a phone of that type.

Can you put a keylogger on her laptop? And what about putting a VAR in her car?

WW and I have been talking about how to handle visitation with the kids and $ issues and I have been pushing the whole idea that WW and I may not be getting along or even talking 6 months from now. I think this is really messing with her because it doesn't really fit in with her master "plan".

I have explained things to WW like this... Her feelings about me and our relationship right now are real and valid. She is completely wrapped up in another life and there is no room in it for us. Once that other life ceases to exist, we can talk about the idea of rebuilding our relationship. Until then, I am not going anywhere and I am not signing anything. I have told her that I would not be the man that I am if I just packed up and gave up because things got difficult. I owe it to the kids, our family, to her, and most important to me to see this thing through to the end no matter what the outcome. She didn't marry someone that just shows up for the happy times.

She usually just shakes her head and throws her hands up.

Let me ask you this. Is it wrong for me to mentally consider my M dead and over, knowing that any way forward for us would really mean starting over from ground zero. What I am getting at is, would it be healthy for me to think about my life and happiness first and let the rebuilding of our M follow? Just something I was thinking about when I was staring at the ceiling this morning at 4AM.

She had the laptop admin password protected the day she took it out of the box. Almost like she wanted to hide something...

I will look into a VAR in her car. The more I think of it, that is kind of her "safe zone".

I got sick of calling OM and him not answering (OMW confirmed that he knows it is my number and is avoiding me). I just called OM and left a message. I was good, I didn't scream and holler and sound like a lunatic, I just went down my list of things that I wanted him to think about. I ended the call by telling him that I hope he enjoys his Thanksgiving tomorrow by spending time with HIS family, I will be enjoying the day spending time with MY family. We'll see where this goes. I hope WW doesn't bail out on coming to the big meal tomorrow because of this. If she does, then it is her loss. If she gives me crap about calling him and stirring it up, I am going to tell her that this is between OM and me. She doesn't need to concern herself with this.

Snark: "He's just a friend. I'm not allowed to call my friends?"

If she tells you that she heard the message you should get upset that she's snooping on you. "That was private...can't I get any privacy anymore". lol

Mr. W

I am in a bit of a crisis now. WW found a VAR in the house and went ballistic. She is seeing a lawyer this week and I am now alienated from my in-laws and some of my family. I have told people my side of the story but that has not helped. Is there anything I can say or do at this point to recover from this? I feel like this was a huge mistake. I didn't even learn anything. Any advice would be welcome at this point. Thanks.

Just keep repeating I will do whatever I have to so I can save my marriage........
Just let her cool down, don't engage in the anger.........
Don't let it stop you from snooping........
You have to know what you are against.......don't worry about others.........
Stick with it.

Just because your wife goes ballistic does not mean there is a crisis, SS. Just calm down. You already knew she was leaving to pursue her affair. This is just part and parcel of her plan. Her rage is just more evidence that she has something to hide.

Quit acting like you have done something wrong!! Every time you show this inappropriate guilt, you hand her a loaded bullet to shoot you with. Tell her you have a RIGHT to know everything she is doing and as long as she sneaks around and hides, you will do what it takes to find out what she is doing. NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO THE PRIVACY TO DESTROY HER SPOUSE BEHIND HIS BACK.

Stop acting like you did something wrong!!

SS, lets practice a little reality testing. I know you are under great pressure from your sneaky, wayward wife so I feel this is necessary.

BAD = having an affair, lying to your spouse, abandoning your family to pursue affair

GOOD = investigating said affairee and uncovering the truth

In other words, it is bad to have an affair; it is not bad to uncover said affair. Your wife is trying to gaslight you into thinking you have done something WRONG.

Tell her you are very sorry; very sorry that she put you in that position. If she were not sneaking around like a rat it wouldn't be necessary to spy on her.

And be sure and tell her that the OMW is having the OM watched. She will take that news right back to the OM. Use her fear AGAINST HER.

BE LOUD AND PROUD, SS~!!!

Your wife is a bully who's always gotten her way. She probably wanted to be a stay at home mom and you worked hard to make that happen but she wasn't happy even though it was most likely HER idea.

She's still trying to bully you and everyone around her even though you are the BETRAYED spouse who's done everything you can to accommodate her whims over the years.

No more grovelling. You're not doing anything wrong. You are trying to protect yourself and your children from her destructive behavior. She's got everyone around her brainwashed and worried about her stupid happiness.

Come out of HER fog. Be strong now. This lady is so used to running everyone over that she's got you worried. It's time to turn the tables on her. BE STRONG.

The way I explained things to WW was that I knew I was being lied to and was doing what I could to try to protect myself and the family from what was happening. I explained to her that I had asked her repeatedly since this started to just be honest with me and she was unwilling to honor that. Her argument is that I am escalating things and I have lost control and the only thing that is going to protect her from me is a legal document. I assured her that even though I wished she didn't date, once she leaves the house, my "control" over what she does doesn't really exist anymore. I brought up the line about my right to know what my spouse was doing and planning and who she was talking with and that was when she brought up the D discussion.

You know my WW very well. Yes, it was her idea to stay at home and I fully supported her. She actually told me that she felt bullied through my actions. She went on to talk about how she doesn't feel like she could trust me and her privacy has been invaded. Geez, I wonder what that feels like????

I am upset that this happened so close to her move out date. She is going to be leaving the house with a sour taste in her mouth. My hope is that once she can get settled in the new place, she will realize that she is on her own and will calm down some.

When she brings up privacy, let her know that you�re not violating her privacy. Tell her you�re violating her secrecy and there is a big difference between the two. Secrecy is what someone does when they don�t want their spouse to know what they�re doing. Privacy is shutting the door when using the bathroom.

One of those activities threatens your life and family. The other doesn�t.

Get another voice activated recorder in place soon while she's not expecting it. [don't get caught]

Maybe this time get a MP3 player/recorder wristwatch that may get overlooked.

Also...I'm betting part of her upset was making you tell her how long you've been using it and what all exactly you heard. I hope you didn't tell her and made her believe you've heard and documented it all (saved the files off the recorder in a safe place too). You see...if and when you move forward in discovery you want her thinking you've got recordings of a bunch of things such that she'll be too afraid to lie under oath in your deposition of her.

Besides (wink-wink-nudge-nudge)...she knew about the VAR as you guys used it and/or ones like it to monitor the baby sitters and kids over the years. It's not like she didn't know there were recorders in your house...she basically consented to it. If ever questioned by the cops about it...you don't have to say or explain anything....perhaps SHE put the recorders there to frame you.

mr w

The only reason she would have a bad taste in her mouth, though, is because you are trying to protect yourself. The goal here is not to appease a tyrant by doing whatever she wants. That is not Plan A, SS. You should continually tell her that she can "trust" you to snoop like a bloodhound as long as she continues to hide things from you.

Can you file on grounds of adultery in your state? Does adultery factor into divorce settlements?

I have a feeling the only way your WW will wake up is if her world gets very, very sour by her own hand.

Get your legal stuff in order. You do not want to have to shell out large amounts of cash to support her as she forges her (ridiculous) new path.

This lady is so used to bending people to her will that she will be shocked when she lands on her butt and has to support herself. Her adultery partner has his own family to support so there won't be much help from him. This is very good news for you.

Her family is obviously used to chugging her crazy kool aid. Keep the kids with you!! Get as much custody as you can so that you offer her the least amount of support as possible.

She's taken you for granted in terms of the financial support. Let her get out there and discover her happiness in some crappy apartment ALONE.

You seem to know my WW very well. How long have you known her?

WW will be making decent money at her new job but she is also going to be saddled with some serous bills and you are right. OM is in no position to help her out in that regard. If anything, he will be looking for help. WW just had our insurance split up today so she will be picking up the tab for her car and her renters insurance.

We talked about child visitation for the next couple of months. Looks like I will have the kids during the week and every other weekend. I am going to be the one needing child support. That is fine for me. That kind of sets precedent should we do end up going the legal route.

Well, she's been out of the work force for awhile and will find the new job a bit of a shock.

She's very fantasy driven so it all looks peachy now but the reality of getting up and dealing with the daily grind is going to be a bucket of cold water on her dream-land.

Good for you on keeping the kids. Try to get that nailed down so there's no going back! She is in for a rude awakening and thank heaven's for that!

shortsleeves,

that is a good precedence for your children's custody and support.......get it writing waywards can't be trusted, make sure you are financially free from her as well.
let her feel what her decision has left her with........she will soon resent her new life and guess who she will blame, OM.........sit back and watch it all fall apart.......
crappy apartment alone sounds just about right to learn a lesson......
wait until she wakes up one day and says to herself what have I done.........
that day is coming

This whole thing is fantasy driven. I guess I understand a person's need for a career to make them feel fulfilled or like they are contributing something to society. But the whole stay at home mom thing was her idea and let's get real for a second. She has had everything paid for during the last 5+ years and has been free to do pretty much whatever she has wanted during that time. Hmm, should I take the kids to the beach today or go shopping?

WW actually insisted that we both sign the visitation schedule. Not that it is a legal document but still...

sign the agreement even if it's not legal.......
when reality hits that fantasy world watch her fall and wonder what hit her

I hope you are right. WW is a very capable woman and has lived on her own before. It has just been a long while for her. Her apartment is actually pretty nice. It is not cheap though which I still haven't figured out how she is going to pay for along with everything else.

I signed it, I just felt kind of silly when I was doing it because it was just on some note paper. We both have copies of it as well.

It's good that she's setting her sights so high with the apartment, etc. This means she won't be able to just up and quit the job if/when it gets hard.

She is someone who gets an idea of what she wants, makes it happen and then finds it lacking. She wanted to be a mother and stay home. That didn't make her happy so now she's leaving the kids with Short to forge her new path to happy.

People like this never find what they're looking for until they realize the thread running through their unhappiness is THEM.

Maybe she'll get to that realization when lover boy shows up and needs her to support him and the job is tougher than she thought and she actually misses the kids she wanted to make and the husband she wanted to marry. Hopefully she will be one of those fantasy driven people who wakes up when none of these changes bring that illusive happiness she feels entitled to.

I'm in your boat SS,

WW wants a career of her own. Has a job that pays 8.50 an hour and lives in a 1BR apt. I can't understand why she just can't have a career in OUR house. I'm hoping her fantasy will end soon as well. Good luck to you.

I think time will tell on all of what you said. I feel like what WW is displaying is sort of systemic for her. She has a history of getting into things and then just bailing on them when they don't work out or are no longer a challenge. I agree the one common thread in all of WW's misery is her. WW has been looking into IC to try to sort out what her issues are. I hope she figures that out whether we get our M back on track or not. That is her journey and I realize I can't help her with any of that.

I spent the evening last night speaking with some neighbors that are also close friends of ours about our situation. WW aproached them on Sunday after her explosion from the discovery of the VAR. She told them that she wanted them to know about what I had done in case her body was found in a ditch. It continues to amaze me what can come out of WW's mouth. Fortunately the friends were able to be supportive of her without condoning her actions. They are seeing the same thing the rest of us are and agree that WW was being completely overdramatic. They understand the position WW has put me in and why I am doing the things I am. I am fortunate to have people close by for support.

I feel like I am in a bit of a holding pattern right now. I am just trying to give WW a wide berth right now and am biding my time until she moves out in another week and a half. I wasn't thinking this a month ago but part of me now is looking forward to WW moving out. Is that wrong?

You are looking for relief that is normal........
Taking care of you is good, a rest is good...........

Just a short update...

WW and I are now at least talking more than one or two words at a time. She spent the weekend working on her new apartment. She doesn't even have keys yet but she is over there refinishing the wood floors??? I have been trying to keep things light the last week or so. WW is very edgy now that her move out day is less than a week away. She has lost about 5% of her body weight in the last 3-4 weeks with all that is going on.

I spoke with my FIL on Saturday over the phone and was able to clear things up between the two of us. He reacted to the news about the VAR a week ago as a typical father might when his daughter calls him in hysterics. He understands my situation and the position WW has put me in. I am taking some relief in the knowledge that he sill supports my side of things.

WW has brought up things like giving me her key to the house once she moves out and the idea of legal papers. I have just kind of let those types of comments slide without turning them into a major discussion.

I had a good weekend spending time with the kids. I finally came to the realization that I don't need to stress myself out worrying that I need to take on a new role as Mr. Mom once WW leaves. I am the dad and will do the dad things. Sure, I will also be doing more of the cooking and cleaning than I had been but I don't need to worry about knitting winter hats for the kids or making sage butter for them.

She doesn't feel she has to give you back her key to the house????


Fine...if you can have a key to her apartment. Her choice...no argument necessary.


(If you get any opportunity to take her keys to her apartment and make yourself a copy that may be nice to have. There may come a day she's out of town where you can search the place if need be. Of course, you'd just be stopping by to water the plants. No biggie if you can't get a copy but having options is nice.)

Mr. W

Mr. W,

I guess I was looking at the whole key to the house issue a little differently. I realize WW is moving out but since we are still married, isn't the house we are presently living in still her home and therefore shouldn't she keep a key to it? I want her to feel connected to the family and to our home. I figured by her turning in her key she was severing yet another tie. I am still in plan A right now. Am I looking at this wrong?

WW starts her IC tomorrow. I am curious whether that will have any affect on our situation or on WW's general mood and outlook.

The IC will help her feel better about her affair and her abandonment of your family. The goal is not to behave better, but to lower the bar to accommodate any bad behavior. One way to do this is to learn to "compartmentalize" and drown your conscience with propoganda. It can work if supplemented with alcohol or drugs.

She's made the decision to begin a new home for herself. It would be cruel to you to allow her unfettered access to her 'old' home any time she wants a taste of her 'old' life.

Let her know that she can make arrangements with you if she needs to come by for any reason. That way you can control who's coming and going from your home.

Don't tell her upfront or she'll get a copy of the key made. Have her hand it over when she's all done moving her stuff and is making her last grand exit.

The IC will help her feel better about her affair and her abandonment of your family. The goal is not to behave better, but to lower the bar to accommodate any bad behavior. One way to do this is to learn to "compartmentalize" and drown your conscience with propoganda. It can work if supplemented with alcohol or drugs.

C'mon, Mel - don't hold back! Tell us how you REALLY feel!

SS, the average "counsellor" has one salient thought in mind when conducting sessions: The viability of his business depends on getting the current client happy enough with the service that she recommend it to others! Given that dynamic, how likely would it be that a counsellor would truthfully inform a client that she was acting like a self-indulgent, rutting sow? So, every and any impulse or cockeyed imagining such a client would raise at a session would instead be provided validation by the counsellor, assuaging the client ("I'm not a slut, the counsellor said I just had unfulfilled needs!"), and giving her the warm-and-fuzzies which produce the necessary recommendations to acquaintances.

Sure...as long as you get a key to her place too. Once she's gone you want her to depend on this new life to meet her needs exclusively. You'll eventually be moving to Plan B and getting this key now is the only way to insure she doens't make a copy of it before you get it. She's needs to hit rock bottom and missing home/longing for home and not being able to do anything about it (no key) will hopefully help her along to rock bottom faster.

As far as counseling. Soothsayers. I can hear the Turtle- babble now "oh you poor neglected wife, I commend you for your courage and stepping up in this situation. The affair was healthy. Everybody is right all the time. Wrongness is merely a state of mind that I can help you deny, defend and overcome. His upset towards you is mastertalk and thus, wrong and very controlling. I'd love to meet your soon to be ex-husband and teach him a thing or two as he is the enemy of your happiness. By the way, ever date a shrink?"

Hope she's not seeing a male. You MAY have a shot if she's seeing a female Christian counselor.

Mr. Wondering

Agree..

There's also the dynamic that waywards either lie about or have very selective hearing with regards to their counseling sessions. Many a betrayed spouse has been on the receiving end of judgements and castigations supposedly from counselors they've never even met. Unfortunately, the betrayed spouse fog doesn't immediately allow them to see through this enough to ask questions and try to nail down exactly what was said but I guarantee you...most counselors don't rip on the spouse that's not in the room and they've never met.

My best guess...the wayward said it and the shrink just nodded their head indicating they HEARD what was said...not that they agreed with it.

Mr. W

We should be counselors, Neverguessed!

We should be counselors, Neverguessed!

Do not kid yourself, dear friend. You ARE. I am almost there. (Gotta work to moderate my periodic "peckishness"!)

<snort>

Peckishness is my middle name!!

I think a little peckishness would go a long way toward changing counselors for the better.

Well, "peckishness" by a certain male poster here is predestined for

....................??

...madness? great things? the White House?

Well, "peckishness" by a certain male poster here is predestined for.....

...oblivion, sent into the great void, once again!

I hope you weren't referring to me...

So, WW is moving the last of her stuff into a van on Saturday. I am going back and forth whether I should be present or not and whether the kids should witness her leaving or not. I don't want to traumatize the children but I also think it would make things more uncomfortable for WW if she saw myself standing there with the 2 kids with confused looks on their faces while she loaded the van. The kids are no doubt to have all kinds of questions.

I was also thinking of writing her a note letting her know that I understand that she is a grown woman who is free to make her own decisions but I don't agree with what she is doing or how she is handling things. I was also going to add how I hoped that she finds what she is looking for on her journey and that I have hope that she will decide to take my hand and begin a new life with me should she ever get to that point. I will clean it up of course but you get the idea.

ML - I noticed this is a real trend here with waywards, an increase in alcohol and drug use. Have you also found many waywards fall into this more?

Pep - had a great compartimentalize article the other day. I believe the more the wayward compartmentalizes the harder they fall into waywardness. Compartmentalizing shuts humans off from all intimacy. It makes you numb. The harder they try to keep the compartments suppressed the angrier and more depressed they become because the compartments really want to merge with each other.

He was talking about himself, SS, and his almost mythical ability to be edited by the mods.

My WW does not seem to be turning to alcohol more and I have not seen any sign of drug use. She has family history of alcoholism so I will continue to be watchful.

WW is a master at compartmentalizing. She calls it her armor. She puts on layers of armor to protect herself from any feelings or emotions she doesn't want to deal with. I realized early on that nothing what I was doing or saying was making it to her. SY was being shielded by her mental armor.

A short (hopefully) update on things...

WW moved out last Saturday. I got the kids cleaned up and loaded into the car and got away from that whole scene for the day. I told WW that for everyone's safety I would not be present while she moved out plus I didn't want the kids seeing that. More questions for them to ask with crappy answers. Before I left, I told WW that this was not at all how I wanted things to happen, that I felt like I could do only so much from my side and she would have to take things from here, the ball was in her court, and that I hoped that she finds what she is looking for. I spent the day hanging out with some great friends. A very loving family with kids about he same age as mine. We had a blast and they were so supportive (and distracting). They sent me home with enough food for the week which was a huge help.

We met WW for a Sunday brunch and the kids got their photos taken with the big guy in the red suit. The meal went fine and we didn't talk about anything significant. We said our ggoodbye's and I got to explain again that mommy wasn't coming home and she wouldn't be sleeping at the house that night.

The week has gone better than I was expecting as far as my being able to juggle everything with the kids schedules. I scrape them out of bed at 5:45 AM which is an early wake up for both of them. They are good sports about it for the most part. I think keeping busy with kid stuff has been a good distraction for me this week.

I was invited over to the neighbors for supper on Tuesday( WW picked up the kids from school that night). We spent the evening diagnosing what was wrong with WW. I am hearing more and more from people that they think that WW has some kind of serious mental illness. None of us have any expertise in this field mind you (well with one exception) so I realize this isn't exactly a professional evaluation.

WW forwarded me an email notice for an evening seminar coming up. The topic is "Forgiveness and Letting Go of the Past". I just about blew a gasket when I read that. I am in no position to do either of those right now. I controlled myself and didn't even respond.

Any conversations between WW and me seem real cold. I am frustrated with this whole situation and I would guess she is trying to retract as much as possible from her old life.

WW's birthday is tomorrow. I went back and forth all week trying to figure out whether I do anything for her or not. I finally decided to just have some flowers sent to her with a short note (no "I love you" or anything).

WW and I each returned keys to one another (house and car keys). She wrote a short email to me telling me that she would not be dropping by unannounced and asked me to do the same. I wrote her back saying that I had no intention of visiting her apt. I told her that this all feels weird to me and that I just didn't understand why she was doing what she was doing. I told her that I hoped that now that she was in her own space she would be able to decompress to the point to where we could talk about our new path.

WW's IC gave her an order for mandatory meditation! That should solve all of her problems???

I read through pepperband's thread on run of the mill WWs and got really depressed about my situation. FWIW, I think my WW is more of a type 2 than 1 but has traits of both. This whole thing sucks.

So sorry for you and your kids, SS.

I really hope no four legged pets were nearby when you read "WW topic is "Forgiveness and Letting Go of the Past"

If she seeks forgiveness she needs to first REPENT and make amends. Forgiveness is not some entitlement program for selfish waywards.

Thanks. I have been hearing that a lot lately...

I almost felt felt like WW sent me that to get me spun up. I think she is just plain clueless.

No animals were harmed during the receipt of that email. When the dog swiped DD3's breakfast TWICE this week... That dog was not helping things.

SS, in your situation, I would strongly consider going into Plan B sooner rather than later. I can see how she is wearing you down one drip at a time. People who go into Plan B start feeling SUPER after a few weeks of being removed from the circle of abuse.

I can see she is counting on you to be there as a backup and be her "friend." [as evidenced by her stupid fake "forgiveness" email, which only really means 'please ignore my cruel abandonment of my husband and children']

How long have you been in Plan A now? What are your visitation plans? Have you filed for divorce/separation yet?

I agree completely. WW has done absolutely nothing to earn any form of forgiveness from me. She doesn't get it.

I was hoping that WW moving out would relieve me of some of the anxiety I have been experiencing with all of this and it may still (WW has not been gone a week). I have been in Plan A since September. I have not filed any legal paperwork. I have been dragging my feet on all of that. I wanted to see how things were once WW moved out and started her new job. Oh, I am not sure if I mentioned, WW starts work on Monday. One floor down from where I work. great. That should make for an interesting Plan B when I get there. I admit, I have been thinking more and more about the timing of the Plan B. I think I am doing better than I sound. I am pretty tired right now from running around with all of the kid stuff this week and have been going on about 4 hours of rest/night. I seem to get a little touchy when I don't sleep well.

You need to get a sense of her schedule so you know when she's going to and from work. Make note of how she enters and leaves the building. You'll need that info when you get to Plan B so you will be able to avoid bumping into her.

You work at a hospital?

I have her work hour schedule and may need to change mine by about 15 minutes to avoid running into her every day. It will still be difficult to completely avoid her though. Not impossible.

Nope. I work in a building with about 700 other engineers.

Emphasis mine. Make it happen, SS.

Here is an update on things:

Christmas came and went. ILs stayed at the house which was great! MIL flooded the downstairs bathroom/basement while I was at work which was not so great. Cut off the tip of my ring finger making supper and had to go to the emergency room the day after Christmas which was also not so great. WW stayed over at the house on Christmas eve and slept in the bed with me (no SF). I got an email from OMW on Christmas morning letting me know that WW and OM have been talking all along and that she had a hunch that OM might be coming up this way for a visit in the next week or so. Merry F'ing Christmas. That just about ruined my day. I tried to not let it set me off but it was not easy. It was so confusing. WW was there at the house, with the family, sleeping in our bed and at the same time still going on with OM. I told her that I felt like she was still on the fence. Should I not have invited her to Christmas? I think I did the right thing.

The kid swapping has been going ok so far. Not too many hiccups. I am slowly getting a routine down and am able to get everyone rolling and on the road in the morning in time for school.

Our 6th anniversary is tomorrow. A week ago I asked WW if she was interested in going out for dinner. I would take care of a baby sitter and other logistics. She said she had to think about it. The next day we met and she mentioned to me that she hadn't realized it was going to be our anniversary and that she didn't think it would be a good idea to go out. It would seem too much like a date. I am going to be seeing WW tomorrow about something else and was thinking of giving her a card and a small gift. Thoughts? Thanks.

A card and a Plan B letter might make a nice gift.

You're dragging your feet here (and you've been avoiding this place as you conflict avoid your way through this mess). I know it's an emotional matter which isn't your area of strength but playing family over the holidays and sharing a bed with her????? YOU MATTER TOO!


How much custody is/was she asking for? How much is she utilizing?? Are you keeping good documentation...everyday and particularly every night (overnights with the kids count most as you can spend nearly every waking moment with your kids but if they sleep at your spouses house...then she is the primary custodial parent).

If she's HANDING you 90% custody right now...your best bet may be going to Plan B and just sitting on it for awhile (documenting it and hopefully making it the permanent "agreement" later on after actually being the primary custodial parent for 3 - 12 months). If she's not giving you primary custody...you should be considering Plan B plus a divorce filing to protect your children. The fact she gave you exclusive use of the residence puts you somewhat in the driver's seat.

You should be discussing this with your attorney too and strategizing.

Good luck,

Mr. Wondering

I am still working my plan A right now. My understanding was that part of plan A was to make the home a warm and welcome place to be.

I have been keeping a log of the dates that WW has visitation with the kids. So far, we have agreed to her seeing them on Tuesday nights and every other weekend. They will stay over at her place Friday and Saturday night every other weekend and she will take them out for supper on Tuesday nights. I expect this to continue at least through the end of the school year.

I would make sure everyone knows all about this. Hopefully you are not keeping this intel secret. Did you confront your WW with this information?

You did the right thing in inviting her to Christmas but you need to be diligent and continue applying pressure on the affair. Let her parents know the affair has never ended.

I have let everyone know that the A has not ended. My FIL was especially upset because WW had told him that once she moved out she was going to take a break from everything and use the time to work things out in her head (or some crap like that).

Yeah, she has lost all respect for you. I don't care how warm and comfortable you make your home. Keep us updated.

Which will (and probably sooner rather than later) pale by comparison to the respect she loses for herself one day.

Do they all know what the OMW just told you? Did you tell them and did you tell your W you know this and have told everyone? This is the kind of intel that needs to be EXPOSED. And exposure is meaningless unless the WW knows it has been done. Will the FIL ever welcome the OM into his family?

SS, it is real important that you keep the heat up on the affair and don't drop the ball here.

Yes, I have spread the word on this news (parents, sister, in-laws, friends, co-workers).

My in-laws have made it abundantly clear that WW is never to bring OM to their door. They are furious. I do worry that their relationship with their daughter may be permanently damaged no matter which way this all ends up going.

SS, her relationship with her parents will be hers to fix, if she becomes a former and repentant wayward. Until then, she's not a great daughter anyways. Adultery changes the person to their core.

You are right and I do realize that. WW and her mother have not had a great relationship since before I even met WW. I have been a sort of buffer between them for a long time. An IM? I have been doing less and less intervening or smoothing of feathers because they now talk so infrequently. My FIL is feeling like he is walking a very fine line. On the one hand he is furious and deeply upset at what WW is doing and on the other hand he feels like if he says the wrong thing, he is going to lose his only child. I can tell he is torn. I have told him that no matter what happens he will always have me as a son. He is at least talking with WW regularly and she does listen to him. Whether she hears what he is saying is another story.

The IC that WW is seeing gives her plenty of homework. This past week she was told to read a specific book on helping people in troubled marriages. It was not MB material, but isn't this a positive sign? I have not probed WW to ask her about what she learned. I am trying to play it cool right now and not seem to needy for information.

WW and I still talk multiple times each day. We have plenty to talk about concerning work now that she has started working again. WW complemented me on how I was dressed yesterday. I realize it was a minor comment but it was still nice to hear.

My in-laws are out visiting for the week to help out with the kids. They are staying here at the house. I had to work today but WW came over to the house to see her parents before they left. We had a few inches of snow and WW snow blowed the driveway. She also picked up supper and got the kids ready for bed. Not sure if she was trying to prove something in front of her parents or if she was jut trying to be nice. Either way, I thanked her just the same.

I am feeling like WW is right now content to let things just continue going the way they are indefinitely. I don't think she has any real intention in seeking a divorce on her own. If I initiated D paperwork, my guess is she would sign to "set me free" or something.

I received an email from OMW who is now OMXW confirming that OM was up this way visiting some time in the last few weeks. This A is not showing any signs of burning out. From what I understand, Dr. Harley recommends a BH stay in plan A as long as possible and then move into a plan B. I still have the energy to plan A but I was wondering if a change to plan B would be recommended sooner rather than later. I also understand that a plan A alone doesn't have a high success rate. It is more often a prelude to a plan B.

I have a ton of supporters around me (family and friends). They have been a tremendous help. I feel like people are nudging me toward filing for D and getting this all over with. I am not there right now so it is hard some days keeping up the fight and staying vigilant. Even though I have many loving and supportive people around me, I do feel alone at times.

SS, I would give Plan A about a 50% success rate, so my money is on you. On the other hand, the odds that an affair will ever make it to marriage is about 5%. I would continue to hold out as long as you can stand it.

One thing I would consider is perhaps filing for divorce or separation just to protect yourself LEGALLY. She is very likely to sign papers giving you primary custody while she is in heat over the OM. If you wait to do that, she might start having second thoughts.

I don't get the impression that WW ever intends to get married again should we end up getting a divorce. I feel like she is looking at the situation like there is no real difference to her no matter what happens (divorce or no divorce). Right now she is going to carry on with what she is doing either way indefinitely. I also don't think she would sign custody papers if I went after primary custody. She is looking at this as a simple 50/50 split, even though she only has the kids 4 overnights/month right now. I need to think about that part of it some more. Maybe I am wrong, I am thinking that if I push the subject and go after primary custody that would disrupt the apple cart and she would no longer be cooperative. Then again, maybe that is exactly what I should be doing. Like I said, I need to think about that some more. I was also feeling like I was setting precident by having the kids the vast majority of the time and riding that for a few months (it has only been about 6 weeks).

I am thinking that the OM just made some major LB deposits with WW. His stepping up and actually going through with the divorce must be seen as a huge gesture to WW that he is serious about their disgusting affair. That is tough to compete with. I keep reminding myself that I have to stay on plan and can only play my part. I am continuing to plan A.

How are you enforcing the "stick" part of Plan A? Remember, Plan A is BOTH the carrot AND the stick.

Have you spoken to an attorney to find out how long you would need to have the children with you the majority of the time for it to be most beneficial? Is there any advantage in your state if you were to file for a D first? You could tell your attorney that you want to drag it out. Just a thought.

Could it be possible that your WW sees remaining married to you as more beneficial because of finances/etc?

I have reminded WW that if we do end up divorcing that we will not continue to be friends. I have continued to keep people updated about the ongoing A. I have made it abundantly clear to WW that at no time will our kids be in the presence of OM. I have told WW as recently as last week how much this is devastating to me and our family. I have encouraged the kids to direct some of their questions to WW that feel like I am having to answer daily.

I have thought about the financial benefit angle to WW. Her new job pays slightly less than my position. I don't know if there is much of a financial benefit for staying married. WW is blowing through money right now. She is also paying for all of her credit cards. Another reason that I thought the legal side of things could wait is that her war chest is being depleted by the day.

I will follow up with my attorney about strategies.

As if she can answer them. Their mother is abandoning them and leaving them with you 26 out of 30 days a month...her "answers" for that will be nothing but wayward bullcrud. I wouldn't encourage them to ask your WW anything because you are the only sane parent that can attempt to answer their questions properly.


I mentioned on the last page delaying any divorce if she's giving you 90% custody....but I didn't do that anticipating you remaining in Plan A. Most guys that come here can't Plan B because their wayward wives won't move out...yours has...Plan B should be relatively easy to implement and WHEN you do it...your Plan B letter should definitely make a passing reference to the current custody arrangement in order to further document it for the court. I hope you are keeping really good notes and communicating by email/text about when she's spending anytime with the kids. You are doing great on the custody battle so far.

Many WW's remarry because their divorce decrees mandate they can't expose the kids to unrelated overnight guests. If they marry OM...he's suddenly related.

Mr. Wondering

I figured that if WW was getting questions from the kids then reality might sink in some. I agree, her responses would be total garbage.

I have a log that I am keeping of days that WW has bailed out of watching the kids. Some of them have been legit (she had the stomach flu). Others, not so much (a night out to see a band w/OM).

Good point on the overnight guest maneuver. I hadn't thought of that angle.

Have you ever read Eph525's old threads????


He did Plan A, then Plan B and eventually divorced AND got full custody of his two young children.

Here's the start: Eph525 Plan A


Then you can link to his major Plan B thread from his signature line.


His divorce was final March 2008....and then in March 2009 his wife took him to court again trying to get 50-50 custody of his kids. Eph525 Custody Wars

I don't know if that last thread ever came to a conclusion because I think her last filing in March of 2009 never actually went to court. It was a filing that just hung out there indefinitely as if she was somehow comforted by the fact she was forever fighting for more custody without actually taking the battle to court where she'd lose. She even suggested at one time that she be allowed more custody over the daughter but not the son..because she was closer to her daughter. Whacko.

Point is...your situation could recover or it may not. If it doesn't you are going to have to become a legal expert over your own situation to protect those children for her to the greatest extent possible. Her entitlement WILL rear it's head in presumptive demands for 50% or more custody especially if it potentially means more money (for her) in support. Keep journaling and hand written dated entries make for great testimony in court (contemporaneous notes are allowed to be read into the court record and carry much more weight than your waywards wives' obviously distorted past recollection).


BTW...eph525 is now happily remarried a complete MB success story.

Mr. Wondering

another old poster with a different outcome (reconciliation even after separation) is mywifeilove. Don't have a link handy but you can search for him using the search function.

He went into Plan B and then BACK into Plan A while separated...so could be an interesting read for you.


Mr. W

Thanks, I have read through mywifeilove's thread. That helped. If I remember right, he went back and forth between plan A & B a few times before things wrapped up for him. I will check out Eph525's thread as soon as I look up what contemporaneous means.

I invited WW over for supper tonight after she dropped the kids off at the house and she accepted which was a surprise. I was busy making supper when she got here so it wasn't until we were into the meal that I noticed that she is no longer even wearing her wedding band. That caught me off guard and she asked me what was up. This turned into about an hour long chat about us and what lies ahead and all that.

I asked her if she knew what she wanted in life when it comes to relationships. She said that she doesn't think that she can ever be in a long term relationship with anyone. The concept doesn't work for her. She feels too controlled. She was always the happiest when she was dating and living alone. She says this also goes for the OM and has told him repeatedly and recently that she does not want a long term relationship with him. He had asked her if he could move in with her and she told him flat out no. WW said that OM and I are both after the same thing and it isn't something she can give to anyone.

I keep telling myself this is all fog babble and if I keep up the fight there is still a chance that she will gain some clarity at some point and perhaps see the mistakes she has made and want to try to fix them. I look at our kids and tell myself that I owe it to them not to just throw in the towel during difficult times like these.

Is what WW is saying about her inability to function in a long term committed relationship something common for someone in the fog?

I confirmed that OM saw her again last week. I am unsure what I should be doing to try to kill this A. WW is living on her own. At this point, beyond protecting the kids and continuing to plan A is there anything else I should be doing? I have been keeping my exposure targets up to date with what is going on with the A. Is it just a waiting game at this point? Waiting for the A to die on its own?

I was thinking over the weekend about what I need to ask my L about LSA papers. The more I thought about it, the more I questioned what the point was. In the end, I can't really expect anything other than 50/50 visitation. That is what WW wants and that is what gets awarded 90% of the time here according to my L. The other 10% is when there is abuse or drugs involved which is not our case. Where my head is right now is basically, what is the point? I don't know.

I am going to ask a quick question that I think I know the answer to but just want to check to see if I am way off. WW offered to watch the kids on Sunday so I could watch the big game with my friends. This is something I have done for the past 17 years. Thing is she intends to stay here at the house with the kids. I am not comfortable with the idea of WW being here "unattended" especially considering if the tables were turned, there is no way she would let me in her place by myself right now. I do want to make the house inviting to her but right now this seems like a boundary I need to keep in place. I was thinking of letting her know that she was welcome to have the kids at her place in trade for another night but I wanted to keep things even as far as dwelling boundary rules go. Thanks.

I think you should go for it! The novelty of her apartment is probably wearing off so this will be a good time to get her back and remind her of how nice it is at home. Make it as pleasant as possible so that will contrast to her lonely life in her apartment.

I know the feeling. I get uncomfortable with my wife in my house without me. She left so much behind that I fear she would snoop to see what she could take back to her apartment.

I also agree with Mel's points too. Has your wife done anything that would make you not trust her in the home while you're gone?

See, this is why I asked. I felt like this would be just playing into her cake eating.

Same here. In her mad dash to get out of the house she left a ton of her stuff. I do feel like she would spend the evening either filling up her car with more stuff or snooping to see what she could find.

There really isn't any reason I shouldn't trust her in the house alone. I just thought the dwelling access should be equal which it isn't. I admit, if I was in her place for an evening alone, I would be tearing it apart looking for who knows what.

I wouldn't do it, you'll probably find stuff missing or your computer compromised.

I do think she would just go shopping at the house and there would be a number of things missing but that part of it doesn't really bother me as much as the idea that she could come and go to the house as she pleases but her apartment was completely off limits. I told WW that it felt weird when I was explaining things to her (she is still my wife and she was living at the house in Dec.) but at the same time I thought it was important to have some boundaries of my own and to keep our fences at the same height so to speak. She was caught off guard by this idea which to me was another example of how WW is totally focused on her life and isn't at all concerned how any of this is affecting anyone else.

I agree with RMX..My W is more than welcome to come over any time, but she cannot be there without me. She isn't the same woman that I married and cannot be trusted. I went to the store once while she was there and had to ask my son to let me know if mom walked around the house. Luckily she just sat on the couch. I never go to my wife's apartment except to pick the kids up for school during her weeks.

I was going to ask you how you and your WW were handling things. I feel like I am constantly inviting my WW over to the house. Sometimes she accepts, sometimes not. I am trying to make the house a warm and welcome place for her. At the same time, right now I can't let her just come and go. I live in a part of the country where I don't have to lock my car or house. I have lived at the house for 10 years and have just recently started locking the house. Pretty sad, I feel like I have to lock the house to keep my WW out.

Just so you know, I have been following your thread and have often felt like there was no need for me to post to my thread. You were speaking my mind and I would just be repeating what you wrote.

Happy birthday to your boys!

Thanks SS,

Right now things are ok. We went from her being extremely angry to her slowly taking the carrot, so to speak. I try my best not to LB. She doesn't always accept my invitations either, but they keep coming. In the end, she will realize that no one will ever care for her and love her more than me.

This is a way to end the fantasy for the WW. I recommend you thank her for the offer, but that you�re responsible for finding care for the kids when they�re with you and she�ll have to do the same when they�re with her. Make it clear that that�s just how it�s going to have to be if you guys get divorced (which is true). I�d also find some way of saying that you�re sure that if you�re ever dating someone someday that she�d object to having the ex show up at the house regularly to watch the kids. I�d also say that you�re sorry, but that you simply don�t trust her and would be happy to see her want to earn your trust back someday, but that simply isn�t the case right now.

I sacrificed things for a time when I got divorced, which included outings to watch the Super Bowl. So either take the kids with you to your friends, if they�re having kids over, or watch the game with friends at your place and do so in a kid friendly manner. I found that the kids enjoyed helping setup for a party.

I agree with this.

The fantasy will take a blow when you decide to give up something you treasure like the SB party before you allow her to watch the kids on your day. It would be a reward for someone who deserves none.

I think I will end up heading to the pre-game party with the kids and then just duck out of there early. For me, it is less about seeing the game and more about visiting with pals.

I have been planting seeds about what life will be like if she continues this glide slope. Her idea of cooperative parenting doesn't work for me. I feel like WW and OM have done all of this "long term planning" for how the rest of their lives will be but in reality they haven't actually gotten past next Thursday on the calendar.

I have a hard time coming up with something I would rather do besides spending the day with the kids on my day. The SB party is a blast but not really on the same level. I get what you are saying about not wanting to reward her.

Start a new SB tradition with the kids and have them help you prepare the goodies.

Great plan. I like it.

I try to include the kids whenever I am cooking. I don't know about you but I have become a cooking mad-man since WW moved out. I can't seem to stop cooking. Must be some kind of coping mechanism. The kids don't really eat much of anything I prepare of course but I am told that is pretty normal for their ages.

Yes, lots of cooking, cleaning and laundry! I clean a 4br house...she cleans a 1br. It's been pretty hard at times, but I manage. My younger son likes to help me cook and my older one helps me clean up. My DD is lazy! Lol!

I haven't been posting for a while because I really didn't feel like I had anything substantial to post. I have been reading the forum every day though. It was more of the same. Plan A with no real response from WW (no expectations on my part).

Well, WW gave me D paperwork on Saturday. I am seeing my L tomorrow. Very dissapointing. I told her the worst part for me was that she never gave us a chance. She never tried.