I have been married for 5 years.

My husband cheated on me 5 years ago. He had been married prior and I met him 1 year out from his divorce. He had 1 child with his ex wife, a little girl

We dated for a couple of years, then we married. His ex wife has been very difficult to handle. She is a very religious lady and feels they should never have divorced. He divorced her.

She has borderline personality disorder.

I don't think he had actually resolved with her their relationship, because 3 years ago he went back to her, leaving me for 3 months, and before he came back to me, he got her pregnant.

So there is now a little boy just over 2 years old, in addition to the older child.

What happened when he came back, was he said he was sorry to me, then he wanted to rug sweep. He felt it was best to move on as soon as possible. I was not able to do that. My trust was destroyed, he hid the new child from till after it was born.

We have expended massive amounts of time arguing. He was also having conflict with the ex was clinging and using the children to jerk him around. Finally he sorted that in terms of visitation and custody recently. He is very angry from all of the problems there. Though from what I can see, his ex has given up on him. When I see her, she is calm. That is only in the last few weeks.

In terms of him and I, since he feels he can't take back what he did, he refuses to discuss it, he insists on full privilages to do as he wants in terms of friendships with women. He has a number of very casual ones, and one that appears to be casual now, but over a period of about 18 months has had me so upset that it has infected my capacity to recover.

I don't ask him very much ever about the affair. He explained to me why he feels he did it. Basically I think he is being direct with me on that.


What we have had though, in the last 3 years is a lot of drama and conflict over the affair (until the last year) and my upset over this friend of his.

I am going to be honest about my own part, here. I am not proud of myself for some parts of it, but here it is:

I am stuck. I feel stuck because of this woman friend of his. She is someone he works with. When I first met her, she set me off because I felt she was overly friendly to him. I told him immediately how I felt and asked that he make her keep her distance. He said he would, but he ended up working with her a lot, and as they did they became better friends.

This woman is married, and by her claim, she is very religious and loves her husband deeply.. they are planning to have children.

However, she has also engaged in a number of flirtations at the office, several of the men falling for her, then she tells them she didn't mean it that way... you get the picture. Then she moves on to someone else.

In my opinion, my husband became overly attached to her.

He doesn't actually HAVE to work with her as a partner at work. They have a variety of projects going and he likes working with her ( in a group of 6 other people) because she is good at the job, easy to work with, and fun.

Well that is nice. But I feel bothered by her.

So after I learned about the other child, I felt very shocked and anxious. I had been asking him to work in the other groups instead of with this woman, and all of it really was becoming too much for me to handle. I was upset a lot and he was mad at me a lot for persisting in the request and for being so upset.

Then one day, he mistakenly thought I had said something rude to the woman. I work in the same company but am in a different department. Often I see my husband during the day. At that point I HAD met his co-worker and honestly, I was cool to her. I didn't like her at all.

But, I was not rude to her. Well he jumped all over me and told me that I was not to attack that woman and he said he would file for divorce if I did it again. To say the least, I was offended. I told him I didn't know what he was talking about and couldn't he at least tell me what happened before making threats like that?

Due to SUCH a strong reaction at me, I became even more sensitive to this woman.

A few weeks later, one of the flirtations the woman co-worker had been in.. the man involved became jealous of my husband for being friends with the woman and he started a conflict. My husband said he denied it and said if that man wanted to be jealous, he should be jealous of the woman's husband, NOT my husband, because he had nothing to do with her on that level.

As you might guess, this ramped up my sensitivity even more. My husband flat out refused to work in another group. He said he was NOT going to feed into my paranoia by punishing his co-worker because his co-worker was innocent and everyone was JUST working and no one did anything wrong.

Well when the fight happened, I did say to the woman that if she was going to be causing problems for my husband probably she would end up elsewhere and certainly I was not happy with her myself. She smiled at me, and she said, "Did HE say that?"

Then she said that she felt he and her were close enough as friends that my husband would not feel that way.

I told him about it and he was irritated with me. He said all of this was in my head and I was making my own self feel terrible and I have no one to blame but myself for my unhappiness.

I don't know.

So this goes on and on. I became so uncomfortable that eventually he told me that he would not work in the same group. In fact, he had gained a leadership position and he could pick and chose. He said in return he would appreciate it if I calmed down and at try to make friends with his co worker so I would see how nice she really is and how I have nothing to fear.

Eventually I was offered a position in his department. I wanted to accept it, but his coworker was getting mad and went into talk to management to tell them that she felt I would cause problems. And my husband backed her up. He believed I was so volitile over his coworker that I would if fact cause drama.

I was humiliated. So I turned down the position. Management brushed off the conerns but I knew I would feel very uncomfortable there. My husband's coworker made clear to me that she felt she won something.

I myself was very upset about it on top off everything else. I complained about it a lot to my husband and I REALLY wanted him to not have anything to do with the lady.

Ok, this is where it gets bad. And I am sorry, I know I am writing a book here, but I want people to get the full story.

One day a few months after that, my husband's cell phone rang and I answered it. Normally I don't but that day he had left it when he was on an errand. It was his co-worker. She told me she needed some information for a business trip they were taking. And as it turned out it was him and her only going.

I kind of lost it. I felt like he had let me down. When he came home he insisted that it was a business trip only. But I had enough. Maybe I am paranoid. Maybe I am messed up in my head. But I found his co-worker's husbands place of business number and I called him and told him what I knew about the office flirtations and the man who started the argument with my husband over her and I said I felt she was trying to be too close to my husband.

OMG. It hit the fan. My husband was furious. He accused me of trying to ruin her marriage and said I humiliated him in front of everyone. He walked out on me telling me that "all of us have had enough of you and we would like it if you didn't contact any of us for a long time".

He asked me to apologize to his co-worker and tell her husband I was mistaken. He told me if I didn't, he would be filing for divorce. Well I don't want a divorce. So after a while, I did write an apology and I did explain my reasoning to her husband and apologized for any offenses. She told me off and threw in back in my face, telling me that my husband wants to get rid of me but he can't figure out how.

So he came home, I confronted him on what she said, and he said YES, at that time when he was so upset, he had said he wanted to leave me and hoped I would leave him alone. I was very upset and I said ok, I wouldn't stop him.

Then he calmed down and said that just get OVER whatever was bothering me and let's move on. he said forget about the baby, get over the affair, because dragging this with me is destroying our marriage. He said I was just paranoid and mentally ill now and to see a psychiatrist and get help.

At that point I began to have panic attacks. Every time I thought he was around her, I had a huge panic attack. So I went and got anti anxiety meds. Which helped some. But as time went on, the attacks grew in intensity when he was around his co worker and I could see it.

This brings us up to a few months ago. His co worker was assigned to a job temporarily in a different city. When she was gone, I was so relieved. I felt so much happier and the panic attacks subsided. Our marriage improved by leaps and bounds. I knew the co-worker was only gone temporarily, so I began to work very hard to heal so that when she came back, I would be able to be calm and handle things.

She came back.

I said to my husband, would you please avoid being around her for a while longer so I can continue to get better? His reply was no. In fact he had been thinking of a way to ramp up his career and in order to do that, he needed the best people with him. And she is one of the best, so he would be having her permanantly on his team. He said he knew how I felt, and that he knew I believed what I was asking was the right way to handle things, but he had plans. He said he was not going to let me get in the way and he just couldn't give up the opportunity. He said just accept it, you won't change it and if you accept it, we will have a great marriage and be happy.

I wasn't happy. I had been doing so well. I told him I didn't agree his idea was a good one and could he wait a few weeks. He said no. And the next day, he pulled her into his group and they all went to town doing their thing and they have had awesome success. They have.

But me.. the panick attacks came back. Every day. We go to work and I watch him go into his office and I see her there immediately engaging him in the latest project. She knew I hated it and was smug to me. Every day I leave work with a massive panick attack. Weeks of them. Until one day I lose it on him. I am so hurt and angry and lashing out. I realize this won't sound nice, but I was cursing at him and yelling at him during the panic attack. My whole body shaking, my heart pounding.

Over and over, I honestly reached such a point of rage and panic and despair, when she "accidentally" walked in on us in his office, I turned on her and I said you are a #%*@*&$#(@90 b**ch and if you don't back off from my husband I am going to tear you to pieces.

Well they were both stunned and she ran out freaking out and drama all over the place. My husband said YOU ARE MENTALLY ILL. He said I wasn't even acting like I was human. He said he was tired of me attacking his innocent coworker and humiliating him. He was DONE and he walked out and he left me.

So I went home. And I went quiet. And I stayed away from him. For 3 weeks. I only saw him in passing at the office. He never contacted me. I tried to talk to him yesterday and he refused to speak to me or look at me. Today I tried again.

He said he just wants me to leave him alone. He said I am selfish and try to get what I want at the expense of others. ( that I was pushing so hard and getting so upset over the coworker woman.)

I said I understand that you are upset, but please don't answer from the state of upset.

So he told me "I don't want to deal with you because you are agressive, dangerous and causing intentional damage to people who are not involved."

"people" being his coworker.

We did talk a bit. He calmed down some. I mistakenly called him "honey" and he said he is not my honey. He said he is a very tired and angry man. He said he had to go. He indicated we could talk at a later date, but he was pretty fed up.

And that is where we are. I don't know what to say or do right now. Except I know I won't be trying to talk to him for a week or so. It's just what feels best. To give more time to calm down.

I honestly don't know what to do about the panic attacks and upsets. I appear to be obsessed with this woman. He has told me in the past that he believes I am victimizing her, unfairly placing my pain and anger for his actions on her. I don't actually feel I am doing that, totally.

The panic attacks DID stop the day he left. I can feel they might still be there but they have not blown up. He has moved in with his mother and sister.

When I am in my sane mind, I think probably his co-worker is mostly a flirtatious troublemaker. But I don't know.


What do I do now? He made sure I knew nothing would be helping with me being so angry and hostile at him. And he really doesn't want to talk if I am going to be.

I hope a few people are willing to read all I wrote, because I could really use some sensible advice.

You will get a lot more assistance if you cut your post down to the bare essentials and not more than a few paragraphs.

Trust your instincts. Your husband is having an affair.
Click on Notify at the bottom of your post and ask the mods to move your thread to Surviving An Affair. You will get more help there.

To summerize:

Your husband cheated on you shortly after you were married. He had an affair with his first wife. A child was conceived. You may or may not have all the details. You still see the ex wife.

He insists on having female friends. He has one in particular that upsets you. He works with her. You've asked him to keep his distance from her, but he doesn't. She is very flirtatious.

He defends her when he thinks you are rude to her, and threatons divorce.

She has told you that she is close friends with your husband. He would like you to be friends with her, too.

She has prevented you from working in the same department as your husband. He backs her up on this.

You find out that they are going on a business trip together, alone. You lose it and tell her off. He has an angry outburst over this. He threatens divorce again unless you apologize to her and her husband.

He still refuses to stop working with her.

hi Atlanta, that is way too long to read. Can you cut that back to about 3 paragraphs? Most people do not have the time to read an overly long post just to get it.

I did read the first section and see that your husband had an affair and had a baby with his OW, his XW. He has never cut off contact with her, never done anything to recover your marriage and carries on workplace flirtations. In other words, more affairs are inevitable because your marriage never recovered from the last affair.

If I were you, I would probably accept that this is hopeless and move on. I predict your future will be one of more affairs and he will continually go back to his XW when the spirit moves him. If you divorced him, he could re-marry his XW.

You are in a marriage with a serial cheater and an abuser. You can't change him either. I would get out before this becomes more complicated by having a child.

wow. well I am not sure it is an affair. he is pretty narcisstic and extremely defensive of how he looks to other people. he actually told me that he thinks my reaction is stupid. he said he doesn't care how SHE feels, what is important to him is that I made him look bad and that I was acting in ridiculous ways trying to get my needs met.

He was in a real rage over how bad I made him look.

I wanted to check if I am the problem because I am getting so upset at him and if the key to turning it around was really simply me being calm.

It certainly looks like a classic full blown out-in-the-open office affair and you are going to destroy your health if you continue to try to bury your completely normal feelings this and about the last one.

Mel is one of our best vets and she does not usually advise pulling the plug so listen to her and start taking steps to protect yourself.

"Gaslighting is a form of mental abuse in which false information is presented with the intent of making a victim doubt his or her own memory, perception and sanity.[1] Instances may range simply from the denial by an abuser that previous abusive incidents ever occurred, up to the staging of bizarre events by the abuser with the intention of disorienting the victim." here

Sound familiar?

You are not the problem, my friend. It is your husband. Your husband has demonstrated in many ways he does not care about your feelings. He has not even begun to make amends for his affair with his XW and has changed none of the reckless tactics that led to the affair. He is very likely having another affair now. What would stop him? He has demonstrated that hurting you does not stop him.

Unless and until your husband makes radical and drastic changes in his lifestyle, you are headed right for the next affair train. That's if he isn't already in affair #2 and I assure you that he is.

I will tell you how to approach this. If your husband will make radical changes in his lifestyle, you have a chance. If not, I promise that you are headed for more affairs. [if he is not already having one now]

Set him down and explain to him that you want to have a romantic, loving, SAFE marriage and that you won�t stay in a loveless marriage where you are subjected to more affairs. Tell him you are willing to give him an opportunity to earn your forgiveness for his last affair. In order for the marriage to recover, certain things have to happen. This is what it will take to keep you interested:

1. end all contact with the XW-OW for life [all contact should be facilitated through a designated intermediary]

2. no more nights apart or going out without each other - create a healthy, integrated lifestyle

3. complete transparency - cell phone passwords, etc

4. no more opposite sex friendships

5. complete honesty about his affair<s> � passing a polygraph

6. quit his job and find another one - end all contact with his current OW and find a job where he doesn't work with women

7. commit to the Marriage Builders program for recovery as outlined in the book Surviving an Affair.

Tell him "this is what it will take to keep me in this marriage."

Whether your marriage ends up with success or failure will depend almost entirely on his willingness and ability to make radical changes. His lifestyle must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back. He is in no position to negotiate when it comes to extraordinary precautions, because those precautions are designed to prevent another affair and help you feel safe. He must also meet your emotional needs in a way that until now he has failed. Unless he makes a 180 degree turn in her approach to what it means to be a husband, your marriage won't recover, it will be a crippled version of your pre-affair marriage.

You have nothing to lose and everything to gain by taking this approach, because if he won't do these things, you will have lost nothing except a loveless, abusive marriage.

The above approach is your only hope.

The problem is not you. It's an affair, and he is gas lighting you.

*depressed*

Atlanta,

Get out NOW before you have any children with this man, I don't see a happy future, only replay after replay of affairs.

I would suggest that WH is addicted to the admiration he gets from other women, his charm with other people is not real as you well know, but only a way of keeping his drug supply flowing.

Please get out, and don't look back at his sodom and gomorrah.

Don't be depressed this is your liberation from 10 or 20 years of suffering.

God Bless
Gamma

Do what Melodylane has suggested, and you cannot fail.

Do you have children?

we don't have any children. I look at his son and I think there is the baby I wanted. He gave it to someone else. :'(

His ex wife told me yesterday she is tired of him and doesn't want him around at all. she just wants to live alone with her two children and have a peaceful life. I think they wore each other out.

So much anger and pain in this situation.

Did you read my post?

Don't count on it.

Wouldn't it be wonderful to be married to a man you love AS MUCH OR MORE as your husband but he was a man who loved you, cared for you so much that he took extraordinary precautions to avoid an affair? Why would you settle for an abusive cheater when you can have that?

You can have short term pain and long term gain OR you can have short term pain AND long term pain.

Take your pick...

Please read.
Please Explain Gaslighting

I read your post Melody, thank you.

I know already he won't quit that job right now.

His communication to me for many months has been that my constant "fighting" has worn him out and hurt and angered him so much that though he would like to do as I ask him, he is so resentful and worn out he doesn't want to do anything for me at all. He requested that I drop the "fight" and simply let's work to be happy. And when he has restored, he feels he will want to do as I ask. Right now he says he could care less. He says he comes into contact with me and he is happy to see me and looking forward to talking and immediately I ( he says) beging to attack him and be angry, etc. , and at that moment, all desire to talk to me and interact leaves him.

What do I do? I am so hurt and angry myself. I tried to do it his way all of January and February. I got positive results from him until I asked him to wait a while to start his efforts to have his super team at work. Then it all went to heck.

Melodylane told you what to do. It's a plan that will work.

I am reading that link Brainhurts. he is always telling me that I am mentally ill. I get upset about these things and he says "go to the drugstore and get your pills!"

I admit I have been getting really upset and I have been getting really ugly, disrespectful, raging, making dumb threats that I don't really want to carry through on like telling him I am going to pound his co-worker. I don't really want to argue with the lady, I want her to go away and stop believing she has a special relationship with him.

It will only work as long as you shut up and put up with his abuse. Here is what you should do if you want to have a great marriage though:

Set him down and explain to him that you want to have a romantic, loving, SAFE marriage and that you won�t stay in a loveless marriage where you are subjected to more affairs. Tell him you are willing to give him an opportunity to earn your forgiveness for his last affair. In order for the marriage to recover, certain things have to happen. This is what it will take to keep you interested:

1. end all contact with the XW-OW for life [all contact should be facilitated through a designated intermediary]

2. no more nights apart or going out without each other - create a healthy, integrated lifestyle

3. complete transparency - cell phone passwords, etc

4. no more opposite sex friendships

5. complete honesty about his affair<s> � passing a polygraph

6. quit his job and find another one - end all contact with his current OW and find a job where he doesn't work with women

7. commit to the Marriage Builders program for recovery as outlined in the book Surviving an Affair.

Tell him "this is what it will take to keep me in this marriage."

Whether your marriage ends up with success or failure will depend almost entirely on his willingness and ability to make radical changes. His lifestyle must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back. He is in no position to negotiate when it comes to extraordinary precautions, because those precautions are designed to prevent another affair and help you feel safe. He must also meet your emotional needs in a way that until now he has failed. Unless he makes a 180 degree turn in her approach to what it means to be a husband, your marriage won't recover, it will be a crippled version of your pre-affair marriage.

You have nothing to lose and everything to gain by taking this approach, because if he won't do these things, you will have lost nothing except a loveless, abusive marriage.

The above approach is your only hope.

What you did was ask him to stop seeing his Hoe, and he responded with abuse to bully you into just giving in so he can continue to have his fun.

that is true. I am scared of his reactions. he threatens to divorce me constantly because I have such a terrible temper. I didn't have any bad temper for 3 years, then he cheated. And I guess that has become status quo at the moment.

Sorry you are here but welcome. You are getting great advice.

Just want to point out something that I noticed (and many BS's are guilty of this):

I notice a lot of your focus is on OW as being the "problem" here. Like, if you could just get rid of her, things would improve.

Your WH is the problem. Not only does he feels incredibly entitled to get his ENs met outside the marriage but he has led a secret second life (SSL) your entire marriage, evidenced by the child and affair he kept hidden from you with his ex W.

If this current OW ends up moving, it will be a matter of time before he finds OW3. To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if there were other "other women"/things that he has kept hidden from you in his secret second life. Actually, I would bet on it. That's the MO of this type of cheater.

I would strongly advise you to present him with Melody's plan and get yourself into Plan B immediately if he rejects it. You are going to end up with serious health problems if you continue on this way.

Something you might want to read: What Are Plan A and Plan B

You should take him up on his "threat" if he won't make immediate, radical changes on the list. Otherwise, you won't have a marriage. There is nothing here to lose, my dear. You don't have a marriage. You have an abusive relationship with a selfish, entitled serial cheater who does not care if he makes you suffer.

He does not care about you.

And he won't ever care if you continue to lower the bar so drastically. He is just living down to your expectations.

I don't feel he cares about me either. He is actively angry right now. I don't think any conversation with him will be productive at the moment. I will wait a few days and talk to him then.

Probably I will be going to plan b. Probably he won't mind.

Do you think he really believes that my temper over what he is doing is really worse than his affair and OC? Or is he just faking me out?

This is a very dysfunctional plan. The issue isn't HIS reaction, it is that he understands your conditions. It is an illusion to imagine that you can control his reaction. YOU CANNOT. And this belief is part of the dysfunction that has allowed you to tolerate his abuse all this time.


I agree. He doesn't care about you.


You are kidding, right?

Waiting to have this discussion with him is conflict avoidance. There is absolutely no legitimate reason to wait to tell him. I would tell him and then make plans to separate. I seriously doubt he will have any interest in your conditions. And those conditions are the ONLY WAY you can possibly have a marriage with him.

Are you saying the he is having an Angry Outburst right now?

*I* don't believe what he is saying

and yes, I am scared to talk to him. it is extremely painful to me. I intend to do it, though.

Prisca when I talked to him earlier today he was very agressive. He made clear he wanted left alone. He then said all I do is think of my own self and what I want and as a result he feels like I don't care for him.

We talked a bit longer and he softened up. But it's pretty clear he will be extremely hostile. I think he needs a few days to calm down.

I know you are scared, Atlanta. But it is the right thing to do. You don't have the luxury of giving into your fear. You won't find solutions that way.

That is conflict avoidance. He is using hostility to control and abuse you. You should not reward him for that.

It's not your fault he looks bad. He looks bad because he is behaving badly. His actions with this other woman are reprehensible, and he makes it even worse by abusing you over it.

This is not an acceptable way for a man to treat his wife. Any man who does these things would look terrible.

If you are waiting for a perfect time to tell him, you will be waiting forever, because there is no such thing as a perfect time. But there is such a thing as conflict avoidance. There is absolutely no reason to wait to tell him. He will bully you today if you tell him and he will bully you next week if you tell him.

If you don't think you can handle his bully routine, why not write out your conditions in a letter and give it to him tonight? Give it to him in writing instead? And if he won't meet your conditions, ask him to move out.

I agree with Melody. Talk to him now. Give him the list of requirements.

If he becomes angry and hostile, calmly walk away and go to Plan B ASAP.

I wanted to wait until after the weekend. I won't extend it further than that.

What would be the purpose of waiting?

It takes all of 5 minutes to give him your conditions and get his response.

Atlanta, how do you think he will react to your list of conditions?

I am waiting because I can feel a panick attack lurking. I am scared I won't be in control of myself when I feel afraid.

I think he will refuse to respond to me. He does that. If he doesn't want to talk about something, he ignores what I say, just like I never said it.

If I press him to respond, he will tell me how this is my fault and that I am what he said earlier: dangerous, etc. And he will want to reinforce that to me instead of talking about what I ask for.

Most likely though, he will ignore it and pretend I didn't tell him anything.

Then calmly walk away and go to Plan B ASAP. He's given you an answer.

You know, you can learn new habits that help you to overcome anger. Dr. Harley eliminated his own angry outbursts and stresses elimination of angry outbursts as crucial within marriage, with anger management therapy as needed.

BUT,

the abuse of catting around in affairs and flirting with women is at least as damaging to you as angry outbursts would be to him. He is just making excuses to try to brainwash you into putting up with his disgusting behavior! Somehow a lot of philandering men and women manage to abuse their faithful spouses into thinking that this kind of stuff is "normal" and that the problem is on them for not accepting it.

ANYBODY would be upset with their husband or wife for behaving the way your husband is behaving!!


The pain of living in a marriage with a serial philanderer is far worse on your health and psyche than a divorce! Call his bluff on this, turn it around, and put yourself in control: it is YOU who are in the driver's seat and don't have to put up with his nastiness. Explain to him that he has ONE and only ONE chance to keep you, and that it will only happen if he follows the plan MelodyLane described.

He fights so hard and abuses you so much to try to force you to stay with him even though he knows that by all rights you should leave him.

I know what he really wants because this sort of thing happens when I get THAT upset. He is hurt and angry, says he is giving up on me, then he turns his back on me and gives me the silent treatment.

the only thing he will respond to is me telling him how wrong I am and how I agree I need to work on my issues. He wants me to validate his opinion and validate his hurt and anger. Then he wants me to work very hard to be better while he corrects me on what I am doing. Once he is satisfied I have done that, then he relaxes and does what he wants until I can't tolarate it and I get upset.


I feel really intimidated.

I'm sure he will notice when his house key suddenly doesn't work in a day or so. I would keep deadly quiet and start making preparations for this immediately, without any more indication. Let it hit him with shock and awe. It's the only chance for him to realize that he is going to have to change.

Writing this down, boy do I look pathetic. thing is, I am not ever agreeing with him. I acknowledge I lost temper. But I always disagree with him nearly on a daily basis about that co worker of his and him being around her.

Goodness, I wouldn't get into any of that with him.

He will start to be frightened when you quit having these discussions with him, and he will start to worry that maybe he's not going to keep getting away with this after all.

And then when he's locked out of the house without warning....

So take control. Give him YOUR requirements. If he has an Angry Outburst, walk away. If he gives you the silent treatment, walk away. And let him be shocked when you follow through and he can't get to you anymore.

He can't intimidate you in Plan B.

Atlanta, you will feel emboldened when you take back control of your life. You can show him that you have conditions and that he can no longer control you with his anger. You embolden his bully act by rewarding him. The abuse and manipulation that you are enduring is making you emotionally sick. And before long it will make you physically sick.

You have nothing to lose other than a sick, abusive marriage. Suffering in silence will not buy you a happy marriage. It will buy you more suffering while he continues to put you second behind his workplace girlfriend.

And you have every right to disagree with him, Hon! YOU ARE HIS WIFE! She's his Hoe. How dare he expect you to put up with that.

This is not about your temper or the slut co-worker. This is about your conditions.

Tell him "this is no longer about my temper or your creepy coworker, this is about my conditions. You either agree to meet my conditions or you don't. If not, I would ask that you move out because our marriage won't work unless you do."

If he tries to change the subject hold your hand up [STOP!] and say "no, lets stay on subject." Then bring it back. If he continues to try and distract you, leave the room.

See, he doesn't believe you will ever do anything to stop his bullying. He believes he can whatever he wants to you and you will do nothing to stop it.

You need to make a DECISION to do something about it. You can choose to be strong tonight. No fighting, just firm and straightforward about your conditions.

what do i say to a silent man who hangs up on me or walks out of the house when I persist?

I can do this and I will. I am sitting here though, already accepting that he doesn't care for me anyway and if he doesn't care if I am around, I don't feel he would care enough to do what I ask? I really feel discarded.

When we had the fight 3 weeks ago, I told him I felt that way, and he said "I support you, but you are insane."

Then he disappeared and I never went looking for him. 3 weeks and he never once came looking for me. It was me who looked for him at work and tried to talk to him. Then I got upset again,( moderately because I was walking along side him and he flat out refused to acknowledge me.) and he then tore me up today for offending him yesterday by getting angry at him and telling him to stop be so evil to me.

Nothing. If he refuses to talk to you about your requirements, then he has given you his answer. Silence is an answer. He's telling you're not worth it. So, if that is how he responds, go to Plan B.

The way to feel different is to follow the plan here.

This is not something he gets to drag out and ignore. He either responds positively, or he's out.

You're raising the bar here. If he won't rise to meet it, YOU'RE discarding HIM.

Ok I just tried to call him. It is almost 10PM in my time zone. He didn't answer. Usually he stays up late, but he makes a habit of not answering if I call when he thinks I am upset. Which is kind of most of the time.

I left a message. I doubt I will hear back from him tonight. He is already mad at me.

It feels pretty unfair to have the weight of the huge problems he created and have him trying to convince me that yelling at him is the reason we are failing in the marriage.

And I don't know if people saw in that huge first message I wrote, he is currently living with his mother and his younger sister. His mother is very picky about when people go in and out of the house at night, she locks the front door at 10PM and tells off anyone showing up after that or trying to leave after that.

Prisca, I don't get the impression after the last 3 weeks that he really cares if he is out... :((

Please read.
Conflict Avoidance is the Kiss of Death

ok, I will, thank you.

Another:
How to Plan B Correctly

((HUGS))
We already know he doesn't care. What you're doing is giving him the chance to prove you wrong. Then you are going to protect yourself from him with Plan B. And you are going to feel so wonderful when you are free from his abuse that you are going to wonder why you waited so long.

What did you say in the message you left him?

Wow I went back and read your huge first post.

I'm so concerned with everything your WH is doing to you that I'm concerned you will end up in the hospital or he will have you arrested.

Can you get a VAR and make sure you have it on you at all times?

Also working at the same company and when you go into Plan B will you be able to have NC at all with him? Or will he be able to see you?

When can you get into a dark Plan B?

He moved out and is living with his mother?

Yes and his younger sister. He left 3 weeks ago after the fight.

That is great! That means you can just send him a letter giving him your conditions. If he agrees, then great. If not, you can just go right on into Plan B.

I can do it that way..I doubt he will answer.

I think it will take a while before he does, at least.

We are in different departments at work, thanks to him and his co-worker

I actually have to go across the building and to a different floor to find him.

I simply said in the voice mail that I would like to speak to him and would he please call me back.

He hasn't called back, it's almost 11 PM.

Why not write him up a nice little email and send over your conditions? Then if he doesn't respond in 24 hours, just assume he is declining your nice offer and change the locks, pack up his crap and send him a plan b letter.

Can you think of a way to get transferred to another job site so you don't have to leave your job? Plan B is a complete and total dark separation.

So can you get an IM and change the locks on your house and send him the PBL with your conditions?

So if he wanted to he could find you at work? Can you transfer?

I sent him the mail.

I have an IM. And yes, can change the house locks.

He rarely comes over to where I work. He usually expects me to come to him.

There are possibilities of transfer within the company. I will have to look. There is even a possibility of even working from home mostly. , I have options there, though I tend to feel isolated when I do that.

I should be someplace he can't even see me if he walks past?

Yes. Plan B means you're so dark he can't contact you. This will help you heal so much more.

You need to also change ALL your contact information. Will you be able to block his email since you work at the same company?

I can set the email filter to direct his mails to the spam folder.

I think it will be a long time before he tries to say anything. His usual method is to give silent treatment after he walks out on me and goes to his mom's. I get the feeling he just drifts on forever when he is that way and nothing about me matters to him.

He has been expressing a lot of anger and hurt lately. I ask to talk about it and he says "nevermind", then he will barely speak to me.

Honestly he is treating ME like I am the one who cheated and did all of those things he did. Whenever he comes back around, all he wants to do is tell me how damaging and ill I am. It's been really disheartening to realize he feels that way about me and is trying to get me to skew my world view so out of alignment.

What is that? Why would he think I would agree with his views. I never agree with them, usually I skip over agreeing and go direct to letting him know I understand how he feels... empathy.. and empathy is not agreement, it's just saying I understand he is feeling a certain way.

It's called gaslighting. He wants to shift his wrong doings onto you. It will drive you crazy trying to figure out a Wayward's mind.

That's why Plan B is for your well being. The darker your Plan B the better for you.

Ok, I totally understand that.

How soon can you get the locks changed and a transfer at work?

If I don't hear back from him by 9AM tomorrow morning, I will call a locksmith and change the locks. I'd like to get it done before the weekend.

As far as work, I am told I can start going to the office across town instead of coming into this office. Or I can work a few days here and there from home if I like. They don't care as long as I get things done on deadline. With internet and skype conferencing and all of that, it really isn't that hard to avoid where he is.

What do I do about the gaslighting and projecting if he comes back and agrees to things? Because these things have been nearly pathological. I have had him do something right in front of me and then insist he didn't do what he just did. I mean like 3 feet from where I am standing. Of course I tell him I am not that silly as to agree with him trying to deny it. But it happens over and over. It's utterly exhausting.

You don't allow contact unless he meets all your conditions that you have in your PBL.

What conditions have you given him?

I followed Melody's list.

I am afraid of the deceptions and projections. I can never convince him that what he is saying to me about me is not true. And realistically, I really have been very angry to him in the last 6 months. It's all he wants to focus on. He has out right told me that he feels no urge at all to do what I ask him to do because I am being so angry and unpredictable. He says he would like to on one level, but on the other level, he just can't make himself do it. He asks that I calm down, accept reality of him working and being friends with that woman co worker ( and he insists he has no conversation with her that does not involve work) and he wants me to be "strong and calm" and he feels he will love me properly again and want to do what I am asking.

I guess. I am sorry, though, at this point I feel like I am allowing him to rape my mind and soul if I agree to suck it up and do all of that for him while he ignores the hurt to me over the affair, the new child, his disregard of my needs and feelings.

He has made clear, though, that he has ZERO interest in me or the marriage until *I* make it right with him. That is where a lot of my anger and panic are coming from. Some times I feel like he is a big hairy spider and I want to take a book and smash him into jelly. I guess that is not a polite idea though..

I haven't read all this thread yet but I see Melody is bopping you on the head already... She bopped me a few times too.

I was gaslighted and fed false hope and lies and even went through a few false recoveries while he continued gaslighting me. I am now in plan b until he files divorce or leaves her for good.

She is right about getting yourself sick. From late Oct thru March I had several colds which led to the flu which led to pneumonia all because of the stress of dealing with my WH and his drama. Its HIS drama not yours. HE did this not you. Stop listening to him. Assume everything he tells you is a lie. It probably is.

Ok, will continue to read and chime in if I have more to say...

But please listen to these good people... I didn't want to do plan b either... I wanted to talk it out... there is no talking to these waywards. They live in a fantasy world they created and you bringing them reality just makes them mad... at YOU.

I'm sorry to say, Atlanta, that your biggest enemy here, right now, is you.

You know the truth intellectually but you don't want to accept it emotionally.

You've been treated horribly. You roil with the pain, the shock, the injustice, the loneliness. You want to know WHY. Sadly, there are no answers that will soothe your pain

I see and I feel your pain. I am very sorry that you are going through this.

Just know that plan B will take away your pain.

Atlanta... Oh sweety, I was you just a few months ago. I still miss him and wish it were different. But I promise you, once you take back control of the situation by not putting up with it and not letting him tell you lies you really do feel like the one with the power. YOU get to choose now.

Ok, reading more thread...

and to tell you what a piece of work his OW is... she came on these boards... she found the plan and poja and no contact.. and she is trying to get MY WH to do these things to ME as a way to save THEIR relationship. LMAO.. someone needs to learn their place. I am the wife still. SHE is the posow...

I guess I keep getting stuck on the possibility he may be being honest with me at this point. His co-worker is married to a surgeon. She has a fantastic life. She has approached me a couple of times, telling me that he was a friend at one point, but nothing more. He can displays flashes of meaness and very rude behavior at times, and she said she had gotton it in the face a number of times. She said now "he is just someone I work with" and that she avoids talking to him very much otherwise, because she doesn't like to be on the recieving end of the nastiness.

I keep thinking maybe it may be that I am so uncertain in anything due to all of the gaslighting that went on with the affair with his ex wife and his very successful actions to cover up her pregnancy to me and he birth of his son. Talk about stunned and flabbergasted and the sheer bizarreness and agony hitting my brain all at once. I was near speechless for weeks, I couldn't even wrap my head around it, I didn't know what to think or feel, or what to do or much of anything. I remember I would sit on the bed and the cat would sit in my lap and I was there for hours and hours trying to process it, but my brain just would slide right off of it. I mean, I knew it was true and I knew he had really done major damage... and all this man can think about is how awful I am for telling him I am going to kick his co worker in the behind if she doesn't stay away from him.

It is sheer madness to me that knowing how I feel and how I am going to pieces, that he would put HER in his team and add to the fear and confusion and pain I am feeling.

Sorry, I guess I keeping trying to figure out why he would EVER think I am ok with him deliberately and knowingly doing this. He just responds with, she is already working in that office, it is NOT his fault she is there, but since she is there and one of the best, he might as well use her talants on his team and I need to stop being stupid about reality and accepting reality.

It's not that I think he can control her being in his office. It's that he knows how I feel, WHY I feel that way, and that I am struggling, and HE adds to it by pulling her in closer. I don't actually think he did it to BE closer to her, I think he just doesn't care how I feel.

How can I ever feel safe or recover with him when he has that mentality?

And thank you to everyone coming over with their stories and support. It really helps me get my head out of this insanity.

Whew!

You cannot recover or feel safe as long as he maintains that mentality.
You are (unfortunately) correct.

I am not an optimist at this point that he will change any time soon. His story is that he is exhausted from me and I am to leave him alone. He is also very angry at me for talking so much and trying to "force" him to do things he doesn't want to do.

I never talked so much the way he means before I found out about the other child

I feel relieved at the thought of not feeling internal pressure to talk to him at all now, though I deeply miss the good times together and him being stable and happy himself.

I am thinking about that comment of this is all his drama. It is. My family and friends never intrude and cause problems, and I never stray from being true to him or being honest, or looking for ways to make things better. I am sad that all my talking and asking appear to me being THE problem.

well when I mean "never", I mean everyone is respectful to him and don't approach him in negative or problem causing ways. My mother certainly is not happy with his actions atm and my brother is pretty ticked off at him, along with my friends. But they support me and don't intrude to him.

None of this talks about you taking up Plan B.

That is really what you should be discussing at this point.

Yes, you cannot. It's not your fault. Yes, it makes no sense. Such wanton cruelty. You must now protect yourself.

Plan B will help you. You do not have to ever sit on the side of your bed like that again.

A-14

Have you spoken to a family law attorney and been educated/informed about your spousal rights?

Ok so let's get you focused back to your Plan B list.

Tomorrow locks will be changed.
Contact information changed. Set up work email to go to spam. What about Your work phone number?

Plan B letter written. IM set up. Do they understand their role?
Visit a lawyer?

I have a friend who is an attorney. I will call her. My work number, directly to me is my work cell. I will block his number on both my personal and business cell phones after 9AM tomorrow.

My IM does understand their role.

Thanks for copying all of that again to me. I guess I was getting distracted in the arguments and confusions in my head again.

Writing that love letter just in case.

I will start packing his personal things tomorrow if he doesn't respond and see if his sister will come get them.

Have your doors locked when they come to get them.

No folding no fuss necessary. Dump his crap into any suitable receptacle. The LESS TIME you spend on getting his stuff packed, the better off you will be.

We totally understand, friend.

One more thing I forgot to add.

What self-care do you have planned for you? It's the weekend. Can you be with family or friends? Get a manicure or a pedicure? Or a spa day?

haha, yes ok. He won't like that. It's kind of funny, though.

I mean the stuff in the boxes thing.

I can spend time with my family. I guess I need to think more about the self care stuff.

You're in control of where this marriage is headed now, okay? Don't take anymore of his crap.

I'm concerned about you sadly folding each garment and going down memory lane , weeping, and getting very very upset.

Just dump it all.

Yes, you have some serious healing to do.

DITTO

Atlanta,

I guess I keep getting stuck on the possibility he may be being honest with me at this point.

He is a serial cheater, with seemingly malignant narcissism, who trigger a rescue fantasy in those he ensnares. Since he lacks all self-reflection or self-critical abilities there is very little hope he can ever reform.

He also sound like a catch and release guy, who keeps makes up and breaks up cyclically, keeping women addicted/in his life to meet his needs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malignant_narcissism

His co-worker is married to a surgeon. She has a fantastic life.

I wonder if deep down guys like your WH aren't motivated by a deep seated hatred of women, and this is exactly the kind of woman who's life he would have pleasure destroying.

Also getting rid of this guy will feel like losing 30 pound in a diet.

God Bless
Gamma

You underestimate this man, Gamma. More like 175 pounds.

180 pounds, lol.

The malignant narcissim is horrific. omg. Whatever problems in life we have, he has, I pray he is not that kind of predator.

We moved into this house a year ago. new start. oh well. the boxes are in the attic.

He has these huge dramas where he gets so upset, it is the end of the world. There is not much of a filter between his brain and his mouth at that point. For example, he is upset, and I ask what I can do to help, and he says "leave me and never come back" or "congratulations on ruining another chance for us to be happy. You want to cause problems? Ok then, farewell to you."

Bleh.

Atlanta,

I didn't read every post on your thread but, it sounds like you are more of a commodity/asset to him than a wife.

What is keeping you from leaving if over half the relationship has been conflict, betrayal and stress?

If he doesn't respond positively to her email, she's kicking him out tomorrow and going to Plan B, RMX

"Bleh."

You sound healthier already!!!

Sometimes its just a matter of hearing "you are NOT crazy" "your feelings ARE justified" and "you DESERVE better".

Those are all true.

Sadly he has tried very hard to convince you otherwise.

We had a very good first couple of years. It was a fairytale, wonderful, he was the kindest and and most caring man. Self contained, sweet. And I still see glimpses of it.

I think his battle with his ex wife may have ruined him. And he has had that struggle there with her jerking him around over the kids in terrible ways, his own guilt, then anger and hopelessness. I feel sympathy to him, but he has become very angry, bitter, defiant, self entitled, cruel. It looks like a 2 year rage to me, which coincides with the birth of his son.

I guess here and now is probably not the place to analyze him, but I guess if he is some sort of narcissist, he may have hyper focused on the job situation as a means of trying to do something to "fix" the injury to his self worth after cheating, the baby, lying, etc. He was very despondant after he had cheated, low and despairing while he was in the affair. Then he broke free and came home, and for about a month he seemed to be pulling it together, then took a sudden deep plunge and shut me out, became very angry and mean in a lot of ways, cold, and evasive.

Looking back, I suspect his attitude changed when his ex informed him of the pregnancy. She was also at me a lot, telling me how he was going to divorce me and marry her again because "a family belongs together".

Atlanta, I don't care what your WH likes or doesn't like. He's disqualified himself from the discussion.

Pack up his box and remove it from your abode forthwith. Then go into a deep plan B.

In plan B lies peace, clarity, calm, acceptance. Take it, use it, find your feet and your serenity. Good luck, my friend.

You are excusing him, dear. You are not holding him to the same moral standards to which you hold yourself to.

Stop excusing him. I think Gamma is right in his estimation. At the very least, WH is a weak, destructive and very selfish man.

You have tried your best. Let him go and you think of yourself.
Plan B.

Atlanta, we need to call you out on such BS(betrayed spouse) fogbabbly.

You already told us this about your M:



He has been cheating and lying to you for your entire marriage.

I think he has been.

I guess that is all the stuff that goes through my head. Excusing him. I have been trying to sort out myself on what is probably co-dependence with all of that.

Yes, not only excusing him but taking it a step further and demonizing his ex (a borderline personality type that "damaged" him??? HUH?) in order to make his behavior make sense.

The answer can be found in the basic concepts. The principles are based on the premise that a spouse must CARE enough to change bad behavior and habits and take their spouse's feelings into consideration when making choices.

Your WH is the one who has a problem here. Not his ex.

You are right. He is the one. And he doesn't care.

YES!!!!!

He's a big boy, with big boy pants on. He knew exactly what he was doing when he left you and moved back in with his XW and getting her pregnant.

You're WORTH SO MUCH MORE, friend.

10:30 PM and I haven't heard from him. From what I know of him and the way he thinks these days, he is sitting there resentful that I am being so selfish and am trying to FORCE him to do something he so obviously has been making plain to me that he doesn't feel like doing because I upset him, disrespected him and have not earned his efforts.

I am not feeling so good about him, I never personally have ever been unwilling to hear him and refused to try to do as he asks. He always meant enough to me. I am not really understanding how someone with such a mountain of transgressions is standing in judgement over me for showing upset over some pretty big things. He always says its ok to be mad, but not to be SOOOOO mad.

Anyway, we will see what he does. I suspect he will be angry and be even more "goodbye to you!"

Drama. Eh.

Eh is right. You don't need it. Either he's willing to make a marriage with you, or he's not. You'll know soon enough. Either way, you're going to be better off.

You're doing great, btw.

Read this.

Wayward Fog Disassembled and Decoded

Your WH is very foggy and a manipulator.

You're doing fantastic with living in such insane situation and removing the drama.

You go girl!!

lol, MelodyLane hehe

Thanks for the link Brainhurts, am reading it now.

I just don't think this guy is going to try. He has so far refused. I think I am worth it, but pretty sure he doesn't. Anyway thanks for the support.

Here's a good one. I hope it makes you laugh.

Soul Mate Shmoopies

I watched a few of those, funny, lol.

He didn't respond. I called the locksmith. I am taking the second half the day off from work and will meet the locksmith at the house and pack up his things.

I am curious why people here are not telling me how badly I messed up and how sick and mental I am for jumping all over his office mate and telling her husband. I really did get in her face the last 18 months, very nasty and pushy at her.

From my husbands point of view I am out of control, ill, I am hurting innocent people and he just can't deal with someone like me.

I have been fairly calm for the last 3 or so weeks. Usually something like this happens, then once he is satisfied I am sorry and acknowledged how ill I am to him ( little voice in me doesn't agree, but at least it gets us talking). I guess I have an episode of this sort of thing every 3-4 months.

I feel kind of angry today at him. I want to tell him what I think of his crappy mentality and actions.

You're going thru he11 right now so chill out on yourself a bit. AO's are wrong no matter what, even if you're REALLY mad at him. But, we've all been there and done that. You confronted & exposed and got emotional in the process. Betrayal does this to people.

Thats why we're told to clean up our side of the street no matter what WS does. Soon, you'll be a better person and be calm no matter what happens. It takes work and it looks like you're doing it. You're getting awesome advice and you will get thru this.

Don't ever admit that you are ill, if you're not. That gives him ammunition to use against you. You're the sane one here. Getting him talking at your expense is not good for you.

That is the most NORMAL and RATIONAL thing you have done in the past few years. Nothing "sick" about getting in the face of someone who is assaulting you. The only issue with that is that you could have been arrested. Otherwise you did great!!

Yes, your angry outbursts was destructive behavior. You would do well, for your own health and well being, to learn to control your anger and learn to remain calm in the face of extremely frustrating and emotionally charged situations.

Dr. Harley calls angry outbursts "temporary insanity." It's not good for you, because you have turned off your brain and there is no telling what you will do.

However, no one here looks down on you for your attack on the OW. Many understand why you were so angry and empathize.

But, yes, learn to control your anger

Atlanta, although we are responsible for our own angry outbursts, did you have a problem with anger before you got married?

No. I didn't have a problem. I don't have a problem with it in any other areas of my life. I get along wonderfully with family and friends, my co-workers, etc.

With him, oh he was so precious to me, I never had temper with him. I would tell him if I didn't like something, but I was so careful never to be unkind about it. We didn't have any problems with my temper until a few years into things when I started letting him know I didn't like some things he was doing with regard to his ex wife. She was harrassing me. And if I responded to her in any way, he would nail me to the wall on it. He said that I was only creating conflict and "catfighting" over him. And he told me he didn't really care how his ex felt, but he cared about how his little girl felt. And by responding to his ex, I was upsetting her, and then would upset his daughter by going crazy. He told me THIS IS MY CHILD!

Then it really degraded from there. It became constant increasing conflict with the lady, until one day he just walked out.
What I didn't know then was he had re-engaged with her and was trying to conceal it and was beating me into not talking to his ex, because she was telling me he was over there with her and he was scared I would figure it out.

I have had a terrible time with the issues over his co-worker. He says I am scapegoating her. Maybe to some degree. I do think on that. It occured to me recently that possibly I am transferring all of my pain and anger to someone who doesn't deserve the strength of what I dumped on her. But she really has made clear over and over that she will run to my husband and use him to bully me back. She just listens and turns around and goes to him and he attacks me over it, threatening divorce, calling me insane, dangerous, unstable... and he makes sure SHE knows he is doing it.

Sorry, I guess I can't write a short answer, I have loads of upset over this. I am so hurt and frustrated.

When I say increasing conflict, I would ignore her behavior until she escalated it to something that shocked me enough that I would tell her to leave me alone. For exampled she stole the sim card from my husbands cell phone and she began texting me all
about how he no longer loved me and wanted to be with her because he can't live without her love.

That one got me pretty badly. She would also go on to social sites and find my family and harrass them there, or she set up social pages pretending to be men and sexually harrassed ME to the point I had to deactivate the page and I didn't go back. Who needs facebook anyway?

Plan B is going to be wonderful for you

He's the one that is ill, Atlanta. He's been abusing you since the beginning of your marriage, and making you believe it is all your fault. He baits you, over and over, dangling his OW in front of you, then punishes you for being angry.

This is you, under normal circumstances.


TRANSLATION:

"Atlanta14, don't you DARE stand up for yourself. Atlanta14, you are responsible for everyone else's feelings, and so you must just SHUT UP and do what I tell you."



Your WH is a some-a-beach.


100% gas-lighting on WH's part.



The co-worker is not your big problem. Your WH's attitude of entitlement, and his gas-lighting .... now, those are PROBLEMS.

Well I need to hear that. I guess mainly, the loss of temper and the crazy behavior from me is so counter to who I really know I am.. but I still have done it. It crushes my view of myself that I always had as a respectful person who has dignity. I always tried to be like my mother who is calm and probably one of the most dignified and classy women I ever have known. Unfortunately I have a streak of temper she doesn't have. And I guess I justified my open loss of it with "waaaahhhh, he is being terrible and I have a right to be so upset and awful back."

I feel embarressed now, lol. Oh well, I know I can do better now.

Imagine a spouse who feels entitled to do what he pleases, no questions asked.

Have you pictured that person?

Things function pretty well as long as that entitled spouse is not challenged.
He can be sweet and kind and very pleasant to be around. He has things going his way.

The longer the entitled spouse goes unchallenged, the bigger his entitlement grows. He DESERVES things. He does not earn respect, he DESERVES it (in his entitled mind). He does not concern himself with anyone else's needs/desires/problems.

Have you pictured that person?

The entitled spouse has not learned any coping skills to handle a challenge to his world view that he DESERVES certain things from everyone else. His appetite for "more" grows, as he DESERVES everything he wants. Along comes a problem, and the entitled spouse has his selfish choices challenged. THAT person has to be "wrong". Why? Because the entitled spouse DESERVES to have his desires met. Any challenge to his "right" to get what he wants morphs into a demand to have "NO QUESTIONS ASKED" about his choices.

Have you pictured that person?

The spouse now has been silenced. If the spouse dares to speak up - She is immediately branded as
selfish
controlling
crazy
biotchy
pre-menstrual
stupid
suspicious
delusional
and just plain dumb

The entitled spouse believes every name he calls his spouse. Only a selfish biotch could possibly question what he DESERVES.

Have you pictured that person?

Don't be embarrassed that your "Taker" showed rebellion.

Have you learned about "giver" and "taker" yet?

A brief review is included in the "Buyers Renters Freeloaders" link in my sig line.

Your TAKER is the gal who loves you unconditionally. She's the one who holds her tongue for as long as she can, and then the anger explodes.

Read up on it.

Did you show the text to her husband?

The problem is that your abusive husband has about driven you crazy. Just imagine a woman who gets beat up every day by her husband. After a while she might kick back. You KICKED BACK! Your husband has turned you into a crazy woman. This is why you need to get away from him.

Yes, but, has your mother ever dealt with infidelity? If she had, I'll bet you'd see her taker come out a bit too. Claws and all.

Here are the facts about your case as I read them:

You have been married for 5 years, with no kids.

Your WH has been cheating on you, lying to you, abusing you and gaslighting you for your entire 5 yr marriage. From what you describe, he is very very cruel to you.

He is now engaged in yet another A, is separated from you yet continues his abusive behaviors from afar.

Being with this man has changed who you are as a person, and not for the better.

PLAN B. This is such a no brainer from the outside looking in! Plan B with the attitude that YOU need to be in some way absolutely swept off your feet by his remorse and dedication to meet your conditions or YOU are not going to remain married to HIM. There is next to nothing to save here, no family unit with kids, no years of happiness prior to the affair, just a short lived highly abusive marriage.

Is he going to turn this around and meet your conditions? Highly unlikely. If I were you I would consider that a good thing. I would go into PLAN B and file Plan D and move on. Even if he meets your conditions, it will take you MORE time to recover from his multiple affairs than you have actually been married...

Honestly, your story is one of the worst cases of cruel gas-lighting I've heard for a long time. It's just dreadful. That you didn't go mad or do more than shout is testimony to your own classiness, Atlanta.

Ok, I will read up on it.

And I do know that person.. I married him.

Mad and sad today, and I am wondering if I created the monster he is acting like. :(((

Atlanta, you are doing great my friend! What Dr Harley says is that unconditional love, which I believe you have afforded him, leads to marriages of neglect and abuse. Rewarding abusive behavior only trains spouses to be more abusive. They learn it works!

Now, I want to focus back on your Plan B. You sent him the letter of conditions I wrote, right?

If so, your next step should be to write him a Plan B letter telling him to not contact you and to contact your IM for only pertinent information about finances or legal issues.

Have you written this letter? Do you know about this letter?

He was a monster before he met you, dear.
The sooner you are free from him, the better.

The ex wife would steal the sim card from his cell phone when he was there to get his daughter, put it into her cell phone, then text me, pretending to be HIM, saying I was not loved or wanted, he was leaving me... and since I knew he was there, the first time she did it had me on the floor in a big mess.

Times after that, I just ignored her.

My mother was married twice. My father was a serial cheater, drunk, and physically abused her. She wanted to kill him one day, she said, instead she left him that day, divorced him, and I only saw him twice, as an adult, after that before he died. Mom remarried, and my stepfather passed away from cancer in 2005. She has since been on her own and my greatest supporter and advocate. She is a wonderful, kind, gentle, and generous person.

I sent him the conditions letter. I haven't sent the second one, so I will do that by email today. I didn't know about the second letter.

Going home now to meet with the locksmith and pack the cheap quality garbage bags..

You are the true daughter of your mother. Pack those bags, dear. Protect yourself now.

We call this one a plan B letter. Because your H is such a manipulator, I would send him a modified version:



Dear WS, since I have not heard a response to my list of conditions, I have decided to end all contact with you for now. It is with heavy heart that I write this letter. I can no longer endure the suffering your affair with OW and relationship with XW has caused. I love you very much but I cannot see you under these conditions.

I hope that we can really work on our marriage some day, but that cannot happen until you make a decision to stop the abuse and commit to ending all contact for life with XW and OW, even if it means leaving that job. As soon as you are willing to end your affair and do whatever it takes to repair our marriage I would be willing to discuss our future. Until that happens, I won't be in direct contact with you and ask that you stay away from our home. I ask that you respect my decision to not contact me.

My friend, Sally, has volunteered to act as intermediary. Please communicate any pertinent information about finances through her. I will separate our finances and deposit my check in my own bank account.

I do love you and hope that some day we can build the marriage we both want. I just can't be with you under these conditions.

All my love, Atlanta

And be sure and block any access after you send the letter. Block his # on your phone and his emails on your email account. He may try to get through just to see if you are serious. It is very important that he does not get through.

If he does try to contact you, your IM should contact him and say, "Atlanta did not listen to your message and has requested all contact come through me."

Can you dump his crap off at his mothers house? He would know you meant business if you showed up at his mom's house and dumped them there before he gets home from work.

I called his mom. She says come over, but apparantly he came home early too, and took his things , clothing, etc from there and has taken off for elsewhere. She has no idea.


He is running away from all of us.


I will send the letter through email and make sure he is blocked, and am going over to his mother's now to drop off the boxes of his most used personal effects. Half the furniture would be going otherwise and I kind of don't feel like sitting on the floor when I watch his big screen tv.

I would hang onto all the furniture and only give him his personal effects. Make him get a court order to get anything else.

Good job calling his mother!!

Do you have evidence of his affair with the current OW? and have you exposed it to her husband? Did you expose their affair at work? Can you bring me up to speed on that?

I don't think he was really ever committed to anyone. That's why so many people have agonised about him (including the ex).

Some people are just like that. You asked earlier whether you had shaped him into this malignant cruel selfish being? As Prisca said, no, he was like that before you met him. You are not responsible for how he behaves. He, only he, is responsible.


I know you feel sad. But you're on the right track.

I don't have any proof of an affair with the woman co-worker, except he has said in the past, that he feels attachment to her and he hadn't decided what it is yet. That was last summer. He has refused to leave the situation where she is, and he told me that he had talked extensively to her about me, our life and such.

Naturally I was not happy about it, and after he had that argument with the other guy at the office, I have been relentlessly insistent that he have as little to do with her as possible. She was smirky to me, which reinforced my beliefs, so I told her off very nastily 3-4 times.

Beyond that, no. Her husband does know. She herself insists there is NOTHING going on. I feel that there has been, with her feeling she is "special" to my husband, while he was reciprocating it. Lately that doesn't feel like it is there as much, but my tolarance is gone, hence the rage at both of them a few weeks ago.

As far as work, people did see some of the conflict, but so far I personally have not heard anything from superiors about it.

I feel low, but I don't have much to say to him. I am becoming concerned that he is unstable and mentally ill. Worried he will harm himself.

Would he play the suicide card? That is a pretty classic trick when a betrayed spouse stops making himself/herself available for abuse. It is a tactic to get the BS back under control. That is usually played by women but I think your husband sounds like a histrionic personality and would use that card if he felt it would work for him.

If he does play that card, I would strongly suggest you call 911 and get him hospitalized.

I think maybe he is more likely to create a bunch of emo drama, looking to be patted and soothed and begged to stay or something.

He always leaves. Then comes back.

His sister told me he also took down his facebook page and left his cellphone and computer notebook on the kitchen table.

Did you drop his stuff off at his mothers? Have you sent him the Plan B letter yet?

I did on both counts.

You've done so well, dear. So now what self-care do you have planned?

I know you said you had a problem with AOs. Have you ever had one with anyone other than your WH?

Time to stop thinking about him, and start thinking of your self Hon Pedicure? Massage?? What's your pampering of choice?

I just want to do my hobbies this weekend. Usually I am too anxious to focus on them. I like to read ( usually can't sit still) and I am an amatuer photographer. Usually to tired from being too anxious to sleep. I am actually calm right now, tired but not tired in the way you get when someone else is in control and not being decent about it.

I had tantrums when I was a child. After I was about 6, though, I stopped. I don't have AO with anyone but him, his ex wife, and his co-worker. I think probably the years of trying to deal with having my head messed with has taken down my capacity.

I can get angry, but typically I don't very often. I just don't. I can usually excuse myself if I feel upset enough to have an outburst.

In the last few months I have been working on co-dependancy. I feel like bad boundries have led to me not protecting myself. When I feel "danger" I get upset. With my husband, my fear has been very high and the strain of being constantly threatened with abandonment, or being blamed for the problems, or being afraid he is cheating again.. I can't go back into that and feel stable for long without being a really strong person. I was thinking I could become one and then I would know when I need to take breaks before I get upset.

His main complaint is that I get so upset. And that is his reasoning for rejecting, leaving, etc.

I used to be the queen of AOs. Not at anyone, but my WH. I had to take anger management.

What helped me more than anything was the book Love Busters and this Anger Management 101

I had to really understand (Dr. Harley helped me with this) is that no one makes me angry. I control myself.

That is a form of gaslighting. He rewrites history and shifts blame on you for his despicable behavior. That is why exposure is so important. So the wayward can't spin the story "we were having communication problems due to her anger" or some other nonsense.

Atlanta17,

I've been following your thread for the past couple of days, and I have to say I'm very proud of you. You have done really well. Make sure you have a nice, dark Plan B. Don't let anyone tell you about WH, and make sure it is impossible for him to contact you. If he does find a way through, plug that hole and continue on. Enjoy the peace that Plan B brings. There will be some pain, but the darker you are, the quicker that pain goes away. Well done.

AJJ

Ok, I listened to the radio clips. Thank you for that. Interesting comment Dr. Harley makes about forging new neural pathways, and how it becomes easier as a result. That is so encouraging. I have narrowed my anger trigger down to abandonment. I have some trouble spots in my past.

Thank you, Ajose. I am amazed by the support here. It's like triage in an emergency room.

The healthier you become (self improvement and self care) the easier it becomes for you to maintain your proper Plan B boundary. The better you become at maintaining your proper Plan B boundary, the better you become at personal boundaries in general. We call this success at MB.

What we do not call a success at MB is when folks return to a relationship with their wayward before learning how to maintain boundaries.

Boundaries are not learning ways to control others. No. Boundaries are you knowing your own limits and you having a plan to protect yourself from harm/danger/wrong/sin/etc.
Boundaries of protection. Not boundaries of control.

An interesting discussion (2007) about Boundaries vs manipulation & control .

If you have abandonment issues, you need to learn how to maintain boundaries while self-soothing your anxieties about abandonment. This is very empowering.

It's far far better to desire your wayward spouse to return to the marriage than it is to need that wayward spouse return to the marriage. Here is a link to a very helpful description of FEAR of ABANDONMENT .

Even if this marriage does not survive, you will.

In addition to Pep's excellent advice here is another good read.

False Recovery-Need Voices of Experience

It's better to educate yourself beforehand. One of the biggest mistake we see here on MB is when a BS leaves Plan B too soon. They "listen" to their WS's words instead of looking at their actions (meeting all conditions that are laid out in their PBL).

I am having a hard time today. I guess I am feeling frustrated and unfairly treated. He has run off, and I am hurt and angry that he is openly ramping up to people that I am this terrible person. I want to talk to him and make him stop doing it, make him stop being so vile and evil.

I am sitting here, though and just trying to see the big picture. Obviously breaking NC to slap him around ( if I could even find him) is not going to help me, will just give him more ammunition to hold up as "evidence" of my instability, and I guess if there is a tiny chance that there could be a recovering, I will push that farther away too.

I read the link to the abandonment posting. YES. That is exactly what has happened. I was so scared. He has become a roaring monster as a result. Every time he is in the slightest offended, he creates a scene of him saying "I finally am giving up on YOU!" and dramatically walking away.

What is wrong with this man? On one hand I find it all extremely upsetting, on the other, where is his dignity and pride? Even more, how can he not look at himself and SEE how utterly entitled, vain, and vindictive and dishonest he is appearing. I am not the only one seeing him do these things?

Ok.. vent aside.

I read some of the boundries thread. This is something I have been working very hard on for about 8 months. I mean on purpose hard. the crux of it in the middle is the abandonment fear. He jerks me around, declaring he is LEAVING and divorcing me, he GIVES UP, and I start freaking out. He will suddenly snap and do it. It's like you are talking to him, thinking you are getting somewhere in the discussion, suddenly he says something to the effect of "I am done with you!" and you are kind of left in shock and pain and "where did that come from all of a sudden."



I am upset, but believe I can stay in plan B and work to re-direct myself. I admit that right now, I feel zero optimism. His sister, who has been a real friend to me over time, called me and said he had been back to his mother's. He said he was going to go somewhere to stay where I (me!) couldn't find him, because he feels I am degrading mentally and will escalate an attack on him and he is tired of my out of control behaviors.

What do I do with that? Is that abandonment, meant to push that button and trigger a response from me?

Tighten up your plan B.

You should not be hearing any "reports" about what WH is saying/doing/blogging/smoking/eating/seeing ..... WH has landed on the dark side of the moon and you do not know anything about the dark side.

What WH says about you is none of your business.

YES!!

Tell your SIL "please don't tell me anything about WH. It's too painful to hear and I need to heal from his abuse"

Plan B is to help you heal and protect whatever LB balance you may have for him remaining.

ok, I will tell her that.

Is this sort of reaction and behavior common to WW partners? Or am I just the lucky girl experiencing a wierd variation? I am worried he is a sociopath after reading those things on malignant narcissm.

It does not matter.

Because I am in Plan B and am to focus on myself and not him?

Sorry to tell you but this is very common actions from a wayward.

Actually some wayward wives can be worse. We've had WWs claim false abuse charges and have seen many innocent BHs be thrown in jail. Some BHs have been falsely charged with abuse towards their children and go years fighting a huge, expensive court battle to be able to see their children. Also some false charges of rape, and lifelong STDs and many more sad, sad stories.

One thing is very clear all waywards are cruel and behave like they've been abducted by aliens.

Here are some more good reads.

Never Take the Word of a Wayward
The Art of War by Sun Tzu

Another good read.
Notable Posts

100% yes.

I think Plan B will help me, but I don't think this is going to end with us staying together. It's a relief to get validation that I don't deserve the bad treatment, and support to change what I can in myself...but I feel like he would rather die than behave to me the way the love letter asks. It feels pretty grim.

I know you like to read and so here are some lengthy threads.

These are a just few posters whom are in Plan B. They may have not saved their marriages, but they are DEFINITELY MB successes.
indiegirl's thread
Caracal's thread
Scotland's thread

Here's the beauty of Plan B: you don't HAVE to speculate on outcomes! Plan B is to protect YOU. Choose to NOT speculate. Spend this time taking care of yourself. Your wayward is going to do whatever he's going to do - that is out of your control. How you conduct your life and take care of yourself IS in your control - that's what you need to be concentrating on.

Ok, I will work on not speculating. I guess I am pretty shocked by everything that has happened. It's like stepping back from it is putting it into some perspective. I feel bad.

If he won't meet your conditions, you are much better off without him. But you don't have to make any decisions now. The longer you are in plan B, the better you will feel.

Has he tried to contact your IM?

He hasn't tried to contact my IM. I expect that he will do what he told his sister: hide from me.

Or at least put on a good show of it. For who's benefit I don't know. He has been randomly erratic lately.

He has this whole thing going for the last 6 months in particular that I am unbalanced. Since I went on anxiety meds. Suddenly everytime I am upset at what he is doing, it is because I am mentally ill. He's been throwing that in my face a lot.

As a sidenote, I went off the meds 2 weeks ago. I haven't had any strong panic attacks since he ran off in early April.

Don't listen to his fog babble. He wants everyone to think he left the marriage because "you're unbalanced" and not because of the affairs.

You're better than this, my friend.

Dr. Harley actually recommends ADs and/or anti-anxiety meds when Betrayed spouses are going through this trying time. It's one of the most painful time of people's lives.

Dr. Harley has had clients tell him, their spouses affair was more painful then losing a child or rape.
Steps to Recover from an Affair

It has been the most emotionally and spiritually painful experience I have had. the duration of it, the intensity, the fight and struggle to stay calm, to not let someone force a fake reality on me. The strain of it was what led me to the anti anxiety meds.

I was getting so upset, I was desperate to stop my own upset, or at least be calm enough to be able to slow down my reactions enough that I wouldn't haev the panic attacks and freak out and end up firing off all over. He INSISTS that this is the problem is the marriage: my reactions. So I tried to make them stop so I could keep the marriage and the person I still love even though he has been awful.

Big panic attacks stopped when he left and for once in forever I was able to not chase after him or say a word to him for 3 weeks before he escalated his actions that he knows upset enough that I tried to talk to him. Then he very deliberately pretended I wasn't even there.

What an ugly mentality to have. When he finally acknowledged me, he simply took the opportunity to tell me how selfish and insane I am and how he doesn't want to be around me because I hurt other people on purpose.

I have my sad little boundry that makes me feel safer: I don't talk to people when they are treating me like that.

Which pretty much means I don't have to talk to an abuser. Which is ok with me. Some part of me really wants to tell him how crap I think he is being.

My IM just contacted me. They say he contacted them and he is expressing sadness and says he has let everyone down. He accepts he has been wrong.

That seems a little fast. I believe he feels bad, but I don't hear anything about his willingness to take steps at reparation.

Please tell your IM this:

Dear IM, please respond back to Atlanta's husband and ask if he is willing to meet all of her conditions. It is yes or no. Her conditions are not negotiable. Be very brief and concise so you are not engaging in a war of words. Just say: Are you willing to meet all of Atlanta's conditions? Have you quit your job?

He will probably come back with some fogbabble but the key thing is yes or no. One of the conditions is quitting his job and agreeing to never be in contact with the OW again. Has he met that condition?

When you are assured he has met all conditions, then you can email Atlanta and let her know. But please don't email Atlanta any of your communications with him. If he does meet all of her conditions, then you can email her and say, he is willing to meet all of your conditions.

Melodylane

And Atlanta, if he quits his job and agrees to all conditions, you can MEET with him and see for yourself if he is really is serious. He may not be. Usually, they only want to test you to see how serious you are. And when you meet with your husband, I will give you a list of things that have to happen in order to recover your marriage. It is part of the recovery plan.

That is a very scary thing to live in an environment where your reality is stolen. shudder. I was raised in this kind of atmosphere by an atheist, feminazi, alcoholic. Very dysfunctional. So I know what you mean.

Atlanta, in order for your marriage to recover, certain things have to happen. He has to end all contact with his OW for life, tell you the entire truth about his affair and pass a polygraph. He needs to send skanky a no contact letter where he admits his affair. He needs to write out the details of the affair so it can be sent to her husband.

He also has to affair proof your marriage so this never ever happens again, such as eliminating any opposite sex friendships and making his life completely transparent to you, ie: cellphone passwords and email accounts, etc.

The next step is to join Marriage Buiilders and go through the program. This will give you both better skills that will eliminate the manipulation and gaslighting that has occurred.

All of the above things can be discussed AFTER he meets the conditions in your letter.

I have major doubts. I know him and I have seen this sort of thing something like ONCE in the time I have known him. On one hand it's awesome to finally see some remorse and grief for the hurt he has caused, on the other hand I don't trust it. I don't believe he will agree to quit his job. I think he is caught up in feeling bad and is not thinking very much beyond that.
I asked my IM to ask him if he is ready to do as I have asked.

Will let you know what he says when I hear back.

I think all BW/BS have their reality stolen. I mean look how long you live your life with these deceptions going on. Some people never know for years and years. They probably look back and think, but I was happy, or how fake it all was and real life stolen, leaving what? It's like a big bite taken out of who and what you are. Aren't we partly at least, a product of our life experience, and if your life was faked to you by someone, then they took you from yourself. It made me lose faith in who I am.

The problem with wayward spouse "remorse" is that it rarely involves making actual amends to the betrayed spouse and recovering the marriage. What really counts are actions, not talk. But it sounds like you GET that.

I get it. And I am feeling very low right now, because my experience is that I am the last person he will make big changes for or try to make feel better about things.

It makes me sad that you have lived in such a marriage for such a long time. You should be the most important person in your husband's life.

Yes, you should.

Prepare yourself for all sorts of pressure. You've finally stopped buying his excuses. That's terribly bothersome and upsetting for someone who likes cake, and lots of it.

The best thing for you is to go DARK. He must display ACTIONS: words are not enough.

I know you're sad, Atlanta. Hang in there. Things will get better, one way or another.

I wish I were the most important person. He seems to be confused about who is supposed to matter to him most at this point.

You are beginning to experience the grieving process. Let it happen, it is healthy. Your brain has to remap all your experiences over the last five years and make sense of them in the light of new information. That is a heavy load and you need to respect it and give yourself time. Lots of quiet peaceful time.

Freakin' OUCH! I wish I hadn't read that at work. I know that feeling all too well. I don't have any advice for you, just some sympathy, for what it's worth.

I have some advice:

It's the affairland that is fake, not your reality. You are not the one that has been living a lie. The most you are guilty of is trusting someone who you loved. The Lord was guilty of that when we first fell into sin. It is not a shameful thing for you.

By the way, that is exactly how it feels to be raised in an alcoholic home. It feels like you are in the FUN house at the carnival.

My father, the alocoholic, created so much drama and upset, that I remember events from the age of about 3. He liked alcohol, pills, guns and loose women.

So, hugs to you Melody, I know what it is like when someone let's than kind of crazy out. My mother was proud and it took her 9 years to leave. She went NC until I was 17.

My IM informs me that my husband has been in contact, she says he is in a state of self pity and apathy, but otherwise is not offering a productive response.

I am afraid he will simply go occupy himself and this will slide along forever. It is what I have seen him do in the past. I don't expect any great demonstrations of love from him in terms of his actions, because he really does tend to mope along, punctuated by months of frantic actions, then he wears out on it and it's back to apathy. I do think everyone is tired of it all right now.

I keep wondering how long until his ex wife regains her equilibrium and comes in to start trying to pressure him around. She says she doesn't want him anymore, but I don't believe her.

I don't believe any of them.

Other than that, no new except I am having a lot sadness myself.

AJose, I feel for you. I always want my tears to be private, too.

Self care .... What are you doing? Please elaborate.

Here's the Plan B rule (I just invented) .... Every time you write something, (wondering & speculating & analyzing) about your lost wayward, you must write an equal amount of time about your acts of self-soothing, self-care, and how you intend to protect yourself.

What can you do for yourself today?

As long as you keep fearing and wondering about what he is doing or thinking, you allow him to still be in your life. And you allow him that much control over you.

oh, sorry but you are funny, Pepper,and made me laugh. It's a good idea, so I am not just coming here venting and feeling sad.

So for this post...today I am planting flowers. I really love pansies and sunflowers, so I am planting pansies. Purple ones!

I am preparing my garden areas for seeds and more flowers.

It's a peaceful meditative process and I feel happy when I do it.

I just finished some garden puttering-around myownself.
I am training a Fuji apple tree to grow as an espalier against the fence.
I like to go out and coax the branches in certain directions.
I have a Meyer lemon tree thriving in a half oak barrel. I am trimming it to take on a pretty round-ish shape. I love Meyer lemons. This year I started an above ground vegetable garden. Why above ground? Because of Beanie, our desert tortoise, who demolished my efforts last time I grew veggies at dirt level. This morning I found a bunch of ladybugs on my pole beans, they volunteered to help me. I have a Cecile Brunner climbing rose that I am coaxing to arc over (from the fence where it is tethered to grow horizontally) to the old metal clothes line pole that I decided to keep as some wacky garden sculpture. Next year it will look awesome. A little crazy, but in a pink way, which is always good.

My sunflowers did not make it
But, I have a lovely planter of pansies on my deck. Purple & pink in a cobalt blue container.

I have 4 different tomato plants that I am hoping become major producers.

It sounds really lovely. I remember going west once and the fields in South Dakota in August were full of mature sunflowers.They are always so happy looking.

Nothing much happened here today, except I feel angry at him. I was leaving work and carrying out a box of things to my car to take over to the other office across town and I saw him walking across the far end of the parking lot. She was walking behind him about 20 feet and was on her cell phone. I have no idea if had been talking to her, but the very idea and knowing he will talk to her at work and talk to her regardless of how "sorry" he is because of the job.

Well. I was steamed and got out of there fast. Then after work did my pansies. And I know you guys will probably say who cares what he is doing and to pay attention to me, but this is the kind of thing that typically sets me off and reminds me of every unkind way he has treated me. I was shaking (panic, hurt, anger I guess) as I was driving off. I just wanted to tell him AGAIN how bad I feel and how I feel uncared for and demand to know why he keeps putting me through this. Why does this man feel SO entitled to disregard what it does to me?

That's what I want him to explain to me.

But here I am. It is after midnight and I will go to bed instead and I am so tired of feeling this sick despair. I wish I could pull it out of me. I am worn out.

Tomorrow, getting my slr camera out and I am going to take macro shots of the little flowers blooming on the tree out side of the house. I love photography and in particular macro photography, so many tiny little worlds hardly anyone is seeing and I like to take photos of them.

I wish he cared that I am not talking to him. Cared enough, I mean.

Oh, Atlanta, you shouldn't have had to see that ((hug))
This is why your Plan B is going to need to be air tight. Just seeing him hurt you so bad.

You don't deserve this. It's not fair. We're here for you, okay?


I LOVE macro photography, too. It has to be one of my favorites to shoot. Share some of your pics tomorrow!

So sorry you had to see that.

How can we tighten up your Plan B, so you won't have to deal with this?

How is transferring to another building in the company coming along?

Or the idea of working from home?

I probably won't see that again.

The box of things to the car on my way out was my stuff from the office to go work at the other office. I am told I can work from home as long as I come in for meetings or I can just be in the other office or the office I began at. They don't care as long as I give the usual results. My boss is an awesome lady. I used to work with her, years ago, as an office mate and we really liked each other then.

This is one of the macros I took. These white flowers are actually only about 1/4 inch across.

http://i.imgur.com/QB7ldTf.jpg

I am going to take a half day off this afternoon and go to Barnes and Noble and pick up some of the books recommended here if I can find them.. and something extra that I have been wanting but kind of forgot about because I was busy being miserable and anxious.

Beautiful pic !!!
Thanks for sharing.
Just don't "macro" my skin.
*shudders* <~~~ a photography pun .... get it? huh? get it?

Oh, that's beautiful!

snicker

Thank you for that!

I have a lot of those types of photos. flowers and little insects.

Anyway my IM heard from him.

He is making a counter offer.

Apparantly he had a loud, public falling out with his co-worker and she has put in for a transfer, vowing not to talk to him again or work with him again unless the company forces her to.

His offer is he gets to keep his job. He was uncomplimentary about his co-worker. He is sorry he messed up so badly. He did not respond to the request to have access to his accounts, expect he pointed out what difference does it make if I do, because if he really wanted to cheat, etc, he could do it without anyone knowing it. I heard that before.

I am not impressed. In fact I feel angry and hurt. The part of me that wants to trade off myself in order to have him close to me is really tiny at this point. My reaction is to have an AO at him. I have not responded to my IM on it, yet. I wanted to touch base with you guys. My instinct is to ignore, or tell him no deal.

I don't like the attitude that he can come to me with what I feel is a hurtful comment "hey Atlanta I could cheat any time and you would never know it!"

I would know it. I would know it after wasting more of my valuable life, and more of my feelings and the investment of my assets into this person who is not wise enough to offer support and a pledge to make things right for what he has been doing and keeping it right for the future.

Other than that, I am just working today from home. I feel low and tired. I don't know what I feel even like doing for myself, except having some peace.

He's not remorseful or ready to return to you. Keep in the forefront your conditions for recovery of this marriage:

1.) No contact for life with the OW
2.) Complete transparency and integrated life
3.) Agree to work with you in a program of recovery that will restore your marriage to better than pre-A.

Anything less is just playing games with your life, as you know.

His reply was very flippant. Your IM should filter this kind of babble out. Remind your IM of your conditions and tell her to make sure he agrees to all of them before passing along any message from him regarding returning to you.

Edited to add that my husband literally got down on his knees before me and pleaded with me not to leave him. He readily agreed to all of my conditions and now we have a recovered marriage. For me, anything less was not enough.

Ok, I will remind her, and ask her to simply respond to him that I am not able to work with him until he agrees to my conditions.

I think at least the IM and myself can do this properly.

He doesn't get to.

You've got pretty good instincts.

DITTO

Agree with LongWay, Prisca & Prisca.

Atlanta, you seem so much better from when you arrived and you've only been in PB for a short time.

PB just gets better and better and you will not believe that you lived so long with so much turmoil and drama in your life.

Keep it up!!!

WWH has gotton into a big argument with that other guy there who the co worker woman was carrying on with. I guess her OTHER affair partner ( if that is what they have all been doing) decided to be a whiteknighter and tell my husband where the bear poops in the buckwheat.

This has led to an escalation and my husband put in for a job transfer and is taking a leave of absence, then some vacation. He said he has had it with the whole mess.

He is now able to agree fully to my requests, including the job change, and asks if I will consider beginning a reconciliation in about a week when he has some time to calm himself and look over MB material, including reading a few books, listening to MB radio.

I don't know what to say. Am I splitting hairs to say that I would have preferred that he found clarity calmly, and then made his choices in a calm state of mind?

I also now feel very anxious and am upset at this drama and upheaval. Apparantly the other guy took a swing at him and they got into a scuffle.

I have not responded through the IM yet.

Advise me please.

I would have IM say

I will let Atlanta14 know when you are ready to meet her requirements for reconciliation.

Meanwhile, she will continue with things as they are for the present time.

Nothing like a truth tsunami, is there?


poor baby


IMHO - WH should be instructed to CALL the coaching center (IM can give him the phone #) and to PAY FOR his first coaching session. After his first session, you will consider reconciliation.


This is unimportant. What is most important is what will he do NOW? Without whining.


Adultery is ugly. People get into physical altercations, and sometimes they kill each other !!!!


IM gives WH the MB coaching phone #.

Your best bet.
Not as a punishment for WH. No, Not at all. Your WH will be better off if he calls. He will receive instructions to help him be a willing recovery partner.

x2

Agreed. Don't rush the reconciliation, Atlanta. You've got all the time in the world.

I feel really uncomfortable about it all. I guess my head kind of didn't think much would happen for weeks and weeks.

It's like now he has no one else and me, the girl he told a week ago that he didn't want to deal with since I am so selfish, dangerous, aggressive, and I hurt other people.. somehow was cured of it enough that he can deal with me?

I think maybe I have lost my respect for him. Almost completely.

I will take a break on it tonight and think what to respond, exactly tomorrow.

Well, he hasn't exactly been behaving respectably, has he?

Very good idea. Take your time.

I understand. This was a big deal for me too. I purposely put my WH "to the test", and it was his last chance to regain any of my respect. I gave him about 15 seconds to make up his mind. This was before MB was ever around, so I was making stuff up as I went.

I'm a pretty determined person, when the rubber meets the road.

You are not required to make an effort, but I will encourage you to set the bar high, and then be observant about how your WH chooses to deal with you requiring him to show high standards.

Let's not forget that your WH had an affair with his ex wife early in your marriage and fathered a child with her all while making you feel nuts for being upset by it.

Your WH is a serial cheater, mentally abusive and more.

I hope you will NOT take him back so quick. He needs to earn his stripes. Also, in plan b you shouldn't be privy to what he's doing. You need to distract yourself from him and focus on your healing.

Who is telling you these stories about the blow up on the job? Hearing this stuff is NOT helpful for you right now and who knows what's really true.

Tell your IM that only pertinent information is to be shared. You don't want to know about what he's eating for breakfast and how he feels about it.

He needs to change jobs and have a minimum of 6 months of coaching with MB (in my opinion) before you should even consider speaking to him.

Sorry, but this is one marriage I think should be dissolved and dissolved soon. You've been abused by this man horribly and hes still trying from afar. Tune him out!

I would be tempted to respond that, after he takes his week, YOU will then take a week to calm yourself, and maybe begin considering it then.

I have a lot of trouble believing his sudden turnaround. The week of bachelorhood is a quiet red flag to me that he's not serious, and your emotional ambivalence is a barometer that seems to be confirming it.

I would not take him back unless he is DESPERATE to have you back NOW. In the meantime, take your time.

Ask Pepperband to get you a link to the false recoveries thread. It will give you some good reading in the meantime.

Here is the link

I am having panic again. Edging on panic attack. I can feel it in my chest. This is all going too fast for me. I think he is mentally ill or something.

My IM passed it along, she meant well and wanted to warn me. One thing she said, which I hadn't really thought about when she told me, was he kept saying his woman co-worker had betrayed him and involved the other guy there. I reminded her to stick to asking him if he will agree or not. Yes or no.

So honestly, I am afraid, because I feel like a big can of worms is about to be opened and I am not sure I can handle it.

Atlanta did you send your IM, the IM training school link? If you have and she still can't protect you from all that useless garbage info, you need a new IM.

Hey - your IM needs to do a better job of screening. Please let her know. Zero info except agreement to your conditions. Your panic attacks (note>>>I have them too for other reasons) are triggered by trauma or any little thing. Remove the triggers as best you can...and you can. Talk to your IM and clean this up, OK? You hear/know NOTHING except that WH has 100% agreed to your conditions. Until then, you hear nothing, notta, no word, no rumor.

x 2

Ok, I will send the link and we will crack down on the information. Day was wasted after I heard this stuff because I am so agitated. Thank you surfer88 you know exactly how it is :((

What your IM needs to tell you is that he is not serious. If he said this, he is not serious about your marriage. He is in mourning over losing his OW. That doesn't mean he is ready to commit to your marriage. The above should be a knock out factor. He is not serious and he is not ready.

I agree. I was thinking about that a lot. I don't really want to hear how offended he is over her siding with the other guy and running off.

He acts like all of this and what it implies shouldn't bother me.

Is your IM going to be able to avoid passing on such information to you in the future? The whole point to an IM is to keep you safe from this emotional turmoil. You cannot keep taking these blows.

My IM is up to speed.


Nothing really happened today, except I worked. I thought about him some, but mostly I felt kind of numb in the way I felt before with new discoveries. I am shocked by his actions and I don't believe he is in control of himself. It's not something that tends to generate hope due the length of time this behavior has been going on.

I had lunch with my mom. I am always happy to see her.

Atlanta, got up to speed on your situation. I agree, he is feeling lonely and looking for something to make him feel better. You drew a line in the sand taking the control away from him. What will make him feel better is to get the control back. He will get the control back by mentally abusing you some more. Please don't fall for it.

I think if he ever agrees to ALL of your conditions, he should give you his confession about affair(s) to you THROUGH your IM, and then do the polygraph, getting you the results THROUGH your IM BEFORE you break plan B.

If he is TRULY agreeing to all of your conditions, every single one that he can do/give you without you talking or seeing him, he will do. If he won't then he isn't willing to meet them, he is only saying he is.

He may hope that he can get close enough to once again get you to believe that it is your fault. It is not your fault at all. The emotional/mental abuse you describe it ghastly. I think you held up remarkably well through the abuse. He may not have physically abused you, but he did abuse you. The abuse you endured may actually be worse than physical abuse.

BTW, your picture is beautiful. And you call yourself an amateur photographer?

Atlanta, please go to your family doctor to discuss getting medication or therapy to help you with these panic attacks.

Another thought/ possibly better: talk to your ob/gyn. After my D-Day I went to my ob/gyn to be tested for STDs and explained to him why. WOW, was THAT cathartic! He'd heard the same thing many times before, from other patients ( )He immediately tested me AND suggested an anti-depressant to relieve my depression and anxiety.

I second this.

Also Dr. H Recommends it.
What are Plan A and Plan B?

I don't think he is completely serious at this time. I guess I know him pretty well. He typically refuses to make a straight committement to much of anything because he usually likes to go "back" and re-engage. So I guess it is up to him if he wants to pull it together and forget about his co worker friend. I haven't heard anymore.


I just quit medication for the panic attacks. I am ok today. I hate being on the meds because I am extremely sensitive to them and they really put me into a numbed out/ apathetic state.

I have found a therapist who specializes in narcissistic abuse. I feel I am getting detachment from some things. Enough that I am understanding that staying closely engaged under these conditions is absolutely the wrong thing to be doing.

I can go in and get checked out. I hadn't really thought about that this time around This stuff is endless.

I am an amateur photographer. I have a lovely camera, which does all the work. :p

The camera can only do so much. What makes a photographer is vision and composition.

I appreciate the kind words, thank you.

I am finding there are holes in the plan.

Email. How do I keep him out and let in the people I need to be letting in. All he did was get a different email address and mailed. I read the words "your reacting in an unstable way again" and I knew it was him, so I closed it. It is literally painful to read the word "unstable". I have heard it so many times from me reacting upset to his actions.

I don't actually know why he thinks someone is unstable because they get upset at being cheated on, etc. And it seems to be a double standard that he can push some guy around literally, but I am the unstable one.

Not that I feel it is a competition or that anyone is entitled to out of control over reactions. But, please : context matters.

At least to me.

1AM and I wanted to be to sleep earlier. But an email and I get upset and 3 hours pass before I know it. Wasted. I am so tired of being judged and punished. I doubt he will "get it" for real any time soon.

Is it giving up too easily if I divorce him now?

No.

He has been, and still is so full of disrespect for you and he's willing to work hard to give you some more.

Get a new email address, transfer all the contacts you want to keep, change your email address for any subscriptions and online accounts you have. If you haven't changed your phone number, do that, too. There's information here about how to implement Plan B very tight.

Straight from indiegirl's by-line : http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2482787#Post2482787

He calls you unstable as a way to keep you off balance. He knows how it affects you. It is a way to keep you from objecting to his abuse. You did the right thing in deleting the email. As you can see, he is not remotely serious about ending his abuse and committing to your marriage.

You can get divorced any time you choose. If I were in your shoes, I would file for divorce and if he made a dramatic and radical change in his approach to being a husband, you can consider dropping the divorce. That way, you win either way.

I am sorry you had to see his email. Do you see how he shakes you up when he gets through?

Atlanta, you can kill two birds with one stone. Set up a new email address completely and only give it to people you want to communicate with for the next few months. This will keep him out and also help get rid of all the spam email.

It's the work thing. We both work at the same company. I can talk to someone there. I honestly don't believe he really means to quit that job. The email account was set up through work. I hope the IT guy there can help me, maybe he knows a way to redirect or something.

I see how he shakes me up.

Can you see now how "serious" he really was when he said all this last week? He is not leaving the job and is back to calling you "unstable" when you stand up to him. I am sure that email he sent you was another brow beating designed to bully you back into control.

I understand him. He felt so far down that he was even willing to stop beating me up for a bit ( condemning me for being upset with him) and make a gesture to agree to treat me right.

Now he has probably been talking to a few of his friends, and he has gotton over the shock of his own actions and he doesn't feel vulnerable enough to follow through. Cause, hey, he's been doing what he wants at me and to me for years and years.

Obviously there is no benefit to me to crack because all it does is look like I am saying what he does is ok. It's not ok.

What have I given him in terms of time to consider his position, really? A week or so? I guess I am mainly reacting off of being called unstable. It's ticking me off to have that pulled out and slung at me. It makes me want to engage with him, it's like a nasty itch.

I guess because this seems so entrenched, I have lost faith in him changing his feelings.

Will talk to divorce attorney. It's a 90 day process in my state.

I think this is your best strategy and I will tell you why. I don't think he really believes yet that you are serious. He thinks you will eventually break and come back begging. If you file for divorce, you will send him the clear message that you are serious. That might be the only thing that will convince him you are serious and motivate him to change.

If he doesn't commit to making radical changes in that 90 days time, you will be divorced, which would be the best outcome here. If he doesn't change, divorce would be the definition of success.

So sorry he got through to you, Atlanta
I think you're on the right track with divorce.

Your IT dept can issue you a new email address.

I think the email was an unintended favor to you. Here's why.

He was sneaking up to get close to you, with his "I'm ready to meet your conditions" disguise. But he forgot to change his dirty old "I think you're unstable" shoes. The disguise wasn't very convincing, but just good enough to make you hesitate to slam the door.

Then you got a look at those nasty old shoes. Bam! Illusion gone! You would know those shoes anywhere after all the times he's kicked you with them.

I was scared for you when it sounded like he might be able to get a toe in the door. I'm glad he showed his @@@, even though it isn't pretty. It's tattooed with his true colors.

FILE, FILE FILE!

I know what he is saying about the instability.

Basically after I found out about the affair, the lies, the baby.. and these huge discoveries were dragged out for a couple of years... to me they were extremely traumatic. So what I would do is try to firmly make clear to him "ok, you screwed up. BAD".
Then I would insist that he install boundries. One of the primary ones was he was to back off from this co worker. He refused. He was more concerned about how I was making him look, than he was about how he looked to ME.

So I became really hurt and frustrated. He pass the blame to me for why he had the affair. In reality I know it's on him.

At the point of trying to get him to stop blaming me and to sto trying to force me to make it up to HIM, I began to become so hurt and enraged that I began to lose control of myself. which let to AO and extremely unkind words from me.

So then he was totally unwilling to address affair related things because I was so upset and "attacking" him. He said this really scared him. The AO and attacking.

So then it became all about my AO. So even if I said, ok husband, I totally take on that we can't have a productive discussion if I am raging... so I stopped. However he continued to make me to blame for everything and flat out flaunted that he was going to continue his friendship with his co-worker.

It simply has become this endless cycle of I am to blame, I am dangerous, he is scare of me, and I am the one who HAS to make it all up to him before he will feel like he is safe enough to truely reconcile with me.

From one angle I "get" it. But really I also feel that he is the main offender here and how LONG do I have to prove I am SAFE while he continues the hurtful and provocative behavior with his co worker?

Maybe my head and heart are build wrong. From my view, ok, I stop the outbursts and make it safe to talk. BUT, while I am doing that why should he be still hurting me, essentially placing his feelings for HER over ME?

He insists their friendship was NEVER romantic. I have a hard time believing that is he is beating up another man over her.

He always just insists he doesn't have those feelings for her. And he says if I want him to focus on me rather than her, then I need to be "calm and strong".

So basically I am so "unstable" from what he is done because he looks like he is doing more of it. And now he tells me that no matter what has happened to me or what he has done, I am WRONG to act and speak so vilely and he basically is so terrified of my rages that he gives up and doesn't want to deal with me.

I am not sure what the guy actually wants except to FORCE me to accept responsibility for what he did and to break me down completely by making me agree that I messed it up and I need to earn HIM back.

Well I don't mind not AO and I can speak respectfully. But I need a partner who isn't undermining me and refusing to make effort when I am clearly stepping up.

I feel sick from this. and I want to have an AO and kick his behind. Literally.

I am still silent. I don't know what to do with the anger and pain I feel. Yesterday I sat and held my own self. Inside my chest I felt this awful pain. It was so intense it was physical. I went about my day as I could and it literally felt like I had an open wound that was hurting so much.

Today is better.

Were you able to talk to an attorney?

He's gaslighting you.

And you are not unstable. You are feeling all the hurt again because one lousy subject line got through. Have you fixed your email breach?

Do I misunderstand that you are in Plan B?

And if he was truly terrified of your rages, he wouldn't be trying to goad you into a new one by breaking your Plan B with such a blatant disrespectful judgement. Does not compute.

I am in plan B.

I made an appointment for later this week. Thursday.
Feel blah and not interested in much atm.

Talked to IT guy, set up new email account for the company and a gmail account for people I typically am in contact there.

I always wonder why he keeps coming back around when I am so terrible. I have heard judgements like this a over and over. I feel helpless against them. Then I really do get upset and make them come true. Then he says, there you are proving me right! Then he says he is giving up hope on me, he doesn't want to deal with someone like me and we are done.

Well I figured out the best way to avoid this verification is to leave. I am slow to learn, I guess, because often I haven't stepped away before I get upset. I have learned a lot about boundries in the past few months.

I think the holes are plugged. I haven't heard anything since the last mail got through. No one has said a word to me about what he is up to.

This is great. You are doing great.

He has agreed to things. I don't feel I love him anymore. I feel obligated, but I keep thinking about how he treated me and I don't think I can forgive him.

Not sure if this is a temporary feeling, or if since I have had some calm my feelings are processing. Basically I just want to tell him he sucks and to leave and never come back. At the same time I feel ... obligation.

I keep feeling that even if he never hurts me again, how can I get over what he has already done? Is this resentment?

Ideas, anyone?

Atlanta, what is the current situation? You can recover if he makes a RADICAL change in his approach to being a husband. VERSUS a check the box exercise to get back in the door. I would never want to be married to a man like your husband. But people can change.

What has he changed?

You are not obligated to be abused by anyone.

He accepted a job in a different company, he got a therapist. He has asked me what else I would like him to be doing other than what I already asked.

He has had this weird thing with social sites where ( in the past) he refused to add me because his ex wife would throw some massive tantrum. He added me and has refused to acknowledge her complaints. He has enforced visitation by taking his children on his custody time to a neutral place, his mother's, instead of caving and going to visit them at his ex's. He has apologized for his attitude, his actions, the hurt he caused. He claims no contact with the office co-worker.

That is in addition to the requests made prior to this.

He asked me what else he can do, but I am realizing how I don't ask anything because before this, he made me feel so worthless and it was clear to me that he would fight to the end of everything if I said I wanted something.

With that woman gone, suddenly he is back to acting like who he was when I met him.

It confuses me and I keep thinking why did he have to wait until everything good was rubbed out before he decided to change things.

Also I told him that I am not willing to accept poor treatment anymore. He can do as he likes, but if he makes damaging choices, I cannot be in a marriage with him anymore. And I feel absolutely able to enforce this boundry. He knows I mean it. I will leave and divorce.

No one would fault you if you decided to leave this marriage. Personally, I would end the marriage because there is not much to save in a marriage with so many affairs in such a short period of time. Its not like he has ever made you happy.

But if he does change and you follow this program, there is hope.


I would make it a condition that he NEVER EVER have contact with his XW and DELETE all social sites. He can get an intermediary to facilitate any essential communication.

Will he agree to NEVER be in contact with her again? It doesn't sound like it if he has her friended on social sites. A serial cheater has no business on any social networking site.

He has her on one social site.

Everyone else on his page are male friends, me, male co-workers, and family members. He had that woman co-worker, but she is gone now.

Atlanta, I would make it a condition that he NEVER speak to or see her again. PERIOD. He has already had one affair with that hoe. You will never be safe until that happens.

He just needs to delete all social networking sites. A serial cheater has no business whatsoever on one.

Ending contact with all former lovers is a basic extraordinary precaution that is not even negotiable. He has already proven how dangerous this is.


Raise the bar, Atlanta. Don't settle for half measures. Do what it takes to make you safe or get out.

sending you hugs. please know it is not u...it is him. he sounds a lot like my H. i know the trauma you are experiencing.

As I understand this was the list of conditions you gave him and you said he agreed - so why would he still have contact with his XW/OW?

Atlanta, with a WS, you MUST say what you mean and mean what you say. Don't back down from the conditions that you gave him.

What about the poly? This will be important since he is such a gaslighter and since he has had a SSL for your entire marriage. If he is still hiding things, he will remain wayward.

as all of you are pointing out, he agreed, but his ex wife is still there. It's one of the reasons I am sitting here thinking big deal, why bother.

I don't feel like fighting the guy on every thing. I want simple agreement and follow through.

He agreed to the poly, but has yet to set up a session.

I have not agreed to meet him in person and discuss. Will re-inforce the social site requirement, but tbh to people here, I pretty much don't believe at this point he will be honest and upfront over the long haul. I don't know if it is pessimism due to how low I am or if I am just done.

Atlanta, are you back together?

No. I accepted the facebook request but have not talked to him there, I asked to keep communication through email for now and he has respected that. He is at his mother's.
I wanted to talk here about things before I agree to talk in person or anything else.

I don't know if the hurt is MY problem to handle at this point, but everytime I think of him mocking me over the anxiety meds I was taking to DEAL WITH HIS ACTIONS and he KNEW IT, I want to punch him in the face. Everytime I think of how hurt and humiliated I feel over his actions after the baby was found out, I feel so much anger, hurt and disgust if him, I can barely bring myself to the idea of even talking to him again.

Is this something I would get over IF he follows through properly?

I honestly don't know. It would take a long time and he would have to make serious, dramatic changes. Do you really see that happening?

This guy has so much baggage that I would cut my losses and move on if I were in your shoes. You will always have to deal with the presence of his OC and worry about his XW. It might be much easier in the short term and long term to just get out now and find someone who could make you happy. Its not like you have children together.

This is worse than physical assault, IMO.

I agree with Melody. I would cut my losses and divorce him. If he's willing to make radical changes, and they will have to be radical, he will pursue that without you having to pull him along.

You shouldn't have to pull him along.

He has written to say that he felt driven away from me due my AO. He says it would be nice to have a conversation where I stay calm when the I am upset.

I never got upset with him until it was clear he was lying to me and cheating and playing mind games.

I didn't know what to do. I tried to talk and reason and he would hang up on me, walk out, disappear, refuse to respond. And I eventually would get upset over those antics and go into panic and raging.

I asked him what kind of response did he expect from me when I found I had been cheated on, a hidden baby appearing out of nowhere and all the other things.

What should my response have been? Calm. Was everyone here all nice and calm about it?

My mistake was being dumb and thinking I could take it and stay calm, because I did start out calm.

He tells me now that only way through it is me staying calm.

He wants us to be all nice and calm and marriage builder methods. That is great.

Except we have a problem. I am so hurt and angry and utterly baffled at his essentially murdering my life.. and now he gets his chance to be a better man.. he is relieved to do it.

What do I do with my hurt and anger. I am just really starting to feel it. I was numbed out before. In shock, just holding on day to day. I think he is getting off easy.

I don't get any sense at all that he has learned any humility. He is in no position to place conditions. He should be grovelling and apologising and pleading and grateful that you are willing to even give him 5 minutes of your time to listen to what he is going to do to try to convince you to stay in the marriage.

You are right to be outraged, not just at what he has done but also that he is still trying to blame you for his horrible cruel behavior.

He should get counselling on how to be a better husband with one of the Harleys. If they can't set him straight, no one can.

Dr Harley does not suggest staying in a marriage where you are upset all the time because you are being abused. He suggests SEPARATION. That is the MB solution. Dr Harley would suggest that you stay separated until he changes the behavior that upset you. Has he made a radical change in his behavior?

Will he stop upsetting you?

I can't tell if he made a radical change. I don't know if he is simply trying to tell me the condition he felt at that time that at the time he felt justified his actions in order to communicate to me something or if this is just further attempts to to deflect responsibility and screw me around.

I can tell you, though, I woke up this morning, and I feel a combination of pain and a desire to tear him to pieces and tell him what a sick POS I think he is.

So obviously I am not in a state where I can attempt much of anything. I re-read his words and he is focusing on telling me that ME staying calm is the key. Maybe that is something I should be doing but that is NOT the key.

You need to know that you will be upset and will not be able to control your emotions in an abusive relationship. So unless he can stop all the abuse you shouldn't subject yourself to him.

Did you tell him he cant stay married to you if he has any contact with his XW?

Based on the past, the feelings you are going through are very normal. A is the worst possible thing a person can do to someone they are married to.

I too struggled, and still do sometimes, with anger because of all the things you mentioned above. We are 1.5yrs into R after my FWW 9mo A followed by a 9mo FR.

We are following Dr Harley's program. What I can share with you is that there are MANY ups and downs. I have to keep using my head not my feelings to plow through the difficult days.

R is measured in years not days/months. I try not to make any decisions at my lowest lows or highest highs. Being cognizant of the moments and realizing what is going has really helped.

No one can tell you how quickly to heal. No one. Your H CAN do things to ease the pain (follow every detail of MB).

What you can control is You. All LB's are a choice...on both sides.

and his bullcrap starts back up again this morning.

i give up.

he won't do things to ease the pain. as soon as he sees it and I try to talk about it, he invalidates me, tells me I refuse to control myself, then he leaves, hangs up, walks off AFTER making sure I know the real problem is ME. I am not getting that upset until he does. He says it is useless to talk to me when I am venting. I am not venting. I am trying to tell him how I feel and how he is effecting me.

It's not an AO until he shuts me down and leaves and refuses a response. Then it turns into how well he can ignore me and it ramps the upset up so high, I lose control of myself because I am already hurting and in pain. Where do I take it, where do I go with it? I get so upset at these things at this point I don't know what to do with it.

It might be a better idea to write out your complaints in an email. Let him know what he is doing that upsets you.

Ok, I can tell you what he says. He told me he doesn't like my style of complaints. He said today I am just dragging up "sh** from the past".

So basically this is what he wants. He says he can only work with me if I stay calm. He wants the past to be the past. he doesn't want to talk about any of it and we need to move on.

Basically I was triggered this morning. I was cleaning out an old email account and found a mail from his ex wife mocking and laughing at me because she is pregnant. I had confronted him at that time asking if it was true and got this speech about how he cant be with someone who doesn't trust him, and how this mistrust is something he can't help me with because it is in MY HEAD and it is "your fight, honey to overcome it."

So I am immediately dropped into this sudden intense pain and anger over the mind games, the lies, the baby.

So I respond to him that I am not over it. And he comes up with how out of control I am and how he can't talk to me if I don't stay in control. So he wants me to be the bad one for being upset. So I try to talk to him and say look it is REASONABLE to be upset from those things. He stonewalls me calls it dragging up "sh*t from the past" and I feel so much pain and rage that I can't really even talk without doing something HE finds really irritating, which is writing some huge long message about look buster, you did all of these things over and over, hundreds of times, I am doing my best to be calm and sort through it and I want to SORT THROUGH IT instead of every discussion being deflected to how much of a monster I am because I have gotton so upset.

He then disappears. Of course. Without a word. Until he comes back to tell me off for talking so much at him, which HE finds soooo irriating.

Well, I find it irritating to have other children show up out of the blue, for him to have affairs, etc.

he CLAIMS the whole process of recovering anything is being blown apart because I am getting upset and "venting".

I tried to tell him, look, I need you calm, and giving a patient response. I have questions that never get answered. I just basically don't want him to be the rat he has been and I told him his calm and kind response and his patience are really needed.

And he says I am just irritating.

I am pretty upset right now. How can all of this be my fault because I am upset? WHAT do I do with the upset. The constant invalidation and bullying me to shut me down is ramping it up further and is not helping.

You need to get away from him, Atlanta. All he has said here is that his abuse is "your problem" and he won't work to regain your trust. He is not going to stop the abuse, he is telling you that it is your responsibility to deal with it.

There is nothing here to save. Do you see that?

Make him prove it. Tell him to contact Steve Harley himself, and pay for the sessions himself. Tell him to contact the radio show and talk to Dr. Harley about what he needs to do.

Meanwhile, you can continue with a divorce. If he steps up to the plate and makes radical changes, you can always remarry him later if you desire.

You cannot afford to DRAG an abuser through recovery.

He says he will work to regain it and says there is nothing going on now that should be setting me off, so basically he thinks I should stop being upset.

ok, I am not supposed to talk about what he did that caused the upset? I read Dr Harley on the resentment stuff. Am I really never to mention his affairs again? And work in the present?

Melody, I am so destroyed by what he has done. How do I just shut up and never say a thing, I can't help the hurt showing, the feeling of anger, the triggered anxiety and fear.

How do I speak to him about it.

Telling you how you should feel is abusive. It's a disrespectful judgment. Dr. Harley's position is that disrespectful judgments should not be tolerated in marriage.

Your WH is really wayward. You seem to be back in physical or voice contact with him. Look how upset you are again because you're listening to his utter crap.

You should go back into plan B, and this time, don't let him back in until he becomes the guy I described in a previous post - the pleading, grovelling, repentant guy who is desperate to meet your EPs.

Atlanta, protect yourself, dear. You do not deserve to be treated like this.

Why do you and your H continue to hurt each other with LB's?

Atlanta, are you reading my posts? You are dealing with an extremely abusive man and the solution is to stop talking to him at all.

I wish you had spoken to us before you had come out of Plan B. This man was gaslighting you and still having contact with his two OW -- to the point that you were close to having a nervous breakdown. He is still gaslighting and abusing you and he still has contact with one of the OW.

You need to go back to Plan B. Now.

I agree with this, word for word.

Yea I agree too, your hubby is emotionally abusive. Separate with plan b until he makes radical lifestyle changes. His decisions have separated him from his family not yours. Don't let him gaslight you anymore.

I know I sound pathetic. But I am in tears and i feel like this huge balloon of pain is growing in me. I understand that AO are not helpful to discussion.

I feel so hurt.

No, I don't want contact with him.

I worry about you because you have been dealing with this for a very long time with no relief. Your H has had 2 affairs, fathered an OC and is still treating you abusively. Women have nervous breakdowns and suffer post traumatic stress disorder from staying in these situations.

Please, please, please go forward with the divorce. This guy is just trying to pin you back into place with the YOU'RE CRAZY crap that used to work so well.

No one needs to be married this badly.

Shame on him.

What is stopping me is that he is reasonable in a way. everything is fine with him as long as there is calm. but.. he is disrespectful.

I am too upset to be calm to talk to him. because I am clearly upset and freaked out and he is reacting to my upset so he gets sarcastic or rude on the basis that I am attacking him.

And I try not be upset. I was calm until I saw that email from his exwife and it hit me upside the head again. Who do I talk to about how I feel if I am sad or frustrated or something like that mail cuts right into the heart of me and the grief and fear come back.

Am I supposed to never say anything to him when this happens? I resent that. I feel he should sit and listen and offer comfort and explanations. I DON'T think he should be abused by me in the process, but how do I talk to him without the pain and anger showing. Do I just leave?

And I am not ignoring the divorce advice. Or that he is abusing and all of the history being commented about. He refuses to talk about what he actually did. He says I get too upset and he is scared of it because it feels so destructive to him.

You are not pathetic. You have endured gaslighting on a scale that I have not seen for a long time, even on this MB infidelity site, where there is plenty of misery.

You are not pathetic, you are sad, angry, humiliated, and hurt. And with good reason: you trusted someone to love you and treat you with honor and decency and he failed you miserably.

I learned this valuable lesson from this site: you cannot change anyone, you can only control yourself.

You cannot force your WH to do the right thing and while he does not, you must protect yourself. However, you can protect yourself while holding a hand out to your WH via a plan B letter.

Then, it will be up to him to take your hand and meet your very reasonable conditions so that you can have a happy and safe marriage.

In the meantime, live your own life. Be happy. Make more of your beautiful photos. Know that you are important.

Sticking to a dark plan B will give you this freedom.

Agreed

Atlanta, there is nothing reasonable about him.

Abusive spouses like to get their spouses brainwashed into thinking that abuse is "reasonable."

You should not reconcile with him without an acknowledgment from him that YOU ARE NOT THE CAUSE of his demands, disrespect, and anger. You should not tolerate a single instance of demands, disrespect, or anger from him ever again.

This is the problem. You are a perfectly normal, rational, intelligent woman who has been through TOO MUCH. Like I said earlier, Dr Harley does not recommend that women endure more than FOUR WEEKS of this treatment and you have been enduring it for YEARS.

For the sake of your mental and physical health, I IMPLORE you to shut the door. Go into a very dark Plan B and don't see or speak to him for several months. You don't have to make any decisions about divorce today. But you do need to shut him out of your life. Your husband is no closer to being committed to protecting you and is not serious about recovery.

Dr. Harley often suggests separation where abuse has entered the M. He takes a strong stance on both mental and physical abuse.


He often speaks about abuse, AO and LB's on the radio program. He makes a compelling case that the first step in dealing with AO is establishing that no one can MAKE either of you have an AO. It is always a choice by either spouse. Every single time. By recognizing that no one can make anyone have an AO, he has found that this self acceptance is the first step in eliminating them.


Have you read LB's? Long book but very helpful to identify those traits in ourselves and our spouses behaviors.


Dr Harley also discusses how to make conversations safe when talking about difficult topics. You both have to agree to not judge the other person or be disrespectful. As soon as the conversation takes a turn for the worse, either spouse should walk away until emotions have cooled off. He often discusses how people are 'temporarily insane' when they have an AO.


If starting today you both committed to never commit another LB against each other, your relationship would take a drastic turn for the better. Today.

My fear is that she is well beyond the ability to control her AO's because of her long term exposure to abuse. This is why I am strongly urging her to shut this down and go into Plan B for awhile. A person can only take so much abuse before they break down. I think she may be at that point.

But he also makes the point that when a woman is being abused, she needs to get away from the abuser. She has been enduring this for about 3 YEARS and so far has been through 2 affairs AND an OC. Harley would have told her 2 years ago to go into Plan B. Her H is openly and flagrantly still in touch with OW #1. I believe there comes a point when one's psyche is so damaged that their emotions are out of control. I believe she is at that point.

I guess my mistake was in not ending the interaction when he started to explain to me that he had the affair and left me because I was getting so upset at him for having the affair.

He says his belief that I refused to control my upset at him made him flee from me.

I got sucked in trying to point out to him that people are going to be upset and have some strong emotions when they are openly being cheated on.

He says HE at least TRIES to control HIMSELF. And then he said he has learned one thing, "There is no point in trying to talk to you when you are being like this."

What was I actually doing? I was desperately trying to convince him that cheating and having OC who pop out of nowhere kind of would elicit a strong reaction from most people.

He is not interested. He says I am just attacking him and to STOP and he puts me down for loss of control. He tells me that I can complain to him about things, but the way I do it is massively irritation.

Then he leaves the discussion. Doesn't say he is going, doesn't say goodbye. Just leaves. It was instant message.

And I am sitting there feeling jerked around, manipulated, screwed with, invalidated and he disappears and doesn't come back for days sometimes.

That is usually the point where I have AO. Which basically amounts to getting very upset and sending him a huge long email about WHY I am so upset.. because of what he has done. And he says that seriously makes him so mad he is refusing to even address it. English is not his first language so it makes him mad to see the long email.

In principal, 20, I agree with Dr. Harley. I can't talk to my husband about his affair, the OC and the effect it has on me because it makes him MAD and he lashes out at me.

If I may be so bold, it seems you have a yearning to get him to understand you and finally change his mind about how unreasonable he thinks you are. He won't. Let it go and close the door. For your health. Even then, it's going to take some time to get to living your life. Every time you engage with him, you wipe out any of the forward steps you've taken. You'll wait for an eternity before you'd hear him say "I understand your pain and your reaction."

Yes. I wanted him to understand. That is what my LB is to him. I keep thinking if I say it right ( which is the long email) and lay it out how I saw it go down and how I, as a reasonable person who is like most reasonable people, any of us would feel the pain and anger. And as time goes on and on, a reasonable person would become more upset, the damage accrues and I really want him to understand that I am not intentionally and without consideration, "attacking" him. I am simply so upset and reaching higher levels of upset when I am trying to convince him my reaction is one of normal pain in response to traumatic events.

See,I am not having AO all over the place. Is is confined to the discussion from me to him trying to make him see. And he will listen a bit, then invalidate, shut me down.

So HIS argument back is NEVER TRY TO HAVE THIS DISCUSSION because NOTHING ever comes of it, nothing is resolved, to him it is a VENT session and I am deliberately ON PURPOSE, he says making my own self upset. And then how am I helping.

And I sit there, agonized and near speechless because he just shut me down.

I am better at walking away. But if he hangs up on me, and disappears without a word, just that bit of disrespect is like a pin into a balloon. I have asked him NOT to leave like that, just say he needs to go and I respect him on it. I DO.

Sorry I guess I am venting. Just wanted to say basically yes am trying to convince him. I am so sad and tired because these are nearly the worst experiences of my life and it hurts me so much to be told I make them happen to me.

Atlanta, this is so abusive it blows my mind. He is basically just telling you to shut up and say nothing about his affairs and despicable behaviour. Please get out as you have been advised. I couldn't imagine living under those conditions. If he was truly willing to recover the marriage he would be open and honest with you about your past.

I agree. I hope she takes care of herself.

You need to quit debating with him, quit trying to prove it to him, quit trying to get your point across to him, quit trying to get him to understand, quit trying to get him to feel what you are feeling, quit trying to persuade him.

There is only one message to get across, and you MUST get it across with NO WORDS AT ALL:

"I will not live in a marriage where I am abused and neglected."

I'm sure you can figure out how to get this message across with no words.

Atlanta, this is hard, but you need to be honest with yourself so you can strip away an excuse for not taking action.

You did not "get sucked in." Tentacles did not grab you and make you stay. There was no quicksand. There was no giant vacuum.

You chose to have a conversation that you should not have.

Stop talking to him. About anything. Ever.


We already know this. Dr. Harley explains many times on his show that people who live with an abuser almost always become abusive themselves. You have lived under horrendous abuse and it is not at all surprising that you are reacting with angry outbursts.

And it is completely, totally irrelevant. There is no sense sitting around analyzing the causes, etc. "Talk therapy" where you have "breakthroughs" and "learn things about yourself" for years on end is USELESS and keeps people mired in the problems for DECADES and makes therapists RICH. There is nothing to be gained from analyzing your angry outbursts, Atlanta.

The solution is to follow Dr. Harley's plan, and his advice to women in your situation is absolutely clear and unwavering: get away and don't let this man talk to you until he is completely changed, if ever. He will not change by conversation with you, and conversation with you is DAMAGING TO YOU, so stop participating in it!

RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, Markos. I agree. If you put yourself into a dangerous situation, you will likely get hurt. Best not to go there when the danger is evident.


I thought it was relatively safe yesterday. As it turned out, it was not.

I am back to Plan B.

I am very glad to hear that, Atlanta.

I can't remember: do you have an IM?

Have you changed your phone number and email addresses?

Have you sent him a plan B letter?

Have you got a plan in place for the event that he turns up at your door unannounced?

At this point, this man will only deliver you poison if you let him in. All you can do now is prevent him from delivering his poison and show him (via your plan B letter) what he must do to have a safe and loving marriage with you.

I have an IM.
I sent a Plan B letter.

My only plan in the event of him showing up is to ignore him. The locks are changed, he has no key. I doubt he will attempt to break in. I will call the police if he does.

I created a throw away email address a couple of days ago that I intended to use to communicate with him. At this point it is thrown away.

I was debating re-sending the Plan B letter again. Should I re-send it to reinforce my position, or should I simply drop off the face of the earth?

I would have intermediary let him know you are going back to your usage of an intermediary.

That is self explanatory and the original plan B letter either remembered or not.

Not your problem right now.

While I am on plan B, I have some questions.

A really big question I have is if he comes back with the correct outlook for reconciliation, is it better to let the affair drop in terms of in depth discussion and simply focus on the present and MB concepts for a better marriage?

The state of mind I am in I keep having conversations in my head with him, which are basically hurt and angry monologues over how much hurt I feel, how afraid I am of repeat offenses and rages at him for hurting and scaring me so much.

I keep thinking of him coming back, and starting reconciliation and then BAM! out of the blue AGAIN he does something terrible, or I get a panicked and trigger and it's so bad I can't control it and I freak out on him.

I am scared to death of losing control of myself.

The reason you have these angry outbursts is because you are constantly triggered by PRESENT behavior. For example, he is still secretive and does things that remind you of his affairs.

Another problem you are facing is his OC. That will be a lifelong reminder of his affair.

My suggestion is to stay in a very dark Plan B and don't think about it for now. After a few months your judgement will be much more clear about the future of your marriage.

Do your best to focus on yourself and leave your marriage on the sidelines for now. Can you do that?

As a general principle, YES. This is conditioned on a couple of things. Once you have all the FACTS about his affair and he has affair proofed the marriage to your satisfaction, the affairs should not be brought up. ALL of the focus should then be aimed to the MB program and creating your new marriage.

Yes, I will work on focusing on myself. It's really hard to redirect, but I totally understand where you are coming from on that.

Atlanta, did we discuss anti-depressants with you? Are you on ADs? Do you exercise?

You are a very intelligent person and right now you need your intelligence to overrule your emotions and take care of yourself. Like Winston Churchill said, "when you are going through hell, keep going!"

If you will just religiously stick to Plan B for a few weeks, you will notice a remarkable change in your mental outlook. I promise you!!

I was on anti anxiety meds. Zoloft, which is also used to treat depression.

I went off of it and rapidly had a painful increase in feeling bad, so I went back on it a week or so ago. It's helping. Some days I feel like an emotional refugee. This has been absolutely the most gutting experience of my life.When I was a teenager I was burned quite badly on one arm. It took months to heal. Honestly the pain of that has been less than the pain of this.

Stick to Plan B for a few months, as Mel suggested, and you are going to be feeling better soon. Plan B is for your relief.

We understand completely!! Dr Harley equates the pain of an affair to rape, physical assault or the death of a child......and he is a psycholgist. And you have been through TWO affairs and an OC.

Please ask your doctor's advice before stopping medicines cold turkey. There can be extreme side effects when you do this.

Hang in there, Atlanta. I really identify with your situation, not because I am victim of infidelity myself, but because my beloved mother was. My father behaved to my mother like your WH did to you: he treated her with utter disregard, numerous infidelities, an OC, prostitutes, arrogant behavior, completely entitled and full of himself, disdainful etc. He was charming and attractive and seemed successful, but he was actually a selfish cruel fool who thought only about himself.

My mum fell apart, bit by bit. She became an exploding kettle of uncontrollable AOs, and he got colder and colder and more contemptuous. I was the trapped witness to her complete breakdown when I was 17. He told me that he could not handle her AOs anymore, that's why he was leaving her. He was full of self-pity and self-righteousness.

That was 6 months after she had open-heart surgery. What a nice guy.

She eventually crawled away and was never the same again. I realise now that she had post-traumatic stress that was never dealt with.

Now YOU, Atlanta. you are lucky. You have MB. My mum thought it was all her fault.

I know you talk to your WH in your head, you want him to understand how unfair he is. He will not listen. He has not listened for a long time, if ever. It's not your fault, Atlanta.

Listen to ML and the others: they know what they are talking about. Plan B will give you peace.

Your poor mother, I am so sorry. My heart goes out to you for having to watch that. My own father would abuse my mother when I was a child, you feel so helpless, hurt, and angry watching it.

I don't actually, on a psychological level, understand what my husband thinks he is about.

He has alienated everyone. All of his relationships have conflict. It's like he is fighting against everyone despite the consequences.

That's because he still has things to sacrifice to the fire of the A to prove he was right.

Eventually he will run out of things to feed it. The "us against the world" really doesn't last too terribly long in an A -- unless they can involve you in it as the terrible Ganondorf who is trying to steal Zelda away from the noble Link. (More like SHADOW Link, which is what he has become). Which is why Plan B is a good idea.

It removes you from the drama.

I guess it's hard to understand anyone else, even when they try hard and are willing to meet you half-way, even when they seem to be builders/buyers who really love you and are interested in you. But when you know someone who seems to be driven by strange demons, who is hard, who alienates everyone, even the kindest people... One cannot understand this person's psychology, one can only set boundaries.


It was the same with my dad.

I've read a lot about serial/multiple adulterers on the MB forums because of my mother's sad situation. There seems to be some consensus that they are a different kettle of fish to the one-off or "occasional" adulterers (I should add that some people disagree to this consensus). Their motivations seem to be different (they actively seek, or are more addicted to, admiration) and the EPs must be extremely stringent and monitored with steely resolve.

But it's not impossible, as the case of Legex (I think that is the name) shows. I do feel, though, that serial/multiple adultery combined with long-term blatant and extended gaslighting is harder still to recover from.


I agree. Absolutely.

LOL KR with the old school gamer reference. I like it, anyways I agree a relationship that is sustained by that won't last. Also, its common behavior for addicts to keep company with people who accept their condition and poor choices. It's actually a good sign he's alienating his prior friendships because it shows those people don't agree with his poor choices.

My IM forwarded a message from him.

He agrees to conditions again. Also he says that he understands I am anxious and afraid. He then tries to explain to me the affair with his ex and whatever weirdness was going with the lady at work.

Simply, he said the lady at work was exactly a stranger when I first was upset about her. He says it makes him really mad and alienated when "you attack people you don't like. I wanted you to act like a classy lady."

I usually simply avoid people I don't like. Why put energy into them when you don't have to deal with them?. I "attacked" his ex because she harrassed me and I told her off and I told off that woman at his work and told her husband about her. I guess that is attacking.

Also, he says, he was not willing to do what I was asking and did what he wanted because he was sure we were not going to be able to reconcile after the baby came, so basically he didn't feel I was long term and in his own mind, though we are married, we were not really married and in a relationship he was willing to repair and keep.


He just wants me to understand that.

And what I remember is over and over him telling me honey calm down and we will love each other again. Honey be quiet about the past, honey calm down FIRST then I will do as you ask.

Now I hear his reason for the hell he has put me through? he watched me degrading, mocked me and put me down all the while telling me to calm down and things be ok... all the while he has decided that we were over?

Now he wants to tell me to calm down and we can work through it?

What is the real message here? I find myself nearly unable to think and keep calm because that communication is so painful to me. For 18 months I have been asking him to stop ONE thing in order for me to calm down and instead he increased it and watched me degrade to suidical last year, just flying apart from the pain and torment.

I am having a very hard time wanting to forgive this man.

I have not answered through the IM yet. My thought is this man needs ignored for now.

I am not sure I can forgive him for knowingly tormenting me to the point of daily panic attacks and suicidal impulses. He talks to me like I just have been overreacting and misinterpreting.

I am so upset I just keep calling my mom to calm me down and help sort my thoughts.

What do I do?

Atlanta, ask your IM to stop sending you stuff like this. It is obvious your H is not even remotely serious when he blames you for his abusive behavior. The next time he sends stuff like this to your IM tell her to reply to him that "this will not be passed onto Atlanta as per her instructions." And she should never tell you about it.

If she needs any help separating the wheat from the chaff, have her email me. I will help her with his foggy, wayward emails. Just notify the moderators with your email address [hit "notify" at the bottom of this post] and ask them to send you my email address.

ok

I don't like fog speak.

What kind of a kook has TWO freaking affairs and then says to YOU that you should have behaved with more "class" while he stuck it to you?? GOOD GOD.

That is about as foggy and insane as it gets.

Oh, no. Your IM should not have forwarded this. This is the same thing as saying "I agree to your conditions, but.' The 'but' negates everything.

IM has been asked to only forward straight agreement to my conditions. All else is not to be considered worth telling.

I always tried to act with the same class and dignity as my mother. It is true eventually I ended up raging at this guy. And nothing would or apparantly will convince the man that a legitimate response to the things he has done is to respond impolitely.

I now understand that a long time ago the true legitimate and "classy" response was to walk away and refuse contact until he went away forever or acted decently.

I feel so helpless and speechless. Silenced. It's really frustrating.

Here is the thing, though. If she only forwards straight forward agreement to your conditions but he is spouting fogbabble to HER, then that means he is not serious. She needs to decide if he is serious before she sends you anything. That is why I am hoping you get my email address and share it with her. I will help her decide if he is serious.. And he is a looooooooooooooooong way from serious after reading the above.

I think letting Mel help your IM is a GREAT idea ... she's great with the fogbabble

I understand how you feel, but you're not really those things.

You're not helpless, because you are helping yourself by demanding that you be treated with the respect that you deserve from your husband. A helpless person would have done nothing.

You're not speechless and silenced because you told him how it's going to be, in your plan B letter. Every time you don't accept his crumbs, your voice is being heard loud and clear by him.

You are stronger than you're giving yourself credit for.


You are acting with class now. Don't let him convince you otherwise.

The real message is that he wants you to feel responsible for HIS bad behavior.

YOU made him have an affair with his colleague. YOU made him have sex with his ex while married to you. YOU made the OC exist - just like that, POOF! the OC was brought into life.

Goodness gracious, Atlanta, did you realise that you have godlike powers?

I'm being facetious here but really, you should see how silly his assertions are. Maybe not now (the wounds still too fresh), but one day, you will laugh at this nonsense.

How can you plug those Plan B holes so you don't get turned around?

What self-care are you doing?

I have been occupying myself with real life. I eat properly, sleep at a reasonable hour. I work. I don't know, I feel kind of grim and resigned.

My IM understands what to put through to me and what not to. So far, so good.

She passed through to me that he said he is willing to do what I asked. That is it.

I don't believe him. I think it is him getting upset and thinking he is terrible and feeling alone is a knee jerk reaction and once he is talking to me, he will fall back into his pattern of evading discussions and coming up with "reasons" for his actions which involve poor him, how injured he is from my anger at him for what he has done, and how HE needs time to recover while I am on my best behavior.

What do I say to him when I get this attitude, because I figure I will get it. I want to know what to do ahead of time. How do I tell him anything about what I feel and think without LB? Because I could tell him flat out that when you put people into extreme situations of being cheated on, lied to, the recipient of OC and other damaging conduct, you will get someone who is very upset back. Is that blaming?

Or is it yes, I was very upset for a variety of reason and I understand you dont like being lashed out at, so that won't be happening again?

I am afraid to even try to reconcile with this guy because of all of the BS reasons he has been giving me for damaging behavior: that one about I didn't think we would stay together so I did as I liked.. boy I have been thinking about it a lot and I feel very strongly that I could be asking for things and he would just act like I am a nobody who he won't even reply to.

I feel angry and sad about that.

I waited a few days then agreed to meet and talk. He says he is too afraid of me to commit to agreement for reconciliation. He wants me to prove I can be trusted to stay calm and be strong.

I told him I have no problem staying calm when I am not being cheated on, emotionally abused, new babies are appearing and other women are not involved.

He tried to reassure me. HIS issue with me is getting so upset. Once he is confident I will stay calm, then he is ready to do everything I have been asking. He also point out that my repeating how bad I feel and why is putting HIM back into a state of hopelessness and depression. He says if I keep insisting on going round and round over the past, then how can we move forward to a better future?



I don't really have an answer to this, except I verified that unless we can speak calmly, there is no point in either of us trying to endure AO for any reason at all. I didn't say this to him, but I feel threatened by his statement which kind of sounded to me like: shut up or else he is gone.

I ended the conversation and excused myself when I started to feel upset from what felt like manipulation.

Trying to decide if he was just being honest and sharing what he feels/thinks and he is trying to be sensible or if I am being blamed, things rugswept and gaslit again.

What do people here think?

My goodness. Why is it all about him and what HE needs. You're supposed to make HIM feel safe?

Good for you for ending the conversation when you felt manipulated!

If it were me, it'd be no dice until he is ready to face the consequences of his actions. Which he clearly is not.

Sounds like a set up. He will do his part after you do your part even though is was his actions in the first place that caused this whole thing to go off the rails.

INSANE.

by set up i mean that he is leaving all the responsibility on you. so if it doesn't work it wasn't his fault?

he is not in any shape or form showing any true desire to reconcile if you ask me.

He doesn't feel safe from my AO.

He said it was that simple. Doesn't want to discuss why I had them, just that I did and it scares and hurts him.

He wans you to make him feel safe and THEN he will work on reconciliation? Are you kidding me? That is insane.

He wants me to control myself AO. Yes. Once he believes I won't rage at him for what he has done and trigger off into screaming fits, THEN he will feel safe to do as asked.

Officially agree, that is.

He says he knows I am devastated, but he doesn't want to talk about the past at all, he wants to see me calm and stable, without AO and then he will feel it is right to do what he has been asked to do. Though he says he is not actually doing anything that is cheating, lying, etc.

I may be splitting hairs, but I honestly feel really troubled by him holding back. I mean I agree AO should not be inflicted on him, and indeed is it true I reached the point of screaming fits at him many times when he openly flaunted the behavior in my face. Mostly after the baby showed up and he was treating me badly and hanging out with his co worker. I really believed he should have been there for ME, to reassure me, spend time with me, to show me he was sorry he hurt me.

Venting again, sorry. I guess I keep trying to justify past AO.

He's not returning with "hat in hand," Atlanta. Don't trust him. He needs to agree to your conditions before he starts finding fault in you.

IF he agrees to your conditions, your AOs will be addressed when you enter into a program of recovery.

Atlanta, and I would agree with him. You are beyond the place where you can control your emotions because there has been too much abuse. I have seen women who have experienced LESS than you who have post traumatic stress disorder. Since the conditions that led to his affair have not changed and since you will be subjected to his affair child, I would agree this is not a good idea for him OR YOU.

He is not in a position to negotiate the conditions of his return, so I would decline his offer. Just tell your IM to tell him that you are not interested in his offer.

Don't justify your past AO, but understand that all the emotions you feel are reasonable, and have not been considered even as of yet.

I would say no, he's not serious because he's setting the stage for the definition of you being calm and strong is to pretend/forget his affair. Essentially he's saying if you are willing to let bygones be bygones even if they haven't been resolved, then he'll think about providing just compensation of EP's, etc. He's simply keeping his options open, deciding which woman can do the best job of servicing him.

Anyway, if you feel that you really can't handle him anymore, it's okay to withdraw the conditions for reconciliation. It's okay to say that the time has passed and you're not interested anymore. I feel right along with you that he'll be giving you the "sit down, shut up, and put out" message and if you want to be drug through h*ll, just try to tolerate and live with that.

This is one of the problems here. In order to move forward you must have the full truth about the past. It is essential to your recovery. His refusal to give you that is a deal breaker. Also, his continued contact with his OW-XW is a deal breaker. And he is still friends with her on faceboook!!

Just politely decline his offer. Tell your IM to send your regrets. Thanks, but no thanks.

Atlanta, I would add that you are a walking example of why Dr Harley is ADAMANT that women only stay in Plan A for 3 weeks. Any longer and they suffer severe emotional and physical damage. He has hurt you terribly. And continues to see his OW to this day!!

I have been trying to work on the AO with him anyway. I tried the whole time I was having them. When I try to address to him why I was having them, he shuts me down and blames me for us not being able to heal or him to heal with I keep dragging him back into the past.

I am in pain now. It is not past for me. I don't know what to do with it. It feels wrong to go silent and and swallow it all.

By talking to him about it, am I talking to the wrong person. He advises a psychiatrist.

Yikes! If you talk to a psychiatrist, do it as part of your present and future.
If he suggested this, my thought is for you to let it and him go. He's not willing to help you heal, he wants to pass that onto you and some psychiatrist.

If you do a real Plan B, you will be able to heal and become happy. As long as you keep yourself entangled with him, you will not be able to move forward. How many different ways can he tell you that he isn't interested in your feelings and well-being before you shut him out?

Well, duh!!!!!

I mean he has balls!This is absolutely outrageous! I almost fell of my chair reading this.

Basically, it is all your fault, and you are preventing recovery.

So, you had an AO about all the abuse you endured. BIG FREAKIN" DEAL!!!! Let's put the horse before the cart here, the abuse came first, the AO was a consequence. Action-reaction.

And it is your fault?

And you wanting the truth, the WHOLE truth, is dragging him back?

Send your regrets, he's nuts

Would you be able to heal if he did these things:

1. gave you the full truth about his multiple affair? Passed a polygraph?

2. eliminated all contact for life with his XW?

3. eliminated all social networking and most especially, opposite sex friendships

Will he do all of this? And if he did, could you control your AOs?

1. I look back at his ex wife and that affair and I am afraid to ask much of anything. It's like there is something so terrible there that I am not sure I can stay calm talking about it.
I want to know EVERYTHING about the co-worker.

2. I would like it if he never talked to that woman again. As far as I can tell they really hate each other. I don't think he wants anything to do with her and would never talk to her again if it were not for the kids.

I would heal way faster if he never encountered his former co worker again for sure. I am extremely averse to her, the issues with her are actually pushed me beyond limits into most of the AO, the constant gas lighting, denials, what he did to me over her as I was breaking to pieces under his nose while he was doing it.

I have a massive amount of anger and hurt and just ENERGY about her.

3. Yes, it would help immensely.

Pineneedle I agree.

I would tell your IM to tell him that you will only consider anything he has to say AFTER he comes crawling back on his hands and knees. THEN after he told you what you want to know and passed a polygraph will you consider a life with him.

Even now he is abusing you. I am sorry you had to experience it again. I hope in any possible future meetings you bring a VAR

Atlanta,

Your situation is a lot like mine was. My serial cheating, POS exwh said and did the same things as your WH is saying now. I am sitting here almost shaking and mad as he11 for you reading your latest posts. I could NEVER recover in that environment, and unfortunately tried to for 4 miserable, emotionally and physically damaging years.

The physical and emotional damage came from not being able to talk and heal in a loving environment with a remorseful H. Instead, I hurt myself further by continuing to accept the same crumbs your WH is holding out for you, listening to his blame shifting. It was a horrible, horrible cycle.

I did not start healing until the day he moved out at the end of 2010. I went through all the grieving stages, another year of personal therapy, and have come out a lot happier on the other side.


Your WH lacks the empathy necessary for you to help you heal from the amount of damage he has caused. Given what I've read in your thread, I seriously doubt he ever will.

I implore you to cut your losses now, and not go through more years of he11 with him, further damaging yourself.

You will start the healing process when you do these things:

- Forget about what your WH is doing and thinking, and start to focus on you and what you want. Put your energy into something worthwhile. You. Right now, your WH and his idea of reconciliation is not worthwhile. I think you can agree with that.

- Feel good about knowing that you will never have to put up with his BS again, his hurtful words and actions or non-actions, because you won't accept anything less than your full list of conditions. A partial list will never do. I tried that and I was miserable. A partial list get you NOWHERE.

Once you start healing and hanging around people who are kind and considerate of your feelings, you will shudder at what you once put up with.

My BIGGEST regret was allowing myself to stay in that destructive environment for as long as I did. I can tell you with all certainty that you will continue to be abused by this man, and never ever heal, if you accept anything less than what you KNOW in your heart that you need from him.

As long as your WH isn't completely on board with just compensation, you will stay perpetually angry about that. And when you try to keep your AOs in check, you turn your anger inwards, and it causes depression, which makes you weak. All you will do is become weaker and weaker.

It might hurt to completely walk away now, but not much worse than what you are currently experiencing. You can only go up from here if you stick to your conditions for reconciliation.

The only way to get rid of the anger, is to get rid of what is making you angry, and right now that is your WH. He is a weed in your garden. Pluck him, and anybody like him, out.

He insists that since he stopped doing the cheating, etc, then I have no current reason to be upset. Therefore why am I? Because sensibly he cannot change the past. Only now. So don't talk about the past, focus on now. Be calm now, move forward, stop dragging up the past and being upset about something no one can change.

I am tired of the implied threat of end of relationship ( which then makes me think he feels he has OW options) if I don't shut up.

So ok, back to NC. I truely don't want to talk to him when I hear these things. I don't think it is right to grind him down and demean or demoralize him, but I feel like I just don't matter enough for him stop trying to force me to agree it's a dead horse I am beating even deader.

Most of the reason I even bring it up is he keeps witholding on the basis of how traumatized he is about me getting upset and AO. It's making me feel like I am a non person. Hey it's terrible Atlanta went into a big upset when she found about her husbands lovechild, even more terrible is the lady is refusing to make him feel all safe and happy so he will stay married to her.

I am dumb.

Just compensation. All I want is to stop being made the problem and him holding out on things on that basis.

And this is where the healing would have to start. You are entitled to know everything about his affairs with his XW and the OW. He would need to pass a polygraph additionally. This is not his private information, but information about your life to which you are entitled.

Will he agree to this?

[quotee]2. I would like it if he never talked to that woman again. As far as I can tell they really hate each other. I don't think he wants anything to do with her and would never talk to her again if it were not for the kids.[/quote]

Yes, and they "really hated" each other before when they got divorced. You can see how much that helped you. He would have to agree to never talk to her EVER. Kids or not. And unfriend her on facebook.

Will he agree to this?


He would have to ensure he never encountered skankhoe again.

Will he agree to this?

These are just very basic steps towards recovery, but are knock out factors if he won't agree.

Atlanta, stop screwing with this. He has said right here he won't meet your conditions. Sit there and shut up is not a path to recovery.

The perpetrator does not get to set the conditions for reconciliation.

He assured me that he intends to not have anything to do with his co worker again. He told me he knows she is thinking he should make things up to her and then they can be friends again. I guess they had a few blow outs in the past, and he broke the ice always. He says he is tired of her and can't be bothered.

His ex. No, he won't do that. He told me he still has assets with her that they didn't divide and he is scared of losing them, additionally she is playing a little game with him over the kids and access to them. Personally I would kick her behind around legally every time she caused an issue.. and she can be very good at causing issues.

I get the feeling more and more that I walked into a lot of unfinished business he had with her. I am pretty disgusted by it, because it was all hid from me until I was married to him.

Now he just says he is telling the truth, speaking as he sees things, not hiding things. I have no idea and am doubtful he is.

I agree. It's a constant struggle every contact I have with him. I know you understand.. what happened was the worst thing in my life, the pain and despair, wanting to kill myself as he mocked me for taking meds to calm me down.

What is even worse to me is it is like a crime, a fraud, like ethnic cleansing and later on no one will admit the atrocity happened. To be blamed to myself and him asking me to agree to it... I then caused my own anhilation. Its hard enough to be the recipient but to also be told its my fault for having been the recipient.. it's really destructive. THAT is what I end up fighting against.

DEAL BREAKER! He already got her pregnant once, are you hanging around for a repeat?

Seriously, Atlanta, there is nothing here to save. I am a natural optimist, but I can't give you false hope. This is a hopeless situation. You would be so much better off cutting your losses and moving on. There is nothing but pain and despair in your future with his man and if you did stay with him, it is very likely he would leave you for the next skank that came down the pike.

He won't end contact with his EX-OW, and won't even tell you the truth about the most recent OW. That is hopeless.

My exWH once told me that if I didn't get over it by a certain date, than he'd leave. This was about two months after the affair purge of lies in '08 I think. You have no idea how mad I was over that.

A remorseful WH would never say this....


Your WH is not ready.

I'm sure this recent contact has you upset and triggering again.

Maybe you can decide on a date that you will start divorce proceedings, if he hasn't met your conditions for reconciliation. That way, you won't feel like you're in a holding pattern forever. I would keep that date secret from the WH.

LEAVE the crime scene, my friend. Stop making yourself a crime victim. You are an intelligent, bright woman who needs to walk herself out of this nightmare. CHOOSE to be a victim no more.

Send him a letter and tell him NO DEAL, SAYANORA! And go down this week and file for divorce.

MyJourney has given you excellent advice. The only thing I would add is that he has had plenty of time to meet your conditions. You already know he will NEVER meet them. It takes 10 minutes to agree to those conditions. It has been 10 minutes since you gave him your conditions.

Then hold out for that.

Doing what you know you need empowers you and gives you strength.

I agree.

Atlanta, I would follow Mel's advice and start getting your ducks in a row, and file for a divorce right away. If by some miracle your WH decides to provide you with just compensation, you can decide at that time if that is what you want.

Forcing a divorce now will probably make the WH chit or get off the pot faster as well. Look at filing for divorce now as you taking control and moving your recovery along.

Honestly Atlanta, when you start taking these steps for yourself, you will feel better in so many ways. I can promise you that.

I don't care what fears you may have in filing for the divorce, do it anyway. The fear fades as you face them.

Don't blame yourself. You should have never been tested in this way to begin with.

This guy still believes he can negotiate the conditions of reconciliation so it is clear he does not take it seriously at all. Maybe divorce will convince him of your sincerity. And if he doesn't make a dramatic and radical change, you will be better off without him.

You do realize it is entirely REASONABLE to demand that he end all contact for life with his EX, right? There is no other way. none.

I know he won't do it right now. He is dragging his feet on separating assets and hammering her everytime she messes with him on seeing the kids. She will fight it constantly. That woman is full of endless malignant energy when it comes to getting her way.

He himself is extremely depressed about what he has done. He calls himself (literally says "I am") sh*t all the time. He says he wakes up every morning and feels ok about 1 second, then he remembers who he is and what he has done. He doesn't want to talk to people or be around people. He found a job and does business and very little else.

He doesn't want me to talk about it because it makes him feel even worse, and then if I have an AO, he has to maybe deal with me raging at him and he worries what I will do when upset. Because I DID smack his co worker around a few times and tell her husband on her.

I am just saying what he told me.

He does believe he can decide conditions. Don't know exactly why, maybe because he successfully walked all over me for years and I kept arguing but taking it instead of leaving.

Because he has never been forced into making that decision. He has always gotten his way about this, to the detriment of your marriage. And you can never force him. All you can do is decide to not live like this, and if he really wants the marriage, then he will force himself to make that decision finally. You have control over this, by filing for divorce. You don't have to wait on his timeline anymore.



It's still all about him Atlanta. All of his actions thus far, have been all about him. He cares more for himself than anyone, including you or his ex. My exWH said and did the same things in your quote above. Dr. Harley Sr. told me once that my exWH was in an affair with himself. Guys like this are emotionally stunted, and typically only get worse, not better. From my experience, and what I've read in the forums, this seems to be true except for a rare case every blue moon.


Sounds like something a number of us could have done, with the amount of resentment and anger that has piled up over time. But here's the thing Atlanta. It is now your choice, like Mel said, to not put yourself in this position anymore. Stay in plan B, move to plan D, so that you are allowing yourself to stay in an abusive situation that you know will make you insane with anger. That's what AOs are. A moment of insanity.

Your WH will constantly use passive aggressive behavior to to make the anger come out in you, so he can throw it back in your face and blameshift to distract from the real issues. People with P.A. behavior are angry people, and they release their anger through other people. As long as you stay out of this abusive relationship, he can no longer blame you for another AO. Which means he will have to deal with his anger all by himself. While he is dealing, or not dealing, with his side of the street, you take your energy and focus it towards you in setting up a life that doesn't include him until, and unless, he is ready.


Correct. This is it in a nutshell Atlanta.

Stop the cycle and leave.

Atlanta, I would give anything if I could go back and make that choice on my own, waaaayyy sooner than when my exWH finally did himself.

I suffered some major physical complications, as a direct result from the emotional trauma of the affairs and constant lying, starting in the first year after dday, which resulted in life altering surgery. I was also dealing with a two year long illness with my mother, ultimately losing her during the horrible false recovery. With every day I stayed in that relationship, which had been fraught with half just compensation measures, and AOs on my end, or internalizing the anger and causing the depression, I became weaker and weaker.

I can look back now and see that if I had taken the steps sooner that we are advising you too, I could have saved myself years of needless pain, money, and time. Not to mention the loss of health, and the happiness I didn't have then, but I do now.

You gave your WH enough time to make this right. You don't have to be in perpetual cake eating mode anymore if you file for divorce.

He feels he has too much to deal with from other dramas. He asked that I go silent because he says clearly I am not trying to get reassurance and comfort, which he is ready to give. He says he simply shuts down, becomes upset himself because he believes all I want to do is blame him for what he did and vent on him.

He says he is NOT going to talk about what happened. He can't change it. He knows how I feel, that he was wrong, what he did was terrible. He says please deal with my emotions myself because he won't do it. He says I need to find someone else to "listen to your stories" because he has no capacity for it due to OTHER things he is dealing with. I guess a few family members have been giving him heck and re traumatizing him for all he did to cause issues.

I don't know what to say to that. Except at this point I am silent and thinking on things.

Should I not talk to him about things. He says :

"Okay I am guilty with all those things in the past but still can't help you stop being upset. Please don't put it on my head - I have too much to deal with atm on my own.I am tired of it. Atm I don't gave capacity to listen all things I heard already before, I am sorry, find somebody else you listen your story."

And also, I am not ignoring what you guys are saying.

I feel very bad that I am not worth it to him to take a few simple steps.

I am getting kind of confused with all it.

"Good bye. You are a selfish, manipulating jerk who has caused me horrible pain for years, and now instead of comforting me over pain YOU caused you are telling me to call someone who cares because you just can't handle it and don't want to feel bad. Never contact me again."

That's what I would say.

Atlanta, you ARE worth it. He is a narcicist. It wouldn't matter if you were PERFECT. It wouldn't matter if you fanned him with palm fronds and fed him grapes. He cares about 1 person and 1 person only, and that is him. Even now he doesn't want to hear it because he is too absorbed in his own pain and guilt from what he himself did.

NEVER think you are not worth it. You have given more to this man than many other women would have, and he just kicks you in the face for it.

Don't be confused. His issue is that he is a selfish jerk, not that you are not good enough. Once you see the truth that you are the victim of an abuser, not because you were weak or bad, but because he ENJOYS abusing you and getting his way, you will find it easier to move on.

I am praying for you hard.

I asked around and talked to his sister. I realize this is not strictly NC, but I wanted to follow up on it in order to think about filing the divorce.

Basically klove, you are right. He has been so rotton in the past few years that everyone is mad at him and they all want him to man up, but as it turns out, manning up results in conflicting actions. His ex wife is giving him heck again, she thinks he is done with me so she is trying to force him back to her and using the kids. His former inlaws are at him. His mother is upset with him. His friends are becoming former friends, I am putting pressure on him and he is spinning in circles.

All caused by him, and now he is under the gun and can't make anyone happy, so is having some sort of freak out. He said "atm" he can't help me because he can barely hold it together enough to even get through the day.

What I am going to do is go silent Plan B a month. I am directing my IM to not pass messages to me during that time. I think everyone is so upset that no one is fit to do anything until it all calms down.

For my own peace of mind, I am doing this. IF he sends something to IM that sounds like he really means he will get on board, then I will decide from there. If he is still boo hooing for himself in a puddle on the floor, I am going to give it up.
Will file for divorce.

I already have the paperwork done, just needs signed, dated, and served.

Sad, not optimistic.

He doesn't know what he is losing.

This is so hateful, and uncaring. My exWH said the same thing to me. I'm a sweet, calm, and nice person, but when my ex said things like this to me, I wanted to kill him. I couldn't believe the audacity he had for blowing me off when I was in so much pain, so that he could run off and lick his wounds? What a baby. This is not a man.

I'm glad you have your divorce papers ready.

Be careful Atlanta. My ex did tell my IM he would do what was on my list, and then went back on his word after I let him back into the house.

This man needs to be on his knees if he comes back. If he doesn't seem 1000% remorseful, and begging for forgiveness, do not take him back.

And btw.... I am in love again, and very happy. My BF tells me all the time that "I'm worth it". You are worth it Atlanta. Your WH just isn't the kind of man that you will likely ever hear that from.

He says for him this is simple.
He says he did terrible things. He has stopped doing them. So why is Atlanta still so upset instead of doing something positive and being productive in moving forward and fixing the relationship instead of stubbornly insisting on "venting, blaming, and being stuck in the past."

I do not know why. Except I think he speak to me unkindly and I am probably unreasonable to think someone who I am hurt and angry at should actually sit there and listen to me telling them I am upset and afraid due to things they DID but are no longer doing. He said he isnt doing it anymore, so why keep complaining.

And I did it like every 2 weeks while he was doing it and he is/was finding it intolorable and destructive. Like it is a massive LB.

Is this resentment that I really should be controlling and keeping to myself?

If your spouse were to understand how deeply he hurt you and you both worked through everything then venting wouldn't be wise. But he doesn't understand and I don't think he ever will.

Atlanta. You need to stop second guessing yourself.

Your list of conditions are necessary and very reasonable. He is not even willing to stop seeing his ex-wife/OW!!!!! NO, this is not resentment you should be controlling. This is you protecting yourself.

The only time your H may have a point is under these conditions:

- He is willing and does the precautions necessary to affair proof your marriage.
-He stops seeing the OW forever.
- He has answered all affair questions.
- He is willing to follow a plan to restore love to the marriage.
-No opposite sex friendships.

If he did all the above, and you still talked the affair to death, then he would have a valid point.

Right now, he does not. All he wants to do is the minimum required to get his [censored] back in the door.

If you value yourself that little Atlanta, take the crumbs.

yes

Atlanta,

Does "yes" mean you know you deserve better than crumbs?

Have you read MyJourney's thread? You should.

Yes to what?

Please don't tell me you value yourself that little. I don't even know you and I value you simply as a kind and hurt human being.

I understand how hard this is. You have a very manipulative husband that is trying to convince you that you should take the crumbs, and that the crumbs are reasonable. It's BS and you know it.

When I was in your shoes, I thought for sure one day something would break in my ex and he'd "get it". During those 4 miserable years after dday, he never did. He never did, still hasn't, never will.

Move onto to something better Atlanta. I could throw a rock in any direction and find a better man than my wayward ex, or your wayward H.

No you are not confused. You are an intelligent woman. You know he doesn't care. And you know you can't make him care.

I get confused listening to him talk.

Yes, I know I deserve the best.

He is telling me he doesn't have it in him because he is so worn out. He only has it in him to put a lid on the past and move forward doing it all better now. So essentially he says YES to MB principals but the past is NEVER to be talked about anymore because it can't be changed. And he will only DO what I ask when he is sure HE won't get me talking at him about it. Basically I am to be quiet about it and when he decided I have proven myself THEN he will do as asked ( as long as it doesn't involved blaming him or talking about the past).

He is refusing now because he is afraid of me talking about the past and blaming him. He is so afraid of it that he immediately goes into massive drama to stop it and the past never gets talked about anyway. I am starting to think eff him.

I am pretty frustrated and hurting. He says he is there for me when I feel bad, but he says I come in too upset and he can't do anything. And he feels it is just tearing him down to have to listen and he isn't going to let me do that to him.

So I won't. I am feeling a little bitter at this point, pardon me.

So what do I do except go away. So I am.

I'm glad you know you deserve better than the treatment he is giving you.

He doesn't get to rip your heart out and then refuse to talk about it, if he hasn't answered all of your questions. Eff him is right.

specifically he says I am dumping my emotions on him and he doesn't want to deal with them.

Same thing as him telling you that he DOESN'T CARE about your pain, just his.

Is this the kind of person you really want to spend the rest of your life with?

Or do you want the kind of person who will happily, and humbly, accept your conditions and be grateful that you are even giving him the opportunity?

You know which one is going to make you happy and healthy. Your H isn't it.

Atlanta, you will feel 1000% better if you just shut that door. Shut the door and don't look back. There is nothing but pain, misery and abuse through that door.

Well I said the same thing to him. That he doesn't care.
He insists he does, but what do I expect him to do about it when he can't change the past. I said have some empathy, tell me he knows I feel bad (kindly!) and that he is working to be sure it won't happen again.

He says then that doesn't work because the effect is temporary. I need to hear it again a week later because I remember what he did and IS doing. So he is getting angry and upset and full of despair because I "just want to vent,attack, blame, and live in the past." So he is then done with me, his efforts are not working because I am so stuck on wanting to mess his head up by haranguing him or something.

I don't agree that is what is actually happening, I am just repeating what he is saying, hoping someone may see something I don't. Probably Melodylane is right: he just doesn't care.

I can say I am a ditch digger but it is not true unless I actually dig ditches. The truth is backed up by actions and we can see with your husband's actions that he doesn't care.

You know he doesn't care.

He will never meet the necessary conditions for recovery, ie: give you the full truth about his affairs, pass a polygraph, end all contact for life with his OW. You know he will do none of that.

He doesn't care. He doesn't care. He doesn't care. He doesn't care.

Since he doesn't care, you can be assured that your future with him will be just as bad as the past.

Do you want more of the same?

Meaning, he doesn't care.

He's not happiness material. Just misery material.

After having been through the divorce process, I can tell you that you even before the divorce is finalized, you won't be "confused" anymore. AS LONG AS you stay in plan B and are not poisoned with his toxic attitude. The confusion leaves you when the crazy-maker is gone.

I don't want more of the same.

He has made your life a holy unmitigated hell. And promises more of the same if you stick around.

If he were not around, you would be free to find a relationship with someone who could make you happy. You can't do that as long as you have this anchor chained to your ankle.

Can you imagine being with a man that you loved even more who made you happy? You can have that.

Welcome to your future if you stick around. It is hard to end a marriage, but it is much harder to live a life where you are tormented and abused.

He is the ticket to misery where you will be sharing him with his XW mistress and his children. You will get second billing to all that.

This man will not make you happy. He will drive you into the nuthouse.

We could have been married to the same man. Our situation played out exactly the same.

I would ask a reasonable affair question. He would lie. I would know it was a lie and dig deeper. He would argue, blameshift, distract. We got nowhere. I would ask again after things calmed down a week, or two later. Same thing, but the story would change. I would maybe get a truth, be upset more than usual over dealing with the emotions that come with finding out one speck of truth that took too much heartache to get out. When I would be hurt over the truth, or the lie, or the the teeth pulling, I received NO empathy, unless i was so manipulated into believing it was all an overreaction that I caved, cried in a corner, and maybe, maybe I got a hug.

It was a cycle that repeated itself over, and over, and over again!!!!

He is running you in circles!!! He is a CRAZY-MAKER.

He is an abuser and he has made you sick. Sick people stay in abusive relationships.

The reason I keep going round and round on this is not to wear the patience of people out here.

1.He has cut off contact with office co worker/ow#2 and says he doesn't want contact.

2. He has stated he knows the pain he caused, the upset, that his actions were very wrong. he is sorry, doesn't want to do anything more like that. He has stopped.

3. No, he is not likely to do a lie detector. He is still lying. I personally think more went on with coworker, and he is afraid I will know. No, he does not want to admit what he is doing out of shame for it. Is this needed by me. I would like to know.

4. He has things to sort out with the ex. He avoids her as much as possible. Since he has not sorted his asset and custody issues, he is not able ( in his mind) to actually cut off all contact. I actually believe he wants to.

So the tripping point over and over.. he does not want to be directly on the recieving end of what he feels is blaming and venting.

How about someone here give me an example of how to approach the guy when I trigger and all I am doing is crying and upset and scared something may happen again, or I suddenly put 2+2 together and realize 3 years ago I was lied about something important while he was carrying on the affair with the ex.

What do I actually DO with what I suddenly understand or realize, or my fear and pain?

What do I say to him.

I want to know if I truely am doing it in a way that a small change in my own actions would make all of the difference.

What actions has he DONE?

How you deal with a guy when you're very emotional?

You don't. You go into a very dark Plan B.

What we are saying to you is that you should not be dealing with him AT ALL. He is dangerous to your mental health.

This is not about you changing your behavior; this is all about him changing his behavior and meeting your conditions. He won't do that.

He doesn't care.

We already know what he has done. He has done nothing.

1. refuses to tell you the truth about his affair

2. refuses to take a polygraph

3. refuses to end his affair with his XW

4. doesn't even admit the truth about his affair with his most recent OW

5. his solution to your pain is to tell you to shut up because he doesn't hear it anymore

There is nothing here except more abuse and more demonstrations of an uncaring, cruel, callous attitude.

He acts like he is the victim. YOU are the victim. He is the rapist who claims he is the victim because his rape victim cries about the rape. "All that crying gives me a headache!"

Do you know how sick it is for your husband to complain about YOU after what he has done to you?

Really? everyone here who was cheated on and presented with an OC didn't tell their cheating spouse how bad it felt and the pain doesn't go away just because they stopped cheating?


You just go Plan B? I should Plan B until I don't hurt anymore or I Go Plan D?

Ok. He is right. I am a broken record meant to torture him with my every week upset over realizing the credit card is maxed and the money in the emergency account is gone because his ex wife want to go on vacation and after all, it was HIS money too.

I should not say anything about how disappointed I am, how long it took to save, how it was meant for emergencys, not carting off some ow skank to the bahamas.

haha, Melody. He told me to go tell someone else how bad I feel. I did. Now I should tell him this is what the person I told said about it.

YOU CANNOT RECOVER WITHOUT KNOWING THE FULL TRUTH ABOUT HIS INFIDELITIES. YES, YOU NEED TO KNOW THIS STUFF.

My ex had the same arguments. I told him poly or divorce. He said divorce. Three days later changed his mind. Shortly before the poly, he sung like a canary and I found out about more affairs.

He had every excuse in the book, just like your H, to not protect our marriage as well with E.P.s.

Remorseful FWHs will quit their jobs, quit seeing an ex, quit whatever situation is necessary to reconcile.

Maybe you should put a timeframe on those conditions. Give him 30 days to clear up any assets they share, get a poly, or you walk. Anything less than your conditions ARE HALF MEASURES.

When your cheater spouse refuses to meet the necessary conditions for recovery, you go to Plan B *AND* Plan D.


That's right. Just take yourself of the picture. Shut the door and don't speak to him AT ALL. Not about the affair and not about the price of tea in China.

Go into a dark Plan B and don't speak to him again.

I know how sick it is. His point back is ok, he heard me, he knows I hurt, he is sorry he did it. Then he says what is the point of telling him again, he already KNOWS. He stopped the actions causing the upset.

He already knows, now go tell someone else instead of "dumping your emotions on me."

You can do soooooooooooooooo much better. What makes you think you can't have a husband who loves you and can make you happy?

Do you think you deserve this misery? Leave him to his mistresses.

Exactly Atlanta.