First, I want to thank everyone on this site for their help and insight that is so much needed. I have been reading as much as possible here in hopes that I can get through this great tragedy in my life. Just reading everyone�s posts has gotten me through many though days and sleepless nights these last few weeks. I thought that I could just read enough to make things better but I am now stuck and hope that someone out there can help me through this.

My WW and I have been together the last 15 years and married the last 11. We have 2 great boys together ages 6, and 5. My wife and I moved to Florida from the North East almost 2 years ago because we enjoyed the warmer climate and more affordable living. My wife was a SAHM for most of our marriage but 6 months ago returned to a full time job to help support the family and to get out of the house to meet new people.

Around Oct 2012 she became friends with a woman next door and they started talking and hanging out frequently. My wife was so happy to have a new fried. Around November they started to go out almost weekly to the local bar/club and stay out later and later. I expressed my concern but was really happy that my wife was feeling good and wanted her to have fun. At the same time she started to tell me that we needed to do more things together and go out. Unfortunately living in a new state with no one to watch the children prevented that from really ever happening except on a very few occasions.
As time went by I noticed all the classic signs of her withdrawal. She was attached to the phone and we just never seemed to connect like we used to. I guess you all know where this is going�

I just knew something was wrong. Then comes Monday night 2/4/13. I waited till WW was asleep and checked her phone and found she had been texting with an OM. I checked her FB and everything was there. They had met at the club sometime in mid-January and have been talking regularly since. It does appear to be EA only as the text/fb message trail did not indicate ever seeing each other than the night they met at the club. This POSOM was really pushing hard to meet up at the same bar that same weekend. Also, new friend and neighbor who is also married was asking my WW if she wanted to go to the same club that weekend and hopefully OM would be there. WHAT a B****!

So, having faced this new news I entered crises mode. I did not want to confront WW right then so I immediately installed a Key Logger on the home PC and a SMS tracker on her phone in the middle of the night. I also pulled the detailed phone records from our account and found when and how often they were speaking.

I confronted her that next morning having more than enough proof of her EA. She admitted speaking to OM but said it was nothing and I was being paranoid. I explained that there was something more to this because of the more than 20 texts/calls per day to OM and it needed to stop immediately.

That day she went to work after our talk and I stayed home as I was way too upset to even think about work. All while reading WW texts to OM. God how sick I was that day. This POSOM sensed blood in the water and he was full press to get some rebound love. That day I get a text from WW that we needed to have a big talk when she got home from work. Here we go!

So wife gets home and we set up kids with dinner and we go outside for �the talk�. Classic ILUBINILWY speech, she has not been happy for a few years, she is done with our marriage. I explained that I love her and we should get into counseling and work to reconcile. We could get past this if we work on our marriage together. She did not want to hear any of it and said she would be staying with her aunt that weekend. Her parents just bought a new home near us and would be moving 1000 miles to be near us and their grandkids. She would move with them once they settled on the house 3/1/13. The toughest part was how she tried to shield herself by saying that she does not feel bad for telling me this as she has been hurting for so long and the reason I am hurting so bad now was that this is all new to me. Ya� Think!

Although I was hurting so bad I was determined I could fix this and started searching the Web and found the MB website. Meanwhile she was still full on with OM. Texting or talking 20 times a day. I kept telling WW that she needed to end her EA and end all contact with OM but she would lie and say they were no longer talking and I was �blowing this way out of proportion�. All while I was seeing her texts/calls with OM. I read about exposure and decided to go nuclear. The night of 2/17 I exposed to my parents and her entire family and close friends. Needless to say that morning things had hit the fan. Her mom immediately emailed me and said that before I sent the email to everyone I should have first knew the 100% honest and truth. I replied back that I have SEEN the �100% honest and truth� and in fact I was willing to share my proof. I did not hear back from her after that. Both our parents are still married and never divorced so this had to be a great shock to them.

So WW came home from work and right away I got the �We need to talk�. Our talk was really surreal. It was like she was reading from the script on this forum. She gave the classic � I can�t believe you did this�, �my family now just thinks you are crazy�, �I was going to work this out with you but now we are over� All the time I was almost laughing inside about how this was going EXACTLY as I read how it would go here on MB. I just responded with the �I did not want to upset you but I am just trying to save my marriage.� Over and over! I was so prepared for this that it felt great!

She stormed away from our talk and went back to her Aunt�s house to stay. Meanwhile I was reading all her text to OM and her friends and was waiting for the fall out. Well, that very night she texts to OM that she did not want to talk to him and that she had too much going on in her life right now� I just thought to myself �man, this stuff actually works!�
She came home last Friday 2/22 and said that she wanted to stay at home for our boys until she could move into her parents new home 3/1/13. We would then split time with the boys. Since then the POSOM still constantly will send her a text almost daily and WW will reply that she is sorry but he should be with somebody that is more stable. She is dealing with too many things right now. She has not contacted OM since day of exposure. I then went into Plan A mode.

So, last Saturday night 2/23 we put the boys to bed early and sat and talked�and talked�and talked. And after 4 bottles of wine and at 2:00am we had the best conversation that I had had with my WW since we started dating 15 years ago. It was so great to just talk and listen. She said she was so happy and she missed our conversations. The next AM I felt So, So, much better. Like just maybe we were going to get through this�

Sunday was quiet as I think we were just tired from talking so much the night before. All was feeling normal. She was still not talking with OM and we had a nice family dinner together. That night, she sits me down and tells me that we need to tell the kids that we are separating and she would be taking the boys to her parent�s new home 3/1. We would still continue to share custody with the kids 1 week on 1 week off. I was surprised that she still wanted to move out and realized that I still have a lot of work ahead of me. Meanwhile WW still has no contact with OM but still showing no affection in my direction. I am absolutely positive of no contact because OM still will contact her daily via text and she will not respond. I also have access to email and fb accounts.

Her parents arrived in town yesterday and I was trying to fill WW�s love bank and offered to help her parents unload the moving truck all day yesterday. I could tell WW was really happy with me and she was finally showing some affection towards me. Last night she again reiterated that she wanted to tell the boys of our splitting up. I agreed and we will talk to them this PM after school.

So, my questions are this. What should I be doing different? I am still in Plan A and have been trying to make deposits but it seems that she just does not want to work on her end. Does this talk to the boys tonight mean that it is over for us? Do I switch to plan B? It kills me that she would rather go stay at her parents and sleep on an air mattress instead of at our beautiful home. I just have this feeling that it is over once she moves out as we will never see each other to work on our issues. One last thing� I was sure to tell WW that I take partial blame for this and understand that I was not meeting her needs. I want to be a better person and I can be the man she once fell in love with. She seems to think it is too late and has given up. Please let me we can get past this� Somebody. Anybody�

Floridaguy, welcome to the forums. I'm sorry for the reason that brought you here. I have to say that I am impressed with the actions you have taken so far to recover your marriage.

I am hoping some BH's will chime in here soon. But, I believe that you need to make it clear that you will NOT be doing a nice amicable divorce and that you WILL NOT be giving her custody of the kids. That she is free to go if she wants to act like a single person but she will not be subjecting your childrn to that kind of loose behavior.

Consult with an attorney to find out your options.

As an aside, my WH and I are looking into making the move down there this summer

Floridaguy. It looks like you have been reading a lot here and you are doing great.


Can you show your WW's parents the some of the evidence and ask for their support to NOT enable your WW in breaking up your kids family by allowing her to move in with them? It is difficult to work on a marriage when you are separated...as you rightly sense.


Have you exposed this POSOM and skank neighbor?

Don't do this. Tell your WW that you want to save this marriage and will not agree to breaking up the family.

Be strong Floridaguy. Your WW wants you to fight for her.

Thanks for your reply Pokerface.

I offered the proof to WW's parents but they seem to not really want to see it. They just picked up their entire life and drove 1000 miles to be here with their grand kids. I get the sense they are in shock. I have always been close to them and my father in-law was actually chocking up when we said goodby last night. I know they love me and are not happy but as good parents I do not expect them to turn their daughter away.

I would like to expose the POSOM but I just can't find anything about him. I have tried every website to trace his cell phone but it always comes back with different results or to someone else that is 68 years old so can't be him. She is not talking to OM currently so I think she is trying to come out of her fog.

You said you found him on Facebook. Copy his contacts into a word document and send messages to them.
Check the "Exposure" thread for exact details on how to do this.

I am impressed too! Shortly you will likely begin to receive comments and advise from the wonderful veterans to this site.

I would also encourage you to call the MB coaching center and set up a phone meeting with Steve H or Jennifer C. You can also write a question to Dr Harley on his radio show. The coaching would be more immediate.

Have you purchased Dr Harley's "Surviving an Affair" ?

Its great your wife did respond positively to your beginning efforts. Still it does take significant time to rebuild the love bank. And your wife is in a fog.

And have you told your children about your wife's affair?

So should I cancel telling the kids tonight??? This is happening in a few hours so i need help fast. I already told her this Am that I was OK with telling them today. She did seem hesitant at first but maybe I missed the signs!! OMG so confused!!

I would keep asking for their support with the argument that keeping the family together is best for their grandchildren.

I agree they are in shock. Don't give up on getting their support.

Don't agree to breaking up your family. Agreeing to her destructive ideas makes you look like you don't care.

Thanks graceful2b,

I purchased the SAA Monday AM. Should be here shortly. I absolutely want to set up meeting with Steve or Jennifer but thought WW needed to want to work on things first.

I do not plan to tell boys about affair as being only 6 and 5 I personally think they are to young to comprehend.

I already like what you've done!

Well done you! This shows you have the basic capacity for the self control you will need to fight this fight!

10 days ago, you made a very courageous move.




The Art of War .... you were preparing while your 'enemy' was goofing off. Then you struck without warning! BINGO!


Tell the boys yourself. With her or without her. Mommy has 'a boyfriend' and married people are not supposed to do that. Tell them that you want to keep the family together.

She is going to try and paint this as "Mommy & Daddy can't get along." Hit the BRAKES and ring the "WRONG ANSWER BUZZER" when she tries to do that.
Do not call her a liar, but say, "That is not true." when she tries to pull this magic trick. Be certain to tell the kids "I love Mommy. I want Mommy to stay here with us and be happy. I want Mommy to stay with our family. I want us to be a happy family."

Do NOT allow her to control the narrative.

Welcome to MB.

Is OM married?

They are going to be confused as hell if they do not hear from you the real reason Mommy wants to break up the family. They will think they did 'something bad'.

Use the "Mommy has a boyfriend" sentence. It is age appropriate, and truthful.

Ditto.

A dude she met in a bar needs to be investigated.
Hire a professional background check on him.

GPS her vehicle.

Good job so far.
Really!

While telling the boys, repeat these responses as much as you like:

I love Mommy.
I want Mommy to stay here.
I don't want Mommy to leave.
I want to keep our family together here, in our home.
This is our home.
This is our family.
Married people are supposed to try hard to keep the family together.
I can make Mommy happy.
I love both of you.
I want Mommy to get rid of her boyfriend.

[/quote] yourself. With her or without her. Mommy has 'a boyfriend' and married people are not supposed to do that. Tell them that you want to keep the family together.

She is going to try and paint this as "Mommy & Daddy can't get along." Hit the BRAKES and ring the "WRONG ANSWER BUZZER" when she tries to do that.
Do not call her a liar, but say, "That is not true." when she tries to pull this magic trick. Be certain to tell the kids "I love Mommy. I want Mommy to stay here with us and be happy. I want Mommy to stay with our family. I want us to be a happy family."

Do NOT allow her to control the narrative. [/quote]

Wow, I am not sure i can do this. I think if I do that will just make her withdraw more. We have already gone over that "mommy and daddy are going to live in two houses", "we are still a family, but a different family" "We love you" practice talk. I am not sure i can just switch without any warning.

You have to be cool and calm like James Bond.


Plan A.


Here is a link to the entire thread: HERE

OM is not married from what I can tell on FB. Looks like a total player.

Listen to me.
You can switch this without warning.
"Make her withdraw more" ???? She's planning to move out and take YOUR boys with her.

Be the Dad your boys need.

Trust an oldie. Telling them her bullcrap story is a rookie error.

Do NOT allow a wayward foggy wife control the narrative your kids hear.

He may be a pedophile.
Background check.
DUIs.
Law suits.
Divorces.
Find out who the enemy is.

Your boys will cry.
That's GOOD.
This should be intensely UNCOMFORTABLE for your wife.
She should feel awful for what she is intentionally doing to her boys.
Do not make the break-up of their family a fake-happy event.

In addition, who on OM's side have you exposed to?

Did you read what Dr. Harley says about telling the children as young as 4 the truth?

OK, I will repeat without warning:

I love Mommy.
I want Mommy to stay here.
I don't want Mommy to leave.
I want to keep our family together here, in our home.
This is our home.
This is our family.
Married people are supposed to try hard to keep the family together.
I can make Mommy happy.
I love both of you.
I want Mommy to get rid of her boyfriend.

Not much else to loose!

After you tell the kids, also say (something like .... use this as a template):



"OK. You kids are not moving out. Mommy will decide later if she still wants to move out. Daddy does not control Mommy. You boys are staying here. So, let's plan our weekend. Let's make tents in the family room and have an indoors picnic on Saturday. How does that sound?"

Your wife is no more responsible for her actions than a drunk or a drug addict. What possible reason could you have for agreeing to let her steal your children from you?

Grab some testosterone pills, dude, and tell WW that she may move wherever the hell she wants, but you children stay put. Their home is where they have lived, and her little affair and temper tantrum does not change that.

File a court order if you have to! And tell FIL and MIL to get the hell out of your marriage. They have some frickin' nerve acting as an accessory to her destruction thereof.

THERE! That's how you FIGHT, amigo!

Exactly!
Be the one parent who tells the kids the truth (age appropriate).

When you are done telling them be sure to ask:

"Do you have any questions?"

Be sure to tell the boys they can come to you anytime with questions and tell them you will be honest with them. "Because, Mommy & Daddy have taught you to tell the truth, so we must tell the truth to you."

If possible, hold WW's hand while you talk to the boys. (non verbal is what kids recognize as true)

Good advice! Tell the boys the truth. I suspect your WW is hedging her bets. She wants to separate so she can go back to OM with a clear conscience. Keep up plan A. Maybe a nice dinner tonight.

Good job on exposure and all your actions so far! Keep going!

OK, I am ready...

I love mommy &
I want mommy to stay here.
I don't want mommy to leave.
I want to keep our family together here, in our home.
This is our home.
This is our family.
Married people are supposed to try hard and keep the family together.
I can make mommy happy.
I love you both so much.
I want mommy to get rid of her boyfriend and stay with our family.

Ohh man, this is gonna be crazy but i will practice the rest of the day and be prepared.

Thanks Everybody!!

Good luck Floridaguy. Do not engage your WW anger...expect it.

After the boys are asleep, WW will try to lay into you. Here is your ammo. Lock & load FLGuy, lock & load.

"Did you really think I would watch my family break up and not resist?"

"You are the woman I vowed to fight for. I am fighting for you."

"I think we, all four of us, are worth our very best effort. We can fix this. We have not exhausted every effort we can make."

"'Swear your most excellent promise.' Do you remember the movie ET, when Elliott says 'Swear your most excellent promise'? That's what our wedding vows are. We swore our MOST EXCELLENT promise to do whatever necessary during the good times, and the bad times."

"I am not going to be your warden. I am going to be your husband and do my best to keep this marriage, our family, the boys' home intact."

No mention of OM, or the plans you will make to destroy him. OM, as a topic, is NOT important. Your efforts, your willingness, and your resolve to resist her efforts to BREAK up the FAMILY are the topics of importance.

Got that? OM is a bug under your shoe. You do not discuss bugs.

Thanks.

I will report back tonight and will keep preacticing checking for advice.

Fight for your family but not with disrespect, demands or anger. Do not roll over so easily. Tell your children the truth. They likely know there is trouble because their mommy has been going out without you and so other focused. You and their mother made a big mistake. You did not take the time needed to be alone and care for one another. Their mommy was lonely for friends and fun outside the home and spent time with other people. She has become confused about where she belongs and has spent time with another man which is against your marriage and hurtful to all of you. She needs to stop and come home to her family and you plan to give her the time and attention needed to stay a happy and loving family.

They don't need to hear about their family breaking up. They need to hear you care and want to keep your family together. Besides spending 15 + hours week together as a couple, spend 15 add'l hours as a family teaching the children about being thoughtful and caring towards others.

Pepperband... great ideas for the after talk with WW. I will use and memorize...

Graceful... love it. What I need to hear.

Good luck FLGUY.

You are much better prepared than she.
Stay calm.
Remember, you are functioning as a role model for your future men. Teaching them how a real man handles himself when there is a big problem.

In fact, you can use this later when WW tries to take you apart.

"I am showing our boys how a real man stands up for what he believes in. That's part of my 'most excellent promise'. To role model for our little men how a husband is supposed to behave ."

Do not be disappointed by her response. In fact, be prepared for her to be at her worst. You are not trying to 'preach & teach', you are showing her what a great HUSBAND you are. You are 'fighting for' her. OM is not. He's retreating with tail between his legs. A worthless bug. It's going to be difficult for her to acknowledge he wanted to use her for a piece of tail. YOU never say this. She will come to that truth on her own. It may take awhile. Stay on script, fighting FOR her. Don't fight or argue with a mad woman, no mater how big the bait. And, she will toss plenty of bait. <~~~ WW's when they can't easily get their way. Oh well .......... This insanity is temporary.

What most woman want ~~~> A man who will do battle for her.
My H and I are both in our 60s. He still fights for me. It's a love-bank deposit like no other!!!

I can't thank you all enough for this great advice. My Mom is also reading this thread and is in agreement with your assessment. She also scolded me on my terrible spelling so to all I am sorry for that! I will use the spell checker more often...

Hi MOM!

OK everybody. Leaving now to pick up boys from school and "the talk" I CAN and WILL be strong for my family.!

Thank you all for your help and please keep me in your prayers and thoughts.

I will update tonight.

FLGUY, I couldn't be more glad to see the heavy hitters coming out to give you advice on your thread. As always, I am in COMPLETE agreement with Pep.

Had you read all of the parts of this site that has to do with PLan A? There are a fair amount of threads where a BH has been given great advice on how to Plan A. The one I remember most recently is GJM. Mortorman is also a great resource. Remember, this is going to be a long haul, not a short stint. For BHs, you need to win the WW back to the marriage. That takes time, and TONNES of effort. And NONE of it will depend on your WW. THis is about YOU. Plan A is ONLY about YOU. It's about being the husband you could be.

Children young as 4 are old enough to understand in an age appropriate way. You simply state the facts.

That when people get married they do not mom's do not have a BF and dads do not have a GF.

Well mom has a BF and wants to leave me for the BF and break up the family.

Go! Mom!

Your son has some of the best people on here in his corner.

Well, we had the talk with the boys and I did and said everything as suggested. She was stunned and tried to stop me from talking mid way through. I calmly told her I wanted to finish speaking to the boys. And I finally said everything.

The boys were visibly upset and my wife kept telling them that it was not true. Now they keep asking why mommy wants to leave. I tell them to ask mommy and that daddy wants her to stay with us as a family.

She took me outside and asked what do I not understand, and that she does not love me anymore. Why would I want to be with someone that does not love me? I have to admit that it is a good question, but I replied that I made a commitment and vow to her, that I would love her and be by her side in good times and bad. She replies that it is over and we will never be together again. To just move on and be a good husband to someone else.

I was prepared for her wrath. It almost feels like a second exposure talk all over again. I keep telling her that I am trying to fight for our family and set a good example for our boys of how a MAN and Husband act when things get tough. She does not want to hear anything and just tells me that we are done. She said she feels like a punching bag and does not know what I will do or say next. I am always calm and say that I just want US to work together to save our family.

She is putting the kids to bed right now so I expect round #2 in a few minutes. God help me.

No it is just fog babble.

I am so proud of you Floridaguy.

Whenever she starts talking about how she doesn't love you, just tune it out -- remember Charlie Brown's teacher? Think of that "wah-wah-wah-wah" sound because that's all this fog from your WW is.

Good job FG! Just keep repeating the same things over and over... Your WW is in what is called the fog. Your mission now that you have completed exposure is to make your WW fall in love with you again, by showing her the guy that she walked down the aisle with (Carrot) while showing her exactly what a divorce will look like (Stick). There will be no "friendly" divorce. The boys' lives will be shattered. Maybe throw in a few statistics about kids from divorced homes.

Carrot and Stick of Plan A from Pep's signature.
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...flat&Number=2400725&#Post2400725

Stay calm. Good luck with round 2.

Well, you hit a home run! Keep your cool through her fog talk and just remember she is trying to make you into an abusive monster to justify her deceitful hurtful actions. Be cool as a cucumber.

I know you've exposed on WW's side and told your boys (excellent job), but who have you exposed to on OM's side?

Sorry, tried to read all the posts, but I missed this. Has FloridaGuy FB-exposed (or otherwise exposed) OM? Is he retreating? Who said so?

I agree that this isn't anything FloridaGuy needs to bother discussing or revealing to his WW; but nevertheless, it seems to me that in addition to what he's doing vis-a-vis his WW, FloridaGuy should also be firing some shots across POSOM's stern, close enough to burn the hair off his sorry [censored] -- basically to start sending this guy the message that, for POSOM, FloridaGuy's wife = way more hassle, trouble & maintenance than she's worth. (Not that actual threats should be made, but it'd not be unhelpful for the SOB to be made a little skittish about sleeping with both eyes closed, or at least to be staying up thinking about how fun it'll NOT be to sit in a deposition room or a court to have to tell his whole story...).
IMHO.

...and she can (since you can't stop her) get in the truck with enabling Mom and Dad and LEAVE....but the children stay with you!!! They have school, they have friends, and they have lives, that are not subject to WW's little fit of pique.

Make sure that gets relayed tomorrow as well.

BTW: You done GOOD, so far!

This is the part that is scary. He has done good so far, but that's not good enough. So far he's only employed the dreaded half-assed exposure that always comes back to bite our BSs in the [censored].

FG, you really have done well so far, but it WILL be all for naught if you don't nuke the POSOM's side of the fence as well. Like GO said, make it not worth his effort to pursue your WW any longer. If you don't, he will.

Bank on it.

Awesome job so far FG........finsih the exposure on the OM's side.

This killing the affair gig isn't so easy, is it? You've done some pretty brave and bold things already, and now we are asking you to do more. Thing is, we've seen it all, and we know how this will play out. If you've read as much as you claim, then you know this to be true. Get your butt in gear and get OM exposed too. Also, I would have a frank discussion with your FIL and ask him to help you by putting pressure on his daughter to end the affair.

WOW, just WOW.. Talk number 2 was nothing like I expected. She actually wanted to talk about US and was opening up to me. We actually sat close together for once and talked about meeting each others needs and what we would want IF we were to talk about reconciling.

She said she has always felt neglected and if I had only showed her this side earlier things might be different. WW is still set on leaving Friday but seemed open to "dating". Not sure if she is just trying to trick me or these are her true feelings. I am very surprised with the way our entire conversation focused on not just our past but future.

I plan to go nuclear exposure on OM's FB in the next hour. Gonna hit everyone on his friends list. This one will actually feel good!

I never thought talking to the kids today could actually help, but now I know that I MANED UP and told the truth and did what was best for my family. I will never EVER regret anything that I told those boys today. Thank you all for your great words of wisdom. Now, I will Plan A until my love bank is either empty or her's fills enough to work on things. I think today was a good step in the right direction. Now I have some NUKING to do!

A woman wants her man to fight for her.

How many FB contacts does he have?

Hit relatives and married friends first.

Have you seen this?

Okay, this is really good. What kind of template are you using for this POSOM's FB exposure? Do you need help there?

Okay, here's some help whether you need it or not. Don't want to assume you have seen these.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2558474#Post2558474

Remember to space your sends about a minute or so apart. You don't want to get shut down for spamming.

Thanks, I will use that exact template and be sure to space 1-2 mins apart. He has 264 FB friends so this also may take a while. I found POSOM on LinkedIN. He works at a small company and their website lists the entire email directory of his coworkers. About 30-50 in total. Should I light up his work also??

Tempting though that may be, it's not recommended to expose at work if the affair is not in the workplace. I suspect his workplace will get wind of it anyway, because of the FB exposure.

She may be planning on leaving on Friday, but you made her aware that the children will be staying in THEIR home, correct?

...but the children stay with you!!! They have school, they have friends, and they have lives, that are not subject to WW's little fit of pique.

FG, how did THIS part of today's discussion go?

This is NOT a small item, friend. I would suggest that RIGHT NOW, TODAY, this is more important to resolve than exposing to the lower half of POSOM's FB account.

12 hours late, but better late then never, great job.

And, when WW say's it's over ask her would not the best case scenario be for your kids to be raised in their one home with both of their parents married and in love with each other. With work that can happen again.

I would do it. Leave the OM no place to hide.

OK, Operation OM FB Nuke was completed last night. I also sent an email to him at work, with the company email directory attached, letting him know that the next text or call that he makes to WW this is the next list to learn of his philandering ways.

He just sent me a text to "grow the **** up, You don't scare me at all. I will stop talking to her. But you are not the reason. Now get off my di**."

As of this moment there has been no contact from OM to WW. I did receive a few FB Messages back from some of his friends but I am ignoring them. They were just really asking who I was. Nothing more.

I wanted to address Scotland, NG and TheRoad and keeping the kids at home. I am torn with the thought of breaking this deal. I have already agreed to the 1 week on and 1 week off sharing. Nothing in writing but verbally. How would I go about this? I have money for a lawyer but was hoping to keep them out of this.

If I change now her entire family will turn against me, and the boys need to see their mother. Everything up to now seems easy compared with the task that you are asking me to do. I'm just not sure i can do it.

Even if I wanted, how can I stop her from taking the boys? Could this backfire and be conceived as a major love-buster?

Please allow me to step in here on custody and love busting.
Marriage is a contract and custody law is a form of contract law.
Love busting if she interprets it that way but it is not listed as one of the top Love busters by Dr Harley

Oh and after getting that text I would expose to everyone in his company Yoda before he tells everyone that you are a crazy guy making false allegations against him

Do NOT allow her to take the children from
The marital home.
Do not leave your home. Agreements concerning custody are not done verbally.
If she is attempting to remove the children you should consult an attorney immediately

Have you exposed to your kids?

Letting her walk out the door with the kids will be a bigger love buster. This will come back to haunt you Floridaguy...that you rolled over and just let her continue on with her plans to break up the family.

You are afraid her family will be upset with you? Time for a FIL/SIL chat about the meaning of vows, family, and being a MAN. Can you meet him for a coffee this morning?

You have done so well don't go soft now.

How do I stop her? I just sent my attorney an email that I was beginning to have second thoughts about her taking the kids Friday and what can I do to stop her. She is usually good at getting right back to me.

Yes, kids have been exposed. Not sure they get what is going on. My oldest was very upset this AM and said he did not want to go to grandparent's house.

Pepper! Where are you?! Need your input in this too!

While you are on a roll, you also need to let the husband of skank neighbor know that your wives are catting around for men in nightclubs.

This was Pep's last post.

Try to stay calm Floridaguy. Deep breaths.

From my lawyer

"Because there is nothing filed, there isn't anything that can be done immediately. Because you are still married and there is no timesharing order, you both have eqaul rights to the children and can take them at any time."

Me to Lawyer - So she can just take the kids? Isn't that kidnapping?


Lawyer to me:

yes. And you can as well. It is not kidnapping because you both have equal custody rights. The only way to get any rules in place is to file for dissolution

I think you need to have a talk witrh your in-laws and get them to agree to cut off her escape route so that you can work on your marriage. Explain that you want your marriage to recover and you don't think it is a good idea for ww to go and live with them

Then you can work on plan A while filing for divorce.

Florida I was in the same boat last year.
I filed for divorce to protect my kids.

You may want to email Dr Harley and ask him about this.
I she is moving into her parents house you may not want to file for divorce.

I suggest you email him today for advice.
He will respond if you send the email ASAP

My DW I don't want you to leave but I cannot stop you. This will be very upsetting for the kids and I know you want the best for them. I believe that they should stay in OUR home with me. It would be best for the kids not to be shuttled back and forth every other week. They can visit you and grandparents in the evening and on weekends.

Something to that effect.

Also open the door for DW to decide to stay at least for a little while longer. Pick up some of things you talked about last night that might help.

Oh and one important point.
Dr Harley says do not help the wayward leave.
Don't pack boxes, load furniture etc

I just read this entire thread from the beginning, and I am simply amazed. FG - if every BH performed like you, divorce lawyers would have to retrain themselves for a new line of work.

x2!

Good going! BTW, talking with coach Steve or Jennifer is especially helpful at this turn you are in. I know Steve gave me very specific actions that re-channeled my WH.

Its easy to get intimidated by the fog talk. It helps so much to stayed plugged in here, radio show, coaching and so on. Otherwise, you start questioning your own logic and sanity. Dr Harley will warn that a withdrawn spouse can send the other spouse into withdrawal too--- and its true!

But your little boys need you to be strong. Having an addicted parent is traumatic. Just like you, they assumed their world (home) was benevolent towards them. As a family you all assumed there was meaning in being together. (love. committment to care for one another) And the horror of finding out your parent/spouse can so easily toss you aside is horrible no matter but to not have it in context is distorting.

Read/tell stories to them about building and renewal. ie Bob the Builder. New construction. Repairing old roads starts with an assessment, plan, putting up road blocks, heavy equipment to haul away old useless debris etc.

Or books about nature, rebirth and so on. These efforts will go along way to point to universal trusts.

How do I stop her?
1 Unload the kids' stuff from the truck. Get assistance from marriage-supporting friends if necessary.
2 Contact the school administration. Tell them your children's education will be put at risk.
3 Contact your IL's clergy. Ask them to dissuade ILs from aiding in the destruction of a family unit.
4 Tell the children they can stay with you if they want, and Mommy only wants them with her for cover so she can pursue her boyfriend.
5 Let the air out of the truck's tires.
6 Hand a copy of POSOMs threatening note to ILs. Explain that THAT particular POS is the person WW wants to help raise their grandchildren.

I'll think some more. Let me know when you've attended to ALL of these.

Yes. You need to have a come to Jesus meeting with your in laws

Thanks everybody...

As it stands now I cannot legally stop her from taking the kids. I will be sure to again ask that she not leave or at least keep the kids here but doubt she will change her mind. But that's not expected and that's OK. I just want to replant the seed that she is welcome to come back to our home. Offering her the "carrot".

It's maybe not a bad thing that she goes. And let me explain. Our home is pretty sweet. We live on a beautiful lake, in an awesome community, near all her and the kids favorite places. We have our own pool, kids toys, yard, dock, boat. It is also about 15-20 minutes closer to her work.

Her parents still have not sold their home up north and were not planning on anyone to live at their new home here in Florida. Their furniture is still at their home up north. It could be many months before their home sells. They are also broke now because they sunk all their money into this new home before selling their current house.

Now let me tell you about the new house where she is moving to...It's out in the country, with not much around. They have no cable right now, no couch, no beds, not kitchen table. Not much to speak of but boxes of her parents garage and attic. They brought down some old bunk beds and a blow-up mattress. They have a few kitchen items.

I am calling this the "STICK". I was the one that had to get the kids up everyday and to school. I usually picked up the kids from school each day also. She works very early in the AM. Now she needs to get up much earlier to get the kids up,dressed,and fed, take them to school, fight her way through the traffic that is REALLY bad where she now lives. And now fight her way back through traffic to pick the kids up from school. Help with homework, cook, baths, and put to bed. This is a woman who knows nothing about finances, never paid a bill in her life, knows zip of the world... Again this is the "STICK".

Meanwhile, I will have more time to pull the bass out of my lake, loose weight, keep my house clean, and be able to watch some damn sports on my big-screen when I want! Maybe is not going to be so bad.

So for now, plan A for me. Before I thought plan A was about my WW, but after some great advice on here, I finally see it is all about ME. I should have my copy SAA any day now and I will read/study and work on ME!

Thank you all SO MUCH for your support and kind words!

Advice that I was given when I was in your situation, I did not follow as I do not want a divorce, but I am now at a disadvantage for not doing it !

1) File for divorce ( if Florida is a fault state, cite adultry as grounds)
2) File a "temporary order" giving you full custody of the kids, make sure you document as much of WW's activities as you can. Go to the store and buy a spiral bound day planner, the kind that has 3 days per page. Write everything that you can remember in each of the days. Nights out etc need to be in there.

The temorary hearing has to be requested and does not happen by default.

You are then in a strong negotiating position with WW, and can ask her to commit to the recovery plan in the SAA book. starting with the no contact letter.

Southpaw - Good advice. I have been keeping a journal daily. I have all the chat logs, emails, text, fb messages. My lawyer was very proud of me because of the morality clause that FL has here.
I have all the papers needed to file. I will give it a few weeks to let the "stick" do its work.

I recommend that you file now.

I was like you and decided to wait and work on my marriage- then I received papers in the mail unexpectedly because she filed. Now she controls the divorce process, and I am at a severe disadvantage.

If you file first, then you have the stick of the carrot and stick process, you can cancel the divorce at any time when recovery steps are made.

If you wait - she is going to file, and your meddling in-laws will likely give her the money to do it. Don't let that happen.

Just my 2 cents !

Southpaw...Hmmm, very nice thinking.

I am starting to lean in that direction. I need the weekend to make a final sound decision but that sounds like a good next move.

I say file first as well.

The better stick for you will be you staying in your home with your kids (much better for them don't forget) and her having to go live in semi-furnished home in an inconvenient location.

If you think about it over the weekend won't she already be gone with the kids? Others may respond but wouldn't filing today be the best option?

FLguy, let me just say you are doing a fantastic job here. I applaud your strength and focus in this most difficult of times. It is the most painful experience a person will experience in a lifetime. Dr Harley has said many times it is worse than a loss of a child.

The steps you are taking today are laying the groundwork for a possible recovery. Being loving and kind while also having STRONG boundaries will gain her respect back for you. Do not..I repeat..do not be a doormat for her to wipe her feet on. I�m not implying that you are..I am just encouraging you to be cognizant of this as time progresses. Some of us that were in your shoes were scared that if we stood strong, we were going to run them off into the OM�s arms.

What are you willing to accept at this stage? What are you not?

I encourage you to read the false recovery thread here (don't have link) which discusses lessons learned by those of us unfortunate enough to experience one. There are stories discussing things which some of us wish we would have done differently at your stage to avoid a FR.

My FWW and I are 13 mo�s into our R. Let me just say that the FR we experienced has been the most difficult thing to deal with. Worse than the A itself. If you and your WW do start R (which I know you are not there yet), there are many things you can do to minimize the possibility of a FR. Just a word to the wise from a not so fortunate soul as myself. Please take the time to look this up and read it. I believe you will find it most insightful.

Best of luck. You are doing great. Be prepared for the rollercoaster ride of your life.


Add:Also, if you don�t have SAA, LB�s, FILSIL, and HNHN, please do so right away. They are tremendous. Highly recommend. SAA was extremely helpful and eye opening.

Floridaguy you are doing awesome. Its refreshing to follow a thread where a man is fighting hard to save his marriage. IMO it will eventually speak VOLUMES to your WW when the fog starts to clear, that you were willing to fight for her. It seeths care and protection.

Good to see you back 20Year!

Ditto.

Sounds like you're already doing a good job of this, but please read.
DOCUMENT DOCUMENT DOCUMENT

Also this is good information.

False Recovery
False Recovery-Need Voices of Experience

Do your wife's parents still believe she was wrongly accused? If so, have you provided them with evidence of affair and shown them the POSOM's response to your email? If you could convince your wife's parents to cut off her escape route, it would spare your kids a lot of heartache.

No, they know what is going on. My Mom also emailed them and explained that she herself had seen the texts and again offered proof. WW has just told them that SHE is unhappy and wants out of the unhappy marriage. I know they are disappointed and are trying to be supportive to WW and I.

They knew that WW was going to move into new home and bring 2 boys. They had a full 2 weeks to prepare and pack for this move. YET,they chose not to bring any furniture or just enough items for WW to scrape by.?.

FIL and MIL brought JUST enough so WW could be out of the house but not be comfortable.

Do you think they are trying to send her and a message? They don't want her to feel comfortable there. My parents and WW's are two old school Italian families that have been married to each-other for over 35 years. FIL was so upset when I left after helping them move. Gave me a bear hug and started to well-up. He is a proud man who knows his daughter is not making the right decisions.

I think moving out is good right now. Everyday she lays on that air mattress, and fights that traffic each day, my "stick" will be there whacking her in the head!

FG,

Awesome job thus far.

As an attorney, I don't think the "advantage" of filing first is that necessarily that advantageous. You have your snooping in place so unless you are getting signals that she's about to file, my opinion is, you don't need to just yet.

IMO (in my opinion)....to often, filing for divorce results in divorce whereas the initiating betrayed spouse was hoping for the filing to precipitate a recovery. I believe your wife has felt neglected and unloved. Accordingly, a filing sends confirmation and announces to the world that you don't care. It gives the wayward an excuse (he ended and not me) and further helps her rationalize and justify that she is on the right path (the path out of your marriage). She immediately tell the kids that despite all those kind words your said about trying to save their family the other night...that you went right out, hired a lawyer and filed for a divorce. It doesn't matter that that's what she intended to do. The fact you did it gives her an out and the opportunity to blame you. It's also a mixed message. You've been beating the drum that you are fighting for your family and marriage and then you go and file for divorce???

I also believe that Dr. Harley advises Betrayed Husband's to allow the wayward wife do all the heavy lifting with regards to a divorce/custody case. Her recent messages to OM very much reflect that she's at her wits end. It's hard work being a wayward...trying to compartmentalize your affair AND rationalize/justify it at the same time. Most wayward wives can't go to the dry cleaners, bank and beauty shop all in the same day...let alone hire an attorney and file dissolution papers. If she hasn't seen an attorney yet....I would sweat it.


I've read some harsh words towards her parents but I also noticed you've got a great relationship with them. Rather than getting upset with them...I would strategically (Art of War) attempt to dissuade them from enabling your wife. You should meet with them and remind them of your wedding day when, I presume, your FIL (father in law) walked your wife down the aisle and "gave" her to you. Remind them about what that means and ask them to do you a favor and CHANGE THEIR MINDS about allowing your wife to move in (escape) to them. Be kind in your dealings. Assure them that no matter what happens you intend to always maintain a relationship with them as well as allowing/promoting a relationship between your children and them (strategically say this with a hint of a threat that such relationship IS, to some extent, in correlation to the respect they have for your opinions regarding what they should be doing right now). Tell them...that in your opinion...as your wife's husband (which should be the most important opinion) that them backing off "enabling" your wife IS the best support they can give their child. Assure them too...certainly, if this all results in an actual divorce...that you, at that time, won't have any say how they choose to support their daughter or not. She'll be a single women and you'd expect her parents to be there for her but RIGHT NOW...she isn't a single woman and they need to respect you and your choices.

I agree to some extent that her moving out and living with her parents isn't all that horrible. If her parents aren't agreeable to your demand that they not allow her to move in with them...perhaps you can encourage them to fabricate a delay of one month. Maybe they tell your wife that they will allow her to come in April AFTER they have a chance to fully move in and AFTER she tries to figure things out with you for a few weeks. Perhaps THEY need time to assess their role in this before allowing her to come to them. Whatever the excuse...a delay would be great. After a month or so of "Plan A" if she wants to still move out to mom and dad's perhaps they will have got some more strength to say things like "you can't move here and continue a relationship with OM...if you need space for a bit to assess things fine but we aren't going to enable your affair which is precipitating the destruction of our grandchildren's family." Then with some boundaries in place on that side she CAN move out which would enable you to eventually Plan B her. (nothing worse than seeing a situation where one needs Plan B but the couple still lives under the same roof and the wayward won't leave).

Just don't agree to her moving out. You have the right to change your mind.


As far as the kids "moving out" with her....if you can't get in laws to forbid or delay her going there...perhaps you can get wife to agree to going without the kids on overnights. She's just going for some space...some nights...she can come and get the kids and go out to dinner, shopping...whatever but until you know that this is a permanent separation why disrupt their lives to such an extent when SHE isn't absolutely certain of what she wants. Put on the "understanding husband" routine...because you do understand that she's completely confused about her life. Her rationalizations and justifications were absolutely necessary to allow her to do something so hurtful and destructive to you and your family. She needs to unravel that and since she's "no contact" with OM things should improve gradually. Frankly...she's a mess and your compassion for that may allow you to convince her to slowwwwwwww down and take some time to think about things before disrupting the children's lives completely.


Good luck
Mr. Wondering

Keep your "proof" close to your chest so to speak.

If things go south and everyone is lawyered up...your snooping could be considered illegal eavesdropping in some jurisdictions. No sense handing them the evidence they may use against you someday. If they ask you for proof...read them things you found...don't give them copies. Maintain deniability. Plus...if WW finds out what you have and how you got it...you'll lose the ability to effectively snoop.

For example...instead of saying you installed a keylogger you can say you simply overheard a phone conversation. Waywards really don't remember when and where everything occurred.

Mr. w

Thanks Mr W.

Great, clear advice. I will hold off on the D papers. Perhaps that can be my final "stick" if she turns back to OM.

I get the kids back this Sunday @ 6pm. She is going to not see them for a week so that is going to hurt WW at her core. (more "stick") During that time I will offer "carrots" to see the kids and be involved with our family. Maybe that will give some time to make deposits into her bank.

I will get an email together this PM for FIL and MIL. I will hit on all your points.

Thanks again!

".."

I think her taking the kids is an important part of the "stick". The kids are not going to be happy there. And now she has to do ALL the work including taking and picking up from school. Plus, after our talk with them yesterday that will most likely be asking mommy "why she does not want to be our family". "When can we go home?" Also, me taking care of the boys will make WW into one BIG FAT CAKE EATER. She has her man at home taking care of the boys. She can see them any time she wants. I can go do what ever I want with OM or Skank neighbor. YIPPEE!!

No thanks... My MIL is staying there also and will be pushing to R and keep things moving in the right direction.

To me...filing for divorce isn't a "stick" in Plan A. It's when you are done and decide to divorce yourself.

If your Christian or other faith...such decision could be further complicated by the fact your wife hasn't (it appears from what I've read and you've indicated) ACTUALLY committed the physically act of adultery. Absent that..you may not have an actual biblical out of your marriage. Of course, such is a personal issue for you and your minister, priest, rabbi, ect to figure out in prayful contemplation.

I also don't know if you've read the MB response to the wayward's pleas for "space" or not...but you simply offer to clear them some space in the garage or basement as "needing space" is usually just bullcrap subterfuge for needing a private place to pursue and continue an illicit affair.


Another thing...if you Inlaws don't agree to keep her out now...perhaps they'll agree that if you can prove that she's moved out so she can continue her affair at their house that THEN they WILL ask her to leave. That they won't be parties to the destruction of their grandchildren's family. Inlaws can use the carrot and stick approach too.

[btw...when my MIL was exposed to ...she immediately called OM and threatened him and directed him to end it....he did. Inlaws can and have done the right thing]

Godspeed,
Mr. W

What huge POS this OM is.

Expose this POS at work now so the OM catches some flack at work on Friday before the weekend.

Well your doing good there FL keep it up and you got awesome advice here and you seem receptive to it. Please do not overlook NG's post about preventing the kids from going with your foggy addled WW. Follow that, I regret that I didn't...

Floridaguy. The problem with not having a chat with your FIL is that he is only hearing WW side of the story and we all know what that is full of.

It important for your ILs to know that you want to recover the marriage and do NOT want your family to be broken up. Part of exposure is asking for help from important people to influence the wayward to do the right thing. That is what you need to do with FIL. Ask for his support to stop his daughter from breaking up her family. There is no good that will come from that.


Also give your WW a plan on how you will change yourself to protect her from your past wrong doings. She needs to believe that you will change.

FG, despite what you are thinking her moving out is NOT a good idea. Now that this guy is off running scared, you need to have her close for your plan A to be most effective. If you are talking reconciliation you should bring up the No contact letter and the extraordinary precautions in the next conversation. Of course at the same time you let her know you want to create a marriage better than the one you had pre-A. That you are committed to meeting her needs, so that she will love you more than ever.

What is your wife's side of the story? Has she stated why she is so unhappy? Have you identified her top emotional needs?

Dr. Harley says you need a minimum of 15 hours of time where you give each other undivided attention, to sustain a feeling of romantic love. 20-25 hours to create it. You need to work in that much time into your plan A.

I agree that getting the in-laws to pressure your wife into staying at home for the while is the best solution to the problem.

Another thought...

IF she moves to her parents...another thing to ask your inlaws is whether you are still invited to and in their home. They should be having big Italian meals and inviting the entire family over...including you. They will need to tell your wife that they are free to have anyone they choose into their home. She is a guest...not a resident.

BetrayedP is right...ideally you want to Plan A with her living with you in the family home, however, this is FAR better than her living with OM or by herself in some crappy apartment free to do as she chooses. Hopefully you can convince her parents to be parents and not enablers. They may even facilitate giving you two a lot of alone time (which was the very idea of them moving down to be near you in the first place...they wanted time with their grandkids NOT a boomerang daughter). They could have you over for dinner and suddenly...you two are outside on the deck sipping wine while the inlaws are looking after the kids inside or running the kids out for ice cream.

Mr. Wondering

edited to add: plus...even if the kids visit her and stay over...it's just a visit to the grandparents and not "mom's new residence". Also...it's a huge plus that you know for certain the kids aren't going to be exposed to OM.

Ditto.
There are some exceptions, but this situation is not one of them.

I'd be tempted to write back (to all the FB & LinkedIn contacts of his) including his direct quote (to show everyone how classy he is) plus a respose of "Get off my wife, or you may not have a di** for much longer." ...

And yeah, I'd share a copy of it with everyone in the company directory, so that they could see what a fine, principled, stand-up guy their colleague is.

But that's just me being angry for ya. Go with Mr Wondering's advice when it comes to this stuff.

It's what I would do, but you know me. You throw some garbage like that at me after messing with my wife, and I'm gonna unleash a crapstorm on your life you wouldn't freakin' believe.

And, yeah, I'm pissed off for you too. I know I couldn't in any way, shape, or form restrain myself the way you have after that response.

No...damned...way.

WW took the boys to IL's after school today. Came home and was very friendly. Talking and joking with me. No mention of OM exposure and can't confirm any contact to or from OM today.

She put the kids to bed and packed up most of her clothes. I made sure not to help in anyway. She walked right by me and said she was tired and going to bed.

And that is that...

I recieved my copy of SAA and His needs Her needs today. I will start studying and continue plan A. This sucks...

Have you read - really READ - the Plan A thread here? If you think today's situation sucks....you're in for a rude shock, dude!

Thanks NG... Losing it right now.

Florida,

Please email Dr Harley for his advice as to Pliny for divorce or not.
He does not charge for this service.
He can tell you what to do for the immediate future.
If you email him tonight he will usually reply the following day.

Losing it right now.

I feel for ya, amigo, but personally have no words to help you. But, as my Dad told me years ago, "Engineers don't know everything, but they sure as hell know where to find it!", I'd direct you to look up GJM's thread on this Board. He Plan A'd excellently, right up until the gavel came down on his divorce.

You do realize that this will be all YOUR fault Floridaguy. That is how waywards think. They see themselves as justified and nothing is their own fault.



Have you thought about writing a love letter that addresses your mistakes, your willingness to fix them and how you do not want her to leave? She can re-read it when she gets "whacked in the head."

You have to be able to look yourself in the mirror and know that you did everything you could. You are the only sane person left to fight for your kids family. I still think you need an in person chat with FIL to get his support and respect.

MrWondering's advice makes an awful lot of sense to me.

In my case, I filed first and it gave me no practical advantage. In fact, it may have put me at a financial disadvantage because I had to pay my attorney to draw up all of the documents.

Please read this as Plan A for a BH.

GJM's Thread

Here's another good thread.
Guys. Come on. Assualt the Ambush

I would love to say or you won't have a di#k, though do not send anything that can be taken as a threat. Then the Puss ere I mean POSOM can use the cops to go after you.

Though I would send all of his co workers a copy of his post included in OM's work place exposure.

The way I understood it is painting a picture of what life would look like post divorce is a "stick", since most WS think that they will continue to cake eat after divorce is final, by having lovely family outings and a nice friendship with the betrayed spouse. The stick is exposure and the stick is I will not be your doormat anymore when it comes to wayward behaviour.

Dear POSOM,

Thanks so much for your quick response to my communication. There are still a few points I must clarify, however:

�"grow the **** up,� You seem to be misinformed. I am a grown man with a family. I�m sure you�ll understand if I summarily reject �maturity� advice from an entity that 1) recklessly pursues a known married woman, 2) hides from the consequences of his actions, and 3) communicates in such a vulgar, grammatically-deprived manner.

�You don't scare me at all.� My communications are not designed to invoke a fear of me. If you don�t have the mental acuity to fear the long-term consequences of your own actions, if you fail to fear the pain, confusion, and lingering emotional instability you�re bringing into your own life, then you simply don�t understand the situation you�re in. You shouldn�t fear me, you should fear your own lack of reason, respect, and judgment, and where these obvious character flaws will lead you.

�I will stop talking to her. But you are not the reason.� Thank you. This is the sole purpose of my communication with you. I expect you to cease all contact with my wife. I care not that I am �. . . not the reason.� Do it for WW. Do it for yourself. Do it for the simple fact that your previous contact with a married woman was wrong, and now that your contemptible behavior is exposed, breaking all contact with this married woman is to be expected from someone with an IQ that even marginally approaches triple digits.

�Now get off my di**." Sadly, it appears you�ve mistaken me for my wife. However, I can assure you we�ll both be staying off it. Forever. Bank on it, POSOM.

Sincerely,

FG

Thanks everyone for your great replies and support on this thread.

I don't think I will reply to OM's text. I see ZERO communication from him to her. She has no idea of the phone tracker and GPS in place. I have all fb and email passwords. She has already asked him to stop over a week ago and it looks like they are off. I realize that is for now and could change at any time. I think the work exposure threat really scared him. I keep that in my back pocket. The EA was only a two weeks and they only met that first night so there is hope that maybe they are over.

Now, I have a foggy wife that just want's nothing to do with me. Mr Wondering really hit the nail on the head when he described my WW and neglected and unloved. After reading the first 4 chapters of SAA last night it is so clear that I was Jon.

It's becoming more clear to me now, and if we cannot R it may be my greatest sorrow of my life. The guilt I feel now is just overwhelming. HOW could I take this most special person for granted like this? Why?? She was screaming in the inside and I was just to naive or proud to listen. This in no way justifies what she did. But I can understand why she is so afraid to want to try to make it work.

So still into plan A. Her stuff is all packed up. My question is how often should i be contacting her? Is a text in the AM OK? Is asking her how her day is going to much? Should I just give her space right now?

Have you told her this?

You are getting so much great advice and help FG.

Please stay alert and ready to easily pivot. Note the advice here will help you do so.

My basic point is not to get too glued down to your own present strategy and mislead yourself. Because your wayward wife is in a fog and likely believes she will enjoy cakewalking you for the long haul, you can be lead to believe your plan A is getting you somewhere now when you are just in the beginning stages.

From your posts here this is what is sending alarms:

1. She is sending mixed messages. She is being friendly towards you while sticking to her wayward plans. Don't get me wrong. I am glad she is noting and responding to your friendliness and attempts to show extraordinary care. This is exactly what you want her to do. Having your 'unconditional love' in her recent memory banks and knowing she is welcome back is good for now. (carrot)

2. Mainly my concern is what you are attempting to tell yourself about your 'stick.' I'm just saying your passive type stick where your wife is living at your in-laws may or may not be the 'stick' you imagined. This situation where she is a part-time single woman again, a Mom sometimes, and enjoying your care in her new edited wife role may have more benefits to her than you can imagine right now.

There have been many great suggestions thus far but you could likely really use guidance from Dr Harley or his coaching team.

It seems like a complacent approach with little fight to keep her at home. I too think this may come back to haunt you.

I hear your dose of reality plan but I'm not sure that your wife is going to react the way you are hoping. She is surrounded by enablers who will possibly only fuel her anger at her circumstances.

Have you done everything you can to keep her at home?

Yes your wife was neglected over a long period of time. I'm sure you were doing what a lot of men do and focus heavily on providing. I got this from your description of your very nice home environment. I'm sure she appreciates all the nice stuff. But all the nice stuff did not help her feel loved and cared for by you when not receiving time for UA and meeting her emotional needs.

Its this reasoning that has lead me to worry about you misleading yourself. You have to appreciate she is willing to give up all the nice stuff and maybe even her children and her own self respect (at some point) to be able to get out there and find love on her own terms.

Its going to take lots of time and extraordinary care to rebuild. It won't happen over night. It will take time for fog to lift. She may never feel remorse either. It takes a certain amount of humility to rebuild and recover. Facing yourself while facing your wife's pain is very very hard. Consider visiting your doctor. Some need antidepressants rx.

Yes, I told her these exact words last Saturday night and Wednesday night. She told me that she was glad to hear them. But it is to late.

I want her to stay home. But she already has everything packed up. Most everything is already in her car. She is going and nothing I can say will stop her.

Maybe the "stick" isn't the "stick" after all. Maybe this is just getting what she wants.

DEAD ON AGAIN!! I am taking xanax prescribed from my doctor since Monday. She did not know and must have seen my prescription last night when packing. As SOON as she closed the door in her room last night she goggled XANAX side effects on her phone. That made me think that she thinks I am doing these crazy things as a side effect to my meds.

Yes she has a nice smorgasbord to choose from. She is protecting herself from pain.
She does not want to have pain anymore. Lots and lots of so called good people will want to help her not have pain.

Should I email what I am feeling or hold off? I do not want to make it seem that I am feeling needy. It's not going to change her mind now.

Florida.
Please exercise.
Exercise kills depression and makes you more attractive to your wife.

Thanks Jedi. I have lost a ton of weight in the last weeks. Hitting the treadmill daily and it does help.

And when she leaves you will be home alone for a week.
You dont have control over her actions. But you do have control over your own actions.
How will you respond?
Will you get drunk?
Behave poorly?

Or will you respond in a healthy way?
What are your plans for the week?

If you're not involved with a church I would find one to go to.
Most have Wednesday night bible study and it's a good place to find moral support from good men.

Well Mom and Dad are flying in for a planned visit for the week. That may be why she needs to leave now. I don;t think that she wants to face them. I have the kids starting Sunday for the rest of the week.

There is always potential she will gaslight you to justify. She will want to help others especially her parents to perceive you as the cause of her pain and reaction to her said pain. Of course this is why you need to plan A.

Since your wife is leaving now --call the Harley's, OK? Time to regroup.

I already notified the school. They will be keeping an eye on them.

I just asked her to maybe stay a few more days. That my Mom and Dad could postpone their visit.

She just replied "Me staying a few more days or a few more weeks is not going to change anything. We need to move forward."

Plan a date(s) with her alone. ie Nice restaurant. Practice intimate conversation (IC) as described in HNHN. No relationship talk though. IC is not about problem solving.

Make sure the time together is enjoyable and safe for both. Sometimes walking and talking is enjoyable and easier. Walk after dinner? Think ahead about topics you know she enjoys. Try your best not to seem like you are trying too hard. might seem insincere. She may attempt to cause you to react to her negatively. Don't take the bait. She is in a state of withdrawal and will not easily allow love units to be deposited in her bank at this point. You will need to plug away for the long haul. It can be maddening.

Come here to vent.

That seems to be my plan. I will try to go drama free for the rest of the this and next week and maybe she will have a good cooling off period.

I wouldn't beg her to stay.
That's not attractive to a woman.

Did you email Dr Harley yet?

You are attempting to negotiate with her which is understandable. She does not want to negotiate or problem solve with you.

Go full bore with plan A. Frankly I do not know how you specifically will need to do the stick part of the plan A. Others have given you suggestions. Or you can call or write the Harley's.

But I know plan A is about meeting important emotional needs. You are being shut down w/direct problem solving efforts which likely seem self serving from your wife's foggy perspective. But if you put your time, talents and efforts into meeting her needs by starting with IC and dropping the problem solving mode during times you designate as UA time with her you might give her pause.

I did not email him. I am not sure even where to begin.

Building on g2b's thoughts....

Do something nice for the kids.
Do something nice for ILs (Grit your teeth - privately - but DO it!)
Write her positive, hopeful notes.
Call each night and ask about their day - hers, kids' - and tell them how GREAT yours was!
Get in shape.
Dress better than ever.
Watch the alcohol intake.
Ask to attend to her vehicle needs. (I had Bride in tears one time when I - unasked - changed her wiper-blades!)

Now for the TOUGH part - You have to do ALL this while repeating to yourself, "We will probably divorce anyway!"
In other words: NO EXPECTATIONS!

Floridaguy. I just want to say that you are doing great. I know you don't feel it right now but you will get through this and you will come out a stronger and better person. I can say that because you have found MB and that is what happens to people who come here and take on the principles.

Try to stay strong and be the person you can be proud of. You cannot change the past. Keep working on your side of the street. That is the only thing you can control. Know that you can look your boys in the eyes and be proud of how you handled things.

Cool, calm, strong, and in control is very attractive.

Did you have the talk with your FIL ?

This is what I need NG!!! Keep them coming!

No, I am not going to cause anymore drama for at least the rest of this weekend. I need to slow down somewhat and Plan A because she thinks I have cracked.

I'm glad your not pursuing emails or continuing communication with OM. It was a two week EA. He could have been anybody. Your wife certainly doesn't see him as the problem in your marriage. She sees YOU as the problem. So I think working on the figurative "problem" (you)...is a much more productive use of your immediate time.

I also don't think focusing on the stick in this situation is going to be as productive because, as I pointed out before, your wife hasn't actually committed adultery (that we know of) yet. You've given her some pretty good "sticks" lately...exposure and the talk with the kids, so focusing on more "carrots" is in order.

Another tangent thought - two week emotional affairs with a stranger(OM is not some old boyfriend) would, I figure, be just about the easiest affairs to give up. Certainly monitor for contact but it's quite likely that it's really over. Your battle is now with a wayward THINKER rather than a continuing affair. I also wouldn't expect her to suffer from much withdrawal because she wasn't that invested and hadn't gone completely down the slippery slope.

That doesn't make this any easier. In 8 years here I've seen easy situation fail and really really hard impossible situations recover. There's only so much you can control. You can make changes...permanent changes...you can be the light summoning your spouse back home but at some point the wayward has to decide to change too (or to repent). Please try to avoid expectations. This is your life ...it's an individual situation. You can read all the stories you want here and on every forum and it won't matter if your wife just doesn't come around. You've done so great so far. This is a GREAT thread. But your successes busting up the affair are only the initial steps necessary to give yourself, your marriage and family a chance. I gets harder from here and keeping your expectations in check is key to keeping a level head and fighting this battle to the best of your ability. Realizing I couldn't control the outcome helped me persevere through the battle. You make changes because it's the right thing to do...not to get your wife back. Her coming back is her decision.



Finally...your medical decisions are your own to make with your doctor. That being said, Xanax, to me seems like overkill in this situation. I can see a mild anti-depressant to help you cope (I believe many have taken Wellbutrin) but Xanax has, in my NON-medical opinion only, too much of a numbing effect in a situation where feeling and expressing your feelings is necessary. You need to be at the top of your game both physically and emotionally...not buzzed or numb. Even perhaps something like adderall or something like that to help you focus and concentrate at work only might help (because losing your job isn't an alternative right now). Further...the last person you should have told you were taking anything, let alone Xanax is your wife. She's quite likely to add it to her list of justifications and rationalizations. Plus, she'll see it as you using a crutch when you want her to perceive you as the tough strong family man fighting for his family and the wife he loves.

Mr. Wondering


p.s. - "Word" to your mother (Hi Mom!). When are your parents coming to visit? You could use the support and some force interactions with an extended family could be helpful too. Your wife needs to see the reality that this affects multiple layers of her children's entire family. Of course, many times MIL/Daughter in Law relationships have their own strains so this advice may depend on their relationship. It's also a good distraction from the seriousness of recovery. You can't make recovery always about recovery. Distracting from the seriousness and having fun together, with or without family, may actually make more love bank deposits than constant seemingly forced serious discussions. Be attentive & fun...like when you were dating her versus needy and desperate like an ex-boyfriend begging for a second chance.

I have to laugh at Mr W "wayward thinker" vs wayward --something I l know so well!

I've had this image (bear w/me).....

Anyone, remember "Stepford Wives" movie? Where the Stepford wives' brains/minds were removed for a robotic brain that performed to their husbands liking?

It seems "the fog" does the same thing but the other way around! Switches wife/husband brain for wayward brain is =new speeches, motives, actions, where-with-all and so on!

I actually believe this is good to keep in mind ! (sorry pun)

Until 'fog' is lifted (brain switched back) expectations have to be in check as discussed.

Could this be why often waywards show no remorse. Can't remember operation?

Thanks Mr W. All great points as usual. I did not tell her that I was taking Xanax. She must have seen them in my bathroom closet last night when packing. I really did not want her to see that either.

Mom and Dad will be here at 8:30 tonight and I cannot wait. I need them more than ever!

I will plan A for me. Just going to try to make deposits when I can. I know this very likely will not lead to a R but I will know that I will be a better person in the end.

Lastly, Mom, I know you are reading this. YOU ARE MY ROCK! I love you so much! Thank you for always being there for me! I will get through this! And please don't be angry with me when I don't finish eating my plate this week. I gotta ween off the carbs!

Hi Mom! All the best taking care of your grand babies!

I am a grandma too and wonder how I would help my adult child and grandchildren in this type of crisis.

I wondered about the Xanax rx too. Its can be very addictive especially mixed w/alcohol. You'll find Dr Harley and coaching support antidepresent but have concerns for anything numbing your feelings too. Harley's like Wellbutrin. I found myself too sensitive to all antidepresents. it made it easier for me to accept fuzzy fog logic. I'd buy into wayward thinking and kept believing my husband was following the MB plan but he was doing just enough to cakewalk me. I was not paranoid. I was rapanoid--which is a made up word and means the opposite of paranoid. Its about being cautious and keeping your expectations low.

I will stop the meds starting now. My last pill was yesterday afternoon. With Mom and Dad here, their love and support should be all I need. I never have taken pills before in my life and very rarely drink. This is not the time to start now.

I wanted to talk to you about this for a second.


It's a trick question. (As in: "When did you stop beating your wife?")
Your response was good.


If/when this sort of thing resurfaces (it probably will), here are my suggestions. You manage this sort of trick question by asking questions of her.

You don't need to answer her questions. You lead. You manage the topic of all conversations. (like you did in your above response)

What part of breaking up our family makes sense to you?
Why not learn to meet each other's needs and fall back in love?
Why quit before really trying to fix this?
Why do you think running away from our family commitments makes sense?
Sit here. Now tell me what we can do as a team to make this family strong & happy.

This will frustrate her. Because, everything that does not support her decision to break up the family will frustrate her. So be it.

When you cannot think of any response other than "Are you NUTZ?" ..... Use these 'pocket comments' .... you keep them handy:

That's an interesting point of view.
I see.
I understand you disagree with me. Nevertheless, I must hold true to my values.
I value our family too much to throw us away.
My self respect would not permit me to abandon my vows.
Divorce teaches kids to give up.

You are doing great.
This is difficult stuff.

Since your mom and dad are coming for a visit, and grandparents make such good babysitters, would your wife ever agree to a weekend away? Last minute weekend vacation someplace romantic? She is welcome to see it as a 'last hurrah' if she wants, but YOU will know it is a prime opportunity to Plan A like a mofo and sweep her off of her feet. Even if she comes back on Monday and proceeds with the move out plans, it will be a great last impression (and hopefully, then, not the last).

Meanwhile .... start making fun filled plans with the boys. Always invite WW to participate in front of the boys.

As in:

"I was thinking our family needs some zoo time. Let's all take a trip to the zoo on Saturday. We can have a contest to see which zoo animal looks the most like Daddy."

"Let's go to Pirate Island. Our pretend Island. We will listen to Pirate music, wear eye patches, and beards and and dig for buried treasure in the back yard." (hide treasure the night before)

"Boys, Mommy looks like she needs something pretty. Let's go buy her something pretty." (give each son $5 and take them to the dollar store) Have them wrap the pretty things and present the love offerings to her.

"Boys, lets color and draw. Mommy, do you want to color & draw with us? We're going to draw what we love, what we want to be when we get big, and what we think God looks like."

See ..... Plan A your wife by being a stellar Dad. Go above and beyond your previous efforts. If/when WW can't be bothered to join in .... you simply say; "We will miss you this time. Maybe next time?"

Then ..... BE HAPPY !!!! Be JOYFUL !!!! Laugh. Sing. Act goofy. Entertain the boys.

I know you are joking and I know you do need support. In these situations I am often reminding the Betrayed Spouse that "YOU MATTER TOO" especially in the face of a wayward with an overactive fully entitled taker that's pounding the "me...me...me...what about me drums" all over the place. HOWEVER, your wife perception right now is that SHE, not you, is the victim. It may not be that productive if she is given the idea that your mommy and daddy are coming to support you in this time of need. Her thoughts MAY instead go to "where were mommy and daddy while their son was neglecting me" and "have you told them what YOU did". Behind closed doors your parents can support you individually...but publicly (in front of DIL and/or in-laws), they need to play very carefully and politically. Your parents will have plenty of time to dislike or be angry with her IF she divorces you...but right now, you two are married, she's still "family" and the MARRIAGE needs the support of ALL parents. MIL...especially must tread lightly.

Part of Plan A is to paint a picture of the life she will be without, if there is a divorce.
Most waywards *think* that you will play "happy divorced family" if she separates.

Plan B (should it become necessary) stops meeting those family oriented ENs. Certain ENs cannot be met by a turd-OM. Family time. Family memories.

Make home life fantastic. Something she will miss.
Out of the blue, blurt out:

"You know what I was just thinking? I was thinking about the day (son) was born. I remember the...." (then, tell the beloved story).

Do this with other memories. Not all at the same time. Pepper awkward silences with ... (you chuckling) "Remember the Christmas when Santa forgot to ...."
Or, "I'll never forget the Easter we died all those eggs and (whatever happened)."

Shared history is your secret weapon. It can be sad shared history as well.
"I was thinking about the time Grandpa died. You showed me so much care & compassion. Thank you for that."
You get the idea.
Dig around and find things that were memorable to both of you.

Now, she may not be open to direct compliments at this time .... however .....
Think about a friend of hers you may run into. Tell that friend that your wife is the "most gorgeous creature on Earth". Tell persons who are most likely to share that with WW.

If WW is not hostile to compliments .... how do you intend to do that?

You should talk with your in laws though. Go over there and let them know where you stand. i.e. that you love their daughter and will do everything within your power to keep the family together. Ask them for their support. It can't hurt right?

If you do this, be prepared. Like a Boy Scout Ninja.
Anticipate their questions/concerns and know your MB-based responses.
Do not ask them to answer any "Why" questions.
Know the 'talking points' you want to make.

It might be best to meet in-laws in neutral territory. Offer to buy them lunch in a cafe.

Yes if my DIL and for my grandchildren I'd make myself part of the solution. Help my son/or daughter w/plan A. Babysit while my son dated DIL. Keep sad and upset feelings to myself. Especially keep my feeling in check in front of grandchildren.

I'd want to help grandchildren feel good about themselves. Help them see renewal and rebuilding in nature. Read books to that affect. Point out budding new plants and flowers. Talk about friendships and caring. Reach out to others in a thoughtful way. Play games that encourage cooperation. Have fun. Be stable.

Hand the bottle of Xanax to her and tell her that you are feeling strong and do not need pills to get through this.

Bite your tongue when you want to tell her that she is going to need them more than you

I did ask her... We always love Jamaica and I offered to take her Friday night for a long weekend. Or perhaps Miami. She laughed and said she had to get the boys room together. That is a great idea though.

This is the email I would send to dr Harley:

Dr. harley,

My name is Florida and I am in need of your advice. I am familiar with your basic concepts and am active on the MB Forum.

My wife and I have been married XX years. We have XX children.
We have lived independent lifestyles and my wife recently had an emotional afai with a man she met at a bar. I exposed the affair and he sent me a threatening message but said he would stop contacting her.
I am spying on her and believe the contact has ended.

She says she is done with our marriage and wants out.
This weekend she is moving into her parents home.
We have verbally agreed to exchange the kids every week.

I am in plan A and need to know what to do.
Should I continue plan a or go into plan B?
Should I see an attorney or file for divorce?

Thank you,

Florida.

My phone number is:
My address is:

Awesome stuff Pepper as always. Great ideas. Will be great for the boys too.

Thank you Mr W. My mom sent WW this text this AM

"We are going to come down and want to be there as support for (sic) you and the boys We still care for you and still consider you as our daughter and that will never change Dad and I are hoping to see you while we are there"

WW reply "That means so much to me. I want to see u too"

I just texted WW that we are going to the strawberry festival tomorrow. And asked her if she and kids wanted to join. She just texted back maybe and she would let me know tonight.

She loves the Strawberry festival so we will see.

Thanks Betrayed... No more drama from me right now. Carrots, Carrots, Carrots... Gotta fill that bank like a mo' fo' !!

Great question responses Pepperband - I can use these !

Your mom is an angel for sending that text to WW.

Methinks "MOM" has been learning a LOT of Plan A while reading along.

Strawberry festival sounds great! Have fun! I agree that lots of carrots are in order. The journey has just begun.

Ok. Just in case there was any doubt...I meant for her to dispose of them. I would never condone giving someone something that was not prescribed to them.

Sorry. Dispose of prescription drugs properly.

Another good post.

WW just left with the boys. She came home and packed up some of their clothes and the rest of her personal items.

It really was not that bad surprisingly. While she was packing, I did something with the boys that I never took the time to do before.... We colored!...and it was awesome. I know the boys really appreciated it. I asked them to draw what paradise looked like to them and they both drew the secret desert island park that we so love to visit here in Florida.

They drew and I colored. I would have NEVER taken the time to do something like that before Pepper's advice here earlier today. Don't get me wrong, I always spend time with the boys but usually with things like homework, or sports, or video games, or with the computer. But nothing creative like this and it was awesome! They both drew Mommy and Daddy and themselves together in their picture holding hands. They were so proud and wanted to take the picture home to hang on the fridge at Nonna's and Pop Pop's. WW will probably not go along with that but my boys seemed to have a plan.

No mention of the festival tomorrow with WW. I did not even bring it up. I did not really say anything to WW. I was just being the best DAD and Father that I could be.

I am holding up OK and can't wait till Mom and Dad get here in a few hours. Got to make it till Sunday @ 6pm to see my angels again.

Thanks again for all your thoughts and prayers.

Coloring is a great way to get boys to talk to you about their feelings. Just so you know ... Laying on your belly next to them, on the floor, and coloring & talking is bonding time. When they tell you about what they have drawn, they are opening up to you.

Good job!!!

PS
For some reason, kids will feel more free to talk if you are all on the floor together. Equal footing, I suppose.

Great job!

Your children will remember these times.......Daddy coloring with us, daddy reading to us, etc.

Logan's Run just reminded me of something .... Take your boys bowling.
Invite Mommy.
But take those little dudes bowling.
Prepare to laugh.

FG, you're doing so great! Keep going, friend.

Florida,


I am just now getting into reading your thread here, brother.
It sounds like solid foundations are being put down.


If there is one, and only one, secret I can share that caused a huge turn around in winning my wife back from withdrawal, it would be CONFIDENCE.


Calm, cool, confidence.



I found that confidence in one simple realization; that I could quite easily drop this marriage based on my wife's infidelity and cruelty, and go on and thrive... but I chose to fight. I didn't need my wife, I chose her.

From that point, it was then my job to demonstrate that I was the best choice for her... and I had to demonstrate that.

And that started... with confidence.



What follows, sir, is completely silly, and completely serious.


Youtube, radio, mp3, cell phone. When you get ready in the morning each day - I want you to be clean and sharp. Look good, smell good... and as you are getting ready, I want you to look in the mirror and sing to yourself. I am going to post a song... but you might find your own inspiration elsewhere. That inspiration should say, in your heart "I am the MAN, I am THE BEST CHOICE, and SHE WILL CHOOSE ME."



Soulja Boy tell 'em!
Hopped up out the bed,
Turn my swag on,
Took a look in the mirror said what's up
Yeah I'm getting money (oh)

Turn my swag on,
It's my turn, now turn it up
Yeah, yeah
I put my team on, and my theme song
Now it's time to turn it up
Yeah, yeah


Ridiculous... but that's part of the point.

Prepare to have a wonderful time. The boys will have a blast and they get to wear funny shoes.

Thanks HHH. I have lost so much weight in the last few weeks that nothing really fits me anymore. I am heading right to the mall tomorrow early AM for some new swag!

Another confession. I have never been bowling...EVER. Kids will be probably laughing at me! Great Idea!

Man .... wouldn't we all love to see those photos.

Well, since you are bringing the kids, you could always ask for gutter bumpers!

I recently did that with my WW and DS we all had a blast. 1st time for DS who is 4 and WW and I used to bowl our butts off while dating. Like one poster said take photos!

Just an idea for when your boys return. Make and frost cupcakes. Have toppings, sprinkles, skittles, pretzels, etc ready. When they return, invite WW to join you and the boys to decorate.

Thanks LR. Good idea.

Not much to report today. Last night was WW's first night away and she texted me a few times (more than usual). Asking if my parent's flight got in OK, giving updates of what the kids were doing etc. She also called first thing in the AM so kids could say good morning. She even asked what my plans were today.

I could see from the gps tracker that she was pretty much just sitting in the house with the boys all day. Still ZERO contact from OM or to OM.

No sure if I made a mistake but I texted her today.

Me "Any plans tonight?"
WW "Just hanging with the boys"
Me " Wine Bar?" ( new local place we always wanted to go to)
WW "I'm making dinner and then just feel like staying in. Thanks anyway."
ME " OK have a great night :)"

So, not much going on as I said... Can't wait to see the boys tomorrow!

FG,

I spent two hours last night reading your posts. I could not stop reading and like so many on here am very proud of how strong you are.

You honestly have the best of the best on here helping you so there is not a lot for this rookie to say. I just had a few thoughts and questions for you.

1. Does your wife still talk to or have any contact with your neighbor BEEP WORD that she went clubbing with? Has her H been informed of what was/is going on? I think she is just as dangerous as any contact with the OM.


2. Another thought I had, some people on here suggested you write your wife a love letter. It think this is a great idea! I think you should share with her some of the heart felt things you have shared with us on here about wanting to change and not being there in the past. I also think that putting the love letter in one of Dr. H's books (His Needs, Her Needs might be perfect), wrapping it and giving it to her might be a good idea. Just a thought.


3. Last but not least, I have to share with you how a wayward in a fog thinks....they don't!!! They are living in la la land. They think the grass is greener on the other side because the fog is hiding the beautiful roses on their own side of the fence.

I am a FWW. Even before I started my A, when it was just a "friendship" and I started getting foggy I started looking at my H in a different way.

Looking back now, I see how incredible stupid I was but no matter what my H did or said when I was foggy, I was not happy. Your wife stuck her head in the fog. Even if she did not have an actual affair, her head got stuck and is still stuck in the fog.

My hope is that she can get out and see the roses but no matter what happens, you keep making those roses beautiful for YOU!!!

You are in my thoughts and prayers!!!!!

WW called right after my last post. Oldest Son had an ear infection a few weeks ago and he was having really bad ear pains again.

I raced up to WW's house with his ear drops and meds. It was nice to see the boys for a minute and hopefully make a deposit in WW's bank.

Thank you for your encouraging words!

Yes WW speaks to skank neighbor(SN) daily. At-least 2 times per day or more. SN's husband is a complete tool who travels all the time and would be of no help. Yes, SN seems like a bigger obstacle then the OM at this point.

I did give her a love letter last Sunday AM. I think I totally screwed it up because she said it seemed judgmental and that I was guilting her to stay for the boys.

I have been thinking of this "fog" a lot recently. Her EA was only for a few weeks. Maybe she is not in the "fog". Maybe these are just her true feelings? I really have my doubts that she is even in a fog but just has an empty love bank.

Nah, she's definitely foggy. Foggy wayways love to throw around the "judge not" drivel. They all follow the same script. Your wife is right in line with all WS with her wayward speak.

The reason she hasn't responded more favourably is definitely skanky neighbour. She is enemy no. 1 in your marriage right now. You need to find a way to eliminate SN from the equation.. Can't think of how specifically, but Pep and the others might have some ideas on how to run SN off.

One idea...file a restraining order against her on behalf of yourself and your children. Sure you might be hard pressed to get a judge to issue it...but the look on her face upon getting served (and your wife's once she finds out) would be priceless. Nothing cockroaches hate more than the light of day.

Plus...you never know...us betrayed spouses are everywhere and just maybe the judge WILL issue a temporary or permanent restraining order to keep the neighbor away from your family.

Another thought that may help such along....call the neighbor up and ask her to leave your wife and family alone. Maybe she'll say say some incriminating stuff that you could use when filing the restraining/protection order. I was going to suggest taping the phone call but it appears Florida is a two party state (thus requiring both persons on a telephone call to be award that the call is being recorded). You could tape it with an app on your cell phone perhaps and only use it if she attempts to perjure herself on the witness stand....other than that...don't even mention you taped it.

Might be a bit over the top....but this neighbor is a new and worthless friend. You call her up...she goes nuts on you and in the long run there is no doubt your wife will take your side eventually. Right now...the friend is just an independent voice whispering crap into your wife's ear. After you call her up...your wife then becomes a referee in a dispute between you and the neighbor. It changes their relationship. It ups the ante...so to speak. I'd even tell her that one way or another she's on her way out of your lives...she might as well just leave NOW with some self-respect.

Mr. W

The friend is a very powerful enemy because like a drunk or drug addict they make the wayward feel good by enabling. Waywards love the "Yes Man" around them because it reinforces their choices of destruction.

With the way you have handled yourself so far, I highly doubt that you screwed up that letter...textbook Floridaguy textbook.

Skank neighbor is an anchor on your wife's foot. Seriously. Do whatever it takes to get rid of her. Do your wife's parents know that this "friend" is a toxic influence?

Skank neighbor...Do whatever it takes to get rid of her.

Is she literally your neighbor? In what kind of environment? Urban? Suburban? Rural?

The hardest part of Plan A is to do it with no expectations. When you expect a foggy wayward...and she must be foggy to do what she is doing...

when you expect a foggy wayward to respond in a certain positive way, you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

Keep working the Plan and cleaning up your side of the street. That's the only thing you can control.

SN lives directly across the street. I live in a suburban planned community. On Thursday I went out to grab the mail and she came out the exact time to walk her dog. I had to force myself with all my strength not to freak out on her. I did not say a word neither did she.

I am still not sold on WW being in a "fog" but I am a newbie and you all know better than I.

I have been shopping all day today for fresh "swag" as suggested. From head to toe. New everything. It was great to actually buy a size smaller than normal from all the recent weight loss! Even bought cologne for the first time since I started dating WW. All new smelly soaps and lotions.

My WW always disliked our dining room set and I told her repeatedly to go out and get something that she wanted. She just never would do anything about it. Well, I placed the old set on Craigslist this AM (with WW's permission last week, we will split any proceeds) and Mom and I went and ordered a whole new set today.

I am having the classic Italian Sunday night dinner tonight. It will be interesting to see if WW hangs around or makes a quick exit. She is really tight with my family. I few of them have even texted her the last few weeks asking WW how she is and letting WW know that they still love her. Whole family will be here. Can't wait to see the boys!

Thanks everybody!

I want to thank everyone again for their great support and advice here these past few weeks.

We had a great family dinner tonight. My family was here and WW came at 6pm to drop off the kids. WW stayed for a little while and everyone was drinking wine and WW was conversing with my family and things felt good.

WW left and I checked her phone for what she was up to as I could tell that she was upset. She immediately called skank neighbor when she left the driveway. Skank neighbor did not pick up... So she texted OM "Hello :)"

Of course he replied back and said to please call him. I panicked... I called WW and she picked up while she was on the other line with OM. I asked her if she was OK as I knew she was upset when she left. She said it was hard but she was glad to see everybody. I again asked if she was OK and she said it was hard but she was fine. We hung up and she called OM right back...

After 4 days of no contact she went right back to OM. Meanwhile my whole family knew what was going on. And with their help I can now truly see that this is not the life that I want to live.

I decided right then and there that I cannot continue to torture myself and stare at her phone tracker for the next days/weeks/months while she continues this self destructive path with OM and skank neighbor. She is now their problem.

I know you will say this was a huge mistake but I called WW and told her that I knew she just called OM. And that she will have the divorce papers by the end of the week and just H/U. She will know about the phone tracker and uninstall but I don't care anymore.

I am done... I am officially moving on to "PLAN ME"! So, tomorrow I am going to sign the paperwork and move on to the next chapter in my life. And it really feels SO GOOD to have some clarity and direction. I will be a better person from this. This will not define me and I will just be the best damn DADDY that I can be!!

Funny that skank neighbor just texted her "Don't let it bother you. we will go out this week and have a fun time" WW is in such a dream world. Hope she like that air mattress!

Again, thank you all for your love, prayers, support and time but "Plan ME" has begun!

Slow down.
Plan Me isn't a plan.
There is a plan A or plan B.
Plan Me is what is referred to as plan C.

How can you be the best daddy if you aren't married?
If your wife gets the house and OM is the live in boyfriend?
It's possible.

I suggest that you don't talk to your wife anymore tonight.
Don't tell anyone about the phone software.
Sleep on this decision. Okay?

Most affairs die within 6 months of exposure.
I know it's tough.
But don't quit.
Fight the fight.
Can you give it 6 months of plan A for your kids sake?

Jedi: Plans A & B are for betrayed spouses who choose to recover their marriages after discovering infidelity. Choosing to end the marriage isn't "Plan Me" or "Plan C." Dr. Harley says a betrayed spouse has every right to end the marriage after discovering infidelity.

Jessica,

I'm aware of plan A and B.
And as a matter of fact Harley recommends plan B in post divorce cases so it's not always just affair recovery they are used for.

This poster wants to be a good father to his kids.

Wouldn't the logical choice be to try plan A for 6 months?
As a man the courts are already biased against him and the fact is he could end
Up being a weekend dad post divorce.

Florida can you hang in there for 6 months?
The odds are in your favor for the affair dying and marital recovery if you stick with the program

Thanks Jedi. The home is in my parents name. I pay the mortgage and bills but they bought the home 2 years ago as an investment when the real estate bubble burst. She has no ownership interest in the home per the lawyer. Thank God!

I am tying to slow down. My family is worried about me and I know that the best thing right now is to file and work on me and the boys. We had an intervention of sorts and I need to stop the craziness and let her go. This is just what she wanted the whole time.

Jedi and others, I can't thank you enough for your help through this. Thank you all again.

Florida.
You don't need an intervention.
Your wife wanted you to let her go because she is in the fog!

Have you read the book Surviving an Affair?
The book is base on a couple Dr Harley counseled, Jon and Sue. Sue had an affair and much like your wife, wanted Jon to let her go.
But Jon fought for their marriage and to this day, Sue is thankful that he did!

I had family members telling me to "listen to what ww wants" too
And these people don't know how to save marriages! They are trying to help but when you are in need of a transplant do you go to uncle Bob the welder or the doctor?

I think it would be a mistake for you to throw in the towel so soon after exposure.

You need to stay in the game so that at the end you can say, I did my best

Let me know if I can help?
Divorce is certainly an option.
Plan A the kids. Which means, protect them from contact with OM.
Talk to an attorney about this.

FG,

Slow down. You went from one exteme to the other all in one day. No matter what you decide, it is going to be a roller coaster ride but you do not need to decide the rest if your life tonight.

Yes, Dr. H does say that infidelity is a very valid reason to leave a marriage and you have every right, especially if your wife does not wish to end the A and get her head out of the fog....but slow down. Take one day at a time.

I agree with Jedi, PLAN ME is not the best route. Plan me leads to affairs ans selfish decisions. Also, I hope you are not planning on abandoning this site. You need this forum and MB more than ever now. Please stick around, keep reading ans writing. Take deep breaths, and SLOW DOWN.

Florida,
My wife had an affair and wanted out.
The man she chose to have an affair with tried to kill his own 3 year old daughter and went to prison for 9 years. He met my wife a few years after prison.
I filed for divorce and was awarded custody.
I was unable to plan A for very long because of child safety issues.

But I can tell you how divoRce benefits kids.
My youngest 6 year old cried every night for weeks.
My 8 year old cries in my arms sometimes and it's so sad.
The emotional turmoil of her affair and divorce impacted me and I am bankrupt and in foreclosure. But I will recover.

My children?? Well statistically they are much more likely to be wary of opposite sex relationships. Higher rate of divorce. Less successful. Those are the facts. We all like to think ourselves above statistics and I hope my kids will be.

Oh and if you think that remarriage to a better woman is the answer consider this: te odds are against you. 85% of those end in divorce.

There is a good book titled The Love They Lost, written for adult children of divorce. I encourage you to read it. Because your child may be one of the stories in there. See how divorce affects them
Into adulthood.

You've done a good job and I know that you can fight this fight for another 6 months. There are many men here with recovered marriages that can help coach you along.

Pepper! Tell me what to do here. How about file D and work on me? My Mom's first response when I told her about the comtact to OM was to "we need to talk to Pepper" !

Wow Jedi. I am sorry to hear about your situation. I feel guilty that I did not take the time to even try to understand what YOU were going through.

I am truly sorry for that.

I try not to tell people what to do. I prefer you tell me what your goals are, and then I can think about ways to reach your goals.

I have never been divorced.

What do you really want?

1. If you don't know yourself...take a night...day or a couple days to think about it [it's difficult to make critical life decisions while in crisis mode].

2. Don't make any more threats unless you are absolutely sure you are going to follow through with.

3. Cut yourself a break. You've never been in this situation before so nobody expects you to have all the answers and do everything perfectly all the time. You've done tremendous so far...you are actually way ahead of the curve.



Whatever is going to happen is going to happen. Your crisis tonight is partially due to expectations. You hoped the big family Italian dinner was going to help with a breakthrough and instead she broke no contact. Fact is...she's just as fogged out wayward right now as she was earlier today. Your marriage is still salvageable. Go to bed and sleep on it. Let's see how SHE reacts to your ultimatum [just tell us how she reacts don't try to interpret it].


W

FG, I'm sorry. When your copy of SAA arrives you will understand what JK is talking about. According to MB principles you should plan A your wife, if you want to recover the marriage. Apparently men have a much higher tolerance for plan A than women e.g Tranquil Dark. Yesterday was a bad day... but don't lose your cool just yet.

Intervention? What exactly was that?

File the divorce if you want to. You can still give her a way back to the marriage, by writing her a plan B letter of sorts, or asking her to have a meeting with you to solely discuss the direction of the marriage. Here is where you put all your cards on the table;

State that you are willing to work on your marriage and make it better than it ever was before, but she must end all contact with OM for life. She must give up SN as a friend, as you know she is an enemy to the marriage and she should move back home so that you can genuinely work on the marriage.


ETA: Then go back to plan A WITHOUT any expectations.


(I also deleted some a list I started about why contact resumed, but thought better of it.)

Have you seen this post?

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...e+lighthouse&Search=true#Post2591000

It was the right move to expose quickly.

It was the wrong move to scream divorce quickly.

The reason is now if you do not file, your WW will of been taught that what you say about her affair will carry no wieght because you will not do as you say.

WW is addicited to her OM. Hard to break addictions.

At this point learn to control your mouth. Get an attorney to file but instruct him to stall once the filing is done.

This will serve as a wake up call.

And this is why you must you must act instead of reacting.

Amen TheRoad! I am going to make mistakes but need to show more self-control.

I am filling out D papers right now. Phone tracker still working as of this moment.

You have to dig DEEP right now for strength. More strength than you have ever had in your life. There is no silver bullet or magic pill.

FG, I can relate to exactly where you are at. If you read my story, you will see the progression after dday which entailed a wild swing of emotions and events from day to day. It took years for your marriage to break down and it will take a long time for it to heal again (if it ever does).

Most likely, your WW sees no hope for your M. In her fog, she has rewritten history and most likely made you the villain in her mind. She has been dealing with the reality of her A for some time now. As a newly BS one difficult issue to deal with it the newness to you of her SSL. She has had time to deal with her reality while on the other hand it is all fresh to you.

SLOW DOWN. You are doing great. You really are. I like the way you stand up for yourself and said hey I am not going to take this abuse. Earning her respect and love back is a LONG process. Her love for you did not evaporate over night and will not return quickly either. This is a reality you must accept. It will take time for that love to die for the OM and return to you.

Most A�s die a natural death. Would your first choice be for her to come running back to your arms and denounce this POSOM? Of course! However this is unlikely. Most likely, it will continue for a while. Hard to swallow but reality.

You can only control YOU. YOU CANNOT CONTROL HER. Once I really said to myself �hey, whatever the outcome of this, I am going to become the best person I can be for myself and my children. If this M goes to D, it will be 100% on her because I did my absolute best each and every day�. It is REALLY hard to get to that place mentally because I would guess you want her more than you have ever wanted her in your life.

Absence makes the heart grow fonder. Make her miss you. Be SUPER nice and gracious while letting this POSOM know it will be more trouble than it is worth to mess with you and your family. Stand your ground on what you will and will not accept while following MB principles of not love busting and trying to make LB deposits any chance you get. All I can tell you is that it worked for me.

What are your other options? D might be a good option for you BUT it may or may not be your best option. Your call. If you want to win her back.. She needs HOPE right now. Hope that you will change, Hope that she will be happy with you. Hope that you can actually love her again.

I made a rule for myself to sleep before making any major decision. There will be hundreds of moments over the upcoming months that you will want to D her..and the next you will want your M more than anything else. I have learned that these moments come and then they go. I had to learn to 'ride the waves' both good and bad..hey, I still do.


It is amazing how pillow time can change perspective the following morning.

The first step is to KILL the affair.

Expose the continued contact to your wife's parents.
Expose POSOM OM continued contact with a married woman.
Expose skank neighbor.


Then sit down and devise your plan like a warrior. Knee jerk reactions are not in your best interests.

Affairs are an addiction. Once you start to see your wife as an addict, you will understand what is really going on and what you need to do. Remember that you are the only sane person left to protect your kids...for now anyways.

I am praying for your family.

Phone tracker still works perhaps because she thinks you used another method, like logging in to the cell phone account online and simply refreshing constantly.

OR

She knows her cell phone isn't going to work anymore so she'll just use her mom and dads cell phone or home phone to call. IF she calls OM at all.


Your wife showed up yesterday and faced your family KNOWING they knew it all. Everybody was kind to her. It was confusing. It was tremendously confusing to her because she knows in her mind how awful she is thinking about you and treating you. It troubles her because she knows she doesn't deserve your/their kindness. She wants to be happy and perhaps she started to FEEL happy and loving towards you and your family yesterday which is in direct opposition to the way she thought/told herself she felt the last few months as she justified/rationalized leaving you...not loving you...rewriting your history...etc. It would have been EASIER for her if your family yelled at her and tried to harass her into conversations. But instead they LOVED HER. She was uncomfortable so she left and tried to call neighbor to talk her down but she wasn't available so she contacted someone she thinks she trusts (OM) to help her process whats going on in her life. [it'll be interesting if she just found out you contacted OM and told him to leave your wife alone or if she's known awhile).



Meet your attorney. Do the paperwork if you must...but you COULD consider an option such as sitting down with the inlaws and telling them what you intend to do unless she moves back home, commits to "no contact" for life with OM AND neighbor (which makes the neighborhood a bit uncomfortable) and commits to a marital recovery plan OR you'll just file the paperwork you've got ready. Just giving you an option that makes it appear you are following through on what you said you were going to do yesterday while still giving her another shot before you actually file.

[this option is complicated by the fact you've got a tremendous advantage going into a Plan B AND into any custody dispute having the marital home to yourself with her out already.]


IF you file...think twice before asking for 50-50 because she may counter asking for 90-10. You may be best suited requesting full custody with supervised visitation and negotiating from there.

Mr. Wondering

FG, it was a mistake to reveal your intel source. It was a mistake to threaten "D".

Sadly, it would now be a mistake NOT to follow through.

You are going to require WW to put heavy reliance on everything you say, from here out. That would be true of negative positions ("Continued contact with OM will have consequences!"), and positive positions ("If you commit to work on this marriage, we can succeed.")

Proceed with the filing. It is not a guarantee of dissolution, but it will be an indicator of your fidelity to your own words.

I just sent this to IL's

Dear Mom and Dad,

First, I want to thank you for your unconditional support and love these past 15 or so years. You both have never felt like In Law�s but rather a real Mom and Dad. You welcomed me into your family with open arms and I will be forever grateful for this. I clearly remember the night that I walked up your front steps and into the living room to ask for Dad�s permission for his only daughter�s hand in marriage. Trembling and holding back the tears of emotion because I not only loved your daughter but loved you both so much.

I also remember watching Dad, walking down the aisle, so proud with [sic] by his side and giving me his daughter�s hand in marriage. Our vows have meant everything to me. I am trying to be the man that you expected that day, and to do the best for his daughter and our family. And to set an example for our two young men who must know how a MAN, how a HUSBAND, must do whatever he can to protect his family.

Yesterday, I found that [sic] is still carrying on her affair with [sic]. She will tell you �NO� this is not true but I am happy to provide you the proof for YOUR OWN eyes to see. She continues to listen to [sic], who only wants [sic] to break from her family, so they can go out all night together like in the past without any consequences of their actions. I would hope that you would not enable [sic] by allowing her reckless behavior to affect our children or family.

No matter what happens please know that I intend to always maintain a friendly relationship with you as well as allowing and promoting a relationship with our children and their Nonna and Pop Pop. [sic] is still a married woman, and has retreated to your home with the intentions to carry on her affair with another man. When she is a single woman I will have no say or reason to think these actions are wrong. But she is still a married woman. I hope that you will offer her the guidance that she needs to make the proper decisions for her and her family�s future.

Love,

[sic]

Hello everyone, this is Floridaguys Mom. First let me say a huge THANK YOU to everyone with their words of wisdom and prayers. Keep them coming as it�s going to be a long and painful journey. It took us a while to get the jargon down and as we talk to our son, we are starting to actually understand it all. After reading and rereading the post about the Lighthouse, I knew it was time to chime in.
After almost 40 years of marriage, we understand that it has always been Love and Compromise or what you refer to as Love deposits and withdraws that has seen us through. Don�t get me wrong, we have our battles, but at the end of the day, in my husband�s smile I can always rest a while and oh by the way, he still makes my hands sweat. Above everything else, this is what we had hoped for our son and daughter in law, so whatever happens he will be the Lighthouse. We have seen a positive change in him. He is more attentive. The last several days while those waves were crashing (some of them by his own doing), he has been strong and has tried to win the WW back. He�s put himself out there. It�s painful to see him hurting, but I knew he�ll get through it. Last night was just a small crack and it�s time for some repair. He needs to focus on being the Dad he always has been and getting himself healthy. Not just for those boys, but for himself.
Now for the WW, you talk about the Fog. Sorry, I don�t buy it. I believe this was her plan all along to move out as soon as her parents moved down here, but my son just happen to see what was happening and exposed it a bit sooner. You don�t just wake up one morning and say I�m not in love with you anymore. She claims she has been unhappy for a long time. Really, not buying that either, as this past summer they were talking about having another child. If you were that unhappy, why bring another child into an unhappy household? We all make choices and you live with those, good, bad or ugly. No regrets as those are only lessons learned, no do overs and you can only move forward. Hopefully, in time, she will grow up and spend less time worrying about someone else making her feel good and learn how to be happy with who you are. You can�t change or control what someone is feeling, only how you feel.
For us, we will continue to support whatever he does through love and comforting and he knows no matter what, we will always be there. That�s what Family is.

That is beautiful Floridaguy.

Floridaguysmom,

If you really would like to understand the dynamic in your son's marriage, get and read the book, "Surviving an Affair".

You are one great mom.

AM

Long ago, we started using The Art Of War (ancient book by Sun Tzu. Look it up) , as a sort of guide for Plan A strategy.

*** Here is the link to the thread ***

Because, YOU are "at war" with the adultery, not your spouse.





An emotional outburst, a non-caculated decision/action will lose the battle, and possibly the war.

Exactly. The fog is what enables someone to justify their own selfish and hurtful actions. It keeps them from seeing the hurt and devastation that their own choices are causing and allows them to re-write history and manipulate things to make themselves feel justified in what they are doing. That is the only way they can look themselves in the mirror.

I love you mom. I wish we had more mothers like you around here.

Thanks armymama!

Mom - it's on the coffee table in the living room under neath His Needs Her Needs. I have read it twice already and really hits home.

Florida Mom,
Thanks for the input.
I understand you dont buy into the fog.
However Dr Harley has counseled 50,000 people and is a national expert on marriages and affairs.

This is your sons life and I understand you want him to be happy.

Please do not try to control this situation.
Please support him in his efforts to follow the advice of Dr Harley.

Hi sista'. Welcome aboard.






Not always easy to be the lighthouse. Sometimes my own adult children make me want to be the baseball bat. RESIST the urge.



I know it was difficult for my in-laws and my parents to watch us as we muddled through the horribleness of Mr Pep's adultery. The best thing they did was to be there to listen. Many years later, my Mom told us just how proud she was of how we "worked things through". It must have been difficult for Mom not to pick up the baseball bat and "aim low".


Exactly! When this all shakes out, your son will have learned how to dig deep inside himself and make difficult decisions with integrity. It's a process. We always use the AA motto: "Progress, not perfection" , as a goal.



When I first arrived on MB, I felt exactly the same way !!!
Wait and read. I will soon link some wayward fog for you to laugh at. I will start a new thread here direct to you.


Yes. We understand. The "comparison effect" to the OM is what makes that wayward fog stupidity possible.


They all say the same thing. We call it the wayward script.


This was before the "comparison effect".

You are exactly right. Most likely she has had this plan in place for a long time. So did my FWW. She had all her finances detailed in writing, potential apartments to move into once she left me�the whole nine yards. She had mentally checked out of the M.

However this was AFTER she started her A. Sure she was unhappy for a long time but the A itself was the conduit to her exit to the M.

But, guess what? If you ask her today where her mind was at the time she would confirm 100% she was in an A fog. Absolutely. NO question about it. That is why the advice here it to address HER reality of her life today. It is designed to kill the A first and then and only then (after a period of withdraw and most likely depression) she will start to see reality more clearly.

Until that contact is cut off for good with POSOM, there is no hope for your son�s M. R cannot start until this happens and she crashes and burns.

Hi FG's mom! I'll chime in with the rest and say that you are absolutely wonderful for supporting your son during this painful time in his life.

"The fog" is just a term used to describe the state of mind of a wayward spouse. If I could simplify it I would say it's about being selfish. To use Harley terminology, the Taker is fully in control. It doesn't mean that the person is somehow incapacitated or inculpable for their actions. It just means that all their thoughts and actions come from a place where they think only of themelves. As a result it begins to distort their view of reality... eg. FG's loveletter, which I am sure was filled with wonderful platitudes of his love and desire to have a complete family with her could simply not be that, because it would go against her notion that he doesn't care about her. Said notion justifies her selfish behaviour of moving out to pursue a single life.

I hope that helps you understand.. when we say "fog" we are not trying to excuse your wayward DIL from any of her actions.

Take your time .... and *think*

The Art Of War does not advise rash decisions.

The following post was written by Schoolbus.




It is not a great idea to make life changing decisions under the influence of roller coaster emotions. Or anxiety. Or depression. Or fear. Or anger. Or indecision. Or confusion.

Sometimes, circumstances during a spouse's affair may be so dire that a decision must be made "pronto", in order to protect the family from some type of imminent danger ... But even that decision is made based on FACTS, not emotions.

The decision to divorce will not protect anyone from the pain.
The pain will be there either way.
And, that's the point.

Divorce is sometimes a solution.
But, divorce is not the "off switch" to the pain.

Thanks for reading.

You really should post these letters BEFORE sending them. Ultimately this is YOUR life and your responsibility so taking our advice as we sit comfortably at home arm-chair quarterbacking the situation only has risk for you but bouncing around some ideas could really help tidy up these communications. It's too late to fix this by letter (don't revise it and resend as that makes you appear wishy-washy) but perhaps a conversation with fil is at hand and this letter laid some groundwork for him to think about beforehand.

Thoughts below in red

Thanks Mr. W. I thought I was doing just what you suggested. I am sure that you recognize that I wrote most of this based on your recommendations in a previous post.

So, do file D but ask lawyer to drag it out? Or walk back on my threat. File for full custody and show WW this will not be a quick and easy death? Or hold off and Plan A? I know I put myself here with my recent mistakes but I can now just learn from them.

Phone tracker is still working. She has been talking to MIL since I sent the email this AM. No contact to or from OM so far. Based on their prior history of 20/texts per day I thought they would be hot and heavy by now. IL's do not have a home phone and no way would MIL allow her to use her cell phone. They do not have text messaging on their cell plan either.

I agree with Mr. W's sentiments. One way for FIL and MIL to help is to encourage her to get back into the marital home and give the marriage a good go before calling it quits.

Also me and my in-laws were very close even throughout the entire ordeal. However, once they re-established ties with WH our relationship was basically cut off. The reality is though the kids may see their grandparents it is highly unlikely that you will be attending family dinners in the event of a divorce.

I am a bit upset over your current choices FG and also worried about Mom's best intended help. I am afraid for you and your boys. Now there is no one left to champion this marriage. Its completely adrift now. Take a good hard look at all that has come between you and your wife. Its your wife's affair that has created the devastating blow but the two of you have not minded the marriage for some time now.

Parents and in-laws are usually terrific people whom can also be very unhelpful in how they attempt to help us in many instances. They can enable us in the process of protecting us from our own actions and pain. When you were married you left your parents home to become one with your wife. It appears this process and leaving may not have fully happened yet. This alone can be partly responsible for the ungluing
of your marriage.

FG, consider standing up for the marriage both you and your wife deserve. Yes, you will need to take a few bullets now. It may feel like death by one thousand cuts sometimes. But remember this affair might not have occurred if you and your wife had always practiced extraordinary precautions and placed boundaries on those outside your marital home. This includes friends, neighbors, co-workers, family members and even your own children. You just did not put your marriage front and center so why keep doing this? Why not take a stand now and keep your marriage in the spot light. this does not mean you stop caring for yourself, your health and your children. I would hope you can step back and cast a wider net.

At least suspend any major decisions. Stop simply reacting to others. This is a poor habit. It seems you really want your family intact. Step back. Pray, meditate... you have already been noticing how extraordinary the ordinary is in your life. (via coloring w/sons) How precious your relationships are to you. Stay with this. More often then not these affair relationships that trigger fog are meaningless to the affair partners. This is why we have been telling you to rid yourself of expectations for awhile.

I want my family back!

DITTO...

[but if you don't know THAT'S OK...that's the beauty of the MB process..."Plan A, bust up the affair, Plan B". While you figure out what you want...you've still got a plan for what to do.]

My best guess where this is going - follow up with the attorney and give all parties the idea that you are following up with what you said you were going to do and then let's assess what happens the next few days. It's not like your attorney is expected to or is going to file this by Friday. Paperwork takes time....getting him the information takes time. As long as the enemy perceives you as following through then you can drag your feet on the execution and blame it on the attorney. Then at the last minute...put the paperwork on hold. Don't actually file. In my opinion, you aren't OBLIGATED to file anything here. You can change your mind.

Hopefully your attorney won't want a huge retainer up front. Perhaps you'll need to tell him/her this is just an initial consultation and you want to him/her to have all the info they need to be able to prepare the documents and file it within one or two days of you paying them a retainer.

OK.


That's great.

Never threaten. You want the 'enemy' unaware of your plans.

When WW brings up divorce:

"I don't talk divorce. I spoke out of anger." <~~~ Does not mean you don't get an attorney, by the way. If a divorce is going to happen, you have your counselor/representative do the 'divorce talk'.

Do you think you can Plan A awhile longer, or are you just about spent?

That seems like a fair plan. While this is going on do I still plan A like nothing happened? I have the kids this week and as agreed she will pick them up from school Wednesday and will bring back home @ 7pm. The plan was that mom was going to ask for the house key and garage transmitters at this exchange. I was not planning on being there.

FG, my thoughts are to try to get WW back in the home before the end of this week. You need FIL and MIL to get onboard with that plan and exert a little pressure.

I can take it and Plan A. It seems I just snap when she contacts OM. I think I now truly have no expectations this time.

SELF CARE is vital during Plan A.
I'm serious.

Mr W. I am rereading this I think you are on point as always! I think she was starting to feel some love again and panicked. I probably ruined it with my outburst. ARGHHHHHH! Hopefully this was not my fatal mistake.

Progress. Not perfection.
Carry on, soldier.

Give yourself a break. The amazing thing is once you recover you'll have conversations with your wife rehashing all of this and I wouldn't be surprised for her to indicate that your outburst was one of the things that snapped her out of it. You stood up for yourself and put your foot down on contact with OM. At the least there's something manly and strong about that that could trigger an attraction deep inside her female brain. There's no telling what gets through the fog or not so let it go and do different/better next time.

I tend to think things happen for a reason. If you've been praying...you've got an allies helping you out. Perhaps He has a reason as he works on her with you. You swung your sword last night against evil. It's OK.

Mr. W

Thanks Pepper.

I'm encouraged FG. And Mom I am sorry this is happening to your family too.

My husband is a specialist in a surgical practice for 25 + years. I have worked in the practice for those years too. As veterans we have a pretty good overview of how things will likely evolve for patients, staff and so on. Sure there can be exceptions and unusual circumstances but even within the unpredictable there is some predictability. Overtime as our staff works in the practice they too learn t he ropes.

And that's how it is here. Dr Harley is a super specialist in infidelity. Those who are veterans of this site have gained a certain amount of experience from exposure to the practice as my husbands staff are exposed to his.

The notion of 'the fog' has become a universal truth here. It does not clear your DIL
of responsibility for the damages. Even Dr Harley does not recommend a BS forgive their mates after a recovery begins.

Dr Harley recommends 'just compensation.' This would make your DIL responsible for extraordinary precautions to be put in place to prevent an affair from ever occurring again. Anyway, I caught that it may seem hard to fathom your DIL being able to once again be part of your family and not be held to standard.

In the end both partners are held to this standard of extraordinary care. And this extraordinary care is the best possible result for your grandchildren.

Another condition to consider...

A polygraph.

You might not have to follow through with it as often just the threat of it causes all the truth to come out.

There's a chance she's already done something sexual with OM or some other guy. A secret of such magnitude can and will destroy your marriage. It must be discovered if it is the truth. It may be an impediment to her even considering trying with you too.

Of course...if may be an impediment to you even wanting to recover too... but getting the truth doesn't change the truth. Your recovery can only begin on a foundation of truth so making a polygraph a requirement may get there.


This is a long shot thought but what if OM and your wife had done something and OM got in touch with the neighbor and threatened to tell you EVERYTHING unless your wife contacted him yesterday (maybe he wanted closure and to tell her about your emails hoping she'd reconsider and rekindle their relationship). OM's are nuts and will also do and say anything to get what they want too.

Mr. W

I had another question that needed help with. I purchased WW a dog 10 years ago when we were first married. This has always been my wife's dog. This dog is such a pain in the A. Now please know that this dog is being well cared for, but the dog is all stressed out because WW is not home. There is no way that I want to keep the dog and I have expressed this to WW. ( I am not a bad guy to you dog lovers out there, I just never liked her dog)

IL's do not care much the dog either and WW has stated that she cannot take the dog and it is now my problem. SN always watched the dog for us when we would take vacations or overnights to the beach. Now I need to find a kennel and pay for all care of the dog and it just seems way to unfair to me because this is not my dog!

So, MOM and I were thinking about just dropping off the dog at IL's, after verifying they were home of course, and putting the dog in their front screen room and ringing the bell and just leaving.

Any thoughts?? Please do not hate me dog lovers! I am just looking for a suggestion. Thanks.

So, MOM and I were thinking about just dropping off the dog at IL's...

Your Mom thinks as I do. Few ladies are so brilliant!

I love dogs but some can be a pain. Still I would be concerned this action could be a love buster and less helpful for the long haul. And staying away from actions that are reactionary may be a better plan for now. Sure your wife is antagonizing you w/affair but best not to reciprocate. I'd say this notion is giving you and Mom some fun to think about (black humor) but not a MB thing to actually do.

You are in the beginning stages of adjusting to a new normal. Its a painful process. Enjoy some black humor moments if it helps you get thru your day. But perhaps getting help with the dog in other ways will be best for now. Can the boys take on more responsibility as this dog likely has some meaning for them?

Dog problem:

My thoughts (and this is totally my opinion not MB advice) are ......

Issue WW a single advisement. (I prefer the word advisement over the word warning)

Please be advised.
You need to collect your dog by tomorrow. If your dog is not in your custody by end of tomorrow, I will be forced to surrender your dog to the animal shelter.

Do this in writing. An email will suffice. NOT a text. CC your in-laws and your parents of your 'advisement'.
Do not give WW one week, one day only. Non emotional. Non confrontational.
Then, if WW or one of her 'agents' does not pick up her dog, you surrender her dog to the animal shelter the following day.

When the 'sheets' hit the fan about this, you 'broken record' her.
"This is your choice. Not mine. I will go along with your decision about your dog."

Don't say "the dog", always say "your dog".

Do not argue this point.
"What is your decision about your dog?"

It will make her crazy.
The shelter can be instructed to hold her dog for awhile, to give her time to do the right thing.
What happens to her dog is in her ball park.

Pep -

Most shelters in the south have the right to euthanize a dog the same day if they're owner surrenders. That is one of the things you sign when you give the dog up. Also, rescues can take the dog out same day if it is an owner surrender.

Maybe pay 7 days of boarding? Or, see if you can get him in at a no kill shelter?

I have done animal rescue and transports for years out of the south.

Steph

I was thinking that doing this with the dog could help push WW out of IL's or help her ware out her welcome. Again, this dog is a pain in the A.

I disagree with the "come and get it, or else" approach because, if WW does not show up, that still puts the onus (in the eyes of the children) on FG to dispose of the pup. And it places an undue burden on the pound operators.

Drop the pup off, with instructions that if it isreturned to your house, you will THEN pound said doggie.

(At least I forwent the suggestion of overfeeding and laxative-ing the beast! I do have SOME heart!)

OMG Pep... I could not do that. She would be put to sleep and I nor Mom could never live with that. As much as I want to get rid of the dog I would just assume keep her.

'OK.
Then take her dog over to the in laws.
Your plan is superior.

I like the idea of leaving the dog on the IL's porch. The dog problem is the natural consequence of WW's actions, and the "stick" of Plan A requires you to let her suffer her own consequences.

Dr. Harley has always maintained that you never stand in the way of the consequences of the A to the wayward spouse. You let them fall on their own sword�this takes many forms and can include dealing with animals.

IMO, this dog situation is one for her to deal with and is a consequence of the A. When I caught my FWW, she had a cat that was similar to what you are saying. I didn�t give her a choice. I said you will be taking YOUR cat with you. That was the end of the discussion. Wasn�t my problem anymore.

Yeah, I really don't think there's much to it. Drop the dog off.

I contend that a WW has an �illusion� of what D will look like. Most of us here know the fog too well�They visualize ridding off into the sunset with their AP..see an amicable D, will still see their children regularly and the world would just be so much better out of this house and with my AP. Husband will deal with the dog..on and on..


I say Heck No. Wrong. It is up to us as BS�s to shatter that reality. Let them see what it will really look like by allowing the consequences of the A to fall fully on their shoulders. Of course we want to Plan A like a rock star but we must not stand in the way of them experiencing the consequences. Don�t want to remain married and work this out? Fine. Share custody of the children and remain friends after D? I say Heck No. Wrong. We will NOT be friends, I will go for 100% full custody and base my filing of D on the grounds of A.

I like the drop the dog off at her new residence. It puts it in her court. It forces her to something, and it is not a direct ultimatum. They hate ultimatums.
My exWW left a cat and a dog i never wanted on my doorstep, (out of spite for the kids wanting to be with me not her). I was forced to deal with the situation immediately.

Have you exposed POSOM? If not, then you are playing right into your WW plans. They plan to tell everyone that they met after you "separated." She will be welcomed with open arms by his family because they are none the wiser.


Target his parents first. What would your own mother say if she found out you were chasing around a married woman?


Not doing a full exposure including SN is a strategic mistake.

That is your strongest weapon in killing the fantasy world they are living in and the fog.

Do your kids love this dog? Animals are great healers to people in stress. Can you put up with the dog if that will help eliminate some of the stress for your kids?

WW just texted me her new phone #. Operation investigate phone is over. Still have email and fb passwords but this was a self inflicted strategic blow. I have lost the battle but not the war. I think...

Operation " mut move" begins at nightfall.

The kids like the dog but they will get to see her at ww's house. What she does with the dog will be her decision.

Good, FL. Put the dog in WW's hands. I love animals, but not at the expense of people.

As far as her new number goes...don't sweat it. It was an an error to reveal, but you have done more than some (most) do over months. You know she's in contact, so rest with that knowledge for now.

Keep posting here. You are doing GREAT, and I have very high hopes for you and your WW.

Many have said over and over that it is a rollercoaster. Don't take that lightly, OK? Post here when you want to throw in the towel as you will get hard-handed and caring redirection, pronto. Your family that is fighting for you M just grew to an army of brothers and sisters, aunts and uncles, parents and even adult children...all right here.

Stay the course. You are doing GREAT.

Also to FL's Mom... Hi Mom! Your son is doing great!!

Good things will come when one has a PLAN versus "hope".

"Hope is not a plan" never gets old.

When talking to your kids, always refer to it as Nonna and Pop Pop's house.

Always refer to your own house as "HOME."

Good luck with operation mut.

Yea keep it up to err is human.

Thanks everyone. Operation "mut move" was a success. WW was not even home. FIL was sleeping on the chair. I opened the screen door and left the dog with some food, her leash, and some of WW's mail. I then texted WW that I left her some mail on the portch for her. I made sure to close the door all the way so dog is secure.

It was so nice to come home and open my front door and not hear barking waking up the whole house.

I also am feeling so much relief from not constantly checking WW's phone tracker every 5 mins. This is so much better for me right now. I will just work on being the lighthouse for me and my boys. If she happens to come out of the fog then maybe it will work out. Zero expectations!

Okay, just a drive by post as I have no time these days, but I have been following your thread from the beginning.

You have impressed the living hell out of me with your "torpedoes be damned, full speed ahead" approach to this. Usually, the BH's here have to coddled or cajoled into doing what is necessary to give their marriage the best chance at recovery.

Operation "mutt move" was perfectly executed, and I'm willing to bet it will throw a lot more turmoil into the living arrangements over there.

From beginning to whatever ending you may have, simply well done!!

Personally, I would hire a PI to find out exactly what the newly separated WW was up to while the kids are being looked after by Dad.

ETA: You may find something that could be useful in child custody matters. Know the enemy. I know you don't want to think of her as the enemy but that is what she is when she takes your kids from you without really trying to fix the problem and keep the family together.

Another condition to recovery....affair phone bye-bye (you often have 30 days on a new contract to cancel)

How did she pay for this new phone?
Family money?
A joint credit card?

This frivolous purchase...in furtherance of her affair....might be an opportunity to shut her off financially under the pretense that she's frittering away family money on useless cell phones (when she already has one).

You go to the bank and move nearly all the joint money to an individual account and then you cancel joint credit cards.

Perhaps her father is willing to finance his daughters new lifestyle but you're not.

At the very least...perhaps you could apply for or activate/reactivate an individual credit card such that you'll have access to a card or two if and when you decide to cancel the joint cards.

Mr. W

P.S. - Until there is a divorce filed (with it's standard temporary orders requiring the parties to preserve assets and maintain the status quo) you can spend and do whatever you want with your finances.

My father in law purchased an affair phone for my ex wife during her affair also.

FLGUY, I got all caught up and I wanted to just touch on a few things. You made a mistake, and that is natural. I also did that early into my PLan A. Remember my earlier post to you? THis is going to be a long haul. As I was told early on in my thread, PLan A is Hard, Plan B is harder, and Recovery is harder still.

One of the hardest things to do during Plan A is to do it with no expectations, and to hold your tongue.

During Plan A, you are going to assume that the affair is still on, and that there is continued contact. With that assumption, you don't do anything differently. You still need to expose the OM. How are you coming with that?

Also, as MrW posted, you should post letters, etc on here for others to have input on it. MANY times, a BS has saved themselves a huge amount of stress by doing this.

Thank you MR W. We have already separated finances. She now has her own bank account and debit card. I already cut her a check for 1/2 the the checking and savings balance. After handing her the check, she handed me the debit card and I cut it up right then and there. Her name was never on the checking account. I always kept our finances in the dark because she would get upset if I discussed money. She just new the money would come in and she could take it out. As I have said before this woman is truly clueless of the world.

Scotland - thank you for checking in on me and the post. You tried to tell me how hard this would be and I did not really listen. Well I get it now...

Not watching what she is doing is helping me so much. It was like I was in a "fog" and she was a drug that I could not live without. Well this detachment feels great right now. She is free to go do what she wants and I am free to work on me and be the best dad possible. The lighthouse post by ARK keeps playing in my mind.

Right now WW is raging mad and is trying to punish me by NC. After operation "mut move" last night she called a family friend and told her that she could not watch the dog and her parents did not want the dog there and how I should be working with her for the boys not against her...

My oldest was so upset last night at bedtime. He came out crying and said he missed mom. So we decided to call WW. WW did not pick up right away and then called right back. I could tell she was outside of the club with all the noise around her. My oldest asked her when she was coming home and if he will see her in the morning. She told him that she will see him soon and then said put daddy on the phone. I could tell that she was intoxicated. She quickly snapped and asked what I was telling our boys. I responded " the truth and nothing else". She responded " we need to work together" I then respond " well then come home" She just H/U.

BE THE LIGHTHOUSE

Is she an alcoholic?

I don't think so. She drinks maybe 5 days a week. Only at ever at night.

WW has described MIL as a former alcoholic but she rarely ever drinks now. Her only brother is on his 3rd DUI. He has tried to commit suicide a few times and is a complete mess. IL's enabled him when his girlfriend gave him the boot last year. IL's let him stay in their basement even when they new he was bringing alcohol into their house.

Forgive me if I already linked this.

document document document

As in: "(date) Son said "I miss Mommy." Asked to call Mommy. Called (number) at (time) and left message. (number) minutes later, WW called and briefly spoke to son. Then WW spoke to me and I could hear noises indicating WW was at a club/bar. Her speech was slurred. She said (put it in quotes)."

Do this with all child related events. Both good bad and dull times.

"(date) sons and I went bowling."
"(date) Son #2 wet the bed at (time)."
"(date) drove sons to get haircuts. Then had ice cream."
"(date) Son#1 said "I met Mommy's friend Joe."

Who + What + When + How .... All without you surmising the motive (why). No emotional embellishments.
Use quotes when possible.
It will make sense later.

Yes. Document everything as recommended

Hi FG,
Why was your wife kept in the dark regarding your finances? And how much does she drink 5 times per week? Do you really know how much?

It sounds like her 'taker' expectations of you are:
-support her single lifestyle and new freedoms
-a modeling of co-parenting detrimental to the children's welfare, really your child care while she parties and involves herself in infidelity(s)
-indifference to her lifestyle, or no protest to her new found fun--fully support her
-doggy care
-unconditional friendship and love
-no expectation of reciprocation
-and more...


Sounds like abandonment and alienation

Well, she always had access to the checking and savings accounts, IRA / 401k. She would never show much interest. I would take care of it for her. Our finances are very solid. No issues. We are not rich but live very comfortably.

She will drink 2-3 glasses of wine when she does drink. Maybe 1-2 rum and cokes if no while in the house. I want to be clear that I VERY rarely drink. I used to smoke weed regularly but that has stopped for some time.

Could you explain the taker expectations and the abandonment and alienation. Not sure I get that. Thanks.

Documentation!!

Yes I am keeping a ledger in a free dropbox account so everything is stored on the cloud.

All texts to and from WW are also imported to the journal.

My lawyer made me promise to keep this updated each day. Thanks!

Buyers Renters Freeloaders

This is a Harley authored book. I took notes on the forum while I read it.
This linked thread is my understanding of Dr Harley's work. MY interpretation.

The second post on this linked thread has the Taker/Giver explanation.

A lot of this theory can be postponed until you are entering recovery.
But for now, you can use some of this theory, I suppose.

In Plan A, your GIVER goes into overdrive. Her ENs are attended to. Yours? Not so much.
When you seemingly get nothing back for all your Plan A efforts, your TAKER pushes his way into the situation IN ORDER TO PROTECT YOU.


We want to emphasize that your TAKER is not a bad guy. Your GIVER is not a good guy. They are equally important for a balanced life.

Which begs the question .... how much longer can you Plan A? See how this works? Plan A is stressful for your TAKER.

Did you attorney tell you to give her 1/2?

I'd have suggested 25% under the supposition that each member of the family is/was entitled to 25% of the families money and, as the guy customarily in charge of the kids money...you'd be sure to look after their 50%.

Then I'd have you look to pay MIL/FIL a small stipend for room and board of your kids.

The point is NOT to give your wayward spouse money.

Consider if she were off on a crack binge...would you have handed her 1/2 the money then???? Do you think she'd come back before blowing/smoking through ALL the money???

Bringing rock bottom up is essential.


Oh....and it's not bad that she's mad at you. Conflict is OK. Complicity in her behavior is really just enabling it.

BTW...you don't have a custody agreement right now so technically you can do whatever you want. You don't have to honor a 7 day .... 7 day agreement if you don't want to. Document her drinking habit and maybe you can go for primary custody of the kids. If you continue consenting to 50-50 you MAY BE inadvertently indicating you think she's currently a fit parent.

Then again...you may need another week where you can document her leaving the kids with her parents while she goes out drinking as what she does on her weeks off isn't as detrimental to the "best interests" test.

Mr. W

Thanks MR W.

Yes, lawyer said she was entitled to half. So I gave it to her. At-least what she perceived to be half. It really was not that much. I will admit that my wife really has no idea where our money is/was. When she started her withdrawal in November I always new in the back of my mind that I needed to start to protect my assets in case things got worse. Well they did, and I am glad that I took those cautionary steps before it was to late.

Right now I do not want full custody of the boys. They need to see their mother as much as they need to see me. That could change based on her behavior.

God forbid...but such "behavior" could possibly be a divorce/ custody petition (or response to your petition someday) claiming she's the most fit parent entitled to primary custody and you get the standard every other weekend...wednesday night "visitation".

Seeking full custody isn't the same as getting full custody. Your desire for them to see and be with their mother is a sentiment you bring to the negotiating table. Up front...if and when you file...you do so aggressively and best case scenario...you wake her up from the fog to what she could potentially lose. She may not ever hit rock bottom if you make this easy for her.

You're somewhat of a natural at this stuff.

Mr. W


GPS her car. Might be good documentaiton of her clubbing.

Have you seen these?

The Three States of Mind in a Marriage
The Giver and Taker

Sounds like her financial cluelessness was self inflicted or basically a division of labor around your house.

Drinking 2-3 drinks per day or more is typically too much for a woman in one evening. Keep an eye on this situation. She may not be able to act in your kids best interests if she maintains this sorority lifestyle.

Do your best to maintain yourself in the giver mode ---at least directly to your wife. Just know your 'taker' will rise up or surface now and then as it did the other nite when you let on you have been tracking her calls. Its self preservation. Let your taker vent here. And just acknowledge your 'taker' as I did when I listed the stuff above. (It struck me your wife has abandoned your marriage and has alienated herself from you, her husband.)

Say to your taker (yourself) you are OK and you are going to thoughtfully allow your 'giver' to be in charge for awhile. Dr Harley and Steve H emphasize this. You want to intelligently navigate and not allow your emotions to control the situation.

Several times coach Steve used the analogy of piloting a plane. Apparently its not always easy to know where you are in space when flying in certain conditions. When they teach you to fly they teach you to not trust your perceptions but instead to follow the instruments of the plane in order to safely fly. The 'plan A' and 'plan B' here are the instruments to follow.

Your wife's complaint regarding the dog drop off its telling as far as how she is politicing her own self centered cause. Probably benefits her in certain company.

My uncle was married for 16 years and has been divorced for about the last 5. His XW is still very close in WW's and My lives. Uncle and his EW have a son together age 12 and was being close to his was an important factor in deciding to move here to FL. I treat him more like a son than a cousin. Uncle's XW has always been very supportive and I believe is a positive influence in WW's life.

When WW left she first was staying at Uncle's XW's house. WW stayed there until she moved back home briefly before leaving for IL's.

After operation " mut moove" last night my Uncle received a call from his XW telling him that this was not a good idea and that I was further ruining my chances of R with WW. Uncle's XW was also concerned about how the boys where told of our separation. I texted Uncle's XW the following this AM because she speaks to WW daily.

To : Uncle's XW
Date : 03/05/2013 08:33:54 am
Hey [Uncle's XW]. I spoke to [uncle] and wanted to let you know that I have chosen to be completely honest with the boys. I will not be asked to lie to them. My family is on board with this also. When two people are married they do not have boyfriends or girlfriends. The boys need to see an example of how a MAN and husband acts. [ww] is setting her own example. I love them and do not want them to blame themselves in the future. I know you love us all and I greatly appreciate you being there for my family. And I will always be there for yours.

To ME from : Uncle's XW
Date : 03/05/2013 09:45:07 am
I understand you don't want to lie to the boys but you don't need to tell them details.

To : Uncle's XW
Date : 03/05/2013 09:53:09 am
Children as young as 4 are old enough to understand in an age appropriate way. I am simply stating the facts. Mommy wants to leave me for BF and break up the family. The details are the truth. I would never lie to them.

To : Uncle's XW
Date : 03/05/2013 09:58:11 am
I am always sure to tell them that I love mommy and I want mommy to with is here in our home as a family. I would never say anything negative or derogatory about [WW]. She will always be their mommy and she loves them very much.

To ME from : Uncle's XW
Date : 03/05/2013 10:00:14 am
She wants to leave for other reasons, not for a bf. I'm sorry this is happening.

To : Uncle's XW
Date : 03/05/2013 10:05:51 am
Me too. Wish she would just try everything to try to make it work. There is a path to work on US. I think the four of us are worth trying to work on things. Sadly she is so involved with [OM] and [Skank Neighbor] that this path is not possible. I understand this is partly my fault. I want to work on those issues and we could work on them together if she would just try.

To : Uncle's XW
Date : 03/05/2013 10:09:49 am
I realize that I can only work on me. I can't make her change how she feels about me. Our marriage is worth our very best effort. How can she expect to feel something for me again with another man in her life?

To : Uncle's XW
Date : 03/05/2013 10:22:28 am
I know she felt unloved and neglected for so long. That is the greatest sorrow of my life. How could I have done that to my best friend and wife? I can be the person she once loved again. And after feeling unloved and hurt for so long that she is just numbed from the pain. She tells herself that it is over. I can be that man again. If she would give us just one chance.

To : Uncle's XW
Date : 03/05/2013 10:24:40 am
Thanks again for listening

To YOU from : Uncle's XW
Date : 03/05/2013 10:46:18 am
She really doesn't want to be involved with [OM], they just talk, he listens and gives her a man's point of view, If you want a women's point of view we can talk later, I am Here to to listen. Love ya

To : Uncle's XW
Date : 03/05/2013 10:50:52 am
I would like that. I am just trying to work on myself and be the best dad I can. Maybe [WW] will see that someday. Love ya.


My whole family is to go to one of our favorite restaurants tonight for a nice dinner. Yesterday I booked our oldest son's 7th birthday party. WW was supposed to get the invitations last weekend but only thinks of herself these days and I was not going to watch his Bday go by without a party! I texted to WW:



To : WW
Date : 03/05/2013 10:31:58 am
Booked bowling for [son's] party. Sat 3/23. @ 1. Invites given to [teacher] this am.

To ME from : WW
Date : 03/05/2013 11:04:25 am
Great..thanks.

To : WW
Date : 03/05/2013 11:07:03 am
I have an invitation for you :-)

To : WW
Date : 03/05/2013 12:27:34 pm
[favorite restaurant] tonight. Welcome to join.

To ME from : Dad
Date : 03/05/2013 12:53:27 pm
Locks are changed:)


To ME from : WW
Date : 03/05/2013 01:07:00 pm
Let me know what time

When committed to employing your forces, feign inactivity.
When your objective is nearby, make it appear distant; when distant, create the illusion of being nearby.
Display profits to entice them.
Create disorder in their forces and take them.
If they are substantial, prepare for them.

To : WW
Date : 03/05/2013 01:10:38 pm
Have one person coming at 7:30 to look at furniture. Then a second person now just emailed that she wants to come at 6. Nightmare. I can let you know later.

To ME from : WW
Date : 03/05/2013 01:11:13 pm
K


If this is to much detail let me know... I don't want to post everything on here but I tend to make mistakes so am afraid to repeat poor decisions! Am I rewarding her bad behavior by inviting her to join? Am I just enabling her to be a cake eater??

WW never said yes. She just wanted to know what time we were going to dinner! She may be just planning to drop off dog when we are gone! I smell a sneak attack!

Good thing locks are changed and garage doors disabled...

You\re in Plan A, so for now, you will invite her to things, and when she turns you down, you will still do whatever it is that you suggested.

Have you read the threads of the other BHs whom have done Plan A before you? You can get a lot of good ideas on what to do, and not to do during Plan A.

In your texts with your uncle's EW, I noticed something, and I would like to remind you of it. You need to watch YOUR opposite sex friendships. And that is with ANYONE, even this "aunt". You are at your highest risk of having an affair yourself. Keep your boundaries HIGH.

Why not try for full custody of the kids? Waywards make horrible parents.

Have you exposed to everyone on WW's and your side? And how is exposure coming on OM?

Thanks Scotland. You are right this is a major part of Plan A. I need to make deposits. Yes all WW's friends and family have been exposed. I re-exposed to IL's again yesterday. All OM's fb contact have been exposed. Included mom and brother.

As far as Uncle's XW not an issue. But I will heed you advice.

The custody issue still lingers. If WW brings up the divorce threat I last made when we spoke i will simply tell her "that I was instructed not to talk about it."

Don't you just love this ancient wisdom!


Invite her. That is Plan A ~ carrot.
Disable her disruption of your home (the locks) that is Plan A ~ stick.



You're really 'getting the hang of this'.

Not only are you demonstrating an understanding of Sun-Tsu, FG, but your "attack" on WW's indirect supports - calm treatment of Uncle's xW, and "doggie" dumped in IL's lap - shows kinship with the principles espoused by B.H.L. Hart in his Strategy.

Is the b-day party a surprise? If not, make sure the birthday boy also asks Mommy to attend!

Now, you mentioned in answer to my question, that you lived in a suburban development of some kind. Is that arrangement complete with a home-owner's association, and accompanying restrictive residency rules?

I have some typically nasty ideass on tactics to ruin the life of skanky-enabling neighbor, but they won't work well with an interfering HOA.

Read this thread for a preview of my thoughts!

Here is where you went wrong. You should of told UXW a woman does not need a man's point of view. That men do not need a womans point of view. What is right is right, what is wrong is wrong.

WW has problems then WW needs a professional counselor, not a boy friend.

That is just standard WW justifying her seeing the OM by spining and lying trying to mask and hide her affair. Love you back.

Was UXW a WW?

I am now wondering if you are inadvertently cooperating with WW ways and making it easy for her to get the boys and take them to IL? Does she enter the home and pack up their things? Or do you have to pack up their stuff for their visit to Grandparents home?

What about not lifting a finger to help when she want to remove the boys. I know you have sort of agreed to separate days, but what about her providing for them all the way at IL house if that is what she is going to do. I don't mean to make it +++ tough on kids.

But why shouldn't their real home environment be left intact when she takes them so their stuff is not also divided between? Have them ready in the front of the house w/only clothes on their back. Explain Mommy will provide their stuff. She would need to fully provide their needs for them when with her. If they have a special toy they want to bring-- rather she would need to provide this herself (a duplicate) if necessary and not you.

I don't know, maybe this sort of thing is only managed if out of plan A and into plan B or D. I'm sure others here will have better understanding. Just thought it might be another stick for plan A as we are discussing.

Floridaguys Mom says Amen to this. He sent this to UXW. He is having Family dinner with boys and WW tonight.

Your uncle's Ex.... her "woman's point of view" already vaguely appears to be "an unrepentant wayward woman's point of view."\

I hears a bunch of wierd crap from my mother and sister justifying infidelity... I don't talk with them about marriage anymore...

You should (have) told UXW a woman does not need a man's point of view. That men do not need a woman's point of view. What is right is right, what is wrong is wrong.

THINKING what TR suggested was absolutely correct. TELLING her was a strategic error. You need to chip away at WW's support system. Telling UXW (figuratively), "You're full of crap!" drives her even more into the realm of the much-to-be-dreaded "bond of sisterhood". She will more than ever support WW, as, after all, you disagreed with her (UXW) so how can you be correct on any matter?

Damn, can't do nothing right. You are right. Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer.

How about a call to UXW tomorrow to smooth things over?

So dinner went OK. My parents decided not to go as they were tired from their day at the beach. It was just me, WW and the boys. WW was very super focused on the boys. It seemed as if she was trying to ignore me and just kept her focus on them like I was not even there.

I was trying to engage the boys also but she was just in hyper mommy mode. We exchanged some chit chat by the end of the meal. I made no busters or deposits. Nothing expected either.

Still no mention of operation "mut move" from WW.

As we were walking out to the car she seemed more relaxed. Asked if I would have the boys call her when putting to bed. I agreed.

Not much else to report but maybe this was a small ice breaker from the stress from the last couple days.

Do I keep inviting her to join in these family activities? Like everyday or once a week?

[quote=graceful2b]

Thanks G2b. Being so new there has not been a history of exchange rules set. I will be dropping off Sunday night with the clothes on their back and their book bags for school. She can get the rest.

Yes. In plan A you invite her all the time.
Any opportunity you can have you use to make
Love bank deposits.

I dont know if the mut move was a plan a operation.

In plan A you want to make as many love bank deposits as possible while avoiding withdrawals.

So invite her everywhere. Dress good. Personally I dressed like a slob my whole life and didn't even know until I read the Art of Manliness.
Make sure you dress well, wear cologne and clean shaven.

Workout.
Avoid excess alcohol and be to bed on time.
Be as attractive as possible to her.

I would not help exchange the boys at all.
If her wicked heart wants to tear your family apart then she can go the extra mile.
Hopefully they cry and scream the whole time they are at your in laws house

FG,

I've had a busy couple of days (apparently so have you) and just caught up on your post. I am so intrigued by you and your actions. It is okay to make mistakes, you are still learning and will learn from your mistakes.

Just wanted to let you know I think you are doing great and have hope that your wife will "defog" in the near future.

Thanks Jedi. I was dripping in new swag from head to toe at dinner tonight. Best I have looked since I married WW. WW totally was checking out my new shoes. Saw her do a double take. I was smellin' sweet too. Felt good..

I don't know if the mutt move was a plan a operation.

Wise old Zen Master say: In Plan A, all carrot and no stick makes the WS a fat [censored] donkey.

The mutt move was consistent with letting the consequences of the dung-tornado land on the WS. It was VERY Plan A.

Nothing to smooth over here. This POSXUW is not a friend of the marriage but a toxic friend of the marriage.

POSXUW fully supports affairs.

POSUXW is only being nice to you to get you to drink the Kool Aid.

POSUXW is trying to sell you and all of your exposure targets that POSOM is "just a friend"

You know what they say: you can pick your nose, but you can not pick your relatives.

POSUXW is a Trojan Horse, a 5th columnist, an opperative for the Dark Side.

POSUXW has nothing to offer you in any way as an alliance.

POSUXW has partnered up with the Axis Powers.

Seriously Road...

This MAY be the case but most likely XUW is just a confused friend unfamiliar with the dynamics of infidelity. Remember...this is only a couple months of waywardism. Outside of FlordidaGuy's home...his wife has been seemingly pretty normal to most outside observers up until now. My wife and I can spot fogginess in about 5 seconds of speaking to someone, but the generally public just let's comments like "he's just a guy friend supporting me" and "our problems go back years" pass right by giving the wayward the benefit of the doubt (as most people do with their friends). This is especially true in a situation where it's not [yet] a physical affair. "He's just a friend" rings much truer when the issue is an emotional affair. Point is...unless UXW has been out drinking and trolling the bars for men with your wife, she is not in the same class of enabler/enemy as the neighbor.

Certainly play your cards carefully with xUW. Wonder if she had an affair on your uncle that [secretly] caused their divorce. If so...she'll be vested in buying your wife's sob story. In fact, there are now several internet forums full of supposedly former wayward spouses ready to buy any story that makes the betrayed spouse the bad guy to blame for the waywards behavior. They tend to be "nice" forums full of grace but completely lacking truth. Perhaps the key signs from UXW would be if and when she starts in trying to get you to focus on what you did to hurt the marriage (as if that makes anything WW does OK). Waywards when not escaping into fantasy land prefer to distract everyone's attention towards the REAL PROBLEM ...the crack in the woman's bathroom on Deck 4 of the Titanic while expecting all to ignore/overlook the iceberg (she's/he's just a friend).


w

Great thread to read through...


Boundaries versus Manipulation/Conrol - an open discussion

FG: Let me repeat that TR's assessment of UXW is spot on. She is aligned with the dark side (and how predictable would it be to learn that her marriage broke up over her adultery?) and nothing she says is any direct use in guiding your goals and actions.

I also would repeat that feeding her disagreement with your moral position, and fostering her support for WW is not in your best interest. Far better, when confronted with someone whose position you know is wrong, would be to isolate your active consideration of their words, but mollify them by saying, "That's very interesting. How did you arrive at that?"

UXW WAS A WW!!! And loves to go out and booze it up and the bars every other week! Not good!!

I agree.
Don't get all heavy-handed with this guy .... USE HIM.
My suggestion is ....
Only send this uncle complimentary comments about WW.
Send this uncle optimistic views about your chances for recovery.
Make every reply to him very brief.
Do not discuss adultery/affairs at all.
Certainly, do NOT engage in any debates about MB ideals.

I also wanted to add that WW's brother is in a current relationship where HE is the POSOM!! WWB contacted old girlfriend through fb and they started a EA then moved to PA. She left her BS and now lives with WWB with her 5 children. While BS pays all their bills because WWB can't hold a job.

All while he continues to drink and get DUI's. All while my IL's did nothing. They invited WWB and his new woman, and entire family with open arms. Never saying anything to his face but always behind his back.

WWB just showed up one X-mas with all new Woman and FIVE kids like it was normal. This family is so screwed up and it scares me that my children will be raised in it.

The Road was right...who knew.


If Uxw was a wayward...that makes you Uncle the former betrayed husband. Thus, he's more likely to be sympathetic to your cause.


You mentioned earlier how great your uncle and his wife get along raising their child. What a horrible example for you wife to see. Uxw is likely feeding her all sorts of crap like...
"yeah...they get upset for awhile but it blows over...just be nice and everything will turn out ok" and the big lies.."the kids will be OK" and "a divorced home is better than an unhappy one."

Yup, UXW and SN are public enemies no. 1. Ugh... no wonder WW thinks her behaviour is acceptable.

I like the advice to feed UXW and maybe even SN admiration about your wife that will get reported back to her.

e.g. To UXW: I know WW. She is the best mother and wife, I know she will do the right thing. She has always taken excellent care of me and the boys.

to SN. how are you neighbour?, we had xxx for dinner last night, we sure miss WW, she makes the best xxx. Have a good day.

Sorry you got that impression. UXW and U fight very nasty. They do not like each-other at all. Part of WW's fog babble was that "we do not have to fight like U and UXW. We need to get along for the boys"

Thanks. I will not reach out to SN but can to UXW.

Any more examples that you have for UXW would be VERY helpful. Thanks!

I sent this to UXW

Hey [UXW],The boys had a great time at diner last night with [WW] there. They were in such a better place when I put them to bed last night. [WW] is a great mom and she always took care of the boys and me. I should have some time later to call ya since the boys will be with her this PM. Thanks!

Remember, every word you say, every action you take is strategic, not reactionary.

You are a quick study.

OK, so UXW and I have texted briefly about a time to talk. She had suggested that I bring my boys over to her house tomorrow so they can plan with her son (boys and her son are best friends like brothers).

We can talk while they are playing. Her BF will be there also and he is an awesome stand up guy so it will be be nice for him to be included.

Let me know any objections to this and if a good move need strategy for discussion.

Thanks!

Stay on message when communicating (indirectly) with the enemy.


I wonder if it would be wise to slip in your ideas about parallel parenting IF your marriage end up divorced.

Because her and your Uncle don't get along...you mention that, God forbid you divorce, that you would never want that kind of relationship with your wife. That you read about a different more appropriate custody plan for high-conflict divorce situations like yours would know doubt become if wife refuses to even try to fix it. Ask her for her input on parallel parenting...knowing that she'll communicate to your wife your intent to completely disassociate with [wife] should [wife] divorce you.


Just an idea.

We have a saying here: You cannot educate a foggy wayward.

It is especially true for a wayward as deeply embedded as UXW. For her to change her view, she would have to see that a large part of her adult life has been wrong and hurtful. That won't happen.

Whatever your mission in this meeting...you will need to be super focused. This could go south fast.

Maybe drudge up a few nice memories you wouldn't mind sharing.....or maybe some nice ones with three of you, followed by a statement.. something like..... those were some good times, I know we can have many more great memories together if we work things out.

This cannot be emphasized enough.


Your message should be offering either; an open door to a new, great marriage, or a closed door - "I have no interest in being anything other than her husband. I want all of her, or none of her."

I'd bet a dollar that UXW is going to rattle off some fog logic to you - DO NOT REACT TO IT!

You should have your canned responses ready for fog logic - "That's nice, but I want to have a great marriage." "That's nice, but I have no interest in destroying my family."

Treat UXW as a proxy wayward in this regard, as if you are speaking directly to your foggy wife. Do this because everything you say will be fog-filtered and repeated.

This is awesome everybody. Need more canned responses. Like when we had the talk with the kids. Or after exposure talk. I can rinse and repeat. Great stuff. Thanks!

I received this email from MIL this AM. Have not responded.


I just wanted to let you know that if you or your Father don't come pick up [dog] by noon today, I am calling the sheriff's office. �I want to ask them if it is legal in Florida for someone to come onto my husband's and my property after dark and leave an animal on my porch without my knowledge or permission. �

I get it that this is something that you imagined you were doing to [WW] but this is not [WW's] property. �It is my husband's and mine. �

I would not send anything in writing to MIL being she is threatening to bring in the law.

I would call MIL, state that you are hurt that she would call the police on you being that you were a good SIL.

Then using a calm and nice voice tell MIL:
WW has chosen to no longer live in my home.
You took her into yours.
Well being WW no longer lives with me her dog must follow WW.
You can not take in WW dog and she is your DD.
Yet WW has left me, is banging OM, and you MIL expect me to keep WW dog.
If you were doing what WW did to me to FIL would you expect FIL to keep his cheating wife's dog.
WW, as with her affair, continues to jump first and look second.
If you can not take in WW's dog the. Then WW needs to give the dog to her OM. WW is giving everthing else to the OM.

This is the stick to the carrot and stick of plan A.
Consequences for WW's affair and those that support WW's affair.

Man UP.

I agree. Do not respond in writing. Follow TR's advice.

I would not respond.
This is the time when people show their true colors.
If she was to enable her daughters self destructive behavior then do be it.
My in laws were/are enablers too

I think this is the best plan. IL's have NEVER responded to any of my emails. Why should I respond to theirs now? I don't think the the sheriff's office is going to be of any help to them. Any thoughts of what could come if she did contact them?
This just confirms operation "mut move" IS causing discomfort for WW living at IL's as intended. While I reap the benefits of having a peaceful home environment.

�He who is prudent and lies in wait for an enemy who is not, will be victorious.�

I have an idea of what will happen.
First the dispatcher will ask if this is an emergency.
Then when they hear the word "dog" or "animal" they will want to transfer her to animal control.
After being on the phone for 30 minutes explaining that her son in law dropped off her daughters dog, she will probably be told its a civil matter and they can't be involved.

Edit: if the dog is licensed by the county and the license is in your name then you would be responsible for the dog.

Jedi. We think alike... DOG HAS NO LICENSE!!

Then, when animal control gets involved and the dog is unlicensed and has no rabies vaccine your inlaws may get fined.

Nice move MIL calling the sheriff on the unlicensed dog.

I feel sorry for the dog. Can you suggest that MIL contact a no kill or breed specific rescue for the dog? MIL and WW need to find their inner humanity and re home this dog and stop treating it like its a BH. Like you, it has done nothing wrong except offer up love. GF

Perfect! haha.. WW has MIL fighting her battles.. she's back to her teenage days. lol. I agree don't respond.

Per WW yesterday. Today is MIL's first day back to work. She was given permission to work remotely from home. MIL's job requires her to be on the phone almost all day.

I can just picture her trying to talk to clients all while WW's dog is barking excessively at every moving car or person walking by.

IL's new home is on a golf course with the tee box just a few feet from their back porch. That dog is probably going wild as each golf cart comes closer and closer to the house. Gotta be a nightmare for the IL's but I realize they are not allies in this fight.

You can call animal control and find out yourself. Then you will KNOW what they might do. You could also get suggestions from them on some great no kill shelters for dogs.




Well there is certainly a lot of drama and painting of YOU as the bad guy. You could take the higher road and give your WW the list of great loving shelters that SHE could take her dog to if she is unable to care for it.

Perhaps a sympathetic sheriff will agree to "talk to you" to make it clear to you that you don't or no longer have permission to enter their property.

It's not an interrogation. Don't give him/her any extra information. I would just look at him confused like and wonder if he was talking about the dog or you..."Wait...is the dog is trouble here or ME? Am I not allowed over there or her dog [incredulously]? Then play off like women are nuts "first she wants her dog...now she doesn't". This is craziness (implying your wife requested the dog and now she's acting like she doesn't want it because the IL's don't like it). Make it appear wife is pulling a fast one on Sheriff and her parents. "I brought my wife her dog as promised and she wasn't there so I left it for her on the porch. What was I supposed to do [frustrated husband look]????

Never indicate you snuck the dog over and secretly opened the door and allowed it in when no one was looking.
Sheriff will return to his/her car frustrated that she/he ever got involved. If MIL talks to him/her again...(s)he'll just tell her mission accomplished...message delivered. The cop isn't going to get into the he said/she said over a dog.


W

Awesome MR. W as always. Thanks!

Well, well, well.....
Colleagues, it appears our friend FG is getting the hang of battling waywards and their enablers.

FG: You got it - do not respond in any way. If through some miracle, the sheriff shows up, your answer is "What dog?"

You do not DENY dropping off Fido, you just avoid answering the question.

(BTW: Make sure there is NO evidence that pup was ever at your abode!)

Floridaguy are you in Plan A or Plan FU?

I am sure there is more to your question but I am in Plan A.

I actually had a nice conversation last night with WW about son's birthday party, what was going on with her work, etc. She called me when she got to IL's and we chatted for a few minutes. Very different then her usually just texting me. We discussed my plans for the weekend and I just texted her inviting her to join in those plans. I even snuck in the bowling idea and she talked about how she always wanted me to try bowling and that she would like to go with boys and I.

So yes, I am in Plan A.

This dog is a distraction.



How is this going? Do you have an attorney that is fighting in your best interests or one that is just trying to push through an amicable divorce?

Actually...pitting your wife against her parents might be interesting.

Don't do this unless others think it's a good idea (I'm a crazy one coming up with all sorts of passive aggressive responses when "no response" is usually the most prudent)...


"MIL,

I had the dog delivered to WW as a I promised I would. If you have a problem with that you need to speak to her about it. [again implying SHE, a known liar, requested the dog and is now trying to make you the bad guy here].

The sheriff is not going to charge a dog with trespassing but next time I have a dog delivered to your property I'll just have them stake him on a chain on the front lawn and hope the alligators don't get him.

Then again, you MAY have an animal control problem with an unlicensed dog. They can be reached at XXX-XXX-XXXX.

*btw...they don't know who, between your father, a stranger or you actually delivered the dog and opened their screen door. It'll be tough to ticket anyone without a specific identification of the "intruder".


Another possible response...

Write to your FIL...


I got this message from MIL this morning.

[quote MIL message]


You know about this???? Wow...this is what it's coming to? I give her her dog as promised what was I supposed to do...have them stake him on a chain in the yard and hope the Alligators didn't get him.

Listen. On XX/XX/XXXX [wedding date] you and MIL gave your daughter to me freely and of your own will. There are no take backs. (lol). I could understand you helping her out if we were actually divorced but as it stands right now she is still my wife and I feel that you and MIL taking her in, giving her money and babysitting the kids during her visitation is enabling this situation to progress to the point where it's enabling and now I'm getting threatening letters from your wife. I understand very much that you are confused about what the right thing to do in this situation is. I'm sure you want to help your daughter as best you can but I submit that the best way to help her MAY BE to tell her to stop her affair with OM and demand she go home and work on things with her husband. That you and your wife aren't going to condone her carousing about town partying and chatting it up with OM. Consider that your grandchildren are looking to you for help saving their family. You two are making it far to easy for her to abandon us. I'm a good man and I've been a decent husband and son-in-law. Nobody's perfect but I don't deserve this and neither do your grandchildren. At this point, our marriage appears repairable but with your help/interference that may not be the case much longer. Please respect my wishes and send my wife home.

Respectfully, FloridaGuy

What's your point, PF?

Are you suggesting that FG's ILs are innocent bystanders? Are you implying that either the children or the family finances have been negatively affected by his actions?

Seriously, I'm confused!

I have paperwork ready but have not filled yet. My lawyer is not giving me any advice on the issue other than to file for full custody when i am ready to file.

Her affair and choice to not move home is causing harm and effecting the innocent bystanders. Not sure they are innocent since they are enabling WW.

She can choose to move home, bring the dog, and work on our marriage at anytime.

Ok. So what do you think of this strategy?



It still applies the stick because it gives her the responsibility but you are now the loving DH trying to help her out. Of course you cannot take the dog to a shelter yourself because it is hers and ultimately her decision to make.

Think it through .

Her point is that we are, perhaps, letting the battle become about a dog versus a battle for his marriage.

She's bringing us all back around to the war at hand instead of getting sidetracked by the battle of the bark.

wayward wife likes the battle of the bark...because she can make floridaguy look and sound like a vindictive jerk. Moving beyond it to more important battles might be prudent.

Mr. W

Just get the over arching message across that you love and care for your wife and want to recover your marriage and know this can happen. You are very excited there is you a terrific plan to allow both you and your wife to fully negotiate a renewed and passionate marriage that meets both wife and your important emotional needs which you mistakenly neglected.

Ya don't want to allow this to become 'the war of the roses' and win the battles and lose the war. Ya don't want IL to gain traction and gaslight you along with wife and aide in any false impressions. They have decided divorce is imminent and you are the trouble maker that is making a bad situation even worse. This MIL doggy thing ---MIL sees dog as a problem associated via her daughters gaslighting w/you. She likely does not want to admit her own daughter's boomeranging is also trouble for her too, but likely associates her daughters trouble to you rather then her new lifestyle. They do not see any hope in their fog perspectives. Message to MIL: her daughters life style is causing trouble for all.

OK, can anybody help with a reply email that will get this message across or do not respond??

I was referring to his kids.

The IL's are jerks.

Thank you Mr W. This is turning into War of the Roses

I think the consensus says to not respond. I would agree with that.

I like the idea. However I can confidently say that Dr Harley would not support this.
The Bible says Thou shalt not lie.
So be honest in all that you do and live the good life.
Be honest enough so that you can take a lie detector and prove your honesty.

Don't respond.
They are going to call to ASK a question.
So what?

A clear honest statement when asked may be: Since you have chosen to have an affair and break up our family I no longer want to feed and shelter your dog.
When you choose to leave our home you are choosing to take your dog with you
I am willing to work with you to create a loving healthy marriage where both of our needs are met.
Until you are willing to end your affair I must focus on caring for the children and myself.

I am sticking to not replying. This will blow over like exposure, kids talk, etc.

I will just keep in Plan A and keep my home/me as the Lighthouse. She can come home and R at her choice.

The mind-meld of Mr W and Mrs Pep.

Alright get your 2X4's out. I replied. Could not resist. Here it is. SORRY EVERYBODY!!

Hello Mom,

Please know that I love and care for WW and want to recover our marriage and know this can happen. There is a path to allow both WW and I to fully negotiate a renewed and passionate marriage that meets both WW's and my important emotional needs which I have mistakenly neglected. I love both You and Dad and do not want to hurt anyone or destroy my family.

Love,

ME

OK. Remember, every word/action is strategic.
What is/was your goal?
What results might you anticipate?

You are going to have to tell us your strategic thinking behind this. "Could not resist" does not count.

1)I was trying to move the discussion from the dog to our marriage. And offer a solution that WW working on the marriage would/could eliminate their problem of the dog.

"The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting."



2) I expect they will do nothing BUT will show WW my email. I responded in a caring and positive manner. I was in control and not displaying acts of craziness.