Okay, the confrontation with my husband never happened last night. I got home very late because I was dealing with an unexpected situation back at my Dad's house. My Dad and my Stepmom were fighting (their marriage has been a little rocky) and I was watching my neice (who lives with them) and my son while they fought. Anyway, when I got home, my husband was already sleeping. I wasn't about to wake him up to talk. This morning before work he acted pretty normal. He talked to me, but not a whole lot. He left for work with a "C-ya" and that's about it.

When he comes home from work tonight, I'm sure we'll talk. I'm going to let him bring it up though. I was surprised by how I felt last night though. I was not nearly as nervous as I thought I was going to be. I found a little bit of confidence in myself. I have all of you to thank for that. You are the ones that are building up confidence in me - for now anyway. My feelings seem to change constantly. I hit rock bottom over the weekend and now I'm feeling okay. Not nearly great, but okay. Because of this situation, I have lost all self-respect for myself. My husband drained it out of me. I feel so weak. Today is an okay day though. Maybe it's because I saw my counselor too, I don't know.

Anyway, I'm rambling...I have some questions for all of you and I basically would really like to know if anyone else experienced the same thing, if it's typical behavior, if I should do anything about it, etc.....

My husband is so distant and cold to me. We show no affection to each other at all. We barely even touch each other. I feel like that is causing us to drift further and further apart. Should I be trying to give him hugs and kisses? I realize the timing is pretty bad right now because I'm exposing and he's angry, so maybe this isn't a good time to ask that question. The reason why I haven't been hugging and kissing him is because he is so cold and I'm afraid to. I'm afraid of rejection, I guess. I told him before that I wanted to do all of those things, but I told him I was afraid. I guess he understood. He just nodded.

His actions just seem like he's out of the marriage already. Has anyone else experienced this? Is it normal? He left Thanksgiving vacation early (Saturday @ 2:00) to go "hang out" with the OW. I think I posted that on this thread. If not, I did on my other one. Sorry! What I pain. He just won't stop being "friends" with her and I'm hoping my exposure is working.

I think he's unable to make a decision on what he wants because he still has 2 women in his life, kind of. He sees my personal changes as a good thing, but they're not making him want to be with me because he still has her in his life.

I can't remember if I posted this already or not, but right now we are living like friends or room mates. He said it's not too hard for him to live like this because he said we've lived like this before. He's probably right. We had some issues with sex, etc..in the past. He said things are actually better now because of the personal changes I have made. Anyway, he said that that is another thing that worries him though. He said he was hoping that would make a difference for him, but it didn't. I think it didn't is because he is still having contact with her.

Also, because we are not being physical, he has no idea how I would change my ways in fulfilling those needs. He really has no idea what it would be like to live with my with all of my changes because he's not allowing me to really be a wife to him. I don't think that can really happen until he gets that OW out of the picture.

By the way, my counselor loved the saying "your marriage can survive anger, but it can't survive an affair" Sorry to whoever I stole that from, but I used it today. I just told her that I was trying exposure and I was so worried about him being mad. She loved that saying. She said it was going to be the saying of the day! It's so true though.

Everyone on this site got me through the weekend, I just want you to all know that. If it weren't for all of you, I reall don't know what I would have done.

I look forward to getting some advice, suggestions, similar stories, etc...

THANK YOU TO ALL!

in_pain,

most definately. I am still having problems with it. Even though my wife left her job and works nowhere near him, he still will not leave her alone. Of course I do not blame him alone. My wife says he is just a friend. She says maybe they will talk a bit every few months or so. He texts her all the time. Many times there is nothing even written in the text message. I guess it is their little 'sign' to each other. i don't know about you, but I see this getting real old, real quick for a BS.

You are correct in that you and your WH will never be able to move on if contact is ongoing. So you must do what I did and really look at your marriage and decide if it is best for YOU. I don't know you, but what I do know is EVERYONE deserves someone who will love and repect them for who they are. Granted, we could probably all make changes in ourselves for the better, but an OM/OW shouldn't be held over our heads to force us to into those changes.

Good luck to you.

No contact means NO CONTACT! There is a reason Harley puts such emphasis on this. He mentions that he has seen couples reconcile, have a better M than before and the ex A partner re-enter the picture, say a few words and the A is back on. I personally don't know how anyone can be this weak minded but apparently it can happen and does happen so therefore his words of warning.

The WS's need NOTHING to do with the A partner or THEY need to go and have everything to do with the A partner and leave you the heck alone and allow you to move on to someone you deserve.

I'm so sorry for your situation, In Pain.

You must get rid of OW.

Have you exposed to everyone about their A yet?

Is she married?

~ Marsh

Friends can become lovers but lovers can never become friends

NO CONTACT

Until NO CONTACT the affair is not yet over. You continue in your Plan A until you are ready and able to Plan B.

Go to Just Found Out Board and read through "For Newly Betrayed Spouses" Thread by Longhorn. Longhorn's signature line also contains 3 links to other important threads like Spying 101 and Exposure 101. Go to the Main Website and fully read the materials and get the books. Become a marriage building expert and APPLY the principles to your life and marriage.

If you do this I guarantee YOU will make it. Whether you marriage survives or not...YOU will become a wholely capable person yourself.

Good luck,
Mr. Wondering

p.s. - a wayward spouse uses the "friends" ploy to just maintain the addiction...you must snoop to, once again, prove that it's not just a "friendship". Of course, you really don't need proof....they KNOW it's wrong but he is merely trying to manipulate you into accepting it. It's like the alcoholic that says he'll only drink socially once a month until you find that bottle of vodka in his trunk. I say, don't buy what he's selling.

Hey In Pain,
I am sorry you have to be here, but it is a great place to be under the circumstances.

I read your other posts and see that the OW is a co-worker. I have some questions for you.

Are they still co-workers?

Is she married?

Have you read Surviving an Affair?

Have your read up about plan A here on the site?

Also, DO NOT tell your wayward spouse about this site and the forums. You will be getting advice on how to break up the affair and win him back -- you don't want him on to your game plan.

Hang in there.

InPain,

"" have trouble getting rid of the other woman or the other man?""

Your "trouble" is your WH who still wants to be "FRIENDS" with the beeotch!

""He says he's confused and he doesn't know what he wants""

OH, HE KNOWS WHAT HE WANTS, ALL RIGHT!!! He wants to sit on the fence and eat his cake as long as YOU will let him. He probably is confused because he doesn't recognize himself, just like a crack-head or an alchoholic doesn't recognize what they are.., or rather what they have become!!

He is confused because his selfish, self-centered, quest for self-gratification has become the most important thing in his life!! Bigger than you, your precious 21 month old son, his whole family!

His confusion stems from his FOG...his addiction to OW. This confusion will remain as long as there is contact with her.

It looks like it is up to you to MAKE HIM SEE THE LIGHT!! Whatever these steps are, they must be taken. He must choose between you, his son, and his way of life OR the selfish, clingy OW and lead the life of a low-life.

It shows you how wacked the boy is because it is such a hard decision for him.

YOU BE STRONG and don't settle for less than full NC.

krk

Marshmallow,

""You must get rid of OW.""

Maybe you can re-phrase this so it doesn't show up as a episode of "CSI". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I know I have to get rid of her. I hate her!! I'm thinking about confronting her face to face. I sent her an e-mail, but she didn't reply. I want her away from my husband!! Any suggestions on how to do that? Most people do know about the affair. My parents know. His Mom knows (but, he doesn't know I told her). His father is deceased and; he passed away just 14 days before our son was born. It was since then that my husband's personality changed for the worse. Even his friends have said that he's a different person. They are co-workers. I forgot to mention that. Everyone in their office knows, including bosses. They don't know that though. They think only a handful of people know. I know this information because we have mutual friends in the office, which is what she used to be. No, she is not married. I don't even think she has ever had a boyfriend. I have never heard of one. I want her to go away. I just don't know how to do it!! I've even considered physical harm!

Hi moveforward:

Yes, they are still co-workers, unfortunately. No, she's not married. I don't even think she's ever had a boyfriend. None that I have ever heard about. I have not read any of the books yet and I still have a lot of reading to do on this site. I'm just looking for help because right now my husband isn't even ready to work on our marriage. I was going to tell him about the site only because I wanted him to read some of this, but you advise against it?

Ok, don't confront her, talk to her, or e-mail her.

What I meant to say, was you've got to end the A.



Why not? The idea is for his mom to put pressure on him to end the A.

Their office should be doing something about their A. You should write his bosses a letter, asking them to.

There are others here who can help you w/ the letter.

~ Marsh

Don't tell your husband about this site yet.

~ Marsh

krusht:

You could not have said things better. I know everything that you said is true. The big problem is that I want him back more than anything.

How do I make him see the light? How do I get him back? How do I get this poor excuse for a woman out of our lives?

Marsh:

You don't think I should confront her? Why not?

How do I end this affair?

You would have to know his mom to understand why I don't want him to know I told her. She is so weird. She would never do anything to put pressur on him. He is her son and she loves him. That's what I had to hear. She would never take sides even though she doesn't agree with him. She would never get involved. I know she wouldn't. I agree, their office should do something about the affair. I arranged it that they don't work on the same jobs together anymore. They are both CPA's and audit companies. So, they no longer work on the same jobs, I hope. My understanding is that if my husband was one position higher, she could lose her job. But apparently, because he is not in a high enough position, they can't do anything. It's very stupid.

Ok, in_pain ~

First of all, NO phsysical pain, ok? I'm sure you already KNOW this, but you're so out of your mind with hurt and pain and shock that you are thinking crazy thoughts. I know, I remember. Squelch those NOW so you can start doing what you NEED to do...things that are going to help you M. Hurting the OW isn't gonna help. Don't worry, though, she's gonna feel some emotional pain, and humiliation real fast here. Oh, and she'll lose friends over it as well, people will see how slimy she is and want nothing to do with her. Happened to the OW in our case, and that feels GOOD. I almost wanna jump up and down and clap my hands for joy when I think about it...but my heart just gets a sick little smile on it instead. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

First, you need to expose MORE. Especially at their work. Don't try to hide it from them that a lot of people know!!! That is a mistake. You will need the back up from the DISGUST that other people will feel for the two of them.

One of them is going to have to leave their place of work...if you don't think OW will, then your H needs to. Period. Sounds really extreme and lame, I know, but it's necessary.

In the meantime, can he at least take a leave of absence? Ask him if he would be willing to do that, in order to give your marriage and YOUR BABY a fair chance at recovery. As long as there is contact, you will not be in recovery.

Keep posting here, read, read, read, and ask for help and support. You'll get it here, if you want it.

Good luck to you!

~MF

No, She's not worth your effort. Plus she won't care what you say or do. And since you'd like to physically harm her, I'd definitely stay away from her. We don't want you ending up in jail. Remember, you have a little one to think of.

Your best tool to break this thing up is exposure.

Does she belong to a church? Does your husband?

Expose to whoever you think might put pressure on them to end it.

Have you read up about Plan A?

~ Marsh

ok, take a deep breath and let's get a plan going.

ready?


I bummped up the thread The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A for you.

We are going to start with exposure:
Ok,you said that the people in the office know. Their bosses know? Have you spoken to them directly? I would suggest writing a letter to their supervisors. Tell them you are aware your husband and this woman are having an afair but you are determined to fight for your marriage. Remind them this leaves them wide open for sexual harrassment charges. Ask them what they plan to do about it. If you get no response, go higher.

Next,
You mmust call his mother, his sibilings, good friends, cousins, etc. You must tell them you want to save your marriage and ask they they support you and not him in this.

This should be done all at one time- do not tell him you are exposing.

Next, you need to track down her family. Call her mothe/father. Tell them she is having an affair with a married man and a father. Maybe they will put pressure on her as well.


Try to do all exposure on the same day. Do not give them a chance to tell possible exposure targets that you are a cray person and they are 'just friends'

Read the Carrot and the Stick and come back and post your questions.

hang in there

Here's a list of Do's and Don'ts from Mr. W...


DOs

1. Act Happy
2. Get a life (new activities, etc.)
3. repeat over and over..."I will make it"
4. Actively LISTEN....keep conversations at "to the point...small talk" ...don't blow it up beyond the waywards current comfort zone
5. Tend to Agree (Thank you for your truthfulness, It seems that way, you have a point)
6. Expand your social relationships (Being especially aware of your own vulnerability and keeping sharing and time with opposite sex relationships to an absolute minimum)
7. Get sexy (gym, new clothes, etc)
8. Focus on your strengths and Positives...don't put yourself down verbally or constantly go over what you did wrong
9. Accept Uncertainty (Do your best today and let God take care of tommorrow)

DON'Ts

1. Repeatedly say "I love you"
2. Ask questions that don't have answers yet
3. Criticize, complain, whine or nag
4. Say, "I've changed"....allow the wayward spouse to simply judge your actions
5. Argue, Reason or Plead
6. Don't get family or friends overly involved in recovery (notice I said "in recovery", EXPOSURE to bust up an active affair IS ESSENTIAL and EXPOSURE to the OP's spouse is an absolute MUST)
7. Act helpless or depressed
8. Discuss morality, invoke God or Dr. Laura type babble
9. Suggest marital counseling (must be the waywards idea)
10. Tell them continually "we need to work on the relationship"
11. GIVE UP

The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A

The carrot of Plan A


Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.



The stick of Plan A


Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not appologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.

Definitely don't tell him (or anyone in your circle of friends) about this site yet!! You need to be able to talk freely here, and if he reads the advice you are getting it is going to make it harder for you to be effective in breaking up this affair and healing your marriage.

InPain,

Somehow you have to look him in the eye and say "IT'S MY WAY OR THE HIGH-WAY". (He will NOT do this on his own.)

It must come down to forcing him to choose.

There can be three options.

He chooses his family, you, and his son.

He chooses her.

He chooses to do nothing and continues down his cake eating/fence sitting path.

Two of these choices result in Plan B or Plan D (divorce)

""The big problem is that I want him back more than anything. ""

So will you accept 1/2 of him back, while the other 1/2 is with OW?? Can you live with his continued fence sitting and his lies, whining, and confusion?? All this DRAMA??

What is worse?, living without him and living a normal life with your son or living with him and the continued emotional rollercoaster and heartbreak that will result.

Plus the longer you live with this the less you will feel for him, and that love you feel now will turn to hate or at least a fair amount of loathing at the sight of him.

How long has it been since you discovered this?

krk

Thanks MarriedForever:

I know I can't hurt her physically. I know that only because I can't do anything that would hurt me with custody of my son, if it should come to that.

How do I let them know that everyone at work knows? Neither one of them seem to think they have done anything wrong. They act totally cool around the people that do know. I swear, she does not have a heart or a soul. I wish you knew her too. She always seemed so perfect and moral. That's the impression she gives people. She acts so perfect. She's disgusting. Just thinking about her makes my skin crawl.

One of my bigger problems is my husband's unwillingness to work with me. He refuses the no contact. He won't commit to working on the marriage. He is so distant from me. We have no physical contact anymore. We basically live like friends. I hate it. It's crushing me and I don't know what to do.

We are going to counseling. I've had a few sessions by myself. He went to a men's group and then we went one time together. We have another appointment next week together. But, we really don't fit the bill for marriage counseling because 1) he's not willing to commit and 2) he's not willing to have no contact. Those are the criteria the counselor needs to have. So, I just don't know what to do. I want my husband back. I have thought about suicide many times. My son is the ONLY reason I am still here. I can't imagine living life without my husband. I thought our relationship was strong. I NEVER thought he could do this to me. This isn't like him. Although, he changed a lot after his dad passed away suddenly and he became a different person. I'm at a loss.

Ok, counseling for you is great, however, until your husband has ended the affair, MC will do no good...You've received good advice so far...What you want to do is Plan A your husband...Which means, meeting all of his emotional needs that he allows you to-become the best wife you can be AND Expose this affair immediately...This will make your husband very angry, but that is okay, because his anger your marriage can survive, but it can not and will not survive an ongoing affair...You can rest assured that once you expose them at work, they will know it...Get cracking on that letter and finding the OW's parents...

Also, your saying "this isn't like him" is a good sign, as this behavior is likely an abberation of character for him, rather than a lack of character...Once this affair has ended, and he gets out of the "fog" and goes through withdrawal, your marriage will be VERY salvagable...

Suicide is NOT an option...That is a very selfish act and your DS needs you...keep that line of thinking going...You are the only sane parent he has right now...You can do this, and you will be okay...Keep reading and posting and allow this board to be your lifeline...And I want to reiterate not telling your husband about this site right now...You can't educate a WS, so don't try...Hang in there, we are here!

Mrs. W

You're giving the OW and your WH far too much power over your life and emotions. I've been in your shoes and know its not easy, esp since the OW was a friend. And I'm very sorry you've been betrayed so terribly.

I assume you're in Plan A, no? If so, for how long?

Jo

"You can be friends with your affair partner or married to me but not both."

If you aren't willing to actually walk away from the marriage there is no compelling reason for the affairees to change their steps..you are a given so they can do just as they wish.

My suspicion based on your first post is that the affair isn't past tense. I think it's active. I haven't encountered any truly former waywards who did not recognize the affair as the ugly brutal rape that it is and obviously after acknowledging this asking that you remain "friends" seems kinda well...stupid.

krusht:

I wish I felt that strong. I don't have the confidence to do that because I really don't think he would choose me. He would leave and that's not what I want. I was going to take my son and leave. I wrote him a letter and then we talked. I told him I can't live like this anymore. I told him that I can't stand the distance and I cannot tolerate him spending time with her. We talked and he said that if any one of us is going to leave, he should. He said that he would look for an apartment. So, he would be okay with that. I asked him that if he did move out if it would be over between us and he said yes. Then, I asked him if he stayed at home and we continued to live like we are, if it would be over and he said he didn't know. So, I came to the conclusion that if living like we are can still give me some hope, then I would tough it out. If I have to choose between him leaving and our marriage being over to him staying and living like we are with a chance of it working, then I'll chose living like we are.

My counselor said I could also take an "I can, I can't, I will, I won't" approach. She said I can say, "I can live like this for X amount of time, but I can't live like this forever" or "I will live like this for an X amount of time, but I won't live like this forever". So, I talked to my husband about that and I guess we didn't make a definite decision. He didn't say he was definitely moving out and we didn't come up with a time frame for the "I can, I can't, I will, I won't" approach. So, I guess we need to come up with a time frame for that. I'm not sure what an appropriate amount of time is to wait.

I just feel like I have no control. I feel that if I do take a stand, he'll just leave and she will win.

I know it sounds crazy, but having him home with me at night is better than him leaving. I don't want to live without him, so having him at home with me as friends is better than not having him at all.

I found out about the affair the first friday in October. I forget the actual date. Friends of ours came to me and told me that an affair was definitely going on. These friends are also co-workers of my husbands and hers and also friends of hers. Well, they were friends of hers; they're not now. She has no friends. Anyway, one of these friends found a letter in my husbands desk from her. It basically left no question as to what was going on. The friend who found the letter made a copy of it and has it, but didn't show it to me yet. I'm not ready to see it. She said she would show it to me when I was ready. My friends and I had somewhat of an "intervention" on October 10th with him and exposed him. This was our anniversary. Not a great day. It was then that he said he would work on our marriage. That was a Tuesday night. On Friday of that week, he sobbed on my shoulder and told me that he wanted to be a better person, that he would be a better person, he said he was sorry, he was sorry for giving up on us and for not communicating with me, he said he didn't want to lose our son and our life together, he said he would make it up to me. He said that we would have a new beginning and start all over. The following Friday he told me to forget about what he said the Friday before. He said he doesn't feel that way anymore. So, I was crushed all over again.

When we had that "intervention", all I wanted to hear was that he wanted to work on our marriage. That's all I hoped and prayed for. I got to hear that, but then he took it all away from me by telling me he didn't feel that way anymore and he doesn't know what he wants.

I'll backtrack a little bit, when I found out about the affair, I really wasn't that surprised. It just confirmed what I was fearing for months. From May to September, he was never home. He went out all the time. He would come home from work, eat supper and then get changed and be gone by 8:30 or 9:00 and then not come home most times until 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning. I spent many nights crying and pacing the floors. He never saw our son. In those months, he never changed his diaper, gave him a bath, put him to bed, fed him, nothing! My son didn't know his Dad and he didn't know him. It was very sad. I couldn't leave them alone together - ever. My son would cry. Many times, I knew he was with the OW. Sometimes, he would tell me he was going to her apartment to "hang out" so I knew that's where he was. Or I would drive over to her apartment and see his car there and then sit in the parking lot and cry. He was "honest" with me that he was "hanging out" with her because he insisted that they were just friends. I heard him say that for months. "We're just friends, we just hang out and talk." Right....I knew something was going on, I just wanted to believe him so badly.

So, since October, he has been home a lot. He comes home after work and he stays home. He plays with our son, he helps give him a bath, etc... I see a big difference in our son now. He actually cries when my husband leaves now. Before, he used to just wave and not care. He was so used to seeing the back of his Dad's head. Now, he's home. So, I told my husband that I was so glad he came back home; I just wish he would come back to me.

So, that's some more information!! I'd appreciate any feedback from anyone!!!!!!

Thank you!

in_pain...

Are you ready and willing to expose this affair further? That IS what this is going to take...

Mrs. W

Listen to MRS W on this. Expose the Affair to the light of day NOW. Set boundaries for you and your son and show quiet confidence even if you don't feel that way. Don't be needy.

As far as her winning goes would she really be winning in getting the man that your WH has turned into?

Mrs. W:

I was actually just going to write a new post on exposure. Like I've said before, everyone at his work knows, but he and the OW does not know this. I would like to write a letter or e-mail to his boss regarding the affair, but I just don't know how to go about doing this. Can anyone help with this? Also, the OW is not from the town we live in. Her parents live about 4 hours away. The company they work for has an office relatively close to where her parents live. I wanted to address this in the letter to her boss. Why can't they strongly suggest or recommend that she transfer? One of our friends that works with them said that they have to be careful of getting sued??? I want her out of our town!!

Also, I think I found her parents phone number online. All I know is her Dad's first and last name and the town they live in. I think I have the right person. An address is there too. Do you think I should call him and talk to him? She is there all this week for Thanksgiving. I'm not even sure what to say to him. I don't think I want him to know it's me. I'd rather act like a friend. I want to see if he could convince her to move back home as well. There is nothing in our town for her anymore. She has no friends. All she has is her job, which she can get another job somewhere else.

Any thoughts????

Another thing I wanted to say about exposure. Whenever someone does talk to her about the affair and their friendship, my husband gets so mad. If she is upset in any way he gets mad. He tells me that it doesn't help when people "bug" her about it because it only brings them closer. He said that neither one of them have any friends anymore, so it just brings them closer. That hurts me to the core!!!!!! He said that people that were his friends are treating him differently too. So, he said he doesn't have friends anymore either. He said they only have each other. That makes me furious!!!!!!!!

So, this affair ruined so much for so many people. We had a large group of friends that always hung out together - for football games, parties, etc...Ever since this happened, no one gets together anymore. So, in a sense, my social life has been affected too.

It just makes me so mad when he said they are getting closer because they don't have any friends.

When we first confronted him about the affair, he said he wanted to work on our marriage. He was also worried about her being left alone. He didn't want her to not have anyone. He asked two of our friends to "look out" for her adn to "be there" for her. They said they would, even though they were upset with her. Well, she never backed off of my husband, so that really made them mad, so they really didn't try with her. Although, she didn't try with them either. So, my husband said no one is there for her. So, I guess he feels like he needs to be. So, my relationship has to suffer because she doesn't have any friends. That's not my fault. I can't make people be her friend. She wouldn't have any friends at all if it wasn't for me and my husband in the first place. She only made friends because we invited her into the group when she first started working there. That's another reason it made it so easy for my husband to start hanging out with her. She never had any plans; she was always available. She doesn't have a life.

Shouldn't that tell my husband something.......

Be sure to call her father. Tell him what is going on, and that his daughter is breaking up your family, and that you want to save your marriage, and would appreciate any help.

Have you been doing a good Plan A?

I really have to do more reading about Plan A and Plan B. I think I've been doing Plan A for quite some time. I have been making a lot of personal changes. I am really trying to be a better person to be around.

What do you do if your spouse doesn't have any interest in showing any affection? This is something that I'm not used to. My husband always showed a lot of interest in me and now he doesn't even want to touch me. It breaks my heart!

The no affection thing will continue until there is no contact with the OW. Most WS's refuse to give affection, although some continue with both the OW and wife.

That's what I was thinking. I need to get rid of her somehow. As long as he "hangs out" with her, he is going to remain confused. He says hes confused and he doesn't know what he, but he's not really doing anything to find out. I don't think so anyway. I think he's just waiting to wake up one day and have something snap to let him know what he wants.

I'd like to snap something - the OW's neck!!!

I have one more thing to say about the Plan A thing. Like I said, I've been making personal changes. I've been much more pleasant. I've been trying to not let little things upset me; I've been much more relaxed, not as uptight. I think I'm doing really well. My husband even said that he has noticed the changes that I have made. He said that things are better at home than they used to be. He feels that we lived like friends before (which he's probably right - I should have showed more affection than I did) and now they're better because I am nicer, etc...However, he said he thought that would make a difference and matter more, but it hasn't. I guess he was hoping that would help him make a decision, but it hasn't. So, I guess my Plan A isn't helping him make a decision. He is still seeing and talking to the OW way too much. I'm not ready for Plan B. I would lose him. So what do I do. Continue with Plan A?

I would really love to share some of these responses with my husband. I know I can't show him the site, but would it be safe to show him some of the things that some of you are saying? I'm just looking for any way at all to open his eyes. I am so desparate!!!

How long have you been in Plan A? It takes several months, and even then often doesn't work. That's why there is Plan B.

Well, that's hard to say. I knew for sure about the affair the first Friday in October. He knew I knew about the affair on October 10th.

However, I knew my marriage was in trouble since May, so I tried to make changes in May.

I know I'm not ready for Plan B yet. I would lose him.

If you want to share with him, purchase the book surving and affair and read it together.


Please try to keep all of your threads on one thread <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> For those of us who are following your sitch and trying to help, it just makes it easier. It also helps you not to have to keep repeating your story.,

Good idea! Sorry! I just thought if I had a new topic I should post again. I thought I'd get more traffic or responses that way. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

If you want to change the topic, go to the first post on this thread and change the subject...that way folks who can help you will see your title and come by.

You can change your title as many times as you like.

~ Marsh

These affairs ALWAYS end. So it is mostly hanging in there and staying in Plan A, and avoiding fights.

Plan A needs to last 3 months. So concentrate on that.

What did your WH complain about BEFORE the A?

Thanks, I'll try that!

Hi IP,

Good to know you are aware NOT to bring your husband here. Its the MB golden rule of thumb as this place is your safe haven and support place.

Also, you should not try to educate your husband as long as he is cheating. Harley advises against it.

Well, that's good news, I guess. I just don't feel that lucky. I'll be a part of the small percentage that they will stay together.

My husband mainly complained about not enough time in the bedroom, not enough intimacy. He's right. I didn't give him enough attention - in or out of the bedroom. I took him for granted. I should have been nicer to him. I knew we had troubles, but I thought we had a strong relationship. I thought we were so strong that we could get through anything. He would try to talk to me, but I didn't see how serious our problems were. I didn't know our relationship was in trouble.

That's one reason he doesn't know if he wants to try. He feels like he did try. He said he's tried for 6 years and he's exhausted with trying. He doesn't know if he wants to try again.

I feel differently about that. I didn't know the whole story. I wasn't on the same page as him. I didn't really know the root of the problem and I didn't know it was this serious.

He is a wimp if he thinks he tried enough. When mine babbled the same, I told him if that's the best he can do, then he ought to leave because I don't want to live with a wimp.

LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

L.

IP...

Read this link Pepperband's Carrot & Stick of Plan A

Mrs. W

So, what did he do?

I have one more thing to add about not meeting my husbands needs. I just read a thread from JulieW in the General Questions II called "I cannot satisfy my husband" and it seriously sounded like me!! I didn't know other people had the same problem as me. You know, it's so weird. I want him more now than ever - sexually, physically, emotionally...I miss him so much. I guess the saying holds true = "you don't know what you've got until it's gone". I would do anything to have my husband want me like he used to. Anything....

But, that was a big problem in my relationship. My sex drive was always so low. That's played a huge role in him having an affair. It may be causing the problems now too. Maybe he's afraid to work on our marriage because he doesn't want to have that type of relationship again. He said we lived like friends before, so this isn't so hard for him now. Plus, he said it's actually better because I'm acting like a better person. Also, maybe sex with the OW was so much better, so that is causing him to possibly want her instead of me. We never really had PASSION in our marriage. Maybe he found this passion with her.

Another thing that makes this affair so horrible is that my husband and I are high school sweethearts. We started dating at age 15. We waited until we got married to have sex (8 years) and we were both virgins. He was my one and only and I was his, until this OW. It's hard for me to even call her a woman. So, now I have to deal with the fact that I'm no longer his one and only.

I feel like nothing is just ours anymore. It hurts so bad. I can't believe he did this to me.

I don't know what to do. I can't stand this hurt anymore. I feel so alone. I want my husband back; I miss him so much. I miss the way he used to look at me. I miss our talks. I miss sleeping with him. I miss laying in bed with him. I miss everything. I want my old life back. I can't go on. I feel so helpless. I don't want to live anymore. It hurts too much. I love him to much and I think I'm going to lose him. I know I can't handle it.

How do I convince him that things will be SO different if he just give me a chance? Especially since he won't even touch me now.

HELP ME PLEASE!!!!!!!

Try and concentrate on the plan. Others will guide you and help you. It is so easy to be overwhelmed by your feelings. You are a much better deal than she is. He has a lot to lose and it will not be long before he realises this.She hasnt a great deal to offer in the future other than trouble.

I REALLY hope you're right. When I asked him how many times it happened, he said he didn't know. It happened too many times to count, basically. I found out in October and it was going on since June. So, they were having a lot of sex and I don't know if I can get passed that. Our sex life was never that frequent. And it was my fault. All of this is my fault. I'm so afraid I'm not going to get him back.

IP...

Doing something will help you to feel better...Let's work the plan...Get started on exposure...When are you going to call OW's parents?

Mrs. W

Mrs. W.

I was going to call the OW parents today or tomorrow. I want to do it, but something keeps stopping me. I'm so fearful.

I know everyone keeps saying to EXPOSE on this site and it does make sense. I'm having trouble trusting that. Maybe because I don't trust anything anymore. I just keep thinking about what happened everytime someone new did find out about the affair. Everytime they were exposed, it seemed to bring them closer. He feels sorry for her and he runs to her. He feels responsible for the affair because he told me that he "brought her into this". I quickly nipped that in the bud!!! I told him that she had her own mind and she was responsible for her own actions. She knew what she was doing was wrong from day 1 and she willingly did it. It's not like he forced her. He seems so worried about her feelings and her getting hurt. What about me? What about the hurt I feel? Why doesn't that matter to him? Is that normal?

One thing that keeps coming back to me is...he knew that I knew about the affair on Oct 10th. He told me he would work on the marriage. On Oct 21st, it was Homecoming for our college. The OW went to the same college as us, but years later. She's 6 years younger than us. The OW is also in the same sorority as me - how ironic! She betrayed me om a sisterhood level too. Anyway, our sorority was having a 15 year anniversary reunion that weekend that I planned. She had the nerve to come! Anyway, my best friend (in her drunken state) told many people there (my sorority sisters) about the affair. Several of the sisters went up to the OW and said some things to her. She, of course, told my husband what was going on and he got furious and was going to leave me there to go talk to her. I begged and pleaded with him to go talk to me. He talked to me until about midnight (for about an hour or so) and then he went to her apartment to talk to her and see how she was doing. He didn't get home until 5:00 am. I was up crying all night. That was the night he also told me that he didn't know if he wanted to work on the marriage anymore and he told me to forget everything he said prior to that. He said he didn't feel that way anymore and that he probably didn't want to be married to me at all.

From that night on, he started hanging out with her more. They started traveling for work together, he started going over to her apartment again to havg out, etc...That exposure really did seem to bring them closer.

So, what do I do?????

It is very common for the adulterers to "appear" to come together after exposure.

Consider it

"Clinging in Chaos" versus "bonding in bliss"

Having read on these boards for a couple years now I can safely guarantee you that EXPOSURE is the beginning of the end. That "end" may not BE marital recovery..Can't guarantee that...but what is going to happen is going to happen. God's will...will be done whatever that may be. But by being a strong woman and fighting this good fight with all you've got ... YOU will come out of this stronger and with your integrity intact. Besides a STRONG woman is more attractive to the wayward husband and hence more likely to win when the wayward inevitably begins to consider their options.

Remember...If he leaves...it's better than what you've got today. Doing nothing is just no longer acceptable TO YOU.

You have nothing to fear but fear itself.

Mr. Wondering

Expose the affair. That is what you do. Yours is an example of why you can't do a little bit at a time. It was just enough to tick them off, but not enough to cause any real, lasting damage. You brought a pee shooter to a gun fight and were quickly extinguished. As you can see, they quickly recovered.

This time, make up a list of key targets, such as employer, her parents, his parents, close friends and call them all in the same day. This will give you the maximum impact and they won't be able to quickly recover the damage.

Look at it like this and you will understand the power of exposure: Affairees are like crack addicts. Imagine bringing a crowd of ppl into the crack house to witness the affairees smoke crack. It is no fun to smoke crack in front of an audience. It ruins the high and makes them feel sleazy.

Same thing with an affair. It may not end the affair immediately, but it will begin the ruination of the fantasy, which is ruinous to the affair.

So, get to work, InPain, and start doing a REAL Plan A, which includes exposure.

Hey In_Pain,
I just re-read all of your posts here.

You need to come up with a firm plan of action. Here are my suggestions:

Exposure:
Office Supervisor with copy sent to HR department.
Re-expose to his mother. I know she is weird but, you need all the help you can get.
Expose to his siblings and thier spouses.
Call her parents.

I would send the email out tonight and have everyone's number ready to call on Sunday when you know he will be with her.
Write an email to your soriority national office.

When he tells you he is going to her house to hang out, what is your response? Without Love Busting you need to make it clear that action is unacceptable to you.

You said you are making positive changes. What other changes need to be made?

I have a date at the gym this morning. Recreational companionship, ya know? I'll try to check back with you later on today.

moveforward:

I think I'm doing pretty well on the positive personal changes. I am a much more relaxed, more pleasant person to be around. And he knows that.

The biggest change that needs to be made is the "no affection" problem. He are living like friends or room mates and I hate it. We don't hug, kiss, nothing.

I need help with that. He's not interested anymore. So not like him.

I have an important question for everyone out there and would love feedback.

Did any of you experience your spouse not wanting to get dressed in front of you. It seems like my husband leaves the room when I am dressing and he doesn't dress in front of me much anymore. He used to walk around nude with no trouble. Now, for example, this morning his quickly took his pants on and slipped his boxers on without even standing upright. It just seems like he doesn't want to be naked around me anymore. If that's the case, how am I supposed to have sex with him, or get him to have it with me I should say? I don't know what to do. I don't know how to reach him anymore. I'm scared to death!!!

Has this happened to anyone else? If so, how did you make changes?

Please help!!

In Pain, change the topic of your post on the main page to something like- husband refusing sex or something such--
hang in there

My husband is so distant. He talks to me like we're friends, but he seems very disinterested when I try and talk to him about something. He is so disconnected.

He doesn't seem to even want to dress in front of me or be in the room when I dress.

He left early this weekend from my mother-in-law's. He left around 2:15 on Saturday. I'm sure he went to be with the OW. I'm sure he's with her today too. I don't even know if he spent the night there because I'm in a different town.

I cried all night last night and I have a feeling I'll be doing the same today.

He just seems like he has no interest in me.

What do I do with the rage I feel for the OW? I had thoughts of killing her last night and then killing myself. I would like to think I wouldn't do something like that, but I am hurting so much.

Help me, please. I have nowhere to turn.

Look, you have got to quit being a victim and take a stand.

Get on the phone and expose- call everyone and anyone and tell them you want to save your marriage. Talk to your mother in law again- Surely after seeing your pain since he left yesterday she has to be a little mnore sympathetic to you.

I think you need to call your counselor and work through this anger at the OW,

I am not trying to be mean, but you need to take some action. Sitting around crying is getting you no where.

GO EXPOSE: MIL, BIL and SIL, Call his boss at the office since you know him- EXPOSE, EXPOSE, EXPOSE.

I know you are afraid, but if you keep on like you are now, you are only hurting your chances instead of helping them.

You have become a doormat.

I think you need to get up and make those phone calls, pack up and head home.

I think you might need to prepare yourself that he left you in another town to move out.

If that is what has happened, then stay calm. Get on here and post and we will help you adjust your plan.

Expose- call your counselor and quit talking about killing anyone.

I, obviously, don't know how to change my subject line on the Main Index to get people to reply to my messages. I'm too depressed and frustrated today to try and figure it out.

ok, don't sweat it.

just thought it would help you get noticed- but your other thread is getting noticed.

you ok?

You've got mail <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi IP,

So glad to know you're okay hon.

Listen, you're not alone in this. Most the folks here have felt as you do sometime throughout their ordeal. Its one of the most devistating life altering situations one can go through. Some claim worse than death of a loved one.

Can you make an appt to see your PC physician on Monday to get anti-deps? Your need to take AD is temporary and for situational depression. You need them to get through this.

Prayers for you,
Jo

IP...

If you want to change your subject line, you just go to the first post on the thread and edit it...I understand not knowing how to do that, it took me a bit to figure it out too! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

More importantly, how are YOU??? Did you call that hotline? Listen, Mr. W and I would be more than glad to talk to you and listen...You are MORE than welcome to email us at the addy in my signature...We have free nationwide long distance and would call you anytime...

Also, could you download Yahoo Messenger on your computer? Many of us chat there and would be glad to talk to you that way as well...Here is the link to download it~~~>Yahoo Messenger Just email me your i.d....

Mrs. W

When u r ready, go to the 1st post of the thread you want to change the subject line on and edit on that post.

I have put my cell # on your other thread. Did you get it?

L.

in_pain ~

I know alot of people here are offering their support and sympathy, but I'm gonna jump in anyways...

I know it seems hopeless right now ~ but I'm praying for you, that any minute now something in you is going to click and you're gonna realize that doing NOTHING is not only getting you nowhere, and fast, but more importantly, that doing SOMETHING is not only gonna help you start trying to recover your M., BUT IT'S GOING TO MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER TOO!!! Hard to believe, but you're gonna feel like you have some control again; you HAVE to decide to be proactive in this sitch; your WH is all fogged out; he can't think straight and he NEEDS you to do it for him...yes, that's right....he doesn't even know it right now, but he NEEDS you to do this FOR HIM.

If your marriage survives, and most do, he will one day thank you for being strong and proactive and fighting for him....

I know, because I felt as bad as you, and just a few weeks ago, my FWH thanked me for fighting so hard for us.

Come on, my friend...start doing what everyone here is telling you to: call a good friend, sibling, whatever ask them to come over to be with you and support you while you START EXPOSING, now. Not only is that going to really kick the affair into the "beginning of the end", but you will also find some more support, which you need.

I know you're worried it's gonna bring them closer: it will be temporary. Once exposed, affairs don't last...they crumble; they're no fun once everybody sees and tells them how slimy they're being.

So, do you wanna end this thing? I know you do....start exposing, ok?

Go back and read some of those posts on exposing...and then come here and start posting, asking questions, and getting support. You're spinning your wheels by doing nothing by crying.

IT'S UP TO YOU TO HELP END THIS AFFAIR!! YOU CAN DO IT!!!

And everyone here will help you, ok? Just keep posting on your progress, and the fine people here at MB will guide you.

We're rooting for you!!

~MF

Reading your posts makes me remember how painful the whole thing was. Hang in there - the chances of him coming back to the marriage are excellent.

Mine didn't come back soon enough. Now the affair is over, but I don't want him anymore.

moveforward:

I have been trying to e-mail you all day. Either something is going on with my Dad's computer or hotmail is acting up. It won't let me write a message and send it???? I can read messages, but I can't send them.

I want to send out a general message and thank all of you for responding. It at least lets me know that I am not totally alone. I'm going to post this on my other thread too.

I am getting very close to doing some exposing. Is it okay that I don't do all of the exposing at the same time? I want to call people today, but I also want to put a memo on everyone's desk at work. Everyone at his work knows about the affair, but my husband and the OW don't know that they know. In order to pull that off, I'm going to have to take his office key in the middle of the night and do it. That probably won't happen until Monday night. On the memo, I was just going to put: ______________________is having an affair with _________________________. I was going to put it on everyone's desk, the lunch room, soda machines, bathrooms, etc....

Another thing that concerns me about exposure is that I don't think anyone is going to say anything to either one of them. People consider it none of their business.

hey I can call you - post your number here and I will write it down then you can delete it

Do you really think so believer?


[quote]Reading your posts makes me remember how painful the whole thing was. Hang in there - the chances of him coming back to the marriage are excellent.

hey you need to do it as much at the same time as possible.

Do not do it annonymously - send emails to the boss and everyone else you want to send to.


You have to tell them you want to save your marriage- ask for their help in breaking them up.

Have you exposed to your BIL and SIL?

Have you called her parents?

Get after it.

moveforward:

I have no idea how to delete information!! I will call you on your number that I have in my hotmail account and we'll exchange numbers okay?

ok

Good girl!

Place one on your H and OW's desk as well.

hey moveforward...you made this response to one of my posts, not sure if that was your intent or not...if it was, it didn't come through....did you send it to marriedforever2006@yahoo.com ?

If that wasn't your intent, no worries... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


~MF

It's not enough just to say "___ is having an affair w/____" because the purpose of exposure is to solicit other people's help in breaking up the affair and saving your marriage. You need to be doing the exposure from a motivation of saving your marriage - exposure isn't an end in itself - it is a *means* to an end (saving your marraige). The letter doesn't have to be long, but it does need to state your purpose and ask for their help.

Hey Married,
I meant In_Pain. We have been emailing back and forth. Sorry about that. I just hit reply.

I just got off the phone with In_Pain. She really appreciates everyone's concern.

Fiatflux, you are right. I just told her the same thing.


Thanks everyone.

in_pain ~

I highly recommend that you drop one of these threads and JUST POST ON ONE...it's getting hard for us to keep up on you sitch...

Don't worry, I did the same thing when I first started here too:)

Maybe pick which one you wanna focus on and just recap your sitch there....ok?

~MF

moveforward~

Kind of a bummer that we have the same nickname...can't call ya MF, or it will feel like I'm talking to myself <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

No prob about the confusion ~ I had a feeling that's what it was, but wanted to make sure.

Thanks for updating us on in_pain's progress. We're all praying for her~~

~MF

Do what I do MF and call moveforward...MoFo...*snicker* <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ah, Mrs. W,

you know that is my favorite nickname <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

MoFo *snicker*

Ok, you two...this will bum me out even more, because I always love it when people call me MF...because I ALWAYS equate it to MoFo!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Not that I am the MoFo , mind you...!!! But that this whole suck sitch is one...

But, I guess I do have to concede to it really being more fitting for MOveFOrward.

Darn it!!<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />


~MF

lol, oh please, Feel free to be MoFo. I have considered changing names, but I hate to rob Mrs. W of the joy of calling me that.

In_pain, we don't really mean to thread jack here- sometimes we just need somthing to smile about.

No Worries MarriedForever and MoveForward...Know that I will always consider you both MO FOs!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W<~~~snickering wildly! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

P.S. IP, you are still in my thoughts and prayers...

OK, here's the deal. I called the OW's parents tonight. They were really mad!! They didn't even let me talk long. I'm hoping they were very mad at what I was saying and not at me. I think that was the case. It was first her mom and then she put her dad on the phone. All I got to tell her dad was that she was sleeping with a married man. He asked me what his daughter's name was and I told him her name and where she lived. He said Thank You and hung up. Maybe I should follow it up with a letter since I didn't get to say all that I wanted?

Also, my husband knows about it. He's at our house and I'm staying at my Dad's house (still for Thanksgiving break, I'm going home tomorrow). He called me tonight and asked me what time I called her parents. I didn't want to get into it with him over the phone, so I said we would talk when I got home. He is going to be LIVID with me!!!! I'm scared to go home. What do I say to him. Help me! I really wanted to do this anonymously, but didn't. Help!

ip~

I'm sure some of the big guns are gonna jump in here, but since they haven't yet and I'm sure you're dying for some support, I'm gonna....

Ok, first off: GOOD JOB ON CALLING HER PARENTS!! They needed to be informed. Have you exposed to anyone else? You should, and SOON, before WH and OW get to it before you do, or they're gonna tell their own (messed up) version of the story. If you haven't already done it, do it TOMORROW...even if you have to make phone calls versus notes/emails/whatever. Just do it, and do it early.

As far as what you say to your WH: {{{THIS IS CRUCIAL!!! }}}} CALMLY, tell him that YES, you told her parents. You did it because you are working to SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE, and anyone in their right mind knows that AFFAIRS ARE WRONG. PERIOD. AND that you all are working together to 1.) save your marriage and 2.) to give her a better life (gag, I know ~ she should have a sh*** life after what she's done...BUT! He MAY be concerned about her, and so "should" you (gag, gag, gag, I KNOW)...but, he's still in The Fog and might still think she's pretty cool ( I know, I know ~ she's not, she's slimy and yucky ~ but we're working on saving your marriage here, so ignore all this Fog crap for now, 'k? Oh, AND ~ sorry to all you FWS's out there....really, I am....but right now, to the BS, this is how we feel. Most of you FWS's, if you're here on this message board, are pretty da** awesome...but when you were a FORMER , you may not have been....just had to add that disclaimer).

Most importantly, BE CALM. Just express to him over and over that you are doing everything you can to SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE. DO NOT LOVEBUST!! No screaming, yelling, name calling...you know the drill, right? He may say some really lame stuff: like, that's it, you've ruined it now, we're done....blah blah blah. It's the FOG talking....just agree with him and stick to your guns: you are trying to save your marriage; there's room for TWO in a marriage, not three, etc.

We're praying for you and rooting for you!!!

~MF

GOOD!! I was worried I wasn't gonna sleep well tonight thinking I may no longer be a true MoFo!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

HAHAHAHA!!! Ok, I'm a little sick...that's ok, isn't it?!?!?

~MF

Thank you MF; I really appreciate you responding. I was worried I wasn't going to hear from anyone since it is so late.

I think I'm going to print out your reply. I need to be prepared when I go home. I'll probably need some sort of script. I'm going to be in nervous wreck.

When I tell him I did it to save our marriage, I know what he's going to say. He's going to say, "that's not the way to go about doing it" He's said that to me before when he said that "I messed up". He's probably going to say that "I blew it and he's done". I've heard that too. I have this horrible feeling he's going to walk out and not come home. I'll be devastated and I know I'll feel like I did the wrong thing. I'm really good at beating myself up about things. He'll probably tell me that things like this will only bring them closer, etc...

****"He may say some really lame stuff: like, that's it, you've ruined it now, we're done....blah blah blah"****

This is probably so true.

Thanks again for your reply and I appreciate any other feedback from you or anyone else.

Thanks and wish me luck and prayers. I'm going to need it. I'm dreading tomorrow.

U r playing that what if game and it is draining your energies.

Learn to stop and concentrate your energies on what you do have control over. Learn to reverse babble so he doesn't hurt you as much.

L.

Re ANGER toward OW I had the same problem I had very violent feelings toward her I desperately wanted to obliterate her-----lucky for her we live in different continents.I have a very vivid imagination at the best of times each time she came uninvited into my head I disposed of her like a video game and I am telling you I never used the same means of disposal twice!! It got me through the worst of times.

The thing that hurt most was the secret. By exposing you are taking away the cheap thrill of the romantic secret and bringing reality to the party. Remember its not your secret. You are certainly not obliged to keep it.

Deal with events as they happen you cant anticipate what is about to happen play your card and wait for the reaction .

good luck & keep in touch

Bumping for in_pain...you out there??? How did the confrontation go last night? Are you working on further exposure? Update us when you can.

~MF

MF:

I'm here. The confrontation will actually happen tonight. I am still at my Dad's house and I'll be heading back tonight. I am very scared. I'm not good at confrontation. He always seems to turn it around on me and I get so tongue tied and upset. I'm going to read that link on Reverse Babble. Maybe that will help. Thanks for checking up on me. I appreciate it so much.

Good to hear from you...read up on reverse babble and be prepared for him to say some wacky/mean things....and whatever you do, DON'T stoop to his level. If all else fails, just keep repeating that you're doing everything you can to save your marriage, but that there's room for two, not three...that you KNOW once she's out of the picture, the two of you can work on having a better marriage than ever.

Keep us posted!

~MF

hey IP just sat down for a sec ad thought I would check on you.

Did you talk to your friend about her passing out the memos for you?

Did you email BIL and SIL?

Have you tried talking to his mother again?

hang in there

I really need help from all out there! I just got a disturbing message from a friend (and co-worker of my husbands and OW).

He said the OW came up to him and asked him if anyone else in the office knew about the affair. She said people were avoiding her. He told her that one person in particular did know and that almost everyone in the office knew as well, including partners (they are CPA's - accounting firm). I asked him what her reaction was (this conversation took place through text messaging) and he said "upset".

I told him "Good, you should have told her to back off". Here's where the upsetting part comes in:

He texted me back and said "I think she has thought about it but my husband doesn't want to stop"

What do I do?!?!!?!? I'm devastated!!!!!!!!!!

Please help!!!!

Hey IP,

As many others have said, what you are going through is very “normal” for a BS. Many WS’s cake-eat, or go back and forth like yours is. I don’t know if this helps you or not, but the fact that you are not alone, and can rely on others to help guide you who have been where you are and have learned from it. You are in a great spot, more or less at the beginning of the end of the A and you found MB.

I can share where I was in your shoes about two years ago. I, like you, suspected something was up, I got the usual “I love you and care about you but I am not in love with you” speech, this happened at the beginning of the EA turning PA. The WS says this to justify/rationalize their behavior. I, like you, did a plan A without knowing what one was. I never knew what would trigger him leaving. He threaten to many, many times. He refused to work on the M or even discuss it, just list all my faults. I too made positive changes, he didn’t trust them, thought they were an act. Or he would say, too little too late, you are only doing this bc you don’t want me to leave. I was depressed, frustrated, angry, sad. I owned my part and bought into his side of me being the cause of most of the problems of the M and our children. I too felt so bad about myself, I believed his lies, that I didn’t think I deserved to live. I allowed my opinion about myself to match his, the fogged out WS. I didn’t know of any live as an adult outside our relationship, so I too felt I was nothing w/o him. In fact, I was nothing with him at the time. If it weren’t for a strong faith in God and my sons, I wouldn’t be writing this to you.

You recount how your WS didn’t have a relationship with your son, spent very little time with him. But you did and do, you prioritized your son’s needs as very important to you, which is what a good parent does. You need to stand up tall and be proud of what all you are doing, while the person you love is tearing you apart. You are a strong person, one that is loving towards your son. I plan A’d my WH to extreme, again not knowing the “rules” that it is a temp. state and then you flip to plan B. I was also like you, afraid if I insisted on what I needed, WH would be gone. Here is what that behavior did for me, caused an additional year of the A to continue. An additional year of grief, blow to my self esteem and an additional year of guilt. If I had only stood up for myself sooner, I would at least have that self-respect. We teach others how to treat us and I’m afraid you are teaching your WH it is ok to treat you poorly. It will continue until you draw a line and don’t allow it any longer. Your wh will not stop this on his own w/o you enforcing some ground rules. I am reading a book call “The Road Less Traveled”. In it the author states that when someone is as distraught at the idea of a relationship ending, this relationship may be more of dependency than love. I am trying to figure this out for my own situation.

IP, you can see how you have touched many people here, you are tapping into our past. Please listen to the others, expose, Plan A followed by Plan B. No one can make another person love them and you need to consider why you would settle for a husband that treats you so badly and is not there for your soon, (except more recently after the intervention).

Your WH is a classic cake-eater. You need to force his hand to choose. The fact that the OW has second thoughts means the exposure is working, keep up the heat! I know it is hard to hear that it is your WH that wants to keep the A going, please try not to dwell on that, it is fog.

My thoughts and prayers are with you.

IP...You've Got Mail!

Mrs. W

nabohio:

Thank you so much for that post. It makes me feel better to know that others have been very much in my shoes. Thank you for sharing your situation with me. There are a lot of similarities in our situations.

I just want to make sure I do the right thing and that I am executing Plan A correctly. Moveforward reminded me that Plan A does not mean that I should be a doormat and I think I'm still struggling with that. I did make personal changes before I knew the truth. I started making changes in June, I think. Should I consider the start of Plan A from June or October (when I found out the truth) or November (when I started exposing). I'm guessing I should consider the start of Plan A being November when the exposure started?????? Would that be right????

My Dad and I had a conversation last night and he is furious. He has lost all respect for my husband. He wants me to throw him out. He said I have been making life way too easy for him for way too long. He is right, I guess. My Dad has listened to me cry since June. He is so mad. I asked him to talk to my husband. I think he will, but he said he's going to end up blasting him. It may not be just a talk. I told my Dad that I was getting advice from a discussion forum from people who have gone through this. I didn't tell him the site or anything, but I did tell him a little about Plan A and Plan B. He told me I was just looking for things to continue this. He said after this, I'll find something else to try to make the marriage work. He wants me to get rid of him and move on with my life. He said I've suffered for way too long. He kept telling me that I can't live like this and I shouldn't do things for him (his laundry, etc...). My Dad is just really tired of seeing me suffer. I can understand where he's coming from.

But, I would really like to take the advice of all of you for now. So, if I count the end of November as the beginning of Plan A, I should give it 3 months, right?

The confrontation with my husband will be tonight. We'll see how it goes. I'm sure you will all hear from me tomorrow. I'll probably be a mess.

Thanks for listening. This got much longer than I wanted. I started to ramble on.

IP,

I am afraid I am not a good one for advice on the Plan A/Plan B stuff as I found MB after D-day #2 and after WH (claimed)said he wanted the M and wanted to work on it. I hope other with experience will jump in soon.

I can tell you that it only got better for me after I said here is what I want/need agree or you can leave. I've had to reinforce this a couple of times since and am getting ready to further stand up for myself on some financial issues we have. In other words, this whole recovery thing, whether it is yourself or the M, is a process, a journey. I'm not so sure about not telling people about this site. I am not a proponent of keeping secrets. You could mention it in passing that your are finding some outside support here. Most WS's, especially males, wouldn't spend time reading through the forum to try to figure who you are.

Hang in there, be calm and strong, you are a great person with or w/o WH. Don't let him tell you differently!

bump

I missed your husband's reaction.

Hi In-Pain- I'm posting your post here to save you the trouble! I've been waiting for your update:

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Okay, the confrontation with my husband never happened last night. I got home very late because I was dealing with an unexpected situation back at my Dad's house. My Dad and my Stepmom were fighting (their marriage has been a little rocky) and I was watching my neice (who lives with them) and my son while they fought. Anyway, when I got home, my husband was already sleeping. I wasn't about to wake him up to talk. This morning before work he acted pretty normal. He talked to me, but not a whole lot. He left for work with a "C-ya" and that's about it.

When he comes home from work tonight, I'm sure we'll talk. I'm going to let him bring it up though. I was surprised by how I felt last night though. I was not nearly as nervous as I thought I was going to be. I found a little bit of confidence in myself. I have all of you to thank for that. You are the ones that are building up confidence in me - for now anyway. My feelings seem to change constantly. I hit rock bottom over the weekend and now I'm feeling okay. Not nearly great, but okay. Because of this situation, I have lost all self-respect for myself. My husband drained it out of me. I feel so weak. Today is an okay day though. Maybe it's because I saw my counselor too, I don't know.

Anyway, I'm rambling...I have some questions for all of you and I basically would really like to know if anyone else experienced the same thing, if it's typical behavior, if I should do anything about it, etc.....

My husband is so distant and cold to me. We show no affection to each other at all. We barely even touch each other. I feel like that is causing us to drift further and further apart. Should I be trying to give him hugs and kisses? I realize the timing is pretty bad right now because I'm exposing and he's angry, so maybe this isn't a good time to ask that question. The reason why I haven't been hugging and kissing him is because he is so cold and I'm afraid to. I'm afraid of rejection, I guess. I told him before that I wanted to do all of those things, but I told him I was afraid. I guess he understood. He just nodded.

His actions just seem like he's out of the marriage already. Has anyone else experienced this? Is it normal? He left Thanksgiving vacation early (Saturday @ 2:00) to go "hang out" with the OW. I think I posted that on this thread. If not, I did on my other one. Sorry! What I pain. He just won't stop being "friends" with her and I'm hoping my exposure is working.

I think he's unable to make a decision on what he wants because he still has 2 women in his life, kind of. He sees my personal changes as a good thing, but they're not making him want to be with me because he still has her in his life.

I can't remember if I posted this already or not, but right now we are living like friends or room mates. He said it's not too hard for him to live like this because he said we've lived like this before. He's probably right. We had some issues with sex, etc..in the past. He said things are actually better now because of the personal changes I have made. Anyway, he said that that is another thing that worries him though. He said he was hoping that would make a difference for him, but it didn't. I think it didn't is because he is still having contact with her.

Also, because we are not being physical, he has no idea how I would change my ways in fulfilling those needs. He really has no idea what it would be like to live with my with all of my changes because he's not allowing me to really be a wife to him. I don't think that can really happen until he gets that OW out of the picture.

By the way, my counselor loved the saying "your marriage can survive anger, but it can't survive an affair" Sorry to whoever I stole that from, but I used it today. I just told her that I was trying exposure and I was so worried about him being mad. She loved that saying. She said it was going to be the saying of the day! It's so true though.

Everyone on this site got me through the weekend, I just want you to all know that. If it weren't for all of you, I reall don't know what I would have done.

I look forward to getting some advice, suggestions, similar stories, etc...

THANK YOU TO ALL!

Thanks Mrs. Rob.

In-pain - Good job!!! Now follow up the exposure to her parents with a letter, stating that you want to save your marriage, and your family, and any help from them would be appreciated.

Your husband is acting like they all do - very cold and uncaring. That is just the way they are, and he will continue until there is no contact with the OW. Right now he sees her as perfect, because she is just a FANTASY.

Hang in there. Stay in Plan A. This stuff takes time. When you are going crazy, come here and rant. We understand.

MrsRob:

Thank you for straightening this out for me. Urgh! I'll figure these threads out one of these days!! I had a miscarriage in Nov 2002 and I was a member of a forum like this, but it was just arranged differently and I'm not used to this!! I'll get it sooner or later.

Thank you!

Thank you for responding believer.

It comforts me to know they all behave like this. It just feels like he's already out of the marriage and I'm spinning my wheels. Should I show affection (or try)? I'm not sure how to react to this at all.

Showing affection will probably be a waste. But you can try to be upbeat and cheerful (I know, very hard), and get your own life going good.

The biggest problem is that they almost all come back to the marriage, but you may be so hurt, you don't want him anymore.

Another problem is that the OW may try to hold him by getting pregnant. That happens a lot too.

Yes, this whole situation has been very hard. I am trying to focus more on myself and my son. He has just been such a big part of my life for so long. Some days are better than others. Today, I seemed more mad and stronger. Other days I feel completely weak and defeated. Today, I was focusing more on how much he has hurt me over the past few months and how much he continues to hurt me. He has been really cruel to me. I've been trying to focus less on all the good memories we have had and the old husband I used to have. This new person is not very nice. My old husband was a caring, sensitive man. I don't know what happened to him. I do miss him a lot though.

The OW just sickens me. She's a pathetic excuse for a human being.

Like I said before, I just don't know how to react to this no affection thing. We used to always at least give each other a hug and a kiss before leaving the house, with an I love you. I miss hearing him say I love you. I just feel like no affection is making us drift further apart. I have to keep exposing, I guess. That OW has to get out of the picture so I can try and get this marriage back on track. It just feels so hopeless.

It is like they are abducted by aliens. They completely change, and are no longer the person you once knew. This is NORMAL.

Don't blame yourself for his cheating - that is squarely on him. However, you can make changes in YOU. That will often change the other person.

Look back at any complaints he had BEFORE the affair, and try to work on eliminating those. I know sex was a big one, but you probably can't work on that now. I would advise AGAINST it, because he could have caught a disease from the OW.

What I did was clean the house spotless, cook good meals, rearranged the house, joined a women's support group, fixed up the yard, organized, detailed the car, etc. It kept me busy, and made me feel better about things. My self-esteem was in the TOILET.

IP,

The way your WH is acting is very normal, at least in my experience. My WH didn't want to have SF, when he did (if he could, if you know what I mean), it was over very quickly w/o consideration for my needs. This didn't change until I told him he either ends the A with NC e-mail (that was his idea to prove he was ending it, pre-MB), and works on the M. It was at that pt that he started to push to be affectionate and SF, although it was hard at first bc I knew he still didn't want to, was doing it on the advice of some of the books on recovery from A's. They, I can't remember which one, says to if you wait to have SF and to be affectionate with each other until you have the right feelings, it will be too late. I think it is in After the Affair, you may way to read this book it is good.

Another site that may help you is www.dearpeggy.com, as well as www.break-free-from-the-affair.com, both are helpful.

I understand about the ILY and kisses/hugs. It is a long road to recovery, so try to be patient. It is hard, but try to almost put that part on hold and concentrate on breaking up the affair. One step at a time. I try to look at how I want my M to look like as a goal and I also try to put the other part in perspective, if we are D'd, then there wouldn't be any affection/SF/ILY's anyway.

I am very glad you didn't have a long talk when you got home late, I'm sure it will go better today/tonight.

Good luck and you may want to review the reverse babble language, bc your WH most certainly will sound like a WH tonight and not your husband.

Well, he didn't bring it up last night either. I know he knows that I called the OW's parents. I know he's going to talk to me about it. I can't believe he didn't bring it up last night. I thought for sure he would. He asked me if I wanted to watch Ruduolph with our son, so we did that and then we watched a couple of shows that we had recorded after our son went to sleep.

I almost wish we would just talk about it already because the anticipation is horrible. I know it's not going to be pleasant.

I also hope something else isn't brewing. I hope nothing else is going on to make him wait. I don't know. I'm always on guard, I guess. I hope I'm not in for some more bad news or something.

I got this e-mail from a friend of mine, who is also a co-worker of theirs:

****I can assure you that neither of them is comfortable or happy to be in the office. They have both been “shunned” by almost everybody because of what they are doing. I have tried to be a good friend and be there for them when they need to talk, but I’m not sure they feel comfortable talking to me. I’m not sure how things will go but hopefully this pressure will help them wake up and realize what they have done and are doing is wrong.****

I guess that's good news.

One other thing about his work though. Let me know what you think about this. This morning I was IMing with a friend from Alabama. My husband came into the room and my friend told me that her husband had to take a new job and he had to accept a 55% paycut. I told my husband this and he said, "that might be me". I said, "what are you talking about" and he said "I can't work there anymore. Everyone hates me". I didn't say anything, but I wanted to say, well maybe if you start working on your marriage and keeping your family together and staying away from the OW, people wouldn't hate you. But, I didn't. So, he knows that everyone in the office knows and he's not happy about it. I guess it's hard for him to be there. And it should be! How does he expect people to react? I wanted to say to him - everyone knows affairs are wrong - I guess people aren't happy about it.

If he did get another job, that would be good because then he would no longer work with the OW. I would be happy with that, even if he did have to take a paycut.

I have something else I need your opinion on. Sometimes I wonder if he is still with the OW because he feels quilty. He's made the comment to me that "he brought her into this". He has also said that "everyone is on your side, she (OW) doesn't have anyone and I refuse to abandon her". I guess it's just me being hopeful to say that's why he still "hangs out" with her. But, what do I do about that way of thinking?

One more thing and then I'll quit. I posted here a little bit ago with a question about when my Plan A began. It's on this thread. Did my Plan A begin when I started exposure? Could you look back on this thread for that post and let me know what you think? Technically, I started making personal changes back in June before I knew abou the affair or this site. Let me know.

Sorry so long. I would love some feedback.

Hey there, just checking on you.


As far as when your plan A started, it really doesn't have to be a set date. Yes, you were making personal changes but you were not doing anything to break up the affair- that started this week.

For right now just focus on doing a great plan A - all parts. When you start feeling like you might be losing your love for him, then we can talk about Plan B.

hang in there, ok?

Thanks moveforward:

I'm hanging in there, I guess. I got through my birthday. He still didn't bring anything up about me calling her parents. Who knows when he'll spring that on me.

He did get me a card from my son today and also one from him. The one from him disappointed me. It wasn't a "For My Wife" card. It was very generic. All he wrote in the inside was "Happy 31st" and his name. It seemed pretty impersonal. But I guess I can't expect too much. I just wonder if it would have been better to just not get a card at all.

I still have a lot of anger towards the OW. I just want to reach out to her and tell her what I think of her.

He has a Christmas party for work on Friday. Other years, he has always gone out with people after the actual party and made a night of it. Before our son was born, I would join him as well. Tonight he said that he was probably going to go back home and hang out with his brother after the Christmas party. He said he probably won't stay at the party for very long because "no one wants to be around him". So, he's definitely feeling pressure from people at work. These are people he enjoyed being around and now it's really getting to him. He hates that they know what he has done.

I don't know how the OW feels. She probably doesn't care. She's got a lot of nerve.

Plan A is about you making changes for you. Whether the WS or XWS recognizes those changes is not the main factor. You moving forward with your self improvements is what is important. Your H will have a lot of catching up t/d as you move forward.

As for his 'need' to protect the OW. That's WS babble. You better start learning how t/d plan B because him trying to protect the OW will NOT help recovery at all.

L.

Why arent't you instilling great seeds of hope on to his comments about people at work not liking him or not wanting to be around him...

why aren't you saying things like...

I don't think that people don't like you maybe they are just uncomfortable with things that have been done...

say..
ofcourse people want to be around you.....why wouldn't they...

AND

why didn't you say I would love to go to the party with your

OR

what about you and I going out instead of the party..we could get something to eat....
go look at some x-mas lights...etc...

why is it your husband suggesting you do things together..ie watch TV etc...

plan A is about engaging him
easing his burdon
showing glimpses of hope that you know he can change...
and things can get better.....

where and what is your plan A exactly....

it should be subtle in your face I am here you are here...lets get together...

ARK

as far as dealing with anger, why don't you try writing her a letter and no mailing it. It really helped me to do that - several times.

Read Ark's post above on plan A.

Engage him constantly- avoiding him is not plan a.

Thank you everyone:

I guess that's where I'm still a little confused or scared. I'm not sure what to do or how to act. He's so distant and cold that I'm almost afraid to approach him about things.

The reason I didn't suggest going to the Christmas Party is because it's just for employees. They do it on a Friday (which is a normal work day) and they have a luncheon, etc...In the past, a lot of people (mostly my husband and his friends) would continue the party and go out afterwards and make a night of it. Before I had our son, I would join up with them at an area bar and go out at night with them. Because of everything that was going on, I didn't know what he planned on doing. I guess I should have asked. My fault...Another reason I didn't talk about the Christmas party is because of the OW. I was sure she was going and I didn't want to hear, "No, you can't join up with us because ___________is going to be there." I've heard that before.

I guess that has been my question or concern. I don't know how to act or what to do. I guess I need to stop being afraid of rejection and just ask. It's weird, I can't believe I'm afraid to ask my own husband to do things with me. That sounds so ridiculous, but it's true. Did anyone else deal with this or am I strange or something?

When I first knew my marriage was in trouble (around June), I would make time for us as much as possible. I would have someone watch our son for a couple of hours at least one week night a week (even if it was just 2 hours) and I would have my mother in law watch him one weekend a month so we would have a weekend together. I think that kind of tapered off around September.

So, you think I should start doing things like that again and not worry about him rejecting me?

I need help getting past these feelings. I guess I've lost all confidence in myself.

Yes you should. And you need some IC or something to help you get past these feelings and get back some confidence in yourself. Nothing is more unattractive than an emotional wreck with no self-esteem. Confidence is sexy. Think to yourself I am quite a catch, and he will want to come back to me. If he doesn't, that's his loss, not yours. If that is the case you will find someone better. Believe in yourself in_pain. You are the strong one in this relationship, not him. You are the one fighting for your family. I have a ****** of a lot of respect for what you are doing because I am doing the same thing as well, and it is HARD! It takes a strong person to put ourselves through what we have to go through. It would be a ****** of a lot easier to just give up and move on. Be we are STRONGER than that. That is confidence and that is sexy. I'll keep praying for you. Keep us posted on your story.

- Jim

No more cringing or worrying. You have taken a strong stand to protect your family and should be looking at yourself like a heroine - like Wonder Woman!

Let HIM sweat now. Let HIM enjoy the looks and the whispers at work. Do not protect him from this and do not think of apologizing for them. These are all natural consequences of his extremely poorly chosen actions. Let those things cause their discomfort and do their work, which was exactly the intent. Let them help you. And most of all, let HIM worry about them.
Mulan

Thank you for responding Jim and Mulan. I really need help getting past all of this. I almost feel like I'm living with a stranger. I don't know how to act or what to do. I never had to deal with wondering where I stand with him before. I've been with him for 16 years and this is uncharted territory.

He made another comment this morning about not working where he is now and finding another job somewhere else. The fact that everyone in the office knows is really bothering him.

My exposure didn't go as I've planned either. The memo that I wanted everyone to see at work never went out. I guess my friend wasn't comfortable doing that. So, I'll have to do it myself. I have to do it some night when he is sleeping. I'll have to take his keys to the office and go and distribute it myself. I'll be so scared! But, I want it to go out. My exposure didn't happen all at the same time like it's recommended. I hope that's okay.

I took your advice and I just e-mailed and asked him if he wanted to go to a movie on Saturday night or take our son to the mall to get his picture taken with Santa and do some Christmas shopping. We'll see how that goes. I'm nervous, which is so silly.

It's such a strange feeling to not know what actions to take.

LISTEN TO ARK!!!

Do EXACTLY as she says for PLAN A SUCCESS!!!

Have you seen the post below? It is one of my ark^^ favorites.

And here's another great ark^^ post for you to digest:

i_p~

Ark is giving you some great advice here....listen to it. My sitch was a little different in that while my H was in the A., I had NO idea ~ I mean NONE. I didn't know about this website or Plan A either, but that's what I was doing, and I didn't even know it. In some ways it was easier not knowing what the he** was going on, and in other ways it sucked big time ~ he was a TOTAL Fogged out alien to the worst degree and I was freaking out ~ couldn't understand why he was acting like such a freak. But I Plan A'd him anyways...planned a lot of fun stuff together, just tried to keep us busy, was extra nice, didn't ask him to help me with ANYTHING (and that's hard when you have 4 kids!!!), just tried to be happy and fun to be with (now, BECAUSE I didn't know what was going on, I did LB a lot ~ got mad at him and told him to "snap out of it", bugged him about what the he** is wrong with you, that kind of stuff. Didn't help, but since I didn't know about the A., I was kind of out of my mind)....

I know it's harde ~ just start slowly. Good idea asking him to do something with you this weekend...keep that up. Here is a post that I made to karen1 about some more practical stuff regarding Plan A. Hope it helps, it worked for me...



Keep it up, i_p, I know it's hard...keep coming back here for encouragement, we'll help you through...'k?

~MF

This caught my eye:



Does he mean your home and not his brothers place? (Doesn't have a chance of meeting up with OW after the party with using "hanging out at brothers" for an excuse)

ummmm
plan A is ALL ABOUT doing and saying with the total EXPECTATION of rejection...

you remove yourself from the expectation of any response..

expecting response is the act of giving and doing with strings attached...

Plan A is about giving and doing with NO strings attached....

your husband is expressing twice now his fear and concern and sadness about what others think...

People at work or judge or ostracize the person ie (sinner) ie EACH OF US IS ONE for whom the bell tolls etc etc etc..

and offer him no hope...for change or reconcilliation he will do what each of would choose to do...

avoid
self reject
self loath
become overwhelmed and believe that the damage wrought it unfixable....

then why not just withdrawal....

how are you going to help NOT enable your husband to come back to being an honest person who can once again lay their head down on a pillow and truly rest in the Grace of God...

what's your plan stan?

ARK

Okay, I wanted my post this morning to be all about Plan A, but things have changed. I do want to thank Mimi for providing me those posts from Ark (Ark thank you for indirectly helping on that). I also want to thank MarriedForever for the post and all the help you have given me along the way so far. Ragamuffin: I'm sorry for the confusion. When I said back home, I meant back to our home town. Our home town (and his brother's house) is about 1 hour and 10 minutes away from our home. Ark thank you for your reply as well. I appreciate your help in this. I will post more about Plan A and some more questions I have at a later time, hopefully. I need help on what happened this morning!

Well, let me start with last night first. Last night was a REALLY hard night for me. I went to the grocery store with my son and decided to drive by his office. His car was gone, but the OW's was still in the parking lot. I drove home; he wasn't home. So, I went back and sat at a nearby parking lot. I feared they were together. Sure enough, his car pulled up alongside hers and she got out. Do you have any idea how hard it was to see them together and see her skanky @ss getting out of my husband's car? I'm sure some of you do. I was crushed, angry and heartbroken. I sat there for a little bit to compose myself and then I headed home. When I got home, my husband acted completely normal. I couldn't even look him in the face. I wanted to spit on him and then beat him up. I wanted to go and do much worse to her. How in the world do you execute Plan A when something like that happens or you feel that way???? I'm sure I did some Love Busting. I kind of avoided him all night. I stayed out in the kitchen and cleaned while he watched football. As the night went on, it was a little easier to face him, but I was still so hurt and angry. We did watch TV together after my son fell asleep and then he went to bed. Because of what I witnessed, I made the decision to go into his office and pass out the memos.

Around 4:00 this morning, I took his office keys and handed out a ton of memos. I laid them on everyone's chair and hung them throughout the office. When I stopped by the OW's desk, she had some pictures up on her cubicle wall. A lot of them were of him and her and some other people, but she also had one up of just him and her!!!!!! Can you believe the nerve. I ripped down all of her pictures!!!!

This morning my H was REALLY mad. The OW texted him first thing this morning and told him about her pictures being ripped down and I'm sure about the memos. I was laying on the couch with my son when he approached me. My son was still sleeping. He had his cell phone in his hand and was texting.

He said, "so, did you talk to OW's parents?"
I said, "yes"
He said, "why would you do that?"
I said, "because I'm doing everything in my power to save our marriage"
He said, "well, I told you before when people (some friends) first found out that it was only bringing me and the OW closer, so how do you think this would help?"
I said, "I just did what I thought was right to help our marriage"
I don't remember what he said exactly in response to that. I don't know that he said anything.
He said that his boss had a talk with him a couple of days ago and he said that he could get fired for this. Then, he said, "you better start looking for a F*$%&$ing job"
So I guess his boss did do something about it. The exposure e-mail to him did do something.
He also said, "who do you have working for you?" then, he told me about the pictures at her desk being ripped down. He didn't mention the memo.
I said, "why did she have pictures at her desk of the two of you"
He said, "she had pictures of them with other people and just random pictures at her desk"
I didn't say anything the rest of the time.
He said he was going to blow up today there and he was probably going to get fired for what he had to say, so he said again for me to start looking for a F^%^^%%ing job.
He also said something about looking for an apartment (so he is planning on moving out now) or going to live with his mom or something.
Before he left, he said "you disgust me"

Oh, during his rant, he also asked me about talking to his mom and his aunt. I told him that I did. He was not at all happy.

What if he's not like a typical WS? What if he is different? What if my actions did turn him away for good? I feel like I made a HUGE mistake. I knew I was going to feel this way. I certainly don't look better than the OW now!!!!!! She looks better to him than ever now! WHAT AM I GOING TO DO!

He may not have even gone to the Christmas party today. He wasn't really looking forward to going anyway because he said that no one wanted to be around him. What if he's spending the day with her? My actions could have thrown him right in her arms!!!!!!!!!!

I am devastated. What am I going to do if I lost him!!!!!! I need help!

He is following the WS script to a T.

You have to calm down- you have done nothing wrong.

Look at this way: Would you rather him continue to live with you and keep screwing her - live with you and keep having an adulturous relationship?

Or would you rather do EVERYTHING you can do to break them up and win him back?

Now, you have done an awesome job on exposure.

Let's now focus some more on the other part of plan a- winning him back.

Re-read all of the plan a posts on this thread. Read the thread on this page that Ark started about plan a.

hang in there- you have done an awesoms job on exposure. You have done nothing wrong- any consequence of the exposure is directly related to HIS poor choices.

calm down as much as possible.

your WH is a jerk and he is projecting his feelings on to you. Exposure is necessary and it is predictable that it will infuriate the WS. There are some things you did that could have been handled differently... but for now, there is nothing you can do about them. Do not allow your WH to make you feel bad for standing up for your M.... for your family. He is the one acting like a complete piece of [email]cr@p[/email] right now... not you.
He is trying to threaten you into not exposing... do not fall for his threats. If he wants to leave... then let him go. He knows where you will be... at home with your family. His lies and evil ways will catch up to him. Perhaps since you are concerned with the pain surrounding Plan A... it will be time for you to consider going to Plan B with him.
And you asked what are you going to do if you lost him.... you will survive and be happy... that's what you will do. But that is putting the cart before the horse. Deep breath.... calm thoughts.... call a friend....take a walk....try and relax....pray.
Be well.

First - calm down. Your actions have done exactly what they were intended to do - bust up the affair and throw a monkey wrench into their sick fantasy.

You know how you can be sure you did all that? BECAUSE HE'S FURIOUS.

No, he's NOT any different from any other WS. Didn't we all warn you that he would explode and threaten you and tell you it's over once you exposed him? He is talking right out of the script.

Now, DON'T you let him intimidate you and make YOU feel guilty. That's exactly what he wants. If you start simpering and cowering and apologizing, you are only affirming that their affair is right and good and none of your business and you should not have interfered with their happiness.

Is that what you want?

I didn't think so!

Look - you've got major backbone to do what you did. Good on you for ripping down those pictures. I hope you spit on them and ripped them to bits and left them on her desk. That does not sound to me like a woman who would cower and back down just because her husband doesn't like being exposed for the lying cheating sod that he is.

OF COURSE he's going to explode and threaten you. Virtually all of them do. It is a ploy to try to make YOU feel guilty so HE doesn't have to. Don't you dare let him do this to you!

Let him leave. Let him go to her. Let him threaten to file for divorce. HE'S JUST TRYING TO MAKE YOU BACK DOWN AND FEEL BAD SO HE CAN FEEL BETTER ABOUT HIMSELF. DON'T DO THIS!

No matter what he says, just look him right in the eye and say, "I'm sorry you feel that way." And keep posting here for more support.

You did the right thing. AND IT WORKED!!! If it hadn't, he would have just laughed it off. But you hit them both right where it hurt the most.

BULL'S-EYE!
Mulan

Thanks moveforward and mkeverydaycnt.

I hope you are right that this is normal behavior. I'm so scared that he's different than others. He NEVER liked me talking to friends or family about any problems that we had. He's not like that at all. If I do something horrible, he never tells anyone. He always keeps things to himself; he doesn't talk to anyone about anything. So, he has never understood why I need to talk to people when I have issues (about anything). I hope he can get past the anger because right now he's probably with her. I "disgust" him and she makes him happy. THAT MAKES ME SO SCARED, SAD, AND SICK!!

I did think of something else I wanted to include on my post originally. I know someone told me before that I can't educate him about affairs, so don't even try. I feel like I need to reach out to him today, either through e-mail or a text message. I feel like I need to tell him why I did what I did.

When or if he comes home tomorrow, what do I say to him? Should I try and talk to him? How do I act? I am literally freaking out right now! I really need help!!!

Before he left this morning, he did lean over and give our son a kiss and said "I'll see you tomorrow buddy" He sounded like he was starting to cry when he said it. His voice sounded shaky.

How do I get him to not be disgusted by me! Funny, shouldn't I be the one disgusted by him!!!!!!!!! How do I get him to not be so angry anymore? How do you get them to calm down after that and want to even be in the same room with you?

HELP!

Thank you Mulan:

I just hope he comes back to me. I should have ripped up the pictures and put them on her desk. I just put them in my coat pocket. I wanted to get out of there as fast as possible. I can always rip them up and put them on her desk at a later time just as a reminder. She is such a skank. I hate her.

I just don't know how to proceed from here. I don't know how to handle this.

Yes, you should. So why are you worrying about what he thinks? All crooks think the cops are disgusting.


You don't. You let that be HIS problem.


Again - you don't. HE should be wondering why YOU would want to be in the same room with HIM. And you should be acting accordingly, whether you actually feel that way or not.

He is angry because he is finally suffering from some consequences of the affair. Up until now, he was quite happy to let YOU suffer all the consequences and he is furious because it's suddenly been dumped back on him.

If you want your exposure to have its full effect, then DON'T YOU DARE protect him from suffering its effects. Not one bit. The pain and discomfort and humilation he's feeling right now are exactly what he needs.

If he insists on throwing it back at you, then you just pack up the kids and go somewhere else for a while.

The point of all this is to Let Him Suffer. At this point, pain and consequences are the only things that will get through to him. Just think of it as really tough medicine, like chemotherapy. Don't you dare interfere with the medicine. Let it work as long as necessary.
Mulan

don't try and educate him right now. that will come later.

I would suggest that you make a call to the Harley's today for some guidance... in the meantime....

find some things to help you calm down...exercise, walk... a bath...

as far as how you should act... read up on Plan A. But DO NOT be a doormat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, it is his behavior that is disgusting... not yours... you are trying to be the hero for your family. YOU are eating the [email]cr@p[/email] sandwich he has fed you a=nd you are doing it for your M and for your family. YOU should be proud of yourself.

Stop taking his reactions on yourself. He owns them... just like he owns his cheating. It is not up to you to fix that for him.

YES!!!
Mulan

Any attempt to educate him will merely feed his rationalizations and justifications.

You: "I exposed to save our marriage and end the affair...here's how it works....."

Him: "So you are playing games. It's flat out manipulation and trying to control me. Our lives are NOT other peoples business"


Don't bother. Let exposure work. Keep them guessing. They may come together temporarily but it's no longer secretly bonding in bliss...it's clutching in chaos. May the love busters commence.

You did REAL good. Get some sleep. No matter what...YOU WILL MAKE IT.

Mr. Wondering

I_P,

""What if he's not like a typical WS? What if he is different?""

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

As my govenor would say "Dahts ah gute won".

COME ON In_Pain, SNAP OUT OF IT!! Stop your cringing and worrying. You did NOTHING wrong. Your WH is sooo totally in the wrong and YOU disgust HIM!??! This would be too funny, if it wasn't so sad.

We here in th halls of MB are very proud of you, how you kept your cool as he berated you.

Stay very strong! You are AWESOME <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

krk

In Pain,

I've said this before, and I'll say it again. My WW SWORE that my exposure killed any chance of us every getting back together again. She was FURIOUS! She yelled at me for hours! She still compains to me every time she sees me posting on MB. But you know what? FIVE DAYS LATER, she agreed to NC. He is pissed as ****** at you FOR RUINING HIS AFFAIR! It will never be the same now. I had the same fears as you in the days immediately following exposure. Don't get sucked into an argument with him. Just be calm and strong. If you say anything, just say, "I did what I had to do because I want to save our marriage and our family," and drop it. Just sit back and watch exposure do its magic. Keep us posted.

- Jim

Thank you to all who replied. I REALLY need all of you today. I am so crushed and so scared. I hear what you are all telling me, but I can't help but feel that I ruined everything.

The day has gotten worse. I got a very rude e-mail from my Mother-In-Law today. I thought I had a very good relationship with her. I thought my relationship with her was better than most mother-in-laws and daughter-in-laws. I copied and pasted it below:

_____________(in_pain) I want you to know first off, that ____________ (my son) is always welcomed in my home. He is the love of my life, and I still expect to see him and watch him on weekends. That will be up to you or, and I repeat OR _________________(H).
__________________(in_pain), you didn't quite lie to me, but you didn't disclose everything to me.As I understand, ___________________(H) gave you plenty of time and chances in the last two years, way before his "affair" started. I personally think the affair is the least of your worries.
Yes, _____________(H) is the son me and dad raised. We didn't raise him to be a doormat.I just want him to be happy.
I cannot help either one of you in this marriage. I don't think your mom or dad or all the other people you told. They don't know both sides of the true story.And who in their right mind would want to interfere in something so private.
______________________(in_pain), I personally don't get involved in other peoples lives. I learned that in al-anon.
My children are grown adults now. I can't teach or interfere in their lives anymore, but I can tell you this. When they hurt, I hurt.That never goes away. All I can do is hope they make the right decisions.That's called unconditional love.

I can't believe how rude she was. I can't believe she put the word affair in quotes. What the #$%$# is that supposed to mean?

I did write back to her:

I don't quite understand what you mean when you say, "as I understand, ______________(H) gave you plenty of time and chances in the last two years". In the last two years, I didn't know that my marriage was in trouble. Just last Christmas, he wanted to start trying for another baby in the summer. If someone said that to you, would you think your marriage was in trouble? That's just one example. He talked about us building a house, going on vacations, etc...He never gave me a clue in the last two years that our relationship could be in trouble. You obviously know more than I do. I would really like to know what you mean by that.

I also don't understand why you chose to put the word affair in quotes. Do you think it's not an affair? He admittedly has been sleeping with _________(OW) since June. I think that qualifies as an affair. If you think that's the LEAST of my worries, then, again, I would like you to explain that. An ongoing affair is a pretty big deal and I don't understand why you would say it was the least of my worries.

I'm sorry you feel that I treated ___________(H) like a doormat. Again, I would like you to elaborate. If you are going to point fingers and make accusations, I hope you have something to back that up. I never treated _____________(H) like a doormat.

________________(H) is not the person you raised. You hardly see him to know how much he has changed. Again, he admitted he changed. He admitted that he hasn't been the same person; he admitted that long ago - before the affair. That is what I meant by that. All of our friends have told me (even before this all came out) that they miss the old __________________(H). No one misses the old ______________(H) more than me.

You can support people without interfering in their lives. I love _______________(H) and I have no question about that. I think it's pretty sad that you could so easily turn your back on someone.

I would really like you to explain yourself further.

I haven't heard back from her yet.

I'm devastated. This is the last thing that I needed. Did anyone else experience their WS's family "ganging" up on them? Is is just me or she acting like I'm the bad person here?

in_pain you got to stop focusing on him and her and the affair you are going to drive yourself nuts. Part of this process is to make you stronger. You need to remember your not doing this for him, your doing this for you. Because you respect yourself because you have value. You don't want him back you want a marrigage that is stronger with both of you being stronger. When he throws out that babble which he sounds so much like others that it isn't funny that we call it a script because it is... You need to tell him you except the consequences of your actions and he needs to accept his. If that him gettin fired then its hist fault not yours.... you need to become strong from this. You don't want him back you want some better back.. I am not going to say it doesn't hurt, it does, but it part of the process

please stay calm and brush what he says to you off.

This is TYPICAL WS's parent bullcrap. This has happened to most if not all BS's. Don't sweat it. It is likely that you will not get any support (at least not any you know about) from WS's family. Part of the reason your WH is like he is is due to parent's coddling ("I just want him to be happy", my azz...), enabling, co-dependent treatment by parents. Why expect anything different now.

They are acting just like my EX WW's parents acted (these same people, particularly her dad said I was more of a son to him than his own son until WW had her affair and I was forced to take her to court for custody). After this I was the enemy (not her, but me). On the other hand my parents would have kicked me to the curb and allowed my EX WW to come into the family home, helped with babysitting, financially and more if it had been me having an affair. This is just how different people are.

Nothing earth shattering here

Don't argue with his family. Just let them know you are doing what you are doing because you love your husband and are trying to keep your family together. Any help or support from them is welcomed. A lot of parents act in this way. That is why the WS feels entitled to their affair. They never got a strong moral upbringing. Don't worry about it. It obviously won't be your WH's parents that are putting the pressure on him to end the affair. I think your best bet is your WH's boss and the OW's family (if they are better parents then you WH's). Are you on AD's. They really helped me in this situation. Lexapro is what I would recommend. Just calm down, sit back, and watch the affair implode on itself. You did your job, now let the exposure do its job. You'll be alright. Give it a week to see the affair starting to crumble.

- Jim

In laws can be real a-holes in these situations. Blood is thicker than water and shame on them for not stepping up and doing the right thing.
As far as her threats about your son... what the f was that all about. That kid will see them when you want them to... not when she feels she should see her grand child. Was she responding to something you said about her not seeing the child. I can tell you that my son no longer sees his moms parents because of their response to what went on. What is she talking about there.... " I still expect to see him and watch him on weekends. That will be up to you or, and I repeat OR _________________(H)."

Also,

Don't count them out...yet.

SOME inlaws have to process things too...they come around to full and/or meaningful support in time.

SOME inlaws stand by their kids publicly (to you) but still behind the scenes apply pressure...privately.

You can't control them...just hope and pray decency shows up at some point in time.

Mr. Wondering

(((((i_p))))....

So sorry sorry you are hurting and scared right now...it's a terrible feeling.

BUT!!! Like everyone else here has said, you did a GREAT job at exposing ~ they are both miserable at work now that they know EVERYONE knows. Good job. Part of the "fun" of affairs is the secrecy, the little "secrets" between them, etc...now those are gone. Affairs thrive in darkness, and bust apart when exposed to the light of day (my H's affair ended the DAY I found out ~ the minute it was "exposed" ~ he suddenly saw how ugly and disgusting and WRONG it was. Just takes some longer to see that than others).

I know you are really worried about how to act when/if you see him tomorrow. I'm gonna give you some practical advice, ok?

ACT LIKE YOU ARE JUST FINE ~ STRONG AND TALL AND PROUD. YOU are working on saving your marriage ~ DO NOT BE A DOORMAT!!! Absolutely no begging, crying or groveling ~ NONE. That would be a huge LBer; you want him to RESPECT you ~ to see a quiet resolve to do the right thing. Clean your house, fix yourself up, decorate for Christmas, do some baking...anything to just show him that your not just sitting around crying and fretting and waiting for him to grace you with his presence). Show him that you are going on with your life, whether he is there or not ~ see, what you wanna show him is that YOU ARE GOING TO BE OK WITH OR WITHOUT HIM. This is very appealing to WSs...in the back of his mind, he is going to start thinking "Oh, cr**. What have I done? My relationship with OW is on it's way out, and now my wife may be too...". Even if the A relationship isn't over YET, when he sees you moving on, or "announcing" through your actions that you're gonna be fine either way, he's going to feel "stuck" with OW ~ someone who he probably doesn't REALLY want to be stuck with. (Most people choose affair partners who they never would have chosen in the "real" world ~ the fantasy is what attracts them to OP ~ and now they're nice little fantasy has been shot to he**. He's going to start seeing her for who she really is real quickly here).

Try to be at least kind of cheerful when you see him...if he says anything, like everyone has said, just keep repeating "H, I am doing everything I can to save this marriage. And in a marriage, there is room for 2, not 3. I'm fighting for our family, and I will continue to do so." If he says well, too bad, you've ruined everything, like someone else said, just repeat "I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm just trying to keep our family together."

It might be hard....just stay strong. Come back here for guidance. NO LBing, NO groveling, NO begging. Besides Harley's books, I also highly suggest you read "Love Must Be Tough", by James Dobson. It will give you a ton of hope, and explain WHY begging, crying and groveling will RUIN your chances of repairing this.

Keep us posted!

~MF

OW: (crying) Oh my god -- i can't believe what your WIFE did...she got someone to destroy my office and leave flyers all over the office! What a ()@#*%&)(*. How can you live with her? She is a )@#($*)@#(*%.

WH: hey, we don't know for sure who did it. She's upset you can't really blame her.

OW: oh yeah? what about her calling my parents? Can't you stop her? )@#(*$)#($* Don't you have any control?

WH: no, how can I control her?

OW: well you better! What if one of us gets fired for this? OMG! If I lose my job, what am I gonna do?

WH: (getting stressed) don't worry. that won't happen. (secretly worried about losing job but not being honest with OW.)

OW: ()#*$)#(*$ MAKE HER STOP!

WH: what am I supposed to do?

OW: well if one of us is getting fired, it better not be me.

WH: Oh, so it would be better for me to lose my job? I have a family to support.

OW: OH -- so your family is more important? What about me? I thought I was the most important to you?

WH: thats not what I meant....

And the fighting continues......

GOOD JOB IP!!!!!! I have been reading your thread and I am very very very proud of you....I just wish I could do that but my WH is 7000 miles away and it would be really hard to get into Iraq...but good for you...you did the right thing...focus on you and your son now...his anger will die down....don't you give into him and allow him to browbeat you!!!! Stand and stay strong....keep that head up and be proud.....

You did the right thing!

You were brave and honorable!

Don't let anyone try to take that away from you.

And I want to echo what Mr. W said...don't count your MIL out yet.

The louder the protests against you, the more effective the exposure was.

Try to look at it like that.

~ Marsh

Again, your in-laws are following the script. It is very, very common for the WS's family to turn against the BS. We have seen it countless times here. My husband's parents are long deceased but his older sister, now the matriach of the family, angrily told me over the phone that she did not want to hear ANYTHING from me and insisted she wanted "her brother" to Move On And Be Happy. I told her I thought she would want to help (my son's) family to stay together but I saw that I was wrong. I thanked her for her honesty, asked her rhetorically if she knew the extent of her brother's lies and girlfriends, and hung up.

It stinks, but it's very very common. Parents and family members will support their own little darlings no matter how rotten their behaviour. Sometimes it seems that the worse the family member has behaved, the more they have to blame the BS, because otherwise they'd have to acknowledge that one of their own is a lying cheating homewrecker. You think they want to go there? It's MUCH easier for them to blame you.

Don't ever forget that.

Hang in there. You are being called on to show your true colors right now. Your H and his family are sure showing theirs, aren't they?
Mulan

P.S. Loved Lexxxy's last post. Don't ever think all is great in AffairLand just because there's trouble at home. She hit it right on the head.

Yeah, that's called unconditional love.

Now, TEACHING them what the right decision IS... that's called "being a good parent".

In laws can be total creeps! I am glad you wrote back and told her to explain herself and back up her allegations!

My in-laws developed a relationship with OW (who was pregnant with H baby) and the three of them put tremendous pressure on my H to leave me and our children............even before I knew about the affair! His parents threatened to disown him and never see him again if he didn't divorce me.

He didn't leave me and they did disown him. They told OW they would give her any inheritance they would have given H. They wrote him a cruel, horrible good-bye for ever letter that started out "LBelle has destroyed our family"! It had become MY fault that they couldn't make him do what they wanted.

They never spoke to me or my children during the duration of the affair after d-day and totally turned their backs on me after 20 years and I had cancer, too at that time. What kind of people are these? I count myself lucky that I never have to see them again. They came back, by the way, and are now speaking to H and act like nothing ever happened and they did nothing to anyone.

You are doing SO well with your exposure! I wish I could be there and give your H an earful of what he is doing. Don't fall for his manipulation of you and him trying to make you the bad guy/trouble maker. Sounds like he learned this from his parents.

Stay strong. Keep your boundaries. As hard as it is, you have to keep going and try to get the affair to stop. If he won't stop, you don't want to stay married and living with a wayward spouse! The damage he has been doing to you is awful. Don't be scared of losing a cheating spouse. You deserve to be treated with respect, love and caring. Not contempt, disrespect and verbal abuse.

Stand up! You are 100% in the right and he is 100% wrong!! No matter what he says about your marriage in the prior years. Do not take blame for his affair. He did that, not you. Nothing you could have possible done could compare with the cruelty of an affair and the lying that goes with. Nothing!

Hang in there. You are going to be okay. Three (or more) in a marriage doesn't work! There is only room for two.

I'm so PROUD of you. You went through the first battle in the war with flying colors!

Remember that this is a war.

I will add "you disgust me" to my list of things WS's say after exposure. But follow Ark's advice. She is an expert. What you want to do as much as humanly possible is stay COMPLETELY out of things between OW and WH.

I went crazy and did some wild stuff - it just prolonged the affair. Just be yourself, the faithful wife, fighting for your family. The two of them will turn on each other. It is just a matter of time.

As far as the MIL - TYPICAL, TYPICAL, TYPICAL ..... (YAWN)

Hey Just checking on you.

Thank you all so much for your replies!! They helped me calm down a little bit.

Here's an update...Friday morning he left and I assumed he went back to his brothers house to hang out that night like he said he was going to do. He ended up coming home at 1:40 in the morning!!!!!!! I'm sure he was with the OW. I just pretended to sleep. I was so upset. I laid there and wondered what they were doing. I did go by her apartment at some point that night, around 8:30 or 9:00, I guess. I went by there because I had a gut feeling. The good news - his car was not there. The bad news - neither was hers. But, overall that was good news. At least they weren't in her apartment. So, I was hoping he was with his brother. Well, he wasn't.

Saturday, he got up (around 10:30 or 11:00, not unusual) and he talked to me like nothing happened Friday morning. He went to Dunkin Donuts and asked if I wanted anything. He came back and he asked if we were still going to take our son to the mall to see Santa. So, we got ready and went to see Santa. We stayed at the mall for a little bit and then went home.

While we were at the mall, he seemed sad and quiet. He was probably still mad, I guess. I don't know. I can't read him anymore. He certainly wasn't talkative. We sat and ate soft pretzels and he just stared.

I'm hoping that meant that things are not good in affairland! That's all I hope and pray for.

Anyway, he asked me if I had any plans for Saturday night and I said "no". I asked why and he said that he was probably going to go back home that night (to his moms or brothers).

So, when we got home from the mall he stayed for a little while and then he left. He left around 8:30, I guess.

I know he was at his mom's house because my Dad told me he saw his car there this morning. My H also told me yesterday that he was going to go into work today too, so he could be there for all I know. He's still not home yet. He's also leaving tonight until Thursday; he's going out of town for work.

I'm hoping he's not with the OW, obviously. But, I'm hoping he's not still with his Mom. I am so scared that she is going to talk him into leaving me. I can't believe I am saying that because I always thought I had a really good relationship with her. I'm so worried about what she would be telling him. I just feel like I made such a mistake in telling my Mother-In-Law, Brother-In-Law and Sister-In-Law. I'm just hurt. I can't believe she said those things to me. The last thing I need right now is to be hurt by her.

I don't know where the comment came from about our son either. I never said anything to her about not seeing our son or anything. I don't know what she's thinking. Another thing my husband said yesterday is that his mom wanted to watch our son next weekend. She has NEVER asked for him. She always came to our house to see him on Sundays or we asked her to watch him. She has never asked to have him, so I don't know what she's doing. I told him she could have him for one night, but not two. I asked him if he was going to stay there too or come back home and he said he didn't know. I hope I can talk him into staying here and we could have a night together - alone. I won't see him all week. I'm not getting my hopes up on that though.

I do have an important question to ask all of you. I started reading "Surviving an Affair" I read up to the chapter on reconciling the marriage so far. Do you think I should give it to my husband to read? As I was reading it, I thought, this would be good for him to know, but then I would change my mind and go back and forth. Should he know about Plan A and Plan B, etc...? For the most part, I think it would be good for him to read. I was thinking about giving it to him tonight to take out of town with him. Maybe he would have time to read in the night. Do you think that's a good idea? He doesn't like to read, so I don't know if he would read it or not. He's not open to many things these days, especially since exposure happened. I think he's still pretty angry. What do you all think? Should I suggest it to him? Should he read it?

Thank you all for your help. I just hope this works.

Glad to see that you are doing okay. Don't give him the book to read. Wait until there is no contact with the OW. You are very early after exposure. Give it some time, and hang in there.

I'm not sure you should trust your MIL with your son, especially since this is such an aberration from her normal routine. It just makes me nervous. Could your husband be planning to leave you and take his son with him? I know it's farfetched, and I hope I'm totally off base.

Thanks believer. I wondered if it was too early. I was just wondering if it would help sort out his feelings. I'll take your advice and wait. Hopefully, I'll be able to share it with him soon.

Fiatflux: I hope you're off base with that too. I don't think I have to worry about it. He just came I have to go.

My H came in the room and saw me writing my last post. He asked who I was chatting with and then he said "someone private?" I said no, not someone private.

I'm sure he knows I found some sort of support group forum because I belonged to one when I had a miscarriage. Is it okay to tell him that I'm chatting with people for support? I hate to lie to him and keep things from him, especially now.

Anyway, I have a good one for all of you. We went upstairs to finish packing for his trip and he left his cell phone on the kitchen counter to charge. I check his phone every chance I get, especially for text messages. He usually deletes all messages from the OW so I can't see them, but tonight I saw 2!!!!

Here they are; I couldn't wait to share them with you. I am LIVID!!!!!!!!

This is from 11/27/06 @ 3:47 PM - Your wife wants to know if I am going to respond to her e-mail. You can tell her to go to ******. She made a big mistake. For the first time I hope you leave the ******.

I'm sure the big mistake she is talking about is calling her parents. This was the day after I did that. Do you like how she is calling me a ******!!!!! Um, excuse me, but isn't she the one sleeping with someone's husband?????!!?!?! I could go and strangle her right now!!!!!!!

The second text was from 11/27/06 @ 6:39 pm - No I don't. I don't want to talk to you. I don't want to see you. I don't want to think about you or your F%$#$%%ing wife.

I don't know if he asked her to do something or what. I love how I'm the enemy here!!!!! Has she forgotten what she has done to me!?!?!?!? Does she realize she caused all of this?!?!?!?! Her parents may be upset with her, but it's not because of my phone call, it's because of what she did!!!!! Oh, I would love to give her a piece of my mind!!!

Although, I'm glad that she was mad at my H, they have seen each other since then. On Thursday night when I saw them together in his car and probably Friday night. I don't know about Saturday night or today. But, the truth is, they are still seeing each other.

When he came home, he seemed a little agitated. He's probably so pissed at me still. I'm sure his mother isn't helping matters. He talked to me, but he seemed mad.

He said we can talk about it when he gets back on Thursday, but he said he will take our son to his mom's house on Saturday and he'll probably stay there too. I guess I'll have to try and convince him to stay here, but that's not going to be easy. I'm sure he won't.

I just had to share the text messages with you. I would really love to give her a piece of my mind right now. She is unbelievable!!!!!!

I am just FURIOUS!!!!!!

Please don't contact her. You are winning the war. Stay calm. This is very early for the affair to have problems, but I think that is what is happening. Stay out of it.

Exposure works!!!

I'm smiling b/c she's angry!

I'm smiling b/c people she cares about know what a terrible sleazy thing she's done.

I'm smiling b/c she doesn't want to talk to him!

It's not ALWAYS a bad thing to be called a ******. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


~ Marsh

PLEASE reconsider letting your child go to your MIL's. She is not to be trusted with your child right now. PLEASE think about her response to you... letting your child go there is a huge mistake IMO.

I agree. Tell your husband that your MiL is welcome to come visit your son in your home.

Do NOT let your child go to her house.

I KNOW what they can do.

Your H COULD be planning to leave you.

At the moment, you and he have EQUAL custodial rights to your son. It's basically this: Whoever has your son is the one who has custody.

If your H, with the help of his mother, decides to keep your child, you will have to file for custody and get a court order to get your son back. You will not be able to go onto their property to get your son.

I don't know what state you are in, but I'm pretty sure that at this point, most states are like this.

I've been there and done that.

Here's what happened: Our grandsons were visiting us in our home when the OMW called me to tell me that their mother was having an affair with her H, and that in fact, they had announced their "love" to a whole group of people at a cookout.

I immediately called our S, who was on the road for his job. He told me to keep his kids and call our lawyer.

In the meantime, the OMW let OM and exDiL know that she had told us. Well, exDiL did not come to get the boys...I guess because she was afraid of what we'd say to her. She and the OM disappeared and stayed gone for a month.

She called the next day after exposure and wanted to know if I was gonna let her have her kids. I calmly explained that Kenneth said they should stay with us until he could get home, but that she was welcome to come see the boys. I took the boys NOWHERE until DS got emergency temporary custody a few days later.

While she was gone for that month, she called the boys every day. I repeatedly assured her that she could come and spend time with the boys and I would not say anything to her about what she'd done, but she declined.

So, since your MiL is behaving out of the ordinary, I wouldn't let my child out of my sight if I were you. I say this because of what she wrote in her letter to you.about the "OR her son" part. If she wants to see her grandson, she can come to your house for the time being.

You may have to file for legal separation to ensure that you have temporary custody.

Just protect your child!

I agree 100% with LC. Be careful.
Another point. Your MIL spending time with your child is not her right... it is a gift from you and your H. If she is not protective and supportive of your M, then she is part of the cancer that is trying to destroy your M. Until such a time as she decides to act appropriately, I would not give her access to your child at all. Grandparents have no legal rights to the children any longer. There was a movement for a while that suggested otherwise, but the courts have struck that down. Take a stand... protect your child and your M. This is a battle worth fighting.

Thank you all for your replies.

I really am torn on what to do. I don't want to appear uncooperative if something should happen. I don't want them to use that against me that I didn't allow her to see my son. Plus, I really have no right to keep him from my husband at this point. I can't stop him from taking my son there and I'm sure that's what he would do. I think it would just cause a big fight betweem me and my husband and that would be a big Love Buster. He's already so mad at me, I can tell. I hate the way he looks at me. He's really angry.

I really don't think they would do anything to keep my son away from me. Although, I never thought she would react that way either. I knew she would definitely take his side because that's how she is, but I didn't think she would be outright cruel to me. She was so rude. I've e-mailed her again and she won't e-mail me back. So, I guess she's just going to ignore me now. This is the last thing that I needed.

I am such a mess right now. I can't eat because my stomach is in knots. It was a huge mistake to involve my in-laws. I really wish I would not have. It only made matters worse and didn't help me at all. I'm so upset. I feel like I"m getting no where. I love my husband so much. I just don't know what the right thing is anymore.

Inform your WH of your decision to let MIL visit the grandkids at your home, not hers.

If he wants to know why, tell her the story Lady Clueless shared. He'll balk at it and talk about how you can TRUST him -- but stand your ground! Look him in the eye and say "I used to think I could trust you -- but not anymore."

And you may want to consider explaining your decision to MIL directly -- because otherwise WH will use this as further justification of how un-nice you are. Don't worry about her betrayal -- you have Honesty, Integrity, and the right Values on your side! She's trying to buy into his justifications.

Protect kids -- #1 priority!

And I'm amazed at how close I nailed the conversation between him and her!!! They are Lovebusting the heck out of each other right now. So you be the nice calm place in the storm.

He's angry right now, but it's NOT your fault he's angry.

You've done the RIGHT thing.

You've stunned him by being as brave as you were.

He never thought you had it in you.

THIS IS WAR!!!!

You have a plan....he doesn't.

Whatever you do do NOT let him know about MB!

If he starts reading here, then the advice you're getting will be useless.

I agree w/ Lexxy's advice.

Tell your WH that his mother may come visit your son as she always has. Hold your ground. If he insists on taking your son to visit....then you go along too.

Here's a list of Do's and Don'ts that Mr. W found somewhere...

DOs

1. Act Happy
2. Get a life (new activities, etc.)
3. repeat over and over..."I will make it"
4. Actively LISTEN....keep conversations at "to the point...small talk" ...don't blow it up beyond the waywards current comfort zone
5. Tend to Agree (Thank you for your truthfulness, It seems that way, you have a point)
6. Expand your social relationships (Being especially aware of your own vulnerability and keeping sharing and time with opposite sex relationships to an absolute minimum)
7. Get sexy (gym, new clothes, etc)
8. Focus on your strengths and Positives...don't put yourself down verbally or constantly go over what you did wrong
9. Accept Uncertainty (Do your best today and let God take care of tommorrow)

DON'Ts

1. Repeatedly say "I love you"
2. Ask questions that don't have answers yet
3. Criticize, complain, whine or nag
4. Say, "I've changed"....allow the wayward spouse to simply judge your actions
5. Argue, Reason or Plead
6. Don't get family or friends overly involved in recovery (notice I said "in recovery", EXPOSURE to bust up an active affair IS ESSENTIAL and EXPOSURE to the OP's spouse is an absolute MUST)
7. Act helpless or depressed
8. Discuss morality, invoke God or Dr. Laura type babble
9. Suggest marital counseling (must be the waywards idea)
10. Tell them continually "we need to work on the relationship"
11. GIVE UP

Stay focused.

Keep posting.

~ Marsh

Thank you Lexxy and Marsh! Quick question and comment:




**I know, you nailed it! Also, I hope they keep Love Busting. I'm praying for that!!!**

I think that list of DOs and DON'Ts is PERFECT!!!

inpain, I have a suggestion that may possibly prove the affair and get the OWH on board.I would place a voice activated recorder in his car that will pick up their conversations. I suspect you will get an earful if they are talking on the cell while he is driving. You could take this to OWH and play it for him.

Have you told the OWH about all this yet?

OW is not married- but she did expose to her parents.

Translation: "I am scared sh*tless of your wife! I didn't think she would ever confront me or ever say a word about this. I thought people were always too scared to do something like that and only wanted to hush it all up like I do. Maybe if I threaten her enough, she go back to being silent. You'd BETTER leave her if you want me, because she won't let us have our affair in peace and that terrifies me!"


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Isn't this what everyone here told you would happen?

Do you see what a huge monkey wrench you have thrown into their fantasy? It's not so much fun for them anymore, is it? And that was exactly the idea behind the exposure.

And on a more serious note: Do be extremely careful about your son. It would not hurt to call a lawyer and find out exactly what your rights are - even if you have to file for legal separation.

Never forget that the worse the actions of the WS, the more the family will insist on blaming YOU. That's because their only other choice is to look at their family member as the lying cheating wh*ring homewrecker that he is, and they don't have it in them to do that. So, they will find a way to blame YOU and punish YOU.

My H's family did this by simply cutting me out of family gatherings like weddings and reunions (and he was fine with that) and told me over the phone that they wanted him to "move on and be happy" - that is, divorce me and find somebody better.

But your WH's family has the perfect weapon in your DS5. Don't ever forget this. Don't put ANYTHING past them when it comes to protecting their own butts. They are in every bit as much denial as your WH and his OW.

You have done a fantastic job so far. Don't hesitate to use your very best weapon: Honesty. Don't try to be manipulative or tiptoe around things or just "hope it will somehow out." If you fear that WH and/or his mother might try to keep your son from you, then SAY SO. That puts the ball squarely in their court and once again makes them realize that you are not stupid and not a frightened mouse but are indeed a force to be reckoned with.
Hang in there -
Mulan

Thanks for the advice. Like moveforeward said, the OW is not married, but I think I would still like to get a voice activated recorder for his car. Where can I get one of these? Like I said in a previous post, I did see them together in his car on Thursday night. I wonder how much that happens? I would love to know what they were talking about. A recorder may be what I need.

Sorry this got deleted. She wanted me to go to [email]HE@#[/email] and she called me a [email]WHO@%.[/email]

I still can't believe she called me that. That is good. I am really happy that she was mad at him and she told him she didn't want to see, talk, or think about him and his F#@$%&^ing wife. I also love that she always refers to me as "his wife" instead of using my name. At least she's aware that, yes, I AM HIS WIFE!!!!! HE IS A MARRIED MAN!!!!!

Anyway, I would feel better about it if I didn't see them together in his car on Thursday night. They are still talking and they are still getting together. They were probably even together on Friday night after the Christmas party. I'm sure of it. So, she's probably not mad anymore.

I just hope I can get him back. He seems so disinterested and I really don't think he loves me anymore. I'm in so much pain. I love him so much. I just want another chance!

I want to add something: I want to thank all of you for giving me strength. When he yelled at me on Friday morning, I was very calm. I just laid there with my son and let him yell. When asked questions, I calmly told him I was doing everything I could to save the marriage. Even after he left, I didn't cry. A few weeks ago, I would have cried and begged him to give me another chance and I would have apologized. I would have cried all day and been a mess. I didn't do that this time. I was very calm. I actually even smiled to myself when I heard him say "you disgust me". It made me smile because I'm the one that should have been saying that. How could I disgust him?! Shouldn't I be disgusted by him?

Anyway, I just want him to realize that he could get fired from his job because of his actions, not because I told his boss. Her parents are mad at her because of what she did, not because I called them. I'm sure he won't see it that way though. I guess I'm just very impatient and I want this fog lifted.

I want a chance to recover. Although, I don't know what we'll do about the fact that they work together. One of them has to leave and I don't see either one of them doing that.

The FOW in my situation used to do the same...must be part of their script...YUCK..

Except she would also call me a B/TCH..and I would ALWAYS call her a HO..she hated that..but that is what she was...

You are doing GREAT!!

You are ADMIRED here for your STRENGTH during these most difficult times for you...

In-Pain,

You are doing so well. Remain calm no matter what. This will drive him insane. He wants to fight and be able to blame you for how he is....

It also amazes me that the B****, W****, S***, homewrecking piece of S*** thinks that somehow you are to blame for her W****** around with YOUR husband. She's an Azz Clown (royalties to Justpeachy for use of this term)!

Sorry for the rant but when I read this I felt like going off like Dennis Leary...

Good Girl! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

When he said, "you disgust me" he was projecting. He is really disqusted w/ himself.

You are holding up a mirror to his rotten behavior..it is his own behavior that has sickened him. NOT you.

You just keep staying calm.

He doesn't expect this from you.

He expects you to beg and plead w/ him.

You are FREAKING him out.

He doesn't know what to expect from you next!

THIS IS VERY GOOD!

You want to keep the WS off balance.

You're doing FANTASTIC!!!

Here's an article for you to read through.

Take whatever you can from it....

James Dobson's "Love Must Be Tough"

Only those who have been rejected by a beloved spouse can fully comprehend the tidal wave of pain that crashes into one's life when a relationship ends. Nothing else matters. There are no consoling thoughts. The future is without interest or hope. Emotions swing wildly from despair to acceptance and back again. Nothing in human experience can compare with the agony of knowing that the person to whom you pledged eternal devotion has betrayed your trust and is now involved in sexual intimacies with a "stranger". . . a competitor . . . a more beautiful or handsome playmate. Death itself would be easier to tolerate than being tossed aside like an old shoe.

If one word must be selected to describe the entire experience, it would be something equivalent to panic. Just as a drowning person exhausts himself or herself in a desperate attempt to grasp anything that floats, a rejected partner typically tries to grab and hold the one who is leaving. This panic then leads to appeasement, which destroys what is left of the marriage.

Let's look for a moment at the other half of the relationship—focusing on the individual who wants out of the marriage. What secrets lie deep within the mind of the woman who has an affair with her boss, or the man who chases the office flirt? Surprising to some, the desire for sex is not the primary motivator in such situations. Something much more basic is operating below the surface.

Long before any decision is made to "fool around" or walk out on a partner, a fundamental change has begun to occur in the relationship. Many books on this subject lay the blame on the failure to communicate, but I disagree. The inability to talk to one another is a symptom of a deeper problem, but it is not the cause itself. The critical element is the way a husband or wife begins to devalue the other and their lives together. It is a subtle thing at first, often occurring without either partner being aware of the slippage. But as time passes, one individual begins to feel trapped in a relationship with someone he or she no longer respects.

Now we begin to see why groveling, crying and pleading by a panic-stricken partner tend to drive the claustrophobic partner even farther away. The more he or she struggles to gain a measure of freedom (or even secure a little breathing room), the more desperately the rejected spouse attempts to hang on.

Perhaps it is now apparent where the present line of reasoning is leading us. If there is hope for dying marriages, and I certainly believe there is, then it is likely to be found in the reconstruction of respect between warring husbands and wives. That requires the vulnerable spouse to open the cage door and let the trapped partner out! All the techniques of containment must end immediately, including manipulative grief, anger, guilt and appeasement. Begging, pleading, crying, hand-wringing and playing the role of the doormat are equally destructive. There may be a time and place for strong feelings to be expressed, and there may be an occasion for quiet tolerance. But these responses must not be used as persuasive devices to hold the drifting partner against his or her will.

To the reader who is desperately in need of this advice, please pay close attention at this point: I'm sure you would not have dreamed of using these coercive methods to convince your husband or wife to marry you during your dating days. You had to lure, attract, charm and encourage him or her. This subtle game of courtship had to take place one delicate step at a time. Obviously, it would not have been successful if you had wept violently and hung on the neck of your lover saying, "I think I'll die if you don't marry me! My entire life amounts to nothing without you. Please! Oh, please, don't turn me down," etc.

Coercing and manipulating a potential marriage partner is like high-pressure tactics by a used car salesman. What do you think he would accomplish by telling a potential customer through his tears, "Oh, please, buy this car! I need the money so badly and I've only had two sales so far this week. If you turn me down, I think I'll go straight out and kill myself!"

This is a ridiculous analogy, of course, but there is applicability to it. When one has fallen in love with an eligible partner, he attempts to "sell himself" to the other. But like the salesman, he must not deprive the buyer of free choice in the matter. Instead, he must convince the customer that the purchase is in his own interest. If a person would not buy an automobile to ease the pain of a salesman, how much more unlikely is he to devote his entire being to someone he doesn't love, simply for benevolent reasons? None of us is that unselfish. Ideally, we are permitted by God to select only one person in the course of a lifetime, and few are willing to squander that one shot on someone we merely pity! In fact, it is very difficult to love another person romantically and pity him or her at the same time.

If begging and pleading are ineffective methods of attracting a member of the opposite sex during the dating days, why do victims of bad marriages use the same groveling techniques to hold a drifting spouse? They only increase the depth of disrespect by the one who is escaping. Instead, they should convey their own version of the following message when the time is right: "John [or Diane], I've been through some very tough moments since you decided to leave, as you know. My love for you is so profound that I just couldn't face the possibility of life without you. To a person like me, who expected to marry only once and to remain committed for life, it is a severe shock to see our relationship begin to unravel. Nevertheless, I have done some intense soul-searching, and I now realize that I have been attempting to hold you against your will. That simply can't be done. As I reflect on our courtship and early years together, I'm reminded that you married me of your own free choice. I did not blackmail you or twist your arm or offer you a bribe. It was a decision you made without pressure from me. Now you say you want out of the marriage, and obviously, I have to let you go. I'm aware that I can no more force you to stay today than I could have made you marry me in 1989 [or whenever]. You are free to go. If you never call me again, then I will accept your decision. I admit that this entire experience has been painful, but I'm going to make it. The Lord has been with me thus far and He'll go with me in the future. You and I had some wonderful times together, John. You were my first real love and I'll never forget the memories that we shared. I will pray for you and trust that God will guide you in the years ahead."

Slowly, unbelievably, the trapped spouse witnesses the cage door vibrate just a bit, and then start to rise. He can't believe it. This person to whom he has felt bound hand and foot for years has now set him free! It isn't necessary to fight off her advances—her grasping hands—any more.

"But there must be a catch," he thinks. "It's too good to be true. Talk is cheap. This is just another trick to win me back. In a week or two she'll be crying on the phone again, begging me to come home. She's really weak, you know, and she'll crack under pressure."

It is my strongest recommendation that you, the rejected person, prove your partner wrong in this expectation. Let him marvel at your self-control in coming weeks. Only the passage of time will convince him that you are serious—that he is actually free. He may even test you during this period by expressions of great hostility or insult, or by flirtation with others. But one thing is certain: He will be watching for signs of weakness or strength. The vestiges of respect hang in the balance.

If the more vulnerable spouse passes the initial test and convinces the partner that his freedom is secure, some interesting changes begin to occur in their relationship. Please understand that every situation is unique and I am merely describing typical reactions, but these developments are extremely common in families I have seen. Most of the exceptions represent variations on the same theme. Three distinct consequences can be anticipated when a previously "grabby" lover begins to let go of the cool spouse:

The trapped partner no longer feels it necessary to fight off the other, and their relationship improves. It is not that the love affair is rekindled, necessarily, but the strain between the two partners is often eased.

As the cool spouse begins to feel free again, the question he has been asking himself changes. After wondering for weeks or months, "How can I get out of this mess?" he now asks, "Do I really want to go?" Just knowing that he can have his way often makes him less anxious to achieve it. Sometimes it turns him around 180 degrees and brings him back home!

The third change occurs not in the mind of the cool spouse but in the mind of the vulnerable one. Incredibly, he or she feels better—somehow more in control of the situation. There is no greater agony than journeying through a vale of tears, waiting in vain for the phone to ring or for a miracle to occur. Instead, the person has begun to respect himself or herself and to receive small evidences of respect in return. Even though it is difficult to let go once and for all, there are ample rewards for doing so. One of those advantages involves the feeling that he or she has a plan—a program—a definite course of action to follow. That is infinitely more comfortable than experiencing the utter despair of powerlessness that the victim felt before. And little by little, the healing process begins.

This recommendation is consistent with the Apostle Paul's writings in 1 Corinthians 7:15: "But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances. God has called us to live in peace" (NIV). Paul is not authorizing the rejected spouse to initiate a divorce in these instances. He is, rather, instructing a man or woman to release the marital partner when he or she is determined to depart. The advice I have offered today is an expression of that scripture.

Well, that represents my attempt to summarize a basic theme of Love Must Be Tough, which is 212 pages in length. I hope it will be helpful to those who have been struggling to keep a troubled marriage alive. In a broader sense, the principles I have described are not only relevant to husbands and wives in a time of crisis; they are applicable to healthier marriages, too. Indeed, I wish they could be taught to every engaged or newlywed couple in the morning of their lives together. There would be fewer bitter divorces if young husbands and wives knew how to draw their drifting partners toward them, rather than relentlessly driving them away. Respect, you see, is not only vital to rebuilding broken marriages, but to preserving healthy relationships day by day.

Now isn't that just like an author to promise the moon to his readers? All writers have this tendency to overestimate the significance of their views. Books being published today offer everything from 30 more years of life for men or ageless skin for women. Unfortunately, these authors rarely deliver on their promises; they remind me of "Professor Miraculous" in the Old West who sold his Elixir of Life from the back of his covered wagon and then left town ... fast.

Hoping not to fall into the same "cure-all" trap, let me tell you candidly how I feel about the various concepts described in Love Must Be Tough—only one of which is addressed in this letter. Genuine insights into human behavior are not everyday occurrences—at least not for me. Indeed, if one stumbles onto two or three fundamental principles in the course of a lifetime, he or she has done well. The concepts I expressed in this book focus on one of my allotted few. Do they always preserve dysfunctional marriages? Of course not. No one can make that promise. But even in cases where the spark of love has died, the principle of self-respect in the face of rejection holds true. The alternative is usually despair.

I recall reading that VERY DOBSON PASSAGE over and over again for STRENGTH and UNDERSTANDING..

And when I made that turn it most DEFINITELY BLEW MY H'S MIND....I can clearly recall that look on his face...

It was a REAL TURNING POINT in our situation....

That's when I began saying: "I DON'T WANT YOU UNTIL YOU WANT ME..YOU'RE FREE TO GO"...

I was filled with UTTER PAIN on the inside but on the outer exterior I was able to REMAIN CALM.....

Looking back now, that is when I began WINNING THE BATTLE...

Oh Mimi, I know all of our stories are so similar but you always say just what I'm thinking or your story always sounds so much like mine.

how ya doing?

in pain, Marsh, mimi and InAD ~

Ditto, ditto, ditto for me and the Dobson passage ~ I've used this approach twice now with my H (once when we were dating and broke up for a year (guess, I shoulda taken advantage of that and run for the hills then, huh?!?!?! ~ hahahaha), and then again now, in this big old mess.

Worked like a charm both times ~ but the coolest part for ME has been that IT WAS AND IS HOW I REALLY FEEL!!!!! And that is a such a great feeling ~ it's like something in my mind finally clicked and I realized ~ geez, this is not about ME ~ I know what I want, and what I expect. If FWH wants to start acting like a husband and a father, and putting as much into this M that I am, then...great!!

And if not ~ oh well. I'll be moving on my way, and I'll find someone who DOES cherish me and M the same way I do.

Way to go, in pain!!!

~MF

Thank you Marsh!

I need people to cheer me on at this point. I'm feeling so down and unsure of myself and of my marriage. I'm so terrified.

Thank you for sharing the article with me. I know I'm not ready for something that drastic. I'm not sure where I stand, actually....

I know, just take from it what you're ready for and leave the rest.

How about an update?

What's been going on?


~ Marsh

Okay, here's an update...

My WH left Sunday night to go away for work. I decdided to go to my best friend's house in MD; I live in PA. My husband will be home tonight and my son and I will also go home tonight.

My WH did call our house on Monday night to see what size clothes our son wears. He said he might get to do some shopping in his free time. We talked for about 15 minutes. I told him my plans to go to my friend's house and then I told him to call me on his cell phone. He seemed pretty upbeat when we talked.

Well, that was the last time I heard from him. I'm really upset, down and depressed right now. I'm so scared that he is so far gone. I feel like I lost him. It's so sad, but I am dreading going home. I don't want to go back to my life. I can't believe this is happening to me. I can't believe how sad I am. I hate my life.

I'm sorry, I need some help.

Did anyone else experience this type of resistance from their WS, but was still able to fix the marriage?

Please help!

Also, when would be a good time to ask him to do the Emotional Needs Questionaire? He still may be angry from the exposure.

Thanks in advance...

in_pain - Assuming you know he's physically all right and not in a hospital or something -

If your WH is angry with you, and we know he is, what would be the best way for your him to punish you and upset you right now?

And what would he like very much for you to do in response to that?

Think about it.
Mulan

He's pissed off at you for exposure, so he's giving you the silent treatment to punish you. This is typical WS behavior. You need to stand tall and keep up the good work.

Ok, today is a good day for you to stand tall, square those shoulders, and do one heck of a Plan A. Have the house tidy, you and the baby looking awesome, a nice dinner cooked, etc.

Talk to him. Touch his hand. Make him aware of you.

You can do this!

You have done awesome on Plan A on the exposure part, now is the time to put some of the carrot of plan A into effect.

You can do it!

I know you are wondering, "how in the heck am I going to do this?"..keep up what you have been doing so far. You've held up wonderfully..considering what you are going through... I agree with the others regarding the need for a STRONG Plan A now.

You asked if others have experienced this...

It was a LONG HARD AND WINDING ROAD for me..

I sounded much, much like you when I would come to the forum...

AND NOW...

My H and I are very happily recovered for 3 years...

After D-Day, he began leaving on Friday to spend the entire weekend with the other woman...

Like you, I felt that I had "lost him"...

His style was to call on Sunday and ask... "Is it alright to come HOME?"..like Mulan is suggesting..wanting me to blow up at him in order to justify to himself the need to stay gone another day..sometimes he actually wouldn't return until Monday...YUCK...

In my PLAN A, I was able to remain CALM, staying steadfast in my conviction to him that I wanted to "work on our marriage". I did let him know that I was "unhappy" with his choice to treat me that way..but I did not whine or plead with him and did not lovebust by yelling and screaming like I wanted to do...I did all that while he was gone...in the midst of all my CLEANING....

Check with someone to verify he is still alive and not in jail. After that go find something to keep you occupied. If you need something t/d, you can come over my house and help me work on my side yard. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I am sure there are better things for you t/d.

Don't try to teach a WS anything. They are not capable of learning. Save that for your H.

L.

are you around?

let us know how you are, ok?

Bump...hoping to hear from you.

Mimi: how in the world did you survive this? How did you put up with this? How long did he go to the OW's for the weekend? I wish I had your strength. What made him come back to you? I would love to hear your story. I'm feeling at the end of my rope. I feel VERY defeated right now.

I did hear from my husband on Thursday. He called my cell phone and left me a message and he also sent me an e-mail earlier that day around noon. Here's his e-mail - nothing special:

"Not sure if you are checking e-mail, but I wanted to let you know that my phone is dead. I'm not sure if you went to _____________(friend's house) or if you are there now, but my phone pretty much died last night and then I forgot to e-mail earlier. I didn't have a chance to call Tuesday. I was at the King of Prussia mall for 2 1/2 hours - that place is huge. Unfortunately I didn't really find what I was looking for but I got a few things for him. Probably more expensive than I should have paid, but oh well. I didn't get to the motel in Millersburg until 10:30 Tues night. And oh by the way, this is the place that doesn't have phones in the room!! Anyway, let me know where you are and what your plans are. I'll be stopping back in the office tonight when I get back and I'm not sure when I'll be home for good. I may stop home, change, unload my car and then stop in the office."


So, he did explain why he didn't call me, but I guess if he really wanted to he would have. I'm just trying to be hopeful.

I stayed at my friend's house Thursday night and I got home Friday night. He was still at work when I got home. He seemed fine with me that night.

We get along fine. I guess we're friends. But, that's not what I want. I have enough friends. I want my husband.

I am having a really bad night. My WH told me he was going into the office tonight. I think he left around 6:30. My gut told me not to believe him. I went to the grocery store with my son and then I drove by his office. His car was not there; I just knew it wasn't going to be. I drove to the OW's apartment and his car was there. I just left the parking lot and cried all the way home.

I just don't know what to do anymore. I can't share my husband anymore. I'm tired. I'm tired of crying.

A friend of mine keeps telling me I need to get aggressive and I need to get a backbone and she is right. I don't know how to do that. I don't know what I'm afraid of. She keeps telling me that I need to stand up for myself and stop being a doormat and I agree with her 100%. But, I don't know how to change myself. When it's not in your nature or part of your personality, it's hard to change. How did all of you get up the nerve to stand up for yourself? I should have tried to get into her apartment (you have to be buzzed in) and told both of them off, but instead I drove home crying. I should have called him on his cell phone and told him to come home, but I didn't.

I feel like he's slipping further and further away each day and I don't know what to do.

Can anyone give me any help? Any advice on how to get tough? It's absolutely killing me knowing that he is over there with her.

I'm at a loss.........

I'm sorry this has happened to you. It probably won't make you feel any better to know that he is following the typical WS script, but he is. He's no different from any other WS - from any other addict.

How long have you been in Plan A?
Mulan

It actually does make me feel better that he is a typical WS, I guess.

It's hard to say how long I've been in Plan A actually. I found out my marriage was in trouble in May. I started making personal changes in May and June. I realized that I had made a lot of mistakes and I was learning from them. I was really working hard to save my marriage. However, I didn't know about this site yet, so I didn't really know I was in Plan A. During this time, I also did a lot of crying, begging, pleading, etc...I did everything he wanted. I didn't expose, etc...I really didn't follow Plan A because I didn't know what it was. I was making personal changes though and my WH did notice them. He just said it didn't really make a difference (probably because he still has contact with OW).

I started exposing the Sunday after Thanksgiving and I haven't begged, cried or pleaded in a while. So, I really don't know when I started Plan A. It was either the end of May or the end of November? I feel like I've been living this nightmare forever.

What are your thoughts?

not that it makes your situation any better...but i'm living proof that it certainly can be much worse

there may be nmany strong people here...but there are also many people who are lost, scared, and broken hearted just like you

His phone was dead because he was with the OW. I heard the same babble.

I know u r hurt and soon you w/b mad, very mad. Please read the link in my sig line about the stages of grieving so you know what's ahead.

Then u can be prepared and know one day all those tears will stop. That's when the WS will start to worry.

Btw, these boards appear strong because many of us have been in your shoes. Just in a different size and style. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hugz,
L.

It sounds like you may want to stay in Plan A for a little longer, if you feel strong enough. While you are there, start getting your ducks in a row so you will be ready for Plan B.

And most of us strongly recommend that even when in Plan A, you do NOT have SF with an active WS. The physical and emotional risks are just too great. Do the rest, but not that one.

You are still in shock right now, but aAs Orchid said one of these days you will wake up and be mad as h*ll. Let the anger help you to get a great plan started - a great (and short) Plan A with Plan B ready to go.

You may have seen this already, but this is your game plan for right now:


"The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A" by Pepperband

THE CARROT OF PLAN A:

Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.



THE STICK OF PLAN A

Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not apologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Allowing the consequences of adultery and infidelity to fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to affect children of the marriage or the financial security of the marriage, or otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slain for the good of the family.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Plan A is both a *carrot* and a *stick*.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mulan

The other posters are right, some of us are stronger now, but been were you are now, the pain, reget and the whole emotional roller coaster.



There are other MB members that are more seasoned in dealing with this then I. Keep checking in, read the plans. This site has help me so much and will help you!!

I know you feel "at a Loss". Just like many of us did. But MB members can help you dealing with that feeling.

in pain.....hi, i am sorry you are going through this. btdt

i have to ask...how far is millersburg from where you live? cause its not far from me. also, king of prussia is only 45 min to an hour from me. if i can help in any way, let me know. if you ever need a safe haven or an escape...im not far....

You did just fine. It was better not to confront them. I caught my WH and OW in bed together in his home. His roommate let me in. All it did was fuel their affair.

It is lonely and miserable to go through this. Did you ever write to the OW's parents? I think I would do that. Tell them that your husband and baby's father "disappeared" with the OW for a couple of days. Let them know that you want to keep your family together.

nikko: I need a little help. What does btdt mean?

Also, I think I live about 2 hours from Millersburg and Philadelphia is about 3 hours away, I think. Thank you for offering that safe haven. I may need to take you up on that some day!

in_pain,

I had a similar go at Plan A when I started on my roller coaster. I hadn't found MB until 8 mos after WH started his A. I was in Plan A for a very long time (as I was making improvements even without knowing about MB principles) EXCEPT, as you did, I cried a lot, and expressed grief over being ignored and disrespected.

I am MUCH stronger now, and am doing pretty well. I still have moments of tears and some sorrow, but my life is continuing on, and I do not LONG for my WH, as the wayward is an enemy to me and the happiness of my family.

I did not come to this place without dealing with the perils of travel. I'm still on the roller coaster, but I'm actually enjoying some of the ups and downs again; real life has them, but in real life you get a safety harness; with the wayward you are dangling by their whims...

believer: I was worried about confronting them because I was afraid of it just fueling them and giving the OW the benefit of seeing me upset. So, do you have any suggestions on how I stop this? I feel like I am just letting him get away with this. If I continue to let him get away with it, then he has no reason to stop. What do I do when he tells me he's going into the office and I know that that's not where he was? Or when he comes right out and tells me he's going over to her apartment to "hang out"? I don't even know how to react to that.

I guess I need to let him know I know he wasn't at the office last night. I can hear him now. He'll be mad at me for driving by her apartment to "check up on him", even though I know I have every right to do that. And a lot of reason to do that.

How do I stop this?!?!?!

Also, I did write a letter to her parents.

He did go on this business trip alone. The OW was supposed to go because she was on the job to audit it, but I asked a friend (and co-worker of theirs) to make sure she got taken off the job and she did. So that was good.

Any advice on how to deal with this and to stop being his doormat to stomp all over would be greatly appreciated.

believer,
you don't tink she should at least call him and tell him she knows where he is? Instead, se sits at homs and crys. How the heck is that helping anything?

So far, she is enabling his affair by allowing it to continue uninterrupted.

I am not trying to be mean, but she has to stop being a doormat and an enabler.

I believe you ALREADY have the strength you desire, it's just that you aren't used to excercing it.

It's there...you have the power...just like Dorothy had the power to go home.

You've already proven you have it...when you exposed.

The first thing you need to do is halve the pain you are feeling, by BELIEVING that his A has NOTHING to do w/ YOU!

It has to do w/ your WH and something that is missing inside HIMSELF. He's trying to fix it by going outside himself, and through someone else. The A will NOT do what he thinks it will, and the A will NOT last.

You must think of the A exactly as you would a drug addiction. You wouldn't feel jealous or feel inferior to a drug would you? So, all that comparing you're doing to yourself, stop.

A poster named AMIOK had her husband leave her w/ HIS bio kids every day to go and be w/ his OW. Her sitch looked VERY bad. But guess what??? The A is over and they are recovering their marriage.

A poster named LovingAnyway told her to look at his trips to visit the OW as if he were Alice in Wonderland climbing down the rabbit hole....A's are pure fantasy, IP. Don't hurt yourself more by believing they are more than that.

Dig deep, IP, and find that source of strength w/in you that you've been afraid to dive into. It's there waiting for you...

Here's a post from a poster named Ark who is fantastic w/ plan A....

FIRST thing is that I strongly strongly believe that before you even begin plan A...that you make a time limit for it...with plans to go to Plan B...
that for plan b to be effective you must have a good plan a...and for plan a to be effective and have the stamina to hang in there and give so unconditionally you must have a time frame in mind for plan b.....

Plan A is ALL about the assumption that the WS is still in the affair or in contact...
this is your map to navigating those treacherous waters...

it also is your big moment to diffuse all the excuses WS are prone to use to justify their behavior and choices....

and more you can diffuse their blame...

the bs is "always depressed"
the bs "always wants to talk about relationships"
the bs "is controlling"
the bs "yells all the time"
etc....

the more you remove those things...and the more you remove yourself from any powerstruggles of insanse things...

he said she said..
etc...
the more your disengage from arguements..again the more they have look at their own actions and choices....

here's what I told familymatters..One of the biggest mistakes that people make in plan A is that they begin to meet their spouses needs....and still hold on to great expectations of reward and reinforcement from their spouse....

plan a is ALL about learning to give and do for a bit with NO expectation of ANYTHING in return...

the giving of self and gifts with no strings attached....

I have quoted the silly add campaign for some perfume in the 70's here before...but I think it fits....

It went like this ...

"if you want to get someones attention...
whisper."..

plan a is like a whisper of behaviors and actions...
plan a should not be huge demonstrative expressions of love and romance...

WS are incapable of accepting those things...
part of that is that their actions at the time of continuing an affair are NOT loving and lovable...
and they KNOW it..
sometimes they know it better than their BS...who still want to use words like love to them...

so they get resentful
or shut down
or depressed..
or it solidifies their belief that they are so "bad" or so far gone...it feeds into their excuse and defense of unworthiness...

plan a is about filling the home with love and light in other ways...

it about an upbeat environment without the deep doom cloud hanging overhead..

it is about a home filled with children's activities and joy when applicable and it is about inviting and drawing the wS into those times and activities....

and even when they refuse to come in to the joy...the joy goes on without them...

BS that do a good plan a...say they feel like their WS didn't notice..or only was receptive now and then...and then their involvement and particpation increased...

WS that were handed a good plan a...say they watched and noticed EVERYTHING...EVERYTHING....even when the bS thought they didn't notice a thing....

WS are in great turmoil...and human nature is in conflict to take ALWAYS the path of the least resistance.....

the path of least resistance...is withdrawal and wallowing in self loathing and pity..

the path of least resistance is the OP..for they can not judge and force the WS to see their own actions...because they are as guilty as the other....

so plan A'rs.....need to stop ALL relationship talk..
all talk of love...

you do things that are subtle...
like put a CD in that the WS likes...and just enjoy if yourself...and if they enjoy it also...so be it..
even better yet when it is a blast from the past CD...one that speaks of a history...without blatant insistance that the wS remember this or that....

just history...

the person in plan A...needs to be upbeat and charming...they need to see that the BS is capable of fun and joy...because if all they ever see is a BS lost in the pain..then it will solidify their belief that the pain the WS has caused will never go away...and no one can stand to see the pain they have inflicted day after day...(unless psychotic or sadistic)

the person in plan a needs to engage family and friends in fun activites always always always inviting the wS to join in...
they need to see that things can and could be normal again....

plan a can be leaving a love note...but more impressive a joke...
buy an old farside book and make copies of the really really funny ones....
or the old calvin and hobbs.......
and leave those posted about...
WS seek false joy and laughter....
bring them back to real laughter.....

plan a'rs need to learn to babble back to the insanity that Ws say..and give the babble no leverage or "to die for importance"....

plan a'rs need a time limit of doing plan a with a concrete plan when to go to plan b..
the better the plan b..the better the reality of the consequances of plan b...

make plans to things the wS likes to do..
baseball games..
movies
etc..
and when they dont' want to go..
still go and do them..
be up up up up beat...

draw them to you and your home like a moth to a flame...

work on yourself
find an outside interest that gives you some relief ..

expect nothing nothing nothing from the Ws within a limited time period and free yourself in to the ability to give and do for your spouse better than you ever had....

WS are not used to getting thing with no strings attached....
it will confuse and baffle them...but when they try to use the old "your pressuring me excuse"..it will fall on their empty ears..cause they know that has not been the case..

take them a coffee expresso piled high with whip cream...at work or bring it home to them...and leave it for them..
don't badger them to thank you
don't badger them to tell you how much they liked it..
lay it at their feet and walk away whistling...
find the joy in the act of giving and doing and not in the receptiveness....

hard hard hard hard it is......
but set the time frame and go for it....
anyone can do anything for six weeks..
(except ATKINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! )

and pray for Gods Grace to enter your heart and home...
pray for serenity...
make you house the home where you and the kids and WS would want to be....


become strong...
become confident
become engaging and charming...

realize that YOU the BS are not lovable or desirable..based on your spouses giving or taking of love...
that you stand alone in this world..
lovabe and desirable...inspite of your spouses...


that's why plan A is all about each and every encounter and glimpse in to you and your home life being as engaging and attractive.....


plan a is all about doing what you can to end an affair....
plan a is built on the presumption that they are in contact...
that's why your contact needs to be better and with more value and depth....

this does not mean that you don't set boundaries on what you will tolerate in your life..

you will not "babysit" the kids so she can go with the OP...

you don't condone any contact..
but you don't powerstruggle it either...


if you think your spouse is going to go out with op don't make it easy for them..don't watch the kids...make plans first...and leave him or her with the kids...etc

hope this helps some..
ark”

You WILL make it!!!

~ Marsh

Plan A until after the holidays. After that I would go to plan B. Kick him to the curb. Get your ducks lined up so you are ready to go. Make sure you have proof of his infidelity (for divorce proceedings if it goes that far). Plan A only works 15% of the time, so plan B is usually necessary. Show him a good Christmas and meet his ENs and then, boom leave your plan B letter for him. This usually makes WS crack.

As for last night, I would calmly let him know that you know what he did. Don't cry or get too emotional. Just use Orchid's reverse babble.

You: I know where you were last night, so don't lie about it.

WH: Are you spying on me? What is wrong with you?

You: I wouldn't need to if my husband wasn't ****ing another woman and lying about it.

This will let him know that you know. It will put additional pressure on him and on his relationship with the OW. Also, what was the response from your WH's employer? Won't they do something about this relationship? I thought you had exposed to them. What about his family? What are they saying?

Hi Marsh:

Thank you for your post. I appreciate you sharing what Ark has to say about Plan A. What do you think about what moveforward says? I see where she is coming from. I do feel like I am just letting him get away with this. If I continue to let him get away with seeing the OW whenever he wants then he has no reason to stop. Like Ark says, I don't want to talk about relationships, but what do I do when I know he lied to me..when he says he's going into the office and that's not where he goes. How do I handle things like that? Do I confront him with his lies?

Please advise.

IP...

It is perfectly acceptable as well as important to let the WS know that you know the score...You don't yell, scream or cry when communicating it...nor do you even have to state how you know what you know, only that you know...A simple statement to your husband along the lines of "I know that you were at OW's house last night, and that is hurtful and unacceptable behavior to me" will suffice...Leave it at that. Remember that you don't have to prove to him something that he already knows to be true...

(((((in_pain)))))

Mrs. W

Thank you Jim:

I appreciate your advice on how to handle last night. That's where I am at a loss. I don't want him to think he is pulling one over on me. I don't want him to think he can get away with lying to me all the time.

I do have proof of his infidelity. My friend (and co-worker of theirs) found a letter in my H desk from the OW that leaves no question of what was going on. That's how my fears were confirmed. She made a copy of that letter and has it. I don't have it because I wasn't ready to see it. She said she will give it to me whenever I am ready.

I did go see a lawyer. I went to see her because she is the best in the area. She is known to be a baracuda (many have called her that) and I wanted to make sure my H couldn't get her. So, now that I already talked to her, my husband can't get her.

Plan B scares me a lot because I think once we separate, we won't have a chance. I think our marriage will be over if we separate. Also, my life will change a great deal. I am a stay at home mom (our son will be 2 in January). I love staying at home with him. Even with child support and alimony, I won't be able to stay in our home. I will have to get a job and find a new place to live. I know it's been done before, but I don't know that I'm ready for it. I don't know if I can handle that right now.

I did expose to his family. His mom, brother and sister in law. His mother is mad at me and won't talk to me. I'm devastated over that. I thought we had a really good relationship. I was always thankful that I got along so well with my mother in law. She has completely turned her back on me and sent me a really nasty e-mail. I think I posted it in my thread. I didn't hear from my BIL or SIL. I think telling his family was useless. I don't think it helped me at all. In fact, it probably hurt me.

I did expose to his boss as well. I didn't hear anything back from him. When my H blew up at me that morning, he said he did have a talk with his boss and he could get fired, so he told me to go start looking for a f*&$#%ing job. What he doesn't realize is that he could get fired from his job because of what he did, not because his boss knows about it. Just like the OW parents are mad at her for what she did not because I told them. It's interesting how they blame everyone but themselves. I did e-mail their boss again last night. I'm hoping to hear from him. I also e-mailed their corporate office about it. I'm hoping to hear back from them as well.

So, I'm not getting a whole lot of help from the exposure. I know my H isn't happy about people knowing at work and I'm sure he's uncomfortable. He was always very well liked in the office and now he knows he's not liked, so that bothers him.

I just feel so down. I need some encouragement and guidance, I guess.

Question for all: did your family think you were crazy when you were doing Plan A? Did your friends and family not understand this method at all? I think people think I'm crazy for being nice to him after all he has done to hurt me.

I don't think you should CONFRONT him.

I think you should do more of what Jim suggested.

Simply state what you know and walk away.

You don't want to engage in fighting w/ him, however, letting him know you know what he's doing is important for both of you.

For example, if he says he's going to the office tonight...you can say...

You: Which office, Dear?

WH: Huh?

You: Do you mean your actual office or the OW's home you called the office last night?

Then walk away.

You don't want to fight w/ him.

You just want to let him know, you know he's cheating AND lying to you.

You have no control over what he does, but by letting him know he's not fooling you, you will take some of the fizzle out of his sleazy A.

And when you do NOT beg, plead, or cry about his choices anymore, you are going to throw him off balance.

WS like their BS miserable..it helps them to justify their continued A.


~ Marsh

Thank you Mrs. W., I appreciate the advice more than you know. I agree, I need to tell him that I know so he doesn't think he can constantly get away with lying to me. Thank you for helping me with what to say. I know he's going to know I drove by there because I've done it in the past, but that doesn't matter.

I just don't want things to be uncomfortable at home, or more uncomfortable than they already are. By bringing that up, it's going to cause tension. I guess that's what stops me from sticking up for myself. I'm trying so hard to focus on a positive environment that I am taking it too far maybe. I don't want to bring anything negative into the environment. But, at the same time, he needs to know he is hurting me and being disrespectful.

Oh, I feel like I'm all over the place with this!

In pain,

I don't think your marriage is over if you separate. It seems to me that your WH is a "cake-eater" that wants both of you (her to meet his ENs that were not being met and you to take care of the children and the household). When you go to plan B, it will deprive him of being able to have both and hopefully his family means enough to him that he comes back. Usually for cake-eaters, they come back shortly after plan B. I look at it this way. If he was going to leave you, he would have by now. My WW did not end contact until I was kicking her out and cutting her off. Sometimes it takes a traumatic event to snap them out of the fog.

Keep attempting to contact his work and get HR involved. If they don't fire one or the other, they usually put pressure on the workers to steer clear of each other. Nothing like a friendly little chat with your bosses's boss firmly telling you that it is inappropriate to get your attention.

I basically stopped talking to my own parents through plan A because they weren't supportive of me trying to save the marriage. They saw how much pain I was in, and just wanted me to stop hurting. The only person who I got any support from was my WW's sister, and even she said that she didn't understand why I wanted to stay with her sister from time to time.

Your situation is not hopeless. Keep your chin up. Continue to with Plan A, all the while getting ready for Plam B, and leave it in God's hands. He'll take care of you if you give yourself to Him.

Thank you Marsh; that really helps (and it's even a little humorous, in a weird kind of way!)

Thank you so much Jim. I hope you are right. I hope my situation isn't hopeless. If I do go ahead with Plan B, I hope my marriage will not end. It's so scary. I hope he comes back to me; I hope and pray about that everyday. Unfortunately, I think I will have to go to Plan B eventually because I just don't see him changing his actions any time soon. And as for the OW, I can't believe she could even show her face at work. If I were her (thank God I am not her and have much more morals than she does), I would never show my face in there again. I think I would have given my resignation to my boss over the phone. It's strange, but I feel embarrassed when I see people my H works with, and I didn't even do anything wrong. I feel ashamed because I know they know what's been going on and I have a hard time looking at them in the face. How in the world does she do it? The OW walks around the office with her head held high; how is that even possible after what she did? I just don't understand it. So, that just goes to show me that she isn't going anywhere. If the shame didn't make her leave, nothing will because she is shameless.

He is still with me because of our son. I really think that's the only reason he didn't leave.

I miss my husband so much. I miss the way he used to look at me. I miss the way he used to talk to me. He used to be interested in what I have to say. Now, he acts like he could care less. I just don't know what to do. I hate living like this.

How can he be interested in anything else when he's strung out on his drug of choice?

Don't think you're the only thing he's ignoring lately.

He's fixated on ONE thing right now.

Don't take what he's doing personally.

It's ALL about HIM, not YOU.



Don't take on HER shame.

YOU did nothing wrong.

What are you telling yourself that makes you feel as though you've done something wrong?

OW may still be going to work, but don't kid yourself, she's getting unpleasant looks and vibes from all the respectable people who work there.

No one likes a home wrecker.

And all those looks and vibes help to tear at the A.

~ Marsh

Thanks Marsh; I hope you're right.

I've been reading a lot about affairs and how they are like a fantasy world. When my H is with the OW, they don't have any stress around them, except maybe that the affair has been exposed.

Although, I keep re-playing part of her one text message to him that I posted on here. "For the first time, I hope you leave the WH*&$!" I'm trying to read into this, I guess. This implies that they have talked about the possibility of him leaving me. I wonder if she was telling him not to leave me before? Oh, I could drive myself crazy thinking about this.

I forwarded the text messages to my e-mail. I'm going to print them out and include them in my letter to her parents. That way they can see what a nice mouth their daughter has too. I'm sure they have never heard her curse before...since she is so perfect. I'm also going to include any e-mail correspondence that me and the OW had. There isn't much, but I'm going to share it anyway. I have to go somewhere to use a printer though; we don't have a printer for our computer.

Thanks for your response and all of your help and support.

She was lying through her teeth when she wrote that e-mail.

She has always wanted your WH to leave you.

If she said otherwise, she was just pretending to mean it.

It's just that when she got that unpleasant phone call from her parents after you exposed, she believed it gave her permission to admit to it.

~ Marsh

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Might I suggest Kinko's? Office Max? I hear Staples is very nice this time of the year.

You hang in there, girl. You are stronger than you think!
Mulan

Thank you Mulan! I need to hear that!!

When is a good time to ask my WH to do the EN Questionaire or to read Surviving an Affair? He NEVER reads books. He's only read one complete book in his life. So, that would be a huge struggle for him and for me to get him to do it. But, I don't know when to introduce those things because I realize he cannot be taught right now.

Please advise.

Usually they won't touch that stuff until the affair is over. Try to answer as if you were him. You usually know what order their ENs are.

IP...

Those are things that you can just leave lying around the house...You can't get him to do anything...It will have to be his choice...

Mr. W did this with me...The affair was over...I was in withdrawal...I wanted the pain to stop and was willing to try anything to make it...So that is what caused me to choose to begin reading SAA and also an ebook that he had purchased...At that point, anything that he suggested to me would have been met with a scowl and contempt...It's ALL about choice...I pray that he begins making healthy and wise choices soon...

Mrs. W

Hey there,
How are things tonight?

Time to check in, pleae.

How did last night go?

Last night went like any other night. He got home from work a little after 7:00 (well, I sat home wondering if he really was at work that whole time or if he was with her). I had supper made on the stove. I finished feeding our son and then I sat and played with him on the floor. While my H ate, I gave our son a bath. We tried putting our son to sleep. We all sat on the couch and watched football. My H ended up falling asleep on the couch. My son got really sick (all over the place). I had to wake my H up to watch him while I cleaned everything up. Then, my H went to bed and I sat with our son.

We talk normally. We are like friends. It's just that he is SO incredibly distant. The distance seems to be getting worse and worse and I'm really terrified. It seems like he has absolutely no interest in what I have to say. I don't even know if he's listening to me. How do I reach him at this point?!?! HELP!

Just keep plan Aing. WS are always emotionally distant while they are having an A. They don't want you to get the "wrong idea," about them never leaving you. That's just how their foggy mind works. If he could be close to you while still blatantly having an affair, he would have to be a psychopath. Just keep up the good work.

Stop thinking about why your husband is so cold. That is just the way all WS's are. They turn into a different person. That will last as long as there is contact.

You have done the exposure, so give this some time. Their little fantasy has a few cracks in it now.

In the meantime, what are you doing for YOU? Don't expect your WH to help you or meet any of your needs. You are going to have to meet them yourself. Are you spending time with friends and family? Can you go to some groups with your son? Have you done some Christmas crafts with him? Decorated your home, baked cookies?

Your WH told you to go get a job. Have you considered working on your resume?

I would continue with my life, making it a good one. They usually come back to the marriage. No sense in you being miserable in the mean time.

The distant thing is an integral part ot the a. It is a symptom of the disease. I called it the chip of ice in his heart.

Remember the story of the ice queen who planted a chip of ice in a boys heart so that he would forget his family and become her slave.

This phenomenon has probably been a factor in human relationships since Adam and Eve dont worry eventually the ice melts all it takes is time and a strong dose of reality.

Okay, here is my situation in a nutshell for those of you who haven't been following so far.

My H had an affair with a friend of ours and co-worker of his. He won't have NC with her. They still talk, text each other, and meet to see each other. They both insist they are both just friends now. I've heard that for too long! Anyway....

My H and I get along fine at home; we don't fight. But, we live like friends or room mates. There is NO affection at all. We don't touch each other at all. We used to give each other a hug and a kiss before he left for work, but that has stopped. He told me when he did that, he was just going through the motions. We don't even sleep in the same bed. He is SO distant and I hate it. I hate the way he looks at me. When I talk, he seems so disinterested.

I want to hug him, I want to tell him that I love him, but I'm afraid. I'm afraid of how it will make me feel if he rejects me. For example, I e-mailed him at work this morning to see if he wanted to go pick out a Christmas tree this weekend and do some decorating. Ever since I hit "send" I've been sick to my stomach. I'm so nervous and scared that he won't e-mail me back or that he'll say no. I'm afraid to put myself out there and to suggest things because then it just upsets me. Do I sound like an idiot? Is any of this normal? I can't believe I'm afraid of my own H; a man I have been with for over half my life.

I just don't know where to turn. My counselor thinks I should try giving him some affection, slowly. Like when I walk by, touch his arm. She thinks I should hug him. I'm just so afraid. How do I get past this.

I was reading Maybe2Late's thread and there was a lot of things in his thread that I would love to share with my husband. I think someone said that his W couldn't feel love for him because she wasn't showing any affection.

I just feel like we are getting further and further apart. By us showing no affection at all, it seems like it's just making him further away from me.

I NEED HELP ON HOW TO DEAL WITH THIS!!!!!!!

I would love for you to share your stories with me as well as some advise. I would like to hear "a day in the life" story. I guess how you handled your WS day to day, how you acted, etc..

Is it okay to tell them that you love them every once in a while. I know you're not supposed to all the time. I was thinking about e-mailing him how I felt. I know you're not supposed to talk about relationships at all, but I feel like we do need to talk. I feel like we need to communicate. We don't discuss the problems between us at all. I just don't know what to do. I'm at a loss.

ANY HELP WOULD BE GREAT. I'M FEELING VERY DOWN AND LOST!!

Unfortunately, he's going to continue to remain distant as long as he has contact with this woman. He's still in the affair. Continue with Plan A, and get ready for Plan B after the holidays. Also, you need to keep trying to get them separated. What have you heard back from HR? You might ask an attorney to see what legal recourse you could have (as far as harassment in the workplace). Have you talked to her parents. I know you sent them a letter. I might follow it up with a phone call. Keep putting pressure on the affair while putting on a good face when you are with your WH and try to meet whatever ENs he will let you (except SF, he needs to be tested before you do that). Are you on some ADs? You also need to be spending time with family and friends to give you support. Things will not get better as long as he is involved with the OW. It looks like you will have to go to Plan B to break you WH of his addiction.

Plan A is about making positive changes in yourself, and getting your WS to notice. You are doing a great job with plan A. WS generally notice, but do not care because they are getting their ENs met by another person. Plan A only works 15% of the time. Plan A lets the WS know what changes the BS has made and what they will be missing out on when plan B is implemented. Start getting ready for Plan B.

IP,

Here's a great post written by a poster named Ark, about how to work a good Plan A...

Plan A is ALL about the assumption that the WS is still in the affair or in contact...
this is your map to navigating those treacherous waters...

it also is your big moment to diffuse all the excuses WS are prone to use to justify their behavior and choices....

and more you can diffuse their blame...

the bs is "always depressed"
the bs "always wants to talk about relationships"
the bs "is controlling"
the bs "yells all the time"
etc....

the more you remove those things...and the more you remove yourself from any powerstruggles of insanse things...

he said she said..
etc...
the more your disengage from arguements..again the more they have look at their own actions and choices....

here's what I told familymatters..One of the biggest mistakes that people make in plan A is that they begin to meet their spouses needs....and still hold on to great expectations of reward and reinforcement from their spouse....

plan a is ALL about learning to give and do for a bit with NO expectation of ANYTHING in return...

the giving of self and gifts with no strings attached....

I have quoted the silly add campaign for some perfume in the 70's here before...but I think it fits....

It went like this ...

"if you want to get someones attention...
whisper."..

plan a is like a whisper of behaviors and actions...
plan a should not be huge demonstrative expressions of love and romance...

WS are incapable of accepting those things...
part of that is that their actions at the time of continuing an affair are NOT loving and lovable...
and they KNOW it..
sometimes they know it better than their BS...who still want to use words like love to them...

so they get resentful
or shut down
or depressed..
or it solidifies their belief that they are so "bad" or so far gone...it feeds into their excuse and defense of unworthiness...

plan a is about filling the home with love and light in other ways...

it about an upbeat environment without the deep doom cloud hanging overhead..

it is about a home filled with children's activities and joy when applicable and it is about inviting and drawing the wS into those times and activities....

and even when they refuse to come in to the joy...the joy goes on without them...

BS that do a good plan a...say they feel like their WS didn't notice..or only was receptive now and then...and then their involvement and particpation increased...

WS that were handed a good plan a...say they watched and noticed EVERYTHING...EVERYTHING....even when the bS thought they didn't notice a thing....

WS are in great turmoil...and human nature is in conflict to take ALWAYS the path of the least resistance.....

the path of least resistance...is withdrawal and wallowing in self loathing and pity..

the path of least resistance is the OP..for they can not judge and force the WS to see their own actions...because they are as guilty as the other....

so plan A'rs.....need to stop ALL relationship talk..
all talk of love...

you do things that are subtle...
like put a CD in that the WS likes...and just enjoy if yourself...and if they enjoy it also...so be it..
even better yet when it is a blast from the past CD...one that speaks of a history...without blatant insistance that the wS remember this or that....

just history...

the person in plan A...needs to be upbeat and charming...they need to see that the BS is capable of fun and joy...because if all they ever see is a BS lost in the pain..then it will solidify their belief that the pain the WS has caused will never go away...and no one can stand to see the pain they have inflicted day after day...(unless psychotic or sadistic)

the person in plan a needs to engage family and friends in fun activites always always always inviting the wS to join in...
they need to see that things can and could be normal again....

plan a can be leaving a love note...but more impressive a joke...
buy an old farside book and make copies of the really really funny ones....
or the old calvin and hobbs.......
and leave those posted about...
WS seek false joy and laughter....
bring them back to real laughter.....

plan a'rs need to learn to babble back to the insanity that Ws say..and give the babble no leverage or "to die for importance"....

plan a'rs need a time limit of doing plan a with a concrete plan when to go to plan b..
the better the plan b..the better the reality of the consequances of plan b...

make plans to things the wS likes to do..
baseball games..
movies
etc..
and when they dont' want to go..
still go and do them..
be up up up up beat...

draw them to you and your home like a moth to a flame...

work on yourself
find an outside interest that gives you some relief ..

expect nothing nothing nothing from the Ws within a limited time period and free yourself in to the ability to give and do for your spouse better than you ever had....

WS are not used to getting thing with no strings attached....
it will confuse and baffle them...but when they try to use the old "your pressuring me excuse"..it will fall on their empty ears..cause they know that has not been the case..

take them a coffee expresso piled high with whip cream...at work or bring it home to them...and leave it for them..
don't badger them to thank you
don't badger them to tell you how much they liked it..
lay it at their feet and walk away whistling...
find the joy in the act of giving and doing and not in the receptiveness....

hard hard hard hard it is......
but set the time frame and go for it....
anyone can do anything for six weeks..
(except ATKINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! )

and pray for Gods Grace to enter your heart and home...
pray for serenity...
make you house the home where you and the kids and WS would want to be....


become strong...
become confident
become engaging and charming...

realize that YOU the BS are not lovable or desirable..based on your spouses giving or taking of love...
that you stand alone in this world..
lovabe and desirable...inspite of your spouses...


that's why plan A is all about each and every encounter and glimpse in to you and your home life being as engaging and attractive.....


plan a is all about doing what you can to end an affair....
plan a is built on the presumption that they are in contact...
that's why your contact needs to be better and with more value and depth....

this does not mean that you don't set boundaries on what you will tolerate in your life..

you will not "babysit" the kids so she can go with the OP...

you don't condone any contact..
but you don't powerstruggle it either...


if you think your spouse is going to go out with op don't make it easy for them..don't watch the kids...make plans first...and leave him or her with the kids...etc

hope this helps some..
ark”



Please start doing things for YOU.

BECOME more independent.

If he doesn't reply to your e-mail or says no to you, then YOU go get the tree yourself.


~ Marsh

in pain,
I don't think I posted to you, I saw a post you made on M2L's thread so I came to visit. I don't know your whole story but read your last post. It is something I could have written 2 years ago. Except my FWH didn't work w/ OW she was a family friend and they served on the same committee.

Plan A, Plan A and then Plan B. Plan A is tough but it is for you as much as it is for WH. Plan A is being the best wife/person YOU think you should be. Its not about being a doormat or a pushover. You emailed him about going to get a Christmas tree. If he doesn't respond or declines the invite...GO ANYWAY>>>make it special for you and the little one.

When my H was in the midst of A or even contact w/ OW...he wanted nothing from me. He didn't want to be seen in public w/ me. He barely talked to me...his eyes were dead and he treated me like a piece of furniture. He noticed the changes I made in plan A he just didn't believe they were sincere.

My best advice for plan A is don't jump at his every whim. Don't push affection (which was very hard for me)I was use to the daily kiss and hug. When I asked for a hug it was a halfhearted one armed hug...which felt like more rejection then no hug at all.

He is a least talking to you. Keep the conversation light, but flirty at times.Compliment him in small doses."That shirt looks nice on you." Ask him out if he doesn't go you should still go. If he is late for dinner eat without him. Put music on, play w/ your son, take care of yourself. If you do not value yourself he won't value you either. (lesson I learned)

Get ready for plan B. Get your ducks in a row. A good plan B needs a good plan A.

I'll try to keep up and chime in now and then. Hang in there this will get better. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

ETA:
I just saw marsh's post from ark^^ she is great with plan A stuff...search for posts about BS being a lighthouse for WS.

Hi InP

A day in the life of the BS. Me a few months ago:

I got nothing from my ww and it would drive me nuts that I was doing all I could to make changes by me and for me and got NOTHING bad from her. It went like this for a while. I cried without her around and I vented here, but I stuck to plan A. If I ended up with my wife or not, I was going to be a better me.

We lived like roommates also. Don't try to do too much for your H, it puts pressure on him that he can't take right now. INP, your H is hurt too by this. I told my wife that I felt she had it worse than I did because she lost her "love"(OM) and the feelings for her H. I lost just my wife. She was stunned that I could feel like that for her. Just be a loving wife as best you can. This A/talking with OW won't last - it can't you destroyed their fantasy world.

InPain - my wife told me yestday that because the OM has never called to tell me (M2L) sorry that she feels like he is still living in a (GET THIS) FANTASY WORLD. Her words have echoed so many peoples here it's scary!!!

This is new for you and it feels hard to keep going, I know. You have to for you and your son. My wife told me "we are over, done, never to be and M2L you don't get it we are done for good." Now she doesn't want to hear those words.

Please keep reading here on MB and keep in Plan A and believe in yourself - it DOES pay off.

M2L

Oh, what a horrible night. I haven't slept at all. My H told me he was leaving and we cannot work on the marriage. He told me that it was the last straw for me to call the OW's parents. He said that told him that I was giving up. Oh, I cannot even remember what else was said.

He said we're doing Christmas separate and he didn't want to decorate the house with me or get a tree. I told him I was going to get a tree anyway. I'm getting a tree and decorating for our son.

After talking with him for awhile, he said he would get a tree on Sunday and decorate it with us if I wanted to wait for him. He said he is only doing it for our son though. He said he doesn't want to give me false hope. He's only doing it for him. I don't know if I want to wait for him or not. Maybe I should just do it on Saturday with my son. I'll need help though, I can't get it in the stand by myself. Oh, I don't know what to do. I'm at a loss.

I told him I called the OW's parents to try and break up the affair. He said the affair was over and I said even if the physical affair is over there is still and EA going on. He didn't see it that way. When he was first confronted about the affair (October 10th - our anniversary), he said he would work on the M, but he wouldn't stop being her friend. I told him that it doesn't work that way. Tonight, he brought that up again. He said I just didn't listen to him - that he told me he wasn't going to stop being friends with her. I told him he doesn't listen to me. I told him it can't work that way. Our marriage can't work as long as she is still in the picture. I told him there are 2 people in a marriage, not 3.

He insists she is not the problem for us. He's said that all along. I said, she may not be part of the original problems we had, but she certainly became a problem. He said the only reason he slept with her is because of the problems we had. I can agree with that. I screwed up really bad in my marriage. I certainly didn't meet his EN. I know that now. I learned a lot about relationships over the last couple of weeks. I know I made a ton of mistakes - some big ones.

When we were fist married (about 7 or 7 1/2 years ago), I got physical with a male friend of mine. I didn't sleep with him and it only happened once. I'm not condoning it; it was wrong. It was the biggest mistake of my life and I have hated myself for it ever since. I haven't seen that person in about 6 years and I broke all contact with him after that happened. Well, I had no reason to think that my husband wasn't over that. I thought we were past it and it was behind us. Apparently not. I ruined my marriage. I made some major mistakes and I think I've lost him.

I'm sorry, I'm rambling. I haven't slept.

Any help would be more than appreciated.

He hasn't said a thing any WS hasn't said. Just be calm. The exposure will bring great pressure to the affair. They all say exposure is the end. Don't listen to what your alien husband says - only what he does.

Get your doctor to give you some AD's and something to help you sleep. You can get through this.

Stand firm, you did the right thing. Your H was in the wrong and he's doing his best to avoid facing his own failures.

InPain,

I hope you read ChaCha's post and all the others, it's all true.

ChaCha said
In fact, my husband treated me like an inconvenient and ugly piece of furniture. Of course, I was "in the way" of his conscience. He wanted to feel good but he couldn't feel good about what he was doing because of me. Believe me when I say EXPOSURE is best to stop and drop the Affair dead.

They all kick and scream over it but one day he will be grateful you fought for him. But your best plan is PLAN A all the Way. Pull yourself together. There's a great thread called "Need Advice: is saving this M just a fantasy?" posted by LilSis with successful plan A stuff in it. Read that. Read B0bPure*'s post called "**** Bob's Newly Betrayed Spouse MB Toolkit **** "

And as ChaCha said, Look For Posts by Ark^^!

The first post I ever read here was one by SPIDER SLAYER on one of Ark^^'s old threads. I knew after reading that, that I had come to the right place.

I've posted the links below the rest of what ChaCha said, it's worth repeating.

ChaCha said:

Bob's Newly Betrayed Spouse MB Toolkit

plan a tips and musings...get grounded here

LilSis's thread: is saving this M just a fantasy?

InPain:
Yours is one of the theads I've been following for the past month or so before I finally got up the courage to register and ask for help and advice from all the pros here. I truly hope to get to the point someday when I can offer help and advice to people like you and I, but I'm not even close. Believe me, I've screwed up much worse than you have. I've actually been sort of envious of you (I know that sounds really weird) because your WH is actually still at home and you can have regular contact with him. My WH left five months ago. You've been doing great...but I know exactly the pain you feel and how very hard it is.

All I can say is hang in there. I know it may be hard to ask for help from your family and friends (especially those times when you are up at 3 a.m., feeling desperately alone and defeated), but rest assured that you have friends and supporters here, 24/7. Keep using them, just as you have been. You can count on these people to keep you afloat. You are not alone.

10Swords was right; read my thread...the post from Resilient is excellent. That story really gave me a lot of insight.

There's nothing else I can say, but I wish I could help. Just please know that you are not alone, and my heart goes out to you.

LilSis

IP,
Don't give up. He is following the script.

You said your counselor said you are getting good advice here, right?

So, you must be.

You have really caused some cracks in the bright and shining affair fantasy. Good for you.

Start gettting your ducks in a row for plan B. Make sure you have done the best Plan A possible.

You and the little one need to go on and have the best possible holiday season. Do everything you usually do. Invite WS, but if he declines, go on and do it anyway.

I really think you need to make a phone call to the boss today. Ask them what they plan to do about this.

Hang in there.

Thank you ALL SO MUCH:

I appreciate your kind words and encouragement. Boy, do I need it. Unfortunately, I will need to make this short. My almost 2 year old son doesn't want me at the computer right now. He's making it a little difficult to type. I will come back later and respond to all of you when he falls asleep.

I thought of some more things this morning.

It was very hard to talk to him without "begging". I just REALLY want him to work on the marriage - more than anything. I just kept telling myself "don't sound desparate, don't beg", but I don't know if I succeeded or not.

I said why don't you want to try and work on our marriage for our son? He said he didn't want to stay together just for our son. I agreed, but I told him that's not what I asked him. I asked why don't you want to TRY for our son. He said he's done trying. He never got over what I did 7 years ago and he feels that he has tried for 7 years and he's done trying.

He said he's afraid to open his heart up to me again.

I asked him to do MC with me and he said no. We are going to IC though, so that's better than nothing.

He also said that I called the OW's parents to get rid of her so he would come back by default. I said no, I called them bec. I wanted to work on our marriage. I wanted to get rid of her so you (H) could focus on our marriage and that there's 2 in a marriage and not 3.

He also said that he's only been here as long as he has because of our son. What doesn't make sense to me is why stay here just for our son, but not TRY for our son. He's been here for months just for our son and doing nothing. That doesn't make any sense to me.

He said that the OW was actually thinking about leaving town. That would be SO wonderful, but I'm not getting my hopes up. When I told him why I called her parents, he said, "well, she might be leaving and I'm leaving here, so there you go". He was so cold.

Also, he did say that he was thinking about trying to work on the marriage, but then I called the OW's parents. He said he didn't tell me that bec. he didn't want to give me false hope. He said he even thought about trying after I called her parents, but then after he thought about it some more he decided not to. I couldn't believe he said that. That was part of the script for sure. But, he just doesn't get it.

I dont' know what I'm going to do if he leaves. I really feel that it's going to be "out of sight, out of mind". I'm so terrified.

I still don't know if what I did was right.

Like I said, I want to spend more time on here when my son falls asleep and respond to some of your posts. I appreciate all of you. Please keep checking in on me and giving me advice.

I sure hope I'm doing the right thing.

It's so hard because I really want to e-mail him today and "talk" to him, but I don't want to sound like I'm begging. I wish he would read "Surviving an Affair" or at least the first couple of chapters.

I don't know, I was thinking of writing something like this:

H:

I love you; I love you so much. I am not giving up on us. Please give us one more chance. I know you first said that you wanted to work on the marriage, but you wanted to remain friends with her. Not only was this hurtful to hear, but it's impossible. You are asking to do the impossible. You can't work on your marriage while having the person that you had an affair with in your life. That's like saying you want to go to the moon, but you don't want to ride a spaceship. But, you still expect to go to the moon. That is an impossible thing. This is such a dumb example, but it's all I could think of. I'm just trying to make you understand that you can't see her because it's impossible, not because I want to make you miserable.

Please open your heart to me one more time. Please don't be afraid of getting hurt again. I would NEVER hurt you like I did 7 years ago. I would never even come close to hurting you like that again, I promise. I have learned a lot about relationships and I just hope you understand that I don't want the marriage that we had either. I want to make it better. I want to make it the best marriage it could ever be. I think that's possible. I'm not saying it's going to be easy, it's not. It's going to be a lot of hard work for both of us. That's something we are both guilty of, I don't think we worked on our marriage on a daily basis. We can do this. We've invested so much time into ourselves. Please don't throw in the towel on us. Please try for ______________(DS) and for us. We've meant too much to each other not to give it everything that WE have. We can be great together - we've already proved that once. We can be even better with some work.


I don't know. What do you think of that? Help!? I feel like I need to reach out in some way to him today.

So much for being short. My son is having a fit!

Thank you and I'll check back later.

In P - please read the end of my post from yesterday. I listed a few things that my FWW has said to me in the past and now how she feels.

Your sitch is no different than others here and there is a path out of this.


M2L

IP,

Quit trying to reason w/ him.

He's full of crap when he tells you that it was your exposing to the OW mother that convinced him to give up on your M....all of what he's telling you in hog wash!

Stop listening to him.

It's NOT your fault that he's having an A.

No marriage is ever perfect.

If he was soooooo unhappy w/ you, he should have D you, instead he chose to have an A.

Well, you have choices too.

You can sit there and worry about what may happen tomorrow or you can make TODAY count!

Get the Christmas tree yourself.

Try to put it in the stand yourself.

I bet you CAN do it!

If you have trouble, call a neighbor, a friend, or a family member to give you a hand.

You've got to begin to show yourself that no matter what the future holds you will be OK.

You will make it.

~ Marsh

Hi in pain-

I was kind of like your husband. My husband cheated on me, then years later I cheated on him. I don't reccommend that!! But I know where he's coming from.

You are doing all the right things- don't stop and don't give up. It took 4 years for me to see that my husband is sincerely a different man now and our marriage is worth recovering.

I wanted to comment on your proposed letter to your husband where you state:


It will sound better and more sincere if you can identify what caused your own affair to happen in the first place and if you can specifically list what you have changed about yourself to prevent any future affairs. Simply saying "I changed" and "I promise" are vague and he might not think you are being genuine. If you can list specifics he might respond better (although it might not be obvious to you- these things take a lot of time).

Hang in there!!

IP,

I have a couple of points for you.

First, don't send him that email. That comes across as begging. That is not part of plan A. He knows you are trying to save the marriage. He knows all of what you put on the email. You will just push him away more.

Secondly, I think this affair is in death throws right now. Your exposure to OW's parents seems to have struck a chord. Otherwise, you WH wouldn't complain about it so much. The OW might move now because of the pressure you put on the affair. He feels like he is losing her, and he is taking it out on you. I'm sure he is moving out to show her, "see, it's over between me and IP, we can still be "friends," please don't leave." He wants to keep both. Right now you are a "sure thing" and he is losing the OW. Don't be such a "sure thing" (like sending the email) and he might be afraid to lose you as well. Just act like you are moving on with your life with or without him.

THE MORE THE WS THROWS A FIT AND MAKES THREATS, THE MORE EFFECTIVE EXPOSURE WAS AT ENDING THE AFFAIR. THE LOUDER THE WS GETS, THE CLOSER TO THE END OF THE AFFAIR!

You are winning the war, IP. Keep the faith.

I second Jim's post - don't send the email.

IP... you have to stop beating yourself up and worrying about what the future holds. Today is the tomorrow that you worried about yesterday. Let the future take care of itself by making good decisions as to how to lead YOUR life today.
In reality, your H has no justification for having his A. But he does have a reason for not wanting to stay married to you. As you have found out, an A causes a lot of damage and for some people that NEVER goes away. If he is unable to open his heart to you again, it will be best for you two to go your seperate ways. I do not condone your H's affair... but I understand it in a way (that is if he is being honest and is afraid to be close to you). There are some people that cannot survive an A in a healthy fashion.... they would be better off moving on. If your H is one of those people, you need to let him go.... but he needs to be honest with you.
I would sit him down and ask him some questions...
do you really feel that after what happened 7 years ago that you cannot be close to me?
are you really ready to let go of the marriage as a result of that... or is it a matter of you not having the skill set to move beyond that?

*** have you EVER blamed you ex for what you did 7 years ago? If you got physical with this person... you had sex... it may not have been intercourse... but it was sex.

It's time for you to take control of what you can fix. Stop focusing so much on him and realize that while you want to work on your M and save your family... that you will be okay if it ends. You need open and honest answers from your H and should act accordingly based on those answers. If he truly wants out because he cannot love and trust in you because of what happened 7 years ago... I say that you two let each other go.

You need to find yourself in all of this... your inner strength... the part of you that will survive no matter what tomorrow brings. I hope that you both find the strength to save your marriage... but if not... then the strength to save yourselves.

Good call, M2L. I'll tell you what I tell my WW, "I'm always right." Wait, maybe that is why I am posting here?

Based on you saying you got physical with a male friend 7 years ago, I am confused by this statement. You also have waited a long time before exposing this here and seem to downplay its significance. What did you do with this "friend?" Do you EVER have any communication with this "friend?" Have you been 100% honest with your husband about your actions?

There are a lot of questions to be answered about your past acts that will make giving you advice as to how to proceed that much easier.

She said she broke off all contact with the OM and told her WH, but her WH is now using it as justification for his own affair.

IP, this is likely just another excuse to justify his A, and likely has nothing to do with your current situation, so I wouldn't dwell on it.

This advice is dead on.

Do NOT send that email. It really does sound pathetic and begging, even though I know you don't mean it that way. Do Not Send It!

Yes, he is screaming because what you did WORKED.

And they ALL say stuff like, "I was going to work on the marriage but I won't now that you've exposed the affair blah blah blah." It's meant to threaten and bully you. Don't let it.

He is punishing you by ignoring you at Christmas. Don't fall for this, either. He WANTS you to be upset and frantic so he knows he's still running the show and can do what he wants. If you can stay calm and collected (at least in front of him,) it will totally blow what's left of his mind.

Don't give up. Stop letting him frighten you. He's counting on it.
Mulan

Do I get my "MB pro" card in the mail now?

I like your previous advice about not sending the email too Jim but I have a different opinion about this:



I do think it is relevant. She has the opportunity to learn a lot about marriage, forgiveness, and trust if she thinks about her own past in the context of her husband's present affair.

IP,
I agree that he is using this to jusity his affair. You did everything right in coming clean and never having contact again.

It as been 7 years- you two had been building a good marriage. You had gone through a lot with the pregnancies, etc.

If this was a revenge affair, it would probably have happened much earlier.

Had this even come up in your counseling sessions?

I think he is just digging and digging trying to put the blame of the affair on you.

DO NOT accept that.

First, another NO WAY!! on that note. For crying out loud that's not going to do anything but convince him he's in the right, while you bend over.

Begging is not attractive ever.

Second, if this was due to what you did back then, he sure waited too long to act on it. I'm not buying. He's justifying and you're allowing it.

He loved you enough to continue in the marriage for YEARS and even have a child with you, after that episode. All tells me it may have contributed to the poor state of your marriage but did not give him a valid reason to enter into the Affair.

Turn the tables like this: I know that you forgave me and stayed with me and we continued our marriage after that horrible mistake I made, and I'm willing to do the same for you now.

IP STOP PLAYING THE VICTIM! It's not necessary and it will hurt your cause. You have years of good behavior after what you did. Count on that, because it Does Count!

PLAN A! PLAN A! PLAN A!

That means quit begging, adopt a cheerful demeanor, be a beautiful good wife, be a Lighthouse! Somewhere around here is a list of good concrete examples of behaviors that will help, like "Don't wallow in your pain, Exercise, Pamper yourself, Get out and have fun..." something like that. Does anyone have that list?


I cannot agree more!

In Pain,
I have posted to you before about your in-laws and I have been following your story and all the good advice given here. I just wanted to put in my agreement with the others not to send the e-mail. You are giving him more justification for his own bad behavior besides sounding deperate (I know that is how you feel, though).

I just wanted to point out that whatever you did before with this OM 7 years ago doesn't justify what he is (and has been) doing to you for quite awhile. I know finding this out for your H was very painful......we all know that. But the cruel way your H has been treating you, on TOP of his relationship with OW is beyond justification. Don't keep pointing out how much pain you caused him and taking blame for how he is treating you now.

I am generally a big blame taker (working on that!) and I think I know how you feel, but it doesn't mean anything to your H! It didn't to mine either. He wasn't really even thinking about me. He was thinking about himself and OW's feelings, even when he had decided to stay with me.....her feelings came first for a long time. He is NOT hearing you, so don't degrade yourself and take responsibility for things that are not yours to take. I still cringe and some of the things I said/did to try and please my unpleasable H when he was still fence sitting.

If he was thinking about your son and his well-being, at all, he would be home WORKING on his marriage........not just taking up space and hurting you with his cruel words. He is only thinking about himself.

Keep doing plan A for a little while longer, but not crawling and giving away your dignity. I know you want to save your marriage and it is possible. But you can't make him want the marriage. He has to be wanting it too, or recovery (false) will be so painful and damaging for you. I don't think you will really want a man that you have to make be in the marriage. You will never be able to trust him and it is so bad for your self-esteem to have a "pity husband". You deserve someone who WANTS to be there. We all do.

You have done so well to stand up to him so far. I know that is hard because it seems like it will push him away. But you must continue and stand up for yourself and your son. YOU ARE WORTH IT!

Hang in there! This is a very hard phase.

Thank you ChaCha. I'm so glad you posted to me. What you said about your H makes me feel a little better. I hope my H comes around. I hope he sees that I am sincere and that I do love him and I want our M to work. I REALLY hope he gives our marriage a chance.

Did your H ever tell you what made him change his mind/feelings toward you? How long did it take?

It sounds like your situation was very similar to mine; please post whenever you can.

Thank you.

M2L: Thank you so much for posting to me. I sure hope you are right. I hope this A will end. It scares me because they were friends before all this happened and it just seems like they are getting closer and closer.

What made your W so angry at the OM? I noticed those statements on your thread too. What made her have change of heart about him? Did she ever tell you?

I really hope my H will realize what he is walking out on. I am willing to do whatever it takes to make my M work. I love him so much.

I also read in your thread that you were ready to go on living without your wife. I am nowhere near that point. I am still feeling like I can't live without him. I just don't know what I'll do if he leaves. I really think that will be it for us. I'm so terrified. I'm trying to stay strong, but I don't feel strong at all.

I really want to reach out to him some how.

bigkahuna: Thanks, I'm trying to stay calm. I feel so unsure of myself and what I am doing. I am on AD's. I can't imagine what I would be like without them.

10Swords: THank you. I appreciate what you said in your post. I actually did read some of "Need Advice: is saving this M just a fantasy?" by LilSis. I actually wanted to post to her, but all of this craziness happened. Thank you for the links.

LilSis: Thank you so much for posting. When you're new on the board, it's so hard to respond to people. I know I feel that way because I don't even know what I'm doing, so I don't feel like I can help others yet. I'm not even confident that I'm doing the right thing, obviously. I'm so glad you were following my thread. I hope you continue to do so and let me know what you think. Just to know you're out there cheering me on and supporting me makes such a difference. I know what you mean about my H still being home. I have been grateful for that. Although, I have been so fearful of him leaving. This is not the first time he mentioned it. I am so terrified. I'm not ready for him to leave. I don't know what I'll do if he actually leaves this time. I feel like we'll be over for sure. It will be like "out of sight, out of mind". I'm so lost. I actually did start reading your post and I wanted to post to you. But, then all of this happened and I really didn't get a chance to be on MB much. I'll be keeping up with you the best I can as well and I'll post to you when I can. Thanks.

moveforward: Thank you for everything. You have been so helpful to me and such a great support system. I don't know what else to say. Thanks for being there for me. You have been with me almost every day and I appreciate that more than you know.

***** Show him thru actions not words, don't come across as needy*******

Try to spend as much time together as you can without talking about your marriage or the A

M2L

M2L: Thanks again. I appreciate the support.

Marsh: Thank you for all of your encouragement since I've been posting on MB. You always say things in just the right way. I know I've made a lot of mistakes - what I did 7 years ago was a big one. But, I know I didn't meet his EN throughout the years either. I am to bleame for most of this. I am willing to take responsibility for what I have done; I just hope I can fix it. He's made mistakes too though. He didn't communicate waht he was feeling very well. I didn't know my marriage was in trouble. I didn't know we weren't past what happened. I mean, I knew we had problems; I wasn't that blind. But, I also know that all marriages have their problems. I thought our troubles were something we could always get through. I thought our relationship was strong. I thought we could always work on things and we'd be okay. I'll never be that confident again. I'm trying so hard not to reason with him. I guess I just keep trying to get him to understand and plead my case. I know that's silly; it's just so hard to stop when you're in the middle of a horrible conversation. Thank you again.

SaturnRising: I know what I did was wrong. I will always hate myself for it. I'm not even really sure what caused me to cheat. He was a friend and co-worker. He was very attractive - very much my type. I liked him for just physical reasons. I really didn't care for his personality; I was just very attracted to him. He gave me a lot of attention and he flirted with me a lot. He initiated everything with us. I never could imagine myself in a relationship with him. I knew it would never work. We hung out, but we weren't alone very often. We were always with a group. Anyway, one day we were in his car and we had been drinking and we fooled around. After that, I stopped all outside contact with him. I only talked about work when I had to, which wasn't often because he had his own sales assistant in another office about an hour and a half from where I worked, so he wasn't in my office very much. And, not long after that, he quit and started working somewhere else and I haven't seen him since. I think he still lives in the same town as me, but I haven't seen him or talked to him. So, I thought my husband forgave me (apparently not) and I thought we moved on. I don't feel my husband gave me any reason to think otherwise over the last 7 years.

I just hope we can now get passed this....

Jim: You are like a knight in shining armor! I knew everyone was going to tell me not to send that e-mail. I knew it sounded like begging. Even when I see him tonight, I don't know what I'll say to him because I don't want to sound like I'm begging him. I just really want him to come back to me and I'm afraid of sounding as desparate as I feel.

I hope you are right about the affair. I hope her parents can put the needed pressure on her. I think she is leaving next week to go home for Christmas. I wish she would stay there for good. Her parents live about 4 hours from here. He did get home from work late last night. Maybe he was with the OW and she just told him she was thinking about leaving town. Maybe that's why this conversation came up between us last night. Maybe he was just upset about her leaving town and me wanting to get rid of her. Why wouldn't I want to get rid of her? What is he thinking? What I'm afraid of is, I don't think he's worried about losing me. I don't think he cares if he loses me. I think he is telling the truth when he says he has only stayed here because of our son. I really feel like I've lost him. But, I am hoping and praying that you are right about this affair ending.

I hope I'm winning this war. If we do manage to save our marriage, all of you are invited to a great big party when we renew our wedding vows. I keep dreaming of doing that.

He's not worried about losing you because you keep telling him how much you love him and want to work on the marriage with him (with a slight hint of begging). That's where plan B comes in to play. He'll worry about losing you then.

Do you live somewhere where it is nice and sunny, and is the trip on you?

What I meant by my statement is that when we got married we were both virgins. I have never had intercourse with anyone else and neither did he until his A. He came to me and asked me if I'm ever going to be able to get over what he did because he said what he did was so much worse than what I did and he never got over what I did. He had an ongoing relationship with someone - had sex with her for months. I'm not trying to downplay what I did by any means. I know what I did was wrong. I know I hurt him deeply. I have carried my hatred for myself and my guilt around for 7 years and I will probably continue to do that. My counselor is working with me on my self-hatred issues. I'm not afraid to admit my mistakes. I haven't had communication with this person for 6 or 7 years. I explained what happened in a reply to SaturnRising. I had no reason to suspect that we weren't past what I did. When he told me he wasn't over it, I was shocked. We had 3 PLANNED pregnancies over the years. We made all kinds of plans for our future. He gave me beautiful cards with beautiful words from him written inside of them. Those are not actions of a man who wants to end his marriage.

Thanks for sticking up for me Jim!

SaturnRising: you're right. I have learned a lot about myself, relationships and marriage. That's what I'm trying to instill in my Plan A. I'm trying to show him that I have changed as a person. I want to show him that I will meet his EN in the future. That's what I was trying to tell him last night. But, again, it's hard to not try and reason with him and try and explain things. I did the best I could without trying to beg, etc...I don't know how it came across though.

What I did 7 years ago still did not give him the right to sleep with a friend of ours and continue his relationship with her. I can understand why he may have went to her (because I wasn't meeting all of his EN), but no one deserves to have their husband go sleep with another woman no matter what they did.

10Swords:

I know the e-mail sounded like begging and desparation. How do I react to him tonight? Do I try and talk to him again?

To moveforward and 10Swords: He has tried to blame everything on me. Nothing is his fault in his eyes. And the OW certainly did no wrong. I'm always the bad person. This did come up in counseling a little bit. The counselor said that we just never dealt with what happened 7 years ago. She said it was like a big elephant in the living room and we just danced around it and tried to avoid it. I think she's right. We just never really talked about it after it happened. He said he tried communicating to me and he tried working on our marriage. That's why he doesn't want to try now because he said he's tried for the last 6 years and he tired of trying. I don't doubt that he tried, but it takes 2 people to work on a marriage and when one person doesn't know what the true problem is, that's not trying. I had no reason to beleive that wasn't behind us. We actually had 3 PLANNED pregnancies. We went through HE&^ and back to have our son.

I appreciate you saying that it may have contributed to my M being rocky, but it didn't give him the right to enter into an A. I also feel that way. It took me a little while to feel that way, but I think I do now.

Thank you for the advice!

Of course not!! I'm glad you realize this. He has complete ownership over his affair- it is absolutely 100% his fault and it is his responsibility to end it and come back to your marriage. Like you did <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The point I was trying to make is that you and he have a unique perspective on infidelity, because you have both felt the guilt of being wayward and the hurt of being betrayed. It can actually be an advantage to you if you are able to see the larger picture.

The key is empathy. You have been in your husband's shoes, and he has been in yours. It is a window into his mind that few betrayed spouses get to see. So rather than ignoring what happened 7 years ago, I'd encourage you to examine it and perhaps apply what you learned to the current situation.

I know we are all on your side!! You're a lot stronger than you realize. I can see it, and so can everyone else. That's why you're getting so much support. You can do this!

LBelle:

Unfortunately, no I don't live where it's nice and sunny. I live in Pennsylvania. Nothing tropical at all. Sorry. But, I can plan a he#$ of a party! If my M can be saved, I'd be willing to put all of the trips on me!!!!

I agree with the others DO NOT send that email!!!!!!

I also felt compelled to write these wonderful profound indepth letters to WH trying to get through to him. The problem is WS understand a different language. That allows them to twist and interupt meanings to fit and justify their actions.
This is standard script for WS. Accept no blame or fault. IMHO MC while contact continues is a waste of time.

What I did....was to journal all the things I wanted to say to WH. It helped to get it out. Maybe someday I'll share all those letters w/ him. We are very early in recovery and I think it would be too painful for him right now. (He also said...I'm only here for the kids, I feel nothing for you, I care for you only because you are the mother of my children.)

EXPOSURE is essential DO NOT feel bad about exposing the A to the light of day...it will kill it! WS's do no like exposure because it takes the fun out of LA LA LAND.He will say terrible hateful things to you. Think of him as mentally ill.

Try and focus on yourself I know this is hard. If you try too hard it will push him a way....Did you ever have a kid in school that was deseparate for friends...do anything say anything to make someone like them? That is how some BS come of it is NOT attractive. Do not try to please him....you cannot. As long as he is in contact w/ OW he will not allow you to fill his LB or meet his EN. Right now he is incapable of meeting yours.

What is YOUR idea of a good wife? mother? person? friend? If you do things solely to please him it will come off as false.

If he argues w/ you that you shouldn't have told OW parents. Agree that it is a shame that so many people have been hurt by the A. He doesn't get it...he can't see it....YET. Hang in there. Keep posting.

I live in NJ very close to Philadelphia

Thank you for your support SaturnRising:

I know exactly what you mean. The fact that I did do that 7 years ago has helped me make the decision to want to work on my marriage. It has helped me in wanting to forgive him and want him back.

I just wish he would see it that way. I am willing to try and forgive him and get passed what he did because I want him to be willing to forgive me and get passed what I did. In a sense, we can relate to each other. I just can't get him to realize this. He just doesn't seem to care that he has hurt me. When I did that 7 years ago, I begged and pleaded for his forgiveness and told him how sorry I was. Instead, he is still seeing her and he tell me he's going to "hang out" with her as if he was telling me he was going to his brother's house. He says it so matter of factly, like it's no big deal. I don't understand.

Hi, IP.

There's a post somewhere around here to BS's about FEAR. I'll try to find it, I think it would be really helpful for you -- it was for me once I finally listened.

When I first came here, I felt the same way you do-- terrified of losing my H, desperate to do whatever it took to keep him and save my M. I was afraid of every step, second-guessing everything I did .... afraid to even breathe without asking everyone exactly how and when and where to do it, just in case I might do the wrong thing and 'make' him leave. Paralyzed and frantic all at once. It was awful!

I'm pretty sure it was Noodle who gave me a loving, but not very gentle smack with the 2x4 by telling me that I had already lost my H!!!

I didn't want to hear it and didn't listen for a long time. I did the grovelling, begging, just do and say whatever will make him happy, let him walk all over me as long as he stays with me thing. It worked just long enough to bring on a miserable, anxiety-filled false recovery that quickly imploded. If I can get anything at all across to you, it would be to avoid that at all costs.

Your H is already gone. This WH in front of you is NOT who you want, so there is no reason to fear losing *him*. You don't want to save an M with a 'roomate' who is so heartless and cruel and who just barely bothers to tolerate you.

When you can get that (and it's not easy to get), then you will be in that place that M2L was ... ready to go on living without this ugly alien who has taken up residence in your H's body.

And then you will be able to build up the strength and confidence and ability to do the things you need to do to attract your real H back and build a new, strong, happy M.

I finally realized that I didn't want to live in constant fear that I might "make" him walk away again if I did or said the wrong thing, or wasn't perfect, or wanted better. I finally started actually listening and learning about boundaries, how to speak my truth -- regardless of whether it was what I thought he wanted to hear, and that I could insist on the things that a good, real, strong M requires, instead of settling for whatever he'd drop to me.

It's SO hard and SO scary to get to that point, but almost every thread here illustrates that that's where you've got to come from if you want a chance to build a good M (with him or eventually with someone else). You can settle for less if you want to, but doing that just brings you in circles back to this same spot over and over.

-AmI.

Here's the Fear post ....
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...&PHPSESSID=

BTW, I don't like the title of your thread. You need to change it.

On the other hand, look at my thread. I recently updated it. My W is still wayward, but look at the difference in my reaction from the first time that I caught her buying a calling card to me suspecting that she has bought a calling card this week (pages 11 and 12). My current attitude is the attitude you need to take with your situation. Your WHs affair is on its last legs and he is lashing out and getting desparate to save it. Just keep plan Aing and get ready for plan B if necessary.

ChaCha:

At least I'm not alone in wanting to reach out to him. I just don't even know what I'm going to say to him tonight. Do you have any suggestions? I honestly don't even know how to act after last night. ????? It's going to be really hard to be upbeat, that I can say, but I don't even know what type of conversation to have with him.

We're actually not in MC. I am going to IC counseling and I really like the counselor. We went to MC back in June when he was still denying everything. I forced him to go and it turned out that we got a really bad counselor, so that just made his idea of counselors worse. After one of our conversations after I found out about the A, he agreed he needed counseling. He really became a different person when his Dad died suddenly and I think that had a lot to do with this happening. He never dealt with his Dad's death. He needs counseling for that for sure. He wanted to go to the counselor for that and to also try and figure out what he wants. We went to one session together and our counselor said that we don't qualify for her program of MC because 1)he doesn't know if he even wants to be in the M adn 2 - the big one) he won't stop having contact with the OW. My counselor said that is absolutely necessary as well. I mean, it's only common sense really.

I like the idea of the journal. I think maybe I'll do that. I just feel at such a loss sometimes. I want to reach out to him. Wow, so your husband said some very hurtful things too. I hope my husband comes around. That's all I'm hoping and praying for.

I did call the OW's parents and I did expose to everyone I can think of. I called the OW's parents the Sunday after Thanksgiving. I also have a letter written to them along with e-mails her and I exchanged and also the nasty text messages she wrote (they're in my thread). Do you think I should still send that after last night? I had every intention of sending it, but now I'm scared again. Do you think it's silly to send it after so much time has passed and after he already blew up with me about it? It just feels wrong after what happened last night. I know I need to ignore what he says, but it's so hard. He looks at me with such hurt and anger. I hate the way he looks at me. It kills me.

I live about 2 1/2 to 3 hours away from Philadelphia.

I can't believe I forgot to mention this:

He started the conversation last night by telling me what he was planning this weekend. He said he was going to go "hang out" with the OW on Saturday and then possibly go back to his Mom's house (about an hour and 10 minutes from our house). That's when he said he wasn't going to help me decorate, etc...What am I supposed to say to that!?!?!?!? He knows how much it hurts me, but he tells me like it's no big deal at all.

He also said another reason why he was staying here is because he was afraid of everyone finding out. He said since everyone knows now, he doesn't have to worry about that and he could leave. Part of that was to protect the OW's reputation I'm sure. He didn't want to hurt her by people finding out because she had such a good reputation before all of this. She was little miss goody two shoes!!! The funny part is, I wasn't even the one that told everyone in his office. They knew for a long time, he just didn't know it. I don't know how they all found out honestly, but I'm glad they did.

How am I supposed to handle tonight?

Write a Plan B letter and change the locks...IMHO...but I don't think YOU are ready for that yet...

Classic cake eater...I'm SOOO sorry that you are hurting...

Does OW belong to a church?

~ Marsh

This is Passive/Aggressive emotional abuse. That's all. He says and does stuff like this to keep you angry, helpless, raging, and on your knees. And it works, too, doesn't it?


Please don't fall for this. It's just another lie to try to make YOU take responsibility for his cruelty and emotional abuse.


Well, I personally would borrow the horse castration tools from my veterinarian and -- no, scratch that. It's not officially recognized by MB. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I think I'd spend it getting everything ready for Plan B and having as little contact with this bullying abuser as possible.
Mulan

I agree.

IP, we know you love your H, but the man who told you he was gonna hang out w/ his OW, is not your H...he is a cruel WH.

You don't want him do you?

Going to PLan B would rock his world.

He expects to keep you paralyzed w/ fear.

Then he can do as he pleases KNOWING you are sitting at home waiting for him.

Throw a monkey wrench into his world by going dark and it'll clear away most of that fog.

Pio posted this to someone in a smilar sitch as you...



~ Marsh

I agree with Rinder,

A dark plan B. Do you know what cake eating is? Your H is getting some of his needs filled by you and some by the OW. If you no longer talk to your H then the OW would have to be all things all the time for him. SHE CAN'T DO IT, she is not his wife - you are.

M2L

The fact that you never had intercourse with anyone else is most likely one of the things that hurt your H so badly. And really, there are a lot of different types of sex... and some of them are a heck of a lot more "intimate" than intercourse.
I was very supportive of you earlier int his thread... but I think you are doing your H a HUGE disservice by dismissing his feelings concerning your affair 7 years ago. Your self hatred is all about you... but it really means nothing to him. Perhaps your actions did not cause him to immediately lose a closeness to you... but if the feelings were never dealt with, this cancer would just continue to spread. Everyone here is so quick to dismiss that he may in fact be telling the truth and really doesn't want to be with you or feel close to you because of your affair. I am not surprised that you were shocked that he wasn't over that... because it happened to him. There are many FWS here that are shocked to learn their spouses still have terrible feelings about an affair. IP, you are a FWW...you have a perspective here that can help your H... but you better wake up to the reality of the situation pretty quickly. I am known here for slamming WS... and your husband is a WS.... but I can tell you that unless you two addressed your actions in a healthy way years ago, I would bet they are playing a big part in what is happening now. Your H may feel entitled to have had his A... he is wrong and I do not condone it. He may also feel entitled to leave you because of his feelings surrounding that... that is his choice to make. But unless you know that you both dealt with your A in a healthy matter, rather than just having time give a dullness to the feelings, I would suggest that you and your H need a heart to heart discussion before implementing any plan B.
Also, someone here suggested that you change the locks on your house. If you two own it jointly, that would be a big mistake as he has a legal right to come and go as he pleases until the courts say otherwise.



Perhaps you are right and perhaps you are wrong. Maybe he never found the strength to heal... maybe he didn't have a wife that was helping him heal (due to not knowing how) and maybe it just took this long for it to finally hit him that he no longer wants to be married to someone that could do those things. Some people... and hopefully your H is not one of them... do not recover from an A. You would like it if the decision was made in your time frame.. but your H has his own feelings and I suspect that if he came here it would be a lot easier to get to the bottom of what he is feeling right now.

First of all You need to Learn about Reverse BABBLE TALK. Orchid is the pro.

You need to stop talking RELATIONSHIP talk with him now. He can't hear you? He's Mentally Ill - You'll learn much more about this later but affairs actually have a physiological affect that makes the brain manufacture natural narcotics - he's under the influence of drugs.

Believe me you cannot REASON with someone on drugs or mentally ill. You're wasting your time and effort and just hurting yourself by trying.

When he says "I'm going to hang out with OW and then to his mom's.

Smile and say, Thanks for letting me know. Then change the subject to something small-talkish and pleasant.


You need to react like it's no big deal at all. He's running to her telling her what a wetblanket bring-down his wife is, (or if not he's comparing it in his mind) and she is going to be all happy to see him.

Not only that but he's BABBLING. This is simply nonsense. He can't even think straight right now. My husband says he can't even understand what the heck he was thinking!

My husband told me the biggest attraction to the ugly MOW was how her eyes lit up when she saw him. You need to fight fire with fire. You be fun and pleasant to be around and talk about the funny things the kids did.

[color:"red"]Orchid has said: "U R trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip. That is what the WS is a turnip. NO heart and not feelings. Notice how it is all about him and his feelings instead of u and your family. That is why you need to NOT discuss these things with him."[/color]


Why is it even good for you and the children for a WS to be in the home? While he's carrying on the affair he doesn't deserve to live in the home with your children. I would ignore that if I didn't say the obvious: "Yes the Truth is now out."

For tonight I strongly suggest you brush up on Reverse Babble!
Orchid's guide to Reverse Babble

Edited Dec 15 at around 5am:
I stronly suggest you read all the way to the end of your thread before replying anymore. Orchid has posted to you herself.

MEDC,

Is there a different strategy for dealing w/ a WS who was once a BS, than there is for one who wasn't?

~ Marsh

Yes, I would say there is. It's called understanding your spouse.... but then again, I think that fits into the main MB strategy.

A spouse in an active affair is not to be understood.

During Recovery it will matter.

Really... take a look at your own signature line...

RESENTMENT KILLS MARRIAGES.

If she plan B's him and he is resenting her for what she did... she may lose him forever.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

You just answered my question w/ a yes AND a no.

Would it be fair to restate your position THIS way?..

There isn't a different strategy, just different elements that need to be considered in recovering the M.

..just as there are different elements that need to be considered in EVERY M recovery.


~ Marsh

that would be fair... but I answered that way on purpose.... I think we should always try and understand our partner... wayward or not... and because IP is a FWS, she is in the unique position of saying if their recovery was handled in a way that allowed for some true healing (which is doubtful).

Almost every WS has resentments built up against a BS.

What makes the resentment from an A any different from any other type of resentment?

Are you suggesting Plan B should only be recommended for those who have cheating spouses who aren't resentful?

~ Marsh

no.

What makes the resentment from an A any different from any other type of resentment?


A lot. It is the greatest betrayal possible. IMHO.

MEDC,
I try so hard to avoid your posts as they usually contradict anything that is sane and reasonable.

There have been those of us who have been helping IP since the day she posted.

We have seen how fragile she is and how she has worked so hard to overcome the fear she has and to take steps to expose and work on her marriage.

Now you come here sounding just like her WS who is blaming her. How dare you do that to her.

IP, please do not pay him any attention. He wasn't even married to the person who betrayed him- it is a whole different ball game.

*EDIT******* I have been very supportive of her and do not condone her H's actions... but she needs to understand them. *************EDIT***********

An A is the greatest betrayal possible.

But, I'm not asking about the betrayal, I'm asking about the resentment.

If a WS has a resentment that came from an A, rather than any other failed expectation, should that take plan B off the table for his/her BS?

~ Marsh

***************EDIT**********
I was married to a WS. **************EDIT**********

No, it would merely delay it until she knows that her A was handled correctly and that his resentment would not be fueled by her walking away into Plan B. But certainly, the option remains on the table.

It doesn't matter how great his resentment about her affair, it does not justify his affair and does not change how she handles his. She goes forth with Plan A and Plan B just like everyone else. Nothing has changed.

If and when they ever make it to recovery, the issue/nonissue of her past affair can be addressed. But nothing can be done about at the present, so I don't even know why it is being bandied about. It just is not an issue TODAY because it is not pertinent to the situation at hand.

She has quite on her plate right now without having to worry about auxilary issues that are not relevant to the issue at hand.

I have read this thread and every other one she has had since Thanksgiving Day.

oh yeah, Dr Harley is passing out Kool-aid- ALL the advice she has gotten has been straight from his books and this site- you on the other hand are the first to come on here and spout *****
Thanks for calling me******* that just really proved my point.

oh and the******comment too- you really are showing your best side to her.

MEDC...

You cannot rationalize with an active WS...Anything that IP addresses RIGHT NOW about this past betrayal will only fuel his rationalizations and justifications...

You need to back off of this person who has on this very board alluded to SUICIDE...She is in a fragile state right now...Further what you are talking about has a place in RECOVERY, not in trying to end this affair...THAT IS WHERE SHE IS RIGHT NOW...

Normally I don't question your intentions here...But when you seemingly go on attack of a BS in OBVIOUS crisis, I will admit that I have to wonder...Please show some compassion and realize that you aren't helping in this situation...

Mrs. W

I disagree. And the last I checked, it was still okay to disagree here on MB. That is why there is a forum. If everyone gave the same advice we could just direct people to read books to find all the answers. I think there is more to this situation... and have said repeatedly that his affair is not justified.

read the whole thread before questioning my intentions.

I HAVE read the WHOLE thread, AND have been in email contact with IP, MEDC...So trust me when I tell you that I KNOW you are NOT helping this situation!!!

Mrs. W

So, your advice to IP, would be, suck up whatever abuse her WS doles out to her until when???

What does the timetable look like?

When can she be certain that his replies to her are free from the FOG of his A, and aren't being said to her to manipulate, control, humiliate, or blame her for his A?

And will he say to her, "You can go into a Plan B, b/c my resentments won't be fueled by it now." ?

~ Marsh

And WHEN her H leaves her as a result of his resentments from the past...you will have helped too. I will leave IP to the obvious experts here.

Exactly, Mrs. W. I talked to her today and no, this is not helping. She was very upset over this very thing.

She is having a hard enough time without someone else assigning blame.

No matter what happened - NO ONE is justified in having an affair.

If this is the case then I have about oh, 5 and a half years and I can have one and it will be perfectly reasonable since my husband had one. NOT

all I suggested was that she sit down with him and have a heart to heart discussion. So, no... I NEVER said that she handle his abuse... NEVER and your implication that I have is a misrepresentation of my position.

Your opinions have been noted...We appreciate your cooperation in bowing out! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

I have no idea what you are "disagreeing" about. But I do know that her past affair makes absolutely no difference in the execution of this program and you can't demonstrate otherwise. [and don't even try] Instead, you shoot your mouth off and call names instead of rationally and intelligently explaining WHY or HOW her Plans should somehow be different.

Calling folks ******* and "************** and ***** because they disagree with you does not a position make. It just makes you look defensive and foolish.

Why not spend your time defending your position instead of calling names? Folks might take you more seriously if you did that. Put your money where your mouth is, fella! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Well, you've just said in one post what I was trying to say in several.

~ Marsh

so, you are saying that he is justified?

very interesting concept

That would mean that all affairs are now justified as I am sure all BS have done things to cause our WS resentment.

EVERYONE,***********AND HELP THIS POOR WOMAN OUT. SHE IS OBVIOUSLY IN A MAJOR CRISIS RIGHT NOW. IF YOU WANT TO FLAME EACH OTHER START YOUR OWN THREAD!

IP,

Unfortunately your WH is cake-eating and trying to salvage his relationship with the OW. I would mail your letter to OWs parents, talk to your husbands HR department and let them know the two have a date on Saturday night, and what are they going to do about it, and get ready for Plan B. Unfortunately, he is really trying to hurt you now, so you need to protect yourself by going to plan B before the holidays. Don't let him walk all over you like this. I know you are scared, but don't let your fears get in the way of doing what is right. Trust the good posters on this forum. We'll help you out with this.

This woman needs some plan B letters and advice right now. I am not an expert with plan B, so could we get someone with some experience to help her out?

******************EDIT****************

************edit************

you just won't quit will you? Haven't you disturbed this lady's thread enough?

jm,
that is EXACLTY what she was getting and has been getting until MEDC decided to jump in and make her feel like she deserved being screwed around on. NO ONE deserves that.

We will continue to give her advice from this site, the Harley books and our experiences as it relates.

thank you

*****************edit*************

Enough everyone. I don't care who started it, but I don't want to see anymore threads that don't give IP any plan B advice.

We need a BW, that has plan Bed her WH to personally call and talk IP through this. IP still sounds like she needs some convincing and calming down, so it would be nice if someone here could talk to her. I know Eph(SCBetrayed) needed it to go through with his plan.

If she hasn't done a rockin Plan A, it's too early to go to Plan B, in my humble opinion.

Who is this or what is this BW.. Please. Sorry to threadjack, but I was referred to a BW thread regarding Plan B and I cannot find it anywhere...

Thanks

BW = Betrayed Wife

IP,

For the record, I don't think you did ANYTHING to deserve what your WH is doing to you now.

Nor do I think your situation disqualifies you from using Plan A or Plan B.

(((((InPain)))))

~ Marsh

In Pain, I think it's clear that 99.9% of us are in agreement:


But Plan B works best if you can pull off a memorable Plan A, so that when he starts to "come down" from the Affair high, he'll remember where Home is.

Plan A is about making Home a warm loving inviting place that will call to him when he hits the inevitable bottom.

I think she's been working on Plan A since 10/6 and Dr. Harley recommends plan A for 1.5 to 3 months for a WH. Her WH is becoming increasingly psychologically abusive, so I think she is ready for plan B. She is at her wits end, and I think she needs to stand up and protect herself from further abuse. Her husband is a cake-eater as well, and they all need plan B to wake them up, so staying in plan A will just prolong her pain.

There should be no Marriage/Recovery/Relationship talk during Plan A though, and I'm concerned she has been too mopey to leave a good impression. Of course I could be wrong and if she's at the end of her rope, there's not much more she can do, but if she's not ready for Plan B, and she thinks she can lighten it up, then I would try to go a little longer. Just a thought.

I haven't seen many WS who weren't abusive. I thought that was one of the standard characteristics. It is in my experience.

Whatever. I do what I want. [flutters hookerwear blue shadow clad lids]

This is my advise.

You sound extremely BROKEN. You can't do a thing to help your marriage until you get YOUR head above the water line.

Right now you are getting tossed in the waves because you are making what I would term response based decisions...meaning you keep pushing buttons trying to find the one that will give you the immediate response that you want.

I'm telling you that button doesn't exist.

What I suggest is that you seek IC...probably ADs too.

Take a walk. A bubble bath. Read a pulp fiction novel. Go to a salon. Self nurture and self soothe.

Then when you are calm and centered.

READ/STUDY the material.

This does not mean post. It means read/study the books.

Do you agree with them? Why or why not?

If you do not actually study and consider the material and choose it based on your agreement with the principles involved I guarantee your resolve to work the plan will fail you every single time you get negative feedback from your WS.

If you decide that you do agree then I suggest you call SH for strategy and negotiation counsel.

While your history as a WS in no way justifies his affair..it does complicate the matter and indicates that NEITHER of you function or cope very well and both tend to become lost/escape into fantasy.

This is something you really want to be mindfull of and I demonstrate particular concern because you have both been an active WS and have demonstrated some suicidal ideation...you need HELP to stay grounded in reality. Probably more than a message board can offer if used as your only means of counsel.

Let's not put the cart before the horse.

Don't try to work a plan [use a tool] you don't understand and may not agree with once you DO.

First get centered. Take care of your needs. Create a support system. Address the psych issues.

Then study the material.

Then make a plan.

Only when you have done these things are you truly prepared to execute a plan.

Um, Jim did somebody die and make you King Marriage Builder? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> You seem like a very nice guy, but you are FAR too young to be my daddy, k? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Some of us have been here long enough to KNOW when someone NEEDS defending from certain posters, lest they be left reeling...I know you didn't know...so, no worries! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

Mrs W and moveforward - since you are in touch with IP, please walk her through how to block her ability to see destructive posters who insist on posting destructive advice on her thread. It will help her greatly to focus instead of get distracted and reduced to more pain. Her WS is attacking her enough without help from MEDC. Please call her tonight and make sure she does this.

thanks Kayla
I will talk to her in the morning. I don't want to call tonight when he is home.

ROFL Kayla!

LOVE the sig line <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I hear ya KA and agree...we'll pass it along...AND...


LOVE THE NEW SIGNATURE LINE!!! LOL! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

**snort** <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

*chortle*

Wow. Once again I find myself kind of thinking like MEDC. I think it is VITAL that inpain look at EVERYTHING.

Inpain - MEDC is really an honorable and decent guy. He grows on you after awhile.

Please have hope. You have just exposed. Your husband is behaving typically. Most come back to the marriage. He is going by the WS handbook, and we can PREDICT his words and actions. Many people who were way worse off than you have saved their marriage and gone on to have a much better one.

I do too believer, once they are in RECOVERY...Right now her husband is in an ACTIVE AFFAIR...Her WH would only use any talks that she had about this past betrayal as ammunition against her...He already has, in fact...It plays well into his rationalizations and justifications as does every little thing about the BS to an infidel...There really is no being logical with an illogical fogged out WS, so now is not the time to talk to him about this, wouldn't you agree?

Mrs. W

Nope, I don't. I think she might want to apologize for her behavior years ago, and realize that maybe he is having an affair to get back at her. No need to beg and plead, just simply express her regret.

On the bright side, she is very early in this. The exposure takes some time to work.

My prayers are with her.

Funny thing it is usually said on here not to try to reason with a WS - in fact, you have said it- now it is ok?

Let me get this straight so I don't confuse myself- you only try to reason with a WS if you yourself have had an affair?

The kool aid flavors sure keep changing tonight.

I'm willing to bet that apologies to him have been made regarding the past, prior to his affair-he has had SEVEN years to let her know if that was still an issue for him...I can certainly tell you that in wayward mode that would NOT have been a good thing to present to me...I would have used it against Mr. W, sadly...There really is NO rationalizing with the irrational...I am grateful that Mr. W and I have recovered our marriage and hope that we will be able to offer IP support and help to do the same...

Mrs. W

believer, she long ago apologized for her affair and asked forgiveness, there is no need to do it over and over again.

There is no excuse to have an affair and her affair hasn't a damn thing to do with his. Embarking on another apology tour will only hand him some more ammunition to rationalize his affair. Of course it is something that must be evaluated, but while in RECOVERY. Right now, she has an affair to deal with.

She needs to educate herself about the program, like noodle suggested, and focus on calming down.

Got it, Mel. I had a real hard time calming down 3 years ago when I came here. Thankfully, y'all got me through it. Life is good again, and that will be my prayer for inpain.

This stuff sucks.

I agree.

What he is doing to her now far outweighs anything that she has done to him in the past. It is totally irrelevant to the present situation IMHO

Ok IP, let's make this a bit more simple for you. 1st off, understand that the variety of posts are basically trying to keep you sane and strong. We may have different ways of helping you but the intent is the same. I have yet to read of a poster in this thread advocating the WS ways, ok?

Now hold my hand and let's go look at this together.

1. Your H is a WS. He is not rational in his thought and actions.

2. You had shortcomings in the past. Let them stay there. Make sure you are NOT contributing to that kind of lifestyle. NOTE: It may become a strong temptation to want attention which could lead to an EA/PA. Refrain from putting yourself in that type of sitch.

3. If the WS wants to dig up the past, give him a shovel and let him have at it. He will have to put effort into it but you need to stay out of his way. He wants to dig, let him dig until he poops out. Don't wipe his but, don't fix him dinner, don't wash his clothes...... he wants to dig. Remind him he has a shovel in his hand and can't handle eating and shoveling [censored] at the same time. In other words, leave him be. Just go to a safe place.

4. Do NOT apologize for the past more than once. The WS in him will want to pull you through that cycle over and over because it soothes their WS soul. Do NOT give into that kind of sick need. Instead, remind him you are not doing that now, then look at his eyes and say....r u? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> There, your 1st reverse babble lesson.

To a certain extent you must realize that you can never be nice to a WS. So if you are afraid of losing your H you will want to be distant with the WS. The nicer you are to the WS, the greater the chance you stand of losing your H.

Which brings me to my next point. It is very simple: Plan A your spouse and plan B the WS.

Remember to plan B, your mind and heart must be in sync. You can't rush it. So in the interim, keep busy and rest. Get a hobby, visit a friend, come work in my yard <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />, call Jean36 (she's got lots of yard work - it is therapuetic for her), etc. Keep busy. If you have children concentrate on them. Reassure them of your love. LEARN to live WITHOUT the WS.

Btw, the WS needs t/b distant with you. You are bad association for a WS (reverse psychology ploy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ). That's a tool you can use for YOUR protection. Try it!

Now we are at the end of our walk tonight. It ia almost midnight here and I have just gotten home from work. Lasagna doesn't taste so good this late at night and I gotta go do the dishes. So let go of my arm and get some rest. We will chat tomorrow, ok?

Btw, Medc means well....just a bit rough around the edges but basically a good guy. What u r hearing is probably his frustration at your H. We all have different ways of expressing it. You should read some of my posts a few years ago. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

We can do more RB stuff tomorrow.

take care,
L.

((((IP)))
How are you tonight?

Read and reread Orchid's post. She is wonderful!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /><waving to L.>

I remember very well, when my WH was still "hanging out w/ his "friend". (He was also very concerned I'd ruin her reputation. She was SO nice!)It was so painful. I had panic attacks, couldn't eat, couldn't sleep. The thing that helped the most was make a plan. MY PLAN.

I needed routine and structure not only for me but for my kids as well ....living in the chaos of A, w/ a spouse who had be taken over by aliens. I made a to do list.... basic routine, shower, dress down to my shoes...not sweats, makeup, make my bed, do a load of laundry, dishes, child care, etc. I needed it because I swear there were days I was so distracted I'd forget to brush my teeth. (www.flylady.net is very helpful for establishing routines).
That stuff was part of my plan A. I would also plan for plan B,,,,gather info on finances, insurance policies,tax returns, investments, opened my own bank account.(that one threw WH & OW into a tail spin...quote from OW"Oh was she crying and all upset because you went out tonight? NO???What do you mean she opened her own bank account??!! This is a whole new ballgame. I don't want her starting trouble!") Consult a lawyer, know your rights, figure out a budget you can live on, if WH doesn't give you money what would you do, grow your support system in RL...who will help w/ child care, etc.Gather evidence about A...documentation in case you need it for court, emails, texts, phone bills, credit card statements, ATM statements, track his nights out and cross reference...DO NOT share evidence w/ him make copies of everything and store them away from your house.

In pain...this is war....make a plan...a stratedgy to save your family.

You mentioned he had a parent that died suddenly....Check out info on mid-life-crisis...death of a parent and new baby can help start MLC. Believer knows a website, fortysix.com or something like that.

Ifound it...www.fortysixty.org

IP,

How r u doing? C42 hit it right on when she wrote how she coped. Make a plan. YOUR PLAN!!! It will empower you more than you realize now.

take care,
L.

InP,

How are you today??? Hope you got some sleep, I know it's hard, but try to rest for yourself as much as you can. This will be a long road.

Listen to these people. I wasn't always sure they were telling me the right thing to do, but I did them anyway and at each turning point they were dead on. They said M2L if you do this your ww will do that and it worked. After 7 months of Plan A my wife crashed this past week and now feels lots of guilt.

You can make it too

InP,

Forgive me if this is a repeat, but this helped me. Marsh past it along.DOs

1. Act Happy
2. Get a life (new activities, etc.)
3. repeat over and over..."I will make it"
4. Actively LISTEN....keep conversations at "to the point...small talk" ...don't blow it up beyond the waywards current comfort zone
5. Tend to Agree (Thank you for your truthfulness, It seems that way, you have a point)
6. Expand your social relationships (Being especially aware of your own vulnerability and keeping sharing and time with opposite sex relationships to an absolute minimum)
7. Get sexy (gym, new clothes, etc)
8. Focus on your strengths and Positives...don't put yourself down verbally or constantly go over what you did wrong
9. Accept Uncertainty (Do your best today and let God take care of tommorrow)

DON'Ts

1. Repeatedly say "I love you"
2. Ask questions that don't have answers yet
3. Criticize, complain, whine or nag
4. Say, "I've changed"....allow the wayward spouse to simply judge your actions
5. Argue, Reason or Plead
6. Don't get family or friends overly involved in recovery (notice I said "in recovery", EXPOSURE to bust up an active affair IS ESSENTIAL and EXPOSURE to the OP's spouse is an absolute MUST)
7. Act helpless or depressed
8. Discuss morality, invoke God or Dr. Laura type babble
9. Suggest marital counseling (must be the waywards idea)
10. Tell them continually "we need to work on the relationship"
11. GIVE UP

~ Marsh

M2L passed on some GREAT tips!

As far as your past...deal w/ that w/ your IC....you did the things a WS is suppose to do, stopped contact, told spouse, focused on family and marriage. Now you need to work on acceptance and forgiving yourself.

We are human we sometimes make bad choices, I know I did. Before I got married I did some things that I am not proud of, I kind of skimmed over them w/ H before we got married, he never asked for details I never offered them. I thought it was all behind me.....but I never really dealt w/ it. Then when we were having difficulty getting pregnant I thought God was punishing me...the guilt I felt was overwhelming. After a miscarriage and another year of "trying" we were blessed and I got pregnant. 5 months in I started w/ premature labor and had to go on bedrest, ended up w/ my son being born 2 wks LATE! After a very long labor (36hrs) and emergency c-section he was born w/ sepsis (blood infection from being in labor so long) he had irregular heart rate and would stop breathing at times. I made a deal w/ God that I would be the best Mom ever. I became totally focused on my son and neglected my H. I didn't even want to meet his needs.

2 years later I had a baby girl. She was the most beautiful baby w/ porcelin skin and pouty lips. I couldn't believe that God blessed me twice! I was devoted to my babies. The whole time H was there supporting me and I was so overwhelmed with the guilt from my past I couldn't see it. All I could think about was being a good Mom....I became a terrible W.

As the kids got older (BTW they are both happy and healthy), I started to see I needed a balance. By that time OW had already started to infilltrate my family as a "friend". Never in a million years did I think my H would betray me. I was wrong.

What I learned...I made bad choices, did things I would never dream of doing now. It seemed surreal at the time. I came around...I changed. I have finally face my demons and forgiven myself. It gave me empathy for my WH...I think that is why I was able to hang in there. I knew my H was lost...I love him, I wanted to be the lighthouse to find his was home. WH is gone and my H is home. I thank God and MB for it everyday.

I know you are fearful about WH leaving. Prepare yourself. But leaving isn't always a bad thing. We didn't make any real progress until my WH finally left and I went to plan B.

Waiting to hear from you.

IP..How are you?

Has anyone heard from IP??

no, and she is not answering her phone or returning emails to me. I am very concerned.

Oh no.

I was hoping you were still in touch w/ her.

Let's hope she went to stay w/ someone for a while.

~ Marsh

Has anyone spoken to her since MEDC went off on her? She hasn't posted since his diatribe.

KA... actually there was no diatribe... I told her that I think she needs to consider all possibilites...but you have a tendancy to run with the negative towards me... so your comment is no unexpected...
funny, I don't see you harassing Believer for saying she agreed with my thoughts.
Typical.
Let's just hope for the best that she is indeed working things through with her H...

She also has not answered my emails...This really concerns me due to the previous talk of suicide...

Mrs. W

I feel like you and I are in the same boat. Just found out this week about the OMW. It's like one day your in love and then the next your husband is asking for a divorce- at least that's my situation. No warning signs at all. My husband hasnt been home all week. He has completely shut down and wont talk to me. He doesnt even talk to me like I'm his wife anymore.

I feel your pain..

MEDC - I've refrained all evening from responding to you, because I wish many times that while I may agree at times with some of what you say, you appear to lack the caring or kindness that needs to be in the delivery to be heard - right or wrong in the message - and I find myself taking issue with that delivery and it appears I'm not in a minority on that point. Ironically - when you are confronted about your delivery - you take issue with how that confrontation is delivered... Disrespect taken where none was intended is frequently met with disrespect intentionally delivered - hence my total willingness to be labeled as a Koolaid drinker from here-on-out! Harley's principles work and I credit Willard Harley himself with saving my marriage - along with some very hard work by principal interest holders in my marriage.

I'm of the mind that you would hear very little of use to me in that feedback. In the event that I'm wrong, may I quote someone else:

Now, Mrs. W and MF - is there a way that you can get through to IP via phone - or someone who knows her, and check on her?

KaylaAndy - Can we take this to a new thread?

I'd rather not. I'm done with MEDC anyway. If he gets it he gets it.

Hey KA,
Mrs, W and I have both tried and tried on the phone. We are very concerned.

Think we should all be praying for this family.

If you have a phone number... you can get an address... if you have an address, the police frequently do "check on the well being" calls to homes. You do not need to be a family member to request this.

((( IP )))

Please come back, honey.... we are all praying for you

Dear God, Please look down on our angel, IP and continue to keep her in Your arms. Thank you for sending all the MB Angels to help her through her crisis. And, please let someone here know that IP is alright... we, as You know, are worried sick !

Sending prayers your way - Carnation

IP,

We know u r in pain. That is how most of us have been. The fact of the matter is in addition to your pain is a lot of care. A good portion of it from people who you don't even know what they look like. This board has members from all over the world. Many of them would like to know how you are doing. Please let at least someone you feel safe talking with know how you are doing. Of course, if you could post here, that w/b even better.

I will share with you an experience I had not long after coming to MB. During my crisis, there was a poster from England whose WS deserted her and she was from another country so had no relatives or friends in her area. She felt very alone. She had started working and knew just a few people. One night she was quite distraught. She had no children or relatives and felt quite alone. She posted on MB and I gave her e-mail addy. Several of us stayed and posted to her. This went on for a couple of weeks and one night she mentioned suicide. We had already talked on the phone a few times (yea me on a budget, calling England)..... anyway.... I sensed she was serious so I told her I would gether some help and got her assurance she would cooperate. The best I could do from my distance (I was in California), I called Scotland Yard. It was the right thing to do. They got to her and made sure she was safe. She posted for a whle after that and she sounded much stronger. It scared her but she realized her life is more valuable than allowing the WS to ruin it by making her sooo depressed. I have lost track of her these past few years so I don't know exactly how she is doing now. I would like to hear from her but am hoping our help, helped....even in a small way.

So from my heart to yours.....please let us know how you are doing. ok? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hugz,
L.