Marriage Builders®
Posted By: Gerkaguards WW waffling between us - 04/17/10 09:52 AM
We're about 20 days past "d day." Let me preface this with our situation. We're both active duty Army officers. Due to her finishing school 1 year after me, she was one year behind in joining the Army, and the cumulative effect of that is that we haven't cohabitated in almost 2 years due to initial training. This fall was supposed to be the end of that. We are (were) going to be stationed together and actually live together again. We lived together for 2 years before being married, and dated a year before that. I'm currently in Afghanistan, until August.

I attempted to contact OM's spouse, she found out, confronted me, it all came out. Primarily an emotional affair since they're geographically separated. It was physical before they were separated. Her initial reaction was "I'm in love with him. I haven't been in love with you in a long time. I want out. There's nothing to work on and nothing to try for. I want a divorce NOW." She was extremely cold, emotionless, angry and hurtful. My initial reaction was that I loved her and she needed to stop this. We held those positions for about a week. Finally one night she broke, and agree to marriage counseling. A couple of sweet emails, then I didn't hear anything from her from a couple days. The next thing I got was a long email explaining how I had manipulated her into feeling bad, and I'm a terrible person and she's not happy and she wants out.

So another week goes by, the whole time I'm trying to stay positive and not be angry. I find the marriage builders basic concepts, and send them to her. The next time I talk to her she's telling me how much sense it all makes, how we weren't meeting each others needs, but now she sees, and she's so sorry. And we talked for about 3 days, VERY positively, with her assuring me that there would be no more contact with the OM, and she sent a "no contact" letter. We both read all of the basic concepts on here, and the Surviving Infidelity articles. She agreed to come live with me when I get back, and she was talking about our future again, how she wants a baby with my eyes, etc etc. She ordered the marriage builder book series for us as well. Then, seemingly out of nowhere, I talk to her this morning and she's again distant, almost emotionless. I asked her how she was feeling (since we've been sharing our feelings through the policy of radical honesty) and she said, "It would probably hurt you to feel." I asked her to tell me anyway, and it was, "I can't do this. I don't want to be with you. I don't want to stop talking to (the OM.) I want to talk to HIM about my feelings and I can't just stop. I'm in love with him. This isn't going to work, it's just not. I don't want it to."

I was devastated, having a panic attack. I thought we were over the hump, but then it's right back to where we started. I've arranged a sort of long distance marriage counseling with a marriage counselor here and one where she is, but when I asked her to go, she said she didn't want to, she already has an individual counselor. I told her that the marriage counselor could provide her a lot of support, and the supervision and accountability that she (just 2 days ago) admitted she needed to stay out of contact with the OM. She responded with "why the hell would I want to make myself accountable for something I don't want to do for something else that's not going to work."

I'm a very, very strong person. I've managed to remain positive through pretty much this entire ordeal. I feel like this situation would be radically different if I could be there to hold her hands and talk to her and support her. I've done my best to try to make the marriage a good place to be, but that's pretty difficult from the other side of the planet. Compared to someone that can talk to her on the same time zone, I'm sure she feels like she's giving up the man she's in love with for a marriage to someone that's not even there.

It's also worth noting that the OM is also an active duty Army officer, is 10 years older than us, and has a wife and three children. Her initial reaction was to feel extremely threatened by my attempt to contact the OM's wife, and accuse me of threatening her, and her career, etc. I promised her that I had no intention of telling her command. But the more she waffles and goes back and forth between us, and the more I read about exposure, the more I think that it may be the only way forward. She's told me that she's told her family and friends and they support her in getting a divorce. I'm not really sure what she's told them though.

It's true that exposing them might be extremely detrimental to their careers, since they're both still in training. I have easy communications with both of their commanders, and with her and my family. My family has no idea about any of this. At the same time, I'm extremely hesitant to burn her so bad, especially after promising not to.

I'm just not sure what to do next. She doesn't seem willing to let go of this OM, even though they have no future that I can see together. There's no way he's leaving his wife and kids (he's been in the Army as an NCO for some time) because he's too invested, and he'd lose so much in a divorce. But she doesn't acknowledge that. She just says I "don't understand the situation."

I've never cheated, or lied, and she's the first to say that I'm a great guy that deserves a great person. But she says that's not her.

Help?
Posted By: Vittoria Re: WW waffling between us - 04/17/10 11:46 AM
Hi Jeff,

It sounds like you understand exposure, you need to do this.
Affairs thrive on secrecy, as you've seen.
Contact the OM's BW.
Being in the army doesn't exclude people from the consequences of adultery.

It doesn't matter that you promised not to expose, things change.
WW promised to forsake all others, you are not doing your M any good by adhering to a promise that
enables the destruction of your M.
You say that you want to save your M, it's time to do what is necessary.
Be prepared for WW to be furious, that will fade. Ignore her rants.

You've got the added challenge of being separated right now.
I have no suggestions for you there, sorry.

Others will be along to advise.
Since it's the weekend and it will be slow, bump your thread up occasionally.
This means posting on your thread thereby moving it to the top of the list.
(it took me awhile to figure out what 'bump' meant when I first got here)

I'm sorry that you are here, many of us understand the hell that you are in.

Welcome to MB!
hug



Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/17/10 11:58 AM
My concern is that being in the Army greatly magnifies the consequences. Not only is this sort of thing frowned upon, it's illegal.
Posted By: Vittoria Re: WW waffling between us - 04/17/10 12:05 PM
You know what, I don't understand the army politics.
There is a forum here specifically for Military Marriages.
I don't know what is over there but hopefully you can get some insight.

When you click on 'Hop to' for the list of forums, to the bottom right of your screen,
you will see that forum, it is 8th from the top.

Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/17/10 12:07 PM
Essentially it would be like if your spouse could be fired from their job if their boss found out they were having an affair.
Posted By: Vittoria Re: WW waffling between us - 04/17/10 12:15 PM
I guess your WW should have thought about the consequences of her actions before she decided to commit adultery.

If you fear the repercussions of exposure, from your WW, you have a poor chance of saving your M.

Contact the OM's BW, your WW's family and any other significant others who have influence over WW.
The OM's BW will be your best source of ending this right now, you said that he will not leave his family due to these circumstances of the army.
Would he not drop her like a hot potato if he thought that this A might be founded out???
Posted By: Vittoria Re: WW waffling between us - 04/17/10 12:29 PM
I'm not familiar with all of the threads over here in SaA.

Is there anyone around that knows of a thread where the WH or WW is in the army???

Could you link or name the thread for Jeff?

I honestly don't know if these situations are treated any different or if there are ways around exposing within the system, without a loss of job.
I do know that WS's have lost their jobs over adultery.

btw, I think it's admirable that the army considers adultery, illegal.
Posted By: believer Re: WW waffling between us - 04/17/10 12:35 PM
Sounds to me like your wife is not cut out to be in the Army. And it is not that the Army magnifies the consequences, it is that she is breaking the rules.

It is good that the two of you have read and understand the MB stuff because that will go a long way toward having a good marriage.

By the way, thanks for your sacrifice and service.

The only way you are going to be able to facilitate the end of the affair is by exposure. You need to let the OM's wife know the truth of her life so that she has some chance of protecting her family. The CO's need to know about the adultery also. And please tell both of your families and friends.

If you choose to try to protect her by not exposing, then the future of your marriage is in jeopardy.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/17/10 12:41 PM
It also hurts so much that she would do all of this while I'm on the other side of the world, and emotionally abandon me. I was totally emotionally out of control from grief initially, and literally had no one to talk to. During that time she was cold, distant, and totally unemotional.

Since then, in her "clearer" moments, she's said repeatedly how much she loves me, and wants us to have a future together. I know I can forgive, but I feel like unless she can somehow shake herself out of this fantasy, she's going to wake up in a year or so and realize she divorced someone she loved, that deeply loved her in return.
Posted By: AheadOfTheCurve Re: WW waffling between us - 04/17/10 12:53 PM
Jeff,

It may come down to a choice. Do you want your WW to have a military career, or do you want to be married?

The status quo ain't gonna work. It's a path to marital disaster. And quite frankly, this OM needs to be hammered good for what he's doing. Like maybe a trip to the gray-bar hotel in Kansas.
Posted By: Vittoria Re: WW waffling between us - 04/17/10 12:57 PM
Originally Posted by Jeff4187
It also hurts so much that she would do all of this while I'm on the other side of the world, and emotionally abandon me. I was totally emotionally out of control from grief initially, and literally had no one to talk to. During that time she was cold, distant, and totally unemotional.
Spouses committing adultery are all those things that you say. Their thinking is selfish, they are thoughtless to the hurt of their BS's.
They are in 'ME' world. What you describe is typical.
It hurts, and I'm sorry that you have had to deal with this, by yourself. Tell your family, you need support through this.

Quote
Since then, in her "clearer" moments, she's said repeatedly how much she loves me, and wants us to have a future together. I know I can forgive, but I feel like unless she can somehow shake herself out of this fantasy, she's going to wake up in a year or so and realize she divorced someone she loved, that deeply loved her in return.
WW likely had contact after these 'clearer' moments. Whether she caved and contacted OM or OM contacted her and she allowed it,
it doesn't really matter.

Contact has to stop.
NC is the first step towards recovery.
Withdrawl of her feelings for OM happens after NC has been in place.
The end of withdrawl allows the M to be restored to a better one.

Does this make sense so far??

WW will not shake this fantasy herself, she will become more entangled in it.
Exposure is the bomb that will break up the fantasy, it brings the reality of the disgusting act to light.

Right now, NC is your priority, that is step one.

Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/17/10 01:02 PM
She agreed to NC, wrote the letter to him. That's when things seemed like they were on the upswing a couple days ago. Then this morning it was a total reversal, I assume because of some contact with him. She said she "can't cut him out of her life" and she doesn't want to. She can't do this. Etc etc. She said the only reason she was thinking we could work things out is because she felt guilty for what she'd done to me, and that she didn't want to stay with me out of guilt. She said she'd been crying for the 3 days that I thought were good days for us, but she feels fine now, as soon as she talks to him again and gives up on our marriage.

I simply have no way to stop the contact. I'm not there, she doesn't have me for support, love, supervision and accountability.
Posted By: now_what Re: WW waffling between us - 04/17/10 01:04 PM
Jeff,
She will NOT have any "clearer" moments until the affair is over. Anything and everything she says to ou right now will only be to put you at ease so she can continue the affair.

I am sorry you are here.
Posted By: Vittoria Re: WW waffling between us - 04/17/10 01:05 PM
Here is a link that can guide you.

Both parts of the carrot and stick must be done to be effective.

Read, absorb, and implement.

Carrot and the Stick

You can do this, you really can!
Posted By: Vittoria Re: WW waffling between us - 04/17/10 01:09 PM
Originally Posted by Jeff4187
I simply have no way to stop the contact.
This is untrue.

You have exposure.
Posted By: saynomore Re: WW waffling between us - 04/17/10 01:13 PM
Jeff,

Thank you for your service and I am so sorry for your pain. Please take care of yourself and try to keep your head together. You are among friends and we will help you through this.

You hold the key to NC in exposing. If you choose not to expose then you choose the end of your M. It may be the hardest thing that you have ever done and she will be furious but until you put an end to this A, your M has zero chance.

Smileygirl is a military wife currently dealing with an A and exposure and her WH being deployed. You may want to read her thread.

God's Blessings,

Say
Posted By: AheadOfTheCurve Re: WW waffling between us - 04/17/10 01:17 PM
Jeff,

You HAVE to expose. This guy isn't fit to be an Army officer. The injunction against this goes way back before the UCMJ was even a glimmer of an idea.

How about King David?

Expose. Expose NOW.
Posted By: ouchthathurt Re: WW waffling between us - 04/17/10 02:03 PM
Expose them. They are not fit to be officers.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/17/10 07:34 PM
Jeff, the minute you expose to OMW and your/her CO, you won't have to worry about OM again. Sure, your WW will be mad, but she won't leave you because she's mad, she'll leave you for OM. Once OM is out of the picture, you have no worries. I exposed to my WW's employer. Afterwards, she was FULL of venom. "I was thinking of working things out with you until you put my career at risk. Now we're getting divorced." Guess what? I'm still married. It all blew over in a couple of weeks. And I imaging your situation will be the same once OM and your WW are no longer allowed to contact each other. The anger will blow over. However, your WW's flip-flopping will continue indefinitely until you expose.

There is a reason the Army has these rules. It's not up to you to enable to wife to continue to break them. Even if you didn't want to expose, you should blow the whistle anyway.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: WW waffling between us - 04/17/10 11:31 PM
You need to expose. To tired to write more.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 03:40 AM
WW told me that she'd already told her family and they supported her, which I find hard to believe. I've just told one of her good friends (who was shocked) and I sent her mother an email. I'm getting in contact with my command back in the states for some support in reaching out to the OM and WW's commands.
Posted By: believer Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 03:59 AM
Good job! I doubt that your wife had told her family as that almost never happens. If waywards tell their family, they put a spin on it. Good job on emailing her mother.

You need to tell her about the affair and let her know that you want to save your marriage and would appreciate any help.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 04:35 AM
Told her sister too. She's been talking with her sister a LOT over the past few months. Her sister is getting married next month. Haven't heard anything back from the mom or sister though. Expecting some fury coming my way from my wife.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 04:44 AM
Hi Jeff,

YOu are a young man. There things you need to really understand. I know you understand them from an Army perspective so I will put what I say in those terms. Are there consequences for a troop that messes up and hurts one of his fellow soldiers? Are their consequences for a commander that messes up and risks/endangers/leads to harm for those under him/her? IN fact aren't there consequences large and small if someone messes up while in the military?

Of course I know the answers to all of those questions, but do you? I think you do.

The OM and your W know/knew/will understand that there are consequences for doing something illegal and without morality. Do NOT protect them from those consequences. In fact, one of the MAIN tools for a betrayes spouse is EXPOSURE and allowing the WS to experience the consequences of their actions. Exposure is STRONGLY encouraged by the founder of this site and a man with years of succesful counseling of marriage where affairs have intruded.

Finally, where I went to school before commissioning, they had an honor code. It was simple it said: "Never lie, cheat or steal nor tolerate those that do." It was in place because those in positions such as yours are called to a higher standard. So is your W and so is OM. Hold them to that standard.

You are in a combat zone. You do not need nor should be focused on your W's deeds at this point. It could be deadly to you and those around you. Your W knows this, OM knows this, and so do their commanders.

Put this in the hands of their commanders for right now and focus on your job and being alert. It will do know one any good and certainly not your marriage if you are KIA.

See your Chaplain, see your JAG, and expose this affair to their commanders.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 08:43 AM
Well, after telling one of her good friends, her mother, her sister and her best friend... She called me repeatedly. We finally got a good connection. I got, "So loving me is you trying to ruin my life?!" "Did you really think my friends were going to take your side?" "So you want to threaten me into staying married?" "I feel like I'm done talking to you. From now on you can talk to my lawyer."

I told her I was doing this because it's the right thing, and because I love her. And that I knew she was going to be mad, but hopefully she'll get over it once the affair is destroyed.

She was furious.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 09:03 AM
She just sent an email saying she'll be mailing me divorce papers (in Afghanistan.)
Posted By: TheRoad Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 10:20 AM
Normal WW response. Anger then threaten you. WW can send you all the papers she wants and you do not have to sign them. This shows that they fear exposure. Hoping that their threats stop you from exposing any further.

If WW complains again that you will be ruining her career. You just say you did not do anything. You did not have an affair. You did not break regulations. You did not force WW to have an affair. WW chose to break rules that will damage her career. It was her choices and actions.

How has exposing to the military going?

You must not stop exposing. You must tell the OMW, and his parents as well.
Posted By: Mr_Recon6mo Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 10:22 AM
Talk is cheap - especially among waywards.

You need to expose OMW!!!
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 11:05 AM
Originally Posted by TheRoad
Normal WW response. Anger then threaten you. WW can send you all the papers she wants and you do not have to sign them. This shows that they fear exposure. Hoping that their threats stop you from exposing any further.

If WW complains again that you will be ruining her career. You just say you did not do anything. You did not have an affair. You did not break regulations. You did not force WW to have an affair. WW chose to break rules that will damage her career. It was her choices and actions.

How has exposing to the military going?

You must not stop exposing. You must tell the OMW, and his parents as well.

I'm jumping through hoops trying to contact the OMW. It's tough since I'm here in Afghanistan. I've recruited a few people in their area to help me track her down.

I've drafted the letter to their commanders, and mine. It's one letter for everyone, it outlines how the affair began, how they reacted when confronted, and presents the phone logs as proof. I doubt it's enough proof to get anyone in real trouble (that practically takes sworn statements of admission from the involved parties) but hopefully it will motivate them to seriously counsel these two.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 11:07 AM
Also I got "[censored] you" "go to hell" and "thanks for making this decision easier for me" from my WW. I've never in my life spoken to her like that, or her to me like that.
Posted By: Mr_Recon6mo Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 11:12 AM
You are doing good! Do not warn your WW or OM!
Posted By: Mr_Recon6mo Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 11:17 AM
Originally Posted by Jeff4187
Also I got "[censored] you" "go to hell" and "thanks for making this decision easier for me" from my WW. I've never in my life spoken to her like that, or her to me like that.

And as you read from these forums - very standard WS reaction to exposure.

And as you read from these forums - angry reaction shows that exposure is working.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 11:22 AM
Get those letters out ASAP. Also send them out as emails. Double delivery insures they will be recieved and taken seriously.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 11:23 AM
It seems so crazy since only 5 days ago she was reading MB and saying how much sense it all made, we both filled out emotional needs surveys, everything seemed good, she was being rational again. Then overnight, she's saying she "can't cut him out of her life." and she "doesn't want to." And that "only guilt made her want to try with me again."

Today, after just a little exposure, she's saying "i hope your pop psychology works out for you" and "i hope your threats make you happy." All I've said is that I intend to destroy this affair, she essentially laughed at me and said I couldn't. But she's still furious.
Posted By: Mr_Recon6mo Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 11:35 AM
Do not talk to her too much right now. You cannot talk her out from affair. Act, focus to your plan, do not deviate. I have been in your shoes, my FWW was furious even for the fact that I contacted OM (not OMW)!

Just keep the exposure rolling, it has the best effect when doing it over as short time as possible.

Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 11:45 AM
Well I've already sent messages to her best friend, one of her other friends, her sister, her mother, and soon her commander. Also soon his commander, and hopefully his wife. The letters should be in the commanders' email boxes when they get to work Monday morning. Not too hard to arrange since I'm 12.5 hours ahead of them due to the time zones.
Posted By: ouchthathurt Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 12:33 PM
She said your threats couldn't destroy her affair. Wait till she has to pop tall in front of her commander. And is ordered not to speak to him. And the same goes for him. The army is really starting to come down on adultery. She won't be laughing Monday. Expect the standard call from her. She will be furious, then reality will set in. She has played her only card. Threatening divorce. Oops no more cards. He will not leave his wife. And most definitely throw your wife under the bus.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 12:38 PM
Well I went over my draft letter and the phone records with my supervisor and he said it sounded good, and I had his full support. Blasted it off to all the relevant commanders across the US. I guess they'll see it Monday morning and then the circus will begin.
Posted By: ouchthathurt Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 12:41 PM
Good for you. She will be taken down a peg, when her command gets in her face. Stay strong. And thank you for your service.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 12:52 PM
I shot it off to her OCS company commander as well. I found out there was an investigation back then into their relationship. They denied everything and it was dismissed as rumor. They lied to his face. I figured he deserved to know.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 01:26 PM
She un-friended me on facebook. I'm not friends with my wife!
Posted By: Mr_Recon6mo Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 01:32 PM
Of course, you "ruined" everything (e.g. affair), didn't you? wink

Stay strong.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 01:39 PM
I'm sure she's not even aware of the [censored]-storm that's in the making at this point. 3 LTCs, 2 CPTs and a full bird colonel are going to want answers come Monday morning.
Posted By: AnnaBelleRose Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 01:40 PM
she probably isn't aware.... she's mad and pissed that her little secret is coming out.... my WH definitely was....
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 01:55 PM
I honestly don't see our marriage recovering from this. The level of anger and threats she's made are like nothing I've ever seen from her. Not to mention that she already seemed to have decided that she wanted a divorce.
Posted By: ouchthathurt Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 01:59 PM
All you say me be true. But There is something more important then your marriage. Your self respect. This is her baring the responsibilities and consequences for her actions. When everything is said and done. There is gonna be only one person to blame for this.... The girl in the mirror.
Posted By: Vittoria Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 02:00 PM
Good Morning Jeff,

Yes, you are doing good! You are doing what is right.
Many of here have been through this exposure process, we know how difficult it is and have had our own WS's scream and take tantrums on us.
It will subside.
Many times exposure has been all that is needed to stop an A in it's tracks.

When you are talking to WW, be careful not to get into back and forth spitting games.
She will continue to spew things that will make your blood boil, and your eyes roll.
She's not herself right now, it's like she is abducted by aliens, and that's how you should hear her words.
Change the subject, mention an enjoyable event that the two of you did, mention that you are committed to being M, believe in M ........
Focus on the goal of restoring your M.

I'm glad you have told people who can support you.

I don't know how much of MB your WW knows, it's best that she not know about this forum, yet.
In time when she is committed to restoring your M, she is welcome to get some guidance here.

I hope that you get some results soon about how to contact OM's BW.
Being the other victim, she needs to know what is going on in her life, her M.
You can direct her here to this site for support.

Keep reading the articles and threads.
Do you understand the Carrot and Stick ?

btw, how old are you Jeff?
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 02:08 PM
I'm 25. She turns 24 next month. I've never responded to any of the angry things she's said to me from day 1. I've stayed positive, told her I understand why she feels the way she does, but I love her and want to work on the marriage. She has painted me as controlling, manipulative, monstrous, etc. But she almost always ended up saying I was a great person, she feels terrible for what she's put me through, and I deserve to be with another great person, not someone like her.

I still haven't heard back from any of her friends or family that I sent messages to. I have to wonder what she's told them about the situation.
Posted By: believer Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 03:00 PM
Prepare for her to be very angry.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 03:15 PM
Originally Posted by believer
Prepare for her to be very angry.


Well she said she didn't want to talk to me, that I could talk to her lawyer on the phone. Then she sent me a bunch of short nasty emails. Should I assume that she's not done talking then? That she won't just clam up and try to file for divorce?
Posted By: _Larry_ Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 03:35 PM

Jeff:

When she hits bottom, she may very well run for the light. Be the light. I see words that indicate she may not be happy with herself right now. For good reason. And she may not know how to get out of the situation she finds herself in. For good reason.

Be the light she runs to. And she may.

Larry.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 03:37 PM
Originally Posted by Jeff4187
I honestly don't see our marriage recovering from this. The level of anger and threats she's made are like nothing I've ever seen from her. Not to mention that she already seemed to have decided that she wanted a divorce.

Jeff,

Believe me. Your WW said all those things to make you give up and think that exposing to the Army would either be too late or would be the final nail in the coffin. She was afraid of you exposing and did everything she could to MANIPULATE you into not exposing because she knows it will end the affair. Granted, she might file for divorce anyway to either try and save face or punish you, but the affair will be over. You never stood a chance while the affair was ongoing, but you have a chance now.

With you being deployed, won't a divorce take a long time to go through? Won't she still have to behave like a married person in the Army while the process is underway if she does file? Either way, you have bought yourself some time. If there is no OM, she is going to want someone to meet her needs, and you might be the only person legally allowed to. Honestly, once their CO's find out and there is not contact between her and OM, her anger will blow over after a few weeks/months and you'll notice her attitude may change.

Let's just put it this way. I thought my marriage was over once I exposed, but that was over 4 years ago and I'm still married. You'd be surprised how much your WW changes once she is no longer in contact w/ OM.
Posted By: believer Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 03:38 PM
I'm sure she will threaten divorce, because they all do after exposure. She will tell you that you've gone crazy, you are controlling, you went about it the wrong way, how could you do that to OM's wife, it is none of your business, this is the straw that broke the camel's back, and my very favorite - she will never trust you again.

On the other hand, after exposure, the OM often will end the affair because it is too much trouble for him.

That is what we will hope for.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 03:45 PM
Originally Posted by Jeff4187
Originally Posted by believer
Prepare for her to be very angry.


Well she said she didn't want to talk to me, that I could talk to her lawyer on the phone. Then she sent me a bunch of short nasty emails. Should I assume that she's not done talking then? That she won't just clam up and try to file for divorce?

She's angry and trying to bait you into a fight. When I exposed, my WW left the yellow pages open on the divorce lawyer page for me to see it. She was very passive aggressive in an attempt to "get back at me" for exposing. She's just trying to punish you for exposing. I would try to take everything she says right now with a grain of salt. She's just flailing and lashing out as she approaches bottom. Let her anger subside for a few weeks before getting drawn into much conversation with her. Don't explain why you did what you did or try and justify your actions. That's just going to make her angrier. Just say something about, "I'm sorry you feel that way." If she keeps sending nasty messages ingnore them until she sends something nicer. Don't get sucked into a back and forth nasty message war. Stay strong, calm, and collected.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 03:51 PM
Originally Posted by jmwc95
Originally Posted by Jeff4187
I honestly don't see our marriage recovering from this. The level of anger and threats she's made are like nothing I've ever seen from her. Not to mention that she already seemed to have decided that she wanted a divorce.

Jeff,

Believe me. Your WW said all those things to make you give up and think that exposing to the Army would either be too late or would be the final nail in the coffin. She was afraid of you exposing and did everything she could to MANIPULATE you into not exposing because she knows it will end the affair. Granted, she might file for divorce anyway to either try and save face or punish you, but the affair will be over. You never stood a chance while the affair was ongoing, but you have a chance now.

With you being deployed, won't a divorce take a long time to go through? Won't she still have to behave like a married person in the Army while the process is underway if she does file? Either way, you have bought yourself some time. If there is no OM, she is going to want someone to meet her needs, and you might be the only person legally allowed to. Honestly, once their CO's find out and there is not contact between her and OM, her anger will blow over after a few weeks/months and you'll notice her attitude may change.

Let's just put it this way. I thought my marriage was over once I exposed, but that was over 4 years ago and I'm still married. You'd be surprised how much your WW changes once she is no longer in contact w/ OM.

Yes, she can't even serve me with divorce papers while I'm in Afghanistan, I'm legally protected from that. So I have 3 months.

So no contact with her until she calms down?
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 04:10 PM
Originally Posted by Jeff4187
Yes, she can't even serve me with divorce papers while I'm in Afghanistan, I'm legally protected from that. So I have 3 months.

So no contact with her until she calms down?

Our advice is usually to Plan A your W, but plan B your WW. So, if she contacts you in a civilized manner talking about something other than wanting to divorce you, then I would respond back to her. If she just leaves nasty messages or wants to fight, then ignore her. She'll eventually learn that she will only be able to talk to you if she does so in a respectful manner. Otherwise, she'll get ignored. As for relationship talk, try to avoid that, and just say things like, "you know where I stand, so I don't want to talk about that right now." Don't talk about the relationship until there is at least 6 weeks of verified NC w/ OM and you have made enough love bank deposits where she isn't talking about leaving anymore. Even then, tip-toe lightly and table the talk before any arguments arise. Focus more on meeting ENs and avoiding LBs.

3 months is also a good time because she will likely get through most of withdrawal before you get back, and that can be awful for the BS. I think having some friends back home keeping an eye out for your WW would be a good idea because when the affair ends, the WS usually either goes back to their BS, or finds some other OM. You want to make sure she just doesn't move on to some other OM before you get back. If not, then I think you have a pretty good chance.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 04:15 PM
Even when I get back in 3 months, we don't live at the same place. She's waiting to start her branch school and I'm at my permanent duty station. She's supposed to come to live with me when she's done with school, that's been our plan for 2 years. However, that's certainly not her plan anymore. So if I go 3 months without hearing from her, and then go back home, then what? Fly out to go talk to her face to face? This situation is unique in that we haven't actually lived together in nearly 2 years, and if we don't manage to band-aid it up at least a little bit between now and say, October, we probably never will get the chance to live together.

And I have no friends where she is to "keep an eye on her." She's not accountable to anyone, that's part of the problem. Why would she leave her super happy affair for what must seem like nothing for her. Loneliness. There's no one there to support her or make her stick to NC with the OM. I think that's why she lasted 3 days after we went through a bunch of the MB stuff.
Posted By: ouchthathurt Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 04:40 PM
You're not experienced in the affair time line yet. The OM will most definitely throw her under the bus. This is his career and family. Your wife is not part of the equation if he risks losing it all. She is in the fog right now. It will clear. Then, if she wants a divorce it will be with a clear head.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 04:52 PM
Is it wrong that makes me feel like "leftovers" or the "fallback guy?" Once she's rejected by him then she'll settle for me again?
Posted By: ouchthathurt Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 05:01 PM
That's part of the battle you have to fight. Whether you want her again. You may not. But the first thing that must be done is the affair must be killed to find out. Frankly she doesn't deserve you. You are a major catch (or maybe a captain catch). You will have to beat the ladies away with a stick.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 05:06 PM
Originally Posted by ouchthathurt
That's part of the battle you have to fight. Whether you want her again. You may not. But the first thing that must be done is the affair must be killed to find out. Frankly she doesn't deserve you. You are a major catch (or maybe a captain catch). You will have to beat the ladies away with a stick.

My friends have been reminding me how I used to date 4 different girls 4 nights a week. But when I met my WW, I thought all that was over. She was challenging and different. Turns out she was way more challenging that I ever could have guessed. I don't want to be single again. frown
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 05:16 PM
Originally Posted by Jeff4187
Even when I get back in 3 months, we don't live at the same place. She's waiting to start her branch school and I'm at my permanent duty station. She's supposed to come to live with me when she's done with school, that's been our plan for 2 years. However, that's certainly not her plan anymore. So if I go 3 months without hearing from her, and then go back home, then what? Fly out to go talk to her face to face? This situation is unique in that we haven't actually lived together in nearly 2 years, and if we don't manage to band-aid it up at least a little bit between now and say, October, we probably never will get the chance to live together.

And I have no friends where she is to "keep an eye on her." She's not accountable to anyone, that's part of the problem. Why would she leave her super happy affair for what must seem like nothing for her. Loneliness. There's no one there to support her or make her stick to NC with the OM. I think that's why she lasted 3 days after we went through a bunch of the MB stuff.

IF your marriage is going to survive, then you can't live apart again. When your 3 months is up, I would suggest either working something out where you live together or call it quits. Your WW has shown her desire to get her needs met, and you can't possibly meet them if you don't live together. You'll have to make the decision of making changes to your plan or moving on with your life. You are only 25 and you don't have kids together, so it might just be a good idea to move on if you can't change your living arrangements. Long distance relationships for several years are just bound to fail.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 05:32 PM
Like I said, she'll be done with her training in october. So the plan was for her to come live with me then, permanently. Obviously once I'm back in the states I can visit her frequently for August and September until she's able to come live with me.
Posted By: ouchthathurt Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 05:42 PM
One thing at a time Jeff. Better that you don't mention anything about the relationship, let her talk about it. Your not the one who changed. Trust me, the less you say, the faster her fog will clear. Just be the man she you were when she first met.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 05:52 PM
Originally Posted by Jeff4187
Like I said, she'll be done with her training in october. So the plan was for her to come live with me then, permanently. Obviously once I'm back in the states I can visit her frequently for August and September until she's able to come live with me.

Okay, that's not much longer. I was thinking it was going to be a lot longer than that. That may be manageable once she gets through withdrawal from OM.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 06:22 PM
Hi Jeff,

Thanks for your service! You're getting some great advice here... stick with your guns and don't get into any relationship discussions with your W while you're deployed. Stay focused on your soldiers and your mission!

I suspect that once the various Cdr's open their e-mail tomorrow morning that several things will happen:

1 - Your W and OM will soon have an office call with at least their BN Cdr... possibly the Bde Cdr ... and in some instances, if the CG reserves the right, they might even have to talk to the CG of their installaion. I know that in Afghanistan that the CG reserves the right to prosecute Officers for misconduct... probably the same thing here in Iraq, but I haven't checked...

2 - Both Cdrs will appoint an investigating officer to conduct an Article 32 investigation based on your exposure letter.

3 - Your W and the OM will be questioned under oath. If they lie under oath, (this is what usually gets adulterers), then their career is finished. I suspect that they will most likely lie since you said that there was already an investigation... If during the course of the investigation it is determined that either one of them lied, then their careers are finished. (Do you happen to have e-mail discussions between your W and you where you are discussing the A? If so, send a copy to both Cdrs!)

4 - As a minimum, even if the investigation doesn't find any "conclusive" proof, they most likely will receive a General Officer Letter of Reprimand which will follow them around for the rest of their "career".

You are doing the right thing here... don't worry about your W's "career"... she's the one that ended her Army career... not you! Same with the OM. He knew the risks and your actions have nothing to do with the outcome of his career. (Personally, I hope he gets kicked out with 19.5 years in and zipo for a retirement!)

I have no words for a "man", much less a brother officer that would fool around with a deployed soldier's wife... He is not fit to wear the same uniform that you and other great Americans are wearing!

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Pepperband Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 06:49 PM
RIF you ROCK

RIFROCKS
Posted By: ouchthathurt Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 06:59 PM
Rif is right. You may decide to forgive her and reconcile at some point, but when she contacts you, And goes ballistic. Let her fume, let her rail. The whole point is, when she here's from command on this, It will be like a 100,000 watt light bulb on the affair. It is important that "someone else" confronts her on this. When she has brass holding a mirror up to her. She will see the light. Not about her staying with you, about her conduct. At some point when the hammer comes down, she will call and explode. Let her just blow. When she is finished. Tell her one thing in a very calm voice. "You have broken two of the most important vows you can make in life. The first is when you broke your marriage vow to me, the second is when you broke the faith with a fellow soldier. You are not fit to command let alone serve in the army". I hope you continue to seek advice and support from the others here. I believe it can help you heal and maybe even restore your marriage.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 07:46 PM
Jeff,

You said
Quote
But she almost always ended up saying I was a great person, she feels terrible for what she's put me through, and I deserve to be with another great person, not someone like her.
Well, at least she got something right in all of this. smile

There is a famous saying that you really need to take on board in your mind.
Quote
The opposite of love is not hate, it is indifference.


Despite all of her yelling and screaming, you need to realize she is still attached to you at least a little. Exposure almost AWLWAYS brings the reaction you are seeing, and when her CO and people in the command chain get ahold of he and OM, then there really will be screaming and there should be. You are taking away crack from an addict and they don't like you messing with their addiction.

Since this happened before in OCS, I am betting the ARmy will not be very "sensitve" to their positions on this as being just friends. Further, if you have emails detailing what she has told you and said to you, keep them and make them available to the chain of command.

I would again like to suggest that you see the chaplain on your post. You will probably need a real person to talk to and talk out many things.

Hang in there, the war has just begun and this is just the first battle. Focus on yourself and your job right now.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: Vittoria Re: WW waffling between us - 04/18/10 10:04 PM
Originally Posted by RIF
I suspect that once the various Cdr's open their e-mail tomorrow morning that several things will happen:

1 - Your W and OM will soon have an office call with at least their BN Cdr... possibly the Bde Cdr ... and in some instances, if the CG reserves the right, they might even have to talk to the CG of their installaion. I know that in Afghanistan that the CG reserves the right to prosecute Officers for misconduct... probably the same thing here in Iraq, but I haven't checked...

2 - Both Cdrs will appoint an investigating officer to conduct an Article 32 investigation based on your exposure letter.

3 - Your W and the OM will be questioned under oath. If they lie under oath, (this is what usually gets adulterers), then their career is finished. I suspect that they will most likely lie since you said that there was already an investigation... If during the course of the investigation it is determined that either one of them lied, then their careers are finished. (Do you happen to have e-mail discussions between your W and you where you are discussing the A? If so, send a copy to both Cdrs!)

4 - As a minimum, even if the investigation doesn't find any "conclusive" proof, they most likely will receive a General Officer Letter of Reprimand which will follow them around for the rest of their "career".
This is great info on the fallout of exposing in the army.
This is my 'what I've learned today' post, and will tuck this away for future reference.

Good luck to you Jeff, you are in very good hands here!
Take care of you, and yes, thank you for your service in the army.

And take note ...... you are in no way responsible for your WW's choice to have an A.
She decided to let someone else meet her needs, and allowed it to progress one step further, then another, and then another.....


Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 02:40 AM
Well she wrote me again, accusing me of threatening her, and being use under-handed sneaky attack-mode tactics with her family and friends. She says they have rallied to her support over all of this, and encouraged her to file for divorce immediately, and that her mother fears that I might physically harm her. (Absolutely ludicrous, I've never been a violent person in any regard. She says I told them a half-story and that once they heard what she had to say they would never be on my side.

She finished with: "At least you have made this all easier for me, cuz there is definitely no way we are going to work it out now, and I will be hard put trying to regret not being married to someone who seems to have completely jumped off the deep end of crazy. "

If there is another half to this story, I simply don't know it. I didn't lie or tell any half-truths to her family or friends.

She also sent: "I will send you those t-shirts tomorrow if you still need them. I'm doing this because you are deployed and your parents do not have access to them. Don't take this as some sort of sign that we are all going to be peachy after all of this"

I replied with: "Thank you for sending the t-shirts. I'm sorry you feel like me telling the entire truth about what I know is under-handed. I haven't lied about anything, and have tried to be fully open and honest with you and everyone else involved, for the sake of our marriage and my own integrity. "
Posted By: AnnaBelleRose Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 02:43 AM
yeah, I heard that spew too about half-truths.... wayward spew. Don't let it get to you.
Posted By: karmasrose Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 02:51 AM
Right, and you're going to physically harm her from how many miles away?

Ludicrous of her.

This is her private A world blowing up.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 02:55 AM
Originally Posted by Jeff4187
Well she wrote me again, accusing me of threatening her, and being use under-handed sneaky attack-mode tactics with her family and friends. She says they have rallied to her support over all of this, and encouraged her to file for divorce immediately, and that her mother fears that I might physically harm her. (Absolutely ludicrous, I've never been a violent person in any regard. She says I told them a half-story and that once they heard what she had to say they would never be on my side.

She finished with: "At least you have made this all easier for me, cuz there is definitely no way we are going to work it out now, and I will be hard put trying to regret not being married to someone who seems to have completely jumped off the deep end of crazy. "

If there is another half to this story, I simply don't know it. I didn't lie or tell any half-truths to her family or friends.

She also sent: "I will send you those t-shirts tomorrow if you still need them. I'm doing this because you are deployed and your parents do not have access to them. Don't take this as some sort of sign that we are all going to be peachy after all of this"

I replied with: "Thank you for sending the t-shirts. I'm sorry you feel like me telling the entire truth about what I know is under-handed. I haven't lied about anything, and have tried to be fully open and honest with you and everyone else involved, for the sake of our marriage and my own integrity. "

I wouldn't even respond to her accusations. I would have left it at thank you for the shirts and completely ignored the rest. That would have left her fuming to not get any kind of rise out of you.

If you think that's bad, just wait until tomorrow. She's going to be livid.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 03:00 AM
Good Morning Jeff!

Everything she said in her e-mail(s) is just smoke and mirrors... she's lashing out at you because she knows her little fantasy is about to burst.

Your reply was good. It would have been better if you'd said:

"Thanks for the T-shrits."


Again, I know it's hard, but try to stay away from ANY relationship discussions. You're not going to sway her at all by trying to reason with her. Just show her kindness and nothing more. Don't get baited into the "Yes I am" - "No you're no" discussions.

Her friend and family MAY be on her side, but for now, they are of no concern to you. Your first priority is exposing the A to their Cdrs. I suspect that your W is in severe damage control mode with her friends and family and is spinning everything in HER favor. Again, don't get into arguments or try to sway her family... they aren't the main effort here...

Later on this evening their Cdr's should be reading your e-mail and that's when the fantasy bubble is going to pop! Sit back and get ready for some more hateful e-mails... Here are a few samples that you MIGHT see:

"Well, you've done it now... my career is finished. I hope you're happy!"


"I'll never forgive you!"


"You just blew your last chance with me!"


"I can't believe that I ever loved you"

...and if she really wants to get really nasty with you, be prepared for some sexual details from her A about how "good" the OM is and how "horrible" you are, blah blah blah blah... it will only be an attempt to "hurt" you. Yes, those comments will hurt, but recognize them for what they are... a poor attempt to lash out at the person that just spoiled her "fun"...

Don't buy into any of her drivle... Like JL said, the opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference!

You are doing great here! I would keep snooping and see if you can expose this A to the OM's wife. OM will most likely tell his W that some nut-job is telling lies about him and now it's affecting his job (OM's motive: throw hiw W off the trail that he's been a bad boy, and make himself out to be the victim)

If you can get actual proof (remember those e-mails I asked you about) to OM's wife, I suspect that you will nail the coffin shut on the OM... Career down the tubes, and you'll have another set of "eyes" to keep OM away from your W.

I've got to head to work in a little bit. We're 1.5 hrs behind you here in Iraq so I won't have a chance to get back on until later on this evening... by then, we sould be able to see some smoke from your e-mails.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: ouchthathurt Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 03:13 AM
Her husband is in Afghanistan serving his country, while she is here carrying on an affair. Her commanders will come at her hard and fast. They can't do anything when a civilian cheats on their spouse who is serving over seas. But there will be some major smoke coming out of their ears about a brother officer being cheated on by another officer. After all these soldiers give being in a (s) hole like Afghanistan, to be betrayed by their spouses here, deserves the full weight of the UCMJ coming down on them.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 03:23 AM
She replied with:
" like how u think that telling my people a very, small portion of our story is telling the whole truth. Like i said, i hope that works out for u. My peopleknow the whole actual truth, not the short version that u tried to 'demonize' me with, and they are all standing behind me.

But i do hope that ur decision to attack me keeps u warm at night"




I'm thinking this the part where I stop replying entirely?
Posted By: disgustedandsad Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 03:25 AM
Hi Jeff - I think you should stop replying. Let her stew.

Just my opinion.
Posted By: believer Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 03:26 AM
Yes, stop replying. Did you read previous posts?
Posted By: turtlehead Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 03:27 AM
For sure.
Don't reply to her insane criticisms and raving lunacy.
Don't talk relationship talk.

If you do interact with her, DO present your best self. Try to meet her ENs as much as you can. Avoid LBs. As furious as she is, and as addicted to OM as she is, you won't be making any deposits in her LB$... but you can be presenting yourself as an attractive spouse.

Right now she's telling herself every little thing you ever did wrong, plus she's making up a few. And she's telling herself how wonderful OM is and how you've cheated her out of "true looove".

Your job is to avoid giving her more fuel for her insane self-talk. Be an attractive spouse (meet ENs). Avoid LBs. Don't talk relationship talk.

GREAT job on exposure. Did you ever get hold of OM's wife?
Posted By: ouchthathurt Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 03:38 AM
If they stand behind her, I will wager it is because of blood. But between themselves they are likely condemning her action. I imagine her "whole actual truth" are embellishments based on a spoiled child's "feelings" and not based in reality. When her commanders hear her "whole actual truth", I think the response she gets will be slightly less supportive. Why? Because they are going to ask her, "did you commit adultery with lt. so and so. Now think hard about your answer, because we have documentary evidence and there will be a full investigation and interrogation. and if you lie your career is over". That is the only part of the "whole truth" they will be interested in.
Posted By: _Larry_ Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 03:45 AM

RIF has provided you with absolutely first rate advice.

Mortarman was a former poster on here He said:

Originally Posted by mortarman
The IG is a great tool, that not many people take advantage of. Why is it a great tool? Well, first off, it is against the law in the military. Second, the IG is not in the chain of command. The IG works directly for the Commanding General. So, unlike some commands that sweep some things under the rug, the IG wont (and cannot) sweep ANYTHING under the rug. They must investigate.

In my opinion, after 4 years as an IG, that if you are a spouse of a military member, or the OP is a member of the military, then the UCMJ is your friend!! By going to the IG, the WS or OP's commander will be ordered by the commanding general to take action. At the very least, the adulterous service member will be ordered not to have anything to do with the person they are sleeping with until they are divorced. And if they ignore that order? Well, that's jail time and a dishonorable discharge. At best, if the two infidels are in the chain of command with each other, then they will be court marshaled.

One of his threads is here:

mortarman

He has more to say at the linked thread.


Perhaps RIF will have something to say about IG Corp and the possibility of using that route if Command won't do anything as a result of your exposure to them currently. Keep in mind that if there is no solid proof as it exists, IG will investigate and Command can investigate, if I understand what mortarman has said.

Larry

Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 04:31 AM
My understanding is that adultery can't really be proven without sworn statements by the adulterers admitting it, or photographs of them having sex. They can dismiss the phone records as being "just friends" that like to talk a lot.
Posted By: _Larry_ Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 04:58 AM

Sure and you are correct, legally. According to Ex-IG mortarman, the CG can order stuff based on IG investigation which is what he stresses. At least that is what I think he said. Has she ever admitted it to you in an email?

Larry

Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 09:31 AM
I'm not sure. When I first confronted her, she only wanted to talk about things on the phone and said she didn't want to ever put things in writing. During her brief moments of wanting to save the marriage, she may have written some things about it. I'd have to read back through all the emails to be sure, and I just don't feel like doing that right now.

My stomach is doing backflips right now, waiting for the other shoe to drop in a few hours.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 09:57 AM
Hey Jeff,

On my lunch break and thought I'd check in...

By all means, DO NOT REPLY to her e-mail!!! You knew this was coming, and in about 4-5 more hours, the e-mails will really start flying!!! twoxfour You'll be the worst person walking the face of the earth once her adultery is exposed.

You are correct in that in order to charge someone under Article 134 (Adultery) that they will eiter need a signed confession or photos of the act. That's why I suggested providing your e-mail correspondence between your W and you to the respective Cdrs. I suspect that your W and the OM both are both "smart" enough to NOT correspond with each other on a government computer, but you never know.

If the Cmdr starts the Article 32 investigation, the investigating officer will more than likely "search" your W's computer and the OM's computer. Pretty much standard procedure in an investigation like this. IF they were stupid enough to use their govt. computer for their little "lurve chats", then the invesigation will bear this out.

At a minimum, they will both have been exposed for conduct unbecoming of an officer (a violation of Article 133). They will also most likely be ordered to cease all contact by phone, person, e-mail, etc.... so this will really bust up her affair bubble!

Again, prepare yourself for the angry hateful e-mails, because they will be heading your way in about 4-5 hrs. Don't let these e-mails get you down. You know what to expect... You've got the enemy's order of battle and you know their next move...

I would still highly recommend getting the OM's wife's name and address and expose the A to her ASAP! She will be one of your biggest allies in ensuring NC. (Think about it, SHE's the one that's going to be penalized if dear hubby gets himself kicked out of the Army with 19.5 years and no retirement!!!) rotflmao

...a nice thought for OM, but sad for his family... but hey, I have no compassion for a brother "officer" that would mess around with another soldier's wife while he's deloyed, so if that's the price OM has to pay, then so be it. (please, no RIF you're just mean comments!)

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 10:03 AM
I have no way to get the OM wife's address. I have her name, I know they're at Fort Sill (so on post or in Lawton, OK) but I can't get anything better than that. I've even tried some of "people search" web sites where I paid to do a thorough search. The only way I'm going to get a hold of her is if I can find someone @ Fort Sill that knows her, or can find her.

Her friend that I talked to at length 2 nights ago un-friended me on facebook without warning or correspondence. This is after we discussed everything and she agreed to talk to my wife to get her side. I'm now seriously wondering what my WW is telling people I've done.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 10:36 AM
Hey Jeff - Get your Cdr to give the Ft. Sill Garrison Cdr a call... I'm pretty sure that they can find an address...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 10:42 AM
Originally Posted by RIF
Hey Jeff - Get your Cdr to give the Ft. Sill Garrison Cdr a call... I'm pretty sure that they can find an address...

Semper Fi,

RIF

It doesn't seem likely that the command would have any interest in notifying the spouse of what is going on. Their interest is in military personnel. Am I wrong in thinking this?
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 10:47 AM
Hi Jeff,

Have you talked with your commander? If not, then I would and ask for his help.

A deployed soldier needs to be 100% mission focused and this is definitely affecting you... so it is a command "problem" that 99.99% of the commanders that I know would step in and help.

Mission readiness includes both the soldier and the spouse (even if the couple is dual military)...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 10:51 AM
I have no company commander back at Fort Polk (went to SFAS) and I'm the XO. My BN commander hasn't responded to my emails or calls for a couple months now. My supervisor here is fully aware of the situation, but he's an Air Force LTC. I'm not sure he can just call up the garrison commander at Fort Sill and get an address...
Posted By: TheRoad Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 10:53 AM
Don't guess if your boss can call, ask him to call.

Don't respond to WW rants.

Good job.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 10:55 AM
Well the boss and I are both waiting to see how everyone in their CoC responds to the email in the next few hours... I'm sure he wouldn't want to take any action until we see what they all do.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 11:37 AM
Hi Jeff,

Please use the following contact information and call/e-mail the Ft. Polk IG now!!!

Explian your situation to them and ask them to please represent you to the Commanding General since you are part of HIS command, even though you are deployed. Let them know that you've tried to go thorugh your C-of-C, but haven't been able to contact your Company Cdr, or BN Cdr... Also CC your downrange Cdr/OIC in the contact e-mail.

Be as specific as you can with who, what, when, and where... again, this is a MISSION READINESS issue and they WILL take this seriously.

I suspect that you will get some quick results!

Semper Fi,

RIF



Inspector General

1878 15th Street, Bldg 1943

Fort Polk, LA 71459
To contact us:
Phone: (337) 531-2100/7878

DSN: 863-2100/7878

Fax: (337) 531-4695

E-mail: polk.ig@conus.army.mil
Mission:
Department of the Army IG

800-752-9747
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 11:53 AM
Well I emailed my BDE commander, who is a great guy from what I know of him. He knows me personally. So I'll give him a chance to do what needs to be done as far as representing me. My BN commander will no doubt go nuts that I bypassed him, as he has in the past when he's ignored me for weeks and I've gone above him.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 12:47 PM
Hey Jeff,

Good for you! Hopefully your Bde Cdr can help apply some pressure...

Give your C-of-C (Bde Cdr) time to work this for you... if you don't get any action, then CC him on your e-mail to the IG.

Semper fi,

RIF
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 01:27 PM
Originally Posted by Jeff4187
I have no way to get the OM wife's address. I have her name, I know they're at Fort Sill (so on post or in Lawton, OK) but I can't get anything better than that. I've even tried some of "people search" web sites where I paid to do a thorough search. The only way I'm going to get a hold of her is if I can find someone @ Fort Sill that knows her, or can find her.

Her friend that I talked to at length 2 nights ago un-friended me on facebook without warning or correspondence. This is after we discussed everything and she agreed to talk to my wife to get her side. I'm now seriously wondering what my WW is telling people I've done.

There are PI's or information websites (intellius.com) that can track down this information and much more for about $150 or less. I definitely would not give up so easy on finding OMW. She can be the biggest ally at ending the affair.

Also, what are the rules about taping conversations in the military? If she would never put anything in writing, can you get her to admit it on the phone and use that as evidence? I know you are in Afghanistan where there aren't Radio Shack's readily available, but I'm sure you could figure out something, like recording on speaker or having someone back home send you a recorder.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 01:58 PM
I got a response from my BN commander. Apparently he's been sending emails for a while and I haven't been receiving them. He wants the actual phone bills as evidence (I sent them condensed phone logs that I created.) He also said that a sworn statement by me explaining what my wife said about the affair would go far when combined with the phone bills.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 02:02 PM
Hey Jeff - It's 0900 at Ft. Sill... any vile e-mail mssgs yet?

Remember, you EXPECT these e-mails, so please try not to let them get to you... stick with your original OPORD and don't let her "FRAGOs" rattle you.

Hopefully your Bde Cdr will get back with you quickly. I'd give him at least a day or so to work on it, then I'd send him another e-mail if you haven't heard back from him to let him know that due to the seriousness of the situation, and the timely intervention needed to save your marriage, that you are going to the IG. (You can use the Ft. Polk IG, or the IG there in A-Stan...either one should be able to help you)

Hiring a PI is also another good idea, though it might be hard for him to gain access to the base... I'd think this through before hiring one. My concern would be if the PI is caught snooping around and the MP's learn that you've hired him, it may negatively impact your case. A PI is going to stick out like a sore thumb, especially if he's hanging around office building/barracks/BOQs/or housing areas.

Semper Fi,

RIF

PS - Here's the "mission statement" for the IG at Ft. Polk:

Quote
Mission:

On a continuing basis, the Inspector General, JRTC and Fort Polk, determines the state of economy, efficiency, discipline, and readiness throughout the command as directed by the commanding general, and provides assistance, on an area basis, to commanders, soldiers, family members, civilian employees, retirees, and others who seek help with problems related to the U. S. Army, so as to facilitate efficiencies and combat readiness.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 02:03 PM
Hoooah!!!
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 02:28 PM
It seems like they intend to get their ducks in a row before they call anyone onto the carpet. So the angry emails may take a few days. In the meantime I've managed to find another LT at Fort Sill that's willing to help me track down the OMW.
Posted By: turtlehead Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 02:38 PM
Just wanted to say I'm impressed with what an awesome job you're doing with exposure and getting everything rolling.

Your WW is going to have an absolute duck when all of this hits the fan. Expect that, don't let it ruffle you. Stick to your plan (meet ENs, avoid LBs, no relationship talk, full exposure).

You are doing unbelievably well.
Posted By: _Larry_ Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 02:46 PM
Jeff/RIF

Is my possible understanding of mortarman's posts that from his perspective as an Ex-IG, adultery affects combat readiness. So it is the business of IG to get involved.

Is that right?

Larry
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 02:53 PM
HiJeff,


Glad that you've found an ally to help you find the OM's wife! Keep pressing, then expose with everything you've got as quickly as you can... If OM suspects (which he probably does by now) He's already told a ton of lies to his wife and let her know to "expect" a psyco LT to send her an e-mail or letter or phone call... That's why you've got to give the OM's W all the evidence you have.

By any chance is the OM an instructor at Ft. Sill, and your W a student???

If so, this would be a HUGE no-no! There are clear orders against instructor/student relationships at ALL military schools (Basic Training, AIT, OBC, CCC, ILE, etc)... so if OM is an instructor, and your wife is a student, the command will most likely go for a violation of Article 92... since it's MUCH easier to prove than Article 134.

Here are the maximum punishments for Article 92 - Failure to Obey a Lawful Order:

Maximum punishment.

(1) Violation or failure to obey lawful general order or regulation. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 2 years.

(2) Violation of failure to obey other lawful order. Bad-conduct discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 6 months.

I do believe that a DD & a BCD carry a federal felony status with it so it will definitely affect their life AFTER their "great" military careers...

Most likely they would get an Other Than Honorable discharge, which isn't as damaging, but still limits some of the benifits that they can claim.

That's probably why they're wanting to get their "ducks in a row"... then they'll come down on them both with both boots!



Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 02:58 PM
Hi Larry,

Quote
Is my possible understanding of mortarman's posts that from his perspective as an Ex-IG, adultery affects combat readiness. So it is the business of IG to get involved.

Is that right?


Exactly! see my quote above of the IG's Mission Statement from the Ft. Polk IG...

It's always best to use the C-of-C first... then if you don't get satisfaction from them, you go to the IG. Most Commanders that I know/knew would be DEATH on a situation like this...

If Jeff's C-of-C doesn't handle this quickly, then he can still go to the IG...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: _Larry_ Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 03:12 PM
Thanks RIF. I read your IG mission statement. I have read the same words at other posts during research. I wanted to make sure I understand exactly how IG gets involved and why.

I was in for three years as an EM in a specialized unit. So I have some concept of how things work in the Army. But not nearly as much as you guys.

If my understanding is correct, the IG reports directly to the CG, who then directs lower command to do whatever CG wants them to do and they say, "Yes Sir (or ma'am) and do it.

One military forum post I saw and can't find again, said something about the direct report not being happy the CG directive landed on his desk and he tried to pull something later on with a review. In that case, the next report on up the ladder "Corrected" the review and sent it back down to be written again. Military review language is beyond my ability to interpret. smile

Larry
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 03:22 PM
BN commander asked for any emails containing admissions, but there are none. She was very careful not to put anything in writing, and in several emails asked me to call her because she wanted to discuss things that she wasn't willing to put in writing.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 03:34 PM
Quote
...and in several emails asked me to call her because she wanted to discuss things that she wasn't willing to put in writing.


Send these e-mails even if they don't have any reference to the OM or an affair...they will still show a PATTERN.

Also, send the e-mails where she was blasting you and telling you about "informing" her family and friends and how "they all support her"...

These e-mails can be used by the Article 32 investigating officer to come up with questions to ask your W and the OM. Like I said before, most soldiers don't get in "trouble" for adultery... they get in trouble for lying on a sworn statement during the investigation.

Oh, you never did say if OM is an instructor an if your W is a student... I thin that will make a HUGE difference in how the command handles this.

Also, if you haven't done it yet, fill out a DA Form 2823 (Sworn Statement) and have it signed by your commander... then send that to your BN Cdr... Be as specific as you can (names, dates, times, places, conversations, etc) Again, this will help the investigating officer come up with questions to ask OM and W...

Then THEY will have to choose to either lie on their sworn statements, or admit their guilt... most likely they will lie... but again, your goal is to break up the A, not destroy them (even though this, may in fact, ruin their careers)


Semper Fi,

RIF

Posted By: ouchthathurt Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 03:41 PM
You can't tape the conversations?
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 03:46 PM
Originally Posted by ouchthathurt
You can't tape the conversations?

I agree, anytime she asks to call you for something she can't put in writing, that should be your key to taping the conversation if allowed by law.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 03:48 PM
No, it was not a teacher student relationship.

And I feel very very wary of forwarding her personal attacks against me to my commander.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 04:11 PM
Originally Posted by Jeff4187
No, it was not a teacher student relationship.

And I feel very very wary of forwarding her personal attacks against me to my commander.

Why?
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 04:13 PM
A courageous LT has the evidence and a letter from me to the OMW in hand now. He'll be hand delivering it to her home later today. The support I've gotten from so many places to pull this together has been amazing.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 04:14 PM
Originally Posted by jmwc95
Originally Posted by Jeff4187
No, it was not a teacher student relationship.

And I feel very very wary of forwarding her personal attacks against me to my commander.

Why?


Because I don't see how they can benefit the investigation at all, and they're very personal and hurtful.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 04:28 PM
Originally Posted by Jeff4187
Originally Posted by jmwc95
Originally Posted by Jeff4187
No, it was not a teacher student relationship.

And I feel very very wary of forwarding her personal attacks against me to my commander.

Why?


Because I don't see how they can benefit the investigation at all, and they're very personal and hurtful.

RIF told you how any email that references the "alledged" adultery can be helpful. If you are going to expose, don't hold back. Now you don't have to forward every email, but I would certainly forward the ones that have veiled references between her and OM's relationship.

As for the hurtful aspect of the emails, I know it's easy to say and hard to do, but don't let her WORDS hurt you. Yes, you can certainly be hurt by her ACTIONS, but try not to listen to the WORDS of a floundering ADDICT because they don't mean what they are saying. She is just using her words to try and manipulate you into allowing her continued access to her DRUG. It got to a point where I would just laugh at what my WW said because I thought it was so pathetic.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 04:31 PM
Well, the chains of command have been notified, and the wife will be notified soon. All within 8 hours of each other. Except for exposing all of this when I first discovered it, I don't think the truth gets any more "tsunami"-like than this.
Posted By: believer Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 04:32 PM
Once the wife knows, she will call hubby, and he will call your wife, and she will communicate with YOU. Be prepared for her wrath.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 04:36 PM
I'm not answering the phone. Or replying to emails.
Posted By: believer Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 04:41 PM
Good. Just stick with us.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 04:41 PM
Originally Posted by Jeff4187
Well, the chains of command have been notified, and the wife will be notified soon. All within 8 hours of each other. Except for exposing all of this when I first discovered it, I don't think the truth gets any more "tsunami"-like than this.

Brace yourself.

What I would advise you to do in the emotionally traumatic few weeks of post-exposure you are about to endure, is to start a thread asking others what their WW's said and did immediately after exposure. That way your mind can better compartmentalize and rationalize what she is saying. It won't hurt you as much when she says the things she is going to say when you already know she is following the exact same script as all other WWs. That way you know it is the ADDICTION causing her to say these things, and it's not you. You need to understand, all that she says has NOTHING to do with you and your marriage and has everything to do with an ADDICTION. Try to do things for yourself and lean on some buddies during this time because she is going to do everything she can to hurt you. Don't let her. Breathe deep, relax, and don't let her suck you in to any arguments or relationship talks.

Also, when you said "the wife" will be notified, did you mean OMW or your WW? OMW is a still a key exposure target that will help keep OM from breaking a cease and desist order.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 04:44 PM
I've already recognized that she's been following the WW script for a while. I've even told her that. She KNOWS that. She's read the various MB articles. But that doesn't make her able to see it herself.

I still have serious doubts that our marriage will ever recover from the [censored] that's about to ensue. But I'll be able to walk away with my head held high, knowing I did the right thing, and fought for my marriage until the end.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 04:46 PM
Originally Posted by Jeff4187
I still have serious doubts that our marriage will ever recover from the [censored] that's about to ensue. But I'll be able to walk away with my head held high, knowing I did the right thing, and fought for my marriage until the end.

Don't think about that now. Just let the exposure take it's course. You have no idea what will happen once your WW is through withdrawal of OM.
Posted By: turtlehead Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 05:41 PM
I'm sure you've read on here by now... "It is a marathon, not a sprint." Yeah, there's a storm coming. It will be ugly. It will blow over.

Focus on YOUR goal and YOUR actions.
Do not react to WW and her insanity.
Do not judge the success or failure of your actions by what WW does.
Keep your eye on your goal.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 05:44 PM
Quote
Because I don't see how they can benefit the investigation at all, and they're very personal and hurtful.


Hey Jeff - You're head and shoulders about me in the exposure department! If you've gone back and read any of my old threads (way back in 2002-2005) you'll notice that I never exposed. My "knowledge" of exposure is based on what I've learned here on MB.

I know that it's painful to share these intimate e-mails with your Cdr, but trust me, the investigatng officer will be tasked with coming up with a list of questions, then he will have them checked by the local JAG that's assigned to support the Cdr. The JAG officer will "approve" the questions and add any pertinant questions that might have been left out.

I've conducted two Artcle 32 investigations for Adultery (both of them in Afghanistan, one on my first tour in 2004, and one on my second tour in 2008). I can't tell you how much some e-mails from the BH/BW would have helped me in my investigations... the e-mails from your W will show a PATTERN... that is what the investigating officer is looking for. A PATTERN of behavior that is in violation of Article 134 &/or Article 92.

I was a brand new 2LT assigned to my first overseas duty station when Mrs. RIF had her "first" A. I exposed to her parents and they blamed me... I asked my CO Cdr and BN Cdr what to do and they both told me to divorce her. So I didn't ask them for any more "guidance".

I suspected a 2nd A about a year later... Even confronted the OM (an E-4 in MY unit!!!) and Mrs. RIF.... they both lied to my face. I never brought it to my C-of-C because I was too ashamed and I 'knew' from my first experience that they probably wouldn't help me. This was a different time in the Army, Zero Defects, and many officer's were looking out for themselves... The senior Cdr's that I know and see now are much more in tune with family issues and know how much family issues affect readiness. The fact that you're BN Cdr is helping you is proof of this...

Don't worry about what your Cdr will "think" about you. The biggest "fear" that kept me from exposing Mrs. RIF's second A to my C-of-C was... "If I expose, everyone will KNOW that I'm not enough of a man to keep Mrs. RIF 'satisfied' at home." I'm sure you can think of other "reasons", but honestly, are they worth keeping private if it means that you lose a chance to rebuild your M?

Only you can decide what is right for you... we here on the MB forum will share our life experiences with you and we can coach you on the MB principles based on our own exeperience... but in the end, you must decide what is best for you.

You are in a full blown war for your marriage... use every tool available to you to expose this A and make sure there is no contact between the OM and your W...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 05:58 PM
Quote
I suspected a 2nd A about a year later... Even confronted the OM (an E-4 in MY unit!!!) and Mrs. RIF.... they both lied to my face.

I would have lost my mind. Seriously, I don't know how you dealt with that at all.

I think the exposure to the OMW was the most important thing here. It will almost certainly cause him to drop my WW in half a second.

There's no way they'll get convicted of Adultery. There's just no evidence for that. But they could easily be caught lying when asked to explain the circumstances of their relationship and phone calls.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 06:25 PM
Quote
There's no way they'll get convicted of Adultery. There's just no evidence for that.


I agree 100%!!!

The first investigation that I did resulted in four senior NCO's each receiving a General Officer Letter of Reprimand. They basically all stuck to the same story throughout the investigation, but there was enough circumstatial evidence to warrant the G.O. letters... None of those NCO's will ever be promoted.

The second investigation involved a LTC and a civilian. This one was a little "strange" because the female civilan accused the LTC of rape. The LTC got scared and "confessed" to consensual sex in a combat zone which was a violation of GO#1. He received a General Officer Letter of Reprimand, and was immediately sent home with an "Atlas" OER. He is now divorced, and retired from the reserves. The civilan female was sent home and I don't know what happend to her.

Your goal in all of this is to expose the A in order to end it. It's only human nature to want the OM to pay dearly for his actions, but I wouldn't worry too much about him.... he's going to have his hands full trying to explain things to his own wife and kids!

I know that the others have warned you, as have I, but I can't stress this enough... Don't take the incoming e-mails from your W to heart!!! Don't reply to any of her e-mails and try to 'defend' yourself. If you reply, you might just say something like "I love you sweetie and I will do whatever it takes to save our marriage" Love - Jeff4187

Do a search on "things WW's say" and "reverse babble" and you'll probably have a pretty good list of things that your W will say to you... You can even make a list and start checking them off as she says them! As for the reverse babble, these are things that you can say that will reinforce your stand for saving the M, and it will confuse her to no end!

As for "loosing my mind" during Mrs. RIF's A's... yep, been there done that and got lots of T-shirts! I didn't have MB or anyone to talk with when I was dealing with her A's, and I told myself that if I ever "got through this" that someday, I would help others... Thats why I stick around here and pop in from time to time.

Mrs. RIF and I have a passionate, loving marriage that I never dreamed we would have way back in 1987... It took lots or hard work, lots or tears, lots or hurt and pain, and the grace of Christ, to rebuild our marriage... so even though you feel like nothing will "ever be the same" again, it can be as long as both of you are willing to work at it.

Exposure is the first step in your rebuilding process... Take things one day at at time and please keep us posted on the exposure process.

It's almost 2300hrs in A-Stan and 2130hrs here in Iraq... I'll be up for a little bit longer, but will check back with you in the morning.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: coachswife Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 06:54 PM
Just throwing this out there Jeff- did she sign up and get a user name and password here? If so I would get with someone- may a mod to have that revoked if they can. Otherwise she will see what you are posting here. Not sure if anyone has said this or not.

Thank you for your service as well and I'm sorry you find yourself here.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 07:07 PM
Just a point of info here regarding what CW said...

It doesn't matter if she has a password as all the forums can be read by anyone who happens upon the site with the exceptions of the weekend forums and the private pregnancy forum. A P/W is only required to post here.

Mark
Posted By: Just Learning Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 07:24 PM
Jeff,

Listen to the folks here. Let me also say, that those emails that you don't want to send, are exactly what they will need. Why? YOu are in a combat zone. Your W is in the military and she KNOWS about readiness and combat situations. If she sent you emails ripping your guts out, that does not reflect well on her as a person and even worse on her as an member of the military.

RIF is telling you what MortarMan would tell you. Your goal is not necessarily to get them thrown out of the military although I share RIF's view of what OM is doing and actually what your W has done. Neither of them should be in the military in my humble opinion. However, what she has sent, her requests for you to call because she doesn't want to put it in writing all lead to the conclsion that IF she is willing to rip your guts out in an email, but in willing to put something in writing, it is probably illegal and she is covering her A$$, as well as OM's A$$.

Think about it.

God bless,

JL

PS: Listening to you and RIF is making me feel old. smile I had the horrible thought yesterday while reading your post. It will be 43 years next month since I was commistioned. I simply cannot be that old. faint You are doing well Jeff.
Posted By: _Larry_ Re: WW waffling between us - 04/19/10 10:40 PM
Jeff:

A trained investigator will usually conclude that where there is smoke, there is fire. The emails sent to you reflect that something is going on. They have already been investigated once. Why?

Selected emails will assist the investigator to "Style" their report in one of several ways. Keep in mind that the list of questions will include ones calculated to bring out the truth through getting them to contradict themselves.

You are not the investigator. You are emotionally attached to both the emails and your internal emotions. There is not one soldier who doesn't understand what happens at home (or on R&R) with affairs. The investigator needs a sample of those emails to help them with what they do.

And who knows, OMW may decide to blow the whistle on OM. She may be like one situation on here where OMW said something about this is the third time a "Slut" has been chasing my husband and calling me. uhuh

JL has said it. Take it to the bank, it will cash.

Larry
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 01:55 AM
The OMW has contacted me. She has my evidence and has started uncovering her own, including another secret phone number my wife has. I don't think she's said anything to her husband.
Posted By: believer Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 02:04 AM
Oh, that is such good news! Sometimes the other spouse won't believe there is an affair. Hope you told her about MB.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 02:04 AM
Originally Posted by Jeff4187
The OMW has contacted me. She has my evidence and has started uncovering her own, including another secret phone number my wife has. I don't think she's said anything to her husband.

Great news. It is much harder for the waywards to fight battles on two different fronts. With the two of you keeping tabs on them, it will be much more difficult for them to stay in contact without being discovered.
Posted By: ouchthathurt Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 02:05 AM
Good news! If any news about this can be good.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 02:53 AM
Hooah!

Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 03:45 AM
Hey JL - I was four years old....

Semper Fi!

RIF
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 04:02 AM
Originally Posted by RIF
Hooah!
Ditto!

[tj]
Hey, RIF...

[/tj]
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 04:09 AM
Hey Mark!

Jeff - I'll be around all day today, so please let me know how things are going today, especially if you get any e-mails from your W.

I agree with you that having the OM's W on your side is huge and I would expect things to change very quickly (most likely tomorrow our time)...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Just Learning Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 04:20 AM
RIF,

Quote
Hey JL - I was four years old....


That is sooooooo Wrong on so many levels. smile

At least I had the good sense to go into the AF. MrRollieEyes

I will say that getting out was the hardest thing I ever did. It was like leaving family. My father was a career officer and I grew up in the military moving all over the world. I still feel like I have "gone home" when I go on a military base.

JL
Posted By: Vittoria Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 05:57 AM
Hi Jeff,

Popped in real quick to see how you were making out.
Have only read this last page but it sounds like things are going as they should.

You've done a great job so far, I've read threads where guys twice your age have
waffled back and forth for weeks about exposing. You have integrity, and that is ace.

Adultery has not gotten the better of you, keep this going.
I hope that your realize that you are doing what you vowed to do,
and that is to protect your W.
Right now that happens to be her wayward ways.

Stay strong. smile

p.s. I'm so impressed with the knowledge and support here, from everyone!

Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 06:21 AM
She just sent me an email saying she's sending the divorce paper work, and I can sign it or not, but since I'm intent on making this ugly, I probably won't.

I didn't reply.
Posted By: disgustedandsad Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 06:30 AM
Good job not replying.

You aren't the one making it ugly.
Posted By: saynomore Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 06:39 AM
You are handling this with courage and class, Jeff. My prayers are with you.

God's Blessings,

Say
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 06:42 AM
It seems like she hasn't figured out what's coming yet. Taking that tsunami a while to cross the Pacific.
Posted By: saynomore Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 06:57 AM
You never can tell exactly how she will handle it once it comes. She will be angry and say all of the hateful, predictable things that waywards always say and she will blame you for everything but...will she divorce you or will you be her port in the storm. Hard to tell. You can rest easy in the fact that you have done the right thing though.

God's Blessings,

Say
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 08:00 AM
Hey Jeff,

Very typical... Think about what YOU want... if you don't want to D, then don't sign the papers...

Let her stew for a while and don't even acknlowldge receiving them... stick with "I love you and am willing to fight for our M"...

She still has a long way to go, and I would say that NC hasn't even been started yet... Let the OM's W put pressure on the A, and then let the Command's actions put pressure on the A... She will eventually have to face reality and her head may clear up a bit...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 08:45 AM
Originally Posted by RIF
Hey Jeff,

Very typical... Think about what YOU want... if you don't want to D, then don't sign the papers...

Let her stew for a while and don't even acknlowldge receiving them... stick with "I love you and am willing to fight for our M"...

She still has a long way to go, and I would say that NC hasn't even been started yet... Let the OM's W put pressure on the A, and then let the Command's actions put pressure on the A... She will eventually have to face reality and her head may clear up a bit...

Semper Fi,

RIF


I think she's going to get a lot angrier over the next few days. I just noticed a few missed calls on my cell phone from this morning, she tried to call me before she sent the email. I still don't know if OMW has blown up or left with the kids or what. I won't be signing anything, I'll take any paperwork I get to the SJA, but I don't have to do anything until I get back to the states, and like you said, that's plenty of time for lots of things to happen. I don't even feel like replying to her with "I love you and I'm willing to fight for our marriage" right now because I know it's not going to get through until she starts feeling the consequences of her actions.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 09:57 AM
Yep - It's just starting and it will get worse before it gets better. ...but you are already expecting that right?

I've seen so many people here on the boards throw out the "D" word, and in the end, they wind up working things out. Not going to say that this will be the case in your situation, but until you redeploy and until a divorce is final... then you shouldn' worry about it.

Having said that, just wanted to let you know again that we here will support you in what ever you decide... You're doing great and I would hold off on making any "big" decisions for a while...

Let the exposure work its way through and then give your W some time with NC from the OM.

Did you think about sending any of the 'hurtful' e-mails to your BN Cdr?

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 10:04 AM
Yeah, I sent the most recent chain of emails in which I explain that I can't allow her to continue the affair, and say that I'm sorry I waited 3 weeks to come to this conclusion. She comes back saying I'm crazy, she wants a divorce, I'm trying to demonize her to her friends and family but "we know the truth about what happened here." It was about 12 emails exchanged, her being angry, me being calm and loving.

Is the claims about this only being part of the story, or a half truth about what's happened common? Because I feel like if there's another half, I'm not aware of it.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 10:15 AM
Also I just don't see her forgiving me for betraying her by turning her into her chain of command. Ever.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 10:18 AM
Quote
Is the claims about this only being part of the story, or a half truth about what's happened common? Because I feel like if there's another half, I'm not aware of it.


Hey Jeff - This is one thing that just about EVERY WS does... they re-write the history of the M. Mrs. RIF did it, and every WS that I've seen on here has done it. The WS HAS to re-write the M in order to rationalize their actions... it helps them justify the A because things were so "rotten" in the M.

Don't worry about what she's told her family or friends... the truth will eventually come out. I suspect that she's just trying to bait you into an argument so she can "justify" her anger at you... Please don't fall for it...

Be loving and kind, but don't compromise your position of fighting for the M... If family or friends try to contact you, be wary of their motives... they may be siding with your W for now. If they are not fighting FOR the M, then they are against it, and you should have nothing to do with them.

If you have to vent, then please vent here to us, and NOT to your wife, "well meaning" friends (they may report directly back to your W), or "well meaning" family... keep your mssg consistant. "I'm willing to do whatever it takes to fight for our M."

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 12:28 PM
Wow, it looks like it's all starting to impact.

It started off with "Are you going to ignore me while you do all this crazy stuff?" Then accusing me of hacking into email accounts to get the address for the OMW. Then lots of "you're just making my life better" and "you're really making this decision easy." And "how ugly do you plan to make this?" Then threatened to out me as a homosexual. Then threatened to sue me for slander, since I have no proof to back any of this up. Said she would never go to counseling with me, or ever see me again. And the big finisher "I'll never speak to you again if you go through with this."

All my responses were positive, and fair. Lots of "I'm sorry you feel that way, but hopefully you'll see in time that I only have the best interest of our marriage at heart."

I find the threats to "out" me especially comical given the recent attitudes towards Don't Ask, Don't Tell.

Sent the whole conversation up to my BN commander. Let no one ever say I wasn't completely honest and open throughout this.

I am somewhat concerned that I haven't heard anything back from OMW.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 12:47 PM
Originally Posted by Jeff4187
Wow, it looks like it's all starting to impact.

It started off with "Are you going to ignore me while you do all this crazy stuff?" Then accusing me of hacking into email accounts to get the address for the OMW. Then lots of "you're just making my life better" and "you're really making this decision easy." And "how ugly do you plan to make this?" Then threatened to out me as a homosexual. Then threatened to sue me for slander, since I have no proof to back any of this up. Said she would never go to counseling with me, or ever see me again. And the big finisher "I'll never speak to you again if you go through with this."

All my responses were positive, and fair. Lots of "I'm sorry you feel that way, but hopefully you'll see in time that I only have the best interest of our marriage at heart."

I find the threats to "out" me especially comical given the recent attitudes towards Don't Ask, Don't Tell.

Sent the whole conversation up to my BN commander. Let no one ever say I wasn't completely honest and open throughout this.

I am somewhat concerned that I haven't heard anything back from OMW.

In your earlier post, you said that you didn't think she would ever forgive you for betraying her and going to her chain of command with this. First of all, she betrayed you, not the other way around. I'm sure if the roles were reversed, she would have done the same to you, and deep down, she knows that, but she'll never let it on to you...at least while she's still active in the affair. You see, my WW was absolutely furious that I exposed to her employer. She said she'd never forgive me for trying to ruin her career. I told her she was the one having an affair with a coworker, and if her career was going to be ruined, it was because of that, not my actions. She knew that deep down inside, and once there was NC w/ OM, she admitted she understood it, and it was water under the bridge. Trust me, if your WW goes complete NC w/ OM as a result of your exposure, I'd give you about an 80% chance of recovering your marriage. Seriously, if the affair partner is removed from the situation, and there is no one else to meet your wife's needs, she will seek you out to meet them again, and if you make enough love bank deposits, the love busters (exposure) will get outweighed. She's not going to stop calling you. I bet she calls you every day to spew venom at you. The opposite of love is not hate, it is indifference. Your WW still obviously loves you, but is too caught up in the addiction of her affair. If she was wanting to try and work it out with you just a week ago, I'm pretty confident that she will IF OM is COMPLETELY out of the picture for good and there is no more contact from here on out. Just let exposure do it's work and minimize love busters at this time. Sit back, pull up a chair, and just watch the fireworks for now.

Edit: Why the name change?
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 12:56 PM
I changed my display name for discretion purposes.

The above comments were in an online chat, not over the phone. I haven't been answering the phone when she calls. I was extremely hesitant to even reply to her chats, and I told her I didn't think we should talk right now, but she should know that I love her and I'm fighting for our marriage. She continued to spew venom, I continued to be positive and say I was fighting for the marriage.

She sent me an email explaining how easy the divorce would be for her, and how I couldn't stop her, and by the way, she wants "her" dog. He was a dog that we bought together, and he lived with us for 1 years. Then with my parents for 6 months, then her for 6 months, then me for 6 months, and now my parents for 6 months. All his moving around has been because of both of us being in the Army and in training or deployed.

She knows how much I love that dog, and how much he loves me. I used to always tell her when we were having to live apart (and she couldn't have him at her apartment) that he was the only thing that kept me sane without her there. Very mean to threaten our dog.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 01:03 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
Also I just don't see her forgiving me for betraying her by turning her into her chain of command. Ever.

Hi Gerka, you are doing great! Don't worry about getting her forgiveness. If she ends her affair and gets into recovery, she will forgive you. If she doesn't, then it won't matter anyway. The bigger issue is if YOU can forgive her for her affair some day.

Hang in there! smile
Posted By: turtlehead Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 01:16 PM
She's pulling out all the stops, isn't she? Tossing out the D threats, "never forgiving you", saying she'll take the dog.

I'd say this is a superbly effective exposure! She is angry because she's feeling the pressure.

You're in a great position. You have the ability to ignore the D papers (if you even get D papers) while she withdraws from OM.

The tough thing will be meeting her ENs while you guys are so far apart, but it can certainly be done. I've seen some surprisingly effective long distance Plan As.
Posted By: ouchthathurt Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 01:18 PM
I imagine they can get the phone records from that second number. When they do, the jig is up 20 calls a day and 400 text messages to another woman's husband. This will be a big surprise for her when the army asks "why so many texts and calls to a married man? Just what were your conversations about?"
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 01:24 PM
Originally Posted by ouchthathurt
I imagine they can get the phone records from that second number. When they do, the jig is up 20 calls a day and 400 text messages to another woman's husband. This will be a big surprise for her when the army asks "why so many texts and calls to a married man? Just what were your conversations about?"

I don't think an Army officer in the course of an investigation has the ability to subpoena phone records. They may, however, be able to order the suspect to surrender the phone records. RIF could probably clear that up.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 01:30 PM
Hi Gerkaguards,

Quote
Then accusing me of hacking into email accounts to get the address for the OMW.


Bingo!!!

I suspect that she knows just how serious this all is by now, and to make matters worse, she knows that the OM's W will put a VERY short leash on the OM, thus ending her "perfect" little world!!!

THAT is why she is so angry with you... grin

As for hearing back from the OM's W... I wouldn't worry too much about that. Your mission was accomplished by letting her know about the affair... if she has questions, she may contact you, but it doesn't have any bearing on what you are or are not going to do.

Oh, and as for the dog, I completely understand how this would upset you.... but remember, she's going to use ANYTHING that she can to try and get you to engage here in angry outbursts or hateful speech in order to "justify" her actions. Don't fall for it!!!

Just wait until she's called into her Commander's office and questioned by the investigating officer... I suspect that things will get VERY serious then!

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 01:41 PM
Well, a little bit of research seems to suggest that an investigating officer has the weight of the US government behind him, and if the situation points in the direction of phone calls or emails, they can subpoena all of that. I guess you learn something new every day.

So she's going to be forced to choose:
a) Try to lie through everything. Get caught in a lie, get a dishonorable discharge.
b) Admit to everything. Take your lumps, but probably not a dishonorable discharge.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 01:46 PM
The fact that she knew that the message to OMW was hand delivered, and other details of what I wrote to OMW suggests that the OM contacted my WW after the OMW had confronted him. So it doesn't seem that he's on a "short leash." So what does that mean? Has he convinced her to do nothing? That it's all a lie? Did she leave with the kids?
Posted By: believer Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 01:53 PM
Don't worry about what is going on with her. It would be nice if she followed the MB plan, but the important thing is that she was notified. Sometimes the cheater talks a good story and tries to worm their way out of things, but know that the OM's wife will be watching him.

And just accept that he has contacted your wife, they always do. Chances are excellent that he will dump your wife and then she will wake up. And don't worry about being second choice - you just want the affair ended and no contact, however it happens.
Posted By: rwinger Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 01:55 PM
Just wanted to say great job on exposure - fasten your seat belt for the turbelence.
Posted By: ouchthathurt Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 01:55 PM
She will eventually have to face the music. In truth, the investigation will probably help your marriage. There will be a report written up for her file. Every CO or change of duty station will expose it. The only way for her to possibly counter the negative (which is a career killer) is to attend counseling and restore the marriage. To basically be able to say "Yeah we had our problems but we got through it and have a strong marriage now. Otherwise she will be looked at by her CO as someone that cannot be counted on when the chips are down or when things get tough. Her fitness reports will always be looked at with a jaundiced eye.
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 02:02 PM
Gerka

I'm so sorry you're going through this. I had my ex cheat on me while I was deployed and I had no clue. I don't think I could have functioned at all if I had known. Actually, I know I wouldn't have been able to.

I think what you're doing is all in line with what you should be doing.

I do offer you this thought, though: The military can create circumstances which I feel force some people to marry prematurely when the relationship would have failed otherwise. It's the nature of the beast. An assignment comes to a close and the local girl has to either be dumped, married, move with you, or settle for a long distance thing.

This keeps some people together that shouldn't be together at all. I say this as a man who married a woman due to the cirucumstances I faced and I married when I should have followed my gut when I dumped her.

You're very young. What would I do if I could go back in time?

I would have left her early, deployed my butt off, bucked up my career credentials with combat assignments and deployments, and forgotten about women until I became a Major.

You WILL get over your wife if you divorce. It's not the end of the world, especially since you don't have kids together.

But that's a bridge you'll have to decide for yourself once you end the affair. You'll never forgive yourself for not doing everything in your power to end the affair regardless of whether or not you save your marriage.

The threat of career consequences will likely kill this on the OM's end. He'll drop your WW like a hot potato with pressure from his W and COC.

I look back at all the time I wasted as an Lt and so wish I could go back in time, forget about women for 6 years or so, and simply concentrate on my flying career. I'd be well on my way to LtCol right now, would have the maturity to get into a mature relationship with a woman and not an overgrown teen, and be in a better place.

BUT, I do get to see my kids often and I have met and am going to marry a great woman.

So the long story short: There is life after divorce. You have no kids with this woman. Count your blessings if you rid yourself of her. Otherwise, time will eat at you that she "settled for you."

Best of luck.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 02:03 PM
Hi Gerkaguards! I've been following your thread. You're doing great!

Quote
The fact that she knew that the message to OMW was hand delivered, and other details of what I wrote to OMW suggests that the OM contacted my WW after the OMW had confronted him. So it doesn't seem that he's on a "short leash." So what does that mean? Has he convinced her to do nothing? That it's all a lie? Did she leave with the kids?

There is always the "Oh chit! We've been caught!" message...followed by let's try to get our stories straight.

My guess would be that OM has convinced his wife that he might lose his job and she has decided not to help make that happen.

Doesn't mean she won't be watching him like a hawk from now on.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 02:09 PM
My best guess, based on what you've told us, and previous experience as an investigating officer is this:

1 - No contact order to OM and W
2 - Investigation will show inappropriate behavior, but not adultery.
3 - Investigation will, at a minimum, show a violation of Article 92.

Punishment:

OM will be forced to retire, or if not, will never make another promotion. Oh, and he will at a minimum receive a General Officer Letter of Reprimand (filed in his permanent file)

Wife will receive a General Officer Letter of Reprimand. Her letter may be filed locally, which means that it will be removed when she changes duty stations... or it may be filed permanently, which will, in effect, end her career.

If the Command really want's to make an "example" of them, they may also give them a Field Grade Article 15 (on top of the GOLOR)... they can take up to one (1) months pay and 60 days restriction and 45 days extra duty... I've never seen an officer receive an Article 15 in all my 25 years in the military... but it can be done.

Now, they will be given an option of requesting a court-martial instead of the Article 15... if only they were dumb enough to do that! I also think that they could be administratively discharged "for the good of the service" and if this happened, it would most likely be "Under Other than Honorable" conditions... an OTH isn't as bad as a BCD or the worst, a Dishonorable Discharge...

What I've told you might not be 100% accurate, so if you're really interested, go talk with one of the JAG officers at your FOB/Base...

Keep your head up and don't fall for her "tricks"!!!

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 02:14 PM
And RIF, what if my wife is in a career field that requires a TS\SCI clearance... and she doesn't have it yet?
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 02:26 PM
Quote
And RIF, what if my wife is in a career field that requires a TS\SCI clearance... and she doesn't have it yet?


She can kiss the TS/SCI goodbye!!! It won't happen now.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: ouchthathurt Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 02:26 PM
I think it would definitely effect getting a TS. They look for these kind of character flaws. I mean if you can't keep your vows, how could you be trusted to keep a secret.
Posted By: believer Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 02:47 PM
I'm just curious about your wife. You have said that she always wanted this career. But I'm wondering if she is really cut out for it.

I'm a lifelong Navy civilian. The Navy has a policy of zero tolerance for drugs. We all know that. But over my career I've seen several good workers fired for using drugs. Everyone is always shocked and sad.

One might think that smoking a little pot could be fun. But knowing about the zero tolerance policy, MOST people wanting a career refrain from it. It is what comes with the job.

Your wife is so early in her career and already she has shown that she is not willing to obey the rules. And she is furious with her deployed betrayed husband on top of everything!

YIKES!!!!!!
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 03:05 PM
Quote
So what does that mean? Has he convinced her to do nothing? That it's all a lie? Did she leave with the kids?


Hey Gurka - Look back at some of my earlier posts to you... Remember, I told you that the OM would try and convince his W that some "crazy LT" was going to contact her...

You have the battle plan for the enemy and he's following it to the letter! Like the others said, don't worry about this. Your main goal here was to expose the A to the OM's wife... that's done. You may not see "immediate" results but I'd bet my next paycheck that OM's W is snooping up a storm now!

One other thing, try to NOT worry about things that you have no control over. You can't control what the OM's W does. I know from personal experience, that what you are most likely doing is projecting your thoughts to others - "If I were the OM's W, and I'd gotten a letter from Gurka, I'd do ___." Now, when "___" doesn't happen, you start questioning your actions and your reasons.... Don't fall for this!

Your actions are 100% right on target. Don't doubt your actions one bit! Your W is going to do everything that she can to try and make you doubt what you are doing. Stay focused and stay away from the "what if" questions that pop into your mind.

Semper Fi,

RI
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 03:10 PM
That's good advice RIF. I've definitely been geeking out a little bit over not hearing back from the OMW. But her reaction doesn't determine whether my reaction was right or wrong. After all, her reaction might be delayed by 3 weeks as well.
Posted By: ouchthathurt Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 03:22 PM
She is the one that proved out your wife's "other" phone. Some "crazy" Lt. didn't just invent that phone number, right? She may want to protect her husbands job and income. If you are on the same phone account, I think that that other phone is proof enough for everything.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 03:23 PM
Hey Gurka,

You are doing MUCH, MUCH better than I did when I found out abou Mrs. RIF's "first" affair!!!

Nothing wrong with "geeking out"... just don't do it to your W... to her, you're Mr. Cool with a single message! "I love you and I will do everything within my power to save OUR marriage." You are a broken record to all of her communications (chat/e-mail/phone/carrier pigeon/etc)

As you're finding out, this isn't easy stuff, but whether you think so or not, you're doing a super job!

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Pepperband Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 03:26 PM
Originally Posted by RIF
As you're finding out, this isn't easy stuff, but whether you think so or not, you're doing a super job!

Semper Fi,

DITTO
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 03:27 PM
Quote
She may want to protect her husbands job and income.


EXCELLENT point Ouch!!!

It's sad that in this situation, that the OM's wife is REALLY going to get the short end of the stick because of her H's selfish decisions... At least she now knows what kind of "man" her H is... MrRollieEyes

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 03:36 PM
Originally Posted by RIF
Quote
She may want to protect her husbands job and income.


EXCELLENT point Ouch!!!

It's sad that in this situation, that the OM's wife is REALLY going to get the short end of the stick because of her H's selfish decisions... At least she now knows what kind of "man" her H is... MrRollieEyes

Semper Fi,

RIF

I don't know, the more I think about it, the less sense it makes. Military stay at home wives are very well taken care of in the event of divorce. They get a huge chunk of their husband's paycheck, child support, a piece of his retirement, etc. But I suppose there's also the "what would mom and dad think" factor.

When you guys talk about exposing to the OM's parents, how the heck do you find out who they are?
Posted By: Pepperband Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 03:40 PM
Quote
She may want to protect her husbands job and income.


She may be having her own affair.
When H and I met with OW's H for the purpose of exposing the affair, and so that my H could apologize man to man, we found out that OW's H already knew about it.

NOT the response I expected.
We both think he was using her adultery(s) to justify his own.

But, ain't my business.





Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 03:45 PM
Quote
I don't know, the more I think about it, the less sense it makes. Military stay at home wives are very well taken care of in the event of divorce. They get a huge chunk of their husband's paycheck, child support, a piece of his retirement, etc. But I suppose there's also the "what would mom and dad think" factor.

Then don't think of it. Can she get a huge chunk of his retirement if he got dishonorably discharged and lost it? She has her children's financial welfare and house payments to worry about. Saving your marriage is not her top priority.

Quote
When you guys talk about exposing to the OM's parents, how the heck do you find out who they are?

Oh, you spying novice. smirk I found my OM's parents at intellius.com. I knew he was from NH, so when I did an intellius FREE search on him, a couple of names of relatives popped up. Then I took those names and did a white pages search in NH for the relative. Sure enough, I got a hold of his dad on the first try, and I paid nothing. $50-100 at intellius.com will get you whatever you need to know about the guy, relatives names and numbers, old addresses, etc.
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 03:45 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
And RIF, what if my wife is in a career field that requires a TS\SCI clearance... and she doesn't have it yet?

Hi Gerkaguards,

I have been following this morning and I must say you are doing amazingly well. I wish I had had the strength to do all you are doing when it was my turn and my WW started her antics while I was deployed.

I am a Navy Officer Intel type and have been around for about 22 years in the TS/SCI world. A lot of your wife's clearance issues are unclear. If they have already completed her investigation before all this came out but it is awating adjudication, she prob will get her clearance.

If they have not, then this may affect it unless she loses OM, and "testifies" to the SSO that it is over and she is returning to her husband and expresses remorse that she made such a horrible mistake.

Once charged or investigated she will be expected to "self-report" to the SSO of what has happened. She will have to show how she has made changes to mitigate the situation. If there is a judgement or LOR, it will be reported for her, so she better race to the SSO herself to beat the report.

Bottom line, unless she ends it with OM she will lose, or not get, her clearance, point in your favor.

The biggest concern with these clearances are that people have something they are ashamed of and could be blackmailed into doing things to keep the secret private.

If they kicked out every intel person that was cheating on their spouse they would kick out about half the community I am sorry to say. It is why the divorce rate in the intel community is so very high.

SWW
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 03:52 PM
Quote
When you guys talk about exposing to the OM's parents, how the heck do you find out who they are?


Only "legal" way that I can think of is to hire a PI...

Even if you knew someone in personnel at Ft. Sill and could get a peak at OM's DD Form 93, it would be illegal to use the information... whistle

I think that your exposure to the C-of-C and OM's W will end the A... if you could find the OM's parents, and/or OM's W's parents, that would be a bonus, but I don't think it's critical in your situation.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 04:06 PM
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
If they kicked out every intel person that was cheating on their spouse they would kick out about half the community I am sorry to say. It is why the divorce rate in the intel community is so very high.

SWW

The military psychologist I spoke to actually referenced this. He said that people with trust issues usually gravitate towards intelligence fields, and people with trust issues are far more likely to have affairs.

I think the fact that this is hitting both of them before they've even completed their initial training isn't going to be looked upon favorably. She doesn't have her clearance yet.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 04:19 PM
Quote
I don't know, the more I think about it, the less sense it makes. Military stay at home wives are very well taken care of in the event of divorce. They get a huge chunk of their husband's paycheck, child support, a piece of his retirement, etc. But I suppose there's also the "what would mom and dad think" factor.


Even though she may be well cared for, she surely would not be as well off financially as she is right now, nor will her children, who will have to go into daycare so she can get a job.

I would bet that she wants to save her M, and that she is afraid her H will not want to if she helps end his career.

Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 04:21 PM
Since I'm such a nice guy, I'll walk you through the process of finding his parents.

1) First, go to Intellius.com. Type in his name and where he lives. Let's say his name is John Schmidt and he lives in Missouri (I just made this up). This is what the FREE search would come back with. You can then find the names of his relatives.

Intellius Search

2) If you need to go further because you don't know where he's from, just click on the "View Details" button and it will bring you to a pay page.

3) A "People Search Report" costs only $0.95 and gives you: Full Name, Address, Age & DOB, Phone Number, Relatives, Address, History, Avg. Income, & Home Value. See the sample below:

People Search Report

4) A "24 Hour Pass" for $14.95 will give you that access to anyone for 24 hours, including his relatives.

5) A "Background Report" for $39.95 will give you everything in the "People Search Report" plus Criminal Check, Lawsuits, Bankrupcies, Judgments, Marriages, Divorces, Liens, Aliases, Death Records, and Neighbors. Example below:

Background Report
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 04:23 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
If they kicked out every intel person that was cheating on their spouse they would kick out about half the community I am sorry to say. It is why the divorce rate in the intel community is so very high.

SWW

The military psychologist I spoke to actually referenced this. He said that people with trust issues usually gravitate towards intelligence fields, and people with trust issues are far more likely to have affairs.

I think the fact that this is hitting both of them before they've even completed their initial training isn't going to be looked upon favorably. She doesn't have her clearance yet.

If she is still in training she is in a lot of trouble, clearance wise. The only hope she has for keeping her clearance is to break it off with the OM, and go do a self-report to the SSO (Special Security Officer) and tell them the truth about everything.

Then she will have to demonstrate her remorse and show what actions she is taking to fix the problem. The only satisfactory action for someone in a training status is to patch things up with her Husband.

If she had had her clearance for some time it would be different, but if I were the SSO i would pull her clearance or recommend dissaproval. It's too early in the game for these types of shenanigans, and most SSO's prob aren't going to risk a judgement call and being wrong on a newbie like your WW.

I think an additional reson D is so high in the Intel world is that we can't talk about substantive issues about our jobs to our spouses that aren't cleared. So people seek out others in the community to talk to and, then, well you know...

If she continues in this field, she is going to have a lot of unaccounted for time and access to sytems that you will never be given access to. Not saying that's a deal breaker by any stretch (I and many I know had the same type of constraints and did not have an A) but it is something to be aware of and consider.

But these are really ancillary issues compared to the exposing, Plan A advice you are getting. This involves your WW, over whom you currently have little to no influence. Be ready for the fury over exposure like people have been telling you; it's coming brother. But, like everyone has been saying, brush it off like water off a ducks back. Stay mission focused in your current job as best you can, this other stuff will all sort itself out. Everything is going to be alright.


SWW
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 04:23 PM
Quote
The military psychologist I spoke to actually referenced this. He said that people with trust issues usually gravitate towards intelligence fields, and people with trust issues are far more likely to have affairs.

That is interesting.

I know two people who are in the intelligence field. And both of them are serial cheaters.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 04:32 PM
I found him, had to look him up in his previous state, it's not up to date with his newest address. I know his father has the same name as him. But Intellius doesn't seem to give email addresses or anything does it? Sending an actual letter from Afghanistan doesn't seem very timely.
Posted By: chrisner Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 04:35 PM
Good work Gerka. Like the name change.

[Linked Image from i270.photobucket.com]
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 04:36 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
I found him, had to look him up in his previous state, it's not up to date with his newest address. I know his father has the same name as him. But Intellius doesn't seem to give email addresses or anything does it? Sending an actual letter from Afghanistan doesn't seem very timely.

Why not write it, sign it, scan it, send it PDF to a friend and have them overnite it to them?

SWW
Posted By: chrisner Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 04:38 PM
Have you tried Pipl.com ?

Pipl.com
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 04:40 PM
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
If she is still in training she is in a lot of trouble, clearance wise. The only hope she has for keeping her clearance is to break it off with the OM, and go do a self-report to the SSO (Special Security Officer) and tell them the truth about everything.

Then she will have to demonstrate her remorse and show what actions she is taking to fix the problem. The only satisfactory action for someone in a training status is to patch things up with her Husband.

She doesn't even START training for another 2 months. Her class date was that far out.

What you say about the only way for her to make it right is to patch things up with her husband.... That doesn't leave me in a very good place. Who wants someone to be forced to be with them?
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 04:50 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
If she is still in training she is in a lot of trouble, clearance wise. The only hope she has for keeping her clearance is to break it off with the OM, and go do a self-report to the SSO (Special Security Officer) and tell them the truth about everything.

Then she will have to demonstrate her remorse and show what actions she is taking to fix the problem. The only satisfactory action for someone in a training status is to patch things up with her Husband.

She doesn't even START training for another 2 months. Her class date was that far out.

What you say about the only way for her to make it right is to patch things up with her husband.... That doesn't leave me in a very good place. Who wants someone to be forced to be with them?

That may be why she stays with you now, but it doesn't mean it is the reason she is with you in 3 years when she may be in love with you again. She doesn't want to be with you right now. Duh. You know that. Let's see if she wants to be with you 6 months after OM is out of the picture. Don't let it bruise your ego. Instead, feel good about how you were there fighting for her in bad times. You weren't at home to meet her ENs. Someone else was. She wasn't properly enforcing boundaries to protect her marriage. It happens all the time. That in no way is a reflection of you, but rather a reflection of her poor choices lately. Time can heal all wounds.

How about calling OM's parents or having a friend back home call them, tell them what is going on, and then ask for their email to send them the proof or just have the friend mail it. Remember, where there is a will, there is a way.

Edit: And yes, intellius does have an email search, although it was unable to pull up my email address.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 04:53 PM
Quote
That doesn't leave me in a very good place. Who wants someone to be forced to be with them?


Hey Gurka,

One step at a time! Remember, you're just at step 1. End the Affair...

You are in an EXCELLENT place! I was just looking at the date that you became a member here... yep, 3 days ago!

You've already exposed the A to the key people that have real power to separate OM and your W (your C-of-C) and OM's W.

The A WILL end... trust us on this. Your W is going to spew venom at you for a while, but eventually, she will come back to her senses.

Don't focus on "what it will be like when she is forced to be with you in order to 'save' her military career" You aren't at that step now, so don't worry about it.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 04:54 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
If she is still in training she is in a lot of trouble, clearance wise. The only hope she has for keeping her clearance is to break it off with the OM, and go do a self-report to the SSO (Special Security Officer) and tell them the truth about everything.

Then she will have to demonstrate her remorse and show what actions she is taking to fix the problem. The only satisfactory action for someone in a training status is to patch things up with her Husband.

She doesn't even START training for another 2 months. Her class date was that far out.

What you say about the only way for her to make it right is to patch things up with her husband.... That doesn't leave me in a very good place. Who wants someone to be forced to be with them?

Because that is the most responsible way to demonstrate that she is once again trustworthy. You will read a lot of posts on here where that unfortunately is usually the position of a BS for awhile. Your WW is not going to all of a sudden fall back in love with you.

You will read this in Surviving an Affair where the WS reluctantly returns to the BS because he/she is out of options. Simple as that, then you start to deposit love units in the love bank to rebuild your marriage.

Forget the clearance thing for now, it is not as important as saving your marrige and you are doing all the right things. You asked the question about it so i though i could clear it up a bit, but best now to press forward with your plan.

SWW
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 05:08 PM
I'll look into reaching his parents more tomorrow. I'm pretty tired now.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 05:10 PM
Also, will they each have a right to legal counsel during the investigation? As in a civilian criminal case, where the suspect can just shut up and not answer any questions at all. Can they just not talk at all?
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 05:12 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
Also, will they each have a right to legal counsel during the investigation? As in a civilian criminal case, where the suspect can just shut up and not answer any questions at all. Can they just not talk at all?

Is it not 0240 there? Shouldn't you be asleep if not on watch?

Old Sea Daddy speaking.

SWW
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 05:15 PM
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
Also, will they each have a right to legal counsel during the investigation? As in a civilian criminal case, where the suspect can just shut up and not answer any questions at all. Can they just not talk at all?

Is it not 0240 there? Shouldn't you be asleep if not on watch?

Old Sea Daddy speaking.

SWW

On watch? Heh. It's 2145 here.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 05:29 PM
Quote
Also, will they each have a right to legal counsel during the investigation? As in a civilian criminal case, where the suspect can just shut up and not answer any questions at all. Can they just not talk at all?


Yep, they will have the same rights as a civilian... The FIRST thing that the investigating officer will do is have them sign a DA Form 3881 (RIGHTS WARNING PROCEDURE/WAIVER CERTIFICATE).

Here' the text from the actual form:
Quote
The investigator whose name appears below told me that he/she is with the United States Army
suspected/accused:
Before he/she asked me any questions about the offense(s), however, he/she made it clear to me that I have the following rights:
1. I do not have to answer any question or say anything.

2. Anything I say or do can be used as evidence against me in a criminal trial.

3. (For personnel subject to the UCMJ, I have the right to talk privately to a lawyer before, during, and after questioning and to have a lawyer present with me during questioning. This lawyer can be a civilian lawyer I arrange for at no expense to the Government or a military lawyer detailed for me at no expense to me, or both.
or

(For civilians not subject to the UCMJ) I have the right to talk privately to a lawyer before, during, and after questioning and to have a lawyer present with me during questioning. I understand that this lawyer can be one that I arrange for at my own expense, or if I cannot afford a lawyer and want one, a lawyer will be appointed for me before any questioning begins.

4. If I am now willing to discuss the offense(s) under investigation, with or without a lawyer present, I have a right to stop answering questions at any time, or
speak privately with a lawyer before answering further, even if I sign the waiver below.


None of the soliders that I investigated ever refused to make a statement, and none of them requested a lawyer before or after talking with me during the investigation.

Remember, they will both be accused of adultery or violation of a lawful order... if they clam up and don't say anything, then the investigating officer is pretty much left with making his/her recommendation to the Commander based solely on the facts that he was given at the start of the investigation...

If OM has more time in the military, he may believe that he knows how to "beat" this and most likely will share his ideas with your W... a good investigator will see through this.

Also, remember this, most soldiers get in trouble for lying on a sworn statement during the investigation... not for adultery.

Semper Fi,

RIF

PS - Hey Old Sea Daddy, it's 2034 here in Iraq...
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 05:33 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
Also, will they each have a right to legal counsel during the investigation? As in a civilian criminal case, where the suspect can just shut up and not answer any questions at all. Can they just not talk at all?

Is it not 0240 there? Shouldn't you be asleep if not on watch?

Old Sea Daddy speaking.

SWW

On watch? Heh. It's 2145 here.

Oops, I never was very good at dat! Still ain't... have been thinking a lot lately bout a place that starts with Pyong and ends in Yang and factoring in the 1/2 hour weirdo thing for AF.

I am getting old.

SWW
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 05:42 PM
Originally Posted by RIF
Semper Fi,

RIF

PS - Hey Old Sea Daddy, it's 2034 here in Iraq...

Smart aleck kids go no respect for old people these days. laugh

SWW
Posted By: Just Learning Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 07:27 PM
Folks,

I haven't read to the end of todays thread, but I thought I would comment on this.
Quote
That is interesting.

I know two people who are in the intelligence field. And both of them are serial cheaters.
I am not in the intel business, but I work with and hold high level clearances. Obviously all of the people I work with hold them. I see no evidence, and I am talking about 1000's of people for over 40 years, to indicate that people with clearances cheat or divorce anymore often than the general population.

Need-to-know requirements means even if H and W have same level of clearances they cannot talk about what each of them do.

He clearance is probably toast because her command won't want to invest the money on an unproven commodity with a dubious sense of morals.

Just my thoughts.

JL
Posted By: Just Learning Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 07:32 PM
Quote
Smart aleck kids go no respect for old people these days.


Here, here!!! cool

JL
Posted By: Just Learning Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 07:36 PM
Gerka,

I would not as RIF has said worry about the clearance thing. Really that is the least of the issues. I would not worry too much about OM's parents. My guess is that you have not heard for OM's W because she has been too busy twoxfour on her H.

I would also guess that she is in even more emotional turmoil than you are. As every one has said, you have handled this mess very well, and you have your head screwed on straight. OM's W may not have gotten far enough down the road with this new knowledge to do anything but think about her family and herself.

I think the exposure to CoC is going to prove to be the most effective thing you could have done. Get some rest, take care of yourself, and just let the electrons your W is expending trying to contact you move on to your commander as you have been doing.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 08:00 PM
Originally Posted by Just Learning
Gerka,

I would not as RIF has said worry about the clearance thing. Really that is the least of the issues. I would not worry too much about OM's parents. My guess is that you have not heard for OM's W because she has been too busy twoxfour on her H.

I would also guess that she is in even more emotional turmoil than you are. As every one has said, you have handled this mess very well, and you have your head screwed on straight. OM's W may not have gotten far enough down the road with this new knowledge to do anything but think about her family and herself.

I think the exposure to CoC is going to prove to be the most effective thing you could have done. Get some rest, take care of yourself, and just let the electrons your W is expending trying to contact you move on to your commander as you have been doing.

God Bless,

JL

One thing I would disagree with is exposure to OM's parents. In my case exposing to his parents made my WW no longer a viable long term option for her because they felt she was a slut for cheating on her husband. She would not have been welcome at family functions and OM new that. They let him know that he should be persuing only non-married women. This work better, though, when a person is younger and more influenced by their parents, as well as how religious their parents are. Of course this person was a loser and getting some financial support from his parents. He was also 25. His parents were also Catholic and sent him to a private Catholic college. They did not want their boy wrecking a marriage and dating some "piece of trash" in their minds. Last time I checked (he attempted to "friend" my FWW on facebook), he was dating a Jewish girl (whom I subsequently informed about his affair with a married woman). Oh, well.
Posted By: _Larry_ Re: WW waffling between us - 04/20/10 08:22 PM

I am a bit concerned about the comment that TS clearances start affairs by talking among themselves stuff they cannot talk about with their spouses. Having held as high a clearance as you can get as an EM in the Army working for NSA, I was always given to understand that you didn't talk to fellow workers about what you did except through specific and official channels, period.

And that mean the desk or console next to the one you occupied. And that meant off duty or on duty. That meant don't share anything except through official, specific channels, period, at the risk of really bad things happening to you.

Maybe I misunderstood the comment.

Just saying. . .

Larry
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 02:07 AM
Well, still didn't hear back from OMW. Looks like my WW took her car off our insurance while I was asleep. She also changed the password to our audible.com account, which sucks because I started it, and I like listening to audio books here in Afghanistan...
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 02:44 AM
Good Morning Gurka!

Quote
Well, still didn't hear back from OMW.

And??? Were you expecting anything from her? Try not to project what you would do if you were the OM's W, and then worry that "something" isn't right because OM's W hasn't contacted you.

Quote
Looks like my WW took her car off our insurance while I was asleep.

Ha! She's really showing you who's the "boss"! Right? Hope she doen't have a wreck with no insurance... that's going to really cost her! hee hee...

Quote
She also changed the password to our audible.com account, which sucks because I started it, and I like listening to audio books here in Afghanistan...


And? You were expecting sweetness and light from her? This does sound rather childish, but she's a "big girl" and can do whatever she wants. Her next step will be to confront you and bring these topics (car insurance, changed passwords, book accounts) up during your next chat/phonecall/e-mail...

Don't fall for it!!! Keep on your message of "I love you and I will do whatever it takes to save or M"... Expect her to try and find more actions to hurt you... she's now in rolling on the floor and stomping her feet saying "It's not FAIR!!!" just like a little kid...

You know it's coming, you knew it was coming, because we've all been through it and gave you the battle plan... I know it sucks to listen to her drivel, but don't take it to heart!!!

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 03:17 AM
Yeah, it's right up there with un-friending me on facebook and making herself "invisible" on google chat (though still trying to initiate conversations.) It's like I'm in a marriage with a middle schooler.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 03:20 AM
Quote
It's like I'm in a marriage with a middle schooler.


rotflmao

hee hee... exactly!!!
Posted By: Just Learning Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 03:24 AM
Gerka,

Right now you are married to an alien. Your W got beamed up to the Mothership and the replacement is a bit childish because she hasn't been on planet very long. wink So don't be surprised that she acts like a child cause she is a newbie alien.

Hang in there.

JL
Posted By: Mr_Recon6mo Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 03:39 AM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
Well, still didn't hear back from OMW.

And it might be you never will. Don't worry about that. OMW in my case never contacted me after exposure but OM was stupid enough to let me know that the message was delivered. wink
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 04:43 AM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
Yeah, it's right up there with un-friending me on facebook and making herself "invisible" on google chat (though still trying to initiate conversations.) It's like I'm in a marriage with a middle schooler.

Can you say...PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE?
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 11:00 AM
So I guess now we play the waiting game? The investigations will start to roll and crush them over the next few weeks. How long do you expect it will be before I hear from my WW again?
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 11:13 AM
Good afternoon Gurka!

I would guess that the investigation(s) wouldn't take more than a week maybe two at the most...

I would expect a few more nasty e-mails from your W as the investigation moves forward (more threats, more information to show you how wrong you are, etc).

Remember, when your W contacts you, she will be trying to get you to get angry with her... if you get angry with her or lose your temper, then SHE will feel justified in her anger towards you. Don't fall for her tricks!

It's just 0613 at Ft. Sill, so it may be a couple more hours before you hear something from your W...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 11:20 AM
She's at Fort Huachuca, he's at Fort Sill. Only 0430 at Fort Huachuca yet.

I wonder if she hasn't been counseled by her civilian divorce attorney or a judge advocate not to speak to me anymore.
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 11:25 AM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
She's at Fort Huachuca, he's at Fort Sill. Only 0430 at Fort Huachuca yet.

I wonder if she hasn't been counseled by her civilian divorce attorney or a judge advocate not to speak to me anymore.

Hey Gerka,

In a marriage with a middle schooler. Indeed! Taking the car off the insurance? Audible.com change passwords?
Think of the look on a baby's face when you rip the lollipop out of its mouth. She is just acting out trying to get your attention and get you angry like RIF says. Pay no attention. No matter what she says be nice, and it's always I am just doing what i believe is necessary to save our marriage. Period. You are doing great!

SWW
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 11:31 AM
Quote
I wonder if she hasn't been counseled by her civilian divorce attorney or a judge advocate not to speak to me anymore.


Who knows... it really doesn't matter does it?

The goal of exposing was/is to end the A. I suspect that she will contact you later on today... if she doesn't, then focus on exposing to the OM's parents, and read up on Plan-A.

The investigations will happen and you most likely won't hear anything about the outcome, unless your W gets kicked out of the Army, then you'll hear from her how it was "all your fault"...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 11:33 AM
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
She's at Fort Huachuca, he's at Fort Sill. Only 0430 at Fort Huachuca yet.

I wonder if she hasn't been counseled by her civilian divorce attorney or a judge advocate not to speak to me anymore.

Hey Gerka,

In a marriage with a middle schooler. Indeed! Taking the car off the insurance? Audible.com change passwords?
Think of the look on a baby's face when you rip the lollipop out of its mouth. She is just acting out trying to get your attention and get you angry like RIF says. Pay no attention. No matter what she says be nice, and it's always I am just doing what i believe is necessary to save our marriage. Period. You are doing great!

SWW

I just noticed that she changed our bank information to "separated." So she doesn't show up as my spouse anymore. I also notice that she added her father as a "step-child," though I guess that could have happened a while ago.

So filing for divorce and taking steps separate all of our finances is a typical response in this kind of situation? It just seems unlikely for things to go back in the other direction from here...
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 11:38 AM
There is really nothing more besides contacting the OM's parents that you can do now. The chickens will be coming home to roost for her soon. It will dawn on her soon that this whole thing with a married man 10 yrs her senior and fellow officer was doomed from the start. It'll all come crashing down on her.

These are the times when I try to say a prayer and ask God to take control and do whatever is his will. Stick with Plan A, and try to relax and breathe. You can't force her to see the light. It will have to happen on its own over time with you being the constant safe place to land.

SWW
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 11:59 AM
Quote
It just seems unlikely for things to go back in the other direction from here...


Remember that she is in a totally different world than the rest of us right now... she is NOT thinking rationally, only about how the whole world (starting with You, Gurka) have ended her perfect little A...

Filing for D, changing bank accounts, blah blah blah... it's all pretty common stuff from what I've seen here. Again, like SWW said you're doing great and you are right where you need to be.

Stay consistent with your mssg if/when she contacts you and don't fall for her baiting you into a fight.

At some point after she's had NC with the OM, she will start to realize what a fool she's been. It might take some time, but most WS realize this once the "high" of the A is over. She may or she may not try to re-engage with you in rebuilding the M... but either way, YOU will know that you did everything possible to fight for your M, and you can hold your head high no matter what the outcome is.

Relax and don't worry about that phase... you're still in the "end the affair" phase...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Mr_Recon6mo Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 12:08 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
So filing for divorce and taking steps separate all of our finances is a typical response in this kind of situation?
Are you sure she has actually filed?
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
It just seems unlikely for things to go back in the other direction from here...

I thought the same but both of me and my FWW are posting here now instead of divorce.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 12:32 PM
She said that she filed and that she mailed the papers on Monday.

I got an email back from the OMW. She thanked me again for making her aware of the situation, said that she has a very strong support network of friends and family, and that further correspondence with me is not necessary.

I'm guessing that means she's probably not following up with his chain of command. Or at least not yet.
Posted By: believer Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 12:43 PM
She is probably still in shock, or he has a long history of affairs and she has learned to put up with it. The important thing is that you have exposed. You did your part. My bet is that the OM ends the affair. It has become a liability to him.

Your poor wife is in for a big shock.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 12:46 PM
Just calm down right now. Even if she did file, there are plenty of spouses here that have had the divorce dismissed. There was a poster here named Jayban that had his WW file as soon as he found out, but then she never followed up with it. He went to plan B and eventually his divorce case got dismissed in Texas. He moved to California and was thinking of eventually refiling there, but I haven't spoke to him in a while. The point is, that filing does not mean the end of your relationship. Likely the reason she is acting out is to "punish" you for exposure and to prevent you from further exposure. However, you already exposed to her command which is what she was afraid of.

The biggest factor on whether or not your marriage can be saved is what kind of person your WW is. Is she the hopeless romantic type that is going to bounce around from relationship to relationship and get married and divorced several times? Was this just an honest mistake of her being naive and letting a friendship get too close or is she a narcissist that only cares about herself. Only you know the answers to these questions. However, you won't find out for sure until she no longer has contact w/ OM and gets through withdrawal. Then you'll see your wife peek through. If she is still nasty and doesn't want to reconcile, she's just an awful person and you are better off without her. Move on with your life and choose more wisely next time. If she calms down and starts acting like your wife again, then you will have your opportunity to reconcile.

What was your relationship like before the affair? What were the circumstances of the affair. When did it start, how long were they physical, how long ago did he move, etc. The longer the affair, the more difficult it will be to withdraw from.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 12:48 PM
What I don't understand is how she thought this would go from the outset. A man 10 years older, married with kids, also in the Army, while she's married to an Army officer. Even when I confronted her initially and asked her how she thought it could work out for the two of them, she said, "I don't know, it's hard to tell the future..." in kind of a hazy voice. It's like she hasn't been able to see past the end of her nose for 6 months.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 01:13 PM
Quote
"I don't know, it's hard to tell the future..." in kind of a hazy voice. It's like she hasn't been able to see past the end of her nose for 6 months.


Addicts have no plans. Other than getting their next fix.

I don't believe she filed for D...she is in full panic mode and can barely get through her day.

You did the right thing. And you gave your M the best shot by ending the A. Like SWW said, time to trust God to work all things out for your good.

Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 01:45 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
What I don't understand is how she thought this would go from the outset.

She didn't think. She thought she could tip-toe around the lines of proper married boundaries and got herself addicted to the OM meeting her ENs. She's behaving like any other addict would, doing whatever they can to preserve the supply to their drug. Her judgement has been clouded by her addiction and she thought she could manage everything and avoid all the consequences. Typical addict behavior. It's like looking at meth-heads and seeing them with all their teeth rotted out and thinking how they allowed themselves to get to that point. Well, once you are hooked, the disease progresses and it is hard to stop.

How did you find out about the affair? Was she acting cold, you suspected something, and then checked the phone records? Then she confessed to you when confronted?
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 01:52 PM
Brother,

I know that I'm a voice that isn't necessarily saying things you wish to hear. I was in your shoes and didn't wish to hear it either.

There is life after divorce. This woman has cheated on you repeatedly with this guy, you haven't been married long, and you have no kids.

Separate your finances, as she is doing. This is for your own protection.

I don't understand the desire to save something with a woman who shows she doesn't have any respect for marriage and that you have no kids with.

You are looking at a life of deployment so long as you're in the service. You want to worry each time you head out or would you rather have a woman you don't worry about?

Just consider what I say. When I was in your shoes I got mad when the chaplain, of all people, told me that if my WW didn't wish to reconcile and work on things and I headed toward divorce that I should fight tooth and nail for everything.

I didn't want to hear it. I had a commander who told me that I wasn't the problem, my wife was. He told me to D her.

I didn't listen because I didn't want to.

You're young. You deserve better than this. Keep doing what you're doing as far as exposure goes. Just keep a realistic eye on things. I have very rarely seen these things end in recovery on these boards. It happens, but I've rarely seen it with wayward wives. It more often than not ends up with the WW pursuing the D and the BH coming here through the years dealing with personal recovery. The men who emerge from this gauntlet are shining examples for many of us. Chrisner comes to mind, so do a few others.

This is a terrible time for you professionally as well. Seek the support you need, but if you make it through this, focus on your career. Forget about women for a while if you end up divorced. Deploy a lot, do the job, buck up the credentials, and then think of dating again down the road. You won't regret that path.

I'm pulling for you though. It will take a miracle for her to see the error of her ways, but I'm still pulling for you.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 02:29 PM
Originally Posted by jmwc95
Just calm down right now. Even if she did file, there are plenty of spouses here that have had the divorce dismissed. There was a poster here named Jayban that had his WW file as soon as he found out, but then she never followed up with it. He went to plan B and eventually his divorce case got dismissed in Texas. He moved to California and was thinking of eventually refiling there, but I haven't spoke to him in a while. The point is, that filing does not mean the end of your relationship. Likely the reason she is acting out is to "punish" you for exposure and to prevent you from further exposure. However, you already exposed to her command which is what she was afraid of.

The biggest factor on whether or not your marriage can be saved is what kind of person your WW is. Is she the hopeless romantic type that is going to bounce around from relationship to relationship and get married and divorced several times? Was this just an honest mistake of her being naive and letting a friendship get too close or is she a narcissist that only cares about herself. Only you know the answers to these questions. However, you won't find out for sure until she no longer has contact w/ OM and gets through withdrawal. Then you'll see your wife peek through. If she is still nasty and doesn't want to reconcile, she's just an awful person and you are better off without her. Move on with your life and choose more wisely next time. If she calms down and starts acting like your wife again, then you will have your opportunity to reconcile.

What was your relationship like before the affair? What were the circumstances of the affair. When did it start, how long were they physical, how long ago did he move, etc. The longer the affair, the more difficult it will be to withdraw from.

Our relationship has always been very passionate and romantic. I'm a very romantic person, and she loves romance. We fell in love listening to sappy country love songs together. I do feel that she may be very self-centered. She suffered sexual abuse as a child, and I've done a lot of reading regarding that, and the effects it has on people. Namely not being able to trust others, not trusting themselves, or trusting the wrong people. Also feeling out of control and then taking drastic steps to regain control. And hypersexuality (in her case.)

A few months before we were married, after having dated for 2 years, she got the opportunity to study abroad in Germany. She didn't even tell me that initially, she just said she was breaking up with me so she could live her own life. I was shocked, and just walked away. Our life plans up to that point had mainly revolved around going to graduate school together and staying in Dallas. I had been feeling restless in school for a while, and had sort of fancifully thought of joining the Army. But when she broke up with me, I started really looking into it, I liked what I saw, and I decided to go for it. In the next 3 weeks we saw each other a lot, being neighbors and having a dog together. We started talking, I found out about Germany, we talked about a lot of things, including my decision to join the Army. Over the next month or so we realized that going in separate directions for a few months was no reason to end the best relationship of our lives, and that we wanted to be together forever. We decided to get married, and I would be in basic training and OCS while she was in Germany. This worked out well as I was able to offer her some financial support, as well as pay to keep a luxurious apartment in Dallas with all of our things in it. When she came back from Germany that spring, she had a fabulous place to live and could just go to school without working due to my support. We communicated in letters, emails and phone calls as often as we could.

As she neared graduation, we discussed the various options. She had long planned to go to grad school, but the only ones she wanted to go to were far away from where I would be. So we decided that the best way for us to be together and stay together would be for her to join the Army (oh how little we knew.) So off she went to basic training while I was in Field Artillery school at Fort Sill. She wrote me often and I wrote back as often as I could (our class average was 72%, it was a tough course.) I saw her briefly between her basic training and OCS in Houston when her sister was very ill. I took her mother apartment shopping (just the two of us) and helped out as much as I could. My wife and got along well and really enjoyed each others company.

Then she went to OCS. We still talked for usually an hour a night, but she had her friends that she wanted to hang out with, so she was pretty busy. I was at Fort Polk and knew no one, so I was pretty lonely. I trained for a marathon with our dog every day, usually running 8 miles a day, and 16 miles on the weekends. I cooked meals for the dog and myself. My job was essentially nothing, and totally unfulfilling. When she found out her branch, and her school date, it was nearly 9 months out. We assumed that it wouldn't be a problem to have her come stay with me at Fort Polk while she waited for her school date, as there were commanders willing to take her on, and good, field relevant work for her to do, and I knew other people that had done the same. When her branch manager told me NO, NO WAY NO HOW I was devastated. I was in tears in public, in front of people I worked with. I rallied my strength and started to fight, getting my BN commander, and BDE commander involved. But the fight fizzled as the branch manager refused to budge. As a last resort, I wrote my senator back in Texas.

She finished OCS very near the top of her class and got her job of choice. I went to the formal, and the graduation, meeting all of her friends (including OM, who shook my hand, and OMW) and hanging out with them for a week. In retrospect she seemed a little different, less talkative, but I didn't really realize it then.

Then she came to Fort Polk with me for 2 weeks for recruiting duty. It was essentially 2 weeks off for her. We drove from Fort Benning to Fort Polk in 2 days, the last night pushing her to the limits of her endurance, and her breaking down in tears on the side of the highway screaming at me that she couldn't take any more. I felt terrible. I just assumed she wouldn't have a problem driving if I wasn't having a problem.

The next 2 weeks were tense. I assumed it was the friction of not having lived together in a while. I would try to talk, and get shut down. We spent some time together, but I was still going to work so she was on her own for most of the daytime. At night we struggled to watch the same things on TV, and when she would put on something I didn't want to watch, I would get up and go to the other room. There was a pretty big disconnect between us, and she seemed very quick to get very angry over little things. I was really, really depressed when she left to drive to Fort Huachuca.

A few weeks later I got the first BIG phone bill that made me do a double take with the amount of phone calls she was making to someone with a Fort Polk phone number. I remember her saying her friend was from Fort Polk, so I knew it was him. I immediately asked her she was talking to him so much when she could be talking to me and texting me. She said that he was just a friend from OCS that helped her out a lot and that they were still keeping in touch. She said she couldn't believe I snooped through the phone bill to see who I was talking to. Didn't I want her to have friends? I felt ashamed and stupid. I've never been a jealous, controlling type of person, so I dismissed all of those thoughts immediately, and didn't even consider it again.

Soon enough we were together at Christmas. I had PRK eye surgery in San Antonio and she drove in from Arizona to spend the time with me while I recovered, and drove me back to Dallas to be with my family. We had a great time at Christmas, the pictures turned out great of us around the house, we all had fun even though my eyes hurt, and it was wonderful. The day we were leaving my parents house to go down to Houston to see her family for New Years, something happened. She left her phone on the kitchen table and a text message flashed across the screen, from OM: "You make me feel like a love crazed teenager."

I didn't say anything until one night at our hotel room in Houston a couple days later. I asked again about the nature of their relationship and told her that I was not comfortable with it. She said they were just friends, nothing more. I asked if maybe just he felt they were more than friends, or wanted to be. She said no. I was in tears at this point, frustrated at having her lie to my face. I told her I didn't believe her. She attacked back hard, asking how I could not trust her, "that's just great, my husband doesn't even trust me!" She then said that if their friendship bothered me so much, she would end it. I felt like that was the answer I wanted. I realize now that if I would have just told her that I saw the text message, we might not be in the situation we're in right now. But I felt guilty somehow for seeing it on her phone. I felt like it must have been a misunderstanding and I didn't want to destroy her faith in me any more. At this point she was very angry, and begin saying that she didn't think that I found her attractive, that we didn't talk enough, that we didn't do things together. I was emotionally and physically exhausted. We both went to sleep.

The next day at her parents house, her phone rang in the other room, and her mother yelled, "It's OM!" She looked at me with terror in her eyes and said, "I'm sorry, I told him not to call, I'm so sorry." I didn't understand why she seemed so apologetic, I was like, "It's ok, it's not a big deal."

The rest of the time together seemed fine. She drove me back to Fort Polk (I was still pretty much blind) and we hardly talked at all. It seemed like every time I tried to talk she would just quickly kill the conversation. In retrospect I wish I had tried harder to get her to open up, because it was 3 hours of uninterrupted "us" time.

She dropped me off, we had sex before she left (our sex life has always been pretty healthy, aside from her issues with feeling that I'm not attracted to her.) I was again severely depressed to have her drive away, back to Arizona, not even knowing when I'd see her again.

We talked online, with the webcam, and over the phone for at least an hour a night for the next month. I planned to come see her in February. Things seemed good, we were talking a lot, being very loving and I felt good about everything, I was so excited to go and see her. And then, come the end of March, I'm told, with about 4 days notice, that I'll be deploying to Afghanistan. My parents drive out from Dallas to get the dog, I'm scrambling to get immunizations and gear issued to me and everything packed. Also my car starts having problems. I tell my wife as soon as I know, and as her to see if her commander will give her a 4 day pass to see her husband before he deploys. Her commander comes back and says only a 2 day pass, a regular weekend. We started looking for flights, but due to the isolation of Fort Polk and Fort Huachuca, the only way we could make it happen would be for her to fly all day saturday and arrive Sunday morning, and then fly out about 6 hours later. The cost was $1200. I told her I didn't think it was a good idea, with everything else going on, and that it was only 6 months. She said, "Ok" and hung up. I didn't hear from her again for 24 hours. When I did talk to her she was bawling. "I can't believe my husband didn't want to see me before he went off to war!" "Do you know what it's like, to go into the office and tell people that I'm not going to take the pass, because my husband doesn't want to see me?" I tried to reason with her and tell her that's not how I felt at all, that I desperately wanted to see her but it just didn't seem possible. She said, "even if we could have just seen each other at the airport, it would have been worth it to me!" I responded, "If you felt that way then why didn't you say so?" She said, "How could I argue with a husband who doesn't want to see his wife before he goes off to war?" I tried to apologize, explain, everything, but I really feel like she never got over this.

Also, I received a phone call from my senator the day before I left for Afghanistan. She was shocked at the travesty of separating us for no reason, and just needed us to sign a release of privacy statement so she could start working towards moving my wife to Fort Polk immediately. I explained to her that I appreciated her concern, but I was going to Afghanistan anyway.

So off I go to Afghanistan, and we're talking a lot, about an hour a day, exchanging emails, and I think things are good. I'm sending lots of little gifts to her in the mail to let her know I'm thinking about her. Like things she saw months ago and mentioned she liked, like a Snuggie (from tv) or a pajamagram when it got cold, or flowers and a card when she had her wisdom teeth out.

Then after 2 months here I see the phone bill with her talking to him again. I hadn't looked at it after she said she wouldn't talk to him anymore. But then I looked back another month and I could see where as soon as I deployed, he started texting, and calling. At first she didn't respond, but after a few days it looks like she gave in. Then there were 4 hour phone calls, tons of text messages, picture messages etc.

I feel like she may have been sincere about cutting off the affair after Christmas, and the phone bill from January says that she did, there was no contact. But the trauma caused by me leaving without seeing her seemed to put her back into the affair. And it's like a mantra in her head now, "you didn't want to see me before you left." It's just not true, I desperately wanted to see her before I left.

So that's kind of the history of our marriage. We had a very strong foundation of talking, and being best friends, and spending time together. But we've been apart for so long now, I feel like her memories of those good times have faded, and she just sees bad things now. She's said she isn't happy and hasn't been happy in a long time. She says she thinks getting married was a mistake. She says that she's been faking climaxes for a while in bed, but that she easily climaxed with the OM.

It's such a tragic situation because I feel like if we could have spent a little more time together, even at the point where I confronted her, that this all could have been worked out so much better. Being there in person to hold her hand and look into her eyes. She did the Marriage builder stuff for 3 days, and I really thought we were going to make it. But with no one to hold her accountable and without anyone there to support her, she relapsed into the OM.

And now I feel like she's going to be so angry and so betrayed over turning her in that there's no chance of her ever forgiving me.

I still really, truly love her, and I could forgive everything she's done. I feel like we're just a few months away from actually living together for years at time, and being really happy together again, and we're being cheated out of it by the terrible circumstances.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 02:35 PM
Also, I'm pretty sure that if she said she talked to a divorce attorney, she did. She knew all the details of what it would take to get a divorce while I'm here. She specifically said she sent the papers with the waiver I would have to sign in order to waive my right to personal jurisdiction (basically accept that I've been served.) So I'm pretty sure she's not bluffing.
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 02:50 PM
Gerk,

You haven't had a marriage. What you just described is a train wreck. It also feeds into my idea that the military lifestyle can force bad relationships to stay together when they should have withered and died long ago. The key word there is "can". There's tons of good marriages in the military. There's many bad ones as well. I personally jumped into one that is similar to yours in circumstances.

You mentioned something which resonated. Your WW suffered sexual abuse as a child. Not to over generalize, since I know several normal women who were similar victims, but this has a massive impact on a woman as she gets older if she doesn't deal with it.

She has a massive scar in her psyche. This is going to be there for a loooooong time. She will have a constant craving for attention from men. She has a low self esteem to buck up her feeligns. When you're gone, she will seek that elsewhere. My exww, with similar issues to yours, sought friendships with men and turned away from friendships with women, who she didn't trust.

There are massive trust issues with victims of this crime. I didn't understand it in the person I knew who was a victim. I also didn't know about what happened to her as a child. I saw someone who was terrified of being alone.

You are married to a very broken woman with massive psych issues. This isn't one where standard tactics from MB will work. She will stay broken and the only way she can get better is for her to seek help for herself.

I was a hopeless romantic like you when I was your age. I'm 37 now. Just salty enough to know better. True love isn't like what you describe. True love has it's romance, but it isn't artificial, forced, or in spurts. It's a slow burn that is always there and doesn't fizzle out when distance is introduced.

Your WW will seek the attention of men every time she's alone and you deploy. She hates being alone and will always crave that attention. She does it because she's broken inside and is very insecure.

I'm the lone voice in the wilderness, but the best thing for you to do is walk away, count your blessings that you have no kids to deal with this woman with, and find a woman that doesn't need to be rescued or who craves attention. It's a wonderful thing to find that.

By no means do I think that this is easy or doesn't hurt. But you will be grateful this woman is out of your life someday.

Take it from a man who knows, has been in your shoes, and who relates to MUCH in your story. Been there, done that, got the scars.
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 02:59 PM
Originally Posted by helpthelostdads
Gerk,




She has a massive scar in her psyche. This is going to be there for a loooooong time. She will have a constant craving for attention from men. She has a low self esteem to buck up her feeligns. When you're gone, she will seek that elsewhere. My exww, with similar issues to yours, sought friendships with men and turned away from friendships with women, who she didn't trust.

Your WW will seek the attention of men every time she's alone and you deploy. She hates being alone and will always crave that attention. She does it because she's broken inside and is very insecure.

Very true words above. I am no psychiatrist but I believe HTLD is probably right here. I also think there may be a possibility that there was an OM in Germany due to the strange way that seemed to go down.

You broke up, and then decided to get married all of a sudden? You supported her in a fancy apartment in Dallas so she didn't work and could go full time to school?

This seems to be a marriage of convenience for her and it seems to me like she may have been manipulating you all along. The Military can be very hard on marriages, but in my case as well, when you separate from a woman that craves the attention of men like my WW, it is a recipe for sure disaster.

I like your attitude that you are trying now, in part, so that you will always be able to honestly say that you gave it your all; I did the same thing.

Her world is going to blow up soon. She will possibly return to you with tears in her eyes asking for your forgiveness...and support. Then the next OM comes along next deployment?

Just thinking out loud. Keep on with the MB plan, but with your eyes open.

SWW
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 02:59 PM
I knew about her abuse before we were married. Sadly I never asked her too much about it because it made me so sad, and angry and hurt to hear how someone hurt this wonderful woman that I loved. I realize now that we should have talked about it (she's talked about it with OM) and she should have gone to therapy. She's going to therapy now. Her therapist is telling her do whatever makes you happy right now, and encouraging her to pursue the affair.

But my point is I made a commitment to her, knowing that she had some issues. I truly feel that she's not 100% to blame for what she's done, she was placed in these ridiculous circumstances by our army circumstances without the ability to cope with it adequately. I feel that she's out of control of her actions and she needs me now more than ever. And I'll be there for her until she makes me go away. Never quit, never surrender.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 03:03 PM
I am far, far more committed to my marriage than I am the army. If I can save my marriage, I'm out. I don't need this. I've done my part, I've taken my lumps and suffered for my country. Every day there's nice weather here people try to blow me up. If the Army had been just slightly more accommodating in letting her come to Fort Polk with me, instead of supporting their red tape for the sole purpose of it being red tape, this wouldn't have happened.

In other words, there won't be any more deployments. If she comes to Fort Polk, she'll be in my non-deployable unit. This little 40 man deployment will be the last the brigade ever musters before it fades away into nothingness in the next 2-3 years.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 03:12 PM
Do not blame yourself for her choice to jump back into the A. That was 100% her choice.

A's are extremely addictive! Even if she had flown out to say goodbye to you, she would have found another reason to justify her jumping back into the A.

You were absolutely right to call her out on her responsibilty to tell you that she wanted to see you, no matter what. When she finally told you how she felt and you explained how much you DID want to see her, that would have been enough to smooth over any hurt feelings she had...if she wasn't engaged in an A.

She continued to hold onto this issue b/c she needed it to justify her affair, not b/c it was an unforgiveable incident.

So please stop beating yourself up over it.

Quote
And now I feel like she's going to be so angry and so betrayed over turning her in that there's no chance of her ever forgiving me.


It's tough to stay angry forever. W/o motivation....like an ongoing affair. Once she gets through W/drawals she will begin to think clearer. By then you will be home. Don't give up hope.

Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 03:27 PM
I felt like you as well about the AF. My mind was clouded by the desire to point the finger anywhere else but the real problem, which was my W.

I was blaming the wrong entity.

True, you certainly have paid the price for your country, but trust me when I tell you that being together will not solve your problems with a woman like this.

You will eventually disappoint her, as you have already through no fault of your own, and she will seek attention elsewhere. Read up on the victims of this crime. She's following the pattern. Women like her seek romance for the wrong reasons. You WILL be burned again.

If you leave the army and she recommitts, you will be burned again.

This woman is broken in the head more than your standard WW. This isn't a normal woman who stumbled into a mistake. This is a woman who will constantly seek the attention of men regardless of her marital status. She will continue to have poor boundaries.

Yes, you committed. I commend you for that. I did too. I had the same attitude. I was going to stick by my WW to the end and pay any price necessary to save my marriage and keep the family intact.

Divorcing her, as much as it hurt and I didn't want it, was one of the best things that has ever happened to me. I was married to an overgrown child. To this day she uses medical problems to get attention (not an uncommon problem in these victims either).

Do more research. Look at the long term impact of what she's suffered. It is lasting, it runs deep, and will mess her up for years to come unless she gets proper treatment or deals with it appropriately.

To any victims of abuse reading this: I understand that not all women deal with this problem in the same way. I understand that some grow up to become perfectly normal women with healthy relationships. But some women carry this crime with them for life and never get help.

Your WW is addicted to being in love. Normal love is alien to her. The high of new relationships is what she considers love. The long term commitment is boring to her. She sees this as "we lost the passion" or "I don't feel about you like I use to".

You could be Casenova, James Bond, and Superman all rolled into one and she will eventually find you inadequate.

This is harsh truth to hear. Take it as advice from a man who was exactly where you are and thinking exactly the same things.

Ridding yourself of her will eventually be a liberating thing. Kids with this woman will be a big mistake, since the eventual divorce will involve a custody fight with an equally selfish woman who believes she's entitled to sole physical and legal custody and will fight you tooth and nail.

Either that, or she'll walk away from the kids to pursue her future OM, abandoning them for her selfish interests.

Neither of those scenarios is good to deal with. Again, take it from a man who literally has the heart damage after having gone through it.

MB will not work on a woman like this. She is broken and will stay broken and won't seek you out unless she has something personal to gain from it.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 03:28 PM
In my opinion you just described an incredibly flawed person that needs romance and attention to overcome her self-esteem issues and sexual abuse history. She seems like the exact personality type to have multiple affairs in the future to keep from feeling "empty" inside.

You also seem like a person drawn to the romance. Did you fall in love with her despite her flaws in part because she was hypersexual? I know how hard it is to break up with a girl that is hypersexual. I also know many guys that fall in love with any girl that has sex with them. Understanding the MB concepts can easily explain why if sexual fulfillment is a top EN. I also fear that like myself, you have a bit of the "white knight" syndrome, wanting to rescue a girl you feel needs you because they will love you more for saving them. However, that usually backfires because the girl usually just winds up using you until they find the next white knight to save them from their current relationship.

What I'm saying to you, is that your courtship was not ideal, and you should not have made the commitment to this person at this point in your life, even if you loved her. Hey, looking back on things, I should have never married my wife (I'm still married to her by the way). There were a ton of red flags and I ignored them and made a commitment to a person I should not have committed to. My 6.5 years have marriage have been a struggle, and my life would have been a lot easier had I chosen a more suitable partner.

Your WW was probably an low self-esteem emotional just kind of floating along in life without a ton of direction and this great guy just swooped her off her feet, and you wanting her made her feel good about herself again. Then reality sets in, you rarely see each other, and you just don't make her feel good about herself anymore. Then she starts seeking out something to make her feel better and the professional cheaters pick her up on their radar and take advantage of that neediness. Then your WW would do anything to continue to get that high that she gets from the desire of other men.

My advice to you would be if you are going to continue to try and save this relationship is this. Get NC established. Come home. After 6 months of NC and 3 months of plan A when home, if she is not willing to recommit and truly follow ALL of the MB program, then rid yourself of this woman and find a more suitable partner in the future. You do not want this happening again when you have kids. Use your experience to keep from falling for the wrong type of woman again. Forget the romance (not completely). Who would be best suited to raise your child?
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 03:32 PM
Also, how did you ever find out it was physical? Did she admit to it at some point?
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 03:32 PM
You are a good man.

Every woman wants to be fought for.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 03:41 PM
Quote
MB will not work on a woman like this. She is broken and will stay broken and won't seek you out unless she has something personal to gain from it.


This may or may not be true. Jeff hasn't even gotten the chance to TRY MB princples in his M.

And MORE importantly, he WANTS to try.

Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 03:43 PM
BTW,

I too had the White Knight Syndrome. It's something to explore. We get a certain satisfaction from rescuing the damsels in distress.

Those damsels are exciting women. The sex is ofen awesome (my psycho ex fiance was hot and hypersexual) and the troubles she deals with which you're rescuing her from are exciting elements in the relationship.

But the woman is using you. She is not consciously doing it, but you're in the picture for only as long as you're useful.

I had many White Knight relationships, starting with high school through to my exww.

When I divorced I started to follow the same pattern. I met a woman in my divorce group who had been cheated on and was hurting over it and I fell for her. I had that White Knight idea that I could show her how she should be loved, etc, etc.

I'm glad I recognized the dead end that was before going further.

I made a conscious decision to seek women who were independent, on their own two feet, and didn't need me for anything other than companionship, good company, and where a relationship could develop.

I've met such a woman and we're marrying soon. I'm very happy and I know I have someone in my life that is an equal partner and not one in need of rescue of any type.

Your WW is a really broken soul.

Part of your personal fog is your age. I have a decade of experience on you as a man who is very similar in values as you are. The White Knight thing is something I had to consciously fight.

We give you this feedback as food for though. By no means do I expect you to say, "You guys are right. I'm ending this right now and counting my lucky stars."

You're hurting and are in a bit of denial. Chew and digest the thoughts we're giving you. A little emotional distance will help you see the truth in what we say.

Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 03:44 PM
Originally Posted by Marshmallow
Every woman wants to be fought for.

Not mentally stable ones.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 03:51 PM
Originally Posted by jmwc95
Also, how did you ever find out it was physical? Did she admit to it at some point?

Yes, she told me during her first one day "break down" where she was saying she loves me and wants to try marriage counseling and work on our marriage. She said they had sex at OCS, and that she was able to climax from it. She said that she used to with me, but over time she's felt like I'm less and less attracted to her and so she's been faking it because she's not into it. Keep in mind her sex drive outstrips my own, and when together initiation is usually 50\50 on both our parts.

During her 3 day "break down" where she read marriage builders, ordered the books, we both filled out the EN questionnaire, and I filled out a personal history (she didn't finish hers before she reverted back to the OM.) Her questionnaire put sexual satisfaction as her 3rd need, with her satisfaction with me as a 2. Her explanation was that she was no longer able to climax from sex because she feels that I'm not attracted to her.

Still, rough stuff to hear. I'm always telling her how sexy she is, how beautiful she is, how much I enjoy our sex life, buying her lingerie, etc. I think that her sexual satisfaction was probably impacted by her lack of feeling connected to me, via communication and affection, which she was instead having with the OM. Her memory of "bad things" in our marriage focuses primarily on things that have occurred while she was having the affair.

I've never had complaints about lack of sexual satisfaction before from other women. We're both very experienced people, me from high school\college days, and her from middle school through college. I've been with about 50 partners, she's been with about 30. So I didn't rush into marriage because of her hypersexuality, or because she was the first woman I've had sex with.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 04:04 PM
Originally Posted by helpthelostdads
Not mentally stable ones.

Quote
The deep cry of every woman is am I lovely? Every woman needs to know that she is exquisite and exotic and chosen. This is the core to her identity. The way she bears the image of God. Will you pursue me? Do you delight in me? Will you fight for me?

.....................

Even if he can't quite put into words, every man is haunted by the question, "Am I really a man? Have I got what it takes...when it counts?"


Excerpts from the book Wild at Heart Discovering the Secrets of a Man's Soul.

Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 04:09 PM
Hi Gurka,

Thanks for sharing your story with us... it does help fill in some gaps.

One of the things that you will find here on the MB pages is that we that post here speak from our own personal experience. We share them with others that are hurting for various reasons, but believe that most that share do so in the hope that the pain that they've been through and the lessons that they've learned will help someone.

I'm not about to say that any of the posters here are wrong and that you should follow ___'s advice unless it is reinforcing the MB princples.

You are getting a lot of great information here on various situations with BH's that had a WW that was similar to your situation. Please remember that EVERY situation is different, and in the end, it is YOUR decision as to what you want to do.

The facts that the other posters have laid out to you are very similar to what I delt with with Mrs. RIF. For us, we were able to move back to the states and we were able to establish a "normal" marriage in that I wasn't constantly in the field for training, and back then , there weren't any deployments.

Mrs. RIF eventually got the counseling and medical treatment that she needed, and she eventually confessed to the A that I suspected with one of my soldiers, as well as five more that all occured while we were stationed overseas... Her confession was 10 years after her last A.

It took us about 2.5 years to rebuild our M after her confession to the other A's.

Please keep reading here and keep focusing on ending the A and plan-A'ing her when she tries to hurt you. Once she has been in NC with the OM, you can then evaluate what direction you'd like to go.

You don't have to decide today. So focus on what you can control right now, and don't worry about "what if" way down the road...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: markos Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 04:10 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
I am far, far more committed to my marriage than I am the army. If I can save my marriage, I'm out.


hurray

All right! More committed to your marriage than the army? YOU are my HERO, Soldier! I salute you, and I want you to know that you are a Great American.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 04:11 PM
I'm going to start calling you Wilt. wink

Seriously, it's scary that she needs sex to feel good about herself and that she can't climax anymore with you because she doesn't feel you desire her anymore. That is not good or normal. She has major issues that she will need to get fixed before she can have any healthy relationships, and you can't fix her. I'm afraid she may bounce from relationship to relationship looking for someone she can "climax" with until she can't climax with them anymore. Then she repeats the pattern. If you save your marriage you will have to be on high alert all the time because she is definitely wired to cheat much more than the average person.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 04:15 PM
Gerk had it right when he said..

Quote
I think that her sexual satisfaction was probably impacted by her lack of feeling connected to me, via communication and affection, which she was instead having with the OM.

Posted By: believer Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 04:16 PM
Did you notice that she didn't climax with you?

Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 04:17 PM
Quote
If you save your marriage you will have to be on high alert all the time because she is definitely wired to cheat much more than the average person.

I just don't understand how you can say this.

When was there a time when Gerk and his W were living together, meeting each other's needs when she cheated on him?

Posted By: believer Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 04:24 PM
I agree with Marsh 100%.

And being in the military and the separations are hard on marriages. I worked for 5 different 2nd LT's in the past 10 years and ALL of them got out. With the wars going on, even if you are not deployed, there are long, almost impossible hours. My last one worked from 4:00AM to 9:00PM, and most weekends. His wife left him and moved back home. He got out and they now are happily married and have 2 sons. And by the way, he used the MB program.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 04:29 PM
Originally Posted by believer
I agree with Marsh 100%.

I agree with Believer, 101 %.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 04:34 PM
Originally Posted by believer
Did you notice that she didn't climax with you?

No, she was faking. I noticed that she seemed to not be enjoying herself as much as she used to, and I asked her about it when I noticed (I've always felt that talking about sex is the best way to make it better.) She said she didn't know why.
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 04:40 PM
Quote
She specifically said she sent the papers with the waiver I would have to sign in order to waive my right to personal jurisdiction (basically accept that I've been served.)


If she is sending you a waiver (and divorcing in Texas) DO NOT SIGN THAT WAIVER. Yes, it is a waiver of service but it can also be a waiver of your rights to be notified of any future hearings, etc. In other words, she could get your signed waiver, file it with the court, wait 60 days and then go to the courthouse WITHOUT YOU or notice to you and prove up her divorce. You could be divorced within 60 days of the date you sign the waiver.

Force her to personally serve you. Also, I believe that in Texas if you are active duty stationed overseas, any divorce action would be put on hold. Not 100% sure about that but I am SURE about the waiver. I'll check the rules.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 04:43 PM
Hey Gurka,

Just wanted to remind you of something... ALL of us are "wired" to commit adultery.

One of the things that MB did for Mrs. RIF and I was that it showed us that we BOTH needed to place specific boundaries within our M to make sure that we protect it at all times... that's why spending time together is so critical to the MB program.

Stay focused on ending the A and don't worry about the things that you can't control right now...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 04:44 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
What I don't understand is how she thought this would go from the outset. A man 10 years older, married with kids, also in the Army, while she's married to an Army officer. Even when I confronted her initially and asked her how she thought it could work out for the two of them, she said, "I don't know, it's hard to tell the future..." in kind of a hazy voice. It's like she hasn't been able to see past the end of her nose for 6 months.

I highlighted your critical error: waywards don't think.
Posted By: believer Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 04:44 PM
Yep, don't cooperate, drag it out.

You can have a great marriage again. Believe that.

Posted By: Pepperband Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 04:45 PM
Originally Posted by RIF
Stay focused on ending the A and don't worry about the things that you can't control right now...

Semper Fi,

AMEN !
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 04:49 PM
Quote
You mentioned something which resonated. Your WW suffered sexual abuse as a child. Not to over generalize, since I know several normal women who were similar victims, but this has a massive impact on a woman as she gets older if she doesn't deal with it.

She has a massive scar in her psyche. This is going to be there for a loooooong time. She will have a constant craving for attention from men. She has a low self esteem to buck up her feeligns. When you're gone, she will seek that elsewhere. My exww, with similar issues to yours, sought friendships with men and turned away from friendships with women, who she didn't trust.

This is a generalization. Be careful with those.
Posted By: markos Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 04:50 PM
Originally Posted by helpthelostdads
MB will not work on a woman like this. She is broken and will stay broken and won't seek you out unless she has something personal to gain from it.

"She won't seek you out unless she has something personal to gain from it" sounds pretty much exactly like the way MB works, to me!

Here is what Marriage Builders actually says about childhood abuse issues:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5019_qa.html

Quote
Now for your second question: Is it possible for a damaged person to be a good wife?

My experience, having counseled hundreds who have experienced childhood abuse, has led me to the conclusion that childhood abuse does not damage a person. While it's a hotly debatable position, it's what I strongly believe.

So I begin my answer with the assumption that the experiences of your childhood are far less likely to affect your ability to meet your husband's needs (or have him meet yours) than you suspect. Any sensitivities you have developed as a result of abuse have not "ruined" you because they can be accommodated by your future husband. It's all part of learning how to be emotionally connected to someone else. My Policy of Joint Agreement is a terrific learning aid in helping couples adjust to all sorts of sensitivities.

A couple of other related articles:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8115_prob.html
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5013_qa.html


A reminder, from the top of this page:
Quote
Sometimes you may hear alternative opinions that conflict with Dr. Harley's Ten Basic Concepts. These are often raised by those who have not solved their own marital problems, but still feel they are qualified to advise others. When this happens you can expect some members to explain why their approach won't work, and why Marriage Builders� offers a better solution. There are many who are offended when that happens, but please keep in mind that the ultimate purpose of this Forum is to discuss and learn Marriage Builders� concepts.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 04:51 PM
Quote
I knew about her abuse before we were married. Sadly I never asked her too much about it because it made me so sad, and angry and hurt to hear how someone hurt this wonderful woman that I loved. I realize now that we should have talked about it (she's talked about it with OM) and she should have gone to therapy. She's going to therapy now. Her therapist is telling her do whatever makes you happy right now, and encouraging her to pursue the affair.

So you're saying it's a good idea for her to have therapy for her childhood abuse with a person who's encouraging her affair?? crazy
Posted By: Pepperband Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 04:54 PM
Originally Posted by markos
A reminder, from the top of this page:
Sometimes you may hear alternative opinions that conflict with Dr. Harley's Ten Basic Concepts. These are often raised by those who have not solved their own marital problems, but still feel they are qualified to advise others. When this happens you can expect some members to explain why their approach won't work, and why Marriage Builders� offers a better solution. There are many who are offended when that happens, but please keep in mind that the ultimate purpose of this Forum is to discuss and learn Marriage Builders� concepts.


DITTO !
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 04:56 PM
I plan on dragging it out as long as I can until I feel that she's in a position to make rational decisions again. It boggles my mind that when she's screaming at me she's telling me I'm being crazy and she's perfectly rational.

I'm not signing anything here in Afghanistan. If (when) I get any kind of legal paperwork in the mail, I'll take it to the SJA at a nearby camp and have them advise me. I'm protected from any kind of civil actions by the SSCRA, a federal law, until I return from deployment. I think by that point (3 months from now) she'll have calmed down enough that we can make some decisions.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 04:58 PM
Quote
So you're saying it's a good idea for her to have therapy for her childhood abuse with a person who's encouraging her affair??


Hi MB,

I didn't read it that way at all...

I read it as a description of the condition of his marriage from a solider that is 7,000 miles away from home who is trying to do the best he can to fight for his marriage...

Please, Let's try and focus on helping Gurka instead of analyzing his posts.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 05:01 PM
Originally Posted by RIF
Hey Gurka,
Just wanted to remind you of something... ALL of us are "wired" to commit adultery.

One of the things that MB did for Mrs. RIF and I was that it showed us that we BOTH needed to place specific boundaries within our M to make sure that we protect it at all times... that's why spending time together is so critical to the MB program.

Stay focused on ending the A and don't worry about the things that you can't control right now...

Semper Fi,

RIF

What RIF said. I really get lathered up when all survivors of childhood abuse get tagged with crap like "damaged, self-esteem problems, seeking out men/terrified of men, don't trust men/women," blah blah blah. Do not distract yourself with her childhood issues right now. Right now you need to get her back with you and establish NC. Oy vey. mad
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 05:05 PM
Hey Gurka,

How have you been doing with reading up on Plan-A?

There are some good suggestions up in the Military section... When you get a chance, take a look at some of the ways that you can meet your W's EN's while you're deloyed...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 05:31 PM
Gurka and everyone else,

Sorry to go off psychoanalyzing your WW. Not all abuse victims are permanently damaged goods. I do not know your WW. I guess maybe I am projecting some of my own feelings and experience onto your situation. I respect that you are fighting for your marriage, and I hope this turns out well for you. Up until this point, your marriage never stood much of a chance because of the distance and circumstances. Hopefully, your WW will buy into MB and you will have a great marriage in the future. I just wanted to make sure you didn't overlook anything. There are plenty of BSs that have come here that are clinging to marriages with awful people and continue to take the abuse, hoping their spouse will change. Good luck, and I'll drop the psychoanalysis for good. I just wanted to get more of the backstory to understand your situation better to help advise on what to do going forward. Stay safe.
Posted By: coachswife Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 07:29 PM
Hi there-

I wanted to weigh in on the sexual abuse and adultery issue. I was abused in every way growing up- including sexual. My mother told me I was lying about her husband molesting me and believed him over me. I had to live in the house with him until I was old enough to move out. I was extremely anger at my mother for not protecting me. You grow to distrust people when the person who is to care for you the most doesn't.

My grandmother was the only person who loved me growing up. She instilled in me values and loved me unconditionally. I was unhappy in my marriage because I couldn't get my ex to meet any of my needs- and he wasn't interested in doing so. I had a hysterectomy one week and my grandmother died the next at 93.

The one person who put me infront of themselves was gone from this earth- what was I going to do?? I had depended on so many things to fill my emotional love bank. My job, my husband, my house, my friends, my children. The thing that happens is that those things stop satisfying you and you have to move on to the next one.

The emotional hole is for me something only that God can fill- and if I seek anything else to fill it- it's a poor substitute.

I don't feel that I'm damaged goods- although I did commit adultery when I was married before. I have asked for forgiveness and have not received it (as is his right) but I know my Lord has forgiven me. I feel that I'm that much more of a person who will and has kept my boundaries in check now. Do I think I'll do it again? I don't feel that I will.

She needs some therapy- but you cannot force her to get well.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: WW waffling between us - 04/21/10 08:10 PM
Originally Posted by Dr Harley's newsletter
An analysis of the betrayed spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions.

'da bestest !
[Linked Image from millan.net] Dr. Harley = superhero


*link* to the newsletter

Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 03:09 AM
Good Morning Gurka!

How are you doing this morning?

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 03:41 AM
I said it before and I'll say it again: Not all abused women end up with the psych scars and they end up dealing with their abuse and have normal relationships.

Having experienced the other end, however, led me to do some research on the matter when I learned about it. The research I did suddenly opened my eyes and so much of what puzzled me in the marriage suddenly made sense.

So to dismiss it outright is wrong just as putting everything into it is wrong as well.

But that's putting things ahead of the more immediate issues at hand.

Ending the affair is number one regardless of whether or not you pursue divorce.

My contribution to you is merely in the fact that divorce will be/may be the most difficult thing you've ever gone through BUT the lessons learned from it can help you tremendously when you finally heal and decide to date again.

In other words, there is life after divorce and it can be much better than you imagined.

That's ultimately what I'm trying to say.

I relate to much of what you post, down to the feelings about deployments, your marriage, etc.

Keep your chin up and we'll be rooting for you.
Posted By: Fred_in_VA Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 04:11 AM
Originally Posted by Dr Harley's newsletter
An analysis of the betrayed spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions.
I've read this several times and each time I come away with the same thought:

Huh?

Why in the world is Dr. Harley suggesting the BETRAYED SPOUSE would have an affair???
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 04:35 AM
The OMW has contacted me again, saying that things have been aired and she feels that her husband is still lying to her even when he says he's telling her the "truth" about everything. She asked me to explain some of the problems in my marriage, and that she had talked to my WW, so that I shouldn't try to paint myself as a saint.

Certainly not what I expected. I seem to be the one on trial now.
Posted By: rwinger Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 04:43 AM
Just finished reading your stitch when you posted

Remember from her POV - she has a vested interest for this to go away quietly and quickly,

She may not be an ally but she will be watching on her end and that is good.

thanks for your service and sorry to see so many soldiers on this board lately...you hear how deployments are tough on the families but one doesnt realize that families are being destroyed during these times/
Posted By: Just Learning Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 04:55 AM
Gerka,

I am going to play devils advocate here. You don't have to explain your marriage to OM's W. If she has a specific incident she wants to check with you, then fine tell her. However, you might want to consider that he has convinced her that you are nuts and is using her to try and get information from you so that he knows what is coming. Your W might be in on this as well as she is still talking to OM.

I hate to be cautious here, but I think until the investigation takes place you need to just sit back and do your job. OM's W is going to find out about the investigation and the results so what you say or don't say will not aid her situation at this point.

I gather from your detailed history that it is likely the OM and your W hooked up in OCS and that at that point he was in her CoC. Is that right? If so you need to transmit that info to the powers that be. Also it is possible that other trainee's were aware of the affair. Most won't like having to lie for her and risk their careers. You might get some very good leverage from this.

Be cool, be quiet, and take care of business where you are.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 05:01 AM
No, they were both officer candidates together.

I've considered that perhaps they've "turned" her, but I'm not sure....
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 05:04 AM
Quote
She asked me to explain some of the problems in my marriage, and that she had talked to my WW, so that I shouldn't try to paint myself as a saint.


I can't imagine a BS writing this to another BS.

Could it be OM, writing to you, posing as his W?

Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 05:09 AM
Quote
The OMW has contacted me again, saying that things have been aired and she feels that her husband is still lying to her even when he says he's telling her the "truth" about everything.


First he says this...trying to get you to tell him more of what you know.

And then he gives you the second part...seeing if you can give him some dirt that he can use to discredit you.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 05:15 AM
She just told you she didn't see a need for further contact...and now this?

Doesn't make sense.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 05:44 AM
I wrote her back explaining how the affair started, how it progressed and what's happened since I've confronted her. I told her if she has specific questions that she needs answered so she can know her husband is lying, to ask and I will answer them.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 06:34 AM
Saw my WW withdrew about $4 from her joint account that had been put there for debit card rebates and interest. Such a petty little thing to do.

I'm concerned that since it's a joint account, some kind of autopayment or something may hit it, and then I'll be stuck with fees for no reason.
Posted By: Mr_Recon6mo Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 07:47 AM
Originally Posted by Marshmallow
Quote
She asked me to explain some of the problems in my marriage, and that she had talked to my WW, so that I shouldn't try to paint myself as a saint.


I can't imagine a BS writing this to another BS.

Could it be OM, writing to you, posing as his W?

I'm pretty sure that this is OM not OMW. OM knows that you are using email to contact OMW and it is VERY SIMPLE for him to get OMW mail account info and fake OMW. This is war also from his side and he will use everything he can against you!

Please proceed very cautiously, the best course of action right now is to stop communication with "OMW".
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 08:30 AM
When OMW originally contacted me she said her email was a personal one that her husband doesn't check. To be honest I have no idea what's going on. Him knowing what I told her won't save him though. I just sent in the other 4 months worth of phone bills to the investigators, not having looked at them myself since I first got them. The amount of contact between them is staggering, literally thousands of text messages, hundreds of calls. If the investigators are looking for a "pattern" I think they'll find one.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 10:02 AM
Good afternoon Gurka!

Quote
When OMW originally contacted me she said her email was a personal one that her husband doesn't check.


...yep, and I'm sure that OM told his W that he wasn't having an affair too. If OM was 'slick' enough to stay in an A with your W, then he's just laying another lie on his W about not checking her e-mail... assume that the OM is on the other end of OMW's e-mail.

I agree with the others... don't pass on any information to the OM'sW/OM until you can 100% verify who you're talking with on the other end.

OM's W knows about the A, and that's good enough for now.

Great job in providing the additional records... and yes, it will definitely help in showing a pattern.

Have you provided a sworn statement yet? If not, I would get started on that and list the FACTS as you know them. Try to be as specific as you can about contact between the OM and your W. Have your sworn statement signed off by your downrange commander and then send it to each of the commands.

Quote
To be honest I have no idea what's going on.

...um, yes you DO know what's going on! wink

You know that your W is/was having an A with OM.

You HAVE exposed A to their C-of-C.

You HAVE exposed A to your W's friends and Family.

You HAVE exposed A to OM's W.


So, given those facts, you pretty much know what the outcome of all of this will be, right???

THE AFFAIR BETWEEN YOUR WIFE AND OM WILL DIE!!!


Focus on this first step (ending the A) and Plan-A... you don't have to worry about any of the other "steps" right now.

Your goal is to end the A and show your W your BEST side and show her that you can be loving and kind to her no matter what venom she spews at you.

We'll cross the other bridges after we finish crossing this one...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 10:20 AM
So I should be waiting to hear from my WW, right? The last thing she said to me (over instant messsenger) was "I'll never talk to you again if you go through with this." So I assume I should wait to hear from her once she's had a while without the OM.

My BN commander told me that he doesn't need a sworn statement from me, though I offered. The other BN commanders are in charge of the investigations, and I assume they've appointed investigating officers who will contact me if they want a sworn statement.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 10:22 AM
Also, should I answer the phone when\if she calls?

Also can I get a good link to a good explanation of "Plan A" ?
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 10:28 AM
Quote
So I should be waiting to hear from my WW, right?


Hi Gurka,

I wouldn't be "waiting" as in waiting for a package to arrive... In other words, I suspect that you WILL hear from her at some point in time but try not to put a timelimit or timeframe on it.

I know this is hard, but try not to think:

"Ok, if I hear from her the next time I open up my e-mail, that will mean that I still have a chance..."

or

"If I have a message from her within the next 48 hrs then that will mean that she's mad at me, but willing to work things out..."

or

"If I don't hear from her within the next week, then all chance for rebuilding the M are off..."


Do you see where I'm trying to go with this? Don't set yourself up for dissapointment. Contact will most likely happen, and you should be preparing for it by studying up on some of the ways to reach out to her by meeting her EN's.

Read some of the ideas up in the military section...

If your BN Cdr said you don't need to do a sworn statement, then I'd follow his advice.

You're doing great!!! Just relax and study up on Plan-A and let the investigations happen...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 10:33 AM
Hey Gurka - If she calls and you feel that you can control your emotions and stick with your script "I love you and I am willing to do everythning possible to save our M." Then, yes, I think you should answer.

If you aren't sure that you can do this, then I would suggest not answering.

I know it's a hard decision because you want/need contact with your W... that's only natural. But remember, your "wife" is on another planet right now... think through how you'd handle a call from her when she starts off with something like this:

"Gurka, I TOLD you that if you went ahead with this that we're finished! Just wanted to let you know that it's OVER!!!"

If you can respond with your standard line and NOT get into any relationship talks, then go ahead and answer the phone....

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 10:35 AM
Like I said, I could use a good Plan A link. I know I've seen one, but I can't find it again.

We both filled out EN questionnaires during her 3 days of Marriage builders. Our EN rankings are almost identical in importance, none of our needs are more than 1 position off from each other. But where I felt that most of mine were reasonably well met by her (aside from honesty) she pretty much put that none of hers were fulfilled beyond a "1" by me. And instead of putting ways that I could improve the way I meet those needs, she just put criticisms of things that she didn't like.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 10:41 AM
I just read back through the EN questionnaire she filled out, and I guess she did say that I was doing an ok job at some things, ie attractiveness, admiration, sex was a 2.

I feel like our emotional needs are very similar judging from the questionnaire, and I know we've met each others before, but such a long time apart has eroded our ability to do that.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 10:44 AM
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

This is from the basic concepts part of the MB web site... I think you can search for theads by using the search tab on the top of your window...

Semper Fi,

RIF

*edited to add*

yep, the search tab at the top of the page... type "plan a" and it will list a bunch of links.

Hopefully some of the more experienced members will provide you some direct links to some of the better threads...
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 10:52 AM
I read the basics part, but it's not as good as the some of the better posts that list out the "carrot" and the "stick" parts.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 11:00 AM
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2356286&page=1

"Carrot and Stick of Plan A (Revisited)" by Pepperband...

Here you go Gurka!

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 11:19 AM
Looks like I'm doing a pretty good job of Plan A. Just need to wait for all the consequences to rain down, and her to start thinking clearly again.

Do you guys ever feel like you're acting as a parent by doing any of this? Like you're letting them learn their lesson in order to make them a better person? It seems difficult to see each other as equal partners in this situation.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 12:19 PM
Hey Gurka,

Yes, it can feel that way at times... keep reading and learning.

You're doing a super job!!!

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 12:25 PM
Gerka,

Are you dealing with combat patrols?

Keep your head in the game when you can. A distraction like this could literally cost you your life, not that you need to be told.

I'm guessing that if WW and OM have talked to OMW, then they have tried to paint you as a raving and jealous guy finding things where they don't exist.

I wouldn't write more to OMW. Perhaps a short note along the lines of:

OMW,

I wish to save my marriage and end this affair. Telling you was an important step.

I encourage you to do your own snooping to uncover the truth. Best of luck to you.

Gerka

That's all. Unless she starts spying and sharing intel with you, then you should have no need to contact her any further.

It will be iteresting to see how they respond to the hammer coming down. My guess is that OM will dump WW like a hot potato.

He's seeing things unravel as it is.

Best of luck.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 12:46 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
Looks like I'm doing a pretty good job of Plan A. Just need to wait for all the consequences to rain down, and her to start thinking clearly again.

Do you guys ever feel like you're acting as a parent by doing any of this? Like you're letting them learn their lesson in order to make them a better person? It seems difficult to see each other as equal partners in this situation.

Yes. I once was compared to "Chairman Mao" when I found her pre-paid calling card she used to contact OM after she had already agreed to NC and tore it up. How she "hated" that I was so "controlling." Well, after the addiction wore off, she got over it. It's sad when you have to treat your own wife like a rebellious, hormone-filled teenage daughter, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

Next time OMW says something to the effect of "you are no saint," I would respond by saying that "WW has painted you as a pretty crappy wife, but that it doesn't make it true. Would WW admit to cheating on a good husband, or would she just make excuses to justify her cheating?" I'm sick of people blaming the BS for the WS's affair. It happens all the time. "Well, she obviously wouldn't have cheated on you if you had a good marriage to begin with." Really?

Again, I know you want this affair to be over and your WW to get through withdrawal, like yesterday, but it is going to take some time. Be patient. It's a marathon, not a sprint.
Posted By: turtlehead Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 01:05 PM
What did she put as her top ENs?

Maybe we can help you think of ways to meet them from a distance. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it right now; she's madder than a wet hen and you can't make any LB$ deposits at the moment. But in a week or two you can start putting out little glimpses of what a great option the marriage is.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 01:06 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
The OMW has contacted me again, saying that things have been aired and she feels that her husband is still lying to her even when he says he's telling her the "truth" about everything. She asked me to explain some of the problems in my marriage, and that she had talked to my WW, so that I shouldn't try to paint myself as a saint.

Certainly not what I expected. I seem to be the one on trial now.

It is not abnormal for a BS to turn the tables and make the other parties the 'bad guys'. She's trying to protect the relationship she (thought) she had, and make it salvageable. It's easier to square the whole A if she can be left with a BH who is somewhat of a victim in her eyes.

Don't let her analysis of your M distract you. You've still given her a heads-up; what she does with that is up to her.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 01:12 PM
Just got a response from OMW:
Thanks, that's it. I won't be contacting you again.

I replied with what you guys recommended above, that telling her was an important step to saving my marriage, and the right thing to do, and that she should never feel like she or I are at fault for any of this.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 01:15 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
Just got a response from OMW:
Thanks, that's it. I won't be contacting you again.

I replied with what you guys recommended above, that telling her was an important step to saving my marriage, and the right thing to do, and that she should never feel like she or I are at fault for any of this.

That's fine. Although I don't think you should dismiss the possibility that she will contact you again. Right now she's in a state of disbelief, anger, outrage, etc. You are a reminder of a terrible crime against her. As she gets stronger she may contact you again. Good of you to leave the door open by being cordial in your response.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 02:48 PM
Originally Posted by Fred_in_VA
Originally Posted by Dr Harley's newsletter
An analysis of the betrayed spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions.
I've read this several times and each time I come away with the same thought:

Huh?

Why in the world is Dr. Harley suggesting the BETRAYED SPOUSE would have an affair???

Fred, you have no idea how pleased I am with you for catching this typo that I totally missed.
I copied/pasted this from the Harley newsletter.
Today I did a "notify mod" on Dr Harley ! grin

My brain read it the way I thought it should have been written, not the way it was written.

LOL
Hopefully, the typo will be corrected.


*muah*
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 03:08 PM
I slept last night from 11pm until 6am without taking anything to make me sleep. Went to the gym at lunch today (to lift weights) and then went running and did ab workouts\pullups\pushups. Jumped in the shower, put on a fresh clean uniform, fixed my hair and had a tasty dinner. Feeling pretty good today.

I feel like I have a plan and I'm executing it to the best of my ability, and it's worked pretty well so far (according to you guys.) I'm feeling kind of hopeful about my marriage, but I'm very worried about my wife and wish I could talk to her.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 03:33 PM
Evening Gurka,

Quote
I feel like I have a plan and I'm executing it to the best of my ability, and it's worked pretty well so far (according to you guys.) I'm feeling kind of hopeful about my marriage, but I'm very worried about my wife and wish I could talk to her.


Yes, you are doing a super job with your plan! And good for you for doing some things for yourself today!

Your wife will eventualy return... right now, she's fighting for the addiction that she knows will soon be taken away from her.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 03:46 PM
It feels torturous and wrong knowing that she's probably terrified of what's about to happen, and all alone right now. I feel like I want to hold her and tell her it'll all be ok. But I guess that just makes me a sucker.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 03:50 PM
How about contacting OM's parents now? Let OM know you are not backing down one bit.

Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 03:52 PM
No, it makes you a loving husband.

Pour out all your love for her in prayer, Gerk.

Hang in there.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 04:08 PM
Quote
But I guess that just makes me a sucker.


Nope, you're not a sucker. You're a warrior that's fighting for his marriage.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 04:09 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
It feels torturous and wrong knowing that she's probably terrified of what's about to happen, and all alone right now. I feel like I want to hold her and tell her it'll all be ok. But I guess that just makes me a sucker.

It makes you a loving H. hug

She needs to face the consequences of her adultery. Only then will she learn.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 04:13 PM
Do you guys really think that if her whole career in the Army (which she's really enjoyed so far, and was looking forward to the future in the Army) is destroyed in the next few weeks\months that she's going to get over that?
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 04:17 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
Do you guys really think that if her whole career in the Army (which she's really enjoyed so far, and was looking forward to the future in the Army) is destroyed in the next few weeks\months that she's going to get over that?

Yes. If that happens, then that door will close. Another will open.
Posted By: markos Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 04:20 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
Do you guys really think that if her whole career in the Army (which she's really enjoyed so far, and was looking forward to the future in the Army) is destroyed in the next few weeks\months that she's going to get over that?

An important question is, if it is destroyed, is it because of her behavior, or not?
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 04:26 PM
Yes.

If she loses her job, it will NOT be your fault.

It will be entirely hers.

She knew what risks she was taking w/ her career when she began it. The risk was part of the thrill for her...for them.





Posted By: markos Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 04:26 PM
Gerka, I said this before, but I want to say it again:

YOU are my HERO, Soldier! I salute you, and I want you to know that you are a Great American.

Keep up the great work!
Posted By: believer Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 04:32 PM
The part about blaming the BS just really makes me see red!

Never did get any answers from my ex, but was told by friends and the OW's husband that the reason he had an affair was because I was not into his motorcycles enough. And the day he met the OW, I was working OT to help buy my ex a brand new Harley, which had been his lifelong dream. Felt like a slap in the face.

Hang in there.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 04:35 PM
Originally Posted by believer
The part about blaming the BS just really makes me see red!

Never did get any answers from my ex, but was told by friends and the OW's husband that the reason he had an affair was because I was not into his motorcycles enough. And the day he met the OW, I was working OT to help buy my ex a brand new Harley, which had been his lifelong dream. Felt like a slap in the face.

Hang in there.

.... and ..... Believer got the Harley in the D settlement, then, Believer gifted the Harley to OWH.

Since Believer won't toot her own horn, I'll do it for you !
kiss
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 04:37 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
Do you guys really think that if her whole career in the Army (which she's really enjoyed so far, and was looking forward to the future in the Army) is destroyed in the next few weeks\months that she's going to get over that?

First of all, it probably won't be destroyed unless she and OM keep going down the same path they are going. Secondly, if it is destroyed, it is her fault not yours.

Honestly, what would you think is harder to get over, losing your job, or your spouse screwing another person and refusing to cut of all contact? If you can get over her infidelity, I'm POSITIVE she could get over a career setback. If she is not the kind of person that could get over it, then trust me, you a much better off without her. This will be her test of true character to determine whether or not she is still worthy of YOU, not the other way around.

I feel for you man. I wish I could send you a couple of my homebrews to calm you down. The WORST part is always right after exposure. It won't get any worse from here.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 05:02 PM
Quote
Do you guys really think that if her whole career in the Army (which she's really enjoyed so far, and was looking forward to the future in the Army) is destroyed in the next few weeks\months that she's going to get over that?


Hey Gurka - Yes, she'll get over it... it might take some time, but she will get over it and then will most likely regret her actions, because she will KNOW that her decisions and choices were the reason that she never had a career in the Army.

You're going to get e-mails/phone calls/chats where she will place 100% of the blame on you... don't buy into this. It was her decision to have an A and she's a big girl and knew the risks that she was taking.

Don't worry about her feelings for her career, they are her's and her's alone, and you are not responsible for her feelings.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 05:05 PM
I heard from a friend of mine @ Fort Sill that the FA BOLC has had to court martial an LT for sleeping with a 14 year old and another for adultery related charges in the last few months. Apparently the CG is running out of patience for this sort of thing.
Posted By: martes36 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 05:08 PM
A truly remorseful WW will 'recover' from the loss of her career due to her own actions. I put 'recover' in quotes b/c I don't like the implication of her being any kind of victim.

If she never gets over it, that's your strongest clue that she remains wayward, even if only in thought, not action.

Just my $0.02,

Martes
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 05:22 PM
Quote
Apparently the CG is running out of patience for this sort of thing.


Hee hee... and I'm sure that that the CG won't cut POS-OM any slack when he finds out that he's involved with the W of a deployed warrior and fellow officer!

I sure would like to be a fly on the wall of the CG's office when OM gets his G.O. letter of reprimand!

I take it that OM is a brand new 2LT that's in his basic course, right? If he was prior enlisted, I'll also bet that OM doesn't have his 20 years in yet either... so much for that nice Army retirement with annual COLAs and free medical!!!

His wife sure is going to be ticked off at him when she learns that he's getting booted out of the Army!!!


Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: turtlehead Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
... had to court martial an LT for sleeping with a 14 year old
That made my stomach turn. Ugh, I feel so sick.

Bad timing on OM's part, huh?
The worst time to act up is when Mom and Dad are already in a bad mood.

Sucks to be them!
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 06:02 PM
Originally Posted by RIF
Quote
Apparently the CG is running out of patience for this sort of thing.


Hee hee... and I'm sure that that the CG won't cut POS-OM any slack when he finds out that he's involved with the W of a deployed warrior and fellow officer!

I sure would like to be a fly on the wall of the CG's office when OM gets his G.O. letter of reprimand!

I take it that OM is a brand new 2LT that's in his basic course, right? If he was prior enlisted, I'll also bet that OM doesn't have his 20 years in yet either... so much for that nice Army retirement with annual COLAs and free medical!!!

His wife sure is going to be ticked off at him when she learns that he's getting booted out of the Army!!!


Semper Fi,

RIF

He has about 10 years in. Had just made E7 and went to OCS. Yeah he's in Field Artillery basic course right now. Definitely had been around long enough to know better. Just thought he was smarter than everyone else.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 06:18 PM
Quote
Just thought he was smarter than everyone else.


Well, it sounds like the OM is in a world of hurt now... and he has much more to lose than your W! I'd be willing to bet the CG will throw the book at him since he was a former senior NCO!

This just reinforces my gut feeling that the e-mails from the "OMW" were the OM. He's trying to do anything and everything that he can to try and save his career... if he can get some "dirt" on you, he's hoping that he can use that for his defense.

This is GREAT news for you because it means that the A is almost 100% done with. OM is going to be fighting for his military career and he's going to do whatever it takes, including saying that your W is the one that was 'persuing' him! I see big troubles in fantasy land! Oh, and don't forget about OM's W... she's probably in shock and just as worried about OM's career as he is...

You're in a great place now.... keep focused and be ready to plan-a your W WHEN she contacts you!

Semper Fi,

RIF

Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 06:23 PM
WW shot me an email asking why I had put $100 in her joint account (that she had taken all of her money out of then, and then several days later taken 4 dollars and change out of, as a little angry jab I think.)

I told her because I didn't want the account to get hit with an automatic payment or small charge and get a bunch of overdraft fees.

No response, but it was at the least, a civil exchange in which I looked sensible.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 06:36 PM
Quote
No response, but it was at the least, a civil exchange in which I looked sensible.


Cha-Ching! You've just made a love bank deposit!!!

Yep, she probably won't say anything, but trust me, it WILL have an effect on her....

Keep it up and look for more ways to meet her EN's.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: turtlehead Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 06:44 PM
I swear, Gerka, you are a MB poster child.
Or maybe not. Poster child usually means "feel sorry for me".
You're the new MB mascot!

[Linked Image from myemoticons.com]
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
WW shot me an email asking why I had put $100 in her joint account (that she had taken all of her money out of then, and then several days later taken 4 dollars and change out of, as a little angry jab I think.)

I told her because I didn't want the account to get hit with an automatic payment or small charge and get a bunch of overdraft fees.

No response, but it was at the least, a civil exchange in which I looked sensible.

You are still acting like a responsible married person, and she will recognize that. She cleaned out the joint accounts to get back at you, and instead of you yelling at her about it, you just transfered more money so you wouldn't trigger an automatic fee that would put your account in the red. "But why would he do this?" she'll ask herself, and it will cause turmoil inside of her for acting so petty while you continue to act kind and responsible. "I thought he hated me and was trying to destroy me?" Well things like this will show her you aren't playing games and still want to work on the marriage.

She's looking for a response. She cleaned out the checking account, and you didn't yell at her, you just put in more money. This confused her. Now she writes an email to try and provoke you again. You didn't take the bait.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 06:52 PM
Gerka,

You said
Quote
I feel like I want to hold her and tell her it'll all be ok. But I guess that just makes me a sucker.
Yeah it does. But you the kind of "sucker" that deserves to be married to a good woman. Your the kind of "sucker" that "gets" what marriage is all about. In short, if being in love with your spouse is being a "sucker", the all of us would do well to be "suckers". I'm proud of you for feeling the way you do.

BUT, what really makes me proud of you, is that you have:

1. Stood up for your marriage.
2. You have informed her CoC and OM�s CoC about the affair.
3. You have acted with compassion and with resolution to protect your marriage.
4. You have not backed down from doing the hard stuff like exposing.
5. You have been willing to face her wrath when the consequences of HER actions hit.

Gerka, you have done a lot of things that you should be proud of.

As for her issues when she loses her career, IF that actually happens. They are her consequences and whether you decide you want to continue in this marriage (I think you will get that choice by the way) or you decide to leave it, she will remember for the rest of her life what happens when she allowed her poor choices to tarnish her honor.

If there is any group of people that should and most often do understand honor, commitment, and integrity it those of you in the military. Frankly neither she or OM should be in the military until and unless they see how dishonorable their actions have been.

Hang in there Gerka, you are doing very well.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: coachswife Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 06:54 PM
You are doing so well!!!! Proud for you!
Posted By: Vittoria Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 06:55 PM
Originally Posted by turtlehead
I swear, Gerka, you are a MB poster child.
Or maybe not. Poster child usually means "feel sorry for me".
You're the new MB mascot!

[Linked Image from myemoticons.com]
I agree!
You are doing great.

Originally Posted by G
I told her because I didn't want the account to get hit with an automatic payment or small charge and get a bunch of overdraft fees.

No response, but it was at the least, a civil exchange in which I looked sensible.
Good rational answer, no room for a pissin' contest and no LBing.
Don't give WW reason to justify in her head that her A was 'the only answer to her horrid life' dramaqueen
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 07:05 PM
I agree w/ Jim, she's trying to make sense of everything. How can you be trying to destroy her AND act responsibly and respectfully to her?

Lots of confusion and turmoil going on inside her head right now.

Posted By: princessmeggy Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 07:52 PM
Yup, just picture her head spinning round and round.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/22/10 08:27 PM
Originally Posted by princessmeggy
Yup, just picture her head spinning round and round.

[Linked Image from 2.bp.blogspot.com]
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 03:41 AM
Good Morning Gurka!

We're getting some rain here today.... so everything is a muddy mess...

How are you doing this morning? Any more e-mails from your W?

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 06:06 AM
Nope, never heard back after I explained why I put the money in her account. I don't imagine she's even close to being as angry as she's going to get though, it's only been 4 days since "exposure."
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 07:04 AM
Hey Gurka - I suspect that you're right... it will take a while for the investigation to run it's course, and the Cdr won't say a word until the investigation is complete and he has a recommendation from the investigating officer.

I'm pretty sure that both Cdr's have already issued a no contact order... do you still have access to your W's cell phone records? If you find any contact, then I'd send it to the Cdr's as proof of continued contact in violation of Art. 92.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 07:16 AM
Wife has a secret cell phone that she's been using to communicate since I confronted her. I don't have access to those records. But I did inform the command's about it, and gave them the number for it. Can they obtain the records in the course of their investigation?

Also, "I'll never speak to you again" didn't last very long, as it turns out.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 09:40 AM
Quote
Also, "I'll never speak to you again" didn't last very long, as it turns out.


She's doing a pretty good job of following the WS script...


I believe that the investigating officer can request phone records if they used a government phone or a government computer. Not sure if it's a personal phone or PC... might want to ask JAG about this.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 09:43 AM
There's no JAG here. I figure when I get the divorce papers in the mail I'll take a ride to Camp Phoenix and talk to the SJA about them, and some other questions I have.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 09:57 AM
I've been thinking, how the heck is she going to explain to the Army why she's filed for divorce now, while I'm deployed overseas. What are the benefits of filing for divorce against my will now, compared with any other time, contrasted with the detraction from my focus on the mission and my combat effectiveness?

These are the kinds of things an Army officer should consider. I don't know how she can answer these questions.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 10:03 AM
Sounds like a great plan! Until then, I would't worry too much about those divorce papers (even if she DID send them)...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 10:11 AM
I want compensation from you people if this plan doesn't work, by the way. :P

Also, she did order the MB books during her 3 days of "clarity." I've never known her not to read a book (she has hundreds.) Hopefully if MB got through to her once, it'll get through to her again.
Posted By: saynomore Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 10:48 AM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
I want compensation from you people if this plan doesn't work, by the way. :P

Ummmm, you didn't read the disclaimer? smirk

God's Blessings,

Say
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 11:48 AM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
Wife has a secret cell phone that she's been using to communicate since I confronted her. I don't have access to those records. But I did inform the command's about it, and gave them the number for it. Can they obtain the records in the course of their investigation?

Also, "I'll never speak to you again" didn't last very long, as it turns out.

Do you think you could do some sleuthing and get access to those records? Who do you think is the carrier for the phone? If she's in a remote area, there usually aren't many available. You know her information. I'm sure you could set up an online account to view or reset her password with what you know. However, it will usually send a text whenever you set up something online or reset a password.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 11:53 AM
Originally Posted by jmwc95
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
Wife has a secret cell phone that she's been using to communicate since I confronted her. I don't have access to those records. But I did inform the command's about it, and gave them the number for it. Can they obtain the records in the course of their investigation?

Also, "I'll never speak to you again" didn't last very long, as it turns out.

Do you think you could do some sleuthing and get access to those records? Who do you think is the carrier for the phone? If she's in a remote area, there usually aren't many available. You know her information. I'm sure you could set up an online account to view or reset her password with what you know. However, it will usually send a text whenever you set up something online or reset a password.

Yes, I know it's an AT&T phone, and she hasn't even set it up for online account access yet. If I set that up, it would send a text message to her phone. That would likely be illegal, and it seems, unethical.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 12:07 PM
Hey Gurka!

This plan will work! No matter how this turns out, YOU will be a much better person for having walked this path...

As for the MB books and such, I would NOT bring them up at all for now. There will be a time for that, and if you bring them up now, she will most likely believe that you are trying to educate her (which is a Disrespectful Judgement).

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 12:38 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
Originally Posted by jmwc95
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
Wife has a secret cell phone that she's been using to communicate since I confronted her. I don't have access to those records. But I did inform the command's about it, and gave them the number for it. Can they obtain the records in the course of their investigation?

Also, "I'll never speak to you again" didn't last very long, as it turns out.

Do you think you could do some sleuthing and get access to those records? Who do you think is the carrier for the phone? If she's in a remote area, there usually aren't many available. You know her information. I'm sure you could set up an online account to view or reset her password with what you know. However, it will usually send a text whenever you set up something online or reset a password.

Yes, I know it's an AT&T phone, and she hasn't even set it up for online account access yet. If I set that up, it would send a text message to her phone. That would likely be illegal, and it seems, unethical.

It may be illegal (and it may not be, since you are married), but it is certainly NOT unethical. If I were you and I got home, the first thing I would do when I was in her presence would be to find her affair phone, set up the online account to monitor, and quickly delete the text message. But that's just me. I was monitoring my WW's bank and credit card accounts and after I found the first calling card she purchased to talk to OM from a pay phone so she thought I couldn't track her, she bought another one and threw it away immediately after using it. I still found out because I was checking her purchases and noticed it. I think she gave up trying to get around me at that point. In any mission intelligence is the key.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 12:45 PM
Originally Posted by jmwc95
It may be illegal (and it may not be, since you are married), but it is certainly NOT unethical. If I were you and I got home, the first thing I would do when I was in her presence would be to find her affair phone, set up the online account to monitor, and quickly delete the text message. But that's just me. I was monitoring my WW's bank and credit card accounts and after I found the first calling card she purchased to talk to OM from a pay phone so she thought I couldn't track her, she bought another one and threw it away immediately after using it. I still found out because I was checking her purchases and noticed it. I think she gave up trying to get around me at that point. In any mission intelligence is the key.

You do realize that my home (at fort polk) is not her home (at fort huachuca) right? As in, if she doesn't have a dramatic change of heart in the next 3 months, I may never see her again, or may only see her in a court room\law office.
Posted By: barbiecat Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 12:46 PM
Originally Posted by saynomore
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
I want compensation from you people if this plan doesn't work, by the way. :P

Ummmm, you didn't read the disclaimer? smirk

God's Blessings,

Say
We're not doctors....nor do we play one on TV....
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 12:46 PM
Originally Posted by RIF
Hey Gurka!

This plan will work! No matter how this turns out, YOU will be a much better person for having walked this path...

As for the MB books and such, I would NOT bring them up at all for now. There will be a time for that, and if you bring them up now, she will most likely believe that you are trying to educate her (which is a Disrespectful Judgement).

Semper Fi,

RIF

I'm not bringing anything up for now. Like I said I'm waiting for her to say something to me. I feel like anything I would say right now would be wasted since she's probably very angry.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 12:55 PM
This is the last email she sent me, 3 days ago. Aside from the one last night asking me why I put money in her account. You guys say this is normal WW behavior?



Quote
I guess you are just ignoring me now. So much for you 'love' me, and not threatening me and all that.

I have filed for divorce, the papers are in the mail. You will have to sign a waiver for anything to go forward. This is happening--certainly now that you are forcing my hand, so you have two options. You can sign now, or you can be served by law enforcement once you are back in country. Either way, I will not see you again, at this point, you are scaring me. Don't come to Arizona. I am moving apartments, so you won't be able to see me anyway.

Due to the fact that we haven't lived together since the first couple months of marriage, nothing that we really have is considered shared property, not the car or anything, so there is pretty much nothing you can fight me with. And, just so you know, I can change my mind about things too--I want my dog. Go ahead and have your parents hide him, that would be very illegal at this point.

It would have been nice to work this out like civilized people, but now I guess this is war.
Posted By: believer Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 01:28 PM
She's trying to get a rise out of you. Continue your plan.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 01:29 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
This is the last email she sent me, 3 days ago. Aside from the one last night asking me why I put money in her account. You guys say this is normal WW behavior?



Quote
I guess you are just ignoring me now. So much for you 'love' me, and not threatening me and all that.

I have filed for divorce, the papers are in the mail. You will have to sign a waiver for anything to go forward. This is happening--certainly now that you are forcing my hand, so you have two options. You can sign now, or you can be served by law enforcement once you are back in country. Either way, I will not see you again, at this point, you are scaring me. Don't come to Arizona. I am moving apartments, so you won't be able to see me anyway.

Due to the fact that we haven't lived together since the first couple months of marriage, nothing that we really have is considered shared property, not the car or anything, so there is pretty much nothing you can fight me with. And, just so you know, I can change my mind about things too--I want my dog. Go ahead and have your parents hide him, that would be very illegal at this point.

It would have been nice to work this out like civilized people, but now I guess this is war.

Yes, it is typical. Don't read anything too much into it.

Except, since she mentioned you are ignoring her, I would maybe try to reach out to her a little bit. She's a very insecure person and I think she's afraid that YOU don't want anything to do with HER anymore. Let her gently know that is not the case. Just say something like, "I'm not ignoring you, I just though you wouldn't want to talk to me. I very much would like to hear from you. How are you doing?" Then just let her completely go off on you without you responding. You don't want to completely ignore her, you just want to ignore her provocations. At this point I would slowly, subtly try and engage her and get her to talk to you. If she keeps pressing you about divorce, all you say is, "You know where I stand on that," and let it go. This is where you need to start doing the subtle dance of trying to engage her about anything other than your relationship.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 01:31 PM
Quote
It would have been nice to work this out like civilized people, but now I guess this is war.


I guess in her mind, 'civilized' people can mess around on each other and expect everything to OK... anything that upsets their world is 'uncivilized'...

She is right, this IS war... you are in a WAR for your M. And you are doing the right things here to give you the best chance possible to rebuild. She may not want to come back, but at least you can say that you did everything possible to try and save it... and you will come out of this with your head head held high.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 01:33 PM
You don't think it's too soon for that?

Edit: That is, too early to send an email saying: "I'm not ignoring you, and I do still care about you. I'm always here to listen. How are you doing?"
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 01:44 PM
That email is one of several that will follow where she's upset that you're not playing ball with her idealistic and unrealistic expectations of what a "civil" divorce is supposed to be like.

There's no such thing.

I encourage you to not look too much into little transactions between you two as far as things like the bank deposit stuff.

I had moments of civility with my WW and even words of reassurance that things would be ok.

Don't believe any of it.

The best ally you have is one of no expectations. Plan for the worst, hope for the best. Some might say that depositing money in the account to protect your assets is a love bank deposit to her. I'll tell you the reality. She feels she's entitled to whatever you do for her. That's what you're supposed to do. She sees things from a selfish perspective and it likely has nothing to do with her being wayward. She likely views things this way all the time. Her perspective on relationships is that you are there for her and not that it is a partnership.

A WW looking for an out will do whatever is necessary to get you to comply with her plans. The nasty approach will be switched from time to time with the nice approach and all of it will mess with your head.

Expect nothing. Supsect everything. Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see when you when dealing with her.

A lot of people are going to blow sunshine up your butt and tell you that there is hope for your marriage. In my years of posting on here, I've seen many more marriages fail than succeed. There are a few who can do it, but the vast majority that I've witnessed end up divorced.

Sorry to be Debbie Downer, but I'm just trying to be real with you. Are you doing great? Yes, from the standpoint that you're doing all the things you should do regardless of the end result. You're leaps ahead of many BHs here who are paralyzed with fear. I was one of them.

For that I applaud you.

But the bottom line is that you need to expect the worst and hope for the best.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 01:58 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
You don't think it's too soon for that?

Edit: That is, too early to send an email saying: "I'm not ignoring you, and I do still care about you. I'm always here to listen. How are you doing?"

You know what, it is probably too soon to send the email containing the words, I'm not ignoring you. Instead, just write her something sharing about how your day went or something else. It's email, she doesn't have to read it. However, it indirectly lets her know you aren't ignoring her. Is there a funny story of something that happened today? Just something lighthearted, relationship-free, and hopefully it can somewhat meet the EN of conversation.

Back when I exposed, 90% of the time the first two weeks she was just awful and wanted nothing to do with me, but the other 10% we did talk about stupid stuff. Mostly about TV shows (like Idol or Real World or something I could normally care less about, but I knew would interest her) or gossip. Even when she was totally pissed at me, there were a few things she would talk about. I would search online for gossip and forward something juicy on to her. If she read it, great, she'd probably talk to me about it. If not, no big deal. Or she would want to complain about her job, and I'd just intently listen. This is the time when you need to use the creative part of your brain to find ways to get around the wall and meet her ENs. She's got a wall up. You need to find the weak spot in that wall.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 02:09 PM
Quote
You don't think it's too soon for that?

Edit: That is, too early to send an email saying: "I'm not ignoring you, and I do still care about you. I'm always here to listen. How are you doing?"


I think Jim has a good point regarding contacting her... and HTLD has a very good point about not expecting anything.

The last thing that you want to do is to appear "clingy" or "needy" to her. As long as you can keep your reply along the same lines as "I love you and I'm willing to do whatever it takes to save our M." ...then I agree that it might be a good idea to respond to her last e-mail.

I would NOT send her an e-mail out of the blue telling her how much you love her... only reply to the one that she sent you.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 02:12 PM
Originally Posted by helpthelostdads
A lot of people are going to blow sunshine up your butt and tell you that there is hope for your marriage. In my years of posting on here, I've seen many more marriages fail than succeed. There are a few who can do it, but the vast majority that I've witnessed end up divorced.

Most of those that fail are because NC is never established between the affair partners. Considering his WW and OM are both military officers and the OM has a wife and kids, there is a much better chance at NC than most have here on the board. There are plenty of recovered relationships including myself.

Let's put it this way, I have rarely seen a woman divorce her husband after the affair is over, provided the woman doesn't start up another affair. Most women want somewhere to land before they divorce, and absent of that, they rarely do. Of course, this does not take into account abuse or their husband cheating, but that is not the case here. Just two weeks ago, his WW was still talking to him like they were going to be together once he got back, so she was still planning on that as long as Gerka did not interfere with her affair.

Sure, Gerka should expect nothing right now, but I don't want him to be hopeless either.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 02:24 PM
Quote
There are a few who can do it, but the vast majority that I've witnessed end up divorced.


IMO, Gerk has what it takes to get it done.

The A will end in his case, he will go home and I believe get another chance w/ his W.

He has the tools to create a better M thanks to MB and he has the inner strength and self confidence to make it all come together.

Posted By: turtlehead Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 02:38 PM
I do think you should send her a light email. I wouldn't say "I'm not ignoring you" because she'll just use that to pick a fight. I also wouldn't tell her you love her, because that would just make her angry.

I very much like the idea of a short email mentioning something funny that happened or something you saw that you just wanted to share with her.

She'll probably ignore it or send you a scathing reply, but that's okay. You'll have taken away her ability to say "He's ignoring me" to herself.

Continue to send a fun, short email every few days.

What are her top ENs? I'm guessing conversation is one. What are her others?
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 02:43 PM
Ok, I've come up with:
"I do still care about you and how you're doing. I'm always here to listen whenever you have something to say.

I had a pretty good day off today, slept in until nearly 11, went to lunch (had a cheeseburger and a pile of tomatoes wink ) watched the Simpsons for a while and hit the gym for an ab work out. Then steak, lobster & grilled asparagus for dinner. "

GO or NO GO on that email? She LOVES tomatoes, that's why I mentioned it.


Affection, conversation, honest & openness are her top 3 ENs.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 02:44 PM
I agree w/ the others about sending a light/fun e-mail.

Your W told you how much pursuing her meant to her when you didn't insist she come to you so you could say good-bye to her.

Now she told you she didn't want you to ignore her.

Listen to her!

But, definitely keep it light.

Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 02:52 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
Ok, I've come up with:
"I do still care about you and how you're doing. I'm always here to listen whenever you have something to say.

I had a pretty good day off today, slept in until nearly 11, went to lunch (had a cheeseburger and a pile of tomatoes wink ) watched the Simpsons for a while and hit the gym for an ab work out. Then steak, lobster & grilled asparagus for dinner. "

GO or NO GO on that email? She LOVES tomatoes, that's why I mentioned it.


Affection, conversation, honest & openness are her top 3 ENs.

That's fine. I would send out these emails about once every other day. Maybe (probably) she'll eventually send one back about how she's doing.

Man, they are feeding you well over there. Steak AND lobster? Sign me up.
Posted By: turtlehead Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 02:53 PM
Steak, lobster, and grilled asparagus?
Is life that rough over there or are you pulling our collective leg?

GO on the email wink
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 02:55 PM
Shot out on the email. We'll see if I get anything back.

Yeah Fridays is steak & either lobster or crab legs with grilled asparagus. It's not particularly good steak, but the seafood is usually pretty decent. It's enough to make people look forward to it anyway.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 02:58 PM
Quote
I do still care about you and how you're doing. I'm always here to listen whenever you have something to say.

I had a pretty good day off today, slept in until nearly 11, went to lunch (had a cheeseburger and a pile of tomatoes wink ) watched the Simpsons for a while and hit the gym for an ab work out. Then steak, lobster & grilled asparagus for dinner.

Just so you are prepared, here will be her response:

"If you cared about me you would have never betrayed me by telling my CO. I'm never telling you anything again. You'll just use it against me. I hope you choked on your steak and lobster. Just sign the divorce papers I sent you."

Again, this will be better than no response at all, and even if she doesn't respond to this one, she eventually will.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 03:00 PM
Good job, Gerk!
Posted By: markos Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 03:46 PM
Originally Posted by jmwc95
Except, since she mentioned you are ignoring her, I would maybe try to reach out to her a little bit. She's a very insecure person and I think she's afraid that YOU don't want anything to do with HER anymore. Let her gently know that is not the case. Just say something like, "I'm not ignoring you, I just though you wouldn't want to talk to me. I very much would like to hear from you. How are you doing?" Then just let her completely go off on you without you responding. You don't want to completely ignore her, you just want to ignore her provocations. At this point I would slowly, subtly try and engage her and get her to talk to you.

I strongly, strongly agree.
Posted By: markos Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 03:47 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
You don't think it's too soon for that?

Edit: That is, too early to send an email saying: "I'm not ignoring you, and I do still care about you. I'm always here to listen. How are you doing?"

Actually, I think it should have been done sooner. Whenever I get an email from my wife saying she's feeling lonely or ignored, I try to respond ASAP.

I think I might even include an apology for not replying earlier.

"Sorry, I was just so taken aback that you thought I was ignoring you that I wasn't sure what to say. I'm definitely not ignoring you, and ..." and then use those other suggestions.
Posted By: markos Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 03:49 PM
Originally Posted by helpthelostdads
A lot of people are going to blow sunshine up your butt and tell you that there is hope for your marriage.

A lot of those people are people who have worked right through this.

Quote
In my years of posting on here

Can you give us other IDs you've posted under so we can read your story? It appears you've been posting four five months.
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 03:50 PM
I'm sorry to be the Debbie Downer of this thread, but everything Gerk has posted about his marriage and his wife indicates that this is a woman that has big issues that aren't going to change once NC is established.

If OM disappears forever, you're still left with a woman that has massive, unresolved psych issues, huge self esteem problems, a craving for male attention, immaturity, unrealistic expectations of marriage, a broken career, and then the sloppy seconds of another man.

Gerk, I hope for a miracle, but the odds are high that you will end up divorced, but that such an outcome may ultimately the best thing that could possibly happen to you.

I could be wrong and she could suddenly see the light, go to NC, start deep therapy, and grow up massively, but that is highly unlikely.

She might be marriage material in 10 years or so, once she's been burned a few times.

You have much life to live in the meantime.

I know you wish to save your marriage and I respect that. Keep doing the thigns you're being advised to do. Just keep your expectations very low.

Understand that I'm not rooting for failure or am saying, "Rah! Rah! Divorce!"

This situation sucks to go through, especially when deployed, but getting rid of this broken woman and finding someone deserving of your love and attention once you've healed could be the greatest thing that could happen to you.

Seriously, it would be great to see a miracle, but women with your WW's personality seldom grow up and develop maturity unless they hit rock bottom first. She strikes me as one of those women that are so needy that they must have a man in their life, regardless of who it is, in order for them to feel happy.

Women that needy have massive issues.
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 03:54 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Can you give us other IDs you've posted under so we can read your story? It appears you've been posting four five months.

Nope. Wish I could, but I can't.

Those who know my writing style, know who I am some some I speak to offline know who I was. Circumstances don't let me say more.
Posted By: markos Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 03:57 PM
Originally Posted by Marshmallow
Your W told you how much pursuing her meant to her when you didn't insist she come to you so you could say good-bye to her.

Now she told you she didn't want you to ignore her.

Bingo.

And let me make an observation: you have the kind of wife who, for now, is going to require you to figure out what she wants yourself and do that. Your job is to know more about her emotional needs than she does. When you get statements like these, count yourself lucky, and act on them! (But don't act without thinking. wink )
Posted By: markos Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 03:58 PM
Originally Posted by helpthelostdads
Originally Posted by markos
Can you give us other IDs you've posted under so we can read your story? It appears you've been posting four five months.

Nope. Wish I could, but I can't.

Those who know my writing style, know who I am some some I speak to offline know who I was. Circumstances don't let me say more.

Understood.

Originally Posted by helpthelostdads
I'm sorry to be the Debbie Downer of this thread, but everything Gerk has posted about his marriage and his wife indicates that this is a woman that has big issues that aren't going to change once NC is established.

I don't think you know jack about it, and if you continue to try to discourage someone who is doing so wonderfully, my plan is to report you to the moderators.

Work out your own issues and demons without troubling others.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 04:02 PM
Originally Posted by helpthelostdads
I'm sorry to be the Debbie Downer of this thread, but everything Gerk has posted about his marriage and his wife indicates that this is a woman that has big issues that aren't going to change once NC is established.

If OM disappears forever, you're still left with a woman that has massive, unresolved psych issues, huge self esteem problems, a craving for male attention, immaturity, unrealistic expectations of marriage, a broken career, and then the sloppy seconds of another man.

Gerk, I hope for a miracle, but the odds are high that you will end up divorced, but that such an outcome may ultimately the best thing that could possibly happen to you.

I could be wrong and she could suddenly see the light, go to NC, start deep therapy, and grow up massively, but that is highly unlikely.

She might be marriage material in 10 years or so, once she's been burned a few times.

You have much life to live in the meantime.

I know you wish to save your marriage and I respect that. Keep doing the thigns you're being advised to do. Just keep your expectations very low.

Understand that I'm not rooting for failure or am saying, "Rah! Rah! Divorce!"

This situation sucks to go through, especially when deployed, but getting rid of this broken woman and finding someone deserving of your love and attention once you've healed could be the greatest thing that could happen to you.

Seriously, it would be great to see a miracle, but women with your WW's personality seldom grow up and develop maturity unless they hit rock bottom first. She strikes me as one of those women that are so needy that they must have a man in their life, regardless of who it is, in order for them to feel happy.

Women that needy have massive issues.

Gerka heard you. We don't need to keep dwelling on this any longer. He's made his decision. We all know your thoughts on the matter. Let's focus on helping Gerka work his plan instead of telling him it won't work. He very well may come to that conclusion on his own in the future, but it needs to be him that comes to that conclusion, not you. Working a good plan A isn't hurting anyone at this moment. Trust me, I understand where you are coming from, and I share a lot of the same sentiment, but it is not up to us to decide whether or not his marriage is worth saving. Only he knows his WW and his relationship. Gerka has shown a lot of strength and maturity beyond his years, so I'm going to trust he knows what he is doing on this one.
Posted By: markos Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 04:04 PM
Originally Posted by helpthelostdads
If OM disappears forever, you're still left with a woman that has massive, unresolved psych issues, huge self esteem problems, a craving for male attention, immaturity, unrealistic expectations of marriage, a broken career, and then the sloppy seconds of another man.

A reminder of what Marriage Builders actually says about these issues, since it is different from what helpthelostdads seems to be saying:

Quote
Now for your second question: Is it possible for a damaged person to be a good wife?

My experience, having counseled hundreds who have experienced childhood abuse, has led me to the conclusion that childhood abuse does not damage a person. While it's a hotly debatable position, it's what I strongly believe.

So I begin my answer with the assumption that the experiences of your childhood are far less likely to affect your ability to meet your husband's needs (or have him meet yours) than you suspect. Any sensitivities you have developed as a result of abuse have not "ruined" you because they can be accommodated by your future husband. It's all part of learning how to be emotionally connected to someone else. My Policy of Joint Agreement is a terrific learning aid in helping couples adjust to all sorts of sensitivities.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5019_qa.html

Quote
An analysis of the wayward spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2356918#Post2356918

A couple of other related articles:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8115_prob.html
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5013_qa.html

A reminder, from the top of this page:
Quote
Sometimes you may hear alternative opinions that conflict with Dr. Harley's Ten Basic Concepts. These are often raised by those who have not solved their own marital problems, but still feel they are qualified to advise others. When this happens you can expect some members to explain why their approach won't work, and why Marriage Builders� offers a better solution. There are many who are offended when that happens, but please keep in mind that the ultimate purpose of this Forum is to discuss and learn Marriage Builders� concepts.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 04:05 PM
Originally Posted by helpthelostdads
Originally Posted by markos
Can you give us other IDs you've posted under so we can read your story? It appears you've been posting four five months.

Nope. Wish I could, but I can't.

Those who know my writing style, know who I am some some I speak to offline know who I was. Circumstances don't let me say more.

I'm pretty sure I know who he is. His WW was worse than most.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 04:10 PM
Quote
...but getting rid of this broken woman and finding someone deserving of your love and attention once you've healed could be the greatest thing that could happen to you.


I'm glad that I didn't "get rid" of Mrs. RIF... she was about as broken as they come... had MULTIPLE affairs... you name an issue, and Mrs. RIF probably had it.

The "greatest thing" that's happened to me is that God healed and is rebuilding my marriage with Mrs. RIF.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 04:14 PM
I set up the cell phone I got my wife at Christmas to get her email through exchange push, so she receives emails instantly. Still haven't heard anything, I have no idea what she's doing since her last "job" ended on the 20th.

To be honest my WW does tend towards selfishness and self-centeredness. Her big problem at OCS was that she wasn't making any friends, and it was really bothering her, she was calling me crying about no one liking her, she said because she was doing so much better than them. I told her to try to talk about herself less with other people, and ask about them, because she tends to domineer conversations and steer them that way, which turns people off. This turned into, "Great, I tell you what a hard time I'm having and you tell me I'm a jerk!" She was in a vulnerable position to be befriended by OM.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 04:19 PM
Quote
I set up the cell phone I got my wife at Christmas to get her email through exchange push, so she receives emails instantly. Still haven't heard anything, I have no idea what she's doing since her last "job" ended on the 20th.

To be honest my WW does tend towards selfishness and self-centeredness. Her big problem at OCS was that she wasn't making any friends, and it was really bothering her, she was calling me crying about no one liking her, she said because she was doing so much better than them. I told her to try to talk about herself less with other people, and ask about them, because she tends to domineer conversations and steer them that way, which turns people off. This turned into, "Great, I tell you what a hard time I'm having and you tell me I'm a jerk!" She was in a vulnerable position to be befriended by OM.


She just wanted you to LISTEN to her. Sympathize w/ her. Not solve her problems.

Your W is young. She has ALOT to learn. Most 25 year olds ARE immature! She will grow and change.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 04:21 PM
You know what's really depressing? Talking to people she went to OCS with and having them tell me, "yeah, she gave off a bad vibe for a married woman, I stayed far away from her. There were rumors of her with XXXXXXX and XXXXXX...."
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 04:28 PM
Hey Gurka,

Ditto what Marshmallow said...

Took me a while to learn that when Mrs. RIF wanted to talk about a problem, that she just needed for me to listen.

I'm an engineer, so I like to "fix" things! Well, I've learned that Mrs. RIF will let me know if she wants me to solve something for her... otherwise, I know that my job is to just listen to her! loveheart

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 04:29 PM
Markos,

I'm glad you have faith in the system. I think it works with people who stray, as we are all at risk of doing, yet can still be brought back into the fold.

I've been on this board for nearly four years. I have seen many more marriages fail from infidelity than succeed, especially when a WW is involved. Seems like the WHs have a slightly higher chance of coming to their senses, but I have very very rarely seen it in the WW's.

Feel free to report me to the moderators if you wish, but I believe I made it clear that I really hope for a miracle for Gerka. Reality, however, has turned me into the salty dog I've become in regards to infidelity and WW'es.

Stating such, and doing it in a respectful manner, is not forbidden, as far as I know.

It does bother me to see young guys who have no children with WW'es spend months, even years, hanging on to women unworthy of their attention. They're stuck on someone when there are thousands of more deserving women out there. I see this more often in young guys in their twenties who are hung up on romantic notions and are so blinded in their own grief and fog that they can't see the situation for what it is.

A young woman who cheats so soon into a marriage is not worthy of being married to. There's much too much life to live to hang on to such a person, especially where no children are in the picture.

Why settle for sloppy seconds and go through the pain and anguish of recovery with someone like that?

Gerka is choosing to try. I respect that. At the same time, I'm not going to pee on his leg and tell him it's raining when experience on this board has shown me that the odds for him are very low.

I'm giving Gerka the advice I wish I had gotten back when I dealt with my situation.

By all means, expose, end the affair, and then see where you stand. If you end it, do so on your terms. That will give you closure.

If she returns, however, then approach with caution and maker her earn your trust back.

I can tell stories of several guys on these boards that hung on for months, even years, on women who went from OM1 to OM2, 3, 4 etc. All the while, they put their own lives on hold and waited and waited.

This situation puts a real burden on a person's heart. I'm willing to bet Gerk could take his blood pressure and find it abnormally high. Years of that takes it's toll, as I have discovered.

It's also good for Gerka to hear different viewpoints and weigh all his options.

Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 04:33 PM
Quote
You know what's really depressing? Talking to people she went to OCS with and having them tell me, "yeah, she gave off a bad vibe for a married woman, I stayed far away from her. There were rumors of her with XXXXXXX and XXXXXX...."


Hey Gurka,

Yes, it is depressing... if you sit and FOCUS on it.

You already know that your W has acted inapropriately and is involved in an A... you can't change that.

You CAN change your thought patterns... try and focus on the positive things that you are doing now to end the A.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: markos Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 04:45 PM
Originally Posted by helpthelostdads
Stating such, and doing it in a respectful manner, is not forbidden, as far as I know.

Nor is pointing out when what you say contradicts the standard Marriage Builders line, which has worked for many people.

Quote
If she returns, however, then approach with caution and maker her earn your trust back.

That sounds like Marriage Builders to me. Are you worried that someone is telling him differently?

Quote
This situation puts a real burden on a person's heart. I'm willing to bet Gerk could take his blood pressure and find it abnormally high. Years of that takes it's toll, as I have discovered.

I don't think Marriage Builders recommends spending years in this kind of situation. 3-4 weeks for women, 6 months for men, is standard.

Quote
It's also good for Gerka to hear different viewpoints and weigh all his options.

It's also good for him to know when people's viewpoints are not consistent with this program, which has worked for many people.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 04:47 PM
Quote
A young woman who cheats so soon into a marriage is not worthy of being married to.


Mrs. RIF was 18. I was 24.

Quote
Why settle for sloppy seconds and go through the pain and anguish of recovery with someone like that?


This is a very disrespectful comment. So does that mean that I "settled" for sloppy 7ths??? Please, if you wish to make comments like this, please find another forum.

Quote
This situation puts a real burden on a person's heart.


I agree 100%! Mrs. RIF had her first A while I was in my basic course, had 6 more while we were assigned over seas during our first thee years of M. Didn't confess to the othe A's until December 2000. Took us 2.5 years to rebuild. So, lets see.... what was that, about 15 years of a burdened/broken heart.

For me, I have no regrets.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Pepperband Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 04:53 PM
Originally Posted by helpthelostdads
I've been on this board for nearly four years.

From the rules of conduct:
Quote
You agree not to create multiple usernames for deceptive purposes.
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 05:05 PM
Quote
Why settle for sloppy seconds and go through the pain and anguish of recovery with someone like that?


This comment is VERY disrespectful and offensive to ALL of the BSes here who have recovered their marriages. Wish there was a "boo-hiss" emoticon right about now.

I don't think Dr. H would refer to our FWS as "sloppy seconds".
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 05:06 PM
RIF,

I'm glad things worked out for you. Your FWW's age says a lot. Most of us, men or women, don't have much maturity at that age and I think we're even more at risk for failing in marriage when so young.

My expectations for a woman in her mid-20s who is supposed to be an officer and know better are much higher than for an 18 year old of any background or gender.

I'm glad you made it work. I hope Gerka can do the same. But nothing he's posted so far tells me that this is a woman that is going to be changing much or growing up anytime soon.

Did you settle for sloppy seconds? That's a question only you can answer. You felt it was ok to be with a woman that was with 7 different guys while married to you. I was willing to forgive a woman who was on dates with multiple guys as well. It was a price I was willing to pay in order to keep my family intact.

I know me, however, and I know that the amount of cheating, especially while I was deployed and in harms way, would have eaten at me over the years. It would have been a mountain for me to climb in my mind. Could I have done it? Hard to say.

I feel indifference towards my ex now, but I'm not married to her anymore and am very glad I'm not.

Gerka, friends provide invaluable input. What do people who know both of you tell you? What does your family think?
Posted By: Prisca Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 05:12 PM
Quote
I'm glad things worked out for you. Your FWW's age says a lot. Most of us, men or women, don't have much maturity at that age and I think we're even more at risk for failing in marriage when so young.
Age and maturity has less to do with it than an empty Love Bank.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 05:20 PM
My family is disappointed but forgiving. They've always loved her.

Her family won't speak to me. I don't know what she told them, but apparently her mother is concerned for her safety. That coupled with the "you're scaring me, I don't want to see you" have me baffled. I've never in my life physically threatened her, even during all of these recent events.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 05:30 PM
Hey Gurka,

The "safety" thing and "you're scaring me" are most likely natural protective actions by her family... now you're W's motivation is probably more in line with trying to protect her A activities.

I wouldn't worry too much about these comments other than being careful about what you say to her. As for her family, I wouldn't worry about them for now... your focus is on your M, not your relationship with your in-laws.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: markos Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 05:36 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
Her family won't speak to me. I don't know what she told them, but apparently her mother is concerned for her safety. That coupled with the "you're scaring me, I don't want to see you" have me baffled. I've never in my life physically threatened her, even during all of these recent events.

Nobody expects a person in your situation to do what you are doing, such as exposing the affair. It's to the point that many people will think you are unhinged or unbalanced because you are doing it. Therefore you are a "danger." If you did something so "crazy" as to expose the adultery, then you might do something "crazy" like get violent, or so the reasoning goes.
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 05:38 PM
No disrespect was intended. That's how I know I would have felt over time towards my WW and it is a feeling many BS's wrestle with. The sentiment may not be expressed in such words, but it's there.

The mods know who I am, my story, and my circumstance.

I'm not going to sugarcoat the situation for BS'es on here. Yes, MB is a great plan to use if you do finally get to the point that you can try to head down the road to recovery. But my experience on this board tells me it's the exception and not the rule.

If you saved your marriage, then congrats. You're one of the lucky few. I haven't seen it happen often on these boards.

Gerka, I'm not going to sugarcoat anything. The reality is what it is. You have a young wife who has cheated on you from the very beginning. By your own admission, she has MASSIVE self esteem issues. She is very insecure and a very high maintenance woman. Your fellow OCS classmates have told you that she wasn't marriage material.

If you feel like rescuing this marriage with those circumstances, then you have that right. I'm merely telling you that there is an alternative which you can puruse since you deserve better than to settle for this.

Children with this woman would be a disaster. The odds of her cheating again are very high.

So do you really want to be going through all of this again in the future, but then have to wrestle with the impact of divorce on a five year old child?

Your wife needs to do a lot more than end the affair and come back to you. Massive therapy is called for to help her deal with her self esteem issues and childhood abuse.

You can't fix that. You can only work on you and nothing more. I had to learn that the hard way. I tried going down your road. I had a fiance who was bipolar. I had a wife with childhood abuse issues and who also had big self esteem problems.

I have a history of being attracted to damsels in distress and a desire to show them how good they could be or should be treated. My first ex fiance is on her fourth marriage and has cheated on every one of her husbands. My exww still has big psych issues and I'm very glad she's someone else's problem now.

I'm very happy I no longer have her in my life. She would have sucked out my soul and destroyed me as a man because all these years later she hasn't changed. She has a great guy in her life right now and all the people I know who know them feel sorry for him and don't understand why he lets himself be used by her.

I'm happy I'm not that man anymore. What I'm saying to you is that the cross you have to bear with this woman is MASSIVE. This isn't a normal woman that got sucked into an affair she didn't expect because of a lack of maturity. There is much more at play with her than a lack of maturity or poor boundaries.

She has big time psych issues which will take years to resolve.

I'm all for trying to save your marriage after infidelity, but there's a difference between saving a marriage with someone who can change or who strayed from her values and doing so with someone who is fundamentally broken inside and needs massive help to get to a healthy place.

I'm giving you things to chew on as a man who has been in your shoes in very similar circumstances. RIF was as well. He was able to save things and make it work. I didn't. Both inputs are valid for their own reasons and both situations are worth digesting and thinking about.

My ultimate point to you is that you deserve better. You have no children and have a biblically acceptable reason to divorce. Given your age and what you have to offer someone, I don't think anyone could blame you or look down on you for walking away from this marriage.

You deserve much more than this. If your wife has a miraculous transformation, then great. I just haven't seen it happen often.
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 05:43 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
Her family won't speak to me. I don't know what she told them, but apparently her mother is concerned for her safety. That coupled with the "you're scaring me, I don't want to see you" have me baffled.

Expect her family to stick by her. Again, I'm not going to sugarcoat anything. You wouldn't be the first man on this board to have false charges of abuse dropped on him. You don't have to look far on here to find men who are stuck with restraining orders or false accusations. PSUB is one example. I had similar allegations against me.

Document everything. Say nothing that can be interpretted as threatening. Be calm at all times. Express your concerns about false allegations to your chain of command.

You have a career to protect as well.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 06:21 PM
Quote
but there's a difference between saving a marriage with someone who can change or who strayed from her values and doing so with someone who is fundamentally broken inside and needs massive help to get to a healthy place.


Please excuse the TJ Gurka...

Hi HTLD,

I respect your input here and yes, it is important for Gurka to understand the "other" options open to him. Having said that, Gurka has decided to work on saving his M. I respect that just as I would respect his decision to divorce his wife and walk away.

I took my marriage vows seriously. For Better or Worse is so easy to say, but what does it really mean?

For me, it meant that even though my wife was "fundamentally broken inside" and "needed massive help to get to a healthy place", that I my vow to her was to just that. This was definitely a "worse" time in our very young marriage.

I don't look down on anyone that decided to not work through their WS's adultery and divorce, and I'm not saying that anyone that divorces doesn't take their vows just as seriously as I do... I'm just trying to point out the fact that we should respect Gurka's desicion to work on his M and offer him positive ways to do so. Continued statements of how "bad" is situation is aren't helping him.

As for "success" stories here, there are many. I've been on here since 2002 and there are MANY recovered marriages. You don't see many of them because at some point, they have rebuilt their marriage and no longer need or want to post here.

I normally don't post here unless I'm deployed. Mrs. RIF and I are blessed and we continue to work on our M, even while I'm over here. I post here in order to help others that are hurting and to offer proof that it IS possible to rebuild...

I will be the first one to tell a new member that this will be THE hardest thing that they will ever take on... and I will let them know that there are no short cuts. I don't sugar coat things, but I do hope that in some small way that my posts can provide a glimmer of hope for a hurting BS.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Just Learning Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 06:27 PM
helpthelostdads,

You said
Quote
I've been on this board for nearly four years. I have seen many more marriages fail from infidelity than succeed, especially when a WW is involved. Seems like the WHs have a slightly higher chance of coming to their senses, but I have very very rarely seen it in the WW's.


Interesting comment coming from someone who spent a long time on this board focused on himself.

I have been on this site since Feb 99 and registered Aug 99. That is working out to close to 11 years and I have seen absolute miracles worked on this site. I have seen ordinary couples with many problems NOT JUST AFFAIRs rebuild their marriages and I have some situations that were just horrible make it.

I have no idea how Gerka's situation will turn out, but I am confident that he will come out of this a better man and a better husband to some women whether it is his current W or another. However, one only learns by doing and the plan and process that Gerka is in right now, will serve HIM well no matter what happens with his W.

Not all marriage can be saved, but I can say with certitude that Gerka will be helped and he won't regret trying to save his marriage.

JL

PS: I don't know if Gerka does but I find your assumption that Gerka is stupid enough to have not considered that this won't work out offensive. He KNOWS how things can turn out badly he is in a combat zone for God's sake. You make you statement now let the man get on with his plan.
Posted By: BobJan Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 06:48 PM
I am right there with you helpthelostdads!
Posted By: coachswife Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 06:54 PM
I'm pretty sure I know who HLD is.

HLD- the sloppy seconds comment you made was uncalled for and more than that-cruel.

You can get your point across without being cruel- and it has nothing to do with not "sugar coating" the truth.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 07:05 PM
Quote
Gerka, friends provide invaluable input. What do people who know both of you tell you? What does your family think?


I think the most valuable input for someone WHO WANTS TO SAVE HIS MARRIAGE, comes from people who have saved theirs.

Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 07:05 PM
Well, this isn't the reply from WW I was expecting:
You are insane to think that we are even on speaking terms after what you did to me. Fortunately, I think most other officers think it is pretty despicable for an officer to use the army to try to arbitrate their personal problems, especially when that includes accusing another officer of completely unfounded criminal charges. The next time you speak to me you should plan for there to be a lawyer or a judge present.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 07:07 PM
Honestly it makes my blood boil for her to say "completely unfounded criminal charges" when she told me herself exactly what she was doing. She knows they're very well founded.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 07:09 PM
Quote
PS: I don't know if Gerka does but I find your assumption that Gerka is stupid enough to have not considered that this won't work out offensive. He KNOWS how things can turn out badly he is in a combat zone for God's sake. You make you statement now let the man get on with his plan.


I agree 100%.

HTLD is like a broken record. In fact his first two posts on this thread were EXACTLY word for word the same.

HTLD,

Gerka heard what you said, and has rejected it.

He WANTS to try to save his marriage.

Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 07:12 PM
I honestly don't know how to respond to that email? Thoughts? Ideas?
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 07:16 PM
She wasn't writing it for you.

Now you know they are going to deny the A.

Which is why I still think it was OM who wrote you that e-mail. He wanted you to say what you did wrong in the M so he could use that as his defense. To say, Look, he even admits what was wrong w/ their M...it had nothing to do w/ me.

Just sit on that e-mail for a bit...let others offer up suggestions.
Posted By: coachswife Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 07:16 PM
I'm not sure how to respond. She doesn't really know at this point how much proof you do have does she?? I wouldn't show my cards at this point.

As far as other officers being po'd about you using the military system to fix your personal problems??? I would think they would be more upset over two officers who know better screwing around on their spouses. That just screams ethical doesn't it?

Others will weigh in here on how to answer. Perhaps maybe a little. "As I said before I love you and I will do anything necessary to save my marriage" But let some of the vets say for sure what you should say.
Posted By: markos Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 07:17 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
I honestly don't know how to respond to that email? Thoughts? Ideas?

First of all, I'm confused why the army has policies on the subject of adultery if it's despicable to ask the army to act on it and if that subject is really just "personal problems." If most officers really felt that way, it seems like this policy wouldn't exist.

DON'T put that in your response; I'm just giving you some first thoughts for you to think about because I know your reaction feelings to that comment are probably strong.

Fighting for your marriage is not despicable, Gerk. What is despicable is not keeping your vows to your one and only.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 07:18 PM
Yeah, I'm waiting for some of the old timers to offer some sage advice. I just wish the "give up and leave the sloppy seconds" guy would get the [censored] out of the thread, and everyone else would quit arguing with him.
Posted By: coachswife Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 07:20 PM
I understand and I'm sorry.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 07:22 PM
Hey Gurka,

Quote
You are insane to think that we are even on speaking terms after what you did to me.


Hmmm... she's speaking to you by replying to your e-mail, right? hurray


Quote
Fortunately, I think most other officers think it is pretty despicable for an officer to use the army to try to arbitrate their personal problems, especially when that includes accusing another officer of
completely unfounded criminal charges .

Hmmm... Seems like you've been discussing this with several former/retired officers and THEY all think that it's pretty dispicable for a married 2LT to have an A with another "officer" when her husband is deployed to a combat zone... Oh, and last time I checked, her commander and OM's commander are both officers... think

What's really interesting is her use of the term "criminal charges"... I think you just found your proof that the investigations are on-going and your W has already been questioned! grin

I wonder who "most other officers" are??? Would that be OM? and maybe OM's buddies that are now being hauled into an office to fill out sworn statements??? rotflmao

Quote
The next time you speak to me you should plan for there to be a lawyer or a judge present.


You really should start keeping count of how many times she throws out the "lawyer/judge" thing at you... it could be very entertaining! Seriously, I think she's just blowing smoke at you because she's scared and realizes just how much trouble shes in (oh and how much trouble the OM in as well!)

Gee, bet this will put a huge crimp on their little A, huh?

Gurka - You are in a very good place right now! Keep your focus and don't let these e-mails get to you. You knew they were coming and you pretty much knew what to expect! There will be more... so be ready.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 07:26 PM
If nothing else she's confirmed her intent to try to to lie her way through everything.

So this is something I should reply to at all? I sent her a teddy bear from Bagram on April 4th and I'm wondering if she got it, would it be a bad time to ask?
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 07:31 PM
also "after what you did to me." Makes me feel like my head might explode. Seriously? After what I did to her? How [censored] selfish can you be? Everything that's happened has been a direct result of her actions.

I may lose my mind if she actually manages to lie her way out of any consequences.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 07:32 PM
Originally Posted by helpthelostdads
I'm sorry to be the Debbie Downer of this thread, but everything Gerk has posted about his marriage and his wife indicates that this is a woman that has big issues that aren't going to change once NC is established.

If OM disappears forever, you're still left with a woman that has massive, unresolved psych issues, huge self esteem problems, a craving for male attention, immaturity, unrealistic expectations of marriage, a broken career, and then the sloppy seconds of another man.

Women that needy have massive issues.

This is out of line and contrary to what is trying to be accomplished, here. First of all, if/when Gerka succeeds in bringing his wife back to the marriage, they will need to do the work of recovering the marriage. No marriage = no wife with 'childhood issues' to resolve.

If, indeed, this woman has been damaged from childhood abuse, needs a man in her life, and anything else you threw into the 'damaged psyche' pot, it needs to be explored as a separate issue from the marriage. And the chance is very, very good that, once they have begun inititating MB principles to restore their M, many of these supposed issues will resolve themselves or diminish to a point of manageability.

Your post is akin to saying that adult survivors of abuse will become abusers themselves. As an adult survivor, I can tell you that this is a huge, HUGE over-generalization and is distracting, disengenuous, and dangerous.
Posted By: Vittoria Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 07:33 PM
All the replies from your WW, normal and expected.

Don't get rattled.

I'd wait to send a reply, then maybe talk about the NHL playoffs, not if she hates hockey though! Maybe mention the lobster and steak.

Ignore her rants. Waywards lie too, a lot, take her info at face value right now.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 07:35 PM
Grrr, I can just feel myself getting angrier and angrier (not just about people continuing to argue with helpthelostdads in my thread.)

"after what you did to me." How can anyone be so blindly selfish? I feel myself shutting down and just going back to the "I don't deserve this, I just don't," stage.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 07:38 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
Well, this isn't the reply from WW I was expecting:
You are insane to think that we are even on speaking terms after what you did to me. Fortunately, I think most other officers think it is pretty despicable for an officer to use the army to try to arbitrate their personal problems, especially when that includes accusing another officer of completely unfounded criminal charges. The next time you speak to me you should plan for there to be a lawyer or a judge present.

See I wasn't too far off when I predicted:

Quote
Just so you are prepared, here will be her response:

"If you cared about me you would have never betrayed me by telling my CO. I'm never telling you anything again. You'll just use it against me. I hope you choked on your steak and lobster. Just sign the divorce papers I sent you."

Don't respond at all to this. Just send her another email in a couple days similar to the one you sent today.

And just ignore papaof...er...helpthelostdads. His WW has made him very cynical.

Oh, and get to bed already!
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 07:41 PM
Yeah, wait a bit before replying...you need to settle down first so you can think strategically.

And yeah, I wouldn't ask her if she got the bear you sent.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 07:41 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
Grrr, I can just feel myself getting angrier and angrier (not just about people continuing to argue with helpthelostdads in my thread.)

"after what you did to me." How can anyone be so blindly selfish? I feel myself shutting down and just going back to the "I don't deserve this, I just don't," stage.

Calm down, I told you to expect this response. She's going to be cojpletely livid for a few weeks. That doesn't mean you should completely ignore her and stop trying to meet her ENs. It means you need to recognize her for what she is, a struggling addict, and compartmentalize the pain. Just relax and take care of yourself. The truth is you just made a 1/100 of a love bank unit deposit without making any withdrawals.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 07:42 PM
You know, I couldn't imagine what this situation is like for most people when they deal with it in person. I can't imagine what it would be like having your spouse say something like that to your face. Just boldly lying, going back on what they've already admitted to. It's maddening. Such a selfish little girl, just worried about herself and how mean the big bad world is to her. How she could paint herself as a victim here and maintain any sort of respect for herself is beyond me.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 07:44 PM
Hey Gurka!

Wow, you're up late...

Now, to answer your question about responding... my first thought is to sit on it for a day or so and see what happens.

Based on her e-mail, the investigation has started and OM has already contacted her again to "share" his news with her. It won't be long until OM is in "self protection" mode as he fights to keep his career out of the gutter and not get tossed out with 16.5 years.

If you do decide to reply, I'd stick with the "I love you and will do everything that I can to save OUR marriage." Nothing more.

Don't try to argue with the fact that most of the people that YOU are talking with think that what SHE is doing is dispicable.

...and trying to 'educate' her of the fact that you aren't using "unfounded" charges against OM to solve your "personal" issues will just give her an excuse to argue with you.

Again, you are in a good place Gurka. You've exposed the A and it will not last. The consequences of your W and OM are about to come home to roost and they are both going to have to deal with them.

Don't worry about her comment of "What you did to me"... They brought this on themselves so any accusation of "ruining" their careers or bringing up "unfounded criminal charges" is just a smokescreen. Remember, we said that you were going to hear stuff like this. Go back and read some of the early parts of your thread...

As for the teddy bear.... how about "Hi Sweetie, just wanted to see if you got the bear that I sent you. I was thinking of you and hope that you are doing well. Love - Gurka"

I may lose my mind if she actually manages to lie her way out of any consequences.


Don't worry about the results of the investigation. Your single goal here is to END THE AFFAIR... The A is on it's last legs now and will soon be over. You might want to consider talking with your Doc and seeing if you can get some Zyban to help take the "edge" off. They have this in theater as its the same stuff that they give you to help you quit smoking... I think that the military passes out Zyban which is a generic form of Wellbutrin.

Semper Fi,

RIF

Posted By: Vittoria Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 07:45 PM
Gerk, picture this in your head .........

FWH has just found out that family and friends know of the A, from my exposure.

His face is beat red with anger, looks like he is about to pop his lid right off.

One fist is clenched, the other holds a glass of milk.

He starts screaming, ' YOU WILL NOT RUIN MY REPUTATION !!!! '

Then throws the glass of milk at me, his aim is a bit off but I still get some on me.

This is a grown, supposedly mature man. No history of violence.

He is taking a tantrum cuz people know about his sleezy behaviour. He's been caught.

He wouldn't be so irate if he didn't think it was sleezy too.

I'm pretty sure this a lame reaction compared to some WS's, I hope you get the drift.
Posted By: markos Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 07:47 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
Yeah, I'm waiting for some of the old timers to offer some sage advice. I just wish the "give up and leave the sloppy seconds" guy would get the [censored] out of the thread, and everyone else would quit arguing with him.

Message received.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 07:47 PM
There is NOTHING unusual in her reponse to you.

It was expected.

You just took a crack pipe away from a crackhead.

Of course she's not thinking of anyone else but hereslf.

It's all perfectly normal and expected.

Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 07:48 PM
I'm worried about the results of the investigation because if they're going to try to lie their way through, they need to burn.

The kind of absolute selfishness on display here isn't a quality that belongs in any leader. You put the people you care about first, whether those are your soldiers or your spouse.

I'm not a big fan of mind-state altering drugs, so I think I'll skip that. I may go to bed soon though, it's nearly 0030 here.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 07:52 PM
Originally Posted by Vittoria
Gerk, picture this in your head .........

FWH has just found out that family and friends know of the A, from my exposure.

His face is beat red with anger, looks like he is about to pop his lid right off.

One fist is clenched, the other holds a glass of milk.

He starts screaming, ' YOU WILL NOT RUIN MY REPUTATION !!!! '

Then throws the glass of milk at me, his aim is a bit off but I still get some on me.

This is a grown, supposedly mature man. No history of violence.

He is taking a tantrum cuz people know about his sleezy behaviour. He's been caught.

He wouldn't be so irate if he didn't think it was sleezy too.

I'm pretty sure this a lame reaction compared to some WS's, I hope you get the drift.

Does it not bother you to think, "I would never do that." Not the affair, not the lying, not throwing things or getting angry and trying to hurt your spouse. That's what makes it all so shocking for me, is that it's all unfathomable to me. I would never do any of it, and I assumed that this person that I've known for 5 years and spent my life getting to know was pretty similar to me in that way. I'm left wondering just what kind of person she really is, because it doesn't seem like she's the same kind as me.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 07:53 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
Grrr, I can just feel myself getting angrier and angrier (not just about people continuing to argue with helpthelostdads in my thread.)

"after what you did to me." How can anyone be so blindly selfish? I feel myself shutting down and just going back to the "I don't deserve this, I just don't," stage.

Sorry, gerka - I posted to htld before I read this smile

Your WW has one thing orbiting in her world - herself. She is incapable of seeing that you're trying to save your M.

When you respond to her email, I think I'd skip the "I'll do whatever it takes" line. Mainly because she might take it out of context and apply it to 'doing crazy things' to save your M.

Perhaps something like "I love you and I love our marriage."
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 07:53 PM
Quote
I can't imagine what it would be like having your spouse say something like that to your face. Just boldly lying, going back on what they've already admitted to. It's maddening.


Yes it is...

Quote
How she could paint herself as a victim here and maintain any sort of respect for herself is beyond me.


I understand completely. When we started MC in Jan 01, Mrs. RIF told the MC that I was controlling and mean and that's why she slept around. think

Your wife is re-writing the history of the M in order to help justify her actions. This is all part of her battle plan and she's going to stick with it for a while. Don't waste too much thought on her comments for now... they won't make very much sense and you'll go nuts trying to rationalize them in your own mind. Her comments are coming from an addict that just found out that her drug is going to be take away from her.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Vittoria Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 07:54 PM
"Hi Sweetie, just wanted to see if you got the bear that I sent you. I was thinking of you and hope that you are doing well. Love Gurka"

I'm not an old timer but my thought on this is .....

Seems sarcastic and would likely pee me off more. I wouldn't mention the bear since it may be in bear heaven.

See what others think.
Posted By: ouchthathurt Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 07:55 PM
Tell her

"The only thing I have done, is lived my life and my marriage in the light. It is what I require from my wife and a fellow officer. Nothing that has been reported or conveyed along the chain of command is done out of spite, but with a deep disappointment and sorrow. I initially tried to reconcile our relationship with love and understanding. But your failure to break off your affair with xxxxx left me no alternative but to act in any way possible that coincides with both the vows that I made you and the vows I made to my country. I am sorry if the path that you left me creates a larger gulf between us. But I was left no choice. I love you and hope that when this situation is resolved that we can focus on reconciling our marriage. As always, I am here for you and will love and support you in any way I can."

Just a thought.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 07:59 PM
Originally Posted by ouchthathurt
Tell her

"The only thing I have done, is lived my life and my marriage in the light. It is what I require from my wife and a fellow officer. Nothing that has been reported or conveyed along the chain of command is done out of spite, but with a deep disappointment and sorrow. I initially tried to reconcile our relationship with love and understanding. But your failure to break off your affair with xxxxx left me no alternative but to act in any way possible that coincides with both the vows that I made you and the vows I made to my country. I am sorry if the path that you left me creates a larger gulf between us. But I was left no choice. I love you and hope that when this situation is resolved that we can focus on reconciling our marriage. As always, I am here for you and will love and support you in any way I can."

Just a thought.

I like this alot.

But, I'd still wait a day or two before sending it.

Posted By: believer Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 07:59 PM
I would just rest up and sit back and wait for round 2. The Mrs is confused. First she said that you were ignoring her, and now she doesn't want to speak to you.

Just give it some time. The OM will be seriously covering his ###, and she will be the first one thrown under the bus.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 08:02 PM
Hey Gurka - I wouldn't worry too much about the investigation. No matter what happens, both your W and the OM will never recover their Army careers from this.

They have not lived up to the Army values and this will be passed on to their next commander IF they actually have another assignment.

Got it on the "mind altering drugs".... just know that they are there for you if you find yourself fidgity or anxious througout the day... now the Mefloquine that I took on both of my tours in A-Stan was "mind altering"!!! I had the weirdest dreams when I was taking that stuff...

Im going to sign off too as it's 2300hrs here and I've got a full day tomorrow...

Try and relax focus on the fact that the A is in it's final stages, if not already over...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 08:09 PM
Originally Posted by Marshmallow
Originally Posted by ouchthathurt
Tell her

"The only thing I have done, is lived my life and my marriage in the light. It is what I require from my wife and a fellow officer. Nothing that has been reported or conveyed along the chain of command is done out of spite, but with a deep disappointment and sorrow. I initially tried to reconcile our relationship with love and understanding. But your failure to break off your affair with xxxxx left me no alternative but to act in any way possible that coincides with both the vows that I made you and the vows I made to my country. I am sorry if the path that you left me creates a larger gulf between us. But I was left no choice. I love you and hope that when this situation is resolved that we can focus on reconciling our marriage. As always, I am here for you and will love and support you in any way I can."

Just a thought.

I like this alot.

But, I'd still wait a day or two before sending it.

I like that a lot too. I will wait a day or two.

Mainly because I just want to write back "I HOPE YOU BURN" right now. mad
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 08:12 PM
Quote
I'm left wondering just what kind of person she really is, because it doesn't seem like she's the same kind as me.


She isn't the same person she was.

Addicts become people that their own families don't recognize.

Try not to think about what she said. You wouldn't pay too much attention to a falling down drunk, would you?

Your WW is no different...right now.



Posted By: Vittoria Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 08:14 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
Originally Posted by Vittoria
Gerk, picture this in your head .........

FWH has just found out that family and friends know of the A, from my exposure.

His face is beat red with anger, looks like he is about to pop his lid right off.

One fist is clenched, the other holds a glass of milk.

He starts screaming, ' YOU WILL NOT RUIN MY REPUTATION !!!! '

Then throws the glass of milk at me, his aim is a bit off but I still get some on me.

This is a grown, supposedly mature man. No history of violence.

He is taking a tantrum cuz people know about his sleezy behaviour. He's been caught.

He wouldn't be so irate if he didn't think it was sleezy too.

I'm pretty sure this a lame reaction compared to some WS's, I hope you get the drift.

Does it not bother you to think, "I would never do that." Not the affair, not the lying, not throwing things or getting angry and trying to hurt your spouse. That's what makes it all so shocking for me, is that it's all unfathomable to me. I would never do any of it, and I assumed that this person that I've known for 5 years and spent my life getting to know was pretty similar to me in that way. I'm left wondering just what kind of person she really is, because it doesn't seem like she's the same kind as me.
Absolutely bothered me. Ignoring his crap was one of the hardest things, at that point, I've ever done.
From reading here, I learned to picture him as an alien, sounds so stupid doesn't it.
I kept saying to myself, don't take this personally....... I have to admit that at one point, I just wanted to laugh cuz he
was behaving so childish. I mean, he through milk for crying out loud.

WS's act no different when exposed, than a raccoon cornered in the barn by a bunch of dogs.
I bet my H wouldn't even remember that episode now.

He got over his rage in time. My H is not now, the person that he became while in his A.
He's a better person.

Don't focus so much on what WW is doing or saying now.
Later, after withdrawl, will be the time to assess her actions and words.

You'll understand that more, when the time comes.

You mentioned that you don't deserve this, no, you don't.
Remember, you did not cause your WW's choice to let a third party in.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 08:15 PM
Personally I would avoid ALL relationship talk and just stick to small talk for the time being. You trying to defend your actions will just seem like a love buster. Send her some pleasant small talk twice a week and ignore the crazy responses. Like I said earlier, plan A your spouse, and plan B your wayward spouse. You got your point across that you are not ignoring her. You also found that "never talking to you again" only lasted as long as a couple days. Just let her vent for a couple weeks before sending the "I just did it for our marriage" speech. Let her find out the OM is bailing on her before you pull that out.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 08:18 PM
Quote
I like that a lot too. I will wait a day or two.

Mainly because I just want to write back "I HOPE YOU BURN" right now.


Yup.

And once you send the e-mail, you must "gird your loins" for the next shot she will take at you.

She is following a script. Everytime you reach out to her, she will lash out at you.

You've got to be ready for it.
Posted By: ouchthathurt Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 08:23 PM
Will the army use one of the affair partners against the other? Like they do in civilian courts. Which one would it be?
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 08:26 PM
Originally Posted by ouchthathurt
Will the army use one of the affair partners against the other? Like they do in civilian courts. Which one would it be?

They're running two separate investigations. I don't think they commingle them at all, but I could be wrong.
Posted By: turtlehead Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 08:44 PM
I agree with Jim. Skip all relationship talk for now. She will only see it as you picking a fight.

Go silent and send her something short and upbeat on Sunday.

You can ignore people if you find they are doing you more harm than good. Click on their name by their post, then go to their profile, and there is a link to ignore the user.

As far as WW's reply... hey, conflict is better than withdrawal as far as I'm concerned. Sure she's angry. That's good! It means the affair is dust.

Try to imagine her comments coming from a toddler trying to "reason" with you so that they can get their way. The fury is real, the logic is lacking, and if you can step back from it a bit, it can actually be kind of entertaining. Your WW is giving you the adult version of "I hate you and I wish you were dead and where are my real parents? My real parents would let me eat glue! Everyone I know loves glue and they are just fine!! You and your vegetables disgust me; I hope you're happy now that you've made me vomit because of your vegetables. I'll never eat another bite and then I'll starve and then you'll have to live with the guilt of WHAT YOU DID TO ME."
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 10:33 PM
Gerka,

My apologies if my words about "sloppy seconds" hurt. I was projecting how I felt as time went on and I was healing from things.

The best advice I got when I was going through my he77 was advice I found repulsive and didn't want to hear.

Looking back it was the wisest advice I received and I wish I had followed it.

Things will get much worse before they get better. Your emotions will be a rollercoaster. You will go through crying and despair and you will have crazy swings from one extreme to another.

Your anger towards her and OM will be the worst you've ever felt towards another human being.

Some folks again have mis-interpreted what I've said about abuse victims. I haven't painted all of them in that fashion and I believe I made it clear that many don't act in this manner.

My intent is not to anger you, though it's obvious I have. For that I'm sorry. A BS suffers from fog as much as a wayward does. Our fog tends to keep us from doing smart things or paralyzes us with fear. Again, I've been there. I understand. You're obviously not one of the BHs frozen with fear of the WW's anger.

I really hope you're one of the happy stories on here. I understand your anger towards me. I felt the same towards some people who told me to throw her out with all her stuff. My anger came at myself as time went on as I healed. I didn't protect myself when I was in your shoes in terms of my kids.

I DONT want to see you go down that road, have kids with a woman like this, and then face this horrible situation again in your future.

Perhaps she'll change. I pray she does, especially if you decide to stay with her.

This sucks to deal with on deployment.

I know you don't believe me, but I'm rooting for you and do want a good outcome for you, whatever that may be.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: WW waffling between us - 04/23/10 11:23 PM
gerka,

Have you noticed that none of us are as outraged about her comments as you? Have you noticed that RIF and others are still guiding you? Have you noticed that you have been told her behavior is "normal"? Have you noticed that we have referred to her as an alien who replaced your W?

The reason you may have noticed these things is because as odd as it sounds, your W's behavior is absolutely textbook in her actions and words. While it probably will give you no comfort at this point, there is nothing "special" about her affair, her words, or her denial. There is nothing "special" about her rewriting history, abandoning all morals, and reneging on her sworn oath as an Officer in the US military.

RIF pointed out that most people get punished following an affair for lying under oath, not for the affair itself. She is lying, he is lying, and they will continue to lie until they are hauled before a board and the hammer of justice is lowered.

My recommendation is Time and Patience. Give this time, have patience with yourself, the process, and even her. Whenever, you start to get in a spiral, just say to yourself, T&P, T&P, T&P. I tell you this because "this too shall pass." It will pass Gerka, I promise you that.

RIF pointed out that most officers do NOT, feel that adultery is acceptable especially between members of the military. He is NOT lying. My best friend in the military and the best man at my wedding was a JAG, and even in those "old" wink days adultery was not condoned or accepted. And lying to a board was NEVER accepted.

I will tell you that you might want to forward what you heard about the OCS activities of your W. Some of her classmates may know more than you realize and under oath, surprises do come out.

Just remember, the MAIN goal is to end the affair, then there will be options.

Hang in there.

JL
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/24/10 03:22 AM
Good morning Gurka!

Quote
They're running two separate investigations. I don't think they commingle them at all, but I could be wrong.


When I was investigating the LTC and civilian, the civilan had already moved back to the states and the LTC was still in A-Stan.

The CID from her home region contacted the CID in A-Stan and provded all of the sworn statements from her and left it up to the LTC's chain of command to do he investigation. That's how I ended up being "selected" to do the investigation.

It makes sense that they would hold separate invesigations since both service members are located at different bases... I would strongly suspect that the commands ARE sharing information between the two investigations. The most likely scenario would be an initial "fact finding" phase at each command followed by an evaluation phase.

The evaluation phase is where the notes of each investigation would most logically be "compaired" in order to ensure that both investigating offices have covered all of their questions.

Once this is done, the investigating officer will write up their findings based on the direction of the investigation. In other words, the Cdr has given each investigating officer a set of issues to investigate such as: Did LT Gurka's Wife violate Article 134 by having sexual relations with someone other than her husband? Did LT Gurka's Wife violate Article 92 by engaging in an improper relationship with OM in violation of the standing order of the CG? ...and so on. Same with the OM's investigation.

The investigating officer(s) will come up with their findings and state whether or not they met the criteria of violation for the various charges and allegations. These will be submitted to the commander along with the investigating officer's RECOMMENDATION to the commander. (Please note that each investigating officer will work very closely with the JAG throughout the investigation to ensure that they cover all of the bases and don't leave anything out)

It's ultimately up to the commander as to what punishment he/she will give out. I suspect that each case will go before a General Officer as they usually reserve the right to prosecute officers and don't let BN or Bde Cdr's handle cases like this.

So, relax, focus on Plan-A, and know that the wheels of military justice are turning. Both OM and your W are in a world of hurt regardless of the "outcome"... at a minimum, they will both get GO letters of reprimand, and that will ensure that they will NOT have much of an Army career.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/24/10 03:38 AM
Ok, it's another day, I've calmed down a little bit. I'll wait for tomorrow and send another light little message about my day, which I expect to be ignored at this point.
Posted By: InLikeFlynn Re: WW waffling between us - 04/24/10 04:08 AM
Just remember that your wife may use your email statements against you. So be careful what you say and how you word it!
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/24/10 04:41 AM
Well I haven't done anything wrong or lied about anything, so....

And like I said, it'll just be light conversation.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/24/10 06:09 AM
I woudn't worry about her using any of your e-mails... the investigating officer(s) will use the information you provided to come up with their questions...

It will be your W's and OM's responsibility to prove that your 'allegations' are false, and in this case, since you've provided the phone records that show hours upon hours of contact, they won't be able to prove anything.

And yes, the most likely will be "caught" because they lied during the investigation...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/24/10 06:24 AM
The phone records show 6 months of hours and hours of phone calls and thousands of text messages every month. If they say, "we're just really good friends" is that going to fly?
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/24/10 06:35 AM
hmmm... If pigs had wings, they could probably fly...

Nope, it's not going to fly...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/24/10 08:43 AM
Just got back from lunch, had a pretty good workout afterwards. That Taylor Swift song "Should've said no" came on my mp3 player, I took it as a sign.

Given one chance, it was a moment of weakness,
And you said yes

You should've said no,
You should've gone home,
You should have thought twice before you let it all go.
You should've known that word about what you did with her would get back to me.
And I should've been there, in the back of your mind,
Shouldn't be asking myself why,
You shouldn't be begging for forgivness at my feet,
You should've said no,
Baby and you might still have me.


Girly song, but whatever, it picked me up quite a bit.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/24/10 09:44 AM
Quote
Girly song, but whatever, it picked me up quite a bit.


Just got back from lunch myself... It's definitely starting to warm up here.

Glad that this song was abe to pick you up! You'll find that many songs that you've heard will have a 'new' meaning.

You're getting some great advice on the e-mails! I think I'll stick to other things as I'm not nearly as good as they are on putting my feelings down on paper.

Hope your afternoon is going well...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/24/10 02:38 PM
How's this for something lighthearted to send WW?

Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/24/10 03:13 PM
Cute! I appreciate it Marshmallow. I'll include it in the lighthearted message tomorrow.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/24/10 03:40 PM
You could write something like... "Just when I thought I had it rough, I see this poor guy getting viciously attacked by these lickthirsty devils!"

LOL

Or not.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/24/10 05:45 PM
WW unfriended my parents on facebook too. People that have picked her and dropped her off from the airport, got her a new tv for her apartment in AZ for Christmas, and always treated her like the daughter they never had. I can't believe it.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/24/10 06:03 PM
You're going to have to try to emotionally detach yourself from her behavior.

I know it totally sucks.

She's a falling down drunk. Nothing she does makes sense to those of us who are sober.
Posted By: Vittoria Re: WW waffling between us - 04/24/10 07:04 PM
Hey Gurka,
All of this FB defriending of you and your parents, it's just like the milk.
It's immature, use what I can at the moment, irrational acts.
That doesn't mean that they don't hurt us, since we know the feelings behind those actions,
but in the big picture, they really are unimportant.

So, you are keeping up with your working out, and sounds like you are eating pretty well.
All of this is good. It's important to keep yourself healthy. Physically and emotionally.
A lot of us are victims of the famous infidelity diet, we lose weight unintentionally,
from stress and just can't eat. We lose our mental stamina, cuz we live and breathe
the infidelity crisis. It can silently catch up to you and leave you a nervous wreck.

Take care of you.

Try to keep up with the activities that you enjoy, and the ones that give you relaxation.
Get your sleep! First and foremost comes your safety.
Dealing with all of this, is stressful and exhausting.
If you were a female, we'd suggest you to go out and get a pedicure or a massage.
I'll let you decide what it is that you could do. wink

I like that puppy video, A LOT! What girl doesn't like puppies. smile



Rif,
Originally Posted by RIF
You're getting some great advice on the e-mails! I think I'll stick to other things as I'm not nearly as good as they are on putting my feelings down on paper.
I'm wondering if this, the bolded, comes from my take on your last thought for a response to WW.
I haven't read anything from you that I haven't agreed with, so I think your suggestions have all been spot on..
That one, from a female perspective, gave me a twinge. I prolly should have worded my post a little
different. Something like, "this could be taken sarcastically", would have been better.
I think you are a doing a fabulous job with support here and I apologize if I gave you reason to question
your advice, in that dept.
Hope we're cool

Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 02:17 AM
We're heading out to do some training this morning (Sunday.) I was talking to one of the Air Force LTs earlier and he was saying that he was captain of the Air Force Academy chess team. I told him about you, and where we went to school. He'd actually heard of some our friends.

Also, just when I think I've got it bad, I see something like this:
At least I'm not under attack my a pack of lick-happy lab puppies! Though pretty much the same thing happens when I go out to feed the puppies outside our office.

Jeff

Shot out on this.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 03:19 AM
Good Morning Gurka,

You've probably already left for your training this morning... Hope all goes well and eveyone stays safe!

I agree with Vittoria, the FB de-friending is just another way of her lashing out at the ones that she thinks are "taking her fun away"! Deep down, I suspect that your W knows that your parents don't approve of what she's doing and her real reason is that she is ashamed because she knows that she's dissapointed them.

She would never admit to this, but most people want to please their parents and in-laws... If she wasn't ashamed of her actions, or if she truly didn't think her actions were wrong, she would have gladly shared all of the news of the OM with everyone! But she didn' do that... she kept it hidden.

Now that she's been "caught", she doesn't want any "link" to your parents in case they too, try to discuss her immoral behaviour with her... so de-friending your parents is her way of cutting off communications AND it helps ease her guilt (for a little while).

Hi Vittoria - No worries on your comments... I'm just an old-fashioned romantic at heart and I really do have a hard time with well worded, up to date things to say. I liked what you suggested MUCH better! grin

Hey Gurka - They used to have a day spa at Camp Eggers where you could get a massage, manicure or pedicure... you could go there sometime and pamper yourself! hee hee laugh ...that is unless GEN McChrystal kicked them out of theater like he did with the Burger King!

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: believer Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 03:20 AM
Sunday morning training? YIKES!
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 05:21 AM
My last post was the email I sent her this morning. I didn't get a response.

Done with training, back in the office now. We only take Fridays off, every other day is a regular work day.

All the stuff at Eggers, and everywhere else in Afghanistan is still open. BAF, KAF, Phoenix, Salerno, etc. I've been to all of them since the "deadline" of April 1st, and everything was still humming along with no indication of closing.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 06:08 AM
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All the stuff at Eggers, and everywhere else in Afghanistan is still open. BAF, KAF, Phoenix, Salerno, etc. I've been to all of them since the "deadline" of April 1st, and everything was still humming along with no indication of closing.


Yeah, AAFES doesn't miss a chance to make a buck! I'm sure they'll drag this out as long as they can... You wouldn't believe the size of the PX here at VBC, it's almost as big as the one at Ft. Polk! (Yeah, I was stationed there for 3 years... Mrs. RIF HATED Ft. Polk!!!)

We get 1/2 a day off on Fridays, then 10hrs for the other six days... the days are long, but the weeks sure go by fast!

Glad you made it back safely!

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 06:19 AM
For a minute there I thought you meant you had 10 hours off for the other 6 days combined. Haha.

Realistically the ANA that we're "mentoring" here don't come to work on Thursdays, Fridays, or Saturdays, and all the other days of the week they're gone by 1400.

I'm starving, can't get to lunch soon enough!
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 06:32 AM
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Realistically the ANA that we're "mentoring" here don't come to work on Thursdays, Fridays, or Saturdays, and all the other days of the week they're gone by 1400.


In Shalah! Have you been over there for Ramahdan??? They take off for almost an entire month... then a few weeks later, they have another 7 day holiday!

It's a wonder they ever get anything done...
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 06:37 AM
No one in the Army obeys their "pass and leave" policy. Corps commanders will just tell everyone to take 3 weeks off.

So I guess I'll just continue the casual, upbeat updates with my WW every other day for a couple weeks and give her time to calm down before I try explaining the whole, "I'm doing this out of love, not spite" thing.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 06:50 AM
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So I guess I'll just continue the casual, upbeat updates with my WW every other day for a couple weeks and give her time to calm down before I try explaining the whole, "I'm doing this out of love, not spite" thing.


Hey Gurka - sounds like a good plan. As long as she's still in contact with you, then I think that's a good thing! (even though her e-mails will most likely mean and spiteful)

The investigations shouldn't take more than two to three weeks at the most... between now and then, expect more hateful e-mails and continued threats from her.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 07:55 AM
One of my good friends, smart guy, is telling me I'm going about this entirely the wrong way. He's saying she'll never, ever forgive me for ruining, or trying to ruin her job.

Pretty much all my friends were on board with the exposure, but none of them think that it can possibly lead to saving the marriage.
Posted By: ouchthathurt Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 09:15 AM
How many of them have lost a marriage or saved one?
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 09:57 AM
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One of my good friends, smart guy, is telling me I'm going about this entirely the wrong way. He's saying she'll never, ever forgive me for ruining, or trying to ruin her job.

Pretty much all my friends were on board with the exposure, but none of them think that it can possibly lead to saving the marriage.


Hey Gurka,

I would venture a guess that most of the people that you've talked with don't know about the MB concepts.

You wife may NOT forgive you, but that will be HER lose, not yours. You will learn more about yourself along the way here and you will be a much stronger person for taking the "hard" road, regardless of whether or not you rebuild you M.

I think that I mentioned this before, but when I found out about Mrs. RIF's 'firs' A, my CO Cdr and Bn Cdr, and all of my fellow LT's told me to dump Mrs. RIF because she was "never" going to change.

When your friends tell you things like this, take it for what it's worth, and add it to your decision making process. For now, I think that you are tracking very well with exposure and Plan-A. Your W's words and actions will definitely "support" your friends comments so it would be pretty easy to start agreeing with them. Only you can decide what you want to do.

We're here to offer up a proven plan for rebuilding your M after an A. There are many people here that have recovered their marriages from much worse (I know, nobody has a "worse" situation that you, especially when you're going through it!) situations. Just knowing this fact, hopefully, will help you get through the many self doubts that you WILL have along the way.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 10:44 AM
I just feel like at soon as I confronted her, she was already gone. It was, "we don't have a marriage to fix, I want out. I'm done. I want a divorce." Immediately upon being confronted.

She waffled, as the title of the thread suggests, at times embracing the MB concepts. But ultimately she seemed to choose OM. And now I've really pissed her off.

I guess what I'm saying is that if your plan works, it's certainly counter-intuitive. I'm still sticking to it, because I think it's the best chance I have of saving my marriage, but I'm certainly skeptical.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 12:40 PM
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... it's certainly counter-intuitive. I'm still sticking to it, because I think it's the best chance I have of saving my marriage, but I'm certainly skeptical.


Exactly!!!

This is a long, hard road that you're choosing to take, but it CAN work.

Go back to the beggining of this tread and read some of the comments that we've posted regarding HOW your W would react when you exposed... go back and read what some posters even said regarding what her first couple of e-mails would have in them...

We've been where you are and there's really nothing different or "special" in how a WS reacts when the A is exposed. We've seen it, you are living it... I'm not saying that everything will be 100% exactly alike, but I would bet that our past experiences are at least 90-95% similar to what you are and will experience as you travel down this road.

Glad you've decided to stick around for a while! We'll be right here with you every step of the way!

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 01:09 PM
Forwarded her some pictures my parents sent me of our dog playing outside, and then of him taking a nap afterwards. Should I expect a response of, "You know I'm keeping him, right?"
Posted By: Vittoria Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 01:10 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
One of my good friends, smart guy, is telling me I'm going about this entirely the wrong way. He's saying she'll never, ever forgive me for ruining, or trying to ruin her job.
lol, I used to think the same.
When I first read about exposure, I thought, OMG that is the most ridiculous thing that I've ever heard!
I should be able to just ask my WH to stop seeing OW, go to MC, and live happily ever after.

Then, the more I read, I came to understand that A's are like addictions. People in general, don't like to
give up their addiction, and WS's esp. WW's don't like to give up their romantic fantasy.
WS's need a bomb to bring them back to the reality of how immoral their behaviour is.
I was also brought back to that reality, it cleared my fog too. I didn't want people to know of my WH's A,
I was ashamed, and I thought that his actions were a reflection on me, and my lousy ability to be a wife.

Quote
Pretty much all my friends were on board with the exposure, but none of them think that it can possibly lead to saving the marriage.
Think about your options Jeff.
You could say nothing, and WW would continue to see OM.
The A could die on it's own or the OM could dump your WW. No one but the three of you would know.
WW would not learn that there are consequences to betrayal in M, and you would be left
not ever feeling safe in your M. Adultery cannot and should not be swept under the rug.

You could plead and beg for your WW to come back, this would likely have no effect considering the addiction aspect of OM.
Should you have to plead and beg for your spouse to give up a third person in the M? I don't think so.
I know myself, I didn't want to be a sympathy case, I wanted to be the best choice.

The best chance that you have to restore your M, is to first end the A,
all the while showing WW that you are the best choice.

And, it may not save your M. You can only control your half of this, she has control over her half.

So, all you can do now, is to continue to show her that you are still here, and that you are the best choice.
Stand your ground against accepting adultery,(Stick part of Plan A) meet EN's as best as you can, and avoid LB's,(Carrot part of Plan A).

There was a lot that I didn't understand either as I was going through this, and boy did I question myself about what I was doing.

You're doing great, we all know how hard this is. smile

Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 01:28 PM
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I just feel like at soon as I confronted her, she was already gone. It was, "we don't have a marriage to fix, I want out. I'm done. I want a divorce." Immediately upon being confronted.


What she wanted was for you to be kept in the dark while she continued to carry on the A. Once you found out, you began to take the fun out of her A, so she wanted you out of the pic b/c she thought the "fun" of the A would get better again.

But, as she is finding out, the more folks who know about her A the uglier the A got.

Now she is trying to convince those who are important to her that the A never happened... That YOU are nuts, and she is a victim. That's HER plan.

You have a different one.

One that is based in reality and truth.

She may continue to lie about what happen and never give you a chance to recover your M, but then you wouldn't want a wife who couldn't repent of the things she's done, would you?

I have noticed she hasn't blocked your e-mails. She complained when you were ignoring her....in the middle of exposure. She's THREATENED to stop talking to you, but hasn't told you to stop talking to her.

So, just keep doing working your plan.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 01:30 PM
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Forwarded her some pictures my parents sent me of our dog playing outside, and then of him taking a nap afterwards. Should I expect a response of, "You know I'm keeping him, right?"


Space out your messages to her a little more.

At this point, ANY reply you receive is a good thing.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 01:35 PM
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Think about your options Jeff.
You could say nothing, and WW would continue to see OM.
The A could die on it's own or the OM could dump your WW. No one but the three of you would know.


I think a more likelier senario would have been Jeff did nothing but try to reason w/ WW until he lost all love her and gave up.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 01:39 PM
Originally Posted by Marshmallow
Quote
Think about your options Jeff.
You could say nothing, and WW would continue to see OM.
The A could die on it's own or the OM could dump your WW. No one but the three of you would know.


I think a more likelier senario would have been Jeff did nothing but try to reason w/ WW until he lost all love her and gave up.

I think that's realistically what was happening. As she wavered between saying she wanted a divorce, our marriage wasn't worth saving, the OM was so wonderful and amazing her best friend AND she wanted to save our marriage, she wanted to live with me again, she wanted a family with me some day, she loves me so much. Getting my hopes up SO high when she would have "good" days, and then having them smashed back down a day or two later was destroying me.

At least this way I'll either save my marriage or I won't, without the OM hopefully there won't be any flip-flopping.
Posted By: Vittoria Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 01:51 PM
Originally Posted by Marshmallow
Quote
Think about your options Jeff.
You could say nothing, and WW would continue to see OM.
The A could die on it's own or the OM could dump your WW. No one but the three of you would know.


I think a more likelier senario would have been Jeff did nothing but try to reason w/ WW until he lost all love her and gave up.
I completely agree, I think that would have been the scenario here.
I was pointing out other scenarios of not using MB against adultery.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 03:10 PM
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Should I expect a response of, "You know I'm keeping him, right?"


Hey Gurka - Yes, if you know that she knows how much you love the dog, she will most likely say something like this.

Expect it... anything she can do to lash out at you and "hurt" you will be her motivation for a while.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 03:18 PM
I'm more expecting no response after her last email of "plan on the next time you talk to me it being in front of a lawyer or a judge."
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 03:51 PM
Hey Gurka,

Well, I think she will contact you... Remember,she did say that she wasn't going to "speak" with you again after "all of this"...

Just relax and try not to worry about it... she's following the WS script to the letter!

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 04:05 PM
Sigh, the waiting is the hardest part. Waiting to see if my old wife comes out all of this mess. I love her so much. It'd be easy to just walk away if I didn't. frown
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 04:19 PM
It hasn't even been two weeks yet, though I know it probably feels like two years for you...

For better or worse... this is one of those "worse" times. The investigation hasn't even been going on for a week yet and it will probably go on through next week, then it will take a day or so for the investigating officers to write up their findings...

Then I suspect that you'll start to see some positive changes.

Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 04:39 PM
Originally Posted by RIF
It hasn't even been two weeks yet, though I know it probably feels like two years for you...

For better or worse... this is one of those "worse" times. The investigation hasn't even been going on for a week yet and it will probably go on through next week, then it will take a day or so for the investigating officers to write up their findings...

Then I suspect that you'll start to see some positive changes.

You'll start to see some positive changes after NC w/ OM. The first 2-3 weeks are the worst. If she gets through that without contacting OM, then you'll start seeing another improvement at about the 2 month timeframe, and after 6 months withdrawal should be fully complete and she will hate the thought of OM. The key is getting NC w/ OM. If they just go further underground with their "affair phones," then things will get worse.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 04:43 PM
Well, just got this from my wife in response to the dog pictures:


Stop writing me. We are not friends and this is not going to work out for you. Your little plan didn't work, and I am never going to forgive you for what you put me through. If you keep writing me I will just block your email, and then you won't be able to reach me for the important stuff. I am no longer going to Fort Polk, and I will not see you alone when you come up here, so good luck with all your scheming and planning.

I don't want to see pictures of Apollo, he is your dog now, not mine
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 04:52 PM
"I am never going to forgive you for what you put me through."

Grrr, sorry to make your affair so unpleasant for you.
Posted By: ouchthathurt Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 04:53 PM
Are you entitled to an update from command on the investigation?
Posted By: disgustedandsad Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 04:54 PM
Hmmm, she answered. If she really didn't want to talk to you, she wouldn't have answered.

I wonder why she told she is no longer going to Fort Polk?
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 04:56 PM
I imagine she called her branch manager and threw a fit saying she doesn't want to come to Fort Polk. Like I've said before, not being able to physically be together for all of this is a big deal. If we can't hold the marriage together until I get back, and then get her stationed at Fort Polk, we have no chance.
Posted By: believer Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 04:56 PM
My money is on this not going on and on, because OM is going to protect himself. He will toss your wife and suddenly "see the light" and scramble to save his marriage.

If you email your wife she is going to threaten to block you. If you don't email her, she will accuse you of ignoring her. She is very angry and that shows that your plan is working.

Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 04:56 PM
And no, I'm not entitled to know the command's findings at all. It's possible they've already dismissed everything.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 05:00 PM
Thinking:

"I know you're angry and hurt right now. I'm more than your friend, I'm your husband, and I'm still fighting for our marriage. I know you want to know that I'm ok, that's why I've been writing you. Apollo is our dog, and I'm sure he misses you as much as he misses me."
Posted By: ouchthathurt Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 05:05 PM
Dismissed? Already? That doesn't sound like much of an investigation. Considering they were already investigated once at OCS. Weren't they ordered not to fraternize then?
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 05:07 PM
Yeah. But the adultery investigations I've seen conducted in my unit back at Fort Polk were... less than thorough. Wife calls, presents tons of evidence of soldier cohabitating with another woman... Company commander calls soldier in, "Are you committing adultery?" "No sir!" "Ok, that's all, thanks." Insufficient evidence written on the report.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 05:08 PM
Quote
Your little plan didn't work, and I am never going to forgive you for what you put me through.


So says the woman that's in the process of loosing her Army career and OM! Seems like your plan is working just fine!!! hurray

Quote
If you keep writing me I will just block your email, and then you won't be able to reach me for the important stuff.


Oh, "important stuff" like checking up on you to see if you've gotten the divorce papers or signed the waiver or signed the divorce papers??? think

Quote
I am no longer going to Fort Polk,...

Yeah, I didn't like Ft. Polk much either... well, except for the fishing at Toledo Bend and Sam Rayburn!!! cool

Quote
and I will not see you alone when you come up here, so good luck with all your scheming and planning.


Boo Hoo... guess she's expecting you to come crawling to Ft. Huachuca on your hands and knees, begging for her to "take you back"!!! Sounds like she's already gotten everything figured out as to exactly what you'll do Gurka! rotflmao

Quote
I don't want to see pictures of Apollo, he is your dog now, not mine


Great! Now you don't have to worry about her taking the dog!!! dance2

Yep, and all this after she said that she was "NEVER" going to speak with you again! MrRollieEyes

It's working! I suspect that the investigating officers are taking a break for the weekend and she's had lots of time to sit around and think about her situation with the OM... She knows that she's in deep trouble no matter what happens, and she's lashing out at YOU because you've spoiled all of her fun and excitement.

Hang in there Gerka!

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 05:10 PM
What did you think of the response I wrote above RIF? Or is this a no-response situation?
Posted By: ouchthathurt Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 05:24 PM
I wouldn't respond with that. As rif said. She will be emailing you constantly to find out if you got the papers and when are you going to sign them. Just tell her that you have them and your thinking about it. And you simply never sign them. You insure a constant stream of communication because of that. But don't send her weak sounding stuff about the dog.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 05:28 PM
K, got it.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 05:33 PM
Quote
It's possible they've already dismissed everything.


Hey Gurka - We've gone over the fact that your mind will almost ALWAYS think of the WORST situation or outcome... You've got to try and not dwell on those type of thoughts!

My gut is telling from the e-mails that you've shared with us that your W knows that the investigation is going on. When I conducted my art. 32 investigations, I interviewed the defendant first, then the other witnesss, then the defendat again to "clarify" any issues that came back up.

The investigating officer has a pretty wide lattitude on what order they interview people, so you could even interview the other witnesses first, then the defendant... either way, this is usually where the defendant gets caught lying... the stories just don't match up, or they match up "too well" and the investigating officer will start asking more questions to make sure that the defendant hasn't been discussing the case with anyone else except for their legal counsel if they have one.

Even if your W calls and says something along the lines of "Guess what Gurka? The investigation didn't proove a thing so you lose, I win!!!" It will be a last desparate effort to throw you off balance and hurt you.

You are correct in that the commander does NOT have to tell you the results of the investigation... but remember, the investigation isn't the end of the story.

The commander will take the findings and recommendations from the investigation and will then have to decide what punishment is warranted. I'm pretty sure that this will happen at the General Officer level... (CG of Ft. Huachuca and CG of Ft. Sill)... Again, you most likely won't find out what the punishment is, but you will DEFINITELY see the results!

Look for what happens to your W and OM AFTER they finish their basic course... Your W needs that TS/SCI for her job, right? Well, if she doesn't get it, you'll know why!

Again, try not to worry about things that you can't control...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: aussieswife Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 05:36 PM
Gerka I was a WW.

All your ww can think of right now is "me" followed by ,, oh surprise... me again and then after that me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me .......... pages of it.

Sadly this is normal for where she is at right now.

As for me back then .... guess what? Did you know MY husband was responsible for it ALL as well!! Yep what a rotter. rant2 of course I did use far stronger wording than rotter blush

So you see what you are hearing... getting in your text ,,, seeing in her replies is very much from the WS manual. Just variations on the same theme of selfishness. You can't teach her.. you can't reach her ... she will need to work this out herself.

when she hits bottom ... that's when MB really can come into its own.

Listen to the guys & gals here advising you ,,, I would only add that if you can when she hits bottom get Dr Harley involved.

We recovered... I prefer to think we have a new marriage rather than a fixed one .. I killed the old one to my shame. But it CAN work and it will hurt to go through the work to get there... But it can be done. The two of you will need to commit to it though. Dr Harley or one of his team can help there I feel

I wish you all the best ... and of course take care of yourself.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 05:36 PM
You can't even start the MI basic course without a TS.
Posted By: ouchthathurt Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 05:41 PM
Wasn't there an investigation already about them? I thought I read it somewhere.
Posted By: ouchthathurt Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 05:42 PM
If she can't get her TS. Supply officer or Admin is likely.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 05:43 PM
"I know you're angry and hurt right now. I'm more than your friend, I'm your husband, and I'm still fighting for our marriage. I know you want to know that I'm ok, that's why I've been writing you. Apollo is our dog, and I'm sure he misses you as much as he misses me."

One thing to think this, however another thing to say this to WW. Don't.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 05:44 PM
I would think that if she was disqualified for a clearance before she even started her basic course she'd likely be administratively separated from the Army. While it sounds silly, anything that is going to cause you not to get a top secret clearance is probably going to keep you from getting a secret clearance, which is a requirement to be a US Army officer of any branch.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 05:45 PM
Quote
"I know you're angry and hurt right now. I'm more than your friend, I'm your husband, and I'm still fighting for our marriage. I know you want to know that I'm ok, that's why I've been writing you. Apollo is our dog, and I'm sure he misses you as much as he misses me."


Hey Gurka - I'd let things "rest" for a bit. If you do decide to send the e-mail, I'd leave out the part about "I know you're anger"... of course she's angry, and this would probably just make her angrier. Also, and I know this hurts, but she probably doesn't really care to know if you're OK right now because all she's focused on is ME!!! ME!!! ME!!! ME!!!

Deep down, underneath all of this selfishness, I'd bet that she really DOES care about you, but for now, everything is about her.

Hey, Gurka - Listen to Aussie's Wife!!! She really knows what she's talking about and is one of the great Vets here that can give some great insight into your W's actions...

Semper Fi,

RIF

***waving & TJ*** Hey AW!!! Good to see you! Hope that man and son and son-in-law of yours are all back home now!
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 05:45 PM
Also RIF, should I expect the investigating officers to contact me at all? They have no sworn statements or anything from me other than my initial email and the evidence I've forwarded on to them.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 05:47 PM
Yeah, I really appreciate the input from aussie's wife. I won't be replying to her email.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 05:54 PM
Quote
You can't even start the MI basic course without a TS.


hee hee... she could count paper plates in the DFAC at Ft. Huachuca, you don't need a TS/SCI or even a secret clearnce for that! wink

Seriously, don't worry about the investigation, or about the "shabby" investiation at Ft. Polk...

I don't think that the investigating officer will be some Jr. CPT since the allegations are coming from a serving officer in Afghanistan. The CGs will definitely want to make an example of this.

You already told us that your buddy at Ft. Sill said that some LT's were court martialed there for misconduct... the UCMJ is meant to maintain order and discipline in the military. There's nothing worse than disrupting a service member's focus with this cr*p and this isn't some little "fling" that's not hurting anyone...

Again, try not to think about "what if"... especially "What if they both get off without any punishment".

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 05:58 PM
Quote
Also RIF, should I expect the investigating officers to contact me at all?


Perhaps... the two cases that I investigated did not involve the spouse... just people that were downrange.

If they do contact you, try to take the emotion out of you statement and focus on the facts. Tell them who, what, when, where, and how long, and reference the phone logs and e-mails that you provided. You might want to have a JAG officer go over it with you before you send it in too...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 06:01 PM
It seems strange that they would conduct an investigation without contacting me for a sworn statement. It seems like a lot of what I could tell them would tie things together for them and make it easier to catch them lying.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 06:12 PM
I should have added that the spouses for both of my investigations didn't have a clue about what was going on since all of the parties under investigation were all assiged to A-Stan.

If one of the spouses had initiated the complaint, and I were the invetigating officer, I definitely would have contacted them for an interview.

Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/25/10 08:32 PM
Quote
Stop writing me. We are not friends and this is not going to work out for you. Your little plan didn't work, and I am never going to forgive you for what you put me through. If you keep writing me I will just block your email, and then you won't be able to reach me for the important stuff. I am no longer going to Fort Polk, and I will not see you alone when you come up here, so good luck with all your scheming and planning.


She's found this thread.

Perhaps you can get advice off-MB from RIF.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 02:09 AM
Mrs. Gerkaguards,

You are very young. And you have done something terrible....something that you WILL regret.

Your thinking is very VERY faulty at this time. And your emotions cannot be trusted. You must begin to act w/ integrity. Or you may never recover from this.

You have no Biblical right to divorce your husband. However, your BH has every right to divorce you.

Right now, you have deluded yourself into thinking there is something special about you...something about you that is better than your BH b/c you don't want him, but he still wants you.

Let me disspell you of that notion right now. It is b/c of the man that your BH is, that he is willing to TRY to recover your M. It is not b/c of the woman you are. Or b/c of the special charms you think you possess.

If you choose to walk away from your marriage, Gerk will come to realize that he did not marry a woman of good character. His feelings for you WILL change. And he will meet another who is worthy of him for he will choose wiser.

You, OTOH, stand at a crossroad. You can be a big girl, take responsibilty for the wrong you have done, and attempt to repair the terrible pain you have caused the man that you PROMISED to love forever....or you can choose the road of self deception.

My advice to you is this...do NOT make any life altering decisions for at least 6 months.

This crossroad needs your full attention w/ calm emotions.

Good luck to you.
Posted By: ouchthathurt Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 02:22 AM
I don't think she found this thread. She is talking of plans they had b4 it fell apart.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 02:23 AM
I hope she didn't find it. But, just in case she has, the letter is there for her.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 02:55 AM
Quote
She's found this thread.


???????

I don't think she's found this thread. Even if she has found it, there's nothing that she would be able to use in her defense. Think about it... how's it going to sound if she brings up a bunch of printouts from a MARRIAGE BUILDERs discussion forum that deals with infdelity?

The investigating officer would want to see actul printouts from this thread and he would quicky see that Gurka is trying to SAVE the M, not 'play' games as Mrs. Gurka is suggesting.

Semper Fi,

RIF

Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 03:01 AM
I wasn't concerned w/ the investigation. I agree w/ what you said.

My concern is that if she is reading here, our advice to Gerk on how to save his marriage will not be effective.

That's why I suggested that maybe he ought to seek private advice from you.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 03:25 AM
From my limited experience here, young, immature WW's that find their BH's thread just can't refrain from posting to it. One in particular that sticks in my memory is Dogfood. His WW and her friend had to post to it. The feel a need to defend themselves and tell us MBers that "our plan won't work," and educate us on how "messed up" we are. I don't think she's found this thread, but I do believe she thinks he is implementing some "plan." I could be wrong.

In any case my advice to Gerka is to limit his communication to once every ~3-4 days, and keep it small and conversational. I want her to expect Gerka to email at certain intervals so that it's something she can expect (and hopefully in the future look forward to), but not be enough that it becomes a love-busting "annoying behavior." Just let her know you haven't forgotten about her, so if she does go into NC w/ OM, you are there to meet her needs. Avoid responding to any complaint, accusation, etc. Only respond to her if she shows a glimpse of her non-wayward self. Remember, plan A your wife, and plan B your WW. Avoid getting provoked by your WS and love busting. This is a tricky dance, and you need to get the steps right, but I think you have a chance at pulling it off. Just be patient. You can do this.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 03:26 AM
Typically, WS believe that a BS's exposure was for revenge. To punish them.

She seems to understand that Gerk has a plan to win her back. "Your little plan didn't work" "so good luck with all your scheming and planning"

That to me seems very unusual.

It is also striking that after it was just pointed out that she did not tell him to stop writing her she does just that.

After it was just pointed out that she hasn't blocked him from her email, she threatens to.

I could be wrong. I hope I am.



Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 03:28 AM
Quote
From my limited experience here, young, immature WW's that find their BH's thread just can't refrain from posting to it.


But what if she is afraid what she posts may be used against her?
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 03:49 AM
Originally Posted by Marshmallow
Quote
From my limited experience here, young, immature WW's that find their BH's thread just can't refrain from posting to it.


But what if she is afraid what she posts may be used against her?

She keeps sending nasty emails to Gerka. As long as she does not admit to adultery, I don't think she thinks she can be touched.

I think she would also reference that she found his little thread on MB and rip his plan apart, using exact verbiage from some of the things we have said.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 04:09 AM
I still can't get passed her understanding Jeff has a plan to win her back.

Most of the time BS have to keep repeating themselves over and over again that exposure was to save the M.

But, you make good points, Jim, as always.

Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 04:18 AM
I think she was talking about my "little plan" to expose the affair to everyone, including her CoC. I think she's way too into herself, what a victim she is, and how angry and hurt she is to even consider reading the mariage builder's forum.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 04:21 AM
So you guys are saying that every 4 days I should continue to send a light, conversational email?
Posted By: Just Learning Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 05:50 AM
Gerka,

Heck ya!!! You wouldn't want to send that information to someone who cared would you? laugh You know I am kidding. But, really she may block your email, but frankly I would guess it will be unblocked as soon as the hammer starts to fall.

JL
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 08:04 AM
Quote
So you guys are saying that every 4 days I should continue to send a light, conversational email?


Sounds like a good plan... but be prepared for her to "block" you.

I agree with JL, that once the investigation is over and punishment is handed out, that she will most likely 'un-block' you because she will start pushing the Divorce papers stuff again... otherwise, how is she going to see how "effective" her efforts to hurt you are doing?

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 08:38 AM
Thinking I should just hold off until I get her package with t-shirts and divorce papers. At that point I can thank her for the t-shirts and let her know that I won't be making any life-altering decisions until I return from Afghanistan.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 08:41 AM
Also, whoever recommended the Jaron song "Praying for you" is a genius. Great song. I'm not the praying type, but it still makes me smile a little.

Also the Jack Ingram song "A little bit."
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 09:57 AM
Quote
Thinking I should just hold off until I get her package with t-shirts and divorce papers. At that point I can thank her for the t-shirts and let her know that I won't be making any life-altering decisions until I return from Afghanistan.


It used to take about 10-14 days to get a package from TX to Afghanistan... so it's probably about the same time from Arizona. I'd expect an e-mail from her around 10-14 days after she mailed the package... She's going to want to know if you got the D-papers.

...So I think that waiting is a good plan... that way SHE is the one thinking about how 'perfect' everything will be once you sign the D-paperwork.

Good answer on not making any "life altering" decisions... you're not using the D-word, and you're not trying to "talk her out of it" either. Just a clear statement of fact on your intentions.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 12:24 PM
That's fine, but I want you to know that she was never going to block your email. She was going to say she blocked it, but she wasn't going to ever do it. Then at some point you would have found out she wasn't blocking at when she decided to lash out at you after one. Again, she's going to say anything she possibly can to hurt and demoralize you right now for interfering with her affair. Like the dog thing. In the heat of the moment, she said she was going to take the dog. Then when you forwarded the pictures, she forgot she said that and just called it "your dog." She had no intention of taking the dog. She was just trying to hurt you.

I also think that she probably can't wait to read your email and respond to it in a hurtful way. It seems like she's caught up in the drama.
Posted By: ouchthathurt Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 12:38 PM
I would not tell her that you got the papers, I would not mention them at all, unless its an acknowledgment that you received them. When she asks you if you will sign them, tell her you are thinking about it. And just never bring it up in conversation again. This way she keeps in contact with you. And doesn't shut you off thinking that you will wait until you get home.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 01:03 PM
Yeah, I know she wasn't ever really going to block my emails. If only for the fact that she thinks there are "important things" that may need to be sent.

Like I said, I'll wait for the package to get here before I write her again, with a sincere apology for the shirts (you military types know the value of underarmour heat gear t-shirts.)
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 01:39 PM
Well, it would figure that the fasting [censored] mail I ever get in Afghanistan are my divorce papers and some t-shirts. Sent April 19th, arrived April 26th.

The papers seem legit. Front page is a waver of my rights under SCRA. Time filed is 1:01pm, which would actually be just before OMW was notified of the affair.

She didn't even put the right address on my information. And according to how she filled it out, she wants to KEEP my name.

Also, I'm no lawyer, but it's clear that she's already violated the preliminary injunction issued by the court. It says on the first page of the injunction that you will not remove or cause to be removed the other party from any existing insurance coverage, including automobile coverage.

I guess I'll be going to see the SJA tomorrow.

Comments, ideas, suggestions at this point?
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 01:53 PM
Gerka,

When was your marriage good and when was she faithful? How were things just before you deployed?

My concern with your situation is your history. There has been a lot of separation, infidelity from the start, and not a whole lot there to build on in terms of good history.

The nature of the beast with a deployment is that you're gone so "out of sight out of mind."

When do you rotate home so you can Plan A in person?

I know you haven't been thrilled with my advice. Doesn't mean I don't want what is best for you.

Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 01:54 PM
Hey Gurka,

I don't have any experience with D-papers... but I would stick with the plan and thank her for the t-shirts and not even mention the D-papers.

Let her come back to you and ask you if you got them... once she asks, you could say something along the lines of:

"Oh, yes, I got them, but I'm not making any important decisions until I return home from Afghanistan. Love you - Gurka"


Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 01:57 PM
Thank her for the shirts now, or wait ?
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 01:58 PM
Wait a few days.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 02:08 PM
Hey Gurka - It only took 8 days... "normal" delivery time is 10-14 days... so I would wait a few days before replying.

...say around Day 11 or Day 12 (so wait 3-4 days)...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 02:24 PM
Roger that. I'll jump on a convoy to go see an SJA tomorrow.

Even I can tell she's already repeatedly violated the temporary injunction automatically filed by the court. She changed our car insurance, which is specifically prohibited, placing her in contempt of court.
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 02:26 PM
Quote
Also, I'm no lawyer, but it's clear that she's already violated the preliminary injunction issued by the court. It says on the first page of the injunction that you will not remove or cause to be removed the other party from any existing insurance coverage, including automobile coverage.


Gerka, what she probably sent you was an original petition with the standard TRO language in it. This is what she is ASKING for. A hearing has to be held and the Judge has to GRANT her request for the TRO/injunction. That would be in the form of an order. Was there an order included signed by the Judge? If not, the TRO/injunction is not in effect. She would have had to ask for an "ex-parte" hearing, which means the Judge hears it without you present.

Additionally, until you "Answer" her petition, you are not yet a party. You know what to do with the waiver, right?

Did SHE send you the divorce paperwork? Did it come from an attorney? There are rules for service of process and I don't think if you have been properly served if she's the one that sent them to you. I'm not sure how that works when you are in the service out of the country, but I'm pretty sure she can't be the one that serves you directly. It has to be by a disinterested 3rd party and sometimes by special permission from the court. I wouldn't acknowledge receipt of the papers in any way.
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 02:26 PM
Gerka,

Divorce papers are no joke and aren't to be taken lightly. As I said, everyone can continue to blow sunshine your way, but the reality is that she is emotionally divorced from you and doesn't care about you one bit.

You now have papers in hand. True, you're protected by law against having this done while you're deployed, but the reality is that this is your homecoming.

It is exactly what I got upon my return. She's just giving you the courtesy of letting you know it's coming instead of blindsiding you with it when you return fat, dumb, and happy.

WW'es are amonst the most evil and cruel people you've ever encountered. Mine had me believing she sent me a care package while I was in the AOR. I checked my mail daily. I stopped in after ever mission I was involved in to see if the package arrived. I ran a trace on the package at the start of the third week that it hadn't arrived. I called her and asked about it and she told me she sent it.

The truth? It was never sent. There was no package. It was some sort of sick game she was playing. You know how important mail from home is. You know how much it boosts morale.

I'm the lonely voice of reality on your thread.

It's time to get your legal ducks in order. Going into a divorce with "hope" is the biggest recipe for disaster for you that you can follow.

You could instead take advantage of her desire to end things and fashion an agreement favorable to you.

Your enemy has just fired a salvo your way. Sitting in your foxhole and hoping she stops firing isn't a plan.

The only thing that doesn't make your situation a 5 alarm fire is the fact that you don't have kids. But this is not a time to sit and think or hope.

Your first step to end the affair through exposure is a big step, but it's time to lawyer up and be prepared to greet her with a legal salvo of your own. Texas may have adultery laws that come into play in your situation. There may also have alienation of affection laws which will allow you to sue the OM.

But you need to start hunting for lawyers to talk to upon your return.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 02:47 PM
These papers mean nothing while I'm in Afghanistan. It says so right on the front page. She filled them out, filed them and mailed them herself. They are signed by a judge and given a case number. It specifically says that the temporary injunction applies to the person who files the papers the minute they file them.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 02:57 PM
Jim, I have to laugh at how good you are at understanding angry women.

Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 02:58 PM
Quote
WW'es are amonst the most evil and cruel people you've ever encountered.


HelpTLD - Please explain just how this sentence helps Gurka?

Yes, it's now time for Gurka to start looking at other options: consult with legal counsel, protect assets, etc... And I have clearly stated that I do NOT have personal knowledg of D-papers or what to do with them...

You'll notice that my advice is limited to my personal experiences. I'm positive that YOU have some great informaion to pass on to Gurka...

However, if you continue to make disrespectful, personal attacks towards WW's, just to validate your own personal experiences, then I will report you for violating the TOS.

Please, try to limit your advice to factual issues that can help Gurka and leave the WW bashing alone.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 03:00 PM
I agree. She filed the paperwork the day after I exposed to her family & friends, the day I exposed to OMW. The paperwork is riddled with small errors. She immediately broke the court's injunction after filing.

Not the actions of someone thinking clearly. More the actions of someone thinking "I'll show him!"
Posted By: ouchthathurt Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 03:23 PM
I agree with rif, thank her for the shirts, and don't mention the papers. If she does. Don't tell her that you are waiting till you return. String her along by telling her you are thinking about it. No other reply. Why? Because you want her to continue to open your e-mails hoping that you are going to agree to it. This way she will keep contacting you. And you are in control of the communication. Eventually getting her off the subject and on to some LB building conversation. Just a thought.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 03:27 PM
Oh yeah, the most perplexing part of the paperwork, she wants to keep my name.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 03:28 PM
Quote
...The paperwork is riddled with small errors... Not the actions of someone thinking clearly. More the actions of someone thinking "I'll show him!"


Hey Gurka - When you talk with the JAG tomorrow, ask them if divorce filings are made available over the internet by a court or judge. If they are public, then you might want to snoop around see if you can find this judge over the internet.

Just thinking here that if your W actually spent money on a lawyer, that it must not have been a very good lawyer to allow it to go forward to a judge with ANY errors on it.

This could be a ginned up set of papers and signed by one of her buddies. And it could very well be a ligitimate set of D-papers...

The JAG can help you with this when you talk with them tomorrow.

Semper Fi,

RIF

Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 03:33 PM
It specifically says she filed the papers herself, without representation. They are legit legal papers though, I'm sure of that.
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 04:00 PM
Why did I say that about WW'es?

Because they are. Men get caught with their pants down in legal issues far too often. They keep hoping. They do what I did, which is they stay "nice" in order to keep hope alive that they can be together again by not making the divorce difficult.

The opposite happens. The person, man or woman, who comes out with the legal guns blazing tends to come off better.

Sitting and absorbing it while "hoping" will simply have Gerka end up without most of his stuff, likely paying alimony, and in real financial straights.

As a man taken to the cleaners by his ex, I feel I can offer some advice on this front. My mistakes were to sit idle on legal things and not protecting myself, my rights as a dad, or my assets.

I was too worried about reconciling and not worried enough about fighting.

My ex, which took advantage of my emotional state, used this fear of her anger against me. Any move I made to protect thigns was met with a barrage of, "if you make this ugly then you will ruin any chance of us being together again!"

So I would cower, run off, say "yes dear" and comply with her demands. Was this an evil thing for a WW to do? You make the call.

I ended up without a job, homeless, and without any form of rights to see my kids. All my fault for not waking up soon enough with the full understanding that the legal gauntlet had been dropped and that it was time for me to hire a lawyer and strike back just as hard, if not harder.

How does my statement help Gerka? So he can understand that there is a difference between the woman he envisions in his head and the reality. WW'es are evil, selfish creatures who will do anything in their power to help themselves. Things that a BH could never imagine. False charges of abuse, restraining orders, claims of illegal activities, etc are the norm with WW'es looking for an out.

The best thing for Gerka to do is to consult a lawyer and prepare to fire back legally upon his return. It's a gun he may not have to use, but one he should be prepared to use just in case.

Gerka, legal papers will be full of mistakes. They're written up by lawyers who are translating what they hear from their clients. As a perfectionist on this front, I corrected many errors made by my lawyer on papers that were filed on my behalf. Errors by her lawyer are no surprise.

She's not in contempt of anything uless there is a court order. Unless the court says, "ORDERED, both parites must��" then there is no order and no violation.

Don�t get caught up in the idea of, "she's in contempt" because of whatever. The fact is that you and I don't know the law well enough to make that call. Family law is a nebulous minefield. Some stuff means everything to a judge while other stuff falls into the bin labeled "background noise".

Call a lawyer and run your situation by him/her. That will give you a better idea of your rights. This doesn't mean you will file anything. It will simply give you a clue about your rights if you need to protect them.

But please, whatever you do, don't simply ignore these papers. Don't acknowledge them to her, but consult someone about them.
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 04:03 PM
If she goes it alone without a lawyer, then you're in luck. Get one yourself.

See PSUBIKER's thread on his situation. His WW went at it alone with little understanding of the law and she got hammered in court.

Yet she still ended up with 50/50 custody despite the false allegations against PSUB.

Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 04:07 PM
Just got an email from one of the investigators. Apparently they've been sending me emails asking for a sworn statement and they haven't been getting through.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 04:17 PM
Quote
WW'es are evil, selfish creatures who will do anything in their power to help themselves.


HelpTLD - You were warned earlier... I've reported you to the moderators for violating the TOS.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Fred_in_VA Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 04:19 PM
Gerkaguards, there is nothing in MB that says a betrayed spouse should not be prepared for the worst.

I agree with HTLD. There is nothing that says you can't work Plan A and Plan B while all the time consulting with an attorney about your rights.

Within days of my wife torpedoing our marriage I was in a lawyer's office putting together the current Separation and Property Settlement Agreement. She signed it, as did I.

There are some things I think I was too easygoing with. But in the long run, I protected myself and my assets (she had none, after all).

I think it surprised her a bit when I hired a repo company to take away her my Jeep.

There is/was a poster here who changed his name (from Barnboy, if I recall correctly) to "Doormat_No_More."

There is nothing in Marriage Builders to suggest anyone should be a doormat. In fact, the opposite is true!
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 04:19 PM
Quote
Just got an email from one of the investigators. Apparently they've been sending me emails asking for a sworn statement and they haven't been getting through.


Hooah!!!

So what rank is the investigating officer?
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 04:24 PM
Fred,

Gerk and his WW have no children or property to divide. The only thing they have is a dog, which she just said Gerk can have.

Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 04:33 PM
No one objects to Jeff getting a lawyer.

What is objectionable is how a certain poster, who Jeff has asked us to ignore, continues to disrespect Jeff's decision to try to save his M.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 04:34 PM
Originally Posted by RIF
Quote
Just got an email from one of the investigators. Apparently they've been sending me emails asking for a sworn statement and they haven't been getting through.


Hooah!!!

So what rank is the investigating officer?

CPT.

I was just looking at something. She sent me some revealing photographs from her cell phone March 28th, at about 1000 in the morning. The metadata (information that's included in every picture) shows that the photos were taken at around 2230 the night before. The phone records show that she sent the exact same number of pictures to his phone number at 0030. It's circumstantial evidence, but what do you think RIF, would it mean anything to you as an investigating officer?
Posted By: ouchthathurt Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 04:46 PM
Absolutely its evidence. Remember the investigator is going to ask her if she sent revealing photos to the other guy. If she says no. Then he will ask her to produce the photos that she sent to him at 0030. Remember, guilty until proven innocent. Its not the same as civilian court. They will look at the # of photos sent too. Correct me if I am wrong, but don't picture have a specific amount of data, pixels sent? I think this is very damning.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 04:56 PM
Sadly they were sent as picture messages and don't include the file size. If they did it would be like a fingerprint for each picture.
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 04:57 PM
Can you forward the pics to your email? The attachments on the email will show the size of the jpgs.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 05:04 PM
The pics are already in my email, and I have the pictures downloaded, that's how I was able to read the metadata. I know the size of the pictures, but I have nothing to match that up with because the phone bill doesn't show how much data was transmitted with each picture message.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 05:06 PM
Quote
The phone records show that she sent the exact same number of pictures to his phone number at 0030.


Ok, lets see if I've got his straight:

- W take photos on cell phone at 2230hrs, 27 MAR 10

- W sends __# of photos to OM at 0030hrs, 28 MAR 10

- W sends __# (same # as OM) of photos to you at 1000hrs, on 28 MAR 10

I'm assuming that a No-Contact order was not in effect when these photos were sent... but yes, this would be a huge starting point to prove an improper relationship between W and OM.

One of the first series of questions that I would have for your W would be:

1 - Do you know who's phone number this is? (OM)xxx-xxx-xxxx
2 - Do you know who's phone number this is? (Gurka)xxx-xxx-xxxx
3 - Did you send photos to(OM) phone number at ~0030hrs on 28 MAR 10?
4 - Did you send photos to (Gurka) phone number at ~1000hrs on 28 MAR 10?
5 - How many photos did you send to (OM) phone number?
6 - How many photos did you send to (Gurka) phone number?
7 - Do you wish to discuss what the photos were?

As I mentioned earlier, most people get in trouble for lying during the investigation. If you produce phone records, then the investigating officer will already know the answer to all of these questions. If your W lies about any of them, she's in big trouble.

Now, here's how I think YOU can help the investigating officer. State everything in a factual manner and leave out any emotion in your statement. If you know what the photos are, then describe them as best you can. If the photos aren't too revealing, you might want to consider including the photos as part of your sworn statement. Even if they are a bit revealing, you still might want to consider including them in your sworn statement...

The fact that the investigating officer has the phone records that show the OM's phone number and that he received photos from your W, it would be pretty easy to ask the question of "Do you wish to discuss what the photos were?"

Again, they can either tell the truth, or lie. If the investigating officer(s) have your sworn statement AND the photos, it will be pretty hard for OM or your W to lie their way out of it...

I think this is good news... If you have time, you might want to take a copy of your sworn statement to the JAG tomorrow and have them take a look at it.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Fred_in_VA Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 05:11 PM
Originally Posted by Marshmallow
No one objects to Jeff getting a lawyer.

What is objectionable is how a certain poster, who Jeff has asked us to ignore, continues to disrespect Jeff's decision to try to save his M.
Sad.

We often read how, "No one will think ill of you if you choose to divorce your wayward spouse." Why is the opposite also not true?

Even knowing what I know today and having resolved to divorce and move on --because that is the better, healthier choice for me-- I can't help but have those "what if" moments from time to time.

To me, it's not only understandable that someone would want to recover their marriage. If that wish sucks them down into the vortex of despair and insanity, I might try to counsel them to consider the alternatives, but ultimately, the choice is theirs, and so it should be.
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 05:18 PM
Report away RIF. I don't see how my statement is any different than saying that WW'es are selfish, have had their brains scrambled by aliens, or, in a less pc statement, waytards (not words I've ever agreed with or used myself).

Yes, I stand my my statement. Waywards are evil, selfish people. What else could you call someone who breaks their vows, lies, files false allegations, rewrites history, breaks the 6th commandment, manipulates, and does everything in their power to get rid of, hurt, and villify the BS?

Much worse has been said about waywards on these boards.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 05:42 PM
htld,

You said
Quote
Yes, I stand my my statement. Waywards are evil, selfish people. What else could you call someone who breaks their vows, lies, files false allegations, rewrites history, breaks the 6th commandment, manipulates, and does everything in their power to get rid of, hurt, and villify the BS?
Your responses to Gerka are getting tedious and annoying. Do you have any idea how many FWW's there are on this site? Do you have any idea how many marriages survive affairs? ALOT is the answer. Your characterization does Gerka no good. what he is trying to determine is if he breaks up the affair, will his WW become a FWW. If so, is the marriage worth proceeding with.

He is not stupid and you keep talking to him as if he were. I find that very very annoying. He is following his plan about as well as I have seen anyone do it, and that seems to annoy you. Why?


Gerka: You are doing well. The investigations are going to bring a lot of repercussions to OM and WW. This will offer you a chance and some insight into where your future lies. Keep working the plan and you will gain the data you need. You are right you definitely don't want to be making big decisions right now. But, you sure want to collect the data.

I hope your visit to the JAG tomorrow helps enlighten you about the D papers.

JL
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 05:51 PM
Originally Posted by helpthelostdads
Report away RIF. I don't see how my statement is any different than saying that WW'es are selfish, have had their brains scrambled by aliens, or, in a less pc statement, waytards (not words I've ever agreed with or used myself).

Yes, I stand my my statement. Waywards are evil, selfish people. What else could you call someone who breaks their vows, lies, files false allegations, rewrites history, breaks the 6th commandment, manipulates, and does everything in their power to get rid of, hurt, and villify the BS?

Much worse has been said about waywards on these boards.

Your post wasn't about waywards. It was about wayward wives. Big difference. That speaks of a personal issue of yours that is distracting to what Gerka is trying to do. And when it's applied in the context in which you applied it (pushing Gerka toward D) you muddy the waters of his plan. Poor posting.

The only paragraph of any real value to this thread was your last sentence:
"But please, whatever you do, don't simply ignore these papers. Don't acknowledge them to her, but consult someone about them."

Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 06:24 PM
It's going to take more than ending the affair for her to go from WW to FWW. Committment to the marriage, acknowledgent of the betrayal, acceptance of accountability, and adoption of MB prinicples are required before that F can be earned.

A FWW acknowedges how nasty and shortsighted they were during that time period. They worked hard and earned the F in front of WW. They have also been the best sources of advice here for a BH looking for guidance.

I stand by my statement about waywards. There's a big difference between them and someone seeking to save their marriage.

The Titanic has struck an iceburg (divorce papers are filed) and everyone is focused on rearranging the furninture. Time to get to the lifeboats and make a plan to survive (consult a lawyer). The hole might be patched up and the ship may not sink, but it's time to plan for the worst and hope for the best.


Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 06:33 PM
RIF,

If Jeff includes one of the pics in his sworn statement, is it possible that an investigator will hand OM the pic and ask him if WW sent it to him?
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 06:47 PM
Quote
RIF,

If Jeff includes one of the pics in his sworn statement, is it possible that an investigator will hand OM the pic and ask him if WW sent it to him?


The investigating officer is normally given several key questions to answer based on the accusation. In Gurka's case, he's alleging that OM and his W are involved in an inappropriate relationship and are committing adultery.

I don't know what the Cdr (with the assistance of a JAG officer) listed as his "directions to the investigating officer", but based on the directions, the investigating officer can pretty much make up whatever questions he or she feels will best answer the Cdr's directions.

If I were the investigating officer and had a sworn statment from Gurka along with some racy pictures that Mrs. Gurka allegedly sent to OM, then I would definitely ask the OM about the photo. I'd probably start out asking the same questions about the phone numbers, then finally ask about the photo. If OM lies about any of the questions, he's going to be in deep trouble for lying under oath.

Lying under oath is a VERY serious offense for a military officer.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: ouchthathurt Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 06:54 PM
Think for a moment. They have had months and months of phone calls and contact. This is not the matter of a few contacts. You have texts and calls late at night, while this guy is supposed to be in bed with his wife. The investigators are going to look at this and ask themselves. "How many wives are going to be OK with their husbands talking and texting to another woman all evening. Gurka can also testify to the fact that the OMs wife gave him the phone number of his WW secret phone. The investigators will ask her if they can see the phone records for it. Gurka there is a mountain of evidence of an improper relationship if no adultery. The more info to sift through the more chances of them slipping up with a lie.
Posted By: coachswife Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 06:56 PM
The OP was correct- all your WW is thinking about here is herself. Do not be surprised by anything she may do or say. When I was wayward I said alot of swful stuff too. What's hilarious to me is that I thought I was original until I read that all waywards say the same things!

She's an addict now- and the OM is her drug of choice. I don't know much about the military and what else is going on in your post- but I think you're doing a great job.
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 07:12 PM
All this stuff about what may or may not happen in the course of the investigation and the subsequent questioning is the equivalent of trying to solve an algebra equation by chewing bubble gum. It's stuff out of your control.

Focus on what you can do. What info can you provide that that will help the investigators?

What can you do for you out there?

Focus on that stuff.

You have no control over your WW's actions, thought process, or what may or may not happen during the investigation.

Thinking of that stuff can consume you and it will get you nowhere other than distracted and depressed.

Please take care of yourself. It's all you can focus no right now.
Posted By: Arpeggi Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 07:13 PM
There's good advice coming from a lot of directions, but I completely agree with HTLD. Why on earth does he need to be "reported" for saying WW's are evil and selfish?

They are! So are WHs, but Dr. Harley himself has acknowledged that WWs are far more difficult to recover. They are a different breed than WHs.

And a "good" husband (like I tried to be), who is confused about caring for, listening to, and respecting the wife he used to have, runs the extreme risk of getting hit by a legal freight train.

MelodyLane could explain this a lot better than I could...

But I don't see why he is being reported. He's right, and Gerkaguards would be wise to listen to him at this point.

Good luck, GG. Keep doing the right thing so you can keep your head held high. She is going to self-destruct if she continues down this path.

IMHO, you should divorce, and fight back (fairly) to get a good deal. Don't let her walk away with more than she deserves.

You would be AMAZED at how many WONDERFUL women there are out there who would love and support you, and make you their world. Doesn't that sound nice? Guess what? That's the kind of woman you deserve! And there are PLENTY of them out there.

You have no children. You are young and have a long life ahead of you. Do you want to do the hard work of rebuilding and restoring trust / marriage with a wife who could do this to you again?

I was in your shoes, and I severed. It hurt like heck at the time, but I had to do it to preserve my self-respect. Guess what? After I healed, I met someone else... Now I have the most loving, caring, respectful, HONEST woman in my life. That, my friend, is what you deserve too.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 07:31 PM
Hey Gurka,

It's 2230 here and I need to get some sleep.... and it's 2400 there!

Try and get some rest and let us know how your JAG appointment goes tomorrow.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 07:50 PM
sigh

Quote
IMHO, you should divorce , and fight back (fairly) to get a good deal. Don't let her walk away with more than she deserves.


Gerk and his WW have no children or property to divide. The only thing they have is a dog, which she just said Gerk can have.

Quote
You would be AMAZED at how many WONDERFUL women there are out there who would love and support you, and make you their world. Doesn't that sound nice? Guess what? That's the kind of woman you deserve! And there are PLENTY of them out there.


Gerk would not be amazed that there are plenty of women out there. He's had more than his share of women prior to marriage.

He's not someone who believes he will never get another woman if his M ends.









Posted By: Breezemb Re: WW waffling between us - 04/26/10 08:08 PM
Yes, we are paying attention to this thread.

We have seen no violations of TOS that require editing yet. Feel free to email me if you have questions.

Let's ALL remember to keep our posts focused on helping this poster.

Carry on.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/27/10 01:33 AM
Gerka,

I'm sorry about the D papers. I know that has to sting. But honestly, you thought these were coming anyway. Don't let them deter you from your plan that you are executing. Again, these papers are worthless. Go see your lawyer there first, but if it makes you feel better, go ahead and wipe your @ss with those papers. And here is what you do when your WW asks you about them.

WW: Did you get the papers?

You: Yes.

WW: Are you going to sign the waiver?

You: No.

WW: You controlling *%&*#@*&*##@*&#@*&#@*&@*@#*&@**@#&!

You: (crickets chirping)

You don't owe her any explanation and you don't need to get involved in any relationship talk or argument. Don't let her bait you. Just let the investigation take its course and let NC w/ OM have its effect. It's going to do one of two things. She's either going to reach out to you again, or she's going to go out to the bars and run her number up from 30 to 50 in short order, and she'll get herself in even more trouble. She is not your responsibility. She needs to learn her actions have consequences the hard way. Anyone can be a good significant other when times are good. It's when times are bad that your true character is revealed. We'll see if she can pull herself through this or we'll see if you dodged a bullet by having her show her true stripes before you had any children or shared assets with her. Either way, you'll win.

Right now, just keep your focus where it should be, staying safe and getting yourself home. My prayers go out to you in this difficult time.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/27/10 04:21 AM
Good morning Gurka!

Hope you got some rest last night.... Please let us know how the JAG appointment went today.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/27/10 04:28 AM
Not going to make it out to JAG for a couple days. Roads are going black due to Afghan victory day, and mujahadeen day.

I've written up my sworn statement RIF, I was wondering if you could look over it for me to see if it fits what you would want as an investigating officer.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/27/10 05:02 AM
***Standing By***

Ping me and I'll send you my AKO e-mail offline...

Let me know when you get this and I'll delete my e-mail address from here...
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/27/10 05:29 AM
Got it, I'll shoot it out as soon as our NIPR connectivity returns...
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/27/10 05:43 AM
Our NIPR was acting goofy yesterday for some reason... must be either dust, or solar activity messing up the sat-shots for our dishes.

I've got a meeting in a few minutes and will check back here in an hour or so.

Sorry to hear that the roads are black... I was located near Camp Eggers in 08 and by the time I left, the roads were black at least 3-4 days a week...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/27/10 05:48 AM
It's in your mailbox.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/27/10 05:50 AM
Also just noticed that she spent $30 of the money I put in her account on a new york times subscription. Weird.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/27/10 05:54 AM
got it! I'm off to my meeting...
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/27/10 09:16 AM
Afternoon Gurka,

Your SS is right on target!!! I'd fire it off to both Cmd's so each investigating officer will have the same info.


Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/27/10 11:36 AM
Got the SS out to him. Now I'm concerned that I've heard from one of them and not the other... unless they're sharing and working together. I felt that the questions he put in the SS were applicable for both parties...
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/27/10 12:00 PM
Hey Gurka - Can you ask your Cdr to send it to the Cdr's of the respective installations (Ft. Sill & Ft. Huachuca)?

I wouldn't worry too much about either of the investigations... the important thing now is that they have started, and THAT is what will help bring a swift end to the A.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/27/10 12:12 PM
Yeah, I'll send it to my BN Commander and ask him to send it on to Fort Huachuca.
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: WW waffling between us - 04/27/10 01:39 PM
Wish y'all would speak English. J/K!! Gerk, you're so fortunate to have RIF working with you on this.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/27/10 01:45 PM
Yeah he's been very helpful.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/27/10 02:16 PM
Sworn statement sent on to my BN commander, he sent it on to the other two.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/27/10 02:33 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
Sworn statement sent on to my BN commander, he sent it on to the other two.

Brace yourself for some fireworks once she discovers all that you have testified to.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/27/10 02:43 PM
cool Hooah! cool
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: WW waffling between us - 04/27/10 05:04 PM
Gurka,

You could go crazy with this stuff consuming you. I remember constantly checking the cell phone records, her internet pages, bank activity, etc.

It can become an obsession. I know its very hard, but you can't control any of what she does and you will only hurt yourself by spending so much time spying.

I'm not recommending you don�t do it, but merely giving you a heads up that it can become both painful and obsessive. Again, I've been there and I know it is easier said than done.

At your low points, simply tell yourself, "This too shall pass."

Keep the faith.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/27/10 05:18 PM
She has a new bank account that she uses, as well as a new cell phone. I look at my bank and cell phone stuff every couple of days.

Admittedly this situation occupies my thoughts more often than not, but I don't feel like I'm obsessed.

I seriously doubt my wife will ever overcome her stubbornness and pride and be able to say, "Yeah, I did all of these terrible things, they were wrong, and I'm sorry." I think it's much more her style to simply run away.
Posted By: AnnaBelleRose Re: WW waffling between us - 04/27/10 05:20 PM
My H seems to be the same way, Gerka... instead of toughing out the hard times, he'd rather throw it all away, go the "easy route." Waywards, I will not understand them....
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/27/10 05:25 PM
Quote
I seriously doubt my wife will ever overcome her stubbornness and pride and be able to say, "Yeah, I did all of these terrible things, they were wrong, and I'm sorry." I think it's much more her style to simply run away.


Funny how often a person will drop THAT style when they hit bottom.

But, time will tell.


Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/27/10 05:46 PM
Quote
I seriously doubt my wife will ever overcome her stubbornness and pride and be able to say, "Yeah, I did all of these terrible things, they were wrong, and I'm sorry." I think it's much more her style to simply run away.


Hey Gurka,

If your W were to make her decision today, I agree 100% with your statement. However, give the investigation(s) time to work and the A to end... THEN re-evaluate.

The MB plan doesn't recommend that the BS continue taking the WS's abuse indefinitely. You're still at the first step.

Exposure will most definitely end the A... and unless the OM completely dumps his family, he will most likely never want to speak with your W again.

Once the investigation(s) are over and punishment is delt out, this will be your window of opportunity to really Plan-A your W. Hopefully, you can both be together while doing this.

It will take some time for your W to "get over" the OM, but eventually, with NC, she will.

At some point, you will have to decide whether or not you are willing to continue with your Plan-A, or move on to Plan-B. By executing a good Plan-A, you will leave your W with "good" memories of you, and hopefully, at some point, she will realize what she's missing.

For now, try to stay focused on your mission, and try not to "what if" the future... I know it's hard, but as the others have said, it will just drive you bonkers!

Hopefully the roads will clear tomorrow and you can go see the JAG...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/27/10 06:08 PM
Well, like I've said, she's stationed at Huachuca and I'm at Polk. So I can take leave to go see her when I get back, if she wants to see me. If not, we'll never have the time together to give things a chance.
Posted By: ouchthathurt Re: WW waffling between us - 04/27/10 06:27 PM
What will help the fog to clear, is an investigating officer sitting in front of her reading the allegations against her. Then the questioning. She will call you and want to ask you everything you put into your statement.....everything. Your simple response to her will be.....everything. Their (OM and her) romance will die a quick death.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: WW waffling between us - 04/27/10 09:06 PM
Gerka,

I think the term RIF was trying to give you now that you have sent off the SS is...INCOMING! laugh You can bet your email will "warm" up soon.

It will be all your fault.

You are a mean mean man.
You will be a loser.
You will be a liar.
You will be some many things you didn't know a human could be.

But, when you hear it just smile and be cool

You are doing things the way they should be done and she is NOT!

Have faith in that. When the smoke clears you will have decisions to make and I think you will then have a clearer picture of what and who you are dealing with. You will KNOW the right action to take, but you will also know that you did all you could.

Hang in there.

JL
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 03:23 AM
Morning Gurka!

Hope the roads are clear for you this morning...

Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 08:12 AM
Not going anywhere until tomorrow. I ate some poison fruit loops this morning I think. I've been sick all day. Laying in bed now with my stomach roiling.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 09:41 AM
it was probably the milk... sometimes that stuff sits out for days on end before they put it in the coolers. Its supposed to be "shelf stabilzed" but everynow and then I'd run into a bad box.

Hope you get to feeling better!!!
Posted By: TheRoad Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 10:47 AM
Bad fruit loops. Impossible! There is so much sugar and chemicals in them they may get stale but never go bad.

More like bad milk or something else is wrong.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 01:54 PM
Yeah, it probably was the milk. I'm still sick though. Ugh.
Posted By: karmasrose Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 02:06 PM
Drink a glass or two of water, see if that helps.

Then again, last time I drank bad milk I drank the water right after the milk, so I guess this is a bit late.
Posted By: now_what Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 02:27 PM
Hey Gerka,
Hang in there buddy. My hats offs to you, you're thread has really helped me alot in the exposure dept. What you did took alot of personal courage, I'm not talking about drinking the milk either, although it applies there too. I stayed away from that stuff while I was there.

I returned from Afghan in Oct 09, I was all over the place there. I am very familiar ARSIC-C, Kabul and KAF, I spent about 5 months in both areas. We did alot of PMT stuff...what a mess. From Jul04-Jul05 I was also stationed at Ft. Polk. I think I would take Kabul over Leesville any day.

I know what it's like to be in a combat zone and have hardly any support from the household. It kept me up many nights, I lost many hours of sleep. I had to divorce my W in my head to be able to cope. I wish that I knew about this site while I was there.

Stay stong, and rest knowing that you have done everything that you can possibly do at this point to save your marriage.
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 03:15 PM
Deployment had the opposite effect on me. I had no clue about what was happening at home. My experience doesn't compare to you guys. I was a pilot and stationed elsewhere, but I did have some hairy moments out there. I would cope by thinking often of home and fell asleep by pretending to be at home and in bed with my wife. My feelings grew stronger while I was deployed, which made the homecoming that much more devastating. She told me she wanted the D the day I stepped off the plane.

I did not react well at all. Devestation doesn't even begin to describe it.

BUT�..

I'm soooooo glad she's out of my life now. I'm getting remarried to a wonderful woman who is an equal to me in every respect.

Gurka, you may not have her support while you're out there. But you do have ours. If you're ok with it, perhaps we can send you a package. Mind sharing your unit address? Perhaps we can overnight you some Pepto. smile
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 03:22 PM
Quote
I think I would take Kabul over Leesville any day.


hee hee... yeah, I'd take Kabul or Baghdad over Sleezville or DeRidder any day as well!!! Other than being close to Sam Rayburn and Toledo Bend.... you can have Louisiana!

Hope you're feeling better Gurka!

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 03:48 PM
Yeah, Fort Polk is a dump. But it was going to provide my wife and I plenty of time to spend together. It didn't seem so bad when I thought about it like that.

I don't need anything here, life isn't that tough here. My biggest problem here is my marriage back in the states.

RIF, the investigating officer wanted the name of the LT that contacted OMW. He then contacted HIM for a sworn statement. Weird huh?
Posted By: ouchthathurt Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 03:54 PM
Not weird at all. As far as I know, in military NJP "here say" is admissible.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 04:01 PM
Quote
RIF, the investigating officer wanted the name of the LT that contacted OMW. He then contacted HIM for a sworn statement. Weird huh?


Hey Gurka!

Nope, it's not weird at all!! In fact, it tells me that the investigating officer is doing a VERY thorough job with the investigation and not just "asking a few questions".

An investigating officer is given the basic facts of the case and guidance from the Cdr as to what violations of the UCMJ the suspected service member has violated.

As the investigation progresses, the investigating officer is charged with following up on ALL leads that are pertinent to the case.

I wouldn't be surprised if the investigating officer even questions the OM's wife. She has the same rights, and can refuse, but you never know...

Like we've been saying, you're in a very good place... sit back and relax and wait for the next volly from your W. I suspect that it will come pretty soon after she is questioned by HER investigating officer! wink

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Bob_Pure Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 04:06 PM
Hi Gurka

I am sorry that you need to be here.

However, seeing that you NEED to be here, nobody better than RIF to aid you. Pulled me out of hell a few times, for a fact.

I wanted to offer you some comfort regarding exposure. It is the most alien, contrary , uninstinctive act I ever performed. I felt like nothing I could do would certainly end my marriage like exposing would. Folk advising me to do exposure must all be crazy ! After all they don't now how vicious my WW is....

But in prayer I did it. It seemed " right" and that was better than all the wrong everywhere else in our marriage. I felt that adding some "right", goodness, honesty could not make my situation genuinely actually worse.

So while I was running an errand I called OMs GF from Tescos car park. I will never forget the exact second in that conversation where her heart broke. My guts just churned for her. I was a month into my own hell by then, so I must have seemed strong to her.

After a few minutes speaking I shut down the phone, then ran retching to a bush in the car park to puke. Before I'd wiped my mouth, my WW was on the phone swearing up and down that I had just guaranteed a divorce, that she would make my life hell, that she'd take my kids, that she and OM would be happy; that he was more of a man than I would ever be...

Yet even then, responding with anti-babble ( you tried that yet?) I felt an empowerment within me. A cleansing. I had taken control of my sheet. I had become a knight not a surf. The remote control for our lives had passed from OM and my WW to me.

WW was absolutely vicious for three weeks. OM dodged righteously thrown crockery for several days. But even if I M were to fail I knew it was the right thing. There was now fear, rather than swagger in WWs affair talk. Communication between her and OM was about quartered.

See affairs are about as real as ten year olds playing "doctors and nurses". When Mom opens the door and turns on the light it takes a REAL committed player to carry on ! Exposure is like switching on the light on their sordid, deluded little game. Lies they knew they were telling and receiving suddenly seemed like stupid lies with the light of truth exposing them. A future loomed where the pretend lives they swore to each other they would one day live in secret was an actual LIKELIHOOD and it made them retch.

Exposure subjects the bindings of an affair to stress. Yes a very few withstand it, but the overwhelming majority crumble like movie vampires in the sunlight.

You have committed a courageous and righteous act, sir. Be proud and disciplined as you watch to see as the roaches run from the light.

All blessings.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 04:09 PM
I get the feeling she's already been questioned once. That's why she said "your little plan didn't work." I imagine follow up questioning will take place soon.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 04:12 PM
Hey Gurka,

I forgot to add,

Please don't ask your LT buddy how the investigation is going. You don't want to run the risk of causing your's or your friend's SS to be dismissed because you were both discussing what each other wrote.

The investigating officer will inform your buddy to not discuss his statement with anyone unless it's with a JAG officer or the investigating officer.

Just sit back and relax... You'll hear about the "results" of the investigation soon enough. ANY punishment given out to an LT in their basic course will fly through the LT and CPT ranks faster than bad milk ... oops, sorry about that!

Seriously, you WILL know what happens eventually, so don't worry about the investigation.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 04:14 PM
Yeah, I knew better than to discuss anything about our statements with him. Just thanked him again for helping me do the right thing, and apologized for taking his time with this stuff.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 04:18 PM
Quote
I get the feeling she's already been questioned once.


Maybe, maybe not. I DO think that her Cdr probably brought her in and told her that an investigation was starting and that as of XXXXhrs, XX Day, XX Month, 2010 that she is to cease all contact with OM to include phone, e-mail, text, signal flags, smoke signals, carrier pidgeons, etc.

If the investigating officer talked with her first, I think you'd have gotten more "specific" hate mail from your W.

Again, don't worry about the investigation(s)... they're working and it WILL end the A!

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 04:19 PM
You know, something that's been churning around in my head since I got here... Another LT from my brigade that came on the deployment and I were talking at Camp Phoenix one day when we first got to A-stan. He said, "So I hear you and your wife have an open marriage." I was shocked to hear that, since I don't know him that well at all, but I just kind of laughed it off and asked where he heard something like that. He was like, "oh, it's just a rumor I heard, guess it's not true."

He's an infantry officer, and has plenty of connections back to Fort Benning, so I wonder if some sort of rumors of what was going on back when my WW and OM were there got around to him somehow... I've been meaning to send him an email to ask where he heard that, but then I'd have to explain this whole situation to another person...
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 04:35 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
You know, something that's been churning around in my head since I got here... Another LT from my brigade that came on the deployment and I were talking at Camp Phoenix one day when we first got to A-stan. He said, "So I hear you and your wife have an open marriage." I was shocked to hear that, since I don't know him that well at all, but I just kind of laughed it off and asked where he heard something like that. He was like, "oh, it's just a rumor I heard, guess it's not true."

He's an infantry officer, and has plenty of connections back to Fort Benning, so I wonder if some sort of rumors of what was going on back when my WW and OM were there got around to him somehow... I've been meaning to send him an email to ask where he heard that, but then I'd have to explain this whole situation to another person...

Be prepared if OM isn't the ONLY OM in your situation, but rather the only one stupid enough to get attached to your WW. This is based on your WW's sexual history as well as several comments by several others you have mentioned (this rumor as well as the one where you said one guy thought she was trouble because there were rumors going around with her and several other guys). If this guy heard you had an open marriage, it was probably because your WW told someone he knew and it got back to him. I don't want you to fight so hard to try and save this only to find she's been screwing around on you this whole time with multiple men. Just be very cautious about saving this marriage and insist on a polygraph if you eventually get to that point.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 04:36 PM
Quote
He said, "So I hear you and your wife have an open marriage."


Pretty common for a WS to make up all sorts of "cover stories" if anyone confronts them... No telling how many WS tell their affair partner that they are either divorced, or going through a divorce, and then go home to their spouse and be all lovey-dovey...

I wouldn't worry about it too much... unless the investigating officer contacts you again and asks for more names from people relating back to her OCS days at Ft. Benning.

You're correct in this would just muddy the waters for the current investigation, and to be honest, they will most likely only be concerned with the time that OM got to Ft. Sill and your W got to Ft. Huachuca...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 04:44 PM
Quote
I don't want you to fight so hard to try and save this only to find she's been screwing around on you this whole time with multiple men. Just be very cautious about saving this marriage and insist on a polygraph if you eventually get to that point.


Hey Gurka,

I agree with jmwc95 on this, but I'll continue to say let's focus on exposure and ending the A.

THEN we can re-evaluate where you are and what you'd like to do. We'll help you with whatever decision you make when the time comes.

Multipl A's are a totally different animal...trust me, I know. frown

Again, keep your focus on exposing and ending the A... then we'll re-evaluate and see which way you want to go.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: saynomore Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 04:47 PM
Awesome post, Bob! I wish that all waffling BSs could read it.

Sorry for the T/J, jeff but I can't resist a notable post. You are holding up incredibly by the way. You are still on my MB prayer list.

God's Blessings,

Say
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 04:52 PM
It's still absolutely amazing to me that someone could be so caught up in a fantasy that they feel no guilt or remorse, and actually blame me. One of my friends just said, "The only way she could explain acting like this is if she was on drugs."

Planning on writing WW on Friday to thank her for the t-shirts. Going to see JAG in the morning...
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 04:58 PM
Originally Posted by RIF
Quote
I don't want you to fight so hard to try and save this only to find she's been screwing around on you this whole time with multiple men. Just be very cautious about saving this marriage and insist on a polygraph if you eventually get to that point.


Hey Gurka,

I agree with jmwc95 on this, but I'll continue to say let's focus on exposure and ending the A.

THEN we can re-evaluate where you are and what you'd like to do. We'll help you with whatever decision you make when the time comes.

Multipl A's are a totally different animal...trust me, I know. frown

Again, keep your focus on exposing and ending the A... then we'll re-evaluate and see which way you want to go.

Semper Fi,

RIF

You are right, I was putting the cart before the horse. It's just that comment really struck me. If people see your wife screwing around, are they more likely to think she's cheating on you or that you have an open marriage? If people think you have an open marriage, there has to be a reason (like someone told them that). I can't imagine a guy coming up to me and saying he heard I had an open marriage unless he genuinely thought I did and that it was pretty common knowledge.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 05:14 PM
Quote
It's still absolutely amazing to me that someone could be so caught up in a fantasy that they feel no guilt or remorse, and actually blame me.


Been there. Mrs. RIF kept her "guilt" hidden from me for 10 years! It took her over 2 years to finally start showing remorse for the multiple A's that she kept hidden from me.

Being in an A is almost like being on drugs... Mrs. RIF said that she enjoyed the "excitement" and the "thrill" of seeing what she could get away with without getting caught. That's why it takes some time for the WS to detach from the OP... they have to get away from their "fix" before they can start thinking rationally.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: ouchthathurt Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 05:26 PM
She could be a sociopath. They're not all killers. Only a small percentage. Google it and read the symptoms. My son has all the symptoms.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 05:37 PM
Originally Posted by ouchthathurt
She could be a sociopath. They're not all killers. Only a small percentage. Google it and read the symptoms. My son has all the symptoms.

They say the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. wink
Posted By: believer Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 05:46 PM
The open marriage stuff is common. My ex's OW claimed that she and her hubby had an open marriage. That's one reason my ex didn't feel guilty about having an affair with the wife of a deployed soldier. When OW's husband came home and I exposed the affair and asked about the "open marriage", he said he wished he'd known that. So don't worry about it - wife is just trying not to look like a #####.

That is what is so great about MB. Affairees always do and say the same things. So the plans here work.

Concentrate on taking good care of YOU, then recovering the marriage.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 05:59 PM
Just had a PBJ sandwich, banana and some milk. Watching the simpsons. Taking good care of me. wink
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by believer
The open marriage stuff is common. My ex's OW claimed that she and her hubby had an open marriage. That's one reason my ex didn't feel guilty about having an affair with the wife of a deployed soldier. When OW's husband came home and I exposed the affair and asked about the "open marriage", he said he wished he'd known that. So don't worry about it - wife is just trying not to look like a #####.

That is what is so great about MB. Affairees always do and say the same things. So the plans here work.

Concentrate on taking good care of YOU, then recovering the marriage.

I know, I was just saying that she had to be the one starting that rumor by her words, and it might not have been just the OM she told that to before sleeping with them.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 06:03 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
Just had a PBJ sandwich, banana and some milk. Watching the simpsons. Taking good care of me. wink

I'll give you credit, whether it be a WW or milk, you aren't afraid to jump right back in to the thing that caused you a lot of pain and heart/stomach ache.
Posted By: believer Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 06:09 PM
Well, it could be anything, but the most probable thing is that the Mrs. or OM was confronted by someone and gave the "open marriage" excuse. Otherwise she looks trashy cheating on a deployed soldier.

My ex and I both worked on Camp Pendleton, and I had heard rumors, people hushing up when I joined a group talking and things like that. There is NOTHING like the military for rumors. Something could happen at my work, and an hour later, it is all over Iraq and Afghanistan.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 06:40 PM
Quote
Watching the simpsons.


Now there's a wholesome show!!! laugh

Let us know how the JAG appointment goes tomorrow...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 06:51 PM
One of my wife's friends started chatting with me online earlier. Saying how my wife was doing the wrong thing by having an affair with a married father of 3, and refusing to stop it was so terrible. Now I haven't even talked to her about any of this, so she must have heard it all from my wife, so I was kind of excited that someone that heard from her was seeing things somewhat objectively. Until she started with "you've always been too good for her anyway", "you've always been a great guy," and "we should get some dinner or something when you get back."

Struck me as hugely inappropriate. I didn't even know how to respond. And it cast doubt on everything she'd said up to that point. And I was so hopeful that one of her friends had actually seen the light. Sigh.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 06:58 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
One of my wife's friends started chatting with me online earlier. Saying how my wife was doing the wrong thing by having an affair with a married father of 3, and refusing to stop it was so terrible. Now I haven't even talked to her about any of this, so she must have heard it all from my wife, so I was kind of excited that someone that heard from her was seeing things somewhat objectively. Until she started with "you've always been too good for her anyway", "you've always been a great guy," and "we should get some dinner or something when you get back."

Struck me as hugely inappropriate. I didn't even know how to respond. And it cast doubt on everything she'd said up to that point. And I was so hopeful that one of her friends had actually seen the light. Sigh.

Well at least if you do wind up getting divorced you know which friend of hers you can sleep with to get back at her. (I know, bad joke.) stickout
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 07:09 PM
Quote
redflagand "we should get some dinner or something when you get back." redflag


Is this friend married? Be very careful here... Sounds like your W may be using one of her friends to try and get a little G-2 on you, OR she may just think that you're going to divorce your W and is looking at you as "easy pickings"... Either way, I'd be very careful...

Quote
And I was so hopeful that one of her friends had actually seen the light. Sigh.


I wouldn't worry too much about her "friends"... I suspect that they've known about the A for a while, but none of them that knew you both were "friends" enough to tell YOU abou what was going on...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 07:24 PM
Just thought of somthing else that might have prompted the chat...

Your W may have asked this "friend" to chat you up in order to get you focused on "life after Mrs. Gurka"... you know, if this friend is single, maybe Mrs. Gurka was just "looking out for you" and told her "friend" that you would soon be "available"... and for her to try and cheer you up.

Or she could be trying to trap you into getting "romantic" with this friend in order for her to use that as a defense for her own investigation.

"See CPT Investigator, My Husband LT Gurka, is cheating on me too.... he started it first and he accused me so he wouldn't get in trouble"

Regardless, I'd be careful around this "friend". Stay focused on your goal of exposing the A and ending the A. You know that the investigations are on-going, so it's just a matter of time before the hammer drops on OM and your W... then the REAL venom and nastyness will come out.

Check out the thread that's going on now about what WS have said during the A and right after exposure.... I can almost bet that Mrs. Gurka will say some of the EXACT things to you once the investigation is over and she loses the OM and her Army career...

Good night and get some rest!

Semper Fi,

RIF

Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 07:24 PM
No, she's not married. It just struck me as her being an opportunist trying to take advantage of the situation. I'm not interested in other women, I'm interested in saving my marriage.
Posted By: believer Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 07:28 PM
I'm with RIF - probably a trap. Email her back that you love your wife and are hoping to reconcile.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 07:33 PM
Ditto what Believer said!

G'night Gurka! Its 0003 there... aren't you tired?

I'll check back with you tomorrow...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Vittoria Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 08:17 PM
If I could send you something, it would be this!
I have a son about your age, he loves them. smile
And, I can't even imagine how worried I would be if it were him in your shoes, and dealing with this so far away from family support.
You be Careful young lad. hug Get your sleep and keep your wits about you.

[Linked Image from goodnewsisnews.com]

Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 08:18 PM
Originally Posted by Vittoria
If I could send you something, it would be this!
I have a son about your age, he loves them. smile
And, I can't even imagine how worried I would be if it were him in your shoes, and dealing with this so far away from family support.
You be Careful young lad. hug Get your sleep and keep your wits about you.

[Linked Image from goodnewsisnews.com]

You are making me hungry.
Posted By: Vittoria Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 08:31 PM
edit .... just noticed that I somehow messed up the quotes, the original quote is from Jim, the reply is RIF.

Originally Posted by jmwc95
Originally Posted by RIF
I don't want you to fight so hard to try and save this only to find she's been screwing around on you this whole time with multiple men. Just be very cautious about saving this marriage and insist on a polygraph if you eventually get to that point.


Hey Gurka,

I agree with jmwc95 on this, but I'll continue to say let's focus on exposure and ending the A.

THEN we can re-evaluate where you are and what you'd like to do. We'll help you with whatever decision you make when the time comes.

Multipl A's are a totally different animal...trust me, I know. frown

Again, keep your focus on exposing and ending the A... then we'll re-evaluate and see which way you want to go.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Just so you know Gurka, I stand in this camp too.
It's a process of re-evaluation in each phase.

The comment from the other soldier about an open M, my first thought was that maybe this guy was trying to tell you, in a round about way,
that your W was cheating on you. You know, doing the right thing, most people turn a blind eye, don't want to get involved.
It would never have occurred to me that a WS would proclaim to having an open M. Nothing surprises me anymore. MrRollieEyes

Yeah, I agree there is something fishy with WW's GF. At first she sounds like she has her morals in the right place, until she basically asks you out. faint
I agree, send her back that reply that Believer suggested, then ..... no more talk with her.
Posted By: Vittoria Re: WW waffling between us - 04/28/10 08:33 PM
I know Jim, isn't that a great pic, I can make them just like that too!
Can't you just smell them coming right out of the oven! lol
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/29/10 08:07 AM
JAG basically told me to get divorced right now, since my wife offered such generous terms. If I drag it out, and my wife gets kicked out of the Army and still wants a divorce, I'll likely be on the hook for spousal support. frown
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/29/10 08:16 AM
Oh yeah, and my WW altering our insurance puts her in contempt of court for violating the injunction. She's subject to arrest and prosecution for "interfering with judicial proceedings."

Though I don't think jail, on top of everything else, would really do our relationship much good.
Posted By: AnnaBelleRose Re: WW waffling between us - 04/29/10 08:29 AM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
JAG basically told me to get divorced right now, since my wife offered such generous terms. If I drag it out, and my wife gets kicked out of the Army and still wants a divorce, I'll likely be on the hook for spousal support. frown

wow. Interesting advice.

On a side note, thank you for serving and stay safe.
Posted By: Bob_Pure Re: WW waffling between us - 04/29/10 09:43 AM
Rapid divorce in the face of persistent, unrepentant adultery, especially where there are no children is a path often advised by Dr Harley.

You should consider this another weapon in your arsenal, no more , no less.

All blessings
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/29/10 10:15 AM
Quote
If I drag it out, and my wife gets kicked out of the Army and still wants a divorce, I'll likely be on the hook for spousal support.


Hey Gurka,

Ok, JAG presented another view of your situation. Like I've been saying all along, this is YOUR decision and we will support you all the way with whatever you decide to do.

The fact that you don't have any kids is a huge factor in walking away from the M as some have suggested earlier. There are many factors to consider and you've heard many of them already:

- No kids
- Geographically separated
- Minimal marriage history of living together as husband & wife
- Possibility of multiple A's
- Geographic separation is likely to continue as long as both of you are in the Army
- Financial liability if W gets kicked out of the Army

I don't think that you have to make this decision right now. The investigation is still on-going, and you are protected by law from having to deal with this while you're deployed.

There may be some financial risk by delaying until you return home IF your W is booted out of the Army... but if she isn't, then that risk should go down as she won't be able to claim that you "took away" her means of making a living.

It's pretty much comes down to this: Are you willing to fight for the opportunity of saving your marriage, or are the negative factors listed above too risky for you to ignore.

Nobody here will think any less of you if you decide to walk away.... and if you decide to continue fighting for your M, we'll still be here for you!

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: TheRoad Re: WW waffling between us - 04/29/10 12:29 PM
There are other considerations. Why did the jag recommend D?

Is their someone trying to protect the OM's career?

Does WW have a high higher up trying to protect her?

To the unheaven with protecting the OM, WW, and ayone else that will get pulled down with the WW.

Dishonest people do not belong in the military. No one should have to count on people without integrity when in harms way.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/29/10 12:48 PM
The risks are negligible compared to how much I want to save my marriage. I'm sticking with my plan.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/29/10 01:05 PM
Quote
The risks are negligible compared to how much I want to save my marriage. I'm sticking with my plan.


Roger! Hang on for a rough ride... know that you'll have some great people here to help you and guide you along the way.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/29/10 01:51 PM
Thoughts for my email tomorrow:
I received your package. Thank you so much for the t-shirts, they really do make a big difference (I'm wearing one right now.) I can't really tell a difference between the underarmour one and PX basics one. Thanks for sending them, it was very thoughtful. I've been growing my hair out like you wanted, attached is a picture with my longer hair and wearing one of the tshirts you sent.
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: WW waffling between us - 04/29/10 02:16 PM
Gurka,

What makes you think she can change her personality or will not cheat in the future?
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/29/10 02:31 PM
Love the email.

And how you mentioned growing out your hair the way she likes it. The pic is a good touch too...especially if you're looking upbeat in it.

Posted By: Fred_in_VA Re: WW waffling between us - 04/29/10 02:44 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
The risks are negligible compared to how much I want to save my marriage. I'm sticking with my plan.
I think this cuts to the chase of the matter.

Naysayers should hold their water. If there comes a time for "I told you so's" then help for Gurka to recover can come then.

Right now, the only thing that matters is to help Gurka implement his Marital Recovery Plan.
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: WW waffling between us - 04/29/10 02:48 PM
Quote
Right now, the only thing that matters is to help Gurka implement his Marital Recovery Plan.


clap ITA!
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/29/10 02:54 PM
Ditto!

Goal here is to keep her engaged... more than likely, she will reply with some nasty comments and more threats.

Don't take them to heart! Your goal is to show her that you still love and care for her... regardless of how she's treating you at the moment.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: WW waffling between us - 04/29/10 03:27 PM
Originally Posted by Fred_in_VA
Right now, the only thing that matters is to help Gurka implement his Marital Recovery Plan.

Part of that involves understanding what makes Mrs. Gurka tick. What are her emotional needs and what will it take to turn her way of thinking after ending the affair.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/29/10 05:27 PM
Hey Gurka,

Hope you're having a good evening! Glad you were able to make it to your JAG appointment today.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/29/10 05:53 PM
Gerk,

I'll bet this guy didn't listen to naysayers...







Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/29/10 06:02 PM
Streaming videos don't really work well in Afghanistan, just FYI Marshmallow.

Already took the pictures for tomorrow, definitely upbeat, looking good. I'll shoot it out tomorrow morning.
Posted By: Arpeggi Re: WW waffling between us - 04/29/10 06:33 PM
Gerka (and others saying it is our job to support [aka encourage / enable] his plan to save the marriage,

I couldn't disagree more. True friends, or true people committed to helping others, don't hold back on what's in their heart. I've read every post in this thread. I've also been in Gerka's shoes. I wanted badly to recover my M as well, at first.

So I vehemently disagree that we need to not speak our hearts and minds just to respect Gerka's "decision" if we don't agree with it.

And I do disagree. Gerka, it is quite likely that this woman is broken, and will do this again to you given her history of (likely) additional infidelity which you don't know about currently. Think LONG and HARD whether she is worth it. She may have changed permanently (like my XW did). You need to think about that possibility, and be REALLY HONEST with yourself about WHY you are so committed to this marriage. Is it in your BEST interest long-term to remain married to a serial cheater when there are no kids involved.

Sometimes, there is no explanation for why people change, no rhyme or reason. Don't make the mistake of assuming she can be fixed. Maybe she can - but the facts you have presented makes me think she's far more like my XW, who has continued to spiral down the path of alienating all friends and family, and deeper into a path of self-destruction. I couldn't save her because she didn't want to be saved.

Sorry if it is not the advice you want to hear, but I believe it is for the best. Remember, you are in a "fog" just as much as she is, and I think you sound a bit like you're in denial about your ability to save the marriage.

I've been in your shoes man. There's no harder thing, no tougher pain for man. No hurt like it. I will pray for you.

Best,
(No Longer)ConfuzedHusband
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/29/10 06:41 PM
Quote
Already took the pictures for tomorrow, definitely upbeat, looking good. I'll shoot it out tomorrow morning.


Good for you Gurka! Remember, you'll probably get a poison e-mail in return, but you're excpecting that, right?

Have a good evening and get some rest!

Sempr Fi,

RIF
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/29/10 07:11 PM
Originally Posted by ConfuzedHusband
Gerka (and others saying it is our job to support [aka encourage / enable] his plan to save the marriage,

I couldn't disagree more. True friends, or true people committed to helping others, don't hold back on what's in their heart. I've read every post in this thread. I've also been in Gerka's shoes. I wanted badly to recover my M as well, at first.

So I vehemently disagree that we need to not speak our hearts and minds just to respect Gerka's "decision" if we don't agree with it.

And I do disagree. Gerka, it is quite likely that this woman is broken, and will do this again to you given her history of (likely) additional infidelity which you don't know about currently. Think LONG and HARD whether she is worth it. She may have changed permanently (like my XW did). You need to think about that possibility, and be REALLY HONEST with yourself about WHY you are so committed to this marriage. Is it in your BEST interest long-term to remain married to a serial cheater when there are no kids involved.

Sometimes, there is no explanation for why people change, no rhyme or reason. Don't make the mistake of assuming she can be fixed. Maybe she can - but the facts you have presented makes me think she's far more like my XW, who has continued to spiral down the path of alienating all friends and family, and deeper into a path of self-destruction. I couldn't save her because she didn't want to be saved.

Sorry if it is not the advice you want to hear, but I believe it is for the best. Remember, you are in a "fog" just as much as she is, and I think you sound a bit like you're in denial about your ability to save the marriage.

I've been in your shoes man. There's no harder thing, no tougher pain for man. No hurt like it. I will pray for you.

Best,
(No Longer)ConfuzedHusband

CH,

I understand where you are coming from, and I have voiced my concerns as well, but the one thing your forgetting is...we don't know Gerka or his WW. We have no idea whether or not this is a one time thing because of failed boundaries or she has a personality disorder. He can continue to plan A, work the MB plan, watch withdrawal take place, and then see how she reacts and that will tell Gerka and us a lot about her. He wants to save his marriage if it can be saved and his WW will buy into MB concepts. If both of those don't happen, he can easily walk away. Right now, he's trying to see if they can. Don't you think if his WW got through withdrawal and started reading the MB concepts and started implementing the concepts like some of the FWWs on this board, he could have a very good marriage going forward? Of course he could. Now what are the chances of that? Probably not very good, but he at least wants to see it out first and see what happens. I can respect that. And if the affair is over, and Gerka says she's still blaming him and not willing to work on the M, move to Ft. Polk, or work on the MB concepts, then yeah, I'll give him an earful about kicking his WW to the curb.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/29/10 07:16 PM
Quote
...and others saying it is our job to support [aka encourage / enable] his plan to save the marriage


Hi CH - It's OK, you can say RIF. I don't mind at all!

I'm sorry that you believe that assisting a fellow MB'er with trying to save his marriage as "enabling"... because I, like many others here don't see it that way at all.

I'm sorry that you and several others had to go through the pain and anguish of an A, and ultimately a divorce. I can not begin to ever understand the pain that you have gone through, and I DO understand your reasoning for wanting to "spare" Gurka the pain that you've felt.

Please understand that each of us here at MB are free to decide what is "best" for us as individuals. I was fortunate that by the grace of God, Mrs. RIF got the help she needed and turned her life around. Do I think that ALL WW's can do the same? Absolutely not. Some can and do turn their lives around... sadly, many do not.

Gurka knows full well what he is up against. He is not a child that needs someone with "more experience" to tell him what to do. Gurka isn't in a "fog"... he is demonstrating a maturity way beyond his years and knows what he is doing.

Please, respect Gurka's decision to fight for his marriage. He may eventually decide to NOT continue fighting for his marriage... but it really is HIS decision and not ours.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: WW waffling between us - 04/29/10 07:21 PM
Originally Posted by ConfuzedHusband
Gerka (and others saying it is our job to support [aka encourage / enable] his plan to save the marriage,

Confused Still,

This is GERKA's thread and he is receiving solid Marriage Builders advice in how to fight an affair. He has chose to fight this A...... and possibly save the marriage as a result.

It is not ENABLING him to give MB advice!
THIS IS MARRIAGE BUILDERS!



Originally Posted by ConfuzedHusband
I couldn't disagree more. True friends, or true people committed to helping others, don't hold back on what's in their heart. I've read every post in this thread. I've also been in Gerka's shoes. I wanted badly to recover my M as well, at first.

So I vehemently disagree that we need to not speak our hearts and minds just to respect Gerka's "decision" if we don't agree with it.

Confused Again,

Gerka came here to learn how to end this affair and possibly recover a marriage..... He is not looking for a friend, nor does he desire to know how your heart feels.... MrRollieEyes

He came here to learn and implement MB plans in fighting an affair. This A needs to end no matter what... it is cruel and evil.

So my advice to you is to sit back and/or stick to helping him with the MB program ... IMNSHO



Originally Posted by ConfuzedHusband
Sorry if it is not the advice you want to hear, but I believe it is for the best. Remember, you are in a "fog" just as much as she is, and I think you sound a bit like you're in denial about your ability to save the marriage.

Pretty ballzy to exalt yourself to such a self-appointed position!
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/29/10 07:27 PM
Quote
I think you sound a bit like you're in denial about your ability to save the marriage.


And I think you are in denial that others HAVE recovered M's that were in much worse shape than Gerk's.



Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/29/10 07:29 PM
Quote
Gurka knows full well what he is up against. He is not a child that needs someone with "more experience" to tell him what to do. Gurka isn't in a "fog"... he is demonstrating a maturity way beyond his years and knows what he is doing.


Agree 100%!
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/29/10 07:39 PM
Quote
And if the affair is over, and Gerka says she's still blaming him and not willing to work on the M, move to Ft. Polk, or work on the MB concepts, then yeah, I'll give him an earful about kicking his WW to the curb.


As will I.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/29/10 07:39 PM
Quote
So I vehemently disagree that we need to not speak our hearts and minds just to respect Gerka's "decision" if we don't agree with it.


Again CH - This thread isn't about you. Nobody is saying that your opinion and feelings are not real... to you.

What I have been consistantly saying from my first post on this thread was that we need to support Gurka's decision, regardless of what OUR personal opinions and feelings are.

How would you look at my posts if I started posting on the Divorce threads and started "vehmently" disagreeing with people there that have decided to press on towards Divorce? "Hey, I saved my M, you can do it too!!!"

Would you agree and say "Wow,RIF is right!" He should continue posting here to try and keep these people from divorcing!!! I don't think that you would...

By doing so, my actions would be insulting and disrespectful to the thread owner...

...and so are these posts that are telling Gurka "what's best" for him.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Bob_Pure Re: WW waffling between us - 04/29/10 08:04 PM
Back in the day I received a broad range of advice. Some that I should fight for my marriage, some that I should divorce quickly , and some even that I should do some very illegal things indeed !

Fact is the main reason I chose to fight for my marriage was NOBILITY. I wanted to add dignity to the world of dirty mess that adultery had made my family's life into.

If my marriage was to end, it would not be for the want of effort from me. Mostly if my marriage WAS to end I would not lose my wife to the low dog that was OM in my situation.

My toolbag STILL included every option, including divorce , but I chose to do all I could to recover my marriage.

My Squid and daughter just arrived in the front door from the spinning class they attended. Laughing. Squid popped in and kissed me on the cheek before taking a shower.

She is restored as a great mother. The kids are blessed to have her. She is highly repentant and ashamed of her past behaviour. She loves me. She is a good wife, and learning to be a better one.

While such a marriage is a hope for Gurka, or any BS facing the horror of adultery I will not slate them for not choosing divorce, and I will do all I can to help them.

If they are not successful in restoring their marriage they will at least be ennobled by and made proud of their efforts " Earning your way out" some of we old timers call that.

Gurka wants to fight for his marriage under hard circumstances. Let those of us who do not want to aid him in that, remain quiet. Let those of us who wish to support him do so.

I have seen some horrendous situations yield a successful recovery. Why deny Gurka that potential ?

Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/29/10 08:12 PM
Quote
I think you sound a bit like you're in denial about your ability to save the marriage.


Gerk said this:

Quote
I seriously doubt my wife will ever overcome her stubbornness and pride and be able to say, "Yeah, I did all of these terrible things, they were wrong, and I'm sorry." I think it's much more her style to simply run away.


Where do you see "denial about his ability to save the marriage" in that statement?

Posted By: karmasrose Re: WW waffling between us - 04/29/10 08:14 PM
I think he's merely questioning his WIFE'S ability to help recover. Which is reasonable.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/29/10 08:49 PM
Yup, it is reasonable, karmasrose.

Great post, Bob.
Posted By: Fred_in_VA Re: WW waffling between us - 04/29/10 09:30 PM
Originally Posted by ConfuzedHusband
Gerka (and others saying it is our job to support [aka encourage / enable] his plan to save the marriage,

I couldn't disagree more. True friends, or true people committed to helping others, don't hold back on what's in their heart. I've read every post in this thread. I've also been in Gerka's shoes. I wanted badly to recover my M as well, at first.

So I vehemently disagree that we need to not speak our hearts and minds just to respect Gerka's "decision" if we don't agree with it.
Since it was I who voiced the opinion that we should support Gurka's wish to recover his marriage, let me clarify my position since I think I didn't express it well enough.

I think it's fine to disagree with his decision. But it is his decision and I think it should be respected. Voicing one's opinion that he should reconsider is not out of order. Castigating him and berating him for wanting to do so is.

There may be a fine line between opining and browbeating.

FWIW, I received many differing opinions about my own situation. There were some very strident voices urging me to pull the plug. Which is what I wound up doing.

MelodyLane perhaps, best typified the point I'm trying to make. She was one of those who echoed the "let her go" refrain to me. Yet she continued to offer me support and advice all through my process, and does so to this day.

Disagreeing does not mean being disagreeable.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: WW waffling between us - 04/29/10 10:22 PM
Enabling?

A facinating word. It has become an anethema and yet...

It is precisely what I aspire to do on this site. It is what I would be and am proud to say I have done in my life.

If I can enable someone to have the strength to do what they feel they need to do to preserve their marriage or attempt to preserve it, then I have done something I am proud of.

If I can enable someone to achieve something they did not think they could, then I am proud.

If I can enable someone to acheive what they know they can do, but just need a bit if help, then I am proud.

If I can enable someone to see or learn something they did not know, then I am proud.

So for you folks who think that RIF, myself and others on this thread are enabling Gerka to stand up and do what he thinks is right, I will admit guilt...proudly.

This whole site is about enabling people to learn, evaluate, attempt to address, improve, and deal with the problems that befall marriages and relationships.

Failure is always a possiblity, but without effort failure is guaranted. Gerka is going to succeed with or not his marriage fails because he is going to learn many things he would not learn if he just signed the papers and walked off.

I do think Gerka needs to be enabled.

JL
Posted By: Arpeggi Re: WW waffling between us - 04/29/10 10:34 PM
Ok! Just remember that Marriage Builders is not "save every marriage at all costs". Even Dr. Harley recommends divorce typically with WW + short marriage + no kids + serial adultery situations. He has said himself that he would divorce his wife were there infidelity in his marriage.

So don't make the mistake of saying "this is a Marriage BUILDERS" site in order to imply that recommendations to divorce are not allowed.

To see where I'm coming from, if you're interested, read my thread.

I was counseled by some very wise posters to strongly consider divorce. At first I was horrified. Then I realized they were speaking from experience. Praise God I listened to them instead of myself.

Anyway, as much as it's not my thread... guess what....

It's not YOUR thread either!

It's about what's best for Gerka. I am giving him the advice I think is best, just as you all are.

None of us are Dr. Harley, so for "OFFICIAL" MB advice, Gerka knows he can contact the Harleys themselves. This forum is for our opinions to help others.

So is my advice right? We'll see. Just trying to save him some pain and make sure he's taking care of himself.

So, unless I hear from Gerka that he doesn't want to hear my opinion, I'm going to continue to give it. I suppose I have the same right to post and give my two cents within the framework of MB principles as anyone else.

Gerka, I'm rooting for you, my friend.
Posted By: Arpeggi Re: WW waffling between us - 04/29/10 10:41 PM
TST, I'm surprised at your personal attacks. I wasn't upset with you, and sorry if I hurt your feelings by coming across as "ballzy".

Also, RIF, I actually wasn't talking about you - I respect your thoughts and opinions quite a bit! I think Gerka is really lucky to have another military officer to advise and support him through this.
Posted By: Lexxxy Re: WW waffling between us - 04/29/10 11:07 PM
Quote
Ok! Just remember that Marriage Builders is not "save every marriage at all costs". Even Dr. Harley recommends divorce typically with WW + short marriage + no kids + serial adultery situations. He has said himself that he would divorce his wife were there infidelity in his marriage.


Please don't mischaracterize his comments.

Dr. Harley and his wife employ all of the policies in the marriage builders program (POJA, radical honesty, meeting EN's ETC.) They strive to keep their marriage affair-proof. If, in spite of their efforts, there was an affair in their marriage, it would be beyond his ability to fix it -- that is why he has made that statement.

Gerka -- this is your call to make. And you will find support no matter what your decision is. And you will find detractors no matter what your decision is.

I just want to comment quickly on the email. The picture, and the comment about your hair the "way she likes it" are actually not love-bank deposits. They will be an irritation to her. So expect that.

Posted By: _SOL Re: WW waffling between us - 04/29/10 11:25 PM
Gerka- Sorry you are here my friend, but you are getting some great advice. I don't know what took so long, but I just read through most of your thread here. What a busy two weeks you have had!

I am also a BS and my wife started her A while I was in Afghanistan last year. Unfortunately for me, I didn't know it was an affair until I came home. I wish I would have found this site while I was there.

Anyway, I just wanted to let you know I think you are doing a great job so far. Like Bob, I have recieved tons of helpful advice running the full spectrum of Plan A through immediate divorce. Your WW doesn't seem much different than mine or any other I've read about here. You know her better than anybody and if recovering your marriage is your goal, you are doing well.

I caution you to try not to let this consume you over there. I know I was a wreck at times and put myself and my Soldiers at risk due to the uncertainty of the situation. Don't let that happen to you. Every once and a while, mentally back up a second and look at the big picture. It will help you to keep things in perspective a bit. It also helps to re-read your whole thread from time to time to catch things you may have missed initially.

Since you are in Plan A, please remember NO EXPECTATIONS. She is still angry from exposure and will thrive on her anger to fuel her justification. Weather the storm and stay strong. Just keep trying to do the next 'right' thing.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: WW waffling between us - 04/29/10 11:36 PM
Originally Posted by ConfuzedHusband
TST, I'm surprised at your personal attacks. I wasn't upset with you, and sorry if I hurt your feelings by coming across as "ballzy".

Also, RIF, I actually wasn't talking about you - I respect your thoughts and opinions quite a bit! I think Gerka is really lucky to have another military officer to advise and support him through this.

Confuzed, stop it RIGHT NOW. Gerka has already indicated his goal and we need to support that in MB fashion. If you cannot support him in this LEAVE THIS THREAD.

If the worst thing happens and his M doesn't make it? Come back around and console him, and let him know how you handled that. That's when your experience will be important. Right now you are a distraction. STOP. twoxfour And the other poster needs to take his anger elsewhere, as well. Gerka has already said this!
Posted By: Arpeggi Re: WW waffling between us - 04/29/10 11:45 PM
Marital Bliss:

Again, if GERKA wants me to stop giving my two cents, I will! This is HIS thread, not YOURS.

I'm not posting anything out of line. I'm trying to help Gerka.

RIF (whom I respect, by the way) already tried to report another person, and the moderator said that nothing anybody wrote violated the TOS. My comments are not meant to divide or hurt, but to help Gerka in the best way I know how. I haven't posted a lot, but I've read a lot of threads with a lot of posters who are older and wiser than me.

It is a potential disservice to Gerka for you to attempt muzzle dissenting MB posters simply because you "don't agree" with their advice.

I'm GLAD you're giving him your advice. Why do you feel threatened by mine? Gerka's a smart man, he's an adult. He can handle alternate viewpoints!

So, once again, as it's Gerka's thread, I am leaving it up to him. If my advice is not helpful to him at this time, I will quietly lurk once more!

Praying for you, Gerka. Thanks for serving our country as well.

Posted By: Scotland Re: WW waffling between us - 04/29/10 11:46 PM
Gerka-Although I don't have a lot of advice to give you at this point, I will say that I have been following your thread. I am pulling for you. We ALL are. Just follow the advice given to you and do what is right for YOU. You will come out GREAT on the other end(no matter which way this ends up). You have some heavy hitters posting to you. Good work thus far.
Posted By: Unfettered Re: WW waffling between us - 04/30/10 12:36 AM
Originally Posted by ConfuzedHusband
Marital Bliss:

Again, if GERKA wants me to stop giving my two cents, I will! This is HIS thread, not YOURS.

Confuzed,
I believe that Gerka already asked HelpTheLostDads to stop posting the same sort of stuff you are posting. He understands that at some point, he will have to evaluate whether rebuilding the marriage is even possible. But for now, he has asked for help on ending the affair and trying to save the marraige. The time for your advice will come later, most likely when he is home from Afghanistan.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/30/10 02:59 AM
Good Morning Gurka!

I see that you're getting lots of "help" here!

Hope your Friday is starting off well... Only 1/2 a day today so I'm looking forward to my "5-Hr Weekend".

Do they stll have the local Bazzars there on Fridays? AAFES has really cracked down on the Bazzars and all of the local vendors have to go through AAFES and pay a percentage of their sales in order to set up a shop here. Prices are about 50% higher here in Iraq than they were over there...

Anymore contact from your W's female friend? You received some good comments from that and I hope you've given this some thought in case she (w's friend) continues to contact you.

Drop in when you have a chance and let us know how you're doing!

Semper Fi,

RIF

Posted By: JustUss Re: WW waffling between us - 04/30/10 05:10 AM
Yes, the moderators are STILL watching and reading.

As Breeze posted earlier--
"We have seen no violations of TOS that require editing yet. Feel free to email me if you have questions.

Let's ALL remember to keep our posts focused on helping this poster."

While dissenting opinions are NOT a violation of TOS, Gerka has expressed his desire for Marriage Builders help to SAVE his marriage.
PLEASE keep your posts to Gerka HELPFUL to this goal.
Posted By: Arpeggi Re: WW waffling between us - 04/30/10 05:54 AM
JustUss: Understood. I will bite my tongue and pray for the best. Back to lurking mode. I hope for the best, but can't see how this will end well. We'll see, and if I'm wrong, I will be happy for Gerka.

If I'm right, I won't say I told you so.
Posted By: Scotland Re: WW waffling between us - 04/30/10 10:36 AM
I see a lot of DJs floating around on these last few posts and other than the fact that they are not directly helpful to Gerka's current sitch, they are helpful to learn how people use DJs not only with their spouses but to others as well. We can all learn and grow. We can become better people. Thanx DrH.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/30/10 11:54 AM
Originally Posted by RIF
Good Morning Gurka!

I see that you're getting lots of "help" here!

Hope your Friday is starting off well... Only 1/2 a day today so I'm looking forward to my "5-Hr Weekend".

Do they stll have the local Bazzars there on Fridays? AAFES has really cracked down on the Bazzars and all of the local vendors have to go through AAFES and pay a percentage of their sales in order to set up a shop here. Prices are about 50% higher here in Iraq than they were over there...

Anymore contact from your W's female friend? You received some good comments from that and I hope you've given this some thought in case she (w's friend) continues to contact you.

Drop in when you have a chance and let us know how you're doing!

Semper Fi,

RIF

Yeah, still plenty of bazaars.

I'm doing ok, had to go to Eggers again today (not much of a day off.)

My commercial internet connection is still down, but I'm curious as to why Lexxy said the email would be an irritation, not a LB deposit. She specifically put on her EN questionnaire in the attractiveness section that she likes my hair when it's longer on the sides....
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/30/10 12:09 PM
Quote
I'm curious as to why Lexxy said the email would be an irritation, not a LB deposit


Hey Gurka - I suspect that Lexxy means that right now, ANY communications from you will be an irritation.

You're the one that's ending her A. In your W's mind, if you would have just left things alone, "everything" would be fine, and she and OM wouldn't be under investigation.

Your W might not appreciate the fact that you are letting your hair grow out "like she likes it" now, but hopefully, after she's been in NC with the OM, she will remember all of the things that you've done for her... even when she was deep in her A.

Love is a verb. You can say "I love you" all day long... Right now, she's not going to hear you words, but even if she does't admit it, she IS noticing your actions!

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Vittoria Re: WW waffling between us - 04/30/10 12:30 PM
I've just caught up here and I'm getting ready to go to work ....

I know that you guys understand these proceedings, I don't.
I'm curious, what is the reality of Gurka having to pay spousal support????

Gurka, it's like RIF explained above, she is still in wayward land right now, her love bank won't be open to deposits.
That doesn't mean that it won't be logged somewhere in her mind, it just may not
be acknowledged the way that you would like, at this moment.



Posted By: Bob_Pure Re: WW waffling between us - 04/30/10 01:12 PM
Rig and Vittoria are exactly right, Gurka.

You have ( it seems) one very important ingredient in the successful recipe for ending a spouses affair : You do not have a desperate fear of losing your WW.

To all intents and purposes she's already gone br'a. You know that.

Nothing you can do can make her MORE lost right now, but you might JUST help guide her back.

The reason you lost her is because she exaggerated the bad stuff about you in her head and forgot the good stuff. I know that because that almost all affairs.

The only way you can challenge that is by LIVING OUT your good attributes.

* being dignified, having self respect.
* Caring but not being a boot rag
* being forgiving but taking no [censored]
* being a calm , straight , capable edge that demonstrates the chaos in her own behaviour and the rest of her life

WS have only peripheral vision. Your WW can stare right at you and fail to see your goodness, but persistent admirable spousal behaviour is always there at the edge of her vision and it will sink in with persistence.

Light the way back to your heart subtly Gurka. Its harder when you're both in the military for sure, but RIF can help you out with that.

Exposure was a great thing to do. Now be the best H you can be given the circumstances.

Also, it may help for you to practice Loving Detachment. It can save your heart some hurt when you get Fog back from her. If you need a guide to this, let me know.

All blessings
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/30/10 01:30 PM
Ok, about to send out the email. Expecting venom\divorce talk in response, but I'm ready for it.
Posted By: Lexxxy Re: WW waffling between us - 04/30/10 01:51 PM
Gerka --

Your wife and SOL's and several others are ACTIVE waywards.
They require special handling in terms of Plan A.
Male waywards just lap up Plan A like a cat with cream.
But WOMEN are different.

She thinks she is in luuuuv with OM. In contrast, she is in a state of withdrawal from you. She does not feel in love with you. So trying to flirt or entice her isn't going to be well received right now -- especially since she blames you PRIMARILY for the problems in her affair.

Right now she feels extreme anger towards you. She does not give a rats [censored] what you do with your hair. Prior to the affair-implosion she probably felt affection but not that "in-love" feeling that she has for OM. So prior to the recent events she might have made some kind of positive comment about it -- but right now you should just expect it to irritate her.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/30/10 01:54 PM
So what's the best way to handle the situation at this point?

Judging from the most recent phone usage (I'm not sure why she's still using the phone that I can monitor as opposed to her other phone...) she's been calling him and getting voice mail. This was only 2 days ago.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/30/10 02:02 PM
In truth, Gerk's BREATHING is an irritation to her right now.

How can Gerk stay engaged w/ her w/o irritating her?
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/30/10 02:03 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
Judging from the most recent phone usage (I'm not sure why she's still using the phone that I can monitor as opposed to her other phone...) she's been calling him and getting voice mail. This was only 2 days ago.

Let OMW know they are still in contact.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/30/10 02:11 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
So what's the best way to handle the situation at this point?

Judging from the most recent phone usage (I'm not sure why she's still using the phone that I can monitor as opposed to her other phone...) she's been calling him and getting voice mail. This was only 2 days ago.

That's a good sign. It seems like he may be following the cease and desist contact order, even if she doesn't. You might want to forward that info on to OMW, and if it doesn't stop, I would probably give this information to the investigating officers as well. I'll let RIF chime in on that part.

Why is she using the phone you can monitor? Probably her head is spinning and she just can't think right now. Also, she might have been using a pre-paid phone and since he hasn't been talking to her, she ran out of minutes and just hasn't recharged the minutes. There is no point anymore.
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: WW waffling between us - 04/30/10 02:12 PM
Let the investigators know they are still communicating.

These questions haven't been answered and they really must be in order to be able to give good advice:

What EN's does she have that can be met to help her recommit to the marriage?

What in her personality makes you think she might recommit?

Were there good years in your marriage that she can think of fondly?

The impression I have from your thread is that trouble started right away, but I may be misreading it.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/30/10 02:14 PM
Originally Posted by Marshmallow
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
Judging from the most recent phone usage (I'm not sure why she's still using the phone that I can monitor as opposed to her other phone...) she's been calling him and getting voice mail. This was only 2 days ago.

Let OMW know they are still in contact.

Done. Just a brief email, "Just wanted to let you know that (WW) is still trying to call your husband. Keep an eye out."
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/30/10 02:30 PM
Good job, Gerk.

I don't think a pic of you wearing a shirt she bought for you, looking upbeat is flirtatious or enticing.

As long as your expression is upbeat and NOT "see what you're missing, baby?".



Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/30/10 02:42 PM
Originally Posted by Marshmallow
Good job, Gerk.

I don't think a pic of you wearing a shirt she bought for you, looking upbeat is flirtatious or enticing.

As long as your expression is upbeat and NOT "see what you're missing, baby?".

Yup, the email was exactly what I put on here. The pictures were just normal pictures. I don't look exuberant or sad.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/30/10 02:44 PM
Hey Gurka,

Yep, I'd send a copy of the most recent attempts at contact to your BN Cdr and ask him to forward them to the investigating officers...

I agree with Jmwc - Sounds like OM is cooling his heels now that he's been caught... He's more worried about saving his own career and keeping his family than chatting with your W now! smile

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/30/10 02:52 PM
No one's told me that they're not to be in contact... I'll ask my BN commander if it's relevant.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/30/10 02:59 PM
I'd be very surprised if they DIDN'T give them each a No Contact order. At a minimum, the investigating officer would have told each of them that they are NOT to talk with anyone related to the investigation.

Obviously, OM is part of your W's investigation, and your W is part of the OM's investigation... so I do think that you should discuss this with your BN Cdr and ask him if you should send him the most recent phone log.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/30/10 03:10 PM
Sent an email to my BN commander.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/30/10 03:22 PM
Hooah!
Posted By: Lexxxy Re: WW waffling between us - 04/30/10 03:38 PM
My suspicion is that the affair-phone has been deactivated. Either by OM or OMW. (try calling the number from a blocked number...)

So she is desperate enough to contact him using any phone available...
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/30/10 04:16 PM
My wife's "affair phone" is an AT&T cell phone, which I'm certain hasn't been deactivated. Her finances are totally invisible to me at this point, and she'd have no problem continuing to pay for it. I think it's more likely that he wasn't answering when she was calling from the "affair phone" so she tried calling from her phone too.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/30/10 04:21 PM
Well, wow, got a response from OMW:
STOP CONTACTING ME!!!!!!!


That was all.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/30/10 04:22 PM
Guess your "little plan" to destroy the A DID work. grin

Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 04/30/10 04:24 PM
Why do you say that? If anything it sounds like she bought into her husband & my WW's lies.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/30/10 04:29 PM
Oh, I wasn't responding to that post. I was responding to this...

Quote
I think it's more likely that he wasn't answering when she was calling from the "affair phone" so she tried calling from her phone too.


I hadn't seen the latter post until just now.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 04/30/10 04:34 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
Why do you say that? If anything it sounds like she bought into her husband & my WW's lies.

If anything, I bet she's just upset that you put her husband's career in jeopardy and is blaming you instead of her H and WW. Her financial stability may take a serious hit, and she still has 3 kids to take care of. If financial commitment is one of her top ENs, she may not have been happy you exposed to her WH's CO. Again, don't worry about OMW. It really doesn't make much difference if she's on your side. From now on, just forward contact to your commander.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/30/10 04:35 PM
Quote
If anything it sounds like she bought into her husband & my WW's lies.


But, I don't think that's the case. She knew about your WW's secret phone. And told you she believed OM was still lying to her.

I think she is all about protecting her M and her H's career now.

Don't feel badly about alerting her. You did the right thing.





Posted By: ouchthathurt Re: WW waffling between us - 04/30/10 04:36 PM
She hasn't bought into anything. She didn't refute their relationship. She didn't argue that you were lying about the call. What's happened, is that her world has collapsed. Her husband is under investigation. He will probably lose his career. OR, he is the one who is e-mailing you back and it's his world that is collapsing. He has already thrown your wife under the bus. He has been ordered not to speak or contact her in any way. And your wife has probably disobeyed a direct order in trying to contact him. That is what I read into it.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/30/10 04:41 PM
I'm sure, when OMW tells OM about your email, it will only make him angrier at WW for continuing to try to contact him.

Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/30/10 04:46 PM
You successfully killed the A.

THIS is a huge step towards recovering your M!



Posted By: ouchthathurt Re: WW waffling between us - 04/30/10 04:49 PM
In fact, on the chance that it was her husband intercepting your e-mail. I would send one last message. " As per your request, I will no longer contact you. The last message I sent you and the corresponding proof that there is still contact between your husband and my wife has been sent to command." This message alone will cause the pot to boil over. What's he going to do? Tell command to tell her to stop trying to contact him? Accept a call from her and tell her to never call him again? Either way he is toast. And most definitely the affair is over.
Posted By: Scotland Re: WW waffling between us - 04/30/10 05:09 PM
Gerka-You are doing well. Keep it up. You have done everything RIGHT up til now.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/30/10 05:38 PM
Quote
In fact, on the chance that it was her husband intercepting your e-mail.


If he hadn't intercepted the email, then his BW shared it w/ him right away. They are trying to save his career. So, it would make sense that she shared it w/ him before she sent her reply to Gerk.

My best guess is that she already knew WW has been trying to contact OM. OM has probably been telling his BW about it. They are both trying to figure out how they can save his career.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 04/30/10 05:39 PM
Quote
I would send one last message. " As per your request, I will no longer contact you. The last message I sent you and the corresponding proof that there is still contact between your husband and my wife has been sent to command."


I agree 100%! Let OMW / OM know what's coming... remember, this is war and OM and your W fired the first shots...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 04/30/10 06:27 PM
Think about it, Gerk, what other reply could she give you?

If she said, "I know, your stupid WW won't stop calling him!"

That email can be used against him...remember, she isn't sure you have hard proof that WW called OM..and even if she was, she wouldn't want to add to it.

If she says, "Thanks for letting me know, I'll keep an eye on him." Same problem. Another e-mail that could be used against him.

I'm certain they are freaking out that you know WW has disobeyed orders by trying to have contact w/ OM.

Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 05/01/10 03:22 AM
Morning Gurka!

Hope you are doing well this morning... I think you have things well in hand with regards to exposure and ending the A.

It will take some time for you W to "get over" her 'in-lurve' feelings for OM...of course, his not answering her calls are a HUGE love-buster for her and will help end the A.

I'm sure OM fed her some of the standard lines about them being "soul-mates" and how they would "always" be together, and for her not to worry about "getting caught", blah blah blah... She's remembering all of this and starting to realize that it was all just a lie.

When the chips were down, OM dropped her without a second thought and went back to his W... That's why it's so important for you to keep up a good Plan-A. Regardless of how this turns out, SHE will know that when the "cips were down" that YOU stood by her and tried to save the M

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/01/10 03:27 AM
Good morning all. No reply to my email to WW. Looks like she's hijacked our netflix account today. I no longer have any access to it.
Posted By: ouchthathurt Re: WW waffling between us - 05/01/10 03:59 AM
rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/01/10 04:21 AM
All of these accounts are joint property that she's depriving me of, in violation of the temporary injunction...
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/01/10 06:17 AM
She also never said she received the bear I sent her. Her birthday is on the May 25th, I was planning on sending her a Disney Collection of DVDs (she loves Disney movies) with every Disney movie ever made. The time window for mailing something from here to her is rapidly closing though.

Are birthday presents out? What should I do?
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 05/01/10 09:43 AM
Hey Gurka!

Our NIPR net has been down all morning so I had to wait until lunch to come back to my CHU and check in with you...

Don't know anything about what can or can't happen if she breaks the terms of the agreement, so I'll leave that to some of the others.

As for the Disney DVD's, I think that would be an excellent birthday gift for her. I wouldn't make a huge deal about it, maybe say something along the lines of:

"I know how much you love the Disney movies, so I thought that you would like this. Happy Birthday - Gurka"

Oh, did you get a reply from your BN Cdr regarding the additional phone logs that show your W calling the OM's phone?

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/01/10 09:53 AM
It's not an agreement, it's a temporary injunction automatically issued by the court whenever someone files petition for divorce. She is immediately bound by it upon filing the petition. She is in contempt of court and subject to arrest and prosecution for interfering with judicial process. But I don't think jail will help our marriage.

I just didn't know if birthday gifts were acceptable during Plan A. She seems pretty intent on not talking to me at the moment.

No reply from BN commander. He does have a battalion (of 80 soldiers!) to run though.
Posted By: Scotland Re: WW waffling between us - 05/01/10 12:57 PM
Birthday gifts are ABSOLUTELY part of Plan A. In PLan A, you are changing into the person who you really want to be. The best Husband and man YOU are. No Expectations though. Also, you don't want it to be too "in your face." It should be something that is the "norm" for you. You are practicing for a time when you will have a glorious marriage(whether it is with Mrs Gerka or the new Mrs.Gerka).
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/01/10 01:13 PM
To be fair I've always given great gifts, a lot of times for no reason. When confronted about the affair, WW was vilifying our marriage and said, "Cute gifts and flowers all the time don't make a marriage!"

The Disney DVDs are on the way. I'll continue to kill with kindness.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 05/01/10 03:20 PM
Quote
The Disney DVDs are on the way. I'll continue to kill with kindness.


Remember, NO (Positive) expectations... You should be expecting a mean, spiteful e-mail from her telling you that she hates you, that the marriage is over, that you've ruined any chance you had because you ratted her and OM out, stop sending her stuff.... blah blah blah

Remember, it will take her some time to get over her anger and her feelings for the OM. Hopefully, his ignoring her phone calls will speed this process up a bit!

Semper Fi,

RIF

Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/01/10 03:28 PM
Well I didn't get a reply to the t-shirt thank you. Should I continue to send short, positive emails every 3 or 4 days or so?
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 05/01/10 03:42 PM
Yeah, I think every 3-4 days is about right...
Posted By: Bob_Pure Re: WW waffling between us - 05/01/10 03:46 PM
Communications should be evidence of some EN-supporting behaviour however. "chat" annoys the doot out of active waywards.

You know what her high ENs are Gerk ?
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/01/10 03:51 PM
Affection, conversation, sex are both of our top 3.
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: WW waffling between us - 05/01/10 04:07 PM
**Edit**
Posted By: Bob_Pure Re: WW waffling between us - 05/01/10 04:11 PM
"Baby I was remembering that time we spent in *******. You looked so beautiful, and we laughed about **** till we almost cried.

My favorite part was ****

Good times !"

etc

Conversation, affection and a reminder of what CAN be between you without begging or haranguing.

Do not expect a nice response however. Reminders of great times you had will sting and she may deal with them harshly for a while yet.
Posted By: Bob_Pure Re: WW waffling between us - 05/01/10 04:14 PM
Helpthelostdads

Plan B may be a good idea, but it has to follow the best plan A possible else it is just " separation".

Gerk is in a tight spot regarding being able to meet his WWs top ENs but it is right and necessary to make the most of this circumstance before going to plan B if Gerk wants to try to save his marriage.

You may not choose the same path in his circumstances, but thats ok, because you don't have to. He has chosen his path please support him in it.

All blessings.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/01/10 04:32 PM
helpthelostdads, I understand what you're saying, and I may be saying the same thing some day.

But I love my wife. I value her and our relationship. I've made a lot of promises that I intend to keep. "For better or worse" doesn't just go out the window when "worse" comes along. I'll fight until I can't fight anymore, and hope that she comes around. It won't be fast and it won't be easy, and it'll hurt more than a little. But that's usually how doing the right thing goes, in my experience.
Posted By: AnnaBelleRose Re: WW waffling between us - 05/01/10 04:34 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
helpthelostdads, I understand what you're saying, and I may be saying the same thing some day.

But I love my wife. I value her and our relationship. I've made a lot of promises that I intend to keep. "For better or worse" doesn't just go out the window when "worse" comes along. I'll fight until I can't fight anymore, and hope that she comes around. It won't be fast and it won't be easy, and it'll hurt more than a little. But that's usually how doing the right thing goes, in my experience.

Good for you. I feel the same way about my sitch. Keep strong.
Posted By: Arpeggi Re: WW waffling between us - 05/01/10 04:54 PM
**edit***
Posted By: Revera Re: WW waffling between us - 05/01/10 05:02 PM
This poster has asked for help in saving his marriage. If you can help him in that regard, then please post. Otherwise, you should refrain from posting.
Posted By: ouchthathurt Re: WW waffling between us - 05/01/10 07:25 PM
G,

Just be consistent. Every 3 or 4 days e-mail her. I can assure you, that she reads everyone. She's just a little preoccupied at this point. Did you ever forward the additional proof that your wife has tried to contact the OM? I live in AZ too, the weather has been cool (45 last night). But I can assure you that things are going to get very hot (literally & figuratively) for your wife very soon.
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: WW waffling between us - 05/01/10 07:37 PM
**Edit**

Posted By: Arpeggi Re: WW waffling between us - 05/01/10 08:10 PM
**EDIT**

STOP!!!!!
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 05/01/10 09:18 PM
Quote
But I love my wife. I value her and our relationship. I've made a lot of promises that I intend to keep. "For better or worse" doesn't just go out the window when "worse" comes along. I'll fight until I can't fight anymore, and hope that she comes around. It won't be fast and it won't be easy, and it'll hurt more than a little. But that's usually how doing the right thing goes, in my experience.


Wow...

Gurka - I told BobPure that he and his Squid were going to make it way back in 2004... it was a long hard road for both of them, but they HAVE made it. The reason that I told BP this was because he displayed the same maturity and determination to fight for his M that you are showing!

The MB program works. It doesn't work for everyone, but IMHO, one of the most important factors is when a BH/BW sets their mind to doing whatever it takes and showing their WS their love by their consistant actions.

You may eventually decide that your efforts are not worth the pain later on down the road, and that will be OK if you do... If you do decide to divorce, I can assure you that you will do so knowing that you've done absolutely everything that you could to try and save your M.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/02/10 05:34 AM
I'll continue with the emails, talk about what I've been doing and throw in some good memories too. So I'll send the next one Monday night.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 05/02/10 06:19 AM
Hey Gurka,

Sounds like a good plan. BobPure has LOTS of experience with the exposure stage and Plan-A immediately afterwards when your W will be in withdrawal from the OM...

You're doing great and hope your having a safe day over there today!

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/02/10 07:05 AM
Yeah, I feel like this would all be so different if I could just be there with her. It's easy for her to distance herself from our marriage when I'm on the other side of the planet.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 05/02/10 09:28 AM
Hey Gurka,

It is best if you could be with your W, but I also think there are some positives from the separation. You don't have to deal with the day by day anger that your W most surely wants to direct at you... You can pretty much control your actions and show her your best side through e-mails/chat/phone calls... where as if you were there full time, you'd have many more opportunities to "lose it" and blow up at her.

I do think that once the A is over and your W is through with her withdrawal, that you should do everything you can to try and get stationed together. It will much more important for you guys to be together then in order for you to show her your consistent loving actions.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/02/10 09:54 AM
Well she can definitely get stationed at Fort Polk... if she wants to. She was on track for it. But she said in one of her angry emails that she's "no longer coming to Fort Polk." She would be in my unit, really low tempo, plenty of time to spend together.

But if she doesn't change her mind and decide to work on the marriage, and want to enough to PCS to Fort Polk, then there's nothing I can do about it.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/02/10 11:19 AM
So the idea here is that I continue to try to meet ENs and make deposits, and eventually she'll start talking about the relationship?
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 05/02/10 12:23 PM
Quote
So the idea here is that I continue to try to meet ENs and make deposits, and eventually she'll start talking about the relationship?


Hey Gurka- Yes, that pretty much sums it up.

Right now, your W has re-written your entire relationship from the time you first met, to when you got married, to the present. Her "feeling" are for the OM and that's what's pushing back all of the "good" memories from the past.

Your goal during Plan-A is to show your W that you are still a good husband and help her re-connect with you. This is easier said than done because of her "feelings" for the OM... that is MB always recommends exposure because it's the best way to end the A.

Your W most likely won't want to re-engage with you in rebuilding the M right away. It may take a while for her to deal with her conflicting feelings between her and the OM. I do think that the investigations will go a LONG way in speeding this process along, especially if there is some serious punishment...

The next "phase" is pobably the most difficult phase because YOU will be doing all of he work, and most likely, you won't be getting ANYTHING in return. Again, only you can decide how long you are willing to stay in this phase... its mentally draining, and it's very painful to see your love tossed aside by your W.

Hopefully, after a period of time, your W will start coming around and will be willing to work with you in rebuilding.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 05/02/10 12:37 PM
Quote
But if she doesn't change her mind and decide to work on the marriage, and want to enough to PCS to Fort Polk, then there's nothing I can do about it.


Hey Gurka,

You're exactly right... This will be a huge decision point for you. If she is allowed to remain in the Army, her decision on whether or not to move to Ft. Polk with you will speak volumes as to what direction she is heading.

I wouldn't worry too much about her decision right now, because she hasn't even started her basic course yet, right?

So it will be at least 4-6 months before she would even PCS to her first duty station. If she is released from Active Duty, again, whether or not she moves there with you will give you a good idea of what you'll be up against.

You don't have to decide what you'll do if she does or doesn't move to Ft. Polk, so try not to worry about that for now.

Stay focused on being the best husband you can for her and showing her by your actions that you love her.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Bob_Pure Re: WW waffling between us - 05/02/10 03:09 PM
RIF is right. Separation makes plan A difficult but not impossible.

Putting it simply plan A is to convince your WWs peripherl heart's vision that:

* you have wonderful, lovable traits
* you are so prepared to improve yourself as a husband for her you have already begun stowing lovebusters and meeting ENs
* you are not expecting her to eat a doot sandwich every day or her whole life as long as she repents and reinvests in your marriage.

This is for two main reasons:

1) Actions speak louder than words in showing your WW your best side
2) If plan A alone does not lead to a reconciliation between you it will ensure you leave the best possible vision of yourself with her before you go Plan B. This is what eats at wayward hearts and causes them to end their affairs over time.

Affection and conversation can be met long distance reasonably well. there is hope here if you plan.

all blessings

Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 05/02/10 06:36 PM
Quote
* you are not expecting her to eat a doot sandwich every day or her whole life as long as she repents and reinvests in your marriage.


Hey BobP - I've got to ask... what isa "doot" sandwich??? Is that like a Marmite or Vegimite sandwich???

Hey Gurka - Hope you've had a good Sunday evening... Any word from your BN Cdr on the new phone records that show attempted contact?

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/02/10 06:42 PM
No, but I didn't really expect to hear anything on a weekend.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 05/02/10 06:45 PM
I keep forgetting about "weekends"... every day is pretty much the same over here... one Groundhog day after another!
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/02/10 06:54 PM
Yeah, I emailed him on Friday, he'll probably hit me back tomorrow.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 05/02/10 07:03 PM
You mean he doesn't have a Black Berry???? How in the world does he function?

Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/02/10 07:09 PM
AKO email. Emailing from our SWA exchange server to the one back at Fort Polk has proved unreliable. No notice of the message not getting through, it just doesn't.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 05/02/10 07:18 PM
I hate AKO! I forward all of my AKO mail to my "regular" mail so I don't have to log onto AKO. cool
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/02/10 07:25 PM
Yeah AKO is painfully slow.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 05/02/10 07:31 PM
Well, it's getting late over here... I'll catch you tomorrow Gurka.

Stay safe and get some rest!

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Bob_Pure Re: WW waffling between us - 05/02/10 10:48 PM
Quote
"doot" sandwich???

Poop ! laugh
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 05/03/10 03:42 AM
Good Morning Gurka!

Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/03/10 04:23 AM
Good morning RIF! Busy day here. The MG is here to visit and meet everyone in the office... so everyone's running around like a chicken with their head cut off.

I'll work up a draft email for my WW later today and put it on here for review...
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 05/03/10 05:21 AM
Nothing like having a GO in your area to get people all spun up...

Look forward to seeing your next e-mail...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/03/10 06:03 AM
I was thinking:

How was your weekend? We went out and did some training at the range (pictures are on facebook.) I had some pizza last night and it reminded me of all the times we went to Campisi's, split a salad and a pizza and just sat there and talked for a couple hours. You always looked so beautiful in the candle light. That's the kind of thing I'd like to do with you again. I've been super busy today, lots of work getting the interpreter systems up and running. I hope you're doing ok. Did you ever get my package from Bagram?
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 05/03/10 07:49 AM
Quote
That's the kind of thing I'd like to do with you again.


I'd take this out... the rest of of your e-mail looks fine.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Bob_Pure Re: WW waffling between us - 05/03/10 09:00 AM
Yep, what RIF said. Carefully remove anything even slightly needy. Otherwise is great ( y)
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/03/10 09:09 AM
Roger that.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/03/10 11:10 AM
I got an email from Netflix for one free month for friends and family. Sent From: My wife.

Talk about rubbing it in my face...
Posted By: Vittoria Re: WW waffling between us - 05/03/10 11:40 AM
Quote
But I love my wife. I value her and our relationship. I've made a lot of promises that I intend to keep. "For better or worse" doesn't just go out the window when "worse" comes along. I'll fight until I can't fight anymore, and hope that she comes around. It won't be fast and it won't be easy, and it'll hurt more than a little. But that's usually how doing the right thing goes, in my experience.
smile
Your maturity continues to amaze me.
Your WW is one lucky person to have you as a husband, Gurka.


I like this last email too, and agree with the changes.
As long as she is disengaged, stick with the facts of the past (good memories), the present (holding to your M vows), and avoid talk of future activities right now.

This might be a good time to make a list of happy experiences that the two of you shared, ones that you can use in future emails. Little tid bits here and there, you know.

I'm still wondering about this spousal support thing you guys.
Is there anything that you can do Gurka to protect yourself from this happening?
While the goal here is to restore the M, there is also the goal of protecting the BS along the way from the repercussions of the unknown.

Gurka, I don't know what Netflix is and how it's a slap in the face??? Sorry.





Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 05/03/10 12:41 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
You always looked so beautiful in the candle light.

I'd defer to some of the other posters, but I think this part is laying it on a little too thick as well. Pretend you were talking to just a friend. Your friend was probably on board until you weirded her out with the "beautiful in the candle light" part. Keep it light. You want SUBTLE reminders of the good days in the past.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/03/10 12:43 PM
Originally Posted by jmwc95
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
You always looked so beautiful in the candle light.

I'd defer to some of the other posters, but I think this part is laying it on a little too thick as well. Pretend you were talking to just a friend. Your friend was probably on board until you weirded her out with the "beautiful in the candle light" part. Keep it light. You want SUBTLE reminders of the good days in the past.


Too late, already shot out.
Posted By: Vittoria Re: WW waffling between us - 05/03/10 01:24 PM
The candlelight line .......

I read this as a subtle way of saying 'I still love you', without actually saying those words. A tid bit.
Had there been more of these kinds of statements, I might think overkill. JMO. smile
Posted By: aussieswife Re: WW waffling between us - 05/03/10 01:42 PM
sorry for the TJ gerka smile

Quote
Hey BobP - I've got to ask... what isa "doot" sandwich??? Is that like a Marmite or Vegimite sandwich???

and WHATS wrong with a Vegemite Sammy RIF ??? toe tap
TJ over laugh

Gerka Bob & RIF along with others are giving you great advice. You know that I was FWW with (still) professional soldier husband, son and SIL. There is nothing you can say or do to fix your WW ... that is entirely her job... be assured I know that is a fact. YOU need never doubt that.

YOU are doing all that you can and doing it as well as I have ever seen... even if it hurts like crazy ... and THAT dear Mr G takes courage of an entirely different kind.

take care...
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 05/03/10 02:06 PM
TJ Gurka...

Hey AW! I actually LIKE Vegimite on toast as long as it's got lots of butter on it! They sell it at the World Market back home in TX...

Hey Gurka, I'll second what AW said.... you ARE handling this much better most of the posters that I've seen during the 8 years that I've been here!

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/03/10 02:12 PM
Hope the candlelight line wasn't too much. Not that I expect any response at all. We're 14 days past exposure today.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 05/03/10 02:21 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
Hope the candlelight line wasn't too much. Not that I expect any response at all. We're 14 days past exposure today.

If we're right about the A ending, then she is going through w/drawals right now. And w/drawals really suck. A bit of admiring right now isn't as distasteful as it would have been when her A was active.

But, still don't expect any kind of decent reply from her.

Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 05/03/10 03:20 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
Hope the candlelight line wasn't too much. Not that I expect any response at all. We're 14 days past exposure today.

In the big picture it doesn't really affect anything, but sappy lines are more likely to have your WW see through your attempt to meet her need for conversation, so she'll just shut you down. She's got a wall up right now, and any blatant attempt to meet her needs will be met with resistance. You basically need to "trick" her into allowing you to meet her need for conversation so she lets her guard down and is receptive. You know what I mean? It's like trying to pick up a girl at a bar. Would you have success walking up to a girl and telling her, "Are you from Tennessee? Because you're the only ten I see!" Or would your chances be better if you had a wingman you pretended not to know walk in with a cheesy line while you were standing next to her, and then when he got rejected, you say something to her about how bad a line that was, thus starting some small talk between the two of you (trust me, that worked last month for a friend of mine)? It's all about playing the game of cat and mouse. Don't play harder, play smarter.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 05/03/10 03:35 PM
Quote
Talk about rubbing it in my face...


Hey Gurka - You'll hear and see a good bit of this while your W is in the withdrawal phase. Expect more of the same...

Not easy, but at least you are here and can vent BEFORE you reply to her e-mail or her latest "action".

As for the candlelight comment, I wouldn't worry about it... You're tossing crumbs at her just to keep the lines of communication open and show her in a very non-threatening way that you love her.

Semper Fi,

RIF

PS - Any word from your BN Cdr? ...and how did the GO visit go?
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/03/10 04:10 PM
Nothing from my BN commander. MG's visit was uneventful. I work for a BG (I'm his g6,) so I deal with GOs quite a bit. I'm going to be screwed when I get back to the states; I'm so used to telling LTCs how jacked up they are and how they need to fix themselves. laugh
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 05/03/10 04:16 PM
Quote
I'm so used to telling LTCs how jacked up they are and how they need to fix themselves.


rotflmao Now THAT'S funny!!! I don't care who you are! rotflmao

Posted By: Just Learning Re: WW waffling between us - 05/03/10 05:12 PM
Yup,

I can see some attitude adjustment coming when you rotate back. cool

JL
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 05/03/10 07:05 PM
Hey Gurka - Get some rest and let us know if you hear anything from your BN Cd or wife tomorow.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/04/10 03:23 AM
Haven't heard anything yet.
Posted By: KiwiJ Re: WW waffling between us - 05/04/10 05:18 AM
Gerka, I'm an FWW and I thought your last email was PERFECT. WWs are craving all the sappy stuff. They (we) think that our H's are not capable of it - we think the OM is the only person who can be romantic or sappy.

I liked the whole email - the candlelight, everything.
Posted By: KiwiJ Re: WW waffling between us - 05/04/10 05:19 AM
And, all you guys who are doubting, that's right from the horse's mouth. wink

It was when my H said not long after d-day "I'm a man, never forget that, and you're my woman" I went all weak at the knees.
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: WW waffling between us - 05/04/10 05:38 AM
Thank you for your service and my prayers are with you gerk
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/04/10 08:42 AM
As expected, no response. It poured rain here today, which caused some of the afghan roses to bloom. I took some pretty good pictures. So in my next email to her, I can "send her some flowers." wink
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 05/04/10 09:44 AM
Hey Gurka,

That sounds like a great idea... You must have gotten the rain that we had a day or so ago. We've still got standing water in some spots.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/04/10 01:15 PM
I haven't been carrying my cell phone with me for some time. I got a call at 0930 from a Fort Polk number. the area code and the first 3 digits of the number are the same as the OM. Seems likely this is the OM's wife. But how would she get my Afghan cell phone number? Only my WW has it.... Weird. Should I call it back tomorrow at 0930?
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: WW waffling between us - 05/04/10 01:44 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
I haven't been carrying my cell phone with me for some time. I got a call at 0930 from a Fort Polk number. the area code and the first 3 digits of the number are the same as the OM. Seems likely this is the OM's wife. But how would she get my Afghan cell phone number? Only my WW has it.... Weird. Should I call it back tomorrow at 0930?

Sure. Find out what's going on.
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: WW waffling between us - 05/04/10 02:02 PM
It could also be a member of the investigation team.

Call the number back.

If it is the OMW, then you know. If its someone else? Then you will know.

LG
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/04/10 02:08 PM
There's no investigation at Fort Polk. Besides it's an AT&T cell phone number, I know that much. And very similar to OM's phone number. I tried looking it up but Intelius is acting all messed up right now. Only lets me choose between paying by credit card over phone or by personal check, wtf?
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 05/04/10 03:25 PM
Quote
I got a call at 0930 from a Fort Polk number. the area code and the first 3 digits of the number are the same as the OM. Seems likely this is the OM's wife.


Hey Gurka - I thought the OM and his W were at Ft. Sill... Why would OMW be calling from a 337 area code?

Do you think it might be from your Bn Cdr?

I agree with the others, call back and see who you get!

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/04/10 03:47 PM
Their cell phones are 337
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 05/04/10 03:53 PM
Ok... I'd give the number a call. It's just 1052hs there now.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/04/10 03:59 PM
They're trying to send us all home in 10 days. I'm the only guy in my unit fighting to stay in Afghanistan. hah.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/04/10 04:00 PM
I'll call it tomorrow morning around the same time they called me.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/04/10 04:06 PM
I wasn't planning on telling WW that I have the opportunity to come back to the states in 10 days. I feel like at this point she just wants me to come back so she can push ahead with the divorce. Though I feel like this conflicts with "honesty and openness."
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 05/04/10 04:20 PM
I would probably suggest going home. Sure, you may be able to get divorced quicker, but you'd also be able to plan A better from the same continent. Your WW is either going to divorce you or she's not going to divorce you, postinging things by staying in that God forsaken land is not going to benefit you any. Besides, the worst time after exposure and withdrawal is the first two weeks. You've already missed that. If you can come home in 10 days, I would tell her you are coming home, you are going to Fort Huachuca (sp?), and it's up to her as to whether or not she wants to see you, but you'll be there. It's the first thing you are doing when you get home. I know it would suck to go to the middle of nowhere and have her not see you, but you've got to put yourself out there if you want to reengage her.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 05/04/10 04:28 PM
Quote
Though I feel like this conflicts with "honesty and openness.


So are they ORDERING you to go home?

I don't think that you'd be dishonest by not telling her about the early re-deployment... now if she asked you directly, then I wouldn't lie to her.

I agree, staying over here might be a better COA for now in order to give more time for her to withdraw from the OM and not give her the opportunity to rush the divorce...

Is your CoC supporting you staying in theater longer?

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/04/10 04:36 PM
Well the thing is, I have my actual (rating) CoC that's back in the states. Obviously they want me back, because I'm not doing anything for them over here. Then I have my opcon CoC, that desperately wants me to stay because they would be hosed without me, and have no replacement on the horizon. So they're duking it out. My opcon chain of command has a lot more GOs pulling for them, so we'll see what happens. I should know in the next day or so if I get to stay.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: WW waffling between us - 05/04/10 05:54 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
I wasn't planning on telling WW that I have the opportunity to come back to the states in 10 days. I feel like at this point she just wants me to come back so she can push ahead with the divorce. Though I feel like this conflicts with "honesty and openness."

Have you considered going home to fight for your M?
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/04/10 06:10 PM
WW says she won't see me alone. She doesn't respond to my emails. She's furious right now. Plus the investigations are still ongoing.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 05/04/10 06:30 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
WW says she won't see me alone. She doesn't respond to my emails. She's furious right now. Plus the investigations are still ongoing.

WWs say a lot of things that aren't true. At some point you are going to have to try to see her in person and reengage her in the relationship. Sure, while the investigation is ongoing or in the week or two after the investigation is over might not be the best time, but the longer you go without seeing her, the further she can withdraw from you. You need to get her from withdrawal back to conflict. Something has to spark that movement, and it's likely a visit. You can't make her see you, but you can make yourself available to be seen. I'm not saying now is the time, but once she is most of the way through withdrawal of the OM (about 2 months), you would like her to attach herself back to you instead of some other man. She will be very vulnerable by herself in another month or two, and if you aren't somewhat back in the picture by then, she'll likely find another boyfriend to start meeting her needs. It will likely be with someone who is actually single, she'll tell them that "she's in the process of getting a divorce," and she will be more careful about getting caught.

I'm just saying I wouldn't actively postpone going home for too long.
Posted By: ouchthathurt Re: WW waffling between us - 05/04/10 06:36 PM
It would be easier to plan A stateside. I am sure the affair is over. She may even see you. And I don't think she won't see you because of anger. More like shame. She seems to be a bit of a drama queen, and may not be able to resist seeing you. She really can't take up with anyone else while you guys are still married. Just a thought.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/04/10 06:36 PM
Max time I can stay here is until July 21st anyway. I'm about 90% sure that if I went back to the states in 10 days, and flew to AZ all I'd get is served divorce papers.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 05/04/10 06:38 PM
Hey Gurka,

I can see positives from staying in A-Stan, and from going home.

Even if you go home, she will be at Ft. Huachuca and you'll be at Ft. Polk, right? So you most likely wouldn't be together anyway until she completes her OBC class. If she ends up getting booted out of the Army, then by all means, I would get home as fast as you can...

Do you think that your OPCON Cdr will allow you to say long enough to get a replacement for you? That would give you a little more time to dodge the Divorce papers, with the understanding that you wouldn't be stuck over here for the entire 6 months.

I do agree that it would be best if you could physically be together... but if you can't because of her OBC, then I'd stick around in A-Stan for a litte while longer...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: karmasrose Re: WW waffling between us - 05/04/10 06:38 PM
I bet she's stewing just waiting for you to get back so she can give you the papers. My advice (such as it is) is to wait.

And Plan A where you can.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/04/10 06:41 PM
If I can dodge the papers until August 19th they'll "expire" and they'd have to be filed again. I'm thinking by then she'll have calmed down a lot, and my steady, positive contact may have given her reason to hope for us again.

I think she's almost definitely stewing. She hasn't responded to any emails. Hasn't even asked about the divorce papers she sent.
Posted By: karmasrose Re: WW waffling between us - 05/04/10 06:44 PM
Well of course not, she wants you to sign and send 'em back. Do you think you can last that long? Til August that is.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 05/04/10 07:07 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
I'm about 90% sure that if I went back to the states in 10 days, and flew to AZ all I'd get is served divorce papers.

So you're saying there's a chance?

[Linked Image from letterstorob.files.wordpress.com]
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 03:28 AM
Well, she wrote back to my email from Monday:

I like how u got the message to stop putting money in my account but can't understand that I don't want to talk to you or hear from you EVER again
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

Is this something I should respond to?
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 03:41 AM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
Well, she wrote back to my email from Monday:

I like how u got the message to stop putting money in my account but can't understand that I don't want to talk to you or hear from you EVER again
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

Is this something I should respond to?

What do you think?

NO WAY!

Explain the not putting money in my account thing for me.

Again, she says she never wants to talk to you again, yet she hasn't blocked you and still responds to you. That doesn't sound like someone who doesn't want to talk to you. Maybe something just happened with her investigation to provoke her to lash out at you right now.

Just send something out again as planned later in the week. Only respond to your wife, not your wayward wife.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 03:42 AM
Quote
...but can't understand that I don't want to talk to you or hear from you EVER again


Right... so that's why she sent you this text. She doesn't want to hear from you EVER again!!!

Seems like we've heard this before. I wouldn't reply becuase there really isn't anything you can say. She is obviously trying to bait you into a discussion.

Wait a couple of days, then send her another "I'm doing fine" e-mail...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 04:36 AM
Right. I wonder if she was stomping her feet when she wrote that email.

How does she expect to get any of her stuff from my house without ever talking to me again? Just seems like angry lashing out.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 06:31 AM
Also, the not putting money in the account thing...

I've been putting $1000 in her account every month to help her pay off her credit cards. When the affair came out, she said she didn't want any more of my money. Despite the fact that her intent was to keep the affair a secret, not tell me about it until I returned to the states, and continue to take the money...
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 09:50 AM
Quote
I've been putting $1000 in her account every month to help her pay off her credit cards. When the affair came out, she said she didn't want any more of my money. Despite the fact that her intent was to keep the affair a secret, not tell me about it until I returned to the states, and continue to take the money...


...and even if she doesn't say so, you are making deposits in her love bank!

Did you ever call the 337 number?

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 10:04 AM
Yes. It was a CPT that's here in Afghanistan, just calling to chat. Weird he has such a similar phone number to the OM. Small town I guess.

My friends seem to think that by sending these little positive emails that my wife will just get angrier and angrier and feel like I'm ignoring "the issues." And that she won't "miss me" if I stay in contact.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 10:19 AM
Quote
Weird he has such a similar phone number to the OM.


As you move down this road, you'll find all sorts of little reminders along the way... for me as a BH, these little 'triggers' were everywhere. For now, you're doing great with keeping your focus!

Quote
My friends seem to think that by sending these little positive emails that my wife will just get angrier and angrier and feel like I'm ignoring "the issues." And that she won't "miss me" if I stay in contact.


Yep, just about EVERYTHING about MB runs contrary to "conventional wisdom"... MB works! Are these friends familiar with MB? It's good to hear all sides, but you are executing a proven program...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 12:18 PM
Respond by putting money in the account!

You are plan Aing her!!



Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 12:25 PM
Quote
My friends seem to think that by sending these little positive emails that my wife will just get angrier and angrier and feel like I'm ignoring "the issues." And that she won't "miss me" if I stay in contact.


Ask them which issues are you ignoring? The ones where she says she wants you to sign the D papers? Or the ones where she says she'll never talk to you again?

How can you do anything else BUT ignore those?

The money in the account is another matter though. That is an issue you shouldn't ignore.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 12:28 PM
Originally Posted by Marshmallow
Respond by putting money in the account!

You are plan Aing her!!

Umm... does anyone else think this is a good idea? Should I continue to give her $1000 a month?
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 12:33 PM
Why wouldn't you continue doing this, Gerk?

Plan A is about meeting as many of her ENs as you can. Financial security is an EN.

Especially to someone who may lose her job soon.



Posted By: karmasrose Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 12:33 PM
I think I'd stop, because if not you are setting a precedent and the courts may continue to make you keep doing it...but that's just my idea.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 12:37 PM
Yeah, I've been told that it establishes a pattern of support.

Also financial security is her dead last emotional need (mine too.) We make the same amount of money.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 12:39 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
Originally Posted by Marshmallow
Respond by putting money in the account!

You are plan Aing her!!

Umm... does anyone else think this is a good idea? Should I continue to give her $1000 a month?

I might not just put in $1000 a month, but with her birthday coming up, I might just surprise her with a little spending cash. You want to meet her need for financial support without enabling her. Maybe in the near future if she starts talking to you again and you have verified NC with OM for say, two months, then I might start doing it again. I would possibly consult your JAG officer to see if that money can be recouped or deducted from a settlement in the future. If it can, sure, give her the money in the near future.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 12:43 PM
I already sent a ~$200 birthday present...
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 12:44 PM
Quote
Also financial security is her dead last emotional need (mine too.) We make the same amount of money.


Often people will say this is their last EN when it is being met! But, take their job away and watch how quickly this EN will move to the top of their list.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 12:55 PM
Quote
You want to meet her need for financial support without enabling her. Maybe in the near future if she starts talking to you again and you have verified NC with OM for say, two months, then I might start doing it again.


She was using the money to pay off her CC, she was not using it on the A.

Plan B is about letting her get a taste of what life w/o Gerk is like. She's getting a taste of it in Plan A.

Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 01:03 PM
Right. If she actually gets booted out of the Army I'd have no problem supporting her financially (and would be legally obligated to since we're married.)
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 01:09 PM
Oh, and I've also bought a laptop for her sister as a wedding present (she's getting married late in May.)
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 01:10 PM
It's up to you, Gerk, but right now you're only TRYING to meet a couple of her ENs. If you put money in her account, you'd know you WERE meeting at least one EN.

I think you're blowing a chance to actually score points w/ her. She mentioned the money b/c in her eyes, she isn't worth the financial effort to you.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 01:13 PM
She told me to stop putting money in her account though...
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 01:22 PM
I agree that she should have had financial support higher on her EN list. You take it for granted until the money stops flowing in. Depositing $1000/month is meeting a need. The question is at what price. I would consult a few more opinions on this matter. Maybe you could post another thread about the subject and poll the veterans. I would consult with the JAG officer to understand the PROBABLE financial impact of continuing to support her. In the end it's up to you about what you are comfortable with. I agree with Marsh, the email was a veiled reference to a need she would still like you to meet. That is why I asked you what she was referring to when she talked about the money. I think you sending her the money is showing your continued to commitment to the marriage and her continuing to accept the money may show that she may still be willing for you to meet some needs. Or she could just be using you. However, I think the subject is definitely worth exploring.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 01:25 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
She told me to stop putting money in her account though...

But when you put more in it, she spent it, right?

She also told you never to communicate to her again and she would do the same.

Listen, I am going to get a couple more vets to come to your thread and weigh in with some opinions to help you out.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 01:32 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
She told me to stop putting money in her account though...

And she also agreed not to fly out to say good bye to you... and we know how that went.

Your W is like many women. They want you to know that when they say, "Fine!" they don't mean everything is fine. They want you to read their minds. Pick up on their hints.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 01:35 PM
The bat signal has been launched. Hopefully some more vets (who have recovered the marriage, not the CH, HTLD types) can help you sort through all of this. I know it can all be quite confusing, but some of these posters are really good at picking up on these types of things, schoolbus especially.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 01:44 PM
IMO, if you continue sending the money it sends a signal that you are still committed to your M. If you stop it sends another signal - that you are coming around to her idea of D.

Continue Plan A and continue acting like a man who is married. That would include sending the money.

Just my thoughts.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 01:47 PM
She's asking you why you chose to believe she DOESN'T mean it when she tells you she doesn't want to hear from you again, but DO believe her when she told you she didn't need your FS?

I'd say, "Good point, baby, here's some money."

Be consistent. Don't believe her on both accounts.

Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 01:49 PM
Hey Gurka - I say keep sending her the $1,000.00... You're making all that extra tax-free money while you're deployed! grin

No matter what she says, it will still be a LB deposit! (literally!)

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 01:52 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
My friends seem to think that by sending these little positive emails that my wife will just get angrier and angrier and feel like I'm ignoring "the issues." And that she won't "miss me" if I stay in contact.

That is what plan A is for. It's to act in the best possible way for about 3 months, and THEN when you go to plan B, she will miss you. You set 'em up in plan A, and knock 'em down in plan B.

Besides, "the issues" were her fooling around w/ OM. Hopefully that is not "the issue" anymore.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 01:57 PM
Alright, I'll deposit the money.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 02:03 PM
Good job!!

Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 02:11 PM
Oh, and I wouldn't literally say, "Good point, baby, here's some money."

Your deposit says everything you need to say.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 02:15 PM
Originally Posted by Marshmallow
Oh, and I wouldn't literally say, "Good point, baby, here's some money."

Your deposit says everything you need to say.

Let her find the money and feel petty about removing you from the Netflix account.

If she emails you back, "I told you not to send me money," just respond kindly, "You don't have to spend it, but it's there if you need it."
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 02:21 PM
Quote
If she emails you back, "I told you not to send me money," just respond kindly, "You don't have to spend it, but it's there if you need it."


Ditto!

Hey Gurka - With your BAS, HDP, HFP, FSA (not sure if you get that since you're dual mil), Per Diem, and CZTE, it's not really "costing" you anything, and trust me... it will pay BIG dividends later on down the road. loveheart

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: jessitaylor Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 03:00 PM
I really don't know what to say about continuing the $ every month. I think that taking care of your spouse is important and it tells a story of commitment and responsibility in the marriage.
In my case my husband and I drew up a separation agreement and were considered separate when it came to the finances....He was ending the marriage(A)
He has now come out of his A fog and has asked for a second chance in the marriage. We still live with the separation agreement when it comes to finances, my choice. Because he has a value system that taking care of your family is the way your suppose to do things the right way, it's important to him.. He would continue to pay for things he didn't have to because to him it was showing love........
I noticed everytime he did that when he didn't have to and I would say he must care or he wouldn't do this......I think your wife might think the same way when she is figuring things out in her head.......
It shows you still care and that is enough for right now.....
And she is still communicating with you, even though it's not loving yet.....
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 03:04 PM
In what can be only be described as totally unbelievable, my request to stay here in Afghanistan has been granted by my stateside CoC.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 03:14 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
In what can be only be described as totally unbelievable, my request to stay here in Afghanistan has been granted by my stateside CoC.

Congratulations? dontknow
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 03:17 PM
Quote
In what can be only be described as totally unbelievable, my request to stay here in Afghanistan has been granted by my stateside CoC.


Wooo Hooo!!!

Keep working your plan-A Gurka... Like I mentioned before, there are positives and negatives, so try to think on the positives...

- Divorce can't start while you're deployed
- You have the time and distance to help you "disconnect" from her anger
- You can still continue to Plan-A from here
- The investigation is still on, and it appears that the OM is out of the picture

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 03:23 PM
GG:

From the Plan A perspective, depositing the #1k for the next three months IS the thing to do.

If she is SO SURE in her actions, then in three months, there will still be $3k sitting there, right?

She will spend it. On attorneys, or C/C debt, or whatever.

Does it establish a pattern of support? Sure, if your ever obligated to pay support, which, if she stays in the military, you probably will not be required to do. Why? because you are both young, well educated, employed and married for a short time. If she gets thrown out, then you may be obligated to support her, is some manner, but I believe that $3k would not influence the decision as much as the number of months you have been putting the money in her account prior to this month. THAT earlier period of time may determine that you may have to send her money after the D.

LG
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 03:53 PM
Originally Posted by RIF
Quote
In what can be only be described as totally unbelievable, my request to stay here in Afghanistan has been granted by my stateside CoC.


Wooo Hooo!!!

Keep working your plan-A Gurka... Like I mentioned before, there are positives and negatives, so try to think on the positives...

- Divorce can't start while you're deployed
- You have the time and distance to help you "disconnect" from her anger
- You can still continue to Plan-A from here
- The investigation is still on, and it appears that the OM is out of the picture

Semper Fi,

RIF

I agree with all of the above.

If she's sincere, she won't touch the money. But I don't see that happening.

I also think it's weird that she waited a day and a half to reply to my email... from her phone, instead of from a computer. Seems likely she was mad about something right then and lashed out. It was like 2 in the afternoon her time when she sent it.

We'll see what she says about the money.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 04:05 PM
Quote
If she's sincere, she won't touch the money. But I don't see that happening.


You don't want her to be "sincere" about the money. You want her to let you meet her needs!

Quote
I also think it's weird that she waited a day and a half to reply to my email... from her phone, instead of from a computer. Seems likely she was mad about something right then and lashed out. It was like 2 in the afternoon her time when she sent it.


You could be right.

But, look at it this way, if she wasn't motivated by anger, you may never have realized how she was seing your inconsistencies.

...and you would never have taken a second look at how you could meet her FS need.





Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 04:17 PM
Quote
Seems likely she was mad about something right then and lashed out. It was like 2 in the afternoon her time when she sent it.


Hey Gurka - Is she in her OBC class now?

Nothing like getting a message between classes that might go something like this...

"Mrs. LT Gurka, please report to the commander at 1900hrs this evening"

Yeah, I'm speculating, but the investigation should be winding up pretty soon. I suspect that you'll be hearing from her once it's over, especially if she finds out that she's getting booted out of the army...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 04:19 PM
No, her OBC isn't even scheduled to start until mid-June.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 04:34 PM
So is she just doing odd jobs around the base while waiting for her class to start?
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 05:29 PM
She was working at the tax center. That job is gone, so I'm not sure what she's doing now.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 05:42 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
I also think it's weird that she waited a day and a half to reply to my email... from her phone, instead of from a computer. Seems likely she was mad about something right then and lashed out. It was like 2 in the afternoon her time when she sent it.

I'm not sure how things work, but could she have just been "reminded" that was was under order NOT to contact OM?
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 06:25 PM
Quote
I also think it's weird that she waited a day and a half to reply to my email... from her phone, instead of from a computer. Seems likely she was mad about something right then and lashed out. It was like 2 in the afternoon her time when she sent it.


It's also very possible that she had just talked to someone who warned her that she may indeed end up losing her job.

In which case, she'd be pretty worried about how she was going to pay her bills, no?
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 06:35 PM
Who knows. I guess we'll see if she does anything with the money.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 06:45 PM
She took the $1000 and moved it to her other account.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 06:51 PM
Chaa Ching!

You just made a LB deposit!
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 06:53 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
She took the $1000 and moved it to her other account.

That was fast. I guess she didn't want it afterall. MrRollieEyes
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 06:55 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
She took the $1000 and moved it to her other account.

LOL That WAS fast!

Good deal! You know you definitely met an EN!

AND...you know she didn't mean it when she told you to stop meeting FS. Which means there's a good chance she didn't mean it when she told you to stop talking to her either.
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 06:58 PM
You guys don't think that someone so angry would just be thinking "Pffft, fine, I'll take your money, idiot." ?
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 07:02 PM
Quote
You guys don't think that someone so angry would just be thinking "Pffft, fine, I'll take your money, idiot." ?


Of course it is possible.

Just like it's possible when a BW meets her WH's need for SF, that he'll be thinking, "Pffft, fine, if you're offering, I'll take it, idiot!"

You take a chance at being used....hoping to make a deposit in their LB.

Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 07:02 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
You guys don't think that someone so angry would just be thinking "Pffft, fine, I'll take your money, idiot." ?

That is another possibility, but she would have to be a real sociopath to do that. Besides, why would she tell you to stop sending her money in the first place then? Probably to ease her guilt. She may think that way now, but it will stir up more conflict and guilt inside her. She was using you "cutting her off" to justify you being the bad guy. Well, she no longer has that to rationalize her behavior anymore.

Also, she may not realize you are making a love bank deposit in the same way she might not have realized OM was making love bank deposits when they first met. If you make enough deposits (not all literally), the feelings may come back.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 07:06 PM
In Plan A, you are supposed to act as you always have in your M...only better.

Your Taker is rearing it's head, try to do something for yourself to settle it down.

And try not to expect a thankyou from her.

Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 07:13 PM
Quote
You guys don't think that someone so angry would just be thinking "Pffft, fine, I'll take your money, idiot." ?


Hey Gurka,

Yeah, she could be thinking this, in fact, she probably is!

Now, having said that, remember what your goal is during Plan-A... to show her your love by your actions and to present the best "Gurka" that you can.

You've pretty much nailed the EN of Financial Support... she's not going to say a thing to you about this right now, because she's still angry with you. ...but your ACTIONS are not going un-noticed. You might not see it right away, but it will have an effect on her.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 07:15 PM
Quote
but your ACTIONS are not going un-noticed. You might not see it right away, but it will have an effect on her.


Absolutely!

You gave her quite a bit of the STICK side of Plan A.

It's GREAT that you get the chance to offer the CARROT side of it...and a nice big one too !
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 07:20 PM
Originally Posted by Marshmallow
Absolutely!

You gave her quite a bit of the STICK side of Plan A.

It's GREAT that you get the chance to offer the CARROT side of it...and a nice big one too !

That sounds kinda dirty. laugh
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 07:24 PM
LOL!!
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 07:28 PM
Gerka,

If you get the chance to watch the movie, Fireproof, do so!

Posted By: MargieLoll Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 07:48 PM
Originally Posted by Marshmallow
Gerka,

If you get the chance to watch the movie, Fireproof, do so!

Ditto. I watched it with BH a little over a month ago. Very good, the site is helpful too.
Posted By: ouchthathurt Re: WW waffling between us - 05/05/10 08:37 PM
Fireproof is a great movie to watch. On a general note, A lot of people are telling you that your marriage cannot recover. Your marriage can survive. There is only one thing a marriage cannot survive. And your wife, as yet has not shown any sign of it. Marriage can survive the death of a parent, sibling, and even a child. It can survive financial ruination, sickness and even physical abuse. the one thing that marriage cannot survive is CONTEMPT. As yet your wife has not shown contempt.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 05/06/10 03:26 AM
Quote
If you get the chance to watch the movie, Fireproof, do so!


Good morning Gurka - I remember seeing Fireproof at the bazaars there in Kabul...

It's a great movie!

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/06/10 04:36 AM
Good morning all. I looked at Fireproof on Amazon, but it seemed to have a pretty religious tilt so I passed. Didn't hear anything from WW, but I agree that she's got to be thinking something now.
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 05/06/10 09:52 AM
Quote
...but it seemed to have a pretty religious tilt so I passed.

Hey Gurka,

It does have a religious "tilt"... but the concepts presented are right in line with the MB principles. No worries on the video!

As I said earlier, I wouldn't expect your W to say anything else until after the investigation is finished... then you'll probably get an ear full!

I did think it was interesting how quickly your wife moved the money into her account, and I still think that you did the right thing by giving it to her. It's just money, and if it builds good will with your wife, it's money well spent!

Hope your day is going well. It's starting to really warm up here and it won't be long before the lows will be in the upper 90's to low 100's... Glad I'll be heading home soon!

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Gerkaguards Re: WW waffling between us - 05/06/10 10:17 AM
Yeah, she snatched the money in a hurry. She could have used it to pay her credit cards from the account that I put it in, but she moved it off where I couldn't see it.

So I guess once you get home you'll have better things to do than babysit me on here. :P
Posted By: RIF Re: WW waffling between us - 05/06/10 10:45 AM
Quote
So I guess once you get home you'll have better things to do than babysit me on here.


Hey Gurka - I'm only going home for R&R around the end of this month.


I will NEVER leave a soldier behind...even when I re-deploy in August!.

I'll be here for you!!! wink

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Unfettered Re: WW waffling between us - 05/06/10 12:43 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
I looked at Fireproof on Amazon, but it seemed to have a pretty religious tilt so I passed.

Gerka,
I'm an atheist and I still enjoyed Fireproof. While the movie was commissioned by a church and there are some religious themes, the concepts it teaches are really pretty universal to good marriages and I would call them secular in nature. The biggest issue you will have to deal with is the slightly cheesy acting smile

Keep up the good work!
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WW waffling between us - 05/06/10 12:52 PM
Quote
The biggest issue you will have to deal with is the slightly cheesy acting


LOL

Yup. And technically, it was a little like watching a TV show.

But, the message was really good.

Gerk, It would be a pity you missed it b/c of the religious tilt. Seriously.
Posted By: MargieLoll Re: WW waffling between us - 05/06/10 12:54 PM
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
I looked at Fireproof on Amazon, but it seemed to have a pretty religious tilt so I passed.

I'm extremely non/anti-religious also and it was watchable. There were only a few religious parts that were easy to over look in the grand scheme of the movie. I'd still recommend seeing it.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: WW waffling between us - 05/06/10 02:14 PM
Seriously, what the hell is wrong with religion? I'm not a very religious person myself, but it drives me crazy that some people are so very threatened by the very notion of a God because they don't want to have to feel any guilt for the bad $hit they do. Get over it. Sure, there are some bad people the run some religions and some people that abuse it. How is that any different than anything else in life (business, politics, etc.)? Whether or not their is a higher power, the purpose of (most) religion is to fight human nature and have people