Background:

I'm in the military and my wife and I have been married for 6 + Years. We were both married before and have a blended family. She has 2 kids 16 & 20. I have 3 kids 14 16 and 17. Only 2 of my kids and one of hers live with us.

My Situation:

My wife and I have been miserable for some time now. She is an alcoholic but has been sober and attending AA meetings for about 3 months now. Recently it became very bad with her not being home at all. And on some weekends she would stay out all night claiming that she was staying with her sponsor. I finally asked her around the 12th of December "If your so miserable why are you staying with me?" Her response was " I can’t stay sober and live in this house. I have an apartment and I'm moving out after the first of the year." At first I felt this was the best thing for both of us. But after a couple of days I began to feel that this was wrong. I love my wife but we just don't know how to meet each other’s needs. I began to become depressed about the whole thing.

I asked her "when are you planning on moving out?" but she wouldn't tell me. I asked her where her apartment was and she wouldn't tell me.

We talked and I explained that I didn't want a nasty divorce. She said she just needs to do this for her and that after 6 months of separation we would see how we felt and go from there. I asked her if she was planning on seeing other people and she said no. I asked her if she was having and affair and she said no…

We told the kids the day after Christmas that we were separating. Two of them took it pretty hard.

By chance I found out where her apartment was. (2 minutes driving time from our house) I didn't tell her I knew where it was.

I awoke at 2:30 AM the Saturday after Christmas. I couldn't sleep so I went for a drive. In the next town over I saw her car. I got a large cup of coffee and a pair binoculars and watched. At 8:30 AM her boyfriend came out to her car and got something then went back into his apartment. 45 minutes later they both came out, he put her in the passenger seat and gave her a kiss then got in the drivers seat and drove away. I was devastated... but this isn't the first time I've caught her. I literally dragged her out of another mans house wearing his underwear and T-shirt on our wedding anniversary about a year and a half ago.

I didn't confront her about it and she doesn't know that I saw them. I kept my cool and didn't let on that I knew anything.

She moved out on the 5th of January and took her 16 Y.O. daughter with her. She is still seeing this guy. And I'm sure she has taken her daughter to his apartment. I believe they met at an AA meeting. My wife is in a rotten situation. I feel that the very people who are supposed to be helping her are taking advantage of her when she is vulnerable.

She doesn't know I know anything... where she lives... that she's cheating…where he lives…his name… etc

Her EX …(Never Married but is the father of her daughter) claimed that she was having an affair when they were together. He made sure the daughter knew about it and I believe she is very sensitive to the situation. My wife said she was seeing another man… but only after she left her EX. (He said/she said) The other man was married and she was the other woman. I know my step-daughter has been to this mans apartment with my wife…I’m pretty sure she knows what’s going on. My kids don’t know yet…

I think this is an addictive pattern of hers that has continued throughout our marriage. I have always felt that it was never just me and my wife in this relationship. She has always seemed to have a “safety net”. A male companion that she could run to in the event that our marriage didn’t work out. I don’t think she ever made a total commitment to me, only a half-hearted one. I think it’s a trust issue with her and she has admitted having issues with trust.

HELP:

I need feedback, advice and support... Like I said, I love my wife and want to save our marriage.

Is this woman capable of being in a truly committed, loving, trusting, and fulfilling relationship?
Does this really work?
How many of you have been successful at bringing a wayward spouse back?
Should I hire a P.I. to document her infidelity for my peace of mind and legal protection? (P.I. is about $3800)
What should I do next? Confront her with the adultery and go to plan A or wait to get proof from a P.I. and then go to plan A?
I've heard that plan A doesn't work with alcoholics. Should I let her work out her alcoholic issues then confront her and start plan A?

I'm open to any help or suggestions on how to save my marriage.

Hey C_G,


Based on what you've shared with us, and your W's current state of mind, no. I don't think that right now she is. With proper counseling, abstinence from alcohol, and lots of hard work by BOTH of you, I do think that you can rebuild your M if that is HER desire and YOUR desire...


I'm assuming that you are asking if MB 'really works'... Yes, it does work... but it doesn't always result in a rebuilt M. Many couples M's end in divorce, but the ones that follow the MB plan are better prepared to rebuild their life and move on to newer relationships.


I would do whatever I needed to do to protect my family in case you end up in divorce court... the cost of a PI is small when compaired to providing alimony and C/S plus 1/2 of your retirement pay.


Let me ask this question... What do YOU want??? If you want to rebuild your M, the first step is to end the A. You need to expose the A to as many people that have a postive impact on your W and the OM as possible... once the A has ended, you should see if there is any way that you can get another assignment and move your family AWAY from this OM. Then get your W into an AA program to address the alcohol issues.

Semper Fi,

RIF

RIF,
Thanks for all the imput. Are you an active duty Marine?

I love my wife and want to save our marriage.

My wife has an extreamly volitile streak. She can go from zero to pissed in 5 seconds...Before I found out about the affair I called her brother and told him about our split(even though I knew she didn't want me talking to him)... When my wife found out she went nuts... she stole my cell phone and wouldn't give it back...

If I expose the affair to her family she will be LIVID... I'm pretty sure it will drive her further away from me and further into the OM arms...

Ummm... she's already with the OM. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Of course she's going to be angry! You're exposing the A and "ruining" her "fun". Remember, you don't expose in order to punish the WS... you expose the A to bring the A to an end.

If you want a chance to rebuild your M, you need to expose the A and not worry about how "mad" she gets... she WILL get mad! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Semper Fi,

RIF

PS - I'm a former Marine, now I'm an Army Reservist...

I think what I need to do is confront her first and see how she reacts... depending on her reaction and her openess to plan A is going to dictate who else I tell about the affair...

I wouldn't give her ANY opportunity to "spin" her actions...

You already know that she's going to blow up when you expose the A... if you discuss or try to 'negotiate' exposure, she will beat you to the punch and tell everyone that you are loony and just making up stories...

You'll be in a classic "she-said/he-said" scenario and guess who's going to "win" this one?

Semper Fi,

RIF

PS - When Mrs. RIF was involved in her A's, I did NOT expose... my advice is based on hind-sight, and from seeing the effects of other's well-planned and executed exposure. A well-planned and executed exposure will give you the BEST chance of ENDING THE AFFAIR...

OK... So a calculated well planned approach to exposing the affiar is what has worked best for other people?

Yes CG

YOUR best tool is exposure. You expose to anyone who has influence with your WW. You expose also to the OMW. You don't tell her you are going to do this. Just do it in one big swoop.

She will be mad. She will tell you that she can never trust you again. That you have ruined any chance for recovery. Not true. Let her words roll off of you. You are in a battle to save your M. THAT is your goal. Your M can survive her anger, it cannot survive her A.

Stay calm. Expect this explosion after your exposing. This is normal.

Have you read this site? Learned about Plan A and B?

I suggest buying Surviving an Affair. It can be purchased from this site.

Stopping the A is the first step. Your ONLY tool is exposure. You don't expose to just anyone. Just the ones who can exert some influence over her. A's don't look pretty in the light of day.

Big thing is to expose to the OMW.

Yes... I'm sure that there will be more posters with first hand experience that can help you...

Semper Fi,

RIF

Your wife is a serial cheater that would be better left behind. You most likely do not even know of a fraction of the number of affairs she has likely had.

I would STRONGLY suggest fighting for sole custody of your children and hiring yourself a bulldog attorney that specializes in fathers rights. Your wife is a danger to your children with her drinking and promiscuity.

I know you say you love her...but really, what is there to love. I think what happens a lot is people love the person that they have imagined in their mind and not the actual person in front of them. What is there to love about a woman that would abandon her family and go shack up with another man..she has most likely been a cheater your whole marriage.

If you really want this to work out, I would suggest the call to the lawyer FIRST...and to the Harley's second. It is your primary job as a parent to protect your children against all harm...including their mother if need be.

I am sorry that you find yourself in such a bad place and wish you all the best.

CG,

May I strongly suggest you go to Al-Anon meetings, as well? Informing her sponsor of the A is also advisable...AA does not advise beginning any sort of relationship within your first year of sobriety and NEVER adultery...they know the pitfalls and likelihood of trading one addiction for another...so they may help you if you expose.

Exposure is living in truth, CG...where you want to live most when your WS is handing you lies. An act of love for your marriage.

LA

Michele,
Thanks for your reply.

Got it... exposure is the only tool... I'm not sure but I don't think the OM has a wife... I plan on being organized and well prepared when I do it...

I orderd Surviving and Affair last night. Along with a couple of other books...

CG

probably not

she has not 'hit bottom'

and she may very well be a 'low bottom drunk'

meaning - must lose EVERYTHING before she decides to turn herself around

but I think you asked the wrong questions

Is this woman a good influence on your children?

Even if they are young adults, you owe it to them to keep home chaotic-free .... as much as possible

she is not ready to be a decent loving step mom to your kids

cut her lose until she is

my opinion - free for you

Pep

Everyday...
Thanks for the feedback...

You're right she is a serial cheater... weather or not she has had sex is irrelevant in my opinion... if she was going outside of the marriage to fulfill any of her needs then she's cheating...She needs this more than me... I'll be O.K. regardless... That's one of the reasons I want to try...this may be end up being the best thing that happens to her and I if I can make it work (Turning lemons into lemonade if ya know what I mean) ...sometimes the ones that have fallen the farthest have the most to gain...

I have a great attorney...this ain't my first time to the rodeo... custody isn't an issue, she has her kids and I have mine but we don't have any together. If we do divorce my goal is not letting her get one red cent of my military retirement. And I already have a pretty good strategy for that.

How would I call the Harley's? Is it expensive?

Thanks Pep...

Well I think she has some good qualities as a mother... but being paitent and flexable is'nt one of them...

When you say "cut her loose until she is" do you mean give up on her? or go with a plan B approach?

I'm set to meet the PI today... It's expensive ($3900 for 20 hours of work) but he did say that most people need twice as many hours because they just suspect and dont know for sure.... in that scenario the PI's usually have to do all of the footwork to find out who the other person is...

MicheleG... I read your story... You used a PI... any advice?

Anyone else have any advice?

Since I cant sleep... I'm up at weird hours... I drove by her APT EARLY this morning... It's obvious he slept there last night...his car is still there... And what a looser...He's about 45... overweight and UGLY...drives a 1988 chrysler lebaraon with the back window taped up...

She either...

Doesn't care that I know...

Thinks I'm realy dumb...

Or its a cry for help... and I say this because... If you were planning on having an affair why would you get an apartment 2 minutes from my house on a road that I HAVE to use every day?

Can you say...S-T-U-P-I-D....

Thanks for all the support...

Morning C_G,

WS typically don't "think"... they are just interested in getting their needs met no matter what the cost.

I think that the PI route is a good call especially if you are concerned about preserving your military retirement.

Semper Fi,

RIF

Thanks RIF,

Stay safe over there...

CG

When I hired the PI, I still was in denial. I needed proof for my own sake and I thought that my FWH would not confess to me unless the proof was there. Also, in case he was headed out the door for good, I wanted to make sure I would be legally ok.

The type of evidence they got for me was pretty surface stuff. They had a picture of them holding hands and they had followed him a whole week going to her house. They didn't get pictures or hard evidence of them doing it, etc. Though they could literally see the boat rocking. So just make sure you are clear in what you expect them to obtain. Being that you are trying to protect your retirement, you may NEED something more. Don't know. It just sounded like you are convinced and are not in denial about your W's A. So what evidence do you NEED them to get? What will be enough?

CG, I am sure sorry you are here. I don't think you need a PI for anything, though. You already have the evidence she is having an affair. It is clear as a bell.

Plan A does not work with an alcoholic because they only use it as an opportunity to EXPLOIT the BS. It is impossible to meet the needs of a alcoholic, so the BS only ends up getting hurt in plan A. Plan B would be appropriate, though, because it protects the BS and prevents the WS from being enabled.

My suggestion would be to confront your wife, showing her your apparent DIGUST at how far down she has gone, and proceed in exposing the affair everywhere you can. It is real important that you tell her about your disgust and how you see that she is consorting with a loser. This is very good medicine for an alcholic to see themselves through the eyes of others.

In the meantime, I would refer to an article by Dr Harley about alcoholism: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5048a_qa.html

Thanks Melody...Michele,
The PI is for three things... my peace of mind...for irrefutable proof to present to her and her family if necessary and to protect me legally...

Melody... I've heard two different opinions on plan A and alcoholics... go with plan A first...skip it and go directly to plan B... In her state of mind I don't expect plan A to work...but she is in emotional turmoil...she came to the house on Sunday to pick up something and was crying when she left...

Correct me if I'm wrong but in order for an effective plan B to work shouldn’t one of the last things that the WS remembers about you is your how caring you were in your plan A approach?

When I do reveal the affair I'm not sure what to expect... I think she's on an emotional rollercoaster right now...she may actually be relieved to have the truth come out and start crying... Or she may go to the other extreme and get super pissed... continue to lie about it and get real ugly...I don't know...

CG
Yes Plan Aing someone lets them see what the M COULD look like if the WS would end the A and come back. It's also to improve you. It's a time to learn your S ENs and how to meet them, eliminate LBs and generally be a person that any spouse would want to come home to. Improve you.Make changes. You show that you are a beacon lighting the way home. Plan A has a definite time frame because most (if not all) people could not continue to be good to someone who is continually hurting them (the A). Eventually they would feel like they had a doormat sign stuck to their foreheads.

When the time is right and your heart and head are in the same place, Plan B needs to take its place. Going there keeps you out of the daily drama of the A. The pain and the hurt and the anger doesn't get rustled up constantly. And you protect what love you have left for them. It brings you peace. It also allows the WS to see and feel what life would be like without you. A letter is written to the WS explaining to them that you want the M, but can't live in a 3 person R. And if they want to come home they will have to do certain things, etc. You then are protecting your love for them. Then you go dark. An intermediary is put into place to communicate with your WS if financial, children, etc. issues arise. They don't get to see or talk to you.


The problem here is with her alcohol addiction. Will you be able to plan A her? Mel says that that can be hard if not impossible to do. Personally I don't know. I would defer to Mel. But in the best case scenario, it would be good to at least try for a VERY short period and not expect to see much. And for that matter don't expect to see much from your WW at all. It's going to get much uglier before you see ANYTHING. Just don't believe what she says. Watch her actions.


I think it would be wise to start reading up on Plan B. Finding an int. and preparing a letter. You should post it here to get suggestions and clarifications.

Michele,

Thanks for the advice. I've ordered several books from here, SAA, His needs her needs for parents, How to fall in love and stay in love.... Just waiting for them to get here.

I don't expect plan A to work on her but you never know... I really need to read SAA and get my act together before I expose the affair.

I’ve been loosing weight…but I wouldn’t recommend this as a diet to anyone...lol And since I’m loosing weight I might as well help it along by going to the gym. My sleep patterns have been getting better. I was only getting about 3 or 4 hours of sleep a night.

I met with the PI today and paid the retainer (Ouch!) I was going back and forth about weather to do it or not for a while... Now that I've committed I feel better.

I found out which AA meeting she's going to... and wouldn't you know it... right across the street from his apartment. How convenient...

Compared to my family she has a strange/dysfunctional family. I am the youngest of 11. My mother and father were high school sweethearts that married each other in 1941and stayed married until my mother died in 1979. My father never re-married and passed in 1995. They had their problems but stayed together and by the time I came around they were happy together. My brothers and sisters all love each other and support each other in times of need.

She is the youngest of 5. Her parents separated and divorced when she was a baby. From what I understand her father was a gambling alcoholic who was having and affair when they divorced. They’ve both been married at least 3 times each since. When they get mad at each other they will stop talking to each other and go for years like that… (My wife went 6 years without talking to her brother.)

I get along with everyone in her family and I like them all. My wife and I had a physical altercation once and her mother got pissed at me… rightly so… but I think she’s ok with me now…I get along great with her father and her brother… Her brother say’s I’m the best brother in law he’s ever had… And compared to her EX’s I’m probably the best thing that ever happened to her.

When I expose the affair I want everyone in her family to know... But I'm not sure how much support I'll get from them. How do I sell it to them? And what’s the best way to do it… email…phone?

Thanks Again,
Chuck

CG

I don't know if it matters how you approach them. But your message is what's important. You want them to know that you love your wife. You want your M. You are asking for their support. You are going to fight for her. Those were your vows...for better or for worse. You remain calm. If any of them try to argue, don't engage, just reiterate that you are fighting for your M. That's it.

It's hard to figure out how others will respond to such news. They could be all over the place. Be prepared for anything. Don't plead or look pathetic, be strong. You are doing what is right! No need to be preachy, just matter of fact.

Bulletproof, Huh?

If you keep changing your screen name, nobody will ever figure out where you are. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

You asked me a question on one of my threads and I have read this thread and am trying to figure out what to tell you.

Since the car is in both of your names, I don't think you can confiscate it and as you already figured out, letting it get repo'd would be cutting off your nose to spite your face. It isn't an easy situation to be in.

Do you have a camera with any reasonably long lens? If so, snoop yourself and try to get pix of the two of them together. That should be sufficient proof if push comes to shove.

I would hire that bulldog lawyer MEDC talked about and prepare for a legal separation. Part of that agreement should be that she either buys the car from you (she pays half up front) or better yet, she can refinance the car so that she has to make the payments.

I hope you are not picking up the tab for her love nest and you should also not be paying any bills that are in her name alone.

Another part of the LSA should be that OM cannot be around the children. It might be hard to get approved, but try for it anyway.

As for exposure...get a list together and execute it all at once. Don't do it piece meal and do NOT tip her or warn her in any way that it is about to happen. Any warning at all and she can begin to spin it to her family and friends. She has probably already begun doing so and times a wastin' to get the exposure going. When you expose, she will not be mad...She will be LIVID. You have never heard or seen what she will say and do when you expose. She will say things that will make you nearly faint, but it is all simply noise and smoke. It's what a WS does when you rain on their fantasy.

You've been asked if you have read up on Plan A and B. By the fact that you read at least some of my thread, I am guessing you at least have some ideas what the plans are all about.

How can you meet her ENs? Have you identified them yet? Do you even want to do a Plan A and try to save this marriage? That is the first question you really have to answer and if the answer is yes, then you have to be ready to put your own wants and needs on hold for at least a few months in an effort to win her back.

And you need to get some pix or something soon, because you can't just let her continue as if everything is like she is telling you it is. You KNOW she is having an affair and you need to let her know that you know. To do that, you don't need indisputable proof, just enough to make her think you have more than you are telling her.

When I confronted my wife, I had cell phone calls and emails in close proximity to each other. I snooped and found traces of deleted files on the computer that were created or deleted around the same times and put it all together as if I had every picture, file, email and transcript of every phone call. I really had squat...But she didn't know that because I sold it pretty well. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I have to tell you that you've got some of the best there is posting to you. RIF understands the military part of all of this better than anyone (IMO) and you even had Pep come out of retirement to post to you. Michele and LA are great. LA will say things you will have to read ten times before you get it all and each time will be something you didn't see before. Mel is from Texas and takes no prisoners when it comes to this stuff. So to be honest, I can try to answer any specific questions you might have about something I wrote, but you're already in very good hands.

The best thing you can do right now is to call the coaching center and get an appointment with Steve or Jennifer. Either of them can help you get it together more in 45 minutes than all of us on here can do for you in a month.


Mark

Well I made an entry a while ago and said somthing about being 10 ft tall and bulletproof... I rememberd a user name that I had when I used to chat on yahoo...

OK… let me address some things and ask some questions here…

I concur about the car…

I’ve already found a great lawyer…

I’ve already retained the PI… I’ll wait for his pictures.

The only thing I’m paying for is the car and the insurance. (because I have to have insurance until its paid off) The good thing is I only have 4 more payments until its paid off.

There is no Legal Separation in PA…I can’t do anything about him being around HER child… I have mine at home with me and he ain’t coming here.

I agree with the exposure… just waiting for the PI…


I want to save the marriage…
Do I have to do a Plan A? Or can I expose and go right into a plan B? Or… can a do a Plan A for a very short time then go into a Plan B?
I’m not sure how to meet her EN if we’re not in the same house.
I visually went through the EN questionnaire. She has a need for conversation… but I don’t know if that is something I should try…We met on the internet… chatted for several days before we talked on the phone… then would talk until she literally fell asleep on the phone. We had talked for over a month before we met in person.

Thanks Mark,

It’s late… I have new books to read and I need to go to bed….

BTW… where in ILL are you? I’m originally from Iowa.

Plan A is about self improvement. It lets you become a better person and husband by killing love busters and becoming better at meeting ENs for your wife. While it is difficult to do much in Plan A when you are not together in the same house, it is not impossible. Look at Skinsgal's thread and see how it can be done.

Plan B is a last ditch effort for the BS to get away from the craziness and drama of an ongoing affair. It isn't punishment for the WS or an effort to "make her see what she is doing" and return to the marriage begging for forgiveness. Plan B is designed to protect any vestiges of love that you might have left as you near burn out from trying to win her back in Plan A, because if you are doing a good Plan A, you are burning out rapidly because you are giving freely while squashing the desires of your taker in an effort to avoid love busters.

Plan B can have some benefit as far as breaking through the fog of the affair but only if it has been preceded by a really stellar Plan A. Other than that, Plan B is just a waiting game to see when the affair will end of its own accord.

This is exactly the kind of thing you are looking for. This is how she fell in love with you before and is likely how she fell for OM as well. It is the key to her heart, so to speak and any efforts you can put into meeting this need for her will result in conflict for her as she attempts to resolve her feelings for you and the actions of the affair.

But no matter what you do to make deposits into her love bank, if you make withdrawals as well your balance will never grow. So you must identify all love busters in your own actions and get rid of them. Showing anger, even if you don't explode into a rage can drain her love bank as can saying anything that misrepresents anything she says or does (disrespectful judgment)

And anything you attempt in the way of educating her or trying to break through the fog and make her realize that she is wrong right now will be construed as a love buster by her. You can't reason with a WS, so save the energy. You can't educate a WS so sharing what you have learned will be a waste of time.

As I drummed into TMTS for a couple of weeks, Plan A is about:
1)Meeting her ENs as much as she allows
2)Avoiding love busters completely
3)Having No expectations of anything in return from her.

By doing #1 you fill her LB$.
By doing #2 you stop withdrawing from your account.
By remembering #3 you can remain just sane enough to pull it off. It is unmet expectations that will be your undoing in Plan A. You have to do 1 & 2 without any expectation of any response from her at all.

You won't see the effect, but it will be happening beneath the surface.

OK; time for Steve's rocks in the river analogy again...

You stand on the bank of a river. It is too wide to swim safely because of the strong current and much too deep to wade across. You pick up a rock and throw it into the water and it vanishes beneath the waves. You throw another rock and it too simply disappears under the water.

You keep throwing rocks into the river and nothing shows for all your efforts. You know by reason that the rocks are not vanishing but must be piling up beneath the surface, but you haven't seen any sign of it happening. But you throw some more rocks.

You throw 499 rocks into the river and see nothing in the way of progress. And then you throw rock number 500 and the very tip is barely visible above the water. And that is the basis for building a bridge to get to the other side.

Though the deposits you make into her LB$ will seem to have no effect at all, you have to just keep making them, because you have to understand that they will pile up and have a cumulative effect over time. And when you do have a visible reaction, you concentrate on building on that in order to establish something tangible.

This is Plan A...

The best investment you could make right now would be to talk to Steve or Jennifer. Call for some coaching. Either of them can help you form a specific plan designed just for your situation.

I am about 45 miles SW of Chitown, near where the DuPage, Kankakee, and DesPlaines rivers meet to form the Illinois. I'm a ways from Iowa, but do get to see QCA television often as I have resort property just NE of Quad Cities. My wife and I have also spent a little time in QCA doing some recreational stuff including dinner on a river boat out of Moline.

The company I once worked for did a lot of work in Iowa and another job I had sent me to Garner about twice a month.

Mark

Mark,

Thanks

Great Post...

I have relatives that live near Streator. Verona/Kinsman area... Coal City sounds familiar to me... I think I went there once with my aunt and uncle as a boy...

Chuck

I mean 'give up'.

BECAUSE you should be turning ALL your attention/energy in the direction of your children - WHO NEED YOU

Your children do not NEED this chaos - and they do not need a Dad who is trying to fix another adult who does not WANT to change ....

You only have so much time in your life - spend it where you can do the most good


YOUR KIDS

If WW was their bio mother - my advice would be different .... but she is NOT.

sorry kiddo

I won't bother you again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Sorry Pep... I think that terrible advice...

I see her for what she is now... and HOPE for what she could be... I won't give up on her... I'm not hanging on... just hoping for what could be...and making changes in my life and my kids life for the better... I want her to be a part of my life.... but I'm resolved to not going back to the same way it was... It either changes for the better or it ends... and I'm fine with either one.

The thing is... since she left there seems to be much more calm and happienss in the house... my girls and I are getting along better than ever!

good for you!

be well

Pepper,
I do appreciate you're opinion.

Sometimes a dose of TRUTH is what someone needs to hear but not what they want to hear or are ready to hear.

It's very possible you are right on the money. I'm just not ready to give up yet...

Hey Mark,

What do you think about this?

Input, comments welcome… (From anyone…that means you too Pep…lol)

Just like the book SAA said...

With separation comes reality. I had a long talk with my oldest daughter last night… On of the first times she’s opened up to me in a long time. My daughter informed me that my stepdaughter is very unhappy with my WW. Apparently WW and her daughter fight all the time. Stepdaughter feels that WW is spending too much time at AA (Where she met OM) and elsewhere (I’m sure its with the OM). When WW was still in my house she would go to her meetings and leave her daughter here with my kids and me for LONG periods of time. Now that she has her own apt she doesn’t have me to U-S-E anymore and it’s causing problems in paradise.

After my daughter told me this I asked her if she thought it would be good for the stepdaughter to come over for a short visit. My daughter said yes and that she misses stepdaughter.

Which brings me to this…

I think another of my WW’s EN’s is family commitment. I’ve read what the book say’s family commitment is… And under that definition is spending quality time with the children in order for them to develop into successful adults. One of the things I’ve decided to do for “Me” to improve “Me” is take dancing lessons. I’ve found a place in my hometown that teaches swing dance, ballroom dance etc… they give lessons and have a dances that are open to the public weekly. Originally I was planning on going by myself. But after talking to my daughters I thought it might be something we could do together. I asked them if they think I should bring my stepdaughter too. However, I’m not sure I want to do that. Wouldn’t that be ENABLING my WW to spend time with OM? Would I be helping to fix her domestic problems with her daughter by having stepdaughter spend time here with my kids and me?

Any comments or thoughts would be great.

If your stepdaughter is 16+, then I don't really see involving her in family activities is enabling WW's A.

Don't know how it works in your state, but the only real advantages for a PI, IMO, are: (1) it insulates you from following your WW and her AP; and (2) you have a corroborating third party witness of the adultery if it goes to trial and if the A is relevant. $200/hr seems a little high to me (I lucked out with about 40% of that), but you are lucky that you know so many details and that WW is acting so openly.

- WG

Ok... what does age have to do with it?

As far a the PI goes you pretty much hit it on the head. (BTW what is "AP"? affair partner?)

You got the AP correct.

I don't know what you are seeking from me in the way of advice. If you plan to fight for your marriage, you need to take certain steps. And one of those should be to call and talk to Steve or Jennifer. You need to have specific plan in place that you can execute no matter what your WW does.

You don't need to find any more evidence of an affair, you already know it is a reality. What you need to do now is to take steps to break up the affair. You also need to do everything in your power to protect your kids from this and if you care about you step-daughter, that includes her as well. But I sense in what you write that what you are looking for is an angle or leverage to use against your WW. Maybe not in divorce court, but as leverage to make her come to her senses.

But that isn't something that you can do. It isn't within your power to make her come to the decision you seek and trying to do so will only make you as nuts as she is acting.

Plan A is about you making you the best you that is possible and showing her that with you is better than with OM. You have to be willing to do things for her that make you that better option without doing anything to drive her away and that is far from easy to do. You can only do this for a short time or it will kill your love for her entirely. So it has to be short and intense.

When you can't do it anymore, before you no longer love her, you have to be ready for Plan B, which is only about you protecting what love is left until the affair dies. Having to do without you might hasten that day, but only if she has some reason to miss you before you stop seeing her completely. That is what the reality check of Plan B is all about. Unless she has some reason to desire to return to you, Plan B is just getting you out of the way for her point of view.

In order to have any chance of doing a Plan A that has meaning, you have to meet her ENs, kill all love busters in your own life and show her what marriage to you can be like. But you have to balance that against trying to break up the affair at the same time. And the best weapon to use against the affair is exposure. Exposure to anyone who might have any influence over your WW is what might help, but there are no guarantees.

I also need to tell you that the fact that Pep is posting advice to you makes you special in some way. She pretty much retired a while back from posting here and she hasn't posted on very many threads of late. I don't know why she chose you to help, but believe me when I say that you need to pay close attention to what she says. While you might miss the point of her one line and sometimes single word replies to you, they can pack a lot of information you need to consider. Likely more than all of my ramblings, so don't discount it.

Mark

Thanks again Mark,

You’re right I don’t need any more evidence for me…. However I do want more evidence in the event I end up in divorce court. I will make an appointment with Steve or Jennifer. I do care about my stepdaughter but I’m not sure what I can do to protect her…I don’t really have any legal rights when it comes to the stepdaughter… Some advice or clarification would be helpful…


I’m not sure I follow you could you explain further?


Like I said in an earlier post… I do appreciate her advice… and she may be right on the money. But I may not be ready to accept what she’s saying right now… I don’t know… but I’m open to her opinion.

Chuck

In no-fault states evidence of adultery doesn't do squat. Have you researched the specific info related to divorce for your state of residence?

Evidence of adultery can sometimes be influential in custody issues. It can vary from state to state, though.

What I'm driving at is it seems as if you are looking for something that will shorten the curve and make everything right. There are no shortcuts and nothing you can do to bring your wife back until she wants to do it. You don't need to convince her, you need to lead her. And to do that you have to give her a reason to want to come back.

You asked about having your step daughter over to the house. I think it would be good for your kids and good for her as well. But be very careful that you don't try to make it about bringing your wife home, because that will damage all of them beyond your wildest nightmares for years to come. You simply cannot use the kids to try to influence your wife in any way.

If I misread your intent from your words you posted, I am sorry, but it was more an overall feeling I was getting from the sum of your posts rather than any specific thing you said.

Plan A is the first step. Exposure becomes part of that. It cannot wait until Plan B because then it will be seen by everyone, WW, OM and those you expose to as well as revenge. Not the reason for it at all.

Expose soon, because I would say that your window of opportunity is closing rapidly.

And so that I know that you know what Pep was trying to tell you...You need to stop trying to make your WW do anything. That is what you need to give up on entirely...Not the marriage, just her in her current state. You need to shift your focus to those things on which you can have an effect and will have whether you actively do something or just sit back and wait. Your kids are those things.

What you do (or don't do) will have ripple effects with their children and theirs as well. How you model being a Dad during this crisis will give them the basis for what they think a Dad should be as well as what they see as important in a marriage.

Does your wife even know that you know about her boyfriend? Have you confronted her?

Have you exposed to those that might influence her to stop this insanity?

Have you identified her Emotional Needs? Have you identified where you have issues that are love busters to your wife and done away with them entirely.

Do you attempt to communicate to your wife that you are fighting for , not just her, but your marriage to her? I don't mean trying to reason with her or trying to educate her. She doesn't care how much you know until she knows how much you care.

If you want any chance at saving your marriage, start being proactive and less reactive. Your tactic of trying to gather more intel is wasting time and you don't have much of it.

Consider yourself thwacked...

Mark

In Pennsylvania, adultery is a grounds for divorce:

Fault Based Grounds: 1.Committed willful and malicious desertion period of at least one year. 2.Adultery. 3.By cruel and barbarous treatment, endangered the life or health of the injured and innocent spouse. 4.Bigamy. 5.Incarceration for at least 2 years. 6.Offered such indignities to the innocent and injured spouse as to render that spouse’s condition intolerable and life burdensome. (Pennsylvania Consolidated Statutes - Title 23 - Sections: 3301)

From what I read, if proven, adultery will affect spousal support and may affect the division of the property.

graplin,

In PA what evidence does for me is keep me from paying temporary spousal support and alimony.

As far as division of marital assets it doesn’t do anything.

We have no custody issues because we don’t have any children together.

Gotcha! Is she employed, unemployed or underemployed?

Thanks princess,
I've already researched it and talked to an attorney about it.

Where in TX?

I'm in Plano, north of downtown Dallas... pretty soon to be connected to Allen, McKinney and then Oklahoma if we keep growing!

She's employed.... (what's underemployed?)

Mark,
You have a knack of explaining things in a way that I can relate to.

I don’t think I’m looking for a way of curving things I’m just new to this and don’t know to do this. I’m still learning. I did put a request in for a counseling session with Steve or Jennifer.

As far as my stepdaughter goes let me explain something… After my wife said she was moving out and before I found out about the affair I told her that that I didn’t want to see her for a while and that I would need some time to get over my hurt and anger. This also included her stepdaughter because I felt that it would just remind me of my wife. (After I found out about the affair I was really hurt and disgusted. This only reinforced my desire to not see her.) My intention was not to punish the stepdaughter just give me some time to heal. I talked to the stepdaughter and explained that to her and that she was always welcome here, but I needed some time to get over my hurt and anger. As a matter of fact before WW moved out stepdaughter and me had a real good cry together. (Kind of a breakthrough moment.) She’s always kept me at arms length and not wanting to get too close.

My wife does not know that I know and I have not confronted her. However I’m sure my stepdaughter knows. How could she not? She’s been to his apartment with her mother and he’s stayed the night at her apartment. She knows… She’s probably afraid of her mom getting really pissed for saying anything to me or she may be trying to protect me from being hurt. As a matter of fact my since all the girls talk it wouldn’t surprise me if my kids also know but they’re not saying anything in an effort to protect my feelings.

When I had my talk with my daughter last night and she said stepdaughter was mad at WW about spending too much time at AA. I read between the lines. Stepdaughter is really mad about OM, mad at mom, feels helpless and is probably really hurting. (I believe WW had cheated on stepdaughter’s dad also.) That’s why I asked WW if stepdaughter could come over. I thought it would be good for all the kids especially stepdaughter.


Ok I can relate to that…

“A good solution applied with vigor now is better than a perfect solution applied ten minutes later.”
Gen. George S. Patton.

Thanks again Mark.

Working part time, or having for instance, a degree in accounting that goes unused while working instead as a waitress. That sort of thing.

A WW who is underemployed is usually awarded more financial support after a divorce. So, it is to the BH's advantage for the WW to be fully employed in something that reflects their true earning capabilities.

Ok... gotcha... She works full time and makes about 1/3 of what I do... and I'm in the military... I aint gettin rich anytime soon.

Have you read TMTS's (toomuchtoosoon) thread? Check it out. He's doing everything he can to delay his wife moving out.

Your reaction when you learned your wife wanted to move out was quite typical in many ways. You were hurt and not able to deal with the pain and were pretty much lashing out in anger toward your wife.

I can understand that and appreciate it. I can also see where you have discussed things now for a week. RIF's first response suggested exposure and today we're talking about...exposure...

Most of this stuff around here is not hypothetical but reality based. But it also is not very intuitive in many of the things it is suggested that you do. It doesn't hurt to question the logic of many things, but exposure is the best tool you have to put pressure on the affair. The longer you wait, the longer she has to spin what she is doing. She can let everyone know what an a$$ you have been and how she had to get away from you because you wee driving her to drink and since she moved away she has found this really nice guy and they are just friends and you are being your usual [censored] self about it and...

Does that sound like something she might tell folks she knows?

That is why you need to tell people what is really going on and that you are trying to fight for your marriage.

And no matter how you expose or who you expose to it will make your wife so mad she will chew up spikes and spit out tacks. You will hear things out of her mouth you never dreamed you'd hear. She will call you names, say you are meddling in her life and tell you that she was thinking about coming home to work on the marriage until you did this.

I heard it...Others have heard it...It isn't anything original or new...It isn't anything you need to respond to or react to. Just know that is is coming and recognize it when it happens.

Any addict who is about to have their drug taken away is angry and will attempt any and every trick or threat they can muster in order to protect their next fix. And a WS is addicted to the way the AP makes them feel. It is the same chemicals at work in the brain and the same responses in the body that take place. Understand it and prepare yourself for it, but do not let it prevent you from doing what you need to do.

What happened to the first marriage for both of you BTW? Sorry if I missed it someplace, but refresh me.

Mark

I know exposure is what I need to do… I think I’m afraid that if I expose I’ll miss my opportunity to get evidence that I can use in court if I need to. Like I said I want to save my marriage but I’m also afraid of being legally vulnerable. I feel like I’m between a rock and a hard place. On one hand I really-really want to go out to a coffeehouse and sit down with my wife and tell her that I know… That I want to fight for her and our marriage…Acknowledge that I helped create the conditions for the affair by neglecting my wife… But on the other hand I don’t want to have my butt swinging in the breeze when I do it.

I just got off the phone with the PI… I told him I wanted him done this week and that I was going to confront her about it next weekend weather he was finished or not.

So there you have it …next weekend or sooner… I would like to talk to Steve or Jennifer first though.


Yes it does however, I don’t think they will believer her… She has a history of this and her family knows it. I’ve called her brother before to talk about my marriage problems or just to shoot the breeze… I don’t know how, but my wife finds out every single time and she gets PISSED. It may be that her brother just has a big mouth and can’t keep it shut. (At least that’s what WS says.) The last time I called him was the day before D-Day. One of the first things he asked me was “Is she screwing around on you?” (He must know her pretty well to ask that) At the time I didn’t know and told him that I didn’t know. WS knew I called the next day… She stole my cell phone the day after that and she was LIVID. Screaming at me about how I called her brother when she specifically told me not to. How I stabbed her in the back and that she couldn’t trust me… (Isn’t that a crock….) Knowing what I know now it was all hype to make me feel guilty… You know… a good offence is the best defence….

First marriage for both of us…. Hmmm… that may be a much longer post but I’ll try and summarize it very briefly.

Me: Married once for the wrong reason… I felt obligated because we had a child… She was maniacally depressed/BI-polar. She tried to commit suicide. When she got out of the hospital she decided she wasn’t coming back. I went to court, her mother filed an intervention to try and get custody of kids… 2 years later divorce was final and I got custody of all 3 kids. (Including her son who wasn’t my biological son) I was a single parent for seven years before I married current wife.

Her: Married once, (one son), then was with another man for 7 years without marrying. (One daughter.) She told me what happened with her daughter’s father. (But I don’t believe everything she told me now) Here’s what she told me… He was an abusive drunk…she got sick of his crap… she kicked him out and he moved in right next door…(no kidding… was still there when I met her) they went through a custody battle. She ended up getting custody. She said she didn’t start seeing anyone else until they split up but he maintains that she was having an affair. The fact is the guy she was seeing was married so it was an affair even if it started after she split up with her daughter’s father. (follow that?) I should have realized when I met her that she was bad news.

So there you have it… a very short marital history… Maybe I’ll post the whole story of my first divorce one day... by the time the divorce was finalized I was disgusted with how incompetent the social workers and the family court systems are.

Man you gotta be bullet proof or at the very least believe you are. IMO you've been dodging bullets for a while now.

If I were you, which of course I am not, I would make some real changes necessary even if she came back tonight before letting her back into my house.

I can tell you that though my wife had more than one affair years ago and the most recent one didn't really amount to much, it trashed my emotions a lot more than anything previous, perhaps because of where I thought we were when it happened. Today we have different tools to work on problems and we both know things we didn't know back then.

That said, there won't be another recovery. If it happens again, she's history and she knows that this time around. With what we know now, there is no reason for it to happen, even from an excuse standpoint.


And Henry VIII was the last to have his xW offed and get away with it in the courts.

Mark

I've already said this but I'll say it again...

I'm resolved to NOT going back to the way things were...She had too many male friends including the one she had an affair with when she was with her daughters father... too damn inconciderate of others feelings including the kids...too controlling...not trusting...etc etc etc...

I'm not going back to that crap...I deserve better...

Either we change things for the better of our marriage and our family... or its over and I change things for the betterment of my kids and myself... I'm going to be fine either way. I want her to be a part of my life but NOT back to the way things were... and if she isn't capable or doesn't want to change then I'm gone...

Before I would even consider letting her come back in the house we would have to have some serious pro marital Christian marriage and family counseling that was showing progress. She would have to make a good faith gesture of total honesty by letting me have access to all of her email accts, phone accounts etc so that I can be sure she's not screwing around...The obvious NC with the OM. The other thing I'm going to insist on is that my kids have a desire to want her back... And right now their split. One does and one doesn't. She's going to have to convince them that she has changed or started to make a change for the better and that she should be let back into our lives...

If I sat on my butt and waited...there's no doubt in my mind she's going to want back in.. I'm the best thing that happened to her and she knows it. The thing is… I'm not going to roll over let her wipe her feet on me then say "that's all right honey all is forgiven come on back...She's going to have to want to make an honest effort to save the marriage, work on our blended family issues, work on her ISSUES, and convince those kids that she's deserving. I don’t know if she has it in her to do it… She’s so afraid of trust and commitment it may be too much for her to do…

But that's basically what would have to happen in order for me to be willing to let her come back.

BTW… now that I've got that out of my system...

Does anyone have some good examples of plan B letters?

Just thought I might want to plan for the inevitable…

Mark,


Such as???

I already posted what I think should happen before I let her back… Any input?



I understand … Change me for the better and be the best husband and father that I can be…concentrate on my kids… Let her see the changes and that gives her a reason to want to come back. She has to make that decision on her own. I can’t force her to do anything.

I think I’ve started doing those things….

First of all I’m here… probably the best thing I’ve done so far. I’m learning about what a happy healthy loving marriage should be and what I can do to change the things that are within my power to change.

Second of all I’m working on being good to me and making me healthy and happy… Working out… going to counseling to work on my issues…Planning on quitting smoking…getting some other health issues fixed (I snore terribly)…learning to dance…etc…

Third I’m spending time with my kids… Showing them that I love them and that things are going to change for the better. Since WW left my kids and I have been getting along so much better. When WW was here there was a lot of resentment about parenting, from me and her and from my kids… I was reading HNHN for parents and it says this is very common in blended families… If we had been practicing a POJA we wouldn’t have this problem.

Thanks

I need some coaching/help with exposing WW affair. Like I said in an earlier post I want to do this by next weekend or sooner.

I would like to talk to her parents… ask them to support me in saving our marriage.

I want to find out if there’s any pressure I can put on the affair through Alcoholics Anonymous since that’s where they met and they go to meetings together. I plan on going to an ALANON meeting today and find out what/if there’s anything that I can do through AA.

When I tell my wife that I know, I would like to do it at a coffee shop… Any input on what conversation I should have and how to do it without being ugly and committing several LB’s…

Any Help and advice welcom.

My H is at his daily AA meeting right now.

My thought about AA exposure is

possibly expose to her sponsor

My H sponsors 3 men currently

when he returns from his meeting, I will ask him about this situation

What would he do if a non- AA spouse came to my husband to tell him that one of the men he sponsors is having an affair with another AA member

my guess is, he would take the cheating spouse out for coffee and discuss in private

Do you know who your wife's sponsor is ?

The fact that she is cheating with someone from AA after being in the program 3 months tells me a lot about her state of mind.

She is not really sober. She is a dry drunk.

dry drunk definition


[color:"red"]Definition: A colloquial term generally used to describe someone who has stopped drinking, but who still demonstrates the same alcoholic behaviors and attitudes.
Also Known As: Dry, Not Sober [/color]

... and, a dry drunk is more difficult to deal with than an alcoholic who is still drinking ....

Your wife has merely switched addictions.

and now Mark knows why I chose to respond to your situation <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Pepper....
I've been reading you're carrot and stick... I have a question...but I'll get to that in a minute...

I don't know who her sponsor is... She said it was a female but it wouldn't surprise me if its the OM. She had a different female sponsor about 2 months ago then changed.

Ok… from you’re carrot and stick post on exposure…


Can you give me a link or send me in the right direction?

Thanks Pepper….

BTW… I do appreciate your advice… Mark helped me really understand what you were saying about the kids…I appreciate it…

I made an entry in another post about her last drunk... did you read it?

I was thinking the exact same thing about her switching addictions...

no

and I am not too sharp at the moment, could you copy/paste for me please?

I bet she does not have one .... opposite sex sponsors are discouraged, for obvious reasons

TRY this LINK

Ok...

here's her last drunk....

Have you spoken to her physician about her alcoholism?

She probably did not 'out' herself to her doctor. Very few do.

Call & make an appointment for yourself with her physician.

Expose the alcoholism and tell that story (just as you told it here) about her falling down.

She may need more medical help than you realize. Women's bodies get wrecked by booze at a faster rate.

Probably nothing will happen right away ... but believe me, on her next doctor's visit, it will be discussed.

Mention the adultery only in passing as a symptom of her alcoholism.

A suggestion - but a strong suggestion

in reality

her very life is at stake

fixing the marriage is a lower priority

sorry .... reality check

Have you discovered this list posted by Mr Wondering?


[color:"blue"]OK...the list of Do's and Don'ts.

Do's
1. Act Happy
2. Get a life (new activities, etc.)
3. repeat over and over..."I will make it"
4. Actively LISTEN....keep conversations at "to the point...small talk" ...don't blow it up beyond the waywards current comfort zone
5. Tend to Agree (Thank you for your truthfulness, It seems that way, you have a point)
6. Expand your social relationships (Being especially aware of your own vulnerability and keeping sharing and time with opposite sex relationships to an absolute minimum)
7. Get sexy (gym, new clothes, etc)
8. Focus on your strengths and Positives...don't put yourself down verbally or constantly go over what you did wrong
9. Accept Uncertainty (Do your best today and let God take care of tommorrow)

DON'Ts

1. Repeatedly say "I love you"
2. Ask questions that don't have answers yet
3. Criticize, complain, whine or nag
4. Say, "I've changed"....allow the wayward spouse to simply judge your actions
5. Argue, Reason or Plead
6. Don't get family or friends overly involved in recovery (notice I said "in recovery", EXPOSURE to bust up an active affair IS ESSENTIAL and EXPOSURE to the OP's spouse is an absolute MUST)
7. Act helpless or depressed
8. Discuss morality, invoke God or Dr. Laura type babble
9. Suggest marital counseling (must be the waywards idea)
10. Tell them continually "we need to work on the relationship"
11. GIVE UP [/color]

Thanks Pepper...

I understand what you're saying about her life... I think she's in a downward spiral right now and it's only getting worse.

Umm...Just currious and I don't want un-caring but what will talking to her doctor do?

I think I've read that post... what's the name of the post?

Physician would likely order certain lab tests to check for liver damage.

Physician would avoid prescribing certain medications that can be dangerous (even lethal) if taken with alcohol

Physician would likely attempt one-on-one counseling:

"Let's talk about your drinking."

The reason I mention this, I did tests on a woman & results showed that her liver was in early stages of damage. Prior to this I had NO IDEA she was alcoholic. She is lovely, smart, kind, etc.

We spoke & I told her she needs to stop drinking it will cause her permanent damage in the not too distant future if she persisted.

ONE YEAR LATER --- she returned (with a female friend for support) and she said
"I'm ready to quit drinking now."

That was 10 years ago - she is just wonderful & healthy and her liver enzymes are normal.

You certainly do not have to do this, it is just a suggestion based on my experience. If she does not have a regular physician, it probably won't be of use.

Does she take prescription drugs that you know of?

I am not a physician by the way - something else.

Ummm I don't think there's anything she takes on a regular basis.

I'll let you go for now. I think you have a lot on your plate already.

Try and relax.

You do not have to 'do' things to fix WW.

Be well.

I'll try... but its hard...

One last question... before you go...

you may imagine that if you just do (A + B + C) juuuuuuust right - you can turn your WW around

you cannot

all you can do is make yourself attractive

WW is not healthy enough to be in a healthy relationship 'as is' .... she is seeking her own level of immaturity with OM.

work on your side of the fence & make sure the kids are getting adult parenting - they hurt a ton that they don't tell you about because they can see how upset you are

make sure they know they can burden you with their concerns

My question is about my stepdaughter...

Because my WW cheated on her dad I think she is going to take this harder than the other girls... It's like re-living a bad dream for her...

I feel really bad for her and was wanting to let her come over. I talked to my daughters about it and they want to see her... WW wife says it’s OK…

The thing is... I know my stepdaughter knows what’s going on... my daughters might even know because they talk to the stepdaughter. They may not be saying anything to me because they want to protect me…

I was reading about a lot of stuff… Anyway here it is… I want to start taking dancing lessons… originally just for me but I think it would be a great thing to do with my daughters and stepdaughter. What do you think?

Go for it.

Great idea.

I spoke with my H about this

he said to tell you that it is likely WW dumped her sponsor because WW did not like what she was hearing from the sponsor

H said WW probably does not have a sponsor - and is not working the steps

H said to tell you that any sponsor will tell a newbie that they should not enter any new romantic relationship until they have been working their program for at least a year (even if there is no marriage or infidelity)

H said to tell you that if he learned one of the men he sponsors was having an affair, he'd take them out for a private talk and try to guide him out of that error

AA strongly discourages same sex sponsors - with the exception of gay AA'ers (my H's home group has a high percentage of gay members, so this issue is relevant for him)

I hope this helps

Did you mean opposit sex sponsors?

oops ... my poor brain

sorry

Pepper,
I'm so glad my stepdaughter came over...We had a long talk...she cried... she's HURTING...I feel so bad for her... She's re-living this...WW did same thing to her dad...twice... I'm the only one she's talked to about WW and OM... she's amazed that I know...She said WW wont change, she's hurt to many people and will continue to hurt people...she said she was relieved that she had someone to talk to about it...I am too...

You are one great step Dad

Thanks Pepper,


I'm trying to listen to you're advice. But its hard...You don't think I should do anything? Don't tell her I know...

I am doing things for me... It's the not doing anything for WW thats hard...

Stepdaughter said she was so mad she was thinking of leaving half way through high school and going to live with her dad in TX...She told her mom not to bring OM over to house, that if WW was going to see him do it somewhere else. WW doesn't listen... brings him over anyway...It's like rubbing her nose in it... She feels like she has no control over her situation...

This may have been the wrong thing to do but I told her she had other options besides leaving to go to live with Dad...
She's old enough or almost old enough to make her own descisions... I said if she didn't want to leave high school in the middle... and if she wanted to she could always come live with me and the girls... but I didn't pressure her...just offered... she said her dad would go bizerk...

10ft,

I'm glad Pep was able to be here for you today, because I simply had very little time to myself today. I got to church before 8 this morning and didn't leave till after 3.

I think suggesting that your SD stay with you and your girls is a great offer. Ultimately, it may be her dad that has to allow that, but I think the offer shows her that you, at least, care about what is right.

I know it doesn't feel like it, but you're doing well.

Mark

No it doesn't feel like i'm doing well... weekends are bad... At least durring the week I can keep my mind occupied at work somewhat... and I go the gym at work...

When I go to the gym its kinda like meditation for me... get's my mind off of everything...and I feel stronger... emotionally, physically, mentally...

And now the stepdaughter...I feel terrible... an epiphany of sorts... she always kept me at arms length... and now I know why... she was always afraid that I was just another guy her mom was with and wouldn't be here long... didn't want to get too close because she didn't want to get hurt...didn't want to see the same thing happen to me that happened to her dad...Well the nightmare for her continues...and mine has just begun...I feel so bad for her...

Unfortunately, your wife does not have a track record of building and maintaining healthy relationships.

She has been very destructive to those who love her.

The worst damage is to her child.

Very unfortunate.

(You changed your name!
I like it!)

Do you think there is there any hope for her or our marriage?

Yes. But not soon and not without more pain and suffering.

WW has not surrendered herself to God. She remains willfully 'entitled' in her mind to continue this course.

Hope and expectations are not one in the same -

You can hope - but try really hard to avoid expectations that you control the outcome of what her choices will be.

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

Have you read Mortarman's story?

It's very inspiring.

I'll see if I can find the link.

Bullet - the thing in italics below is from an old thread of mine - how to offer hope for recovery to the WS.

Your wife seems to be one who burns her bridges behind her ... maybe she has never considered she can be forgiven?

Anywho, take a look.

I cannot find one thread explaining Mortarman's story.

His wife's affair was horrible. Their kids suffered. Wife moved out but MM kept the kids with him. The affair lasted YEARS ... And divorce was to be final in a few days ... and guess what?

They reconciled, and they had another child !

Against all odds <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mortarman developed a PLAN & stuck to it..
Mortarman spoke to Steve Harley & together they made changes to the PLAN as the situation developed.
It was like a freaking WAR room his plan !

(Mortarman is military ... can you tell?)
A_MAZ_ING

Mortarman deepened his faith and that is where he went for the strength to carry on when all seemed lost.




Offering forgiveness and understanding.

by this I mean .... suggesting to the confused foggy affair-addicted spouse that there is HOPE for the marriage even though what they are doing is awful ... there is a map leading to home

often their thinking is thus: "It's too late now. I've done too much damage ... my spouse could never forgive me, so I might as well continue with the affair."

You, the sane spouse, need to squash that belief that they can never be forgiven for what they have done.
You do not need to forgive them right away, but offer them the hope of a future where all is forgiven.

you can word it something like this:

All of us do things we regret. When I think of some of my past mistakes, I am extremely grateful for having been forgiven by those I've hurt. I want to be in the position to offer you that same grace. I have been forgiven, so I inderstand what it feels like to be in a position where you hope forgiveness is possible. It is possible.

Pep

I've seen this post... read it... It meant alot to me... With my wife being an alcoholic... and forgivness being one of the 12 steps... She said somthing about this... That she didn't know if she could be forgiven for all her disgressions... at the time I thought she ment her EX...

On the day she moved out... she left with the truck... then came back almost immediately... We talked a little... I told her I was sorry for neglecting her... (We havn't had sex in 7 months and didn't communicate at all the last 6 weeks.) She said she forgave me and that she didn't hate me... she was crying... and so was I...

Looking at your last post this gives me a little hope... And I think I have a new screen name...(as many times as I have changed you'd think I have a multiple personality disorder...LOL) Its appropriate for me and I want to tell you why but not in a public forum...

What branch of the military are you in?

Navy...

I thought I saw a somthing you said in one of you're post... maybe the carrot and the stick...

Somthing about a lighthouse... and that you should be the light at the end of the tunnel...

I have a counseling session scheduled with Jennifer tonight...

Hopefully she can give me some advice on what to do...

After talking to my SD this weekend... I found out that the cozy couple has already had a fight... the reality is already setting in for WW...And I haven't even done anything yet...

I had my counseling with Jennifer. After talking to her here’s what we decided to do…

I’m not going to expose yet…I’m supposed to give her an attractive alternative to this guy…Give her a reason to come back…

I’m supposed to start righting letters to her… Jennifer is going to look at the first few…

She said the letters have to have HEART … PASSION…

The other thing that I’m supposed to do is come up with three sheets….

One for “Why am I doing this”

One for Her Needs…

One for my love busters…

Comments???

Comments:

Be the lighthouse!

The love you have in your heart is obvious to us here ... so shine that light ( as per Jennifer )

LETTERS can be read - re read - and re re read .... LETTERS can ~be there~ with your wife when you cannot ( Yeah Jennifer ! )

Now go do your homework AmazingSailor !

lmao...

You make me smile Pepper...

I've been waiting to hear from you...

SD's dad called me today... WOW...

He's never talked to me...

If he called the house and I answerd he would hang up...

He said she did the same thing to him...TWICE with two differnt men just like I said... He said SD called him crying... mom is never home... He called my WW and the OM answered her phone... He said the guy threatend to beat him to death...

I felt real akward talkin to him... was kinda strange...

Amazing
( Tyler / R. Supa )

I kept the right ones out
And let the wrong ones in
Had an angel of mercy
To see me through all my sins
There were times in my life
When I was goin' insane
And tryin' to walk through the pain

When I lost my grip
And I hit the floor
Yeah I thought I could leave
But couldn't get out the door... heh ha
I was so sick n' tired
Of livin' a lie
I was wishing that I... would die

It's amazing
With the blink of an eye
You finally see the light
Oh... It's amazing
A when the moment arrives
That' ya know you'll be alright
Yeah... It's amazing
And I'm saying a prayer
For the desperate hearts tonight

That one last shot's a permanent vacation
And how high can you fly with broken wings
Life's a journey not a destination
And I just can't tell just what tomorrow bring... yeah
You have to learn to crawl
Before you learn to walk
But I just couldn't listen
To all that righteous talk... oh yeah
I was out on the street
Just tryin' to survive
Scratchin' to stay... alive

It's amazing
A with a blink of an eye
You finally see the light
Oh... it's amazing
A when the moment arrives
That'choo know you'll be alright
Oh... it's amazing
And I'm sayin' a prayer
For the desperate hearts tonight
The desperate hearts
Desperate hearts
Really wanna see what I can give what I got
Oh oh no
Wha na naa na na naaaa..... ooohhhha yeah.....

So... from all of us in Aerosmith
To all of you out there wherever you are
Remember...
The light at the end of the tunnel
May be you
Goodnight

Just a little something that gives me hope that my WS could someday see the light...

This is probobly about drug addiction but it seems to fit...

Be the light at the end of the tunnel... be that "angle of mercy"

[color:"blue"]One day Solomon decided to humble Benaiah Ben Yehoyada, his most trusted minister.

He said to him, "Benaiah, there is a certain ring that I want you to bring to me. I wish to wear it for Sukkot which gives you six months to find it."

"If it exists anywhere on earth, your majesty," replied Benaiah, "I will find it and bring it to you, but what makes the ring so special?"

"It has magic powers," answered the king. "If a happy man looks at it, he becomes sad, and if a sad man looks at it, he becomes happy."

Solomon knew that no such ring existed in the world, but he wished to give his minister a little taste of humility.

Spring passed and then summer, and still Benaiah had no idea where he could find the ring.

On the night before Sukkot, he decided to take a walk in one of the poorest quarters of Jerusalem. He passed by a merchant who had begun to set out the day's wares on a shabby carpet. "Have you by any chance heard of a magic ring that makes the happy wearer forget his joy and the broken-hearted wearer forget his sorrows?" asked Benaiah.

He watched the grandfather take a plain gold ring from his carpet and engrave something on it. When Benaiah read the words on the ring, his face broke out in a wide smile.

That night the entire city welcomed in the holiday of Sukkot with great festivity.

"Well, my friend," said Solomon, "have you found what I sent you after?"

All the ministers laughed and Solomon himself smiled. To everyone's surprise, Benaiah held up a small gold ring and declared, "Here it is, your majesty!"

As soon as Solomon read the inscription, the smile vanished from his face.

The jeweler had written three Hebrew letters on the gold band:

_gimel, zayin, yud_, which began the words "_Gam zeh ya'avor_" --

"This too shall pass."

At that moment Solomon realized that all his wisdom and fabulous wealth and tremendous power were but fleeting things, for one day he would be nothing but dust. [/color]

This too shall pass.

Remember this when things are not going your way.

Remember this when you are celebrating success.

My hope is that you find serenity in there words "This too shall pass."

This is the attitude of a human lighthouse.

Thank you for that, Pepperband!

Thank you pepper...

How did you get so wise?

I want to hear your story...

Wow... Listen to this...

I sent an email to WW yesterday while I was at work... she never responded so I sent another asking if she got the first one before I left for home.

She sent me an email back this morning saying she wasn’t at work yesterday…

My daughter was sick this weekend when my stepdaughter was over to visit…So I sent another email asking if they were sick… She replied she stayed at home because of S-T-R-E-S-S…. LMAO

She said SD’s dad has been calling her cell phone continually at all hours of the day and night and leaving nasty messages…. Threatening to take her to court…have police check on the welfare of SD… is going to come get SD and take her back to home state…etc etc etc… She also said her and SD have been constantly fighting and that SD is having a hard time “Adjusting”…(The truth is SD is really pissed at her mom…Said she doesn’t need another man in her life right now and doesn’t want OM in the house at all… She is seriously considering going to live with her dad.)

I saw an opportunity…and took it…I know one of her emotional needs is conversation and another is family commitment.

Sent her an email saying how sorry I was that she was having such a hard time… I then went on to explain why I changed my mind about stepdaughter coming to visit…(I also told SD when she was here that she could come over anytime.) I said that if there was a lot of tension in her house that SD could come visit any time…if for nothing else to give her safe place to come to in order to give SD a respite from the tension and drama…

Then in the same email I said….

On my darkest days I always need a little inspiration…. Maybe this will help….

Then I put the story of Solomon and Benaiah Ben Yehoyada it the email and at the end also put….

This too shall pass.

Remember this when things are not going your way.

Remember this when you are celebrating success.

My hope is that you find serenity in the words "This too shall pass."


Here’s where it starts to get good….LMAO…

She sends me an email back saying “I see you’re using AA (Alcoholics Anonymous) sayings…lol”

I responded with… “No… Someone sent that to me and it meant a lot to me… I just thought I would share it with you…

She responds: “That’s an AA saying… you know “like one step at a time” this too shall pass… etc..”

I responded with this just to get her thinking… “Oh, I didn’t know that… Maybe that’s where she got it from.”

So I leave work and drive home…(About an hour drive) She calls me 3 times and is having brake problems on her car… (I’m sure OM probably came to give her a ride and she ended the call before he could figure out who she was talking to…) All three times she ends the conversation with…”ok HONEY I gotta go… And said she was going to call me tomorrow…

LMAO…

Comments from the peanut gallery????

My DD asked me if my SD could spend the night. I said sure why don’t you call her and see if she wants to come over.

Well they talked for a while and then my DD handed me the phone and said SD wanted to talk to me.

She said she probably couldn’t spend the night because her mom wouldn’t be home until 8:00 and she had plans for tomorrow. Maybe she would spend the night next week. Then she said that the reason she wanted to talk to me was because she didn’t want me to reveal the affair yet. SD and her mom got in a fight and took away her phone for two days… I asked what happened and she told me.

SD said that after she left my house on Monday she had a long talk with her mom about the OM. She explained how she felt about him, and that she didn’t want him around. WW started crying and said that her and OM had a big fight and was probably already over.

Then she said that on Tuesday WW didn’t come home at usual time. She called her mom and could hear the OM in the background. SD was very upset and her mom told her she was not going to talk to her about it right now and hung up. SD said her dad called SD several times to see if SD was by herself and if her mom was home. When mom wasn’t home at 8:45 SD’s dad called my WS. OM answered the phone. SD’s dad went ballistic. WS went home and accused SD of being a traitor and telling her dad about the OM. (Duh… The OM answered the phone…and threatened to beat SD’s dad to death…HELLO! Is there anybody in there?)

I think she’s loosing it… <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I guess all is not well in adulteryland now that WW is getting a dose of reality with SD and her EX.

om sounds dangerous.

I am concerned that the ex called you and tells you that WW did this to him also. This is good info. But also bad cause it sounds like WW is a serial cheater. I am glad the ex called you, sounds like he cares about his DD and is reaching out, this is good.

Hang in there and be the good dad, keep up the plan A, since this is what you are choosing, to save your M.

WW has already lost it, is deep in the fog although I hope what is going on, the reality, will help to bring her out.

I feel so terribly bad for your SD. Kids really do get hurt so much, she might be better off with her Father.

Good luck and God Bless

Love in Christ,
Miss M

Hmmmmm.... her ex... not sure what to think about him yet...

I think he's a bitter man who hasn't forgiven...

And I concur about reality... mabybe this will wake her up and bring her out of the fog...I think she is a serial cheater... what a way to live life... She must be carrying around a ton of GUILT. Well you know what they say... You reap what you sow...

I don't know if what I'm in is plan A... She dosn't know that I know... Had a counseling with Jenifer and we decided not to reaveal just yet...I'm supposed to write her letters every two or three days...Letters with Heart...

I feel really bad for SD too... And actually this has brought her and I closer... She used to keep me at arms length before...not so much now... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Weekends are tuff... During the week when I'm working it takes my mind off of this some what...

But during the weekend I have a tendency to dwell on my situation and my WS. Idle time I guess...

I need to keep busy and try and keep my mind on other things. But that's hard to do sometimes. I'm still not sleeping or eating very well and feel like I'm emotionally exhausted.

Jennifer gave me a couple of assignments during my counseling session with her.

She wants me to fill out three sheets... one on why I'm doing this. One on Her needs. And one on Love Busters.

The other thing I'm supposed to do is write my WS a Short letter (Just a couple of paragraphs) every 2 or 3 days...Somthing that comes from the Heart and with passion...

I seem to have writers block... Or maybe its just stress... Anyway I'm having a difficult time finding something to write about...

Anybody have any suggestions?

You need to be out doing fun things. That will make this easier to get through. Then you can write your wife about your activities. Make it a short, fun note.

Thanks believer,

I know... I'm just not motivated right now...I did make a to-do list yesterday and got all but 2 done...

I did come up with 50 reasons why I wanted to save my marriage...

I have been reading a little...

I was thinking the other way too... Why would I want to get a divorce...I didn't really make a list because I could only come up with 2 or 3 reasons...All of them had to do with an un-willingness on her part to make a change...

I know it's un-healthy for me to be in a funk like this... especially for my kids... I do have some good days... and they're getting to be more frequent... It just seems that when I'm left to stay Idle is when the hurt sets in again...

I do have a question for some of the vets out there...

Jennifer kind of pointed me in a direction that I didn't think she would... Not exposing... And instead writing these letters...And maybe exposing later...

Any thoughts on why? I mean everything I read on hear say's expose expose expose...

Your first step needs to be to put on your own oxygen mask. Then you will be able to care for everyone else.

I forced myself to get out and do things. I let workmates, friends, and neighbors know that I wanted to do ANYTHING. Then I just made myself do it. It was difficult at first, but gets easier, and helps to raise your self esteem out of the toilet.

Your wife is going to need to hit bottom and stop drinking. That is up to her, and you can't do anything about her choices.

But you CAN save yourself and your family.

Pepperband seems to think shes on a dry drunk... Or maybe a low bottom drunk... That she has to loose everything before she decides to make a change...As far as I know she hasn't had a drop in over 3 months...

That is good. At least it is a start. Now your job is to save YOURSELF. You need to get busy making a good life, and hope that she will decide to join you.

Exercise, get out and about, do fun things, get back to hobbies, and realize that your life needs to go on.

I spent MONTHS being miserable. That is the only thing I regret - all the WASTED time.

Well I have been working out... I did 5 miles on the treadmill on Friday...

And I do have a couple of things that I have already seen a doctor about... (Snoring for one, and I'm taking medicine to help me quit smoking)

I did go out with some friends on wednesday... and went to a going away luncheon on friday...

I do like fishing but... it's kinda cold for that right now...

Maybe by the my next paycheck I'll feel a little more like getting out and not having to penny pinch so much...

RIF, I saw your picture... Lt. Col?... For some reason I had you pegged as enlisted like me...

Pepper, I saw your picture too...I'll have to put mine on there...

BTW... I have had so many nicknames in real life I cant count them all... but here's a few

Koolaide
Hudini
Tuna Man
Amazin-----> Has to do with my last name... and a popular Hymn

"I do like fishing but... it's kinda cold for that right now..."

Zip on over to the fishing thread on the Recreation board. There are some excellent fishing pointers.

Exercise is good. Might as well stay in shape.

And dig up some fun stuff that doesn't cost much money.

Hey Amazin - I'm an enlisted guy at heart! I know where I came from and I sure know who runs the military... it's great NCO's like yourself!

I didn't realize that that you'd changed your name until just a day or so ago... you've got some real experts helping you so I'll just pop in and be your cheering section when I can!

Semper Fi,

RIF

Thanks RIF,

I appreaciat it and all the advice you've given me so far... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks RIF... But we have a saying in the Chief's Mess...

"We don't run the Navy, We just make the Navy run"
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hey Amazin,

Just checking in to see how you're doing today... I hope all is well back home.

Semper Fi,

RIF

Thanks RIF,
What a diffence a day makes.
Yesterday was a good day... And today is going to be another.

Be Safe.

That's great!!!

Take it one day at a time... enjoy the good days, and prepare yourself for the down days...

I guess all of the snow has the TB all in their caves... not much activity now and I hope it stays that way!

Semper Fi,

RIF

Three good days in a row... what do ya know!

Morning Amazin! That's great to hear. Thanks for the update!

Semper Fi,

RIF

It was a good day... but a tough one too...
I havn't had a cigarette all day... I was craving earlier but I'm all right now.

I went to my counselor yesterday. One of the things she suggested is that I start a journal. Start writing things down on paper... if I want to vent... etc... I guess if I can put my feelings on paper It may help me to verbalize them better...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Two days... No cigarettes...

WW is still in fantasy land... (AKA Adultery Land)

I sent her a very warm heart felt email yesterday...

She said she was busy at work and never had a chance to read it.

But her actions tell me somthing different...she called me as soon as she got off work just to chit chat... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

She talked to me all the way to her apartment... Then had to let me go so she could smoke a cigarette and go to her AA meeting. (that she wasn't at) Then she spent the rest of the evening with OM at her apt...

Cake eater...

Hey Amazin,

good for you on the cigarettes!

I know it's hard knowing that your W is with the OM... but it sounds like you're doing great!

Journaling really helped me...

Semper Fi,

RIF

Three days...Still no cigarettes...Working on the fourth. If I can make it through this weekend I think that will be a big hurdle.

I cant believe how much better I feel after 3 days... I can actually smell things again…(Sometimes that may not be a good thing….LOL)

I ran on Monday... stopped smoking on Wednesday... ran again on Friday... cut 36 seconds off my 1½ mile run time. 12:44. One of my goals was to be less than 12 minutes by late May…. I think I’m going to blow past that…

I went to the Dentist on Thursday because I have a veneer on a tooth that I want to get fixed. I asked the dentist what the Military could do to improve and whiten my smile… He said there’s a ton of stuff that the Military can do now that wasn’t available just a few years ago. He did a quick exam and said I’d make a great candidate for a complete restoration… New crowns, white fillings, bleaching, veneers… before and after pictures …the whole 9 yards… I was AMAZED…LOL (My entire military career, military dentistry always seemed to be about function… not ascetics. How it looks cost more money… the government doesn’t want to foot the bill. It’s nice to see this change)

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Good Morning Amazin!

They say if you can hold out for a week, that you'll be home free! Only a couple more days!

I cracked a tooth on my last tour over here and they couldn't do anything for me in theater, so they told me to wait and get it fixed when I got home... When I got to the MOB station, they said "you're a reservist, you'll have to go through the VA".

I told them that I was on AD when I cracked my tooth and that they needed to fix it. They still wouldn't budge. So I called the VA when I finally got home. I talked to a very nice lady that said that yes, they could schedule me for an appointment... three months down the road!

Three months later I made the appointment and was looking forward to finally getting my tooth fixed only to find out that the first appointment was only a 'screening' appointment... so I made the actual dental appointment for the next MONTH.

Gotta love the VA!!!

Semper Fi,

RIF

If you cracked your tooth on active duty then the military should fix it...

Isn't that how it works? If you break your leg on active duty do they tell you... sorry you're a reservist...go to the VA?? I wouldn't acccept that answer without a fight...

I quit once before for about 30-40 days... I think 90 days of not smoking could be considered a succsess...

Oh they fixed it... but it took 4 months and putting up with the VA system to get it fixed!

Well, then let's go for the full 90 days! How's everything else going for you?

Semper Fi,

RIF

I'm doing better every day...

WW is still in fantasy land... fence sitting... she said something to me in an email..."I need to figure out what I'm going to do"...

I'm sure she's confused... It's strange... we haven't been ugly to each other at all... the little bit of communication that we do have has been very civil. There are times that I think she misses me... based on her actions... Calls...emails... etc... But.... she's still seeing and spending time with OM...

Hey Amazin,

Until she bottoms out, I suspect that she's going to continue to spend time with the OM.

You're doing good in not focusing on trying to "fix" her... continue to take care of yourself and the kids... hopefully, she will wake up and realize what she's loosing.

Semper Fi,

RIF

I don't enjoy saying this , however, here it is:

"Until she bottoms out, I suspect that she's going to continue to spend time with the OM" .... or the NEXT OM.

Historically, alcohol has not been her only way to run away from her demons. She has used men (&sex) as a numbing drug.

Do you know if she suffered sexual abuse as a child? Especially from a trusted friend of the family?

I've always suspected sexual abuse … But I'm not sure...

When we first met she had something she wanted to tell me... very emotional... but she couldn't follow through... She never did…

She would have bad dreams... she would reach out… pull me to her… start thrashing and then say no…no…no… I think it was an act because I’m almost positive she wasn’t really asleep when she would do this…

I know everyone is different … what would be her bottom? Loosing me, her daughter, her stepchildren, brothers, sisters, and parents who won’t have anything to do with you? Thousands of dollars of debt?

just curious what you think…

Well I gotsta go… I’ve got to take my daughter to try and get her drivers permit… then I’m going to paint a bedroom.

no idea - none

OK I'm back... The only thing worse than going to the DMV is going to the Social Security Office… Red tape… hurry up and wait… Damn Government Employees… (Oh wait… I resemble that remark…working for DOD and all…..LOL) My daughter didn’t pass… I have to take her back. Yuck! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />



Without asking her or her family… Are there any indicators that would suggest she was abused? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I was only wondering if she shared any history of that sort with you.

'indicators' might be promiscuity and using sex to hold onto someone

She never shared with me that she had a history of sexual abuse. But like I said… I have a feeling she does…because of this THING she’s always wanted to tell me about but hasn’t been able to…It’s just a feeling on my part… But one based on past experience. My first wife was sexually abused by her grandfather. It really screwed her up…

She’s definitely promiscuous.

Using sex to hold onto someone? I’m not sure what you mean… Can you explain?

There is one other thing that happened to her when she was young... 16, 17 or 18... She was dating her first husband in VT... They broke up... she went to TX for 4-6 months... Met someone else and dated him for a while... She ended up going back to VT getting pregnant and marrying her first husband... On her wedding day the boyfriend in TX was killed... I got the impression it was suicide by car… She would only give me bits and pieces of the story… she never really told me the whole thing…

Our MC told me very early on that generally speaking, women will give sex to get affection, while men will give affection to get sex.

In my situation, that's exactly what Mrs. RIF did... she gave herself away sexually in order to have the "affection" of other men...

Semper Fi,

RIF

Sounds like every single man and woman out there…

I’m not sure that’s what Pepperband meant… And your MC said “generally speaking”… meaning… this how men and women typically act…

4 days no cigarettes…. Wooo hooo!!!!

I just drove by my favorite pub ... Guess who's car was in the parking lot...

I think she might be getting ready to take a fall off the wagon... This pub has really good food.... but I doubt she could go in and not have a beer...

I talked to her earlier... she just left church... she was supposed to call and we were going to talk...

In the past if there was somthing she had difficulty talking about she would drink to loosen her tongue up...

Makes me wonder if she's afraid of talking to me....

Should I go to the bar?... Any thoughts??? Not sure what I'd do if the OM was there with her... I might loose it...

If you might lose it, don't go. You know she is cheating, and frankly that is enough. The more you "catch her" at it, the fastest your love bank will drain and you may lose your love for her.

Instead find something that you enjoy doing and DO IT.

She know's I go there... Why would she go there???

Just to flaunt it in my face if she has the opportunity?

The other reason may be that its a cry for help...

She is probably not thinking right. Continue your Plan A. Do you have any plans for the day?

I'm painting my daughter’s room... we picked the color out together... kind of a sky blue…

WW and I talked on the phone... She didn't say anything about the pub...

I asked about her first marriage... and the boyfriend who died on her wedding day... At first she got defensive... and asked “Why? So your counselor can tell you how you did everything right in the marriage and I did everything wrong?” I said. “No… I know I did a lot of stuff that was screwed up and I’m fully responsible for my actions.” … She relaxed quite a bit after that…. I explained that she told me about it before but never really went into details… and I felt like she always had something she wanted to tell me but couldn’t… I thought that maybe there might be more to the boyfriend dying on your wedding day than you told me… She opened up and told me about it…

Long story short… she found out that he died on her wedding day about a month after the marriage… She called the mother to find out where he was and she told her he was dead… Killed himself in a car crash at exactly the same time she got married… I’m sure she feels super guilty to this day…

We talked a little longer… she said she was having a really bad day…. (Probably why she was at the pub… Maybe her and OM had an argument?? or broke it off... That's the only thing I can think of that would send her to the pub after 120+ days of being sober...) I offered to cook dinner for her and my SD if she wanted to come over… she declined… I told her it was an open invitation... and that she could take me up on it anytime...

Said she may call me later if she feels up to it…

5 days no cigarettes... working on number 6 today...

Getting stronger every day!

Hey Amazin!

Congratulations on Day 5!

So has your W called you? Hope you're doing OK...

Semper Fi,

RIF

I'm doing great... Yesterday was day 6 and today is 7. Feeling stronger everyday. Did my 1 ½ Mile run in 12:17 yesterday… I’m gonna blow past my goal and have to re-adjust. I've lost 17 Lbs. since the first of the year... Have another 15 to go...

My wife and I still talk... mostly small talk... Occasionally something relationship related... I sent her an e-card yesterday... She said she really appreciated it...

With St. Valentines day coming up… I was thinking about sending my WW some flowers… Nothing too expensive maybe $40 or $50…

Any thoughts???

Should I???

Shouldn’t I???

Morning Amazin!

One week today, huh? That's great!!!

I'd definitely get your W something for Valentines day... doesn't have to be expensive, but the fact that you remember will make a large deposit in her love bank...

Semper Fi,

RIF

Thanks RIF...

She doesn't like roses... Never has... which is strange because she has a rose tattoo...

I found something at www.proflowers.com that I think I'm going to send... Red tulips and blue iris's... It's called "Hugs & Kisses"...lol <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Anybody else have any thoughts?

Nobody else has any thought on wether I should send WW anything on valentines?

Single red rose arangement from a florist. Understated, effective, not pushy, clingy or desparate.

I vote for sending the flowers, but I would also have them attach a long lasting momento to the flowers. A little figurine of some sort. It will last long after the flowers
and she will have to think of you every time she sees it.


GF

a charm bracelet <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

She doesn’t like roses... She likes wildflowers...


I like that Idea... and the charm bracelet...

When I proposed to my wife I took her to a very romantic Italian restaurant. It had a big grand piano in the middle of the restaurant. All the waiters and waitresses sang. All the booths had doors on them for privacy… In the booths there was tons of graffiti… So n so loves So n so… etc… So n so proposed here on 15 June 2000.

When I proposed I gave her 4 fake roses that I made out of Hershey Kisses, red cellophane paper and plastic stems. Each rose had a little note attached to it. The last one had a paper engagement ring that I had made that said “Will you marry me?” on it.

Anyway… Another Paper ring maybe? Or maybe a similar setup with a real ring with the same inscription…

Any thoughts?

The funny thing is we didn't tell the kids we were engaged right away... One Sunday about a week after I proposed we took all 5 kids to the pool at the base... On the way the subject of Marrage came up... All the kids were Chanting "Ask, Ask, Ask, Ask!" as loud as they could... My wife and I just looked at each other and smiled because I already did... After the pool we went to her mothers house... and again they were chanting Ask Ask Ask...

So for them I got down on one knee and asked her to marry me again... They all cheered...

LOL...

Amazin,

I haven't had time to catch up on your thread yet. I'll try to get to it later tonight, but I did want to tell you I replied to you on the fishing thread and left you a note there to read the rest of the thread from the beginning, if you haven't done so yet. There's a little more there than fishing stories...

Send the flowers, maybe something little but special. I wouldn't spend a weeks salary right now, but let her know you are still thinking of her.

If you can recreate the fake roses again, I think that would be a super idea, BTW.

Mark

Haven't read the thread.


But yes, you should buy yourself something nice for valentines day!

A gym membership? A new big screen? Perhaps a vacation somewhere warm where the drinks have umbrellas in them?

Thanks for all the advice everyone...

ONE WEEK NO CIGARETTES Yea!!!!!

Sounds like you are doing very well talking to your wife. That is the way to deal with all of this. Show her you can be that guy she fell in love with again, and a much better alternative.

You have 5 kids? I must have missed THAT one.

I'll pitch in with a Valentine's Day question, too. I'm just divorced, and still attempting to win her back, by working on myself first. She is involved, at least emotionally, with a guy in another state. I want to do something for her for V-Day, just not something romantic. She's going to be out of town on a business trip (its possible she'll be seeing OM, I don't know, though) and I thought about just putting a card in her luggage. Nothing too romantic, just a "Hey, I still care about you" deal. Good idea? Bad idea? Should I do something else?

Thanks Believer,

I have 3 and she has 2. But only 3 girls lived with us recently.

I asked her if she still had the paper ring...She gave me a bunch of fog speak about she threw it out when she moved out and that she was done with it... and why hang on to something that makes you miserable... Yada yadi ya....

I was hurt... Told her that really made me sad... I told her that ring had alot of sentimental meaning to me...

She said the ring was hers and that it should of had sentimental value to her...not me...

I told her it did have sentimental value to me... A Lot... that was the ring I put on her finger when I proposed.

I asked her if she threw anything else out and she basically said it wasn't any of my buisness...

So anyway... for Valentines I think I'm going to get her some flowers... Attach a ring to them that has the inscription "I owe you one" (That's what was on the paper ring)

Maybe deliver them personally??? In my dress blues...

Any thoughts?

8 days... Still no cigarettes... Today is #9... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Morning Amazin! Congrats on 8 days and for starting on day 9!!!

Hope you're having a good week and that you find something nice for your W... I ordered Mrs. RIF and the girls some 'personalized' M&Ms...

Semper Fi,

RIF

Thanks RIF. Nine days down today is day 10. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ten days down!

I'm supposed to go with the WW and get our taxes done today.

I'm really irritated because I know the OM slept at her apt last night. Really pisses me off. I'm going to keep my cool though. get the taxes done, get the check in my acct. And get away from her before I say something REAL UGLY.

Congrats on Day 10!

I hope that you have your finances separated from your WW... No sense in you financing her A....

Semper Fi,

RIF

Our finances are separate. We just want to file jointly to get a larger return.

We went to H & R Block... after 10 minutes we decided that the person was an idiot. We talked about it and decided to get the software and do it ourselves.

The only problem with that is neither one of us trusts the other person. If we get a direct deposit which account do we put it in??? Mine??? Hers??? If we have a check mailed … whose address?

A conundrum so to speak.

We went to breakfast after H & R Block. It was the first time we’ve really seen each other since January 13th. We were civil. Had a nice breakfast. Had some small talk nothing serious. I paid for breakfast. After she dropped me off and I kissed her on the forehead and said good bye. The whole time at breakfast and when I was saying good bye she seemed like she was very emotional and ready to cry… but she kept a poker face and didn’t show her emotions.

I’m usually pretty good about reading emotions and people. She seems to be sad about being apart…She was on the verge of crying when I said goodbye… but at the same time the OM spent the night at her apt… waited there for her while she was with me and then she went right back to him at the apt.

Anyone have any insights to her mind here? Is it just confusion and guilt on her part? Or a deception???

Maybe a former WW can enlighten me...

I have another dilemma.

I did our taxes with Turbo Tax yesterday. I did a joint return, then two “married filing separately” returns. (One for each of us.)

I need some tax advice… is there a tax accountant out there?… please speak up!

First… Our home mortgage is in my name only but the deed is in both our names. If I file separately can I claim all the interest and homeowners tax on my return… or do I have to split it with the wife?

If it’s mine only to claim… then I get screwed filing a joint return and my wife gets a good deal… If I file a separate return I get about 1800 more and she gets 1100 less. (This is all based on me getting all the tax benefits of paying the mortgage.)

HELP!



Does anyone have any comments on her behavior.

I’m trying to read her actions but she’s sending me a mixed signal.

I'm a CPA out in the real world. For taxes, the person who pays the mortgage is the one entitled to the deduction. If you can prove that the funds came from your earnings, you can take the entire deduction on the return. Now, that doesn't mean that she won't claim 1/2 of it herself, and then you may have to get into it with the IRS. However, you may have the stronger case if your social security number is on the 1098. Its just kind of a heads-up that this could potentially be an issue that rears its head again down the road, and you could spend the $700 difference in accounting fees trying to challenge the IRS. Or, it may be that your CPA tells you that she's the one taking the risk. I would definitely NOT do your return on Turbo Tax this year. Find a good CPA in your area and take it to him/her.

EOTP,
Thanks for the advice. What I read on the IRS website seemed to indicate that it depends on wether you're a resident of a community property state or not. Also the payment was always through an online bill pay from my bank. It was a joint account but not anymore. I think you're right I need to talk to a professional.

My social security number is the only one on the 1098. My name is the only one on the mortgage. But both our names are on the deed.

Day 13... Still no cigarettes... two weeks tomorrow.

OK... I talked to a couple of CPA's and I called the IRS help line today.

The answer I got from the IRS was… In order to claim the mortgage interest as an itemized deduction … it has to be YOUR mortgage not someone else’s… I.E. If your living in your mom and dads house that they have a mortgage on and you’re making the payments for them you still can’t claim the interest because the mortgage is not in your name…. So… Even if I file a separate return with only half the interest… she can’t file a separate return claiming the other half because her name isn’t on the mortgage… It doesn’t matter that her name is on the deed… it’s irrelevant.

I basically got the same answer from both the CPA’s I talked to. It’s my mortgage that’s in my name so I’m the only one who can claim it on a tax return.

Now my dilemma is…

Should I file jointly or separately?

If I do decide file a separate return how do I tell her that? She’s expecting to file together so she can get a bigger return. Should I just tell her the truth and say sorry… but you made the decision to move out instead of staying. I’m looking out for the best interest of my kids and me. Or… should I just say… sorry I changed my mind… I don’t feel comfortable filing together and trusting you to give me my half of the return. (Which is still true... then not say anything about me getting a bigger return) And since you don’t trust me with money maybe the best thing for us to do is just file separately…

In some ways I feel she may be using me to get a bigger chunk of money so she can continue her affair and pad her war chest in the event we do get divorced. I called her on the phone the other day and she said she spent her whole lunch hour arguing with the bank. (Could it be that they wouldn’t give her the 1098 document for her taxes? Hmmm…)

Comments Please

Amazin:

I used to think that the IRS shouldn't benefit from your marital troubles.

I still think that, but in reality, with WS's, I just about determined that the IRS getting the money is better than the WS making a promise to "split" the refund, and running off with it anyway.

Screw her. She left.

I would have not gone anywhere near the HRB office. But she didn't react well to that reality, did she?

Kinda of a good internal conflict to have slept with OM and do taxes with your Husband the next morning.

Claim the interest, and the taxes, You paid it, she didn't. She's gone.

Guess what? She doesn't like it? Tell her to get over it. Her choice.

She's a recovering alcoholic and chronic cheater.

Please let her fall.

Will you get in trouble with the IRS?

Yes, when she FILES and claims all the mortgage interest and taxes because, "Well it increased my REFUND"

Then YOU have to argue with the IRS for what is yours.....

So, go ahead and file. Claim your kids, and the interest and RE Taxes. If you have access to her info, you CAN file joint, and just have the refund deposited in to YOUR account. Cut her check for what you think she is owed. If she wants more, have her sue you.

Otherwise, just leave her to file her own return. You can always file an amended return with her to be added to your return IF you reconcile.

Otherwise, "WS, This IS your life!"

BTW: I'm a CPA too. If you were sitting in my office, I might give you different advice. As Eyes recomended, a meeeting with a competent Tax Professional can make all the difference in the world at this time.

LG

Thanks LG,



The funny thing is when I did two separate returns on turbo tax… the total amount of money was more and I got a lot more… The WW got a lot less…



I don’t think she has any of the mortgage information and she can’t get it…. So how’s she going to use it on her return? Even if she does …the mortgage is affiliated with my SS number wouldn’t that be an error when she files?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I just told the WW that I was having second thoughts about filing a joint return.

She blew up…She immediately asked if I planned on using all the interest on the house as a deduction.

The fact that she asked that question first tells me she already looked into her taxes and about the mortgage and what she could and couldn’t do.

She got real upset and started telling me how I’ve been screwing her over ever since we got married and she’s not going to let me screw her over anymore. She said I’d been slitting her throat ever since we’ve been married. That every time we got any money for anything she got screwed. She said that I gambled away thousands of dollars… etc etc etc… I stayed real calm. I didn’t do any LB’s. But when she started saying how I’ve been F**king her over for the entire marriage and how I’m not going to F**K her over anymore… I almost lost my cool… I almost started to tell her all the things I’m resentful about including all her boyfriends… but… I bit my tongue.

I had a house when we met. I lived in it for 8 years before she moved in. I did a lot of work to fix it up before she moved in. After she moved in we both did a lot more work to get it ready to sell. A year after we got married we sold the house because I had to transfer. She feels I screwed her over because I paid off my vehicle, a boat and several of my bills but I only paid off a $2000 legal bill of hers. She feels she did all the work to fix that house up and deserved more. She’s very bitter about it. She’s also very bitter about me selling the boat that was in my name that I paid off with the profits from the house.

She’s very bitter and resentful about the money issues. She also feels that I just do whatever I want and she’s sick of it. I understand why she feels that way… I did gamble away some money. I did sell the boat with out asking her… I did do what I wanted … And I now know how hurtful that was in my marriage.

But…
I didn’t kiss another woman on our honeymoon.
I didn’t continue to see an old lover of mine after we were married.
I didn’t have and emotional affair and tell another woman that I loved her after we’d been married 3 years.
I didn’t have numerous female friends that I hung out with, went dancing and drinking with on a regular basis.
I didn’t get drunk on my anniversary and have a one-night stand.
And she sure didn’t have to drag me out of the other woman’s house the next morning.

And I’m sure not seeing another woman right now…

With all that… why am I still in love with this piece of S**t?

Why do I feel guilty about wanting to file a separate tax return?

Should I let any of her ranting and raving about money bother me? Even though it is a sore subject with her?

I could really use some good guidance and support here…

Sounds like you have not been following the policy of joint agreement in your financial matters for your whole marriage. I think you are going to need to start working on that.

Amazin:

Yes, the IRS gets the Mortgage Interest. And it gets reported to your SSN.

And she might get a letter from the IRS.

So what.

She's entitled to ALL THE MONEY. ALL THE BOYFRIENDS, EVERYTHING! MINE, MINE, MINE!

So What.

File your return. Use turbo tax and efile tonight.

Stop dealing with the lunatic. And start addressing her from a place of power.

You paid the mortgage. You get the deduction.

You paid the real estate taxes, You get the deduction.

She can't get the info? Surprising. It's really easy to get.

Not if your stupid, then it's a pain in the A$$.

I get the stuff all the time.

Now, about those earlier independent behaviors? Something to work on, and something to address.

Good job on NOT blowing your cool.

She isn't really interested in talking to you about it now. So don't worry about it.

Of course you were screwing her all the time about the money. It justifies her A. (A's?)

Dealing with those issues are for recovery. But not now.

"I hear what your saying, I DID some of those things without consulting you in the past. I have learned many things since then, and one of them is to discuss with you about decisions that should be made jointly.:

And let her stew.

LG

We haven't been following a POJA on anything in our marriage.

I'd either not do what she wanted... or do what I wanted...

But the majority of the time if we agreed on something it was usually because I didn't want to fight with her about it and I would just agree to pacify her... then not do it... I understand how frustrating that was for her now...

I have some passive aggressive tendencies... But I realize that now and I'm working on it...

A lot of times I felt painted into a corner... If I didn’t do what she wanted I got B**ched at…If I did what she wanted I still got B**ched at for not doing it exactly as she wanted... when she wanted it done… etc… At some point I probably decided if I was going to get B**ched at either way I might as well not do anything. (so far that plan really isn’t working out for me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />)

A small example: Laundry… I hate folding clothes… just one of those chores I don’t like. She wants her clothes put in the dryer and when the buzzer goes off you have to fold them immediately… while they’re hot…If you don’t then you have to re-heat them for 20 min. then fold them… It would make her mad to no end if I took her clothes out of the dryer and put them in a basket without folding them. A really stupid little thing that if we’d been using a POJA we could have easily overcome that problem…

And that’s just a little one… when it comes to the kids there’s tons more issues.

Hope you will keep reading about the POJA and also NEGOTIATING in marriage. It might help this marriage, and if things don't work out, will certainly help the next one.

I understand POJA and see how it would have solved a lot of our issues... marital and personal. If we would have been using it.

So... LG you say e-file tonight... And don't worry about her being pissed...

I'm just currious isn't that a huge love buster for her though? Especially since she's already resentful about it? Or is she making a mountain out of a mole hill to justify her Affair?

Anyone else have any advice?

Oh, you could give in to her and let her have her way, losing respect in her eyes for giving in, and screwing yourself financially. OR you could do as LG suggested and not worry about her suffering CONSEQUENCES of the choices SHE is making.

I think you know the right choice. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yes. Listen to LG.

If she were home and not screwing OM, then of course you'd file jointly. But she's not, and she is, so you file separately. Her missing out on the joint refund is another consquence of her actions.

Thanks Princess,

Thanks LG,

Thanks Bitbucket.

Big (((HUG))) and thanks to Believer. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have a question...

Pepperband may have a good answer for me but anyone can answer.

When I had breakfast with my wife on Saturday I noticed her getting stressed and agitated because of a crying baby. She reached into her purse and pulled something out. A medallion maybe??? She put it between her thumb and forefinger and began rubbing it like it was a way for her to keep from loosing her cool…I asked her what it was but she just said it was something a friend gave to her.

I’m just curious if anyone else has encountered something like this? Is this something they teach in AA to help someone cope with stress or to help them when they have the urge to drink?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Hey Chief
hang in there bro.
what your wife may have had is an AA "chip"
some AA meetings are "chip" meetings chips are shaped like a coin and commemerate certain lenghts of time "sober" like 1 day or 1 month or 1 year etc. chips often have the serenity prayer on them. She may have been told to rub the coin to calm down or to remind herself of her time" sober"
jerseyboy
did you ever attend an alanon meeting ?? did you find out who her sponsor is ???

Yes I know about the sobriety coins.

It may have been but I didn't get to see it. I thought it was oblong like a St. Christopher’s medal.

I haven’t been to an ALANON meeting yet. I don't know who her sponsor is. Pepperband said she probably doesn't have one right now and that she's probably not working the steps.

I had duty on base last night. WW called me crying at 8:30 PM. Her dog (her daughter’s dog) got ran over by a car last night and died. When she called I could tell that she had been crying. She said that her daughter was really upset about it and wanted to know if my SD could come over and spend some time with us so that she didn’t get real depressed. Of course I said yes. WW said SD might feel responsible because she was the one who let the dog out. I expressed to WW that I was very sad to hear about the dog getting hit. She got the dog when we were dating. I explained how I still cared about WW & SD, and that I was thinking about them. We had a 10 –15 minute chat and then she said she was going to put my SD to bed and comfort her.

WW called first thing this morning while she was on her way to work. We chatted for a while, nothing too serious. I finished up by confirming that SD was still coming over tonight.

Today is St. Valentines Day. So I went through with my plans to be nice to my WW. I got some flowers. (Red tulips and blue iris’s) I got the cheap silver ring with the engraving on it and a card. I got all dressed up in my dress blue uniform. (I’m one hunka hunka burnin man in that uniform! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> … LOL) I wrote a poem today and put it in a card. I swing by her work and go inside and I give her the flowers, the card and the ring.

Here’s the poem….

Even though we’re apart
You’re the only Valentine for my heart.
And I just wanted you to know
That I take a piece of you wherever I go.

I have a paper all faded and yellow.
It’s full of “I love you” notes for a special fellow.
It’s written in ink the color of green
It was written by you, my beautiful queen.

I read it once and sometimes twice a day
To remind me of you while you’re away.
And on days when I think of this terrible trial
I just look at your picture and it makes me smile.

The flowers I bring are called “Hugs and Kisses”
And they’re for you my beautiful Misses.
The ring is silver it needs no description.
Please don’t forget to read the inscription.

I long for the time when we reunite,
of tender days and passionate nights.
I pine for the good times that we spent together,
on bright sunny days and in stormy weather.

Take this poem wherever you go
So you don’t forget, so that you’ll know
Even though we’re apart
You’re still the only valentine for my heart.

She didn’t believe I wrote it… She wanted to know who helped me. LOL…

Let me explain the part about the note on yellow paper… Years ago she wrote me a note on yellow paper with green ink. It was full of I love this about you and I love that about you… etc… It meant a lot to me so I always kept it in my wallet. I still have it… I wrote her a similar note much later so that we would both have one. Apparently only one of us really meant what we said.


While I’m there she takes me outside and says that SD doesn’t want to come over because she’s too depressed. But maybe if my daughters call her she’ll change her mind. (I’m wondering if she took me outside to tell me this because no one at work knows we’re separated… and she’s cheating?)


WW dropped off SD this evening. The girls and I had a real nice time. She brought her other dog over to visit with my daughters. I ordered pizza, we exchanged valentines and just had a nice time. SD is coming back tomorrow to spend the night.

When SD and I had a moment alone I asked SD how WW was doing & if OM had been coming over to her house. I could see she was uneasy about this so I said she didn’t have to talk about it if she didn’t want to. She hesitated then said she didn’t want to talk about it because she would end up blaming her mom and OM for getting her dog killed. She said her mom let the dog out and was saying good night to OM outside when the dog got hit.

How crappy is that??? To just lie to me and tell me that SD may feel responsible. Why? To make me feel sorry for her and let her come to the house? She could have come over any time anyway.

BTW… when I went to get the pizza guess who was at WW’s apartment… yep… OM…

What a cake eating, faithless, deceiving cheater…

OK.. I feel much better now...especially since I filed my taxes...LOL

Poor dog. I'm sorry Amazin. That really stinks. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Amazin, sorry about the dog...the dead one an the one who keeps seeing OM.

That was a beautiful poem...well done.

A few years ago, my XW gave me a card with an insert in it, that says "Always remember, you are special, you are valued, you are loved." I keep that card on my bathroom mirror so I see it every day. When I wrote the XW's V-Day card (nothing too romantic), I reminded her of that card I look at every day, and that she, too, is special, valued and loved.

I may still have the original (big) card where she wrote in it "I love you so much." I know she still does, maybe your WS does, too, and they both just need to figure themselves out. As I said to another friend going through a D, "If this stuff was easy, we wouldn't be where we are in the first place."

Thank you LA, EOTP.

Yes the dog is a real bummer... But I had a real nice time on Valentines day with all my girls... SD brought the male dog over for a visit... He and the cat used to play at all hours of the day and night. They seemed to pick up right where they left off... We laughed...

SD stayed over last night and the girls and I are going to do something fun today. We kind of wanted to go bowling but the lanes are all booked up already... I'll have to find something else to do...

While I’m there she takes me outside and says that SD doesn’t want to come over because she’s too depressed. But maybe if my daughters call her she’ll change her mind.

Oh my...sounds like she was desperate to get her daughter out of the house for the night. She couldn't have her there and "celebrate" Valentines Day with her boyfriend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

So...she is cake eating. You are allowing this to happen because YOU can stop the cake eating.

She has two men competing for her attention and favors.

Once that starts happening Plan A should shift gears to Plan B.

Are you considering that?

committed

I don’t think so… SD knows about the OM… And I’m pretty sure he was there all of last weekend and so was SD… (Yes I know it’s disgusting. SD doesn’t want him there but WW is doing whatever her selfish soul desires.) I’m sure she would have done whatever she wanted regardless of SD’s location.



Not yet… I’m going to have another counseling session with Jennifer to see what direction she thinks I should go.

My understanding is that Plan A is kind of like a competition… It’s been said that men can stay in Plan A longer than women because of the competitive nature of males. It’s meant to put her in cake eater heaven and confuse her. Plan B is meant to pull the rug out from under her, let the affair die, protect the BS, let her see what it’s like not to have me in her life, and what life with the OM would be like if he had to meet all her needs…

Am I right?

Did you follow Jennifer's advice & write letters?

Hi Pepper.

Nice to hear from you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yes,
I've been writing pretty regularly...

Sometimes It's more of an internet conversation via email... I'm not sure if that's the right thing to do. I got the impression Jennifer wanted more of a traditional letter... Not a conversation via email.

I made her an offer to go get coffee sometime...or for me to cook dinner for her and SD. I told her it was an open invitation. She's refused every time, She said she wasn't ready for that. This morning when she came to pick up SD I asked if she wanted to get a coffee sometime... She said yes... I need to follow up and see when.

SD came over on Friday night and stayed until Sunday morning... She brought the dog for the girls... On Saturday I took them out to a local diner for breakfast. Then we went into the city to Dave and Busters. (It’s an arcade place with a restaurant.) We had a blast. They have this photo booth there… You get in and it takes your picture… then you can match your face with someone else’s hairstyle…Everyone outside the booth can see what’s on the screen… We all got one… We laughed and laughed…After that I took them to the Reading terminal… It’s like a farmers market in Philly that has a whole bunch of food vendors. We got something to eat then went home… We had a really nice weekend.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I just got off the phone with her... She's pissed because I filed my taxes separately. When I asked if she wanted to have coffee this morning that was before she asked me about the taxes. After she got out of her meeting she called and asked if I filed yet. When I told I did, she said “You may want to hold off on that, because I talked to an accountant…. Blah blah blah… I think I threw her for a loop when I told her I filed already. She wasn’t expecting me to say that.

When I called a few minutes ago she had all sorts of fog babble… That I’m out to screw her over and have been ever since the marriage started…That the only thing I care about is me… How she doesn’t trust me and doesn’t think she ever can. (That’s the pot calling the kettle black!) That she was getting to the point of not liking me… That I wasn’t ever going to change and that any changes I do make are only going to be temporary. Etc…

Needless to say I guess we’re not going out for coffee…LOL

I need to learn how to reverse babble…

Anyone have any reverse babble suggestions for her comments?

How about, "If you didn't want me to file my taxes separately, you shouldn't be screwing OM."

Well, maybe that isn't plan A. Does she even know that you know?

LOL...Oh I've thought of several things like that to say but have held my tongue.

No she doesn't know that I know yet... Jennifer suggested I wait to expose.

For the CPA's here...

If I file a married filing separate tax return and itemize my deductions does my WW have to file an itemized return? Or can she take the standard deduction?

If she talked to an accountant she must have discovered she is screwed if you file separate....

From the IRS website:

My spouse and I are filing separate returns. How can we split our itemized deductions?

If you and your spouse file separate returns and one of you itemizes deductions, the other spouse will have a standard deduction of zero. Therefore, the other spouse should also itemize deductions.

Is it required though?

Do both spouses have to itemize? Or can one take the standard deduction?

BTW...I already filed... seperate... I claimed all the interest on the house... That's the advice I got so that's what I did...

She can either itemize or take ZERO as her standard deduction. No other choices.

Spouses filing separately can either BOTH take the standard deduction or BOTH itemize. You can NOT do one of each....otherwise EVERYONE would file that way!

OK... Well I guess she's screwed... And she's going to be super pissed...

She wants me to give her all the cancelled checks so she can itemize...I'm sure there's nothing there for her to itemize. We didn't write checks for hardly anything. Just when we had to... like when they wouldn't take visa...

She went into the "see you're screwing me again" routine when she called... and I'm about sick of hearing it. I think I’m ready to expose the affair… (Maybe I need to have a counseling session with Jennifer ASAP) I’m tired of her trying to make me feel guilty and trying to justify her affair to herself… she made the decision to have an affair and then moved out… and now it’s time for her to do a reality check…

Anybody have any advice??? I could really use some here….

Definitely talk to Jennifer.

I won't contradict what the pro told you, but I would have exposed before now.

What was Jennifers reason for waiting?

I'm not sure... maybe to give me a chance to stop any LB's. Try and meet her EN's (Kinda hard to do when she's moved out but I'm trying) She wanted me to write letters to her every other day before we exposed. As a matter of fact I read something in SAA about trying to meet EN's when separated... It specifially said something about writing letters...

You should say something along the lines of, "I'm not trying to screw you financially, but I sure as he11 am not going to bankroll your affair."

I don't see exposure as such a big deal.
She has openly had him around SD....obviously SD's dad knows. I'm kinda shocked that you haven't said anything by now.

I think sometimes if you delay exposure and do a good job of meeting needs there can be a "wow, you knew and you still did all these great things..." kinda reaction.

But I don't think you've had much Plan A success. And at this point how could you NOT know about OM? You've been spending time with SD, why wouldn't she have said something...yanno?

I've read here that the MB program doesn't work with someone with an addiction (like alcohol).

This all seems like a lifelong pattern with WW. Just my opinion, but it seems like she has a long way to go before she would be marriage-material....

Hmmm I think it’s hard to tell when there’s success in plan A… you know… like the river and stone analogy. SD got her a$$ chewed by her mom when her dad found out… WW accused her of telling her dad what was going on… WW called her a traitor… So it doesn’t surprise me that WW is comfortable thinking that SD would not tell me anything… She didn’t anyway… I told her that I knew… she was amazed that I knew… she said her mom thinks she’s got me buffaloed. WW thinks that I have no clue what’s going on…


I’ve read the same thing.

And yes…. She’s a serial cheater…

You’re not the only one to say that… Others have said I should let her go… until she’s capable (if ever) of being a good wife and mother. And I may have to do that… I’m just not there yet.

How about exposure to AA and her sponsor. Meet with them and let her know that she has traded one addition to dull the pain with another. Maybe they will help her (or at least kick OM out if he is an AA member).

How do I expose to AA???

I don't know who her sponsor is or if she even has one right now.

Would AA really kick OM out if he's a member?

I'm pretty sure they frown upon that kind of thing.

I know they frown upon that... but that doesn't mean they'll kick someone out...

I’m currious why you said that. Can you explain further?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

How do you mesure success in plan A? The ending of the affair would be one way. But SAA says only about 15% of people end the affiar in plan A.

There is a carrot and the stick of plan A. With her moving out, there isn't much of a chance for you to meet her ENs, and she hasn't felt many of the consequences of her affair either. You need to subject her to more of the consequences, especially the financial ones. I would speak with an attorney and see what you can do to financially cut yourself off from her. I would at least consider legal separation, so isn't entitled to half your stuff from that point on. If OM is spending the night, that might preclude some spousal support that you might otherwise be on the hook for.

I've already talked to an attorney...

There is no legal separation in this state...

I'm not filing for divorce... I'd explain but... it's complicated ... In GW's words... It's strategery...LOL

Ok... I have another session scheduled with Jennifer tomorrow...

Three weeks... No Cigarettes...

Woo hooo...!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I have a counseling session with Jennifer tonight…

I want to make the most of my time. So I want to solicit advice from everyone as to what questions I should ask…

Some of the questions I want to ask about are…

Exposure… When… who… etc…
Plan A time line… how long should I stay in plan A before I go to plan B?

Any other questions that I should ask?

Anybody???

Hi Amazin
I sent Jennifer a short timeline so that we didn't have to waste time in the first session going through the background. It had to be very brief as I didn't want to put down anything except facts, if it is just you then you should be able to add more colour. Send it to Laurie or Ellie and they will forward.

She's in the Philippines so the time difference may mean that she will not log in before the session but try anyway.

Oh and don't send as an attachment. We did one of these recently and she binned it!

Hope it goes well

Amazin....

Congrats on the cigarettes....How are you doing that btw???? I ask because it is something WS hates (always has...always will...major problem in our M.....major LB for him) and of course I do. I know I need to quit, I kinda, sorta want to. Ok, I do, but with all this "added" stress, I haven't been able to go longer than 3 days so far, and that with useing the patch. Uhgggg...well, now the cat is out of the bag, I should probably come clean on my own thread about this.....because if I don't lick this, my M will probably not R anyway..



Anyway, sorry about the t/j there...Good luck tonight with the appt. I wish I had advice for YOU, but I don't...except discuss the exposure thing with her.
Let us know how it goes.....

not2fun

I went to the doctor and got Chantix. I quit once before using the patch for about 30-45 days... (it didn't work so well)

I was surprized how well the chantix works... It got rid of the cravings... You have to be commited and you need to be aware of what your triggers are ... For me it's things like coffee, beer, driving in the car, stress, etc... Chewing gum and loli pops help alot too...

One of the things that the doc told me that I didn't know was that smoking contributes to depression...

One of the benifits of quitting is that now the dentist will give me the smile whitening stuff. They wouldn't do that while I was smoking...

That's what my MC wants me to do. I asked my DR. about it and she didn't think it would be a good idea at this time with all that is going on. She wanted it to be sucessful, and with the stress I am under, she was afraid of faiure. Imagine a DR. not wanting to help with quitting smoking...lol. Actually, she's a great Dr., its just that she knows me well and has seen in a full-blown panic attack and through all of the stuff I went through with my daughter. Of course, next time I see her (March) I could tell if I don't quit, i may end up D and have more panic attacks....lol..

Tell me about the side effects?? how much were you smoking before you did this??? I am about 3/4 pk a day, only outside, and not in my car. I am not supposed to at work (no smoking school district..), but there are those of us who go out to our cars to do it (I go with a janitor friend....)...go figure.....

I had concerns about trying to quit now too. For the some of the same reasons you expressed. Mainly stress... But I'm doing it... I just need to make sure stress doesn't cause a relaps.

I was smoking about 1 1/2 to 2 packs a day. I can't remember all the possible side affects... but the only one I've experianced is strange dreams... And those aren't that often or that bad. I took another medication before to help stop smoking. (Wellbutrin I think) And it gave me really weird dreams... LOL...

So far Chantix has made a huge diffence... I really didn't feel any different... but it has definately taken away the cravings...

OK… I just got done with Jennifer. I feel much better … And I understand my strategy much better now. I’m going to post it here while it’s still fresh in my mind and so I don’t forget what we talked about.

I asked about revealing the affair …

She said that was up to me… however, she has seen many instances where the BS has not revealed until going into plan B and it has had a “WOW” affect on WS… Very much like what LEXXY said.


I asked about a time line for Plan A and how long I should stay in plan A… She said it depends on the individual. Here are the guidelines I should use when deciding if I should go into plan B.

1. You can’t control yourself from Love Busting anymore.
2. You can’t function normally anymore… (You go to work but can’t get anything done, don’t clean house, not taking care of yourself etc...)
3. If what WS is doing is causing BS unbearable pain… (I.E. If WS & BS are “‘dating” on weekends and BS can’t take it anymore)

We talked a lot about the letters… and why… Jennifer said she likes this approach because it forces me to develop a skill and it forces me to write how I’m feeling. She said the overall goal is to get both of us on this path. (The marriage builder’s lifestyle) That writing the letters is kind of like selling this lifestyle to her.

Just looking at my notes here’s some of the things we talked about in regards to letters…

-Letters are supposed to reveal my feelings and how I want things to be.
-Offer her a type of life and a lifestyle change. Sell the change.
-Express that I want to be together but not the way it was before.
-I’m supposed to give her the information (The basic MB concepts) Reveal the things I’ve learned.
-Use some of these phrases…“Please take my hand”, “This is not as it should be”, “we both have made mistakes”.

I talked to Jennifer about the letters quite a bit. I am going to send all the letters to Jennifer first. She’s going to proof them and help me learn how to write them without any love busters. I’m supposed to read through the letters 5 times before I send them. They should be 2-3 paragraphs long maximum. And they should focus on insights (The things I’ve learned, MB principles) and selling a lifestyle.

She also gave me some subject matter ideas for 3 letters. Exceptional care/Valentine’s day, Lifestyle/MB concepts, and our tax return. (She suggested that I save the tax issue for later since it’s a fresh wound)

Comments? Insights? Feedback?

All are welcome. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

wunnerful <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Pep... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Amazin,

I haven't posted to you before, but I try to follow your thread.

I've also worked with Jennifer and done the letters. I'm supposed to do another one, but just havne't found the guts to do it yet. Feels like I'm begging at this point I guess. He hasn't responded to two previous letters.

Anyway, good luck. You are in good hands with her.

Amazin,

Thanks for the chantix talk. You may end being my "sponsor" when I get there...(which needs to be real soon...WS asked about it tonight....)..


Amazin and Chai,

Sound like Jennifer is steering you in the right direction. I actually took that advice (not sure if I saw it here on your thread or another...) of writing a letter for Vday. Guess what it worked (for a short time anyway...). I stuck to the outline, didn't talk about A, and I know he loved it. In fact, I am going to write him another tonight (but a shorter one that the one on Vday...that one was 3 pages, on smaller paper though...).

Do what you are told people....there's my 2x4.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

not2fun

No problem... If I can quit you can too... I just figured I didn't like the person I was and I wanted to change... (You know... that plan A change... changing you...) Not to mention that smoking is not real conducive to the military lifestyle.

I think if you want to quit to please your husband then it wont stick... you have to want to do it for you...

What do they say??? Change isn't real (and wont last) unless you want it... If you're doing it because someone else wants you to change then it's not real....

Sponsor? what is this ... Smokers Anonymous?

LOL...

Go Navy !

*Link*

Well I went to see my counselor tonight. While I was in the waiting area WW called. Our conversation went something like this…

WW “did you call me?”

Me: No.

WW: Well you’re number is on my phone.

Me: I didn’t call. You’re on my speed dial maybe I hit the number by accident.

WW: I don’t know I just know your number is on my phone.

Me: OK... Well how was your day?

WW: Fine.

Me: How’s step daughter… Is she still depressed about the dog?

WW: She’s fine.

Me: OK that’s good.

WW: I don’t want to see you anymore.

Me: Ok.. and why’s that.

WW: Because you’ve f*cked me over for the last time. I’m only getting 100 dollars back on my tax return. It amazes me that you don’t care about who it is you [censored] over. As soon as you saw the dollar signs you decided that was more important than anything else. Well I hope you’re happy with your tax return.

Me: I haven’t gotten my return back yet.

WW: Well when you get it you need to go get an attorney and file for divorce. I’m done.

Me: Sorry… I didn’t want it to be this way… And I’m not going to file for divorce.

WW: Go ahead… say it... “You’re the one who wanted to move out … I didn’t kick you out”…

Me: You’re right… You did.

WW: Well I want a divorce… I’m done

Me: I’ll call you later… I’m at the counselor’s office and she’s ready for me.

WW: Don’t bother… CLICK…

Needless to say she’s pissed about the taxes…
On one hand I feel bad that she’s getting screwed… but on the other hand I don’t because I’m still making the payment on the car she’s driving (the loan is in my name only) And when it’s paid off in May I would have made 1500 in payments on it since she left.

Last night Jennifer and I talked about this and she said she would have counseled me to file jointly. But since it’s already done there’s nothing you can do about it now so don’t sweat it.

How’d I do?
Comments???

UHMMM....depends, how was your tone on the "you're right...you did part??"" ..Was there any DJ in it. If you just stated your truth, without being hurtful, then I say you earn the A tonight....

You knew she would be PO'd. My advice would be to let her cool off for a couple of days, ie...don't contact her at ALL..no matter what the reason. You know and I know and we all know that the D talk is babble. And Jennifer was right, its already done, move on....

of course, some wiser VETS on here may have different advice....

not2fun

No... I think I was very calm... I didn't say it in an ugly tone... It seemed like the calmer I acted the more angry and ugly she got...

That was a very brief description of the conversation... It seemed longer than that... but the majority of the conversation is there.

I think this is where you should go to plan B. Tell her that you can't believe that she got so pissed over a tax return that she didn't deserve (because she doesn't pay the mortgage) when you aren't that pissed that she has been screwing another man the past few months, and send her the plan B letter as well as exposing to her AA group.

Jim,

I disagree. That entire scenario would come across as bitter and vengful. It would make a big withdrawl from her love bank.

This would be the absolute wrong time to go into plan B. The idea behind plan A is try and meet the WW spouses needs and show how the marriage "could" be. Just before you go into plan B you want to leave the WS feeling that there may be hope for the marriage... And not leave them with a bad taste in their mouth so to speak... If the last thing she remembers about me before I go dark is how I screwed her out of her tax return then that will continue to be a justification in her mind that she's doing the right thing.

Bumping for me!

Any other comments?

Another bump for comments and advice...

I'm nowhere near a VET, but it would seem that a couple of weeks of SOLID Plan A would be beneficial prior to going into a VERY DARK Plan B. What is Jennifer telling you to do?

Amazin,

You are doing a great job. Keep up with your Plan A. Yes, Plan B would not be good right now with the fire still raining down from the tax situation. Keep up with your changes of you, keep up with your IC appointments, keep up with your sessions with Jennifer and follow your course. Maybe on your next session with Jennifer you could readdress your Plan with her and your timeline, write it down so you use it for reference.

And remember, do not contact her for a couple of days unless for emergencies concerning the kids. She needs to cool off and you bugging her will only asperate her. She'll come around, she a wayward.....

If it helps, during these times of trials when she babbles about "being done", "I'm getting the D", "I never want to talk to you again", just remember that she needs to show you some action. This is what I do with my WS. Has he filed yet? No. Does he come around? yes.

Keep your chin up and chest out as Mimi would say....

not2fun

Notice how SHE initiated the call? By PRETENDING that she THOUGHT you called her. She didn't lay into you right away (getting her nerve up?) Her responses: "I don’t want to see you anymore", "I want a divorce...", "...you need to go get an attorney and file for divorce. I’m done", "blah, dee-blah, dee-blah." Just a WS tantrum.

I wonder why Jennifer said she would have recommended filing jointly, did she say? I personally think you did the right thing. But whadda I know?

I agree. Let her cool down for a couple of days. Betcha she calls first, even if it's the old line, "Did you call me?" Angry didn't work with you. She'll probably try sweetness next.

Well I got the impression because it would be such a big love buster. And when you're in plan A you're trying to avoid LB'ing.

I came to that same conclusion.....oh well, its in the past, can't be undone, move on....

what plan a stuff are you working on??? That's what we want to know.....

I think the real question is... What Plan A stuff can I do?

She’s not in the house. She is as mad as a wet hen. And she doesn't want anything to do with me right now.

Exactly what plan A things can I do? Other than writing my letters and sending them to Jennifer is there anything else I can do?

what are her important EN's???

Her not being in the house is no excuse, my WS isn't either. If I can do it, you can do it....simple as that....
now if you saw my post the other night to Serenity, I will gladly give you suggestions....

Have you called her today??? Be honest....lol

No I havn't called her... I thought I should let her cool off for a few days... maybe wait until she calls me first. Athough that may be a while. Unless she needs something from me... Then she'll call...Or at least she'll use that as an excuese.

Her intimate needs.... Hmmm well I did the questionaire for her so it's only an educated guess on my part.

Affection, conversation, Admiration, Sexual fulfullment and recreational companionship... in that order...

I would also say honesty & openess, and family commitment are high on the list and could be in the top 5...

Not sure how to fulfill any of those when she basically doesnt' want to have anything to do with me now.

I'm open to suggestions.

Now that I'm looking at her EN's I find it funny that affection is at the top of the list... I was the one who would try an be affectionate to her and she would pull away...

For example... I would always kiss her... And alot of the time if she was irritated... (it didn't have to be with me) she would pull away and not want me to kiss her.

yes...do not call her...I was just making sure you didn't cave in...wonder whose will call first....of course, mine has to come get the kids tomorrow, so I guess that won't count....

I'll come back with my suggestions later....still spending time with DD...she's in the bathroom...lol

Amazin...I've not posted to you before but just got caught up...thank you for your service!



This sounds like something I'd do...and I can tell you it's a useless exercise...not very effective, and can lead you down a dead end road.

The only person who can tell you what their needs are is your WW.

Speculating can only contribute to you trying to "figure her out"...when in reality, it's you that needs to figure yourself out.

OBTW, I say this with the utmost respect, b/c I've been there and understand it so very well... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Her alcohol use and prior marriage is a sure sign there's so very much else going on than your marriage.

If I'd been able to calmly assess my wife before I'd married her with the wisdom of my current life experience, I'm absolutely sure I would have made a very different decision.

Your comments about older men "warning you off" ring true...my WW was/is also so very much a flirt. This is one of many signs of a huge lack of self-esteem...

The question is...how are YOU doing, my friend?

Continue to take good care of your wonderful children.

A saying I heard some time ago that continues to ring true and helps to guide my actions is (and I paraphrase)

"in the end, what will be remembered is what kind of a man you were and what kind of children you raised..."

L2F

I'm not sure I know what you're talking about... Refresh my memory.



How do I figure out what her intimate needs are? I'm not going to say... "Here honey fill this questionaire out for me..."

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying about figuring myself out... what do I need to know about me? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

LET IT SNOW...

2 Hour delay... hopfully it will be a snow day and I wont have to go to work all day... I could use another 3 day weekend.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Good morning Amazin...

I promised you some help, and here I go. Before I get started though, I wanted to comment on this. In the first part of the quote, this is YOUR perception. It may not have been how SHE saw this.

In the second paragraph, I can TOTALLY relate to your WS in this. Let me give you some insight into the FEMALE mind.

First of all, affection is not merely limited to hand holding, hugging, kisses, and the such. Reread that section in HNHN (I can't remember if you read that or not...if not, then DO...). This situation happened MANY times between WS and I. NOw, if you were not doing anything to meet her other EN's and your affection was limited to these types of displays, then when you would go to do these, she would pull away because in HER mind you were only looking for one thing...SF. For a woman, SF is the topper to all of her other EN's being met. If you are taking the time to meet her need for Conversation, Admiration, and affection, then she would BE more than receptive to SF.

You see, when a man "limits" his affection to merely physical displays (the hand holding, hugs, kisses...anything not SF), then a woman BELIEVES that his only motive is SF...ESPECIALLY when he has been Love Bustin for the last couple of days....

For example,,,,,If my WS comes home, doesn't have any real conversation with me (whick is my TOP EN...are we surprised??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />), doesn't compliment me on the house or what is cooking on the stove, starts making a mess himself...then when he gets around to giving me a hug and some kisses then I am NO WHERE near ready for that kind of affection, because in my mind I am thinking "he just wants to get laid".

Now, I understand what Dr. Harley say about a man's need for SF and how this is how a man shows his love, but I did NOT understand this before I read the book. I can look back and see how I was wrong in my thinking and I should have responded different, but at the time, that is what I thought, and I am willing to bet the farm, your WS was the same...


Does that make any sense....

I am going to post again to give you some idea's about meeting her EN's.

L2F is right about spectulating what her EN's are, BUT you have to start somewhere...even Dr. Harley says that. And if you are changing to meet her EN's you are taking care of yourself, because even if she doesn't come back, you are making GOOD changes that would make you more desirable to someone else....

not2fun

Yes it does...


I do understand what you’re saying N2F… and I’m not disagreeing. But I feel that I was always more affectionate than my wife… At least it seemed that way after we were married… Not so much when we were dating. She was very affectionate then.


Why is it that women think we always have an ulterior motive? (At least my wife always does.) Just curious… but isn’t it possible that we don’t and we’re just trying to be nice? I’m not saying that we never have an ulterior motives… Like when we’re being nice just to get out of the dog house… but there are times we just want to be nice… Maybe it’s just a difference of perception between men and women. I dunno…

I do understand that wives need to feel special a lot better now... My WW use to say she didn’t get upset about the big things it's the little things that piss her off" (or the lack of little things) Doing little things = affection…

I read Mortormans thread about the roles of husbands and wives. One of the things that in the thread was that husbands are to be their wives sanctifier. (The word sanctification is one of those big words that basically means “to set apart as unique or special.”) When I read that it was kind of like a light went off. I understand now… A wife needs to feel special and it’s the husbands job to make sure she feels special. I GET IT… It’s the little things we do that make our wives feel special. Making the coffee in the morning and bringing her a cup. Cleaning the car off and warming it up for her in the morning when it snows, sending her flowers just because. Emailing or texting her just to say we’re thinking of them…etc..etc etc.. If we send flowers because it’s Valentine’s Day and we feel obligated… then it doesn’t mean as much to the wife…

I guess I could be working on finishing my daughters room... I still have to paint the trim...

Is that a plan A thing?

You feel.....that just it Amazin...YOU FEEL...Might not have been her point of view though....Another thing, Affection is NOT LIMITED to the physical stuff (hand holding, kisses, and hugs...), were you seeing her affection as the physical stuff??? From the example you wrote of and other stuff you said, that was the impression I got.

As far as the ulterior motive, do you really have to ask??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />....Actually, my WS and I have talked about this before. The BIGGEST reason we think that is society. Think about it, we were all raised to believe that is all boys wanted. Girls are warned about when the enter the dating scene, all we hear about is the teenage boys "raging" hormones. Articles everywhere discussing how often a man thinks about sex, when they think about, how they dream about it. What would you expect us to think?? Are we supposed to think that just because you married us that suddenly you don't want it any more??? That because you married us, that you think about it any less???? And what is in a man's top 5 EN's? SF...It has been beated into our heads that all men want is sex.

Now, like I said, Dr. Harleys explains SF need for men differently than I have ever heard it...in fact, I was kind of skeptical of this explanation at first, but when I REALLY thought about it, it makes sense....

You stated that there are times when men do this stuff just to be nice, not just for SF....exactly when are WOMEN supposed to know when those times are????

Ok...done with that. I totally get what you are saying Amazin, but I thought about what you had said all night last night and wanted to give you a female perspective on all of this. Or at least mine.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Yes, I have read Mortorman's stuff...it is good. Any FYI....we love flowers on Valentines day, but if that is the ONLY day we get them, yep, doesn't mean as much (or at least to me.....) unless its been YEARS since we had gotten any, then we are speechless....whew...us women are hard to figure out..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Ok, the room being painted.....is that a Plan A thing???

That depends....have you guys talked about doing it in the past??? Did she ever ask for it??? Is this something that has been so neglected that you HAVE to do it?? Did your daughter ask for it???

I say no matter what the answer to those questions are, that yes it is a Plan A thing. You are taking care of YOUR GUYS house, even in her absence.

not2fun

I understand that affection is not limited to physical stuff... Like I said it's the little things... coffee, cleaning off the snow...

Was I just seeing her affection as the physical stuff? ... Hmmm I'm gonna have to think about that... Yes and no… (Confused??? LOL) When we were dating and early in marriage she would do things like decorate the bedroom with hearts that all had little notes on them… Not so much after we had been married a year or two… And eventually stopped completely … So in one sense No I didn’t see just the physical stuff….But on the other hand maybe I wasn’t perceiving the other things she did as affection… Like making sure the kids had good birthdays… decorating … shopping for Christmas presents… cards for me… flowers … etc… So Yes I think there were times when I didn’t perceive her actions as affections because they weren’t physical…



I think that is a dilemma that may never be solved…LOL... So I don’t know how to answer that question. I read somewhere that men give women attention so they can get sex, and women give sex so they can get more attention… In very general terms that may be true of single people (who are looking for a mate) … I don’t necessarily think that’s true in a marriage though.



What I was trying to express is that when it’s done for no special reason other than because your husband wants to show you some affection then it means more than when it’s done because he feels obligated. And I would think it would mean more to the wife… that’s all.


Hmmm…. Yes, yes, ahhh yes maybe??? And yes…. LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

A short history…The couple we bought our house from originally bought it in 1970 for $24,000. When we moved in the inside still looked like it was 1970… wallpaper on almost every wall and shag carpet covering hard wood floors. But that didn’t bother me because I knew we could paint and remove the carpet…I just wanted to paint everything white because I always expected we would sell this house eventually and white is an easy sell … WW wants to paint it in color… I painted the dining room 3 times... White… then light green… she wanted the trim dark green so we tried that and didn’t like it… take the paint off… paint again… I kind of teased her that I had to paint that damn room three times and if she would have just let me stop when it was white… I could have painted the rest of the house in the same amount of time I took on that dining room … LOL

Daughter’s room is like a sky blue with white trim. I thought it needed a touch of dark blue somewhere so I’m going to get some dark blue window treatments of some sort…

Golly garsh … while I’m at it I think I’ll sing some Judy Garland show tunes and get some track lighting… LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Yes… I know it sounds gay….and… NO I’m not… My wife always said I was good at picking colors and decorating… she’s not… We’re kinda backwards that way…

I let my daughter pick the color… somewhat… If I let her pick the color she really wanted it would have been lime green with purple and orange… <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ok...if you let her pick the color she wanted somewhat...where is blue in that scheme???? My DD14 wanted an orange, pink and lime green room....3 walls are a lighter shade of orange and the other wall is a deeper orange. All the accessories in her room have orange, hot pink and lime green in them....She only a kid once you should have let her have some fun with it...it would have been some good practice at negotiating.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'm not sure where your wife thinks you are good with colors and decorating if you want to paint everything WHITE...aka boring....

ok...off my soap box...can you tell I'm a color gal... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Now you may be better at picking out colors and decorating, but did you know that a woman's home is her pride???? Not saying you shouldn't get a say so, but it like a man with his career. JTLYK...

As far as men showing affection to get sex and women using sex to get affection,,,,that was in HNHN....

Have you read any of the books?????

Now, we are ending the discussion on the difference's between men and women. I was giving you a woman's perception on the first quote of yours (I was the more affectionate one...). I didn't want to slam you or anything, I just wanted to let you know how your WS might have seen things....it really doesn't matter, because it is in the past and we are concerned with the here and now and the future...(and yes it looks like you learned a little about the small things...her taking care of the kids, decorating...all that would be under her meeting the DS EN...)

Now....for the work....

Affection- you stated flowers...does she like getting them? when was the last time you gave her some??? What about a card??? Your letters are a good one?? when was the last time you wrote one??? How about getting her some of her favorite candy ??

not2fun

I'll be back later with some more...I have to go play some poker....and I need to get on my thread to talk about the events of the day.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Ok before I get to your post N2F I got to say something…


LOL… Too bad we didn’t bet. Mine called… At least two or three times and step daughter called two or three times. It’s funny because I took the girls to see the movie Charlie Bartlett and forgot my phone. I’ll bet WW was freaking out thinking I wasn’t taking her calls…LOL… When we got home there was a message on my home phone from SD saying call and she don’t care how late… I’m thinking there’s a problem…so my daughter called and then she came to my room and handed me the phone… SD said that she was looking for some red snow pants and wanted to know if they were in my closet. That WW, SD and a female friend were going snow tubing tomorrow. Makes me wonder… all of that over a pair of red pants? Just two days ago she didn’t want to see me anymore, wanted me to get an attorney and file for divorce…. Fog bla bla bla fog bla… Now she’s going out of her way to get a pair of red snow pants that she literally paid $2.00 for at the goodwill…

Just following the script I guess….LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

So should I see her when she comes over tomorrow morning or not? Should I just let the SD come in and get the pants and leave or should I go out to the car? I know WW won’t get out of the car or come in.

Advice Please.

Amazin,

uh, my WS called me at 11:30 am. I haven't posted about it yet though...but I am next.

I bet she was freaking out. Now when she comes over tomorrow, I would have a big ol' thermos of hot chocolate or coffee to send with her and the kids.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />. I would make sure I look good, but not too over the top. If she doesn't come in, I would just take the thermos out to her and give it to her personally. Just comment of what they are going to do, wish them well, tell her to call if they need anything and leave it at that. You could maybe have some pasteries to go with the hot chocolate. But yes, since she has broken the "ice" so to speak, go ahead a talk to her now....just stay away from R,M and A talk....oh, and taxes... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Hope you get this before she gets there....Let me know how it goes....

not2fun

Damn... or... should I say “good for you..???” I’m so confused…LOL

I thought my WW would be the first to call... It’s the script… they must be in the same science fiction Wh*re movie. (Or is that horror, or maybe ho)…LOL

I'm taking your advice.

I went to the store early this morning. I bought some instant coco, some quality coffee and some doughnuts. I also bought a couple of small thermoses and some cheap plastic yellow mugs that have smiley faces on them <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (She always liked smiley faces) I also found a left over Christmas gift bag in my trunk, (It says’ “Let it Snow”) I’ll put all the stuff in the bag and I’ll take it out to her when she gets here. (Not sure how that's gonna work if it's just her female friend and SD... not the WW??)

I don’t plan on saying much just that SD said they were going tubing and I thought I would send something to warm you up when you’re cold…
Maybe I should make a homemade card and put it in the bag too? Maybe with a short poem…

nope on the card and poem....don't want to go overboard.....remember, she just got done being mad at you...

Good job on taking the advice....and even if she is not there and only the friend and SD, she'll still get the message. It may frusterate her, but it'll make her think of you....

Now this is where NO EXPECTATIONS comes into play...you are doing this small thing for her, you are not EXPECTING anything to come of it....remember the rules...

1. meet WS EN's
2. advoid LB's
3. NO EXPECTATIONS.OR EXPECT TO BE HURT.....

keep those in mind...and remember Plan A is about being the best YOU you can be..


not2fun

Thanks N2F,
You're great!

Like I thought, SD and female friend (who I can't stand) stopped by. Not WW. SD said she that they dropped her off at the thrift store before they came over and that she was looking for snow gloves. Hmmm... stubborn???... pridefull??? still pissed??? or just making a point?

I didn't send a card or a poem... Just the bag with the coco, coffee, doughnuts, and the pants.

NO EXPECTATIONS.......

you can't understand a WS mind....TOO FOGGY....

NO EXPECTATIONS

not2fun

I'm trying...

It's hard to do sometimes...

GO CLEAN YOUR BASEMENT... and get rid of all that crap that's taking up space...

I'll go paint....LOL

We'll both feel better if we get something accomplished today.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well I got 95% of the painting done. The only thing left is the real tedious stuff, like the wood in the windowpane, and a little bit of trim where it meets the hardwood floor.

My youngest daughter wants me to go to church with her this morning… I really haven’t been feeling up to it. I know I need to go; I’m just not motivated to right now…

I want to finish the trim and take down the tape. Then maybe I’ll go look for a new bed for my oldest daughter. WW took her bed when she moved out… She was going to leave it for her to use until I could get another. Then for some reason she changed her mind about 4 days after she moved out. It kind of pissed me off… Makes me wonder if she didn’t take it over to OM’s apartment… That would really make me mad…

Ok... I'm done painting... (Finally) I don't mind painting the walls... but the trim sucks... LOL

I need to get off of here and go do something... I think I'll take my oldest daughter to look at furniture and have some father daughter time.

Amazin,


How's it going?? It's funny because my WS doesn't mind painting the wall either, but hates to trim...me?? I like trimming but HATE rolling...go figure....

Enjoy that father/daughter time.....

later on we will get back to Plan A talk....(you know, come up with a game plan....)

not2fun

Enjoy the time with your D Amazin. It will be gone before you know it. And you will have lots of memories to share.

Thanks N2F, I'm looking forward to talking to you...

Thanks Queenie...

It's strange... (Or maybe not) Since WW moved out my daughters and I are getting closer... all the drama is gone... No more fighting, walking on egg shells and all that crap... The house seems a lot more peaceful.

My youngest daughter and I talked a little this morning after SD called... One of the things she said that I found prophetic is that she didn’t feel that we (WW, SD, me and mine) were ever a family… She felt like it was always two families living in the same house. If WW ever did come back... that would have to change… In order to be a happy healthy family we would have to be ONE family and not two… WW would have to be a good mom to all the kids and not just one… (All of that out of a 14 year olds mouth… Amazing… she gets it…) I totally related to this on several levels… (It's not all my WW's fault... I helped that situation along sometimes too) She started getting emotional… I asked her why she was crying and she said because she just didn’t think it was fair that we don’t have that ONE family.

My youngest is more receptive to WW coming back to the home than my older daughter... I've asked my oldest daughter how she feels about WW and if she would ever want her to come back… she’s said she doesn’t want her to ever come back. I asked her why and her exact words were “because WW has a vindictive character and I don’t think she’ll ever change.” I asked her another time … If WW and I ever got back together would you be hurt? She said yes she would be very hurt… One of the things that I’m afraid of is that if WW and I do end up getting back together it will really hurt my oldest daughter… I don’t want to hurt her… While we were out today I asked her if she felt like we (WW, SD, me, and mine) were ever a family… she said the same thing my youngest said… No… And that it always felt like we were two families living in the same house.

I do love my wife… but even if she wanted to come back… I don’t know if I could do it…I’m definitely not going back to the “Two families living in the same house “situation… I want us to be one big happy family… WW would have to really understand that… and that she needs to be a good mom to all our kids and not just her daughter… She seems like she was that same way with her own kids… not just mine and hers… She treated her son differently than her daughter. Her son had/has issues… (ADHD/Aggressive Defiant Disorder)… but she still seemed to treat her daughter better than her son…

This is why I was really thinking about Queenie’s message this morning… and why it touched me.

Listen to God and the changes He wants you to make in your life

I’m going to make changes… for the better… for me and my kids…I want WW and SD to be a part of my life but if she isn’t able or capable of making the changes that she needs to make in order to bring peace into to her troubled life … then I may have to let her go…

I want everything to be “RIGHT” but I’m not sure what that is… God is going to have to show me what’s right… I’m just trying to learn how to listen…

Amazin,

I totally hear you...That's where I am at right now. If WS were to come home at this point, things will DEFINATELY different, not the way it was before. Too much has happened and too much hurt. I was not all that thrilled with our M either the only difference is I didn't have an A.

And yes, you got the message about Queenie's quote...I think sometimes that I have been doing what I want as far as recovering my M, but is that what God wants??? hmmmmmm....maybe, He wants me to take this oppertunity to return to Him and His will.....I don't know, but I do know that my ears have opened up a little more today....

Anyway....Plan A.....

When was the last time you sent her flowers??

when was the last time you left her a note on her car, or in her car???

And where are you on the letters assignment you have????

I expect answers this time BUB...got it???? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

not2fun

Ok...I got it...LOL...

Flowers... I took them to her in person on Valnetines Day.

Note... I can't remember... So it's been a while...


Letters... Hmmm... I'm having a hard time getting started on the letters and what to say... I was going to say something on your post earlier but I didn't....And with her still pissed about the taxes...it makes it even harder. It still appears to me that she doesn't want to have anything to do with me right now...

you asked me on Friday (?) if I had read any of the books... I started with SAA but got to the recovery portion and started getting side tracked... I'm not much of a reader to begin with so if it doesn't have a plot I really have to force myself to read it.

I also have HNHN for parents...but I havne't started reading it yet... I bought that one insted of HNHN's because there was a section in it on blended families.

I also have fall in love stay in love....

As the world turns … these are the days of our lives.

My ex-wife (Not WW) called me this morning. She said her husband broke her nose and that she’s leaving. I don’t know how truthful she’s being. She has a tendency to embellish the truth. When we were divorcing she told my command that I broke her finger and that she had to go to the hospital. Of course my response to the female JAG officer was “I’m sure you can get a copy of the hospital records and the police report to prove that I did this right? When you do I would like to have a copy.” Of course she couldn’t produce one because it never happened.

Anyway, I told her if he’s beating her she needs to get out. For that matter she needs to throw him out.

Now here’s my dilemma: Ex wants my son (actually my step son) to come live with me. She just up-rooted him from high school in December, moved him, 500 miles away and now she wants to move him again. He’s a senior in H.S. and only has 3 more months left until graduation. The EX wanted me to take him in December and I was considering it, but changed my mind when all the crap with WW started.

In December when I was considering this my WW was really against it. She shut me down as soon as I brought it up and it made me feel like he wasn’t welcome. It really made me angry and resentful. I was on the verge of letting him move in with us without her agreeing to it. (I know, POJA but I didn’t know that then) It was a MAJOR love buster. If you ask WW, that’s probably the straw that broke the camel’s back in her opinion.

I really feel that my step son needs me to be there for him right now. But on the other hand I know if he moves in, then WW will use that to justify her actions, her affair and her moving out.

I need some advice here. I think I know what the right thing to do is. But I need some feedback to help me figure it out.

Should I talk to my WW about it before I decide? Should I try to explain anything to her? Or should I just do what I think is right and not worry about her reaction?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

YES !

practice your POJA skills !

Thanks Pep... I kinda thought the same thing... An opportunity to practice POJA.

But what if she say's she don't give a Sh*t what I do. It's my problem not hers?

Or she wont talk to me about it at all...

"I want to know how you would feel about this (situation)."

If she says anything rude

just say

"OK. I just wanted your input. Thanks anyway."

O.K.

Thanks again Pep. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Ok... I sent her an email and she responded...

Her exact words,

I don't have to worry about any of that. This is your issue w/ her..

I walked away from it ALL when you cut my throat for the last time over the taxes.

My exact response:

OK. I just wanted your input. Thanks anyway.

She's maintianing that she's done with our marriage... not going to try at all... same thing she said to me on the phone last Wednesday... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

So now what? Should I do what I think is right and if she gets pissed... Oh well... I asked her for her input and she didn't give me any.

IMO, you just just go to plan D/FU, and move on from this loser. I don't know how you can take her telling you that you cut her throat with the taxes when she's been screwing another man for the past few months.

those alcoholics DO LOVE their little dramatic exits !

LOL

So, do you WANT a teenage boy under the same roof as your daughter?

I'd think this over for a long time if I were you.

Doesn't he have grandparents?

As far as I'm concerned he's my son and the brother of my girls. I'm the only father he's ever known. So I'm just currious why having having him under the same roof as my daughters would be an issue?

Yes he does have grand parents... in STL.

Ask your daughter for her opinion. Ask if she feels he is her brother.

If she's OK with it, why not?

I already know the anwer to that... They're brother and sisters. I had custody of him from the time he was 4 until he was 13. (And I'm not even his biological father but he considers me his Dad) At 13 I let him go live with his mom.

Looking back I think he really didn't like my current wife. And she encouraged him to go live with his mom. Of course most kids always want to go live with the non custodial parent. Then when they do they find out its not all movies and amusment parks.

I think that's what happened to him. His mom dragged him all over the place. If he comes here this will be his 6th school since 2002. He's sick of the instability.

Then go for it -

I am not convinced your WW will make a turn around anytime soon - her past history is pretty consistant with her current behaviors - and - I am also not convinced of her sobriety (but that's another story)

I know... Are there people like her that never change? I would think that it must be very tiring living like that.

Did you read my post from yesterday? The one about Quenies message...and about learning to listen to Gods plan.

Even if she wanted to come back right now I don't know if I'd let her... I'm definately not going back to the way it was before she moved out.

As far as her sobriety goes... I think she had a relaps superbowl weekend. Her car was parked at my favorite old fart bar for 2 or 3 hours...And I don't think she's capable of going in there and just getting food. I may have more sobriety time than she does... I haven't had a beer since...Jan 19th? About 10 days before I quit smoking... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

She may remain in a suspended adolescent level of development for a lot longer - which is typical of alcoholics.

I'd consider her a risk as a wife for at least 3-4 years even if you reconciled.

Wow... 3-4 years even if we reconcile...

Risk = another affair... more alcoholism?

Why does my opinion surprise you?
You think there is a more accurate timetable?

Your answer implies that they eventually change.

But I think my original question was... Are there people like her that live their entire life like that and never change?

I would think it would be very difficult not to change that lifestyle.... You would get very tired of living like that. It seems that if you didn't change you would go insane...

I always pray for all lost people - praying they choose a better way to live

I cannot give up all hope <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Amazin,

Sounds like a gloomy day all around for everyone, doesn't it?? Don't know what to tell you about SS though...not an area I know about. Of course, at the rate things are going around here, that could happen one day....

ok...I am sounding a little mundane...sorry....

Anyway, did you get your painting done???

not2fun

Yep... All done with the painting... I just need to take the tape down.

How about you ... did you get any further on your basement?


I don't know if gloomy is how I would describe it... but everyone seems to have had an interesting day...

The only reason I call him my SS is so that you all know the situation... He's my son...

My WW said that was one of the reasons she was attracted to me. Because I was raising 3 kids by myself and one of them wasn't even my biological son.

Amazin:

The information keeps accruing in favor of you allowing WW to stay right where shes at.

Which is out of your house.

There has been alot of independant Behaviors exhibited here. Both by you and WW.

But the discussions with your DD's is beginning to show you what life in your home was really like.

Not all that great. Blended families are always tough.

Everyone hopes for the "Brady Bunch" happy family, but rarely does it work out that well. Nor do non-blended families always have peaches and cream. But the additional stresses of blended families with the additional sets of Step-this and That, etc., creates other layers of stress.

The closer you get with your DD, the better off you are.

Your SS may benefit as well from being in your home. You asked WW for her thoughts. Leave it at that. And it MAY have been the camel that broke the back, but if it wasn't this, it would have been something else. Waywards will use ANY excuse to justify thier affair.

Continue to fight for your marriage, but this more realistic picture you get of your WW is beginning to give you the clear path you need to see out of this.

LG

Clarify please... What information? Do you mean based on what I've said so far that she needs to stay out of the house?


I concure... But just so it's crystal clear to me can you be specific?


I know blended families are tough. The funny thing is everyone... even step daughter sees the WW as the bigest problem in the family. My kids love the SD and want her to stay. Step daughter loves my kids and loves comming over. And recently SD and I have had a "breakthrough moment" we're closer than ever now.

Bump

LG ? anyone else?

Input ?

Since I seem to have writers block I'm going to post my letters here and let ya'll see them before I send them to Jennifer for her to critique.

After Jennifer sends them back to me I’ll post the finished product here so ya’ll can see the changes that she made.

This way we can all learn what it is exactly these letters are supposed to be like.

Here’s a copy of what I posted the night Jennifer discussed the letters with me.

We talked a lot about the letters… and why… Jennifer said she likes this approach because it forces me to develop a skill and it forces me to write how I’m feeling. She said the overall goal is to get both of us on this path. (The marriage builder’s lifestyle) That writing the letters is kind of like selling this lifestyle to her.

Just looking at my notes here’s some of the things we talked about in regards to letters…

-Letters are supposed to reveal my feelings and how I want things to be.
-Offer her a type of life and a lifestyle change. Sell the change.
-Express that I want to be together but not the way it was before.
-I’m supposed to give her the information (The basic MB concepts) Reveal the things I’ve learned.
-Use some of these phrases…“Please take my hand”, “This is not as it should be”, “we both have made mistakes”.

I talked to Jennifer about the letters quite a bit. I am going to send all the letters to Jennifer first. She’s going to proof them and help me learn how to write them without any love busters. I’m supposed to read through the letters 5 times before I send them. They should be 2-3 paragraphs long maximum. And they should focus on insights (The things I’ve learned, MB principles) and selling a lifestyle.

She also gave me some subject matter ideas for 3 letters. Exceptional care/Valentine’s day, Lifestyle/MB concepts, and our tax return. (She suggested that I save the tax issue for later since it’s a fresh wound)

Here's the first letter I'm going to send to Jennifer for review.


Mrs.Amazin,

I want to let you know that I very much want to have a new marriage with you. I believe that we can be happy, in love and together. I hope that you can believe that it is possible too. The way things are now are not as they should be. I know that we have both made mistakes and I want you back, but I don’t want us to go back to the way things were.

I’ve been reading a lot and learning new things every day. I know that one of the mistakes that I made a lot was to make independent decisions without you. This is one of the things that I’ve had an epiphany about. I do understand how destructive this behavior is to our marriage. I believe there’s a lifestyle change that we could make that would solve this and all the other problems we have. I can’t work on solving those problems by myself though. I hope and pray that you will take my hand and join me so that we can make a new life together that is full of love and happiness.

Love and peace,
Amazin.

Amazin,

Looks good. I would maybe take out the "we both have made mistakes" part. Too jugdmental if you ask me....otherwise, it's good.

Not2fun

I thinks it's true... Not judgmental...Or disrespectful

Anyone else have any comments?

WW hasn't made any attempt to get in contact with me for a while. I did send her an email this week about my son and she basically said she was "done".

Should I keep my distance and let her contact me first?

I havn't gotten a response from Jennifer yet... Makes me wonder if she's getting my letters...???

Amazin

Regarding your letter.

What I do see is that you are using the word 'we' when some of the things that are wrong are you, and your wrong thinking, that YOU need to change.

You need to own those things in that letter to your wife. And you CAN work on your issues by yourself, you don't need your wife to work on your issues.

Own them and change, you CAN do those things without her. You have to show her your changes, regardless. They will be permanent and part of you, no matter what.

Just my VHO.

Love in Christ,
Miss M

Thanks Miss M. Could you be specific? Cut and paste the line in a quote to show me exactly what you mean?

I know there are things that I can work on without WW. But there are some things that can't be fixed by me alone that we were both guilty of... Such as... independent behavior and not practicing a POJA. I think that was something both my wife and I were not doing. And that’s a lifestyle change that we would absolutely have to commit to in order for us to recover. Making independent decisions is something she has already indicated is a big LB for her. I fully own my mistakes... I made them and I'm willing to admit to them. But how can I change that without her to practice a POJA with? Understand? She's not in the house and won't talk to me right now... It's like she's plan B'd me. And that's what Jennifer said... She's plan B'd me.

I did get a response from Jennifer a couple of minutes ago... I'll post what she said in a few.

Here’s what Jennifer said about my letter.


Hi Amazin,


Your letter looks fine. You can send anytime. The only edit suggestion is to start with "Please understand that I very much..." instead of starting with "I want," and "Dear Mrs. Amazin."

Keep it up! Jennifer


I think Jennifer meant...

Start with "Dear Mrs. Amazin" instead of "Mrs. Amazin." And change the opening line to "Please understand that I very much want to have a new marriage with you."

I sent her a response just to get clarification.

well...did ya send it???? Just poppin' in to see how things are going.....Ummmmm....I think it is time for some "just because" flowers.....nothing too fancy, but sentimental....hmmmm...

not2fun

I havnt' sent the letter yet... I wanted some clarification from Jennifer first...

Flowers hmmm.... I don't know... she hasn't made any attempt to contact me. I don't know what to think about that.

Although... Her habbits seemed to have changed... I'm pretty sure she didn't see the OM last weekend... she spend it with her daughter and her female friend... And I havent' caught her at his apartment in a while...I'm not sure if she's still going to AA either...Makes me wonder if there's trouble in paradise.

Other than the 2 or 3 calls I missed last Friday, (and those could have been from my SD) my WW hasn’t made any attempts to contact me since she said she was “DONE” and that was on the 20th of February. Jennifer said something to the affect ... “She’s kind of plan B’d you”...

The only time I’ve tried to contact her since the 20th was earlier this week about my step son. She basically said the same thing... She’s DONE...

Should I be worried about her not trying to contact me?

I’m going to send my first letter to her work email tonight. She’ll have it in her “in-box” tomorrow when she gets to work. I was waiting for some clarification from Jennifer but I’m just going to send it.

Advice? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

don't send it....wait for Jennifers advice.....and BE STILL......

not2fun

Too late... I sent it. I posted Jennifers response... She said I could send it... so I did...

Bump... for advice.

Hey Amazin,

Has she called??? Any communication???

How are YOU doing???? That;s the real question.

not2fun

Nope... Nothing...Not a peep.

I sent the email last night. But She hasn't responded.

Should I worry? Like I said... It's like she's plan B'd me...

I guess I'm doing all right. I want my wife and family back. And I miss the companionship.

I took a break from my workout routine this week. I didn't run at all. I kind of felt like I was tired all week and my body needed a rest so I just didn't run. Next week... New story... I'm going to hit the gym hard... I want to keep up my workout routine, continue re-shaping my body and keep from getting depressed.

I borrowed a co-workers truck this weekend. I'm going to drive and pick my son up tomorrow. Since I have the truck all weekend I'm going to start looking for a couple of beds at the goodwill and used furniture stores.

I got my tax return back today... I paid off my credit card with the money... and I have a little left over. In some ways I feel guilty about filing seperatly... but on the other hand... she stuck me with paying the last $1900.00 off on her car... took my daughters bed with her and stuck me with a $170.00 long distance bill. So I don't feel that bad about it...(not to mention she's having an affair)

I was thinking I want another vehicle but I'm not sure if I should get one with a pending divorce... Any thoughts?

Amazin...

I hear ya on the companionship.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.

DO NOT BUY A CAR....

you do not need the burden right now....you just paid off your CC why would you bring on new debt??? What is wrong with the car you have now??? You should know better than to make ANY major decisions right now...and don't even go LOOKING at them, you are too vunerable.

Hmmm...you emailed it???? You really want my personal FEMALE opinion on this???

not2fun

Yes... I want your opinion...

I emailed it... Why? Is that a problem?

I have a gas saving 2 door junker that I drive 45 miles round trip to work 5 days a week...And a classic that I'm wanting to restore... but I kind of need something a little bigger that's dependable...

That's why I borrowed the truck this weekend. I don’t have anything that’s very big that I could put stuff in or haul anything with. (It’s kind of hard to put a lawn mower in a Ford Escort if you know what I mean) I'm not too worried about more debt... I'm doing pretty well financially right now. I don’t want to go hog wild and spend 20,000 on a new vehicle... more like 3000-5000 on something bigger that's dependable. I could pay that amount off in about 6-12 months...

I don’t ”need” another vehicle right now... It would just be nice... I can wait... Just wanted to know what ya’ll think...

Advice registered and filed...

Thanks Not2

Ok you asked for it....

No, emailing is not a problem if you are writing you friend, coworker, or neighbor, but for a LOVE letter, it should be a handwritten gesture. Emailing will not make or break the intent of your letter, but a handwritten on looks like you put time and energy to get her attention. Females like these little touches. I'm just sayin'..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />. Plus, when she first reads it, she will probably just roll her eyes and possibly delete it. Even if she doesn't delete it, she still has to get on a computer to re-read it, unless she takes the time out to print it, which in her current state of mind, she will not do.

But a handwritten one, she can pull out and look at anytime she begins to doubt what she is doing or when she has momentary feelings or thoughts of you...and I am betting, being a female myself...that she would re-read it.

It just makes it a little more personal in my book, plus it's not something that is done any more....

So, don't beat yourself up over this, you didn't know, but think about what I said, and hand write the next one and mail it to her....

not2fun

I just have to say this before I read what you said....

Tag you're it... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I just posted on your thread too...LOL

yeah...nothing like a "fun" friday night on the boards...... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

OK...I'm back....I had to go pick my daughter up at her friends house.

I see what you mean about sending a real letter... and not an email... WW never really told me where her Apt was... But I still know the address... Originally when I mentioned that to Jennifer she said it doesnt' matter what format... email, letter, etc... she just needs to be able to read it.

The next one I'll send as a real letter. I'll even put some of her favorite colone on it...

So...

I borrowed my co-workers truck for the weekend so I can pick up my son and his stuff. I went to bed early because I was getting up at 4:00 to drive 4 hours there and 4 hours back. At 11:00 last night the phone rings and wakes me up. My daughter answers it so I went back to sleep. It’s my step-daughter. She wants to know if WW’s father is here. She explains that WW’s father left a message on her phone and thought he might be staying here. My daughter say’s “no he’s not here, and I’m tired and going back to sleep.”

This morning I asked my daughter who called. She tells me and my wheels start turning. My suspicion is that WW saw the truck in the driveway and tried to use my SD to find out who was here. I figure I’ll never really know and just log it in my memory.

On the way home from picking up my son guess who calls my cell... Yep... WW calls. I saw it was her and didn’t answer it. I was having a good time with the kids and didn’t want to spoil it. So then she text messages me...”Please Call”...

So when I stopped for gas I call. And our conversation went something like this.


WW: Did you cancel me off the insurance?

Me: No why?

WW: Because I keep getting stuff in the mail from the insurance company.

Me: Well they know that we’re separated. I told them that I was going to drop you after your car was paid off. They said that you could get insurance with them after that if you so desired. Did they send it to my address or yours? (Of course I know I didn’t give them her new address)

WW: Let me see. Oh they did send it to your address. Ok.. I was just wondering. Did my dad call and leave a message on your phone?

Me: No why?

WW: Well he called and left a strange message. Something about sitting next to a pretty girl. I thought he might have stopped at your house on his way to Florida.

Me: Nope he didn’t call and he’s not at my house.

WW: So did you get a new truck?

Me: No... Why would you ask that?

WW: I saw the white truck in your driveway last night and though my dad may have gotten a new truck. I thought he might have gotten a new truck and that was his in your driveway.(The truck in my driveway has FL plates on it... He’s not from FL... or a resident)

Me: Oh, my co-worker and I traded vehicles for the weekend. She’s got my gas saver and I have her truck. While I have it I’m going to get my oldest daughter a new bed.

WW: Oh OK. Well SD isn’t using the top half of her bunk bed. You can have it if you want it.

Me: Well thank you. I appreciate that. It keeps me from having to buy another one.


Hmmm....I find it funny ... “did you drop me off the insurance”... “Did my dad call” Excuses just to call me and snoop...LOL


She’s keeping tabs on me... I think she knows exactly whose truck was in my driveway last night ... She called to see if I was messing around with my co-worker... Or she really did think I bought a new truck...LOL... either way I think it’s funny that she called.

I was surprised that she offered the bed to me... Should I take her up on it? I need two beds and that will allow me to only have to buy one.

Amazin....

Gosh wasn't that a very hard, long wait???? and congradulate yourself on not cracking first. And yep, she is checking up on YOU.....ha ha ha...that is funny.

Ok, the bed is up to you. I would probably take it, so you don't have to buy one. But that would be me...

Back to some more Plan A stuff.......

not2fun

Well I went to the thrift store and bought a bed and a used box spring/mattress set... It's a nice twin 4 post bed (queen anne style) ... They had another one and I'm thinking about getting it too just because I would like a matching set...

I might take WW up on her bed too... She said it's outside behind her apt. wrapped in plastic. I told her that wasn't good for furniture. It will warp the wood. Originally she was going to leave it for my daughter. Then 4 days after she moved out she changed her mind because her daughter needed a bed for her friends to sleep in when they stayed the night... Makes me wonder if she just wanted to take it to be a B*tch since it’s been sitting outside ever since she picked it up.


Hmmm ... let me think... 10 days since she said she doesn't want to see me any more ... LOL

I was thinking ... Maybe I should text her and tell her thanks again for offering the bed... and see when Its available...

add something sweet like "it was nice to hear your voice"

I was going to post this on another thread... but It's much more approapriate here...

Even with all the hurt and anger that I feel...and even with all the unknowns about how this will end ... I have this strange feeling in the back of my head that my WW’s affair may end up being the best thing that has happened to me and my wife. (Is that strange? Do ya’ll feel that way sometimes?) In short ... I have this feeling (intuition maybe?) that when this is over my wife and I will be closer than we ever have been... (Again...Is that strange? Do ya’ll feel that way sometimes?) I have this feeling that no matter which way this turns out, It’s going to be a positive for me and I’ll be better off ... I have a confidence that I’ll be ok and everything will be alright... It’s like I have calmness about me... (Maybe that’s just me “being still”)

Is it strange for me to feel that way or is it normal?

Of course some days I'm more confident than others... Maybe this is just one of those days.

Honestly I've had that feeling, wish it would always stick around though. It's fleeting for me. Somedays ARE better than others.

This is an auto insurance question for anyone with knowledge or expiernce here.

OK...So I borrow my friends truck this weekend to pick up my son. I'm backing out of a parking space and bump into another vehicle.

Who's insurance covers it? Mine or my friends?

Yes it's been a long weekend... I've been stressing about it all weekend and feel like crap that this happened. My friend has been real nice about it so far but if it's her insurance then she might not be so cool about it.... and if there's no coverage at all because she's not in the vehicle... I'm gonna freak....I really don't need this right now...

your friends insurance covers it.

Thanks MEDC,

I got the same answer from my insurance company. I really don't want her insurance to go up. My friend said that she talked to her insurance company and if the damage is more than $750.00 then it's going to go up. I'm really bummed out about it...

Get a quote.

You don't HAVE to file an insurance claim. Simply pay for the damage.

If its just a bump -- hopefully it won't be outrageous.

Insurance follows the vehicle not the driver!

You have 3 options

1) Get an estimate from the repair facility where SHE would want it repaired and pay for the entire claim out of your own pocket.... This is the most responsible option, but may not be affordable to you?

2) Turn in a claim with her insurance company and you pay for her deductible.... this is also a good option but may cause her rates to go up if she has a sh!tty insurance company.

3) Let her pay for all the repairs herself and tell her sorry about her bad luck.... not so good!

It does make the day go downhill quickly, when these things happen. Hope you find a way to smile through it all.

Thanks Lexxy, TST,

I'm probably going to pay out of my own pocket... My friends vehicle is easy... $70.00 for a busted tail light assembly.

The other guy's car.... not so easy. He's a little leary of doing anything without the insurance company involved. I talked to him today and he said he already got 3 estimates... $2000.00 to fix... OUCH... That hurts...I just paid off my credit card too...

But I think the right thing to do is to pay for it out of my pocket... My friends insurance won't go up and the other person will get their car fixed. It sucks... but it's still the right thing to do...

WW sends me an email today wanting to know what it is that I wanted to know about the insurance. (I had a question for her so I called and left a message yesterday.) So instead of emailing her back I called to ask her a question about our insurance and how she handled another auto insurance situation about 2 years ago. She was actually nice. I was freaking out about the insurance and she was telling me “don’t worry about it” ... “It’s just a car” ...“Things will work out” It actually felt like a normal conversation with her...


She asked if her daughter could come over and spend the weekend with us. Of course I said yes... (She said that she has to do her community service this weekend.) Then she said “oh I almost forgot, SD has a dentist appointment on Saturday, I’ll have to cancel that.” I said...”I can just take her. It’s not that big of a deal, I have to make an appointment for my son anyway. Maybe I can take both of them at the same time.”


So I call her back later and ask her what time SD’s dentist appointment is at. She’s tells me... We chit chat for a couple of minutes about the insurance, my co-worker and how she’s acting pretty cool about this whole thing etc... So then I tell her thanks for listening and calming me down on the phone earlier.... Then out of no where... the fog rolls in... She starts getting ugly and says something like this.

Well it just goes to show you.... you need to watch who’s throat your cutting.”

Well go figure... I knew she couldn’t be nice for too long... she already offered me the bunk bed on Saturday. That was a shock to me when she did that. Then being nice this morning... another surprise...

And now back to our regularly scheduled program.... As the world turns... LOL


Well it’s been a stressful and hectic couple of days...

I picked my son up on Saturday... His mother is really pissing me off... But... I’m being real calm... When she called last Monday she said her husband broke her nose... That’s why she wanted me to come get him... because she’s leaving her husband... So I drive the 4 hours to get there. When I walk in the house... I sure don’t see any evidence of a broken nose... nothing... no swelling, no bruising, no black around the eyes... nothing... So then I see my son... He’s dyed his hair black as coal and bleached the hair on the back of his head blonde... and he has a lip ring.... Ok... I’m tolerant ... I don’t say anything... But you need to picture me here... I look like a Marine Corps Drill Sergeant. (Yes... High and tight hair cut... I’m wearing desert tan combat boots and a Marine Corps style eight point cover with my civilian clothes... the whole nine yards...) I just want to get his stuff and get back on the road. So I go up to his room to see what he has packed. (Yep... NOTHING...) When I go in his room guess what I find... His girl friend!!!... OK... I’m still calm... Breathe... Don’t lose you’re cool...

So later I’m talking to the ex...

She says: “Please get him a haircut.”

I say: “That’s not the only thing that’s going to change... Why did you let him get a lip ring?”

She says :”Oh he just showed up like that the day me and my husband got married.”

I say: “Do you let his girlfriends sleep overnight in his room?”

She says: Oh, I didn’t give him permission to do that either. He just did it. I didn’t know about it until this morning.”


My ex wife is about as useless as tits on a bull when it comes to being a responsible parent... That’s why I’m so disgusted with her... How about ... “BE THE PARENT FOR A CHANGE”

Oh and the kicker to the whole thing ... She tells me she's not separating from this guy even though he's (supposedly)an alcoholic who beats her.


I finished my daughter’s room. It has light blue walls, white trim, dark blue drapery, and a new bed with a dark blue bedspread. It turned out really nice and the daughter loves it. I felt good about doing it and getting it done. My son’s room is next.

So I call the dentist today to get my son a dental appointment for an exam and cleaning. They say there’s an opening at 1:00 today so I take it. On the way to the dentist I ask my son to take out his lip ring before he gets to the dentist. He does and I explain how much better he looks. I ask him to leave it out and he does... (We’ll see how long that lasts.) Then I ask him...“when was the last time your mom (my ex wife) took you to the dentist?” He says 2 or 3 years ago... I’m so disgusted with that woman. I’ve got great insurance... Pretty much would cost her next to nothing to take him...but she hasn’t in 2 or 3 years... That’s just plain lazy and incompetent.

After the dentist I take him to eat. We go to Applebee’s for a burger. It was excellent... We walk out of the restaurant and walk into the shop next door....a hair cutting salon. To make a long story short (Pardon the pun) He got his hair cut. He was mad about it... but he got it cut... The lady cutting his hair tried to run a comb through the back... it wouldn’t go through... It was like it was matted. I asked him if he was trying to grow dreadlocks and he said in a very disgruntled tone “no” The lady said his hair was pretty damaged and that even if he wanted to keep it long it would be screwed up. After we got his hair cut he said something about this that I’ve never heard before... something about his hair was like that because of his girlfriend... (Anyone ever heard of this?) I’m not sure exactly what he meant. On the ride home we had a talk and I told him how much better he looked. And I told him I know he’s upset about his hair... but... hair grows back... and I explained how much it meant to me for him to set a good example for his sisters since they watch every move he makes ... He was ok with that...

Like I said... Long hectic weekend... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Oh... I almost forgot about school... I was trying to get him registered for school today...

Of course this is how it goes...

New school: In order to register your son you need his birth certificate, his transcripts, an official document from his old school stating he’s been withdrawn, immunization record, etc...

Me: Ok... Don’t you order the transcripts, proof of withdrawal, and immunization records from his old school?

New School: No you have to get those and we won’t even schedule an appointment to register him if you don’t have his immunization records.

Me: Ok, I’ll call his old school and get everything then call you back to schedule the appointment...

Next call to his old school.

Old School: If you want his transcripts you’ll have to withdraw him first. Just drop by and fill out this paperwork...Bla bla bla..

Me: No I’m not... I’m 4 hours away... I’m not coming to do that...

Old School: Oh... I see... then his new school will have to send us a request on letterhead requesting his transcripts, the withdrawal, and his shot record...

Me: they said the wont do that... I have to do it...

Old school: Oh... sounds like somebody just doesn’t want to do their job...

Yes... I had to be very patient.... I really had to bite my tongue today... I hate incompetence.

This will be my son’s 5th high school... and his 7th school since 2002 when he moved in with his mother. I’m supposed to be the one in the military who moves all the time... He’s so sick of changing schools... I think he’s really ready for some stability... I’m amazed that he’s turned out as good as he has.... He’s smart as a whip... scored a 25 on the ACT test. I think he just needs some guidance and some responsible parenting.

You sound like a WONDERFUL dad.

And the women you pick sound like there is something lacking. Have you ever looked into that?

Well... Yes... I think I've made a couple of bad choices when it comes to my mates....

How would I look into that?

I don't think I would have married my first wife if she hadn't gotten pregnant... As a matter of fact I think she lied to me and told me she couldn't get pregnant... then guess what... Yep... she got pregnant right away... I didn't marry her for the right reasons... I felt obligated...

Current wife... not true... I asked her to marry me because I was in LOVE with her...And because of that maybe I didn't want to see the negative stuff.(Love is blind right?) I think I had some un-realistic naive expectations about marriage too ... You know... The Fairy Tale Syndrome... "And they lived happily ever after" ...

It takes work and not just love...

Is that what you meant when you asked if I've looked into that?

I think the reason I like you so much Amaz .... is you are a thinker .... you take in information and process it .... and you are doing that constantly

I like that about you !

I was only reading about your first wife and noticing the drastic difference in the two of you.

And your current wife isn't exactly winning the wife of the year award.

Just wondering if you have ever looked into why you choose who you do.

I used to think I had a bum magnet, until I realized that I was CHOOSING the wrong men.

Thanks Pep...

You know why I like you?

Because you're Fabulicious! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

And you've been giving me great honest advice with a tender heart... even when I didn't want to hear what you were saying... Thank you for that...

I had a good cry with my oldest sister yesterday...

I'm the youngest of 11. My sister said that I was a real blessing to my parents. Since I'm the youngest some of my older siblings saw that but I probably didn't see it or undertand that until recently...

My dad was an alcoholic who was also bi-polar. And about the time that I came along he had been hospitalized and was recovering. My sister said that my mother was a very strong woman and she had gone thought the fire... She delt with a lot of the same stuff I'm dealing with now...

Anyway the blessing part... My sister said that I was the child that my dad really got to be a "father" to. She said she saw how he really connected with me and related to me. By the time we got done talking and praying we were both reaching for the tissues. I'm so glad she called yesterday! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Believer... I think I'm a combination of Mr. Fix-it and the Knight in shinning armor....

The Mr.Fix-it Shinning Knight....LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I seem to be attracted to the women who need help or fixing...

Not a good thing huh....

"Believer... I think I'm a combination of Mr. Fix-it and the Knight in shinning armor...."

That is a WONDERFUL combination. Don't sell yourself short.

You are still new in this. There is lots of hope.

If things don't work out, we can worry about how you pick your wives. But our MB men always do just fine.

Amazin,

Amazin job with the son, BTW. Good for you and it sounds like you did all this in a kind but loving manner. He'll thank you one day...

Don't you just LOVE the fog??? Makes me want to never go anywhere near Seattle....lol.

At least it sounds like you and WS at least got some Good Plan A conversation there, until the end....hopefully, you just let it roll off your back....

I'd like to say I could help you in the woman department, but heck, what do I know??? Not much of anything...lol

Anyway, you title??? You need to change it to "Guiding Light", because that is what you are supposed to be right now.....lol...

Aren't we all glad to see my sense of humor returning...? Better than my "blonde" moments....lol

Keep up the good work...

not2fun

I LIKE IT!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Amazin.....

Glad you do....I thought it was kind of funny....

How's it going today??? Me,,,,I'm good...my "stillness" is returning....yeah.........

What are you doing for you today????

not2fun

I still love the "Guiding Light" Idea...

I left work early again today... I had to get my son registered for school... I know he feels so much better after talking to the school counselor...

His other school wouldn't take all his credits from his other old school...(Are ya confused yet?...LOL) So they were telling him he had to take a full load of classes, pass them all... and maybe he might graduate....

The counselor at this school... really cool.... she said he really only needs 2 classes to graduate... His other school wouldn't take anything...

So I know he feels much better without that hanging over his head... And he is so smart.... this is what he told the vice principle... "I just need some stability" Just like I said... and he said it to the priciple... how smart...And he's a good kid too...

Well ... I'm going to relax and go for a ride in my Bronco... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Amazin-thanks for the kind words on my thread. I really appreciate it! I was reading some of your thread and trying to get caught up a little!

I LOVE the Guiding Light idea...very good Not2!

No problem LaLa... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I really enjoyed that post... good job!

Well... get caught up...


Just don't get "caught up"...(In the drama of my soap opra... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />) if you know what I mean... LOL

Well I sent an email to WW from work today... I asked about the bunk bed and when she was planning on bringing it. I also asked her if SD was comming over this weekend. I havn't heard anything from her yet. I'm debating if I should call her. If she backs out of the bed that's going to irritate me because I had a truck last weekend and I could have gotten one then. It wouldn't suprize me if she does back out though... It would just irritate me...

My son seems to be doing great... but he keeps putting that damn lip ring back in... He said something to me in a joking manner the other day... It went something like this...

"Dad doesn't like me the way I am..."

Of course my response...

"I like you the just the way God made you son...I don't think you like yourself ... other wise you wouldn't be changing your hair color and putting hunks of metal in your face." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Even though I said it in a joking manner... I think there's some truth to it.... It made him think about it....LOL

Believer,

I was thinking about this a little today... My first wife is very irresposible and dependent...

My current wife seems to be at the opposite end... very independent ... and responsible... (Too independent for her own good if you ask me...LOL)

I've had counselors say that sometimes when you leave a bad relationship you look for qualities in your next mate that your former mate didn't have or was lacking in... sometimes to the extreme.

It kind of seems like that's what I did... went from one exteme to the other...Maybe... Maybe not... Just an observation...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have a feeling that something’s up with WW.... I’m not sure what ... Just intuition I guess.

I haven’t been keeping a real close eye on my wife like I was a month ago. But I have sensed a change in her routine lately. Last weekend I think she spent the whole weekend with her female friend. (The Cheating Bimbo that I can’t stand) The weekend before that... Same thing... WW, SD and the friend all went snow tubing on Saturday and then they spent the night at the female friend’s house... (I’m not absolutely sure... but about 95% percent sure that’s what happened. And I don’t know if the OM was with them at any time.)

The weekend before that... (February 16th & 17th) SD Spent the weekend at my house and WW was at the female friends house on Friday night and Saturday... Saturday night... she may have been with OM... Sunday morning I saw her car at his Apt...That’s the last time I know for a fact they were together... I haven’t caught his car at her apt in about 3 weeks. And I haven't seen her car at his place since the 17th.

I saw her car at an AA meeting that is right across the street from his apt about a week – 10 days ago... but she was parked in the AA parking lot and not his Apt parking lot like she usually is.

Recently she seems to be spending a lot of time with her female friend. And I’ve noticed she’s been getting home late in the evening... even on weekdays. I’m not sure if she’s still going to AA regularly... And I’m not sure she’s going to the Sunday Church service that is followed by and AA meeting. She might be but I’m not sure...

Plus she surprised me this week with a couple of nice gestures after she said she wanted a divorce 2 weeks ago.

Anyway... I’m wondering if she’s just being more discrete... She’s not seeing OM right now... she’s seeing another OM...

I just got a feeling something’s up...But I may be reading way too much into nothing...

Any thoughts??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Anyone???

Amazin....

uhmmm...who cares??? what are you doing for YOU today???

Seriously though, I would wonder too much whether "they" are on or off...just keep up your Plan A.....

Hows everything else??? How's the transistion going with the son????

not2fun

Ya... I guess you're right... It doesn't do me any good obsessing about her or anything that I don't have control over... Maybe I'm just lonely...I dunno...

What am I doing for me?... well I've kind of put myself on the back burner since picking up my son and all... I haven't been to the gym in two weeks... (But you’re body needs a rest every now and then) I'm going to go today maybe ... and definitely next week. I need to write another letter to the wife. I’ve been kind of busy with my kids so I haven’t written the next one yet.

How’s the transition going? Great... Having my son move back in with me was definitely the right thing to do. I feel good about it. We went to register him for school on Tuesday. He’s such a good kid and really smart... We had to talk to the Vice Principal. She asked him a question about why he was moving in with me... He said he just needed some stability. (I was surprised at the maturity of his answer and that he “Gets It”.) When he transferred to his old school in December they didn’t accept all of his classes for graduation credit. He had to take 7 classes and pass all of them in order to graduate. He said none of the teachers or counselors at his old school thought he would graduate this year. .When we went to see the counselor on Tuesday she couldn’t understand why they did that... After she re-adjusted his credits ... he only has to take 2 classes to graduate.... I know he felt soooo much better after talking to the guidance counselor and being able to graduate this year. I’m sure he felt like that was hanging over his head before. Now he can start college next fall. I talked to him last night. He’s glad that he’s here... And it’s kind of funny... He actually said he’s getting use to his short hair and he’s probably going to leave it that way. (I’m so glad because he looks sooo much better)

Since I had to use my friends truck last weekend I started thinking I need a different vehicle... Something that I can get all my kids in, still haul and tow with ... an all purpose vehicle. Extended cab pickup...

My current car is just a cheep Junker that I bought to drive back and forth from work. 2 months after I bought it (with cash) I got in a hit and run accident. I never got the car fixed because I only had liability and they wanted $2500 to fix it. (I only paid 3000 for it) So now it has 166,000 miles on it. It’s a gas saver that’s paid for itself 3 times over.

So I start looking at trucks on the internet earlier this week. I happen to find one that’s got low miles, 4x4, extended cab, and cheap... (My kind of vehicle.) I looked at it yesterday... they make me a great offer... so last night I call my bank to see about a loan... It usually takes 28-48 business hours... They approve me over the phone...

So I get the check today and go by the dealership. The truck isn’t ready and they tell me to come back tomorrow. As I’m driving home I’m thinking to myself ....”Do I really want to buy a vehicle right now? It’s not too late to change my mind... I haven’t given them the check yet.” Then I think...”Well maybe I just need to let God show me what to do... Maybe he’ll give me a small sign if I ask him... I hope I see it... (My Faith is small and this goes back to the message about listening to God and his plan for us... I’m listening lord...)

About 5 minutes later guess what... my gas saving Junker gets an exhaust leak... It gets really loud... embarrassingly loud... People are staring at me it’s so loud... I got this big smile on my face... I’m just keep driving like it’s not even there...

I said a small sign lord...not a 2x4... LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

lol that even put a smile on my face! Good for you and good riddance to the cheep junker! I guess if nothing comes up between now and the time the truck is ready, it's probably got your name written on it!

Glad I could put a smile on your face...

As I was driving home I had this big grin on my face... I'd stop at a light.... rev the engine... look over at the car next to me... Smile... Wave... and act like nothing was wrong...Then take off with a ROAR... I just kept smiling...

LOL... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Amazin,

That cracks me up....Don't ya wish He was giving us CLEAR signs on what to do with our WS???

How's everything else going????

not2fun

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> the harder the head the harder the 'hit' I guess <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Funny you should say that.... My nickname should be lumpy... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I got lumps and bumps going all the way back to childhood...

Yes I have a hard head.... All of my family was born in Missouri... Have you ever heard of a Missurra Mule? I'm even worse... I'm so stubborn I refused to come out of the womb until my parents moved out of the state...LOL

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

HEY NOW....I take exception to that comment..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Not2....Exactly my point...LOL


See what kind of stubborn mules come from Missurra...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I didn't know you were from MO Not2... Whar abouts?

My parents were originally from a little town in N.E. MO. The moved to IA right before I was born...

All of my siblings live in those two states...

Born and breed (but I ain't no mule....lol)

st. louis area.....

MIZ!!!

ZOU!!!


We bleed black and gold here, although bball season has been rough for a several years now. . .

What an interesting weekend!

My wife was supposed to let me know on Friday if my stepdaughter was going to come over for the weekend. She blew me off. I didn’t hear from her all weekend. Supposedly she had to go do her court ordered community service. I doubt she did.

It was my son’s 18th birthday on Saturday. I took him to the dentist Saturday morning and he got his first 2 fillings. They must have been really small because they didn’t even numb him up. After that we went and got the truck from the dealership. I had him drive it about an hour back home while I drove my gas saving Junker. I was kind of nervous because he’s only had his license for about 2 months, he’s not familiar with this area, and it was raining real badly on the way home. But we made it just fine. After we got home I decided to take him and his sisters out to eat. He said he loves Chinese food so I took him to a special restaurant about an hour away… It’s a big Chinese buffet that also has Mongolian BBQ and a sushi bar. It has all sorts of stuff there, all you can eat crab legs, crawfish, and salmon, etc… you name it they have it… We pigged out until our stomachs bulged…A good time was had by all…

There was a lot of rain and wind this weekend. So when we get home there was a 60 ft blue spruce that had blown over in my yard. It took out my phone line and was lying across my driveway. I have no phone or internet at home right now and the phone company isn’t going to fix it until Wednesday. And I was thinking the huge tree in my driveway is going to cost me $$$ to get it cut up and removed… Bummer…

So Sunday morning we go to church. It’s the first time I’ve been in about a month. The theme of the sermons for the next few weeks is “Open Doors.” I received several messages from the sermon and I’m glad I went.

The theme scripture is Revelation 3:8 “Behold, I have put before you an open door which no one can shut…”

Here are a couple of the scriptures that ministered to me…

Ephesians 4:17-19

“With the Lord’s authority let me say this: Live (walk) no longer as the ungodly do, for they are hopelessly confused. Their closed minds are full of darkness; they are far away from the life of God because they have shut their minds and hardened their hearts against him. They don’t care anymore about right and wrong, and they have given themselves over to immoral ways. Their lives are filled with all kinds of impurity and greed.”

Ephesians 5:25

“Husbands, go all out in your love for your wives, exactly as Christ did for the church – a love marked by giving, not getting.”

Ephesians 5:11-13

“Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. But everything exposed by the light becomes visible…

The Message:

On this side of the door you are saying… You don’t care about right and wrong:

On the other side of the door – God says you will --- walk circumspectly:
(Circumspect = watchful and discreet; cautious; prudent.)

Ephesians 5:15

“See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise.”

The preacher went on to say “When you walk through that door God doesn’t just bless you… his blessing spreads beyond you to others.”

Deuteronomy 28:2

“All these blessings will come down on you and spread out beyond you because you have responded to the Voice of God your God.”

At the end of the service the preacher asked if there was anyone who was ready to walk through that door.

I went forward and gave my life to Christ.

After Church we went home and guess what…. My neighbor had cut up the huge tree and removed it from my driveway.

Thank you for that Lord!

This is AWESOME Amazin! Welcome to the Kingdom! Life won't always be a bowl of cherries but when you live your life in devotion to the Lord, your perspective tends to change about things. I'll keep you and yours in my prayers.

Amazin.....

This is WONDERFUL news.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Good for you....Now THAT, my friend, is a POWERFUL change for you....

not2fun

Hey Amazin, how ya doing? You slipped back to the 2nd page so I'm bumping you back to the first.

I'm doing great!

Just busy at work... And I don't have internet access at home right now.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I haven’t heard from my WW since the 7th. She was supposed to let me know if my step daughter was coming over for the weekend. And she said she was going to let me have the bunk bed back that she took. Of course she blew me off…

I don’t think she’s going to AA any more… or seeing the OM that she met at AA… but I’m not sure about that… It wouldn’t surprise me if she’s already moved on to a second OM. She wasn’t at home the whole weekend again. (Makes me wonder what she’s been doing with her daughter for the weekends?) Her female friend’s car was parked at the WW’s apt all weekend… I’m sure they’re probably both wh*ring around together… She doesn’t seem to ever be at her apt… It seems like the step daughter is there by herself most of the time. Oh well… I’m sure I’ll have a pretty good idea what she’s up to sooner or later… she’s not very discrete.

My youngest daughter is playing in the championship basketball game tonight! I’m sure she’s exited. The next sport is track and field… Practice has already started. I’m going to start going to a men’s study group at church on Thursday’s and my kids are going to the youth service on Wednesday’s. My oldest daughter isn’t too exited about it but the other two kids seem to be ok with it.

I know I shouldn’t obsess about my wayward wife but I miss her… and my step-daughter. It’s hard not to think about them…

I'm a super snooper...

I waited in an indiscrete location to see which way my wife went after work... I followed and lost her immediately... so I turned around and found her car at Dunkin Donuts.... Again I waited in a discrete location to see which way she went.... I followed and lost her immediately again.... then saw her car driving through an apartment parking lot. I turned around and gave her some time to get where she was going and saw where she was parked...

It’s not the same apt that the first OM was living at...A totally new apt complex... 2 minutes from her work... Could be a co-worker... or possibly her AA sponsor... or even a new OM...

At least I have some idea where she’s going... And hopefully I’ll find out if she’s seeing a second OM or not... If she is....It’s really going to hurt me...

If she’s with a second OM ... I don’t know if I’ll want to try and save the marriage...I may just let her go...

Her car's still at this new Apt complex... If it's there until 10 tonight I would have a hard time believing it's something other than OM #2... Her female friend's car is at the WW's Apt...

I'm anxious to find out...

still here following your posts..... for a few different reasons i haven't kept mine up... i don't have any advice for you but you and your family are in my thoughts and prayers

hugs to you all from the baby and i.

Thanks Snuggles...

Her car's still there and it'a about 10 PM... I'm seriously depressed now...

Amazin...

Snap out of it.....there are many good things going on in your life right now....your son, your new truck, your home repair....oh,, and lets not forget the most important thing....GOD SAVED YOU THIS WEEKEND....

So cheer up, your life is not too shabby right now....

Good thinking on the men's bible study....I think you will like it....

not2fun

I know... but I still love my wife and it hurts to see this... I really can't comprehend how someone can be so indifferent to another persons feelings...

It's so selfish that it disgutsts me...

Maybe I should start thinking about Plan B. If I keep seeing her going from man to man I think I'm going to end up hating her...

I went to church tonight for the men’s study group. But... they didn't have it. Instead they had a special guest speaker that had been advertised on the local Christian radio station....Dr. Dave Stoop and Dr. Jan Stoop. They both have PhD’s in psychology and have been married for 50 years.

He's written several books on various subjects like forgiveness, marriage, relationships... etc...

His most recent book was written by him and his wife and it’s called ...Better Than Ever: Seven Secrets to Making a Good Marriage Great.

Everything that they said was right in line with marriage builder’s principles. It was a well spent hour and a half.

Here’s a link to New Life Ministries... Click on Dave Stoop near the top of the page to see some of his books... Seems like a good resource.


http://www.newlife.com/

I go to get a new Military I.D. card today. While I'm there I ask about medical/dental benefits for my dependants. I specifically ask about what age they stop getting them. They told me 21. I was surprised because I thought it was 18.

My WW’s son is 20 and still listed as a dependant. He’s living with my Mother in Law in another state. I’m pretty sure he needs some dental work. So as a nice gesture I send my MIL an email letting her know that he’s still covered on my insurance if she wants to take him to the dentist. I gave her my phone number and email address at home so she could contact me if she needed help with anything. I also sent a carbon copy to my WW.

I got no response from either of them. The whole time my wife and I were together she had a real big issue with me talking to her family. She would get livid if I called her mom or brother. So when she saw that I sent her mom an email I’m sure the phone was ringing on both ends.... LOL

I did get an email then a phone call from WW at about 4:00 today. She said nothing about the email and wanted to know if my SD could come over on Sunday. Of course I said yes... Then I asked if she got the email I sent her mom.... She said yes... I asked about the bunk bed... She’s reneging on the bed. Her female friend wants it... I’m sure it’s a bunch of bull and she’s just being a butt head.

The whole conversation was very short and to the point... It felt... forced??? Or maybe Fake.... Like we were being nice when we really didn’t want to... or we just didn’t want to talk to each other but were doing it because we had to... I felt real uncomfortable talking to her. Is that strange? Or is that normal?

Oh well... Se la vie.

It wouldn’t surprise me if she doesn’t bring the step daughter over at all... and doesn’t call or anything else... just blows me off again.

Wow... That was a long outage of the message board...And it stunk...LOL

I think I was having withdrawls... Hmmm ... Is there a twelve step program for the MB message board? ....LOL

I hear that! I found myself kinda melancholy and I couldn't figure out what it was... then it hit me. Boom... no MB's for a week! LOL

I wasn't melancholy but there were a few times when I could have used some good advice... I missed you guys and I need ya!

Amazin.....

Hey you....what's going on??? Yes, I think we were all in withdrawls.....anyway, update us on you sitch...lets see where you are....

not2fun

Hey YOU???? Oh no no no... that won't do...LOL I need an update from your situation first...I was all into your situation and then bam.... It was like reading a book only to find out the last page is missing... LOL


I'll update ... there's lots to tell... But we're all waiting to hear from you....

no honey, it wasn't the last page, not by a long shot.....try being in the middle of it all, and all your learning going out the door and no VETS to talk to....it's been rough....

I know... I felt so bad for you... Maybe the book analagy wasn't exaclty what I ment... more like the power went off right in the middle of the movie...

Come on now! No more foolin'! UPDATES!! You and NOT2 are holding out on us... bad enough having the withdrawls and then to log back on and get teased like this not smart on your part let me tell you that!! ;=P

TAG...YOU'RE IT.....

I posted mine...now its your turn....

Hmmm where to start... How about where I left off.... LOL

Saturday March 15th. WW calls me in the morning... She said she called because her ex was harassing her about SD. She said he’s been sending text messages to her repeating exactly what the custody order says. She said she called to ask me if I think he’s done anything legally to take her back to court or enforce the order. (The order states she must return to his state as soon as I’m no longer in the military or if we are no longer married) So he’s making sure she knows it and may have to move back. I’m pretty sure it was just an excuse to call and feel me out. She wanted to know if SD to come over on Sunday the 16th so she could spend some time with my daughter before her foot surgery. She also wanted me to talk to SD about her dad and try and make a connection. I talked to her a little when she was here... I didn’t try and force anything or make her feel like I was putting her in the middle. (Her mom and dad do that enough.) But one bit of interesting information did come out from my talk with SD. WW and her OM broke up about 3 weeks ago...LOL

Tuesday March 18th. I get a call in the morning from WW asking me to call SD to wish her well and let her know everything will be all right. Of course I was planning on doing that anyway so I did. I also got some flowers and had them delivered with a nice card and a picture of all of us and another picture of our feet....LOL (Foot surgery ... get it...) I had it delivered to her apartment ... so now she knows that I know where she lives.

Friday March 21st. WW’s 20 year old son calls me... He’s been in jail... We have a long talk and I tried to encourage him to change his ways before it’s too late. He says he’s always liked me and will always consider me his step-dad no matter what happens between me and WW. That made me feel real good.

Saturday March 22nd. WW calls me in the morning. She’s upset and highly pissed off... SOMEONE has poured sugar in her gas tank... No it’s not me... It’s the alcoholic OM... He’s just following the script ... Love Busting on her... Of course I play stupid... “Aw honey... who would do that to you?” This catches her off guard and she immediately say’s “oh... I got to go... I’ll call you back”... LOL.... It was like all of the sudden she remembered she can’t tell me about this OM ... so she had to get off the phone so she could fabricate a lie about who did it and why...She calls back spews some more lies... then has the balls to ask me to pay to get her car fixed... I told her NO! And that I had a $2000 bill from my fender bender and I didn’t have the money to pay for it... She got pissed at me.... started spewing about how I always put other people ahead of the family... and that I continue to cut her throat... blah blah blah....I asked her why she couldn’t put it on her credit card that has a $10,000 credit limit? She said she lowered the limit, used it to move out, and that it’s maxed out... (I’ll bet it’s maxed out at 10,000) I told her the best I could do is let her borrow my Junker for a couple of days until she gets her car fixed.

Sunday March 23rd Well my suspicions are confirmed... She’s got another OM... I go out for an early morning Easter drive... I go past her house on the way back home... In her driveway is her female friend’s car... She’s sitting on a man’s lap and got her tongue half way down his throat... It’s a new OM... it’s safe to assume that the first OM found out about this new OM and then put the sugar in her tank... Well I guess you reap what you sow...I’ll give this guy a month or two before they’re Love Busting on each other just like the first guy... and then.... OM #3?

Who knows... I’ll be in plan B by then...

It hurts to see her do this but at the same time... It’s almost comical to see her wallow in the mess she’s made of her life ... Then act like everything is peachy keen... She’s starting to see the beginning of cracks in her fantasy world... but she still act’s like nothing is wrong...

Hugs to you..... i thought about all you guys while the board was out..... i wish you had had better news but me and the little one are here with you.

Thanks Snuggles... I've missed everyone here too and I've been thinking about you...

Hope things are alright for you... give us an update.

Amazin....

So how is church and the bible study going???

Nice story you got going there. So, have you figured out your boundaries yet??? Where is your limit????

This crap is so hard, I just hate it....I am so ready to be out of the mayhem....

Anyway, the poor VETS are probably scatching their heads trying to figure out who to post and help first....

as long as we can get back to normal right???

Church is great... Here's the message from the 16th...It really ministered to me...

Proverbs 18:21 "Words kill, words give life; they’re either poison or fruit – you choose.”

Ephesians 4:29 “Say only what helps, each word a gift.” “Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.”

The pastor bottomed lined it this way... “Speak the TRUTH...Make your Yes mean Yes and your No mean No! “ When you speak the truth you set boundaries.


My oldest brother called that day... Everything that comes out of his mouth is positive, encouraging and uplifting ... so I had to share this message with him... that he is a blessing to me because of his words....


So... to answer your question about boundaries... No... I haven't figured out my boundaries...LOL.... My limit? for??? How long I'm going to stay in plan A? Ummm I dunno... I'll know when its time to go to plan B.... I don't think Plan A will continue until June 1st. She seems to have set that date as a day to decide if we're going to get back together.... or continue to be separated... I think I'll be in plan B before then.

For several years our church had a "Kid's Sermon" one Sunday per month. These were just short, 5 minute messages given to the kids as they gathered around just before being sent off to their respective Sunday school classes. I delivered many of these messages, usually some simple object lesson.

One that several parents commented on (of course I would never speak directly to the parents...) was one in which I had the kids take turns squeezing the toothpaste from a huge tube onto a paper plate. Some of the older (10/11 y/o) kids worked on it to get every single bit of the stuff out.

The premise was that now we would perform a magic trick and put all of the toothpaste back into the tube...

But of course there were no magic words or actions that could do that...

Just like we can't take back what we have said after we say it. Once our words are spoken, they are forever out here...



Now...Amazin, how much more are you going to put up with on this? OM#3? What will it take, OM#27? 30? How far is too far? Get your Plan B plans finalized and be done with this drama...

Mark